Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 836

1 Thursday, 2nd September, 1999

2 [Rule 77 Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The appellant entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 10.18 a.m.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: This sitting is now

7 resumed. Mr. Registrar?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-94-1-A-R77, the

9 Prosecutor versus Dusko Tadic in a matter regarding

10 allegations with regard to the prior counsel.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. This morning we

12 shall be taking evidence by videolink.

13 Am I still in communication with everyone?

14 I was saying that this morning we shall be

15 taking evidence by videolink, coming from Banja Luka.

16 May I take it that the appearances are as before?

17 Then, Mr. Registrar, the next witness.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The next witness is

19 Milos Preradovic. He's now presently in Banja Luka,

20 and we should have a satellite link but apparently from

21 the noise I can hear on the line there are still some

22 problems going on.

23 [Technical difficulty]


25 communication, Mr. Preradovic?

Page 837

1 THE WITNESS: -- hear you very well.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, will the

3 representative of the Tribunal administer to you the

4 solemn declaration?

5 THE WITNESS: All right. I solemnly declare

6 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

7 nothing but the truth.

8 THE WITNESS: Milos Preradovic

9 [Witness testimony via videolink]

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, your name is Milos

11 Preradovic?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you tell us your

14 date of birth?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not

16 hear the answer, I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will you tell us your

18 date of birth?

19 A. The 10th of October, 1948.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Preradovic, where

21 were you born?

22 A. In Prujanor or, rather, near Prujanor.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where do you live now?

24 Mr. Preradovic, where do you live now?

25 A. Now I live in Prijedor.

Page 838

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What work do you do?

2 A. Retired.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And before your

4 retirement, what work did you do?

5 A. Before I retired I worked in the civilian

6 police force.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Now, did you

8 give a statement to the Tribunal on 15th February,

9 1999?

10 A. The 15th of February? I do not recall.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will a representative of

12 the Tribunal show you a statement dated 15 February,

13 1999.

14 THE REGISTRAR: For the transcript, this

15 statement of the 15th of February, 1999 will be marked

16 Exhibit 19. As to the other statement which was lodged

17 with the Registry, this will be Exhibit 18.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. I'm not

19 clear whether the witness recalls having given the

20 statement dated 15 February, 1999.

21 You have it now before you, Mr. Preradovic?

22 A. I do. I do. Let me just read it. I've read

23 the statement, but I didn't give it to you; I gave it

24 to Dusko's brother, (redacted), in Prijedor, in the

25 Balkan Hotel.

Page 839

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Your correction is

2 accepted. At the top I see the words "At the request

3 of The Hague Tribunal", but you explained that you gave

4 it to a certain person.

5 Now, that is --

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That is the statement

8 which you gave?

9 A. I did not understand you well.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That is the statement

11 which you gave?

12 A. Yes, that is the statement that I gave.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then unless there are

14 any objections, the statement is admitted. No

15 objections.

16 Mr. Registrar, you'll mark it 19; is that

17 it?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Absolutely, Your

19 Honour. This will be Exhibit 19.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: In that statement --

21 well, let me ask you this: Was this statement correct

22 and true when you gave it?

23 A. The one that I gave in Prijedor, are you

24 referring to that?

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The statement which you

Page 840

1 just saw.

2 A. I got a copy of the statement from (redacted)

3 (redacted). That statement --

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. I'm referring to

5 the statement which is now on the ELMO and which you

6 saw and which you say you gave. Were the contents of

7 the statement true and correct when you gave that

8 statement?

9 A. Yes. Yes. That is correct, yes.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not

11 hear the rest of the answer.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Interpreter, can you

13 hear me now?

14 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear the proceedings

15 from the courtroom, but we didn't hear --

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You did not hear the

17 witness?

18 THE INTERPRETER: -- we did not hear the end

19 of the witness's statement.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness, did I hear you

21 to say that the contents of that statement were true

22 and correct when you gave the statement?

23 A. The statement I gave to (redacted), yes.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, in that statement

25 you refer to another statement which is attached --

Page 841

1 A. Before that, I signed a statement at the SUP

2 in Prijedor, at the Commander's office, Commander Bozo

3 Kos.

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let me ask the

5 representative of the Tribunal to show you Exhibit 18.

6 A. I saw it. I saw it.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did you make that

8 statement?

9 A. Well, let me tell you, the statement that

10 (redacted) gave me seemed different to me

11 from this statement, and I did not receive a copy from

12 (redacted) either.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Part of the answer could

14 not be heard by the interpreters. The last bit was

15 "... statement from the SUP."

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Preradovic, the

17 interpreter did not hear the entirety of your answer.

18 Would you kindly repeat the whole answer for her?

19 A. The first statement that I gave at the SUP

20 was made in several copies.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: My question to you is

22 this: Will you kindly look again at Exhibit 18? Would

23 the representative of the Tribunal put it before you,

24 please?

25 A. Well, I'm looking at it right now.

Page 842

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is that your statement?

2 Did you make that statement?

3 A. I believe that this is the accurate

4 statement, the one I gave at the SUP, but I cannot say

5 100 per cent -- I cannot be 100 per cent sure because I

6 did not get a copy from the SUP.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you look at the

8 very top of that statement and, in particular, at the

9 opening words "On the request of Mr. Milan Vujin ..."

10 Do you see those words?

11 A. I do.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did your statement to

13 the SUP include those words?

14 A. Well, the contents of the statement did

15 include those words, but I'm so sorry that I didn't

16 take a copy of my own in the SUP.


18 Mr. Preradovic. I would turn the matter over to

19 counsel, who would ask you a few questions. First,

20 some questions will be put to you by Mr. Abell, who is

21 counsel for Mr. Tadic.

22 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, before I actually

23 ask any questions of this witness, in view of what he's

24 just said, I'm going to ask if I can be given the

25 opportunity to obtain another statement that this

Page 843

1 witness gave, which (redacted) has just told me

2 about. I understand it is with the Court, and I hope

3 that we will be able to lay our hands on it very

4 quickly, but it may be important, given what this

5 witness has just said. I'm sorry for the hiatus.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will this take some

7 time, Mr. Abell?

8 MR. ABELL: I hope it won't --

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I have two statements to

10 which reference has been made. I don't know if my

11 colleagues have a third. I doubt it. They also are in

12 my position.

13 MR. ABELL: It is a statement that Your

14 Honours may have seen before, I'm told, in connection

15 with an additional evidence application. That's the

16 one that I haven't got but am anxious to see.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: It is not before us

18 today, I think.

19 The legal officer explains to me that you're

20 probably referring to a document filed, as you said, in

21 a previous matter. She doesn't have it here, we don't

22 have it here, but if you were to be so good as to give

23 her details of it, she would try to retrieve it as soon

24 as possible.

25 Meanwhile, what do you propose, Mr. Abell?

Page 844

1 We have a videolink arrangement on --

2 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, I very much

3 appreciate it. It may be that -- I just thought that

4 it may be that my friends can perhaps --

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Maybe Prosecuting

6 counsel can come to your assistance.

7 MR. KEEGAN: We can, Your Honour. We have

8 the statement.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would that help you?

10 MR. ABELL: It would.


12 MR. ABELL: May I cast my eyes over it

13 first?

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Okay. Would you then be

15 in a position to proceed on receipt of that document

16 from Prosecution counsel?

17 MR. ABELL: May I just have five minutes to

18 read it, please?

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I'm unaccustomed to the

20 workings of the videolink arrangement. I don't know

21 what the Registrar will advise.

22 THE REGISTRAR: There's no problem with

23 regard to the satellite link. We can remain in the

24 courtroom, Your Honours.


Page 845

1 Mr. Preradovic, Mr. Abell, counsel for

2 Mr. Tadic, has requested a few minutes -- I was saying

3 to Mr. Preradovic that Mr. Abell, counsel for

4 Mr. Tadic, has requested a few minutes to look at a

5 certain document, so do bear with us.

6 A. Yes. No problem.

7 MR. ABELL: I'm very grateful for Your

8 Honours' indulgence.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell is ready.

10 MR. ABELL: Thank you.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You have the floor,

12 Mr. Abell.

13 MR. ABELL: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Questioned by Mr. Abell:

15 Q. Mr. Preradovic, have you seen (redacted)

16 (redacted) before?

