Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20271

1 Tuesday, 29 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is the case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav

9 Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

11 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in a language that

12 you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone. Yes, I

14 can follow in a language I understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I thank you. Please sit

16 down.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

19 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner assisted

20 by Denise Gustin.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you.

22 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

24 I'm with David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic this morning.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

Page 20272

1 Preliminaries, and there is one matter that I will deal with, but

2 I'm waiting for some photocopies to be done and I want to deal with it in

3 private session. I think we need to wait a couple of minutes until the

4 photocopies are ready, because I also have to give them to my two

5 colleagues. Nothing special, Ms. Korner, so it's not a big problem. It's

6 something that more or less concerns Mr. Ackerman more than the rest of

7 us.

8 So that's number one. Number two: You were supposed to come back

9 with feedback on your motion, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm here to backfeed, Your Honour.


12 MR. ACKERMAN: Basically what I have to tell you is that I am

13 willing to accept your offer. I propose that we begin on 14 October

14 rather than 13, but other than that, your offer is acceptable. So we

15 would start on the 14th of October with the two witnesses that are to be

16 cross-examined, and then go from there straight into --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: -- beginning to call Defence witnesses.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through this bit by bit. And that means

20 basically instead of finishing the Defence case -- you will finish the

21 Defence case one week earlier than the date I mentioned last time.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I understood that was the offer, Your Honour, and

23 that's what I've accepted.


25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 20273

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So the position, you've got more support on my

2 right, Mr. Ackerman. But that doesn't save you.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, consult your left. Maybe the two of them

4 will ...

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go through this. We are agreed that for

6 most intents and purposes, Prosecution case will be concluded, save for

7 what I will be saying, on the 1st of August. Then it's the understanding

8 that in the week, last week of August, I understand that there was some

9 discussions yesterday between one member of my staff with you,

10 Mr. Cunningham, and with -- someone -- that's what I am informed.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was going to bring that up. We're

12 suggesting that we sit during that week on the Wednesday, Thursday,

13 Friday, which would be I think the 29th, 30th, and 31st.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I am told as follows: I will not mention names

15 because I am not quite sure whether they are protected witnesses or not.

16 I spoke this afternoon with Mr. Cunningham regarding the schedule of

17 Prosecution witnesses for the last week of August. Currently, there are

18 two scheduled to appear. The first is BT19, who is scheduled to appear

19 on Thursday, 28th, and Friday, 29th of August. That's agreed and that

20 stands as it is; correct? (Redacted)

21 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, that's right. And there's one to

22 come back for cross.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And the second witness is the one you've just

24 referred to who is scheduled to return for cross-examination, if ...

25 MS. KORNER: If ... Your Honour, he would be on the Wednesday.

Page 20274

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm told -- Mr. Cunningham asked whether the

2 Chamber was planning on calling this person on Monday, the 25th, which

3 would likely result in a break between that witness's testimony and

4 BT19. He expressed a clear preference to start on Tuesday, 26th, or

5 perhaps Wednesday, 27th. He has spoken to Ms. Korner who was apparently

6 in agreement. This is what I'm told.

7 MS. KORNER: This is what -- Your Honour, unless I was dreaming, I

8 don't recall having any conversation with any legal officer on this

9 subject yesterday.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Mr. Cunningham.

11 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see. I thought Your Honours were saying --

12 certainly I spoke with Mr. Cunningham about this.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you agree that, if possible, we'll

14 try to get that witness on Wednesday.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Wednesday the 27th.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's -- it is also agreed already between the

20 Chamber and Mr. Ackerman, in particular, that following the testimony of

21 these two witnesses, you will have an additional time for the filing of a

22 supplemental Rule 98 bis addendum. Shall we leave it open until when we

23 need to cross the bridge, so that you practically or more or less know how

24 much time you would require, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I suppose so, Your Honour. There's even a

Page 20275

1 significant possibility that I won't require any time at all to file the

2 supplement. It may not be necessary.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So it is understood also that these two

4 days remain firm, August 22nd being the deadline for the Defence filing of

5 the Rule 98 bis motion, and September 5th being the deadline for the

6 Prosecution 98 bis response.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think the only other thing I'd ask is

8 if before we break on Friday, Your Honour were to set dates first of all

9 as to if the case continues, obviously, for when Mr. Ackerman must supply

10 us with the --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The list of witnesses, yes, yes, yes. I'm coming to

12 that. I'm coming to that. Because it's -- I was planning on the

13 assumption that we would give Mr. Ackerman this extra week.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: On the assumption that he would agree with our

16 offer, anyway.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So we plan to hand down our oral decision on the

19 Rule 98 bis as planned, that is, on the 3rd of October, on the 3rd of

20 October. In view of this, we have set the 29th of September as the date,

21 final date by which you, Mr. Ackerman, need to file whatever you require

22 to file under Rule 65 ter (G). All right? Then on the 3rd of October,

23 following our decision on the Rule 98 bis, we will have the pre-Defence

24 conference. So the filings of the list of witnesses, et cetera, needs to

25 be done on the 29th, Mr. Ackerman. On the 3rd of October, we hand down

Page 20276












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Page 20277

1 our decision. We hope. We have agreed yesterday on a very tight

2 timetable during which we hope to be able to reach -- cover all the

3 territory of the Rule 98 bis and hand down an oral decision. That should

4 enable us then to hold a pre-Defence conference, on the same day. That's

5 the idea.

6 The opening of Defence will be then on the 14th, on the Defence

7 case, will be on the 14th of December -- of October. And I haven't got

8 the last ... I will tell the registrar, then, or my legal officer, the

9 date when you're supposed to close your defence. We should now be in a

10 position to issue a comprehensive Scheduling Order covering also the

11 closing and the rest. All right? Okay.

12 Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

13 Thank you, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, on the subject of -- just quickly on the

15 subject of witnesses, because we had the same problem in Stakic. It is

16 absolutely vital that we are provided not only with the name of the

17 witness, but the date of birth and the father's name. Otherwise there are

18 so many people, as Your Honours know, with virtually the same name, in

19 order for us to properly conduct our researches. We do need that

20 information. And this was a problem that became very acute in Stakic. So

21 can I just mention that now so it's clear.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Ms. Korner.

23 And Mr. Ackerman, please take note of that.

24 So we can bring the witness in.

25 No. The other thing I wanted to tell you -- let's go into private

Page 20278

1 session, please.

2 [Private session]

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I be excused.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Mr. Ackerman, and I thank you for

22 your cooperation.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Judge.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

Page 20279

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it short. Please proceed with the solemn

2 declaration and we will try and finish with your testimony today.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge. Please take a chair.

8 And Mr. Cunningham will continue with his cross-examination.

9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours. If we could show the

10 witness Exhibit P22, please.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham: [Continued]

12 Q. This is the exhibit that we left off with yesterday, a document, a

13 telex, delivered to, it appears, the -- at least in this case it was

14 delivered to not your municipality but another municipality; correct?

15 A. As you can see.

16 Q. Yesterday I think you told us that the document had Mr. Brdjanin's

17 signature on it. In fact, it does not have his signature on it. It

18 doesn't bear anyone's signature; correct?

19 A. That's correct. It bears no signature. What I meant was is that

20 there was the name, as if it was signed. Normally you wouldn't be able to

21 have a document like this signed. It's a difference in terminology.

22 Q. And I want to talk about -- there were 14 directives listed in

23 this telex, and I want to go through them quickly. I think you told us

24 yesterday that with respect to number 1, at no time was a military command

25 of the town ever formed in your municipality; correct?

Page 20280

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Although there was a significant amount of pressure from the

3 military to do that; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There was round-the-clock duty in your municipality for about a

6 week and if memory serves me correct in your statement you said that no

7 one really wanted to do that, so you disregarded the around-the-clock

8 directive after a week; correct?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Cunningham, because we have a

10 problem, at least two of us. It seems that in our records there is some

11 confusion between P23 and P22. I have the right P22, but we need the

12 exhibit to be put on the ELMO so that the three Judges can follow.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just so there's no confusion in

14 anybody's mind, it is actually the telex allegedly signed by Brdjanin.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. And I remember in the first weeks of

16 the trial that this -- we had problems with this document, actually.

17 Yes. My apologies to you, Mr. Cunningham, for interrupting.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No problem, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed.


21 Q. With respect to number 2, which deals with establishing the full

22 mobility of the TO, this was never carried out, and I believe in your

23 testimony from last Thursday, you testified it was not within the

24 municipality's authority to carry out full mobilisation; correct?

25 A. Correct. That is not within the authorisation of the

Page 20281

1 municipality, but we had no need to do this.

2 Q. There was a third directive there that says form units for the

3 front and designate their replacements. And in your statement at page 16

4 of the English statement you said that this was not done, and you even

5 went so far as to call this portion of the order a stupid order. Do you

6 remember that?

7 A. I remember that.

8 Q. Paragraph number 4, directive number 4, specifies that all men

9 under the age of 40 are to be reassigned from civil protection to the TO,

10 and the TO is to be resubordinated to the corps as wartime units. Again,

11 this was not something within the authority of your municipality to do;

12 correct?

13 A. There was no authority for that.

14 Q. Number 5 talks about a directive to take over the management and

15 public enterprises, the post office, SDK, bank, judiciary, and by all

16 means the media. It was impossible for your municipality to do this;

17 correct?

18 A. It wasn't physically impossible, but it was unnecessary,

19 superfluous.

20 Q. In your statement, and I apologise for not having the page number,

21 I believe you said the following, and I'm quoting you: "In our town, in

22 our municipality, only two managers were changed, were dismissed and been

23 replaced or appointment and in this period not a single one, and the only

24 one that was dismissed -- and only one was dismissed, and that was a

25 Serb."

Page 20282












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Page 20283

1 Do you recollect what you were referring to there?

2 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I do need the page number for this.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. Well, let me go to the next one and I'll

4 come back.

5 Q. One of the -- directive number 6 had you -- you were ordered to or

6 directed to proclaim a wartime programming schedule on radio stations, and

7 I think on page 16 of your statement you said that that was out of the

8 question.

9 MS. KORNER: You mean the interview or the statement?

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: The interview. That's what I'm talking about.

11 A. It is true what you've just quoted. These instructions are not --

12 they do not coincide with our remit.

13 Q. What do you mean with "our remit"?

14 A. What I meant is that it is possible that it coincided with other

15 areas, other remits, other municipalities. At the time, we only had some

16 citizens of our municipality were mobilised in Lika and Dalmatia front.

17 So there was no need to declare any kind of wartime schedule of the

18 programmes. In contrary to other municipalities that had a large number

19 of citizens mobilised on other fronts, so the situation was completely

20 different.

21 Q. Let me go back to number 5. Number 5 says, "Take over management

22 in the public enterprises, the post office, SDK, bank, judiciary and

23 media." And a moment ago I couldn't put my hand on your tape-recorded

24 statement from June 2003. I can now do so. And this is what you said in

25 response to talking about these directives. I'm reading from page 16,

Page 20284

1 line 5 of my copy: "Number 5: Take over authority, power, and public

2 companies, post office. That was impossible. In our town, in our

3 municipality, only two managers were changed in -- were dismissed and been

4 replaced or appointment, and in this period, not a single one, and only

5 one was dismissed, and that one was a Serb."

6 Do you remember -- first of all, do you remember saying that in

7 your statement?

8 A. That's exactly how I said it, and I can add that the director of

9 the post office was a Muslim, then of the sawmill, he was a Muslim, and

10 there were some other people. I cannot recall all of them, and you know

11 why. And during that period, nobody was fired. No director was replaced.

12 It was only at the end of 1992, in the course of 1993, that one director

13 was replaced, who was unable to organise the production as requested, and

14 he was a Serb. And the head mistress of the secondary school was

15 appointed.

16 Q. Okay. So it sounds like, to me, that within the industry in your

17 municipality, within -- the people that would fall underneath the public

18 enterprises, post office, SDK, bank, judiciary, and media, you did not

19 have the sort of dismissals of Muslims that you did in other enterprises;

20 correct?

21 A. There were no firings in other companies. There was no firings

22 like this. As I stated yesterday, it started in the spring and summer of

23 1992.

24 Q. And let's move on with the further discussion of this telex.

25 Let's talk about number 7. Number 7 is calling a meeting of the

Page 20285

1 directors, agreeing on the means of supplying the populace with everything

2 from electricity to consumer goods. Prior to the date of this telex, your

3 municipality was already doing that; correct?

4 A. Prior to this telex, our municipality, yes, was doing these things

5 concerning the supplies, because there was a shortage of certain things

6 and a surplus of others. So we were trading during this period of time

7 and after the telex. That is, this telex did not affect our business

8 relations.

9 Q. For the remainder of the items listed on this telex, numbers 8

10 through 14, those were not implemented in your municipality; correct?

11 A. It is correct. I remember that there was some building going on

12 even during the war. When I said that many of these instructions were

13 nonsense, I meant that lots of things were unnecessary or simply

14 redundant.

15 Q. And you mentioned lots of construction going on in your

16 municipality. Your president even was involved in some construction

17 during the war period; correct?

18 A. Yes. The president of the Executive Board. They were building --

19 they were constructing a building next to the municipal hall. I know that

20 he was building a business premises.

21 Q. Let's look at number 12. "Paramilitary formations, if they exist,

22 to be disbanded immediately and reassigned to the Territorial Defence.

23 This must be carried out without fail." You see that, don't you? Okay.

24 A. I do. I do, yes.

25 Q. When it talks about paramilitary formations, it's not merely

Page 20286

1 talking about Muslims, is it?

