Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1066

1 Monday, 23rd July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody.

6 Mr. Registrar, can you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

8 Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

12 Prosecution, Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

14 Honours, everyone in and around the courtroom.

15 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis. With me today is the final

16 member of our trial team, Mr. Neuner, and we're assisted today by our case

17 manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Now for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

21 afternoon, my learned friends. Good afternoon to all in the courtroom.

22 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the Defence of General

23 Rasim Delic, with our assistants, Lejla Gluhic and Asja Zujo.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 And before we call the witness in, there's just one little point

Page 1067

1 that the Trial Chamber would like to raise. It's a pity that it's a bit

2 late, but this relates to the witness Berislav Marijanovic. He was

3 cross-examined by you, Mr. Robson. You put to him a second statement that

4 he was supposed to have made to an NGO somewhere.

5 Do you remember?

6 MR. ROBSON: The Commission for the Verification of War Crimes,

7 yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he denied ever making that statement; am I

9 right? He denied knowledge of that statement?

10 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, my recollection of the evidence, and of

11 course I'd have to check the transcript to be exact, but my recollection

12 was that initially he did not recall giving a statement, but then later

13 on, under cross-examination, he accepted that he did give that statement,

14 because he accepted that the person who took the statement or the officers

15 who took the statement must have spoken to him to put that information

16 within the statement itself. That's my recollection.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's not sort of spend more time on our

18 recollections, but let me just double-check with you that this is the

19 statement that is supposed to have been taken over from the (redacted)

20 (redacted), is that it?

21 MR. ROBSON: I recollect the second statement was the statement

22 taken by the Commission for the Verification of War Crimes in the

23 Territory of the Croation Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and I believe that

24 commission is based in Mostar.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have two statements, the one that was used by the

Page 1068

1 Prosecution and the other that is said to have been -- this document has

2 been taken over from the (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted).

5 I'm advised that this discussion actually took place in private

6 session, so maybe we should go into private session.

7 May the Registrar please put us into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1069

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution calls Osman Fusko, and my colleague,

14 Mr. Neuner, will be leading this witness in direct examination,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You didn't have any interest

17 in that discussion?

18 MR. MUNDIS: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [The witness answers through interpreter]

Page 1070

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Fusko. You may be seated.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

4 Examination by Mr. Neuner:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. What is your name?

8 A. Osman Fusko.

9 Q. And in 1992, you were commanding an independent company belonging

10 to the Mehurici Territorial Defence?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in November 1992, you joined the 306th Mountain Brigade?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was the commander of that brigade?

15 A. Esad Sipic. If I could ask that document PT1096 please be shown.

16 Document dating from 14 May 1993.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'll repeat my question. My mic was off.

18 I thought shouldn't you lay a basis for that exhibit before you ask for

19 it?

20 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, this is a document which is from the

21 306th Mountain Brigade.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't you establish that through the witness?


24 Q. Have you seen in your time at this 306th Mountain Brigade,

25 documents from that brigade?

Page 1071

1 A. Not all the documents were available to me. I did see some,

2 however.

3 Q. You just spoke about Esad Sipic. Did you ever see a signature of

4 Mr. Esad Sipic?

5 A. I did, yes. I used to.

6 Q. And if I showed you a document bearing his signature, would you be

7 in a position to recognise his signature?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, if I now may ask that the document

10 PT1096 be shown to this witness, or should I ask further questions?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, sir.


13 Q. While the document is appearing on the screen, can I ask you where

14 was the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade located in 1993?

15 A. At what moment? At the moment when this document was issued? At

16 that time, the battalion was billeted in Mehurici.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please look, and if the original could be

18 scrolled down a little bit, at the signature now. Do you recognise the

19 signature?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Whose signature is this?

22 A. Esad Sipic's.

23 Q. And on the very last line, or actually on this third-last line of

24 the text, it says: "1BB." Could you explain what that means or what that

25 stands for, please?

Page 1072

1 A. The 1st Mountain Battalion.

2 Q. And again for the record, this was located in Mehurici; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, could I ask that this document please be

5 tendered into evidence?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 134.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the name of this document that we give

10 this exhibit number, what is the ERN number?

