Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 304

1 Tuesday, 10th July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody once again today.

6 May the Registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Appearances for today,

10 Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon to the Trial

12 Chamber, counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom.

13 For the Prosecution today, Daryl Mundis, Kyle Wood, and our case

14 manager, Alma Imamovic.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Ms. Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

17 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson, representing General Rasim

18 Delic. Lana Deljkic is our case manager, and also our legal assistant on

19 the case, Asja Zujo.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Madam

21 Vidovic.

22 Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 The Prosecution, in completing its opening, has just a few

25 remaining topics to deal with, the first being the issue of compensation

Page 305

1 for members of the Mujahedin Detachment. And I start by quoting from

2 paragraph 139 of the Defence Pre-Trial Brief, which indicated that the

3 Mujahedin never received monthly salaries from the ARBiH.

4 I'm not specifically going to address the issue of monthly

5 salaries, but I will say this: The Prosecution intends to lead evidence

6 during the course of this trial in the form of pay records that clearly

7 indicate that at least at the conclusion of the war, members of the

8 Mujahedin Detachment, including foreign members, were compensated for

9 their service in the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 And I turn now to PT2887. This is one of many documents, similar

11 documents, which are from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry

12 of Defence. This first record that you see before you relates to an

13 individual named Halid Ibrahim. And if you look again, Republic of Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina, Ministry of Defence, we'll see excerpts from this is

15 document.

16 Mr. Ibrahim served in the armed forces from the 13th of September,

17 1992 until 25 December 1995, and indicates that his compensation was

18 16.000 Deutsche marks.

19 Similarly, Mohammed el-Saidi served in the same period of time,

20 that is, 13th of September, 1992 until 25 December, 1995, and was

21 similarly compensated 16.000 Deutsche marks for his service in the ARBiH.

22 Following up on that, this same large collection of pay records

23 indicates what are actually a receipt book; and, again, if you look

24 closely on this document, you will see individual names. You'll see,

25 under the column number 5, an abbreviation for demobilised or "Demob."

Page 306

1 demobilised. Column 12 - and, again, this excerpts from the document -

2 Column 12 indicates the amounts in Deutsche marks that these individuals

3 were paid for their military service; and then we see the signatures of

4 these individuals, which would lead to the conclusion that they actually

5 received the funds in question.

6 And, again, this issue, we would submit, will go to demonstrating

7 clearly that these foreign fighters were, in fact, members of the Army of

8 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Let me turn to another indicia: Promotion, military promotions

10 for members of the Mujahedin Detachment and its leaders.

11 PT1771 is a document dated 25 July 1994. Keep in mind what I told

12 you yesterday about the knowledge of the leadership of the ARBiH

13 concerning members of the Mujahedin Detachment. We spoke about Operation

14 Vranduk, we spoke about the killing of Paul Goodale, we spoke about the

15 knowledge of the criminality of certain members of that unit.

16 Yet on the 25th of July, 1994, we see a proposal for the promotion

17 of ranks, and this document is addressed to the ARBiH Presidency. And in

18 this document, we see, among the individuals proposed for promotion to the

19 rank of captain first class, Abu Maali, 3rd Corps, El Mujahedin Detachment

20 Commander.

21 Later in this document, with respect to a proposal for the rank of

22 captain, we see a number of additional El Mujahedin Detachment leaders,

23 including Muatez, Abu Aiman, Abu Haris. This document at least bears the

24 typed signature of Rasim Delic. It's a bit unclear, because of the stamp,

25 whether the accused actually signed it, but it's certainly on the

Page 307

1 letterhead of the Main Staff commander and certainly bears his typed name.

2 Next, let's turn to honours for the Mujahedin Detachment and its

3 leader; again, 1995, December 1st. This is a document that clearly

4 indicates that with regard to the third anniversary of the ARBiH, and

5 owing to exceptional results achieved in carrying out combat and other

6 assignments: "I hereby issue the following order," commending the units

7 listed below. The first unit listed is the Mujahedin Unit. Later in the

8 document, we see commendations for individuals, including Abu Maali. This

9 document is signed by the accused, Rasim Delic.

10 On 23 December 1995, we see a similar document: "Based upon the

11 proposal of the 3rd Corps commander, I hereby award for their overall

12 contribution to the armed resistance, to the aggressor against the

13 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially for personal courage

14 demonstrated in combat operations in the zone of responsibility of the 3rd

15 Corps, the Golden Lily," which is the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina's

16 highest award. A number of individuals are listed, including obviously

17 some individuals whose names would indicate that they do not come from

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 It's also interesting, in this respect, that one of these names is

20 of a German individual, and we will lead evidence that some of the

21 Mujahedin came from West European countries as well. This document

22 similarly is signed by the accused Rasim Delic.

23 Let's turn now almost to the final chapter of this opening, to the

24 issue of disbandment of the Mujahedin Detachment.

25 PT2809, dated 12 December 1995, with a handwritten notation in the

Page 308

1 middle. And, again, we have the Bosnian version at the top and the

2 English translation; in the middle of the Bosnian translation, a

3 handwritten note: "Personally delivered to General Mahmuljin," again at

4 that point in time the 3rd Corps commander. This document relates to the

5 disbandment of the Mujahedin Detachment.

6 Under paragraph 1: "Disband the current El Mujahedin Unit of the

7 ARBiH, 3rd Corps."

8 Subparagraph (c): "Foreign citizens, volunteers, former members

9 of the war unit, together with their personal equipment, are to be

10 dismissed from the unit not later than 31 December 1995, with the

11 provision of their compulsory departure from the country no later than 10

12 January 1996."

13 Subparagraph (f): "All material and technical equipment owned by

14 the ARBiH are to be redistributed to other units of the 3rd Corps."

15 And under paragraph 2, "Final Provisions," again, a repetition of

16 the requirement that this order, the disbandment and departure from the

17 territory of Bosnia, is to be completed by 10 January 1996, along with a

18 requirement that stamps, seals, and documentation that are unnecessary to

19 be kept are to be inventoried and burned in the presence of a committee.

20 Again, the disbandment order signed, we would submit, by the accused Rasim

21 Delic.

22 This order, these documents that you've just seen, were a

23 requirement of Article 3 of Annex 1 of the Dayton Agreement ending the war

24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, by which all foreign fighters were required to

25 leave the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 309

1 We will lead evidence that prior to the disbandment of the

2 Mujahedin Detachment, the accused, along with President Izetbegovic, the

3 President of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, met

4 with the leadership of the Mujahedin Detachment and informed them that the

5 unit would be officially disbanded.

6 Yesterday, Your Honours, I told you that this case was about

7 values, decisions, and inaction. You've heard a brief sketch of where the

8 Prosecution expects the evidence to lead. I've also indicated that, in

9 many respects, inaction speaks louder than words.

10 In closing this opening, the Prosecution points to one instance

11 where the actions of the accused are consistent with his inaction. After

12 the official disbandment of the Mujahedin Detachment, the Army of the

13 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina held a farewell function in honour of

14 the Mujahedin Detachment. The accused, Rasim Delic, attended that

15 farewell ceremony.

16 Your Honours, the Prosecution is prepared to proceed in the case

17 against General Rasim Delic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

19 Madam Vidovic, at the pre-trial conference, the other day, the

20 Defence indicated that it is not the intention of the Defence to make

21 opening statements or to make statements by the accused at this stage. Do

22 you confirm that that's still the case?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is still the case, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 310

1 Mr. Mundis, call your witness.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls

3 Andrew Hogg, and my colleague, Mr. Wood, will be leading this evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 While we are waiting for the witness to come and take the stand,

6 the Registrar will take a few moments to assign exhibit numbers to those

7 50 or so documents that the Trial Chamber indicated must be given exhibit

8 numbers individually.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 On the 15th of June, 2007, the Trial Chamber issued a decision to

11 admit the 48 so-called Law Library documents; and, subsequently,

12 yesterday, there was a clarification to that particular order; whereby,

13 the index prefacing those 48 documents were also -- was also admitted.

14 And there was an oral order to assign exhibit numbers to the index as well

15 as the 48 documents.

16 Following that particular written decision, as well as the oral

17 order, the index will be admitted as Exhibit number 1, and the 48

18 documents consisting of the Law library will be assigned Exhibit numbers 2

19 to 49.

20 Secondly, on the 9th of July, the Trial Chamber issued an order to

21 admit statements -- further statements, transcripts, and exhibits of

22 Witness -- or deceased Witness Marijan Bobas and to assign one exhibit

23 number. Pursuant to that order, all collection referred to earlier will

24 be Exhibit number 50.

25 Thank you.

Page 311

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 Good afternoon, Mr. Hogg.

3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, please, stand up and take the oath.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

9 Mr. Wood.

10 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examination by Mr. Wood:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hogg.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. What's your current occupation?

15 A. I'm the head of press for the British Charity, the medical

16 foundation for the care of victims of torture.

17 Q. And what did you do before that?

18 A. I was a journalist for 25 years.

19 Q. What was your beat in 1992?

20 A. In 1992, I was the Middle East correspondent for "The Sunday

21 Times" of London.

22 Q. And what did that exactly entail?

23 A. It entailed covering a very wide beat, in fact, that stretched

24 essentially from Morocco to Afghanistan. In the middle of 1992, it

25 expanded to include the conflict in Bosnia.

Page 312

1 Q. And I've been asked to slow down a little bit. Since we both

2 speak English, we have a tendency to answer each other very quickly, but

3 the interpreters need time to catch up. I apologise for that, and I'll do

4 my best to slow down.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. You mentioned that in 1992, your beat expanded into Bosnia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you explain to the Court why that is?

9 A. Well, to two reasons, really. The Israeli-Palestine conflict went

10 into abeyance because there were meetings that nobody knew about taking

11 place in a farmhouse outside Oslo, so things were relatively quiet on that

12 front. I was also -- having travelled extensively in Muslim countries in

13 the months preceding my first trip to Bosnia, I was also aware of the fact

14 that the fate of the Muslims of Bosnia was of considerable interest to

15 people in most of the countries I was covering at that time.

16 Q. So if your beat expanded into Bosnia and Herzegovina, what did

17 that mean for you on a day-to-day basis?

18 A. Well, between 1992 and 1994, I made, I think, in total some seven

19 trips to Croatia and Bosnia. I spent almost a year in total covering the

20 conflict there. I would typically go in for about six weeks and then

21 either return to London or go on to some other country to continue

22 working; and then I would return to Bosnia, I would say, sort of a month

23 or two later.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you now some questions about your first trip to

25 Bosnia.

Page 313

1 Can you tell the Court when that was?

2 A. The first trip to Bosnia, from memory, I flew out to Croatia at

3 the end of July in 1992, and I was there for approximately a month.