2 A. How I read this, it refers to Serb paramilitary formations,

3 because it is notorious -- it is common knowledge that there were

4 paramilitary units in some municipalities which went, as a rule, to the

5 front in Croatia. We had regular mobilisations for the front, and I must

6 say that people are not particularly keen on responding. And at the time

7 when there was effectively good and firm authority, people who would

8 attempt to form paramilitary formations would have been arrested, because,

9 as you know, such men, such individuals, are quite reluctant to go to the

10 front line.

11 Q. Right. Let me go to another topic now, because I want to talk

12 with you and visit with you about the ARK Crisis Staff and your

13 municipality's relationship with Mr. Brdjanin. You told us in your

14 testimony that when the ARK was proclaimed, it was supposed to adopt all

15 the duties of government. Do you remember telling us that?

16 A. That is how I understood it, basically. The government or the ARK

17 was -- yes, it was expected that it would be formed, and with all the

18 duties that go with it.

19 Q. All the duties and obligations that go with governance, including

20 dealing with the economy, schooling, pensions and health plans, paying

21 salaries to governmental employees; correct?

22 A. Well, yes. These duties and obligations in the first place, and

23 other things that governments are supposed to do, of course.

24 Q. Well, I bring up those four or five things that I just listed for

25 you because in your testimony, your LiveNote testimony from last Friday,

Page 20287

1 at page 34, you told us that the government barely functioned, if at all,

2 in these areas; correct?

3 A. It is correct; at least, in our area, we did not see any serious

4 results coming out of that government. We never received any funds from

5 them. We simply did not feel there was any economy going on. I think

6 that even the money to pay the pensions was not coming regularly. And if

7 I remember correctly, I went to Banja Luka to negotiate specifically about

8 that particular point.

9 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... with respect to those

10 negotiations; is that a fair statement?

11 A. Possibly that they did pay some of the deferred pensions on that

12 occasion, but to tell you the truth, I don't remember exactly. What I do

13 remember, however, is that that administration worked, functioned, poorly.

14 Q. And because of the poor functioning, you were aware of a number of

15 municipalities, and I believe your municipality petitioned to have

16 Mr. Brdjanin removed as president of the ARK Crisis Staff. Were you aware

17 of that?

18 A. Well, to be quite honest, I do not remember it. I saw it in these

19 documents. However, I remember the discontent that existed because of the

20 manner in which ARK functioned. I remember that President Novakovic

21 commented on that repeatedly. I know that he was not happy about it, that

22 when he talked with President Latinovic and Mr. Bilanovic, who was a

23 member of parliament, and they agreed that it was not functioning. And

24 that is why I think that it would be logical for them to request the

25 dismissal.

Page 20288












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Page 20289

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Can I just ask: Are you referring to the document of

3 the 14th of June, P247, or something separate?

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I was going to talk about P1261.

5 MS. KORNER: 1261?

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, ma'am.

7 MS. KORNER: Okay.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: If we could show the witness that exhibit, P1261,

9 please.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we only got the list this morning. It's

11 not in the Petrovac binder, so I wonder if I could ask for it to be put up

12 on the ELMO. I have no idea what it is.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, please.

14 MS. KORNER: Can I repeat again, rather hopelessly, three days

15 before the end of our case, it would be nice to get the list before

16 cross-examination starts.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's an exhortation.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And it's well taken, Your Honour. I apologise to

19 the Court and counsel.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that you usually are -- you are extremely

21 careful, Mr. Cunningham.


23 Q. My notes, sir, reflect that this is an exhibit --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Is --

25 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Can we at least --

Page 20290

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

2 MS. KORNER: -- on to the ELMO so we can see what we're talking

3 about.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. I understand that. Let the witness

5 read it, and we put, once he's read it, we put the English text on the

6 ELMO for a while.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I believe there's another portion of the

8 document.

9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. This is Prijedor.


11 MS. KORNER: Is it Prijedor you want the witness to have?

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, this is one of the exhibits that I can talk

13 about, because this is on my list.

14 Q. If we look at this exhibit, and I know you just read it for the

15 first time, sir, this is an indication from --

16 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Before you go on, Mr. Cunningham, the

17 question was: You put to him that Petrovac had petitioned for the removal

18 of Mr. Brdjanin. The question I asked is: Is that based on the document

19 of the 14th of June, which is Exhibit P249? This is something completely

20 different.

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I know, and I'm withdrawing that question and

22 asking him a question about this one now.

23 MS. KORNER: All right. So you're not suggesting there's any

24 document --

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No. I'm not suggesting that this document says

Page 20291

1 that. I plan on returning back to that with the proper exhibit.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed with 1261 and see what the

3 question is going to be.


5 Q. This question, it appears it's a conclusion by the Prijedor Crisis

6 Staff, signed by their president, or signed by their chairman of the

7 Crisis Staff, which says that they're not accepting and considering ARK

8 Crisis Staff decisions before 22 June to be invalid; correct?

9 A. This is the first time that I see these two documents. I wasn't

10 even aware that municipal mayors, municipal presidents, had requested

11 these dismissals so openly and declared such decisions invalid. This is

12 the first time I see this. So that all I can say is that I know from

13 their conversations that they were not happy with the manner in which it

14 functioned. But this is the first time that I learn that they requested

15 these changes so explicitly.

16 Q. And this document in front of you would be an indication, at least

17 in Prijedor, that they are not -- that there's some discontent with the

18 ARK Crisis Staff?

19 MS. KORNER: That's pure comment. It's not a question.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Ms. Korner. Objection

21 sustained.


23 Q. Well, I guess the tenor of what we've been talking about is: At

24 least within your municipality, your president was not very pleased with

25 the leadership of the ARK Crisis Staff; correct?

Page 20292

1 A. It is correct. There are many questions related to this. So I

2 will add: Traditionally, for reasons that I've explained, we were not

3 linked with Banja Luka, but with Bihac. And after we separated from the

4 Bihac region, we provided the prerequisites for us to function even

5 without any decisions or assistance from Banja Luka. At that period of

6 time, and that is why the discontent in our case was not excessive, and

7 perhaps that is why this was not requested, or at least not as openly as

8 this. And for instance, I do not remember that any of our bodies, of our

9 agencies, dismissed, rejected these decisions and refused to comply with

10 them.

11 Q. In your statements, in your testimony, you have alluded to the

12 fact that you did not believe that Mr. Brdjanin was an effective leader or

13 was -- was an effective leader; is that a fair statement?

14 A. Yes. Judging by what came from the ARK and from what I heard from

15 our representatives, I -- yes, I assumed that he was not an efficient

16 leader. That's right.

17 Q. And you had a personal opinion about his abilities that you

18 expressed in your statements; correct?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Cunningham. Sorry to interrupt you,

20 but your question was whether he believed or not that Mr. Brdjanin was an

21 effective leader, and he's answered that he was not, in his opinion, an

22 efficient leader. The two are not exactly the same. Effective is one

23 thing, efficient is another. You can be completely inefficient but very

24 effective.


Page 20293

1 Q. My question, just to follow up on His Honour's directive, is:

2 There's a difference, as he said, between effective and efficient. Do you

3 believe he was an effective leader? And if you can say so, fine; if you

4 can't, that's okay too.

5 A. Well, efficiency and performance, to my mind, are synonyms; and

6 no, I do not think that he was effective.

7 Q. In your testimony, you've talked about how President Novakovic had

8 numbers for members of the presidency, such as Karadzic and Plavsic, and

9 could pick up the phone and call them on a regular basis. You also

10 referred to the fact that in Exhibit P1870, that President Novakovic had

11 conversation was General Mladic. In your diary, we have seen that there

12 is the number for the Crisis Staff and Mr. Brdjanin. Having said that, I

13 want to ask you some questions. Were you aware of any telephonic contact

14 between President Novakovic and Brdjanin?

15 A. I don't remember whether he talked with him, but the numbers of

16 all the institutions, of all the leaders or more prominent figures, he had

17 all their telephone numbers. At times, he tasked us, the secretaries who

18 were there, and requested from us to communicate with individuals. But he

19 also had direct satellite numbers and so on and so forth.

20 Q. Were you ever tasked to call Mr. Brdjanin on behalf of your

21 president?

22 A. No, not him.

23 Q. In your testimony, you have talked with the Prosecutor's

24 questions, talked about the implementation of certain orders, and I want

25 to read you two passages that you testified to, first on Thursday, then on

Page 20294












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Page 20295

1 Friday.

2 On Thursday, at page 26 of the LiveNote testimony, you testified

3 as follows: "The general principle was to carry out these decisions, and

4 this was done, except in special cases. Where it was impossible to carry

5 them out, when from a technical point of view or legal point of view it

6 was not possible to carry them out, or it was not sensible to, but

7 generally they were respected."

8 And obviously now we're talking about ARK Crisis Staff. You also

9 said the following last Friday, at page 45: "The president urged

10 everybody to respect the decisions, regardless of the persons behind them,

11 whether it has to do with the military or the Krajina, that is, the AR

12 Krajina or the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is, if one

13 thought the decisions were purposeful, they were put through. Only the

14 decisions which made no sense, which served no purpose and did not have

15 anything to do with our area, they were not implemented or could not be

16 implemented, especially those which were quite illegal and could therefore

17 entail grave consequences at a later stage."

18 Do you remember testifying to those passages?

19 A. I can't find those pages, but yes, that is what I said. I

20 remember that that is how it was.

21 Q. Okay. And here's my question: Who decides when a directive or an

22 order serves no purpose in the municipality? Is that a judgement call

23 that you make or the president makes?

24 A. Well, that judgement was, as a rule, made by Mr. Novakovic. Of

25 course, prior to that, he would seek other people's advice I mean,

Page 20296

1 depending on the nature of the decision, he would consult with his

2 associates and other members, representatives of administration. But as a

3 rule, he was the one who decided what would be implemented and what

4 wouldn't. That was according to what I could see regarding those

5 decisions, and that was the only logical way, because the decisions were

6 pretty general, and what was applicable to another municipality or area

7 was not applicable in our case, or vice versa.

8 Q. Were you aware of any general written -- let me rephrase that.

9 Were you aware of any written standards kept in your municipality, or any

10 other municipality, for deciding if an order made no sense, served no

11 purpose, or did not apply to the area?

12 A. There were no written standards. Under the then circumstances,

13 one simply couldn't do any such thing.

14 Q. It sounds like, to me, then, the decision whether to implement or

15 not was largely an ad hoc decision made by the municipality on a

16 case-by-case basis; correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. I want to talk to you about the gazettes, because I know with your

19 background in administrative law, and law, that those are important

20 documents, important periodicals for those involved in law; correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And during the time period that you were at Petrovac, there were

23 problems not only with the form of the gazettes, but your receipt in that

24 municipality of those gazettes; correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 20297

1 Q. In your statement, tape-recorded statement, at page 46, you

2 characterise the gazettes as shoddy and careless, and also stated you did

3 not even know where the press was; correct?

4 A. I think that the word I used was nonsensical, or absurd, and I

5 don't think that a printing house was ever hired. I think they were

6 copied manually. You can see it from the way they look.

7 Q. Okay. And it is these problems with the gazettes, and maybe some

8 others, that prompted you to be tasked with going to the Crisis Staff and

9 raising the questions that you did about the gazettes; correct?

10 A. I think it was just bi-activity, sideline activity when I went to

11 Banja Luka once. I was to see people at the technical service and see

12 what was the matter with the Official Gazette, because we were simply not

13 receiving them.

14 Q. Right. And this is what you said in your tape-recorded statement

15 at page 85: "Some of the decisions were delivered to us, and some of the

16 gazettes, but some weren't. It depended. Sometimes when people would

17 come back from the meetings, they would bring decisions if they had been

18 finished, or gazettes, and sometimes they wouldn't, and it was a

19 little -- it was a little difficult to implement these decisions if we

20 didn't know the full content and we had to [Realtime transcript read in

21 error "no"] implement." Correct?

22 A. Yes, yes, it is. Yes.

23 Q. So a problem in trying to get matters implemented was you didn't

24 have what was supposed to be implemented in the form of a gazette or other

25 directive; correct?

Page 20298

1 A. It is.

2 Q. I want to talk to you with Exhibit P25. If we could show you that

3 exhibit. This document is the instructions for the organisation and

4 activity of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in

5 extraordinary circumstances, Main Board SDS, 19 December, 1991.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think line -- page 23, line 20, just for the

7 record, this was your question, Mr. Cunningham, but I don't think it is

8 reproduced correctly in the transcript. Was a little difficult to

9 implement these decisions if we didn't know the full content and we had no

10 implement. "The full content of what we had to implement." That's how it

11 should read. Then he, of course, answered: Yes, yes, it is. Thank you.


13 Q. You're acquainted with this document having seen it in your

14 interview and in your testimony; correct, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I want to go over some of these instructions to you. One of

17 the instructions under Variant A, number 2, was: Provide conditions for

18 daily meetings of the secretariat and order to continuously monitor and

19 assess the situation on the ground. In your municipality, you did that at

20 first, even though the order said daily meetings, after a while you did

21 not have daily meetings; correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And basically, I think you said at your tape-recorded statement

24 the reason that that happened is no one really wanted to do it, so it only

25 lasted a week or less. That's what you said at page 29 of your statement.

Page 20299

1 Does that sound right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In here, you were supposed to send reports back to the ARK Crisis

4 Staff; correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. That was -- was that your duty to send those reports to the ARK

7 Crisis Staff, or was it Mr. Sikman's?

8 A. Well, formally, that was Mr. Sikman's duty, but frequently I was

9 tasked with compiling this in writing and preparing it.

10 Q. And obviously, you can vouch for the work you did, but are you in

11 a position to vouch in light of Mr. Sikman's other obligations, that he

12 got his reports to the ARK Crisis Staff?

13 A. It is possible that he sent the reports, but these were not his

14 reports; these were reports that in fact the president sent, and he always

15 verified. He had to be shown what had been written.

