Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21427

1 Thursday, 23 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a reason why our LiveNote on the laptops is

7 not on? Anyway, let's move. In the meantime, you will look into it or

8 someone comes up to look into it so that we don't waste time. We can

9 follow the transcript on the main monitor. Is that okay with you?

10 All right. Is your laptop working properly?

11 MS. KORNER: It is, Your Honour, yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus

14 Radoslav Brdjanin.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you, ma'am.

16 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in a language that

17 you can understand?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

19 can.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat.

21 Appearances. Prosecution.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Julian Nicholls, with

23 Joanna Korner, and Denise Gustin.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you.

25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

Page 21428

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours. David Cunningham

2 with Aleksandar Vujic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir. Welcome back. Today you

4 are going to be cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls for the Prosecutor. My

5 word of advice to you is to keep your answers as concise and as precise

6 as they were when you were being examined by Mr. Cunningham. It will

7 make sure that you will be out of this courtroom by the end of today's

8 business.

9 One other thing that I need to advise you upon is that in

10 accordance and pursuant to the oath that you took yesterday, to speak the

11 truth, the whole truth -- it's not just me. You have an obligation to

12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, not only

13 when you're being asked by the lawyer -- by the Defence team that brought

14 you here, but also when you are being cross-examined by the opposite

15 party, by the other party. That's the Prosecution. So your obligation

16 stays. And in fact, the usher is now going to approach you once more

17 with the text of your solemn declaration which you are kindly asked to

18 repeat. Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, sir. You may sit down.

22 That was of yesterday probably.

23 Yes, Mr. Nicholls, sorry about these minor interruptions, but

24 sometimes we mark what we have on the laptop, and as we were, we couldn't

25 do that.

Page 21429

1 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Take your time. There's no hurry. You

3 have got the whole morning sitting for yourself if you want to.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. I read the transcript

5 yesterday and I think it may be even shorter than I thought beforehand.

6 I'm sorry, could the ELMO please be moved somehow. I can't see

7 the witness's face.

8 WITNESS: Branko Cvijic [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that --

12 MR. NICHOLLS: That's fine.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that fine with you, Ms. Korner, as well?

14 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.


17 Q. Good morning, sir.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. We're going to try to finish today as quickly as possible. As

20 you did with Mr. Cunningham, many questions will be answerable with a yes

21 or no and that's usually the best way to answer. The Judge also reminded

22 you about the oath, and I think you told the truth yesterday as best you

23 could. Isn't that right?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And you have been interviewed by the Defence before in this case,

Page 21430

1 I imagine, probably in Banja Luka and also here in The Hague, and you

2 told them the truth when you --

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. And you told them the truth when you answered their questions,

5 didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in addition you spoke with an attorney from our office, an

8 investigator. You alluded to that yesterday. In July of 2001, and when

9 you spoke with them, you told them the truth as best you could, didn't

10 you?

11 A. Yes, I told the truth, and that was in July, but also in

12 September 1992 in Banja Luka.

13 Q. Okay. Sorry, that was in 2001 that I'm speaking of, July 2001,

14 you were spoken with by members of our office.

15 A. I had two interviews with your representatives. One interview was

16 shorter than the other. And I believe that it was -- yes, you're right,

17 2001.

18 Q. Let me just take you, because I think you put it nicely, the last

19 page of your interview, that should come up on Sanction. And if you like,

20 I can give you a copy in your language with the portions highlighted.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, we're having copies made. I thought

22 they had been made. There was a miscommunication just in case the

23 Sanction doesn't work perfectly.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It is. You have to press, Mr. Cunningham, you have

25 to press "computer evidence" to see the document.

Page 21431


2 Q. Now, sir, I'll just read the portion I'm interested in and you can

3 tell me if that's correct.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which page are you referring to, Mr. Nicholls?

5 Which one of the two, the first or the second?

6 MR. NICHOLLS: The one on the left is B/C/S, the right is --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, all right.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: And because it's difficult to read, I'll read it

9 out loud.



12 Q. You were asked at about line 15 if you had anything to add at the

13 end of the interview. And your response was this: "No, I don't think

14 that any of the questions were unclear in any way. I think that

15 everything was clarified, and I did try to give you the most candid

16 answers I could and tell you exactly what happened. My own profession

17 dictates that I tell you what I know, so I have no questions, I have no

18 remarks. What I knew, I told you."

19 Now, that's true, isn't it? That was a true statement by you?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, we may have some more -- well, we will probably

22 have some more times that we refer to this document. At the moment, I'm

23 going to look at page 3. Sir, if you could look at -- that's page 3 in

24 the English. Sir, if you could open your version to the page, on the top

25 it will have the number L0110415.

Page 21432












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13 English transcripts.













Page 21433

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you having problems, Mr. Cunningham, with

2 following the document? And your client?

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No. Judge, we're having no problems, it's just

4 small print.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, I know. At our age, at my age in

6 particular, it starts to show.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: As I said, copies are on the way, hard copies.

8 Q. Now, on page of this interview, you were asked as a sort of

9 preliminary question whether you had been asked to be a witness by the

10 Defence. And this was your answer in July 2001: "Yes, they asked me if I

11 would be a witness for Mr. Brdjanin. But since I never worked in the team

12 with Mr. Brdjanin, and I never attended a single meeting of the Crisis

13 Staff, I declined the offer of becoming a witness for him because I had

14 nothing to say in his defence. I have nothing to say whatsoever. I don't

15 have the actual information. I told them this, well, about a year and a

16 half ago, even more, and no one's asked me again."

17 Now, the question is -- is that what it says in your version, in

18 your language?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Now, there, I think what you were saying was, one, that you didn't

21 work closely with Brdjanin in 1992. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, it may be said so.

23 Q. And also you were saying there that you really had no idea what

24 went on in ARK Crisis Staff meetings. Isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21434

1 Q. Okay. I'm going to move on to another topic now. You don't need

2 to keep looking at that document.

3 You told us you graduated from law school in 1964. Is that right?

4 A. That is right.

5 Q. Since that time, have you obtained any advanced legal degrees, any

6 further diplomas, Ph.D.'s, any kind of further qualifications in law?

7 A. No. I just passed some exams.

8 Q. And that was right after you graduated. Correct?

9 A. Yes. For administrative law.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And I did my bar exam later.

12 Q. All right. Now, you've told us as well that your work as a

13 secretary in the municipality was essentially an administrative task.

14 That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. More administrative, and it also had a lot to do with legislation.

16 Q. Yes. Let me just read something you said in your interview. This

17 is on page 7. I don't know if we necessarily need to put it up. Let's

18 see if you agree this is correct. "My duties as a secretary were more

19 administrative. My task was to -- after the decisions or conclusions were

20 prepared by the government or by the Executive Committee were made. I was

21 supposed to copy that, prepare it all, call a session of the assembly with

22 Mr. Radic, and make sure that each of the delegates had their material,

23 secure the premises where the session would be held and to attend the

24 session. To work with Mr. Radic on preserving the normality of the

25 session, that was basically what I did."

