Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20086

1 Friday, 25 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow

10 in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution.

15 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin, case

16 manager, good morning, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you.

18 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours, David Cunningham with

20 Aleksandar Vujic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. First of all our

22 apologies for starting a quarter of an hour a late but we were discussing

23 the latest motion by Mr. Ackerman. In fact I do not see Mr. Ackerman

24 present here. We require his presence at some point in time today. He

25 chooses the time, whether it will be just after the first break or after

Page 20087

1 the second break or at the end of the sitting.

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I will call him at the next break and tell him,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That's unless he withdraws the motion.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll call him and he'll be here.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You can also tell him that we are not exactly happy

7 with it and that's why we want him present here because we don't fancy at

8 all, Mr. Cunningham, giving the public the wrong impression that there is

9 some sort of an unfair trial going on and that the Defence is being

10 deprived of the chances of providing -- of having a fair trial for the

11 client. And that's when we hit back. So Mr. Ackerman be better

12 prepared. He knows exactly where we stand and he knows exactly why we

13 stand where we stand. Secondly, there is also another thing that I want

14 to add in addition to the order that we made yesterday through the

15 Registrar relating to Mr. Brdjanin's motion of the 23rd of July for the

16 Registrar to provide certain documents. Let's go into private session for

17 a while.

18 [Private session]

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 20088

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3 (Redacted)

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6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That preliminary matter is whether or not

14 the Defence would withdraw those objections to the Petrovac exhibits that

15 had been previously raised, and much as I told the Court yesterday, the

16 objection remains.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So Ms. Korner, you know exactly

18 now how to proceed. You will not in any way find any obstructions on our

19 side. It's unfortunate but if you can find a method which will reduce,

20 economise on time it will be appreciated.

21 MS. KORNER: Absolutely, Your Honour. I may say that it's my view

22 that counsel do owe a duty to the Court as well, not to waste unnecessary

23 time.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.

25 MS. KORNER: But -- however, I've taken the point.

Page 20089

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, judge and my apologies to you

3 for keeping you waiting but we had a preliminary matter, procedural, that

4 does not concern you and which we had to discuss first in conference and

5 then here. And that kept us from starting on time as scheduled.

6 Please may I ask you to re-enter your solemn declaration, please?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, judge. Please take a chair and

12 Ms. Korner will --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

15 Q. Judge, good morning, can I ask one further question, please, on

16 the topic that we were dealing with yesterday which was the change of

17 street names and the like? Did there come a time when the name of the

18 municipality was changed, in other words -- can you hear?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. That -- from becoming -- from being called Bosanski

21 Petrovac, it became known as, I think, just Petrovac; is that right?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Can you roughly tell us when that happened?

24 A. I think it happened whether the former half of 1993 or towards the

25 end of 1992, I'm not quite sure.

Page 20090

1 Q. All right. Thank you, that's all I want to ask. Can we move on,

2 please, then, could you have your diary back again?

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've been asked by the Registrar if we

4 can make it 2369.1, just to sort it out from the original page that was

5 exhibited. So that's the diary as a whole.

6 Q. Can you turn in that to the 22nd of May?

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's page 72 of the translation.

8 Sorry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] What number do you want

10 to give it?

11 THE REGISTRAR: 2369.1.

12 MS. KORNER: The whole diary, Your Honour. The diary as a whole

13 as opposed to -- because we had one page provisionally exhibited already.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Oh, I see.

15 MS. KORNER: Doesn't matter to me, Your Honour but if it's easier

16 for the Registrar.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Of course.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about the microphone. So it will be P2369.1.

20 All right.

21 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honours, page 72 of the

22 translation.

23 Q. Could you have at the same time Exhibit P1830? And 1831 as well?

24 So that we don't -- 1831, please, as well? It's the next document in the

25 binder.

Page 20091












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Page 20092

1 Sir, you recorded in your diary or your notebook the -- a meeting

2 of the executive board at 10.00 and then the Presidency session at 1400,

3 2.00 p.m., and if you look, please, at the minutes of that meeting, P1830,

4 we can see the actual minutes of the meeting. Looking at it, can you tell

5 us whether you wrote it or whether somebody else kept those minutes?

6 A. This part of the copy was poorly scanned, but here I can see a

7 meeting 8.25 and I see that I was the note taker.

8 Q. Sorry, pause. You're on the wrong one, sorry. If you look at the

9 other side of the page, you'll see 22nd --

10 A. On the left-hand side, the 22nd May, that is only a plan. And

11 then we come to the operative part. Now, whether it's the 25th of May, I

12 cannot really say because --

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Because the whole diary was scanned and --

15 Q. I'm going to stop you because we have quite a lot to get through

16 today. All I want to do is confirm that on the left-hand side, you have a

17 plan that there was to be a Presidency session at 1400 and if you look,

18 please, at the document for the municipal -- for the minutes, does that

19 show that there was indeed a meeting on the 22nd of May at 1400?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. I think for the first time we see that the Crisis Staff is now

22 calling itself the Presidency although the people are the same. It was --

23 was the structure of this group of people the same whether it was called

24 Crisis Staff or War Presidency or War Staff?

25 A. Well, the structure was more or less the same, or similar. I have

Page 20093

1 to say that administratively speaking, there was a huge disorder because

2 all sorts of reorganisations were being undertaken and they gave different

3 names to the same services or bodies. At that time, even I wasn't quite

4 sure what was what. So what you are saying now is quite possibly true,

5 probably yes, I would say that by and large they were the same people.

6 Q. All right. If we look -- if you look at the next document you've

7 been given, which was P1831, I think we can see that they are much the

8 same body because it's headed, "The Crisis Staff of Petrovac municipality"

9 but handwritten at the top is, "War Presidency"; is that right?

10 A. It is. At some point in time, the Crisis Staff was renamed as the

11 War Presidency and this is its composition.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. Except that later on, they would also incorporate me into it,

14 because of the administrative matters that had to be dealt with.

15 Q. Now, just staying on your diary, as you were starting to tell us,

16 you recorded a meeting with the representatives of the army and as we can

17 see, also, the police; is that correct?

18 A. I don't see all the names here but I see Obrad and Jane and they

19 are undoubtedly members of the army and there is something else and then

20 it says Krajina Corps, that is the Drvar one so your conclusion is

21 correct, I guess, although I can't read anything else from this copy.

22 Q. All right. It's a bad copy. In your diary, there are a number of

23 these types of meetings. Was it important, as far as you were concerned,

24 and as far as the other members of the Crisis Staff were concerned, that

25 there should be regular meetings with representatives of the police and

Page 20094

1 the army?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. All right. I don't think we need trouble further with -- because

4 it's clear that there was a very lengthy discussion about this.

5 So you can give the two documents back, please, to the usher.

6 I'm sorry, there is perhaps one matter that I ought to deal with

7 on this. Hang on a moment. Yes. I'm sorry, it goes back to what I was

8 asking you further -- earlier. If you look, please, at document P1830,

9 and if you go to the conclusions, under item -- it says item 5 and then

10 conclusion, we can see that the decision that the town should bear the

11 name of Petrovac without the preceding Bosanski was adopted unanimously.

12 So it looks like -- it's my fault for not taking you straight to the

13 document but it looks like that the decision to change the name was taken

14 in 1992. Would you agree with that?

15 A. You're right, yes. You are right. But the decision to change the

16 name of the town could not be officially taken by this body so that it was

17 adopted officially but it is quite possible that it happened towards the

18 end of 1992 and I mean formally speaking from the legal point of view,

19 this could only be a proposal, that is an initiative, of the municipal

20 administration which had to be confirmed by the republican assembly.

21 Q. I see so it couldn't be decided at your -- at the municipal level,

22 it had to be decided by the republic level?

23 A. No, it couldn't. This means that this is a definite conclusion.

24 This is an initiative that had been adopted.

25 Q. Okay. All right. Can we -- now you can give the document back.

Page 20095

1 I want to move, then, in your diary, please, to the next day, the 23rd,

2 which is our page 76. And we see that there was a session of the Crisis

3 Staff at 1500 hours in the afternoon, and then those -- that list of the

4 members as -- in fact as we see, and then over the other side of the page,

5 on the 24th, the Crisis Staff of ARK, A-R-K, and then duty officer, and

6 then the president and a number, Brdjanin. Now, do you know why you were

7 recording the number -- first of all, are these telephone numbers?

8 A. Correct. These are telephone numbers.

9 Q. And do you know why you were recording in your notebook the number

10 of the duty officer and the number for Mr. Brdjanin?

11 A. President Novakovic had given me these numbers for contact in case

12 he was not there and if there is an emergency so that I could establish

13 contact with Crisis Staff. For the same reason the other members, all the

14 other members of the Crisis Staff had their numbers written down here,

15 that is to say the Crisis Staff of the municipality.

16 Q. All right. Now, I want to look, please, at the 24th through some

17 of the documents. It appears it was a very busy day. Could you have,

18 please, first of all --

19 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, these were the extra documents which

20 regrettably I left out before. First of all, P1807. I think everybody

21 has had them now.

22 Q. As we'll see, there were three meetings apparently that day and

23 this is the first in time because the number appears to be 13/92.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, they were handed in --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It's okay, Ms. Korner.

Page 20096


2 Q. Is that right, we can see you were present and the meeting started

3 at 8.25 in the morning?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. It's not altogether clear -- well, first, can I remind you just if

6 there is anything which says to you that the document is not authentic or

7 the signature is not authentic, let us know but otherwise, don't bother.

8 Can I ask you to look, please, at the order that was made? It's on page 3

9 of the translation. The item number 3, the organs of the military police

10 of the police station Petrovac and the military organs of security are

11 hereby ordered to coordinate their work in order to prevent the looting of

12 military public and private property, and then it goes on to talk about

13 the return of looted property. The commander of the service of the public

14 security Petrovac, Gacesa, Captain Trivo Plemic from the base and

15 Captain Nikola Kovacevic from the Petrovac Brigade are hereby charged with

16 the implementation of this task. Upon completing the aforesaid measures

17 they are obliged to inform the Crisis Staff about the measures taken and

18 the results achieved.

19 Can you just tell us who was Captain Plemic?

20 A. I just remember him in passing. As far as I know, in terms of the

21 surname, he'd have to come from the municipality of Kljuc originally

22 because it is in that municipality that a family with that surname lives

23 and here he is the representative of the military command.

24 Q. All right. That's what I wanted to know. All right. And then

25 could you come down to the second item and the decision that was arrived

Page 20097












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Page 20098

1 at on that? The executive board shall, brackets, for the third time ask

2 from the companies and organisations to provide plans of production and

3 work during wartime. And so on.

4 Could you have a look now, please, again, at the minutes -- the

5 gazettes that were issued by the regional Crisis Staff, P227? Could you

6 turn to the conclusions for the 13th of May, 1992, which is number 9 in

7 the gazettes? And we see that under conclusion number 1, production in

8 all socially or privately owned companies is to be in line with war plans

9 and we again appeal to the managers of Krajina enterprises to immediately

10 submit their war plans for analysis and approval, and then management

11 posts and enterprises must be filled absolutely by persons loyal to the

12 Serbian republic.

13 Was this decision a response to that conclusion by the autonomous

14 region Crisis Staff?

15 A. In essence, no. Although formally, yes.

16 Q. What's the difference?

17 A. The difference is in the following: In the previous state, the

18 SFRY, there was an entire set of laws that regulated this particular

19 field, and these laws were taken over later. One of the key regulations

20 in case of war was the obligation to plan and organise wartime production

21 for those companies whose products are indispensable for the survival of

22 the population, for their medical protection and war logistics. In that

23 way, it was simply continued along these lines. Here in this case of the

24 ARK Krajina. As far as this local decision is concerned they actually

25 worked according to the same pattern.

Page 20099

1 Q. Okay. I think if -- correct me if I'm wrong -- what you're saying

2 is this is what the law said had to happen and the conclusion of the

3 autonomous region and your own decision was merely, effectively, carrying

4 out that law? Is that what you're saying?

5 A. Correct. Although the AR Krajina was the formal transmission here

6 so to speak.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. You can leave that one now. Could you

8 have, please, P1808, which was the next meeting that same day at 1500

9 hours? There we see, I think, the reference to the problem of the cows,

10 which is under the second agenda item, and you made a long decision about

11 them. And I think -- can I just summarise this? These were really

12 valuable cows because the Court has already seen a lot of discussion about

13 cows but I think as we can see, under the decision that was made on the

14 following page, these cows were eastern Frisian breed bought in Holland

15 and so were considered very valuable; is that right?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The Dutch will be happy to hear that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm trying to curry favour with the

19 Dutch at the moment.

20 Q. I want to look please above that. Under the first -- the decision

21 under agenda item 1, the security situation in the municipality, item

22 number 4, in the area of the Petrovac municipality, the disarmament of

23 paramilitary formations and citizens who illegally possess weapons will

24 start on the 24th of May, 1992. So is that right? In Petrovac, the

25 disarming actually started later than apparently it did in other places?

