Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23465

1 Wednesday, 10 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case Number IT-99-36-T,

9 The Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, summary of this witness, Mr. Cunningham, was

11 this witness familiar with Radoslav Brdjanin or not?

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He is, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

14 So, Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow the proceedings in a language that

17 you can understand?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Ms. Korner, appearances for the

20 Prosecution.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Julian Nicholls with

22 Joanna Korner and Denise Gustin.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you all.

24 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

Page 23466

1 I'm with David Cunningham, Aleksandar Vujic, and Kelli Serratt.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. We have a new witness. There are no

3 protective measures that I know of or that I have been made aware of.

4 Good morning to you, sir, and welcome to this Tribunal and to

5 The Hague on a nice warm day. You are about to start giving evidence.

6 And before you do so, our Rules require that you make a solemn

7 declaration, a solemn declaration stating that in the course of your

8 testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

9 the truth. The text is on the sheet of paper that you have just been

10 given. Please read that aloud, and that would be your solemn undertaking

11 with us. Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Golic, you are going to be first asked a

17 series of questions by Mr. Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for

18 Mr. Brdjanin, who is the accused in this case, as you know. He will then

19 be followed by Mr. Nicholls, I take it, who is appearing for the

20 Prosecution in this case, a member of the team of the Prosecution.

21 You are a Defence witness, but that does not mean that you are

22 here to testify in favour of the accused and against the Prosecution. You

23 are here to tell us the truth. So in other words, you do not have a right

24 to distinguish between the Prosecution and the Defence. Your obligation

25 is to answer all questions truthfully and fully irrespective of where they

Page 23467

1 come.

2 Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Mr. Ackerman:

7 Q. Good morning, sir, your name is Naum Golic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell the Chamber where you live.

10 A. In Banja Luka, Koste Jacica Street, number 2.

11 Q. What is your date of birth?

12 A. The 30th of June 1971.

13 Q. Are you married?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To whom are you married?

16 A. Suzana.

17 Q. Is your wife a Serb?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What is her ethnicity?

20 A. She is not. She is a Croat.

21 Q. Do you have children?

22 A. Yes, one.

23 Q. Are you working these days? And if so, what are you doing?

24 A. Yes. I work for an insurance company, and I own a small shop.

25 Q. Have you -- I'm going back now to the 1990s or earlier even maybe.

Page 23468

1 Did you ever serve in the army?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you tell the Chamber when and where you served in the army.

4 A. I served in 1989 in Zagreb, Banja Luka, then back to Zagreb, and

5 then finally in Varazdin.

6 Q. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the SDS?

7 A. No. I have never been a member.

8 Q. Starting with 1991, were you in Banja Luka through the whole year

9 of 1991, or not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what were conditions like in Banja Luka during the year 1991?

12 A. There was quite a bit of tension between the different sides.

13 People simply didn't know what would happen because the war had already

14 begun in Croatia and Slovenia prior to that. There was tension. I'm not

15 sure how I should explain that. There was a feeling among the people.

16 Tensions were high, and the living standards were low. There was a lot of

17 tension, and many people were unemployed.

18 Q. We'll go into that in a little while. I want to ask you, were you

19 mobilised during that period at all?

20 A. In 1991, month of September.

21 Q. And where were you mobilised to? Where did you go?

22 A. I was transferred from the Kozara barracks to the Stari Gradiska

23 barracks, which is in present-day Croatia.

24 Q. What kind of a unit were you assigned to there?

25 A. The JNA. It was still everyone's army back then.

Page 23469

1 Q. But were you in any particular kind of a company or kind of a

2 unit, or was it just an infantry company or what?

3 A. It was some sort of a signals unit with the 1st Krajina Corps.

4 Q. Were there any non-Serbs serving in that unit?

5 A. Yes. My superior.

6 Q. And -- your commander, you mean?

7 A. The commander, yes. The company commander.

8 Q. What was his ethnicity?

9 A. He is a Croat. His name is Josip, and I cannot remember his last

10 name now.

11 Q. Did he continue to serve in that capacity all the time that you

12 were with that unit?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there other persons in the unit of non-Serb ethnicity other

15 than your commander?

16 A. Yes, there were.

17 Q. Did there come a time, then, when you left the army and took a

18 different position?

19 A. No, I asked to be transferred to the police.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness's other microphone, please,

21 kindly be turned on.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher.


24 Q. When was it you asked to be transferred to the police?

25 A. In 1992, I just got married, and it was on account of that that I

Page 23470

1 requested a transfer to the public security station in Banja Luka.

2 Q. And was that transfer granted?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The transcript reflects that you said yes. So then you went from

5 Stara Gradiska back to Banja Luka.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that was -- what month of 1992 did you return to Banja Luka?

8 A. In 1992.

9 Q. But what month? Do you remember?

10 A. April, May, June, thereabouts. I can't remember the exact date.

11 Q. What kind of an impact was the war situation having on the economy

12 in Banja Luka? Do you know?

13 A. A disastrous one. The economy had ceased to operate. At that

14 time, you could no longer move about, export or import the basic supplies

15 or raw materials. So the economy was in shambles.

16 Q. Did you know people who lost their jobs during 1992?

17 A. Yes. Especially in production companies.

18 Q. And why were people losing their jobs? Did it have to do with the

19 economy?

20 A. Mostly, yes, with the economy. 99 per cent, I'd say at the time

21 due to the state of the economy because the biggest, most important

22 companies in Banja Luka had ceased to operate.

23 Q. Did -- the issue of whether or not you would lose a job, did that

24 depend on your ethnicity?

25 A. Not to the extent that I was aware, or not at that time.

Page 23471

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise for interrupting. Could the ELMO be

3 moved, please. I'm just having some difficulty seeing the witness

4 testify.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please. Thank you. Wait because you're

6 pulling the wires. See if you can turn it. Is that better,

7 Mr. Nicholls?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


11 Q. Were any members of your family dismissed from employment?

12 A. Yes, my sister.

13 Q. And I take it your sister is a Serb?

14 A. Yes. The company had ceased to operate. There was nothing to

15 do. It was the Vita Minka [phoen] factory in Banja Luka.

16 Q. How about from your wife's family? Any members of your wife's

17 family dismissed from their jobs?

18 A. No, no close relation. At least not the ones I knew.

19 Q. We've heard a lot in this case about non-Serbs leaving Banja Luka

20 during this time. Do you know why non-Serbs were leaving Banja Luka?

21 A. Well, the economic situation was like that. It was as simple as

22 that. People were tense. The war had already begun. People were walking

23 about town armed. This was a situation that proved very difficult to

24 control. And there wasn't much safety. But again, the greatest factor

25 was the economic situation. There were no salaries in Banja Luka to be

Page 23472

1 paid. The inflation rate was so high that you couldn't even afford to buy

2 a box of matches for your salary.

3 Q. Were Serbs leaving also?

4 A. Yes. Quite a number of younger ones, but mostly they were leaving

5 for Serbia since it was difficult to get the appropriate documents to go

6 anywhere else. And then it was through the embassies that the Serbs tried

7 to go to third countries.

8 Q. How about in your wife's family? Did members of your wife's

9 family leave the Banja Luka area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which members of her family left?

12 A. Her mother and her father had exchanged their flat for someone

13 else's that was in Zagreb. That was in July or August. They moved

14 there. My mother-in-law worked for Jelsingrad to the very last day. She

15 stopped working maybe seven days before she moved. And my wife's father

16 had already retired. There was an uncle who had obtained documents to

17 travel to America, and they had exchanged their house in exchange for one

18 in Daruvar as well as her grandparents. And there was an aunt who had

19 exchanged her flat for one in Rijeka in Croatia. That was back in 1993.

20 Q. You said that your wife's mother continued working up until just a

21 few days before they left. I take it she was --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- Croat?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You told the Chamber that they -- your wife's family, her mother

Page 23473

1 and father, exchanged their property with someone in Zagreb. Did that

2 exchange --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As far as you know, that exchange worked out okay?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. They were happy with it?

7 A. Mostly.

8 Q. At the time they left Banja Luka, did the authorities confiscate

9 any property from them, any money, any valuables, anything like that? Was

10 any of their property confiscated?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did they leave because someone forced them to leave, or did they

13 leave because they wanted to leave?

14 A. I can only talk about my family. I'm telling you about my

15 mother-in-law. She set up a company in Croatia, and she just wanted to go

16 there. She was trying to get the appropriate documents to set up a

17 company in Zagreb, and she still owns the company.

