Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24100

1 Thursday, 15 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Chuqing, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

7 This is the case Number IT-99-36-T --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because...

9 Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case again, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor

11 versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in

13 a language that you can understand?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

15 can follow you in a language I understand.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, and good morning to you, too.

17 Appearances, Prosecution.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Julian Nicholls with

19 Ann Sutherland and Denise Gustin.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

21 Appearances, Mr. Brdjanin.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,

23 reauthorised to appear in this Tribunal. I'm here with Aleksandar Vujic

24 and our new intern Cynthia Dresden. And I apologise for the delay this

25 morning. I accept full responsibility for not paying attention to when my

Page 24101

1 badge expired. I'll try to avoid that happening again, but I don't think

2 it will. Fortunately we have lost nothing, because the witness will

3 probably take an hour to an hour and a half for both of us to finish. So

4 not a problem.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope that is the case actually because if not, we

6 will have to keep him over the whole weekend, tomorrow having already

7 scheduled the videolinks.

8 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour was inquiring about the report of the

10 expert.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I was going to come precisely to that.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to supply to the Prosecution tomorrow a

13 draft copy of that report. It's about 40 pages, somewhere in the

14 neighbourhood of 40 pages long. There will be some additions to it which

15 he is working on that we can have -- I don't know quite how long it will

16 take him. He said he can expedite it, and I told him he needed to do

17 that. And my question is do Your Honours want to be supplied with that

18 draft copy or do you want to wait for the final? Whatever you wish, I'll

19 take care of.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we would wait for the final. I mean,

21 ourselves, we are not that much interested in the time that is provided

22 for in the Rules, which is intended for the adverse party rather than the

23 Tribunal. So -- the Trial Chamber. So as soon as the final version is

24 available, Mr. Ackerman, please let us have it.

25 And second thing is if it is at all possible, and I really am

Page 24102

1 making an appeal to you, if it is at all possible to convince the expert

2 to testify before the 9th of February, I think that would be very much

3 appreciated, if it is at all possible. But I'm inviting you to try.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I may be able to do that. That would shorten the

5 time the Prosecution has to prepare for cross-examination.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But I can also convince the Prosecution.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: The one thing that I did want to point out for the

8 record if for nothing else, Your Honour, is this: For about two years

9 now, the heart of this expert's report has been an exhibit in this case.

10 DB1. It's the book that he coauthored. And a great deal of his testimony

11 will be based on that book. The report that he's written is basically

12 just a supplement bringing the book a little more up to date. And it has

13 some new material in it. But the book is basically his report, and then

14 the addition that we'll supply soon.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Had you made available duplicate copies of -- I

16 remember you offering to have duplicate copies of that book made

17 available. I know it exists in the library, because I had read it. But

18 that's about it.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: At one point, Your Honour, I offered to --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I remember that.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: -- to order copies to make available to the

22 Trial Chamber.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And I turned the offer down myself.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: And you turned it down because you thought it might

25 be inappropriate, so...

Page 24103

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember it myself, Your Honour. I admire your

2 memory.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I would trade memories with you any time,

4 Your Honour. Yours is a great deal better than mine, and I envy it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If there are copies which could be made available

6 and which we will then return to you, that is strikes a nice balance.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: There aren't, but there will be. If you'd like

8 that, I think it's still in print --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we could do that. I think we could do that.

10 Rather because I don't think we can share the copy that is in the library,

11 the three of us, within the time available. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. Even if the report is

13 based on a book, we're getting a draft tomorrow, I guess, which won't be

14 complete. We will need a couple weeks from when we get the complete draft

15 I think to adequately prepare our cross.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it's very easy to say, Mr. Nicholls, and I

17 really appreciate because I have been a lawyer myself. So I do appreciate

18 that. But on the other hand, if I am not putting pressure, but I am

19 strongly inviting Mr. Ackerman to cut down on the time so that we avoid

20 having a three-week break, which won't look nice.


22 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's difficult to convince or make others

23 understand the amount of work that you, Mr. Ackerman, and us in

24 particular, together with our staff, will be doing during those three

25 weeks. But it's all behind closed doors, so no one is there to see it.