4 Q. And during the course of that month --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. I'm sorry, Mr. Hogg. The question

6 was to Bosnia, not to Croatia.

7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I should clarify that. I flew out to

8 Croatia, where I spent a week or two weeks, and then I went on from there

9 to Bosnia, where I stayed until the end of August. August.

10 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour, that was my next question.

11 Q. Now, In the year preceding your first trip to Bosnia, what

12 countries had you been in?

13 A. I have been in Algeria, I have been to Afghanistan, I have been to

14 Kurdistan, and I have been -- I think, by that time, I would certainly

15 have been in Israel.

16 Q. So, during this first trip, were you travelling with anybody?

17 A. My first trip, I met up with a "Sunday Times" photographer at --

18 in Zagreb, in Croatia, and we travelled, together with a Croatian

19 interpreter, down into Bosnia.

20 Q. What's the name of the photographer?

21 A. His name is Simon Townsley.

22 Q. Do you recall exactly when you went to Bosnia in 1992?

23 A. I can't put a precise date on it. But, I think, as I was there

24 for a month, I would assume it would have been the start of week three.

25 Q. And how did you get to Bosnia?

Page 314

1 A. We took a -- we took a car ferry from Rijeka down to Split, and we

2 then hired a car in Split and we travelled over-land into Bosnia.

3 Q. Did you have any story in particular in mind when you arrived in

4 Bosnia in August 1992?

5 A. Yes, I did. I had one in Split. I had been making inquiries,

6 really sort of about the situation generally of a group of young men who

7 were acting as the sort of press liaison officers for the Croat leader of

8 Herzegovina. And I asked - and I can't remember why I would have asked

9 this question - but I asked if they knew the whereabouts of the Mujahedin.

10 I was curious as to whether foreign Mujahedin had arrived in Bosnia,

11 because I had firsthand experience, both in Algeria and in Afghanistan

12 itself, of the -- of the influence of these fighters.

13 Q. So when you travelled to Bosnia, what was your destination?

14 A. Well, from Split, asking one of these young men the whereabouts of

15 the Mujahedin, he told me that I should go to Travnik if I wanted to find

16 foreign fighters.

17 Q. So did you proceed to Travnik?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. And what did you do? What's the first thing you did when you got

20 there?

21 A. The first thing I did when we reached Travnik was go to the local

22 army headquarters, Bosnian Army headquarters.

23 Q. And how did you know where to find the local Bosnian Army

24 headquarters?

25 A. I can't be totally precise, but I have absolutely no doubt we

Page 315

1 would have been told where to find it by one of the check-points that we

2 would have had to have navigated on our way into Travnik.

3 Q. And what made you certain that it was a military headquarters for

4 the Bosnian Army?

5 A. There were men in uniforms, men and women in military uniforms,

6 and there was clearly a communication centre of some kind in one of the

7 rooms. It was quite evidently the headquarters of a fighting force.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood, may I ask you to remember - you are used

9 to it - to remember to slow down.

10 MR. WOOD: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

11 Q. Can you tell the Court, Mr. Hogg, why is it that you chose to go

12 to the military headquarters as the first order of business on your

13 arrival?

14 A. Essentially, to get permission to travel and to work in the area.

15 That particular conflict was characterised by what I took to be sort of a

16 hangover, in a sense, from the days of communism, which was that everybody

17 seemed to require some kind of permission. Everybody asked to see some

18 kind of document giving one permission to be wherever one was, so it was

19 common sense that you equipped yourself with as many bits of paper as

20 possible from as many different authorities as possible.

21 Q. Can you tell the Court where in Travnik you found this military

22 headquarters?

23 A. It was in a building which I took to have been, in happier times,

24 a restaurant complex. It was by a waterfall in a fairly senior part of

25 the town. I assumed that prior to the conflict, tourist would have eaten

Page 316

1 there, and perhaps they -- I'm not sure if there was accommodation or not.

2 Q. When you got to the military headquarters, did you make contact

3 with anybody?

4 A. We met, at the headquarters, a woman officer in the Bosnian Army.

5 She was, in a sense, introduced to us as what one took to be their version

6 of a press liaison officer.

7 Q. And how was this woman dressed?

8 A. She was in military uniform.

9 Q. And what, if anything, did you ask her?

10 A. Well, I think we would have asked for an overview of the -- of the

11 situation at that time. The Serbs were just outside the town. Parts of

12 the town were under bombardment. But during the course of conversation, I

13 also asked about the whereabouts of the Mujahedin.

14 Q. And how did she respond to that?

15 A. In twofold, really. She told us that the foreign fighters were

16 living in a couple of houses next to the wooden mosque in the centre of

17 Travnik, a well-known historic mosque; but she also told us that they

18 occasionally visited the centre. And we asked, therefore, whether she

19 could make representations to them, to see whether they would give us an

20 interview.

21 Q. And how did she respond to that?

22 A. She agreed to do that.

23 Q. What did you do with the information about the fact that some

24 Mujahedin were living in a particular area in Travnik?

25 A. We went and banged on the door. There was no answer. I have

Page 317

1 every reason to believe that we would have spoken to anybody in the

2 neighbourhood. We would have banged on other doors as well, to see if

3 anybody would throw any light on the presence of these people, and I think

4 that we were actually told that they hadn't been seen for a couple of days

5 there.

6 Q. So what did you do next?

7 A. Well, events intervened, inasmuch as there was a peace conference

8 starting in London; and to mark that fact, the Serb Air Force bombed a

9 factory in Novi Travnik, which is sort of the newly-built township next to

10 Travnik.

11 Q. Did you proceed to that area?

12 A. Yes, we did. We were, for some reason, at the hospital when cars

13 began arriving with casualties, and so we went as rapidly as we could to

14 the site of the air raid. And it was there that we -- we spoke to a group

15 of Croatian police officers, and there may have been Croatian military as

16 well. And during the course of the conversation - we were there for some

17 time - they wanted us to inspect the damage.

18 They wanted us to -- to look at something that they claimed had

19 been napalm. I wasn't convinced it was napalm, but it was some kind of

20 incendiary substance. But during the latter part of the conversation, I

21 then switched it to, "What about foreign fighters?"

22 Q. And what did they tell you about foreign fighters?

23 A. I, from memory, think -- I am certain that they directed us

24 towards Zenica; but by the same token - I can't remember if it was that

25 day or the previous day - we also went to a little village called Turbe,

Page 318

1 which is on the front line between the Serbian forces and, what was at

2 that stage, both the Croat and Bosnian forces.

3 Q. Why did you go to Turbe?

4 A. Specifically, to look for the Mujahedin.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just get clarity. You said you were

6 directed to Turbe by the Croatian military?

7 THE WITNESS: No. I said the point is that the Croatian police

8 and military, I think, when I asked them about the Mujahedin, suggested

9 that I went to look in a town called Zenica. And what I said is I'm not

10 clear whether it was after that or before that that we also went to look

11 in a village called Turbe for the Mujahedin.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I'll ask you about -- I'll ask you about those places.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. First of all, Turbe. You said you went to Turbe. Did you make

17 contact with anybody there?

18 A. Yes. We arrived at -- there was intense mortar bombardment taking

19 place, and you couldn't remain in the open without considerable risk. So

20 we went into a building, and we met there two or three Bosnian military

21 personnel. And the thing that stuck in my mind was, in another part of

22 the building, there were Croat military personnel. And it was quite clear

23 that there was pretty scant communication between the two sides, even

24 though they were both on the same side against the Serbs at that stage.

25 Q. Did you inquire there about the Mujahedin?

Page 319

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And what were you told?

3 A. Well, it's a long time ago. Basically, we were told that, yes,

4 there were Mujahedin fighting on the front line, but I'm pretty sure that

5 we were told that they weren't on that particular part of the front line

6 at that particular time.

7 Q. You mentioned also that at some point you went to Zenica?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Do you recall if that was before or after?

10 A. That would have been after. That would have been after the trip

11 to Serbia.

12 Q. And when you got to Zenica, where did you go?

13 A. When we went to Zenica, we went to talk to Croats because we

14 thought that we would probably get more information from members of the

15 Croatian military.

16 Q. And why is that?

17 A. Well, because we worked on the assumption that they wouldn't have

18 been too happy about the presence of Mujahedin; whereas, we suspected that

19 had we gone to the Bosnian military, that we might have sort of been

20 stonewalled, effectively.

21 When I say "the Croat military," it was, in fact, Croat police

22 officers that we met. Now, whether there were Croat soldiers there or

23 not, I can't be sure. But it was certainly the information that I was

24 seeking, I was given by Croatian police officers.

25 Q. And what information was that?

Page 320

1 A. They confirmed that the Mujahedin were in town. They expressed a

2 great deal of disquiet about their appearance. They said that these

3 fighters were characterised by the new communications equipment they had

4 and vehicles, four-by-fours, that they had. And they said that if we

5 wanted to find them, we should visit an old people's home, which was

6 apparently their base.

7 Q. Did you proceed to that retirement home?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. And what did you find there?

10 A. I found a group of Bosnian soldiers.

11 Q. Now, when you say "Bosnian soldiers," were they local or were they

12 foreign?

13 A. These were local. These were Bosnian soldiers. When you say

14 "were they local," I was -- one or two of them seemed to be a cut above

15 the sort of ordinary militiaman. One of them, in particular, was clearly

16 very well educated, spoke very good English, and told me that they were

17 there effectively to look after the Mujahedin.

18 Q. And how were these people attired?

19 A. They were in military uniform.

20 Q. Did you see any foreign Mujahedin during your visit to this

21 retirement home?

22 A. No. We were told that they were out on the front line.

23 Q. Were you told how many Mujahedin were staying there?

24 A. I don't recall. I would -- I know it's a question I would have

25 asked. It would have been apparent to me that there wouldn't have been

Page 321

1 huge numbers, but I can't recall the precise information I was given. But

2 certainly, I was given to understand that there were -- you know, that

3 there was a body of men there.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you told that there were Mujahedin staying

5 there?



8 Q. At any time during this trip around Turbe, Zenica, did you ever

9 have occasion to stop back in Travnik?

10 A. The only time I had occasion to go back to Travnik was once I had

11 found the Mujahedin, and they said that I needed permission from the

12 military before they would speak to me.

13 Q. Okay. We'll get to that.

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. So, following your trip to Zenica and your visit to the retirement

16 home, what did you do next?