11 MR. NEUNER: The ERN number is 0603-1363 -- sorry, 1303 to 1304.

12 It's actually just -- I apologise. I'll read it again. It's a one-page

13 document which has the ERN 0603-1303 only.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's Exhibit 134.

15 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


18 Q. And until March 1993, you were assistant commander for Security

19 and Intelligence in the 2nd Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Of the 2nd Battalion, yes.

22 Q. And where was this 2nd Battalion located?

23 A. The 2nd Battalion was located in a village called Krpeljici.

24 Q. And in March 1993, what post did you take, what new post did you

25 take?

Page 1073

1 A. In March 1993, I was transferred to the 306th Mountain Brigade as

2 a security officer. It was either in March or in April; I can't remember.

3 Q. And how long did you remain in that post?

4 A. You mean as a security officer? I stayed until March 1995.

5 Q. And where did you work at that time from March 1993 until 1995?

6 A. You mean the location?

7 Q. Yes. Where was your office?

8 A. In Krpeljici and also in Guca Gora.

9 Q. Who was your superior as a security officer in the 306th Brigade?

10 A. My immediate superior was Asim Delalic.

11 Q. And what were your duties in the Military Security Service?

12 A. I performed military police duties and staff security duties as a

13 security officer.

14 Q. And how many military police officers were in the 306th Brigade in

15 1993?

16 A. Around 20 or so. I can't give you the exact number because I

17 don't remember.

18 Q. And how much staff at the Military Security Service of that

19 brigade in 1993?

20 A. Three.

21 Q. Can you please name them?

22 A. Myself, Asim Delalic and Haris Jusic.

23 Q. If you would learn about crimes in the AOR of the 306th Brigade,

24 what investigative steps were undertaken by the 306th Brigade Military

25 Security Service?

Page 1074

1 A. If we were to learn and if it was within our powers, obviously we

2 would search for the perpetrators of whatever crime was committed, and I

3 say "if."

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt? You just said "and I say

5 'if'." My question do you is: Did you learn about crimes committed?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you do, in terms of your investigation?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We couldn't do anything because the

9 perpetrators were the Mujahedin, so we couldn't investigate.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question, Witness.

11 You said that investigation measures could be taken out. Were

12 there any prevention measures in place? Were they provided for any

13 prevention measures to prevent possible crimes? Did you have those in

14 place?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, there was no way to

16 prevent any crimes. The Mujahedin who were in the area were beyond

17 anybody's control.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I understand. However, the

19 measures of prevention, generally speaking, were they provided for at

20 least on paper or not?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, as far as I know,

22 there were no measures provided for in order to prevent the things that

23 would eventually happen.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Neuner, to do this to you, but from

Page 1075

1 the question that Judge asked, I have a question.

2 When you say "the Mujahedin who were in the area wouldn't be under

3 anybody's control," what do you mean by "anybody"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody could control them in

5 whatever they were doing, in whatever tasks they had, if we may call those

6 tasks. They did of their own initiative without any previous agreements

7 with anybody. I don't know, to this very day, who was it who had sent

8 them to that area of responsibility.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now when you say "anybody," do you mean anybody

10 within your area of responsibility or the other two colleagues that you

11 are talking about, or do you mean anybody in the world?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mean the entire world, as

13 the globe.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking you what do you mean by

15 "anybody." Do you mean you and your colleagues within the 306th Mountain

16 Brigade Security Services system?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I meant. None of us

18 could control them.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: The question from the Presiding Judge begs the

21 question of: If you were aware of the Mujahedin having their own system

22 of disciplinary investigations. So they -- My question really is: If

23 they were not under your control, were they then under their own control,

24 did the Mujahedin have their own military police who took care of

25 investigations against crimes committed by members of Mujahedin? Just

Page 1076

1 tell us if you know. If you don't know, then that's fine, but my question

2 is --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand the question, but I

4 wouldn't be able to answer your question because it was impossible to

5 establish any contacts with them at any time. In other words, I don't

6 have any information as to whether they had any staff who were in charge

7 of such tasks.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Neuner. Sorry to do that to you.