Page 24104

1 No one is there to know it. The perception of the public is "look at

2 them. I mean, they have taken a three-week holiday," which is definitely

3 not the case. But if we can shorten those three weeks, it will be better.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand, Your Honours. It's hard to make a

5 judgement until we have the actual report.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm making an appeal to both of you. All right.

7 The other thing I think is we need to decide orally Mr. Ackerman's

8 or the accused's motion for testimony by videolink number 2. We had

9 already decided number 1. We need to decide number 2. Is there an

10 objection on the part of the Prosecutor? I understand not.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So your request, Mr. Ackerman, is -- your motion is

13 being accepted, and the evidence of the witness -- of Witness Number 49

14 will be heard by videolink. I understand also, but I don't recall having

15 seen the motion, that you were supposed to ask for protective measures for

16 both of them. Have you asked?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: That's already been filed and granted, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we don't have to do anything about

19 that.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: No. You granted that earlier, I'm sure.


22 You were also supposed to supply or to forward to the Prosecution

23 some medical certificate. Did you do that?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's done, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I think we can bring the witness in,

Page 24105












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24106

1 there being no further preliminary matters to discuss. I see none. Could

2 you bring the witness in, please. Thank you.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning to you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I am speaking in English, and you should be

9 receiving interpretation in your own language. If at any time there is a

10 problem with the interpretation, please let me know.

11 You are about to start giving evidence in the case which has been

12 ongoing against Radoslav Brdjanin as a witness for the Defence. Our Rules

13 require that before you start testifying, you enter, you make a solemn

14 declaration equivalent to an oath to the effect that in the course of your

15 testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

16 but the truth. The text of this solemn declaration is being handed to you

17 now. Please read it out loud, and that will be your solemn undertaking

18 with us.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please, take a seat.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: What's going to happen now is that Mr. Ackerman is

24 going to ask you a series of questions. He will then be followed by

25 Mr. Nicholls for the Prosecution. And that being done, you should be able

Page 24107

1 to return back home without further delay. My advice to you is to answer

2 the question, the whole question, and nothing but the question. Don't

3 give us information that is not asked from you. That would only serve for

4 you to remain here for hours, if not days.

5 The other thing that I want to advise you about is that although

6 you are a witness for the Defence, your duty in terms of the oath of the

7 solemn declaration that you made earlier on today is to answer each

8 question truthfully and fully, irrespective of who is putting the question

9 to you. In other words, you have no right to draw a distinction or to

10 favour one side rather than the other. Did I make myself clear?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have fully understood,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to sit down, you may do so.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand. I've decided to resume a standing

17 position. So thank you.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Ackerman:

21 Q. Sir, your name is Boris Dmitrasinovic. Tell the Court when you

22 were born and where, please.

23 A. I was born on the 13th of April 1971 in Banja Luka, in the then

24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the State of Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Are you married? Do you have any children?

Page 24108

1 A. I am married, and I have an 8-year-old son.

2 Q. Where are you living now? What kind of work are you doing?

3 A. Currently, I'm living in Banja Luka where I was born. And

4 presently I'm in marketing business. But this is still rather unofficial

5 and not really professional.

6 Q. All right. Did you ever serve in the army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. This was in 1990 and 1991.

10 Q. Did you ever serve in any kind of a combat situation with the

11 army?

12 A. This happened later when I was in service as a reservist in 1992,

13 in the summer of 1992.

14 Q. So you were mobilised after you had finished your initial army

15 service?

16 A. I completed my compulsory service in 1991 and was mobilised in the

17 month of May of 1992 when everybody else was mobilised as well.

18 Q. I want to divide 1992 into basically two segments, before

19 September and after September. Before September of 1992, what was your

20 assignment? What was it that you were doing?

21 A. Before September of 1992, I was in a traffic company of the

22 military police which was part of the local corps.

23 Q. And was there a time when that company was assigned to a combat

24 role?

