Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19148

1 Wednesday, 9 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in a language that

11 you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, yes, I

13 can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution?

16 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Nicholas Koumjian, Ann Sutherland,

17 assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager, Your Honours, good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you. Any news

19 about --

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we haven't heard anything, no.


22 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

23 MS. BARUCH: Good morning, Your Honour. Barbara Baruch assisted

24 by Aleksandar Vujic for the defence.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman is all right?

Page 19149

1 MS. BARUCH: He's okay, Your Honour, thank you for asking. I had

2 a few things when you had a second. Shall I bring them up now?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to be in open session or in private

4 session?

5 MS. BARUCH: Open session is fine. Yesterday I offered two

6 exhibits and I did not say under seal, and it concerned me afterwards to

7 make sure that it would be under --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. It's nice of you and very considerate

9 of you, Mrs. Baruch. They will be -- they are already under seal,

10 actually.

11 MS. BARUCH: Good. Okay the second thing is I need to announce

12 that we still haven't heard anything from the American embassy, and of

13 course if this Court orders that somebody from the Defence come tomorrow,

14 we would not permit ourselves to be held in contempt. However, we also do

15 not want to be felons. I appreciate that this Court -- this Tribunal is

16 working as hard as it can to assist us in that endeavour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I will ask Mr. Ackerman to choose between you and

18 him.

19 MS. BARUCH: Okay. Can we send our daughter?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your observation and -- for your

21 observation, Mrs. Baruch. All I know is that the President's office was

22 very actively involved in the matter yesterday. I haven't -- believe me I

23 haven't had the time this morning to consult with the President. I know

24 that he was busy at half past 8.00 already, so I don't know what or if

25 there are any developments at all. But probably if there will not be any

Page 19150

1 developments, I may actually place an order because I'm pretty confident

2 that this permit, if it doesn't arrive today, it will arrive tomorrow; and

3 if doesn't arrive tomorrow it will arrive the day after. So if I do give

4 an order it's because in my heart of heart convinced I will not be

5 exposing you to any prejudice, danger at all.

6 MS. BARUCH: I know that you would be my best witness, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 MS. BARUCH: Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have one matter raise and I wonder if

12 we could go into private session for it?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

14 [Private session]

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

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Page 19154

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22 (Redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: By the way, Ms. Korner, the military expert is

25 coming tomorrow, no?

Page 19155

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And we plan to finish with this witness today?

3 MS. KORNER: We do.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So we try on Friday to finish a little bit earlier

5 because I am replacing Judge Pocar on something important, and I need to

6 leave The Hague at roughly 12.00 to 12.30.

7 MS. KORNER: I'll let Mr. Nicholls know, who is dealing with

8 Mr. Brown. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, have you sorted out -- how long.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'll give them more than half the time. I don't

11 think I'll take more than -- if we get started, I think I can finish in

12 the first session, the direct.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mrs. Baruch?

14 MS. BARUCH: I don't know how these witnesses have been going.

15 I've been reading the transcripts, Your Honour, and so long as we are not

16 getting into the intercepted conversations at all but just about the

17 witness, I think for sure we are going to be finished today and probably

18 early as we were yesterday.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Anyway, I may as we go along have to

20 impose a time limit. So let's start, Mr. Koumjian. We are in closed

21 session, if I remember well, no.


23 MR. KOUMJIAN: We could be in open session for just the very

24 beginning, before the witness comes in. I just would like to mark some

25 documents before the witness comes in.