17 A. (redacted)

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes. Is he the one who came to my apartment

20 in Prijedor?

21 Q. Yes. Did he come and see you and take a

22 statement from you on the 27th of December of 1998 in

23 Prijedor?

24 A. Yes, he came and he wanted to take a

25 statement, but please don't ask me for dates. I'm very

Page 846

1 bad at dates.

2 Q. I'm going to show you on the ELMO the

3 statement, and you can see the date, I hope, and your

4 signature.

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 20.


8 Q. On the first page, can you see that it's

9 headed "Statement of Milos Preradovic"?

10 A. Yes. Yes, that's my statement.

11 Q. Does it start by saying: "I, Milos

12 Preradovic, born on the 10th of October, 1948, in

13 Prujanor, want to give a statement in the case of Dusko

14 Tadic"?

15 A. Yes, that's the statement. That's it, and

16 that's the beginning and the content of the statement.

17 Q. It was a detailed statement, wasn't it, went

18 into quite a lot of detail?

19 A. Probably. Well, you have it right in front

20 of you.

21 Q. Yes. Let's just look at the last page of the

22 statement, just to see your signature and the date.

23 A. Could you raise it a bit more, please? To

24 the left, please. To the left.

25 Yes. Yes. That's my signature. I signed

Page 847

1 it.

2 Q. You made that statement voluntarily, of your

3 own free will?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And you signed the bottom of each page of the

6 statement, didn't you, as well as the end?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Right.

8 Q. The statement was read to you before you

9 signed it to make sure that you agreed with the

10 contents of it?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. And the statement that you gave to

13 (redacted) in December of '98 was true and accurate

14 when you made it, wasn't it?

15 A. Although I was in very poor shape and I was

16 receiving an infusion precisely when the lawyer came, I

17 think it's all right, that the statement was accurate,

18 and I signed it.

19 Q. You would not have signed it, I suggest, if

20 you had not been happy that it was accurate and true.

21 A. I probably wouldn't have been happy.

22 Q. If it had been wrong, you wouldn't have

23 signed it?

24 A. Wouldn't have. I wouldn't have.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know somebody called

Page 848

1 Bogoljub Kos?

2 A. Repeat this, please.

3 Q. Do you know somebody named Bogoljub Kos?

4 A. I do. I do.

5 Q. Does he come from Prijedor as well?

6 A. He's the Commander of the police station in

7 Prijedor.

8 Q. Did you go -- sorry. Did he come to you and

9 ask you to go to the police station at Prijedor to look

10 at a questionnaire?

11 A. Yes. He called me on the phone and asked me

12 to come to the SUP. He wanted me to have a look at

13 something. He said that the lawyer Vujin had left a

14 questionnaire, a statement, whatever. I cannot

15 remember now because I did not receive a single copy.

16 Q. It was, I suggest, a questionnaire.

17 A. A questionnaire or statement. I don't

18 remember because of the four or five copies; I did not

19 receive a single copy myself.

20 Q. Let me see if I can refresh your memory. On

21 the questionnaire, against your name, there was only

22 one question, which was: "Did you or did you not see

23 Mr. Dusko Tadic in Kozarac during the attack on

24 Kozarac?"

25 A. Well, I don't remember the statement or

Page 849

1 questionnaire. I don't remember what it was called.

2 Yes, it did say "Yes" or "No", did I or I did not see

3 Dusko Tadic in Kozarac.

4 Yes, that is what it said in the contents,

5 and it coincides with the statements that I received

6 later on from this lawyer, Vujin. Perhaps there are

7 some --

8 Q. Let me please press on with my question. In

9 answer to that single question on the questionnaire:

10 "Did you or did you not see Dusko Tadic in Kozarac

11 during the attack on it?", you said, "No," and you

12 signed that questionnaire.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Mr. Kos asked you no further questions,

15 no further details than that?

16 A. The statement was in four or five copies. I

17 don't remember exactly. The questionnaire or

18 statement, whatever it was; I don't know exactly.

19 Q. I think you've told us you have never had a

20 copy of that questionnaire.

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Mr. Vujin (sic), when did you first -- first

23 of all, when, if you can help me, did you go and see

24 Mr. Kos at the Prijedor police station and answer that

25 question "No"?

Page 850

1 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

2 Q. Could you give us a date for when you went to

3 see Mr. Kos at Prijedor police station to answer "No"

4 in the questionnaire?

5 A. I don't remember the date.

6 Q. I'm going to suggest to you -- I can't put a

7 precise date to you -- that it might have been before

8 February of 1998.

9 A. I don't remember exactly the exact date. My

10 health situation was such that I forgot it. It was a

11 mistake of me not to take a copy.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Preradovic, did you see -- well, you

13 tell us. When was the first time you ever met

14 Mr. Milan Vujin?

15 A. The first time I met him -- I met him the

16 first time when he brought me this statement. I think

17 it was number 18. It was after the statement that I

18 had signed to (redacted) -- for (redacted),

19 (redacted).

20 Q. So you first met Mr. Vujin after the

21 statement that is our Exhibit 19.

22 MR. ABELL: Could he please be shown that?

23 He has one with him.

24 A. This is the statement that I gave Vujin when

25 I saw him.

Page 851

1 Q. Which is? Let me see if I can help you, Mr.

2 Preradovic. You first saw Mr. Vujin -- you're showing

3 us, I think, the statement you made on the 15th of

4 February of 1999. That's the statement you gave to

5 (redacted), isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you first met Mr. Vujin after you gave

8 (redacted) that statement on the 15th of February,

9 1999?

10 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes.

11 Q. What did Mr. Vujin show you when he met you?

12 A. He showed me this statement, the one that I'm

13 showing you now, the one you're looking at now.

14 Q. He showed you (redacted) statement, did

15 he, the statement, that is, that you gave to (redacted)

16 (redacted)?

17 A. We lost the first part of that sentence.

18 Q. Let me start --

19 A. The statement that Vujin, the lawyer, showed

20 me later on and the one I gave in the SUP are

21 practically the same in content. It only differs in

22 the "Yes" or "No". I can't remember that. Perhaps I

23 didn't get the first statement.

24 Q. The statement that Mr. Vujin showed you when

25 he saw you after the 15th of February of 1999, was the

Page 852

1 statement he showed you the statement that you had

2 given to (redacted) on the 15th of February, 1999?

3 A. I think that those statements are similar,

4 with the exception of the fact that I thought when

5 (redacted) showed me, whether it was because of the

6 photocopy or anything else, they weren't exactly the

7 same. So --

8 Q. Did Mr. Vujin show you what is our Exhibit 18

9 when he came to see you? That is the statement --

10 MR. ABELL: Could you have it up, please, on

11 the screen?

12 Q. Is that the statement that Mr. Vujin showed

13 you?

14 A. Yes, it is. Can you put it up a bit? Yes,

15 that's that statement that Vujin showed me.

16 Q. Could you tell us where this meeting was with

17 Mr. Vujin?

18 A. With Mr. Vujin and another man who he came

19 with from Prijedor. It was in front of my building;

20 that is to say, the entrance next door to my building,

21 in a cafe.

22 Q. Was the other man with him Mr. Saponja?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. The father of Dragomir Saponja?

25 A. Could you repeat that, please?

Page 853

1 Q. The father of Dragomir Saponja?

2 A. I don't know what his son's name is. All I

3 know is that he does have a son. I think he was

4 Dragomir, but he played handball. I don't know his

5 name exactly. He was a youngster.

6 Q. The man with Mr. Vujin was an older man,

7 Mr. Saponja, the father of another Saponja.

8 A. Yes. There was Slavko Saponja. I know him

9 very well, but I don't know his son so well.

10 Q. Can you give us a date for that meeting, when

11 Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja came to see you in Prijedor?

12 A. I can't remember. I can't remember.

13 Q. Let me see if I can help you. Would it have

14 been about a month after you gave the statement to

15 (redacted); in other words, in mid-March of 1999?

16 A. It was several days after I gave the

17 statement to (redacted).

18 Q. I suggest a month later, just about a month

19 later. Does that sound about right, Mr. Preradovic?