Page 21435

1 Is that a fair statement of your duties?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And I believe one of your duties was editing the minutes and

4 preparing the minutes.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you said I think several times yesterday that you were never a

7 member of any ARK Crisis Staff. In fact, you were never asked to be the

8 secretary of either the municipal Crisis Staff in Banja Luka or the

9 regional Crisis Staff, were you?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And by "yes," you mean that you were not ever invited to be a

12 secretary for those bodies?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Yes, I'm answering your question. It's true that nobody ever

16 asked me, nor did I ever go there.

17 Q. Thank you. I'm curious about this: Did you ever edit the

18 Prijedor municipal Official Gazette?

19 A. No.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to just show the witness P1407. That is

21 the Official Gazette of the Municipality of Prijedor, year 1, number 3,

22 1992.

23 Q. Now, sir, this isn't a trick question or anything, I just want you

24 to look at the last page of that, the very bottom of the last page. On my

25 copy in English, it states: "The Official Gazette is published by the

Page 21436

1 Municipal Assembly of Prijedor. It is edited by the technical services

2 editor, Branko Cvijic."

3 A. Excuse me, where are you reading this?

4 Q. It should be at the very bottom of the last page of the B/C/S.

5 A. What it says in my copy is Dusan Baltic, editor-in-chief.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's -- the copy that we have, Mr. Nicholls, at

7 least Judge Janu who reads the language, at least the Cyrillic script, is

8 confirming to me that what the witness said is correct.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: All right, thank you. I'll move on.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: How do these mistakes happen?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know this-- what happened, Your Honour.

12 MS. KORNER: We've seen it happen over and over again,

13 unfortunately, as with the names of the original ARK Crisis Staff.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't blame you. I mean, I would react exactly

15 myself.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: I often check them myself. With the Cyrillic, but

17 it's clear here, and I just wanted to ask the witness if he was the same

18 person.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I would see no reason why I would have to go and

20 double check with the original. Because this is not a misspelled name.

21 It's a completely different person.

22 All right, okay.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: And also --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that. Let's proceed.


Page 21437

1 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. I just wanted to clear that up. And it has

2 been.

3 I want to now turn to a different topic, something you spoke of --

4 a lot of time yesterday on, which are the Crisis Staffs which appeared in

5 1992. Now, the Banja Luka Municipal Crisis Staff, you were asked about

6 that in 2001. And a couple years ago in 2001, you weren't aware of who

7 all the members of the Banja Luka Municipal Crisis Staff were. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And you remember being shown a Glas article, which is actually

11 P137 for reference, and your comment on that was: "I didn't know that the

12 police, the army, and the police were represented to such a degree on the

13 staff." Do you remember that, or do you want to look at the documents?

14 A. I don't need to look at the documents. I really didn't know that

15 the army and the police were so represented. But it was put to me, and I

16 later checked it and found out that indeed on every staff, there was a

17 representative of the army and a representative of the police.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. One representative, but I hadn't known that before.

20 Q. Now, I want to talk a little bit -- we might come back to the

21 municipal Crisis Staff, but now I'm asking you some questions -- we're

22 going to change. I'm talking about the ARK regional Crisis Staff.

23 Now, in 1992, General Momir Talic was a fairly important person in

24 the Banja Luka area. Is that fair?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 21438












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13 English transcripts.













Page 21439

1 Q. So was Predrag Radic because of his positions as you outlined

2 yesterday?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So was Stojan Zupljanin?

5 A. Yes, Stojan Zupljanin was chief of police.

6 Q. And Vojo Kupresanin was also a pretty important man in the

7 Banja Luka region.

8 A. Well, you couldn't say that, really. He made himself out to be

9 more important than he was.

10 Q. Well, he held an important position.

11 A. Yes, that's true. He was president of the assembly of the

12 Autonomous Region of Krajina.

13 Q. Now, you also know, don't you, that all of these men were on the

14 ARK Crisis Staff? They were members, along with Mr. Brdjanin?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. So when you said yesterday that anybody could proclaim themselves

17 anything they wanted to be in relation to the ARK Crisis Staff, to be

18 fair, it really wasn't just anybody who proclaimed themselves or who

19 became the ARK Crisis Staff; it was the local political, military, and

20 police leadership, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes. They were, thanks to their positions and the duties they

22 discharged, so they were appointed ex officio, including the president of

23 the court, the district prosecutor, and the dean of the university,

24 although his position seems unrelated. But nevertheless...

25 Q. Okay, you've answered that question. Thank you.

Page 21440

1 Now, you also said yesterday when talking about the ARK and

2 reading some statutes which Defence counsel showed you that you didn't

3 consider it statutorily authorised or legal. Correct?

4 A. I believed that these people could not pass decisions or laws with

5 legal effect until the moment they are ratified by Municipal Assembly. I

6 am here talking about some relationships. I didn't say anything about any

7 specific issues because I don't know anything about any specific issues.

8 Q. Okay. Well, I'll try to avoid too many specific issues, then, if

9 you don't feel competent to talk about them.

10 One of the -- let me put it to you this way: Regardless of

11 whether -- of your answer now, the Crisis Staffs, including the ARK Crisis

12 Staff, enjoyed the support of the top SDS leadership, men like Karadzic

13 and Krajisnik, didn't it -- didn't they?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. So even if they didn't have a sort of legal authority, they had

16 a -- kind of inherent authority since they were supported by the top SDS

17 leadership at that time, regardless of the technical legality.

18 A. I was speaking as a lawyer, a person from the profession. I know

19 what their competencies were. Now, whether they had something that went

20 beyond their competencies, I can't talk about that. But it is true that

21 they enjoyed the support of the SDS.

22 Q. All right, thank you.

23 I want to talk just a little bit now about the minutes that were

24 kept by different bodies during this time. You've already stated that one

25 of your duties was to keep the minutes and to preserve them. Correct, of

Page 21441

1 your Municipal Assembly?

2 A. Municipal Assembly sessions were recorded, audiorecorded. There

3 was a person who did that. And after the sessions, I would do

4 transcripts, and I would do excerpts from the minutes. The audiotapes

5 were preserved, and I compiled excerpts from those tapes, together with

6 the person in charge of those tapes.

7 Q. And from reading your interview, I got the impression - you tell

8 me if I was right or wrong - that you viewed that task very seriously and

9 you were scrupulous in trying to keep the important information that ended

10 up contained in those minutes.

11 A. Yes, yes. But we are talking only about the sessions of the

12 Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka.

13 Q. I understand. Only the sessions where that was your specific

14 duty. Correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Do you know where those minutes and tapes are now?

17 A. All that was left when I left in the Municipal Assembly building

18 in Room Number 67. Nowadays, this whole thing has been dismantled, and

19 this particular room houses another person's office. All those documents

20 were then archived, but I don't know where. But I am -- I believe that

21 everything has been archived; however, not in that same room where it was

22 when I was there.

