Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24130

1 Friday, 16 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, if you're ready, please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 Case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to

10 you. Can you follow the proceedings in a language that you can

11 understand? His microphone is not on.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

13 can follow in a language I understand.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,

16 Sureta Chana, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you all.

18 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

20 I'm here with Aleksandar Vujic and Cynthia Dresden.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you all.

22 I understand that one of the witnesses has a problem.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: One of the witness is ill, Your Honour, and is not

24 able to attend. That would be number 48. What we have is number 49.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the consequence of that? He will be heard

Page 24131

1 some other time or you're giving up?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: We don't know. We may give up. I won't know for

3 another day or two about his current medical condition. It may be such

4 that he can't even testify in the future. It came as a bit of a surprise

5 to us yesterday, and we haven't had a chance to look into it very much.

6 That's where we are. I have another matter to raise in private session,

7 if we can.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 24132












12 Page 24132 redacted, private session














Page 24133












12 Page 24133 redacted, private session














Page 24134












12 Page 24134 redacted, private session














Page 24135












12 Page 24135 redacted, private session














Page 24136

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning again once more, Mr. Talic. Now

23 the members of the public can follow the proceedings.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. As I explained to you earlier on, you are

Page 24137

1 about to start giving evidence in this ongoing case against

2 Radoslav Brdjanin. And our Rules require that before you do so, you enter

3 a declaration, a solemn declaration equivalent to an oath that in the

4 course of your testimony, you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

5 nothing but the truth. You are -- do you understand that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Can I start?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, not yet. When I tell you, please. I appreciate

8 your enthusiasm to give evidence, but you will do it when I tell you. You

9 are going to be handed the text of this solemn declaration now. Please

10 take it in your hand, read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

11 undertaking with us.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. Now, what's going to

17 happen is that you will first be asked a series of questions by Mr.

18 Ackerman. Mr. Ackerman, I suppose, you have met already. He is the lead

19 counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He is the lead counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin. After

22 he's finished with his set of questions, you will then be asked a series

23 of questions in cross-examination by --

24 MS. KORNER: Ms. Chana, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Ms. Chana for the Prosecution. And your duty in

Page 24138

1 terms of the solemn declaration that you have made is to answer all

2 questions truthfully and fully, irrespective of who is putting them to

3 you. You understand that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. I understand.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So Mr. Ackerman is going to first with

6 his first question. Mr. Ackerman, please proceed.


8 [Witness testified via videolink]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Ackerman:

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Talic. How are you today?

12 A. I'm fine, thank you. How are you?

13 Q. Fine, thank you. Would you tell the Chamber when and where you

14 were born, please.

15 A. I was born in Celinac on the 20th of April 1940 in Zdravka Celera

16 Street, Celinac, near Banja Luka.

17 Q. Where did you live in the years 1991 and 1992?

18 A. I lived in Celinac up until 1995.

19 Q. Mr. Talic, I have a series of questions that I'm going to ask you,

20 and I would request that you listen very carefully to my questions and

21 make sure that you confine your answer to the questions that I --

22 A. Fine.

23 Q. Is that acceptable to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know Radoslav Brdjanin?

Page 24139

1 A. Very well.

2 Q. How long have you known Radoslav Brdjanin?

3 A. I have known him ever since he started school in Celinac. He

4 lived with us, that is, in a Muslim house and went to school there. And

5 he was director in Krajina of two companies, Gradjenje and Standard.

6 These two work units were united together, unified into a company called

7 Krajina. He was born some 6 kilometres away from me. I know him very

8 well. I know his family very well. And he knows very well our family,

9 the Talics.

10 Q. You just told the Chamber that when he went to school in Celinac

11 that he lived with a Muslim family. Do you know the name of that family?

12 A. Yes, I know. Junuz Jusic. He lived with Junuz Jusic.

13 Q. You mentioned in an answer a moment ago that he at one point

14 became a director of a company in Celinac. Did you have any association

15 with the company, the Standard company --

16 A. In Banja Luka.

17 Q. Okay. Did you have any association with that company when he was

18 its director?

19 A. Yes. He was a director of a working unit in Banja Luka, and I

20 worked as a construction worker in Banja Luka. And there were two work

21 units, Gradjenje and Standard. I worked in Standard, and he became the

22 director of the Standard company. The general director was someone else.

23 Well, it was a long time ago, I've forgotten it. But for a while before

24 the war, he was director of Standard. He was my director, therefore.

25 Q. During how long a period of time was he the director while you

Page 24140

1 were working there? Do you recall?

2 A. I could not tell you precisely, but for a year or two. I'm not

3 sure.

4 Q. Did you observe during that time whether he treated -- well, let

5 me ask the question differently. Were there other non-Serb employees of

6 Standard at the time? You weren't the only one, were you?

7 A. I wasn't the only one, nor did Mr. Brdjanin mind, nor did Muslims

8 themselves mind that. I can tell you on my part that I was very well

9 received and that nobody paid attention to ethnicities. I can tell you

10 that there were quite a few Muslims who worked at Krajina. I can also say

11 that I never felt with Mr. Brdjanin, although I was not on such intimate

12 terms with him so as to sit down with him at a table with him and talk.

13 But before the war broke out, when the war broke out, I sat with him in

14 the office in Celinac, and he actually helped me quite a great deal.

15 Q. We'll come to that in a moment.

16 A. Yes. But what I want to say is the following: I was very well

17 received at -- in Krajina. I had my own brigade and whatever I needed I

18 received. I was -- also appeared in the papers, and Mr. Brdjanin is very

19 well aware of that. And I also am very well familiar with the events

20 surrounding Mr. Brdjanin.

21 Q. I neglected to ask you specifically, although I think it's clear

22 from your testimony, by ethnicity you are a Muslim, aren't you, Bosniak?

23 A. I'm a Muslim, Bosnian. Well, they can call me whatever they want.

24 Q. Back now to Standard, as the director of Standard, did you ever

25 see any indication that Mr. Brdjanin treated the non-Serb employees any

Page 24141

1 differently from the Serb employees?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You've already told us that you were living in Celinac throughout

4 the year 1992. Did there come a time in Celinac in 1992 when the Muslim

5 population became frightened of Serbs?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were there any -- did the Serb population of Celinac change any

8 during the year 1992?

9 A. As for the Serbs in Celinac, we had no trouble with them. We

10 lived as brethren. I lived in the very centre of Celinac. People knew me

11 very well, and I have never been afraid of the Serbs. We will come to

12 that later. As for 1992, there were no problems up until 1993. It was in

13 1993 that the unrest began.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's a transcript correction. It's

15 page 11, line 17. The witness said that he received some kind of an award

16 from the company that was mentioned in the newspaper. That didn't quite

17 get in the transcript the way he said it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't find it in line 17. It may be different in

19 yours.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: He said: "I was also appeared in the papers," in

21 page 11, line 17. And what he said there was that he had received an

22 award, and that appeared in the papers.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, I see. Is that correct, Mr. Talic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was an award that wasn't a

25 monetary one. It was -- they just wrote in the papers that I was

Page 24142

1 appreciated as a very good worker, and this constituted a great award for

2 me. But I will tell you later on what sort of an award I was given by

3 Brdjanin and what he did for me. That's something that we will talk about

4 later.


6 Q. Have you ever heard of any statements made by Mr. Brdjanin against

7 non-Serb people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You never heard him make any of those kinds of statements?

10 A. Well, I personally didn't hear that. To tell you the truth, there

11 was no electricity. It wasn't possible to watch television so much or

12 listen to the radio. Occasionally we would have that, but specifically

13 that I heard any kind of order from Brdjanin, Brdjanin was a leader, at a

14 leadership position in Celinac, and he only contributed to the calming of

15 the situation. But we will come to that later. He actually established

16 order and discipline in Celinac. So there were no excesses which were

17 unwanted by any ethnic group, and particularly by the Muslims.

18 Q. What I'm trying --

19 A. That's as much as I want to say.

20 Q. -- at any time, did anyone tell you that Mr. Brdjanin had made

21 comments, speeches, and so forth that were very derogatory and against

22 Muslim people? Did you ever hear that from any source at all?

23 A. I didn't hear anything like that, and I cannot confirm that.

24 Q. All right. During the time that you were aware of Mr. Brdjanin

25 being a director at Standard, what kind of a director was he?