11 Q. I want to start from what the Judges just asked.

12 In 1992 and early 1993, where were the Mujahedin located?

13 A. They were located in the elementary school in Mehurici.

14 Q. And in that building, was there also another unit located?

15 A. You mean an army unit?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes, there was the Sector Staff of Mehuric or the Regional Staff

18 of Mehuric, but they were separated. The two were separated. The

19 Regional Staff was on the second or the third floor.

20 Q. And where were the Mujahedin located in that building?

21 A. The third floor.

22 Q. And there was one staircase or several staircases leading up that

23 building?

24 A. One staircase, one.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

Page 1077

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to my

2 learned friend. Page 12 of the transcript, lines 1 and 2, the witness

3 didn't say that the Regional Staff was on the second or the third floor,

4 but the other way around, that the Mujahedin were located there. The

5 transcript has it that the Regional Staff was located there. I would like

6 the witness to clarify that.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Mujahedin were on the third

8 floor, and the Regional Staff of Mehuric was on the ground floor of the

9 elementary school.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've got that now, Mr. Neuner?

11 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


14 Q. If I may ask, you said earlier there was also the 1st Battalion of

15 the 306th Brigade located in Mehurici. You just talked about the Regional

16 Staff earlier. Could you clarify at what point in time was one staff

17 preceding or one unit preceding the other?

18 A. The Regional Staff of Mehuric was located in that school in

19 Mehuric up to the moment when the 306th Brigade was established. When the

20 306th Mountain Brigade was established, only the battalion remained

21 located in the elementary school in Mehuric.

22 Q. This was in November 1992 when the 306th Brigade was established?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And within the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade, was there an

25 assistant for military security?

Page 1078

1 A. Yes, there was.

2 Q. What was his name?

3 A. Hasan Zukanovic.

4 Q. And where was his office located?

5 A. I don't know. Somewhere in the school. I really wouldn't be able

6 to tell you where his office was within the school.

7 Q. Was he in a position to send some information to you about the

8 Mujahedin?

9 A. Is that your question?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. He was in a position to do that, but I never saw him sending any

12 documents. If a document did arrive, it is possible that it reached the

13 assistant commander for security directly.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who was the commander of the 1st Battalion located in the

17 school, the 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade?

18 A. Mirzet Ljubenovic.

19 Q. How long did he stay in this position?

20 A. I wouldn't really know, I wouldn't be able to give you a time

21 frame. It was 12 or 13 years ago, so it's very difficult for me to

22 remember details like that.

23 Q. Since we talked about the relationship of your service towards the

24 Mujahedin, could I please show you a document, PT1092, dating 10th of May,

25 1993. The ERN number is 043-2452 to 2453.

Page 1079

1 You see on the -- if you could scroll down, please, a little bit.

2 You see this is a document which is sent to the General Staff of

3 the ARBiH, but it also has a section about the 306th Mountain Brigade in

4 it, and I'm interested, please, in the second page, where -- if it could

5 please be scrolled up, yes -- where there is a text which is underlined.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we see the second page in the English

7 version, please. Thank you very much.


9 Q. And it talks there about an undefined status of the Muslim forces

10 from Mehuric that, and I quote: "... work on establishment of the 8th

11 Muslim Brigade --"

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you quoting, sir? We would like --

13 MR. NEUNER: This is on the second line of page 2 of the English

14 translation. Sorry, this is page 3 of the English translation. It says,

15 "Forces from Mehuric" at the beginning on the first line and "Muslim" is

16 on the second page actually of the English translation.

17 "The Muslim forces from may reach that," and I'm quoting from the

18 second line, "work from the establishment of the 8th Muslim Brigade and

19 their fighters from our brigade that report to them."

20 As I mentioned earlier, this is from -- under the heading of the

21 306th Mountain Brigade.

22 Being in the Military Security Service at the time, Mr. Fusko, can

23 you confirm that there were fighters from the 306th Brigade that went over

24 to the Mujahedin?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, can I just establish one little point.

Page 1080

1 Are you equating 8th Muslim Brigade with the Mujahedin?

2 MR. NEUNER: I will ask a question about this in a moment,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, then you are --

5 MR. NEUNER: Should it be the other way around?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then you are ahead of yourself, yeah.