25 A. Yes, but it happened only once. There had been problems in that

Page 24109

1 part of the corridor, and we were asked to provide assistance to the units

2 that had been trained for combat.

3 Q. So where did you go? How long were you there? Did you ever

4 actually encounter any opposing forces?

5 A. This lasted only ten days, and to be perfectly frank, I never saw

6 any enemy during that period of time.

7 Q. Okay. In this period before September 1992, were any non-Serb

8 personnel serving in your unit?

9 A. Yes. The commander of my company was a Muslim, and his name was

10 Jasmin Nolkinic.

11 Q. Were there soldiers in your company that were non-Serb?

12 A. Well, it's difficult for me to remember, but this was probably the

13 case at that time because it was quite mixed, the population.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And if I may add, while I was -- while we were performing our

16 duties, sometimes we were together with the civilian police, and there

17 were also Croats in the civilian police, such as Zoran Klasan, a man who

18 is still working for the civilian police in Banja Luka and whom I see from

19 time to time in town, and a gentleman by the name of Blazevic whom I'm not

20 sure whether he has retired or whether he's still in service.

21 Q. Now, I divided 1992 into that period before September and after

22 September. Was there any change in your assignment in September of 1992?

23 A. In September 1992, I was transferred to the Security Services

24 Centre whereupon I was assigned to a unit which was referred to as

25 facility protection unit or platoon, correction.

Page 24110

1 Q. Who was the commander of that unit?

2 A. The commander of that unit was Vinko Jankovic. I don't know what

3 rank he had.

4 Q. What specifically were you assigned to do once you joined that

5 unit?

6 A. Our assignments were quite simply. We were in charge of providing

7 security to the facilities and buildings such as the town hall, the police

8 station, and buildings inhabited by individuals who were supposed to be

9 protected.

10 Q. In that connection, did you ever meet a gentleman by the name of

11 Radoslav Brdjanin?

12 A. I didn't know Radoslav before I was assigned to provide security

13 to the building where he lived with his family.

14 Q. Who else was assigned to provide security to that building along

15 with you?

16 A. You want me to give you the names of the people who worked with

17 me?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. There was Naum Golic, Zeljko Knezevic. There were others as well,

20 but they were not there permanently. Before I arrived, Mr. Cavka was also

21 there. Mr. Cavka was a Muslim.

22 Q. He was a Muslim member of your unit that was assigned to security

23 at Mr. Brdjanin's residence? Is that what you're saying?

24 A. Yes. He was a police officer. He was a member of the reserve

25 police force, and he was guarding the apartment of Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 24111

1 Q. Do you know if Mr. Brdjanin actually had asked for that protection

2 or not?

3 A. I don't think that Mr. Brdjanin had requested protection. He felt

4 free enough not to request any personal escort. These guards were

5 assigned to him by some individuals from the Security Services Centre who

6 believed that he, or rather the building where he lived needed some kind

7 of protection.

8 Q. Were you ever invited or did you ever attend any social gatherings

9 at Mr. Brdjanin's home?

10 A. Yes. Radoslav invited me to attend his slava, the family --

11 traditional family holiday, and at some other social gatherings as well.

12 Q. Do you recall whether at these social gatherings all of those

13 invited and in attendance were Serbs, or were there also non-Serbs invited

14 and attending?

15 A. No, there were also Croats and Muslims. Specifically, very often

16 Suzana Golic came to Radoslav Brdjanin's house, she is a Croat. And a

17 gentleman from his neighbourhood who was a Muslim, but whose name now

18 escapes me. His first name I think was -- rather, his last name was

19 Ibrahimovic, I think.

20 Q. During the time that you were providing security or at any time

21 that you're familiar with, do you know if the Brdjanin family had any

22 persons working for them that were non-Serb?

23 A. From what they told me, rather from what they discussed amongst

24 themselves, I know that they had a Muslim babysitter for their daughters.

25 This is what they discussed among each other, so I assume that this is

Page 24112

1 correct.

2 Q. Was your relationship with the Brdjanin family such that you were

3 able to learn about Mr. Brdjanin's relatives and his wife's relatives and

4 their nationalities? Did you ever learn anything about that?