23 Q. Do you believe that they're in the same building, though?

24 A. Yes, I believe so, yes.

25 Q. Now, the secretary -- well, tell me if you remember. What was

Page 21442

1 Boro Blagojevic's function in 1992 as a secretary?

2 A. Boro Blagojevic was the secretary of the ARK Krajina Assembly. He

3 was the only professional working in the ARK Krajina. I believe that he

4 attended all the sessions of the assembly, of the Executive Board, and of

5 the Crisis Staff.

6 Q. Okay. Now, one of the points in your interview, talking about how

7 you kept minutes, you stated that Mr. Blagojevic -- you didn't know how he

8 kept the minutes, whether he tape recorded them or transcribed them, but

9 that he had to have kept them. That's how things were done. Do you still

10 agree with that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you have any idea where those minutes are archived today?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know.

14 Q. I'm going to now talk about another short subject. You've brought

15 it up yourself already, verification. Did you know -- do you know that

16 the ARK Assembly verified the decisions and conclusions of the

17 Crisis Staff on 17th of July 1992?

18 A. No, I don't know. I don't know when sessions took place, what was

19 verified. I don't know.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I show the witness P285, please. For the

21 record, these are the extracts from the minutes of the Assembly of the

22 Autonomous Region of Krajina of 17 July 1992.

23 Q. Sir, the item I'm interested in having you read is item 4. Could

24 you just read that in your language, please, and tell me when you're done.

25 Now, this is a vote of 98-1, to verify all theses decisions and

Page 21443

1 conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff. That's a pretty strong endorsement

2 by the assembly, wouldn't you say?

3 A. Yes. It's obvious.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm done with that document. I'm going to move

5 on to another area. And this is something you also talked about a little

6 bit yesterday, implementation of ARK Crisis Staff conclusions. And first,

7 I'd like you to be given, please, P223 and P227. P227 is the ARK Gazette.

8 I'm interested in the 21st of May decision. That's actually decision

9 number 14 if it makes it easier to find it.

10 A. I apologise. Can you please point me to a certain page? I'm

11 having difficulties finding that particular thing.

12 Q. There's no need to apologise. I think the usher can help you.

13 It's decision 14, 21st of May. I'm sorry, I don't have the B/C/S ERN. I

14 can probably find it if it's given to me. The dates are in English -- not

15 in English, but in Latin.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you found -- usher, have you found both

17 versions, English and B/C/S? All right, okay.

18 If you have a problem, I can give you mine.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, I think I've got the B/C/S here.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are fixed.


22 Q. Now, sir, if you look at the extract of the minutes of the 77th

23 session of the Executive Committee of Banja Luka Municipality, if you

24 could just read that document, conclusions 1 and 2 to yourself and tell me

25 when you're done. And that's P223.

Page 21444

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, could I ask the usher to move the

2 English version up a little bit on the ELMO, please. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read item 1 and item 2.


5 Q. Thank you. Now, looking at the 21st of May 1992 ARK Crisis Staff

6 conclusions, could you read items 1, 2, and 3, please.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: For the record, now reading from P227.

8 Q. What both of these documents contain in their conclusions are,

9 one, that all workers absent from work for three days without proper

10 justification will be given notice by the relevant authorities. And two,

11 that sick leave if granted must be strictly examined to make sure that it

12 wasn't an effort to avoid mobilisation or work obligations.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you'd agree with me, wouldn't you, that the conclusions of the

15 21st of May ARK Crisis Staff meeting are virtually identical to the

16 conclusions of the 1st of June 1992 meeting of the Executive Committee of

17 the Banja Luka Municipality?

18 A. Yes. If we are looking at items 1 and 2 on the first document,

19 and items 1, 2, and 3 on the second document, then yes, they are

20 identical.

21 Q. Exactly. And those conclusions on the Executive Committee

22 document would be mandatory, would they not?

23 A. They should be mandatory. However, I don't know to what extent

24 they were implemented. I don't think that they were ever observed in the

25 very strict way that they were drafted here. But it is correct that

Page 21445

1 according to the labour law which was then in effect and is still in

2 effect, a person who is absent from work for three days without any

3 justification, they can be given a notice. And that stems from the labour

4 law, and this provision of the labour law has been incorporated into both

5 sets of conclusions, and they only somehow stepped up the measures by

6 saying that all the sick leaves will be checked.

7 Q. Okay. Now, there's an example of where you were going way beyond

8 the answer you needed to give to the question. I appreciate you wanting

9 to explain, but the question was whether these were mandatory. And you

10 answered yes, legally in principle, the way you have been speaking about

11 technical legalities, they were. So that's all you really need to say to

12 answer the question.

13 However, you do know that in concrete terms in reality as a result

14 of both of these sets of conclusions, people were dismissed from their

15 employment in 1992. Right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. I'd like to go back to P1407 with some trepidation. That is the

18 Prijedor Gazette.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'd also like the witness to be given P258

20 which is an ARK Crisis Staff decision of 19th of June 1992.

21 Sorry, Your Honours, I don't know which list you have --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is our executives obviously prepared the

23 documents for us based on the document list that was last available, and

24 that was yesterday's. So we don't have 258. I do have 1407. And I say

25 it with trepidation, too, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 21446

1 MR. NICHOLLS: And I apologise that you didn't have them all

2 together in advance.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. It can be solved by putting it on the



6 Q. Now, if we look first at P1407 -- well, sorry, let's do it the

7 other way around. First let's look at P258. And what I'd like you to

8 look at it, sir, you can go straight to decision number 45. Just make

9 sure we're looking at the right document, this is the Official Gazette of

10 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, first year, number 3.

11 A. Page?

12 Q. Now, just to yourself, could you read decision number 45, which

13 states that the proper municipal organs of administration shall be

14 informed of all abandoned property which shall then be proclaimed property

15 of the state and placed at the disposal of Municipal Assemblies.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: That should be ERN 00389001 in B/C/S.

17 Q. All I need you to do right now, sir, is read that to yourself and

18 let me know when you've read it and understood. Actually, just the first

19 part of that decision 1, of that decision.

20 A. I've read it.

21 Q. All right. Now, I'd like to look at Exhibit P1407, the Prijedor

22 Official Gazette. And I'm interested in decision 122, which is:

23 "Decision on the temporary allocation of immoveable property that has

24 been declared state property." Now, you don't need to read that whole

25 decision, sir. I'm most interested in the preamble. It should be on

Page 21447

1 about the second page. It's right at the beginning. It states:

2 "Pursuant to Article 1 of the decision of the Crisis Staff of the

3 Autonomous Region of Krajina (Official Gazette of the Autonomous Region of

4 Krajina, number 3/92), Article 1 of the decision to declare property that

5 has been abandoned state property..." And it goes on to cite Article 230

6 of the statute of the Municipality of Prijedor, that this decision is

7 being taken.