18 Q. All these questions I'm asking you about your mother-in-law and

19 father-in-law, did they leave because they had heard politicians make

20 speeches of any kind? Did that frighten them and cause them to leave?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I now want to talk to you, Mr. Golic, about your work on the

23 police force. You say you came to Banja Luka in March, April, May,

24 something like that, of 1992, when you were transferred to the police?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23474

1 Q. Had you done police work before that time?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you undergo any kind of training?

4 A. Yes. You needed to have completed your secondary education, and

5 then there was a brief course where you were trained in the basics of your

6 service.

7 Q. And then did you begin to work as a police officer or what kind of

8 work were you assigned to do?

9 A. I was immediately transferred to the security platoon. We

10 provided security for persons and buildings.

11 Q. To your knowledge, during that period of 1992, were the police

12 making any distinction in their investigations between whether the victim

13 of a crime was a Serb or a non-Serb?

14 A. Not to my knowledge.

15 Q. I want to talk to you now about Radoslav Brdjanin. You know

16 Mr. Brdjanin, don't you?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And when did you first meet Mr. Brdjanin?

19 A. In October or November 1992.

20 Q. And what was the occasion for your meeting him? How did that

21 happen?

22 A. I had been assigned to guard his house, and then his wife invited

23 us in, and Radoslav Brdjanin arrived, so that's when I met him.

24 Q. Why were you assigned to guard his house? Do you know?

25 A. His car had been broken into two or three times, and his

Page 23475

1 windscreen had been stolen. A gas bottle from the balcony or something.

2 I'm not sure.

3 Q. And who was it that made the decision that you should be assigned

4 there as security?

5 A. The chief of the Security Services Centre, they made assessments

6 of which buildings had to be secured, and then you would receive a

7 document or an order, if you like, detailing your task.

8 Q. To your knowledge, what was Mr. Brdjanin's position at the time

9 you were assigned to security at his house?

10 A. The deputy of the autonomous region. Truth to tell, I wasn't even

11 aware of that back then. Or perhaps he was a minister. I really can't

12 say.

13 Q. Okay. When you first met Mr. Brdjanin and told him why you were

14 there, to guard his house, to be security, did he accept that? Was that

15 something that he wanted and had asked for? Or do you know?

16 A. He said he didn't need security to begin with. We weren't sent to

17 guard him personally, but rather the building itself, the house. As far

18 as I know, that was the reason that we had been sent there.

19 Q. You said that his wife had invited you inside. Was that --

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Was that what was supposed to happen, or not?

22 A. It was completely up to them.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's normal in that part of the world, Mr. Ackerman.

24 I can confirm that to you. In fact, you would be considered snobbish and

25 not respectful if you don't.

Page 23476

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have to tell you that even in England

2 it happens. Not just that part of the world.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so.


5 Q. Were you working -- was that a -- was that a 24-hour a day

6 proposition, guarding that house, or was it just a nighttime guarding, or

7 how did -- how was that organised?

8 A. From 22 minutes past midnight to 6.00 in the morning. It was

9 nighttime duty.

10 Q. And was there another officer assigned as well as you? Did you

11 take turns, or how did that work?

12 A. Yes, two a shift, just to keep it more interesting because it can

13 get a bit boring during the night.

14 Q. Okay. In connection with this after you had met Mr. Brdjanin, did

15 you get to know him reasonably well?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you get to know his family?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell the Judges about his family. Does he have

20 children?

21 A. Yes, he has two daughters, a wife, and a grandchild.

22 Q. Do you know the names of his daughters?

23 A. Jelena and Milka. His wife's name is Mira.

24 Q. And how old are his daughters?

25 A. Jelena, I believe, is 19, and little Milka, 25. I can't be sure,

Page 23477

1 however.

2 Q. And one of them apparently has a child that is Mr. Brdjanin's

3 grandson?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know how old he is?

6 A. Three months, four months maybe.

7 Q. How about education? What kind of work? What kind of work --

8 what kind of education have the girls got?

9 A. Jelena was a secondary school student, but now she is studying in

10 Belgrade. And Milka had completed an actors' academy, an acting academy.

11 Q. And is she working as an actress?

12 A. Yes, she is.

13 Q. In this process of getting to know Mr. Brdjanin's family, did you

14 learn about any of his close relatives, brothers, sisters,

15 brother-in-laws, sister-in-laws, that sort of thing? Did you ever get to

16 know any of them, meet any of them, anything of that nature?

17 A. Yes, yes, I had. On a number of occasions.

18 Q. How many brothers does Mr. Brdjanin to your knowledge?

19 A. Two.

20 Q. And are both of them married?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell the Chamber about their wives?

23 A. Well, his elderly brother Ilija, his wife is Croatian. And they

24 live in Banja Luka, and they lived there throughout the war. His younger

25 brother, Nebojsa, he was a JNA officer in Ljubljana. He was transferred

Page 23478

1 to Belgrade, and his wife is also a Croat.

2 Q. Do you know what happened to Nebojsa during the war in Croatia?

3 Do you know anything about that?

4 A. I know that he was attached to the army. He was an active officer

5 in the army. When the army was withdrawing from Slovenia and Zagreb, he

6 then left to Belgrade. Then he left the army and he got a job in a firm.

7 Q. All right. Have you been at Mr. Brdjanin's home for social

8 occasions of any kind, parties, things of that nature?

9 A. Yes, I have. Yes.

10 Q. What kind of occasions would these be?

11 A. There were celebrations, the Slava birthday, something like that.

12 Q. And were you invited there along with your wife to parties like

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were there other people in attendance besides your wife that were

16 non-Serb at these parties?

17 MR. NICHOLLS: It might be helpful to get a time frame that we're

18 talking about.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay, all right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

21 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, I'll do that.

23 Q. Did you attend a Slava at Mr. Brdjanin's house in 1992, 1993,

24 1994, any of those years?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 23479

1 Q. Can you tell us as you sit here today how many? Which of those

2 years you attended Slavas or all of them?

3 A. I believe 1993 and 1994.

4 Q. Other than your wife, were there other persons in attendance at

5 these Slavas who were non-Serb?

6 A. Yes, the wives of his brothers, and he had also friends who had

7 mixed marriages.

8 Q. Do you know the names of any of those people?

9 A. Aco, and Srebrenka.

10 Q. And Aco?

11 A. A Serb.

12 Q. And married to?

13 A. A Muslim.

14 Q. How about his neighbours? Did he have any neighbours that were

15 non-Serb that were invited to those parties?

16 A. Yes. He had a neighbour who was a Muslim named Stacic [as

17 interpreted]. I can't remember his name. He was a prominent person. I

18 don't know.

19 Q. Did you observe the relationship between Mr. Brdjanin and this

20 Muslim neighbour? Did they seem to get along well?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did they socialise together other than at these Slavas?

23 A. Yes. As far as I know, I know that his wife would come and drink

24 coffee with the neighbour.

25 Q. Do you know if Mr. Brdjanin has any relatives who are married to

Page 23480

1 Muslims?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. During the time that you were working there at the house, was

4 Mr. Brdjanin making trips anywhere?

5 A. Well, as far as I know, he only travelled to Pale. It is where

6 the assembly meetings were held.

7 Q. And did you ever make that trip to Pale with him?

8 A. Yes, on two or three occasions in order to see Pale. I've never

9 been there before.

10 Q. So you just went to see Pale and to just basically keep him

11 company on the trip?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the course of those trips and other times, too, did you have

14 occasion to have conversations with Mr. Brdjanin?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Were you able to determine results of those conversations what

17 kind of an attitude he had toward non-Serb peoples?

18 A. Well, he acted normally. He was never underestimating the others

19 when speaking in this context.

20 Q. Did you ever hear him, in any of your conversations with him, make

21 any kind of a derogatory remark about Serb people -- about non-Serb

22 people? I'm sorry.

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. The security job that you had at Mr. Brdjanin's house, you've

25 already told us, was just a nighttime job. Were there other politicians

Page 23481

1 in Banja Luka who had security assigned to them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was that just night, or were there some who had security 24

4 hours?

5 A. Yes, there were others who had it 24 hours a day. They had

6 security and a driver.

7 Q. And a driver, did you say?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who were the people who you know had 24-hour security and had a

10 driver.

11 A. The president of the municipality; the chief of the public

12 security centre; and the president of SDS.

13 Q. Do you know the names of those people?

14 A. No. Zupljanin, Stojan, the chief of the centre of social

15 security. Then the chief of the municipality, Predrag Radic.

16 Q. And how about the SDS person?

17 A. And the president of SDS was Vukic. I can't remember his first

18 name.