5 A. Yes. Radoslav's family's very mixed, so is the family of his

6 wife. I will tell you of the examples that I know. For instance, both

7 his brothers are married to Croats. I know personally one of them whose

8 name is Milka. And Mira's family, I know that her brother was married to

9 a Muslim and that her sister was married to a Muslim. One of her cousins

10 is also married to a Croat, whom I know. His name is Zdravko. And the

11 name of this cousin is Vukica.

12 Q. Did you have conversations with Mr. Brdjanin that would permit you

13 to draw any conclusions regarding his feelings and attitude toward

14 non-Serb persons during this time, in 1992? And you can just tell me

15 whether you did or not. If you did, say "yes"; if you didn't, say "no."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell the Chamber what you learned about his attitudes in this

18 regard.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's fill this blank. The witness is a Serb or is

20 of Serb ethnicity, Mr. Ackerman, isn't he?


22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. We are going back to the question concerning the conversations

24 that I had with Radoslav concerning people of other ethnicities. Isn't

25 that so?

Page 24113

1 Well, I will give you an example that was a personal one, that I

2 was impressed by. We had one of our conversations, and I said that Islam

3 was quite a primitive religion for which it will be very difficult to fit

4 into the contemporary modern-day lifestyle. Radoslav replied to me by

5 saying that I was thinking this way simply because I was a Christian. If

6 I belonged to some other religious confession, I would think differently.

7 He did, however, tell me so in a way that that he showed that he perhaps

8 also thought it a bit primitive, but at the same time he indicated that

9 this was no way of thinking, of undermining other people's religions and

10 praising one's own. And after having talked about it, I started thinking

11 differently as well.

12 Q. Did you ever hear from any source that Mr. Brdjanin had made

13 public pronouncements, public speeches that were very anti-non-Serb

14 people?

15 A. No, I have never heard any such thing.

16 Q. Have you ever heard about it? I mean did you -- has anyone ever

17 suggested to you that he made such statements?

18 A. I only heard this after he had been taken to The Hague. Prior to

19 that, I never heard any such thing of him having insulted or offended

20 members of other religions in any of his public speeches.

21 Q. The Trial Chamber has seen a clip, for instance, where

22 Mr. Brdjanin said something about wiping non-Christian scum from the soles

23 of our shoes. Does that square with the Mr. Brdjanin that you knew?

24 A. No, I hear this for the first time.

25 Q. Did you and Mr. Brdjanin ever have any discussions regarding the

Page 24114

1 army that you can recall?

2 A. Radoslav leveled a lot of criticism at the army at the time. Once

3 he said that the fact that non-Serbs were assigned to work obligation was

4 a terrible thing, and the fact that they had to spend seven or eight hours

5 working there was very bad. And he particularly minded the fact that the

6 educated people, teachers, lawyers were assigned to such work obligations

7 as involved cleaning of the streets or collecting and sweeping leaves off

8 the streets. He thought this to be improper, and he thought that this

9 practice should be put to a stop.

10 Q. During the time that you -- how long a period of time did you

11 remain in reasonably close contact with Mr. Brdjanin? From September of

12 1992 until when?

13 A. I was on good terms with Brdjanin's family even after my

14 assignment had been over. We continued socialising in an informal way,

15 though rather less frequently.

16 Q. During that period of time, did you ever see any indication that

17 Mr. Brdjanin was profiting in any way from the war situation?

18 A. Mr. Brdjanin is a man who surely has not profited from the war,

19 and this is indicated by his personal means. He was driving around his

20 15-year-old Toyota, I believe. The only property he had was the apartment

21 he had been given by the State. Radoslav was one of the few people who

22 were involved in the politics, but did not profit from it in any way. He

23 was an engineer prior to the war, as far as I know, who had a very good

24 salary, who worked in the Middle East countries, and I believe that he was

25 much more wealthy when the war broke out. He was, however, much less well

Page 24115

1 off when the war was over.