Page 20100

1 A. I believe that it is so. First of all, I forgot to tell you one

2 thing. The document I looked at a while ago is an authentic document

3 indeed and the remark that the 17th session of the Crisis Staff is also

4 under way is a true one. This is the 18th session. A separate session of

5 the Crisis Staff without the presence of members of military commands. It

6 is possible that later on, in the municipality of Petrovac, this did

7 start, simply for the following reasons because it was done differently in

8 other municipalities. There were armed conflicts there between Serbs and

9 Muslims. There was no such thing in our area. And basically, this

10 disarmament was not disarmament it was arms collection as I explained

11 yesterday. Basically there was no resistance involved.

12 Q. All right. And so you needn't tell us if you agree it's

13 authentic. It's only if you're not sure it's authentic you need to tell

14 the Court. All right. Now, you can put that away. Could you have P1809,

15 which is the third meeting that day. The 19th session, held I think that

16 must be 1900 hours, 7.00 in the evening. And --

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. If we go, please, to the decision under agenda item 2, well, if we

19 look at agenda item 2, the president of the Crisis Staff stated that there

20 are certain functional omissions in his work and the functional

21 organisation of the staff itself should be improved in order to reach and

22 implement the necessary decisions with the highest level of efficiency.

23 If you then go to the decision on the functional improvement, item number

24 3, "Premises within the building of the public security station Petrovac

25 will be prepared for detaining perpetrators of criminal acts." Then it

Page 20101

1 describes what that means and it includes criminal acts that jeopardise

2 the defensive ability of the Serb people will be detained in a prison

3 until a trial. Prisoners in custody can be utilised for work of a public

4 interest as well as on jobs related to defensive preparations, building of

5 shelters, et cetera. Now, first, what was meant by criminal acts that

6 jeopardised the defensive ability of the Serb people?

7 A. Basically, this is a propaganda slogan. All three meetings were

8 held because abruptly, there was no longer any control over the security

9 and safety of citizens and the safety of their property. To give an

10 example, these cows were not important from the point of view of property

11 or the economy as such. The point was that people looted them. They

12 grabbed them. Seized them. So this was a message sent out in very strong

13 terms that this should be stopped, because the looting that started then

14 and also in areas that at that time -- I mean in Muslim villages in the

15 area of Bihac, by the members of our army, this also meant that there was

16 a collapse of the security and safety system for the citizens as such.

17 This ultimately led to the decline of the defensive abilities of the Serb

18 people because people who loot and plunder are not soldiers who are

19 capable of waging a war. That's the point.

20 Q. So you're saying that criminal acts that jeopardise the defensive

21 ability referred to looting?

22 A. Precisely. Because this became a widespread thing. These people

23 as soldiers plundered and then they went to their homes, they fled to

24 their homes, and this weakened the actual military units.

25 Q. Thank you. Then the prisoners in custody can be used for work of

Page 20102

1 public interest and defence preparation. Was that a normal thing that

2 people who had been arrested could be sent out to work on defence,

3 defensive preparations?

4 A. At that time, it was customary practice. However, I do remember

5 that if somebody would explicitly refuse to take part in this, there was

6 no way of coercing such a person to do that. I think that's what the

7 chief of police said. However, I must say that a negligible number of

8 people were arrested and only some went through disciplinary proceedings

9 before military organs and they were simply sent to other units that were

10 far away from our area, but this was a very small number.

11 Q. So if -- sorry, picking up on that, so if people were brought

12 before military courts for acts such as looting, you're saying what would

13 happen to them is they would just be sent to units away from the area?

14 A. The military court did not function at all. This was a

15 disciplinary decision of their commander or commanding officer.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. And it was not carried through to the extent that was necessary.

18 Q. All right. Finally on this document, then we can leave it, at

19 number 8 under the conclusions, there is a decision that the Crisis Staff

20 will analyse implementation of its own decisions in order to determine the

21 responsibility, et cetera, and improve its efficiency. Thank you. You

22 can put that document away now.

23 Can you look now, please, at your diary again, on the 27th of

24 May? And I think there we can see that there is either to be a Crisis

25 Staff meeting at 1400 or there is one, which is to analyse the

Page 20103












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Page 20104

1 implementation of the decisions by the Crisis Staff, and if you look,

2 please, at P1865, we can see that indeed there was a Crisis Staff meeting

3 on the 27th of May at 1400 hours, and --

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. You were present, although in fact your name doesn't appear as

6 attending, I don't think, but we can see under item 2 that you gave a

7 presentation.

8 A. These minutes were taken by the technical secretary. I did not

9 take these notes because as a rule when I would keep the minutes, I would

10 make sure that ultimately when the minutes were completed, they should be

11 signed by the president and this is an omission that is usual when this is

12 being copied. It is true I was present and I see that I also reported on

13 something.

14 Q. Yes, exactly. All right. Can we deal, please, with two of the

15 items that were discussed? Mr. Milanovic informed the meeting on the

16 results of the talks with the representative of the SDA citizens forum.

17 And stated that the representatives, Mr. Hidic and Mr. Ferizovic, spread

18 alarming rumours by saying that the Muslim citizens want to emigrate

19 collectively. And then Mr. Ivanic said that the citizens forum said that

20 the Muslims were loyal citizens and accused Safet Hidic and Mustafa

21 Ferizovic of illegal arming. Can we put it this way. Not to spend too

22 long on it. Does it appear there was a split between the SDA, between

23 those who wanted to -- wanted everybody to emigrate and those who said

24 they should remain in Petrovac and support the government?

25 A. I cannot say that there was a split, as far as the SDA is

Page 20105

1 concerned. However, in that period, the Muslims as a community were in a

2 precarious position because of all these circumstances that have been

3 documented. There was a forum of citizens as a more or less non-political

4 body, which included prominent figures from the authorities and from

5 political echelons in general. They mediated in order to reduce tensions,

6 and in order to have the Muslims protected, and in order to have their

7 interests protected as much as possible. It is true that this was

8 discussed in such a way. However, I wish to point out the following:

9 Ivanic also presented the convictions of some citizens that he had

10 contacted and of course he had contact only with a few people, and since

11 he was a Serb, probably they were telling him what he wanted to hear. You

12 know how people act when they are worried about the safety of their

13 property and things like that. That's the position that they are in

14 then. At any rate everybody was saying what they were convinced of.

15 Q. All right. Yes, thank you. And then you, as you noted in your

16 own diary, informed the Crisis Staff on the implementation of the

17 decisions in respect of the previous session of the Crisis Staff. Now,

18 finally could you turn to the conclusion? The last one, a memorandum is

19 to be sent to the Krnjeusa local commune informing them that the Crisis

20 Staff they have formed is illegal. Could you have a look again, please,

21 at the gazettes of the regional Crisis Staff, Exhibit P227? And could you

22 go to the conclusions for the 9th of May, number 6? We see there that

23 decisions adopted by the war staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina are

24 to be strictly respected and item number 3 no Crisis Staff can be formed

25 in any enterprise. Now, was that anything to do with the decision that

Page 20106

1 there was an illegal Crisis Staff in Krnjeusa?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. In Krnjeusa the Crisis Staff was illegal because they tried to

5 establish a Crisis Staff and to make it impossible to seize looted

6 property. Armoured vehicles were used to take it away. They were very

7 persistent in safeguarding their right to looting.

8 Q. Right. Who -- was this a Serb-inhabited commune?

9 A. It was.

10 Q. All right. All right. Thank you. You can put that document

11 away, then. If we move very quickly then through the end of May in your

12 diary, on the 28th of the 5th, you noted that there was -- you had to

13 organise a meeting between the Crisis Staff and the brigade command staff

14 but that you would not be there.

15 A. No. It's not that I couldn't attend. It was a note that I was to

16 give the president, after consultations with the brigade command, it is

17 they who said they could not attend but in point of fact they simply did

18 not want to attend the meeting.

19 Q. And why was that?

20 A. At that time, the Crisis Staff kept telling them that they were

21 responsible for the large-scale plunder and disorder and all the rest, and

22 their representatives did not like that at all.

23 Q. All right. Sorry, just a -- all right. Can we move, then, please

24 to now the 1st of June in your diary? And that's at our page 82. You do

25 a list of the presidents of the local communes and then if you go to the

Page 20107

1 part where you list the 23rd session of the Crisis Staff at 1615, that's

2 our page 84, Your Honour. Again you're analysing the implementation of

3 the Crisis Staff decisions from the previous session and then a decision

4 to send a report to an authorised command in the territory of the

5 municipality regarding the municipal request to coordinate the security

6 activities, provided that all factors are involved in the plan, TO, police

7 and army, and then was it you who was to do the memorandum?

8 A. As a rule, I wrote those. I can't remember this concrete one but

9 yes, as a rule, the president asked me to do that.

10 Q. All right. Why was there to be a report sent to the authorised

11 command? What was the problem? I mean, why were you having a request to

12 coordinate all the security activities?

13 A. I've already told you the reason, because mostly the disorder and

14 the disarray, were mostly caused by their members, yes, you're right but

15 there were also other problems. There would be shots fired in the town,

16 there was violence, and those men wore uniforms and the civilian police

17 couldn't even arrest them. The civilian police could only perhaps take

18 down their names but then would have to let them go.

19 Q. All right. Thank you, now I'm afraid I did miss one more document

20 from the end of May. Could you have a look at Exhibit P211? This is a --

21 apparently a telegram, this one in particular, I think, comes from Sanski

22 Most. I mean this particular copy. Dated the 28th of May, sent by the

23 Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff and some conclusions, and could

24 you look at item number 7? That states if Muslims and Croats or members

25 of the SDA Party of Democratic Action wish to leave or move out of the

Page 20108

1 Autonomous Region of Krajina they must enable the endangered Serbian

2 people against whom unprecedented genocide is being conducted to move

3 collectively into their places, i.e. they must facilitate an exchange

4 based on reciprocity. And that, in fact, we can see if we look at the

5 meeting, the gazette, for the 28th, for the 29th of May, in fact, which is

6 number 23 in the gazette, something that had been decided and I think

7 there is an earlier one as well but I lost my note on that. Yeah.

8 Now, if you just look at that and then could you have, please,

9 P1869?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: While the witness has -- looks at the document,

11 Ms. Korner, if perhaps at some point in time before this witness goes

12 home, if you could provide us with a list of which of the documents that

13 he has been referred to and acknowledged directly or indirectly as

14 authentic, come from AID?

15 MS. KORNER: Yes, I will, certainly, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


18 Q. Do you see there that Mr. Latinovic under the agenda -- first of

19 all the agenda, 1, discussing the conclusions of the autonomous region

20 Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, Mr. Latinovic reads the conclusion of

21 the AR Crisis Staff in Banja Luka reached at the session on the 29th of

22 May, 1992. Now, pausing there, would that mean that the person who had

23 been to the meeting of the Crisis Staff would read the conclusion?

24 A. It would, yes, unless it has arrived in a written form.

25 Q. Right. This is what I wanted -- because we'll see that the first

Page 20109












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Page 20110

1 thing that you adopted was that all Muslims and Croats who so wish be

2 enable to evacuate from the territory of the ARK, et cetera which is

3 almost identical wording to what we see in this telegram. Now, I know

4 it's difficult. Can you remember whether this particular instruction

5 which you followed came by telegram or whether somebody had personally

6 attended the meeting?

7 A. I don't remember how these conclusions reached us. Possibly they

8 were faxed but I'd say it was most likely that it was to the signals unit

9 that they reached but perhaps there was a messenger who brought them. I

10 don't remember it, because of all the security measures around the Banja

11 Luka airport, which looked rather curious to me so that -- but be that as

12 it may, these decisions were adopted and they are as they are. And the

13 principle of reciprocity in such a law after the war was established and

14 it was only the high commissioner who vacated that law and it was a law on

15 the manner of using the abandoned property but I mean, no, the law was

16 unenforceable any way.

17 Q. You've said a number of things. First of all, you said the high

18 commissioner reversed it. In other words, people were entitled to have

19 back their property in the areas which they had left, is that what you're

20 talking about?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. But this in fact -- well, the effect was, wasn't it, to create or

23 to try and create an ethnically pure area?

24 A. I cannot talk about somebody's intentions but, yes, what happened

25 would allow such a conclusion.