Page 24143

1 A. Great. We didn't have any extra salary for four or five months.

2 He was -- there was another director who managed the firm badly. And the

3 firm was almost in ruins. It was almost ruined, practically ruined. As

4 soon as Mr. Brdjanin came, we immediately received half of our extra

5 salary. In the third month, we received the second part of the extra

6 salary. And then afterwards, our salaries were very, very good. I know

7 him very well as a construction engineer, designer, as a person, and I

8 never noticed. He knew very well how many Muslims there were in Standard,

9 and everything else. So that man never -- at least, I never heard him

10 make such statements. I know that -- I'm familiar with practically 90 per

11 cent of the kind of conduct of his towards the Muslim population in

12 Celinac. But we'll come to that later.

13 Q. These statements that you just alluded to, again, do you know if

14 any Muslims in Celinac became frightened as a result of hearing

15 Mr. Brdjanin say anything at all?

16 A. I didn't hear from anyone that Brdjanin intimidated Muslims. It's

17 normal that there was fear amongst the people, both Muslims and Serbs and

18 also the Croats when the war began in Bosnia and Herzegovina, when

19 everybody was waging war against everyone else. So it's natural that the

20 situation changed and that the people were frightened. That is true. But

21 as far as hearing anything about Brdjanin, I specifically did not, and I

22 cannot say what is not true and what I did not hear. That's about it.

23 Q. Did you just tell the Chamber that all the people in Celinac were

24 frightened, including Serbs? Is that what your position is?

25 A. That's true. That's true. I went to the municipality building --

Page 24144

1 Q. Let me ask you this.

2 A. I beg your pardon.

3 Q. I think we'll come to that in a moment, so let's just wait until

4 we get there. Do you know of your own personal knowledge of any Muslim

5 people or any non-Serb people in Celinac or elsewhere who were hurt in any

6 way by things that Mr. Brdjanin either said or did?

7 A. I did not notice anything like that and cannot say anything about

8 that. I am saying again that I never heard Mr. Brdjanin say anything like

9 that, nor did I hear anybody else say that. People know me well in

10 Celinac. I live in the centre of town, about 500 metres away. So in

11 1992, 1993 all the way up to 1995, I sat with Serbs in cafes in the

12 municipality, and they never looked at me in a weird way, nor did I look

13 at them in any strange way. I never heard of anyone, a Muslim, a Romanie,

14 a Croat, that Brdjanin had said this or that or anything like that. So I

15 never heard anything like that. Later we will come to the specific

16 encounter between Brdjanin and myself at the municipal building.

17 Q. I want to ask you now the other side of the question that I just

18 asked you. In late 1991 or any time in 1992, do you know of any non-Serb

19 persons, any Muslim persons, who were helped in any way by Mr. Brdjanin?

20 A. Well, I can say that he did help. He would come to the municipal

21 building. People at the municipal building told me that, that he would

22 come and that he would try to calm down the situation to prevent

23 complications from the Serb and Muslim inhabitants, and to continue to

24 live the way we lived before.

25 Q. The Chamber has heard about an incident in Celinac where a large

Page 24145

1 number of Muslims were gathered and perhaps even placed on buses. Do you

2 know anything about that situation?

3 A. I know very well.

4 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what you observed during that incident,

5 where you were, what you observed, what you saw happen?

6 A. Listen, if I can say before that something happened, that we had

7 to go to buses, I'm not sure exactly in 1992, there was the encounter

8 between myself and Brdjanin at the municipal building.

9 Q. Go ahead and tell the Chamber about the encounter between you and

10 Brdjanin at the municipal building.

11 A. Very well. Before that, I went to the SUP or the MUP building, to

12 the police. My daughter, it was Bajram, that's our Muslim holiday. I

13 went to SUP, to the police, as they know me very well because my daughter

14 happened to be in Kotor Varos for Bajram at a relative's place. And then

15 on the second day of Bajram, Kotor Varos was blocked. And I was asking

16 for a police car and driver, for the police to provide a driver and a car

17 so I could bring my daughter from Kotor Varos. The police commander,

18 because there was a fuel shortage going on, told me, but still they knew

19 who I was and what my situation was, so they did give me a police car, but

20 none of the police drivers wanted to go. So I remembered or I -- that I

21 should go and see Mr. Brdjanin at the municipality. So I was fortunate

22 because that day, Mr. Brdjanin said that he was supposed to go to a

23 meeting in Prnjavor. And since the mosque house in Prijedor was burned,

24 Brdjanin was called to come to Celinac. I met him on the staircase, and I

25 said: "Mr. Brdjanin, I would like to speak to you." And he said: "Yes,

Page 24146

1 very well. Go to the office, I'll be up there in a minute." And I came

2 to the office and we sat down together and we talked about all the

3 problems, about everything. And he asked me: "Talic, what is bothering

4 you?" And I told him what it was. And he said: "Yes, Mr. Brdjanin will

5 help you."

6 At 12.00, maybe 11.30 or 12.00, I'm not sure, the meeting was

7 supposed to be held at the Celinac municipal office. So we went out at

8 11.30 from his office. At that time, Mile Maksimovic came out. I don't

9 know what he was, chief of the ministry or something. And he said from

10 the door: "Mr. Maksimovic, make me a special permit and secure me a

11 driver and a car so that Meho can be taken. When you make this permit,

12 bring it to my office, I'm bringing a stamp and I will stamp it so that

13 Meho can go and bring his daughter back." And he said: "Very well."

14 Ilija came back and he made the certificate for the driver and the vehicle

15 and he took it to the office. And Rajko Orasanin was the driver of the

16 car. He took me to Kotor Varos, and I went and I brought my daughter

17 back, and I returned, and everything went very well. I found my daughter

18 in Kotor Varos, and I managed to bring her back. So this is what

19 Mr. Brdjanin did for me.

20 Secondly, let me tell you about the buses.

21 Q. Okay. Let me interrupt you and ask you a question or two about

22 the other matter first. You said that your daughter was in Kotor Varos

23 for Bajram, and you heard that Kotor Varos was blocked. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you mean by that that she was in a situation where she

Page 24147

1 couldn't come back home?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what was your concern? Why were you concerned about your

4 daughter at that stage? Were you concerned about her safety, or you just

5 wanted her to be back home?

6 A. The Muslims and the Croats up there had already fled. They left

7 Kotor Varos and fled to the woods because they were simply afraid. There

8 was -- there was shooting from the Muslim side. It was Bajram, and they

9 were celebrating up in a village called Ravne. And simply Kotor Varos was

10 blocked. Nobody could enter or leave Kotor Varos. The telephone lines

11 were cut, and I was worried about how to -- how everything will pass and

12 what the situation will turn out to be. So I went to see Mr. Brdjanin,

13 and he helped me out. He gave me a car and a driver. I went to

14 Kotor Varos. The municipal car was stopped at the checkpoint, and they

15 allowed me to go in. I went into Kotor Varos. I found my daughter, and

16 when I found her I returned. So everything passed very well, and

17 everything turned out all right. That's it.

18 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Chamber about when this happened. It was

19 Bajram of 1992, I take it.

20 A. It was Bajram, thereabouts. 1991, at the end of 1991 or in early

21 1992. I don't remember exactly. It has been ten years since then, 10 to

22 12 years. So you forget some of that. But this is the situation when Mr.

23 Brdjanin helped me out in this way.

24 Q. After that was the situation with the buses. Correct?

25 A. No. Before we were boarded on to the buses, I personally went to

Page 24148

1 the SUP, and two other cousins of mine who were from the outskirts of

2 Celinac, Mehovci and Basici, Mr. Brdjanin knows those places. The Muslims

3 all gathered in the centre of Celinac because it was safer there, more

4 secure. They were not expelled by anyone, they were not expelled, but

5 they were afraid. Fear was prevalent amongst the people. So we had all

6 gathered in Celinac. 1.860 of us were there in Celinac. So before the

7 buses became to deport us, to drive us anywhere, I don't know, but before

8 that, it happened that two evenings before that, 22 Muslim houses were set

9 on fire. When we saw that, I personally went to SUP, and these two

10 relatives of mine from Mehovci and Basici, we went to the SUP and I told

11 them there "is there any possibility that you can protect us?" And they

12 said: "Mr. Talic, we don't know to do with us, never mind what to do with

13 you. We can just tell you go. We don't want to be responsible for

14 anyone. Anyone can do whatever they decide to do."

15 So the same thing they told me at SUP, they told me at the

16 municipal building as well because everybody knows me there very well.

17 Like I said, I sat in cafes with them. I never had any bad looks from any

18 of them. But the refugees who came from the outside or the Serb

19 population that was leaving their homes were coming towards Banja Luka and

20 Celinac, we were afraid of them because I also was a refugee. I know what

21 it is like to be a refugee, to eat refugee bread and live under a refugee

22 sky. So I went to the SUP to tell them. So when they told us all of

23 this, we all gathered together, us Muslims, and we held a meeting. And we

24 had decided to go towards Banja Luka, and we came to the gas station in

25 Celinac. In the meantime, these hamlets, Radovci, Brezik, and all these

Page 24149

1 other hamlets, everybody from there gathered at the gas station there.

2 There was 1.860 of us Muslims. There were maybe 50 or 60 Croats as well.

3 I don't know the exact number.

4 In the meantime, Dr. Mile Kuzmanovic came to the gas station and

5 took us to the municipal building and to the post office. Not an hour had

6 gone by. Women, children, the elderly, the feeble, and the younger people

7 were located in the municipality, in the offices there, in the basement of

8 the post office and so on. So out of curiosity, I wanted to see what

9 would happen.