Page 19156

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment because I need --

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, go slowly, Mr. Koumjian, because this area is

4 pretty much complicated and I want to make sure that I am following 100

5 per cent.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I have just a moment? Okay. What I propose

7 is -- Your Honour, is to introduce the intercepts themselves as two

8 exhibits. First the group of intercepts containing the voice --

9 containing -- in which Mr. Brdjanin is one of the participants and this

10 would also include one speech he gave. And I'd ask that that be marked

11 people's next in order, which is P2382 -- excuse me, the next exhibit in

12 order. That was an old habit.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Where do we find that?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: This group of intercepts -- I'll go through them

15 individually and I'd like each one to be marked .1, .2, et cetera, so that

16 each one receives a separate exhibit number but all under P2382. The

17 first would be a transcript of a phone conversation between Karadzic and

18 Brdjanin dated the 17th of June, 1991.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: 17th and 18th of June I have here.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay. And just to be clear, the English

21 translation transcript is 03076498.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I want to make sure that Mrs. Baruch is in a

23 position to follow too.

24 MS. BARUCH: I don't think I would be, Your Honour, because as I

25 explained before he proceeded and I had discussions with Mr. Ackerman with

Page 19157

1 regard to this, the transcripts, intercepts, had not been offered or

2 discussed even during his cross-examination of the witnesses.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you have understood me. All I want --

4 we are identifying the various transcripts and giving them an exhibit

5 number. This is the exercise that I want to make sure that you can

6 follow. You have a copy of all the transcripts. That I know for sure

7 because we asked about that when we had the previous witness.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I can give Ms. Baruch a list in order

9 of the intercepts I'm offering. And just also to make clear to her, I do

10 not intend to go into the content of the intercepts with the witness. The

11 witness will simply talk about listening and recognising the voice.

12 MS. BARUCH: I do understand that. I would like again the date,

13 please, of that particular transcript.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sure. Actually, I'll give you a spreadsheet. I

15 can hand it to you now.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are talking, Mrs. Baruch, of a conversation

17 between Radoslav Brdjanin and Radovan Karadzic conducted on 17/18 June,

18 1991.

19 MS. BARUCH: I have a copy of that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: ERN 03076498.

21 MS. BARUCH: I do have a copy of it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that will become P?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: 2382.1.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 2382.1. All right.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Second would be a conversation, same participants,

Page 19158

1 2nd July, 1991.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: 2nd and 3rd July, P2382.1.


4 MS. BARUCH: That one I don't believe that I have. The 2nd of

5 July -- was that one -- oh, it had been mistranslated or something so that

6 they had written 92 instead of 1991. But it --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 1992 I have.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I give you the ERN number.

9 MS. BARUCH: Yes.

10 MS. KOUMJIAN: It's 03076507 to 6508.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's P2382.

12 MS. BARUCH: And just so that the Court would understand, what I

13 had been saying is my understanding from Mr. Ackerman or the prior

14 transcripts were -- was that he had previously been told and typed on that

15 particular transcript, it says 2/3 July, 1992, but that was in error and

16 it is actually a 1991 conversation. Is that correct?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. You can see on the B/C/S transcript it says

18 1991 and on the English it says --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MS. BARUCH: Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Listen, next can we do it in another fashion so that

22 we -- you have a list, you said?


24 JUDGE AGIUS: With an exhibit number that you intend to give to

25 each --

Page 19159

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think for the record --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. You will put that into the record and

3 we --

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, we don't --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- don't have to go and spend three-quarters of an

6 hour going through each and every one of these transcripts. And in the

7 course of your examination-in-chief, you will just refer to the exhibit

8 number and we look at the chart or at the table.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: If Your Honour wants I can --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Because otherwise, Mr. Koumjian, it's going to take

11 us an hour.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I could just simply read the ERN numbers and

13 we can go through them or --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to, just file it.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Give us a copy --

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: We will be --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I don't know if we have a copy. I don't

19 think -- yes, my apologies to the interpreters. I am talking too fast.

20 I'm sorry.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can we move into evidence or move to have marked as

22 an exhibit at this time. I understand the Court has reserved its ruling,

23 P2382.1 through.14. Those are the bundle of conversations in which

24 Mr. Brdjanin appears. And secondly, as the next exhibit in order P2383.1

25 through .16, 16 separate intercepts.

