1 Tuesday, 21 October 2003

2 [Closed session]

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25 [Open session]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. TIEGER: Pardon me, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

4 MR. TIEGER: Before the next witness is brought in, I would ask

5 that Mr. Resch and I be excused, and we thank the Court for this

6 opportunity, and counsel as well. And it may also be the case that

7 Ms. Sutherland would welcome the opportunity to enter as we exit.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But where is Ms. Sutherland? Ms. Gustin is

9 looking after that. Yes. Okay.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Tieger. Thank you, Mr. Resch.

12 The witness is here. Who will be leading -- you will be leading,

13 but who will be cross-examining?

14 MS. CHANA: I believe Ms. Sutherland is cross-examining.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you. Can you follow what I am

18 saying in a language that you can understand? Are you receiving

19 interpretation in Serbo-Croat?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you very well. Thank

21 you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman, we are agreed that this will be

23 in open session?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. You are about to start giving evidence, and

1 before you do so, our Rules require that you enter, you make a solemn

2 declaration, equivalent to an oath, in terms of which you undertake that

3 in the course of your testimony, you will speak the truth, the whole

4 truth, and nothing but the truth. The text, I see, has already been

5 handed to you by the usher, so what's left is that you read that out

6 aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking, equivalent to an oath.

7 Please proceed.

8 WITNESS: BORO MANDIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Mr. Ackerman:

15 Q. Good morning, sir.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Your name is Boro Mandic; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were born on 20 February of 1951?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell the Chamber, if you will, about your educational background.

22 What schools did you attend, what degrees did you receive, where did you

23 go to school? Just a general statement of your educational background.

24 A. I am a lawyer and an economist. I have both degrees. I completed

25 the secondary management school in Zagreb in 1970, after which I found

1 employment, and in parallel with employment, I continued to study law. I

2 got my degree in economics in 1976 and my law degree in 1989, at the Banja

3 Luka university.

4 Q. And what was your employment during the time that you were

5 studying?

6 A. Throughout my university studies of both economics and law, I was

7 employed. I worked all that time in the Municipal Assembly of Celinac

8 from the 1st of July, 1972.

9 Q. What kind of jobs did you hold for the municipality of Celinac?

10 A. At the Celinac Municipal Assembly I occupied many different

11 positions. Most of the time I spent in verification authorities,

12 inspection authorities, working as a trade inspector, inspector of labour

13 and labour safety, and I also worked as an auditor. For a while I was

14 also heading the audit department. In the 1980s, or more precisely 1983,

15 I was elected secretary of the Municipal Assembly and served for one term

16 of office. After that, I returned to inspection services, where I

17 continued to work until 1988.

18 Correction. 1998.

19 In 1998 I was elected secretary of the Municipal Assembly, in

20 which office I stayed until the first multiparty elections in Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. As secretary of the Municipal Assembly, I served as

22 secretary of the municipal electoral committee during the first multiparty

23 elections. I did that job well, and on the 19th of December, 1990, I

24 participated as an expert and secretary of the Municipal Assembly in the

25 transition or transfer of duties from the old government to the new

1 government, which won the majority of votes at the multiparty elections.

2 Q. The transcript reflects, sir, that you said that you were elected

3 secretary of the Municipal Assembly in 1998, and I think it was 1988 that

4 that happened, was it not?

5 A. 1988. I'm sorry about this. 1988.

6 Q. Yes. Did there ever come a time that you had any kind of

7 responsibilities with regard to the Executive Board in Celinac

8 municipality?

9 A. Well, as for my responsibility in the electoral committee, during

10 my first term of office, and at the old government in 1983, in 1984, and

11 under the new government from early January 1990, I occupied that

12 position, as secretary of the electoral committee, I was in charge of

13 administrative affairs and technical affairs.

14 Q. All right. Sir, we traditionally take a break at 10.30, so you've

15 been here a very short time. I think the Court will want to take a short

16 recess now and we'll get right back to you. Thank you.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: I wasn't expecting Your Honours to go right on before

20 the break.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I explained that I have a meeting with the registrar

22 at 10.30, so stopping earlier would have frustrated that meeting.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's no problem. Can I at some stage

24 during today just raise a couple of administrative matters. I will be in

25 Court for the rest of the day.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you prefer immediately after we resume?

2 MS. KORNER: I just want to highlight two aspects is all.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm leaving it to you whether you prefer 25 minutes

4 from now or whether you prefer at the end of --

5 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour why don't we wait until the end

6 of the day if Your Honour gives me five minutes then because in fact that

7 may assist in what I want to say.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So at the end of the day roughly before --

9 MS. KORNER: About 25 to 2.00. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. So we'll have a 25-minute

11 break starting from now. Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies to -- wait for the accused first. My

15 apologies to everyone for going beyond the 25-minute break, but, as I told

16 you before, I had a meeting with the Registrar, which was pretty urgent,

17 and it just lasted a few minutes more than I had hoped it would last.

18 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Mandic, I think we had gotten through the multiparty

21 elections. I want to ask you: What political party were you a member of

22 at the time of these multiparty elections?

23 A. I would like to tell to the Honourable Chamber, before I answer

24 this question: I don't understand English that well, but it seems to me

25 that I made a mistake when giving one of my previous answers regarding the

1 Executive Board of Celinac municipality. I worked there from 1983 to

2 1984. That was under the old government. And then I took the new office

3 on the 15th of January, 1991, not 1992. So that was my mistake. So can I

4 please be corrected.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That goes on record. Thank you.

6 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. I'd ask you, then, the question: During the multiparty elections,

9 what political party were you a member of?

10 A. Since I was the secretary of the municipal electoral committee,

11 during the preparations and during the multiparty elections, I was not a

12 member of any of the parties. After the multiparty elections, I did not

13 join any political party, and to this very day I have not belonged to any

14 political party.

15 Q. So you've never been a member, for instance, of the SDS?

16 A. No. I was never an SDS member, nor will I ever be an SDS member.

17 Q. Did that have any effect upon your positions after the

18 multiparty -- well, let me ask you this question first: In the multiparty

19 elections, who won the majority of the seats in the Celinac Assembly? What

20 party?

21 A. At the first multiparty elections in Celinac, the Serbian

22 Democratic Party won the majority of votes, about 85 per cent. All the

23 other parties shared about 20 per cent of votes between themselves.

24 Q. And as a result of the victory of the SDS in that election, was

25 your position affected in any way?

1 A. Let me put it this way: The position of all those people,

2 regardless of their profession, regardless of their education, that is,

3 all of the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, depended on the multiparty

4 elections. All the parties in power, the HDZ, the SDA, the SDS, appointed

5 nobody else but members of their respective parties. This obviously

6 reflected on the first composition of the Executive Board in Celinac.

7 When people were appointed to their offices, at the very beginning, I was

8 not given any office, and the same applied to everybody else who didn't

9 belong to that particular party.

10 Q. So there was a period of time, at least, when you did not have a

11 position because you were not a member of the SDS?

12 A. That was the only reason.

13 Q. I want you to look at a couple of documents now, just to establish

14 a couple of things. It's DB151 and DB153, please.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just mention. These are in

16 fact -- obviously I think Mr. Ackerman wants to put them in, but they are

17 already in the Celinac binder, these documents, as Prosecution exhibits,

18 if Your Honour needs to cross-reference them, or anyone else.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you for that information. Do we have

20 the cross-reference, Ms. --

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no. I only saw these now. They were

22 given to Ms. Sutherland last night and I recognised them as being

23 documents that were already in as Prosecution exhibits. I can check over

24 the next break what the numbers are.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

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1 MR. ACKERMAN: Actually, they were given to Ms. Sutherland

2 yesterday morning, not last night.

3 Your Honour, while that comes to mind, I do -- I would -- there's

4 something I would like to place on the record. Yesterday morning -- the

5 day before yesterday, when we met with the witness for the first time, he

6 had brought a -- I think 11 documents with him that, of course, were in

7 B/C/S and not translated. We wanted to use them, and we gave them to CLSS

8 yesterday morning, with some hope that they might be able to translate

9 them in time for us to use them. And they were able to do all of those

10 documents and get them into my hands by 5.30 last night, and I just want

11 to commend publicly, on the record, CLSS for the amazing work that they

12 did to get that done for us and to assist the Defence and this

13 Trial Chamber. They really deserve a lot of credit for that. It was an

14 extraordinary effort that they made.

15 And then just for the record, I then sent them, shortly after I

16 got them to the Prosecutor, by e-mail, so they were delivered to the

17 Prosecution last night.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman, for that commendation,

19 which I share with you. The work of that section of the Tribunal, as well

20 as of the interpreters, is so heavy, and I think we do well to show our

21 appreciation every now and then the efforts that they make to keep the

22 works of this Tribunal going in an efficient manner. Thank you.

23 Yes.

24 MR. ACKERMAN:

25 Q. All right. So the first document that you have, then, could you

1 just, very briefly, tell the Chamber, this DB151, what this document

2 represents. What is it?