20 A. I can't quite remember, but it was a few days

21 before I went. I think it was when I came to these

22 same premises with (redacted).

23 Q. This may help you: Not long before the

24 bombing began in 1999?

25 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost him, I'm

Page 854

1 afraid.


3 Q. Not long --

4 A. I was to come with (redacted) here to see

5 (redacted). Well, a little before the bombing, yes.

6 Sometime before the bombing.

7 Q. Now, were you going with (redacted) to pick up a

8 witness summons to come to this court?

9 A. I was informed -- I think it was during those

10 couple of days, because that's when the lawyer Vujin

11 came. Maybe it was on that same day, that very day.

12 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Vujin, what was he

13 saying to you when he came to visit you with

14 Mr. Saponja?

15 A. He gave me this statement and asked me if it

16 corresponded to the statement that I made to Bozo Kos.

17 I think it is similar to the other statement, but the

18 contents weren't that familiar to me because I haven't

19 got the first statement.

20 Q. Is this right: That the statement that

21 you've seen in front of you today that says "On the

22 request of Milan Vujin ...", Exhibit 18, is not the

23 same piece of paper that you signed when you went into

24 Prijedor police station and spoke with Mr. Kos?

25 A. The contents of the statement are the same,

Page 855

1 almost the same, more or less the same. I'm not quite

2 so sure, because I wasn't given a copy from the SUP in

3 Prijedor, but the contents are more or less the same.

4 Q. My question was that the statement that you

5 have in front of you, it's not the same piece of paper

6 as the document you signed at Prijedor police station.

7 Whether it's similar or not doesn't matter. It's not

8 the same actual statement, is it?

9 A. I think this statement has the same contents,

10 everything is the same. I can't exactly remember, but

11 I think that with Bozo there was something that said

12 "Yes" or "No," and this same time hasn't got that

13 "Yes" or "No." That's the only difference.

14 Q. If there's a difference between this

15 statement and what you gave to Mr. Kos, it must be a

16 different statement, it must be a different piece of

17 paper?

18 A. The paper's the same. It's the same format,

19 everything is the same, and the contents of the

20 statement, generally, it boils down to the fact of

21 whether I saw Dusko Tadic. But I wrote to Vujin that

22 the contents of the statement -- I noticed when Vujin

23 left that in the statement, there isn't the "Yes" or

24 "No" which did exist, I think, in the first

25 statement.

Page 856

1 Q. So there is a difference between what you

2 have been shown today, the piece of paper you've been

3 shown today, and what you signed with Mr. Kos at

4 Prijedor police station?

5 A. Well, more or less, the statement is the

6 same. The only thing is that "Yes" or "No," that

7 worries me a little, just that.

8 Q. That worries you because you remember saying

9 that to Mr. Kos and it's not in the statement that

10 you've had put in front of you today.

11 A. Well, nonetheless, I made a mistake not to

12 take a copy from Bozo Kos, and that is why now I am

13 answering in this way.

14 Q. You rang up, didn't you, (redacted)

15 (redacted) -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me change

16 that. You rang up, didn't you, (redacted) on the

17 same day or the day after Mr. Vujin had come to visit

18 you, in March of this year, to tell him about that

19 visit?

20 A. Could you repeat that, please?

21 Q. Yes. You spoke with (redacted), didn't you,

22 in March of this year, on the same day that Mr. Vujin

23 and Mr. Saponja came to visit you?

24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we couldn't hear

25 the answer.

Page 857


2 Q. Let me ask the question again. You spoke to

3 (redacted), didn't you, on the same day in March

4 of this year when Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja came to

5 visit you in Prijedor?

6 A. I think that that's how it was, yes.

7 Q. You told (redacted) that Mr. Vujin had

8 shown you that statement, Exhibit 18, and was trying to

9 convince you that it didn't really matter that it

10 wasn't the same piece of paper because it was similar

11 to what you had written to Mr. Kos.

12 A. I'm sorry. Could you say that again?

13 Q. You told (redacted) about Mr. Vujin's

14 visit to you at Prijedor with Mr. Saponja, didn't you?

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: There's a problem,

16 Mr. Registrar?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Obviously, the witness

18 couldn't hear or did not hear the question.

19 MR. ABELL: Let me put it again.

20 Q. You told (redacted) about Mr. Vujin and

21 Mr. Saponja's visit to you in Prijedor, didn't you?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. You told (redacted) on the same day that

24 Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja came to visit you.

25 A. Yes, I did. I did tell him, because I came

Page 858

1 to Banja Luka with him.

2 Q. You told (redacted) that Mr. Vujin had tried

3 to convince you or persuade you that the statement that

4 you now have in front of you, Exhibit 18, was similar

5 to what you had signed at Prijedor police station with

6 Mr. Kos.

7 A. I told (redacted) that Vujin and Saponja

8 came to see me and that they gave me a statement ...

9 and he said Kos and that I signed for Vujin that that

10 could have been that statement. However, when they

11 left and when I talked to (redacted), in this statement, I

12 did not find a portion where it said "Yes" or "No,"

13 whereas the contents of the statement were more or less

14 the same that I gave to Bozo Kos.

15 Q. So when you looked at the statement with

16 (redacted), you realised there was a difference,

17 although they may have been broadly similar, that there

18 was a difference.

19 A. The statements, both (redacted) statement and

20 the one that I gave to Vujin and the one with Bozo Kos,

21 as I say, the contents are almost the same; however,

22 when I add all this up together, I feel -- I seem to

23 feel that in Bozo Kos's statement, it said, "Did you

24 see --"

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

Page 859

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Preradovic, the

2 interpreter did not have the entirety of your last

3 answer. Could you repeat it for her, please?

4 A. All three statements -- the last statement I

5 gave to Vujin, they are almost the same in content,

6 except for the fact that (redacted) statement that I

7 signed there, it wasn't very legible, and that is why I

8 said that it didn't correspond exactly. Whether it was

9 the photocopy's fault or anything else, I don't know,

10 but they're all more or less of the same content.


12 Q. We got cut off from you, Mr. Preradovic, in

13 the middle of an answer you were giving, and I'm going

14 to read it back to you because I want you to complete

15 the sentence, if you can. Let me do my best to read it

16 to you.

17 "The statements, both (redacted) statement and

18 the one that I gave to Vujin and the one with Bozo Kos,

19 as I say, the contents are almost the same; however,

20 when I add all this up together, I feel -- I seem to

21 feel that in Bozo Kos's statement, I said, 'Did you

22 see --'"

23 Please finish that sentence off.

24 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

25 Q. What was the difference you could remember?

Page 860

1 A. I think that in the statement which is with

2 Bozo Kos, there was a word "Yes" or "No," whether I had

3 seen Tadic or not, and I answered --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.


6 Q. Can you hear me again?

7 A. Yes, I can hear you.

8 Q. Again, unfortunately, there was an

9 interruption. Let me read your answer back. I asked

10 you what was the difference that you could remember

11 between what you said between Mr. Kos and Exhibit 18,

12 and you said: "I think that in the statement which is

13 with Bozo Kos, there was a word 'Yes' or 'No,' whether

14 I had seen Tadic or not, and I answered --"

15 Go on. Complete it. What did you answer to

16 Mr. Kos?

17 A. Hello? Hello? I think that it said "Yes" or

18 "No," and all the rest coincides with the last

19 statement given to me by Vujin.

20 Q. You spoke on the 16th of March on the

21 telephone, didn't you, with (redacted),

22 the 16th of March of this year?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You told her as well about the fact that

25 Mr. --

Page 861

1 A. I don't remember --

2 Q. Just listen to the question. When you spoke

3 with her on the phone, you told her as well, didn't

4 you, that Mr. Vujin and Mr. Saponja had come to visit

5 you in Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you told her that they had tried to

8 convince you that the statement, our Exhibit 18, was

9 similar to what you had written to Mr. Kos, what you

10 had answered to Mr. Kos at Prijedor.

11 A. I told the lady that the contents of the

12 statement given to me by the lawyer Vujin in the

13 presence of Saponja, that it was the same contents as

14 the Bozo Kos statement, except for that "Yes" or "No,"

15 but I can't remember anything now because I didn't get

16 the first statement.