2 Q. Do you know what his attitude was toward those who were profiting

3 from the war? Did you ever hear him express anything in that regard?

4 A. Of course. His position in regard to these people was a

5 well-known one. He was one of the few politicians who publicly declared a

6 war on criminal groups. However, his political position was quite a weak

7 one, and he could not resist on his own the growing crime in the State.

8 Q. Do you recall when Mr. Brdjanin was arrested?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. What was your reaction to that? How did you feel about that?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Relevance.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there is relevance. I can see it, but perhaps

13 Mr. Ackerman can -- yes, what's the relevance, Mr. Ackerman?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, the relevance, Your Honour, is I think

15 apparent. If one is surprised at the arrest of a person, they tend not to

16 see any basis for it. If they're not surprised, then there probably is a

17 basis for it. I think that's the basic crux of it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. I allow the question.

19 Please answer the question. Could you repeat it, Mr. Ackerman,

20 because probably he's lost track.


22 Q. What was your reaction upon learning that Mr. Brdjanin had been

23 arrested?

24 A. May I answer?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 24116

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was surprised at the arrest

3 because I could not understand how a person such as Mr. Brdjanin could be

4 arrested for alleged war crimes. Upon hearing the news, initially I

5 thought that it was not SFOR that had arrested him, but some sort of a

6 criminal group because at the time he was fighting crime very actively.

7 Unfortunately, later on I heard what was the truth, that the things had

8 happened differently. I thought it a mistake and that Radoslav would be

9 released very soon. However, things developed eventually the way they

10 did.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dmitrasinovic. That's all I have.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

13 You're now going to be cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls, as I

14 explained to you earlier.

15 Mr. Nicholls.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Actually, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I wonder if we

17 could take about a ten-minute break.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. I think we can even take the normal

19 break now, only 17 minutes away from it. So we'll have a 25-minute break

20 now.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 24117

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

3 Q. Sir, could you please spell your name. I want to make sure we

4 have it right.

5 A. Boris, B-o-r-i-s, Dmitrasinovic, D-m-i-t-r-a-s-i-n-o-v-i-c.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you go by any nicknames in 1992, 1993?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you were a young man in 1992. I take it from your

9 testimony that at that stage in your life you weren't very interested in

10 politics. Is that right?

11 A. Well, yes, that is true.

12 Q. Because you don't recall hearing, seeing, or reading about any of

13 Mr. Brdjanin's speeches during the summer of 1992. Correct?

14 A. There was not much electricity at the time, so I did not watch TV

15 very much. I do not even watch it nowadays. Sometimes I just watch if

16 there's a good film showing.

17 Q. So the answer to my question is yes. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just to be clear, before 1992, September 1992 when you were

20 assigned to protect Mr. Brdjanin's apartment, you'd never met him

21 personally. Right?

22 A. No, this isn't right. I did meet Radoslav at the time when I was

23 guarding his apartment. Prior to that I did not know him.

24 Q. All right. I think probably you misunderstood me, but that's all

25 right. Thank you.

Page 24118

1 Now, you started that duty, which was a night shift first of all.

2 Correct?

3 A. Yes, mostly during the night.

4 Q. And you worked with Naum Golic during that shift?

5 A. I worked with Naum Golic.

6 Q. How long -- well, had you met him before you started that duty?

7 You both grew up in Banja Luka?

8 A. I did not know Naum before. I did grow up in Banja Luka, and I

9 believe he did so as well.

10 Q. So you met him for the first time in September 1992 as well?

11 A. Officially, yes. Perhaps I sometimes met him at school because as

12 far as I know he also attended the school for machinists in Banja Luka.

13 But we officially met for the first time in September 1992.

14 Q. All right. And you would talk with him when you were on duty with

15 him during the night?

16 A. Yes, about ordinary things.

17 Q. Yes. And when you went to parties, festivals, slavas at

18 Mr. Brdjanin's, you said Mr. Golic would come with his wife?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Mr. Golic ever tell you about how he came to come to Banja Luka in

21 1992, how he was transferred there in March or April from Western

22 Slavonia?

23 A. I don't even know that he ever was in Slavonia.

24 Q. All right. Are you -- what's your relationship with him? Would

25 you consider him a friend, Mr. Golic?