3 A. This document is a decision on the appointment of the president of

4 the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of Celinac, and it says that

5 the Municipal Assembly, on the 19th of December, 1990, appointed Radoslav

6 Brdjanin as president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of

7 Celinac.

8 The second document, DB151B, that is, DB153, it says that the

9 Crisis Staff of Celinac municipality, at its session held on the 12th of

10 June, dismisses Radoslav Brdjanin from the position of the president of

11 the Executive Board. So Radoslav Brdjanin is relieved by this decision,

12 and this decision will be ratified by the Assembly of the Celinac

13 municipality at its first coming session.

14 Q. All right. To your knowledge, then, did Mr. Brdjanin serve as

15 president of the Executive Board in Celinac between the dates of 19

16 December 1990 and 12 June 1992? In other words, did he serve continuously

17 in that position between those two dates, as far as you know?

18 A. I'm very familiar with the fact that Mr. Brdjanin did hold this

19 position from the date of his appointment to the date of his release. He

20 held regular sessions at -- I participated in all those sessions as the

21 technical secretary of the municipality. I didn't take the minutes, but I

22 did make my own notes, together with the president, I prepared the

23 sessions of the Executive Board, and during that period of time, the

24 Executive Board worked in its full composition, and I must say that it

25 worked very correctly.

1 Q. How was it, being a non-member of the SDS, that you were able to

2 secure this position of secretary, then, with the Executive Board?

3 A. Let me tell you how this happened. The Executive Board, at its

4 very beginning, was composed mostly of the members of the

5 Serbian Democratic Party, although I must say before this Trial Chamber

6 that Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin did not agree with that. He insisted on the

7 Executive Board to consist of experts in their respective fields,

8 regardless of their party affiliation, regardless of their religious

9 affiliation or ethnical background. And very soon after that, probably

10 against a lot of opposition in his party, he managed to succeed in

11 changing the composition of the Executive Board so that from then on,

12 members of the Executive Board were also people who were not members

13 [Realtime transcript read in error "in the members"] of the SDS.

14 I was a technical secretary. I did not vote. I did not make any

15 decisions. However, other members who participated in the very important

16 work of the Executive Board were people who were never members of the SDS,

17 before that or after that. For example, Nenad Joldzic was the secretary

18 for economy and the Vice-President for the Executive Board and he was

19 appointed on the insistence of Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin. Mr. Vlado Vrhovac

20 was the director of the revenue administration. Then Nemanja Bilanovic,

21 who was also a lawyer and who was born in a mixed marriage, he was a

22 misdemeanour judge in that term of office. His position was very

23 important. Later on, he became a member of the Executive Board, as the

24 director of cadastral services.

25 Very soon after that, people were appointed to some professional

1 duties who, before the change of power, were not assigned to any duties.

2 One of them was Vitomir Djuric, another one was Borislav Gavric. The

3 point that I'm making here is that very soon the Executive Board was led

4 by the Executive Board -- the Executive Board was led by Mr. Brdjanin,

5 although its members were not all of them members of the party in power.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in the transcript, page 40, line 13,

7 it says: "Members of the Executive Board were also people who were in the

8 members of the SDS." What the members witness said was who were not

9 members of the SDS.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you okay with that, Ms. Sutherland or

11 Ms. Korner?

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's my recollection too. All right. So

14 that goes on record. Thank you.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. Could you tell the Chamber when you first met Mr. Brdjanin?

17 A. I first met Mr. Brdjanin when we were still very young. The first

18 time I got to know him was in primary school. He's three years older than

19 me, and he was in the fourth grade while I was in the first grade. Then I

20 changed schools because in that place, the school went up to the fourth

21 grade only. So I went to school in Kotor Varos, whereas Mr. Brdjanin

22 continued his education in Celinac. Later on, I continued my education in

23 Zagreb, and Mr. Brdjanin went to Banja Luka and Novi Sad. We went to

24 university in different places, so that we didn't see each other for a

25 long time. It was only in the '80s when I saw him again, when

1 Mr. Brdjanin became the director of a large construction company in

2 Celinac, and by that time I had already worked in the Municipal Assembly

3 for quite a number of years.

4 Q. You worked with Mr. Brdjanin when you were secretary of the

5 Executive Board, and as the Chamber will learn, later, as he became a

6 minister. The question I want to ask you was: Did you at any time become

7 close friends with Mr. Brdjanin? When I say "close friends," I mean

8 social friends who would visit each other's homes and things of that

9 nature.

10 A. I'll be very honest. Although we lived in a very small place,

11 that is to say, Mr. Brdjanin lived in Banja Luka and worked in Celinac,

12 and I myself lived in Celinac - I was never close friends with him. We

13 only had a professional relationship. That is only as of lately. I was

14 never in his house, I was never in his apartment in Banja Luka, nor was he

15 ever in my house. And since none of us patroned bars and pubs, we never

16 actually met in any of those either. So to cut this long story short, we

17 met in the Executive Board and our relationship was strictly professional.

18 Q. During that period of time immediately following the multiparty

19 elections, and specifically, beginning 19 December 1990 through 12 June

20 1992, when Mr. Brdjanin served as president of the Executive Board, what

21 was the approximate percentage of non-Serb inhabitants of the Celinac

22 municipality, if you know?

23 A. The last census was carried out in 1990. According to that

24 census, about 95 per cent of the population of Celinac were Serbs. Only 5

25 per cent, or thereabouts, were Muslim, Bosniaks, or others.

1 Q. In the municipality of Celinac during this same period of time

2 that we're talking about, 19 December 1990 to 12 June 1992, were there

3 non-Serb persons employed in the municipality?

4 A. There were non-Serbs in the municipality. Before the multiparty

5 elections, as well as after the multiparty elections. I know it very well

6 because I gave a number of them their jobs. Because up to the first

7 multiparty elections, I had worked in the municipality for some 17 years.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman, because I want to have

9 this clear in my mind. Could I ask Ms. Gustin to help me here. There is

10 a document which gives us the figure of the 1990 census. Because I'm sure

11 that we either have a mistake in the interpretation. Because he says that

12 the last census was carried out in 1990 and then 95 per cent of the

13 population of Celinac was Serbs. Is that correct? Because I think it was

14 much more mixed than that.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Exhibit P1150 is the 1991 census, Your Honour. I

16 thought it was P60. That's what I said a moment ago.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: P60. If we can have a look at P60, please.

18 Sorry, Mr. Ackerman, about this, but I think ... So it seems that

19 in the 1991, 1991, there doesn't seem to have been a census in 1990, in

20 any case. But in 1991, the percentage of Croats --

21 THE WITNESS: 1991, yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That the percentage of Croats was significant, 0.4.

23 The percentage of Muslims was 7.7. The percentage of Serbs was 88.5. And

24 then Yugoslavs and others, we have 2 per cent and 1.4 per cent. So it's a

25 little bit different from the 95 that you mentioned. Anyway, just for the

1 record, were you referring to some other more recent census? Is it a

2 census that was held after the war?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I think that the first

4 census after the war -- I can comment on that, if you allow me.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. The important thing is that we have

6 clarified this, because I was aware that we had never heard of a census in

7 1990, to start with. And I wanted to clear this up so that at least, you

8 know -- so it's not important. Let's go ahead. If you need to say

9 anything about it, please go ahead.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to make myself clear.

11 You must know that I have no statistical records in front of me. I'm just

12 speaking from my memory. I know that we always had 5 per cent of Muslim

13 population, and a part of the Serb population declared themselves as

14 Yugoslavs, which reduced the percentage of declared Serbs. But the figure

15 that sticks in my mind is around 95 per cent of Serbs.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. The question I want to ask you now is: Did the number of

19 non-Serbs working in the municipality come anywhere near matching the

20 census figures, whatever those are? Was it a 5 to 7 per cent of non-Serbs

21 who worked in the municipality?

22 A. First of all, we had very solid and stable legislation and

23 regulations on employment, which did not insist on reflecting the ethnic

24 composition in employment. But since I had worked there for a long time,

25 I am aware that we had 6 to 7 employees of other ethnicities out of the

1 total of 90, or around 90.

2 Q. Over the years - and I'm mostly interested in 1991, 1992, when you

3 were working with Mr. Brdjanin - during that period of time, did you have

4 an opportunity to observe or learn what his attitude was toward non-Serb

5 people? For instance, did he make efforts to get the non-Serb people

6 working for the Celinac municipality dismissed, or anything like that?

7 A. I must say to the Honourable Trial Chamber that with the

8 transition of government and the takeover of duties in the municipality by

9 Mr. Brdjanin, none of the employees, Serb or otherwise, were dismissed.

10 Therefore, throughout 1990, all the employees continued in their jobs, as

11 before the multiparty elections. For instance, there are very important

12 positions that were manned by Muslims. When the war began in 1991, the

13 mobilisation of soldiers into the Army of Republika Srpska was handled in

14 the military department by a man who was a Muslim. In the staff of

15 National Defence, a very important position was held by a Muslim. Head of

16 accounting was also a Muslim, that is, a Bosniak. Our misdemeanour judge

17 came from a mixed marriage. The secretary of Mr. Brdjanin was a Croat

18 lady or, more precisely, a Polish woman of Roman Catholic faith. Mr.

19 Brdjanin's driver was a Muslim. I will not enumerate any more, but from

20 the head of accounting to the secretary in the town hall, many non-Serbs

21 continued to work throughout the war in these positions, and even

22 afterwards.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, line -- page 45, line 10, the witness

24 said 1991, instead of 1990.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you okay with that, Ms. Sutherland?