10 So in the meantime, I could see a car that came from the direction

11 of Banja Luka. It stopped in front of the municipal building. I was

12 quiet. I heard upstairs in the municipal offices some kind of shouting or

13 a quarrel, and I heard Brdjanin's voice. In the meantime, Gojko Gligoric,

14 I don't know whether he was a corporal or a shift leader, anyway, he was

15 in the army. He wasn't any kind of -- what can I say? He wasn't any kind

16 of important person. But anyway, he picked up the phone in the military

17 point. But any time when he came back from the army, we used to sit down,

18 have a cigarette, we would talk. He would say: "Meho, are there any

19 problems or not?" So then I was quiet, and Gojko literally told me that

20 Mr. Brdjanin said and how some people wanted to blow up the municipal

21 building and the post office and to kill us all. Gojko literally said if

22 it's necessary to kill the Muslims, I will do it myself if they're guilty.

23 And I heard Brdjanin tapped Gojko on the shoulder. And in the morning,

24 Brdjanin ordered that buses come, so the buses came in the morning to take

25 us away.

Page 24150












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24151

1 Brdjanin ordered us to go to the elementary school, to stay there

2 and to be secured properly, to be guarded properly. And this was done.

3 We went to the school. We were guarded. We were protected. Food was

4 brought. Bread, and so on. We weren't hungry or starving for eight days.

5 After eight days, whether this was Brdjanin's order or not I don't

6 know, but we were supposed to go to our houses, all of us, under escort,

7 and all of those who had cattle or poultry, and then also to clean up a

8 little bit, and this is what we did. We went to our homes, and we came

9 back. I don't know how long we were there. For 15 days or something.

10 After that, we were allowed to go to our homes, and we were guaranteed

11 that nothing would happen to us. And this is what happened. That's how

12 it was. I don't know whose order this was, but it's probably Brdjanin's

13 order. And I -- just one second. We went to our homes, and there were no

14 problems. We continued living there, working. Since there were quite a

15 lot of people and since all the inhabitants couldn't receive all of the

16 Muslims who had come from the outside, those from the Vrbanja,

17 Gornji Seher, Vrbas, and so on.

18 So then in 1992 and early 1993, all the younger people, the youth,

19 both boys and girls, young men and women, had already started to leave the

20 territory of Republika Srpska and to go to seek their fortunes outside, in

21 other countries. They organised in Banja Luka. There were these

22 organisations. Of course, you had to pay for transport. They went for

23 sure. I have a son and a daughter, and the same thing happened. They

24 went. They left, and I stayed until 1995, until August 1995. I saw that

25 things were not going to turn out well, that things were brewing, war was

Page 24152

1 going on, money was running out. It was difficult to survive. From the

2 municipality, we asked, we appealed to them. We talked. They sent

3 people. They made a list of those who wanted to leave. They were allowed

4 to leave. They should make a statement that they were leaving, and that

5 is what we did. I was amongst those people also.

6 Since my children had gone to Germany, I have a brother there who

7 has been working in Germany for 40 years. My children went to him. And

8 in 1995, in August, I went to Davor. I crossed into Croatia. I received

9 all sorts of guarantees from my brother, but in Zagreb it was not --

10 nobody could be received by Germany any more, so I had to stay in Zagreb

11 or in Croatia. My son-in-law lived in my house. He's a Serb. He was

12 living in my house in 1998 when I got in touch with him, and I returned

13 again. He said I could come back, that it was safe. So my wife and I

14 returned, came back to our house without any problems. To this very day,

15 I am living there, I'm working there. I am sick, so I work as much as I

16 can. I am surviving, so to say. When the Serbs don't have work, I don't

17 have work either. This is normal. There's a crisis. So even after I

18 left in 1995, there was still some Muslims who remained in Celinac, and no

19 harm came to them. But this was perhaps up to about 80 Muslims who

20 remained, and that's how it ended, and that's it.

21 Q. All right. I have a lot of questions to ask you about some of the

22 things that you said. You talked at one point of being in front of the

23 municipal building, and Mr. Brdjanin had arrived and gone inside, and you

24 said you could hear his voice from inside the building. Do you have any

25 recollection as to what it was you heard him saying?

Page 24153

1 A. I couldn't hear exactly what he was saying, but I could just hear

2 him shouting, raising his voice up there to those officials. I heard that

3 personally, that he was shouting at them. This was the second or the

4 third floor. The windows were closed, of course. So it wasn't possible

5 to hear everything that he was saying. But I know very well that he

6 ordered that we should be put in the elementary school and that there

7 should be a guard for us.

8 Q. Were you then made prisoners there in the elementary school? Were

9 you in custody? Were you prisoners, or were you being protected? Which

10 was it?

11 A. Protected us. Nobody was detained. We could go out. We could

12 walk in front of the municipal building and the post office. It was all

13 close by. We were not detained. We could go out freely. They were

14 really protecting us.

15 Q. Do you have a sense of who among the leadership in Celinac is

16 responsible for you and the 859 other Muslims being protected there at

17 that time? 1.859 is what I meant to say if I didn't say that.

18 A. Well, I gave a statement about these three Serbs, but I don't want

19 to mention their names. You have it written there. Do you have them

20 written down there?

21 Q. You didn't understand my question, sir. My question was: Who do

22 you believe is responsible --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- for the 1.860 persons in Celinac being protected and placed in

25 the school and being protected? Who do you think is responsible for that?

Page 24154

1 A. Mr. Brdjanin. And three other Serbs who reported to the military

2 police. When we wanted to go to Banja Luka, they informed the military

3 police, these three Serbs - two of them are still alive; one of them is

4 dead - but I wouldn't want them to have any consequences, because of their

5 neighbours, people are people. There are extremists on all sides, and

6 there will still be such people. So if it's not necessary, I wouldn't

7 want to mention their names, but I can do that. So they reported to the

8 military police. They were in Kotor Varos. They came, they stopped us.

9 In the meantime, as I said, Mile Kuzmanovic, the doctor, came and returned

10 us to the municipal building, and after that Brdjanin was called for sure

11 because he came, he had heard about it. So I give recognition for this,

12 the most to Mr. Brdjanin. He personally saved the Muslim population. It

13 was him personally. I stand by this.

14 Q. You told the Chamber that in 1992 that several of the young

15 people, and the words you used were "they left to seek their fortunes

16 elsewhere." My question is were these young people forced to leave, or

17 did they leave of their own free will?

18 A. They left of their own free will.

19 Q. When you left, were you forced to leave or did you leave of your

20 own free will?

21 A. Of my own will. No one forced me to, no one. We were merely

22 protected. There were two people from the municipality building who made

23 a list of those who wanted to leave, and those were to be escorted. And

24 those who didn't want to could remain. I told my children, son and

25 daughter, that they should leave as well. I told them: "You have the

Page 24155

1 papers. Leave. You will inherit this world." And as for us, the older

2 ones, we'll see what the situation will be like. And that is how it

3 happened. I sent my two children away. They were in no way forced to

4 leave. I ordered them to leave Celinac. There were many parents who had

5 such young children who asked them to leave the territory of Republika

6 Srpska. They did not even go to the federation. Many of them went

7 abroad.

8 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Talic. That's all I have.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Chana, please.

10 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Chana:

12 Q. Mr. Talic --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You may remain seated if you prefer.


15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Talic. Mr. Talic, are you hearing me?

16 MS. CHANA: Sorry.

17 A. Very well.

18 Q. Mr. Talic, do you hear me? Good morning, Mr. Talic.

19 A. I hear you.

20 Q. Now --

21 A. I hear you well.

22 Q. -- please, you said you worked with Mr. Brdjanin in this factory

23 called Krajina. Is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Do you know a factory called -- a workshop called 25th November?

Page 24156

1 A. This was a company in Celinac, a construction company.

2 Q. Wasn't that the company that Mr. Brdjanin also worked in?

3 A. Yes. Before arriving to Krajina.

4 Q. But you worked with him in the Krajina company?

5 A. I started working with Krajina before him. He started working

6 there later on when he came to Celinac. There was also the 25th November,

7 the construction company in Celinac which had suffered severe losses.

8 Mr. Brdjanin then came to work for it and managed to pull it out of the

9 crisis. And when he did so, I heard from some people that he had some

10 trouble with the people -- with his associates working in the company.

11 Mr. Brdjanin is a good man, educated man, a very sensible man. Krajina

12 felt this, and that is why Krajina decided to employ him.

13 Q. Mr. Talic, thank you very much, but I'd be grateful if you would

14 confine yourself to answering my questions, please.

15 Have you been in touch with Mr. Brdjanin since he has been

16 arrested?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you been in touch with any of his family members?

19 A. No, I haven't.

20 Q. And why is that, Mr. Talic?

21 A. To tell you the truth, I had my personal problems with my health

22 condition. I had to go to the hospital. And it is my health condition

23 that prevented me from keeping in touch with his family, and that is the

24 only reason. I was admitted to the hospital. I suffered severe

25 haemorrhage. I had a heart attack. My liver is a very feeble one. I

Page 24157

1 have a number of diseases that I suffer from. I would have liked to have

2 come to The Hague directly.