19 Q. Did Mr. Brdjanin have a driver assigned to him?

20 A. [No Interpretation]

21 Q. So there was no official car and no official driver --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman, because the interpreters

23 did not get his reply. I heard him say "no," if I heard him well.

24 But please, could you answer the question that was put to you by

25 Mr. Ackerman again. Did Mr. Brdjanin have a driver assigned to him? What

Page 23482

1 did you answer? What was your reply to that question?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'll object to the question which we can see on

4 the transcript which was starting. It's being phrased in a leading

5 manner. Unless I'm wrong, he hasn't yet spoken about whether there was an

6 official car. He should just be asked whether there was one.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


9 Q. Was Mr. Brdjanin assigned any kind of an official car at any time

10 that you know about?

11 A. An official car from the SUP, no.

12 Q. When he would go to assembly meetings in Pale, how would he get

13 there? What car would he take?

14 A. He drove his Toyota or took the car of the Ministry of

15 Construction. They had only one car. But usually he drove his own

16 Toyota.

17 Q. I want to ask you just your sense of Mr. Brdjanin's power in the

18 Krajina or in Republika Srpska. Do you think he was a very powerful man?

19 A. No. No, he was not.

20 Q. Did you ever ask him for any kind of help?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Explain to the Chamber what kind of help you asked him for and

23 what happened.

24 A. When my father in 1995 -- he was operated in 1993 and he was

25 retired at the time, and in 1995 he was mobilised. We attempted, I myself

Page 23483

1 and Radoslav, through the chief of the military department not to mobilise

2 him because he was already 57, 58 years old at the time. But we didn't

3 succeed, and he was sent to Gradiska.

4 Q. Do you know if any members of Mr. Brdjanin's family were mobilised

5 in the army?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. You already talked about his brother Nebojsa who was in the JNA.

8 Anybody else?

9 A. Yes. His sister's both sons, one of them was even killed. Then

10 Ilija's daughter as a physician, she was mobilised, and she worked for two

11 or three years near Brcko in a hospital.

12 Q. Do you know if the relatives of prominent people during this time

13 served in the army on the front, or did the prominent people do things to

14 keep their relatives out of those kind of harmful situations? Do you know

15 about that?

16 A. Well, the majority of them were studying in Serbia, from 18 to 40

17 years of age.

18 Q. Do you recall a time in 1993 when the army came to Mr. Brdjanin's

19 house?

20 A. In front of the house, yes.

21 Q. Can you tell the Chamber about that and explain as much as you

22 know what that was about.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I guess I'd ask the time in 1993 and what the

Page 23484

1 relevance is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell you, September, Mr. Nicholls.

3 Was it September, Mr. Ackerman?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We have had evidence on this. We've heard evidence

6 on this, and even -- either you or the Defence, that I don't remember,

7 tendered documents referring during Mr. Radic's testimony. And his

8 involvement as such in trying to neutralise what was supposed to have

9 taken place or what was supposed to take place.

10 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


12 Q. Do you know why they came to Mr. Brdjanin's house?

13 A. Not exactly. They wanted to search the house and take them to the

14 station to interrogate them. That was the explanation they gave.

15 Q. When you say "take them to the station to interrogate them," who

16 would that have been?

17 A. Probably it meant his wife and him because the children were

18 minors. I think that at the time, Brdjanin was at Pale, and Mira was the

19 only one at home.

20 Q. Were they successful in arresting her and taking her in for

21 interrogation?

22 A. No. We didn't allow them to enter even the entrance. We wanted

23 to be shown a warrant for that, and they didn't have it. And that was in

24 the morning, 5.00 a.m., 5.30 a.m.

25 Q. And so you basically confronted them, and they backed down after

Page 23485

1 you had confronted them and demanded a warrant?

2 A. Yes. They said that they would go to the chief and find the paper

3 and bring the paper.

4 Q. Did they ever come back, then?

5 A. No. Maybe they did, but you see, as it was dawn, we took Mira and

6 the children to their friends outside Banja Luka, to Stojan's, for a few

7 days until the situation calmed down.

8 Q. So you took steps to protect them from this army group, I take it,

9 then? Is that what you're saying?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's all questions I have.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And with regard to this, this is not

14 exactly the details that we've heard -- were not in the article that I was

15 referring to that was tendered during the testimony of Mr. Radic. There

16 were other details, but anyway...

17 You've finished, Mr. Ackerman, I take it.

18 Can you take up the cross-examination right away?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with the cross-examination.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

22 Q. You live in Banja Luka now?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you born in Banja Luka?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23486

1 Q. Other than your military service, you lived your whole life in

2 Banja Luka?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that's where your family is from as well, I take it. Your

5 parents are still there?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell me where in Banja Luka you grew up, what

8 neighbourhood.

9 A. Starcevica Ada. I have an apartment in Ada, and in Starcevica, a

10 house. So I lived in both of these two neighbourhoods.

11 Q. Now, is Ada predominantly or was it in the early 1990s

12 predominantly a Serb neighbourhood?

13 A. Half/half. In Ada, you had a majority of Romas living there, but

14 on the other side of the hill.

15 Q. All right. Now, your present employment, you said you own some

16 kind of a shop. Is that right? What kind of a shop is it that you own in

17 Banja Luka?

18 A. Flowers, a flower shop.

19 Q. And I didn't catch it exactly. You also work for an insurance

20 company or something of that nature?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. What's your job there? Does that have anything to do with

23 security work still?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What do you do there at the insurance company?

Page 23487

1 A. Insurance of property, corporate insurance. You see, we work on

2 evaluating the worth of the firm, and on the basis of that estimate, then

3 we determine what the insurance would be.

4 Q. Okay. Could you very briefly just run down for me the

5 employment -- the different kinds of work you've done since, say, the end

6 of 1992.

7 Let me do it this way: When did you leave the police? When did

8 you stop being a policeman?

9 A. Yes. Yes, since I stopped being a policeman.

10 Q. No, when did you stop being a policeman? What month and year, if

11 you remember?

12 A. In 1995, when the Dayton Accords were signed. As I didn't want to

13 become an active member of the police, the reserve forces were then fired.

14 Q. After 1992, between that and when you stopped being a reserve

15 member of the police, do you have any other kind of jobs, occupations,

16 businesses, any other activities like that?

17 A. No. From 1992 till 1995, no, I did not.

18 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: Your name is relatively rare,

19 wouldn't you say? It's not a common name, Naum Golic.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Were you ever a member of the special unit, the Banja Luka CSB

22 special unit, special detachment?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. I just want to show you this document. This is a new one we've

25 found, and we can give out our exhibit list actually. This is ERN

Page 23488

1 00574836.

2 Sir, this isn't any kind of trick question or anything like that.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Before you ask any questions, could I see the

4 document?


6 Q. While Mr. Ackerman's reading that, I'll just say this is a CSB

7 Banja Luka note from the 14th of June 1993 requesting information on

8 certain police members.

9 If you just read that to yourself, sir, tell me when you've read

10 it.

11 A. I've read it.

12 Q. All right. Is that, if you know, you being referred to in this

13 document, the Naum Golic who it states was wounded?

14 A. Yes, but I was not in the special brigade of police. I was in the

15 reserve forces. And for 15 days I was in the areas where the fighting was

16 going on, and then a month on the territory of CSB Banja Luka.

17 Q. Who was the commander of your unit? What was his name?

18 A. I believe at the time when I was in Obadovac that his name was

19 Stojan Davidovic. But I'm not sure.

20 Q. All right. So you were never under the command of Ljuban Ecim?

21 A. Heavens forbid it. No, I was not.

22 Q. Why do you say "heavens forbid" as if that would be a terrible

23 thing?

24 A. Well, that unit was constantly in the combat operation zones, and

25 I was once in Obadovac and once near Olovo, and that was all during these

Page 23489

1 three or four years.

2 Q. All right. And we can move on, but that unit, the special unit,

3 wasn't just involved in combat operations; they were involved in a lot of

4 criminal activity as well, weren't they? You know that, don't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you just - best you can - give me the dates of when you were

7 actually in combat and where you were. You've already said Obadovac.

8 A. Yes. I cannot give you the date. Obadovac, near Brcko, and

9 Srednje, near Olovo. Maybe I could give you the year, but the dates, no.

10 Q. That's okay. Was that the only time you were involved in combat

11 activity after you'd returned to Banja Luka?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, this document, will it be an exhibit;

14 and if so, what will its number be?

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think it's a particularly crucial document,

16 but I'll admit it as P2717.