16 Q. Okay. One of the directives, directive number 4, is to convene

17 and proclaim an assembly of Serbian people in the municipalities. No

18 assembly of the Serbian people of Bosanski Petrovac was ever declared, was

19 it?

20 A. No, because this was not referring to us.

21 Q. Okay. And I think if we were to look at number 5, your answer

22 would be the same. This was not implemented because you read this

23 directive only applying to those municipalities, such as Bihac or Krupa,

24 that were dividing.

25 A. Correct.

Page 20300












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Page 20301

1 Q. Number 6 deals with the increase of security at critical

2 facilities. That wasn't done at all the critical facilities within your

3 municipality, was it?

4 A. As far as I recall, for a few days there was security ensured of a

5 special plant of the waterworks company, and I think that in one company

6 where there was a lot of inflammable material, there was an intensified,

7 internal control, but it was their own security.

8 Q. And the control -- or the increased security at the main

9 waterworks, I believe from your statement, you even stood guard out there

10 one night; correct?

11 A. No. That was during the day. I did. I did go to stand guard,

12 yes.

13 Q. But, much like the directive that you have daily meetings, after a

14 while, the standing guard over the waterworks fell by the wayside, am I

15 correct, and wasn't done?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Number 8 talks about -- I apologise. Paragraph number 10 talks

18 about carrying out preparations, creating the organisational means and

19 other necessary conditions. And then under 3 subsets it provides a

20 listing of certain points. That was not implemented in your municipality,

21 was it?

22 A. Well, apart from the use of annual leave, some people did, some

23 people didn't. Personally, neither before nor after have I used my annual

24 leave but the rest, going abroad, nobody even wanted to go. There were no

25 requests, so there were no prohibitions. I don't know whether it would

Page 20302

1 have been implemented had there been requests. But as far as annual

2 leaves are concerned, that was because of general circumstances, of a lot

3 of pressure on all the services, all the managers. They mostly did not

4 use their annual leave during the wartime.

5 Q. If we look at number 8, it says, "Intensify information and

6 propaganda activities." Do you see that, sir?

7 A. Well, we didn't really have the means for that. That was not

8 done. And in our municipal area, there was no need for that. We only had

9 one radio station that could be only heard in about halfway of the area of

10 a small town. So really, any kind of propaganda to be dissipated by means

11 of a radio, that wouldn't have been effective. What was done was through

12 meetings.

13 Q. And so the decision there on your municipal basis was, based on

14 our circumstances here in Bosanski Petrovac, we are not going to implement

15 number 8 because it just doesn't apply to us; correct?

16 A. No decision was made. What was done is that it was done -- it

17 went without saying, through inertia. Simply, it was going without

18 saying. Nobody said anything. For instance, I was present when they said

19 at a meeting the waterworks shouldn't be secured any more, and that was

20 that.

21 Q. Let me talk finally about number 11, where it talks about carrying

22 out preparations for three or four different subparts. Do you see that,

23 sir?

24 A. Yes, I can see item number 11, yes.

25 Q. In your -- I believe in your testimony, and correct me if I'm

Page 20303

1 wrong, you told us that this was not implemented in your municipality;

2 correct?

3 A. It was not. I believe I have given you the reasons.

4 Q. I want to talk to you now -- I'm done with that exhibit, if you'd

5 like to hand it back to the usher, please. The next exhibit I'm going to

6 visit with you about is Exhibit P153, which deals with mobilisation. For

7 the record, this is a document dated 16 April 1992, from the national

8 defence minister, dealing with mobilisation; correct, sir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And this was an order for mobilisation that came after the fact

11 that mobilisation had been completed in your municipality; correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And in your testimony from last Friday, at page 46, you said that

14 it came from a source that was simply not acceptable. What were you

15 referring to when you said that the source was simply not acceptable?

16 A. Do you mean the source of the decision?

17 Q. Yes, sir.

18 MS. KORNER: Could I have a page number of that?

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's at page 46.

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you. I'm sorry. Page 46 of last Friday?


22 Q. Let me phrase it this way, sir. Did you consider the source of

23 this order to be unacceptable?

24 A. Well, I can't recall exactly why I had said that this was

25 unacceptable. In fact, I think I remember I didn't mean to say that the

Page 20304

1 source was unacceptable but that the legal basis was. I think this was a

2 legal basis that has been imaginary one, and I think pursuant to Rule 71,

3 I had said to the chef de cabinet of Mr. Karadzic to Mr. Dmicic, I said

4 that this was playing with legal basis when they had proclaimed the state

5 of war in part of the territory, because this Rule 71 did not give any

6 basis for such authorisation. And that is why such legal document was

7 legally unacceptable. In fact, they had imagined a legal basis. It was a

8 fictitious legal basis and it was produced as being a legal basis for

9 authorising such decisions. It was only later, in 1995, I believe, that

10 they changed it, or perhaps in 1996, when they changed the constitution

11 and when they included the authorisation.

12 Q. Now, do you --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record -- just for the record,

14 Mr. Cunningham, he's referring to Article 71. In the document -- on the

15 exhibit which I have as P153, there's reference to Article 68 and Article

16 81, but I don't see a reference to Article 71. Perhaps the witness would

17 like to clarify that.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it was a

19 matter of interpretation, or perhaps I didn't state it clearly. But I did

20 mean Article 81. Yes, 81, yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge. Thank you.


23 Q. Although there was purportedly a directive for you to mobilise,

24 your municipality to mobilise, your municipality had done that well before

25 the directive came through; correct?

Page 20305

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you remember that your president responded to the Crisis

3 Staff?

4 A. It is possible that it was, out of courtesy, although had this

5 Crisis Staff been functioning properly, or had Mr. Subotic's ministry been

6 functioning, they would have had to know that all this has been

7 implemented and carried out perfectly.

8 Q. I want to follow up when you said that the response was done as a

9 courtesy. In your tape-recorded interview at page 48 you were asked the

10 following question: "Whatever Novakovic's personal opinion of

11 Mr. Brdjanin may have been, he clearly did feel that he had to respond to

12 this request for detailed information?" This was your answer: "Now that

13 I am actually thinking and interpreting this, I think I will be able to

14 tell the truth. I don't think he felt that he had to. I think he wanted

15 to express his solidarity with the others."

16 When you were asked who the others were, you stated: "The other

17 municipalities."

18 Do you remember that testimony or that statement that you gave to

19 the OTP in this area?

20 A. Yes. I said that, and that's what I meant this time as well,

21 except perhaps I had done it in a shortened way. When I see this

22 document, this has been signed by Mr. Bogdan Subotic.

23 Q. And -- okay. I'm done with that exhibit. I'd like to visit with

24 you about Exhibit P153.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: 153?

Page 20306












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Page 20307

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: 153 is the exhibit that you've just been using.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm sorry. I apologise.

4 MS. KORNER: For the life of me, I'm totally unable to find the

5 quote that Mr. Cunningham attributed to the witness saying about this

6 document. He says it's on page 46 of the LiveNote. It's not on page 46.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 48, he said.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And 48 of his written statement.

9 MS. KORNER: 48 of his written statement. That's different, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course it is different.

12 MS. KORNER: But I don't think he said that about the document.

13 That's why I'm trying to find this.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, that's why --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: 48 of the interview I would say, not the written

16 statement.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think she is referring to a couple of questions

18 back where I referred to page 46. Ms. Korner then said she had difficulty

19 finding it. I then effectively withdrew that question and asked him flat

20 out did he consider this to be unacceptable and if so, why?

21 MS. KORNER: Right. Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry. That is why,

22 because these things have been asserted like something has been asserted

23 earlier. If an assertion is going to be made, I want, please, to be

24 directed to the page on which it actually appears, and any document that

25 is going to be put to support that assertion. I'm sorry. This is

Page 20308

1 getting --

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And that is why, Your Honour, when she made that

3 claim, I withdrew that question and asked a non-leading question to see

4 how he would characterise it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's proceed and we'll react according to

6 what the circumstances arise -- will be from time to time. But if

7 possible, and actually, it is desirable, Mr. Cunningham, that if you are

8 referring the witness to a particular statement that he may according to

9 you have made, then perhaps you can quote chapter and verse, if not read

10 out to him the relevant part of his statement or of his testimony.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I'll be glad to do that, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that will help. That will help the

13 Chamber as well, because since we shift from one courtroom to another,

14 here we have the transcript of yesterday's sitting but, for example, but

15 we don't have the transcript of last Friday's, because last Friday we were

16 sitting in another courtroom. So that creates problems for us, and if you

17 can more or less stick to what I have suggested, we will find your

18 cooperation extremely helpful. So let's proceed.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. You should have Exhibit P157 in front of you, which is an excerpt,

21 and it is signed by the prime minister, 26 April 1992. Do you have that

22 in front of you, sir?

23 A. I'd just like to point to the fact that I did not have the

24 document even a moment ago that you were mentioning. I had a document

25 signed by Mr. Bogdan Subotic, who was the minister of national defence of

Page 20309

1 the Serb Republic of BH. So a moment ago I did not have the document that

2 we were discussing, but I just didn't have the opportunity to say so. But

3 now I'll have a look at this following document. But when we were

4 discussing earlier I did not have the right document in front of me.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I found the passage. I think the

6 confusion arose it had nothing to do with the exhibit that was shown to --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness.

8 MS. KORNER: -- the witness. He said in general terms, general

9 mobilisation, but never referred to P153 so it's wrong to suggest that's

10 what he was talking about.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Ms. Korner.


13 Q. Sir, let's make sure that we have the same document. I don't want

14 any confusion. I want to make sure that you have the opportunity to fully

15 and fairly read that document before I ask you any questions about it. Is

16 this a document dated 26 April 1992, Prime Minister Branko Djeric?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And your duties in the municipality, did you ever see this

19 document?

20 A. I believe so.

21 Q. Have you ever -- do you recall what -- and I don't want you to go

22 through this one by one and discuss them, but generally speaking, look at

23 the documents and determine what, if any, of these 14 points were carried

24 out in your municipality.

25 A. Yes.

Page 20310

1 Q. Have you had a chance to look at all those? Can you tell us

2 which, if any, of those were put into effect in your municipality?

3 A. All of these items, for the most part, some of them fully, were

4 implemented in our municipality.

5 Q. Let's talk now about Exhibit 186, please. And I'm done with that

6 exhibit. If we could see a new one.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps we could -- usher, we could put the English

8 version on the ELMO, please. Thank you.


10 Q. This is from the ARK Crisis Staff, directed to the presidents of

11 the -- to the president of the Municipal Assembly, 11 May 1992. And in

12 effect, what this is, is a statement of account directing that each

13 municipality pay a sum of money on a per capita basis; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at the time of this order, the inflation was very, very high.

16 It was, as you said in your statement, at page 39, inflation was

17 unbelievable. Does that sound correct to you?

18 A. I remember, yes.

19 Q. And the economy was also affected by the fact that the

20 mobilisation that we've talked about caused the production in factories to

21 be suspended because workers were in the military; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, your -- you, in your position, you were not responsible for

24 the payment of the money listed here. That would be another agency or

25 entity within the municipal government; correct?

Page 20311

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I believe your testimony here was that you assumed that this had

3 been paid; correct?

4 A. Yes, I believe they were.

5 Q. Now, at page 39 of your statement, you said the following, and I

6 want to see if you can resolve what I see as the contradiction. You were

7 asked about this very same document, and you said as follows, starting at

8 line 7: "No, at least I don't remember, but this Autonomous Region had to

9 be financed somehow, so I -- I believe it had to be financed somehow. I

10 remember the payments were made, but the inflation was unbelievable at the

11 time. There -- there was chaos, so that may have been the reason why

12 payments were not made."

13 In that paragraph that I just read to you from page 39 of your

14 statement, at one point you say "I believe that they were made," and then

15 you say: "That may have been the reason why payments were not made." Do

16 you have any documents to show -- are you aware of any documents showing

17 that these payments were actually made?

18 A. In both cases, I stated this on the basis of my recollection of

19 general circumstances at the time. I know that the municipality, in

20 relation to all the partners, they always paid everything on a regular

21 basis, and that's why I said I believe that they were. I have no exact

22 knowledge, because that is the administrative -- or rather, the general

23 administration, the financial department.

24 Q. As a lawyer and as a judge, don't you think the best evidence of

25 the implementation of this would be documents from that agency showing the

Page 20312












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20313

1 payment rather than your mere assumption that it was paid?

2 A. Of course that is so.

3 Q. Let me talk to you now about the disarmament of paramilitary

4 groups within your municipality.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I'm done with that exhibit, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: This is a good point to break, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, because I was going to ask you whether you

9 envisage to finish this part in two minutes. So we'll have a 25-minute

10 break starting from now. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Before we took our break, sir, we were about to launch into a

16 discussion about the paramilitaries that were in Bosanski Petrovac, and I

17 want to focus in on that time period, say, from mid-July 1992 through the

18 end of the year. Mid-July on, there was a problem with what I called

19 yesterday renegade soldiers in your municipality committing crimes against

20 person and property; correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And this was a subject of great concern to your municipality doing

23 something to stop the damage; correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And I showed you earlier a document, P-22, which was from the

Page 20314

1 president -- excuse me. It was from the order of the SDS in Sarajevo,

2 talking about the disarming of paramilitaries, and you remember that

3 notation; correct?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Was your municipality ever able to take effective steps to disarm

6 Serbian paramilitaries that were in your municipality?

7 A. I think you misunderstood me. These were not paramilitary units

8 from Serbia. Some of them perhaps passing through.

9 Q. Let's just talk about the ones that you would characterise as

10 Serbian paramilitaries passing through. Were you able, as a municipality,

11 ever to implement a system that effectively disarmed these, what I'll

12 call, Serbian paramilitaries?