Page 19160

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically if I read you well, the first group,

2 the P2382 series are intercepts of telephone conversations in which you

3 allege -- stands to be proved, that Mr. Brdjanin was one of the persons on

4 line being intercepted.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct, with the exception of .14, which is a

6 speech given at the Holiday Inn I believe.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: With the exception of .14. And the others are

8 intercepts of conversations between other personalities.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, with the exception that again there are one

10 speeches by Mr. -- there is one speech by Mr. Karadzic contained in two of

11 the -- .14 and .15 are speeches by Mr. Karadzic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to help Your Honours on the spreadsheet, the

15 point numbers are on the right. The tab numbers I don't believe will help

16 Your Honours. That was from our internal collection, the left-hand

17 column. Just the right-hand column.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we can proceed along this way and

19 we'll probably cut down considerably on the time. We need a copy of that,

20 Mr. Koumjian, because I don't -- ah, I see.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not what he has in his hands. My eyesight

23 is still good enough to see that he is not reading from the same document

24 that I have in front of me. May have given it to us yesterday, I don't

25 know, but -- you see, that's different. Yes. This we have. Yeah, yeah

Page 19161

1 yeah, but this is not what we had earlier on.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, I think that's clear enough,

4 Mr. Koumjian.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can -- are you happy, Mrs. Baruch?

7 MS. BARUCH: I'm not happy, but yes, I have these.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we can proceed.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. We can call in the witness and go into closed

10 session.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, unfortunately I have to bring you some bad

12 news, members of the public, or the audience. We have to go into closed

13 session and therefore, as starting from now, you will not be able to

14 follow the remaining part of the proceedings. I'm sorry about that but

15 it's part of our rules.

16 [Closed session]

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19162












12 Pages 19162 to 19205 redacted closed session.














Page 19206

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9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

13 MS. BARUCH: May I just ask, if that has anything to do with the

14 admission of any of these exhibits, could -- if you make your motion now,

15 I can go and relate it to Mr. Ackerman but you could make it directly

16 while he is here, because I believe he will be here tomorrow morning. So

17 that's up to you, and the Tribunal, of course.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what Mr. Koumjian is going to say. So

19 yes, Mr. Koumjian?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: It might be helpful to everyone if Ms. Gustin has

21 put the exhibit numbers on -- annex A of the last witness's statement he

22 went through a series of the tapes and what he recognised, it might be

23 helpful to Your Honours to put the exhibit numbers. For the first nine

24 it's actually in order, P2382 --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's start with 2.330 would be what?

Page 19207

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: .1 and then the next is .2, .3, the first page is in

2 order, .1, .2, .3.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand either.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: 2.330 is P2382.1.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 238 -- this is already P2385.1. This document

6 itself annex A is P2385.1.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Right. So what I'm just saying -- the particular

8 tapes that the witness listened to starting with the first one, which is

9 on the left-hand column it's labelled by the disclosure number, 233, that

10 intercept is labelled -- has been marked as an Exhibit P2382.1.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is P2382.1, yes.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Next is 2382.2.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a reference chart -- becomes a reference

14 chart. Okay.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's in order. The first two pages are exactly in

16 order through the first eight intercepts.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 2382.3

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: .3 and then the next page .4, .5, through .8.

19 Going to the third page, whenever Your Honours are ready.


21 MR. KOUMJIAN: The first is 2832 --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that Mrs. Baruch is following.

23 MS. BARUCH: I'm following exactly.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So the next one is 2349, 2349 becomes -- is

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: 2382.9, then we go out of the order.

Page 19208

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 2382.9. And we continue --

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: 2382.12 is the second one down. The third one, as

3 indicated in the comments --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The second one, 2.351 is P2382. --

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: 12, .12.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next one --

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: The third one as pointed out in the comments is the

8 same as an earlier one, so it's a duplicate of P2382.3.


10 MR. KOUMJIAN: And the last one on this page is P2382.14.


12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Going to the fourth page, they are P2382.10 and .11

13 in that order.


15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Going to the fifth page, the first one was

16 previously marked as an exhibit during Mr. Treanor's I believe, testimony,

17 that's P2357.