Page 24119

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When was the last time you, I'll say, communicated with him? And

3 by that, I mean spoke to him in person, on the telephone, by email, by a

4 letter, anything of that nature.

5 A. I spoke to him in Banja Luka after his return from here. I cannot

6 recall exactly what day it was. We had a cup of coffee, and the whole

7 thing lasted 40 minutes.

8 Q. And he told you about what it had been like here for him?

9 A. He told me that the weather was very bad, that he wasn't satisfied

10 with the food, and he was angry because no one had told him that there was

11 a pool, so he did not bring a swimming costume with him, and he couldn't

12 find the right size to buy a pair here.

13 Q. Well, that's a shame. But did he talk to you at all about the

14 topics that were discussed while he was here in his testimony?

15 A. We did not discuss that. We talked about the ordinary things and

16 the conditions he found upon his arrival here.

17 Q. Did he give you any advice about how you should answer questions

18 or what you ought to say when you came, if you were to come?

19 A. He did not give me any advice. We did not discuss the matter at

20 all.

21 Q. So you spent 40 minutes talking about the weather, the food, and

22 his lack of a swimsuit?

23 A. Well, we talked about these things among other things. We

24 discussed other issues, topical issues, concerning our town. We did not

25 touch upon that particular topic of his arrival here.

Page 24120

1 Q. He never told you any of the questions he'd been asked or the

2 answers he gave?

3 A. Only once he mentioned that a person feels very nervous when

4 stepping into the courtroom because it's his first time and you feel the

5 stage fright.

6 Q. Now, let me go back to talking about Mr. Brdjanin. You didn't

7 know him until September 1992 and didn't work with him before then. You

8 have no first-hand knowledge of Mr. Brdjanin's activities in April 1992,

9 do you?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. And that goes for May, June, July, and August as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said that at these slavas or parties, Naum Golic would come

14 with his wife, who was a Croat, and there was a Muslim neighbour who would

15 also come to his parties. And they were treated correctly by

16 Mr. Brdjanin. Right?

17 A. I keep receiving the interpretation Galic, but his name is Golic,

18 and he was not a Croat. It was his wife who was a Croat. And the rest of

19 the information is correct.

20 Q. All right. I'm always talking about Golic. If I say anything

21 that sounds like Golic, you can take it that I'm not going to ask you

22 anything about anybody named Galic.

23 Those are the only two people of non-Serb origin you remember

24 being there at these parties?

25 A. No. There was also Radoslav's eldest brother's wife who was a

Page 24121

1 Croat as well, Mirka. And Mira's cousin's - Vukica - husband whose name

2 was Zdravko. Very likeable guy.

3 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't ask that question very well. I meant other

4 than relatives.

5 A. You mean if there were any other Croats or Muslims attending

6 slavas besides friends and relatives? Is that what you have in mind?

7 Q. No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No. What Mr. Nicholls wants from you is an

9 indication of non-Serb family, friends attending the slavas, but he's not

10 interested in non-Serb family members. Do you understand me now? Okay.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see now. Suzana Golic was not

12 related to Mr. Brdjanin. Mr. Ibrahimovic or Ibrahimbegovic, I don't

13 recall his name, was also not related to Mr. Brdjanin, but would attend

14 the slava. And then this person by the name of Zdravko, he is not a close

15 relative of him.


17 Q. Okay. So those --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

20 Q. So those two people who were not related in any way,

21 Mr. Ibrahimovic and Suzana Golic are the only two you remember attending

22 these parties? I think that's what you're telling us.

23 A. See, it is possible that there were others. I didn't know all of

24 those people. It's difficult for me to say. I know for instance that

25 Suzana Golic --

Page 24122

1 Q. I'm just asking about your specific people that you specifically

2 remember. I don't want you to speculate.

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Now, when was the last time you had contact with a member of

5 Mr. Brdjanin's family?

6 A. Banja Luka is a small town, and I often see them in town. I don't

7 know exactly when was the last time when I ran into a close relative or a

8 close family member of him.