13 A. We didn't, but once again -- well, yes. No, we didn't.

14 Q. I want to talk to you about the dismissal of non-Serbs from

15 positions within the municipality. Now, obviously this was a subject of

16 debate within your municipality because there were many on the -- many in

17 the Crisis Staff, many in government, who believed that these individuals,

18 these Muslims, were responsible workers who did their jobs effectively and

19 efficiently; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And much like in other areas, the primary pressure on you, you

22 being the Crisis Staff, you being municipal government, to dismiss the

23 people came from the military; correct?

24 A. No, it wasn't to dismiss people who came from the military, but

25 the pressure was brought to bear by the army to dismiss those officials

Page 20315

1 and clerks who were Muslims.

2 Q. There was a problem in translation and it was due to the poor

3 questioned that I asked, and I think we can agree, and I'll make this

4 point and move on. It was the military who was pressuring the municipal

5 government to sack, to get rid of the Muslims in government; correct?

6 A. Well, its members, members of the army.

7 Q. And effectively, the army had a spokesperson on the Bosanski

8 Petrovac Crisis Staff, and that was - and I apologise for my

9 translation - Mr. Vrzina; correct?

10 A. He wasn't its spokesman. That's not what he was. He was the

11 representative. I think that in the army he was the chief of staff of the

12 brigade, that is, Mr. Vrzina.

13 Q. And in Crisis Staff meetings, he would, although not the

14 designated spokesman, as the representative, he would always put forth the

15 position of the military on various issues facing the municipality;

16 correct?

17 A. That's right. He always presented the views, even though he was

18 not a spokesman. He was the chief of staff, and it was in that capacity

19 that he would take the floor.

20 Q. And in that capacity, when he talked about Muslims in government,

21 Muslims in the economy, he could be counted on to take the position that

22 they should be sacked, that they should not be allowed to continue

23 working; correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. And this pressure created a dilemma within the municipality

Page 20316

1 because there could really be no legal way to sack or dismiss these

2 employees; correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And as one of the president's legal advisors, you advised him that

5 to dismiss these workers would expose the municipality to liability in the

6 future; correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And so ultimately, the decision was made to not dismiss them, but

9 basically give them leave without pay that would freeze their jobs so they

10 could get their jobs back, that their seniority would remain and their

11 years of service would remain; correct?

12 A. Basically, it was envisaged that everybody would return back to

13 their jobs when the situation calmed down, regardless of their years of

14 service, because they were not fired. There were no legal grounds to do

15 that. So that in principle, even their salaries should be paid

16 retroactively for the whole period.

17 Q. Okay. The Crisis Staff didn't force the companies in the area to

18 sack Muslim workers, did they?

19 A. The decision was -- the companies were served with a decision, but

20 we just informed the companies about this.

21 Q. Did you inform the companies that -- of this option, that is,

22 leave without pay and suggesting to them that they use their own

23 discretion?

24 A. In principle, you didn't have such discretionary right. We sent

25 them the original decisions, the source decision of the ARK Krajina, and

Page 20317

1 they wanted us to take a decision and send it to them. And we refused to

2 do that because we wouldn't -- we didn't want to assume the

3 responsibility. We want the managers to assume that responsibility. We

4 decided that we would be held accountable for people -- for our employees

5 if -- I mean, if that matter arose, but we didn't want to assume that

6 responsibility for everybody else. And I remember how my boss on one

7 occasion, when asked by a large company about it, instructed me how to put

8 together the official answer to their query, and I did that.

9 Q. While we're talking about the dismissal of non-Serbs, let me just

10 ask you this question, because it's related: Is it true that Serb workers

11 were sacked if they failed to sign -- excuse me, that Serb workers were

12 sacked if they failed to sign a loyalty oath in Bosanski Petrovac?

13 A. No, one didn't have to sign any loyalty. As a matter of fact, I

14 think that two female clerks, two female employees who were Serbs were

15 dismissed. I remember one. I remember even which job she had. But they

16 were dismissed if their husbands, that is, if their family members did not

17 respond to the mobilisation, and that was the test of loyalty. It wasn't

18 that you had to sign something, but if somebody failed to respond to the

19 call-up or if a member of one's family failed to respond to the call-up to

20 join the military service, that was the criterion.

21 Q. Let me change topics on you because I want to talk about

22 resettlement of the Muslim population and what you have characterised as a

23 temporary property exchange involving the Muslims. Effectively, the

24 large-scale resettlement of the Muslim population in Bosanski Petrovac

25 occurred after mid-July 1992; is that true?

Page 20318












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Page 20319

1 A. It is.

2 Q. And the steps taken by the municipality to transfer property

3 temporarily for protection, that was taken -- those steps were taken after

4 mid-July 1992 as well; correct?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. When we talk about the resettlement of the Muslim population

7 within Bosanski Petrovac, was that done with the goal of protecting them

8 or with the goal of eliminating them from your municipality?

9 A. Well, it was only for protection. I believe it has become clear

10 by now.

11 Q. Let's talk about the transfer of properties. You talked about --

12 by the way, you were on the moving-out commission; correct?

13 A. Yes. The first -- it was during my interview with the

14 investigators, and that I learnt about it for the first time, because the

15 commission did not formally sit at the time when I was designated, when I

16 was appointed to this commission, I was on the front.

17 Q. How could it be that you could be named to a municipal commission

18 and not know about it?

19 A. Well, it's possible. I was a lawyer who covered a general area,

20 so I did all sorts of things. And when I was absent, I suppose one of the

21 municipal officials, the president, I guess, put up my name for that

22 commission because there is no doubt that there had to be a lawyer in that

23 commission. And there was a large number of legal problems that cropped

24 up in all these matters.

25 Q. I'm certainly not doubting your qualifications to sit on such a

Page 20320

1 commission, but don't you find it odd that 12 years after the fact is when

2 you are first notified that you are on this commission and it comes during

3 an interview with a Prosecutor? Did you find that odd?

4 A. Well, in principle, no, not really odd, because many things were

5 done along the way and purely formally, but functionally I was involved in

6 these matters. The president would assign specific tasks to me. And I

7 was present at all the meetings where these problems were discussed. And

8 I suppose, I assume that since I was there anyway, that there was no need

9 for them to tell me about the decision.

10 Q. When the municipality devised this programme to transfer the

11 property, the goal was, as I said earlier, and as you have said, for a

12 temporary transfer of the property to the municipality so the municipality

13 in turn could take the steps to preserve and protect the property;

14 correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. The municipality even went and took the steps of sealing up homes,

17 property belonging to Muslims, to further the goal of protecting and

18 preserving that property; true?

19 A. True.

20 Q. Now, it is in September of 1992 where there is an unfortunate

21 escalation of violence against the Muslim population in your community;

22 correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, and I apologise, because I don't have the specific Crisis

25 Staff -- municipal Crisis Staff document in front of me, but do you recall

Page 20321

1 whether your Crisis Staff adopted the position that it would be best that

2 the Muslim population remain in Petrovac? Originally, that was the

3 position adopted; correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Now, despite the position, the public position adopted by the

6 Bosanski Petrovac Crisis Staff, there was an incident where members of the

7 Crisis Staff itself were involved in the secret transfer of prominent

8 Bosnian -- Bosniak representatives; correct?

9 A. Yes, but it happened long before that.

10 Q. It happened at a time when the Crisis Staff had taken the position

11 that the Muslim population should remain in Petrovac; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So on the one hand, you have the public position of the Muslims

14 should remain in Petrovac, and then you have two members of the Crisis

15 Staff, Mr. Milanovic and Mr. Ivanovic, helping Muslims escape from the

16 municipality; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Getting back to September, what had precipitated the spike, the

19 escalation in the violence against the Muslims in September was the death

20 of some Serbian soldiers from Petrovac at the front; correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. People -- the Serbian population was very, very upset about the

23 loss of life of soldiers from their own municipality; true?

24 A. True.

25 Q. And as a result of that, the violence that you've recounted that

Page 20322

1 we've heard from other witnesses occurred. Now, let me ask you this, and

2 I know the answer to this and it's stating the obvious. Your

3 municipality, your organs of authority were not successful in reining in,

4 in stopping this violence; correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. You talked yesterday, I believe it was yesterday, about the

7 incident involving Mr. Balic. And just for the record, he is a Muslim;

8 correct?

9 A. He is, yes. Mr. Balic is a Muslim.

10 Q. And at this time, in 1992, there was a great deal of public

11 discussion about ensuring that the Muslim population was disarmed;

12 correct?

13 A. Why, yes, that too.

14 Q. And again, secretly, surreptitiously, municipal government or

15 someone in municipal government provided Mr. Balic with a Kalashnikov in

16 order to protect himself; correct?

17 A. It was done by the police, and I learnt about that only after he

18 died, from a friend of mine who was the public prosecutor, and it was an

19 informal conversation when I found it -- this about. I don't think that

20 other members of the municipal administration were aware of it either; at

21 least, not all of them.

22 Q. You would agree with me that that would seem to be directly

23 contrary to purported orders directing people to disarm the Muslim

24 population; correct?

25 A. Well, it depends on the angle that you look at it from. On the

Page 20323

1 surface of it, it is true.

2 Q. I would like to talk with you about Exhibit P1878.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And if we could show that to the witness,

4 please.

5 Q. I believe this is a document that you reviewed yesterday, and one

6 that we have called -- I think it's from the Bosanski Petrovac -- we call

7 it the ex-pat's club. But this is a letter that you saw outlining the

8 crimes against the persons and property in Bosanski Petrovac, and you said

9 yesterday that certain details were not quite accurately presented, but

10 not deliberately, but simply because they didn't know the facts. Certain

11 details are not quite accurate. When you said that yesterday at page 14,

12 line 21, generally speaking, what were you talking about that the facts

13 were in the quite -- certain details were not quite accurate?

14 A. As regards the facts, just bare facts, they are accurate. But

15 when I said that not all was quite true, I meant the killing of the Balic

16 family, which I think is not mentioned here. And I meant that the

17 abduction of that little girl is not mentioned here, because basically,

18 they were Muslims who they thought were disloyal as Muslims. And

19 Mr. Balic was given a weapon because he had publicly stated that he would

20 be a loyal citizen of any government because he simply couldn't care less

21 about that type of government and that was why the police thought that

22 perhaps he might be attacked by Muslims themselves. So that is what I

23 meant when I said that it wasn't quite accurate. But the facts, such as

24 they are, yes, they are accurate. These are the incidents.

25 Q. And we're done with that exhibit. If we could show Exhibit P1849,

Page 20324












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Page 20325

1 1849. And just to help orient you, sir, Exhibit P1849 is a document that

2 gives a one-sided version of the events when you confronted the citizens

3 at Karanovac in September. And in that document, Mr. Gacesa writes the

4 following: "We also wish to remark that Jovo Radojko, although in our

5 assessment he is a very honest and worthy man, often lacks tact towards

6 citizens and police employees, due to which he has had problems before

7 with the police, having to intervene in order to get him out of trouble."

8 And I understand that this is one side of the story, but do you

9 have any idea what the author of this letter is referring to when he says

10 that you have had "problems before with the police, having to intervene in

11 order to get him out of trouble"?

12 A. I clash with the police on a number of occasions, but the gist of

13 the conflict was when I was appointed chair of the commission for the

14 spoils of war. Because the looted property was seized by force in our

15 municipality, and pursuant to the then decree on the spoils of war, on the

16 booty, which was carried by the Official Gazette in 1992, of the then Serb

17 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this property could be used only under

18 very specific rules, as there was no room to store it, keep it, things

19 that were bulky, that is, vehicles and other bulky property, was kept

20 within the police station compound, and the police themselves stole that

21 property, and I was responsible for it. So on one occasion the chief

22 of -- the police commander's brother drove 12 tractors away, nobody knows

23 where, and I was held accountable for that. So at a meeting of the Crisis

24 Staff, or rather, on several occasions, I even submitted my resignation in

25 writing, and they always refused to accept it. But then I always said

Page 20326

1 that nobody else could have stolen this but the police, because it was

2 their yard, it was right under their windows. And then they proclaimed me

3 their enemy.

4 And there were other incidents like that which had to do with what

5 they did or omitted to do, because they were not worried about what I said

6 at meetings, but basically because the same positions would then be upheld

7 by the municipal officials.

8 And another occasion, another such instance, it was -- I had been

9 barely appointed to the job and it was sometime in 1991, when the

10 plebiscite of the Serb people was held. The president, Novakovic, then,

11 in order to transport all these commissions and electoral committees and

12 all that, he had provided a tanker of fuel, and it was then distributed on

13 the basis of very specific lists. It was distributed to neighbourhood

14 communities, to different parts of the town, and on that occasion he sent

15 me to a petrol station, that was in the afternoon, after the working

16 hours, to merely check whether the lists were being complied with. So I

17 entered the petrol pump, that is, the room there, but there were lots of

18 people who were very dissatisfied and were requesting that they be given

19 petrol privately. Since we were in the Serb municipality and the refinery

20 in Brod was controlled by the Croats and they were refusing to deliver the

21 fuel and Ina in Zagreb also had failed to supply fuel for months at a

22 time, so that it was in very short supply at the time, so that the

23 president requested rigorous control. And I entered the premises of the

24 petrol pump, at the petrol station, and four Muslims there --

25 Q. And I apologise for the interruption. Just yes or no: The police

Page 20327

1 had a problem with the way that you were -- I take it that the police had

2 a problem with the way that you distributed the petrol, and that was also

3 a cause of conflict between you and the police; correct?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. I apologise --

6 A. No. It's that several citizens -- it's that several citizens on

7 that occasion wanted to force me to sign authorisation for them, and there

8 was pushing and shoving in that throng. And then the policeman simply

9 pulled me out of this crowd and sent me on my way.