17 A. We -- we were given to understand that we might find the

18 Mujahedin. The guys in the retirement home, from memory, weren't too

19 clear themselves precisely where the Mujahedin were, on which bit of the

20 front line. We took ourselves off to the south to a town called Visoko.

21 Q. If I could interrupt just for a moment, one other thing about

22 Zenica. You said that they weren't that clear about where they were. Did

23 they give you any indication about how you could find out more

24 information?

25 A. They gave me a telephone number of a senior officer --

Page 322

1 Q. And --

2 A. -- and suggested that I call him. And I, certainly, did try to

3 call that number and didn't find the gentleman I should have been speaking

4 to, which I suspect is why we then took ourselves off to visit them.

5 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, a senior officer in which military?

6 A. It would be the Bosnian military.

7 Q. Okay. So I interrupted you. You said that after Zenica, you went

8 to Visoko?

9 A. We went to Visoko, yes.

10 Q. And where did you go when you got to Visoko?

11 A. Visoko was under bombardment at the time, and you couldn't go

12 wandering around. We parked the car and got out and then became aware of

13 a group of women at the side of the road -- at the side of the road,

14 gesturing very frantically to us to get down. We had apparently parked in

15 Sniper Alley.

16 We went -- we dived across the road and realised that we were

17 outside a hospital, and so went into the hospital to make inquiries there.

18 Q. And what did you find out when you went into the hospital?

19 A. I met a very stressed-out woman doctor down in the basement, which

20 was full of casualties, and I asked her about the Mujahedin. And through

21 my interpreter, she gave me to understand that a force of 100-plus had

22 been through very recently. I didn't actually believe her. I thought

23 that the number sounded to me very unlikely. She was very distracted, and

24 she was in the middle of a war.

25 Q. How long did you stay in Visoko?

Page 323

1 A. About an hour.

2 Q. And where did you proceed after you left Visoko?

3 A. We went back up to Zenica. We were en route, I think, to Travnik

4 when we stopped at a roadblock and, once again, asked where were the

5 Mujahedin and were directed to the village of Mehurici.

6 Q. Do you recall who it was that was maintaining this check-point?

7 A. It was kind of, you know, getting late in the afternoon. It was a

8 raggle-taggle army. I think it was local Bosnia militia, but I couldn't

9 be certain. Certainly, it was locals. It wasn't --

10 Q. At this point, you had contact with the HVO, the Bosnian Croats.

11 Were the people who were maintaining this check-point, were they Bosnian

12 Croats?

13 A. No, I don't think they were. I think they were Bosnian. I think

14 even to call them Bosnian Army would be to sort of elevate their status.

15 They were -- they were local men in a sort of -- from memory, a sort of

16 variety of bits of uniform. Yeah, from memory, they were people who were

17 simply, I guess, sort of trying to save their neighbourhood. I don't

18 know.

19 Q. So up to this point, had you had occasion to see any Mujahedin

20 throughout your trip?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So at the check-point, they told you to go to Mehurici?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. What did you do then with that information?

25 A. We drove as fast as we could to Mehurici. The reality was it was

Page 324

1 getting late in the day.

2 Q. And how long did it take you to get from the check-point to

3 Mehurici?

4 A. Not that long. It would have been about half an hour max, I

5 should think.

6 Q. And when you got to Mehurici, how did you go about confirming this

7 information that you had?

8 A. On entering the village, there was a woman or a couple of women

9 walking on the opposite side of the road. The interpreter wound down the

10 window and asked them where the Arabs were, and they pointed further up

11 the road, saying that they had passed by only a couple of minutes earlier.

12 And so we went off in hot pursuit.

13 Q. And did you come to see those Mujahedin?

14 A. Yes, we did. We rounded a corner and there were two four-by-fours

15 parked, and there were a group of men, armed, standing around. As we

16 drove up, my memory is that they looked rather surprised to see us.

17 Q. And how many men were standing in the group?

18 A. I would -- I would have thought between -- somewhere around a

19 dozen. That's what my memory tells me.

20 Q. And under those conditions, could you make any assessment about

21 the makeup, the composition of that group?

22 A. I made a very rapid assessment. I recognised that there were at

23 least two men there who I took to be from the Bosnian Army. They were in

24 military uniform. The others I instantly regarded as Mujahedin.

25 In Afghanistan, I had had the misfortune to come across the Arab

Page 325

1 Mujahedin there, and this was -- you know, this was a reenactment of that,

2 if you like.

3 Q. And could you determine what, precisely, they were doing in the

4 group?

5 A. No. I think from memory, I think they were washing their jeeps,

6 but I can't be --

7 Q. And could you describe the jeeps?

8 A. No, I couldn't. They were newish-looking. They weren't military.

9 Q. So at this point what did you do next?

10 A. I got out and I walked towards them, and in my best BBC voice I

11 said, "Does anybody here speak English?"

12 Q. And what do you mean by your best BBC voice?

13 A. Well, I wanted to sound authoritative and I wanted to sound very

14 plausible, and I wanted to convey the impression of being a thoroughly

15 professional journalist, which in those sort of circumstances is basically

16 your one defence.

17 Q. Did you receive any response to your question, "Does anybody here

18 speak English?"

19 A. Well, much to my surprise, a gentleman that I later learned to be

20 Abdel Aziz, stepped forward and said, "Yes, I do. Who are you and what do

21 you want?"

22 Q. And how did you come to know that this person was Abdel Aziz?

23 A. He told me that later.

24 Q. Could you describe him?

25 A. He was dressed in military-style garb. It wasn't a uniform, as

Page 326

1 such. There was certainly camouflage. I think it was a camouflaged

2 jacket and trousers. His hair was red, and from my experience in

3 Afghanistan I took that to mean that he had henna'ed his hair and his

4 beard in preparation for death.

5 MR. WOOD: Could I have the Exhibit P06157, page 4, shown to the

6 witness.

7 For the record, it's page 4 of the exhibit that I need. The ERN

8 number, if that will help, is 0471-7266.

9 For the record, I see that -- I guess I should ask the witness.

10 Q. Do you see a photograph on the screen before you, sir?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And do you recognise the person depicted in that photograph?

13 A. That's Abdel Aziz.

14 Q. This is the person you spoke with on that day?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So did you have a conversation with Mr. Aziz?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And what, if anything, did you ask him?

19 A. I asked him if he would give me an interview.

20 Q. And what did he say?

21 A. He said that provided I got permission from the Bosnian Army, that

22 he would grant me that interview.

23 Q. What did you do with this information?

24 A. It was quite clear that there was no point pressing him. The

25 thing that we needed with utmost urgency was to get the necessary

Page 327

1 permission. I established with him that if we went to Travnik, to the

2 military command, and got that permission, that he wouldn't have

3 disappeared by the time we got back. As I said, it was late in the day.

4 There was no way that we were going to get back there that night. And so

5 I established with him that if I returned early the following morning with

6 the relevant permission, that he would be there, able to give me an

7 interview.

8 Q. After he assured you of that, what did you do next?

9 A. We went immediately to Travnik.

10 Q. And where in Travnik did you go?

11 A. We went to the military command.

12 Q. And what did you do when you got to the military command?

13 A. I sent the interpreter in to get the necessary permission.

14 Q. And how long was she inside?

15 A. About ten minutes.

16 Q. And what happened after she came back out?

17 A. She came out waving a piece of paper, and we were absolutely

18 elated, and we then drove back to Kiseljak, which is where we had been

19 staying because that was the one place in Central Bosnia that we had

20 communications.

21 Q. Now, this piece of paper, did you examine it?

22 A. Yes, I would have, yeah.

23 Q. And what can you tell me about it --

24 A. It was --

25 Q. -- or tell the Court about it? I'm sorry.

Page 328

1 A. It was an official-looking document, but I couldn't read what it

2 actually said precisely because I didn't speak the language. But I was

3 satisfied that it looked sufficient to put Mr. Aziz's mind at rest.

4 Q. What language was it written in, to your knowledge?

5 A. It was written in the local language, which in those days -- I

6 suppose you could call it Bosnian there.

7 Q. And were there any other markings on the permission?

8 A. There would have been a stamp, because that would have given it

9 authenticity. There was probably a signature, but it's a long time ago

10 and I can't remember absolutely precisely what was there and what wasn't.

11 Q. So how long were you in Kiseljak?

12 A. We spent the night in Kiseljak.

13 Q. And what time did you leave in the morning?

14 A. Very early. I think we left at about 7.00.

15 Q. And where did you go?

16 A. We went straight back to Mehurici.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please make pauses

18 between questions and answer. Thank you.

19 MR. WOOD: Again, I'm sorry.

20 Q. When you got to Mehurici, where did you go within the town?

21 A. We knew, because I think that that's where we had last seen

22 Mr. Aziz, that he was based in what we took to be a school. So we went

23 immediately -- on the main road, we went immediately to that school, and I

24 spoke to somebody outside who, from memory, was clearly on guard duty of

25 some kind, and asked that person to tell Mr. Aziz that we had got the

Page 329

1 necessary permission and, yeah, we were at his -- waiting at his disposal.

2 Q. And did Mr. Aziz appear?

3 A. Yeah. He didn't appear immediately. There was a coffee bar

4 opposite, and we -- because we were attracting considerable attention at

5 that time, we decided to put ourselves in the coffee bar and wait for

6 him. And so we spent a very tense half hour or so in there until he

7 emerged.

8 Q. And what happened after he came out?

9 A. I immediately went up to him and showed him the piece of paper and

10 said that I had the necessary permission. And I asked him whether he

11 would give me the interview.

12 Q. What did you do with the permission, the paper that you had been

13 given?

14 A. I showed it to him, and I'm afraid that my memory is a blank. I

15 don't know whether he retained it or whether he gave it back. He

16 certainly looked at it.

17 Q. And what did he say or do after he examined the paper that you had

18 obtained from the Travnik?

19 A. He told us to follow him, and he climbed into a vehicle with two

20 bodyguards and started driving off up the road, and we followed behind.

21 Q. And these bodyguards, could you describe their appearance?

22 A. They were not wearing a uniform, as such; in other words, there

23 wasn't any insignia or anything like that. They were both armed with

24 Klashnikovs. From memory, one, if not both, seemed to be dressed in sort

25 of a dark track suit of some description.

Page 330

1 Q. Could you determine where they appeared to be from?

2 A. No. I was curious about that. I looked at one of them, and he

3 looked to me to be, you know, possibly Kurdish. They clearly weren't

4 Bosnian, but neither were they -- neither did they appear to be Arab.

5 They -- they seemed very capable, very sort of confident, but I wasn't

6 able to determine where they came from.