17 Q. Let me suggest, and I put to you, that what

18 you told (redacted) was that when you saw Kos

19 at Prijedor police station, there was only one question

20 on the questionnaire, and all you had to do was say

21 "Yes" or "No" and that was it.

22 A. At the top, the title, the heading of the

23 statement, my own data about myself, Tadic's data --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

25 A. -- only that "Yes" or "No." I can't quite

Page 862

1 say because I did not get a single copy from Bozo Kos.


3 Q. You told her, I suggest, that the two

4 documents were different.

5 A. Could you repeat, please? What two

6 documents?

7 Q. You told (redacted),

8 (redacted), that the statement, our Exhibit 18, the one

9 you have in front of you, and the questionnaire you'd

10 answered for Kos, were different.

11 A. Well, I don't remember exactly that I put it

12 that way, but I think that I said that I felt that just

13 because of that "Yes" or "No", because of that. Just

14 because of that "Yes" or "No", that there might have

15 been a mistake there.

16 Q. Now look, please, and you may need to look on

17 the ELMO, at the statement you gave to (redacted)

18 in Prijedor on the 27th of December of '98.

19 A. I know. I've looked at that statement and

20 I've read it.

21 Q. I'm looking --

22 MR. ABELL: If it helps Your Honours -- I

23 think Your Honours now have copies -- I'm looking at

24 the second last page of the typed copy.

25 I'm going to take it from: "The reason that

Page 863

1 I never gave my statement before..."

2 Q. Can you see it there, Mr. Preradovic?

3 A. Yes, I can see it. Yes.

4 Q. I'm going to read it in English and you can

5 hopefully follow it through as I read it:

6 "The reason I never gave my statement before

7 about those things is that I was absent due to my

8 obligations on the front line during '95 and '96. I am

9 sure if someone had tried to find me at that time, it

10 would have been very difficult because of the war. I

11 never met any of the lawyers of Dusko Tadic."

12 In fact, pausing, the first lawyer of

13 Mr. Dusko Tadic you actually met was (redacted),

14 wasn't it, on the 27th of December of 1998, when you

15 made this statement?

16 A. Yes. I made a statement on the 27th.

17 Q. And (redacted) was the first lawyer for

18 Dusko Tadic that you had ever met, and you met him on

19 that day?

20 A. Yes, the first lawyer of Dusko Tadic whom

21 I --

22 Q. And that obviously includes Mr. Milan Vujin,

23 doesn't it?

24 A. Milan Vujin. I met him after I had met this

25 other one, the first lawyer.

Page 864

1 Q. After you had met (redacted)?

2 A. Yes. Yes, after I met him.

3 Q. Thank you. I read on from the statement:

4 "I never met any of the lawyers of Dusko

5 Tadic. It is true that I received one telephone call

6 from Mr. Vujin. It was a very short conversation. He

7 only asked me if we could meet in connection with

8 Dusko's case and nothing more."

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. "Sometime after that, Commander Bogoljub

11 Kos, from the station in Prijedor, called me in to the

12 station because Mr. Vujin had left a questionnaire

13 there in connection with Dusko Tadic, and if I agreed

14 with the questions I should sign it.

15 "There were four or five copies of the same

16 questionnaire. Above my name there was only one

17 question: Did I or did I not see Dusko Tadic in

18 Kozarac during the attack on it? I answered "No," and

19 signed it. Nobody ever asked me what happened in

20 Kozarac on May 27th, 1992 or about the things I have

21 just stated about before."

22 That's what you said to (redacted), isn't

23 it, in your statement?

24 A. Yes, that's true, except for up there, the

25 heading. The heading. Everything else coincides.

Page 865

1 This "Yes"/"No", that was, I think, in front of my

2 name, where I was supposed to sign my name, I think,

3 but I haven't got a copy so I can't guarantee anything.

4 Q. Last question before we take a break. My

5 question was that what I just read out to you and what

6 you've seen on the screen, that is what you told

7 (redacted) in your statement in December of last

8 year, isn't it?

9 A. I don't see any difference, and everything

10 else -- what I said a moment ago. And this "Yes"/"No",

11 I think it was in front of my signature, but I can't

12 guarantee because I haven't got the copy. I haven't

13 received a copy. But the contents of the statement is

14 the same and it's just the heading, just the title. It

15 says my name and Tadic's.

16 MR. ABELL: Your Honours, would that be a

17 convenient moment? I have a few more questions after

18 the break, if I may.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Registrar, what will

20 happen with the technical arrangements?

21 THE REGISTRAR: There is no problem

22 whatsoever, Your Honour, and I do think that it is a

23 good thing to have a break for the good health of the

24 witness.


Page 866

1 Mr. Preradovic, we will suspend the sitting for about

2 30 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.35 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The sitting is resumed.

6 Are we in communication with Mr. Preradovic?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Word has come that

9 Mr. Preradovic has a medical appointment at 2 p.m. this

10 afternoon. So it would be good if counsel, without

11 doing any offence to his case, could expedite matters

12 so that we finish with this witness in good time. I

13 have in mind 1 p.m..

14 MR. ABELL: I have nearly finished.



17 Q. I'm still asking you questions,

18 Mr. Preradovic. When you saw Mr. Kos at Prijedor

19 police station, the only question you were asked about

20 Mr. Tadic was whether you had seen him or not at the

21 village.

22 A. Whether I had seen him? Where? In which

23 village?

24 Q. On the questionnaire, Mr. Preradovic.

25 Kozarac, the Kozarac village, the town.

Page 867

1 A. I saw Dusko Tadic only twice during the war

2 and both times in Prijedor.

3 Q. Yes. What I'm asking you about is when you

4 saw Mr. Kos, the only question you were asked about

5 Mr. Tadic, Dusko Tadic, was whether or not you had seen

6 him, "Yes" or "No", in Kozarac?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. You weren't asked, I suggest, any details

9 about any other names.

10 A. No. I -- hello? Can you hear me? I made a

11 mistake. I didn't take this copy. I'm telling you

12 that in all honesty.

13 Q. The questionnaire, you signed it, didn't you,

14 the questionnaire, at Prijedor police station?

15 A. I'm so sorry that I didn't take a single

16 copy. Everything would be much clearer now. I don't

17 know why they didn't give me this copy.

18 Q. The question was very simple. Did you sign

19 the questionnaire at Prijedor police station?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What we have at Exhibit 18 is not a copy of

22 what you signed at Prijedor police station.

23 A. For the time being, I cannot remember that.

24 However, the content is the same. There was a major

25 difference in terms of years, but that's the content,

Page 868

1 except for this "Yes"/"No" thing, and that is what

2 worries me now. I can't remember.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, the witness

4 has testified that the document which he signed at the

5 police station had a "Yes"/"No" legend, and he

6 recognises that that legend is not included in 18.

7 Could you not leave it to the Tribunal to draw an

8 inference as to whether the one document was the same

9 as the other?

10 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, indeed.


12 MR. ABELL: I'm grateful.



15 Q. Let me deal with this, please: You made that

16 statement on the 15th of February of '99 to (redacted)

17 (redacted)?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you made that statement to (redacted),

20 didn't you, of your own free will?

21 A. Own free will.

22 Q. Would you have it in front of you, please,

23 Exhibit 19?

24 A. Yes. Yes. I have it in front of me.

25 Q. When you made that statement to (redacted),

Page 869

1 you were doing your best, weren't you, to tell (redacted)

2 (redacted) the truth?

3 A. Yes. That's right.

4 Q. Well, look at that statement.

5 A. I'm looking at it, and I've already read it.

6 Q. You've read it. You make it clear in that

7 statement, don't you --

8 A. No.

9 Q. You make it clear in the statement, I

10 suggest, to (redacted), that our statement, Exhibit

11 18, is a clear fraud, a clear forgery.

12 A. I don't know whether there was a mistake in

13 the photocopy or in something, I don't know what, but

14 it seemed to me that it was not similar to this

15 statement. However, now --

16 THE INTERPRETER: There's been an

17 interruption.

18 A. -- a mistake.


20 Q. Of course, what happened between your making

21 that statement to (redacted) in February of '99 and

22 today, is your visit -- is the visit by Mr. Vujin and

23 Mr. Saponja to your home in Prijedor.

24 A. Before. Before.

25 Q. No, that's wrong. I'm not going to go back

Page 870

1 over the evidence. We have already dealt with the

2 dates.