3 Q. Mr. Talic, you said that you were very good friends, family

4 friends with the family and Mr. Brdjanin; and yet, after Mr. Brdjanin was

5 arrested, you had no contact whatsoever with his family. Is that your

6 position, Mr. Talic?

7 A. I do not know Mr. Brdjanin's family, nor have I ever spent any

8 time with them. I was only in touch with Mr. Brdjanin. As I have told

9 you, this took place in the municipality building in Celinac. I know

10 Mr. Brdjanin very well, and I know how he behaved in the company and so

11 on.

12 Q. Where was it that you would meet Mr. Brdjanin that you know him so

13 well?

14 A. I knew him because I used to see him in the company, and I

15 specifically met with him in the municipal assembly of Celinac. I sat

16 there with him for two hours. We talked about all sorts of things. And I

17 did not notice that he had anything against Muslims.

18 Q. You just told the Court in your examination-in-chief, Mr. Talic,

19 that you're familiar with 90 per cent of Mr. Brdjanin's conduct. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. 90 per cent of his conduct in the Municipal Assembly of Celinac

22 where he tried to protect us as people. He was guarding us there, making

23 sure nothing bad would happen to us. I guarantee that.

24 Q. Mr. Talic, yet you also told this Court that you've not heard any

25 of Mr. Brdjanin's public speeches. Is that correct?

Page 24158

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You never listened to the TV?

3 A. I've told you a moment ago that there was not much electricity

4 during the war. Secondly, I had my work obligation, and I spent very

5 little time at home.

6 Q. Mr. Talic, did you listen to the radio at all?

7 A. There was no electricity. And I was constantly carrying out my

8 work obligation. And if I was not carrying out my work obligation at

9 Orasje, I was in Celinac. Maybe only some three hours a day. But there

10 was not much electricity for anyone, not for Serbs or Muslims.

11 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Talic, that Mr. Brdjanin did, in fact, make

12 many anti-Muslim comments utterances in his public speeches including

13 calling Muslims balijas and non-Christian scum?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Are you aware now that he made such utterances, or are you still

16 blissfully unaware?

17 A. I know nothing of that.

18 Q. You said that you were very familiar with everything which was

19 happening in Celinac Municipality. Is that true?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. And you obviously know that Celinac was a Serb-dominated

22 municipality?

23 A. As a municipality, the predominant population was the Serb one.

24 Now, the centre is a small town of Celinac where 80 per cent.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, 90 per cent.

Page 24159

1 A. Was Muslim populated. However, when you look at the entire

2 territory of the municipality, that's where the Serb population was

3 predominant.


5 Q. Would it be true to say that there were no more than 1.440 Muslims

6 in the entire municipality?

7 A. 1.860 in the entire territory of Celinac Municipality.

8 Q. And would it also be true to say that by the end of 1995, 190

9 Muslims remained in this municipality?

10 A. In August 1995, there were three buses having 60 passengers each,

11 meaning 180 of us, who were headed on these buses for Croatia. And maybe

12 some 50 to 80 Muslims remained there throughout this time who never left

13 Celinac. They didn't want to go. These were Muslims. And they were not

14 driven away by Serbs. They remained there and didn't experience any

15 trouble. And that is the truth.

16 Q. So Mr. Talic, the truth -- the fact of the matter is most of the

17 Muslims did leave the municipality, and I'll come to in a minute as to why

18 they left.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. You said all the people in the municipality were frightened, which

21 included Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. Is that your position?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. What were the Serbs frightened of?

24 A. The Serbs were frightened, as far as I know -- that is, I know

25 that they were frightened because I visited some of the families that I

Page 24160

1 was friends with. And we had our bags packed in our home, and so did the

2 Serbs. And when the war broke out and when there was a threat of the

3 Serbs' positions being shelled, well, as far as I understand, this is what

4 they were afraid of. It doesn't have to be necessarily true, but I am

5 convinced that that is where their fears lay.

6 Q. But the Serbs did not leave the municipality, did they, Mr. Talic?

7 A. No, nor were the positions around Banja Luka bombed, nor were

8 there any war operations going on.

9 Q. Mr. Talic, in early April 1992, May 1992, were there not severe

10 economic and social restrictions placed on the Muslim population of

11 Celinac Municipality?

12 A. As far as I know, there were not any restrictions. The Muslims,

13 that is, we, the elderly people, or maybe some people five years my

14 junior, we did not go out into the centre of Celinac, to the shops. Well,

15 we were afraid of drunkards, some of those knew us, and we would actually

16 send women to the shops instead. Many people knew our wives, and our

17 wives would go to the shops to buy whatever was necessary. And my wife,

18 for instance, would always go whenever we needed something. And she was

19 told by Serb sales ladies and salesmen "why isn't Meho coming to shop?

20 Nothing will happen to him." That is what they told everyone. But to be

21 frank, we were afraid of the drunkards, and then there were Serb refugees,

22 and they were afraid of them as well. But I was never afraid of the local

23 Serbs, nor am I afraid today. I told you I was the first one to return.

24 I've had no problems. My son has returned and is visiting cafes and is

25 not encountering any problems. That's it.

Page 24161

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, page 30, line 8, I'm told the witness

3 said in answer to the last question or part answer to the last question:

4 "When there was threats from NATO, we were both scared, Serbs and

5 Muslims." I think that's what he said. We can check with him if you

6 like.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose, Mr. Talic, you need to confirm that to

8 us. Did you mention NATO at all?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Okay. Let's proceed, Ms. Chana, please.

11 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours. But could I have the usher

12 to bring out P450 so it will be available to me when I come to it. Thank

13 you.

14 Q. Mr. Talic, in April or May 1992, did you hear that the Bosnian

15 Serb authorities broadcast instructions on the radio requiring all Muslims

16 in Celinac to surrender any weapons in their possession? And this was

17 supposed to be done to the crisis staff by 10 May 1992.

18 A. This isn't correct. Not the crisis staff, but the SUP in Celinac.

19 I was among those who had weapons, and I had the proper license for it.

20 And when the order was issued for the weapons to be surrendered to the

21 SUP, that is what we did, and we surrendered them. And now that you're

22 mentions weapons, I returned in February 1998, and some two or three

23 months later the chief of the SUP told me "Meho, did you submit the

24 request for the return of the weapons?" And I told "no, I haven't, but I

25 will." And he told me: "Well, you should do it in good time because very

Page 24162

1 soon we will start returning weapons." And this is how it went. I was

2 first among the Muslims to be returned my weapons when such time came.

3 And now I have weapons with the proper documentation, and I have no

4 trouble about it from the police, the SUP, or anyone else. I am a legal

5 owner of weapons.

6 Q. Mr. Talic, why were only the Muslims required to submit their

7 weapons and not the Serbs?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Mr. Talic, do you also remember - and I want to show you P450 -

10 that on 23rd July 1992, the war presidency of Celinac issued a resolution

11 on the status of the non-Serb population on the territory of the

12 Municipality of Celinac. Do you know anything about this particular

13 resolution before we show it to you?

14 It's now on the ELMO, Mr. Talic. Can you see it now?

15 Do you see this document on the ELMO, Mr. Talic?

16 A. I can see it.

17 Q. There are some names at the front there. Do you know any of these

18 people who are named under Article 2?

19 A. I know all of them.

20 Q. And they are forbidden -- these are the people -- do you want some

21 time to read the second page of this document? Perhaps page 6.

22 MS. CHANA: The witness hasn't seen the document before, so

23 perhaps he ought to have a bit of time to look at it before I can question

24 him on it.

25 Q. Have you seen this document before, Mr. Talic? Sorry.

Page 24163

1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. You have seen it?

3 A. I've seen both of them. And read them.

4 Q. When was it that you first saw this document, Mr. Talic?

5 A. As soon as they were typed out, maybe some 15 days later, I had

6 them in my hands. I personally. May I continue with my answer?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The first and last names of these young men contained in this list

9 here, all these are educated people, graduates of universities, young men

10 of repute. There were engineers among them, people of different profiles,

11 occupations.

12 Q. But --

13 A. Now, what the reason was for them being unwanted in Celinac, this

14 is something I could not find out. Simply this list said that they were

15 unwanted in Celinac and that nobody wanted them to move around in Celinac.

16 Secondly, this other document that was written, that Muslims and

17 Croats were forbidden to swim in the Vrbas River, this is true. This

18 document was indeed issued. Now, who ordered that these documents be

19 typed out is something I never found out, although I did try. I did not

20 find out, and even today I do not know who ordered and who typed these

21 documents out. I am constantly in touch with the officials in the

22 municipality, in the SUP and elsewhere, but I have never been able to find

23 out who was it who issued the order and who typed the documents. The

24 truth is that they were, indeed, written and made public.