7 Q. You mentioned then you went about a half a mile to a field?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. And what happened when you arrived at the field?

10 A. We stopped behind their vehicle, and Mr. Aziz got out and said

11 that he would conduct the interview on some rocks that were in the middle

12 of the field. And I was immediately struck by the choice of setting, as

13 it was almost the same setting as the -- as that chosen by one of

14 Afghanistan's warlords, Hekmatiar, when I interviewed him months earlier.

15 Q. What seemed to be so common between those two incidents?

16 A. It was kind of a bucolic scene. It was a stream and trees and

17 meadows. It was almost sort of a degree of tranquility. I assumed it

18 probably was because their prophet had given sermons or something similar

19 in similar surroundings, so I wasn't sure. I just was struck by the

20 similarity.

21 Q. So where was your photographer at this time?

22 A. With me.

23 Q. And was the interpreter still with you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And where did she sit at that time?

Page 331

1 A. I wanted to put Mr. Aziz totally at his ease, and so -- and I knew

2 that there were issues over women, and so I asked him where he would like

3 the photographer to sit -- sorry. I asked him where he would like the

4 interpreter to sit, and he gestured to some rocks about 50 yards away.

5 Q. So you sat to take this interview with him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And where were you sitting in relation to Mr. Aziz?

8 A. Well, I suppose about four or five feet away on the rocks, facing

9 him.

10 Q. And how did you go about memorialising this interview?

11 A. I took a shorthand note, but I also taped. I pulled out my small

12 tape-recorder.

13 Q. And where was the tape-recorder sitting in relation to the two of

14 you?

15 A. On the rocks between us.

16 MR. WOOD: Could I have the witness shown Exhibit P01010, which

17 I'll also explain is Exhibit P02953. And for the benefit of the Court and

18 for the Defence, P02953 is the translation of P01010.

19 Q. So, Mr. Hogg, what do you see on the screen before you?

20 A. I see, on the right-hand side, the English language transcript of

21 my interview; and, on the left-hand side, the Bosnian transcript.

22 MR. WOOD: And, so, for the transcript on the right, if I could

23 have page 2 shown to the witness.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Hogg, have you had occasion to see this transcript today?

25 A. Yes, I have.

Page 332

1 Q. And were you able to confirm that this is a true and accurate

2 transcript of the tape --

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. -- of the interview you took with Mr. Aziz?

5 A. Yes, I was, yeah.

6 Q. I want to draw your attention to page 2, which also bears the ERN

7 0081-8540. There's some handwritten notations on that?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Do you recognise those?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what are those notations?

12 A. They are notations I made when I was -- gave evidence in a

13 previous trial here and were shown the transcript then, and determined

14 that it contained a couple of transcription errors.

15 Q. So this is a true and accurate copy of the document you were shown

16 before and made markings on?

17 A. Yeah.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just find out, while we're on the

19 markings, what does the bracket around "Paroba" mean?

20 THE WITNESS: There is, to my knowledge, no such place as Paroba.

21 I couldn't remember what I had said. I said something like from Visoko

22 around to, I think, it was Carola, not "Paroba." Paroba doesn't exist,

23 but I couldn't remember what the correct name was that should replace it.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Hogg.

25 MR. WOOD:

Page 333

1 Q. Also today, Mr. Hogg, you had a chance to hear an audiotape; is

2 that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And were you able to determine that that was a true and accurate

5 recording of the interview that you had been given?

6 A. Absolutely, yeah.

7 Q. I guess I'll ask, then, on what media -- or on what medium was the

8 interview recorded?

9 A. A small pocket tape-recorder.

10 Q. And what did you do with that tape-recorder, the tape, the

11 cassette itself?

12 A. I retained that tape, as I considered it had historic value, if

13 nothing else. Unfortunately, the first minute or so sometime afterwards

14 was erased, but the substance of the interview still remained.

15 Q. At any time, did you hand that tape over to the ICTY?

16 A. Yes, I did, yeah.

17 MR. WOOD: At this time, Your Honour, I'd like for that tape to be

18 played. For the record, that is Exhibit 02961. And for the Court's

19 benefit, and for the benefit of Defence as well, we have synchronised the

20 transcript, which Mr. Hogg has authenticated as his, to track along with

21 the audio portion. So, at this time, I would like the tape to be played.

22 And also one more thing, Your Honour. The first 30 seconds or so

23 are a little bit garbled, and the recorded portion ends at about 30

24 minutes.

25 [Audiotape played]

Page 334

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood, would this be a convenient point?

2 MR. WOOD: Yes, Your Honour. I was about to suggest that.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Shall we come back at quarter past 4.00?

5 MR. WOOD: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourns.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.


10 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. So, Mr. Hogg, we've heard the audiotape.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you confirm that that is a true and accurate recording of the

14 tape you took?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The interview with Abdel Aziz?

17 A. That's right.

18 MR. WOOD: At this time, the Prosecutor would like to tender into

19 evidence that audiotape, which is right now marked P02961.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any objections, Madam Vidovic?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 The audiotape is then admitted into evidence, and May it please be

24 given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 51.

Page 335

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do we apply a letter to the Prosecution exhibits?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I was instructed and advised by the

4 legal staff that we're going to adopt a continuous numbering, without

5 prefixing it with either a Prosecution or Defence or a Chamber letter, so

6 we would just number it as we go along.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Wood, sorry, you may proceed.

10 MR. WOOD: That's okay, Your Honour. I'll just catch up right now

11 with the other two that I have not yet tendered, and then I will continue

12 very briefly.

13 For the record, the Prosecution does tender Exhibit P01010, which

14 is the English transcript that has been marked by the witness.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 52.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And I guess you don't have

17 any objection, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then that's Exhibit 52.

20 MR. WOOD: And as I understand it, Your Honour, the B/C/S

21 translation of that transcript is attached to that exhibit. I don't know

22 if the Registrar would like to give that another number. It's been marked

23 right now P02953.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the Registrar is shaking his head to indicate

25 that he does not wish to do so, so I guess it will be 52A and B.

Page 336

1 THE REGISTRAR: Correct, Your Honour.

2 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MR. WOOD: And, finally, the Prosecution tenders P06157, which is

5 the photograph.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's the photograph?

7 MR. WOOD: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it P06157 or P16507.

9 MR. WOOD: P06157. Let me make sure that's accurate. P06157.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't think that's how it was -- it appeared on

11 the transcript when it was shown on the screen.

12 MR. WOOD: To the extent that I misspoke when I said the name

13 earlier, Your Honour, I can confirm that it is P06157; and to the extent

14 that the transcript is wrong in that regard, I would ask that it be

15 corrected.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. So be it.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registrar wants to know whether you're

19 tendering the entire booklet or just the one photograph. We are aware of

20 only one photograph.

21 MR. WOOD: It's just the one photograph that was shown to the

22 witness today.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It will be the one

24 photograph. Thank you very much.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 53.

Page 337

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And, again, I assume, Madam

2 Vidovic?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Wood.

5 MR. WOOD: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P01012.

6 Q. Mr. Hogg, can you describe what you see on the screen before you?

7 A. I see a copy of the "Sunday Times" story which I wrote, which

8 appeared at the end of August in 1992.

9 Q. Now, did you have a chance to look at that earlier today?

10 A. Yes, I did, yeah.

11 Q. And can you confirm that that's a true and accurate record of the

12 story that appeared in "The Sunday Times" that you wrote?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. And can you identify the person in the photograph?

15 A. That's Abdel Aziz.

16 Q. And can you tell us when that photograph was taken?

17 A. During -- well, as the interview was being conducted.

18 MR. WOOD: The Prosecution tenders P01012.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, no objection.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 May Exhibit P01012, please, be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 54.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MR. WOOD: Next, I'd like to show the witness two video segments.

Page 338

1 These are from P06001.

2 [Videotape played]

3 Q. Mr. Hogg, can you see that video in front of you?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Can you identify the person holding the megaphone?

6 A. That would appear to be Abdel Aziz, yeah.

7 MR. WOOD: And if I could have clip 2 shown.

8 [Videotape played]

9 Q. Mr. Hogg, do you see the video in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can you identify the person?

12 A. That's Abdel Aziz, yes.

13 Q. For the record, the person who's holding the megaphone. Okay.

14 The State -- I'm sorry, the Prosecution tenders Exhibit P06001.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, any objection?

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear everybody if the

17 video is being shown at the same time people are talking. Sorry about

18 that.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are very sorry, interpreters. What the question

20 was, for the interpreters' purposes, was that the Prosecution was

21 tendering this picture that you see on the clip into evidence as an

22 exhibit. Do you hear that now?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And that Madam Vidovic has

25 said she had no objection to it being tendered as an exhibit.

Page 339

1 It is accordingly admitted into evidence, and may it please be

2 given an exhibit number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 55.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Yes, Mr. Wood.

6 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Could the witness be shown Exhibit P01348.

8 Q. Could you describe what you see on the screen in front of you,

9 Mr. Hogg?

10 A. I see a story -- the content of a story that I wrote in the middle

11 of 1993.

12 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that earlier today?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. And can you confirm that that is a story that fell under your name

15 that you wrote?

16 A. I can.

17 MR. WOOD: The Prosecution tenders Exhibit P01348.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any objection, Madam Vidovic?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Exhibit P01348 is admitted

21 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 56.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. WOOD: Finally, if the exhibit -- I'm sorry. If the witness

25 could be shown Exhibit P01682 [Realtime transcript read in error

Page 340

1 "P01632"].

2 Q. Mr. Hogg, can you describe what you see on the screen in front of

3 you?

4 A. I see the content of the story that I wrote in January 1994.

5 Q. And have you had a chance to look at this earlier today?

6 A. Yes, I have, yeah.

7 Q. And were you able to confirm that this is the story that you

8 wrote?

9 A. I can confirm that, yeah.

10 MR. WOOD: The Prosecution tenders P01682.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's P01682, not 32?

12 MR. WOOD: 82, yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 Any objection, Madam Vidovic?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit P01682 is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 57.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask, where was this published?

21 THE WITNESS: In "The Sunday Times."

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

23 MR. WOOD: The Prosecution has nothing further for this witness,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

Page 341

1 Madam Vidovic, the witness is yours.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on behalf of the

3 Defence team of General Delic, the cross-examination shall be conducted by

4 my colleague, Nicholas Robson.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Mr. Robson.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

8 MR. ROBSON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

9 Mr. Hogg.

10 My name is Nicholas Robson, and I'll be asking you some questions

11 on behalf of the Defence this afternoon.