Page 20111

1 Q. All right. Anyhow, can you just tell us, while we are on this

2 topic, who would normally attend the meetings of the regional Crisis

3 Staff?

4 A. It was President Novakovic who was supposed to attend those

5 meetings ex officio. If he was prevented then I think it was Dragan

6 Milanovic, who was a member of parliament, perhaps he was also to go there

7 ex officio, but I didn't communicate with him much because we did not

8 particularly like each other, I have to say. So that Mr. Bogdan

9 Latinovic, who was the president of the executive board, would be there

10 instead of him, so that when President Novakovic couldn't Latinovic went,

11 but it was usually one of those front men --

12 Q. All right.

13 A. -- who went to those meetings.

14 Q. Thank you. You can put that document away now. I'm sorry, trying

15 to keep track of so many different documents. I need you to go back in

16 your diary just one moment to the 26th of May, our page 78. You wrote

17 down at the bottom of that entry for the 26th of May, three names. Can

18 you just very briefly tell us who these people were?

19 A. These are individuals who were plundering the Muslim population as

20 an organised group and were involved also in other violent acts, as was

21 established by the police, and there was somebody else I can't remember

22 his name because I didn't know it at the time, I was to brief the public

23 Prosecutor about this so that he could prepare the indictment and so that

24 everything could be prepared for their arrest.

25 Q. Right. You said apart from plundering, they were involved in

Page 20112

1 other violent acts. What were they?

2 A. From what I heard, they were involved in so-called racketeering.

3 That is they went to some households, that they thought there could be

4 some money and would threaten that they would kill a member of the family

5 unless all the money was given to them. And I know that once they

6 abducted a minor, I think it was a 14 or 15 year old girl I'm not quite

7 sure but I saw her father crying. It was a Muslim ethnicity. I mean both

8 father and the daughter were Muslim, and I know that the police organised

9 a pursuit to find the abducted girl.

10 Q. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. I'm sorry I had to go back there.

11 I'd like to go on moving, please, through June. Could you look, please,

12 at your entry for the 2nd of June in your diary? You've got an entry,

13 check the situation about the payments of pensions in the territory of the

14 Autonomous Region of Krajina. Very briefly, whose pensions?

15 A. Pensioners. When AR Krajina was proclaimed it was to adopt all

16 the duties of a government. I mean to adopt all the duties of the

17 republic, and the government of Krajina was to assume all the roles, all

18 the duties, of a republican government, that is payments, then different

19 funds and how they are to be funded, how they are to be replenished and

20 that includes the pensions fund so I was asked to see whether this was in

21 working order because I suppose there were some delays in payments.

22 Q. Right. And then that same day, if you go to the next part, page,

23 of your diary, this is our page 87, there is reference to the meeting

24 about the incident in Biscani. What had happened in Biscani that required

25 a meeting?

Page 20113

1 A. Well, I suppose there was some violent act which had to do with

2 the security of the Muslim population because Biscani is largely inhabited

3 by Muslims.

4 Q. Can you remember now --

5 A. Possibly -- possibly it was the -- this incident that I mentioned

6 when the girl was abducted. I cannot really pinpoint it, but I can't

7 think of anything else. I can't think what else could it have been.

8 Q. All right. Now, I just want to show you, please, one short new

9 document which you saw in the interview. That's disclosure 2.233 which

10 will become P2451. It's actually dated the 27th of May. And it asks the

11 military post to issue two automatic rifles and two hand grenades to arm

12 the driver of the municipal Crisis Staff and the cryptographic data

13 protection operator. Can you just tell us why it was necessary to arm

14 these two people like that?

15 A. The driver of the municipal -- of the official vehicle of the

16 municipal hall often took the president through areas where there was

17 combat going on. The president really took risks and that is how he got

18 killed eventually and that is why it was thought necessary to issue the

19 driver with an automatic rifle. As for the signals centre and the -- they

20 had a so-called crypto room and the only person who was involved with

21 codes was admitted into that room. During the war, they were all armed --

22 before that, before that, they had pistols but when the war started, this

23 was stepped up and they were issued with automatic rifles. Because that

24 kind of work was considered very important and very confidential.

25 Q. Right. Okay. Thank you. Now can we move, please, on again to

Page 20114

1 further in your diary, no. In fact, I think you need to look, please, now

2 at P1870, which is the 4th of June. First of all, the first agenda item,

3 the president, Mr. Novakovic informed those in attendance about the talks

4 that he had with Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic. That goes back, does

5 it, to what you told us yesterday, that Mr. Novakovic had access to the

6 two leaders?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. All right. And were you present when he met with them?

9 A. Well, no, not then. He went to those meetings alone, and there

10 was no need for me to go with him.

11 Q. All right. Now, the second item is the incident in Biscani, so

12 that's come up again and if you look at agenda item 2 --

13 A. Yes. I've had a look, and it all came back to me. I think I

14 really know what this is about. It's that -- at that time a whole Muslim

15 family was slain, was killed. I cannot remember their last name because I

16 was a newcomer there, but I know that the first name of the man was Sevko,

17 and in one night, he, his wife, a daughter and a son, who were quite

18 young, in their late teens or maybe 20 year old, were all killed, and the

19 police investigated the case, there were different ideas, various guesses

20 and hypotheses were made as to who could have been the perpetrators but

21 that is what this is about, the killing of that family.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much. You can put that document away

23 now. And can we move, please, in your diary to the 7th of June? That's

24 page 92. Now, there you record, it's headed meeting in Palanka. Is that

25 a meeting that you attended?

Page 20115












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Page 20116

1 A. This is a meeting which I should have attended and perhaps I did,

2 because on a couple of occasions I did go to meetings in Palanka, once it

3 was in winter time and once it was in summertime. So this could have been

4 that meeting that took place that summer.

5 Q. All right. I'd now like to you have a look, please, at P229.

6 This is a document headed, "Sanski Most, 7th of June, 1992. Conclusions

7 adopted at a subregional meeting of the political representatives of the

8 municipalities of" and it includes Bosanski Petrovac. It was sent to the

9 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Banja Luka and the leadership and

10 the 1st Krajina Corps. Conclusion number 1: It is necessary to declare a

11 state of war in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and -- because

12 of the situation in the municipalities, and it goes on, Ustasha troops are

13 preparing to immediately attack the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

14 If you look, please, at your notebook, the problem of refugees and

15 prisoners, and then you say state of war to be proclaimed.

16 Now, does that seem to suggest that it was this meeting that you

17 were attending?

18 A. It does.

19 Q. And Palanka -- Lusci Palanka is in the municipality of Sanski

20 Most, is it not?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. All right. I'm not -- I don't think you've had a chance to read

23 through this.

24 MS. KORNER: So Your Honour, it may be appropriate because it's a

25 lengthy document if we break now and the witness has a chance to take the

Page 20117

1 document with him and just read it over the break.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 25 minute break now. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, before Ms. Korner starts may I

6 address the Court about Mr. Ackerman?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you want to wait for your client?


9 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise we'll have a speech. Yes.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I spoke with Mr. Ackerman over the

11 break and with the Court's leave he would be here at 1.30. I think that

12 would be the best but of course if you disagree he'll be here sooner.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It's okay with me. It's okay with me.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead.


18 Q. Judge, you've had a look at that, I think, document now, over the

19 break, does that remind you about the meeting?

20 A. Yes. I do recall the meeting now.

21 Q. Can I ask first of all, do you remember the names of the people

22 who attended from the other municipalities? We see in your notebook that

23 Stakic is written down there. Was he the person who attended from

24 Prijedor?

25 A. I believe that he was, and I probably wrote his number down in

Page 20118

1 order to keep it up to date because numbers changed very often so I used

2 this opportunity to have the exact telephone number because I needed exact

3 telephone numbers in order to be able to contact people.

4 Q. All right. Sanski Most, did you know Rasula?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Do you remember if he was there?

7 A. I don't remember exactly who the persons present were but as a

8 rule the presidents were present and perhaps if they were unable to

9 attend, then they would send a representative and that is the capacity in

10 which I went.

11 Q. Did you know Mr. Pasic from Bosanski Novi?

12 A. I didn't know him.

13 Q. Okay. We see that you made a note that in your diary of Basara

14 and he apparently -- the note you put then is the RSK assets to be put at

15 the disposal of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Does that mean that he

16 was at this meeting as well?

17 A. Possibly he was, or he made this proposal, or this has to do with

18 some material resources or weapons, I don't know exactly. These are

19 resources from the Republika Srpska Krajina that were given to the

20 Autonomous Region of Krajina for their use. At this meeting I probably

21 did not take part in the debate. I was there only to collect information

22 and to convey information and that is why I did not take a lot of notes.

23 Q. All right. If we just briefly summarise what was being said

24 there, they wanted -- the first conclusion to declare a state of war so

25 that war tribunals could start functioning. The second dealing with the

Page 20119

1 corridor. Then the third dealing with the reorganisation of the former

2 JNA, which was by then the VRS. Four, a demand that General Talic purge

3 the 1st Krajina Corps of Muslims and Croats. Five, that the borders of

4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina were defined. And then six, all seven

5 municipalities in our subregion agree that Muslims and Croats should move

6 out of our municipalities until a level is reached where Serbian authority

7 can be maintained, request the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region

8 provide a corridor. And if the leadership fails to solve this issue, our

9 seven municipalities will take all Muslims and Croats under military

10 escort from our municipalities.

11 Now, I want to know, sir, you were really, as you say, taking

12 notes so you could brief your own municipality. Was Mr. Novakovic there

13 with you?

14 A. No, no. I wouldn't have been present had he been there. I

15 believe that he sent me there purely out of courtesy towards the others,

16 since they had invited him. I believe that he thought that this meeting

17 was not all that important and that's why he sent me as an envoy. Had it

18 been important, I would have taken a lot of notes, and I probably would

19 have had a great deal of the content involved in my notes. As a matter of

20 fact, I don't even remember that such conclusions were reached. I think

21 that they actually wrote it this way subsequently and in an arbitrary

22 fashion.

23 Q. All right. Can I ask you this? It says all seven municipalities

24 agreed to these conclusions. Were you in a position to agree that on

25 behalf of your president?

Page 20120

1 A. I did not have any authority in this regard and that is upon which

2 I base my assertion that this was written off the cuff and later. Muslims

3 were not an impediment to the organisation of government in our

4 municipality so we certainly would not have voted in favour of such a

5 conclusion because it would have been pointless. Secondly, there are

6 differing decisions involved here and also there are certain conditions

7 that are put forth that are wrong, that are inexpedient and so on. Last

8 but not least, may I note that the actual language, the lexicon of this

9 text, is troublesome.

10 Q. And what do you mean by that?

11 A. I mean that it is legally unfounded. Quite simply, it is

12 illiterate from an administrative point of view. There is a lot of

13 contradictory elements involved.

14 Q. All right. The threat to take all Muslims and Croats under

15 military escort from our municipalities to the centre of Banja Luka, do

16 you recall something like that being said at the meeting?

17 A. No. This meeting -- since I do not remember it -- was some kind

18 of informal chat, and it certainly was not binding in any way, because had

19 such important decisions actually been taken, I would have recorded them

20 verbatim in my notebook.

21 Q. Whatever conclusions were adopted by these political

22 representatives, as it's stated, in your view, was that going to be

23 binding on any one of the seven?

24 A. This could not have been binding. I think that this was done in

25 one of the municipalities. At the end of the meeting it was probably

Page 20121












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Page 20122

1 agreed informally that somebody should draft this document and send it to

2 the relevant authorities. So basically, whoever wrote this did this on

3 his own. I don't know who did it exactly. I see with fraternal greetings

4 written here but there is not a full copy of the page so I can't see who

5 signed it. Basically this was sent on behalf of the party.

6 Q. All right. In fact the only -- as you say, the only conclusion

7 that you seem to have noted down is that a state of war should be

8 proclaimed, which was in the first conclusion. However, I want you to

9 look now, please, if you would, at -- just a moment, so I get my note

10 right --

11 A. May I?

12 Q. Yes. Is there something else you want to say about this?

13 A. There was a discussion on the proclamation of a state of war and

14 also the problem of population resettlement because it says here the

15 problem of refugees. That's what it says in my notebook so all of this

16 was discussed but conclusions were not formally adopted. Somebody wrote

17 them subsequently, later. Had they been adopted at the actual meeting,

18 they would not have been worded as they are now.

19 Q. Well, I think you need to look, before you go on, at document

20 P1873, which was the 28th session of the Crisis Staff on the 9th of June

21 and if you go, please, to the conclusion and under item 2, you will see

22 Mr. Latinovic informed the participants about the conclusions adopted at

23 the meeting, that was held at Lusci Palanka with the representatives of

24 the seven municipalities. Now, did you inform Mr. Latinovic or do you

25 think that Mr. Latinovic may have been there, or alternatively did he get

Page 20123

1 the conclusions or can't you say?

