Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23634

1 Tuesday, 16 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's wait for Mr. Brdjanin, Madam Registrar,

5 please.

6 [The accused entered court]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

8 please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

10 Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

12 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you follow in a

13 language that you can understand?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Good afternoon,

15 Your Honours. Yes, I can.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 Appearances, Prosecution.

18 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted by Denise

19 Gustin, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, good afternoon you.

21 Appearances, Defence.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: David Cunningham, John Ackerman, and Aleksandar

23 Vujic.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you. I understand there are some

25 preliminaries.

Page 23635

1 MS. KORNER: Yes, there are, Your Honour. The first one goes

2 back to the discussion we had with Your Honours last week about the

3 question of an appeal. As Your Honours know we filed an appeal last

4 Wednesday, within the seven days, and now the situation arises that

5 although we've asked for an expedited hearing because of the importance,

6 what the situation will be as regards joint enterprise in its third

7 category for the remainder of the trial until such time as the appeal is

8 heard. Because as Your Honour said two weeks ago, for all purposes we're

9 precluded now from addressing any further submissions to Your Honours on

10 it. Mr. Ackerman at this stage is entitled to proceed, unless Your

11 Honours say otherwise, because of the appeal is entitled to proceed on

12 the basis he doesn't have to concern himself with that aspect. So I

13 raise it now so Your Honours can make a decision perhaps -- preferably

14 before we adjourn, but if not at the beginning of the next session, in

15 the new year.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. I think it can be addressed. Let me hear

17 what Mr. Ackerman has to say.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I didn't anticipate that this would come up,

19 so I really have nothing to say. As far as I'm concerned, a decision by

20 a Trial Chamber is a binding decision. I think it's not in the case.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole thing boils down to what our law is or

22 how our law stands on matters of execution of judgements pending appeal.

23 That's what it boils down to. And I think it is sufficiently addressed

24 in the Rules already. Give it a thought, Mr. Ackerman, as well, and at

25 your earliest please come back to us if you have any comments.

Page 23636

1 Yes, Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: That's why I raised it.

3 Your Honour, the second matter is this: Yesterday when we were

4 dealing with the timetable, Your Honours said that we should file our

5 final briefs by the 31st of March, Mr. Ackerman the 1st of April.

6 Mr. Ackerman mentioned that that didn't give time --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

8 MS. KORNER: -- to respond to us, but Your Honours in fact the

9 practice is this. We both file on the same day, and then if either

10 wishes to respond to matters that are in the other side's brief, we apply

11 to Your Honour for leave. So I would ask that we both file on the same

12 day.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine with me, Your Honour, as long as

15 there's an opportunity to respond to their brief.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

17 As I tried to explain yesterday, you will find us very flexible

18 on that. So for us it doesn't really make a difference. I suppose

19 Mr. Roberts is following the proceedings, as he did yesterday, and he

20 will jot this down and we'll discuss it when we have the Status

21 Conference.

22 MS. KORNER: All right.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But take it for granted that is all find us

24 very flexible.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm most grateful. It seemed to be

Page 23637

1 most sensible. That will give both sides to deal with matters that are

2 raised.

3 And finally, Your Honours, this: I sent Mr. Ackerman an email

4 yesterday setting out a sort of proposed list of sites and places for any

5 visits that Your Honour may make, and I hope Mr. Ackerman got it. Well,

6 in that case, I'm not sure about his email address. All right. I think

7 I also copied it to Mr. Cunningham.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: We have it.

9 MS. KORNER: You do have it.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Still trying to figure out how to get to

11 Dubrovnik.

12 MS. KORNER: Mr. Nicholls has one matter to raise.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to raise this in private session,

14 Mr. Nicholls?


16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 23643

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: With respect to the next witness, the next

11 witness I believe is arriving today. We're going to proof that witness

12 tomorrow morning, and we will be ready to put him on as soon as this

13 witness is over. So I hope it won't break anyone's heart to move that

14 witness up maybe to Wednesday rather than Thursday.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: As far as I'm concerned, the earlier we're finished

16 the better.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I think it's unlikely that I'm going to finish

18 with whatever I have left today, after the direct finishes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see where we get and take it up from there.

20 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, just before the witness -- when

21 is Your Honour intending to have this Status Conference?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I was thinking of Thursday, but -- I was thinking

23 initially of Wednesday, but I thought you had some problems on Wednesday.

24 And I'll try and accommodate you as much as I can. So --

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, such problems as we have are not ones

Page 23644

1 which ought to take precedence over what Your Honours --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's easier for everyone to have the Status

3 Conference on Thursday, we'll try and have it on Thursday.

4 Yes, please, could you bring the witness in.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are continuing --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- with your testimony today. And I'm just

11 reminding you that you are testifying under the solemn undertaking that

12 you made yesterday; namely, to speak the truth, the whole truth, and

13 nothing but the truth.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Mr. Cunningham: [Continued]

20 Q. Sir, when we left off yesterday we were talking about the ARK

21 Crisis Staff, and we were talking about the 15 members from Banja Luka.

22 What I'd like to do now is talk to you about the physical plant, the

23 facilities of the ARK Crisis Staff.

24 Where did the ARK Crisis Staff meet at?

25 A. The crisis staff of the ARK met in an office in the municipal

Page 23645












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Page 23646

1 assembly building in Banja Luka.

2 Q. Who did that office belong to?

3 A. It belonged to the municipal authorities of Banja Luka.

4 Q. Did the ARK Crisis Staff ever had its own office?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You, in your capacity as the vice-president of the ARK Crisis

7 Staff, did you have anyone who worked for you? Anyone that was your

8 assistant?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you aware of anyone who worked for the ARK Crisis Staff?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You told us when you found out you were appointed to the ARK

13 Crisis Staff you found out by way of a telephone call. How were you

14 notified of ARK Crisis Staff meetings?

15 A. Usually by phone.

16 Q. And what would those telephone calls inform you of?

17 A. You have a meeting of the crisis staff at the following time in

18 the following room.

19 Q. Would the phone call include anything about the agenda or the

20 matters to be discussed at the next meeting of the crisis staff?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Before you attended a meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff, were you

23 ever given any documents, an agenda? Was that supplied to you before you

24 attended?

25 A. No.

Page 23647

1 Q. Upon your arrival at the meetings, would any documents be passed

2 out to the members of the crisis staff?

3 A. Most of the time, not .

4 Q. Okay. How would it be, then, that you and other members of the

5 crisis staff would be notified as to what would be the subjects of

6 discussion for that meeting? How did you find out about an agenda, if

7 any?

8 A. Once a meeting starts, someone puts forward the agenda.

9 Q. And who would be the individual putting forth the agenda?

10 A. The president of the crisis staff.

11 Q. At the meetings, five or six meetings you attended, who was the

12 presiding individual at the ARK Crisis Staff meetings?

13 A. Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin.

14 Q. And you said once a meeting starts, someone puts forward the

15 agenda. Please describe, if you can, how Mr. Brdjanin would put forward

16 the agenda.

17 A. He would open the meeting. He had documents in front of him. I

18 don't know whether it was typed up or not. And then he would set the

19 agenda for the meeting.

20 Q. Would he set the agenda -- let me back up. Could other

21 individuals, other members -- other individuals who were attending the

22 crisis staff, could they suggest items for the agenda?

23 A. Yes, there were cases like that.

24 Q. Okay. And can you give us an example of a situation where a

25 topic was suggested and added to the agenda?

Page 23648

1 A. I can't recall any specific ones right now, off the bat. But I

2 think there were such cases, just that I can't remember now.

3 Q. Fair enough. Do you know an individual by the name of Boro

4 Blagojevic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And who was he?

7 A. I think at the time he was the secretary to the Assembly of the

8 ARK. He was a lawyer.

9 Q. And did he have any connection to the ARK Crisis Staff?

10 A. I never saw him at meetings. Therefore, I don't know if he had

11 any connection or not.

12 Q. Do you know if anyone was tasked or given the responsibility of

13 taking the minutes of the ARK Crisis Staff?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. Did you ever see anyone inside the meetings taking notes, taking

16 what appeared to be minutes?

17 A. I didn't notice anyone taking the minutes in any common,

18 widespread sense of the word, but there probably was someone doing that,

19 yes.

20 Q. Did you during this short period of time that this entity

21 existed, did you ever see any minutes from the ARK Crisis Staff?

22 A. No.

23 Q. In the early part of the existence of the ARK Crisis Staff, how

24 were the meetings conducted? You've told us that Mr. Brdjanin would

25 preside over the meetings. But what would happen once the agenda was

Page 23649

1 set?

2 A. The meeting would start.

3 Q. And once it would start, what would happen?

4 A. Usually the president of the crisis staff talked about problems,

5 assessments. There would be conclusions proposed at the end -- towards

6 the end of each session, and other members of the crisis staff took part

7 in the work of the session, too.

8 Q. How would a conclusion be adopted, if you can recall?

9 A. There was a way, a peculiar way. He asked us whether we were in

10 favour or not. There was no particular procedure adopted for this, in

11 the usual sense of the word. He would just consult us.

12 Q. Now, yesterday we talked about the one exhibit that listed 15

13 members of the crisis staff, all from Banja Luka. Was there a time when

14 the composition of the crisis staff changed from those 15 members?

15 A. I looked at it yesterday, and I'm familiar with the composition.

16 I believe that Mr. Kuzmanovic was replaced, but I don't know whether he

17 attended any of the meetings. At least, I never saw him there.

18 Secondly, I know that many members didn't even come when I was there, so

19 sometimes there would be someone else coming on behalf of someone else;

20 someone on behalf of Zupljanin, for example. But not everyone attended,

21 and a good many of those who held official positions were sometimes not

22 there.

23 Q. And do you know why it is that those who held official positions

24 were not coming to crisis staff meetings?

25 A. I do not know. I know that when I couldn't make it, I just

Page 23650

1 wasn't there, for official reasons or other reasons.

2 Q. If we look at Exhibit 168, which is the list of the members of

3 the crisis staff, if we look at entry number 16, it says: "Presidents of

4 the municipalities." Do you see that line?

5 A. Sixteen; Presidents. The Rip Municipality; is that what you

6 mean?

7 Q. Yes, sir. Now, at any time while the crisis staff was in

8 existence, did you notice that its composition had changed to

9 representatives of the various municipalities within the ARK?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when was that? Was that towards the beginning, the middle,

12 or towards the end of the existence of the ARK Crisis Staff?

13 A. I think towards the end.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. If I remember correctly, that was June, towards the end of its

16 existence.

17 Q. Can you describe these meetings, what were the topics of

18 conversation? First of all, let's talk about how the agenda was set.

19 Was it set the same way you described, by Mr. Brdjanin?

20 A. I think in almost the same way, with the proviso that at those

21 meetings you had representatives from the municipalities, not from all

22 the municipalities. And sometimes you had two or three people coming

23 from the same municipality. So it was a sort of a meeting the way I

24 viewed it, and I did not consider it to be a meeting of the crisis staff.

25 It was just a meeting, a gathering of people, people who came to discuss

Page 23651

1 problems in the area.