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't recall. The witness then

2 goes on in the next sentence: When the war began in 1991.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's the next sentence, however. We have on

4 record here that you said: Therefore, throughout 1990, all the employees

5 continued in their jobs, as before the multiparty elections.

6 Did you mean -- did you say 1990, throughout 1990, or throughout

7 1991?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Throughout 1991.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Starting with the multiparty

11 elections.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thought so. All right, would you --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. In your position as secretary to the Executive Board in Celinac,

18 what were your duties? What kind of things did you do?

19 A. I think it is widely known what the technical secretary of a

20 body --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Ackerman, if you are interested in

22 one or more functions rather than all the others, you are free to put a

23 very direct question to the witness. And because otherwise we will

24 probably hear a whole description of functions.

25 MR. ACKERMAN:

1 Q. Let me then do some background before I then ask you the question

2 the Judge suggests. After you left the Celinac Executive Board, just very

3 briefly tell us what positions you have held since your position with the

4 Executive Board in Celinac. What other positions have you held and what

5 are you doing now?

6 A. I occupy the position of the secretary of the Executive Board

7 until November 1992. I was then appointed assistant minister for legal

8 and economic affairs in the ministry for construction of Republika Srpska.

9 This position I continue to occupy today. In those 12 years that I have

10 worked in the government of Republika Srpska, the most years, or the most

11 terms of office, or the most governments, I was assistant minister.

12 During Dodik's term, I was assistant minister, and in the new composition

13 of the Assembly, I am assistant for legal and administrative affairs.

14 Q. All right. When we go -- we go back now, then, to the Celinac

15 Executive Board. When that board arrived at various decisions and

16 conclusions, was it your job to prepare those and issue them?

17 A. Sometimes, but mostly not. The Executive Board operates in the

18 following way. They get ready-made, prepared materials from proposing

19 agencies, from the municipality, with the ready-made proposal for a

20 conclusion or a decision. If the Executive Board accepts that draft or

21 proposal without any changes, the president signs it and the technical

22 service of the Executive Board delivers their decision to receiving

23 agencies. If some changes are made, then the president gets it for

24 signature, and only then does the technical service pass it on to the

25 so-called users.

1 Q. One of the things that we have seen through this trial is that

2 documents coming from various boards, assemblies, staffs, have different

3 names. Some of them are called conclusions, some of them are called

4 decisions. In the course of your legal training and your experience

5 dealing with these kinds of documents, do you know the difference between,

6 for instance, a conclusion and a decision?

7 A. I know that very well. The Executive Board most of the time

8 adopted conclusions. Sometimes decisions and determinations. All of them

9 are enactments, legally speaking. The Executive Board rarely made

10 decisions, because in the hierarchy of legal enactments, it is a higher

11 act, a higher enactment. Therefore, the Executive Board made conclusions

12 based on background materials that were considered by the Executive Board.

13 So let me repeat. In most of the cases, in the majority of cases, the

14 Executive Board adopted the conclusions, whose nature was rather

15 organisational and operational, or operative, than legal.

16 Q. Is a conclusion, then, is not necessarily a binding document of

17 any kind, but more, say, advisory? Is that what you're saying?

18 A. Well, most of the time those are advisory conclusions, invitations

19 to cooperation, et cetera.

20 Q. Who decides whether a document is going to be called a decision or

21 a conclusion? Who makes that decision?

22 A. That decision is made by the proposing agency, in compliance with

23 the law. For instance, if a municipal agency proposes an expropriation of

24 land to be effected, then they propose a document called a determination,

25 and it cannot be otherwise. It is established practice, as a matter of

1 law. If something is to be adopted, then the proposing agency suggests

2 that it be made in the form of a conclusion. And if something has really

3 to be decided, and that was rare, then it was to be a decision.

4 Q. All right. We were talking a few moments ago about Mr. Brdjanin's

5 attitude toward non-Serb people in the Celinac municipality. I want to

6 show you a document. It is P1998, that was issued by the War Presidency

7 in Celinac after Mr. Brdjanin had left. And I want to ask you if you're

8 familiar with this document, and what, if anything, you know about it.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just one moment. Can we go into private

10 session for a moment?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,

12 please.

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1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the question is?

3 MR. ACKERMAN:

4 Q. Are you familiar with this document, and what do you have to tell

5 us about it, if anything?

6 A. In the statement I gave previously, in my earlier testimony, in

7 fact, I said I worked as an expert in the Executive Board. The Executive

8 Board is in no way related to the War Presidency. I never laid eyes on

9 this decision before, nor have I ever heard about it, although it was

10 talked about after the war. To be precise, in some recent contacts I had,

11 I learned that a decision of this sort existed. However, I never worked

12 in the War Presidency, and I have absolutely no information about their

13 dealings, so I cannot comment on this.

14 Q. You had indicated that following the multiparty elections, when

15 Mr. Brdjanin wanted to staff the Executive Board with non-SDS members, I

16 think the language you used was that you understood he had some difficulty

17 about that, or some problems with the SDS about that. Is that true? Do

18 you know that he had difficulties when he tried to staff the Executive

19 Board with non-SDS people?

20 A. Well, let me tell you. But I have to say right away that I have

21 no data in front of me, but I speak from my own knowledge. It is the only

22 municipality in all of Bosnia and Herzegovina where there was one ruling

23 party, and the Executive Board still included non-members of that ruling

24 party. I do not know whether Mr. Brdjanin had any problems because of

25 this within his party, but I hold the opinion - and that opinion is based

1 on what I occasionally heard - that he was sometimes reprimanded for the

2 fact that he surrounded himself with people who do not belong to the

3 party, being president of the Executive Board.

4 Q. Now, this decision we were just looking at from the

5 War Presidency, do you know, first of all, if this was a decision made by

6 persons who were members of the SDS party; and second, would you say that

7 Mr. Brdjanin would have agreed with a decision like this?

8 A. I don't know who was on the War Presidency. I don't know whether

9 all the members were also members of the Serbian Democratic Party. I

10 believe that some non-members of SDS were on the Presidency as well. But

11 from Article 2, which I'm looking at right now, for the first time, I must

12 say, I think that if we asked Mr. Brdjanin -- in fact, if he had had a

13 say, he would never have accepted this, because some of these people are

14 friends of Mr. Brdjanin, and his neighbours. Most of them were employed

15 in his enterprise. And if it had been his decision, he would not have

16 phrased it this way.

17 Q. Did you ever hear of the Sugic brothers?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. What did you hear about what they were doing in the Celinac

20 municipality?

21 A. Well, I have to tell you frankly that there are many things that

22 passed me by, because there was a war going on. I didn't like it. I

23 didn't want it. I didn't ask for it. And I tried to keep away from it as

24 much as I could. However, certain things you couldn't help hearing. So I

25 heard that, allegedly, the Sugic brothers, after the killing of one of

1 them, set an ambush and killed some people. I don't know whether it was

2 really the Sugic brothers who did it. I have no way of knowing. What I

3 know is that Mr. Brdjanin, and some other people in positions of

4 responsibility, condemned this act. And Mr. Brdjanin condemned it

5 particularly strongly. And as far as I know, these brothers were then

6 arrested, kept in detention, and later released, only to be detained

7 again. And for all I know, they found themselves in detention again.

8 After the war they were arrested, and I think they are still in prison

9 today. I think they had stood trial at some point.

10 Q. Let me ask you if you recall an incident in Celinac, I think

11 perhaps in August of 1992, involving a large number of Muslim citizens

12 being placed on buses. Do you recall anything about that?

13 A. That day is very clearly etched in my memory. It was by far the

14 most difficult day of my life, and for that reason I kindly ask this

15 Honourable Court to let me speak about this event. Because it must have

16 been planned, but, thank heaven, it ended well. I believe it happened in

17 the beginning of August. I worked in the municipality at that time, and

18 all of us who were at work that day had occasion to see that that day, in

19 the morning, several buses filled with people arrived outside the town

20 hall. I don't know how many buses exactly there were, because I could see

21 only two or three of them from my window.

22 People were talking and saying that those people on the buses were

23 those who had expressed their wish to go somewhere, to Travnik, for

24 instance, and that transport had been organised for them. In the

25 meantime, these people were filing into the buses, and then out of them,

1 until eventually news travelled through our building like a flash, that

2 the building of the municipality is surrounded, under blockade, and that

3 no one is allowed to leave.

4 I personally, and everyone around me, could see that downstairs,

5 at the intersection, and on the bridge, there were people in uniforms,

6 soldiers, very tall men in black clothing, black hats, wearing automatic

7 weapons, intercepting people, stopping them, abusing them. And very soon,

8 people stopped leaving their homes. All of this continued throughout the

9 day.

10 Sometime around 5.00 p.m., these soldiers who had arrived from

11 outside of our locality, because none of the locals that I spoke to knew

12 them. So after 5.00 p.m., these people dispersed, because our regular

13 police, and the military police, which was also referred as the corps

14 police from Banja Luka, came, dispersed this gang, ran them out of town.

15 And then around 6.00 p.m., I noticed that the buses I had seen earlier

16 were moved to the school building. The people were given food and drink,

17 and military security was provided. They stayed there for two or three

18 days, until the situation calmed down, and the people returned to their

19 homes.