25 Q. Mr. Talic, you are somebody who knows quite a lot what happened.

Page 24164

1 Can you not give us, suggest any reason as to why these restrictions

2 should have been placed on these individuals? Why do you think this was

3 so?

4 A. I have no idea. The only thing I can say is that the persons

5 involved were young, educated, graduates of universities, medical workers.

6 All of them were educated, all those contained on this list. Now, why

7 this was so? Who ordered or typed it out?

8 Q. Now, Mr. Talic, the -- you said the Muslims left Celinac

9 Municipality because they were in fear. Is that correct?

10 A. Correct. Correct.

11 Q. What was this fear about? What was it based on?

12 A. First, let me tell you, there were intimidations going on.

13 Fire -- 24 houses were set on fire. Mosques were blown up.

14 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ...

15 Who set those houses on fire and who blew up these mosques?

16 A. How should I know? One wasn't allowed to go out in the evening.

17 We would gather in larger groups and would hide in safer places,

18 basements, houses of stronger structure. We did not dare to go out and

19 see what was going on because we were afraid of what might happen.

20 Therefore, I do not know who was it who demolished these structures, who

21 set fire to them. I only know that it was terrible. And as I've said,

22 where there was a house, where a hodza would have his liturgy, this house

23 would be blown up. And that's why Mr. Brdjanin had to make this

24 intervention in Celinac, and that's why he went there. And on that day I

25 talked to him, and that day I told you he helped me get my daughter back.

Page 24165

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I recognise you, Mr. Ackerman, at some point in

2 time.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I was just concerned that there's no date being

4 established for these events.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Talic, perhaps you could be more specific

6 as regards to the date especially since you now sort of put in one vast

7 category the burning down of houses and blowing up of mosques together

8 with your visit, Mr. Talic, to help you recover your daughter.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall the date. But this

10 indeed did happen. All these houses were -- are now repaired,

11 reconstructed through donations, international donations. Only perhaps

12 three or four houses still need to be repaired. All the rest have all

13 been repaired. And life goes on without any problems.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How many Muslims have returned to Celinac?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, approximately some 200 to 300

16 persons, mostly elderly ones. And among them, some perhaps 20 younger

17 men.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Chana. Sorry for interrupting you.

19 MS. CHANA: That's all right, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Break.

21 MS. CHANA: I was wondering if it was the appropriate time for the

22 break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Talic, we are going to have a short coffee break

24 now, which will also give you a rest. We will reconvene in 25 minutes'

25 time. Thank you.

Page 24166

1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.


4 Yes, Mr. Talic, we are going to proceed. Ms. Chana.

5 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. Mr. Talic, you said there were some meetings which were conducted

7 by the SDS of the Serb leadership with the Muslims in the Celinac

8 Municipality. Were you present at any of these meetings?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which one were you present at?

11 A. I did not attend any meetings.

12 Q. Do you know about the meeting which took place in Popovac, the

13 village of Popovac? This was before July sometime, before this document

14 that I showed you was released.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you sure about the pronunciation, Ms. Chana? If

16 necessary, we'll spell it for him.

17 MS. CHANA: Popovac. Yes, P-o-p-o-v-a-c.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that he gets the --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Popovac.


21 Q. Do you recall about this meeting at all and the incident which

22 happened thereafter?

23 A. No, I do not recall.

24 Q. Do you know anything about the murders of the Sugic brothers -- by

25 the Sugic brothers?

Page 24167

1 A. I heard of that case, yes. Is when you're linking the Sugic's

2 with that, then our Muslims, our young men, went to Popovac or Mehovci, up

3 there, to cut wheat with combine machinery and also with trucks so that

4 the wheat could be cut, put on the trucks, and brought to the warehouse in

5 Popovac. And my son was also there who drove a tractor and the wheat to

6 Popovac.

7 So when all of that was finished, that was true. When they were

8 going from Popovac towards Celinac, the Sugic's came out with weapons,

9 with automatic rifles and machine-guns. I don't know exactly what weapons

10 they had. And 32 of our men were taking the wheat to the mill to be

11 ground so that the soldiers would have food. I'm not sure exactly what

12 the wheat was intended for. Then the Sugic's came out. They set up a

13 barrier and were holding their weapons at the ready. The driver stopped.

14 A police officer came out, Mladen Vrhovac, and two or three other Serbs

15 came out, and they literally said: "Sugic, you can leave so that we can

16 kill the balijas." They said: "No way. While we're there, not a hair on

17 the Muslims' heads can be harmed." And this is what happened. I don't

18 know how long this whole thing lasted, these arguments and everything.

19 And then when they saw that nothing will come of it, that they cannot do

20 what they were intending to do, they withdrew.

21 Our young men came to Celinac. They came back to Celinac alive

22 and well so that everything in the end was okay.

23 Q. Mr. Talic, I'm talking about the incident where the Sugic brothers

24 murdered the Muslims, the Muslim representatives at this meeting, and they

25 were shot and murdered after this beating. You're talking about another

Page 24168

1 incident, Mr. Talic. And you do recall this particular incident. You

2 heard about it, as did everybody else. Is that not correct?

3 A. I did hear that this happened in Popovac, but I don't know which

4 Muslim was actually killed. I did hear about this incident. I know the

5 Sugics. I know them well because Mr. Brdjanin knows this cafe in Popovac

6 belonging to the Sugic's where I also worked. So I know them very well.

7 And the Muslim who was killed, I don't really know his name, but I heard

8 that a Muslim was killed in Mehovci or up there in Popovac.

9 I was talking about the Sugics. When we started to talk about

10 them, I was just saying how they were there when there was talk about the

11 killing of our young men, when they were coming back from Popovac.

12 Q. So you said that they were calling the Muslims balijas. Is that

13 correct, the Sugic brothers?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And yet, you worked for them?

16 A. We were working for the army. The grain was placed in the

17 military warehouse. That was it. That was this incident, the only one

18 incident that happened with us Muslims in that time. Even those I was on

19 work duty and I was at Orasje on a couple of occasions. That's where the

20 Serb army was as well, people knew me. They invited me for coffee, some

21 plum brandy. There were no excesses there, no incidents. I went to

22 Orasje twice. I was the eldest amongst them. My people said I had to go

23 to the work obligation. They didn't want to go without me. At the

24 municipal office, they said: "Meho, come, you have to go, at least a

25 couple of times so there were no problems." And I did go on a couple of

Page 24169

1 occasions even though people protected me because I was the oldest one.

2 So I also worked with the Serb population. I wasn't imposed any kind of

3 quota, how much I had to do. I did a little bit of work. I worked in the

4 garden and so on. There was no coercion. I wasn't mistreated or abused,

5 not just me but many others. I never went by myself. Other people would

6 go with me also. All in all, it was okay, and it ended well for me and

7 for many of our Muslims. So, well, what can you say?

8 Q. Mr. Talic, you would agree with me that this murder of the Muslim

9 representative after that meeting created a great deal of fear amongst the

10 Muslim population, fear for their safety?

11 A. Yes. When this happened, the whole of Mehovci and Basici, their

12 population left that entire area. Mr. Brdjanin knows. This is from that

13 area where he came from, those Muslims. Of course they were frightened,

14 they went down to Kamenovac between Jajce and Banja Luka. And they were

15 in a school at school in Kamenovac for a night or two, and then they were

16 transferred to Celinac to a safer place.

17 Q. Were you aware there was another meeting held by the SDS Bosnian

18 Serb leadership where Brdjanin was present after this particular document

19 was published?

20 A. I personally don't know about that meeting. To tell you the

21 truth, I don't know about the meeting, nor do I know that Mr. Brdjanin was

22 present. I told you I was at Orasje on work obligation and that I had

23 also gone to Banja Luka because I had a brother who was ill. So I worked

24 for a Serb refugee who lived in my brother's house. He exchanged a house

25 with a Croat from Bihac, and he was a judge in Banja Luka. And I went to

Page 24170

1 repair his mother and father's house.

2 I had a brother who was mentally ill. He didn't know about the

3 war. He used to smoke four or five packs of cigarettes a day, and there

4 was a crisis with cigarettes, so thanks to this Rada, she obtained

5 cigarettes for me and gave me money. I didn't work for free. I also did

6 some other private jobs in order to survive.

7 And about those meetings, to tell you the truth, I don't really

8 know about them. I don't know whether Mr. Brdjanin was present or not. I

9 know that meetings were held at the municipality, but who held these

10 meetings I don't know. I personally know. I have a friend -- actually,

11 it's a friend of my son's, a Serb, who was in the military police. When

12 the meetings were being held in the municipal building and the Muslim

13 families were being discussed and when I was discussed and my family was

14 discussed, he literally told me - this is a great man - and he said that

15 no harm can come to Talic's family. At that point, my children still had

16 not left. He would come at midnight or at 1.00 in the night, he would

17 knock in the door. There was no telephone, there was no electricity. I

18 recognised his voice. We let him into the house. And he conveyed to us,

19 he said: "Meho, do not be afraid. No harm can come to your family." And

20 not only this person. I can tell you the names of 20 or 30 names of

21 prominent people, honest people, Serbs who used to come at 1.00 at night,

22 knock on the door. They would open their wallet and say "Meho, how much

23 money do you need? Buy yourself bread, flour, whatever food you need.