2 Q. You talked about how there would be people from some but not all

3 of the municipalities within the ARK. What sort of topics would they

4 raise during these discussions, these meetings that you've just

5 described?

6 A. They would bring up a wide range of different subjects; the

7 economy, the problems they were facing in their everyday lives, the

8 Krajina area being surrounded, for example. There was still no way out

9 of the area towards the mother country at that point. They talked about

10 problems to do with refugees, with collection centres, with general

11 safety, with the supplies running out, with medical supplies running out,

12 and so on.

13 Q. You talked about -- let's talk about the supplies that you just

14 referenced, the supplies running out and the medical supplies coming out.

15 When these representatives would come to these meetings, would they make

16 any requests with respect to supplies?

17 A. There were requests being made by those representatives who were

18 in need of certain kinds of supplies. I believe the council of the ARK

19 helped with that, with the commodity reserves, with fuel supplies, and

20 the like.

21 Q. When you say "the council of the ARK," are you talking about the

22 executive council?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who was the head of the executive council?

25 A. Mr. Nikola Erceg.

Page 23652

1 Q. You also talked about how the municipality members would talk

2 about general safety. During these meetings that you've described, did

3 you ever hear presidents of the municipalities or representatives from

4 municipalities express their concern with the presence of Serbian

5 paramilitaries in their municipality?

6 A. I don't think this subject was particularly prominent, although

7 it was brought up at times. I don't remember any particularly heated

8 debate on that. It was a matter for the municipalities to deal with.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember at any meeting you attended whether any

10 representatives from Prijedor were present at the meeting?

11 A. I do remember that meeting quite well, in fact.

12 Q. And --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Go ahead.


15 Q. You said you remember that meeting very well. Let's try to

16 establish first of all when that meeting occurred. Do you remember,

17 roughly speaking, when this was?

18 A. I can't give you the exact dates. This was a long time ago, and

19 I didn't keep track of dates. But back then, there were problems with

20 people arriving in the collection centres, in the surroundings of

21 Prijedor, and several people were there who were from Prijedor, not just

22 one person. That's why I remember the occasion well. There was a

23 polemic during the debate with Mr. Radic about that, or rather how to

24 resolve a number of issues.

25 Q. Okay. What -- you've talked about collection centres in

Page 23653

1 Prijedor. What came up at this meeting? What were you and anyone else

2 present at the crisis staff informed of about these collection centres in

3 Prijedor Municipality?

4 A. I learned that there was a shortage of food, that they did not

5 have sufficient accommodation or clothes to give those people; the usual

6 problems that you encounter with collection centres, when you have a

7 large number of people accumulated in one small area. That's what I

8 found out about it at the time.

9 Q. What was your understanding -- according to the representatives

10 from Prijedor, what was your understanding or -- let me back it up to

11 make it clearer. What did the representatives from Prijedor tell you

12 about these collection centres?

13 A. I must say that I remember this as a polemic, as a debate. I

14 wasn't told anything personally. I wasn't personally addressed, but I do

15 remember that there was a debate between someone - I can't quite remember

16 who it was - but there were at least three persons from Prijedor taking

17 part in this debate or clash. Given that they were not happy, or at

18 least that was my understanding, with the way their requests had been

19 met, and some were especially unhappy with the president of Banja Luka

20 Municipality. I know that that's what the -- that was what the clash was

21 about. But that's where it ended. It was only a verbal clash.

22 Q. Okay. Did you become aware of Mr. Radic, the president of the

23 Banja Luka Municipality, making a trip to Omarska?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This clash, this polemic, this debate that you have been talking

Page 23654

1 about, did that occur before or after Mr. Radic's trip to Omarska?

2 A. I believe the meeting or the polemic - I may have used an

3 inappropriate word, whatever - I believe that it happened before. But

4 I'm not -- I'm no longer very clear about the dates. My assumption is

5 that it was before.

6 Q. Okay. During this debate, were you and other members of the

7 crisis staff informed of the conditions in Omarska?

8 A. No. No.

9 Q. Was there any indication to you or any other member of the crisis

10 staff about the maltreatment that was occurring in Omarska?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When did you finally get a picture about what was actually

13 happening in Omarska?

14 A. As I never went to any of the camps and collection centres, I got

15 my impressions from the delegation who had been there and through my

16 informal talk with Mr. Radic.

17 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Radic the first person to describe to you -- who

18 was the first person to describe to you the actual conditions at Omarska?

19 A. Mr. Radic.

20 Q. And what was his reaction? When you saw him, how was he reacting

21 to the conditions and of what he saw out there?

22 A. How should I describe his reaction? It was a negative reaction.

23 He expressed regret for having gone there. He expressed regret for

24 having gone there and seeing what he had seen.

25 Q. Let me go ahead. I'm going to talk to you about some of the

Page 23655

1 conclusions now of the ARK Crisis Staff. Those documents are before you.

2 The first document I'm going to talk to you about is P192. This is the

3 decision -- excuse me, the conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff, 13 May

4 1992. It's in -- page 17 of the English version --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we look at conclusion number 3, and it reads as follows: "On

7 Saturday, 16 May 1992, a delegation of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

8 consisting of Kupresanin, Erceg, Brdjanin, Radic, Sajic, Zupljanin,

9 Kondic, Koruga, Sukalo is to told talks in Knin with representatives of

10 the Serbian Republic of Krajina on establishing links and information and

11 the economy."

12 First of all --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I'm not quite sure that the

14 witness...

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He has got 192 tabbed in front of him.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I see the usher is -- have you found the excerpt?

17 Usher, has he found it, or not yet?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Sorry to interrupt you, but I

20 thought it was necessary.

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely no problem, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Sajic, please read that to yourself. I want to make sure

23 you've had enough time to look at that. Once you're done reading it,

24 please let me know because I want to ask you a question. I'm just

25 talking about number 3 which talks about a trip to Knin with other

Page 23656

1 members.

2 A. I've read it.

3 Q. Did you go on this trip as part of a delegation?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell us about that. Did you attend any meetings?

6 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure that all these people went.

7 I'm not sure. Secondly, we flew by helicopter. We landed at Srnetica, a

8 small abandoned place. It was abandoned during the previous state,

9 previously, for previous economic reasons. There were buildings there

10 that were in a state of delapidation. There was a railway there, a local

11 railway -- actually, a local train called Ciro, and we spent some time

12 there. I think it was a nice day. And we indulged in recreative

13 activities, and then we went to Knin. I think we went to a sports

14 ground, and then a part of the delegation had talks. They were presided

15 over by Mr. Brdjanin. And during that time, I had a walk in Knin. I

16 looked at windows, and at a given agreed time we returned. I spent some

17 time in that room, but sincerely speaking, I didn't take part in the

18 meeting, and I wouldn't remember what the topic of discussion had been.

19 Q. So just to clear this up, when you say "I spent some time in that

20 room," you're talking about the actual meetings?

21 A. I'm speaking of a room where we were to get together to return,

22 and not where actually a meeting was held.

23 Q. Do you remember on either the trip up or the trip back any

24 discussions about why this meeting was being held?

25 A. Well, the aim of the meeting was to establish links between the

Page 23657












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Page 23658

1 representatives of the Serbian Republic of Krajina and the Autonomous

2 Region of Krajina. I can't be sure, but I had the feeling that the

3 leadership from Pale condemned the meeting and, in fact, didn't pay much

4 attention to the substance of the meeting. I think those were the

5 comments following the meeting.

6 As far as I was concerned, it was merely a trip to go there and

7 come back and to have a nice time.

8 Q. You bring up the point that the leadership from Pale condemned

9 the meeting. Generally speaking, if you know, what was Pale's attitude

10 towards the ARK or the ARK Crisis Staff?

11 A. Well, I didn't take part in any of the talks, but I had a feeling

12 that they didn't wish any strong links between the two Krajina given the

13 time frame. That was my personal feeling.

14 Q. Okay. What was -- the leadership in Pale, what was their

15 attitude towards the ARK Crisis Staff? Did you ever see anyone from Pale

16 attend a meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff?

17 A. No. No, I didn't see anyone attending the meeting, at least the

18 ones I personally attended. The Minister of Defence would come to Banja

19 Luka, and there were to have been talks and I was to be present, given my

20 function as secretary of defence. I think that Mr. Brdjanin was present

21 also, perhaps Nikola Erceg and someone else. But the talks weren't held

22 on that particular day. I think the Minister of Defence spoke with the

23 President of the Assembly of Banja Luka. But my feeling was that it

24 didn't have a very positive view of the crisis staff. And the

25 reorganisation of the Secretariat for Defence ensued. The Minister of

Page 23659

1 Defence ordered that we restructure the Secretariat of Defence into

2 departments, Drvar, Banja Luka, Doboj.

3 Q. Well, I got you off track a little bit. Let's go back to the

4 conclusions of 13 May 1992, which are contained in Prosecutor's Exhibit

5 192. If you go down to conclusion number 7, that conclusion reads as

6 follows, 7: "The persons authorised to resolve all military and

7 political issues in the Autonomous Region of Krajina are Vojo Kupresanin

8 and Predrag Radic."

9 Do you remember how it is that this conclusion came to be

10 adopted?

11 A. No, I don't remember how it was adopted. I don't question that

12 it was not or was adopted, that it had some sense or that one could

13 expect something as a result. The political problems, well, Vojo

14 Kupresanin was there, and the president of the Assembly of Banja Luka.

15 That conclusion, in my view, and even now when I read it, is unrealistic

16 and it's not really feasible.

17 Q. Well, do you have any sense, any idea, why Kupresanin and Radic

18 were chosen to be the individuals resolving the military and political

19 issues within the Krajina? Why them?

20 A. Well, Kupresanin, well, I could understand because president of

21 the Assembly of Krajina. But as regards Radic, I'm not quite clear about

22 that. He may have had some authority, or perhaps Radic's authority in

23 view of the command of the corps. It could have been that.

24 Q. Okay. Let's go to the conclusion number 9 in that same document,

25 having to do with the transit of military convoys through the ARK, and it

Page 23660

1 requires that transit of military convoys be reported to you and that,

2 and I'm quoting now, "no military convoys coming from Banija are allowed

3 through, and those coming from Bihac can be allowed through with

4 Lieutenant Colonel Sajic."

5 What was the impact if any of conclusion number 9 dealing with

6 military convoys and giving you what appears to be certain

7 responsibilities?

8 A. Well, that conclusion is not realistic at all. The convoys are

9 controlled by the military, nothing to do with the secretary of defence,

10 someone who works in the administration, who has no relation with that.

11 I think that this was quite normal.

12 Can I read --

13 Q. Just read it to yourself so the interpreters -- if you're going

14 to read something, just read it to yourself so the interpreters don't

15 have to try to keep up with you.

16 A. I apologise.

17 My comment: The presidents of the National Defence Councils were

18 usually presidents of the municipalities. They could not control the

19 military convoys. They couldn't do that. They had no obligations to

20 inform me. I had no competence in that respect. This was not our

21 obligation, and my job has nothing to do with convoys.