8 Have you found that?

9 A. Yes, I have. I've found it.

10 Q. And have you read both of those sections?

11 A. I have indeed.

12 Q. Now, again, as a lawyer, wouldn't this be an example to you of an

13 ARK decision being implemented --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I've an objection. He's already

16 testified yesterday that he'd never had no knowledge of what was going on

17 in other municipalities. To ask him to comment on this would be rank

18 speculation. I object.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: That's --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not speculation. It's not speculation. He's

21 being faced with a document, and he's being asked for his personal opinion

22 on it. He has been giving us personal opinions based on his legal

23 expertise and also administrative expertise. So go ahead.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. And I'd also like to say I think that's

25 a mischaracterisation of the evidence yesterday. Mr. Cunningham asked him

Page 21448

1 about Mr. Brdjanin's --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time, Mr. Nicholls. Go ahead.


4 Q. I'm sorry for that interruption, sir. As a lawyer, you'd agree

5 with me, wouldn't you, that this is an example of an ARK Crisis Staff

6 decision being used and being implemented in the Prijedor Municipality by

7 the Prijedor Crisis Staff?

8 A. This stems from the preamble of this decision wherein they are

9 citing the decision of the Crisis Staff as the legal foundation as well as

10 the Official Gazette of the Prijedor Municipality. It stems from this

11 that this decision was adopted in keeping with the decision adopted by the

12 ARK Krajina and the statute of Prijedor, yes.

13 Q. So the answer to my question, in short - you've explained it

14 well - is yes. This is an example of authority and the implementation of

15 the ARK in Prijedor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We might be able to make some of this quicker and look at a few

18 less documents. Let me ask you a question. Are you aware that through

19 the ARK Crisis Staff decisions and conclusions in 1992, media personnel,

20 people who worked for Banja Luka Radio and Banja Luka TV, were dismissed

21 from their positions? That's correct, isn't it?

22 A. I don't know. I really wouldn't be able to tell you that. I know

23 that there were dismissals, but I believe that the dismissals were carried

24 out by the party because at that time, the SDS was very strong in that

25 area. Their personnel policy was being implemented.

Page 21449

1 Q. Let me - we'll do this very quickly - go back to P227, the 8th of

2 May decision.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, may I ask Mr. Nicholls which

4 decision number that is, please.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Number 4.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham, Mr. Nicholls.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: It should be 00497840.

8 Q. And to tell if we're on the right page, if you look at number 4,

9 sir, it should state: "In the future, the Krajina mass media are to

10 operate according" -- I'm sorry. Number 9 is the one I'm interested in.

11 That may be on the next page. The second paragraph of conclusion number 9

12 which states: "All management posts in enterprises must be held by

13 persons absolutely loyal to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina."

15 Have you read that, sir?

16 A. No, no, I haven't. I didn't have -- I haven't found it. If you

17 could help me, please.

18 Yes, yes, that is item 9, paragraph 2.

19 Q. Yes. Why don't you read items 9 and 4 to yourself and tell me

20 when you're done.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, will Mr. Ackerman be coming here

22 this morning?

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: If the Court desires his presence --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like his presence here to discuss the list

25 of witnesses because I went through it more accurately, and I think he

Page 21450

1 needs to give us some explanations.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would require him here, say, at about half 11,

4 12.00, something like that.

5 What time do you think you will finish, Mr. Nicholls?

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Probably soon after the break. Soon after the

7 break I would think.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Soon after the break. So he should be here at about

9 11.00.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll call him at the break.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: My guess is about 11.30.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. You've read those.

13 You were asked about those conclusions during your interview in

14 2001. And I can show it to you if you want to read your exact answer.

15 You were asked whether or not those were carried out. And your answer

16 was: "I could not tell you right now whether they were implemented to a

17 hundred per cent degree or not." And maybe we could put this on the ELMO.

18 Page 41 in English.

19 "But I've already told you that as far as item 4 is concerned,

20 that the key positions that people were appointed to, the key positions in

21 the media, by the Crisis Staff, and possibly by the SDS -- oh, no, I'm

22 sorry, by the SDS and possibly by the Crisis Staff, and regarding item 9,

23 again, as it's written, I can't tell you that it was fully implemented.

24 But there is no doubt that there were companies that did implement this."

25 A. Yes. And today, I could repeat it word for word. What I said is

Page 21451

1 absolutely correct.

2 Q. Thank you, sir.

3 I'd like to now talk a little bit about another topic you spoke

4 about yesterday, which was the Crisis Staff's competence legally or in

5 fact to control or order the police to take certain actions. Okay? And

6 I'd like to give -- have you now look at P227 again.

7 A. Which particular decision from this Official Gazette do you refer

8 to?

9 Q. Conclusion number 7, which is the 11th of May 1992 ARK Crisis

10 Staff conclusion. And the only one I'm really interested in you reading

11 right now is number 1, which concerns the extension of a deadline for the

12 surrender of illegally acquired weapons on the 14th of May 1992 at 2400

13 hours. Just read all of conclusion number 2 if you could.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: If the usher might want to get P202 ready.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it.


17 Q. Thank you. Now, the last paragraph of that conclusion number 1

18 states: "After the deadline expires, weapons will be confiscated by

19 employees of the Security Services Centre of the Autonomous Region of

20 Krajina and severe sanctions will be imposed on those who ignore the call

21 of the Crisis Staff." Correct?

22 A. That's what it says, yes.

23 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at P202. This is a Banja Luka security

24 services dispatch dated the 20th of May 1992. And I don't know if it's

25 signed by or has a signature block - I don't have the B/C/S original - but

Page 21452

1 it's attributed to Stojan Zupljanin. What I'd like you to look at

2 specifically, sir, is --

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to look at item number 23. And while

5 you're reading that, just to clarify so you don't get confused, this is a

6 dispatch dated the 20th of May 1992, but it relates to the conclusions of

7 a meeting held on the 6th of May 1992. So please tell me when you've read

8 section 23. It begins: "In all our activities, we are obliged to

9 observe all measures and apply all procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff

10 of the autonomous region." And then it states: "With regard to

11 disarmament, when the deadline for weapons surrender expires on 11 May

12 1992, we should take no objection until the Crisis Staff makes the

13 relevant decisions. It is very important that we solve this problem

14 comprehensively, insisting on the disarmament of extremist groups."

15 Tell me when you've finished reading that.

16 A. I have finished.

17 Q. Now, is that not what we've just put together, an order by the

18 Crisis Staff to the CSB and a recognition by the CSB that it is bound to

19 carry out that order? That's what it is legally, reading these papers as

20 a lawyer. Right?

21 A. Yes. But I did not know about this. However, it does follow from

22 these documents that what you say is correct.

23 Q. I understand, sir, and I wasn't trying to imply anything. I fully

24 believe that you've never seen this document before, and I should have

25 prefaced that to you. I know you haven't seen it.

Page 21453

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: May have one moment, Your Honour.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm just trying to see if

5 I can shorten my presentation.

6 Q. You were -- completely different topic now. You read yesterday or

7 you were given to read yesterday the statute of the Zobk, as we call it,

8 P2354. I'd ask you to look at that again, and again look at Article 35,

9 would you please, which you read yesterday. And I'll also ask that you be

10 given Exhibit P285.