17 Q. Now, shortly after you returned to Banja Luka, maybe a couple

18 months after you returned, you started working a security detail for

19 Mr. Brdjanin.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where was Mr. Brdjanin's house then? When you first went to that

22 house, where in Banja Luka was he living?

23 A. It was an apartment in the local commune Starcevica, on the

24 opposite side of Starcevica where I live.

25 Q. When you say it was an apartment, what kind of a place was it?

Page 23490

1 Can you describe it, a little bit, the size of it, the grounds? Was it a

2 nice neighbourhood? Just describe where he lived.

3 A. It was a three-room apartment. These are smaller buildings with

4 four apartments. And when the neighbours -- we would greet all the

5 neighbours.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Ackerman asked you about what Banja Luka was like in 1992

7 after you came home from Croatia. And you talked about the economic

8 conditions. And you started to talk about how there were armed groups.

9 But the fact is that Banja Luka in 1992, in the summer, was a very

10 dangerous place. Correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. There were bombs going off at businesses almost every night?

13 A. People were walking about armed, those who had arrived from the

14 front were walking around with rifles. And who could have told them,

15 "leave those rifles at home"? You know, as soon as they saw them walking

16 by, everyone just ducked. There were people who were drunk and who were

17 walking around armed.

18 Q. There were bombs going off at businesses almost every night.

19 Correct?

20 A. Not quite every night, but...

21 Q. Three times a week then? Three or four?

22 A. Yes, thereabouts. Well, people didn't move about very much. I

23 wasn't aware exactly what was happening in Budzak. There was a shortage

24 of fuel, and people moved about as little as possible.

25 Q. Let me stop you. You're doing fine. I just want to explain when

Page 23491

1 I ask a question, if possible, just answer the question I asked you. All

2 I was asking you about was the frequency of businesses being bombed, not

3 about whether people were moving about.

4 In addition, there were shootings at night, people shooting in the

5 air, shooting recklessly --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He hasn't answered your first question as yet,

7 Mr. Nicholls.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: I thought he had when he said "yes, thereabouts,"

9 to explosions three or four times a week.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Go ahead.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: -- confirmed.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I can see it, Mr. Nicholls.


14 Q. And there were also shootings at night which scared people.

15 Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Predominantly, the population which bore the brunt of these

18 attacks and intimidation was the Muslim population, the Bosniak

19 population. Isn't that right?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I object to that. He has not testified there

21 were any attacks and intimidation. He's testified there were gunshots and

22 explosions.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Rephrase your question, Mr. Nicholls. It's easier.


25 Q. The people who were subject to having their businesses bombed, the

Page 23492

1 people were predominantly Bosniaks. Correct? You know that? You were a

2 policeman then.

3 A. There were Serb facilities, too.

4 Q. I didn't say that no Serb business ever burned down in 1992. The

5 population which suffered the most of these bombings of businesses,

6 businesses being burned down was Bosniak. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the same thing, the shooting was designed --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters didn't hear the witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say something? Because the interpreters

11 didn't hear you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only Bosniaks. The gentleman

13 from the Prosecution said Muslims, but there were Croats, too. More of

14 the businesses were owned by Croats in point of fact, where I come from.


16 Q. Thank you. I think we can agree, then, that it was mostly

17 non-Serb businesses which were burned down or bombed during the summer of

18 1992. Right?

19 A. [No Interpretation]

20 Q. You answered the question, and you said yes --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because, again, try to speak into the

22 microphones, please, because sometimes the interpreters cannot hear you.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, for some reason his left microphone

24 has now been turned off. I don't know why both microphones aren't on.

25 They usually are.

Page 23493

1 MR. NICHOLLS: I noticed that as well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, my attention is being drawn -- okay.

3 Perhaps, you could also ask him, Mr. Nicholls, while we are at

4 this whether there was a time when the predominance of these bombings or

5 whatever was directed at Croat businesses and whether that remained always

6 the same, or whether there was a shift later on at any given time. In

7 other words, whether Muslim business became the predominant target.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. But if I can, first the --

9 although he answered yes to the last question, it's still not on the

10 transcript.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start from there.


13 Q. Witness, let me read you this question again. You answered, but

14 it wasn't recorded.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I said: "I think we can agree then that that it was mostly

17 non-Serb businesses which were burned down or bombed during the summer of

18 1992. Correct?" Can you please answer that question again.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You heard His Honour's query. Was there a time when this campaign

21 was directed more at Bosniak or Croat businesses and did that shift over

22 time?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to the word "campaign."

24 There's no evidence that this was a campaign.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour There's a lot of evidence this is a

Page 23494

1 campaign, this is my cross-examination.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No arguments in front of the witness, please.

3 Forget the word "campaign." And could you please answer the question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe there was no difference

5 whatsoever.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it you're telling us that throughout 1992,

7 it was always the majority -- the majority of businesses that were

8 targeted was, throughout 1992, always predominantly Croat rather than

9 Muslim?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I'm saying.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I want to know.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying both equally, Croat and

13 Muslim. Both equally.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, yes, Mr. Nicholls, I won't pursue

15 this.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, obviously if somebody's business is blown up, burned down,

18 that also affects their employment and would make them want to leave.

19 Correct?

20 A. Their employment, yes. Because then they would sublet the

21 business.

22 Q. Right. It wouldn't maybe possibly make somebody want to leave if

23 their business was blown up one night? That might not frighten them a

24 little bit?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23495

1 Q. So people weren't leaving Banja Luka, Bosniaks and Croats, just

2 because of the economy. Correct? They were also leaving because they

3 were frightened by these bombings, by these armed groups, by these

4 shootings?

5 A. Well, as I said before, it was because of the economy and also

6 because of the tension and the shooting. I believe I've already said

7 that.

8 Q. All right. Now, one thing I think you talked to the Defence about

9 when you met with them was the SOS in Banja Luka. Correct? Serbian

10 Defence Forces?

11 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question.

12 Q. When you met with Defence counsel, I don't know who you met with,

13 or their investigator, did you discuss the topic of the activities of the

14 SOS in Banja Luka in 1992?

15 A. We called it SOS. Perhaps that's the reason I didn't understand

16 the question.

17 Q. I'm sorry. That's what I was trying to call it. Did you --

18 answer the question, please.

19 A. Yes, yes. Briefly, though.

20 Q. Now, were you in Banja Luka when the SOS blockaded the city during

21 the first week of April?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So we know that you arrived in Banja Luka sometime in March?

24 A. March or April, thereabouts. Difficult to say.

25 Q. Well, if it was April, it was April 1st, wasn't it? Because the

Page 23496

1 blockade was on the 3rd, and you said you were there.

2 A. Yes. Well, I'm not sure about the dates. It's a bit difficult to

3 remember the dates. My wife went to university at that time, so that's

4 why I remember the rough date.

5 Q. Sir, I don't expect you to remember every date from over ten years

6 ago, don't worry about that. I just wanted to confirm that you were

7 present in Banja Luka when the SOS blockaded the town.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, these men were flat out criminals. Correct? No other way to

10 describe them.

11 A. No other way. 99 per cent of those, we can't.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: This doesn't quite make sense, at least the way it

13 shows on the monitor, or on the transcript. The question that Mr.

14 Nicholls put to you, sir, is: "Now these men were flat out criminals.

15 Correct? No other way to describe them." And what we have is: "No other

16 way. 99 per cent of those, we can't." Could you finish that sentence or

17 could you answer the question again, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of those were, yes.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, you know that your -- that Radoslav Brdjanin was a big

21 supporter of the SOS, don't you? Speak up, please.

22 A. No, I don't know that.

23 Q. That topic never came up when you were sitting around the house or

24 driving to Pale, the SOS?

25 A. No.

Page 23497

1 Q. Let me quickly show you P154. I have it here highlighted, if that

2 helps.

3 Sir, what I'm going to show you is a Glas article from 21st of

4 April 1992. It's entitled "dismissals according to the wishes of the

5 people." And it's an interview with Radoslav Brdjanin. If you see at the

6 present heading, right where the article begins, it states. The basic --

7 well, it goes on, but it states: "This is the basic reason for the

8 conversation with Radoslav Brdjanin, the vice president of the Assembly of

9 the -- of the AR Bosnian Krajina and a member of the crisis staff, it

10 says, of the municipality of Banja Luka, charged with putting through the

11 demands already accepted of the Serbian Defence Forces about personnel

12 changes in some of the Banja Luka public and joint stock corporations and

13 institutions."

14 Now, on page 3 of the English which, sir, for you is the

15 highlighted portion which begins at the bottom of the page and continues

16 to the top at the end of the article, there is this question from Glas:

17 "The period for the implementation of the demands of the SOS was 15 April.