20 I want to make a point of mentioning that the next day, when I

21 came to work --

22 Q. Let me interrupt you just a minute. Who were the people that were

23 on the buses? Who were they?

24 A. The people on the buses were all Muslims. A lot of them I knew

25 personally, because they were our neighbours, ordinary people, most of

1 them correct people. And that's what happened.

2 Q. And the people in the black uniforms, did you ever find out who

3 they were?

4 A. No. I couldn't really see them too well. I couldn't recognise

5 them. Later on we all heard that those were -- some people who came from

6 outside. They were not members of the Army of Republika Srpska. They

7 were not members of a renegade government. Most people assumed - and I

8 suppose they were correct - that those people came from somewhere outside.

9 Q. Did Mr. Brdjanin have anything to do with that incident? Did he

10 play any role in it at all?

11 A. On that day when we were being held captives in the municipal

12 building, Mr. Brdjanin was not in Celinac. Later on I heard - that was on

13 the following day - that Mr. Brdjanin, as a representative of the People's

14 Assembly of Republika Srpska, used his authority as a representative and

15 as a humanitarian, he used his authority in favour of the Muslim

16 population of Celinac municipality and asked the police to intervene on

17 their behalf and disperse this unwelcome gang, and for these Muslims to be

18 placed somewhere safe. It is very important to say at this point that in

19 the entire area of Celinac municipality, news spread at the time that

20 these unknown persons had set up mortar nests between Celinac and

21 Banja Luka, and if that convoy had set on its way, I believe that the

22 worst thing would have happened to them. All the citizens of Celinac know

23 that the lives of the people on those buses were saved by Mr. Brdjanin,

24 who prevented a tragedy because he respected his fellow citizens of

25 Celinac.

1 Q. When you say there was this roadblock set up, was that the same

2 people in the black uniforms and you believe that they intended to

3 massacre these people? Is that what you're saying to this Chamber?

4 A. This is what I wanted to say, but because all those who saw the

5 incident told the same story, and the story spread much more on the

6 following day. On that day, there was very little said, because everybody

7 feared everybody else, and nobody knew exactly what was going on.

8 Q. The people, then, that were placed in the school, and I think you

9 said that there were guards at the school then, were they being held

10 prisoner there or were they being protected there? Which?

11 A. I don't know, because I wasn't there. I was at home. After this

12 unpleasant incident, when I could leave the building, they were in the

13 school. They were absolutely free and protected by the government organs

14 and the regular police. And within the next two or three days, they could

15 move freely about. They would also come to the town hall. I could give

16 you the names of the people who came to see me. Some of them were my

17 friends and acquaintances.

18 Q. During this period of time that Mr. Brdjanin was president of the

19 Executive Board in Celinac, was Celinac a safe place for non-Muslim people

20 to live -- or non-Serb people to live?

21 A. I believe that during that period of time, in Celinac, as a town

22 neighbourhood, it was safe. And this is where certain people who had come

23 from elsewhere found shelter. Some of them came from Kotor Varos, others

24 came from the neighbouring villages belonging to the Celinac municipality,

25 where there had been incidents. Celinac, as such, was a safe nucleus

1 which stayed that way until the very end of the war, without any major

2 incidents.

3 Q. Okay. We're going to change subjects now. I want you to look now

4 at a document, P323. And mostly I'm interested in decision number 737.

5 This is a document which appoints Mr. Brdjanin minister of the

6 Republika Srpska Ministry of Construction, Spatial Planning, and

7 Transport; correct?

8 A. That's correct. This decision was still being kept at the

9 ministry where I still work, and this is the decision on the appointment

10 of the first minister of construction, spatial planning, and transport.

11 Mr. Brdjanin was appointed to this office on the 15th of September, 1992,

12 and he remained in that position, as far as I can remember, until the 8th

13 of March, 1995, when he was relieved of his duties at his own request.

14 Q. You've maybe almost, at least, answered the next question I wanted

15 to ask you. This ministry had not existed prior to Mr. Brdjanin's

16 appointment; is that what you told us?

17 A. No, I don't think it existed. It was established by the

18 government of Republika Srpska, and then people were appointed to various

19 positions. So I believe that it didn't exist before.

20 Q. And was this ministry located in Pale, along with the rest of the

21 Republika Srpska government, or did it have a different location?

22 A. No. This ministry was in Banja Luka, at the same location where

23 it still exists today. Owing to Mr. Brdjanin, who deserves credit for

24 that. And this is the only ministry that was not in Pale, but rather had

25 its seat in Banja Luka. And as people like to say, it is the first step

1 towards moving the government and all the other ministers to Banja Luka

2 after that.

3 Q. Now, you said that this was the beginning of this ministry, that

4 it had not existed prior to this date, and that -- when did you -- my

5 first question, then, is: When did you become part of this ministry?

6 When were you employed in this ministry?

7 A. I became assistant for legal and economic affairs, and I still

8 hold the same position. I first joined on 19 November 1992, and that was

9 when all the other assistants were appointed in the ministry and when the

10 assistant -- deputy minister was appointed. We were all appointed either

11 on the same day or at least within the space of one month.

12 Q. And the people who were appointed to that ministry, did Mr.

13 Brdjanin choose SDS members other -- were you the only non-SDS member or

14 were other people also non-SDS?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, let's see whether at the time he was

16 still a non-SDS member.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: He's already testified that he never was a member

18 of SDS.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You were still a non-member of the SDS at the time;

20 no?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me, sir? No, never.

22 Not then, not after that, not ever.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

24 MR. ACKERMAN:

25 Q. The other people who were appointed to positions in that ministry

1 by Mr. Brdjanin, were they all SDS members, or not?

2 A. Let me tell you, as I've already told you: The way Mr. Brdjanin

3 behaved in Celinac when he appointed members to the Executive Board who

4 were non-members of the SDS, he continued behaving the same way, and he

5 formed his inner team, choosing five of his assistants, his deputy, and

6 the chief state inspector. All these people who were chosen, none of them

7 belonged to the SDS. No other cabinet minister of Republika Srpska did

8 that. And I'm almost sure that this was not done either by the government

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the former Yugoslavia. Mr. Brdjanin appointed

10 Borko Djuric as his deputy. He was also not an SDS member. He

11 appointed me, Boro Mandic. He appointed Miladin Gacanovic and Predrag

12 Milosevic. None of us were members of the SDS. He also appointed Predrag

13 Marjanovic, as the main spatial planning inspector. He also was not a

14 member of the SDS. He had just one goal in mind: To appoint people from

15 the profession. Because he believed in professionalism. And this proved

16 to be correct. All of us who were appointed by Mr. Brdjanin continued to

17 hold similar, same, or even higher positions in the government. So he

18 made a good choice, and we met the requirements of every subsequent

19 government. To this very day, I'm still an assistant in the Ministry of

20 Construction, and my minister is a Bosniak, a member of the SDA.

21 Owing to a good selection made by Mr. Brdjanin during his first

22 term of office and a good evaluation of all the other ministers, the

23 Ministry of Construction is one of the best-organised and one of the most

24 efficient ministries in the government of Republika Srpska. A little

25 while ago I spoke at an international conference about the ministry of

1 construction of Republika Srpska, and I said that by the level of our

2 professional qualifications, we are the best in the world. We have four

3 or five people who hold Ph.D.s. We have two or three with just secondary

4 degree. All the rest of us have either one or two full bachelor's

5 degrees.

6 Q. Are there other people still with the ministry that were appointed

7 by Mr. Brdjanin? Are you the only one, or are there others that are still

8 there?

9 A. No. No. In the ministry, Mr. Miladin Gacanovic, who is an

10 engineer and who is an assistant minister for residential affairs, is

11 still there. One gentleman who used to be an assistant now holds a tenure

12 at the university. The former deputy is now the director of the largest

13 construction company in Republika Srpska. And Mr. Predrag Marjanovic is

14 now retired.

15 Q. You've told us a great deal now about -- and given us some

16 examples of Mr. Brdjanin attitude against -- with regard to persons who

17 were not members of SDS. I want you to look at a document, P254.

18 While they're finding the document, just keep in mind what you've

19 told us about Mr. Brdjanin's attitude also toward non-Serb persons.

20 A. When it came to employment and recruiting, all the others who were

21 in high positions in the ministry - lawyer, engineers, accountants -

22 Mr. Brdjanin insisted and looked for those who showed professional

23 qualities. So that people who were employed, unlike in other areas, were

24 women whose husbands were of different ethnic backgrounds, whereas such

25 cases would be punished in other areas.

1 Q. All right. Look at this document. It's a document issued by the

2 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina on 22 June 1992, while

3 Brdjanin was president of that crisis staff. In the context of what

4 you've been telling the Chamber, how can you explain this document? It

5 seems to say the opposite.