22 Q. Okay. I've heard what you said, but even in spite of that, do

23 you recall ever getting phone calls or having to arrange for convoys and

24 approve convoys as reflected in this conclusion?

25 A. No.

Page 23661

1 Q. If we go down to the very next conclusion, conclusion number 10

2 also discusses you, and it reads as follows: "Lieutenant Colonel Sajic

3 is to produce an analysis of the situation at the Kosmos air force

4 complex." First of all, what's the Kosmos air force complex? What is

5 that?

6 A. The Kosmos air force complex is an institution which carried out

7 repairs of aircraft, and it was under the competence of the military

8 industry and the headquarters of the JNA. It is a company, a military

9 enterprise in which active-duty officers were employed, and civilians,

10 too, engineers, craftsmen, technicians, and so forth.

11 Q. Where is it located?

12 A. It is located -- well, above the street where I live from Banja

13 Luka in the direction of Jajce, on the way out of Banja Luka.

14 Q. What does it mean when it says that you are produce an analysis

15 of the situation at the complex?

16 A. I think that Mr. Brdjanin has information to the effect the state

17 of affairs was not good there in the sense of different complaints by

18 workers, in respect of the director who was a colonel or some other

19 military person. And since it was a military company, I didn't refuse to

20 carry out that task because I felt that I should speak with people in a

21 normal fashion, and I did conduct such a talk.

22 Q. And when you went out there, what did you find?

23 A. I talked with the director, and other people were also invited.

24 And he told me that many people were complaining about different

25 problems, their salaries. There was discontent among the workers. But

Page 23662

1 that was the situation because Kosmos usually paid out high salaries, had

2 good technology, but then it ceased to work because it no longer had to

3 make repairs for different countries outside of Yugoslavia. And the --

4 this was the consequence of such a situation, and I drew the conclusion

5 that actually no problems existed.

6 Q. Well, were you ordered to go out there?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How would you describe -- you said you were tasked to go out

9 there. Why is it that you went out there?

10 A. Because it was said at that meeting that the situation there was

11 not good. Then we decided who should go. It was proposed, whether it

12 was the president of the crisis staff or someone else, that Sajic should

13 go, because he was secretary of defence because he was familiar with

14 questions of the army and defence. And I accepted to go.

15 Q. Okay. I'd like for you to now turn to Exhibit P227. And I'm

16 going to direct you -- it's on the English page -- in the English version

17 it's on page 21. I'm talking about the conclusions of 18 May 1992.

18 Exhibit 227 is the very thick one in your notebook in front of you. And

19 I'm sorry, but I don't have the B/C/S page number.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: It's number 12, if that helps.

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't know if ... I can read the relevant

22 portion.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: ERN P0049909 in the B/C/S.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Let me just read it and I'll have him comment on

25 this.

Page 23663

1 Q. Mr. Sajic, at the meeting of 18 May 1992 a conclusion was

2 reached. I'm going to read it to you very carefully, very slowly, so

3 please listen. Conclusion number 1 reads as follows: "A delegation of

4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina consisting of Kupresanin, Erceg, Sajic,

5 and Zupljanin is to go to Pale and hold talks on defining the territory

6 towards Semberija."

7 Do you remember that conclusion, first of all, being entered?

8 A. I remember.

9 Q. Did you ever make the trip to Pale and hold these talks as

10 reflected in this conclusion?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And do you know if anyone ever went to Pale to hold these talks?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know why this conclusion was entered?

15 A. Well, I understood it to be a delegation to discuss about what

16 should be done next because there were hardly any links with Pale. They

17 practically did not exist at all.

18 Q. Links between who? Links between the ARK and Pale?

19 A. Well, that's how I understood that. I don't know to what extent

20 they maintained links. I had no connection with Pale, and I went to Pale

21 for the very first time when the war ended. My impression was that the

22 links were very bad because links went through the centre -- actually,

23 orders went through the centre. I was not in that delegation and I'm not

24 able to comment what was said there because I simply was not there.

25 Q. I want to ask you a question about your interview that you had

Page 23664

1 with the Prosecutors in Banja Luka. Do you remember being asked whether

2 the ARK Crisis Staff was the highest authority in the Krajina? Do you

3 remember that question being put to you?

4 A. I remember, yes.

5 Q. And I'll put the very same question to you. Was the ARK Crisis

6 Staff the highest authority in the Krajina?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And why do you say that?

9 A. For two reasons, I believe: First, because I was convinced that

10 the Pale leadership had some reservations, vis-a-vis Krajina, about the

11 Assembly and all other bodies there.

12 Q. Okay. Before you give us the second one, what caused you to come

13 to the conclusion that the leadership in Pale had reservations?

14 A. First, their presence in that period was practically nonexistent,

15 nonexistent. And secondly, I mentioned an event which -- I would speak

16 with the leadership of Krajina, and the very feeling -- it still prevails

17 today, that Pale is not very interested in Banja Luka. I think that they

18 do not think this very important, that the leadership was up there.

19 Q. Okay. I cut you off. You were saying -- you were giving two

20 reasons why the ARK Crisis Staff was not the highest authority. The

21 first one was that the leadership in Pale had reservations about the

22 Krajina. What was the second basis for your conclusion that the ARK

23 Crisis Staff was not the highest authority?

24 A. The second reason, some municipalities did not accept any of the

25 decisions and did not abide by the conclusions adopted there, first at

Page 23665

1 the assembly and then subsequently the conclusions from the crisis staff.

2 And the executive council, perhaps. I'm actually speaking about the

3 municipality of Banja Luka, that they ignored them, and that the

4 conclusions simply were not binding. It was something that I witnessed

5 there. Whether some municipalities did accept those conclusions, I don't

6 know.

7 Q. What was the most populous municipality in the Krajina?

8 A. Banja Luka.

9 Q. What was Predrag Radic's attitude towards the crisis staff, the

10 ARK Crisis Staff?

11 A. He didn't find it very important. He didn't -- he didn't really

12 abide by those decisions very much.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I have just a minute, Your Honours.

14 I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham. May I just inquire

16 because I'm just feeling a little bit confused now. At the beginning of

17 this sitting, we were each handed this pile of documents starting from

18 DB319.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Those documents have absolutely nothing to do

20 with this witness. Those are down the road.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That makes sense.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: As Mr. Ackerman would say: "Don't worry about

23 it now."

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 Mr. Nicholls, you could either start now with your cross, or we

Page 23666

1 could have the break now, whichever you prefer. We are 17 and a half

2 minutes away from the break.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I can just start, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, go ahead.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

6 Q. Sir, today you've - and yesterday - you've spoken the truth to

7 the best of your ability. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You told the truth, I suppose, when you spoke to the Defence team

10 earlier and were interviewed by them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you remember, I think - it wasn't me - but speaking to

13 members of the OTP in July 2001, and you spoke the truth all throughout

14 that interview as well, didn't you, just as you have here today and

15 yesterday?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I think I read in your statement to the Defence that you had

18 reviewed a portion of the transcript in your language from your interview

19 with the OTP, and you confirmed that your words had been faithfully

20 recorded; correct?

21 A. Yes. But maybe there were some mistranslations. On the whole,

22 though, that is true.

23 Q. Yes, well, from what you read, you said that everything had been

24 faithfully recorded; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23667

1 Q. And when you arrived here in The Hague to testify, you were given

2 a transcript in your language of the entire interview with the OTP;

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were allowed to review that in your hotel room?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Mr. Cunningham or somebody on the Defence team would have

8 asked you if there were any major problems with that or any errors you

9 saw; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, just a little bit of your background; this will be very

12 quick. You're now currently a professor; is that right? You're still

13 teaching courses on defence and protection?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I'm sorry. I thought you were. Are you now teaching courses on

16 defence as well as being manager of the hotel?

17 A. No, I no longer teach. I'm just the manager.

18 Q. All right. When did you stop teaching?

19 A. I never taught to begin with.

20 Q. You were in the TO or the VRS from 1968 through 1996; is that

21 correct?

22 A. From 1969, following the completion of my military service,

23 through 1992, June 1992. And after that, with the VRS.

24 Q. Okay. And then with the VRS until 1996; is that about right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23668

1 Q. So really, much of your adult life you have been a professional,

2 in the VRS, professional officer, and you were a professional in the

3 Territorial Defence.

4 A. As a reserve officer.

5 Q. But you were a professional. You took your duties seriously.

6 You were in there for about 30 years, and you did things as

7 professionally as possible; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And part of that you learned, probably right in your basic

10 service and all the way up until you retired from the VRS, the importance

11 of clear, precise written orders in the military chain of command.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And also, the importance of reporting up and down the chain to

14 tell when orders had been received and whether they had been carried out,

15 because the command needs to know that its orders have been acted upon;

16 correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And I think you'd agree with me that throughout your military

19 career, either with the TO or with the VRS, you followed the rules - you

20 were, as you said a professional - you were never involved in any kind of

21 paramilitaries or commanding rogue units; is that right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Now, the situation is similar, isn't it, with the police in the

24 sense that with the CSB, there need to be clear orders that are precise;

25 correct?

Page 23669












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23670

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you'd agree -- well, Stojan Zupljanin, I've read many of his

3 orders. You'd agree that he writes the type of precise, clear orders

4 which are necessary.

5 A. I did not read all of his orders, but that's how I imagine it to

6 be, yes.

7 Q. Now, before we move on, you attended the 16th assembly session on

8 the 12th of May, didn't you? That's the one where the VRS was formed.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I think actually we have a videotape of that event, and you were

11 sitting, were you not, next to General Talic in the front row who was

12 sitting next to General Mladic; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And basically, the entire RS leadership was present for that

15 meeting, including Karadzic; correct?

16 A. Yes. I am not sure whether the entire leadership, but on the

17 whole, yes.

18 Q. All right. I want to --

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, actually, Your Honour, maybe if I break now,

20 I can get my documents straight.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can break now.

22 Usher, please could you escort the witness. We'll reconvene in

23 25 minutes' time. Thank you.

24 Yes, there are these two motions that you referred to earlier on

25 today. Have you had an occasion --

Page 23671

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we didn't know anything about it

2 either. We haven't got them.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest you try and get hold of them. I can give

4 you mine, actually. And if there is no objection on your part, then we

5 will decide them orally as soon as we reconvene.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, until we see them, we can't possibly

7 say.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Chuqing, you can hand these to... It's easier this

9 way.

10 We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.


14 Q. Sir, let me -- this is not particularly important, but I just

15 want to clear it up. Yesterday, you were asked, page 31, "do you have a

16 university diploma, a university degree"? And the transcript says your

17 answer was: "Yes, I have a BA in economy, and my other occupation is a

18 teacher of national defence."

19 Now, is that correct or not, that your other --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I checked that myself earlier on, Mr. Nicholls. If

21 you continue reading, I think you more or less have an explanation.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: All right.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest you skip that and you -- feel

24 free to put the question. I'm not stopping you, but --

25 MR. NICHOLLS: It was a degree --

Page 23672

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I was on the same wavelength, and I checked it

2 earlier.