10 Q. It sounds like you had conflicts with the police because you were

11 trying to do your job and follow the law and apply the law, and they

12 didn't like that; correct?

13 A. Precisely. I was responsible for these things.

14 Q. And just let me take you, very briefly, back to the -- your

15 appointment to the chair of the commission for the spoils of war. You did

16 your best, I take it, to preserve that property so that at the appropriate

17 time it could be returned to the rightful owner; correct?

18 A. At that moment - I have to be frank, because I have to speak the

19 truth - there was no possibility that was debated as to the property being

20 returned to the owners, but the property was mostly not from the territory

21 of our municipality. But that property had to be registered, listed,

22 according to their technical and technological characteristics, and then

23 only after the war, possibly the owners could be looking for compensation.

24 Because obviously, what is used during the war, it is possible that it

25 cannot be returned as such, full and unscathed.

Page 20328

1 Q. Okay. What I'd like to do is take you back to September of 1992,

2 to the events around the third week of September of 1992. I'm going to

3 visit with you briefly about that. Then I want to go over, briefly, some

4 Petrovac Crisis Staff meetings. If you could show the witness, please,

5 Exhibit P1850, 1850, please.

6 This is the press release by your president, asking people to

7 refrain from the unnecessary shooting, uncontrolled waste of ammunition

8 and destruction of goods; correct?

9 A. Yes, that's right. That is the announcement.

10 Q. And this is the municipal response to the escalating violence

11 that's going on in Petrovac the third week of September of 1992; correct?

12 A. Yes. It was an intense escalation of violence that could no

13 longer be controlled.

14 Q. Why didn't your president do something more meaningful than issue

15 a seven, eight-line directive to the local radio station? Why didn't he

16 do anything more?

17 A. Well, in my statement, I have already said that a lot more has

18 been done than that. But there were no results. For instance, there was

19 a special or a separate unit that was established, the Territorial Defence

20 unit, comprising over a hundred people. These were more prominent men,

21 people about whom we knew very well, for sure, that they wouldn't be

22 looting, that they wouldn't be attacking anybody. In order to protect the

23 Muslim population further, their members patrolled, and they were armed.

24 They patrolled in the areas where the Muslims lived. After that, also the

25 reserve police force was fully mobilised, and they tried everything. But

Page 20329

1 the commander of the Territorial Defence, he probably came that morning,

2 because the -- all those unfortunate incidents were going on for three

3 days. He came and he told the president: Replace me, because I cannot do

4 anything. And he told about an event that happened the night before and

5 said that they were helpless, that they had to either start a war among

6 the Serbs or that they would have to be replaced, that he didn't know what

7 to do. He said that his patrol that night had been attacked from an

8 ambush and that they were told, basically, that the people who had

9 ambushed them told them that they knew who they were and that they would

10 kill their families if they tried to do anything. Those people who had

11 been looting were shouting these things to the patrol from the dark, while

12 they were targeting them. And that is when and why the president issued

13 this public announcement. I believe that was his motive.

14 Q. I want to take you to the meeting of the Crisis Staff that

15 happened very, very shortly before the convoy left, the convoy that you

16 accompanied, I believe, on September 24th, and I think there are notes

17 that are reflected in your diary on this, or the papers that you brought

18 in. Do you know which documents I'm talking about, sir?

19 A. I believe so. This is to do with the last convoy. Well, I

20 escorted several convoys.

21 Q. And I wanted to talk to you, and if you needed your notes to

22 refresh your recollection, I believe it was at one of these meetings

23 Mr. Vrzina wanted you, the municipality rather than you, to take away

24 money and jewellery from the Muslims to help the war effort, and do you

25 remember him making -- taking that position?

Page 20330












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Page 20331

1 A. Yes, and that's what he said. Whether that was officially entered

2 into the minutes, I don't think so, because most of the others rejected

3 such a thing. He spoke in the name of the soldiers, but the soldiers on

4 the front did not know what the main, essential problems were, and they

5 didn't bother with that. They were mostly led by their emotions.

6 Q. And obviously, his view, Mr. Vrzina's view, was not adopted,

7 basically because he was not there at this emergency meeting; correct?

8 A. Correct. This was not at all discussed at this meeting, and it

9 wasn't really appropriate. It was the salvation that had to be organised

10 immediately, and I don't think that he was even invited to this meeting.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Not salvation;

12 rescue.


14 Q. And his, Mr. Vrzina's absence, gave the Crisis Staff, if you will,

15 a way out, because you did not have to deal with that request; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Based on your prior experience in dealing with Mr. Vrzina and

18 seeing the other members of the Crisis Staff, if his proposition to take

19 away the money and the jewellery from the Muslim population that was

20 leaving to help fund the war effort, if that position had been made in

21 front of the Crisis Staff, do you believe it would have passed?

22 A. Well, that would not have passed, and it wasn't passed, because

23 before this large convoy, smaller convoys left, and he also brought this

24 out as the protest of the army. He didn't say that it would just be used

25 for defence, but that this would also enable them to buy weapons for their

Page 20332

1 soldiers. So there were two arguments that he brought out.

2 Q. I want to now follow up on a question that was asked you by the

3 President of this Chamber, and I believe it was on page 47, 48, and I

4 think this happened on Thursday. You were asked: "What had -- what would

5 have been the consequence if you had not implemented the decision had they

6 kept all those employees in employment?" And your answer was, at page 47,

7 48: "Well, there is no doubt that we would have been removed from the

8 places which we held." And then you discussed the mechanisms. You talk

9 about the population bringing pressure to bear. And then you never really

10 got to the second mechanism, or the second device that would have forced

11 you out. Is it true that in addition to the population, it would have

12 been the military that would have forced you out?

13 A. That's also true. In fact, the army was a larger-scale problem,

14 because the army was made up of citizens, but armed citizens. It wasn't a

15 well-ordered army. It was more like a militia, like a police. It's a

16 special type of All People's Defence, National Defence, and it was quite

17 difficult to discipline these people. But there was an additional

18 problem. These people, had they stayed in their workplaces, their work

19 was already impossible. As clerks, they would have had to deal with the

20 public, and the public was already armed soldiers, armed citizens, and

21 their families.

22 Q. I want to talk to you briefly, as a follow-up to something that

23 you testified to about with respect to the police, and your testimony in

24 this regard can be found on 24 July 2003 at page 51. You testified that

25 because of the change from Bihac to the Krajina municipality, functions

Page 20333

1 were being transferred from one regional association to another, and as a

2 result of that, your police actually remained without any kind of real

3 control from a regional centre, and it was effectively without a

4 functional administration.

5 Then you go on to say that the police carried out some of the

6 instructions, but not all, except for some key and dubious decisions.

7 What do you mean when you said by "key and dubious decisions"?

8 A. I can't recall that. I don't have the document. But the police,

9 if I meant that, I'm not sure about what I meant by "key." Perhaps it's

10 the translation. But if I -- regarding dubious decisions, perhaps I meant

11 unlawful decisions. Obviously, the police did not carry out those

12 decisions that were inappropriate to be carried out. That is generally

13 speaking, but I don't know whose decisions exactly. That would depend who

14 these decisions came from. Was that from the ARK or from the municipality

15 or from the ministry?

16 Q. Finally, in this area I want to take you back to a passage that

17 you have in your tape-recorded statement at page 75. There you were asked

18 if your president ever informed you about a meeting where a joint proposal

19 was put forward to replace Mr. Brdjanin with Mr. Kupresanin as the Crisis

20 Staff president. I'm going to give you your response, and I want to see

21 if you still confirm that. Here's what you told the Office of the

22 Prosecutor in that interview, and I'm quoting: "He did not tell me about

23 these things, but I know that there was general discontent with Brdjanin's

24 work. The decisions that were made under his authority were illegally,

25 technically unimplementable. They were simply -- they simply created more

Page 20334

1 problems. The ARK, as a body, never functioned administratively. I don't

2 remember a single one need of ours, of the Petrovac municipality, met --

3 met at this regional level and I don't remember any decisions being made

4 for our benefit. It was just a political body."

5 Do you still stand by that position?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And then a little bit further on in that passage, you say, in

8 connection with respect to responding to ARK documents: "We tried to

9 compensate for it in various ways, and we managed to --"

10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I was going to read that out in

11 re-examination, but I'd like the question read please as well.


13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll do that.

14 MS. KORNER: And the full answer.


16 Q. And the following -- the question by Ms. Korner in the meeting

17 was: "Right. And one of those problems was this it -- was that you had

18 to respond to the orders and directions. They were given when you thought

19 that these were wrong." Your answer was: "Exactly. We tried to

20 compensate for it in various ways and managed to compensate quite a lot.

21 Unfortunately, not fully, because such decisions were published and people

22 would hear about them and talk about them."

23 That's still your position today, isn't it, sir?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. I'm leaving that topic. I want to close by just asking you some

Page 20335

1 questions about four or five meetings of the Petrovac Crisis Staff.

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And with the usher's assistance, I'd like to show

3 you P1830, Exhibit P1830.

4 Q. If you look at these -- the minutes of the 17th session of the

5 Bosanski Petrovac Crisis Staff held on 22 May on the agenda there are

6 three agenda matters that I want to talk to you about, numbers 3, 4, and

7 5. Number 3 deals with the establishment of a grammar school.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. My question is: Did you ever receive funding from -- for this

10 grammar school?

11 A. I don't remember exactly. I don't know. But I know that we, as

12 the municipality, provided the initial financial means.

13 Q. With respect to number 4, the decision to establish a medical

14 centre in Petrovac, during I take it because of the circumstances in

15 1991/1992, and during the war, that that did not come to fruition;

16 correct?

17 A. It's not correct. Later on it functioned as a war hospital.

18 Q. And did you -- do you have any idea the source of the funding for

19 operating that as a war hospital?

20 A. Mostly from our companies.

21 Q. Finally, I want to talk about proposal number 6, to rename the

22 streets and the town. And you told us that there was a Crisis Staff

23 decision to change the name of the town simply to Petrovac, and that was

24 adopted; correct?

25 A. Yes. And that was adopted. But that was not a final decision.

Page 20336












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Page 20337

1 What it meant, it was an initiative towards the legislative authority.

2 That would be the only one authorised to change the name of the town and

3 streets.

4 Q. And that would be the republican assembly; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Likewise, with respect to the effort to change the names of the

7 streets, maybe one or two street names were changed and the rest kind of

8 fell to the side, decisions were not reached on changing other names?

9 A. It is true. I know that two streets had their names changed, but

10 I don't know whether any more street names were changed, because it was a

11 very heated discussion. Many assemblymen wanted their own names they had,

12 and many streets ended up not being changed. I know about only two

13 streets that were changed. One is where the seat of the municipality is.

14 I know that for sure, and how it was changed. And another street leading

15 up to the house of Mr. Novakovic. I don't recall what the old and the new

16 street was, but I do remember about the municipality street, the Marsala

17 Tita Street was renamed St. Sava Street.

18 Q. I'm done with that document and I'd like to move to Exhibit 1833,

19 that's 1833. And for the record, this appears to be the minutes -- or

20 these appear to be the minutes from the 35th session of the Bosanski

21 Petrovac Crisis Staff which was held on 16 June, 1992. If we look under

22 the agenda number 1, we see that there is a notation in the minutes that

23 the military post demanded that measures be taken against the Muslim

24 population, and then there's a discussion about what to do with the Muslim

25 extremists in the community; correct?

Page 20338

1 A. I don't have the minutes. I only have the list of these persons,

2 about whom the police decided on isolation, and later on for them to be

3 detained at Kozila. But yes, there was a debate. There was such a debate

4 that had taken place.

5 Q. And I apologise for giving you the erroneous exhibit. I didn't do

6 that in an attempt to confuse you. It was just an honest mistake on my

7 part. Do you remember that there was a decision made to isolate the

8 Muslims in a well-guarded facility on the outskirts of town? Do you

9 remember that?

10 A. I remember that decision was taken for them to be isolated in a

11 large private house which even had a kind of production plant, and there

12 was enough room for many people to be there. But I don't know whether

13 they were there and for how long. I know they were detained in Kozila,

14 because I took delegation of the Red Cross to see them.

15 Q. Were you aware of any communication between your Crisis Staff

16 and/or your president and the ARK Crisis Staff, seeking ARK Crisis Staff

17 approval for any step that you took in Bosanski Petrovac?

18 A. I don't know that the president asked permission for this.

19 Q. In your response, you brought up the Kozila camp. As a member of

20 the Crisis Staff, were you aware of the mistreatment of prisoners,

21 detainees, at that camp at the time?

22 A. At that time, I didn't understand this to be a camp. This was

23 considered to be detention, that is, prison. There were no premises that

24 could be designated as prison. I also said that it was arbitrarily

25 decided regarding the selection of these persons. Some of the persons

Page 20339

1 were those with whom hidden weapons had been found, and there was a

2 general conviction in that town that people were detained and taken away

3 as a question of their own security, because the tension was so high that

4 they were not safe to be in town. I am not aware -- I was not aware about

5 anything to do with mistreatment, even later, when I was asking questions,

6 because the Red Cross wanted to see the detainees. Around that time they

7 were released. But I do know that later, when Muslims were leaving, the

8 father of this detainee Ferizovic, Fuad Ferizovic, also known as Beli,

9 who is number 15 of this list, his father approached me and said: Do you

10 know, Secretary, that my son had been beaten up in prison? And I said

11 that I was sorry and that I did not know. And then he told me about the

12 details. He did say something to the policeman, and the policeman beat

13 him up.