6 A. I have never seen this document, and I was never close to any

7 crisis staffs, either to the Crisis Staff of Krajina or the Crisis Staff

8 of Celinac. And what it says here is absolutely opposite to what was

9 happening in the Executive Board of Celinac municipality and in the

10 ministry. Whenever Mr. Brdjanin and documentation proves that, and also

11 there are people who can testify to that, because they still work there or

12 are around - whenever Mr. Brdjanin had an opportunity to decide on these

13 matters, like he did in the ministry and in the Executive Board, then he

14 would decide something completely different than transpires from this

15 decision. I don't want to, and I simply can't, interpret this very

16 illegible piece of writing. However, as a lawyer by profession, I know

17 that sometimes a chairperson will sign a decision which is a product of a

18 joint work. If this was issued by the Crisis Staff of the so-called AR

19 Krajina, then I suppose this was the product of a joint work and of the

20 voting on this decision. And in a number of cases, we have seen these

21 things happening, in our respective workplaces, when we had to sign

22 similar decisions. This decision never had its implications, never had

23 any bearing on the ministry where Mr. Brdjanin worked or on the Executive

24 Board of Celinac municipality.

25 Whether this decision was implemented elsewhere, I wouldn't be

1 able to tell you. I only repeat: I have never had any contacts with any

2 crisis staffs.

3 Q. If we go back now to the ministry where Mr. Brdjanin appointed all

4 of these people that were not members of the SDS. Do you know if he had

5 any -- that if he was criticised in any way by the authorities in Pale for

6 not employing SDS members in his ministry? Do you know if he had any

7 difficulty about that?

8 A. I really don't know. I didn't have frequent contacts with

9 Minister Brdjanin. However, my personal opinion is that he must have been

10 criticised. It only makes sense, in a multiparty system. I believe that

11 Mr. Brdjanin was able to fight back and to do what he did, and I think

12 that he did right.

13 Q. This ministry for construction and so forth, among its

14 responsibilities, was one of those housing?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you told us that the ministry was formed in September, that

17 you and most of the staff came on board in November. When was it the

18 ministry actually was able to get completely organised and start

19 functioning and performing its duties and tasks?

20 A. I know it very well. As an assistant minister, I was in charge of

21 that organisation, and we started working on the 15th of March, 1993, and

22 that was when all of the other positions were filled.

23 Q. What kind of matters were within the ministry's competence with

24 regard to housing? What kind of things did the ministry do with regard to

25 housing?

1 A. The ministry dealt with complaints which came from appellants who

2 appealed against the first-instance decisions made by municipal organs.

3 The ministry mostly decided on the exchange of property or the exchange of

4 tenants' rights between the holders of those rights. From the end of 1993

5 onwards, it also dealt with the rationalisation of residential space.

6 According to the former law which was passed a long time ago in the former

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, in 1984, I think it was, every holder of tenants'

8 rights had the right to exchange his rights with another holder of

9 tenants' rights in the territory of the entire former Yugoslavia. This

10 law was still in effect in 1993 and some of its provisions are still in

11 effect.

12 For example, if somebody, for example, a Croat or a Muslim, wanted

13 to exchange their flat with a Serb from Zagreb or from Belgrade, they had

14 to first ask for the consent of the owner of that apartment. That would

15 usually be a company or an enterprise. In most of these cases, the

16 company didn't agree to give their consent. Then the person could appeal

17 with the municipality, and then the municipality acted instead of that

18 company and applied the law and allowed for the apartments to be

19 exchanged.

20 In most cases, municipalities did not allow this to take place,

21 because they probably wanted to give the abandoned flats to the refugees

22 who arrived from Croatia and from the Federation of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina. I remember very well - and there are a number of decisions

24 in our ministry testifying to that - when we started working on the 15th

25 of March, 1993, and when we started dealing with those appeals, Minister

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1 Brdjanin gathered all the responsible persons around himself and told

2 them: I demand from you to respect the law, to observe the law. This is

3 a state with the rule of law. Everybody has the right to exercise their

4 rights, in keeping with the law.

5 Then our services started to approve exchange of property to all

6 those who were entitled to have their property exchanged. For example, a

7 Croat who wanted to exchange his apartment would come to the ministry, he

8 would pack his things, he would go to Croatia, he would enter another

9 apartment there and continue living freely until the end of the war. This

10 was a very positive development, and this was recognised by the High

11 Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina, who after the war passed a law

12 according to which, if somebody regretted their previous decisions, they

13 could go back to their former apartment. And there are such cases. For

14 example, if people subsequently were not satisfied with the decision they

15 made, they could restore their tenancy right in Republika Srpska and

16 return to their former apartment. But most of the decisions made at that

17 time are valid to this very day.

18 Can I please continue?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We need to have a break here for 25 minutes.

20 Thank you.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, page 63, line 24 of the transcript

25 says: A number of decisions. And I'm told what the witness said was:

1 "There are hundreds of decisions in our ministry." So --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You want "a hundred" instead of "a number"?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: What he said was: "There are hundreds of

4 decision," instead of "a number."

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you agree to that, sir? I think we had

6 better read out to him.

7 Sir, I'm going to read from the transcript that I have right here

8 in front of me, and then you've heard what Mr. Ackerman said, and you tell

9 me whether you want -- what you want to have on record. "In most cases

10 municipalities did not allow this to take place because they probably

11 wanted to give the abandoned flats to the refugees who arrived from

12 Croatia and from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I remember

13 very well, and there are a number of decisions --" This is where

14 Mr. Ackerman said you said there are hundreds of decisions. "There are

15 number of decisions and our ministry testifying to that when we started

16 working on the 15th of March, 1993 and when we started dealing with those

17 appeals, Minister Brdjanin," et cetera. Did you see

18 there were a number of such decisions or hundreds of such decisions?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can say with absolute

20 certainty that there are hundreds, certainly more than 100, and probably

21 hundreds, but not decisions; determinations. The ministry makes

22 determinations.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

24 Q. In the process of making those determinations, did Mr. Brdjanin

25 make distinction between members of different ethnic groups? Did he treat

1 members of different ethnic groups differently?

2 A. No. On the contrary; every decision that had to do with a swap of

3 apartments or the rationalisation of housing space had two opposing

4 parties involved. One of the parties was always a non-Serb. Mr. Brdjanin

5 insisted that we go by the book, that is, by the law, and the law required

6 us to approve the exchange of apartments or rationalisation of housing

7 space, and we did that. It was always signed by Mr. Brdjanin or one of

8 his deputies, and all of these determinations were confirmed by the

9 Supreme Court.

10 In the event that the party who was not satisfied, instituted

11 proceedings, or started a lawsuit.

12 Q. All right. I want you to look at some documents. I'm going to

13 ask the Registrar to give you a series of documents, DB154 through DB159,

14 and DB166 through DB169. You can have all those at once and we'll just go

15 through them as quickly as we can.

16 Sir, find DB154, which is the first one I want you to look at.

17 A. Here in front of us we see a determination dated the 22nd of

18 March, 1993. That is only seven days after we started working. This is

19 an example of precisely what I was trying to explain. A person of Croat

20 ethnicity, Viktor Skarija, if I need to mention it, asked the owner of the

21 apartment for approval, which was refused, and then from the relevant

22 agency in the municipality, which was also refused, for exchanging an

23 apartment with another person residing in Sisak. So the ministry made

24 this determination, in keeping with the law.

25 Q. And what was the determination of the ministry?

1 A. The determination of the ministry reads that the appeal is denied,

2 and the appeal was made by the owner of the apartment, the owner being

3 Cajevic [phoen] company. I remember this enactment very well. The owner

4 of the apartment appealed against the ministry to the Supreme Court, and

5 the Supreme Court denied his appeal, which means that the decision

6 initially made by the ministry was lawful.

7 Q. So the ministry basically said that the exchange must be allowed?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Okay. Look at DB155.

10 A. Yes. This is another example of what I just said. Roda Cajevic,

11 owner of this apartment, unhappy with our decision, that is, the decision

12 of the ministry, appeals against our ministry to the Supreme Court,

13 starting proceedings, and the Supreme Court rejects this appeal as

14 ungrounded in law, which means that the ministry had done its job, in

15 keeping with the law.

16 Q. So the decision of the ministry to approve the exchange was upheld

17 by the Supreme Court, then?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Look at 156 now and tell the Chamber what that is.

20 A. This is another example of the same situation that we discussed

21 before. Andrija Anurijven [phoen], a person of Croat ethnicity, is asking

22 for approval to exchange his apartment. He is rejected. And Autoprjevoz

23 company, the owner of the apartment, appealed. The ministry denied his

24 appeal. And as far as I remember, this again reached the Supreme Court,

25 which again confirmed the initial decision.

1 Q. And if you look at, then, the next document, is DB157. Tell us

2 what that document is.

3 A. You must know that I haven't seen all these determinations before,

4 because I didn't deal with them. It was the legal department that was in

5 charge. This determination, again, refers to a case where an exchange of

6 apartments was applied for by Bakir Filipovic, a Muslim. The owner denied

7 his application. The ministry took it under consideration, rescinded the

8 decision of the municipality and returned this case to the municipality,

9 giving clear instructions to the municipality to approve this exchange.

10 The administrative organs of Republika Srpska, and indeed of the entire

11 Yugoslavia, allow for a procedure wherein a decision is first returned to

12 the body that made it, so that the decision is amended. And sometimes it

13 returns it even to the first-instance body.