7 MR. NEUNER: I'm ahead of myself.

8 Q. Have you everyone heard of the establishment of an 8th Muslim

9 Brigade, Mr. Fusko?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Let me start, then, earlier. The document talks about the

12 undefined status of the Muslim forces from Mehurici. Who was meant with

13 "The Muslim forces from Mehurici"?

14 A. In this document, it referred to the Mujahedin.

15 Q. So the Muslim forces from Mehurici are the Mujahedin; yes?

16 A. Yes, precisely.

17 Q. And if I understand correctly, the document appears to suggest

18 that fighters from "our brigade," meaning the 306th Brigade, report to

19 them. Is that what you could also observe at the time?

20 A. I did not see any reports on the part of the 306th Brigade

21 fighters to the Mujahedin. At the end of the day, I could not observe

22 them because the way they were billeted, there was no access.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could you please look

25 at the document and observe that the Prosecution has asked two leading

Page 1081

1 questions which I would kindly ask my learned friend not to do.

2 Second of all, in this report, at least in the Bosnian language,

3 there is no reference made that reports were sent to the 306th Brigade.

4 It says "there are fighters from our brigade who apply to join them."

5 This may be a mistake in translation. In any case, in my document I don't

6 see a reference to any reporting.

7 I would kindly ask my learned friend to read the document well

8 before starting to put questions to the witness and check the translation,

9 if necessary.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, do you have any response?

11 MR. NEUNER: The translation from the DVU Translation Service says

12 you report to them, and we will verify whether this indeed should be

13 translated differently, as my learned friend suggests.

14 Q. Did you notice anybody who was applying to join the Mujahedin, as

15 my learned colleague suggests the translation should read?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, maybe we could verify another away. If

17 you can ask the witness to read the relevant B/C/S portion and let the

18 interpreter interpret for us.


20 Q. Mr. Fusko, could you --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And let me say to you, where you are showing us the

22 English version, the sentence starts with: "Forces from Mehurici," and

23 I've been hearing you and the witness talk about Mujahedin forces. We

24 haven't seen the first page to see whether the word before "forces" is

25 "Mujahedin."

Page 1082

1 Anyway, read the entire sentence, or rather get the witness to

2 read the entire sentence in B/C/S and let's get an interpretation.


4 Q. You have heard the suggestion from Your Honour. Could you please

5 read the sentence, Mr. Fusko?

6 A. Can this be blown up a little? Thank you.

7 "We have a lot of problems with the non-defined status of Muslim

8 forces in Mehurici."

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on, sir.

10 A. "According to our information, they are currently --"


12 Q. Could you please continue to read?

13 A. --" ... they are currently working on the establishment of the

14 8th Muslim Brigade. Every day, fighters from our brigade apply to join

15 either them or some other units. This interferes with our plans to use

16 the units. This type of behaviour interferes with our plans. The social

17 status of our fighters is very bad, and sometimes we are faced with

18 ultimatums to provide them with the bare necessities that I have already

19 informed you about."

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, we will seek to alter the translation

22 into the English language.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And thank you to you, too,

24 Madam Vidovic.

25 You may proceed, Mr. Neuner.

Page 1083


2 Q. If you please stay on the same page of that document, and the

3 sentence in the original starts with: "Iz podataka." If you could read

4 that out so that we get -- can get a translation.

5 A. Which sentence do you want me to read?

6 Q. Yes. On this page, the sentence starts with: "Iz podataka," four

7 lines below the underlined sentences.

8 A. Very well:

9 "We see from the information that so far not a single sentence

10 has been pronounced in the valley. Being aware of the lack of efficiency

11 of the judiciary, the fighters often break the law. We are daily involved

12 in preventing leaks of confidential information."

13 Q. This sentence, first of all, talks about the Biljani Valley. Could

14 you explain to the Chamber what the Biljani Valley is?

15 A. It's a region, it's the valley of the Bila River.

16 Q. So this is where Mehurici is located?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And which court in 1993 was competent to try cases from the

19 Bila Valley?

20 A. The court in Travnik.

21 Q. And is that correct, from your perspective as a member of the

22 Military Security Service, that not a single judgement or sentence has

23 been passed with regard to that valley?