2 A. It is possible that Mr. Latinovic was at the meeting then but it

3 was not our meeting. I meant the municipal level. So that's why I did

4 not take a lot of notes. Possibly I accompanied Mr. Latinovic or perhaps

5 I only noted the meeting in Palanka in view of the questions that should

6 be discussed and perhaps Latinovic was at the meeting then. I cannot say

7 exactly. It's been a long time now.

8 Q. I appreciate that but he was actually informing them about the

9 conclusions. I should ask you this: Had you ever seen those written

10 conclusions before you looked at them today?

11 A. I do not remember having seen them earlier, but their content is

12 such that it does correspond to what was going on at that time.

13 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Latinovic held the views that the

14 Muslims and Croats should be removed from the municipality of Petrovac?

15 A. He did not hold such a view. I know that because at one point in

16 time, after the civic forum which we already mentioned gave a proposal on

17 the part of the Muslims that they should join the army too, but that they

18 should not go to those front lines where Serbs and Muslims clashed

19 directly, but also they asked that the commander of that unit should be a

20 Serb. So that possible responsibility for losing a position would not

21 fall on them. I mean so that no one would suspect them of having done

22 anything. Mr. Latinovic himself agreed to become commander of that unit.

23 He was a reserve officer of the former JNA so he had the professional

24 skills involved and he asked me whether I wanted to be assistant for

25 information in that unit. So that is how I know that he was against this.

Page 20124

1 Q. All right. And then we see above, before we get to conclusion,

2 there is a long discussion about the Petrovac medical centre and we see

3 that it's stated that the government of the Serbian region Krajina Banja

4 Luka is the organisational organ and it will certainly determine in its

5 decisions what will be financed by funds. Was this in relation to funds

6 required for the purchase of essential medical supplies, as we can see?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Thank you. You can put that away. And could you have a look now,

9 please, at P236, which is the next meeting of the Crisis Staff for that

10 same day -- I'm sorry, it's the following day, I beg your pardon. And

11 there we see that the agenda proposed by Mr. Novakovic as the president

12 was first that conclusions adopted by the Autonomous Region of Krajina

13 Crisis Staff. Under item 1 the president of the Crisis Staff briefed

14 those present on the conclusions adopted by the AR Krajina Crisis Staff in

15 Banja Luka and then this: Subregions of the municipalities forwarded

16 certain proposals to the AR Krajina government for a prompt organisation

17 of the army and regulations of essential services in order to facilitate

18 government functions and relations between the Krajina government and the

19 municipalities on its territory.

20 Now, we don't see anything further was said about that. Do you

21 recall that discussion? Because you were apparently there.

22 A. I was there. The technical secretary took notes. I cannot

23 remember individually what various participants in the discussions said

24 but the topics discussed at this meeting, on the 10th of June, were

25 brought up on a variety of occasions later as well, so what is obvious is

Page 20125

1 that it was discussed at this meeting and not only at this meeting.

2 Q. Yes. All that I want to know is whether you're able to tell us

3 whether this bit about the subregions forwarding certain proposals relates

4 back to those conclusions of the 7th of June? If you can't remember, say

5 so straight away.

6 A. I think that this conclusion was aimed at that, to ask the AR

7 Krajina to function in the way in which it had been proclaimed, that is to

8 say to establish functional organs of authority and government, because

9 definitely they had proclaimed themselves as such but they barely

10 functioned if at all in certain areas.

11 Q. All right. And which areas were those?

12 A. The area of the economy. They hardly functioned there at all. In

13 the area of health care, not the basic prerequisites were there, in terms

14 of financing health care and so on. Also, in the area of schooling.

15 Pension and health funds were not being replenished properly. Salaries

16 were hardly ever paid. Quite simply there was a societal collapse. The

17 state of war had already started and such things considered of -- were

18 considered to be of vital jeopardy in terms of everything that was going

19 on. When you ask me about those conclusions, the answer is no, because we

20 can see from these minutes that for us, population resettlement was not an

21 issue at all. It was not topical at all. Because of the actual numbers

22 involved, and the actual relations involved, we never thought that we were

23 jeopardised in any way by the Muslims. At least not those from the area

24 of our municipality.

25 Q. All right. On that topic, this is something you talked about in

Page 20126

1 the interview at page 74, by the 9th of June, were people, Muslims,

2 non-Serbs, wanting to leave the municipality?

3 A. I've already said that they wanted this but because of everything

4 that happened, and it's my understanding that safety was under control so

5 to speak or had safety been under control and if there weren't such

6 incidents like the one in Biscani and some others, they would not have

7 asked to be resettled.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. I think they asked for it only because they felt threatened.

10 Q. Could you have a look, I think you refer to this in your own

11 diary, if you look at page -- our page 93, for the 9th of June, your

12 entry, it's on the opposite side where you talk about vacations. At the

13 bottom of the page, that page, you talk about departure of citizens from

14 Petrovac, under -- sorry, questions to be raised with the Crisis Staff,

15 departure of citizens from Petrovac. So was this becoming a problem?

16 A. This is the 9th of June?

17 Q. M'hm.

18 A. Yes, yes. This could have been or rather it most probably had to

19 do with the departure of Muslims from Petrovac.

20 Q. Yes. All right, so it was starting, at the very least?

21 A. I think so. Perhaps even earlier, people who had the opportunity

22 to leave Petrovac did leave it earlier, on an individual basis.

23 Q. All right. And then can we look, please, at the conclusions --

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour we will come to that. I don't know why

25 you're being handed it at this stage.

Page 20127












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20128

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree, Ms. Korner. It misled me completely.

2 MS. KORNER: I think if the Registry waits until we get to it and

3 then we will hand it in.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thanks.


6 Q. Conclusions, please, under item 2, this is -- sorry, the

7 conclusions under item 3, the military command must apply to the civilian

8 authorities for any mobilisation of people, material goods or equipment.

9 In other words -- does that mean if they wanted to -- if the military

10 command wanted more people, goods or equipment, they had to apply to the

11 Crisis Staff or the assembly if it was sitting?

12 A. This is on my page number 2.

13 Q. Yes. It's under item 3, I'm sorry, in -- I'm sorry, this is back

14 to the -- I'm so sorry, the minutes of the meeting I want to go back to,

15 not your diary, under Exhibit P236, under the item 3, where the --

16 Mr. Brankovic?

17 A. I found it.

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. I have found it, yes.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. Your conclusion is correct. Formally, the military command was

22 supposed to address the National Defence department, that is a civilian

23 authority. However, they carried out arbitrary mobilisation of personnel,

24 notably material resources. For example, they would mobilise all the cars

25 that they liked. They just get the driver out, take his papers for the

Page 20129

1 car from him, and they would just take the car. This was not real

2 mobilisation. It was basically theft. Later on, according to the law,

3 the state was supposed to pay for these vehicles if they were damaged or

4 lost. That is why there was a conflict between the civilian authorities

5 and the military command. That is one of the reasons for these clashes.

6 Q. All right. And then, under 2, I want to ask you about, the

7 Petrovac municipal staff remains in its full composition but it will be

8 resubordinated to the military command until a written decision or decree

9 regulating its status is issued by the government of the Autonomous Region

10 of Krajina. What was that about?

11 A. This was about the Territorial Defence staff. Its status was not

12 regulated legally in that transition period. That is the staff that was

13 headed by Mr. Vrzina.

14 Q. Right. I think that's all we need, thank you very much, on that

15 document.

16 Now, can we just move through -- yes. Could we move, please, to

17 the 13th of June, in your diary, please? Page -- I'm sorry, Your Honours,

18 page 100. And at the same time, could you be handed, please, P1876? Now,

19 you record the meeting of the 33rd session of the Crisis Staff and we can

20 see that, although I think there is an error, maybe it's in our

21 translation. Yes, it is, Your Honour. It's been -- in the translation,

22 it's clear from the original it's the 13th of June, under minutes as well

23 although it's been translated as 16th of June. I don't think that

24 matters.

25 Now, the agenda, again, this time I think it's clear you were

Page 20130

1 actually taking the notes as well?

2 A. I was the note taker and I think that this is the 13th of June.

3 Q. Right. When you were taking the notes, was that notes that you

4 kept in your diary which you then expanded on or were you taking, which

5 you then typed up, or did you actually write them out by hand at the

6 time?

7 A. When I was note taker, then I would as a rule write things down in

8 my own notebook or perhaps sometimes on a piece of paper. That is where I

9 would actually write the draft, to act as a reminder later, and then as

10 soon as the meeting would end, then I would dictate the minutes to a

11 typist and then I would take it to the president for him to take a look,

12 and if everything was all right, then he would sign the minutes. That is

13 why as a rule all of my minutes were signed because they had been verified

14 and at the following meeting, whenever I would be the -- whenever I was

15 the note taker at the previous meeting and this is not included in the

16 minutes then it would be submitted to the Crisis Staff for verification.

17 Q. Right. Okay. If we move fairly quickly through this, the agenda

18 item number 1 a decision on how to accommodate the -- I think it's a

19 military post, isn't it?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And then under that, we see if we look to the decision, you will

22 see that after that -- I'm sorry, item number 2 was a report on the

23 security situation. In the discussion that followed, it was stated that

24 there was some negligence which however did not seriously affect the

25 security station. Disarmament of the paramilitary formations and citizens

Page 20131

1 who are in illegal possession of arms is to be continued and brought to a

2 close. And I think you've already explained who was being disarmed. But

3 then this. After that, they unanimously reached the following: The

4 bodies in charge are to finalise activities regarding the disarmament of

5 paramilitary formations and citizens who illegally possess weapons,

6 appropriate repressive measures are to be taken against individuals who

7 took part in the illegal armament of the paramilitary organisation and

8 citizens. What was that referring to? Or who? Who were the people who

9 had been illegally arming what you've already told us effectively was the

10 Muslim population?

11 A. Well, in essence, I myself never had any knowledge in terms of who

12 it could have been. There were rumours that they were their leaders, as

13 Mr. Ivanic mentioned on that day, or somebody else perhaps, I can't

14 remember exactly. However, there were rumours that this was done by some

15 Serbs who had smuggled weapons. This other rumour is something I know a

16 bit more about, namely once a security colonel came to see the president

17 and he warned about that, that some Serbs were bringing in weapons and

18 selling them to Muslims but I never found out, nor did anybody else ever

19 find out officially or could have anybody found out, about who had done

20 this. Especially as far as the Muslims are concerned. In my presence,

21 not a single name was mentioned.

22 Q. All right. Then can we move, please, to the next decision under

23 5, where we see that the representatives requested a postal service,

24 that's the representatives, I think, of the military post, to make it

25 impossible for the enemy to wire tap conversations. They also requested

Page 20132

1 the connection of the Petrovac post office to the Banja Luka postal

2 service and to implement the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff

3 decisions concerning the removal of the executive staff of non-Serb

4 ethnicity. Before we look at those decisions, are you saying -- was this

5 the military saying you, the Crisis Staff, should carry out the

6 instructions of the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff?

7 A. That's right, yes. It was the army which requested it. Well,

8 they -- the army had lots of requests and demands put to us. They kept

9 bringing pressure on us to have the director of the post office removed,

10 dismissed, because he was a Muslim. But he did his work well so there was

11 no reason.

12 Q. Yes. In fact it looks like this was -- it doesn't actually make

13 that clear -- okay, if we very quickly, the decisions that dealt with

14 that, we can see, perhaps Your Honour we needn't look at them again. They

15 were on the 11th of May, the 13th of May, and the 26th of May. Were you

16 aware of those decisions by the regional Crisis Staff? Don't worry

17 about -- well, first of all, were you aware of these?

18 A. The Crisis Staff decision concerning what? The autonomous

19 region? I'm sorry I didn't understand.

20 Q. I'm trying to do this too quickly. Could you have the gazettes

21 again, please? 227. Can you look at the conclusions for the 11th of May,

22 which are number 7 in the gazette? Management posts in the Krajina

23 enterprises must be filled by persons who are absolutely loyal to the

24 Serbian republic. You see that? That's under number 5.

25 A. I can't see it but I did see it somewhere today.

Page 20133

1 Q. I'm sorry. If you look at -- I'm sorry, it's a bit of a mess, I

2 know.

3 A. I think we got the pages and the documents mixed up. Yes. The

4 pages are not in the right order. But yes, I was familiar with the

5 contents of that decision, that there was such a decision and I suppose

6 that the army command is requesting it in this relation. We resisted it

7 for a very long time but eventually this man was dismissed and I met him

8 after that and he was very cut up about the whole thing.

9 Q. In fact, dismissals of non-Serbs were taking place, weren't they,

10 in Petrovac? Whatever you personally felt about it.

11 A. Yes. They were taking place.

12 Q. All right. And I don't think we need anything else on that

13 meeting. Thank you very much. Can we look, please, then, at the meeting

14 for the next day, the 14th of June, which is Exhibit P245?