18 It is clear that they have not been completely realised. Will this

19 happen, and if so when?"

20 And this is what Mr. Brdjanin answered: "We primarily want to

21 carry out our task in a peaceful and civilised manner. We are trying to

22 get people in certain responsible functions in individual firms to

23 understand that they have to pull out. If they really intend to be

24 stubborn and consistent in keeping their cushy positions, the

25 implementation of this demand will be taken over by the Serbian Defence

Page 23498

1 Forces. I repent that we do not want this to be settled in this way, but

2 if individual people in the Banja Luka companies who have been asked to

3 withdraw do not do so in a period of three days, then members of the SOS

4 will come on to the scene."

5 Glas: "All this is happening at a time when there are certain

6 political ferments in the political ruling circles of Banja Luka and

7 Krajina. Will it be a reason for new misunderstandings?"

8 Brdjanin: "I stress once again that the requests of the SOS for

9 personnel changes will get full support both from the crisis staff of

10 Banja Luka and from the AR Bosanska Krajina."

11 That's what it says, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now there, Mr. Brdjanin states -- well, now you know, don't you,

14 that he supported the SOS? It states here that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, sorry.

16 Okay. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.


18 Q. He states that the demands of the SOS are going to get full

19 support, doesn't he?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: That's where I'll object. Mr. Nicholls is trying

21 to apparently make the point that Brdjanin supported SOS, and the document

22 says the crisis staff and the AR Bosanska Krajina supported that

23 particular demand. So I think it's -- I think it's not fair to suggest

24 that this shows that Brdjanin was a big supporter of SOS.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think it's perfectly fair --

Page 23499

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: -- from this article to put this question --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I allow the question because Brdjanin here is

4 speaking for the crisis staff of Banja Luka and for the Autonomous Region

5 of Krajina as if he had authority to speak authoritatively on their

6 position. Yes, so go ahead.


8 Q. You had no inkling at the time or later that Mr. Brdjanin

9 supported the SOS. This is all brand-new lightning bolt out of the blue

10 to you, is it?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And we've already agreed that the SOS were criminals; 99 per cent,

13 you said. Mr. Brdjanin here says that he primarily wanted to carry out

14 his task in a peaceful and civilised manner, apparently not limiting

15 himself to those methods, and states that the SOS will reappear in three

16 days.

17 Now, knowing what you've said about the SOS in Banja Luka, a

18 previous blockade earlier this month, wouldn't that be taken as a threat

19 by the people reading this newspaper?

20 A. Well, first of all, this is certainly no proof that he was

21 supporting what it said in the newspapers. You know, there were all sorts

22 of things being stated in the newspapers where I come from. We have all

23 sorts of newspapers that you'd be hard-put to define as serious papers.

24 Therefore, I would take none of these things at face value.

25 Q. Try to answer the question. For a person in Banja Luka who had

Page 23500

1 experienced the SOS blockade earlier that month, for a Bosniak or for a

2 Croat or actually for anybody, isn't this a threat? If they read in the

3 paper here Mr. Brdjanin stating that unless the demands are fulfilled in

4 three days, the SOS will be back, that's a threat, isn't it?

5 A. Perhaps you could interpret it that way. I don't know really.

6 Q. All right.

7 And Glas at the time, that was the paper in Banja Luka, wasn't it?

8 That was the major paper.

9 A. No one read papers back then.

10 Q. No one read papers. No one read a paper? No one? That's your

11 testimony?

12 A. Very, very few people. Nothing was open at the time. Well, let

13 me tell you, it was difficult to move about. Who in their right state of

14 mind would go to a kiosk to get the papers?

15 Q. Okay.

16 Now, let me go back a little bit to when you first met

17 Mr. Brdjanin. When did you first --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there was a lot that the witness said

20 that never made it to the transcript.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very bad.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 35, line 17. He's saying we have all sorts of

23 newspapers. "You'd be hard-put to define as serious papers. Take none of

24 this as face value." And he said also, "I see now who wrote this article.

25 He's not a serious person at all, and his newspaper, too."

Page 23501

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You've heard --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: None of that got translated and put in the

3 transcript.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you followed what Mr. Ackerman has just

5 remarked?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say those words?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This is troublesome. It calls for an explanation.

10 Are the interpreters finding it difficult to follow the witness?

11 Because he doesn't give me the impression that he is talking too fast.


13 Q. You'd agree with me that the -- in 1992, after April, Glas was

14 essentially the paper of the SDS?

15 A. Probably.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I have -- can I have a look at the document

17 we've just seen, please, the newspaper.

18 Well, I need the English version obviously because I don't read --

19 MR. NICHOLLS: The English translation does not actually have the

20 name of the journalist on it, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You read me well, Mr. Nicholls. That's what I

22 wanted to know.


24 Q. Who's the author of this piece, sir? Who is the one you say --

25 A. Zeljko Kopanj.

Page 23502

1 Q. Now --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Nicholls, because I want to clear

3 this up.

4 Perhaps Mr. -- usher, this is all that the witness had? Or did he

5 have a second page? Can he show us where the name of the -- here it is,

6 here.

7 Yes, what do you know about this Andjelko Kopanj?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what can I tell you? I have

9 had plenty of opportunity to reassure myself when I read the papers that

10 what he wrote was simply not true. Now there's an independent paper where

11 he takes part.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But you passed the remark on him, according to

13 Mr. Ackerman, and you have confirmed, namely, that this person...

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm told, Your Honour, that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not a serious person at all. That's what

16 Mr. Ackerman pointed out to us, and you confirmed that you had stated that

17 he is not a serious person at all. I don't mean Mr. Ackerman, I mean

18 Mr. Kopanj. Why isn't he a serious person?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant about writing his articles.

20 Sometimes he twists things around to mean quite the opposite, so that's

21 what I had in mind when I said that. And he continues to do so even

22 today.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Anyway, he's -- usher, you can have this

24 back.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I had misread the note regarding his

Page 23503

1 prior answer. He said --

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I object to this constant --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He has answered the question already.

4 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: He said that he's not a serious person at all. And

6 then the last part that I couldn't read properly I'm now told that he

7 referred to his current newspaper, that he's also not serious in his

8 current newspaper where he's working.


10 MR. NICHOLLS: Just, Your Honour, before the break, I'd prefer

11 that we just ask the question again. If he says the answer is

12 incomplete --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the question again, Mr. Nicholls. You're free

14 to put the question again.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I think this is cleared up at this point. But in

16 principle, we don't know that the interpretation -- I'm not suggesting

17 anything deliberate, but there may be a mistake on that side. The

18 interpreters may have gotten it correct.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he already known at the time, in 1992, when this

20 article or this interview appeared in Glas? Was he already known as a

21 nonserious journalist?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm telling you is --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues]... Did he have

24 that reputation already at the time?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer this question.

Page 23504

1 I simply don't know, the time you're talking about.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, at the time, the date of the article. We're

3 talking of April of 1992.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a lot younger, too young

5 perhaps to pass judgement on that back at the time. I was not involved in

6 that. And I was not involved in politics. I think I was 23 back then.


8 Q. So you have no idea about what his reputation was back then. Back

9 then you've already stated you didn't read the newspapers. Right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. So you can have no judgement on how the credibility of this

12 article would have been viewed by the population in Banja Luka in 1992?

13 You can't tell us anything about that, can you?

14 A. I can't.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you remember any conversation that you might

17 have had with Mr. Brdjanin on this particular article or on this

18 particular report of his interview? Never mentioned that to you? He

19 never complained that he was misinterpreted or misquoted by this guy, by

20 this journalist in Glas?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember right now precisely

22 which journalists he talked about. But he often complained to me about

23 misinterpreted. When I say "often," I mean twice, perhaps three times.

24 He told me things, and that was my conclusion. I'm not sure I can

25 guarantee specifically about this article, but it did happen quite a

Page 23505

1 number of times that he was misquoted.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 Shall we break now. We'll break for 25 minutes. How much longer

4 do you think you need, Mr. Nicholls, so that we can programme our day.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: It's getting a little longer than I thought to be

6 honest.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I realise that. But it can become shorter now.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll definitely finish today. I can say that for

9 sure. My outline is very short. Probably in the next session, but maybe

10 just a little bit more.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Yes.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want the record to show that my direct

13 examination was 45 minutes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know that Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like the record to show that I think that is

16 entirely irrelevant to how long my cross is.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Anything else, Mr. Ackerman?