24 A. Well, up to the moment when the conflict broke out with the

25 Croats, we did not have any problems. There were no criminal reports.

Page 1084

1 But when it comes to the Mujahedin, we were not in a position to file any

2 criminal reports because we could not corroborate such reports with any

3 valid documents that would enable any court to receive such a report.

4 Q. Let me rephrase my question. With regard to the 306th Brigade,

5 Mountain Brigade, was there any judgement passed by May 1993 with regard

6 to criminal offences by the court in Travnik?

7 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I can't remember.

8 Q. But --

9 A. There were no serious crimes.

10 Q. So you, as a member of the Military Security Service of the 306th

11 Brigade, say there were no serious crimes by May 1993 in the Bila Valley?

12 A. As far as I know, before the outbreak of the conflicts with the

13 Croats, we did not have any problems that would entice us to file criminal

14 reports.

15 Q. And in April 1993, at the end of April 1993, do you recall that

16 there was a serious crime against Croats committed in the Bila Valley?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do you get that from, Mr. Neuner?

18 MR. NEUNER: I withdraw the question.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


21 Q. And with regard to the Mujahedin, the second part of my question

22 would be: Do you know whether any judgements or sentences have been

23 passed with regard to the Mujahedin?

24 A. As far as I know, no.

25 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

Page 1085

1 Could I ask to tender that document into evidence, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: PT1092 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

3 given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 135.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

7 MR. NEUNER: Could it please be asked that the document PT1094 be

8 shown to the witness. The ERN number is Y005-4266. This is a document

9 from the 13th of May, 1993, type-signed by Mr. Asim Delalic.

10 Q. If I could just ask you to look at the two underlined names,

11 Ramo Durmis and Sljivo Malik which are mentioned here, and I will read the

12 sentence out.

13 It is the last paragraph, Your Honours, the third line -- fourth

14 line of the English translation from above:

15 "With the Mujahedin --"

16 Sorry, I see I have a different version here. It's the

17 second-last paragraph:

18 "With the Mujahedin --"

19 It's the third line from below:

20 "With the Mujahedin are a sizeable number of Bosnians who are

21 commanded by Ramo Durmis and Sljivo Malik, who studied in Saudi Arabia at

22 one time, is with him."

23 Could I ask you: Do you know who Ramo Durmis is?

24 A. I have heard of Ramo Durmis, and on one occasion I saw him.

25 Q. Where did you see him?

Page 1086

1 A. While I was passing through Mehurici, just in passing.

2 Q. And what did you hear about Ramo Durmis?

3 A. I only heard that he was a member of the Mujahedin Unit, that he

4 was up there with them.

5 Q. So this means he stayed at the Mehurici school?

6 A. Not in the school in Mehurici, but in their camp in Poljanice.

7 Q. And it says here in the sentence that Mr. Durmis commanded a

8 sizeable number of Bosnians?

9 A. How should I know whether he commanded or not? This is probably

10 information obtained from the ground. Probably the information was

11 obtained from the local population.

12 Q. And what do you know about Sljivo Malik?

13 A. I have heard of him, but I have never seen him and I don't know

14 him.

15 Q. What did you hear of him?

16 A. Quite simply that he was also a member of that team, so to speak,

17 those people who were with the Mujahedin.

18 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, could I ask that this document be

19 admitted into evidence, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be exhibit number 136.

23 MR. NEUNER: Could I just ask that Exhibit 92 be shown, page 13 of

24 that Exhibit. The ERN number is 0471-7276.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "Exhibit 92", it is Exhibit 92 in the

Page 1087

1 record here, sir?

2 MR. NEUNER: Correct, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Can I suggest that once a document has been

4 admitted into evidence, we call it by the exhibit number and forget about

5 ERN numbers.

6 MR. NEUNER: I just wanted to help my --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: For purposes of helping, thank you.

8 MR. NEUNER: -- the Registrar, because this document consists of

9 several pages, and I'm only seek seeking to have the witness shown page

10 13.

11 Q. If you please look at this picture, do you recognise anybody on

12 this picture -- on these pictures?