4 Q. Now, sir, I gave you a binder a moment ago and you've had about 5

5 minutes to look through it. That is a copy of the interview which you

6 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in July 2001; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your language.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I want to ask you now some questions which you've already --

11 about a topic you have been talking about, which are the ARK Crisis Staff

12 meetings and the ARK Crisis Staff in general.

13 Could you please go to page -- to tab 10; it's marked for you.

14 It's page 55 of the English. We don't need to necessarily read through

15 what all the questions and answers were, but your truthful statement in

16 this interview was that Brdjanin presided over all meetings of the ARK

17 Crisis Staff; correct?

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the leading question .

19 MR. NICHOLLS: This is cross.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is cross-examination --

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I apologise .

22 MR. NICHOLLS: We might have called him, but --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

24 You gave me a fright, Mr. Cunningham.


Page 23673

1 Q. You actually stated in that interview that the meetings couldn't

2 even start unless Mr. Brdjanin was present; correct?

3 Let me re-ask that question. I'll withdraw that.

4 What you stated is: "What I wanted to confirm that he was in

5 charge" -- he meaning Brdjanin -- "of all meetings. There was no one

6 else, neither Nikola Erceg or anyone else."

7 Correct? That's a truthful answer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. One of the other topics you talked about, and it wasn't entirely

10 lear, I don't think, so we can talk about it a bit more, is bout how

11 other -- people other than the named members of the crisis staff, ARK

12 Crisis Staff, which you discussed at length with Mr. Cunningham, attended

13 these meetings. If you go to tab 11 in your binder, you'll get to the

14 section we're talking about. You don't need to refer to it unless you

15 want to. But you were at several meetings, were you not, where in

16 addition to the core to the ARK Crisis Staff membership, municipal

17 presidents attended meetings; correct?

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Could I get an English page number, please.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, that's page 59.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


22 Q. And I'm talking now about the corrected transcript. We had one

23 come back late. We had somebody listen to it again to make sure.

24 Did you understand my question, sir? Do you remember it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23674

1 Q. All right. So the answer is yes, you remember these people from

2 ther municipalities attending; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, in these meetings you stated in your opinion these meetings

5 were more individually directed by Mr. Brdjo. Right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You remember Nedeljko Rasula attending these meetings, don't you?

8 A. Once, yes. One meeting.

9 Q. And what was his position during 1992? During the time that he

10 was attending ARK Crisis Staff meetings.

11 A. I think he was the president of the Sanski Most Municipality

12 Assembly, if I remember correctly.

13 Q. And he was president of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff, wasn't he?

14 Municipal crisis staff?

15 A. My understanding was that he was the president of the Assembly.

16 Q. All right. Did you also know that he was president of the crisis

17 staff during the time that the crisis staff or war staff of Sanski Most

18 Municipality was in existence?

19 A. You have crisis staff on the one hand and war staff on the other.

20 This is from my area of expertise, and these two are different. But very

21 often these two are confused in documents.

22 As a rule, according to the regulations then in force, it should

23 have been the president of the executive council. But it's quite

24 possible that it was the president of the assembly. I assume that it

25 was.

Page 23675

1 Q. All right. Now, you were asked about the representatives from

2 Prijedor who you saw at these meetings. You weren't asked the names.

3 Looking at your statement, does it refresh your memory? You remember

4 now, who was there now, don't you? Dr. Milomir Stakic was present,

5 wasn't he?

6 A. Yes. I stated then and I confirm now that it is my belief that

7 there were three persons from Prijedor whom I had not known before then,

8 and I think that those were the people. In my statement to you, I think

9 what I said was correct: Stakic, Kuruzovic, Drljaca. I think those were

10 the three persons.

11 Q. Thank you. And you know that -- you remember that Drljaca was

12 the chief of police?

13 A. I didn't know at the time, but yes, I am aware of that.

14 Q. You also, and it's a little further on in the interview, you

15 remember a Mr. Vasic from Prnjavor attending the meetings; correct?

16 A. I know Vasic. I don't know whether he attended that meeting. I

17 don't think I said that. But if indeed I said that, then probably I

18 remembered. He was, however, the president of Prnjavor Municipality at

19 the time.

20 Q. All right. And again, there were others whose names you don't

21 remember who were present. This isn't an exhaustive list that we've just

22 gone through.

23 You need to answer verbally. I saw you nodding your head.

24 A. Yes, there were others.

25 Q. Could you go to page -- tab 19, page 70 of the English. You

Page 23676

1 talked about this on direct. There were quite a number of meetings that

2 you know of of the ARK Crisis Staff, and the way these meetings were

3 scheduled, you stated, is as follows: "It was up to Radoslav Brdjanin

4 when he felt the need to organise or summon people to attend a meeting";

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And these meetings, you would find out about the meeting via a

8 telephone call.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you said in your interview - it's at tab 20 if you want to

11 look at it - and that's on the next page, for counsel, that these were

12 often phone calls on short notice to attend a meeting.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Go back to tab 16, please. This is on page 65 of the English.

15 Now, very briefly, after these meetings had been held and people had

16 spoken, Brdjanin formulated the conclusion or decision in relation to

17 what had been discussed; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if you look at tab 17 - it should be very nearby - I want to

20 talk a little bit just briefly about what was discussed at these

21 meetings. One of the first meetings or the first meeting you went to was

22 on the 5th of May 1992. Right? About a day after you signed that order

23 that we were talking about the other day.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. One of the topics that was discussed extensively at that first

Page 23677

1 meeting was the mobilisation process, the mobilisation which had just

2 been ordered. That's the order you had passed down from the ministry at

3 the republic level.

4 A. The order on mobilisation was issued the day before. I still

5 believe that we did not discuss mobilisation very much at this meeting,

6 but we did probably discuss the disarmament of paramilitary units.

7 However, I believe that the order on mobilisation was not on the agenda.

8 As a rule, an order is not discussed once it has been issued and handed

9 out. It is simply carried out.

10 Q. All right. And you jumped ahead, but that's fine. Disarmament

11 was something which was, as you stated in the interview, "surely

12 discussed" at that first meeting. Right? That's what you were just

13 talking about?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in fact, the disarmament issue was one that was discussed

16 frequently at ARK Crisis Staff meetings all through May, wasn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the disarmament process went on all through May and into

19 June; correct?

20 A. Yes. Even now.

21 Q. Okay. Even now, they're not enforcing or talking about anything

22 to do with your May 4th order, are they? Are they still running around

23 looking for paramilitaries based on your order?

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to that question.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: He said even now.

Page 23678

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: We can move on.

3 Q. I don't want to go through them all, but -- well, we can go

4 through them quickly. On the 8th of May, there was -- let me give you

5 P227.

6 All right. Now, what you should have in front of you is the

7 Official Gazette of the ARK from 5th of June 1992. Is that what you

8 have?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the first item on the cover page is the 4th of May order with

11 your signature on it; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you go to conclusion number 4 - I'm sorry I can't give you the

14 page - that's the 8th of May conclusions. Item 3 is about the

15 disarmament of paramilitaries and states that "the strictest of sanctions

16 will be imposed on those who refuse to return weapons."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'll just ask you quickly; it's okay if you do or do not. Do you

19 remember being present at the meeting where this conclusion was passed?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Let me show you P182. Keep that binder with you.

22 This is an ARK Crisis Staff conclusion -- decision, sorry, from

23 the 9th of May, the one which states: "All the decisions and conclusions

24 of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina are binding for

25 all municipalities." Now, this decision makes all the other decisions -

Page 23679

1 it's clear, it's very simply written - binding, doesn't it? That's what

2 it states.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, could you look at the 9th of May ARK decision,

5 which is in your book. It's number 6.

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Nicholls, do you know which page of the

7 English translation it's on?

8 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, because I'm using a different ERN copy.

9 It's number 6, 9th of May.

10 Q. This is, again, a conclusion about the disarmament process, and

11 the deadline is again stated. "The weapons should be turned over to the

12 nearest public security station by 1500 hours on 11 May at the latest.

13 Firm action shall be taken against those who refuse to return weapons."

14 MR. NICHOLLS: It's page 13 of the English, Mr. Cunningham.

15 Q. So again, another discussion and conclusion drawn about the

16 disarmament process; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you go to number 7, which is the 11th of May. This is on

19 page 14 of the English -- 15 of the English.

20 This conclusion is little more elaborate. "The deadline for the

21 surrender of illegally acquired weapons has been extended to 14 May 1992

22 at 2400 hours."

23 The next paragraph, I won't read it all because the Chamber has

24 seen this many times before. But it has been extended on the basis of

25 negotiations of citizens of all nationalities. And then, "After the

Page 23680

1 deadline expires, weapons will be confiscated by employees of the

2 Security Services Centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and severe

3 sanctions will be imposed on those who ignore the call of the crisis

4 staff."

5 Do you remember the discussions about extending the deadline from

6 the 11th of May to the 14th of May?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. We're almost done. If you look at the 13th of May,

9 that's conclusion 9, page 17 of the English. Number 4: "The Security

10 Services Centre of Banja Luka is to fully implement the decisions of the

11 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina on the disarming of

12 illegal paramilitary units and individuals who are in possession of

13 weapons and ammunition."

14 This order talks about disarming paramilitaries and units and

15 individuals; correct? It's a little bit different.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And we just saw this. This is the same conclusion that

18 Mr. Cunningham asked you about and your visit to the Kosmos air force

19 complex.

20 Could you go to the 14th of May. That's decision number 10.

21 Take a second and read that. Again:

22 "Security Services Centre of the ARK is to fully implement the

23 decision of the Crisis Staff of the ARK on disarming paramilitary units

24 or individuals in unlawful possession of weapons and ammunition. Weapons

25 are to be surrendered to police stations. Presidents of parties and

Page 23681












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23682

1 community leaders should use their authority to influence citizens to

2 return weapons."

3 So again, another discussion and conclusion to implement the ARK

4 decision to disarm; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Last one for now: Number 12 of the 18th of May, conclusions 3,

7 4, and 5. Number 3: "Illegal attained weapons will be taken away by

8 members of the military and civilian police."

9 Now, I think that's something you talked about yesterday, that

10 that is, in fact, entirely correct in your view, that it would be the

11 military and civilian police who would conduct this disarming exercise;

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Number 4: "All formations that are not in the army of the

15 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the Banja Luka Security

16 Services Centre and are in the Autonomous Region of Krajina are

17 considered paramilitary formations and must be disarmed." That's sort of

18 in the negative way of defining all the people who are going to be

19 disarmed, isn't it? If you're not in the army or the police, you're a

20 paramilitary; you're going to be disarmed; right?

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm object to the form of the question --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- because that's not what's stated there. It

24 talks about formations, not individuals.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think it's a fair question, and he has answered

Page 23683

1 it. He read the paragraph.

2 Q. Let's read the next part. "All those who are not part of the

3 armed force of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina or its police

4 must return their weapons." That's what it says there, sir, doesn't it?

5 That's what it says, doesn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'd like to go back to your interview for a minute. Tab 18, sir,

8 page 66 of the English. During your interview with us, you talked

9 honestly about who was disarmed. You were asked, talking about the order

10 on mobilisation and disarmament: "But the effect was this, wasn't it?