14 Q. And this particular decision, just for instance, involves a Muslim

15 resident of Banja Luka with an apartment in Banja Luka that he wants to

16 exchange --

17 A. Exactly. Exactly.

18 Q. That he wants to exchange with somebody in Sarajevo; correct?

19 A. Exactly. He wanted to swap apartments with Milan Adzic from

20 Sarajevo.

21 Q. Now look at DB158, please, and tell the Judges what that is.

22 A. That is another example of what I tried to explain from memory.

23 When we dealt at the ministry with application for an approval for an

24 exchange of apartment of Andrija Mrvelj, and in this case the Supreme

25 Court denied the appeal made by Autoprjevoz company and proclaimed the

1 ministry's decision as correct and lawful.

2 Q. The next is DB159.

3 A. This is another determination, as far as I can see, where the

4 lower body, Banja Luka municipality, instructed, that is, ordered, this

5 Muslim citizen, Fatima Begic, to move out of her apartment within three

6 days and turn over the apartment to the rightful owner. However, the

7 ministry took this appeal of Fatima Begic under consideration, rescinded

8 the decision made before, and decided differently, in conformity with the

9 law, in favour of Fatima Begic.

10 Q. And this was in December of 1994 that the ministry is ordering

11 that this person --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- Be permitted to remain in the apartment in Banja Luka; correct?

14 A. Exactly.

15 Q. Let's look now at DB166.

16 A. This one is very particular, and I must say a very nice decision.

17 In one previous decision, we, that is, the ministry, rescinded the

18 decision of Banja Luka municipality and instructed the municipality to

19 decide again in favour of Bakir Milic. In renewed proceedings, a negative

20 decision was again made. He appealed to the Ministry of Construction, and

21 the ministry decided on merits, which was a rare occasion. The ministry

22 always -- almost always decided in favour of returning the case to the

23 lower body for adjustment and amendment, but in this case the ministry

24 actually changed the decision itself and decided on merit.

25 Q. All right. Let's go, then, to DB167. I think it's the same case,

1 now in the Supreme Court, isn't it?

2 A. Yes. Again, this decision again confirms that the ministry

3 decided correctly. The lawsuit was not won by the appealing party, and

4 the ministry won this lawsuit concerning this decision made in favour of

5 Bakir Filipovic.

6 Q. Now, I want you to look now at DB169 first, and then we'll go back

7 to 168. DB169 is dated January 29, 1993. It appears to be a letter from

8 Mr. Brdjanin to the president of the IO of Banja Luka, referring to a

9 Mr. Enes Seferagic and regarding an apartment of his mother; correct?

10 A. Yes. We have here a case of decision made through correspondence

11 between the ministry, on the one hand - this is signed by Minister

12 Brdjanin, and he's requiring the person in charge in Banja Luka

13 municipality to prevent or stop the eviction of Mrs. Rasida Seferagic,

14 mother of Enes Seferagic who appealed. In this case, no appeal reached

15 the ministry. It was just a complaint lodged with the minister, or it was

16 verbally expressed.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Could somebody like that just

18 come to the ministry and say: I have a problem I want to talk to Mr.

19 Brdjanin about? Could that happen?

20 A. Absolutely, and I am a witness to that. All assistants from the

21 ministry still keep their agendas to this day. There was no day, no one

22 day at the ministry for receiving citizens. Citizens were always

23 received. In case the minister was there himself, he would receive the

24 citizen or have his assistants receive them. And in the absence of the

25 minister, assistant ministers were always ready to receive the citizens,

1 hear their complaints, and decide, and held the resolution of their cases.

2 There are hundreds of such cases.

3 Q. At the end of this document of January 29, 1993, Mr. Brdjanin,

4 after having set out some facts, says: I hope you will issue a positive

5 ruling, and I therefore thank you in advance.

6 Would you look now at DB168, which is in February of 1993, about

7 two weeks later, and apparently --

8 A. Yes. After --

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... What the municipality of

10 Banja Luka decided after receiving Mr. Brdjanin's letter.

11 A. This is really the first time I'm looking at this, but I can

12 understand what I read. After this letter, Banja Luka municipality and

13 the responsible agency adopted the conclusion terminating the proceedings

14 instituted ex officio for the eviction of Rasida Seferagic. Therefore, we

15 can see that the lawful intervention of the minister worked, and

16 Mrs. Rasida managed to exercise her right and stay in her apartment.

17 Q. All right. Now, when you arrived here in The Hague, you brought

18 with you a number of documents that you shared with us upon your arrival,

19 and these have now been translated, and they are marked as exhibits DB170

20 through DB180. And I think we can just go through those one at a time and

21 have you explain to the Trial Chamber the significance of the document.

22 First of all, tell the Trial Chamber where these documents came from.

23 A. These documents come from the ministry's archives.

24 Q. And you brought them from the archives, you brought the originals

25 from the archives, and I think those have now been returned to you, so you

1 can return them to the archives. Is that true?

2 A. They have not been returned yet, but I insist on their recovery.

3 They are not perhaps the most important documents in the world, but they

4 are relevant to this process.

5 Q. Well, I promise you that we'll get them back in your hands before

6 you leave town.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while that's happening, I don't know

8 whether Mr. Ackerman thinks he's going to finish today --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I was --

10 MS. KORNER: If not, I wonder if we could stop at half past 1.00,

11 because I realise there are quite a number of matters I need to raise.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. There isn't much left on the basis of

13 the witness summary. I think there are just three or four points left,

14 following your line of questioning. But it's up to him. I'm not going

15 to --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we're nearly finished, Your Honour. If we

17 weren't going to stop, we would finish by 1.45, I think. But Ms. Korner

18 does need some time to address you, so I think we probably won't.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll go through these documents. Do you think we

20 can go through them in five minutes?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Probably not. We'll do the best we can. Some of

22 them require some --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you anticipate the cross-examination to

24 last, Ms. Korner?

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's one of the matters I want to

1 raise, about estimates of cross-examination. I don't think that it will

2 be much more than the two hours that Ms. Sutherland estimated yesterday.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's use these five minutes. I mean, I

4 don't fancy wasting them, in any case. So you can start, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN:

6 Q. Sir, let's start with DB170.

7 A. Your Honours, these are letters. They vary from case to case, but

8 they have similarities. On the 22nd February 1994, Minister Brdjanin

9 received a citizen by the name of Atif Fatkic from Banja Luka, who was

10 asking the footwear factory to resolve her case because the factory had

11 instituted proceedings to move her out of her apartment. This person,

12 Atif Fatkic, who had a disabled son and a wife who was unfit for

13 employment, wanted to stay in his apartment.

14 Q. And what ethnicity is Atif Fatkic?

15 A. Atif is of Muslim ethnicity.

16 Q. And what does the letter -- what did Mr. Brdjanin say in the

17 letter to the Bosna footwear factory?

18 A. In this letter addressed to the footwear factory, it is noted that

19 Atif Fatkic from Banja Luka appealed to the ministry, against the motion

20 to evict him from his apartment, and the minister wrote a very long

21 letter, saying that disabled persons are involved, and in view of the fact

22 that the procedure for housing rationalisation had not been observed, he

23 is asking that this family be left alone, briefly. That is the gist of

24 the letter.

25 Q. Look at DB171 now, please.

1 A. In this case, we see a similar situation. Alojz Pilic, I think

2 this is a Croat, was moved by his employer to a different apartment, or

3 was simply evicted, and his apartment was allocated to another person,

4 Vitomir Misic [phoen]. In this case, Mr. Brdjanin, that is, the ministry,

5 demands from the factory, as the owner of the apartment, to follow the

6 procedure, and he says here simply that the previous tenant should be

7 returned to his apartment because his tenancy right is completely legal.

8 In this way, this case is similar to the previous one.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think probably we should stop there

11 and allow Ms. Korner to tell you whatever she wants to tell you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Mr. Mandic, we need to stop here today

13 because we have got some other business to deal with before our time is

14 over. You will be accompanied by the usher out of this courtroom, and you

15 will return again tomorrow morning, 9.00. We recommence with your

16 testimony, and I'm sure we'll finish with you tomorrow morning. I thank

17 you.

18 Usher, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the first matter is one that --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, by the way.

24 MS. KORNER: That's all right, yes. What Your Honour referred to

25 a moment ago, the estimate of cross-examination. We of course base our

1 estimates on the summaries. If a witness comes and says a great deal more

2 that is not concerned -- sorry - not referred to in the summary, then the

3 estimates are not going to be worth very much. But --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you.

5 MS. KORNER: We'll do our best. And as I say, at the moment this

6 witness appears to be sticking to the summary and I don't think it will be

7 much more than two hours.

8 However, Your Honour, Your Honour ordered, at the Status

9 Conference, or pre-defence conference, on the -- I'll just get the date.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 9th.

11 MS. KORNER: 9th, on page 20832 of the transcript that there

12 should be a provisional exhibit list given to us by the 20th of October.

13 And by that, Your Honour, I have no doubt was referring to the rule, which

14 is the exhibits that are intended to be used in the Defence case, not per

15 witness.

16 Your Honour, yesterday we were given -- I don't know if Your

17 Honours got it - Exhibit list submission number 1. That one page --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That is -- yes. All right.

19 MS. KORNER: Which all referred to this witness. That's all we've

20 had.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is something that I have seen, yes.