18 Mr. Nicholls? You've said enough, you think. All right. So let's have a

19 break of 25 minutes.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

24 Q. Now, you stated that you don't remember -- you're not sure whether

25 Mr. Kopanj is one of the journalists that Mr. Brdjanin complained about to

Page 23506

1 you. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you're talking now about -- we're talking about the complaints

4 made by Mr. Brdjanin from the time you met him, first started providing

5 security for him, up to, I don't know, for the next several years. Right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in all that time, you heard Mr. Brdjanin complain about being

8 misquoted two or three times?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, you say this journalist was not serious.

11 A. Now, yes. At least, to my understanding, yes.

12 Q. He published articles which exposed crimes, serious crimes,

13 committed by Serb forces, didn't he?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Time frame.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman is right, Mr. Nicholls.


17 Q. Well, at any time did he publish articles, to your knowledge,

18 which exposed committed by Serb forces from 1992 on?

19 A. Of all three peoples, yes.

20 Q. And he published articles about, amongst other things, the

21 massacre at Vlasic mountain, didn't he?

22 A. His paper published that, but I don't think he was the author of

23 that.

24 Q. His paper published that article, and that article was true,

25 wasn't it? You don't dispute that, do you?

Page 23507

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Yes, the article was true, just to be clear for the transcript.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what happened to this journalist, Mr. Kopanj, in 1999?

5 A. A bomb was placed under his car, but from what I heard, it was in

6 connection with some -- connections with crime and scandal. There was a

7 series of articles being published concerning crimes.

8 Q. So who was it who told you who knew precisely why this bomb was

9 placed under this man's car and blew his legs off?

10 A. Well, that was what was being said in Banja Luka.

11 Q. All right. So that was a rumour; that wasn't some high-level

12 contact in the police department --

13 A. He also stated once in the papers that prior to that, he also was

14 receiving threats from that side.

15 Q. Now --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So far, I fail to understand on what basis the

17 witness has characterised this journalist as a "nonserious one".

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I think you're right, Your Honour. I haven't -- I

19 wasn't actually pursuing that.

20 Q. But why do you say that this journalist is not serious. You've

21 admitted that that story published about that terrible massacre was a

22 correct one, or published in his paper? What was nonserious? And if you

23 want to, what was nonserious about the interview you read with Mr.

24 Brdjanin?

25 A. I didn't say that that paper -- that interview wasn't serious but

Page 23508

1 that that journalist and paper that he writes things which are not

2 serious, and he must then carry out two or three rectifications and

3 apologise to those people. It happened with Telekom, the Telekom. The

4 railroad, that was the latest.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can move to something else, Mr. Nicholls.


7 Q. Tell me again when you first met Mr. Brdjanin.

8 A. It was in 1992.

9 Q. What month? September? I'm sorry. I can't remember exactly what

10 you said.

11 A. Well, it was the end. It was in autumn or beginning of winter.

12 Somewhere in October or something like that.

13 Q. All right. And right from the beginning, from your first contact

14 with his family, they invited you in and treated you warmly?

15 A. Yes. Not only towards me; they also -- that was their attitude

16 towards my colleague with whom I worked.

17 Q. What was the name of your colleague?

18 A. Boris Dimitrasinovic.

19 Q. Now, how long -- when was the last time that you in any capacity

20 provided security in any capacity for Mr. Brdjanin? I mean, what was the

21 last time? When was the last time you directly guarded his house, went to

22 Pale with him, anything like that?

23 A. Well, as long as he was the minister in the Government of the

24 Republika Srpska.

25 Q. And after that -- and throughout that time, you continued to have

Page 23509

1 these warm relations with his family?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You didn't just provide security; you attended social events,

4 parties?

5 A. After that, I wasn't securing his house any more. But we would

6 visit each other, and we would socialise.

7 Q. Right. And you mentioned that he's got a three-month old I think

8 you said grandson or granddaughter?

9 A. Yes, a grandson.

10 Q. Have you seen this baby? Have you seen the grandson?

11 A. Yes, I have.

12 Q. When did you see the grandson?

13 A. A month ago.

14 Q. All right. So you're still connected closely to the Brdjanin

15 family?

16 A. Well, yes. We visit each other for the Slavas. We see each other

17 two, three times a year.

18 Q. Right. I'm just trying to get that straight. You've had a

19 relationship for over ten years with Mr. Brdjanin's family.

20 Now you originally showed up because the windshield had been

21 broken of his Toyota or something like that. Right?

22 A. When the car was broken into.

23 Q. Yeah. Maybe I misunderstood you. His car was broken into,

24 something like that. So you were assigned to provide --

25 A. Well, there was this report which came in from the SUP. After

Page 23510

1 that, there was another break-in.

2 Q. Let me just ask: Do you understand English?

3 A. Not very well.

4 Q. Okay. Because try to wait -- I think you're getting the

5 understanding before you get the translation. Try to wait until my

6 question is finished before you answer.

7 Now, you didn't -- and when you arrived, you started doing night

8 detail? You were on night shift security. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was on security detail before you showed up? In other words,

11 if you know, who was providing security for Mr. Brdjanin during 1992 up

12 until when you took up your position?

13 A. I believe it was Sevo, Nenad, and a Cavka, a Muslim, Seva.

14 Svraka, something like that.

15 Q. So you provided -- these two men were not providing security

16 detail at the same time you were. Is that right? They were your

17 predecessors?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: A few things that I cannot follow here. What kind

20 of security was this? Was it during the day or was it during the whole

21 day or during the night? What was it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only during night -- the night.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That was before you entered the scene?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And when you entered the scene, you continued

Page 23511

1 security during the night. Is that correct?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So what changed was only the people or the persons

4 that mounted the security?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So why is it -- what is the relevance of the

7 breaking into the car of Mr. Brdjanin and the breaking of his, or stealing

8 of his windscreen? Because he had a guard or security at night presumably

9 before these incidents happened. You gave us to understand that you were

10 assigned together with your colleague as security at night because the

11 need was felt for that kind of security following the breaking into

12 Mr. Brdjanin's car and also the stealing of or the theft of his

13 windscreen. But it seems that he had security at night already before

14 that. Am I right or am I wrong?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. First the car was broken into.

16 And then security was appointed. And after that, again, there was this

17 theft of the windscreen once or twice.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, are you hinting that the previous

19 guards were replaced by you and your colleague because notwithstanding the

20 security, incidents continued to happen?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the windscreen was stolen also

22 once when I was on guard.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, it begins to get complicated, Mr. Nicholls.

24 And I stop here.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

Page 23512

1 Q. My point, sir, which His Honour has questioned you about is that

2 as far as you know, continuously through 1992, Mr. Brdjanin was provided

3 with security detail, at least two security guards. Correct?

4 A. Not throughout the entire 1992.

5 Q. When did he start having security provided for him, if you know

6 that?

7 A. Somewhere -- let's say two or three months before I was assigned

8 to that duty. That is what I heard from my colleagues before I replaced

9 the others.

10 Q. All right. Now, you're sure you weren't put in to replace this

11 man because Mr. Brdjanin or others thought he shouldn't have a Muslim

12 security guard?

13 A. They were -- they were the ones who were -- who asked to be

14 transferred to the traffic police, and that is what happened because that

15 Seva, his brother-in-law worked in the traffic police department.

16 Q. And that's desirable duty, is it, when you're a policeman, to be

17 put on traffic detail? That's somewhere you normally ask to be

18 transferred to, so you can be close to your brother? Is that -- that's

19 your explanation?

20 A. Well, it was easier to work on traffic. In that department, you

21 worked in shifts, while here you worked only at night.

22 Q. All right. You may have not been reading the paper, but you were

23 working with government officials and worked in security in 1992. You

24 grew up in Banja Luka. You spent your whole life there basically. You

25 know that people in Banja Luka were dismissed from their employment based

Page 23513

1 on their ethnicity, don't you? I'm not saying that was the cause for

2 every single person leaving --

3 A. Well, it did happen.

4 Q. It did happen. And it did happen on the orders of the ARK Crisis

5 Staff, didn't it?

6 A. I don't know at whose orders, but it did occur.

7 Q. Let me show you P688.

8 While we're waiting for that, you spoke about a man, Davidovic,

9 earlier when you were in combat in charge of your unit. What's that man's

10 first name again?

11 A. Stojan. He was my commander there when I was near Brcko.

12 Q. All right.

13 Now, this is a decision of the ARK Crisis Staff from 22nd of June

14 1992, sir. The Chamber has seen this document before. And I don't want

15 to spend a long time on it. You'll agree with me, won't you, that this is

16 a decision signed by your former boss, Mr. Brdjanin --

17 A. That's it --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It was not exactly his former boss. We have no

19 indication that Mr. Brdjanin had employed --

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry.