11 That it was only the Muslims and Croats who were having their weapons

12 removed from them."

13 Your answer: "Mainly. You cannot say that it was a hundred per

14 cent like that, but this statement can stand."

15 And you were telling the truth, weren't you, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were then asked about whether even those who had legal

18 permits for hunting rifles and pistols had those weapons removed, and you

19 told a story -- not a story, but you told as an example about a man you

20 knew, a Muslim, who was disarmed by the police. He asked but it in

21 advance "What do I do if the police come?". You said: "Things happen.

22 As they happened, he referred to me. He mentioned my name. It didn't

23 help. They removed his weapon." Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were asked: "This gentleman was a Muslim." And you

Page 23684

1 said: "Yes. Yes, a good Muslim."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that in Banja Luka, this friend of yours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you go to tab 21 of your interview, sir. Now, here's where

6 you talk about how camps were discussed at the ARK Crisis Staff meetings.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can I get an English page number, please.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. Page 71.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.


11 Q. Now, here's the question you were asked: "There was never any

12 time when meetings were held at 8.30 in the morning on a regular basis

13 with a report being sent to Mr. Karadzic about what was discussed,"

14 talking about ARK Crisis Staff meetings.

15 Your answer was: "I think that at one period, but I don't know

16 which one, and the topic was predominantly camps, or centres, as they

17 were called. Some people called them camps, some centres. Then I had

18 the impression that such meetings of municipal presidents were supposed

19 to be held, I think, at Mondays at 8.00."

20 Do you remember giving that answer, sir?

21 A. Yes, but -- but the answer was a longer one. We spoke about

22 camps, economic problems, problems of supplies with fuels, and I said

23 that today also.

24 Q. Let me stop you. I wasn't trying to imply that that was the only

25 topic. I'm just reading you what your answer was, that you remembered

Page 23685

1 camps being the topic --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- at one of these Monday morning meetings. And I think you're

4 right about it being a Monday morning meeting because isn't it a fact

5 that the presidents of the various municipalities of the autonomous

6 region, either of the municipalities or of the crisis staffs in those

7 municipalities, came to meetings in Banja Luka of the ARK Crisis Staff on

8 Monday mornings so that on Tuesday mornings they could brief their

9 municipalities on what was concluded or discussed?

10 A. Yes, I believe it was Monday.

11 Q. And you stated later on, it's not particularly important, that

12 you remembered that these Monday meetings were regular. Right? On page

13 72 of the English.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you talked about these camps -- when you talked about

16 the meeting where camps were discussed, you said: "I was once present at

17 the meeting when discussion was about prisoners." And then, as you said,

18 there were other topics.

19 Could you go to tab 23. That's on page 73, where I'm going.

20 That's where you start talking about the visit to the collection

21 centres, or camps. And you said: "Some of the members of the crisis

22 staff visited those camps and collection centres." Plural. "This is

23 primarily about the top few people." And then you go on to say who those

24 top few people are. And state that you think it was Radic, Vukic, and

25 Brdjanin who visited the camps; right?

Page 23686

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you said "camps" and "centres." Which other camps or

3 centres besides Omarska did they visit?

4 A. I can't find it here, but I was alluding to Omarska because I was

5 only aware of that visit, and I only know the report about Omarska.

6 Well, allow me to read it.

7 Q. Take your time to read that, and while you're doing it, think

8 about whether you ever heard or knew about - I'm not talking about you

9 going there with them; I know you said I never visited any camps yourself

10 - whether Mr. Brdjanin or Mr. Kupresanin visited Manteca, the 1KK

11 prisoner camp --

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Let me finish the question. Whether Mr. Brdjanin or

14 Mr. Kupresanin visited the 1KK prisoner camp that was in Banja Luka? Do

15 you know whether they visited there, whether together, separately, or in

16 any way?

17 A. I do not know.

18 Q. Now, you talked also about how Mr. Radic gave you his impression

19 of his visit to Omarska. Who else was present during that -- during that

20 meeting, or when he was talking to you about what he thought about

21 Omarska, and saw there?

22 A. I think that it was only me. I don't remember anyone else being

23 present.

24 Q. The -- you also talked about how when the people from Prijedor

25 came and complained or argued with Mr. Radic, that was about the

Page 23687

1 conditions in Omarska, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you said something on direct about, well, you know, it was

4 the usual problem of -- usual problems you get with collection centres.

5 How do you know what the usual problems with collection centres are? You

6 said that as though you knew a lot about running a collection centre and

7 what the problems would be.

8 A. I simply believe the problems of the collection centres are

9 identical in all centres, problem of food, accommodations, medical care.

10 These are some fundamental problems that could exist there. It is not a

11 conclusion based on my experience with those centres. The problems that

12 occur when a larger number of people assemble at a certain point and in

13 collection centres, the situation is even more difficult.

14 Q. During that conversation with the Prijedor representatives, which

15 turned into an argument, Radoslav Brdjanin was chairing that meeting as

16 well, wasn't he?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Go to tab 27, sir. It's page 82.

19 I want to ask you a little bit about some of the things

20 Mr. Brdjanin said when he was president of the ARK Crisis Staff, and

21 perhaps just before he became president as well. One of the things you

22 were asked about in this interview that you remembered was hearing from

23 other Serbs that Mr. Brdjanin had said in the media -- doesn't say

24 whether it's TV or radio -- that only a thousand Muslims will be allowed

25 to stay in Banja Luka and that those thousand Muslims will be comprised

Page 23688

1 of elderly people who will be put to cleaning the streets.

2 Now, do you remember hearing about that from Serbs in Banja Luka,

3 that they had heard Mr. Brdjanin say that in the media, as you state in

4 the interview?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you remember, don't you -- you must remember from being in

7 Banja Luka all of -- through April, May, June, July, and earlier, of

8 1992 -- that that wasn't an isolated comment. Mr. Brdjanin was famous,

9 infamous, whatever, known, for making extremely nationalistic, disturbing

10 comments along this nature, along the lines of this comment about

11 Muslims, Bosniaks.

12 A. I didn't understand the question.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You put too many adjectives together. I think you

14 should reduce them a little bit or take them one by one.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Let me just take you to your interview. That was

16 a bad question.

17 Q. Sir, I apologise.

18 When you were asked -- this was at tab 28 for you, sir, page

19 83 -- about Vukic saying the same sorts of things as Brdjanin in the

20 media, your response was: "Well, there was a group, the two of them, I

21 don't know who else. They wanted to show themselves, expose themselves

22 on television and radio." And then you say how these words weren't

23 really thought through; right? That's what you said.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what you're talking about there is the extreme speeches that

Page 23689

1 Brdjanin made in the media; right?

2 A. Much like the other politicians.

3 Q. But you picked him and Vukic and described it as the two of them,

4 and you don't know who else, who wanted to show themselves on TV and

5 radio. That's what you were talking about, even if other politicians

6 were also saying awful, horrible, racist, extreme things.

7 A. Well, you asked me about the two of them. Well, now that you're

8 asking me about the others of other nationalities, they also did the

9 same.

10 Q. I'll take your word on that. I'm only asking you - let's move on

11 from this. You can confirm to me, can't you, that Mr. Brdjanin made

12 those types of speeches in the media?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were then asked: "Those sorts of words would put fear

15 into the minds of Muslims or Croats who were listening to them, wouldn't

16 they?" And your answer was: "Of course."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then you were asked whether the point of this, of these speeches,

19 was to frighten Muslims and Croats into leaving, and you said: "Well, I

20 don't know whether that was the idea, but certainly they were afraid."

21 So again, you're confirming that these speeches frightened the Bosniak

22 and Croat populations.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were then asked: "Isn't it true that Serbs who committed

25 crimes against Muslims and Croats were encouraged by the comments that

Page 23690

1 were made by Radoslav Brdjanin and other SDS leaders against Muslims and

2 Croats?"

3 And you gave a fairly detailed, articulate answer. You said:

4 "First, my thing or first opinion that I have is that the

5 perpetrators of crimes, where crimes were committed -- and we know in

6 which municipalities it was even more obvious or it happened -- mostly

7 those perpetrators must have been people who were inclined to commit such

8 crimes. And they would always ask for certain -- some justification for

9 the things they carried out, they committed, justification from someone

10 else. So which means that such comments were quite useful for them, were

11 welcome."

12 Right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So these speeches didn't just frighten people; they gave

15 justification to the very criminals that these non-Serbs were afraid of.

16 A. No, I don't believe that.

17 Q. Well, you just said that they were welcome because they were a

18 justification to the persons committing the crimes; right?

19 A. Justification, but the speeches were not intended for them to do

20 such things. Well, this was being made use of by criminals of all kinds.

21 Q. Exactly. It was being made use of. And you don't know exactly

22 what intent Mr. Brdjanin had in his mind when he made a speech saying

23 that only a thousand Muslims could remain and they would be old and have

24 to clean the streets, do you?

25 You said in your answer: "Well, you couldn't follow their

Page 23691

1 minds."

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. All right. I'm going to move to a different topic now.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: One moment, Your Honour.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, can I bring a correction in the

6 transcript.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Page 53, line 4.


10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He says, and the transcript reflects "well, this

11 was being made use of by criminals of all kinds." And I'm told that he

12 added: "In the whole of BiH."

13 So if the Court would want to confirm that with him.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, do you remember that which Mr. Cunningham just

15 remarked?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


19 Q. All right, sir, I'm now going to talk about the --

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd just like to ask, who is supplying the Defence

22 with these corrections? Is it the accused or is it the assistant - I'm

23 sorry, I forget your name, sir - who speaks?

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's not Mr. Brdjanin because Mr. Brdjanin

25 doesn't hand me anything during trial. It's obviously Mr. Vujic who is

Page 23692

1 watching the transcript and listening to the transcript.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not obvious, I'm sorry. Because I've seen

3 -- and there's nothing wrong with it -- But I've seen Mr. Brdjanin pass

4 notes to you through the security guard to Mr. Vujic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: He has every right to pass notes.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: And I agree with that, that he has every right to

7 pass notes, but it's not true that he never does.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was whether it was suggested to

9 the witness that in addition to what we have in the transcript, there was

10 something else that he had stated, and he confirmed that he had stated

11 that.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I know. I'm just trying to know where it comes

13 rom.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, Judge Janu who understands the language a

15 little bit confirms it.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: I wasn't doubting the accuracy of the correction,

17 just where it was coming from.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's avoid further incidents in the future. Let's

19 move ahead, Mr. Nicholls.


21 Q. P421, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say P421?

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, P2421.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It should be P2421. It's again wrong -- it's

25 corrected now. Thank you.

Page 23693












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Page 23694

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honours, I have some of these in the

2 witness's language; some I don't. I'm trying to put them together.

3 Q. Now, take a moment to look at that. You've seen this document

4 before, haven't you, sir?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Well, this is a decision of the presidency signed by Dr. Plavsic

7 and Dr. Koljevic, 12th of May -- excuse me, 15th of April, 1992 a

8 decision stating that a state of imminent threat of war is hereby

9 declared; and two, the mobilisation of the TO in the whole territory of

10 Serbian BH is hereby ordered. All right?

11 Perhaps you haven't seen this before.

12 A. No, I haven't.

13 Q. Could I show you P153, please. While they're getting that --

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's in his notebook that I prepared in the

15 grey binder.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: -- does the tab say 153?