18 MS. BARUCH: 2357?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: 2357, correct.

20 The middle one is P2383.11, .11. The last one on page 5, and the

21 remaining two on the next page are not offered into evidence. They are

22 not exhibits in this case.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very useful indeed.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: And one other brief point I'd like to bring out to

25 Your Honours, in reference to the motion on the admissibility of the

Page 19209

1 legality, on the Exhibit 2382.7, that intercept, you will hear

2 Mr. Brdjanin make a statement that his phone is tapped.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He said it's on fire.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. And on the next exhibit, 2383.9, Mr. Karadzic

5 tells Vojo Kupresanin that Mr. Karadzic says his phone is tapped.

6 Obviously we point that out to show that there was not an expectation of

7 privacy on those intercepts.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I've gone through the intercepts already,

9 Mr. Koumjian, and I'm pretty much aware that there was this, at least from

10 what they show on the face of it. Yes.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, that's all from me.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mrs. Baruch, anything else before we go to leave?

13 MS. BARUCH: I don't believe so, but if I'm expected to return

14 with an answer to something, if you give me a clue.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. What is important is that tomorrow you come

16 back with a feedback on what we discussed earlier on today, that's all,

17 feedback from Mr. Ackerman -- or Mr. Ackerman I understand will be here

18 himself. So the sitting stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19 Tomorrow is the military expert. Tomorrow is the military expert.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: So we will not discuss the legality of the

21 intercepts tomorrow.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if Mr. Ackerman had been here, I would have

23 asked you both to go into it and discuss it. What I can do -- I mean, I'm

24 not going anywhere now. If Mr. Ackerman can come forward and have

25 submissions, make submissions, we could do that. We can break for 25

Page 19210

1 minutes and then we'll see if he's in a position to come over, but I

2 pretty much doubt it. On the other hand the other alternative is to let

3 you make submissions, but then does it make sense?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: No. I just wanted to know whether to be here

5 tomorrow or not. One other housekeeping matter.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think both Judge Janu and Judge Taya and myself

7 are available if we can accommodate you, we will, and if we can find a way

8 of dealing with this matter today, we would rather have it done today than

9 postpone it.

10 Do you think it's possible for Mr. Ackerman to come over?

11 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry, Judge. I'm sorry, I can't answer for

12 that. If I were to guess from this morning, I would say no, but if you'd

13 like, he can certainly call the Office of the Prosecutor and if he's able

14 to do it today, then the Court -- the Tribunal would be notified. Okay?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do this, Mr. Koumjian: I will break now, we

16 will break now, try to contact Mr. Ackerman, see if you can reach an

17 agreement on this, whether he would be prepared, for example, to have you

18 submit oral pleadings in his absence now and in the presence of

19 Mrs. Baruch, of course, and then he will respond some other time. I don't

20 know. I mean, that's why I said we will accommodate you.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. I'll call him immediately after court.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And contact Madam Chuqing, who will then contact me

23 so that we will be in a position to know. If you can do that, as early,

24 as soon as possible, at least you won't keep everyone waiting here.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do recall he indicated he wanted to file

Page 19211

1 additional written response but I'll call him find out.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's up to you. I mean, we don't really

3 interfere much in these matters. We try to make your life easy or easier.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm prepared to rule if it's up to me.

5 MS. BARUCH: I would rule as well.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, in reference to the statement that

7 Ms. Korner mentioned in private session at the beginning of today, to

8 provide to Your Honours, I have three copies to provide to Your Honours.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that the other copy has been redacted and

10 will be handed over.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: The redacted version is not ready yet to be given

12 to the Defence. That will be provided by the end of the day to the

13 Defence in redacted form.

14 MS. BARUCH: By bicycle?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So for the time being, unless we have

16 news that we will be reconvening, we stand adjourned. And if we stand

17 adjourned, that will be until tomorrow morning at 9.00, with the

18 understanding that the whole morning will be dedicated to the military

19 expert. All right? Thanks.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.46 a.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

22 July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.