11 I'm sorry, P258, not 285. P258.

12 A. Article 35 of the statute I have read, and I don't know which

13 decision from this other document you mean. So would you please help me

14 here.

15 Q. Yes, sir. It is decision number 42. This is the decision on

16 the -- on amending and supplementing the statute of the Autonomous Region

17 of Krajina. And what that decision of 15 June 1992 states is that

18 paragraph 2 of Article 35 of the statute is amended to read: "The

19 decisions and conclusions of the Assembly must be respected by the

20 municipalities, thereby striking the language, decisions and conclusions

21 of the Assembly shall become binding for the member municipalities once

22 they have been approved by the assemblies of the municipalities."

23 Now, having read that, sir, my only real question is were you

24 aware of that amendment before you just read it now?

25 A. Never. I'm seeing this for the first time.

Page 21454

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. But I can comment upon it if you wish me to.

3 Q. No, that's all right. I just wondered if you'd seen it. But

4 again, from --

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. -- From a document we looked at earlier, though, if you remember,

7 we know this is one of those decisions and conclusions of the ARK Crisis

8 Staff that was, in fact, ratified, as they all were. Isn't that right?

9 A. Yes, if it refers to that assembly meeting which it invokes

10 seemingly 98 to 1 ratio. But I cannot confirm before I compare the two.

11 I cannot know if this is the deadline meant.

12 Q. All right, that's okay.

13 I'm now going to switch topics again completely, talk briefly

14 about something that you also talked about in 2001, and that is the

15 Serbian Defence Forces or SOS in Banja Luka in 1992. Now, in April 1992,

16 you heard of, learned of the SOS. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They, in fact, kept you from getting into your own office on the

19 day that the town was blockaded, didn't they?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's fair to say that maybe not all, but many of the members

22 of the SOS were criminals?

23 A. Yes, most of them. As it later turned out, most of them were.

24 Q. Yes. And you agree with me that essentially this was a

25 paramilitary force?

Page 21455

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And it's also true that until our interview in July 2001 when you

3 were shown a document, you didn't know that they were commanded by

4 Nenad Stevandic, did you?

5 A. No, I didn't know it then.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: For the record, the document is P400, the report on

7 paramilitaries in the region.

8 Q. And in fact, it wasn't until that interview when you read the Glas

9 article that you knew that Stevandic was a member of the ARK Crisis Staff.

10 Isn't that right?

11 A. I didn't know it until then, no.

12 Q. But you did know, and you remembered then, that eventually the SOS

13 became part of the CSB special detachment under the command of

14 Stojan Zupljanin. Correct?

15 A. That is correct. But I also said that Zupljanin and Talic both

16 dissociated themselves from them, although Talic ended up accepting or

17 admitting a part of them.

18 Q. Yes. And regardless, you do know that some of these men, the SOS,

19 became part of the special unit which was actually formally under the

20 command of Stojan Zupljanin?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if we could break early, I may have a

23 very short - it's gone more quickly than I expected - I may have something

24 very short after the break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My apologies to you, interpreters,

Page 21456

1 please.

2 Let's have a 30-minute break straight away which will make it

3 possible for everyone to reorganise what needs to be reorganised.

4 I require Mr. Ackerman here, the sooner the better. And basically

5 what we are talking about, so that you advise him, is the list of

6 witnesses that we have and the tentative complete list of witnesses that

7 he submitted before and his declaration that he hopes that more or less he

8 should be able to finish the Defence case by the end of January roughly

9 because I find myself in a position where I can hardly understand how that

10 can be possible. So we need to talk about it and see what the true

11 position is. All right? Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just mention.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. The witness I think can leave the

14 courtroom, no?

15 MS. KORNER: Yes, he can Your Honour. But just so Mr. Ackerman

16 knows, and Your Honours may want to see where we are on that, for a reason

17 I'll explain.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason why I want Mr. Ackerman here is that I

19 have studied these two lists a little bit more carefully, and in the

20 process of doing so I discovered that, for example, Witness Number 9 --

21 Number 32 who was proposed to come here sometime in November is scheduled

22 to testify for three days here, according to this latest list, but

23 originally he was indicated -- needed only for one day, and that would

24 have included also your cross-examination.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, which one was that, Your Honour?

Page 21457

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness Number 32, and the same for Number 17, four

2 lines up. He is indicated as needing two days now. Before he was

3 indicated as needing half a day, and I want to know where we stand. If he

4 comes here and he finishes the testimony in half a day and we lose the

5 rest of the week, I will get angry, Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's what I raised the day before

7 yesterday. And Your Honour will recall it all ended unhappily. But can I

8 just mention one specific aspect of the proposed witness list, and that's

9 this: The municipalities not called by the Prosecution and in two cases

10 not investigated. Your Honour, I would like to know sooner rather than

11 later, as I'm sure Your Honours would, whether it is still intended to

12 call witnesses relating to Glamoc, Laktas, Srbac. Because if it is, Your

13 Honour, we will have to do some investigating which will cost this

14 Tribunal more money. And so clearly, if it's not intended now to do this,

15 then I would like to know.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, perhaps you can pass on the message.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I will, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And my concern more particularly is that if

19 everything goes according to schedule based on this last list, by the end

20 of the week starting on the 12th of January, Mr. Cunningham, we would have

21 covered 18 witnesses of the Defence which basically subtracted from the 65

22 that you have indicated would leave us with a number of witnesses that

23 according to your own estimate require 40 days of testimony. And that

24 would take us into March, if not April. And I'm not prepared to accept

25 that.

Page 21458

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I understand.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that Mr. Ackerman said that this list will be

3 reduced and that it doesn't expect all the persons that are mentioned in

4 this list to come over and give testimony. But I think we need to be more

5 articulate and see what the true position is.

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll call him right now, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you. Thanks. 30-minute break

8 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's continue. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman, for

11 turning up as requested.

12 Mr. Nicholls.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: I have no further questions. Sorry, I thought

14 about it over the break. I apologise to the witness for bringing you

15 back. I just want to say thank you very much, sir, for being with us here

16 for these last couple days.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination?