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It should just say 153 on it.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.

20 Q. Now, this is - thank you, you talked about this yesterday - this

21 is the decision by National Defence Minister Subotic of the 16th of

22 April. You've seen this document before.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It is addressed to the governments of the autonomous region and

25 the SAO Serbian autonomous districts of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

Page 23695

1 and Herzegovina and to all Serbian municipalities; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This refers, does it not, to the decision the day earlier we just

4 talked about declaring an imminent threat of war? Take a look at it.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, if you could go to section 2, the explanation, first part

7 states: "Municipal TOs which have functioned well up to now will

8 continue in their existing formation and composition," and that it is

9 intended to establish TO staffs or that TO staffs should be established

10 in newly established Serbian municipalities along the same lines; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Number 2, "setting up of the district staffs and districts, that

13 is placed under the jurisdiction of the Government of the SAOs, including

14 the Autonomous Region of Krajina"; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Number 3, "the declaration of a state of imminent threat of war

17 shall entail the taking of all necessary measures appropriate to the

18 situation and in accordance with the specific situation in any given

19 territory."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's recognising, isn't it, that in different areas and

22 different circumstances, different action may be needed to be taken to

23 accomplish what's set forth in this decision.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you look at the last line above Mr. Subotic's signature, it

Page 23696

1 states, and this is within the context of the general mobilisation: "In

2 the preparations for training and deployment of the TO units, effect

3 cooperation with the JNA units and, where possible, establish unified

4 command."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Because --

7 A. If I may.

8 Q. Well, let me ask you a question and then you can comment. You

9 can answer it. This is four days after -- well, this is in a time of

10 great turbulence in the Krajina region; correct? It's before the

11 establishment of the VRS, 16th of April.

12 A. 16th of April. It was the 12th of May, the date that the VRS was

13 established.

14 Q. Right. What I'm saying is this is earlier, it's before the

15 establishment of the VRS. It's a time of uncertainty, problems, in the

16 Krajina.

17 A. Relatively speaking.

18 Q. All right. Now, let me take you to P1182.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'd ask that the witness be allowed

20 to make the comment that Mr. Nicholls said he could answer -- he could

21 make after he answered the question.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I thought he did answer my question, that it

23 was in his words a relative time of turbulence and problems. And I think

24 from your side we've heard about that.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking

Page 23697

1 about at page 57, line 11, in the context of your asking about the final

2 line in the general mobilisation order, he says "if I may." You then

3 say, "Let me ask you a question. Then you can comment." I don't think

4 he ever got the chance to comment.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham is right, because you interrupted

6 him just at the moment when he was going to tell us something else

7 regarding the previous question, that is the part which established that

8 wherever possible, there should be cooperation with JNA units.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: All right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we should give him the opportunity to give us

11 any further comment that he might have or he may have on the matter.

12 Would you like to add something to --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16 I listened to the way you read the decision, and I answered yes,

17 that's what it says. Item 3 -- item 2 rather, on the establishment of

18 district staffs, placing them under the jurisdiction of the SAO

19 Government, according to the principle information of previous district

20 staffs, the same applies to the ARK of Bosanska Krajina, I must comment

21 on this.

22 This applied to district staffs, zone staffs of the Territorial

23 Defence, and this never began to function. This never began to operate.

24 That's one thing I would like to point out in connection with this, in

25 order for me to comment on this decision. But this decision was never

Page 23698

1 put into effect. The district staffs were never under the control of the

2 ARK.

3 It's a very essential distinction, I suppose.


5 Q. Well, it talks about setting up of district staffs. There was a

6 district Banja Luka TO staff at this time; right?

7 A. Yes, but it was not under the control of the ARK. And the

8 military never submitted to the control of the authorities at this level.

9 This changes the gist of the whole matter. Yes, this had been envisaged

10 for the Territorial Defence to take over, for this to be the Army of

11 Republika Srpska. But later on, the Army of Republika Srpska was

12 established along the lines of the principle of the supreme staff, Main

13 Staff, with Mladic, and that's the meeting that I talked about.

14 My intention was to clarify.

15 Q. All right. We're going to talk more about the TO and the topic

16 you talked about yesterday, the changeover into light brigades which is

17 when they became, formally, completely integrated into the VRS.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. And we will talk later as well about what influence

20 municipalities may have had over their local TOs.

21 Now, let's about to P1182. This is almost -- this is the same

22 document you looked at earlier. I can't remember what the exhibit number

23 is. This is a corrected version of P167.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: The correction, I believe, Your Honours, is this

25 one correctly states "regional secretariat for National Defence" in the

Page 23699

1 heading, rather than "Republic."

2 Q. Now, this is your order that you have based on the Subotic order

3 we have just talked about.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This is passed down to the municipal level.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That's what you were talking about when you said you were a link

8 yesterday, partly.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The first line states that: "Pursuant to the decision of the

11 Ministry of National Defence" - P153 that we were jus looking at of 16th

12 of April - "and an assessment of the situation on the ground, the

13 following decision is being set forth..." Right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, your Hotel Palace, if I remember, it has got a nice

16 cafeteria out front? In the summer, there are umbrellas and you can have

17 a nectar, pivo; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if I go in there and say to the waiter I want a nectar and a

20 kisela minerale, he's going to bring me a beer and a mineral water.

21 Right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Because that means in addition to, it means one and another plus

24 something else. Right?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you should lead the witness straight to the

Page 23700

1 question --

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm just trying to avoid --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you're getting him confused. He's a little

4 bit baffled.


6 Q. So your order is pursuant to the decision we've just looked at

7 and, in addition to that, your assessment of the situation on the ground

8 in the Autonomous Region of Krajina; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that goes back to what we talked about, explanation

11 subparagraph 3 of Subotic's order saying "take a look at the situation in

12 your territory and take appropriate action." Right? We just talked

13 about that.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the additions you've made, Mr. Cunningham pointed out

16 yesterday that there is this decision that disarmament will take place by

17 1500 hours on 11 of May. That's number 5. But you've also -- what has

18 also been added to this decision, number 4, is the curfew; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at the very end, you've pointed out in number 4 that the

21 presidents of the councils for National Defence shall be held responsible

22 for the implementing of this decision. They shall therefore be given

23 full authority for the purposes of carrying out the decision. Right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, it's called a decision, but this is mandatory, isn't it?

Page 23701

1 This is the same as an order. This has to be carried out. You're

2 sending this out as secretary of the Secretariat for Defence.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'd like you to look at P166, please, sir.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's not in the book.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.


8 Q. Now, take a moment and look at that, sir. This is the Banja Luka

9 CSB dispatch of the 4th of May 1992. It's to the chiefs of all public

10 security stations. It states: "We have received a dispatch from the

11 Government of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina in Banja Luka,

12 which we hereby forward to you in full." And what follows verbatim is

13 your decision we just talked about of the 4th of May; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So we know that on the same day or very close to the same day as

16 you made your decision, it was sent to all the police stations in the

17 ARK.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Look at the bottom, underneath where your order ends, there's --

20 a -- additional writing from Stojan Zupljanin.

21 "With regard to the above-mentioned, it is necessary that you

22 immediately and without delay undertake the necessary activities

23 described in the above decision and report to us about this as well as

24 about all events of interest for the security situation ..."

25 And it goes on to talk about the curfew and says that the chiefs

Page 23702

1 of the public security stations are personally responsible for the

2 implementation of this decision.

3 So this is one of those pretty clear, precise orders from

4 Mr. Zupljanin that I was talking about -- we were talking about right at

5 the beginning of your cross-examination; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'd like you to look at P1190, please. And I'll tell you, sir,

8 I'm not going to surprise you at all; I'm going to show where your order

9 went and how it was acted upon.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: We have a revised translation, Your Honour, that's

11 not on the ELMO.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: How far is it going to complicate our lives?

13 That's what I want to know, Mr. Nicholls.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think it's going to matter.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's not going to matter, let's proceed.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: We can scroll down. No, it's fine.

17 Q. Now, here we are the next day, the 5th of May, at the National

18 Defence Council meeting of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, headed by

19 its president, Dr. Milomir Stakic.

20 Conclusion 2. Can you look at that, please, sir.

21 "Mobilisation orders following from the decision of the

22 Autonomous Region Assembly are to be carried out when the actual

23 situation in the municipality renders it necessary, in accordance with

24 requirements and a special plan, through call-up papers issued by the

25 municipal secretariat for national defence."

Page 23703

1 And if you go to number 7, it's right towards the end of the

2 document:

3 "All paramilitary formations and individuals who possess weapons

4 and ammunition illegally are called upon to surrender them immediately

5 and not later than 11 May 1992 at 1500 hours" at the police station - I'm

6 paraphrasing. After this period, the relevant organs will start searches

7 and seizures of any such weapons and ammunition and will apply the most

8 rigorous sanctions.

9 So here, we can see that your order was, in fact, sent to

10 Prijedor and was discussed at the National Defence Council meeting, and

11 conclusions were made based on it. And by "your order," I'm just talking

12 about that document from the 4th of May which Mr. Zupljanin sent out;

13 right?

14 A. As for the subject, yes. But if I may be allowed to explain.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mobilisation had been ordered

17 by the defence minister and then passed with an addendum which we see

18 here, which was signed by me, the Secretary of the Autonomous Region of

19 Krajina. The essence was to mobilise units, and as for my assessment, to

20 disarm paramilitary individuals and so on and so forth. This is not an

21 order by the Assembly of the ARK or by an official body or executive

22 council of the ARK. This was for the command, and the Security Services

23 Centre also took place in it because they saw their own duties and tasks

24 involved in terms of collecting weapons, presumably, and the curfew.

25 This document that I see in front of me, in the conclusions

Page 23704

1 Milomir Stakic says the following: This is not a decision of the

2 Assembly of Bosanska Krajina; this is a decision of the defence minister

3 which I later postponed.

4 This is proof that in a confused situation, people drew different

5 conclusions and based their decisions on a number of different

6 conclusions. This order should first and foremost have been carried out

7 with no further ado to begin with.

8 Thank you very much for allowing me to explain.


10 Q. And obviously, rather than Bogdan Subotic sending this order, his

11 order directly to Prijedor, he sent it out; and as you say, additions

12 were made, including the curfew, the disarmament provisions, and it's

13 then sent to Prijedor; right?

14 You nodded. You need to answer verbally.

15 A. Yes, yes, yes.

16 Q. Okay. And apparently we can see here that the addition about

17 disarmament was accepted and was going to be acted upon right away, as

18 you said it should have been; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'd like to show you P180, sir. You can have my copy if Denise

21 can get me another one.

22 This is the article from Oslobodenje from 9th of May 1992. We've

23 already talked about the chain of ARK Crisis Staff disarmament

24 conclusions from 8th and 9th May. Take a look at that, sir. It's the --

25 there's a lot on your page in B/C/S, but I'm interested in the one with

Page 23705












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13 English transcripts.