14 Q. I'm done with that exhibit. I'd like to talk to you, finally,

15 about Exhibit 1838, which I hope are the minutes of the 43rd session of

16 the Bosanski Petrovac Crisis Staff, held on June 29th, 1992. And I

17 believe that's a document that you've seen before, and let me know when

18 you've looked at it and you feel comfortable enough to talk about it.

19 A. Yes, it is coming back to me.

20 Q. Okay. If we look down under the agenda, we see Mr. Vrzina making

21 a statement about the military base. The record reflects, or this

22 document reflects that he said he had heard the military base and all the

23 depots were being transferred to Banja Luka. He was of the view that this

24 was impermissible and that it should not be allowed. You see that on the

25 face of the document; correct?

Page 20340

1 A. I do, yes.

2 Q. And the conclusion reached is to draft -- is, under number 3,

3 under conclusions, and that is basically to draft a letter of protest and

4 send it to the Supreme Command of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina; correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. The appeal, if you will, of this movement was not directed to the

8 ARK Crisis Staff, but rather taken directly to the military; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. I'm done with that exhibit. And the very last exhibit I want to

11 go to is the same one I started with today, and that is Exhibit P22. And

12 I'm almost finished with my questions, sir. I'm looking at the very first

13 paragraph, and I just want to confirm with you that this is an order of

14 the SDS in Sarajevo that was made public at a meeting of all the municipal

15 presidents on 26 October 1991 in Banja Luka, at a meeting chaired by

16 Dr. Karadzic. Am I correct?

17 A. That's what it says.

18 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you for your answers. I appreciate

19 your time.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. I take it that you have

21 re-examination.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes, I do.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I may -- could you keep that document,

25 P22, please, because you were asked a number of questions about it.

Page 20341

1 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:

2 Q. If you go, please, to item number 5, which you say was not put

3 into effect, take over management and public enterprises, the post office,

4 et cetera. Can you now, please, have a look at P1819.

5 Now, that's the meeting of the 26th of December, where you discuss

6 also what can be called the Variant A and B document. But can you go to

7 item number 7. Deputy Dragan Milanovic raised the question of personnel

8 changes in public enterprises. The vote was unanimous to replace the

9 directors of the power supply company and the veterinary station, while

10 support was extended to the director of the post, telegraph, and telegram

11 service.

12 Now, do you think it's possible there that you were complying with

13 item number 5 of the telegram?

14 A. I'm sorry. Under item 1, I can't find the minutes of the 1st

15 meeting of the party secretariat on the 26th of December, 1991.

16 Q. I'm sorry. Have you been given P1819? If you look, please, at

17 item 7 --

18 A. Oh, sorry. 7. Yes, that's right. Yes, 7.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Well, just read --

22 A. Yes, yes. Correct. I've read it, yes.

23 Q. All right. The question was: Do you think that you were

24 complying in this decision of the 26th of December with the order number 5

25 of the telex under Brdjanin's signature in October?

Page 20342












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Page 20343

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me. Just for the record, it does not bear

2 his signature.

3 MS. KORNER: Under his signature, I said.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's proceed.

5 A. Yes, I think that the minutes, or rather, the meeting was convened

6 by Mr. Milanovic, and he chaired it too. I think it was in a logical

7 order, yes.


9 Q. All right. So is the answer to my question yes?

10 A. The answer is yes.

11 Q. Right. Now, can I ask you this, please: The people who were to

12 be replaced --

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. This was in the evidence

14 of -- the evidence of the witness who testified on the 22nd of May, and

15 it's at page 16175. 16174.

16 Q. Now, was the director of the power supply company a Bosniak?

17 A. I'm not sure about him. As for the veterinary station, yes, I

18 know that he was a Muslim, or a Bosniak, if you prefer it.

19 Q. Right. Was the director of the post, telegraph, and telegram

20 service a Bosniak married to a Serb?

21 A. I'm not sure about the wife. I only talked with him once or twice

22 in the street. But it's possible. I don't know.

23 Q. Can you remember why the directors of the power supply company and

24 the veterinary station had to be replaced in December?

25 A. As for the electric power supply, I can't remember the exact

Page 20344

1 reason. As for the veterinary one, I do remember that, because that man,

2 as a person, interested me more. He was a passionate hunter. He even

3 hunted around my house, and I heard about him from my parents. There were

4 all sorts of personal remarks made at his dress, made about him, that he

5 was short-tempered or something. But I can't remember any specific

6 reason, I mean any reason that related to the office and the performance

7 that was mentioned, such as, for instance, failure to comply with -- to

8 perform one's duties.

9 Q. Did it have anything to do with the fact that both these men were

10 Bosniaks?

11 A. Well, I believe so.

12 Q. While we're still on the subject, please - you can put both those

13 documents back now - you were asked this morning about the directions

14 given to companies in Petrovac about dismissing their Bosniak employees.

15 Could you have, please, now a letter you looked at, I think yesterday or

16 the day before, P2452. It's the letter of the 21st of August, 1992.

17 A. If it's a letter that I signed, I remember it, because I read it

18 here several times.

19 Q. I know. I just need you to have it, please. This is the one that

20 you signed on behalf of Mr. Latinovic, which was to the SIP company, who

21 had clearly written before, status of the persons of Muslim nationality

22 concerning their work, in connection with your request to resolve the

23 issues of the status of the persons of Muslim nationality, we send you the

24 answer again, which consists of the following. And then you enclose, as

25 you told Mr. Cunningham, the decision of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

Page 20345

1 Crisis Staff.

2 You've told us you thought it was illegal. Why didn't you say

3 that to the company instead of just sending them the decision?

4 A. Well, precisely because we thought that this procedure -- I mean

5 the instruction, that that was illegal. Mr. Novakovic, and I think I told

6 you while we were still in Banja Luka, I told Mr. Novakovic that it ran

7 against the law and that we shouldn't assume the responsibility for

8 anything like it. And we wanted them to be aware of the decision so that

9 they could decide by themselves whether they would go along with it or

10 not, rather than have us assume the responsibility for it.

11 Q. The company was asking you, as the body of authority - I don't

12 mean you personally; you as the Crisis Staff - what they were supposed to

13 do. Why didn't you tell them?

14 A. Well, they basically wanted us to decide and then order them to

15 sack the Muslims from their company, among other places, and we refused

16 it, for the reasons that I have already mentioned. And we did not want to

17 say that to them because, as I said, we thought that that instruction was

18 against the law and that it could entail very grave consequences. But

19 perhaps I didn't quite understand what you meant.

20 Q. I think I'll ask the question one more time. You, as a lawyer,

21 have told us that you believed this instruction was, from the ARK Crisis

22 Staff, was unlawful because people were being removed simply for their

23 nationality, because of their nationality; is that right?

24 A. Yes, indeed, and I told the president that was a pure ethnic

25 discrimination.

Page 20346

1 Q. Absolutely. You didn't, however -- I'm sorry. I'll start that

2 question again. You and your president, when you were dealing with people

3 that came under your employ, didn't formally dismiss them; you sent them

4 home without pay. Is that right?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. Because otherwise you believed that you might be sued at the end

7 of the war for unlawful dismissal?

8 A. Exactly.

9 Q. Then why didn't you tell this company to do what you had been

10 doing, namely, to simply send the employees home rather than outright

11 dismissal, as this order of the Crisis Staff said?

12 A. For two reasons, the first one being because, in principle, they

13 knew what we had done with our employees and they could follow in our

14 steps. And the second reason is that if we issued such an instruction

15 officially, they might have disseminated and then we could possibly suffer

16 consequences for trying to evade those instructions.

17 Q. Absolutely. And that's the truth, isn't it, as you told

18 Mr. Cunningham, that you would be held accountable if you tried to go

19 against the instructions of the Crisis Staff of the region?

20 A. Yes. Yes. The municipal leadership would have been held

21 accountable.

22 Q. All right. Now, I want to deal with two other topics that was

23 just touched upon. One is disarmament. It was put to you that you

24 couldn't disarm the Serbian paramilitaries, and you corrected that and

25 said that they weren't Serbian paramilitaries. But you, in actual fact --

Page 20347

1 if you look, please, again at 1833, first of all, please.

2 Mr. Gacesa - we've been through this before - was telling the

3 Crisis Staff what was happening, and this is the list of 40 people. The

4 operation to disarm Muslim paramilitary units and citizens is continuing.

5 The only disarmament that took place in Petrovac was of the Muslims,

6 wasn't it?

7 A. I don't have that document in Serbian, but what you say is true.

8 Q. That's all right. Don't worry.

9 And if we look again, and perhaps you needn't bother, because

10 we've already looked at it at P1842, the list that was sent of arms that

11 had been seized, most of them were legally owned hunting rifles, and as

12 you've told us already, the Muslims. Now, can you just also have back one

13 of the documents you were asked to look at a moment ago, again please,

14 P1838.

15 Mr. Latinovic was not a member of the army, was he? He was the

16 president of the Executive Board.

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. He was of the opinion that all Muslims fit for military service

19 should be singled out and imprisoned to ensure the Serbs' personal

20 safety. So he's not talking there about people who possess illegal arms,

21 is he?

22 A. That is what the minutes say. That is true. But I think that

23 what it was about was those people on whom weapons -- but I mean army

24 weapons were found. Because, to begin with, technically it wasn't really

25 feasible, because it would be six or seven hundred people to have there

Page 20348












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13 English transcripts.













Page 20349

1 for all the Muslims isolated and put in detention. I mean, it wasn't --

2 it couldn't be done. And I think simply that this note is not quite

3 right. But we're talking about individuals on -- who were found to own

4 weapons, and it was on the basis on general conviction or belief among the

5 Serbs that they looked or might present a danger.

6 Q. I'm sorry. So that we all understand: Are you saying that these

7 minutes have made a mistake, that Mr. Latinovic wasn't suggesting that all

8 Muslims who were of military age should be locked up, but it actually said

9 that all Muslims who possess illegal arms should be locked up? Because

10 that's -- before you answer, if you look at the conclusion, that repeats

11 that the persons arrested -- a plan should be made to arrest and bring

12 under custody all Muslims fit for military service, not who possess

13 illegal weapons.

14 If you look back, sir, wasn't it the fact that the people who were

15 being locked up were those simply who were of military age?

16 A. In the conclusion, you have the second part of the sentence, who

17 could be -- who perhaps could do some harm to Serbs. So that was the

18 proposal. But from my personal knowledge, people -- the persons who were

19 detained, at least, that is my assessment. I don't know what official

20 papers from the times say. But to my mind, not all of those who were

21 detained were fit for military service. I remember a man, for instance,

22 who was a cobbler, and he repaired some shoes for me, and he was an

23 elderly man, and I heard that he had been detained. He was released

24 eventually, but nevertheless, yes, he had been detained. And he had his

25 shop not far from the municipal hall.

Page 20350

1 Q. In your view, as a lawyer, as has been stressed, were these people

2 who were detained entitled to due legal process? And by that, I mean to

3 be charged with an offence, to be tried.

4 A. Yes, under the statute they enjoyed all the rights, and that was

5 one of the main problems, and refusals by the chief of the police to act

6 accordingly. He said that he wouldn't accept it because of the tense

7 relations, and there was a danger that it could escalate, but that

8 everybody had to be aware. And he said that explicitly of it, and that he

9 would consult his superiors and that he would set all those men free when

10 the first opportunity presented itself. After he considered the charges.

11 That took a day or two, because there was the legal deadline by which you

12 had to release them, and that was three days at that time, and I remember

13 him saying that clearly to Mr. Novakovic. He said: As for those who were

14 found to possess illegal weapons, yes, there are legal grounds to press

15 charges against them. But in all the other cases where no material

16 evidence was found, I have to let them go.

17 Q. These people were kept in these detention facilities, as you put

18 them, for some months, weren't they?

19 A. I don't think it was several months, but I'm not sure. My

20 impression is that they were kept there for a shorter period of time. I

21 know that there was a Red Cross delegation from Knin, which came from Knin

22 and requested to visit them and was supposed to go towards the evening,

23 but it was dusk and they were afraid to do that in darkness. So the next

24 day I went there and we got there in the afternoon, the people had already

25 been released from detention.

Page 20351

1 Q. All right.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I have a few more questions.

3 That may be an appropriate --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a break.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I rather feel -- I don't know whether

6 Your Honours do have any questions. I've got about another 15 minutes.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm pretty sure that we all have.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm wondering if it's not better then to

10 just start the next witness tomorrow. We may be able to conclude him

11 completely him in one day.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You have 15 minutes.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: More or less, we're talking of five, two, three, and

15 maybe I have got another five or ten minutes.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it's hardly worth keeping the

17 witness here.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. All right.

19 MS. KORNER: I think we may as well start him fresh tomorrow

20 morning.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think yesterday you said that you wanted to hand

22 some documents to the witness.

23 MS. KORNER: No. No, no, Your Honour. Yes. We're going to

24 keep -- when he's finished after he's had some lunch we're going to ask

25 him to go through -- we've got schedules for Your Honours and for

Page 20352

1 Mr. Cunningham of the documents he's already authenticated and he's going

2 to go through the other ones when he's finished testifying, and make a

3 statement.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So 25-minutes' break.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


9 Q. Sir, I just want to deal with some small points that you were

10 asked about. You were asked about the Sokol society, and you said you

11 were a member; is that right?

12 A. Mr. Novakovic, when he made contact with this organisation, he in

13 fact recommended me as the president, and formally I was the president of

14 that society, not just a member.

15 Q. All right. But in fact, wasn't the president a young doctor or a

16 medical student named Nenad Stevandic?

17 A. That's true. For all of the Sokol organisations, he was. Their

18 seat was in Banja Luka and I was supposed to organise the association or

19 the organisation in Petrovac, but I didn't manage that.