12 Q. So, Mr. Hogg, previously you were a journalist with "The Sunday

13 Times." That's --

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. -- a famous British newspaper, and I think that was from about

16 1980?

17 A. I started working on a part-time basis in 1980, I became a member

18 of the staff in 1984, and I left the paper ten years later.

19 Q. And in 1991, you took over as the Middle East correspondent of

20 that paper?

21 A. That's right, yes.

22 Q. Now, as part of that role, you travelled to many countries.

23 You've mentioned some of them today.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Afghanistan, Algeria, Kurdistan, Israel. You've mentioned that

Page 342

1 you encountered the Mujahedin in two of those countries: Afghanistan and

2 Algeria. Is that correct?

3 A. I didn't encounter the Mujahedin in Algeria. I -- in covering the

4 beginnings of the civil war there, I was told by numerous sources that the

5 instigators for much of the conflict were people who had come back from

6 the Afghan conflict. But I didn't come face to face with any Mujahedin in

7 Algeria.

8 Q. I see.

9 A. I did in Afghanistan.

10 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that you are familiar with the concept of

11 the Mujahedin?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In other words, foreign fighters or "holy warriors" travelling to

14 another country to conduct Jihad?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. Now, am I right in saying, in Afghanistan, you spent time with the

17 Mujahedin?

18 A. What I would do is distinguish between the Afghan Mujahedin, who I

19 did indeed spend time with, I would distinguish them between the Arab

20 Mujahedin, who formed a faction there. And as I mentioned earlier, I had,

21 what I would term, the misfortune to come across them in the fall of a

22 city called Gardez, and they were very hostile to my presence there. And

23 had it not been for the fact that I was with Afghan Mujahedin, I suspect

24 that I wouldn't be sitting here today.

25 Q. In respect of the Afghan Mujahedin that you met, am I correct in

Page 343

1 understanding that you met one of Afghanistan's warlords, Hehmatiar?

2 A. Hehmatiar.

3 Q. Hehmatiar?

4 A. Hehmatiar, yeah.

5 Q. And I think it is right to say that on once occasion whilst you

6 were in Afghanistan, you even disguised yourself as a Mujahedin?

7 A. That's how I got into Afghanistan, yeah.

8 Q. Did you do that in order to collect more information about them?

9 A. No. I had -- I tried -- I had been sent to Afghanistan in 1989,

10 when the Soviets withdrew. And I had been, on arrival, arrested at the

11 airport and held overnight and deported and on the first plane out. So

12 when several years later I had to go back to Afghanistan, I determined not

13 to go by air. I thought my chances of reaching Kabul would be better by

14 going over land.

15 Q. I see. It's right to say you must have developed a good level of

16 knowledge about the Mujahedin?

17 A. Yeah.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel and the witness kindly pause

19 between question and answer.


21 Q. You knew how they functioned?

22 A. Yeah, I think that would be fair to say.

23 Q. And you gained an idea of how the Arab Mujahedin were financed?

24 A. I gained the strong impression that they didn't want very much in

25 the way of equipment in Afghanistan. Their brand-new Walkie-Talkies were

Page 344

1 rather different to what I had seen the Afghan fighters use.

2 Q. You gained the impression that the Arab Mujahedin were well

3 equipped?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. And you gained an insight about their ideas and goals; is that

6 fair?

7 A. I didn't gain it from them. I gained it from -- from other people

8 there. It was quite clear they were there fighting Jihad. It was quite

9 clear that they had a considerable reputation for bravery. It was also

10 quite clear to me that they seemed to be a law unto themselves, to the

11 extent that I did ask Afghan Mujahedin what they would do with them after

12 a government had been established.

13 Q. Did they give you an answer to that?

14 A. Yes. The answer I was given was that they would have to obey the

15 laws of the country; otherwise, they would be told to go.

16 Q. So you said they were there fighting Jihad. Would you agree that

17 their goal was to conduct holy war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you agree that not all the Mujahedin had the same approach

20 to religion, so there would be differences amongst them; some would be

21 Wuhabi, you would have Salifi, Shiite; is that right?

22 A. I would presume that's correct, yeah.

23 Q. Is it right that those religion differences, as far as you can

24 tell us, were one of the reasons why there were divisions amongst the

25 Mujahedin in Afghanistan?

Page 345

1 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that with any degree of assurance.

2 I -- you know, the Arabs that I saw there were, I would have thought,

3 probably Sunni, and the Afghan Mujahedin were Sunni as well, so --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. If I may interrupt, Mr. Wood is on his

5 feet.

6 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.

7 MR. WOOD: Just for the sake of clarity, Your Honour, it might be

8 helpful to the Trial Chamber to get some clarification about, on this line

9 of questioning, is Mr. Hogg speaking of Afghan Mujahedin or is he speaking

10 of the Mujahedin in Bosnia. I'm following the transcript, and I think

11 that might not be that clear. And so on those grounds, I do objection.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And while you clarify that, if it is the Afghan

13 Mujahedin, is it the Afghan Mujahedin and not the Arab Mujahedin that he's

14 talking about.

15 MR. ROBSON: Mr. Hogg, perhaps you could help us with that. I'm

16 just looking at the transcript, and I think that your last answer was

17 perhaps dealing with that very point.

18 Q. Is it correct you were saying that the Afghan Mujahedin were

19 Sunni?

20 A. Yeah. And the Arab Mujahedin in Afghanistan, I would assume to

21 have been Sunni as well. There may have been divisions, but I wasn't

22 aware of those divisions.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, does that clarify the point

24 sufficiently?

25 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour, and Defence.

Page 346

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It does also to me. Thank you very much.

2 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Hogg, I'd like to show you our first exhibit, if I may. It's

4 D15.

5 MR. HOGG: If we can perhaps get that up on the screen, and the

6 relevant page of that document is the third page of that document.

7 Please, if we could have a close-up on the first paragraph just

8 straight under: "Jihad comes to Bosnia."

9 Q. If I could read that passage to you, Mr. Hogg, it says: "The

10 Charter of Islamic Struggle. We, as Muslims, have been given the task to

11 realise the supremacy of the law of God on earth and of not allowing that

12 any group on earth govern without the law of God. We fight whoever

13 refuses that and refuses obedience to God.

14 "The fight is imposed on us to remove the apostate ruler from the

15 land of Islam, to fight those who support them and their laws, to impose

16 the caliphate, to revenge Palestine, Spain, the Balkans, the Islamic

17 Republics in Russia, and to free the Muslim prisoners. Our enemies are

18 Christians, Jews, apostates, those who adore the cow and fire, our secular

19 rulers that replace the laws of Islam, and hypocrites.

20 "Jihad has been introduced to spread God's religion and

21 to destroy any ruler that is not subject to the adoration of God.

22 Fighting the infidels has the purpose of exalting the revelation God."

23 That is a document found by the Italian police at the Islamic

24 Cultural Institute, ICI, in Milan. And, perhaps, before I ask my quest, I

25 should also point out that this exhibit is an excerpt from the book

Page 347

1 "Al-Qaeda's Jihad in Europe: The Afghan Bosnia Network." That's a book

2 by the Prosecution's expert witness, Evan Coleman.

3 My question, Mr. Hogg, is: Would you agree that the principles

4 espoused in that document found in Milan reflect the principles of the

5 Mujahedin that you met in Afghanistan?

6 A. I think undoubtedly, yeah, reflect the principles of the Arab

7 Mujahedin that I met in Afghanistan. The Afghan Mujahedin, you know,

8 deeply religious though they were, I couldn't say that they would

9 necessarily subscribe to that kind of totalitarian vision.

10 MR. ROBSON: Indeed. Thank you for making that distinction.

11 Your Honour, could I please tender that document into evidence?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.

13 MR. WOOD: Does Defence speak of the entire book or just this

14 excerpt?

15 MR. ROBSON: It's just this excerpt, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just the excerpt, Mr. Wood.

17 MR. WOOD: No objection, Your Honour. No objection.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

19 Exhibit D15 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

20 exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 58.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Yes, Mr. Robson.


25 Q. Turning to your interview with Mr. Aziz, he explained to you that

Page 348

1 the Mujahedin fighters were coming to Bosnia to conduct Jihad; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He told you about some of the countries that the fighters had come

5 from. You mentioned England and Germany?

6 A. Mmm-hmm.

7 Q. And Abdel Aziz told you that he himself had carried out Jihad in

8 Afghanistan, the Philippines, Kashmir, and Africa; is that so?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Now, from what you observed in Bosnia, would you agree with me

11 that the Mujahedin that came from Afghanistan and other places brought

12 those ideas that we just discussed a moment ago with them to Bosnia?

13 A. I think, yes, I'd say so.

14 Q. During your interview with Abdel Aziz, it's right that he

15 explained to you certain rules of behaviour of the Mujahedin, such as

16 Shaddah and Dawa; is that so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As to Shaddah, you said that this means being killed in battle for

19 Islam?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Concerning Dawa, he explained to you that it was the duty of the

22 Mujahedin to give the Bosnian people, to use his words, what is the

23 correct Islam?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He also discussed finances, and he explained to you that the

Page 349

1 Mujahedin received financial support from many Islamic countries; is that

2 so?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. It was a little unclear, but as I understood it, he also indicated

5 that they were receiving financial support from individuals as well as

6 governments. Is that right?

7 A. I would have to re-examine the transcript. I wouldn't argue that

8 at all. I don't recollect him really saying that they were receiving help

9 from governments. My --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: My recollection is that he actually said they don't

11 receive from governments; they only receive from individuals.

12 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.


15 Q. If I can refer again to the last exhibit just entered, Exhibit 58,

16 this time we were -- I beg your pardon. What I should say, if I could

17 refer to Defence document D15, this is another excerpt from the Evan

18 Kohlmann book. It's at page 4 of that document.

19 MR. ROBSON: Now, we're interested in the bottom quarter of that

20 page, if we could perhaps get a close-up of that. Thank you.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel kindly be asked to slow down

22 when reading for interpretation.

23 MR. ROBSON: Certainly.

24 Q. Mr. Hogg, if I can read to you a passage from that final

25 paragraph. It states, just four lines down from the -- the start

Page 350

1 beginning a bit after "Witnessing." It says: "Abu Abdel Aziz had no

2 allusions about his mission in Bosnia. Though he spent part of his time

3 encouraging Dawa, Islamic missionary work, he cautioned, 'We are not here

4 to bring supplies like food and medicine. There are lots of organisations

5 that can do that. We bring men.' Upon his arrival, the Mujahedin

6 leadership in Bosnia and Afghanistan designated Sheikh Abu Abdel Aziz as

7 the first emir, or commander-in-chief, of the Bosnian Arab Afghans. The

8 new emir quickly established his first headquarters at the Mehurici

9 training camp near the central Bosnian town of Travnik."