3 Let me put this to you: You remember I was

4 asking you about what you told (redacted) when

5 you spoke with her? You told her, didn't you, that

6 whilst you would be prepared to give evidence of the

7 truth in relation to Mr. Tadic, you did not want to get

8 involved in saying anything that might hurt Mr. Vujin,

9 the lawyer?

10 A. Can you hear me?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I have already repeated what I had said. I

13 said twice already that there were three statements, at

14 Bozo Kos's, and at (redacted), and after that what

15 Vujin brought. They approximately have the same

16 content, except I haven't got the (redacted) statement or

17 the SUP statement here with me, Bozo Kos's either.

18 Q. My question was a very simple one. You told

19 (redacted), on the phone, that whilst you were

20 prepared to come to this court and tell the truth about

21 Mr. Tadic, you were not prepared to get involved in

22 giving evidence which might hurt the lawyer, Milan

23 Vujin?

24 A. No. I didn't understand this lady.

25 Q. You told her -- you told her as well, didn't

Page 871

1 you, that you had enough problems with your health

2 without an extra problem of getting involved in giving

3 evidence that might hurt Mr. Vujin?

4 A. I don't know what you are referring to in

5 terms of harming Mr. Vujin. I have my own health

6 problems. What I'm doing now, testifying, is very hard

7 for me.

8 MR. ABELL: Thank you. That's all I ask.

9 A. Because I have to stand by everything I say.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, you referred

11 to a statement made by the witness, dated 27 December,

12 1998, and I believe it was admitted as an exhibit.

13 Is that right, Mr. Registrar?

14 MR. ABELL: I would ask it to be if it hasn't

15 actually been given the exhibit number yet.

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. You would wish it

17 to be given an exhibit number.

18 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And may I suggest,

20 having regard to the character of this statement, that

21 it be put under seal.

22 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, yes.


24 Mr. Prosecutor --

25 I better explain to Mr. Preradovic that now

Page 872

1 some questions will be put to you by Mr. Keegan for the

2 Prosecution.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Questioned by Mr. Keegan:

5 Q. Mr. Preradovic, I'd like to go back to when

6 you were called to the police station in Prijedor to

7 look at this questionnaire. Prior to the time that you

8 were called by Bogoljub Kos to come to the station,

9 were you ever called by Mr. Vujin? Did you ever speak

10 with Mr. Vujin on the phone prior to going to the

11 Prijedor police station?

12 A. I did talk, but I do not remember when this

13 happened. I told Mr. Vujin that I was not capable of

14 testifying --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

16 A. -- testifying. So that's why I did not meet

17 with him.

18 Q. Can you recall whether, when you had this

19 conversation with Mr. Vujin, it was before you went to

20 the Prijedor police station and signed the

21 questionnaire, or after?

22 A. I talked before I went to the police station,

23 and later this questionnaire, statement, whatever, came

24 in.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

Page 873


2 Q. Can you remember what Mr. Vujin asked you

3 about on the telephone?

4 A. He asked me whether I could testify about

5 Dusko Tadic, because there were quite a few witnesses

6 who were willing to testify. I said to him that I saw

7 Dusko Tadic only twice during the war --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.


10 Q. Mr. Preradovic, we lost the last part of your

11 answer, the part that came after you told Mr. Vujin

12 that you saw Dusko Tadic only twice during the war, and

13 we lost what came after that.

14 A. Dusko Tadic, I saw him only twice in

15 Prijedor. Where I live --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

17 A. -- that's why I could not make any statement

18 to Mr. Vujin.


20 Q. Did Mr. Vujin ask you to go to the police

21 station to sign the questionnaire or statement?

22 A. I cannot remember that he asked me to do so.

23 He gave Bogoljub Kos that questionnaire so that

24 Bogoljub Kos could call me in to sign this. I didn't

25 even know what it was about.

Page 874

1 Q. Was it Bogoljub Kos who told you that

2 Mr. Vujin had given him the questionnaire?

3 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think that it

4 remained with him. This is quite a long period, so I

5 cannot remember everything.

6 Q. Mr. Preradovic, you stated earlier that there

7 were four or five copies of this questionnaire that you

8 saw at the Prijedor police station. Do you recall

9 whether all of the copies were the same; that is, were

10 they the exact same document?

11 A. Yes. Yes, the same content. All of it is

12 the same. I signed all of them, but unfortunately I

13 did not take any copies for myself, and that is,

14 unfortunately, why this happened.

15 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that you looked

16 at and read all four or five copies, however many there

17 were, before you signed them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. To the best of your recollection, did all of

20 the copies contain that reference to the question with

21 the "Yes" or "No" answer block in it?

22 A. As far as I can remember, yes, because --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.


25 Q. Mr. Preradovic, we lost your last answer.

Page 875

1 Could you repeat it, please?

2 A. On all these questionnaires, or statements, I

3 mean, the content was the same, and above my signature

4 there was this "Yes"/"No" thing. I cannot guarantee it

5 because I haven't got a copy with me.

6 Q. Do you have a copy of what is marked as

7 Exhibit 18 in front of you that's in the Serbian

8 language; that is, the copy with your signature on it?

9 A. Yes, I've got it.

10 Q. Can you please confirm for the Court, is that

11 your signature that appears on that document below your

12 name or not?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. When, to the best of your recollection, did

15 you sign this document?

16 A. I didn't understand you.

17 Q. When is it that you signed this document,

18 Exhibit 18?

19 A. I signed it when Slavko Saponja came with the

20 lawyer to Prijedor, the beginning of 1998. I can't

21 remember the date. It was mentioned at the beginning

22 of the statement.

23 Q. I'd like to refer to the meeting with (redacted)

24 (redacted). Is it your testimony that you

25 are not sure whether the statement which (redacted)

Page 876

1 showed you was either the same statement you signed in

2 the Prijedor police station or the same as the

3 statement which you signed for Mr. Vujin?

4 A. I think that almost all of the statements are

5 identical, almost. Only in the case of the (redacted)

6 (redacted) statement, which I did not get, just like I

7 didn't get the one in the SUP, I don't know whether it

8 was a question of having it retyped or something, but

9 all the statements boil down to the same thought, all

10 three statements.

11 Q. Did (redacted) tell you where he obtained

12 or where he got the copy of the statement which he

13 showed to you on that day?

14 A. I cannot remember that case.

15 Q. You cannot remember if he told you?

16 A. I cannot. Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot

17 remember. I'm not feeling too good.

18 Q. I will try to be brief, Mr. Preradovic. In

19 this statement which you gave to (redacted) which

20 we have before us, that statement --

21 A. I've got it too.

22 Q. Fine. If you could look at that statement as

23 I ask you the following questions: In that statement,

24 it says that the statement that you're being shown by

25 (redacted) is not consistent with the statement

Page 877

1 which you signed in Prijedor police station and in the

2 presence of the chief of police, Bozidar Kos,

3 presumably Bogoljub Kos. What did you mean by it's not

4 consistent with the statement that you signed in the

5 police station?

6 A. I think that perhaps there was a mistake in

7 the copying of the statement --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

9 A. -- perhaps this condition of mine affected

10 me too. However, all three statements are similar, and

11 what I wrote for Tadic, I believe that perhaps in terms

12 of the copy or the format or whatever, you know, in

13 that sense, that's how I wrote it.


15 Q. The penultimate sentence in that statement

16 you gave to (redacted) is quite declarative. It

17 says: "I am confirming that this statement," meaning

18 the one shown to you by (redacted), "is a clear

19 fraud and that I never gave such a statement." Did

20 you, in fact, say that to (redacted)?

21 A. Let me tell you, perhaps it's a mistake in

22 the copying of the statement that I had with me --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

24 A. -- "Yes" or "No," perhaps in connection with

25 this "Yes" or "No." I can't remember whether it was

Page 878

1 there, so that's why I stated that.


3 Q. Mr. Preradovic, when Mr. Vujin came to see

4 you and he showed you Exhibit 18 and you signed that

5 document, did you tell Mr. Vujin that the statement he

6 was showing you was different from the one that you

7 signed in the police station?