21 Q. Your former --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman wants to go deeper than this.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: The question also says it was signed by

24 Mr. Brdjanin, and I think that's in significant dispute. We've had

25 testimony that it wasn't signed by him.

Page 23514

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think all Mr. Brdjanin's signatures are in

2 dispute, even the ones the Defence tendered as specimens of his signature.

3 Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls, please.


5 Q. You'll agree with me that this is a document that purports to be

6 signed by Mr. Brdjanin, has his name at the bottom, as president of the

7 ARK Crisis Staff, a decision holding that only personnel of Serbian

8 ethnicity may hold various posts. Correct?

9 Speak up, please. Sorry, I thought you'd answered.

10 A. Yes, which are of national interest because at the time the war

11 had already broken out.

12 Q. Right. And these are the people, then, you were talking about who

13 were dismissed because of their ethnicity? People who fell within this

14 category of "national interest" as you put it?

15 A. Yes. But only in the leadership posts, as far as I know.

16 Q. You -- I'm done with that document.

17 You -- when you provided security for Mr. Brdjanin, let me just

18 make sure I'm correct. You never provided security with him during

19 daytime hours?

20 A. Yes, except once when we were -- we drove Mira and the children,

21 that was in September 1993. That is what I already explained, that we

22 took her there. I didn't, neither did my colleagues with whom I had

23 worked.

24 Q. Okay. But also, you said you went to Pale with Mr. Brdjanin, and

25 Mr. Ackerman said something like, well, I guess you were just keeping him

Page 23515

1 company or something like that. I'm not trying to trick you or anything,

2 but you were providing security detail on his journeys to Pale, correct,

3 on occasion?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Officially or unofficially? Because I think we need

5 to clear this up.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Officially.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Unofficially.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I'm telling you because it works like

9 that. At a certain point in time, you say, can you do me a favour, I know

10 you're not on duty tomorrow, can you come. And that's how it goes.


12 Q. Is that correct, sir?

13 A. No, no. I asked him if I could go with him to Pale.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


16 Q. So you would call up Mr. Brdjanin and say "Yeah, I hear you're

17 going to Pale. Can I go along for the ride and we can talk"?

18 A. No. We were talking. We were talking in the evening that the

19 next morning he'd be leaving for Pale. And I asked him could I go with

20 you?

21 Q. All right. So basically, you have no idea what Brdjanin -- well,

22 during daylight hours, you don't know where Mr. Brdjanin went in the

23 morning, do you exactly?

24 A. [No Interpretation]

25 Q. You need to speak up, sir.

Page 23516

1 A. No.

2 Q. You don't know who he talked to.

3 A. No.

4 Q. You don't know what documents he signed during the day or which

5 meetings he attended?

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Golic, please speak up.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


10 Q. You have no idea what he was up to during the days during 1992?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And just finally on that, you don't know where he went during the

13 day either?

14 A. No, no, I wasn't there during daytime.

15 Q. The other thing you talked quite a bit about -- actually, sorry,

16 let me just finish this up. You've talked about the names of some people

17 who provided security for Mr. Brdjanin that you know of. I don't have the

18 names on the screen, but could you tell me, please, the names of any other

19 people who you know of who at any time provided security for Mr. Brdjanin.

20 A. Dimitrasinovic, Boris. Knezevic, Zeljko. Radonjic, Boro. Cavka

21 of Muslim ethnicity. And Seva, Nenad. I know these -- that these people

22 were in the security.

23 Q. Okay. You also talked quite a bit about Mr. Brdjanin's views on

24 mixed marriages and towards the non-Serb population. Did you watch TV,

25 television, during 1992 after April? During the whole year actually, in

Page 23517

1 Banja Luka.

2 A. I wasn't there the entire year 1992. But I did watch it

3 occasionally.

4 Q. Now, back in 1992, you didn't -- reserves -- you didn't call

5 Croats Ustashas, did you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Because that would be a nasty racist way to refer to these people,

8 wouldn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you didn't call Muslims balijas for the same reason. Right?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. And you didn't refer to these people as "non-Christian scum who

13 needed to be wiped off the shoes of the Serb people," did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You know the person you guarded, Mr. Brdjanin, referred to these

16 people this way in 1992, don't you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. That's completely new to you. You never heard that. You never

19 heard it then --

20 A. I didn't hear that.

21 Q. Now, your wife's family left Banja Luka during 1992 because your

22 mother-in-law wanted to set up a shop in Zagreb or something.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How did they leave? What was their method of transport?

25 A. By plane, airplane.

Page 23518

1 Q. When did they leave, if you remember the month? Maybe you said

2 it. I don't remember.

3 A. I believe it was May. From the airport of Makovjani to Belgrade,

4 and from Belgrade to Hungary, and from Hungary to Zagreb.

5 Q. You're aware a lot of people leaving Banja Luka during that time,

6 they weren't able to leave by plane, were they?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. They left by bus, in convoys, didn't they?

9 A. Yes, by buses.

10 Q. And you know that those people, there were limits on the amount of

11 property or money that they could bring with them, don't you?

12 A. Property, I don't know. Money, you know, they couldn't take with

13 them anything much except for their bags, as far as I know.

14 Q. Did it ever occur to you perhaps that the reason that your wife's

15 family didn't have problems, were able to leave by plane, was because of

16 you? Because you were a Serb policeman?

17 A. They -- well -- well, I made it possible to -- for them to go by

18 plane, but two of them left in their private car.

19 Q. Yeah, you made it possible. In other words, they were in a

20 privileged position because of their relationship with you because you

21 were either in a relationship or soon to be married to their daughter.

22 Right? That's pretty simple.

23 A. Well, I had to get married.

24 Q. Answer the question, please.

25 A. Yes.

Page 23519

1 Q. Okay. I just wanted to be clear that your in-laws' experience

2 wasn't typical of non-Serbs in Banja Luka.

3 You'll also agree with me that there were strong feelings amongst

4 a lot of the Serb population against mixed marriages during this period.

5 Right?

6 A. There were cases like that, yes.

7 Q. Yeah. And isn't it true that a Serb being in a relationship with

8 or married to a non-Serb woman was not generally considered as egregious

9 or was not as frowned upon as a Serb woman married to a Bosniak man?

10 A. It's all the same to me. I don't know.

11 Q. I'm not just asking to you, I'm talking about the general

12 perception.

13 A. I don't know. I can't answer this question.

14 Q. So back in May 1992, if your sister had brought home a Muslim man

15 and said "we're dating," or "we're engaged," you wouldn't have had any

16 problem with that? You would have said "welcome to the family." Is that

17 what you're telling us?

18 A. Yes, I would have.

19 Q. And do you remember -- I'll ask you this specifically. You were

20 watching TV. Did you ever remember hearing Mr. Brdjanin on television

21 talking about mixed marriages?

22 A. No. I only watched Radoslav during the assembly meetings. But as

23 to him talking about mixed marriages, I didn't see anything like that.

24 Q. All right. And let me just be clear. You've never heard, not

25 just in 1992, because you never watched him on TV, but you never heard

Page 23520

1 that Mr. Brdjanin use these kind of awful terms to describe non-Serbs

2 during 1992? You're hearing that for the first time from me in Court here

3 today. Is that what you're testifying to?

4 A. About mixed marriages, yes, first time.

5 Q. No, I'm talking about that he called people "balijas,""Ustashas,"

6 "non-Christian scum." Have you heard that he used those kind of terms to

7 describe non-Serbs in 1992?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he's asked that, and it's been

9 answered, and he's gone through it, and we're just repeating it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It is a different question. The question is whether

11 this is the first time he's heard about these allegations or whether he's

12 heard them also, although not in 1992, but before he came here to this --

13 to testify in this trial.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard that from Radoslav

15 Brdjanin personally.


17 Q. Again --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not answering the question either.

19 The question is not, now, whether you heard Mr. Brdjanin say --

20 utter any such words or similar words, but whether you had heard about

21 Mr. Brdjanin uttering such words before you came here to testify. Or is

22 it the first time that you are hearing about this allegation?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I heard is that he

24 referred to people who had not been christened as communists. That was

25 the only thing I heard, but that was what I heard from other people.

Page 23521

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now we have the communists included,

2 too. So makes your life more complicated, Mr. Nicholls.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think so.

4 Q. I think your answer is, sir, is you never had an inkling that he

5 he'd used these types of phrases before, you never heard that from

6 anybody, this is a shock coming to you from the Prosecutor today. Right?