10 Now, Mr. Hogg, do you agree from that excerpt that you can

11 conclude that the Mujahedin leadership in Afghanistan, as well as Bosnia,

12 took the decision to designate Aziz as their commander-in-chief?

13 A. Yeah, I accept that's what it says on the page. I have no way of

14 knowing how true that is.

15 Q. And can you confirm for us, from your experiences, that it was

16 usual practice, if you like, for the Mujahedin leadership to appoint the

17 commander; is that something you've come across?

18 A. I couldn't confirm that, I'm afraid. I just have no way of

19 knowing that.

20 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

21 Your Honour, could I tender that document, that page, into

22 evidence?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.

24 MR. WOOD: Well, Your Honour, based on what the witness has said,

25 he says he can't accept -- he can accept that that's what's written on the

Page 351

1 page, but he can't confirm the truth of that. And for that reason, the

2 Prosecution does object to the admission of this into evidence. I don't

3 believe it's properly authenticated at this point or the proper context

4 has been given it.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, perhaps, if I could ask a further

7 question.

8 Well, first of all, Your Honour, just to point out that the book

9 was written by the Prosecution's expert, Evan Kohlmann. And the second

10 point I would make, Your Honour, is the that Defence will be adducing

11 evidence in due course that pertains to this matter to make the

12 connection; and if necessary, I can ask the witness a further question

13 that may perhaps clarify the probity of this evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you ask the witness the question,

15 Mr. Robson, if I may just ask, you're saying that Mr. Kohlmann is a

16 Prosecution expert witness?

17 MR. ROBSON: That's correct.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you're saying the excerpt comes from his book?

19 MR. ROBSON: Correct, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you going to be calling Mr. Kohlmann as a

21 witness yourself, too?

22 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, he's a Prosecution witness, and it

23 remains to be seen whether he'll be called by the Prosecution, but he's

24 certainly a witness that's interesting to the Defence.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true. You said you're going to call another

Page 352

1 witness who can testify to the probity of the document. Is that

2 Mr. Kohlmann or is it somebody else?

3 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, What we would seek to do is call

4 furthers witnesses that discuss the matters mentioned in excerpts that I

5 have just read out. So if perhaps the purpose of that evidence is not

6 clear to you at the moment, it will do so in due course, we hope.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would it be inconvenient to the Defence if I

8 suggested that maybe you wait for Mr. Kohlmann to come; and when you do

9 cross-examine him, you tender that exhibit through him? He's the author?

10 MR. ROBSON: Indeed he is, he is. Your Honour, that's something

11 that certainly the Defence could do. Perhaps, if I could ask a further

12 question, then --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may ask your question.

14 MR. ROBSON: It's of Mr. Hogg.

15 Q. What I would just ask Mr. Hogg is that: In the excerpt that I

16 read out, it referred to Sheikh Abu Abdel Aziz as being the first emir,

17 and he established his first headquarters in Mehurici. Can you confirm,

18 Mr. Hogg, that the person that you spoke to was indeed Abu Abdel Aziz, and

19 you interviewed him very close to Mehurici?

20 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

21 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I don't know if --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know what that has to do with the document.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we would be satisfied for perhaps it to

24 be marked for identification purposes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: For identification.

Page 353

1 MR. ROBSON: And we can deal with it at a later stage.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood, any objection to that?

3 MR. WOOD: Not at this time, Your Honour, no.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 What is this? This is page 4 of Exhibit 58. It will be marked

6 for identification, and may it please be given a number for

7 identification?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

9 identification, MFI, as number 59.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Hogg, if we could turn to the article that you wrote and was

13 published on the 30th of August, 1992, in "The Sunday Times." It's

14 Prosecution Exhibit 54.

15 MR. ROBSON: Now, if I can refer the Court's attention to the

16 third column, it's the paragraph -- it's about the third paragraph down --

17 I beg your pardon. If we could move up from that section. We have it

18 there. Okay.

19 Q. Mr. Hogg, I'd like to refer your attention to the paragraph that

20 begins: "The leader of the Mujahedin." And if I could read that section

21 to you, it states as follows --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slowly.


24 -- "The leader of the Mujahedin in Bosnia, Abu Abdel Aziz, said

25 his men had no intention of interfering in Bosnia's internal politics."

Page 354

1 Now, Mr. Hogg, from what you knew about the Mujahedin, is it not

2 correct that it would be almost impossible for them to conduct holy war

3 and remain clear of local politics? Would you agree?

4 A. I would agree with that, yeah.

5 Q. And it's true to say that wherever the Mujahedin fought, their aim

6 was to create an Islamic state?

7 A. I would agree with that as well.

8 Q. Now, in preparing this article, you spoke to various people; and

9 in your evidence earlier today, you told us about the occasion when you

10 spoke to some men, military people, outside of the retirement home in

11 Zenica?

12 A. It was actually inside the retirement home. We were sitting in

13 there, yeah.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, it's right, isn't it, that when you spoke to

15 them, to those men, you recorded details in a notebook that you had with

16 you?

17 A. That's correct.

18 MR. ROBSON: If I could refer the witness to the notebook, it's

19 Defence document D14, and the page we're interested in is page 27.

20 THE WITNESS: Right.


22 Q. So, okay. Although it's 27 for the purposes of the document, it's

23 actually page 28 of the notebook that we're interested in, and it's that

24 very last piece of text: "We are fighting ..."

25 A. Yeah.

Page 355

1 Q. If I can just read out that quotation, one of them told you: "We

2 are fighting for our lives and the lives of our children. What Islamic

3 republic." [Realtime transcript read in error "?"]

4 Is it correct, Mr. Hogg, that that was said to you in response to

5 a question you put to the men?

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 Q. Would you agree it's clear from their words that the main concern

8 of these men was simple survival and protection. They were not interested

9 in fighting to create an Islamic state, were they?

10 A. I would agree with that, yeah.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. Mr. Robson --

12 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- In the transcript, the last word appears with a

14 question mark, "What Islamic republic?" I don't see the question a

15 question mark in the notebook; and, indeed, I wonder, what does that last

16 three words really mean? Could you clarify, Mr. Hogg?

17 THE WITNESS: I think I would undoubtedly have tried to gauge from

18 those soldiers that I was interviewing what their view was of the claim

19 that Izetbegovic wanted to establish an Islamic republic in Bosnia. That

20 was a claim that was made by the Serb aggressors, and it was, you know,

21 something that I would undoubtedly have asked, particularly because of

22 their relationship with the Mujahedin, who I would have been under no

23 doubt were, in truth, hopeful of advancing the cause of an Islamic

24 republic.

25 I would have asked these soldiers, you know, "What are your

Page 356

1 views?" Is there -- are they here fighting for an Islamic republic or

2 what? And if you look at the paragraph above, it says they were fighting

3 for Izetbegovic's vision of a civilian government in Bosnia.

4 I'm afraid it's 15 years and I can't remember, with absolute

5 precision, the questions that I asked, but I know that I would have asked

6 them. You've got the Mujahedin here. Is this part of an attempt to

7 establish an Islamic republic, and that would have been the reply, "What

8 Islamic republic. We're fighting for our lives."

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: So did you have a distinction between different

10 kinds of Islamic republics in mind? And if so, just an Islamic republic,

11 full stop?


13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not a question of whether it would be Sunni or

14 Shiite or any other kind of --

15 THE WITNESS: No, just an Islamic republic.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you carry on, Mr. Robson, let me just clear

17 up a little work in my mind.

18 MR. ROBSON: Certainly.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: These men you were interviewing were Bosniak

20 soldiers?

21 THE WITNESS: That's right.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you did write an article from this

23 interview.

24 THE WITNESS: No. This interview was when I was trying to find

25 the Mujahedin. When I found Abdel Aziz, the article that I wrote was

Page 357

1 based purely on what he had told me.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you never wrote an article --

3 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- residing from these notes?

5 THE WITNESS: I think, from these notes, there was maybe one

6 paragraph that appeared in the final article, which was to do with these

7 men are, you know, the bravest of the brave. They walk where others

8 crawl. I think that comment came from talking to these Bosnian soldiers.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if you look at that paragraph, would that

10 paragraph not jog your memory as to the context within which this little

11 statement was made?

12 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, I'm pretty clear about the context.

13 It's just the precise wording that I can't recall.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it wouldn't jog your memory about the precise

15 wording, either?

16 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid it wouldn't, not after this passage of

17 time.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We can't take it any further.

19 Carry on.


21 Q. So it's clear, then, Mr. Hogg, that Abdel Aziz and his Mujahedin

22 would have had very different goals to those young men that you spoke to

23 at the retirement home?

24 A. I think that that is -- that is absolutely correct to say. When I

25 interviewed Abdel Aziz and he gave off this image of being a sort of

Page 358

1 perfectly reasonable, helpful human being, I didn't buy into that,

2 necessarily.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hogg, I'd like to refer you to a different part of

4 your notebook. This is page 19, page 19 of the document as well. And I

5 should say that this part of your notebook concerns the different units

6 that you encountered in the field.

7 A. Right, yeah.

8 MR. ROBSON: So, perhaps, if we could have as much as possible of

9 page 19 on the screen, and we're interested in about halfway down that

10 page.

11 I should say at the very top of the document we can see it's

12 marked pages 19 and 20, so it's page 19.

13 If we can perhaps --

14 Q. Now, Mr. Hogg, about halfway down, in the middle of the screen, we

15 can see there -- it's very difficult to see what you're writing,

16 particularly, but we can make out some words?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. And we can make out the words: "HVO, Bosnian forces, TO, and

19 HOS"?

20 A. Mmm-hmm.

21 Q. Underneath that, we can see: "Bosnian Army." And if we look just

22 at the bottom of the page there, just above the third line from bottom, we

23 can see the words: "Muslim Defence Forces"?

24 A. Yeah.

25 MR. ROBSON: Similarly, if we go over onto page 20, about halfway

Page 359

1 down that page, if we can move over to the following page. Thank you.

2 Q. Just below the halfway stage, again, a little hard to see, but we

3 can make out there the words -- it says: "200 MOS soldiers," M-O-S

4 soldiers. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Hogg, at the time that you made these notes, would you

7 agree that you had very little or no knowledge about the structure of the

8 Bosnian Army?

9 A. I had the barest knowledge about the structure of the Bosnian

10 Army.

11 Q. And it follows from that that you must have had little or no

12 understanding about the system of control in the Bosnian Army?