8 A. I told Mr. Vujin in writing, and I signed

9 this, that the statements were identical

10 approximately. That's what I think. However, I forgot

11 to mention to Vujin as well that it seemed to me

12 that --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, please?

15 MR. VUJIN: Thank you. I apologise to my

16 learned friend, Mr. Keegan. I don't want to make any

17 suggestions, but I think that a small error has

18 occurred with regard to Mr. Keegan's question related

19 to Exhibit 18 today. Because in response to

20 Mr. Keegan's question, it was said that Mr. Preradovic

21 signed this document when I visited him in March this

22 year. So could you please clear up this matter?

23 I presented this document as a document that

24 was signed in the police station, at Kos's, and when I

25 showed this document to Preradovic, it had already been

Page 879

1 signed by him, and Mr. Preradovic is talking about

2 another document that you don't know about yet;

3 however, during our examination, you're going to find

4 out. So could you please clarify this matter so that

5 there wouldn't be any confusion? Thank you.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, in addition

7 to an opportunity to examine the witness, you will have

8 an opportunity to present your own evidence on the

9 point.

10 MR. VUJIN: Thank you.


12 Q. Mr. Preradovic, let me first then return back

13 to Exhibit 18, and again I'd like you to look at the

14 copy you have before you, which is in your own language

15 and is signed by you. Once again, when is it that you

16 signed that document?

17 A. I can see it, yes.

18 Q. Can you please tell the Court when you signed

19 that document, the approximate date?

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Keegan, what

21 document are you referring to?

22 MR. KEEGAN: Exhibit 18, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I have information,

24 Mr. Keegan, that the date at the top of the document

25 was inserted by an officer of the Tribunal --

Page 880

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: -- and the document was

3 likely to be signed before that date.

4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, but there is

5 no date on the actual Serbian version, and I'm trying

6 to see if the witness can tell us when he recalls

7 signing the document.

8 Q. Mr. Preradovic, do you recall my question and

9 can you answer it, please?

10 MR. KEEGAN: It appears we may have lost the

11 signal, Your Honour.

12 [Technical difficulty]

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: This has happened

14 before. I do not surrender all hope.

15 What do you say, Mr. Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. I think that ideally we

17 should just be patient.


19 Q. Mr. Preradovic, referring to --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- Exhibit 18, can you confirm for the Court

22 whether or not you signed this document in 1998?

23 A. Are you referring to the document --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.


Page 881

1 Q. I'm referring to the document marked Exhibit

2 18, which is the document that begins "On the request

3 of Mr. Milan Vujin, defence counsel of Dusko Tadic, I

4 give the following statement ..."

5 A. That statement? That statement was signed

6 by -- it was signed this year, it seems to me, when

7 Saponja came to see me in Prijedor.

8 Q. Mr. Preradovic, there are only three exhibits

9 that have been introduced this morning: Exhibits 18,

10 19, and 20. Exhibit 18 is the document we have been

11 referring to just now in my questions, Exhibit 19 is

12 the statement which you gave to (redacted), and

13 Exhibit 20 is the statement which you gave to

14 (redacted). We have reason to believe that Exhibit

15 18 was signed sometime prior to 5 February, 1998. Do

16 you have any recollection of signing such a document

17 prior to 5 February, 1998?

18 A. The evidence -- material evidence and the

19 statement by Mr. Vujin is this last one that I have in

20 front of me, and not the one from the SUP, which was

21 signed this year, but I don't remember exactly when.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I should explain that to

23 prevent the parties from being misled, I made the

24 statement which I did make about the insertion by an

25 officer of the Tribunal of that date. If the parties

Page 882

1 are disagreed about that, then evidence could be led on

2 the point.

3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't

4 have anything further, Your Honour. Thank you.


6 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, just before there's

7 any further cross-examination, it may be sensible to

8 elicit in some way, shape, or form that the document

9 that the witness in Banja Luka has in front of him,

10 Exhibit 18, must be a photocopy and that he's not

11 looking at any original. I assume that to be the

12 case. It may be important.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The Tribunal gives you

14 leave to ask one question on that point.

15 MR. ABELL: Thank you.

16 Further questions by Mr. Abell:

17 Q. Mr. Preradovic, you've been asked some

18 questions about Exhibit 18. That's the statement which

19 begins "On the request of Mr. Milan Vujin ..." Do you

20 have that?

21 A. "At the request of the lawyer, the defence

22 counsel for Mr. Dusko Tadic," that is the statement I

23 have before me.

24 Q. No, no, no. On the request of Mr. Milan

25 Vujin, Exhibit 18.

Page 883


2 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours, in the Serbian

3 language, this statement reads as it was read out by

4 the witness, Mr. Preradovic. Perhaps the translation

5 is a little different and that is why this has come

6 about.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I thought as much,

8 Mr. Domazet.

9 Mr. Abell, I believe that the problem is that

10 we're dealing with different languages, but the

11 substance is the same.

12 MR. ABELL: I'm very grateful.

13 Q. You and I are looking at the same exhibit.

14 Do you still have it in front of you, Mr. Preradovic?

15 A. Yes, I have it. I do.

16 Q. That document that you have in front of you,

17 it is a photocopy, isn't it? It is not the original

18 document, is it?

19 A. Well, I don't know exactly.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Has it got your

21 signature on it, Mr. Preradovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is that the original

24 signature or a copy of your signature?

25 A. My signature, the one I signed, but it's

Page 884

1 probably a copy, but it is my signature.

2 MR. ABELL: That's all I wanted to

3 establish.


5 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours --

6 MR. VUJIN: I have several questions to ask

7 before Mr. Domazet.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You must elect whether

9 the questions will be put by you or Mr. Domazet. Which

10 will it be? You will put all the questions or will

11 Mr. Domazet put the questions?

12 MR. VUJIN: In this case, when it is a

13 question of this witness, I am going to ask the

14 questions because I have been given leave to head my

15 own defence.

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All that the Chamber

17 wanted to know is whether you would be asking the

18 questions or Mr. Domazet. Fine. Go ahead.

19 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, Your Honours. If you

20 wish, I can show you the original of the statement that

21 has been designated with the number 18, if anything is

22 being contested. If it isn't, then we can continue

23 immediately. So that you can compare it to the copy

24 which Mr. Preradovic himself has.

25 MR. ABELL: Your Honours, I don't want

Page 885

1 Mr. Vujin to be under any misapprehension at all. On

2 behalf of Mr. Tadic, the authenticity of the document,

3 Exhibit 18, is very much in issue. In our submission,

4 it is a forgery.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin is doing the

6 correct thing in making the original available to the

7 Chamber.

8 MR. ABELL: In case there is any question

9 about it. There is --

10 MR. VUJIN: Could I offer the Court another

11 statement by Mr. Preradovic?

12 THE REGISTRAR: If you so wish, Your Honour,

13 it might be good to give an exhibit number for the

14 original. The original would be 18C.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good. I take it

16 that the Registrar would make photocopies available to

17 the parties?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, but you

19 know that the copy of it has already been given to the

20 parties because this is Exhibit 18, and I can only show

21 you the original, because otherwise, if I make

22 photocopies, they will become copies.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No. There is a question

24 as to whether those copies are the same as this

25 original. So would you kindly make copies of this

Page 886

1 exhibit available to the parties?

2 MR. VUJIN: Your Honours, I have a copy of

3 that document, sufficient examples.

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Perhaps, Mr. Vujin, on

5 this occasion we could relieve you of that

6 responsibility and ask the Registrar to make copies.

7 Yes.

8 MR. VUJIN: Thank you.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might. The

10 question is: Do those copies have original signatures

11 or are they photocopies of the signatures as well? In

12 other words, did he sign more than one copy, is what

13 I'm asking.

14 MR. VUJIN: No, he signed the original copy

15 of the original. The copy of the original has the

16 signature.

17 I would now like to offer, before I ask the

18 questions, because there has been -- I think the

19 mistake there is I have the original of the statement

20 by Mr. Preradovic, dated the 15th of March, 1999.

21 MR. ABELL: I mean no disrespect to

22 interrupt, but I must express considerable concern

23 about what is now taking place.