7 Yes or no.

8 A. No, I never heard anything like that.

9 Q. Okay. And while you were on a fist-name basis with this man

10 guarding him at night, or supposed to be guarding him at night --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, what does "supposed to be guarding him

12 at night" mean?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right.

14 Mr. Nicholls -- it doesn't mean anything, Mr. Ackerman. He didn't

15 mean to say it.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: I just meant that he was doing such a wonderful job

17 that the car got broken into while he was on duty.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That happens. It depends where the car was.


20 Q. Your job is to guard this minister and his family at night.

21 Right?

22 A. The building.

23 Q. All right. You're guarding the people in the building. Right?

24 A. The building, although the people were there, then we were

25 guarding him. But if he wasn't around, I wouldn't go running after him.

Page 23522

1 I was not allowed to abandon that location while I was on duty.

2 Q. Okay. I know. You're guarding him and his house, you're guarding

3 him when he's at home. This man is a minister and somebody -- and you

4 know he was president of the ARK Crisis Staff. Right?

5 A. I heard that, but when I was guarding him he was the

6 vice-president of the government and a minister.

7 Q. You heard that. That was my question.

8 You never had any interest, any curiosity in watching this man

9 when he made television appearances?

10 A. In 1992?

11 Q. 1992, 1993.

12 A. I don't know. I don't know whether I watched him once or twice.

13 But he was talking about the ministry. I wasn't really interested.

14 Q. All right.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: One moment, Your Honour.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]


18 Q. Just one question: Did you -- no, I think...

19 I think that's all on that topic.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'd request we go into private

21 session.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23523












12 Pages 23523 to 23534 redacted, private session














Page 23534

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 23535

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we in open session? We are in open session now.


3 Q. I want to ask you again your commander or your unit commander,

4 Stojan Davidovic, he was, in fact, part of the CSB, the special unit, was

5 he not? I just want to be very clear on that.

6 A. He was commander at the war front, the police units, the reserve

7 units.

8 Q. Are you saying he was never part of the CSB, the special unit, the

9 CSB special unit?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know that.

11 Q. This is the same man who's currently director of Banja Luka

12 prison, of the prison in Banja Luka?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

16 Is there any redirect, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. Very brief.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

20 Q. Mr. Golic, at the beginning of the cross-examination, Mr. Nicholls

21 was -- showed you a newspaper article that was printed in Glas that

22 contained an interview, a purported interview with Mr. Brdjanin. Do you

23 remember that? Dated in April 1992. He showed it to you right at the

24 beginning, and you were talking about the author and that he was a person

25 who you thought was not all that reliable?

Page 23536

1 A. That was my opinion. But I haven't seen it up until now.

2 Q. Yes. The question I have is were you aware in April or May of

3 1992 that there was a big dispute between Mr. Brdjanin and the editor of

4 Glas, Mr. Mladjenovic regarding the --

5 MR. NICHOLLS: It's starting to lead. I think he can ask about

6 any disputes with the editor he was aware of, and let the witness pick

7 when that dispute was if he knows of any dispute.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think the objection has to be sustained, and

9 your question rephrased, Mr. Ackerman.


11 Q. Were you aware at any time of any dispute between Mr. Brdjanin and

12 the editor of the Glas newspaper?

13 A. At that time, no. But later, in my talks with Radoslav, I heard

14 that they were -- there was a dispute between the two. That was in the

15 month of April.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: April of which year?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.


19 Q. You were asked if you have ever heard Mr. Brdjanin speak against

20 mixed marriages. I'm wondering if you ever heard from any other source

21 that Mr. Brdjanin had spoken against mixed marriages.

22 A. No. Because I'm also in a mixed marriage. And in front of me,

23 nobody spoke of that because I was in that position, and I heard -- I

24 didn't -- I haven't heard it from him ever. Because maybe somebody would

25 hesitate, people would hesitate to speak against mixed marriages because

Page 23537

1 they knew that I was in a mixed marriage.

2 Q. When, the best you possibly can, give us the date that you

3 actually started doing security at Mr. Brdjanin's house?

4 MR. NICHOLLS: This is, I think, not really proper for redirect.

5 I mean, he has already asked about this, and he's --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I will allow the question, Mr. Nicholls, because

7 it's not exactly very clear when this --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere -- the end of 1992. Was

9 it -- either it was October or November.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. We're back in private session, Your Honour,

11 please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23538

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

17 I take it there are no questions from the Bench, which basically

18 means that your testimony ends here. Before the usher escorts you out of

19 the courtroom, I want to assure you that you'll receive all the assistance

20 you require from the Tribunal to enable you to return home as soon as

21 possible. On behalf of the Trial Chamber and also of the Tribunal, I

22 should like to thank you for having come over to give testimony. And on

23 behalf of everyone present here, I wish you a safe journey back home.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 23539

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So, I would imagine we need to discuss a little bit

2 what's going to happen next week and thereafter. And thereafter.

3 So I take it that Witness Number 11 will not be coming,

4 Mr. Ackerman. No?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, next week, we have Witness Number 8

6 and Witness Number 27.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Those two.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. And I think that will take up the entire

9 week.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are sitting the entire week next week. So

11 we have four and a half -- I would imagine that the first one is going to

12 last three days for sure, if not more.

13 And then after that, we reconvene on the 12th of January. Do you

14 have any indication -- I know that Mr. Cunningham told us yesterday that

15 you will make use of tomorrow, Thursday not being a sitting day, to sort

16 of reorganise all this.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think on Monday Ms. Korner asked me

18 if we would be able to supply the Prosecutor with a list of the witnesses

19 we would be calling after the break, a sort of final witness list. And I

20 told her that we were working on it and before the break we would

21 certainly have that available to her. So she and I have already discussed

22 that and worked it out and we have an agreement about it, and we'll, of

23 course, do that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you be kind enough to let us have a copy of

25 that.

Page 23540

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Certainly.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you about 38 and 42. You had indicated

3 these -- the first one as being postponed, and 42 as being doubtful. Has

4 the situation changed?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: They both remain as doubtful status. Your Honour.

6 I'd be very surprised if they actually come.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need to raise anything, Ms. Korner?

8 MS. KORNER: The only thing is the question of the summaries. At

9 the moment we're getting them roughly a day, maybe two before the witness

10 testifies, the full summaries. We're told --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You're lucky.

12 MS. KORNER: We're doing rather better than you are, Your Honour.

13 We're told today that in fact for Monday's witness, they already have

14 proper statements which they must have known about and which they could

15 have disclosed to us sometime before. Your Honour, we're going to do a

16 trade on this one. When we get statements they've got, they will be

17 supplied with our interview of this gentleman. That's the one on Monday.

18 But I would ask that, again, before the break once we know which

19 witnesses are coming, if there are statements as opposed to conversations

20 with investigators, we be supplied with those at the same time as the

21 list.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: We'll do that, Your Honour. I don't think we have

24 any more statements, but I sometimes get surprised.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that. So we will reconvene on Monday.

Page 23541

1 Monday we are sitting in the morning.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Can I just ask, Your Honour, to run through the

3 timetable for next week. It's Monday morning, and thereafter --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Tuesday and Wednesday in the afternoon, unless we

5 can manage to find a courtroom in the morning.

6 MS. KORNER: We would be very grateful.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the problem is Blaskic because I think that

8 next week --

9 MS. KORNER: I'd be grateful if there's any chance of Wednesday

10 afternoon becoming Wednesday morning.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Chuqing.

12 MS. KORNER: She has been asked, and I know she is making

13 inquiries.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: How about Thursday? When are we sitting on

15 Thursday?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thursday we are sitting in the morning. Friday we

17 are sitting in the morning, too. So it's only Tuesday and Wednesday. And

18 I mean, I would prefer to sit in the morning if that is possible. But I

19 don't know because apparently the courtrooms have sort of been

20 requisitioned by the Appeals Chamber in its different compositions to deal

21 with some of the appeals before the recess. So that's the problem that we

22 may have. On the other hand, there's Hadzihasanovic which is going on the

23 entire week, and Milosevic, which ties our hands. So that's the problem

24 that we have. But I will do my best to accommodate everyone, including

25 ourselves.

Page 23542

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I say, it is a purely personal

2 request for the Wednesday, but I --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We will try. If we need to finish early on

4 Wednesday, we will try and finish early on Wednesday and try and pick up

5 on Thursday and Friday.

6 MS. KORNER: Don't worry, Your Honour. No. I wouldn't ask --

7 it's not--

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But you will find the Chamber cooperative as we

9 always try to be. Thank you. We stand adjourned to Monday. Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.14 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

12 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.