15 MS. KORNER: 245, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Previously, Ms. Korner, I mean just to make sure

17 that I am not mistaken but previously you had referred to the -- the

18 witness to the meetings of the 11th May, the 13th of May and the 26th of

19 May.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes, I didn't take him through them but Your Honours

21 can see them in the gazettes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So now we are moving to a different topic?

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I just wanted to make sure.

25 MS. KORNER: You're absolutely right. We are now back to the

Page 20134

1 Petrovac meetings, not the regional meetings.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

3 MS. KORNER: This is all on the same topic.

4 Q. Again, I think you took the minutes for this one, didn't you,

5 Mr. Radojko, judge?

6 A. I did, yes.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is an AID document, in passing.

8 Q. Item number 1, Mr. Novakovic opens the discussion and pointed out

9 that it was necessary to adopt positions at the level of the Autonomous

10 Region of Krajina on how to deal with inhabitants who are not loyal to the

11 Serbian republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This meeting was quite a late

12 meeting. It looks like 20 past 10.00 in the evening. That day, there was

13 another meeting of these municipalities, and this time in Korcanica, I

14 think, on the 14th of June. Do you know if Mr. Novakovic had attended a

15 meeting that day?

16 A. I don't. He perhaps told us, but because of the sequence of those

17 meetings, it's quite possible that he went to Korcanica and therefore

18 conveyed these meeting for a later time, for a later hour so that he could

19 come back.

20 Q. All right. Just to look at -- I don't think this time you did

21 attend the meeting. Yes, I'm sorry, the meeting in Korcanica. Okay.

22 Now, then, we see that Mr. Vrzina reported on the situation in the

23 municipality and conveyed the brigade command's request that Muslims be

24 excluded from the work of the municipal assembly administrative organs and

25 that arrested persons suspected on reasonable grounds of participating in

Page 20135

1 undermining the Serbian republic defence or preparing an attack on its

2 institutions and citizens should not be released from detention before

3 trial. And then requested that Muslim inhabitants who had pledged loyalty

4 to the Serbian republic be included in defence preparations.

5 So again, the military was reinforcing what it had said the

6 previous day, about Muslims effectively being excluded and indeed -- well,

7 excluded. Is that right?

8 A. Yes. It is right. The army never stopped putting pressure. They

9 had learned that there was an intention to form a unit made of Muslims and

10 incorporated in the defence and they opposed it. And also when he talks

11 about these detainees, Mr. Gacesa, who was the chief of police said and I

12 don't think you can find it in the minutes, told the president that the

13 police practically had no evidence against the majority of those detainees

14 and that they would have to release them, and of course, the members of

15 the military command learned about that and they spread this information

16 around the units on the front and therefore the pressure not to release

17 them, so this conclusion is not based on law but it is a factual

18 conclusion.

19 Q. All right. You can put that away and I'm going to just ask you to

20 look at the record of the meeting of the, as it's now called Sansko-Unska

21 area which is P247, just to ask you about one aspect of what was said. I

22 think it's a proposal, if we look at the page in our copy it begins

23 00471394, joint positions, I think it must be to be taken, at the 15th of

24 June session in Banja Luka. Because the date of this document is the

25 12th -- the 14th of June at 1200 hours. We think the work of the Crisis

Page 20136

1 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina under wartime circumstances

2 should be much more serious, that its politicians and experts should pay

3 much more attention to the problems in all constituent municipalities of

4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Very much, sir, what you've expressed

5 to us today, that you didn't think it was working properly. Is that

6 right?

7 A. It is, yes. You're quite right.

8 Q. And then there is a next suggestion, we propose that Vojo

9 Kupresanin be appointed president of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

10 Region of Krajina given the position he currently occupies as president of

11 the assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Now, Mr. Brdjanin, were

12 you aware, had been the vice-president of the assembly? Did you know from

13 anything that was said to you by Mr. Novakovic why Mr. Brdjanin had become

14 the president of the Crisis Staff?

15 A. Well, Mr. Novakovic never talked about it, so one knew or didn't

16 know such things, and I knew about Mr. Kupresanin more than about

17 Mr. Brdjanin from the media rather, Brdjanin would turn up as a signatory

18 or something but believe me, I never even looked what office he indicated

19 on whose behalf he was signing it. But when decisions are made you just

20 don't look up those things.

21 Q. What was the view that was held by Mr. Novakovic or you yourself,

22 perhaps we ought to split this. It's a double question. Do you know what

23 views Mr. Novakovic held about Mr. Brdjanin at all?

24 A. Well, Mr. Novakovic and as far as the officials are concerned,

25 Brdjanin, Kupresanin, others, my opinions were usually based on the

Page 20137

1 opinions of Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Milanovic, who was a MP, and other people

2 who communicated with them. My impression was that they didn't think

3 particularly favourably of Mr. Brdjanin, that is they did not think he was

4 up to the task and they mostly recounted various anecdotes and jokes about

5 him. Mr. Novakovic was a true leader and on various occasions I heard him

6 talk with Mr. Karadzic and other people from the top-most ranks of the

7 Serb leadership so that he did not depend on Mr. Brdjanin. He was not

8 subordinated to him in any way or anybody else in Banja Luka. But it was

9 thought generally that the Banja Luka SDS leadership was not good and they

10 were frequently changed and a couple of those SDS presidents in Banja Luka

11 were prone to alcohol so -- and these are commonly known facts.

12 Q. Right. Now you say that he wasn't -- Mr. Novakovic wasn't

13 personally subordinated to him in any way or anyone else in Banja Luka.

14 But as we have been going through all these decisions of the Crisis Staff

15 in Petrovac, the decisions made by the regional Crisis Staff, what sort of

16 impact were they having? I mean you refer to them quite a lot.

17 A. I just mentioned what kind of personal relations there were. But

18 I did not -- they did not affect decisively the functioning of the

19 administration and Mr. Novakovic personally urged everybody to respect the

20 decisions regardless of the persons behind them, whether it has to do with

21 the military or the Krajina, that is AR Krajina or the Serb Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is if one thought that the decisions were

23 purposeful they were put through. Only the decisions which made no sense,

24 which served no purpose, and did not have anything to do with our area,

25 they were not implemented or could not be, especially those which were

Page 20138

1 quite illegal and could therefore entail very grave consequences at a

2 later stage.

3 Q. So you say decisions which made no sense, served no purpose. In

4 other words they weren't applicable to the conditions in your area?

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me, Judge I am going object to the leading

6 question.

7 MS. KORNER: I thought we had made that clear but I will rephrase

8 the question.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please rephrase the question because you are

10 suggesting to the witness as well.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, I thought we had already been through it.

12 Q. What do you mean by decisions which made no sense and served no

13 purpose and did not have anything to do with our area?

14 A. I personally warned Mr. Novakovic against a number of such

15 decisions, decisions which were unenforceable, one of such was to carry

16 out complete mobilisation, and the mobilisation had been done and over

17 with a long time ago and it came from a source which was simply not

18 acceptable. Decisions which will not mean any movement forward or do not

19 serve any purpose. It is illegal to dismiss persons who are allegedly

20 disloyal. First, you cannot arbitrarily decide who is loyal and who

21 isn't. I remember, for instance, an event when we were expected to

22 dismiss our clerks, our personnel, and I told President Novakovic, I

23 believe that Latinovic was present, that that would be a very dangerous

24 decision because at the end of the war, when it was all over, and when

25 the -- an end was put to the chaos, the municipality will need ten times

Page 20139

1 its normal budget to pay compensation to all these people. That will have

2 to recognise them, that will have to compensate for all the pain and

3 everything that they had suffered through it all so that in relation to

4 this decision, we told people to just wait, that is we froze their jobs,

5 we did not dismiss them, and that was the suggestion that we gave to other

6 companies to act on their own discretion, their own discretion, we simply

7 did not want to assume the responsibility for anything like it.

8 Q. But you did in fact, I thought we had already dealt with this, you

9 did in fact dismiss people, didn't you?

10 A. Well, formally, they were not dismissed, but actually they did

11 stop working, but we provided the basis, we provided the grounds so that

12 after it was all over, they could get their jobs back again and so that

13 seniority, years of service, could again be included, could be added,

14 because these people were qualified people and we cared about the

15 services, about the service that they could render.

16 Q. All right. So you didn't approve of the decision, you thought in

17 your view that it was illegal, and you tried to get round it but did you

18 actually implement it?

19 A. Well, I told you, it was implemented.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. In fact.

22 Q. That's a long way around.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a long way around but basically my mind is

24 still working on this. What would have been the consequences or

25 consequence or consequences had the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Petrovac not

Page 20140

1 implemented that decision, had they kept all those employees in their

2 employment? What would you have expected to happen? Or what was the

3 feeling at the time if those decisions were not implemented?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there is no doubt that we

5 would have been removed from the places which we held. There were two

6 mechanisms that they used to bring pressure. One was informal, through

7 people, through the population, and they would simply -- they would apply

8 various methods to start hounding us, to start protesting against what we

9 did, on various occasions armed men broke into our offices and there was

10 also a different pressure constantly brought through the army, and you can

11 see it from the evidence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It's okay.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And we just tried to weigh the two

14 and see which evil would be a lesser evil.

15 MS. KORNER: All right.

16 Q. Now, can we please --

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour -- I'm sorry, I'll start again.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Ms. Korner. I interrupted you.

19 MS. KORNER: No, no, no. It's quite all right. I was going to

20 move on anyhow. If Mr. Cunningham doesn't object I would like to lead

21 because it's the quickest way of doing it about these different signatures

22 on these documents that we looked at on the 16th of June. It's in the

23 interview at page 76 is there any real dispute about this.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't have any problems leading on this topic.

25 MS. KORNER: Right. Thank you very much.

Page 20141

1 Q. All right. Could you have, please -- you can take that document

2 back again, and you need to have now, please, P183 -- no, I'm sorry, yes,

3 1833, and then 1877.1 and 1877.2? Before we look at the contents, you

4 looked at these I think in the interview, judge, and you were able to

5 explain why they had different signatures.

6 A. You want me to explain that?

7 Q. I'm just going to put it to you, if you -- as briefly as I can,

8 and if you can just tell me if you still adhere to your answer: That the

9 technical service would produce various copies of the minutes that on this

10 occasion were taken, and would then seek the signatures of the people who

11 attended the meeting, but if she couldn't reach them all at the same time

12 before copies were sent away, each would sign the available copy. Is that

13 right?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. And I think you took the view when you looked at them that

16 probably the original version is the one that we have as our Exhibit

17 P1833. Which has got written in the top, "Crisis Staff, 57/92." And the

18 word in the original.

19 A. Correct. But basically, they are all originals except that the

20 signatures are not, but in terms of the contents, they are all that.

21 Q. All right. And I think you also told us that after the meetings,

22 the notes would be transformed into the typed set of minutes, some would

23 be filed in the archives, and others would be used, as you put it, for

24 operational matters, in other words were they sent to the people who

25 needed them?

Page 20142

1 A. Well, in principle, somebody would come to the municipal hall,

2 they would be given it personally and that is why you don't have

3 signatures everywhere.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. And those which were accessible to a clerk, they would immediately

6 sign it, so you can see that Novakovic signed here so it means that he was

7 simply available.

8 Q. Right. If you just hold on, then, to P1833, the original ones,

9 and give the other ones back and I want to ask you about the contents. I

10 think you recorded this meeting in your own notes, if you look at your

11 diary for the 16th of June and it's our page 106.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. All right. If we look at the agenda, discussion on the situation,

14 the problem of the Muslims and the army, the military pressure is still

15 carrying on, and then Mr. Gacesa talked about a list of some 40 people or

16 so considered to be organised as a separate group or to have acted from

17 fundamentalist Islamic positions. The operation to disarm Muslim

18 paramilitary units and citizens is continued so at that stage it was made

19 absolutely clear, was it, in the Crisis Staff meeting that paramilitary

20 units and citizens were Muslims? Is that right?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Most of the persons included in the above-mentioned list

23 have been found to possess illegal weapons. There are two possible

24 options, one that a certain number of persons who could be a potential

25 threat be isolated but not on the premises of the SJB, and the other that

Page 20143

1 extremists be isolated outside Petrovac. The discussion continued and the

2 view prevailed that the isolation of extremists outside Petrovac would be

3 dangerous to themselves and that it was best to isolate them in a well

4 guarded facility on the outskirts of town and then decision: All

5 individuals who possess illegal weapons or have been registered as Muslim

6 extremists thus posing a potential threat shall be detained and held in

7 custody.

8 Now, what was this register of Muslim extremists?

9 A. Officially, such a register could not be established. To the best

10 of my knowledge this was done on the basis of initial operative knowledge

11 obtained by the police themselves. Some people did indeed have weapons

12 that were found, as far as I know, and other people were put on this list

13 according to their own arbitrary assessments. You see, when they say here

14 the 13 are inaccessible, these are people who had already left the

15 territory of the municipality.