9 Q. But you're still friendly with Mr. Brdjanin's family?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And essentially, you're a friend of Mr. Brdjanin's. Correct? I

12 saw that you gave him a big nod right when you walked into the courtroom.

13 You consider him a friend, don't you?

14 A. At one point we had a professional relationship, but then

15 friendship followed or developed.

16 Q. Right. Now, you didn't, you say, until after Mr. Brdjanin's

17 arrest ever hear that in 1992, 1993 he had called Muslims "balijas,"

18 Croats "Ustashas," and referred to non-Serbs as Mr. Ackerman stated as

19 "non-Christian scum," who are tarnishing our lands and who the Serb

20 people need to wipe from the bottom of our shoes. Right?

21 A. I hear this for the first time. He never said any such thing.

22 Q. You hear this for the first time in the courtroom, or when?

23 A. I heard from the members of his family that all kinds of things

24 are being imputed to him here. I myself never heard him say these words.

25 Q. My question is when did you learn that these -- that he was

Page 24123

1 alleged to have said these things?

2 A. I learned it -- actually, I have never heard him say that, the

3 words that you have just quoted. This is something that I've never heard

4 before.

5 Q. You're not understanding my question. I'm not asking if you've

6 heard it. I'm asking when you first heard that he made statements like

7 those in public, in political rallies, and things of that nature. Not

8 when you first heard them, but when you learned that he made speeches

9 where he called people balijas, Ustashas, non-Christian scum?

10 A. I've never heard any such thing.

11 Q. Let me refer you -- we've gotten a sort of summary. Let me ask

12 you this: Did you say to Mr. Ackerman that you learned about these things

13 that Mr. Brdjanin had said after he was arrested?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it's a communication thing

16 because he said on direct that he heard these things only after

17 Mr. Brdjanin was arrested.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: First time, yes.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: So he's already answered the question.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I know, but then he said he never heard him. I

21 think the questions are pretty clear. I'm asking -- I've said it several

22 times, not when you heard it but when you learned. I'm trying to get a

23 straight answer because he --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It needs a clarification in a way because he's given

25 two conflicting, not in a negative sense. But his two versions are

Page 24124

1 confusing, so perhaps he could expand on this.

2 You gave us the impression that you never heard at all, no one

3 ever told you before you entered this courtroom today that supposedly

4 Mr. Brdjanin said any of those words or uttered any of those words. Is

5 that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me clarify. I did hear after

7 he'd been arrested that all kinds of things were being imputed to him,

8 things that he had never said. But I never clearly saw a text printed to

9 that effect, nor did I hear words to that effect. Now, I'm referring to

10 what he allegedly said. I only know from his family after his arrest that

11 a lot of things were being imputed to him; namely, speeches, things I had

12 never heard of from him.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think it's clear enough now.


15 Q. Just so that I'm clear on this, is your view that, in fact, he

16 never said any of these things?

17 A. I do not know whether he ever said any of these things or not. I

18 just know that I personally have never heard that.

19 Q. Right. And everything you're telling us about Mr. Brdjanin is

20 based on your professional and social contacts with him. Right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Did you say -- we've gotten -- I'm not trying to trick you or

23 anything. We've gotten a summary of what your expected testimony would

24 be. Did you say words to the effect when you were questioned by the

25 Defence that if Brdjanin, in fact, made some of the statements attributed

Page 24125

1 to him, it had to be for political purposes only because his behaviour was

2 the opposite?

3 A. I believe I mentioned that, that if there had been such

4 statements, that would have been only for the purpose of scoring political

5 points.

6 Q. Right. So your view is this was perhaps a man who, to score

7 political points, to gain political power, would call people these

8 terrible names and then invite one of them he was friendly with or

9 somebody's wife to his party?

10 A. I don't understand this.

11 Q. I'll move on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Move on, Mr. Nicholls.


14 Q. You said that Mr. Brdjanin objected to the work obligation of

15 Muslims being forced to sweep the streets. Did you know that one of his

16 quotes was that only a few Muslims would be allowed to remain in

17 Banja Luka, and those would be old people, and that they would sweep the

18 streets?