24 We will bring it to you. We are coming at this time of night so that

25 other Serbs will not attack us" and things like that. I had a brother in

Page 24171












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24172

1 Germany who had been working there for 40 years. Through a Serb who was

2 working there, he would send money to me and I didn't --

3 Q. Mr. Talic, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but matters would be much

4 clearer for everyone if you just answered the questions in some brevity.

5 When you're talking about all of this, when are you talking that this

6 happened? What time frame are you talking about now?

7 A. Well, let me tell you: Meetings were held on several occasions.

8 I heard about that. But like I said, like I told you before, I didn't

9 spend a lot of time at Celinac. I was either in Banja Luka or at Orasje

10 or on work obligation. So at that time, I wasn't really that much in

11 contact with the Serbs, with the --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. I'll try to intervene a little bit

13 because we are getting nowhere here.

14 MS. CHANA: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Talic, these events that you're talking --

16 telling us about --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- these meetings, first of all, let's start with

19 the meetings, are you talking about 1991, 1992, 1993? Can you help us a

20 little bit more.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The meetings were held in 1991 and

22 1992 and 1993 as well as in 1994. There were always meetings, accords,

23 but I don't know what kind of meetings they were and what happened. I

24 don't know that. But they were held, yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

Page 24173

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But only during one year.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And these Serbs coming to knock at your door at 1.00

3 or 2.00 in the morning offering you money, are we talking of 1991, 1992,

4 1993?

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't understand the answer.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't hear any answer at all.

7 Mr. Talic, in case my question did not get to you, you mentioned

8 Serbs coming to knock at your door at night offering you money, offering

9 you their help. Did this happen in 1991 --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever I needed.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. 1991 --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992 and 1993, those two years.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Thank you. Do you need to place

14 any other event, Ms. Chana, in a specific time frame?

15 MS. CHANA: No, Your Honour. I wanted to talk about this

16 particular meeting in about July 1992.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead. Go ahead.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he's already said he doesn't know

19 anything about this particular meeting.

20 MS. CHANA: No.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: So I don't know why we need to pursue it. He's

22 already said --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe if he's asked a further question, he will

24 suddenly remember what the meeting was. Let's see. If we don't get

25 there, Mr. Ackerman, I will stop Ms. Chana and we will move to some other

Page 24174

1 area.


3 Q. At this meeting there were representatives of the Muslim community

4 who would go as representatives and then give the information to all the

5 other Muslims. That was the purpose of this particular meeting. Did you

6 hear the outcome of some of the -- what was discussed at these meetings by

7 the Muslim representatives and the SDS?


9 MS. CHANA: With the SDS representatives with the Bosnian Serb

10 representatives with the Muslims.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: She has said a meeting in 1992, and she has now

12 said meetings. So what are we talking about? What question is being

13 asked? And I think first of all it must be established whether he knows

14 about the particular meeting that she wants to ask him about or not. If

15 he doesn't know about it, then there's no sense asking him about it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right, Mr. Ackerman. Perhaps we can tackle

17 it from another angle. Please ask him first whether it was customary,

18 whether it was usual for representatives of the Muslims to report back to

19 the Muslim community the outcome of any meetings, of meetings with the

20 Serb representatives. Let's start from there.

21 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. That was my exact point.

22 Q. Mr. Talic, was it customary for the Muslim representatives to give

23 the outcome of the meetings to the general Muslim population of Celinac

24 Municipality?

25 A. Listen, I remember one of those meetings now. I've remembered it.

Page 24175

1 There were two Muslims who attended it. And I found that out from the

2 Serb population, which two Muslims attended that meeting and who knew what

3 happened at the meeting. Then, those two Muslims did not convey to the

4 Muslim population the situation as it was. So those two same Muslims were

5 looking after their own affairs. I was following them. I kept my eye on

6 them. They were suspicious. So after that meeting, they didn't stay in

7 Celinac for long. They left Celinac. They left and went away.

8 Therefore, we, the other Muslims, did not know at all what was going on

9 that much.

10 Q. Yes, Mr. Talic, but the question was, was it customary - I will

11 come -- leaving aside this one particular meeting that you now remember

12 about - for the information to be disseminated between the Muslim

13 population. That was the purpose of the meeting, was it not?

14 A. Yes, but it was not conveyed to us, or we were not told about it.

15 I didn't hear anything about it. I am saying that I didn't hear anything

16 about it and can say nothing about that.

17 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Brdjanin say at one of these meetings that

18 Celinac was for the Serbs and the Muslims must leave?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, is there any factual basis for that

20 question or did she just make up that? Because I don't think there's any

21 basis for that question.

22 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, there is evidence. There's a witness,

23 BT -- sorry, it's a closed session, Your Honour.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry I don't normally interrupt

25 like this. But obviously Ms. Chana's -- this is taken from someone who

Page 24176

1 testified, and the page number I think Ms. Chana has got there so we can

2 give the page number of the transcript for Mr. Ackerman.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think what Mr. Ackerman needed to know --

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm satisfied.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's enough.

6 MS. CHANA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need to make sure that Mr. Talic

9 remembers the question.


11 Q. Mr. Talic, did you ever hear that at one of these meetings

12 Mr. Brdjanin had told the Muslim representatives that Celinac was for the

13 Serbs and all the Muslims must leave?

14 A. I'm claiming 100 per cent that I did not hear that from the

15 Muslims or from the Serbs. And even though I'm 100 per cent convinced,

16 according to my understanding, that Brdjanin would not say that, still I

17 don't know but I doubt that he said that. This could be something that

18 was just fabricated. I just wanted to say three or four words briefly.

19 Just as my Muslims in Celinac don't like me, I can tell you that

20 sincerely. 40 to 50 per cent, even though I'm equal towards everybody and

21 I have everybody in my family, I only judge people if they're good or bad.

22 The same applies to Mr. Brdjanin. He has friends and enemies, Serbs. So

23 I really doubt whether Mr. Brdjanin could have said that. There are

24 opponents of Brdjanin, Serbs, who will also not like the fact or hold it

25 against me that I was a witness and that I came to testify. But I am

Page 24177

1 saying 100 per cent that Brdjanin did not say that because there are

2 people who don't like Brdjanin, and I'm speaking to them openly, and they

3 tell me "we don't like Brdjanin." There are a lot of Serbs there at

4 leadership positions whom Serbs don't like. Let's take Dodik for example.

5 50 per cent of people of Banja Luka don't like him. So for Mr. Brdjanin

6 also, there are fabrications. I'm a citizen of Celinac. I lived a

7 hundred metres away from the municipal building, so I know how everybody

8 breathes. So I'm surprised that Mr. Brdjanin said that. And if -- I

9 don't know if I am right or not, but I did not hear that. I'm definitely

10 saying that.

11 Q. Mr. Talic, since you know how everybody breathes, perhaps you can

12 assist the Court with Mr. Brdjanin's relationship with the Sugic brothers.

13 Were they good friends?

14 A. I don't know anything about the relationship between the two --

15 the three of them, what they were like, whether they were on good terms or

16 not. I cannot say. I don't know. I really don't know.

17 Q. Would Mr. Brdjanin go to the cafe owned by the Sugic brothers?

18 A. I don't know that either.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I don't like this. Earlier on,

20 and this is one question that I was going to put to you myself, when you

21 mentioned that the Sugic brothers had a cafe, you also indicated that

22 Mr. Brdjanin knew this very well and that he had -- that he frequented

23 this cafe, apart from you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I apologise. I did not say that

25 Mr. Brdjanin went to that cafe. I said Mr. Brdjanin knows about the cafe

Page 24178

1 of the Sugic's in Popovac, the one owned by the sons of Savo Sugic. He

2 has sons - Savo - who was killed. And I know that Mr. Brdjanin knew about

3 that cafe where I used to work. A long time ago when they were just

4 building it, I worked on it and I finished it. I said that Mr. Brdjanin

5 knew about that cafe, but I did not say that he used to go there and he

6 used to have meetings there. No, that is not correct.

7 And one thing 100 per cent, that cafe is 8 kilometres away from my

8 house, so I don't know what was going on, what were the meetings there,

9 who met who there. Because in the centre of Celinac, I don't know what

10 they did at those meetings, what were the words, how the policy was

11 conducted, what was done. I only know that when I was on the agenda and

12 my family, I didn't have any problems, and I will not have any problems.