24 Mr. Vujin is the accused in relation to --

25 I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but he is -- in

Page 887

1 relation to these contempt proceedings. He has elected

2 to have counsel appear with him, and as I understood

3 Your Honours' ruling right at the outset, Mr. Vujin was

4 allowed right of audience. I have no complaint as to

5 the court's decision in relation to that. Either he or

6 Mr. Domazet can elect, therefore, to cross-examine

7 witnesses. I don't object to that.

8 What I'm very concerned about, with the

9 greatest of respect, is it sounds as if what we are

10 getting is either a speech or evidence from Mr. Vujin,

11 and not only that, but evidence or a speech that this

12 witness is presumably listening to on the video, and I

13 would respectfully submit that if Mr. Vujin wants to,

14 in due course, give evidence, the appropriate time is

15 not now. If he wishes to ask questions, that's a

16 different matter.

17 Forgive me for interrupting but, in my

18 submission, we must be very careful here indeed.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: We'll explain to

20 Mr. Vujin that his function at this time is limited to

21 asking questions, but if he wants to put in material

22 through this witness in the normal way, I don't see any

23 objection to that course.

24 Yes, Mr. Vujin. Please limit your questions

25 to questions which could be answered by the witness.

Page 888

1 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, Your Honours. Can I

2 now ask directly, ask Mr. Preradovic directly

3 something? Can Mr. Preradovic hear me?

4 Examined by Mr. Vujin:

5 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Preradovic?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Mr. Preradovic, when I visited you in

8 Prijedor with Mr. Saponja, that was on the 15th of

9 March, 1999, exactly on the day when you were to leave

10 for Banja Luka. Did I, on that occasion, ask you, when

11 I showed you the statement which you signed at

12 Bozo Kos's, to write several -- give us several

13 examples of your signature and to confirm that that is

14 your signature so as to be able to compare that

15 signature with the signature you placed on the

16 statement at Bozo Kos's?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Did I leave you a copy of that statement?

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. Have you got a copy of that statement with

21 you?

22 A. I haven't got it with me. I have it at

23 home.

24 Q. Could we now show that statement to

25 Mr. Preradovic, dated the 15th of March? I have enough

Page 889

1 copies here in English and Serbian, and the original as

2 well.

3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 21.

4 MR. VUJIN: I would like to have this shown

5 to witness Preradovic now, please.

6 Q. Can you see the document, Mr. Preradovic,

7 dated the 15th of March?

8 A. I have this one in front of me, but I can't

9 see yours.

10 Q. Can you see the text, the statement of the

11 15th of March?

12 A. Yes, I can see it now. I see it.

13 Q. On the text that you can see, in the upper

14 left-hand corner are there four signatures there?

15 A. Focus in, please, on the document, the upper

16 half. I can't see the upper half. I can see my

17 signature, but I want to see the upper part of the

18 document.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Yes, that's this.

21 Q. Are those your signatures?

22 A. Yes, they are.

23 Q. Can you read what it says underneath those

24 signatures?

25 A. Could you put the document up a bit?

Page 890

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Thank you.

3 Q. Would you read it out aloud, please,

4 Mr. Preradovic?

5 A. Could you bring it up closer? Could I have a

6 close-up, please?

7 "For my signatures to be used for the

8 statement that I gave to a lawyer, Mr. Vujin, at

9 Bozo Kos's."

10 Then the date.

11 Q. And the signature on the right hand; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Did you write this in your own hand, all of

15 this?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. When I requested you to write down your

18 signature several times and to confirm this, did I

19 exert any pressure on you?

20 A. No, you did not.

21 Q. Did I ask you to sign anything else apart

22 from that? Can you hear me, Mr. Preradovic?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you once again to confirm

25 whether the signatures, the four signatures in the

Page 891

1 upper part of the document, are your own signatures and

2 whether the signature at the bottom of the document is

3 your signature as well.

4 A. Yes, Mr. Vujin, all of it.

5 Q. Did you, at any time, because you've said

6 that you didn't have any contact with the lawyers of

7 Dusko Tadic, did you at any time talk to Mr. Miodrag

8 Kostic sometime in February 1996, who was the

9 investigator of the Tribunal; that is to say, of the

10 former Defence counsel of Mr. Tadic? Did Mr. Kostic

11 have a talk with you?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. You don't remember. Thank you.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, may I ask you

15 to pause to inquire whether-- it's now a little after

16 1.00, and information has reached me as to the

17 necessity for Mr. Tadic to go somewhere for awhile, and

18 we have also on our hands the fact that Mr. Preradovic

19 has a medical appointment. So it's either we finish

20 within a few minutes or we go over to the afternoon,

21 and then I don't know how Mr. Preradovic will stand for

22 that.

23 What's your position? Will you be much

24 longer?

25 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, I have concluded the

Page 892

1 questioning of Mr. Preradovic. I just need two minutes

2 to give the court two more exhibits.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then may I ask --

4 MR. VUJIN: Just --

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: -- if it is all right

6 for his client to leave the room now? I believe his

7 client wishes to leave the room now.

8 MR. ABELL: May I just take instructions if

9 that's correct?

10 [Appellant withdrew]

11 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, that's acceptable.

12 MR. VUJIN: Just one more question.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You accept the

14 proceedings go on in his absence?

15 MR. ABELL: Yes.


17 Q. Mr. Preradovic, can you hear me?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. On the day that I came to you and asked you

20 to sign me -- give me several examples of your

21 signature, did I give you, at your request, a photocopy

22 of your statement, the one you made at Bozo Kos's?

23 A. Well, let me tell you this way: Yes, you did

24 give me the statement, but I said to the lawyer

25 beforehand, Tadic's present lawyer, that I seem to feel

Page 893

1 there was -- but the contents are the same.

2 THE INTERPRETER: There was an interruption,

3 we apologise.


5 Q. All I asked you was whether I left you with a

6 copy of that statement. Did the copy stay with you?

7 A. I received a copy of the statement, yes,

8 but -- that is to say, this one, but I think that they

9 are the copies that I signed at Bozo Kos's, but the

10 contents are there.

11 Q. So those are the copies at Bozo Kos's which I

12 transmitted?

13 A. I haven't got a copy.

14 Q. Yes. Just one more question for you, Mr.

15 Preradovic. When we spoke over the phone and when you

16 said that you wouldn't be able to testify, did you, at

17 that moment or a little beforehand, were you in

18 hospital, and was that the reason that you were not

19 able to come and testify, because of your illness?

20 A. On one occasion I was outside Prijedor. On

21 the second occasion I was in hospital, but I don't

22 quite remember, but I was absent for valid reasons both

23 times.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. Just this thing now. Vujin, can I go on a

Page 894

1 bit?

2 Q. Yes.

3 MR. VUJIN: I have no further questions, Your

4 Honour, for this witness.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we'd like to ask

6 leave to ask one question about this document.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you be long?

8 MR. KEEGAN: One question only, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You're aware of the

10 problems?

11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I should perhaps inquire

13 from the interpreters whether they're agreeable to our

14 proceeding for another few minutes.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

16 THE INTERPRETER: No problem, Your Honour.


18 Questioned by Mr. Keegan:

19 Q. Mr. Preradovic, I'd like to ask you one

20 further question about Exhibit 18, which is the

21 statement headed, "On the question of Mr. Vujin, the

22 Defence counsel of Dusko Tadic". You still have that

23 document in front of you, sir?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Can you please tell us, do you recall ever

Page 895

1 signing more than one copy of this particular

2 statement, this particular document?

3 A. The one I have before me here? Number 18 you

4 mean?

5 Q. Yes, when you signed that statement, on the

6 occasion that you signed it, do you remember if you

7 signed more than one copy?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. Well, I did at Bozo Kos's. I did sign

11 there.

12 Q. Thank you, sir.

13 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, when Mr. Vujin was

14 cross-examining, the witness indicated -- was in the

15 middle of an answer, and I wrote this down: "I said to

16 Tadic's present lawyer that I can't," and then he was,

17 with respect to Mr. Vujin, interrupted, and we never

18 got the end of that answer. I'm afraid the LiveNote

19 transcript has moved up the page and I don't know how

20 to get it down again, but it may be of assistance to

21 the Tribunal to hear what that answer would have been

22 if Mr. Vujin hadn't cut it short.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would Mr. Preradovic

24 like to answer that question briefly?