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have any questions either, which basically

20 means that your testimony comes to an end here. On behalf of the Tribunal

21 and on behalf of the Trial Chamber, and that's Judge Janu, Judge Taya, and

22 myself, I should like to thank you for coming over to give evidence,

23 testimony, in this case. The usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

24 And the officers of the Tribunal are available at your disposal should you

25 require any kind of assistance to enable you to return home. On our part,

Page 21459

1 apart from thanking you, we also wish you a safe journey back home.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you all for your cooperation.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let me try and explain, Mr. Ackerman, in

6 particular what is worrying me. These -- particularly yesterday, between

7 yesterday and today, I tried to go a little bit deeper into the lists of

8 witnesses you propose to bring over between now and the end of the week in

9 January, starting on the 12th.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I handed in a new list just a few

11 moments ago.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we're still talking of the week in January

13 starting on the 12th as being the last week that shows up on this

14 document, which basically covers 18 witnesses. If I look at the other

15 list that you had given us before, there are 65 witnesses. So we are left

16 with 43 witnesses that according to your own estimate, based on this

17 document now, the one with the short summary of what the subject of the

18 testimony. If I count it right, which I usually do, gives us -- would

19 give us 40 days of further testimony, which I find it hard to fit in with

20 your previous declaration that you think we should be in a position to

21 finish the case for the Defence towards the end of January.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I understand that that might be of

23 some concern. Unlike the Prosecution, you've given us --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I do not expect you -- Mr. Ackerman, I do not expect

25 you to go beyond what you think is the information that you can reveal now

Page 21460

1 because I do understand that you may have one or two or three witnesses

2 that you would like to bring over who are not ready to come over.

3 Similarly, you might come across other witnesses that you would like to

4 bring over which are not even listed here. But I think it's only fair

5 that we are put in a position where we know exactly where we stand because

6 there is no way, if you intend to stick to this list, that we can finish

7 the case for the Defence any time before April.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, unlike the Prosecution, you gave us a

9 discrete amount of time to put on the Defence case they were not similarly

10 restricted. But I took you at your word. I believe you were serious

11 about that. So I assure you that the only way we would go beyond that

12 would be for good cause, like the Prosecution did at the end of their

13 case. Clearly, we're not going to be call all 65 of those witnesses.

14 It's not going to happen.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: But on the other hand, I did not want to list

17 someone who might be a witness just because I didn't want to come under

18 criticism for sneaking witnesses in at the last minute I hadn't told

19 anybody about. So I assure you that we will do the best we can to keep

20 the witness flow going and that we will comply with your end date, unless

21 there is good reason not to by making application to you which you can

22 then decide. But in terms of this list, you must understand, even the

23 list I gave you today, is a very, very soft list in terms of these times

24 because we're still learning as we go how much time these various things

25 are going to take.

Page 21461

1 One of the things that occurs to me, and I'd be interested in your

2 thoughts about it, Your Honour, it occurs to me that by giving us a time

3 limit, you tend to put the Prosecution in a position to control the number

4 of witnesses we can bring because they can simply extend cross-examination

5 and take away time we could bring witnesses. So this might be an

6 appropriate case, because you have given us a deadline, to make an order

7 that the Prosecution cross-examine cannot exceed the direct exam because

8 otherwise they can simply control the amount of time we have to put on

9 witnesses by extending their cross-examinations. That has been done in a

10 number of cases, and I think it might be appropriate in this situation.

11 But the list I've given you today is the best guess we have, and

12 that might change as early as this afternoon. We may decide to bring

13 Witness Number 5 on Monday, 3 November, because it looks like Witness

14 Number 2 may not be able to arrive until that date, and therefore not take

15 the stand until the Tuesday of that week. So we might make that change.

16 In fact, it's fairly likely we will. It depends on whether -- we've got

17 some phone calls in the works right now to try to change some things. But

18 we don't know right now.

19 Otherwise, you know, the list is as good as I can make it right

20 now. It may be that the chances are really good we're going to be moving

21 people up on that list because I think we'll go a little faster than this

22 list contemplates. That's about all I can tell you right now. It's clear

23 that we're not going to call all 65 of those witnesses, but at this point

24 I haven't decided exactly which ones.

25 Now, I understand that Ms. Korner was concerned about the

Page 21462

1 municipalities that were not part of the indictment, that were removed

2 from the indictment -- the only reason, Your Honour, I'll say this again,

3 hopefully for the last time that we would call anybody from any of those

4 municipalities is if we think it's relevant in terms of explaining the

5 relationship between the ARK Crisis Staff and that municipality. We would

6 not under any circumstances call a witness from any of those

7 municipalities to deal with any crime-based issues at all. But I think a

8 witness like that could be relevant just from the standpoint of whether or

9 not the ARK Crisis Staff was significant in any decisions they made in

10 their municipality. So that's a possibility. But I think it's unlikely

11 we'll call anybody from any of those excluded municipalities and we'll

12 certainly -- you can see that we've already given the Prosecution notice

13 well into January, so if we're going to call somebody from any of those

14 municipalities, it would be at least January before that would happen.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's one thing. Let's clear up all, and then, of

16 course, I will give you the floor, both of you again.

17 And then there is this discrepancy which I'm sure you have an

18 explanation for between the duration, anticipated or expected duration of

19 the testimony of these witnesses, the ones which appear on your list until

20 the week in January starting on the 12th, and it's a discrepancy which

21 also is of some concern to me. For example, if we take Witness Number 17

22 who is scheduled to come over in the week of 10th of November. Initially

23 he was, according to this document, expected to -- his testimony was

24 expected to last half a day. Then in the list you gave us two days ago,

25 he's shown as testifying for two days. And in the list you handed a few

Page 21463

1 minutes ago, the updated list, he's now moved from 2 to 3 days.

2 The same applies to Witness Number 32, for example, on the week --

3 in the week of 25th November. He's expected to testify for three days.

4 Now he was anticipated to testify for one day. And we can go on. I mean,

5 Witness Number 50 in the first week of December. I mean, he was initially

6 indicated to come here and testify for half a day. Now it's two days, and

7 knowing who he is, based on previous testimonies and evidence, I think we

8 can easily expect him to be here for three or four days if not an entire

9 week. And we go on and on. So I think, Mr. Ackerman, we need to address

10 this problem a little bit with more - how should I say it - I know we can

11 never be as precise as we would like to be. And also because, for

12 example, today's witness is a classic example. We were anticipating him

13 to last one to two days. And basically if you add the two sessions

14 together, and that could happen with other witnesses as well. But the

15 problem that I have as the Presiding Judge and with the responsibility of

16 coordinating the entire proceedings, the problem is not to have weeks in

17 which we end up with no witnesses, say, on Wednesday. And not to have

18 weeks in which we think of being able of finishing the witnesses we have

19 present here in The Hague and finding us in the impossibility of doing so.

20 So we need to cooperate -- I'm not alleging that you're not

21 cooperating. Don't misunderstand me. But what I'm saying is we need to

22 be more precise. I need more information, if you can give it to us, which

23 would put me in a position to make sure at least on -- with sufficient

24 advance notice of one week to two weeks before where we stand so that if

25 we need to make adjustments, we'll be able to make those adjustments.

Page 21464

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, you've outlined what is a very difficult

2 problem. And you never know which side of that you should err on, whether

3 you should get too many witnesses here or not enough. And you never know

4 whether it's too many or not enough.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I have been a Defence witness myself, so you're not

6 telling me anything I do not know.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: This list I gave you today will probably be updated

8 with some frequency, and just rest assured that the time estimates that

9 are on this list are the ones that are currently valid, we think.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Now, whether that remains the case is another

12 question completely. But a lot depends on what goes on between now and a

13 week from now, for instance, as to how long we think some of these

14 witnesses might take. For instance, you mentioned Witness Number 17.