20 Q. All right. Next, can I deal with a point that you were asked

21 about in relation to the Crisis Staff meeting in Banja Luka that you

22 attended, the regional Crisis Staff. You were asked about the recording

23 of that meeting. Do you remember telling us in the interview that there

24 was a microphone in front of the speakers? Page 84 of the interview.

25 A. Yes. Yes. As far as I recall, it was recorded, yes. And the

Page 20353

1 microphone, I think, was certainly in front of the chairperson, yes.

2 Q. Now, next, and this is at page 48 of yesterday's LiveNote, you

3 were asked about the alignment of Bosanski Petrovac, even after April 1991

4 it was suggested that it was still aligned more to Bihac than to the --

5 well, to Banja Luka. Can I ask you just to have a look for a moment, very

6 quickly, please, at Exhibit P61, 61.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's not on my list. It's arisen as a

8 result of cross-examination. If we can just put, please, the English,

9 first page English, onto the ELMO. That's a list of representatives in

10 the Krajina Autonomous Region Assembly.

11 Q. If you look down at numbers 21 to 25 on the list, these were the

12 representatives from Bosanski Petrovac, one of which was Mr. Latinovic,

13 effectively your boss. Were you aware that he was attending meetings of

14 the Autonomous Region of Krajina Assembly?

15 A. I don't have that page. I know on one occasion that he attended

16 and that later on he reported on that. I was not certain whether he was a

17 permanent member, but then according to the list he must have been. I

18 know for sure that Mr. Novakovic was and I also said that I thought that

19 Mr. Milanovic as a deputy must have been as well.

20 Q. Don't worry about that. That's all I want to ask on that

21 document, so that can go. Now, you were asked a whole series of questions

22 about the military presence and pressures on you and that of the police,

23 and you agreed with the suggestion that was put to you that the primary

24 obstacle, the overriding obstacle to doing the right thing in the

25 municipal government was the military. That's page 54 of yesterday's

Page 20354

1 LiveNote. You said: "Well, not in fact the command but simply the units

2 that were out of control." If the military was such an obstacle to good

3 government, did you or Mr. -- well, I'm sorry. Did Mr. Novakovic ever

4 think of going to see General Boric, who was in charge of the 2nd Krajina

5 Corps?

6 A. He did go on several occasions. These were very heated

7 discussions, not only at General Boric's, but also at lower-level

8 commands. But these were informal meetings. As far as I know, there were

9 also telephone protests and so on.

10 Q. But why informal meetings? If you - as you agreed with the

11 suggestion of Mr. Cunningham - were not able to properly run Bosanski

12 Petrovac because of the behaviour of the military, or military units, why

13 didn't you ask for a formal meeting with the general?

14 A. When I said that these were informal meetings, I mean from the

15 point of view of our organs. There were no minutes that were taken on our

16 side. And as a rule, to these meetings, our delegation from our municipal

17 functionaries would go to their headquarters, whether they took minutes

18 there, I don't know. We had to go over there. They did not consider the

19 municipal leadership as an equal negotiator. They didn't consider any

20 municipal leadership as an equal partner. There were a lot of problems

21 with that. But these were informal meetings, but not like the meetings of

22 the Crisis Staff, for instance. They did meet over there, as far as I

23 know, at least. I know that these meetings were planned, and people did

24 go to these meetings.

25 Q. You told us that Mr. Novakovic was a person of influence who could

Page 20355

1 pick up a telephone and directly speak to Mr. Karadzic. Do you know

2 whether Mr. Karadzic -- I'm sorry, whether Mr. Novakovic ever raised this

3 with Mr. Karadzic?

4 A. I don't know for certain, but out of some of his conversations, I

5 know that he did raise this issue at a meeting which was informal, I

6 listened to deputy Milanovic when he said that General Mladic was a

7 renegade and that he was not talking to Karadzic or to anyone else. I

8 know that there were quite considerable conflicts. By the end of 1994, at

9 a closed meeting, I was present and that's how I saw that.

10 Q. Right. I'm not interested in 1994. You were being asked about

11 1992. In 1992, if, as you say, nothing could be controlled because the

12 military were out of control, or units were out of control, do you know

13 whether Mr. Novakovic picked up the telephone to speak to Mr. Karadzic so

14 that he could speak to Mladic, with whichever chain of command? And just

15 answer that yes or no, if you can, please.

16 A. No, because the telephone wasn't considered a secure means of

17 communication for such a conversation.

18 Q. It was put to you that the military didn't turn up to the Crisis

19 Staff meetings. It's right, though, isn't it, if we went back through all

20 the records that we've looked at today, there was always a military

21 representative present at those meetings in 1992, with maybe the exception

22 of the one on the 23rd of September?

23 A. Yes, that's true.

24 Q. Now, you told us about the incident where retired military

25 officers came and offered to set up a military court, and you've told us

Page 20356

1 that one of the problems was that the military were not subject to

2 civilian courts; they had to be tried by a military court. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Precisely, that's how it was according to law.

5 Q. Then why not, if you had this lawless military in Bosanski

6 Petrovac, accept the offer to set up a military court so that people

7 committing offences, who wore military uniform, could be tried?

8 A. Because it was an unlawful request. That kind of military court

9 that they proposed was not lawful. There was a proper military court,

10 which unfortunately wasn't operational. It existed within the Banja Luka

11 Corps, which was competent for everything. It was a different story.

12 They did not wish to process cases. But we, as a municipality, to

13 establish a military court, that was completely unlawful.

14 Q. Now, you were asked about your record of the meeting of the 7th of

15 June and the fact that, according to what you say - that's the 7th of June

16 in Palanka - the matters that were raised in the document were not

17 discussed at the meeting. Mr. Latinovic went through that document,

18 though, didn't he, when he talked to the Crisis Staff about it? And

19 that's P236. Just have that for one moment, P236, which is the meeting of

20 the 9th of June. I'm sorry. Not Mr. Latinovic; Mr. Novakovic.

21 Mr. Novakovic briefed those present on the conclusions adopted by

22 the Autonomous Region Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, subregions of the

23 municipalities forwarded certain proposals to the AR Krajina government

24 for a prompt organisation of the army and regulation of a central

25 services, et cetera, et cetera.

Page 20357

1 So Mr. Novakovic knew what was in that document, didn't he?

2 A. I believe he did know, except that here Mr. Novakovic, speaking

3 about the ARK, while the other thing was a regional meeting of the

4 subregion, of a smaller association of municipalities. I believe that

5 Mr. Latinovic attended the meeting. That's what comes out from the

6 documents. And I think that I only was concentrating on transmitting the

7 message, which was to do with material damage and looting from one

8 commander to the next. So I wasn't active at the meeting, and that's

9 probably why I don't have any notes from then.

10 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you told Mr. Cunningham that,

11 effectively, you implemented those decisions of the regional Crisis Staff

12 which you could and which applied to your municipality. Now, do you have

13 any recollection of any decision of the Crisis Staff that you -- of the

14 regional Crisis Staff that you did not put into effect?

15 A. Well, today, from that list, although that was the list of the

16 SDS, for certain reasons we didn't implement some things. For instance,

17 from the Crisis Staff of the ARK, we didn't implement things to do with

18 the mobilisation, because it had already been implemented, in essence.

19 That had already been done. And also in connection with the dismissals,

20 that we simply bypassed.

21 Q. Well, I want to deal with that in a moment, but you did, in

22 effect, whether you called it a dismissal or leave without pay, as you've

23 already told us, implement the Crisis Staff decision; indeed, you sent a

24 copy of it to the companies?

25 A. That's true, yes.

Page 20358

1 Q. You see, I mean, if we just take one example, and could you have,

2 briefly, P227.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, even with mobilisation, because

4 the witness keeps saying that mobilisation -- they never needed to

5 implement any decision.

6 MS. KORNER: I'm about to deal with this, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There are ample exhibits here, or documents here,

8 that keep repeating exactly the opposite.

9 MS. KORNER: Quite, Your Honour. Can we just take exactly the

10 example I was about to choose.

11 Q. Could you look, please, at the 4th Gazette, that is the 8th of May

12 meeting. Item number 1, presidents of the National Defence councils are

13 to supply detailed information to the war staff of the Autonomous Region

14 of Krajina about mobilisation. And I'm not going to give you the document

15 again, but P1828, you write --

16 A. I remember that. Yes, I remember the document. Yes.

17 Q. On the 10th of May, President Novakovic, as president of the

18 national Security Council writes, giving that information, doesn't he?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. The president's -- item number 3, presidents of the National

21 Defence council are to report to the war staff of the Autonomous Region of

22 Krajina about any actions they may have taken in order to disarm

23 paramilitary units. A report is made, isn't it, about that when it

24 happens?

25 A. It is, yes.

Page 20359

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not going to carry on on that

2 point.

3 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, finally, and this is how matters began

4 yesterday, when you were cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham. He put to you

5 something you had said in interview, at the end, I believe it was, that

6 you believed that the authorities in Bosanski Petrovac - this is page 37

7 of yesterday's LiveNote - did whatever was possible. "The essential goal,

8 the essential intention, was for people to be removed from danger, and

9 unfortunately, if you look at it from the outside, we seem exactly the

10 same, in a way, as the municipalities that organised the persecution of

11 their population and organised their removal."

12 The first question is: Which municipalities were you thinking

13 of?

14 A. It's difficult to name individual municipalities, but in the

15 press, I read on various occasions, especially after the war, and up to an

16 extent in the wartime press, written, printed by refugees. For instance,

17 a paper published by Muslims, refugees from Sanski Most. And they

18 explicitly said there that they had been rounded up and forced out, forced

19 to become refugees. I also learnt about the municipality of Banja Luka,

20 that there were such round-ups. I could see on Belgrade television, and I

21 could hear people make statements how they had been rounded up and how

22 they had even to pay to be allowed to leave and considerable amounts at

23 that. So these are municipalities that I meant, for instance, and you can

24 find a lot of it in the press.

25 Q. You had a lot of contact with the municipality of Prijedor and

Page 20360

1 Dr. Stakic, didn't you?

2 A. No. These contacts that existed happened twice, and I described

3 them in full. The president may have communicated more often, but not at

4 the time when Stakic became the president of the Serb Democratic Party for

5 the subregion.

6 Q. All right. Would you describe Prijedor as one of the

7 municipalities that organised the persecution of the population and their

8 removal?

9 A. Well, on the basis of the information that I found, as I have

10 described, yes, I believe that Prijedor was one of those municipalities,

11 and after all, it is common knowledge as to what went on in Prijedor. And

12 today, on our television, we often see stories about people expelled, I

13 mean taken from their homes, and so on. But at that time, I didn't know

14 about it because it was all -- nobody spoke about this. There was silence

15 about it. None of the municipal mayors, at least the meeting I was

16 present, you couldn't hear anything about that, even though one heard that

17 Muslims were leaving our municipalities. But simply, whether it was a

18 taboo subject or not, perhaps in those circles who were rather broad when

19 I was, I mean, present there, so they didn't discuss it, but it was never

20 mentioned. People knew that -- that there were people leaving but nobody

21 knew exactly how.

22 Q. You said to Mr. Cunningham, or Mr. Cunningham put to you that some

23 people might draw the conclusion that Petrovac was involved in

24 persecution, in organised removal, for cleansing purposes, but that really

25 wasn't the case. And he said: "I want to see if you agree with that

Page 20361

1 proposition." And you said: "I agree. It wasn't like that. The

2 situation wasn't like that." That's page 37.

3 Can we just go through what happened in Bosanski Petrovac. The

4 Serbs in Bosanski Petrovac armed themselves. You agree with that?

5 A. Well, the way that the question was worded, I tried to give a

6 brief answer. But yes, I agree with what you said there.

7 Q. Muslims were disarmed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The Muslims were sent home from work. If you want to draw the

10 distinction, they were sent home without pay rather than being actually

11 dismissed, but in some cases they were actually dismissed, weren't they?

12 A. Yes. Well, I believe that they were, because it was a legal

13 nicety, and I'm not sure that in various companies they really understood

14 what it meant.

15 Q. They handed over their property, and I'm not going to take you to

16 the documents, but on the basis that they were leaving the municipality

17 permanently, they handed their property over to the municipality

18 permanently; that's right, isn't it?

19 A. Yes. I explained how things were done. But if you put it that

20 way, then yes.

21 Q. I'm just outlining the various things you've told us about.

22 Muslims were imprisoned, weren't they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at the end, in September, every single Muslim, virtually, left

25 the municipality?

Page 20362

1 A. Except for an insignificant number, yes, correct.

2 Q. Well, I'm just going to put to you the figures. This is Exhibit

3 P60. I don't want to have to waste time bringing the document to you.

4 But would you accept that in 1991 the official census recorded that there

5 were 3.288 Muslims in Bosanski Petrovac?

6 A. I believe it to be an accurate figure. Perhaps slightly more.

7 Q. Could you have a look, please, at P56. These were figures

8 compiled by the SNB in Banja Luka in May of 1993. If you turn to number

9 20 on the list, you see -- number 10, sorry. Moved out, Muslims, 3.200.

10 Now, sir, you may not have desired personally that to happen, but in

11 actual fact what happened, wasn't it, in Petrovac was ethnic cleansing in

12 the same way as all the other municipalities?

13 A. Basically, yes, but I want to clarify, because I see that

14 something is not -- misunderstood. When it comes to Muslims who moved

15 out. On the 23rd of September, Muslims who lived in the village of Bjelaj

16 stayed there, because of a very short deadline, we couldn't organise the

17 transport for them. There was a danger that we might be waylaid, that we

18 might be caught in an ambush.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: How many of them in this village in September, 23rd

20 of September? How many of them were left in this village?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all those who lived

22 there, they stayed on, because technically, it was not possible to

23 evacuate them.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And when did they leave?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember exactly. They

Page 20363

1 left -- was it the end of 1992 or beginning of 1993? I remember it was a

2 very cold. I escorted that convoy. I was put in charge of escorting it

3 through Croatia and transferred that population to the area of Bihac. But

4 we entered it from the Croatian side. We went through Krajina.