16 Q. Well, I'd like you to have a look, please, at P1840. It's jumping

17 forward a little bit in time. Lists for persons for whom Bosanski

18 Petrovac public security station has ordered isolation and I think you saw

19 this during the interview. All Muslims; is that right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And then they say that 29 people were taken to do labour at Kozila

22 but we'll come on to Kozila in a moment, on the 1st of July, did you know

23 any of them personally?

24 A. I knew a man here.

25 Q. Which one is that?

Page 20144

1 A. I'm looking at the rest of the names to see whether I knew anybody

2 else. I knew one for sure, or actually I knew two. One was Midhat Druzic

3 nicknamed Midho. I knew him by sight. I know him when I read the

4 nickname too. But I knew Fuad Ferizovic better the one nicknamed Beli,

5 because he's a lawyer too. So we had professional contacts as well.

6 Q. Would you have described him as a Muslim extremist? First of all

7 him, first of all, number 9, Midhat Druzic, would you have described him

8 as a Muslim extremist?

9 A. Well, I don't know, I did not really contact him. I just heard

10 about him. I heard that he was expressing some extremist views. In

11 essence this was a man with hardly any education and in my assessment a

12 person with a modest IQ. At one point, apparently he said that after the

13 SDA won the elections, he would -- or rather, the Serbs when they marry

14 would bring their wives to spend their wedding nights with Muslims. Many

15 people were bitter because of there statement and that's why they

16 considered him to be that.

17 Q. What about Fuad Ferizovic?

18 A. I know Fuad Ferizovic better. We did not agree about certain

19 legal positions and things like that but I think that he was considered to

20 be an extremist because he presented some kind of radical claims, perhaps

21 in a political sense, this did not correspond to what people really liked

22 to hear but I personally had discussions with him without any problems

23 whatsoever. I don't have anything special to say in terms of my own

24 appraisal of him. As for him being an extremist, I don't know about any

25 such thing and we would really have to look at what a Muslim extremist

Page 20145

1 really is. If somebody just says something a bit sharply, I don't think

2 that he should be called an extremist. I know that he was in detention,

3 though, his father told me that once.

4 Q. Do you know what happened to these people when they were locked

5 up?

6 A. I don't know about the rest but as far as Ferizovic is concerned,

7 I heard from his father that a policeman beat him up in prison. Ferizovic

8 is a person who has a bit of a big mouth, if I can put it that way, and

9 possibly that is why it happened. At any rate, his father complained that

10 a policeman had beaten him up and this man had been a refugee from Bihac.

11 At least that's what he told me. As for others, I asked around after this

12 detention centre was disbanded. I did not hear of anyone else having been

13 beaten. However, all of these people are alive and they all know what had

14 actually happened.

15 Q. As far as the Crisis Staff was concerned, going back to that

16 meeting of the 16th of June, they agreed to order those persons who were

17 registered as extremists to be detained as well as those apparently

18 possessing illegal weapons?

19 A. Well, yes. That's the decision that was reached by the Crisis

20 Staff.

21 Q. All right. And then under the same decision, if you go back to

22 that, there is the Bosnaplast being set up as a detention facility, and

23 the SJB will remove all Muslim owners of weekend cottages from the Ostrelj

24 weekend settlement. Why was that?

25 A. According to these minutes, and this is simply jogging my memory,

Page 20146

1 this was supposed to be in a big family home near Bosnaplast. I don't

2 know why it was transferred to Kozila. As for Ostrelj, I believe that

3 this was done because the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps, their

4 officers, clashed with the municipal authorities in Drvar and the

5 municipal authorities and the people of Drvar explicitly asked for the

6 military to be sent out of their town. The military therefore asked for

7 all weekend cottages to be emptied in Ostrelj. So Serb houses were

8 emptied as well and handed over to the military for their use. As for the

9 Muslims, this was probably for security reasons so that they wouldn't sort

10 of spy on the army.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. You can hand that back now. And could

12 have you a look, please, at P1834? Now, this is addressed to the Petrovac

13 radio station. The position of the Crisis Staff is that radio stations

14 should serve solely the needs of the present situation, i.e. state of war,

15 the goal of raising the morale of the Serbian people, news, battlefield.

16 All unverified information and unclear news which might result in the

17 spread of misinformation removed. You should broadcast as many programmes

18 as possible with text, music et cetera, et cetera. At this stage, did the

19 radio Petrovac contain any non-Serb employees?

20 A. Not before and not then. At that time, there certainly wasn't

21 anyone there who was not a Serb.

22 Q. And as far as you were concerned, did the Crisis Staff -- as far

23 as the Crisis Staff was concerned, not you personally, was what the media

24 put out important?

25 A. Well, it was considered to be relatively important because this

Page 20147

1 radio station's programmes could be heard only within the town itself. It

2 was a weak radio station. I personally was entrusted with the task of

3 finding a stronger transmitter for it. You remember the case of

4 Ciganovic, but it was considered to be important so that some news would

5 not be broadcast that would cause any kind of unrest.

6 Q. All right. It says the purpose of such programmes would be to

7 persuade the Serbs in these difficult times when the war is being waged by

8 forces wishing to annihilate the Serbian nation, that the people is the

9 army and the army is the people. All programmes must be made in such a

10 way that the Serbs understand they must fight for their salvation, freedom

11 and territory.

12 Was it your view that war was being waged by forces wishing to

13 annihilate the entire Serbian nation?

14 A. That is what was believed.

15 Q. And to persuade the Serbian nation that the people is the army and

16 the army is the people; was that important?

17 A. It was important because this caused rifts between the military

18 command and the civilian authorities, and the members of the command

19 through the members of the military who went home often spread some kind

20 of misinformation, along the following lines: That the municipal

21 leadership was disloyal, not interested in the outcome of the war and so

22 on and so forth. Therefore, the president, by way of the radio, tried to

23 deal with these negative rumours and refute them, at least up to a degree.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. You can give that document back again.

25 And now can we move, please, finally, on this topic of disloyal Serbs, I'd

Page 20148

1 like you to have a look, please, at Exhibit P1837. Which is a minutes of

2 the executive committee dated the 29th of June, and do you recognise --

3 it's a bad copy. Do you recognise the signature there?

4 A. Yes. The signature is of the president of the executive board,

5 Mr. Bogdan Latinovic.

6 Q. And there we see that pursuant to the law, and the Autonomous

7 Region of Krajina Banja Luka Crisis Staff decision number 03531/92, the

8 executive committee adopts the following: Worker Senada Medin [phoen],

9 accounting department manager, is granted leave without pay from the 29th

10 of June until further notice.

11 Is this what you're talking about, about not actually dismissing

12 people but granting them leave without pay?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Because if you look at the statement of reasons, we see, which is

15 further on, the Crisis Staff decision establishes the obligation to remove

16 from positions specified in item 1 of the decision all workers, et cetera,

17 et cetera. Also for reasons of personal security, in accordance with the

18 said regulations. Now, can you have a look, please, at Exhibit P688, and

19 just confirm that that is the decision that's referred to? I think all we

20 need to note is that it's got the same number that you referred to,

21 Mr. Latinovic referred to in the executive committee, and it's dated the

22 22nd of June, and this document is dated some five days later. And then

23 finally on this topic, could you look, please, at P1879? That's a letter

24 addressed to the Crisis Staff with the subject of the implementation of

25 the steps and decisions -- I'm sorry, haven't got it yet.

Page 20149

1 Now, it appears to be Mr. Novakovic's -- it's his typed document

2 but who did actually sign that?

3 A. According to what I can see, it was signed by Mr. Novakovic.

4 Q. All right. Okay. And that's a letter telling the Crisis Staff

5 what you've done and you say or I'm sorry, Mr. Novakovic says the steps

6 have been implemented in all public enterprises and in socially owned

7 enterprises, all members of the police of Muslim nationality have been

8 sacked from their jobs, employees of Muslim nationality were sacked

9 earlier from their jobs in the municipal assembly administration organs.

10 So judge, from what you say, are you saying that Mr. Novakovic was saying

11 they had been dismissed when actually all that had happened is that they

12 had been sent on leave without pay?

13 A. That's right. You can see from this document that it has to do

14 with a few workers who are ethnic Serbs as well. That's the criterion of

15 responding to military call-ups.

16 Q. Right. And then the steps set by the Krajina ARK -- AR autonomous

17 region Crisis Staff are in the stage of being implemented in the Serb

18 Republic army units in our territory. Taking into account that not all

19 staff could have been sacked from their jobs until they completed the

20 necessary handover. All right, thank you.

21 Now, that same day, and could have you a look, please, now at

22 P1880? Did Mr. Novakovic also send a request for a special purpose police

23 detachment to Stojan Zupljanin at the CSB in Banja Luka, although it's

24 actually called the MUP here but --

25 A. Yes.

Page 20150

1 Q. We have witnessed drastic violations of public order and piece as

2 well as growing crime, curfews are still -- during police curfews a still

3 unidentified group has been shooting, demolishing and looting taverns,

4 shops and kiosks owned by citizens of Muslim nationality. But since

5 recently also those owned by citizens of Serbian nationality. Mass theft

6 where combat or cleansing operations are taking place or have already

7 taken place, due to insufficient training or excessive tolerance, blah --

8 and so on and so forth, we are therefore asking you immediately to send

9 one special purpose police detachment to Petrovac to bring peace and

10 prevent the decreasing morale amongst part of our population. Was that an

11 accurate description in your view of what was happening in Petrovac around

12 the 25th of June?

13 A. This is a good, accurate description. That's exactly what was

14 happening, except that I personally do not know of any attacks against

15 Serb property, especially not any meaningful ones because I would have

16 remembered that, this was simply added in order to have a political

17 balance but basically it was Muslim property that was imperilled. That is

18 why they asked for outside help because there could be no local

19 intervention because of local friendships and various family ties and so

20 on and so forth. They thought that if somebody came from the outside,

21 they could even resort to force when attacking looters and plunderers. As

22 for the rest, it is all the way it's been written here.

23 Q. All right. And again, just so there is no doubt about this, do

24 you recognise the signature of Mr. Novakovic?

25 A. I recognise the signature, but also in terms of its content, the

Page 20151

1 document is an authentic one.

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 Can you then go, please, to your diary for the same date? Page

4 113, Your Honours.

5 And I just want to ask you about this: You say 15th extraordinary

6 session of the executive board today, implementation of the Krajina

7 autonomous region decision. Are we referring back again to the -- about

8 the decision in respect of dismissal of persons not loyal?

9 A. The 25th of June notes? Is that what you're referring to?

10 Q. Yes. It starts Slobodan Tadic at the top.

11 A. That's right. Yes. In these notes, under item 4, I wrote down a

12 particular remark, that solutions -- or rather decisions should be drafted

13 as of the 29th of June onwards, in terms of unpaid leave of absence,

14 that's the document that we looked at a while ago because this name,

15 Senada, this has to do with the name of the person who was given this

16 leave of absence. Dinka and Omer are also Muslims, Dinka worked in the

17 financial sector and Omer worked in the land survey department. That is

18 as far as I can remember. I was not their immediate superior but as far

19 as I can remember, that's the way it was, and yes, it does have to do with

20 what we were discussing a while ago.

21 Q. All right. And during the course --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you finishing?

23 MS. KORNER: Just one last question, Your Honour.

24 Q. I think you've already explained it but in relation to that

25 decision of the Crisis Staff, as -- you gave the answer in interview, this

Page 20152

1 is at page 82, that the letter that you got from the Crisis Staff or the

2 decision didn't have the form of an order but it was obligatory, it was

3 mandatory. Do you still adhere to that answer?

4 A. I still adhere to that answer. That's the way it is. You can see

5 for yourselves here, from these documents, that that's exactly the way it

6 was. I've already said that a personal relationships vis-a-vis certain

7 office holders were one thing whereas the observance of rules in terms of

8 what had been established is a completely different thing because it would

9 be very dangerous, for example, for the president or for the entire Crisis

10 Staff if they had not accepted and observed the decisions that were

11 formally binding on them.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you, sir.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have a 25-minute break starting from

14 now. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, very quickly, I will have lost half an

18 hour today. Can I have an extra half hour on Monday?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham?

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I believe I'll need the full three hours or the

21 full day for cross.

22 MS. KORNER: If necessary, Your Honour, the witness that follows

23 we can complete even losing part to Mr. Cunningham but I hope Your Honours

24 think that this evidence is important enough to take it in full.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: For us, every evidence is important. Let's take it

Page 20153

1 up from there. This witness definitely, I mean, is an important witness.

2 There is no question about it.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to put any restrictions on you and

5 on Mr. Cunningham.

6 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful. We will just sort it out ourselves

7 with the following witnesses.