Page 23706

1 the headline "Weapons must be returned." It's a short article.

2 It states: "Banja Luka, 8th May. Members of paramilitary units

3 and individuals from the area of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska

4 Krajina must return all weapons and other means of combat in their

5 illegal possession by 11 May. Stated today, Radoslav Brdjanin, the

6 commander of the war staff of Bosanska Krajina."

7 And then Mr. Brdjanin continues to talk about the mobilisation

8 being consistently implemented and some other issues. That's what it

9 says in your copy; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. But --

13 Q. You can make your comment in a minute. I'm just trying to make

14 it clear now that we're both reading the same words.

15 Now, Mr. Brdjanin, as president of the ARK Crisis Staff, he's

16 going out in the media and letting everybody know about this weapons

17 deadline under his capacity, it says here, as commander of the war staff.

18 Right? That's what he's doing; he's making sure that that deadline

19 issued in the May 4th order, passed down through Mr. Zupljanin to the

20 CSBs, discussed in Prijedor, is also being broadcast through the print

21 media.

22 A. Should I answer this?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. I don't understand the question.

25 Q. All right. I can make it much shorter.

Page 23707

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.


3 Q. Mr. Brdjanin in his capacity as president of the ARK Crisis Staff

4 is emphasising in the media the importance that these weapons need to be

5 returned by the 11 May deadline. Right? That's what he's doing.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, if you have your comment -- we're going to take

8 a break soon, but if you have a comment you feel you need to make, go

9 ahead.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General mobilisation had been

12 declared. When I say "general," this means that it could be announced in

13 any way at all. In this case, it was an order. Whoever declares general

14 mobilisation, there's no mistake, no error involved. It's just that war

15 staff, crisis staff, these two concepts are being confused here in the

16 media. Are we talking about a war staff or a crisis staff? Because it

17 is my submission that these are two different concepts and two different

18 bodies. But I don't have to comment on that.

19 So whoever could appear, whoever could insist that the order be

20 carried out, this would indeed have been very beneficial for the order to

21 be carried out because the purpose of the order was to be carried out.


23 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I've lost track of the breaking schedule.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We started at 7 minutes past 4.00, but we could

25 actually start our break here.

Page 23708

1 MR. NICHOLLS: How late are we going, Your Honour? I have been

2 asked.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: My intention was to go right up to 7.00. But it

4 depends. How much longer do you think you require?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd hate to guess right now. I won't finish

6 today. If we take the break now, I can see ...

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Usher, could you please escort the

8 witness out. We are going to have another break.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 23709












12 Pages 23709 to 23713 redacted, private session














Page 23714

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: In paragraph 4 of the sixth amended indictment, you

5 still specifically retain mention of the three municipalities, Bihac,

6 Ripac, and Bosanska Dubica and Bosanska Krupa. It wouldn't itself be a

7 problem to us because it's neither hot nor cold, but then there are

8 several other paragraphs throughout the indictment that impute a crime to

9 the accused, specifically referring to that crime being committed in the

10 municipalities mentioned in paragraph 4. So --

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason it was left in is because

12 paragraph 4 is -- was a description of the autonomous region, and we're

13 told by Mr. Ackerman that he's going to be calling evidence from Dubica

14 and Gradiska. And there's no doubt about it. That's the case, although

15 we dropped it, we're going to be imputing crimes that were committed in

16 Gradiska and Dubica to Mr. Brdjanin.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- anyway, have a look at it.

18 MS. KORNER: No, no, I understand that.


20 MR. ACKERMAN: I made it very clear that I'm not calling

21 witnesses from any of those places.

22 MS. KORNER: No, you said Laktasi and Srbac, and not Dubica and

23 Gradiska.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's break now. We'll have, if you agree, a

25 20-minute break, and then try and finish a little bit earlier, I'm told.

Page 23715

1 Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.


5 Q. Thank you, sir. This will be quite quick.

6 I want to show you another news article from the same day. This

7 time it's from the newspaper Glas. I have a copy here. I'm interested

8 in the story entitled "No more time to beat around the bush." Subject:

9 "Report from the session of the Krajina war staff, Banja Luka, 8th of

10 May." This is a report on one of those ARK Crisis Staff meetings which

11 we ran through earlier.

12 It states: "At today's session of the ARK war staff, the

13 implementation of previous decisions of this body was analysed,

14 specifically the success of the mobilisation of recruits and measures

15 taken to prevent men liable for military service from leaving the area."

16 So again, it's reporting on discussions of the security situation

17 as they have been addressed in the ARK Crisis Staff.

18 "Significant attention was also paid to implementation of the war

19 staff's order on disarming illegal formations and individuals who

20 obtained weapons through various channels."

21 That's the first paragraph. If you skip to the third:

22 "Speaking about the order to disarm individuals and illegal

23 formations, Brdjanin warned that he expected most of them to return their

24 weapons to the municipal staffs of the TO by 11 May, adding that weapons

25 would be taken by force from those who refused to do so."

Page 23716

1 So again, you've explained to us how you see a different between

2 a war staff and a crisis staff. I don't want to talk about that now.

3 What we have here is Mr. Brdjanin in his capacity as president of the ARK

4 Crisis Staff in its early days portraying to the public this decision as

5 a decision taken by his staff; right? Specifically, that weapons must be

6 surrendered by the 11th of May. You agree with that, don't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So in public, the crisis staff is throwing its weight behind that

9 deadline emphasising this is an important deadline, if it's not met,

10 these weapons are going to be taken by force.

11 A. That was provided for by the order of mobilisation. If weapons

12 weren't surrendered, that's how it would be. That's the situation today,

13 too.

14 Q. What do you mean by "that's the situation today, too"? That's

15 what I didn't understand when you said that before either.

16 A. Anyone who has possession of illegal arms and were not in a unit

17 and was not issued weapons which was required by the order, the -- it was

18 necessary to return the weapons. That part of the decision was carried

19 out by the civilian bodies of the police. In cases of uniforms, it was

20 the police.

21 Q. I understand it is always illegal to own an illegal weapon,

22 however that's defined in the law. Here, though, we're talking about the

23 specific deadline in the order which you'll agree with me Mr. Brdjanin

24 here is portraying that as an ARK Crisis Staff order; right?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already answered that question.

Page 23717












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 23718

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, he has, Your Honour, it's just that he's

2 starting to talk about the current law, and I'm differentiating that.

3 Q. Sir, there are other documents - I'm trying to speed this up -

4 would you agree with me or accept that there were public announcements in

5 Kljuc about the deadline of the 11th of May, issued by the Kljuc

6 Municipal Crisis Staff? Otherwise, we can look at some documents.

7 A. I assume so. I didn't look at them.

8 Q. All right. You assume that because that would be natural. This

9 order has been issued, it has been disseminated, and Kljuc Crisis Staff

10 would be one of the bodies that would publicise that deadline; right?

11 I can show it to you if you want to see it.

12 A. No.

13 Q. No, you don't want to see it, or no, you disagree with me?

14 A. There is no need for me to see it, but you can show it to me if

15 you want.

16 Q. It's all right. I'd like to now show you P202. This is a

17 lengthy dispatch sent out by chief of the security centre, Stoja

18 Zupljanin. I don't want you to get confused because there are several

19 dates on this document. It's the conclusions of the 6th of May expanded

20 meeting, but the document has dispatched on the 20th of May. As you can

21 see, just take a look at the top of the document, these conclusions have

22 been sent to all SJBs, every police station in the region, except for

23 Jajce.

24 Now, quickly, could you just go to paragraph 23. Read that to

25 yourself. Let me know when you've read it.

Page 23719

1 It states that "In all our activities, we are obliged to observe

2 all measures and apply all procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff of the

3 Autonomous Region.

4 "With regard to disarmament, when the deadline for weapons

5 surrender expires on 11 May 1992, on 11 May 1992, we should take no

6 action until the Crisis Staff makes the relevant decisions. It is very

7 important that we solve this problem comprehensively, insisting on the

8 disarmament of extremist groups."

9 Have you read that, sir?

10 So, it's not just Mr. Brdjanin in the press; Stojan Zupljanin in

11 this precise order --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Taya is right. We do not have -- I did

13 hear the witness answering the question, but probably did not arrive to

14 the interpreters.

15 You were asked whether you read this document, and you answered

16 yes; is that right?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go ahead.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: What perhaps could be clarified is whether he mean

21 having read it now or whether you meant to ask him if he had read it at

22 the time.


24 Q. I actually meant, sir, have you just finished reading this

25 paragraph just now because before I ask you any questions I want to make

Page 23720

1 sure you've had time to read it. So you've read it just now these last

2 few minutes; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you ever read this document before today?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You weren't shown this one by Defence counsel in preparing for

7 today?

8 A. I cannot remember.

9 Q. All right. It's not important.

10 The question to you, sir, is it's not just in the newspapers,

11 it's just not Mr. Brdjanin; Stojan Zupljanin in this order, which is sent

12 to every police station in the region, is first of all saying that in all

13 activities, the police are obliged to observe all measures and apply all

14 procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff of the ARK. Right? That's what

15 he's saying. It's unambiguous.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the second point he makes specifically to the issue of the

18 disarmament deadline because when that deadline is reached and expires,

19 no action is going to be taken until the crisis staff makes the relevant

20 decision; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So -- we'll get back to this, but whoever discussed that deadline

23 when you first put it in your order at this point, early May, it's very

24 clear that the crisis staff is controlling what's going to happen when

25 that deadline expires, isn't it?

Page 23721

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 Let me just ask you this without showing you the document. I

4 don't think you need to see it. I'm done with that, sir. You already

5 told us you were at the 16th assembly session on the 12th of May. That

6 was the day after the first deadline; right? The deadline was the 11th

7 of May; the assembly was on the 12th of May.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember Miroslav Vjestica from Krupa reporting what was

10 happening in the assembly to neighbouring municipalities?

11 A. I remember Miroslav Vjestica at the assembly, but I don't

12 remember what he was reporting on. I got to know Mr. Miroslav as an

13 assemblyman.

14 Q. All right. Let me just read you a part of what he said, and you

15 tell me if that helps you remember or not.

16 He states:

17 "As for Bosanski Novi, let me you that I was there

18 yesterday." -- which would be the 11th of May -- "Bosanski Novi is

19 sealed off. On ultimatum has been issued and a deadline set for the

20 Muslims to surrender their weapons. Some of them; some of them have not.

21 Yesterday, there was shooting. What will happen today, I believe they

22 will surrender. The same is going on in Sanski Most. I think that the

23 Muslims will be disarmed there, too."

24 I can show you the transcript if you want, or can you agree with

25 me that he said that at the 16th assembly session?

Page 23722

1 A. I can't remember having him say that. Perhaps I wasn't present

2 at that point in time. I didn't attend the whole assembly. I was there

3 at the beginning. Then there was a break when I was standing with three

4 high-ranking officers. And later on, I came back to the meeting, and I

5 listened to the report of the commander of the Main Staff. But I can't

6 remember that particular discussion.