13 Mr. Brdjanin told me personally when I sat down with him, as soon

14 as I introduced myself and said who I was, he said "you Talics were never

15 extremists, and I don't think that you are now." Neither me nor my family

16 were never like that. As far as I'm concerned, everybody is just a person

17 to me. And people have to be responsible for who they are and for what

18 they are.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, page 38, line 10, what the witness

21 actually said --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, I have it front of me.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Is not what you suggested. He didn't ever say that

24 Brdjanin went to the cafe. He said he knows this cafe and Popovac

25 belonging to the Sugics where I also worked. And that's all he said about

Page 24179

1 it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And he said, "I know them well because Mr. Brdjanin

3 knows this cafe in Popovac belonging to the Sugics where I also worked."

4 So let's go ahead.


6 Q. Talic, you told the Court earlier on, and it's a direct quote from

7 you when you were asked about the Sugic brothers. You said "I know them

8 well because Brdjanin knows this cafe." That is what you've told the

9 Court earlier. Correct?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you mean to say when you said Mr. Brdjanin

11 knows this cafe?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that Brdjanin was

13 born in that area, from Popovac. He was born up there and that he was

14 educated in Celinac and Banja Luka. I don't know where he finished his

15 university education, but Mr. Brdjanin is from that area. And even if he

16 weren't, he should have known each family in Celinac, in the Celinac

17 Municipality, because he was in a leadership position there. And he was

18 born up there. He knew Mehovci, which is a Muslim village, Basici also is

19 a Muslim village, Stasi, Popovac, Lipovac --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Talic, please try to be concise in your answer

21 because you are running literally beyond what is being asked of you. My

22 question was a very simple one. You didn't say Mr. Brdjanin knows about

23 the existence of this cafe. You said Mr. Brdjanin knows this cafe, which

24 to me means he's familiar with it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody from Celinac knows about

Page 24180

1 that cafe, a Muslim -- Muslims and Serbs. There's a bus line running

2 there, a bus stops there. Popovac, Celinac, Sahinovic, and further on.

3 People go up there. People know about that cafe. It's a cafe.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go, Ms. Chana.

5 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. Did you know Mr. Brdjanin's various official -- what he was an

7 official of in the ARK region? Do you know all the posts that he held?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you know that he was the vice-president of the association of

10 municipalities of the Bosnian Krajina?

11 A. I heard something about it, but I don't really know all the

12 details.

13 Q. Do you know he was the president of the ARK Crisis Staff?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MS. CHANA: That will be all from this witness, Ms. Chana.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Chana. Is there re-examination,

17 Mr. Ackerman?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have two or three questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

21 Q. Mr. Talic, you talked about the young people leaving, young Muslim

22 people leaving Celinac in 1992. Just so we're all clear, when did the

23 bulk of the Muslim people who left Celinac, what year was it that they

24 actually left?

25 A. Well, let me tell you briefly. It all depended on the opening of

Page 24181

1 the points in Bosanska Gradiska and the opening up of the crossing over of

2 the crossing over of the Sava River because that was the way out of

3 Republika Srpska. Bosanska Gradiska and Travnik, up there in the

4 direction of Vlasic, those were the two routes. There were organisations

5 in Banja Luka that had their own buses, and you had to pay for the

6 transport. Sometimes the points in Gradiska and Travnik were closed and

7 when they could not receive refugees, and then it took some time so that

8 every year from 1992 up until 1995 people were leaving according to their

9 abilities and the actual possibilities. Sometimes -- well, so they left

10 gradually, not all at once. Sometimes two, three, five buses would leave

11 depending on how many passengers there were, how many passengers -- how

12 many people Croatia could receive and so on.

13 Q. All right. That's good enough. Thank you.

14 You mentioned at one point that before there was any -- there were

15 any departure of Muslims from Celinac that the population of the city

16 centre had a certain percentage of Muslims. And it's unclear whether you

17 said 80 per cent or 90 per cent. Because at one time it was reported as

18 80 per cent, and then it was corrected at 90 per cent. And I'd just like

19 to know which one it was that you actually said.

20 A. 90 per cent were Muslims in the centre of Celinac. And 10 per

21 cent in the very centre of Celinac, which was a small town, were Serbs, 10

22 or 15 per cent. And as taken as a municipality, Celinac numbered --

23 actually 90 per cent of the entire population in the municipality were

24 Serbs.

25 Q. I want to ask you now about the Sugic brothers who were accused of

Page 24182

1 committing these killings that you have been asked about. Were they --

2 the Sugic brothers, were they the sons of Savo Sugic or were they the sons

3 of Mica Sugic?

4 A. Listen, to tell you the truth, I know all these Sugics well. Now,

5 which ones took place in -- were involved in the murders, I don't know.

6 Talking specifically of Savo Sugic, he has two sons. One of them is a

7 driver in Kip in Celinac, and he wouldn't harm an ant. The other brother

8 who resides in Popovac and runs this cafe, I think that this young man is

9 also a very peaceful one.

10 Now, who took -- who took part in these murders, I do not know.

11 That's that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Talic, because I don't know what

13 kind of interpretation you are receiving over there, but to my knowledge

14 it should be perfect. It should be good, like it has always been. You

15 certainly haven't answered Mr. Talic's question -- Mr. Ackerman's

16 question.

17 Mr. Ackerman wants to know who these Sugic brothers are that you

18 were talking about. Were they the sons of Savo Sugic or of Mica Sugic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, there are three or

20 four families of Sugics, and I do not know who participated there, but I

21 do know that the Savo Sugic's junior son who's up there in Popovac, as far

22 as I know, he took no part in that. But specifically, I do not know who

23 took part in the murders. I only heard that there were some Sugics

24 involved in the murders. I cannot tell you which ones.


Page 24183

1 Q. All right, that's fine.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's better. Okay. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


4 Q. How many people were living in Popovac in 1992 roughly? Did you

5 hear my question?

6 A. I didn't.

7 Q. How many people were living in Popovac in 1992 roughly, if you

8 know?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. How many cafes are there in Popovac?

11 A. I know for this one cafe, Sugic's.

12 Q. Do you know if there are any others?

13 A. I don't.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Talic. That's all I have.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And before I ask Judge Janu and Judge Taya if they

16 have any questions, just to have it clear in my mind, these Sugics that

17 own this cafe in Popovac, they are the sons of Savo, aren't they?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Janu from the Czech Republic will be asking

20 you one question. Thank you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Talic, do you know why -- the reason why

23 Mr. Brdjanin made enemies among the Serbs? Do you know the reason?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 JUDGE JANU: Thank you.

Page 24184

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Janu.

2 Judge Taya, do you have any questions?


4 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Taya from Japan also has some questions for

5 you, Mr. Talic.

6 JUDGE TAYA: You said that your son-in-law is a Serb. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes. I have all ethnicities in my family, all sorts of

9 ethnicities.

10 JUDGE TAYA: Apart from him, do you have any Serb ethnicity person

11 in your close relatives?

12 A. I have. My brother's son who married a Serb, we have very

13 friendly terms with them. They have a family of their own now. And then

14 from -- on my cousin's side, I have a cousin married to a Serb also on

15 good terms. My daughter is married to a German. I have a son-in-law

16 who's Albanian. I only don't have a gypsy in my family. And I'm on good

17 terms with everyone. Everyone is treating me well, and I treat them well

18 as well.

19 JUDGE TAYA: You are now living in Celinac. Is that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 JUDGE TAYA: I think you are living together with some persons.

22 Together with whom are you living?

23 A. I have a wife and a son who returned from Germany, who is single,

24 and when they were returning the refugees, he was among the first ones to

25 be returned. I work occasionally. I still have to qualify for pension.

Page 24185

1 I do not qualify yet. Now, we have no trouble. We continue living. If

2 there's work to be done, both with Muslims or with Serbs, regardless of

3 who invites us to work, and that's it.

4 JUDGE TAYA: Where have you been living after 1995 when you left

5 Celinac?

6 A. I stayed in Croatia for three years, and then I returned in

7 February 1998 when my son-in-law informed me that I could return. I found

8 an apartment in Croatia, and I paid the rent for it because I didn't want

9 to go to those collection centres. As soon as I crossed the Sava River

10 into Croatia, I went to Oriovac near Slavonski Brod. Found an apartment,

11 paid for it myself, worked a bit, and I lived there. I didn't go back to

12 Sana canton where Muslims would go, where Serbs had abandoned their houses

13 who had left Sanski Most, Bihac. That's where Muslims would go to live.

14 I didn't want to go there. I lived on my own. And then as I came in

15 touch with my son-in-law and he told me I could return, I did, and I have

16 been living in my house to this very day, that much.

17 JUDGE TAYA: How do you make a living nowadays?

18 A. Well, I live from today to tomorrow. I work very little. I am

19 now of -- a bit old, so I have -- my wife works, my son, and then I have

20 some land to work on, and I also work for whoever calls me to work. And

21 that's how I survive.