9 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, there was one more document I needed you to look at and I

11 knew I was missing something.

12 MS. KORNER: It's a new document, Your Honours. It's got

13 disclosure 7.61 on it. I think the ERN number is 02933096.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't have it.

15 MS. KORNER: It was added in that little pile, the extra little

16 pile that we gave you but we'll have it put on the ELMO.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But my -- anyway, let's see.

18 MS. KORNER: It's on the ELMO, Your Honours.

19 Q. This is a letter addressed to the timber processing company and

20 again we are going back to the status of the persons of Muslim

21 nationality. It's a later date -- document, the 21st of August. It comes

22 under the signature block of Mr. Latinovic. Who actually signed that?

23 A. I signed it on behalf of Mr. Latinovic, and I also wrote the text

24 following his instructions --

25 Q. All right.

Page 20154

1 A. -- after a meeting.

2 Q. And you enclose, I don't think we need to go through that but you

3 enclose a copy of that decision we already looked at.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made Exhibit P2452?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: All right.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Has the air conditioning gone off in this courtroom?

8 THE REGISTRAR: I've already asked them to lower it.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it's becoming smelly -- it's warm and it's

10 also, you can feel the staleness of the air. Anyway, let's continue, and

11 in the meantime, Madam Registrar, please, could you chase whoever.

12 THE REGISTRAR: I asked them to turn down the temperature to 16

13 but it's not working.

14 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid, Your Honours, I have to go back to the

15 1st of June because I missed one document.

16 Q. Could you have please Exhibit P1867?

17 Again, sir, these are a Crisis Staff meetings, the minutes, at --

18 held on the 29th of May, and I'll just check whether you had a note of

19 this in your diary. I don't think you do. But, sir, again, can you just

20 identify this? Is the signature on this occasion of the note taker on

21 there?

22 A. I think this is technical secretary's signature. I wasn't present

23 at the meeting, that is what my notes say. I don't recall it at all.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. I was at a meeting that took place after that and again I saw it

Page 20155

1 from the notes, attended by the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps and

2 other army representatives but that one was the 23rd session and this

3 seems to be the 22nd. Another reason why I think I wasn't present is that

4 a decision was adopted which fell -- which did not fall under the

5 municipal jurisdiction. That was the proclamation of the state of war. I

6 don't think that one could ever proclaim the state of war at the -- at a

7 local level.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. And you can't do it now.

10 Q. Sorry. And then you -- yes, because it goes on to say the

11 military command and the Crisis Staff must reach a complete coordination

12 with an aim to establishing control in the territory of the Petrovac

13 municipality. And then item 2, the Crisis Staff has also discussed the

14 situation regarding the emigration of some SDA representatives and has

15 concluded the best solution is the said representatives stay in Petrovac.

16 You weren't present, you say. Were you told about the conclusions of this

17 meeting, though?

18 A. No. But I know what this is about from other things that

19 happened. The SDA representatives who were councilmen and the MP asked

20 that they be enabled to move to Bihac. I do not know if they asked for it

21 personally on this occasion or somebody else but I know that the most

22 prominent Bosnian Muslim representatives were transferred by Mr. Dragan

23 Milanovic, and Dragan Ivanic and they did it surreptitiously. I learned

24 it from another source but I think that is an accurate information, that

25 is they were transferred by eminent Serbs, they helped them get out

Page 20156

1 because there was a major risk of their being killed during all that

2 disarray.

3 Q. Why did the Crisis Staff, however, decide that -- make a decision

4 that on the face of it saying they weren't going to be allowed to move

5 out?

6 A. Correct. Yes, that's true. That was the decision of the Crisis

7 Staff here and formally it was in force but this was done without

8 informing the public about it. The public learnt about it only later.

9 And I think that most of the ordinary people there do not know how they

10 got to Bihac to this day.

11 Q. Sorry, you misunderstand. What was the reason that the Crisis

12 Staff felt it had to say publicly that these people would not be allowed

13 to move?

14 A. I've already said it. The public pressure and especially the

15 pressure brought by members of military units who came from Petrovac, who

16 did it either through their commands or directly by way of some informal

17 groups.

18 Q. So public pressure wanted to ensure that the -- these particular

19 people should stay within Petrovac?

20 A. The public thought that they should be kept there, especially the

21 representative of the military command, Mr. Vrzina opposed it all the

22 time, and he always told us that that was what the army thought, but we

23 didn't trust his interpretations because we could hardly accept that he

24 went around and polled various soldiers on the front line, but they didn't

25 want the eminent Muslims be allowed to leave. What they were saying was

Page 20157

1 to keep able-bodied men and to let women and children go but we thought

2 that that would mean that they would be staying there as hostages and that

3 would be unacceptable for them and they told us explicitly that they

4 wouldn't do that, they didn't want to do it, and we ourselves also knew

5 that it wasn't possible. But since the formal Muslim representatives

6 since they were representatives of the Muslim authorities or parties,

7 there was a real danger that they might be killed because you saw that

8 that whole Muslim family and those people were neither extremists nor

9 disloyal and nevertheless the whole family was liquidated. From what

10 I learned, the reason behind that was simply blunder but in so far as

11 these other people were concerned, yes, their lives were in peril.

12 Q. Thank you very much, you can hand that document back. Can we go

13 back to where we were and could you look, please at P1838 which is the

14 minutes of the meeting of the 30th of June? You were present at that

15 meeting, I think, and as this is an AID-objected to document, can you

16 confirm that this is an authentic record?

17 A. Just a moment, please. Looking at the contents of the document,

18 I'd say that it is an authentic document, even if it is not signed.

19 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, the political and security situation was

20 discussed, and again, we are back to requests from soldiers for a more

21 radical attitude towards the Muslims of Petrovac, that's in the second

22 paragraph. And then the Muslims of Petrovac are behaving as if they were

23 wounded and showing great fear. More of them should be arrested and

24 isolated as a precaution, after which they should be given work

25 obligations because there will be a lot of harvesting to do.

Page 20158

1 Mr. Novakovic was saying that more should be arrested and isolated. Do

2 you know why he was saying that?

3 A. Because of the pressures that came from the army command,

4 Mr. Novakovic went directly because I think that -- I think the commander

5 was somewhere in the area of the village of Radic, towards Bihac, and I

6 think he went there.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. Or perhaps he went to Vrtoce -- no, no, no but the command post

9 was in Radic, yes, so yes, he went there and he is conveying the positions

10 of that command to arrest them and put them to work, but when a work unit

11 which was a proper work unit formally speaking to perform some jobs in

12 that same area then those self same soldiers threatened those men with

13 weapons and told them they would kill them all off. So the commander of

14 the work unit simply brought those people immediately back to Petrovac and

15 after that they didn't go out to work again. So on the one hand they

16 requested a work unit they wanted people to perform certain jobs and when

17 they go there to work then they are being attacked. So that in principle,

18 these are pressures calculated to produce an excessive situation, that

19 is if they do not meet their requests it's not good and when you do meet

20 them then it's again not good.

21 Q. Under conclusions until the prison in Kozila is made operational a

22 plan should be made to arrest and bring in under custody all Muslims fit

23 for military service who are thought to be capable of causing any harm to

24 the Serbs and then the persons responsible. So this conclusion was

25 anybody fit for any military age Muslim should be brought in, is that --

Page 20159

1 is that what happened?

2 A. Why, no, but able-bodied, those who could perhaps end up do

3 something wrong, that is some people perhaps at whose places weapons -- on

4 whom weapons or at whose places weapons were found and another group

5 perhaps just were arbitrarily pin-pointed by the police or those army

6 people. I do not know how they did that but I think it was done on the

7 basis of whatever condition -- convictions that they may have been

8 upholding at the time rather than on the basis of some reliable facts.

9 Q. All right. Can we now, please, move to deal effectively with the

10 movement out of the population? Could you have a look, please, first of

11 all, at P1841? That's the 2nd of July of 1992 or rather it's a report of

12 the previous day's meeting, you're present as an expert consultant, it

13 states there. I think we have seen that earlier. What was your

14 expertise, the legal expertise?

15 A. What is meant is legal knowledge. We've already seen how some of

16 the decisions, especially when I was absent from the meetings, how quite a

17 number of those decisions are very questionable and quite a number of them

18 unenforceable. My colleague, Mr. Sikman, is also a law graduate but at

19 those meetings, he was quite inactive and he simply never said anything

20 when people spoke lacking any legal grounds, he simply never commented on

21 that. So that a decision would be made that would not be legal or lawful.

22 Q. Right. And in fact, you also recorded notes in your own diary.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is page 117 but I don't think we

24 need to trouble to go to it.

25 Q. In -- under item 1 the security situation, the -- it's assessed as

Page 20160

1 a popular feeling of discontent especially directed towards Muslims after

2 the recent events on the front line and stress that the best and sure

3 solution for the protection of the Muslims would be to move the

4 population. He emphasised the territory of the municipality was large and

5 did not easily lend itself to safeguarding control. And then I think the

6 rest of the meeting was concerned, as it's recorded really in your

7 notebook as well, in connection with the medical centre and Dr. Vidovic,

8 who talked about illegal profiteering and the like. So the suggestion

9 there again coming through the army side is that there should be a mass or

10 rather to move the population of the Muslims. Now, can you have a look,

11 please, at 8 -- P843? 1843, sorry. Thanks.

12 This is apparently an undated document. Could you look at it? Do

13 you recognise the signature?

14 A. I think it is indeed Mr. Vrzina's signature.

15 Q. All right. Now, this is pursuant to a decision of the War

16 Presidency dated the 31st of July, Muslims may move away voluntarily on

17 the following conditions, they sign a contract on the exchange of

18 immovable property and sign a statement giving their immovable property to

19 the state, and it then goes on to talk about that.

20 Do you know where the idea --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- came from, that they had to sign a statement giving their

23 immovable property to the state?

24 A. Basically, I don't know what the underlying idea was but from the

25 very outset we knew that this decision was not legally valid. However, it

Page 20161

1 was allowed to happen, in order to give legitimacy to the municipality,

2 you will see in the concrete decisions in the statements of citizens of

3 Muslim ethnicity that that's the way it was. Specifically, they left

4 their property to the municipality. In this way, the municipality would

5 get the legitimacy to protect this property from plunderers because we

6 actually knew that there was a state of emergency on the situation was not

7 regular, the people were threatened, that they were leaving the area. As

8 for property, I myself told the president that it was the municipality

9 that was responsible, that the municipality as a legal entity was

10 responsible for the property of those citizens and that at any given point

11 in time once the war is over, they or their legal heirs are going to raise

12 that question and that they are going to set claims either for property

13 that was destroyed or damaged. And as they would leave, our clerks would

14 seal the houses and list all their valuables, regrettably even this did

15 not prevent future lootings. Otherwise I think that Mr. Vrzina drafted

16 this on his own because in a certain period of time while I was mobilised

17 in a unit, they put me into this commission as a member, as a lawyer, and

18 until I talked to your investigators, I had no idea that I had been a

19 member of that commission. That does not mean that this did not happen.

20 This is the way it was done.

21 Q. All right. You see because it says at the bottom of this

22 document, the commission for moving out together with the Petrovac Brigade

23 command shall distribute immovable property given to the municipality. Do

24 you know whether that happened? In other words that property that Muslims

25 had to sign over to the state was given to other people?

Page 20162

1 A. This property was given to people for temporary use, temporary

2 use. By way of a separate decision. As for the command of the Petrovac

3 Brigade, this proves the continued pressure that was exerted by military

4 representatives, and indeed, their soldiers who they appointed I think

5 there were five or three of them on the commission, I know that it was an

6 odd number, they basically said this person should be given some property,

7 this person should not be given property, and then on the basis of that,

8 the municipal commission would reach appropriate decisions. Mr. Sepa was

9 in charge of this particular job but I know that I saw these soldiers on

10 that particular business at the municipality all the time and here it also

11 says that the revision of these contracts will be carried out. This is

12 proof that people knew that these contracts regarding exchanges as a rule

13 would not be legally valid. Because it had to do with one half or

14 one-third, less here, enormous [as interpreted]. And I personally

15 cautioned the president against that. They were cautioned, that

16 inadequate property cannot be substituted for by a vast property. There

17 has to be a balance. One has to strike a balance. So people realised

18 this was just done proforma in order to make it possible for people to

19 leave.

20 Q. All right. I want you to very quickly, please, just to look at

21 P1844, 3rd of August minutes, which is continuing with the same topic.

22 Just to identify, please, if you can, the signature at the end of the

23 minutes.

24 A. It's a bit illegible but according to this last letter, the one

25 that's been crossed out, I think that this is the signature of the

Page 20163

1 technical secretary, Milka Jevic.