7 Q. All right. That's fine.

8 Let me just show it to you very quickly so you can tell I'm being

9 truthful with you. It's the highlighted portion in yellow.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'm looking at P50, Your Honours, page 26 of

11 the English.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.


14 Q. Very simply, Mr. Vjestica there is talking about results of the

15 11th of May deadline in Novi; right? It's quite clear, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you, sir.

18 I'm done with that, sir.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: One moment, Your Honour.

20 Q. I'd like to show you P631, sir. I have it here if it helps.

21 Now, this is pretty simple, too. This is a report from the 5th

22 Corps Command signed for General Talic on the 12th of May, the day his

23 command was going to turn into the 1KK, to the 2nd Military District.

24 Section 3 is entitled "Situation on the Ground." That's the only part

25 I'm going to ask you about.

Page 23723

1 And it states: "Upon the request of citizens and parties, the SR

2 Krajina war staff has extended the deadline for the handover of weapons

3 from 11 of May to 14th of May."

4 Have you found that part? It's the bottom of number 3.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, just very simply, this is just a report from General Talic

7 up through the chain of command that we talked about earlier reporting on

8 the ARK Crisis Staff conclusion which we saw earlier today about the

9 extension of the deadline.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that's probably something he would have learned from, I think

12 it's Major Vunovic who attended the meetings.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to that. That calls for

14 speculation on his part how he would have found out about that.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not speculation at all.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It is speculation, Mr. Nicholls. Please withdraw

17 your --

18 MR. NICHOLLS: My I just give my foundation. On direct, Mr.

19 Cunningham led out of the witness I believe that General Talic, when he

20 couldn't attend sent a representative to inform him. And he said that

21 that representative, he believed, did not take part but took notes or

22 recorded what was said so he could brief his superior. So I think that's

23 a foundation to ask if that's how it's likely that he would have found

24 out.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, you are right. Go ahead.

Page 23724


2 Q. You can answer the question. That's probably how General Talic

3 found out, or that's why Major Vunovic was there, to convey this kind of

4 information to General Talic; right?

5 A. No. Which major?

6 Q. Well, General Talic couldn't attend -- I don't want to spend a

7 lot of time on this point - you said he sent Vunovic. There was a

8 representative for the 5th Corps at ARK Crisis Staff meetings; correct?

9 A. Colonel Gojko Vujinovic. I don't remember him being at the

10 crisis staff, but at the meetings of the presidents of the municipality.

11 That is what I said, and his name is Gojko Vujinovic. And Major Jokic

12 was a member of the Crisis Staff.

13 Q. I'm not asking about Major Jokic. It's okay. I'll just move on;

14 it's not vital how that information reached him.

15 Now, we also talked about, and you agreed with me, that the way

16 these weapons disarmament operations were going to take place properly

17 was at the hands of the police and the military police; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And we've seen that in Mr. Zupljanin's order. I'd like to show

20 you P637. And while you're getting that, let me ask you if you

21 personally knew Colonel Anicic, who was the Serbian TO commander for

22 Sanski Most in May 1992.

23 A. No.

24 Q. What you're looking at is a 22nd of May Crisis Staff of the

25 Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most, "Set of Conclusions" from their 21st

Page 23725

1 of May meeting. I'd like you to look at item 4, please. That's number

2 4, not necessarily -- not D, but number 4.

3 It states: "As far as disarming paramilitary formations in

4 Sanski Most is concerned, Colonel Basara and Colonel Anicic are charged

5 with putting this into practice."

6 And then it states that in Sanski Most, there is now a deadline

7 of 2000 hours on 24th of May 1992. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, do you know who Colonel Basara was? You know who he is,

10 right? Branko Basara.

11 A. The brigade commander, one of the brigades in Sanski Most.

12 Q. Yes, that's right. So here what we're seeing is that the

13 disarming in Sanski Most is not exclusively being handled by the police

14 and the military police, but also with the TO represented by Colonel

15 Anicic.

16 A. The TO did not have its own police establishment-wise. Whether

17 Anicic maybe set up his own police or not, I don't know. Maybe he did.

18 But there was a rule. There were two kinds of police: The military

19 police at the disposal of the corps, and the civilian police. This was

20 according to the rules. Colonel Anicic did not have the same TO that I

21 had, and I did not have the military police. I'm not sure if that

22 answers your question. But this seems more like --

23 Q. You're -- you're --

24 A. -- like some kind of initiative on Anicic's part. But all right.

25 Q. Well, it's a conclusion directed to Colonel Anicic.

Page 23726

1 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.

2 Q. Let me -- this might help clear this up for you. Let me show you

3 P638. I have a copy here.

4 This shows you, as you can see, that Nedeljko Anicic was, of

5 course, Serbian TO commander; right? You can see that in the top left of

6 the cover page.

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Now, the combat task is disarmament operations in Sanski Most.

9 Do you see that, right at the top of the page? That's what it says the

10 order is about.

11 A. Yes, I see this is an order. The authorising commander, probably

12 the chief.

13 Q. Sorry. I'm losing my ...

14 Okay, the sound's back, I think.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem? I haven't understood what the

16 problem is.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I didn't get any sound from that last answer.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow from the transcript?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, it's fine. It's back.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, the sound is back. Okay, so let's

21 proceed.


23 Q. Very quickly, if you look down to number 3 of this rather long,

24 detailed order, it states: "The 6th Brigade in coordinated action with

25 Serbian TO units is undertaking combat operations in Sanski Most

Page 23727

1 Municipality area in order to disarm enemy forces ..."

2 Again, so based on the specific situation in Sanski Most, keeping

3 in mind that we are now beyond the 11th and 14th of May deadlines,

4 disarmament operations are taking place -- being conducted by a regular

5 VRS unit in conjunction with the TO; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sorry.

8 A. Item 3, the neighbours, that's the 6th Brigade. That's what the

9 order says.

10 Q. Yes, right. I'm just trying to go through with you the evolution

11 of how these orders which we've talked about being passed down were put

12 into place. Thank you, I'm done with that.

13 I'd like to show you P196. Again, you can have my copy if that's

14 easier. Sir, these are Kljuc Crisis Staff minutes from the 13th and 14th

15 of May. So now just after the first deadline and right up to when the

16 second deadline expired. Agenda item number 1 is "adoption of decisions,

17 conclusions on behalf of the Kljuc SO pursuant to decisions of the

18 Krajina ARK Crisis Staffs."

19 And if you go down from the agenda which has been discussed, to

20 conclusion number 1, again, the deadline for the surrender of illegally

21 acquired weapons will be extended until 2400 hours on the 14th of May

22 1992. And if you continue: "Once the deadline has expired, officers of

23 the Security Services Centre of the Krajina Autonomous Region will

24 proceed to confiscate weapons and take strict measures against those who

25 fail to respond to the call of the Crisis Staff."

Page 23728

1 Point 4, just below that, it states: "This meeting supports the

2 activities of the Krajina Autonomous Region Crisis Staff."

3 You said that not all conclusions or decisions were implemented

4 in all municipalities. Here, we see Kljuc Crisis Staff recognising the

5 authority of the ARK Crisis Staff; correct?

6 A. May I comment, please, or should I just answer yes or no?

7 Q. You could answer yes or no, and then comment. That would be

8 best.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And when Mr. Nicholls gives you permission, it's

10 also our permission.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sajic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone is a superior and if the

14 Kljuc Crisis Staff believed that the ARK Crisis Staff was their superior,

15 there is nothing for me to confirm here. I do agree that if you look at

16 the sentence, you might conclude that at the same time as it supported

17 the ARK Crisis Staff, maybe they didn't believe that they were their

18 superiors. But yes, I would take that to be a yes.


20 Q. Yes. And we can move on from this. One of the conclusions

21 they're definitely implementing here is the weapons deadline of 14 May.

22 That was conclusions item number 1.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, could I get an idea of when you plan

Page 23729

1 on --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Five minutes, five minutes more.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. If it's five minutes more, Your

4 Honour, I'd just as soon break now. And I will try to organise things to

5 be --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. We have all had a very long

7 day. And it's not finished yet.

8 So Mr. Sajic, we are going to end here today. We will continue

9 tomorrow. Tomorrow, the sitting is also in the afternoon, so you will

10 have ample time to rest, and we hope to be able to finish -- I think the

11 indication is that we should be in a position to finish with your

12 testimony tomorrow for sure.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Definitely. From our side, definitely.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And then in the beginning, Mr. Cunningham, please

15 give us an indication as to how much time you require for any redirect

16 that you might require.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll be glad to do that, Your Honour. And if I

18 could ask Mr. Nicholls just how much time he thinks he's going to use up

19 because we have a witness that we can put on tomorrow.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm going to read the transcript and try to

21 reformulate. And I think I'll finish in the first session, the first

22 hour and a half.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And the other witness that you have in

24 line, that you're proofing tomorrow, he is listed or she is indicated as

25 being required here to today for a day and a half.

Page 23730

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think, and I apologise for interrupting, Your

2 Honour. I think, I haven't met with him to proof him yet, but I'm

3 thinking that my direct examination or my examination-in-chief would be

4 stretching it if it was 45 minutes long. So I anticipate it being,

5 relatively, a very brief examination.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not my witness, so I can't speak to the

7 cross. But I think reading the summary of the municipality that witness

8 is from, we will be longer than 45 minutes on cross.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: When I read the summary, I just couldn't fathom how

10 this witness would be a day and a half. But anyway, it's up to you.

11 We'll come to that tomorrow. And tomorrow we'll decide what to do.

12 Mr. Sajic, you're free to go. Usher will escort you out of the

13 courtroom and we'll see you again tomorrow afternoon.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask you something, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said yesterday that I shouldn't

18 use the phone to talk to anyone, so I simply switched it off after my

19 conversation with the Defence team. I still keep it switched off. But I

20 need to check on my mother, on her health. May I turn my phone back on

21 to do that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, certainly. Without the least

23 hesitation. You are a mature man, so you know what's good and what's

24 bad, what's right and what's wrong.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for that, Your

Page 23731

1 Honours.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So speaking to your mother or checking that your

3 mother is all right is an honourable thing to do. You should not even

4 doubt that we would ever put you in a position prohibiting you or making

5 it impossible for you to check on your mother's health. I check myself

6 on a daily basis with regard to my mother.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: If he asks how it's all going --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But if she asks you what has the others said about

9 you, please be careful.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I'll bring that up.

11 I just want to get in touch to see how she is. The people from the

12 Victims and Witnesses Unit have been very kind to me so far.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And they will continue to be kind, nice to you

14 because that's the practice in this Tribunal. We don't distinguish

15 between witnesses coming for the Prosecution or witnesses for the

16 Defence. They are all treated the same.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that. Thank you very

18 much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything before we rise? Mr. Nicholls?

20 Mr. Ackerman? Mr. Cunningham? Are you feeling well, Mr. Cunningham?

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm better, Your Honour. Thank you for asking.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we rise, and we'll meet again

23 tomorrow in the afternoon. Thank you.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.45 p.m.,

Page 23732

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

2 December, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.