22 JUDGE TAYA: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Taya. I have just one question

24 for you, Mr. Talic. And I'm just wondering how you came to know with such

25 detail what was happening in Kotor Varos before you decided to ask for

Page 24186

1 Mr. Brdjanin's help.

2 A. I came to know about it when I made a call because at the time the

3 phone lines were functioning. And when I was trying to reach Kotor Varos,

4 I was unable to reach them there. I had neighbours who also had relatives

5 up there, perhaps whose children married with someone from there and went

6 over there to celebrate Bajram because there it was a bit more peaceful

7 than here. And the town was blocked, the phone lines were cut off. I

8 went to the municipality building, and there they told me that indeed the

9 town was blocked.

10 My daughter happened to be there, and my wife was very angry with

11 me because she told me "you sent her over there. Now you bring her back."

12 She was crying. She was very distressed. So I went wherever I could, and

13 I'm thankful to the Lord, and I wish to thank Mr. Brdjanin who understood

14 my situation, provided me with a car, provided me with a driver and with a

15 special permission, permit, which enabled me to bring my daughter over to

16 Celinac. I crossed a Serbian checkpoint in Kotor Varos, and they allowed

17 me to go through --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Talic, because you are repeating

19 yourself. What I wanted to know is this: The town was blockaded. The

20 telephone lines were cut, interrupted. And still, you had so much

21 information. Earlier on, you even told us who was firing, who was

22 shooting, and where the people were hiding or where they had gathered

23 together. I mean, where did you get this information from? You seem to

24 have been very well informed in spite of the fact that the telephone lines

25 were not available, were cut at the time.

Page 24187

1 A. First, I was told by the Serbs in the municipality building and in

2 the police. I got the information, and then Mr. Brdjanin gave me the car,

3 and I went up there. I came across a checkpoint. There was a lieutenant

4 colonel, or a colonel, a Serb, who told me that Serbs and Muslims were

5 fighting, but then he saw that it was a Serb driving the car and that I

6 was given the permission by a Serb. And he said: "Well, we are fighting

7 Muslims and here it is we have a Muslim in the car." And then they

8 understood that I was on friendly terms with Mr. Brdjanin. I was allowed

9 to go on foot. I had to leave the car on the checkpoint. There was a

10 fire-fighting car there. At the same time, there was an announcement

11 saying that Croats and Muslims had to surrender their weapons and that

12 nobody would harm them, that their security would be guaranteed. I

13 entered Kotor Varos and went to my relatives' house where my daughter was.

14 I found the door locked, and I went into a side street where I met up with

15 a Muslim. He asked me "what do you need, sir, here?" And I said my

16 daughter arrived here some two days ago. And he told me "they're all down

17 there in the woods hiding." I went there, found my daughter, brought her

18 back to the car, and that's how I was aware of what was going on in Kotor

19 Varos.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

21 That brings your testimony to an end, Mr. Talic. I thank you for

22 having gone over to the offices from where you have given testimony, and I

23 thank you on behalf of the Tribunal and of everyone present here. Good

24 morning to you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I put a question to you?

Page 24188

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to greet you all and would

3 like to greet Mr. Brdjanin. He knows me well. I have the very best

4 wishes for him and wish him to return as soon as possible. I wish to say

5 that Mr. Brdjanin is not -- doesn't have the responsibility that has been

6 attributed to him. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Talic.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good-bye.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman will do his best to try and

11 please Mr. Talic, Mr. Brdjanin, make Mr. Talic happy.

12 Is there any other further business that you would like to --

13 nothing? I see you both standing.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I got up first, Judge.

15 MS. KORNER: As far as the Prosecution is concerned, no,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just so I don't forget later, I'd be

20 very remiss if I didn't express the gratitude of our team, the

21 Brdjanin Defence, for the stellar work of the interpreters throughout this

22 entire trial and the things they did above and beyond the call of duty at

23 times for us was -- we're very appreciative of. And it's our observation

24 that even though we occasionally brought attention to mistranslations, the

25 bulk of the work they did was absolutely flawless, and we certainly

Page 24189

1 appreciate that. It has made this trial a better trial in many ways.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. And I do join you, and

3 in fact the reason why I said what I said yesterday was precisely because

4 I thought that today's sittings would be in closed session, so I took the

5 opportunity to make that intervention myself. I think everyone -- we

6 ought to be grateful and thankful to everyone involved, the interpreters,

7 the technicians. We have had problems throughout, and were it not for

8 them, we wouldn't have arrived where we are today.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: The technicians today did well with this videolink.

10 And I understood that they don't always go this smoothly but this one was

11 extremely well done.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MS. KORNER: I think the only thing left is the timing of the

14 various things. I know yesterday Mr. Ackerman's going to -- first we are

15 going to get part of the -- part of Mr. Shoup's report today, and

16 Mr. Ackerman presumably will let us know if Mr. Shoup is going to testify

17 earlier.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's one thing.

19 MS. KORNER: Secondly, of course, Your Honours, as there's going

20 to be this -- at present this gap unless the matter we discussed earlier

21 today is brought in next week until February the 9th, Your Honours

22 presumably will let us know first whether you intend in this gap to call

23 any witnesses yourselves.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The decision will be taken either Monday or Tuesday.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful. And secondly, obviously at what stage,

Page 24190

1 if any, the site visit is to be organised.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. And that is being verified this

3 morning by Mr. Roberts. We've cleared a lot of ground with the security,

4 both in ex-Yugoslavia and here. Today the financial matters being

5 attended to, and then we need to liaise with you to establish the date,

6 and we will communicate the date to whoever needs to know the details.

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing is this, Ms. Korner, and I intended

9 to raise it again with you: You mentioned earlier on that you may have

10 some evidence in rebuttal.

11 MS. KORNER: I can -- I think we can put it this way: That we

12 should be in a position at the latest the week after next, and maybe the

13 end of next week to tell Your Honour whether we wish to -- because it's

14 obviously -- we have to apply, and equally Mr. Ackerman has to be given

15 notice of any evidence that we would wish to call in rebuttal.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you. But if as I mentioned to you

17 earlier some few days ago, if it is at all possible to cooperate together

18 with Mr. Ackerman and bring forward any evidence in rebuttal, or at least

19 some of the evidence in rebuttal even before Mr. Shoup comes to give

20 evidence, I think that would help us tremendously, if it is possible. I

21 don't want to force it on you because obviously I know that there are

22 limitations and problems that you have to encounter. If it is possible,

23 please.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we certainly have that well in mind, and

25 if it's at all possible then we will do it. I think the point that both

Page 24191

1 Mr. Ackerman and I would make about this is that it doesn't really make

2 much -- because the time that we would save, we will be doing the same

3 thing, which is dealing with our closing briefs.


5 MS. KORNER: So from that point of view, I think it's -- but we

6 will certainly let Your Honours know.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: As I said yesterday, when you were not here, it was

8 Mr. Nicholls and Ms. Sutherland who were here, well we willing utilising

9 this interval to go through several aspects of the trial and come back to

10 you on various issues that we would like you to concentrate upon and

11 address in your brief in due course.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I heard that -- I was actually keeping

13 an eye on the proceedings, as it were. But Your Honour, we would

14 certainly welcome that and urge Your Honours to do that. As Your Honours

15 probably know, Judge Schomburg did that in the Stakic trial, and it was of

16 great assistance.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's very important.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We do it in our jurisdiction, and it works. Also,

20 the understanding is this: That when I say "Mr. Ackerman, please try to

21 concentrate on this more than the other" it doesn't mean to say that we

22 are already in our mind decided on anything. I want to make this clear.

23 It's done on a -- in a spirit of cooperation between the Trial Chamber and

24 the parties to streamline the final submissions as much as possible to

25 what is considered at the time by the Chambers as more important or that

Page 24192

1 deserves more attention anyway. And also, there may be areas that were

2 perhaps not sufficiently addressed for one or more reasons during or in

3 the course of the Rule 98 bis stage which will now need to be extended for

4 sure, so we will come to those. We were identifying as we went along in

5 our deliberations at the time, and practically that was one time when we

6 decided that we will come back to you on several issues.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I did on the issue of Rule 98, I made

8 the inquiries with the senior legal officer to the Appeals Chamber as to

9 whether we were likely to get a decision. My understanding is, although

10 it was never actually specifically stated, that we are likely to get a

11 decision from the Appeals Chamber.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the indication that I have, too.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And I'm working in that direction as much as I can

15 because it's not within -- but I will not fail to emphasise the importance

16 of having that point decided before we come to our own decision.

17 So yes, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it was clear from the question

19 that you asked of the witness, but my client has asked me to make sure to

20 clarify that it was the Sugic brothers involved in the killing based upon

21 records already in this case were the sons of Mica and not the sons of the

22 cafe owner. I think that was clear, wasn't it?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. That's why I put it as the last question

24 because earlier on he had mentioned sons of Savo and one or more of them

25 being killed themselves, so I wanted to make that clear.

Page 24193

1 Yes, that brings us to the end for the time being. We will

2 reconvene for sure to hear the testimony of the expert which hopefully

3 would be brought forward, advanced, if possible. Between now and then,

4 there may be an occasion for us to reconvene if necessary. And we will

5 let you know well in advance if that is the case. Okay. I thank you all.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 11.58 a.m sine die.