13 A. I would say that's absolutely correct.

14 Q. However, from your observations and who you spoke to, you were --

15 although you knew little or nothing about the army's structure, you did

16 note the presence of different military units in Central Bosnia?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. And there, in the notebook, we can note where you've identified

19 those different units?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. When you interviewed Abdel Aziz, he didn't tell you very much

22 about the different units in Central Bosnia, did he?

23 A. No, he didn't.

24 Q. But do you recall, he did mention the name of a unit, Muslim

25 Forces, and the Mujahedin's ties with them; is that right?

Page 360

1 A. Yeah, I'm not -- wouldn't necessarily think he was referring to a

2 specific unit by that. My understanding at the time, as it is now, is

3 that that was a shorthand way of describing the Bosnian armed force

4 forces.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you.

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, before I go any further, perhaps I

7 should tender the notebook as an exhibit.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The entire notebook?

9 MR. ROBSON: The entire notebook, I would ask, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.

11 MR. WOOD: No objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: No objection?

13 MR. WOOD: No objection.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The entire notebook will

15 be -- is admitted into evidence as an exhibit. May it please be given an

16 exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 60.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Hogg, I'd like to show you two further documents. The

21 first document is Defence document D21. It's another interview with Abu

22 Abdel Aziz which he gave in January 1993.

23 MR. ROBSON: I should say that it's pages 2 and 3 of that document

24 that we're interested in.

25 Perhaps before I read out the text, would it be possible just to

Page 361

1 go back to the front page so that I can confirm to the Court indeed that

2 this is an article that Abdel Aziz gave. Okay.

3 Q. So we can see it was an article that appeared in the "Ad-Dawah"

4 magazine in Pakistan, January 1993, headed: "The Jihad in Bosnia."

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Written by the witness, Mr. Hogg?

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, this was not by Mr. Hogg, but it was --

7 the interviewee was the same person that Mr. Hogg interviewed, Abdel Aziz.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 MR. ROBSON: Now, perhaps, if we could turn to page 2 that I

10 mentioned earlier.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Who was the author of the article?

12 MR. ROBSON: A very good question. Your Honour, I don't believe

13 the author is named in it.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where was it published?

15 MR. ROBSON: It was published in Pakistan, and the magazine was

16 "Ad-Dawah," and it was in January of 1993.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

18 MR. ROBSON: So, perhaps, if we can focus on the second half of

19 this document, the part beginning: "In view of the situation ..."

20 If I could read that out to the Court.

21 Q. What it says is: "In view of the situation, we wondered whether

22 it was permissible to make Jihad with these people; these people, who

23 drank alcohol and committed adultery, even to the extent that they drink

24 at the war front. There were also females in the military forces with a

25 lot of promiscuity going on. However, Alhamd-u-lillah, when we prayed to

Page 362

1 Allah to guide us on whether we should make Jihad and fight, we found a

2 group which consisted of Muslims.

3 "They were mainly Imams, many from Saudi Arabia, Khaleej, and

4 students from various universities around the world. They had begun

5 working under the banner of 'Islamic Muslim Forces.' They also said that

6 to fight alongside with the official military forces against the Kuffar

7 was not fighting in the way of Allah. Alhamd-u-lillah, this group had

8 prepared more than nine military units fighting at different locations and

9 instituted some requirements for anyone who wanted to join them. This

10 included praying five times daily, no alcohol consumption, no fornication

11 or adultery, and no use of foul language.

12 "These were the basic requirements, which the Bosnian Muslims

13 considered very tough. These were the people who started the Jihad, and

14 whenever we come across any Arab brothers, we would tell them to go to

15 their country and inform their community that a Jihad had started in

16 Bosnia to inform them that their is a group called Muslim Forces that has

17 the right, "akida" [phoen]; and whoever wants to come, let him come."

18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, that last part is obviously on the next

19 page. Perhaps if we can take a look at the next page to confirm that.

20 Thank you.

21 Before I pose any question, I'd like to put another document to

22 Mr. Hogg, and this is -- or perhaps rather than using a document, it may

23 be possible to use the tape-recording that the Prosecution played earlier,

24 Exhibit 51. I don't know if that's a possibility.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Everything is always possible.

Page 363

1 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 I noted the timing of the particular section that I was interested

3 in, and it's three minutes 40, so perhaps if we could play that part

4 again.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I guess it's going to be played.

6 [Audiotape played]

7 MR. ROBSON: We can pause it there. Thank you.

8 Q. So my question, Mr. Hogg: In both the article -- the interview,

9 I should say, given by Abdel Aziz in Pakistan in January 1993, and also

10 during the interview which he gave with you in August 1992, he made it

11 clear that the Mujahedin in Bosnia were related to the Muslim forces,

12 didn't he?

13 And perhaps it's right to say, isn't it, at no point, during that

14 interview that was played to the Court today, did he actually mention the

15 Bosnian Army?

16 A. That's correct, not during the tape transcript, but his insistent

17 that we got the permission from the Bosnian Army --

18 Q. There was a reference to the Bosnian Army at that point.

19 A. Yes, absolutely.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. May I just ask a question. When he asked

21 you again for permission to interview him, who did he refer you to?

22 THE WITNESS: The Bosnian Army.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the Bosnian Army was mentioned?

24 MR. ROBSON: The interview, Your Honour, was the point I was

25 trying to get at.

Page 364

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interview?

2 MR. ROBSON: Yes.

3 Q. Now, in the article that appeared in Pakistan that I read out,

4 concerning the Imams and students that he met, Abdel Aziz explained:

5 "They also said that to fight alongside with the official military forces

6 against the Khaffar was not fighting in the way of Allah."

7 Would you accept that Aziz is saying that those Imams told the

8 Mujahedin that they should not fight alongside the official military

9 forces in Bosnia; in other words, the Bosnian Army?

10 A. I would accept that, yeah.

11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, please, could I tender those exhibits

12 into evidence?

13 I should say that the source of the first document, the article,

14 it's come from the Prosecution and it's a document that was referred to in

15 the expert witness report of Evan Kohlmann.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before I tend to Mr. Wood, can I just

17 understand that this article, that was written in January of '93 in

18 Afghanistan, is it talking about the Bosnian war?

19 MR. ROBSON: Indeed, yes, Your Honour. It's an article that was

20 written in January 1993. It appeared in a Pakistani magazine. It was --

21 the interviewee was Abu Abdel Aziz, and it was talking about the Bosnian

22 war.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Mr. Wood.

25 MR. WOOD: No objection, Your Honour.

Page 365

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 You're tendering two exhibits. I've got here Exhibit D21. Is

3 that what you want to tender?

4 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, just to clarify, the audiotape that

5 we've just listened to is already in evidence, so it's the one exhibit.

6 It's the article.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Exhibit D21 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

9 exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 61.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

13 Now, also in connection with the Abdel Aziz that I've just read

14 out, perhaps at this stage I could ask that the video that the Prosecution

15 played earlier be played once again concerning the formation of the 7th

16 Muslim Brigade. It's Exhibit 55.

17 MR. WOOD: Excuse me, Your Honour. Did the Defence have any

18 particular segment or portion of that tape in mind?

19 MR. ROBSON: No, no. If we could just play a small excerpt, that

20 would be useful.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: From the beginning?

22 MR. ROBSON: It could be from the beginning, just the same as it

23 was, Your Honour, please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 366

1 MR. ROBSON: There's no need to go further.

2 Q. Mr. Hogg, in this video, we can see, with the man identified as

3 Abdel Aziz, is a religion man. That's the Imam of Travnik, Efendi Nusret

4 Avdibegovic?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Would you agree that their presence together would correspond with

7 the part of the interview given by Abdel Aziz, where he said that found

8 the found --

9 [French on English channel]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we stop, please. We have the French coming

11 through the English channel. Can we have some help?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. That was a mistake of the French

13 interpreters. Sorry.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Can you put the question again, and let's get the interpretation.

16 MR. ROBSON: Yes.

17 Q. So it's in connection with the article that appeared in the

18 Pakistani "Ad-Dawah" magazine. We can see here together Abdel Aziz with a

19 religion man, the Efendi, the Imam of Travnik. Would you agree their

20 presence together corresponded with that part of their interview given by

21 Mr. Aziz, where he said that they found a group consisting mainly imams?

22 A. Yes, I would say it corresponds. Whether that's accurate or not,

23 I just don't know, I'm afraid.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. ROBSON: Now, we can leave that video. We're going to turn to

Page 367

1 the article dated 27th of June, 1993, which is Prosecution Exhibit 56.

2 Perhaps if we can have that document up on the screen.

3 Q. Now, if we can -- if we can focus on the second paragraph in the

4 top half of that document, it's the paragraph beginning: "More than 200

5 Mujahedin ..."

6 If I can quote that, it states: "More than 200 Mujahedin, who

7 have been fighting in Bosnia for the past year, now operate as lawless

8 gangs which the Bosnian Command is powerless to control."

9 First of all, Mr. Hogg, you've confirmed today that you wrote that

10 article?

11 A. Yes, I have, yeah.

12 Q. And as an experienced career journalist, this was your informed

13 conclusion, wasn't it, that those Mujahedin operated as lawless gangs?

14 A. By that time, yeah.

15 Q. And at that stage, the Bosnian Command was powerless to control

16 them as well?

17 A. Well, clearly the colonel that I met in the street in Zenica,

18 whose comments formed the basis for this, considered that they were beyond

19 the Bosnian Army control. I wouldn't have any reason to doubt that,

20 although one aspect that has always confused me is the relationship

21 between 7th Brigade and other Bosnian forces.

22 Q. If we can refer to the third paragraph, following on from what you

23 just told us, it's right that you also referred to the Mujahedin as

24 "freelance fighters"?

25 A. Mmm-hmm.

Page 368

1 Q. And by that do I take it to mean that they operated freely,

2 without having to obey anybody?

3 A. As far as my information was, that was pretty much the case.

4 Q. And then the final part from this particular article, it's down

5 towards the bottom of the page. It sits within the paragraph: "Since we

6 he made the promise, that promise last year ..." There's one sentence I

7 would like to read out to you.

8 It states: "When a truck carrying Islamic soldiers collided with

9 a UN vehicle, the Mujahedin threatened to kill the Muslim judge who heard

10 the case against them."

11 Again, would you agree, Mr. Hogg, that that's a further indication

12 that the Mujahedin had no respect for the Bosnian authorities?