22 MS. KORNER: So that is not satisfactory. I know that

23 Mr. Cunningham has been absent. Mr. Cunningham, the case manager, and

24 Mr. Ackerman now. What we're asking for is an order of compliance with

25 the rule, and that is there should be a list of exhibits for the defence

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1 case. As I said when we had the pre-Defence conference, obviously there

2 will be occasions when witnesses arrive unexpectedly with extra documents.

3 Your Honour, the documents that were produced through this

4 witness, which we've got urgent translations of last night, might have

5 been anticipated, because it's clear from the summary that this witness

6 was going to refer to them. Those documents should have been obtained by

7 the Defence. It doesn't require a massive amount of efficiency to do so-

8 well in advance, should have been on the advance witness list, copies

9 should have been supplied to us in advance, whether translated or not.

10 Because this can't have been unexpected documents. It's not like a

11 witness arriving with a diary or the like.

12 So, Your Honour, all together, we do say this is not satisfactory

13 and would like Your Honours to make an order that we receive a proper,

14 full exhibit list, plus copies of documents that it is known that the

15 witnesses will be dealing with. That's the first point that I make.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the second point that I make is this:

18 Witness number 2 on the list, and I'll refer to him by the number, was due

19 to come next week.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because --

21 MS. KORNER: On the original --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

23 MS. KORNER: On the original list.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But I take it that next week you're going to have

25 the military expert here.

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. The reason being that we were informed that

2 witness number 2 couldn't come. The only reason I'm raising that is this:

3 Your Honour, this is a major, major, major witness. Your Honours have

4 already discussed with us, I think, that he's likely to take a very long

5 time.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine, say two days is --

7 MS. KORNER: We have a quantity, I mean really a quantity of

8 information about him, and therefore, we would like proper advance notice

9 of this particular witness when he comes again. In other words, what I'm

10 asking is that he's not suddenly put in. We do need sufficient notice for

11 him, and any other member of the Crisis Staff who is going to give

12 evidence.

13 Your Honour, the third matter is for us, we hope the Prosecutor

14 has not been here, but we drafted a cleaned up indictment if I can put it

15 that way should be lodged sometime next week.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no hurry for that because actually my

17 inclination was, Ms. Korner, to ask you to defer that to after we have

18 handed down the written decision on the Rule 98 bis.

19 MS. KORNER: There are going to be further changes, are there,

20 Your Honour?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because for formality sake, I think -- anyway,

22 I have no problems with having it --

23 MS. KORNER: Well, no, Your Honour. We can certainly wait. That

24 was going to be my next question. For obvious reasons, one of Your

25 Honour's rulings has caused some interest, can I put it that way, and we

1 were wondering when we were likely to get the written decision.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I checked yesterday. I would say pretty soon,

3 but I can't give you the date, because it's in the process of being

4 collated together, and then it goes to the Senior Legal Officer to check

5 before it's given to me, and then obviously we have to check it again

6 amongst ourselves. It's a process which takes its time, as you know. But

7 all the staff is working on it and the latest information that I got

8 yesterday, first thing as the week started, as, of course, as you can

9 imagine: Where do we stand?

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's -- I just wondered if Your

11 Honours had an idea.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Also because I wanted to retain, maintain the

13 deadline that we had indicated, or the estimate date that we had indicated

14 some time back as being the date when the written decision was to be

15 expected.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the final two matters, which are much

17 shorter: Firstly, Your Honour, we discovered that we were right, that

18 the -- Kelly Philpott has kindly checked over the break, and that exhibit

19 was under seal. We had it marked. The Registry didn't. Now, my concern

20 is that if this happens again, an exhibit which should be truly under

21 seal, if it's not apparent on the Registry markings, can suddenly go into

22 public thing. So I'm asking if perhaps the Registry check that they have

23 probably marked all exhibits under seal which should be under seal.

24 And Your Honour, the final matter is this: Your Honours raised

25 the question of whether Mr. Brdjanin would be testifying and asked for

1 information when we met again. I don't think we've covered that one yet.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But I also -- anyway.

3 Mr. Ackerman, let's start with the list first, because when I saw

4 this list yesterday, I understood, even though it said exhibit list,

5 submission number 1, that we were having a list of documents that were

6 going to be made use of in the course of the testimony of this witness.

7 I'm obviously wrong, in the sense that you meant it to be the first phase

8 of the exhibit list that we referred to earlier on. When are we going to

9 have the pleasure of the complete list, at least interim? I understand

10 that as we go along there will be, as was the case with the Prosecution,

11 new exhibits coming to light. I don't expect you to have those included

12 now if you don't know about them. But all those documents that you know

13 about and that you intend to tender, I think it's about time that we have

14 a compilation of them. Perhaps you can, instead of forcing my hands to

15 place an order, tell me when to expect this list.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I can tell you what's happening. My first priority

17 is to get witnesses into this courtroom and prepared to keep the trial

18 going. My second priority is developing an exhibit list. That's what I

19 do when I have any time at all besides working on witnesses. What you see

20 is what is the spreadsheet on my computer that is the Defence Exhibit

21 list. Yesterday I had about three hours, I think, to spend, and I think I

22 may have added another 15 or 20 documents. I haven't looked lately, but

23 I've added some documents to that list. As soon as I get them properly

24 marked and everything, then they will be brought here and an updated list

25 will be provided. But the only way to do that that I can possibly think

1 of is on a rolling basis, Your Honour, because I have to silt and look

2 through a large quantity of documents and make a decision as to whether I

3 intend to use them as exhibits or not. I have a lot that I know I'm not

4 going to use as exhibits but I do have to go through that process having

5 gone through the witness interviews very recently in Banja Luka. I now

6 know what our witnesses basically are able to do and therefore what

7 documents -- find the documents that I think will assist them in that. So

8 I'm just working through it as fast as I can and I assure you that I will

9 use all available moments, and that's my second priority as to what needs

10 to be done here. If I had a larger staff, I might be able to do it a lot

11 quicker, but I don't.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll discuss it amongst ourselves and then we'll

13 take a decision accordingly.

14 The second point, Ms. Korner, help me.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the second point that I made was in

16 respect of -- well, this business of -- it's linked, about the sudden

17 production last night of exhibits, which clearly should have been

18 disclosed a long time ago. And when this witness was seen and interviewed

19 and said he had these documents, that's when they should have been

20 obtained. But, Your Honour, it's the same point, and I'll leave --

21 witness number 2, Your Honour, and that was really a request rather

22 than --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness number 2, I take it, because I -- you

24 have more or less confused me now. I will tell you what I understood was

25 going to happen. Originally, for the week starting on the 27th of

1 October, we were told that there was going to be Witness number 6, to be

2 followed by Witness number 2, and then in the following week, starting on

3 the 3rd of November, the week which start -- dedicating the first two days

4 to the examination of the military expert. I was then told by

5 Ms. Sutherland, either yesterday or on Friday - I don't remember exactly

6 when - that the military expert cross-examination was going to be shifted

7 to the week starting on the 27th of October, which to me meant shifting

8 the evidence of Witness number 6 to some other day. And I was taking it

9 for granted that Witness number 2 would still be coming for the last three

10 days of that week, the week starting on the 27th.

11 MS. KORNER: No. That's not what we've been told, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If that's not the position, I think we need to know

13 exactly who is coming when, at least for the next two weeks.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to have the same rule that you

15 had for the Prosecutor. On every Thursday I'll tell the Prosecutor who is

16 coming next week. That's what you had them do. They always did that to

17 us. And I want the same rule. So on Thursday I'll tell them who is

18 coming next week. They know that I will be cross-examining Mr. Brown on

19 Monday, and they also already know that Boro Blagojevic is also coming.

20 Beyond that I don't think I have to tell them. I gave them a list of our

21 witnesses and the general order we're going to call them. That's what

22 they've done with us. And I want the Thursday rule like they had.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are two matters. One is that the

24 Thursday rule was just a confirmation of what was on the list and people

25 were going backwards because people were taking longer. We gave a list in

1 advance, and particularly of major witnesses. Now, Your Honour will

2 recall that one of the reasons that Mr. Treanor and Mr. Brown have to come

3 back now is that Mr. Ackerman said that he was unable to be prepared to

4 cross-examine those witnesses. I can't now remember the reasons. I think

5 because they came -- at that stage we were piling in the rest of our

6 witnesses. But we need proper notice of major witnesses. Radic is a

7 major witness. We therefore need to know, in advance, not the Thursday

8 before the Monday, when he is coming. The same applies to major members

9 of the ARK Crisis Staff who at present are listed as witnesses. The

10 reason being is that we are preparing the same way as Mr. Ackerman and

11 Mr. Cunningham for cross-examination, by dividing up witnesses. If we're

12 suddenly told that a major witness, who, as I say, we have binders of

13 information on, is going to be appearing on the Monday and we're told that

14 on the Thursday, that's a trick to catch us out, if you like, and it's not

15 good enough. So, Your Honour, I'm just -- I don't want an order at this

16 moment, but I'm just -- I'm saying so that Your Honours know the

17 situation, and Mr. Ackerman.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, if you want to impose a

20 different rule on me than you imposed on the Prosecutor, go ahead, but I

21 think it's decidedly unfair if you do that. Ms. Korner's representations

22 to the contrary. They frequently on Thursday gave us witnesses that we

23 had no idea were coming until that moment. And so --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's deal with it in a different manner. I

25 would like you, since there is a change in the schedule as submitted to us

1 in the first place, and since it is not clear to me as to who will follow

2 Mr. Brown on week 2, that is, in the week starting on the 27th of October,

3 I would like you, Mr. Ackerman, by tomorrow, or by Thursday morning, to

4 resubmit the list of the witnesses we are expected to hear in week 2, week

5 3, and week 4.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: So you are going to impose a different rule. You

7 never made them do that, Judge.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I was asking from time to time the Prosecution to

9 give us a list of the witnesses and it was an ever-changing list, as you

10 are fully aware, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we supplied --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Being changed from day to day.