15 It's my recollection that I decided the amount of time that witness would

16 take a long time ago, and then since then we've had discussions with him

17 and we have exhibits that we decided we needed to use with him that tend

18 to expand the amount of time that he'll take and probably the amount of

19 time he will be examined. He was the head of that agency for relocation

20 and exchange, and so I think he's probably likely to be cross-examined at

21 some length also.

22 He may not take that full two or three days, and it may very well

23 be that we'll move Witness Number 29 into that week. It's almost certain

24 we will if we move Witness 5 into the week of 3 November. So my best

25 guess, Your Honour, is that this list is going to be dealt with faster

Page 21465

1 than what it shows, that we'll get through these witnesses faster than

2 this list indicates. And --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm glad to hear that. I find it difficult to

4 digest, to tell you the truth, Mr. Ackerman. Sorry for interrupting you

5 halfway. But the more I look at your first list, the one with the subject

6 of the testimony listed, if I look at, for example, Witness Number 20 on

7 the fourth page of that document, the very bottom of the page, I mean, you

8 anticipate two days for that gentleman here in the witness box. I

9 personally find it difficult to imagine, even imagine for a moment that

10 we'll finish with that gentleman --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know who that is.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 20.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't have that list here. You can say the name,

14 I'm sure.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Vojo Kupresanin.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it's almost certain that he will not come.

17 We can't find him.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So the same, I mean, I could mention others. My

19 rough guess, having presided over this trial for a year and a half, and

20 having learned a modest -- just a little bit of it, but I can't see, for

21 example, Witness Number 14 testifying for a day and a half only. Same

22 applies to Witness Number 21. You anticipate him to testify for half a

23 day. He was a major in the air force.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, 14 and 21, neither one are on this

25 current list.

Page 21466

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. Not this list, I'm worried about the other

2 list.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Don't worry about the other list. If you want to

4 worry, worry about this one. If the time comes that you need to worry

5 about the other list, I'll tell you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: But right now, you don't need to worry about it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: Can I take matters one by one.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One by one, yes.

11 MS. KORNER: Now, unfortunately I've forgotten what the first

12 matter Your Honour raised was.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The first matter is there are 43 other witnesses

14 listed here. I do agree and anticipate that we won't see the entire group

15 of 43 witnesses. But if they come, the conservative estimate of hours

16 needed for the testimony according to Mr. Ackerman himself is 40 hours.

17 So that's the first point.

18 MS. KORNER [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Private session]

Page 21467

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what was I going to say? I don't think

16 he will take anything like two to three days if he's just going to deal

17 with what she dealt with. But he deals with other things according to

18 the two-line summary, but until we get a full summary, so it's the problem

19 again of having proper summaries at some stage. So that's the first

20 matter.

21 The second matter in respect of limiting cross-examination,

22 Your Honour, we were limited when Your Honours decided to bring this case

23 to an end on examination --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no reason to question the -- or criticise the

25 way you have been conducting the cross-examination so far. We've only had

Page 21468

1 two witnesses, and so I don't think you need to address the matter.

2 MS. KORNER: We wouldn't --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If I ever come to the stage, my colleagues and

4 myself, to address you on this or to give you a directive, we'll -- but I

5 don't anticipate that. I don't think for a moment that I can accuse

6 either Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Cunningham in the course of the case of the

7 Prosecution of having abused of the "right" to cross-examine. And I

8 certainly have no reason to criticise you at this early stage.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, Your Honour, all I was going to say is I

10 would hope that Mr. Ackerman would know all of us well enough to know that

11 we would never deliberately seek to prevent him calling the evidence that

12 he wants to because of time limits.

13 Your Honour, then the Glamoc, Laktas, and Srbac witnesses,

14 Mr. Ackerman explained what he's just said, and I explained it's not as

15 simple as that because you cannot somehow see the interaction without

16 knowing what actually happened in the municipality. The reason I would

17 like to know, and it cannot be that difficult for Mr. Ackerman to let us

18 know whether these witnesses are going to be called or not by the

19 beginning of November, in fact, the week of the 3rd of November, is

20 because we propose to use the adjournment that Your Honour granted

21 Mr. Ackerman to make investigations. It's the best opportunity we have.

22 I do not want, as I said, to waste unnecessary money and resources if in

23 the end, it's one of the witnesses that we're going to drop. Mr.

24 Ackerman's going to drop.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I find that to be a reasonable

Page 21469

1 request. We don't need to go further with it.

2 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MS. KORNER: Finally, Your Honour, I hear what Mr. Ackerman says

5 on, for example, Vojo Kupresanin. For the less-major witnesses, of

6 course, we don't expect an answer, but if there are major witnesses on

7 Mr. Ackerman's list that he knows already he will not be calling, we would

8 be grateful to be informed because otherwise it's a lot of resources being

9 poured into something that's unnecessary.

10 Your Honour, were there any other matters?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you've covered them all. That's what I

12 think anyway.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't want to say it's a 100 per

14 cent certainty with regard to Kupresanin. We can't find him. He may --

15 believe he has been indicted and went into hiding. The Prosecution found

16 him at one point, and we thought he would be easy to find, but he's not.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we found him by sending a letter to the

18 Republika Srpska authorities together with a summons, but this was back in

19 2001 so I don't know what's happened since then.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And Veljko Kondic, do you expect to bring him over?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: That's about a 50/50 possibility, Your Honour. We

22 haven't decided on him yet.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I do have one last request. Does

25 Mr. Ackerman know yet who his experts will be for the military and police?

Page 21470

1 I don't think we were provided with those.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We're still waiting for those. We are still waiting

3 for those, in fact.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: We had a military expert all lined up. He had

5 agreed. We had gotten his resume. We were getting ready to notify

6 everyone. Then he sent an email saying that he had changed his mind and

7 wouldn't and has recommended a couple of other people who might be willing

8 to take his place. We're in the process of contacting them. That's about

9 as far as I can go. I don't know what the status is of the police expert.

10 I think we're still trying to find a particular person that we wanted to

11 use. Let me just check.

12 No, we have no news about that yet, Your Honour. I'll expedite

13 that and let everybody know by Monday.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

15 There is, for example, Witness Number 50, I cannot mention the

16 name because you yourself asked not to publicly disclose his name, and the

17 following witness, Number 51.

18 MS. KORNER: Number 50, Your Honour, is to be called the 1st of

19 December.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I want to make sure that he is still coming.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, he's still coming.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And 51 may also be one witness that will take longer

23 than you indicate one day. And 55?