2 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to bother to go through them. Your

3 Honour, I'm just dealing with identification of authentic documents.

4 Q. Could you have P1845, please? Which isn't on the list but I think

5 it's important that we see the follow-through of all of this. Can you

6 again just the signature, judge, it's apparently signed by Mr. Gacesa. Do

7 you recognise his signature?

8 A. Well, I didn't see his signature often but I believe that this is

9 an authentic signature, if it was copied from the original document. The

10 letterhead and the general appearance seems right. It looks like the

11 documents that they drafted.

12 Q. If you see there is a stamp -- I know it's a bad photocopy, this,

13 but there is a stamp on it. Is that -- what sorts of a stamp is that, at

14 the top of it, I'm sorry, not at the bottom, not the municipality stamp.

15 A. Yes. This is the municipal stamp that confirms that it was

16 received. That is one of the elements that I had in mind when I said that

17 I believe that this is an authentic document. There are other elements

18 that all point in that same direction but let's not waste any time over

19 that. So it all seems to be right.

20 Q. All right. And this document very briefly we can see that

21 Mr. Gacesa is saying because the Muslims are leaving property to the

22 municipality, they should find accommodation for these particular workers,

23 the employees of the SJB. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. And finally, please, could you look at 846? There are

Page 20164

1 a number of documents there. Sorry, 1846. These are certificates

2 apparently that were issued in respect of these people who wanted to move

3 out. Did you see such certificates?

4 A. Until I gave a statement to the investigators, I had not seen any

5 such certificates but they are authentic because I know that forms were

6 actually made for such certificates and that this was something that was

7 being done.

8 Q. Yes, thank you very much, sir.

9 MS. KORNER: We will leave it at that, I think.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, we are going to stop here today. We will

11 continue on Monday.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Have a nice weekend.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Greetings, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you in the first place whether you have

21 thought about withdrawing this motion?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I have not, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't thought or you're not withdrawing it?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I am not withdrawing it. I think it's an

25 appropriate motion.

Page 20165

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We think it is very inappropriate actually. I think

2 that it's a last-ditch attempt again to disrupt the programme that this

3 Trial Chamber emphasised must be adhered to.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the last thing in the world that I

5 want to do is disrupt --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You're definitely trying to disrupt --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: -- this Trial Chamber.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What I made very clear, that we need enough time to

9 be able to not only prepare the rule 90 -- decision on the Rule 98 bis

10 motion but more importantly that we have ample time and sufficient time,

11 considering what happened in other cases, to prepare the final judgement.

12 What you are suggesting is to take us back three weeks, which is not

13 acceptable.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think I tried -- I tried,

15 maybe I failed, I tried to make it clear in the motion that it is my very

16 strong belief that by being granted the additional preparation time, we

17 would be able to finish at the same time we are currently scheduled to

18 finish. I'm not asking to stretch everything out.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: When according to you are we scheduled to finish.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: My recollection, Your Honour, is that we were given

21 14 weeks and I can't remember.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You were given more than 14 weeks, I gave you 16

23 weeks, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: 16, yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, if you are prepared to cut it down to 14 weeks,

Page 20166

1 I am prepared to give you an extra week. And I am prepared to give you an

2 extra week because we would gain one week ourselves.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Maybe I misunderstand. Are you saying that if I

4 give you two weeks, you'll give me one?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Don't expect me to treat you any differently

6 than how I treated Ms. Korner.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I can give you up to tomorrow morning to think about

9 it.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour, what I said and I really feel very

11 strongly about this, what I said was that if we are given adequate time to

12 prepare the Defence case, I believe we would finish the Defence case in

13 the time that has been allotted. Whatever the concluding date that you

14 have, for the Defence case --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not what I have. It's the concluding date that

16 I have arrived at giving you -- allowing to you, irrespective of what may

17 have been decided during the pre-trial stage because I don't really at

18 this point in time, I prefer not to look back at the pre-trial stage and

19 what may have been the opinion of my predecessor at that point in time,

20 certainly living this case for more than a year and a half, has convinced

21 me that while previously you said three months would probably be enough

22 for your defence, now you're saying four months. I quite agree with you

23 that perhaps you need four months and I'm prepared not to cut one single

24 day on those four months. The thing is this: That those four months must

25 finish at a date or on a date which would allow us what I have earmarked

Page 20167

1 as the bare minimum, barest minimum, needed for us to elaborate, discuss,

2 elaborate, draft, agree, disagree, and then come to the final judgement.

3 And believe me, from what I have learned here in the past year and a half,

4 I am risking a lot by earmarking what I have earmarked. I should insist

5 on more.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me tell you what I'm struggling with, Your

7 Honour. I think we are not on the same wavelength right now. I don't

8 know what date 16 weeks down the road gets us to. That's what I don't

9 know.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell you, the idea was for the Prosecution to

11 finish by the 1st of August.


13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then we agreed that you would have from

14 the 2nd of August until the 22nd of August, time to prepare your Defence

15 and file your Rule 98 bis motion.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: That's true, yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Then as you yourself maintain and rightly in your

18 motion, you have got then -- there is from the 23rd of August to the 5th

19 of September for the Prosecution to file its response. Then we agreed

20 that since there will be a witness testifying late August, just one

21 witness, testifying late August, I opened up to you and I said you will

22 have an opportunity to file an additional note, et cetera. We have not

23 established a date on that. We are easy. I mean we are definitely not

24 going to quarrel or quibble on that. We were hoping and we -- I still

25 hope that we would be able to hand down an oral decision on the rule 98

Page 20168

1 bis motion on the 3rd of October. Which basically means that on the 6th

2 of October, you are scheduled to start with your Defence case, which is

3 exactly six weeks after the presentation of, filing of the Rule 98 bis

4 motion. I had earmarked up to the 30th of January for you to finish with

5 your Defence case, and that's the full 16 weeks. Then rebuttal,

6 rejoinder, if you want to give me the days, I can give you the days but I

7 was working on those assumptions and basically it means that closing

8 arguments on your part, final, would be 19th of March. This is the plan

9 that I have in my mind and as I have jotted it down.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the only thing I was standing here not

11 knowing. What I tried to say and I apparently did not say it well, in

12 paragraph 14, was that if we have that time that I'm asking for for

13 preparation of the Defence case, we will finish the Defence case on the

14 date that you just mentioned, that being January 30th or whatever. In

15 other words I'm not asking to extend the back end of the Defence case by

16 three weeks, I'm only asking to have time to prepare it better so that I

17 can produce it more efficiently and get -- I can do it in less time, do it

18 better, everything, but the time I'm given to put it together, the more I

19 look at it the more I realise it's just not sufficient and we are going to

20 have a just -- a comedy of stops and starts.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No Appeals Chamber is going to like what you have

22 just said, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not talking to the Appeals Chamber, I'm talking

24 to the Trial Chamber.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm talking about the Appeals Chamber because if

Page 20169

1 you force our hands we will have to hand down a decision. What I'm trying

2 to avoid is having to say what I wouldn't like to say. This is what I'm

3 hinting to you. I mean, I understand that you may have problems. I

4 understand that these last weeks may have convinced you to take this

5 stand, but as I explained to you, I have responsibilities towards the

6 Chamber and towards the Tribunal.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know. Maybe I wasn't heard. What I said

8 was if I have this additional three preparation weeks, I still expect to

9 finish on I think you said January 30th. I don't ask that that be changed

10 in any way.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. But you -- what you have not understood or

12 forgotten is what I have been repeating throughout to you and to

13 Ms. Korner, that when I say according to what I plan in my mind, we finish

14 on the 16th of March, of 2004, and then 19th of March, 2004 and then we

15 start our labours, I am not happy with that. I told you already I am

16 not -- I know that I am running a risk, a big risk.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] This is the position. I

19 mean --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Giving you an extra week would not create

22 problems for me if I gain something out of it. If I don't gain something

23 out of it, I don't think I should. And the reason is that if -- the

24 earlier we start, the earlier there is a chance that we finish. The later

25 we start, the less chance there is that we will finish before the 30th,

Page 20170

1 30th of January.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, what I'm obviously not saying well is I think

3 that's not the case. I think and I say it in the motion, that if I have

4 an opportunity to be properly prepared, I can move much more rapidly than

5 if I am just --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Bouncing from pillar to post.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But -- I wish I could speak more openly. Don't tie

9 our hands because I would rather prefer that we sort this out now or

10 tomorrow morning, not tomorrow morning, sorry, I'm definitely not coming

11 here again tomorrow morning, neither Judge Janu nor Judge Taya. What I

12 suggest to you is to consider about having an extra week but then giving

13 us something in return. Because I mean, you are bringing up in your

14 motion several matters, like as if you are expecting us to agree that the

15 fact that this case started a year and a half ago doesn't mean anything,

16 sort of -- that's irrelevant for preparing the Defence, that's not

17 important. It's this -- from now until the next two months that is

18 important, and it's your health that is important, which we acknowledge

19 and we've tried to be as helpful as we could. If you tie our hands, we

20 will have to speak in no unclear terms. I have already put down points

21 now which I would like to sleep upon to tell you the truth because I don't

22 want to be rash.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I don't know what to say. I think that -- I

24 think that in view of the way other cases have been dealt with, in view of

25 the complexity of this case, in view of the huge obligation I have to

Page 20171

1 Mr. Brdjanin, if I didn't ask for time to be adequately prepared, I could

2 be severely criticised for not providing adequate assistance to my client.

3 This is the most difficult case that's ever been tried in this Tribunal.

4 Other cases of much lesser note, as I've pointed out in my motion, have

5 been given significantly more time.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm not --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: To prepare the Defence case.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not impressed there and I can quote other cases

9 where they were given much less time even with regard to the Rule 98 bis

10 motion. I can quote instances where the Defence was given just seven days

11 and the Prosecution seven days too. And it was by no means a simple case

12 or more than one case. The logic of it all, Mr. Ackerman, and I'm going

13 to close the discussion here, is this: You said if you give me the three

14 weeks that I am asking, I will be better prepared and I can basically cut

15 down my Defence case by three weeks because I would still finish on the

16 30th of January. Do you mean to tell me that if I give you one week, you

17 will not be able to finish one week earlier?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: May be able to.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So go back to your apartment or to your house, think

20 about it, and come back Monday with some kind of response.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to -- I just want to show, Your Honours --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't want to be difficult with you,

23 Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But --

Page 20172

1 MR. ACKERMAN: This is our average daily disclosure.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you're alone?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I know I'm not alone but you understand it takes

4 hours and hours to get through this. This is a sound recording of some

5 kind, I'm sure, it's probably -- it could be as long as two hours, might

6 be more, I don't know, it may be another copy of one they've given me,

7 before, I don't know. But I have hours of these just to sit and listen

8 to, I'm trying to put together a Defence case at the same time. I'm aware

9 of the Court's problems with regard to the timing of this case. I'm not

10 unsympathetic about that at all.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you aren't.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: But I do want to fulfil my obligations to my client

13 in the best way I can. That's all I'm trying to do. I don't want to

14 disrupt this trial for one minute. I want this trial to finish properly.

15 I don't want to have problems with this case. I want to do it in the best

16 way I can. I want to be the best lawyer I can be for my client and the

17 best advocate I can be for this Chamber.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And you sure are. And I hope --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I'm asking for.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope this is also not meant to sort of proclaim in

21 public, look my client is not receiving a fair trial because I would

22 really hit back there. I'm promising you. What I suggest is that we

23 sleep on it for the time being, and you come back Monday with my

24 suggestion. May I also make something clear? And may I have the

25 indulgence of the interpreters for a couple of more minutes and then we

Page 20173

1 stop. When I say -- when I say start on the 6th of October, what we

2 could do, we could start the week after, on the 13th, and in the week

3 between the 6th and the 13th, you bring over those witnesses that are

4 remaining that we had agreed will come forward before --

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's what we intend to do. I was

6 going to say we are going to start with cross-examination of Mr. Brown and

7 Mr. Treanor. That's what was agreed. Not -- so in fact it's not really

8 the Defence case as such.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I understand that.


12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just mention one more thing for

13 Your Honours to factor into all of this. To let us know when you intend

14 to hold a Pre-Trial Defence conference which is the norm?


16 MS. KORNER: And also to -- when you're going to require the list

17 of witnesses, the witness summaries, and the Pre-Trial Defence brief?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually I have a meeting with my senior legal

19 officer on Monday on precisely on these matters but his deputy is on leave

20 yesterday and today, so -- and he is the one who will tie up on this.

21 Mr. Ackerman, I suggest you think about it and we'll take it up again very

22 shortly, sometime on Monday.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, can we maybe take it up Tuesday? I

24 have some obligations on Monday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's not something that has necessarily

Page 20174

1 to be decided on Monday.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we do a two minute private session.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for two minutes.

4 In fact, I wanted to tell you something in private session too.

5 [Private session]

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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 1.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

22 the 28th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.