13 MS. KORNER: We can produce -- that we supply full lines of

14 municipality witnesses which were adjusted when things went wrong, but

15 that was well in advance of the witnesses coming and that's all that

16 Mr. Ackerman --

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've given them a full list of

18 witnesses through December. They have it through December.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is why you have no need to complain,

20 Mr. Ackerman, because what I am telling you is there is obviously going to

21 be a change in week 2. There is going to be a change in week 3, and I

22 don't know if, as a consequence of that, we are expected to have a change

23 in week 4. I'm asking you to review these three weeks and come back to us

24 with a replacement if necessary or a confirmation of the order of

25 witnesses that you had planned for these three weeks starting from the

1 27th of October.

2 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour can I just mention, he added

3 confusion. According to this list we got, witnesses week 5, witness

4 number 29, 25th -- two days. If you turn over the page you will see the

5 same witness in the 1st of December, but reduced to one day. So I'm not

6 quite clear what's happening there.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if it's the same one or not.

8 MS. KORNER: It is. It's the same number, Your Honour.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: It is, and that one's been removed from our list.

10 Well, it wasn't supposed to be given to you. I've given you what --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, let's not quarrel about this. We

12 require to know as well. It's not a question of the Prosecution. I mean,

13 it's a simple exercise. If you that I number 2 is going to be coming over

14 in week 4 instead of week 2, or if you don't know, you just say I don't

15 know. But in the meantime, we want to know who is going to take his place

16 in the week starting on the 27th of October.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm trying to answer you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So work on it, and Thursday morning, please come

19 back with a revised --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to answer you right now. Now that you

21 have imposed a different rule on me, I will respond.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not imposing. I'm asking you to address the

23 same list that you have to tell us what the changes are.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: On Monday, 27 October, I believe we're having

25 Mr. Brown.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: The only change in the witness order on account of

3 that will be that number 8, Milorad Sajic, will be moved probably to

4 January. Otherwise, the order stays the same. I think that answers

5 everybody's questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it doesn't answer.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Why not?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if we are moving Mr. Brown to the week of

9 the 27th October, and that cross-examination is expected to last two days,

10 then we can't possibly have in the same week witness number 6 and Witness

11 number 2.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I just said the order remains the same.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Brown will be followed by Boro Blagojevic, who

15 will be followed by Predrag Radic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right.

17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Your Honour, that's just what -- when --

18 I'm sorry to repeat out of Court conversations, but Mr. Ackerman was

19 spoken to, not by myself, but by another one of the lawyers, he informed

20 us that Mr. Radic could not come. It was not known when Mr. Radic was

21 going to come. And now suddenly we're told that he's coming, that we have

22 to have a little bit more certainty than that. We understood that Sajic

23 was going to be following on effectively, because Brown was moved up so

24 Sajic was moved up. Now we're told he's going to January.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner. Do I have the indulgence of

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1 the interpreters and the technicians to have another five minutes, sit for

2 another five minutes? Okay. I thank you.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm asking for

4 Your Honours to make an order. I want a revised witness list for

5 Christmas. This is clearly what we got now is now so confused, I would

6 like an order that we get a revised witness list by tomorrow morning,

7 until the Christmas break.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you intend to stick to the

9 cross-examination of Mr. Brown on the -- starting on Monday, the 27th of

10 October.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's one change in the list.

12 Mr. Brown got moved up to the 27th. That moved everybody else down except

13 for Milorad Sajic, who I moved to January.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but --

15 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the only change.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner takes that as a surprise and in

17 contradiction of what supposedly was exchanged between you outside the

18 courtroom.

19 MS. KORNER: We were ask to put him forward because Radic couldn't

20 come. It has got nothing to do with us. We said yes because we want to

21 assist on this and we said we were quite happy to do that. That's why I

22 raised when is Radic coming.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: That was true, Your Honour. He couldn't come

24 during the week of October 27th. That's all. It wasn't that he couldn't

25 ever come.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that he will be coming in the week

2 following, because if Brown takes two days and Blagojevic takes two to

3 three days, that's the full -- the entire week of the 27th October.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: He follows Blagojevic whenever that happens to

5 come. And I'm not sure when that's going to be.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So then presumably Mr. Radic will -- is to be

7 expected in the week starting on the 3rd. That's how I understand it now.

8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry to interrupt. I know it's killing the

9 LiveNote. Please can I have an order that let's not have this to and from

10 discussion, that tomorrow morning we get a revised witness list because we

11 have also included witness for the ten days that Mr. Ackerman has asked to

12 have off and it came as news to us that Mr. Sajic was not going to be

13 here.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I object very strongly to any

15 kind of an order like that because it would be totally different treatment

16 than what you ordered with the Prosecutor. It would just be unfair.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't think it's a case that we give an order.

18 We've never given any such orders. What we are making clear is that the

19 understanding is that Mr. Brown will commence -- the cross-examination of

20 Mr. Brown will commence on the 27th of October, and that it's expected to

21 last two days. Mr. Brown will be followed by the testimony of-- why -- I

22 can mention the name Boro Blagojevic, which is expect to last two to three

23 days, and that should take, therefore, the entire week, starting on the

24 27th of October. And that the testimony of Mr. Radic, according to what

25 Mr. Ackerman is saying, will commence on Monday, the 3rd of November.

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's -- if Your Honour won't

2 make the order, but I would have thought Your Honours would have liked to

3 know -- Your Honours have made orders before, and Your Honours -- I

4 should -- my submission is that Mr. Ackerman's bleat of this is unfair is

5 nonsense. This is -- He knows what the witnesses are likely to be. But,

6 however, if Your Honours won't make the order --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you were satisfied with what has been

8 stated, I mean, for the time being at least. Now, if there is a change,

9 then obviously we will change too.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I make it absolutely clear that they

11 need not bring -- if Radic is going to start on Monday, the 3rd of

12 November, he's going to take the whole week; in fact, probably longer.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm fully aware of that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's stop there, for the time being,

16 because the next witness would be Milorad Sajic, and you said that he

17 won't be coming here before January.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Not before January. The following -- following,

19 Predrag Radic, will be number 5.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

21 MS. KORNER: Can I ask, at least on a counsel-to-counsel basis,

22 instead of just announcing this today, which is the first time we've heard

23 it: We've got somebody preparing for Sajic. Your Honour, that's why I

24 say: This stop/start is not good enough. I appreciate we did have

25 problems. That's what Mr. Ackerman refers to. And we confirmed the

1 following week. But the list of potential witnesses was notified well in

2 advance, and as soon as we knew that there was a problem, we informed the

3 Defence.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if this changes again,

5 and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the witnesses that you have here

6 eventually will decide not to come forward, Ms. Korner.

7 MS. KORNER: All right. And, Your Honours, what about

8 Mr. Brdjanin? Are we going to be told whether he's going to testify at

9 some stage or not?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and that is the last. Do I take it that your

11 client is not testifying, Mr. Ackerman, at this stage?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's not the last matter, and no

13 decision has been made about that. But I am very upset by another matter

14 that is raised by Ms. Korner today.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is what?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Which is: Throughout the Prosecution's case,

17 witnesses would show up with diaries, with documents, with all kinds of

18 things, and the Prosecutor would say: Gee, Judge, we didn't know about

19 them until they came here with them, and please excuse us. And I never

20 once stood up and accused them of being dishonest about that, not once.

21 And the first time one of our witnesses comes with documents that we

22 didn't know he was bringing, she gets up and accuses us of dishonesty,

23 that we must have known about them a long time and just withheld them

24 intentionally. And I resent that greatly, because it's not true.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it, Mr. Ackerman.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: It's outrageous.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it, Mr. Ackerman.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I didn't -- I'm not suggesting

4 Mr. Ackerman did this intentionally. What I'm suggesting is that when his

5 investigator, or Mr. Ackerman, or Mr. Cunningham, saw this witness, it was

6 clear he was going to talk about this from the summary, that is the stage

7 at which the document should have been collected. But I'm not accusing

8 Mr. Ackerman of dishonesty.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's exactly what she was doing, and

10 I tell you, as an officer of this Court, that we had no idea he was

11 bringing these documents.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I take your word, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: We had asked him to see if he could find some

14 documents.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I take it that everyone knows exactly

17 what his or her responsibilities are, and that as soon as documents become

18 available, you will make them available too, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we didn't just do it, you know, at our

20 leisure. We got the CLSS to process them in less than a day. It's not

21 like we were dragging our feet about them. And I just really resent

22 Ms. Korner's accusations in that regard.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We stand adjourned until tomorrow

24 morning at 9.00, and then please do remember that we will continue again

25 in the afternoon.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

3 October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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