25 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, just bear with me

Page 896

1 whilst we try to get the LiveNote back to the relevant

2 passage.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Vujin, the Chamber

4 will give you a chance in a moment.

5 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 MR. ABELL: Let me try without the aid of a

7 note. May I, Your Honour?


9 Questioned by Mr. Abell:

10 Q. Mr. Preradovic -- Mr. Preradovic, can you

11 hear us?

12 A. Yes, I can. I hear you.

13 Q. Do you remember Mr. Vujin asking you some

14 questions a few moments ago?

15 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

16 Q. Do you remember Mr. Vujin asking you

17 questions a few moments ago?

18 A. I remember him asking me questions in

19 relation to what I signed at his place. I don't

20 remember the other questions. I remember as far as the

21 signatures go.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, is it

23 possible to put to the witness --

24 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, it is. The LiveNote

25 is now coming and I'm trying to get the accurate

Page 897

1 question.

2 Q. You were asked this question by Mr. Vujin:

3 Q On the day that I came to you and asked

4 you to give me several examples of your

5 signature, did I give you, at your

6 request, a photocopy of your statement,

7 the one that you made at Bozo Kos's?

8 And your answer was:

9 A Well, let me tell you this way. Yes,

10 you did give me the statement, but I

11 said to the lawyer beforehand, Tadic's

12 present lawyer ...

13 Pause there, Mr. Preradovic. Do you mean

14 (redacted)?

15 A. I didn't understand you.

16 Q. Mr. Tadic's present lawyer. You said you

17 told Mr. Tadic's present lawyer something about the

18 statement. Did you mean by "present lawyer", (redacted)

19 (redacted)?

20 A. I don't know, in concrete terms, what that

21 refers to.

22 Q. All right. You went on in your answer:

23 A I told -- I said to the lawyer

24 beforehand, Tadic's present lawyer, that

25 I seemed to feel that there was ...

Page 898

1 You were referring to the statement. What

2 did you seem to feel? Seemed to feel that there was

3 what, and you were interrupted. Seemed to feel that

4 there was what?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 MR. ABELL: I'm not going to ask any more.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Mr. Abell, the

8 court has been very flexible with you. The court might

9 have taken the position that you ought, at the proper

10 time, to have intervened on that.

11 Now, Mr. Vujin.

12 MR. VUJIN: Your Honours, I am concluding, by

13 tendering another document, and that is an expert

14 opinion as to the identity of the signatures.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: May I ask you to reserve

16 that for the time when you're giving evidence, because

17 at this stage we're only concerned with questioning the

18 witness. But you will have a full opportunity --

19 MR. VUJIN: Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let me see if my

21 colleagues have any questions.

22 Only one little question, Mr. Preradovic, if

23 you're there.

24 A. Yes, I can hear you.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I gather from you that

Page 899

1 there was no material inconsistency between the

2 statement which you made to Kos and this statement

3 which you gave to Mr. Vujin. Then can you tell us why

4 you troubled to make this statement to (redacted),

5 dated 15th February, 1999? Why did you feel it

6 necessary to make that statement to (redacted) if you

7 thought that there was no contradiction between the

8 statement which you gave to Mr. Kos and the statement

9 which you gave to Mr. Vujin?

10 A. Well, let me put it this way: The statement

11 I gave to (redacted), it is the same -- the contents are

12 the same as the other one, except that with (redacted)

13 statement, I seem to think that something was not very

14 clear, either in the copy or something else, and that

15 is why I gave this, and I don't know why I should have

16 given the statement at all.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, indeed. That's the

18 same question that I'm asking myself. Thank you very

19 much.

20 Well, we're through with this witness, are

21 we? Then the witness is excused and we will suspend

22 the sitting until 3.00.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.18 p.m.


Page 900

1 --- On resuming at 3.03 p.m.

2 [Closed session]











13 pages 900 to 955 redacted - in closed session.













Page 956

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]



15 opportunity of announcing, for the convenience of all,

16 that tomorrow we shall work from 9.30 to 1 p.m. with

17 a coffee break. We will not be able to sit during the

18 remainder of the day. So 9.30 to 1.00.

19 Call in the next witness.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Can you hear me,

22 Witness?

23 THE WITNESS: I can hear you, sir.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Your name is Sasa

25 Maric?


Page 957

1 THE WITNESS: That's right.

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will you kindly take the

3 solemn declaration?

4 THE WITNESS: I understand that. I solemnly

5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

6 and nothing but the truth.


8 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

9 WITNESS: Witness B.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness B, will you tell

12 us where you were born and when?

13 A. I was born in Banja Luka on the 1st of

14 February, (redacted).

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where do you live now?

16 A. Banja Luka.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What work do you do?

18 A. A waiter in Bosna.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Maric, did you make

20 a statement, a written statement, in this case? I will

21 ask the Registrar to show you.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This will

23 be Exhibit 24, which is filed with the Registry under

24 the number 5131.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Have a look at this

Page 958

1 statement and see if that is the statement you made.

2 A. Very well. Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: When you made this

4 statement, the contents were true and correct?

5 A. The truth and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The signature at the

7 bottom is your signature?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The contents of the

10 statement are still true today?

11 A. Fully.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then I would ask you to

13 take some questions from Mr. Abell, counsel for

14 Mr. Tadic.

15 Questioned by Mr. Abell:

16 Q. You speak in your statement of an occasion at

17 the Bosna Hotel when you were joined by (redacted),

18 and a little later you were joined by the lawyer Milan

19 Vujin and another lawyer, Simo Tosic.

20 A. Mr. Tosic.

21 Q. And that there was a conversation involving

22 all of you, where you all sat together; is that right?

23 A. That's right. But I was only a guest there

24 with (redacted); I kept him company.

25 Q. And (redacted) was speaking to you about some

Page 959

1 problems that he'd had?

2 A. Well, he said that he was being threatened,

3 that sort of thing.

4 Q. Mr. Vujin spoke, telling him not to worry

5 about it and that if need be, he, (redacted), could

6 come to Mr. Vujin; is that right?

7 A. Precisely.

8 Q. And (redacted) spoke then of (redacted)

9 (redacted), saying that he had spoken to them about it;

10 is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Now, you say that Mr. Simo Tosic then said

13 something. Remind us. What did he say? What did

14 Mr. Tosic say about that, when (redacted)

15 (redacted) were mentioned?

16 A. To have as little contact as possible with

17 foreign lawyers. Because they were foreign lawyers, he

18 should have as little contact as possible with them.

19 Q. Where was Mr. Vujin when Mr. Tosic said that?

20 A. We were sitting at the same table.

21 Q. How close was he to Mr. Tosic when that was

22 said by Mr. Tosic?

23 A. Well, we were sitting at a round table -- a

24 square table, a round table.

25 Q. What was Mr. Vujin's reaction, if anything,

Page 960

1 when Mr. Tosic said that?

2 A. A normal reaction.

3 Q. Did he in any way appear to disagree with

4 Mr. Tosic, with his saying that he should have as

5 little contact with (redacted) as possible because

6 he was a foreign lawyer?

7 A. There were no comments.

8 Q. To make sure that we've understood this

9 correctly, would that have been in the summer of 1998,

10 last summer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you remember if it was early or late

13 summer?

14 A. Sometime in August.

15 Q. Yes. Thank you.

16 MR. ABELL: That's all I ask.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Before you begin,

18 Mr. Keegan, Mr. Registrar, did we give a number to this

19 statement?

20 MR. ABELL: Twenty-four.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Twenty-four. We

22 admitted it as an exhibit? There are no objections, I

23 take it? No objections. Fine. The record has been

24 straightened out. Thank you.

25 Mr. Keegan, yes?

Page 961

1 MR. KEEGAN: We have no questions, Your

2 Honour.


4 MR. DOMAZET: Your Honours, we have no

5 questions.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No questions. Well, I

7 will not say that the bench is disappointed. I think

8 we may excuse the witness.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 [Appeals Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Demand has outstripped

12 supply this afternoon. We don't have another witness.

13 So until tomorrow at 9.30, and we will then

14 adjourn until that moment. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16 5.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

17 the 3rd day of September, 1999, at

18 9.30 a.m.