13 A. I would agree with that.

14 Q. Mr. Hogg, I'd like to turn the Court's attention to the document

15 that you received prior to interviewing Abdel Aziz. You've explained to

16 the Court that Abdel Aziz told you that you needed permission from the

17 military.

18 At that point, you returned to Travnik; is that so?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Can you confirm that that was the only official paper that you

21 received from the authorities during your travels in the region on that

22 occasion?

23 A. On that occasion?

24 Q. At that time.

25 A. It was the only bit of paper that I got that satisfied Abdel Aziz,

Page 369

1 but I'm pretty sure that I would have had other -- other paperwork to have

2 been able to move around the region freely. But certainly that's the only

3 piece of paper that had any relevance as far as he was concerned.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you've told us how the translator obtained that

5 document?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. She was inside the command -- or the building, let's say, for ten

8 minutes?

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. And she came out; and, at some stage, you saw that document; is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you've told us that you don't speak the local language,

14 Bosnian?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. However, it looked official and it had a stamp on it?

17 A. My memory of precisely what it contained is hazy, but I have no

18 doubt that it would have had a stamp on it to testify to its validity.

19 Q. Yes. Now, based on the countries that you had visited as a

20 journalist, is it fair to say that you travelled in war zones before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And would you agree with me that during a wartime situation, when

23 there were journalists in the field, a risk might arise that a journalist

24 could publish a story and reveal sensitive information about military

25 targets or personnel in a certain area?

Page 370

1 A. Yes, I would.

2 Q. It's certainly not unusual to require journalists to have special

3 permission to move into combat areas, is it?

4 A. It is absolutely routine and has been for a very long time. As I

5 understand it, in the Spanish Civil War, one of the complaints was the

6 bits of paper you needed to work.

7 MR. ROBSON: If I could refer the Court's attention to Defence

8 document D16, this is a document that there should be both B/C/S and

9 English versions.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Hogg, we can see this is a document of the operative

11 group Bosanska Krajina, based in Travnik, and it's dated 9th of June of

12 1993.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And we can see from this document that this is an approval which

15 allows for entry into specified war zones by a number of named

16 journalists?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. And what the document states is that the subordinate units and

19 individuals will provide the necessary assistance to the above-mentioned

20 persons?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It's possible, is it not, Mr. Hogg, that the document you

23 received, or shall I say your interpreter received, was just like this

24 one, a generalised document granting access to enter a war zone, stating

25 officially that you were a journalist rather than being addressed to a

Page 371

1 particular individual; would you agree?

2 A. Frankly, not, no. My understanding was that the piece of paper

3 that I was given was specifically the granting of permission to interview

4 Abdel Aziz. I think that I would probably have already had other

5 paperwork given to me to be able to work in that area.

6 The other thing to bear in mind is that this document was issued

7 almost a year after the interview that I conducted, by which time, given

8 the very large number of journalists working in Central Bosnia, the whole

9 press operation had become much more sophisticated.

10 Q. Well, let's just consider what you've said. You've told us that

11 your understanding was that it was specific information to speak with

12 Abdel Aziz?

13 A. Specific permission, yeah.

14 Q. Permission?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. But earlier on, during your testimony, as I understand it, you've

17 explained to the Court that at no time were those words used; all the

18 words that you used were you needed the necessary permission. That's my

19 understanding of your evidence earlier on during evidence-in-chief.

20 A. I needed the necessary permission for him to agree to talk to me.

21 I had to present him with something which said that the Bosnian Army

22 allowed me to interview Abdel Aziz. That's my recollection.

23 Q. Well, you've told us you looked at this document, you said it

24 looked official, there was a stamp on it. You haven't mentioned, but

25 there was no name of Abdel Aziz on there, was there?

Page 372

1 A. I've said two or three times now that I can't remember precisely

2 what was on that document.

3 Q. Because if the document was written in Bosnian, the name would

4 remain the same, wouldn't it? You would still --

5 A. Of course, absolutely.

6 Q. And, surely, that would be something significant that would

7 perhaps stick in your mind?

8 A. Not really. It was -- it was at night. Yeah, we were elated we

9 had got the necessary permission to go and interview Abdel Aziz. I just

10 have no recollection of what appeared on that piece of paper at all, I'm

11 afraid.

12 Q. No recollection.

13 MR. ROBSON: Just bear with me for one moment, please.

14 Thank you, Mr. Hogg. I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before --

16 MR. ROBSON: Sorry, I beg your pardon. Perhaps just before I sit

17 down, I believe, yes, I would like to tender that document into evidence,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's D16?

20 MR. ROBSON: That is D16, correct.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.

22 MR. WOOD: No objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. D16 is admitted into

24 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 62.

Page 373

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before you let the witness go, Mr. Robson, I'd

3 like to put a question to the witness which you can still cross-examine on

4 them.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And perhaps it's a legal question that you cannot

7 answer, and if that is the case, then please do not attempt to answer it,

8 but simply say that you can't, but my question refers to the status of the

9 Mujahedin. And what I want to ask you is if you were ever offered any

10 information about whether the Mujahedin troops were considered as

11 mercenaries or considered as regular members of the ABiH.

12 The distinction can be difficult to draw for someone who's not an

13 expert on international humanitarian law. But in the terms of the Geneva

14 Conventions, it does make a difference. So were you at any point offered

15 any evidence or could you form any opinion as to whether the Mujahedin

16 were to be classified as mercenaries or as regular members of the armed

17 forces?

18 A. What I would say is that in the early days of the conflict, I

19 believe that the relationship did exist. There were several instances

20 involving acquaintances of mine coming across the Mujahedin and the

21 Mujahedin being in the company of members of the Bosnian military. But by

22 the time I came to write the story in June 1993, my impression is that a

23 degree of radicalisation had taken place, that new fighters had come into

24 the country, and at that stage -- by that stage I think that it would

25 correct probably to look at them as effectively as mercenaries.

Page 374

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Mr. Robson.

2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I wouldn't wish to pose any questions

3 following that.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.

5 Mr. Wood, any re-examination?

6 MR. WOOD: The Prosecution has nothing further at this time, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 Any questions, Judge? Any questions for you, Judge?


11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one or two questions to clarify in my own

12 mind, Mr. Hogg.

13 At page 16 of the transcript today, lines 19 to 23, if somebody

14 can help you to get there, you made reference to the fact that the Serb

15 and Croat military personnel were on the same side. I don't know whether

16 you can remember that.

17 A. I would need to see the page of the transcript. I was

18 referring --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's I was asking if somebody could help you to

20 get there. Can somebody help you?

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's there on the screen.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look at the screen there.

23 A. Yeah. What I said was that the Bosnians and the Croats were on

24 the same side against the Serbs.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Bosnians and the Croats --

Page 375

1 A. Were on the same side against the Serbs.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I obviously had miswritten. Thank you very

3 much for that clarification.

4 You individually, as a human being just in that area, were you

5 able to distinguish, by looking or even by talking, between Bosnians and

6 Croats?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, at page 23, lines 2 to 5, you said that two

9 of some dozen military men that you met wore a military uniform?

10 A. This is when I first came across the Mujahedin.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.

12 A. Yeah. No, two of them wore local military uniform. In other

13 words, they were identifiable as members of the Bosnian military.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did you identify them as members of the Bosnian

15 military?

16 A. I can only assume it was the uniforms that they were wearing.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you see any insignia on them?

18 A. That is -- that's not something I could state with absolute

19 certainty, but there was no doubt in my mind that they were Bosnian. So

20 then I must have seen something that indicated that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. There was two?

22 A. I would say there was two out of the group of about a dozen.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to remember how the rest were dressed?

24 A. Yeah. The rest were dressed in sort of a hodge-podge of different

25 military/camouflage clothing. Some of the -- I already mentioned one of

Page 376

1 them, for instance, was wearing a dark track suit, but others would have

2 had either camouflage jackets or camouflage trousers, or in some cases

3 both. So there was no uniformity to it.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 That concludes my questions.

6 Mr. Wood, do you have any questions arising from the questions

7 from the Bench?

8 MR. WOOD: I might assist the Trial Chamber, Your Honour, if the

9 witness could clarify, when he refers to Bosnians, what exactly does he

10 mean by that?

11 THE WITNESS: Bosnian Muslims.

12 MR. WOOD: And when he refers to Croats --

13 THE WITNESS: Bosnian Croats.

14 MR. WOOD: And when he refers to Serbs --

15 THE WITNESS: Bosnian Serbs, yeah.

16 MR. WOOD: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Mr. Robson, any questions arising from the Bench's questions?

19 MR. ROBSON: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Mr. Hogg, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you

22 very much for coming. The Trial Chamber would like to express its

23 gratitude for you availing yourself, I'm sure you've got a very busy

24 schedule, and taking time off to come and testify. Thank you very much.

25 You are now excused.

Page 377

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.

3 [The witness withdrew]


5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 The next witness who's scheduled to testify is not ready to

7 commence his testimony today, so we would propose that we adjourn at this

8 point, and he will be ready to commence his testimony at 2.15 tomorrow

9 afternoon.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do not think that we are sitting tomorrow, not

11 according to the court schedule. I haven't seen it.

12 I believe my court schedule is outdated. We are sitting tomorrow

13 at 2.15. In which court? The same courtroom. Thank you very much.

14 And that being so, before we adjourn, I would like to just deal

15 with a small housekeeping matter.

16 Am I right -- I've just sort of been literally calling for breaks,

17 and I'm not quite sure whether this accords with the requirements of the

18 interpreters, in particular, and the taping. But previously, in a

19 previous case, I have sat -- we have sat here for one and a quarter hours

20 per session; that is, if we start at quarter past 2.00, we would go from

21 quarter past 2.00 until half past 3.00, take a 30-minute break and go on

22 like that.

23 Does that suit everybody? Judge Harhoff tells me normally it's

24 one and a half hours. And how long are the breaks?

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Twenty minutes.

Page 378

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We were taking one and a quarter hours and

2 30 minutes' breaks, okay. I'm not quite sure which way you want to go.

3 One and a half hours, 20 minutes' breaks?

4 MR. MUNDIS: We're certainly in the hands of the Trial Chamber.

5 It's up to the Trial Chamber, as far as the Prosecution is concerned.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll talk about it and we'll give a final

7 ruling when we next meet tomorrow afternoon.

8 Mr. Registrar, do you want to say something? Okay.

9 In that event, then the Court stands adjourned until tomorrow

10 afternoon at quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom. Court adjourned.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

12 5.35 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

13 July 11th, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.