19 A. This is the first time I hear these words.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

21 Okay. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't have anything else, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 We don't have any further questions. Is there re-examination,

25 Mr. Ackerman? I suppose not. I didn't see -- recognise you standing up.

Page 24126

1 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that there isn't. There aren't

3 questions from the Bench which basically means that your testimony ends

4 here. It also means that you are free to go back home. Our usher will

5 assist you, will usher you out, escort you out of the courtroom, and you

6 will receive all the assistance you require to help you return home at the

7 earliest possibility. On behalf of the Tribunal, on behalf of Judge Janu

8 and Judge Taya, and on my own behalf, I should like to thank you for

9 having come over to give evidence, testimony, in this case. And also on

10 behalf of everyone present here, we wish you a safe journey back home.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So, the position. Anything? All right. Will you

14 come back to us at some point in time if you are in a position, perhaps

15 in -- after liaising with the Prosecution, if we could bring forward the

16 testimony of the expert witness.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, we'll get back to you on that, Your Honour.

18 I'll talk with the Prosecution today about it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. We'll resume then -- we'll let

20 you know exactly when after you have considered this. All right. I thank

21 you.

22 I also should like to thank the interpreters and the technicians.

23 We haven't finished, of course. There's still a lot of work to be done,

24 but I do take this opportunity to thank you for all your very efficient

25 assistance.

Page 24127

1 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm just asking, we are still in the morning

3 tomorrow. Is that right?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, tomorrow we have the videolink in this

5 courtroom.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In this courtroom. But then after that, we have to

8 wait until we get the testimony of the expert.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to make -- I'll make the effort, but I

10 think it's very unlikely he'll be able to come before then.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I'm fully aware that there may be

12 problems.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there may be. And we've all lot lots to

14 do. I mean there's -- it's not like we're going to be going on vacation.

15 We're going to be working very hard.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And I also hope it's it clear, and if it isn't I'm

17 making it clear that I think until the expert witness tenders, gives his

18 evidence here, there will be several matters that we will be addressing

19 ourselves which will require your presence here. Unless it is absolutely

20 vital that you go back to your country, we would like you to be here. The

21 reason, Mr. Ackerman, is this: That in preparation for the closing part

22 of these proceedings, preparation for your briefs, et cetera, we intend

23 to, and we will be utilising these next weeks ourselves. We intend to

24 draw your attention to particular matters which could be matters of fact

25 or matters of law that we would like you to address or give more attention

Page 24128

1 than others. So that will facilitate also the entire exercise that we

2 will need to do at the very end. But we will come back to you. We will

3 be starting on this exercise immediately Monday in cooperation with our

4 staff. And as we go along, we will be identifying these areas where we

5 would need you or would suggest that you pay more -- give more attention.

6 All right?

7 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's fine. My return ticket is

9 actually for 1 May. I have no need to go back to the US before then. So

10 I'm sure the Registry will understand the need for my remaining here at

11 least during the period we're working --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If there are any problems, I think we can --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think there will be. I was in

14 communication with them about it a little bit yesterday.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If there are problems, we'll make our position known

16 to the Registrar. The Registrar is a very understanding person and very

17 cooperative. So I have no reason to doubt that. Okay.

18 So we'll meet tomorrow morning at 9.00 here in this courtroom and

19 we'll start with the videolink. And I hope everything will be in place so

20 as not to waste time because we have got two witnesses.

21 Do you anticipate to have the first one finished in the morning

22 session or not?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think both direct examinations will

24 be roughly what you saw this morning, 30 minutes to an hour, so we could

25 even finish both witnesses in half a day. Just depends on the

Page 24129

1 cross-examination.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Who will be taking these witnesses from

3 the Prosecution's side?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm taking one, and Ms. Chana's taking the other.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll meet tomorrow morning. I thank you.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.21 a.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of January,

8 2003, at 9.00 a.m.