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he will take longer than a day.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm pretty sure. It's almost common sense that he

Page 21471

1 will. 55 --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Again, you're worrying about the list that I told

3 you not to worry about. If you'll tell me who those people are, I may be

4 able to give you some information. Can we go into private session for a

5 minute.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can go into private session, yes.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: My instinct tells me to -- I'm taking your word not

12 to worry for the time being on the additional list. What I am asking of

13 you, Mr. Ackerman, is to continue this exchange of information on the

14 situation as it pertains particularly in the next couple of weeks, which

15 would enable not only the Prosecution to know exactly how to prepare, but

16 also us to know -- to be in a better position to plan for the

17 after-January period in particular.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, you can I think very safely plan

19 that the case will end when you decreed it will end, if not before, and it

20 will probably be before. So I know you worry about things like that. I'd

21 like to relieve you as much as I can because worry is not good for you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You will understand it's not a question -- I'm not

23 the kind of person who is going to die because of worrying. I can assure

24 you. But on the other hand, you will understand that in my position as

25 Presiding Judge, and the two Judges who sit with me in this trial, we are

Page 21472

1 also ourselves accountable. And if I have two documents which, taken

2 together, in no way can convince anyone that the case for the Defence

3 could be finished by the end of January, I am duty-bound to ask for

4 explanations, which I did this morning. And I am glad that you have given

5 me the explanations that I needed, so that neither of us, or none of us

6 can be exposed to any criticism later on. All right?

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I make a suggestion. If

8 Mr. Ackerman has problems in finding witnesses, it may be we're able to

9 assist through our offices in Banja Luka. And certainly if he wants, we

10 can make inquiries ourselves as to where Mr. Kupresanin is.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 So that is the end. So next week, this coming week, we start with

13 the cross-examination of the military expert. We'll be sitting, I think,

14 in the morning. Can you check for me.

15 MS. KORNER: Any chance for another Court? I think -- doesn't

16 Milosevic get three days off next week or something?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, let's see -- no, because -- Monday, 27th, when

18 are we sitting?

19 THE REGISTRAR: In the morning in Courtroom II, all week.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Then do I have the sentencing hearing in Nikolic in

21 the afternoon?

22 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. And that goes for the entire week.

24 Next week I will be sitting with you in the morning, and then an entire

25 sitting in the afternoon in another case. So it will be a tiring week.

Page 21473

1 But that needs to be done. So I would appreciate your full cooperation

2 because it will be a very tiring week for myself.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in terms of some of these issues that

4 keep rising with regard to the Defence case, I do need to -- for you to

5 really understand as clearly as I can make it that we do not have the

6 personnel necessary to do everything that needs to be done. We have to

7 prioritise. And right now, our priority is the exhibit list. And that's

8 what we're doing. And because of that, the witness summaries aren't

9 getting done. We have to drop something when we have to do one thing. We

10 just don't have the people to do all of this.

11 Our interns are even working more hours than they're supposed to

12 be working for us to try to help us get all these tasks done. I assure

13 you we're doing the best we can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate you have difficulties, Mr. Ackerman.

15 I'm not saying that you don't. The moment I convince myself and Judge

16 Janu and Judge Taya decide to agree with me that you are taking advantage,

17 then I will step down on you. But I have no reason to believe that you

18 are taking advantage or that not making available the entire list of

19 documents at the present moment is abusive or -- anyway, I'm not happy

20 with it because I still believe that you have had a year and a half in

21 which to decide at least on a good number of documents that you had in

22 mind or that you intended to make use of. But as I said before, I have

23 been Defence counsel myself for a few years, and I do realise that in any

24 trial, the situation changes from sometimes one hour to -- one moment to

25 the next and that some documents that you had in mind of using, you don't

Page 21474

1 need any further. And others that you would like to use, you know where

2 they are, but are not readily available. So I do know that, and I

3 appreciate that.

4 But on the other hand, the situation is -- I look at it also from

5 another point of view. You keep stressing the point that there is no

6 equality of arms, no parity of arms between the Prosecution and the

7 Defence. And possibly to an extent, in some areas, definitely the

8 Prosecution is much better equipped than any Defence team can be. But

9 that's not the beginning or the end of the story. There is the question

10 of disclosure of documents. And until and unless the Defence opens its

11 archives also to the Prosecutor, which can be done only in certain limited

12 cases, there's no reciprocity, and definitely the Defence is in a better

13 position than the Prosecution is from that point of view.

14 So I don't fancy at all the idea of depriving the Prosecution from

15 something that they are entitled to according to the rules. In order to

16 accept that, there must be special circumstances. And my first duty would

17 be, if there are special circumstances, to ask you to make a greater

18 effort to try and bring everything in line with the requirements of the

19 rules. It's not my style to impose anything until I really feel that the

20 moment has come when I do have to. And I don't think the moment has come

21 as yet. But I ask for your cooperation, Mr. Ackerman, because this is

22 something that I share the concerns of the Prosecution about. I mean, I

23 don't want anyone to accuse me later on of having deliberately closed a

24 blind eye on this matter, especially if the Prosecution at any particular

25 stage in time, now or later, stand up and suggests that they are being

Page 21475

1 prejudiced by the nondisclosure of the list. So I would honestly like you

2 to address and give this matter your earlier attention. And I am glad I

3 heard you say you are giving it priority.

4 Having said that, is there anything else we need to address, Ms.

5 Korner? Mr. Ackerman?

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we spoke to Mr. Ackerman, and I

7 understand he's going to email his list to us, provisional list for

8 documents for Mr. Brown, and then maybe about -- some more added for the

9 weekend. But that's the one thing we asked for.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: According to you, you are put in the position where

11 you can do your work.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this hasn't arisen, and I'm not

13 pre-empting. I raised the matters Tuesday or Wednesday because I was

14 concerned that we'd only had a sudden list. But I understand Mr.

15 Ackerman's -- we've spoken together, and he is working on it. Certainly

16 I'm not taking any --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest you keep discussing these as we go along,

18 these matters as we go along. Yes, thank you.

19 Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was working on the list since early

21 this morning. I think I'm up to Exhibit Number 255 or something like

22 that. I can send that list to the Prosecutor at any time but I don't

23 think it's of much value without also having the documents, and that's

24 where the bottleneck is right now. We have to make ten copies of each

25 one, and that's an enormous task, but that's what we're doing.

Page 21476

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's all for the day and for the week.

2 Tomorrow we are not sitting as you know. We will reconvene Monday with

3 the cross-examination of the military expert. I don't know which

4 courtroom we are sitting in in the morning on Monday.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom II.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: This one again. And in the afternoon, we are

7 sitting in the sentencing hearing in which Court? Courtroom I, all right.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: If Milosevic is only two days next week, can we

9 take that courtroom?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: If it is at all possible, yes. Kelly, is that

11 possible?

12 THE REGISTRAR: I'll have to check.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If it is possible, we'll take Courtroom I. It's

14 much better than this.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Especially with the expert witness because it's

16 going to be a very paper-heavy case and there are going to be binders all

17 over the place.

18 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, there will be somebody present for

19 the military expert's testimony.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I have already decreed that.

21 MS. KORNER: So Your Honour, we will need more space if at all

22 possible on Monday and Tuesday.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. So we stand adjourned until

24 Monday, 9.00 in the morning. Thank you.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.50 a.m.

Page 21477

1 To be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of

2 October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.