6 Q. Final question is this, sir: You told us twice, I think, already,

7 that you had to implement the regional Crisis Staff decisions even though

8 you didn't agree with them, because otherwise you would have been removed.

9 If you morally didn't agree with the persecution of non-Serbs, why didn't

10 you resign? Why didn't President Novakovic resign?

11 A. I don't know about Mr. Novakovic. I did not resign because I

12 didn't know where would I go. And at any rate, I would have been

13 mobilised to a unit, and it was quite uncertain if I would survive in that

14 case. And at that time, one couldn't really flee anywhere seriously,

15 because there were checkpoints and controls all over the place, be they of

16 the police or the army. So that was one reason. And another one was the

17 resignation, especially in Mr. Novakovic's case, and on one occasion I

18 believe I told you that I think he thought that the situation would only

19 get worse if he resigned, even though he gave it serious thought. But

20 then he thought about who might take his place, and invariably he

21 concluded that that person would have enjoyed less authority and to resist

22 some of the decisions or behaviors.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge, there are a few questions from the

25 Bench. Judge Janu will start.

Page 20364

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE JANU: Yes, I have a few simple questions for you, sir.

3 Looking at your diary, at entry 20th of July, 1992, you don't need that

4 document. I will -- you write: Banja Luka. And you are discussing to

5 ask Rosic about Svabo, the judge, and you end this day with the sentence:

6 To examine defining of Serbian national question. My questions are

7 concerning this issue: Was there any official definition of

8 national -- Serbian national question? Second question is: Were you

9 tasked to work on this definition? Yes, please, you can answer.

10 A. No, there was no such definition, and therein the rub. This note,

11 such as it is, means that I was instructed to possibly go to a meeting,

12 but not with Rosic, in ARK Krajina. Therefore, if I went to that

13 meeting, to ask whether it had been defined -- to ask whether it was

14 defined, and how. Because that was one of the questions that people on

15 the ground kept asking.

16 As for the answer to your second question, no, I was not -- I

17 wasn't either that important or that qualified to be incorporated in

18 something like that. But there was constantly informal talk about it, and

19 yet nobody defined it.

20 JUDGE JANU: And sir, I'm still with this point. Taking into the

21 consideration your position and your intelligent order where your mind is

22 working, as I could observe it here during your testimony, I'm sure you

23 were being in the position you were, you were defining this question or

24 you were thinking about it. Could you present us with your own

25 definition, what the national Serbian question was?

Page 20365

1 A. Well, one of the first indications of separation along ethnic

2 lines began to emerge and when conflict started, I took it to mean, in the

3 first place -- and when I talked with my friends about it - and I must say

4 that my company was mostly made of Croats, because I lived in Zagreb. And

5 there was a lot of dispute as to about what the Serb national question

6 might be, the question -- the territorial question invariably arrived,

7 the partitioning always arose and we couldn't agree on that. But if I

8 were to define it on my then point of view as to what the Serb national

9 question was, then perhaps the best way to put it would be that members of

10 the Serb people should be ensured the rights which are usual. For

11 instance, the Serbs in Croatia, because that was the topic closest to me.

12 I wasn't -- I didn't know which order I would embark later on. And I

13 thought that the form of the cultural autonomy and economic development

14 advocated by the then leadership of the Serb Democratic Party in Croatia

15 whilst Dr. Raskovic was its head, that option was -- I could accept best,

16 to ensure that the functioning and equality in Croatia. Because

17 regardless of all the propaganda, I do not think that it existed.

18 Because, yes, perhaps there was a larger than average number of Serbs in

19 the army or in the police, but nobody mentioned the reasons for it, and

20 those were not attractive jobs. They were rural population and they were

21 coming to the urban environment. Serbs could never get jobs in banks, in

22 large foundations, or other key --

23 JUDGE JANU: I think we should be -- we should end with this

24 question, just additional question. You know personally Vuk Draskovic?

25 A. No, I never met him.

Page 20366

1 JUDGE JANU: No ideas are close to you, or his ideas are close to

2 you?

3 A. To be quite honest, I don't know. Various occasions Vuk came up

4 with different assertions, but I just don't know. And I understood

5 Dr. Raskovic's, there is no Draskovic, it is Dr. Raskovic and I felt that

6 his ideas were close to me, but he was removed later on.

7 JUDGE JANU: I thought you are talking about Vuk Draskovic. My

8 second question concerns Mr. Novakovic. Could you please provide the

9 Chamber with conditions under which Mr. Novakovic was mobilised. Was it

10 normal in his position to be mobilised? And the same question concerning

11 to you, because you were mobilised unlawfully, as you said, as well. So

12 if you can be very concise, please, because of the time. I'm sorry.

13 A. Yes, I'll be concise. Mr. Novakovic was never officially

14 mobilised, but under the pressure of the commands, which -- that is how I

15 see it, who instigated ordinary soldiers. He had to go to visit the

16 combat units and their positions. He had to do it all the time. And that

17 was a much more dangerous business than being a soldier in a trench,

18 because you go there, you have no idea about either your own or the enemy

19 firing positions. And during one such visit, he was ambushed and killed.

20 I was indeed mobilised, but I received summons for it only the first time.

21 JUDGE JANU: And you said in your testimony that he was killed on

22 our side, on the Serbian side. So did you learn later on some details

23 about his death?

24 A. Listen, I was a soldier on that particular position, a few hundred

25 metres away, and he was half dead as they carried him by. I never learned

Page 20367

1 exactly what happened, and I don't think that anyone knows. You know,

2 there are always rumours when a public figure like that perishes, you

3 know. One doesn't know exactly. But officially, it is thought that he

4 was killed by the Muslim -- by Muslims troops. But he wasn't in a

5 position that was his, properly speaking. It happened, I think, in

6 October, or perhaps November.

7 JUDGE JANU: So you personally don't believe that it was the

8 Muslim army who killed him?

9 A. I just cannot say. I do not know. I say there were rumours that

10 citizens spread rumours. Personally, I do not trust those rumours.

11 JUDGE JANU: Okay. And my last question: Do you recall some

12 names or a single name of Serbian person, civilian, who was killed by --

13 in Bosanski Petrovac by a Muslim, Muslim extremist? I'm talking about

14 1991, 1992, of course.

15 A. I do not remember any such case. I don't think that there was

16 such a case. But I don't know.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I have the cooperation of the interpreters and

19 technicians to go on for the next seven to ten minutes.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Not longer than ten minutes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I thank you so much.

22 Judge Taya will be asking you a few questions.

23 JUDGE TAYA: On page 18 of your interview, you said in sum that

24 you thought Mr. Brdjanin administratively incapable and arrogant character

25 and you also said that appraisal of yours about Brdjanin was drawn from

Page 20368

1 your personal experience meeting with him and also others' negative saying

2 about him. My question is: Among those who said negative things about

3 Brdjanin, were there any members of ARK Crisis Staff?

4 A. Well, Mr. Novakovic, he was dissatisfied with his work, and I

5 think that Mr. Latinovic, Mr. Milanovic, I cannot remember what they said

6 specifically, but it was my impression that they thought that the ARK

7 Crisis Staff did not work properly. Besides, the Official Gazettes, with

8 decisions that they carried, led me to the same impression too.

9 JUDGE TAYA: On page 75 of your interview, you said you knew that

10 there was a general discontent with Brdjanin's work. My question is: Do

11 you know whether or not this general discontent sentiment was common among

12 the members of ARK Crisis Staff?

13 A. That I do not know, but from what our representatives who attended

14 meetings said, they seemed to say that the representatives of other

15 municipalities were dissatisfied too.

16 JUDGE TAYA: What impression did you have about the extent of

17 support which Brdjanin enjoyed from the members of ARK Crisis Staff during

18 1992?

19 A. Well, on the basis of what was being said, it was my impression

20 that they were not really supporting him and that he was dismissed at some

21 point. I don't know from which office and moved to which office. But I

22 know there was such talk amongst them, informal though it may have been.

23 JUDGE TAYA: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I have very few questions left, because some

25 of the territory was covered before by Ms. Korner, in particular. Let's

Page 20369

1 go straight to one point that you testified upon. That's what you

2 referred to as renegade militaries, and sometimes also paramilitaries.

3 And you did state at one time that they were sometimes arrested by the

4 police, but then, since they belonged to the military, they were released

5 to the military. Do you know of any proceedings that the military may

6 have instituted against these persons that were referred to the military

7 by the police?

8 A. To my knowledge, the army's reaction was very -- or rather, their

9 command reacted very mildly. From what I heard, only a few of those men

10 received disciplinary punishment. But I'm not aware of any criminal

11 charges being brought against any one of them.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: In your interview, and also during the

13 cross-examination, you were referred to the Topalovic incident, and you

14 stated, and also testified, that the police chief, Gacesa, at one point

15 was furious and he said that he will never arrest anyone again unless he

16 received orders from Banja Luka. When he referred to orders from Banja

17 Luka, what was he referring to, or who was he referring to?

18 A. I think the Security Services Centre, specifically, and its head,

19 I think, was Mr. Zupljanin, Stojan Zupljanin.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. May the witness please be given Exhibits

21 P1807 and P1837. Let's start with the first one. You will have an

22 opportunity to see it now. In Exhibit 1837 -- 1807 is the minutes of the

23 representatives of the Crisis Staff of the Petrovac municipality. Last

24 page, decision numbered 2, ethnic Muslims shall be engaged in the

25 companies and organisations in accordance with the need that is at the

Page 20370

1 request of the companies and organisations which employ them. This

2 request must be based on the needs determined in the agreed plan of war

3 production. Jovica Sepa voted against this decision. Why ethnic Muslims

4 and not every other person?

5 A. Precisely because of the pressures that we've talked about, to

6 engage any Muslims anywhere. And when one looked for a way of engaging

7 them, of getting them to work in the companies that they worked before,

8 but now under labour obligation. And this is a specific form of work, of

9 people fit to serve the army.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I took the impression while you were testifying that

11 when asked about the refusal to take the oath of allegiance, or swear

12 allegiance to Republika Srpska was not a ground for dismissal or

13 laying off or putting employees on unpaid leave. Did I get the right

14 impression? Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, you are right. There was nothing formal. It was merely on

16 the basis of that, whether somebody had reported to the army command,

17 which one had been summoned to. So this was an informal criterion.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Could you please look at Exhibit P1837, which

19 deals with the decision taken by the Petrovac municipality executive

20 committee to lay off on paid -- unpaid leave, leave without pay, a certain

21 Senada Mehdin. And in the part entitled "statement of reasons" does it

22 say that the Crisis Staff decision, whatever, establishes the obligation

23 to remove from positions specified in item 1 of the decision all workers

24 of Muslim and Serbian ethnicity who, to date, have not given their support

25 to the legitimate government and constitution of Republika Srpska and

Page 20371

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you stand by your previous statement or would

2 you like to comment on this? Very shortly, because we are running out of

3 time.

4 A. Basically, I stand by what I said before.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a document, P1836, dated 23rd of June, 1992

6 and signed for Rajko Novakovic which inter alia says mixed police,

7 Territorial Defence and military police patrols shall have the right and

8 obligation to apprehend all such persons, persons that are described in

9 the previous paragraph. On or after the 23rd of June, 1992, were you

10 aware of any such mixed patrols?

11 A. Such patrols existed, and I said it. I said it even today in my

12 testimony. But I will allow -- I mean, it sounded clear to me, but quite

13 possible that others who only read documents understand it. When I

14 mentioned the Territorial Defence, the mobilisation of more prominent

15 citizens who would patrol and protect Muslim houses and streets, so these

16 are the patrols that I meant and that are indicated here. I do not know

17 whether a police, military police patrolled with them, but the civilian

18 police and those men who did it cooperated fully in trying to prevent

19 whatever, I mean killings, violence, looting, and so on and so forth, and

20 the president merely draws the attention to that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. My last question, and please give me a very

22 short answer. You referred to -- Ms. Korner first referred to the events

23 in late September when practically all the Muslims left the municipality,

24 and you referred to some of them remaining in the Bjelaj local commune. I

25 would like you to see P1859, which is an order or decision by the

Page 20372

1 president of the Municipal Assembly. After that, practically all the

2 Muslims had left the municipality, with the exception of small local

3 commune, saying the Petrovac public security station is hereby entrusted

4 to increase patrols in areas where a large number of Muslims live, and

5 especially in the Bjelaj local commune and rigorous measures are to be

6 proposed against any person who threatened the Muslim right to peace,

7 life, and work, or rather, they are to be arrested and handed over to

8 judicial authority.

9 Was there any such decision taken and made public prior to October

10 1992, when there were more, much more Muslims in the municipality than

11 what was left on the 28th of October, a decision in such strong terms?

12 A. No, not worded like this.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I thank you, Judge. I know this

14 wasn't easy, because you have been testifying for three days plus. On

15 behalf of the Tribunal, I should like to thank you for having come over to

16 give testimony in this trial. On behalf of everyone present here, I also

17 wish to wish you a safe journey back home, and you will receive all the

18 attention and all the assistance you require to enable you to do this at

19 the earliest possible opportunity. Thank you.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, does Your Honour want the list now of

21 the documents?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have kept everyone beyond --

23 MS. KORNER: I'll ask Mr. --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And in fact I should like again to enter a

25 declaration of appreciation and thanks to all the staff, particularly the

Page 20373

1 interpreters and the technicians, for overstaying with us, enabling us to

2 finish with this witness. I thank you all, and we will reconvene tomorrow

3 morning at 9.00. Thanks.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th day of

6 July 2003, at 9.00 a.m.