13 A. These people, no.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we start with the picture on top, sir.

15 A. Yes. Yes, we can start with that.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you recognise the person who that is holding the

17 microphone in the picture on top?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know him personally. I

19 probably saw him around. They all wore beards, and as far as I was

20 concerned they were all Arabs.

21 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Can we please have page 4 shown from the same

22 exhibit to the witness. ERN 0471-7266.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want to do about the rest of the

24 pictures on this page, sir?

25 MR. NEUNER: I understood the witness that he doesn't recognise

Page 1088

1 anybody.



4 Q. Have you ever seen this person?

5 A. Yes, I have seen this person in 1992, towards the end, in the

6 autumn, while they were still in Mehurici before they went to the camp,

7 but that person didn't stay in Mehurici long. He soon disappeared. I

8 don't know where he went off to, and I don't know what his name is, this

9 one with the red beard.

10 Q. And where in Mehurici did you see him?

11 A. I saw him in front of the school, going up to the third floor,

12 where they were.

13 Q. And was he alone or accompanied by somebody?

14 A. Usually, the Arabs stuck together.

15 Q. So was he accompanied by somebody or not?

16 A. No, no. You mean someone among the Bosnian people?

17 Q. In general. Was he alone or with others?

18 A. They never walked around alone, not a single one of them. There

19 were always two, three, or more of them together.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Fusko, you said, at line 10 of page 24: "I saw

21 him in front of the school going up to the third floor, where they were."

22 And the question to you is: On that occasion when you saw him, was he

23 alone or was he with somebody? Don't tell us what they used to do

24 normally. Tell us what happened on that day. Was he alone or was he

25 accompanied by somebody?

Page 1089

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in the company of his Arabs.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 Does that help you, sir?

4 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed.

6 MR. NEUNER: If I could please ask that Exhibit 90 be shown, a

7 document dating 28th of May, 1993.

8 Q. First of all, do you recognise the signature?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Whose signature is it?

11 A. Asim Delalic's.

12 Q. And the document talks about Mujahedin, led by Ramo Durmis, who

13 reconnoitered the Probijeno Brdo sector, Elevation 1009, and that one

14 person was killed in the conflict with the Frankopan Brigade. Do you know

15 where the Probijeno Brdo sector is?

16 A. I was never there, but I do know where Probijeno Brdo is.

17 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask, please, that from the Court binder Map 9

18 is being shown.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're done with this document?

20 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MR. NEUNER: It's already an exhibit.


24 MR. NEUNER: Can we enlarge on your screen, and if you could

25 please try to find Probijeno Brdo. And if the usher could, in a moment,

Page 1090

1 assist the witness, please, in case he finds it. If the "stilo" could be

2 passed to the witness, the "stilo."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see it here. Can we zoom

4 in, please?

5 MR. NEUNER: Can we enlarge it a little bit.

6 Q. Do you see it now?

7 A. [indicating]

8 Q. Could the "stilo" be given to the witness? Could you please

9 encircle it and mark a "1" next to it? Could you mark a "1" next to it,

10 please?

11 A. [Marks]

12 MR. NEUNER: And if the map could be lifted up a little bit,

13 please, upwards. Okay, now it's -- okay. I think we have to do that,

14 unfortunately, again. We can erase this. The witness is in a position to

15 mark it again.

16 May we please have also Mehurici displayed there? Thank you very

17 much.

18 Q. So, Witness, if you could please encircle again Probijeno Brdo and

19 mark a "1" next to it.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Do you know where the school in Mehurici as we talked about

22 earlier?

23 A. Yes, yes, I do.

24 Q. Could you encircle it and mark a "2" next to it, please?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Next to Mehurici or next to the school?

Page 1091

1 MR. NEUNER: Next to the school itself.

2 A. Well, I don't think I can recognise the position of the school on

3 this map, but approximately it could be around here [indicating].

4 Q. Can you mark a "2" next to it, please?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. You said that at some point in time, the Mujahedin moved out of

7 the school. Do you know where they moved to?

8 A. They moved to Poljanice.

9 Q. Can you encircle with a "3" where the camp is -- or the location

10 is where they moved to?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And do you know whether the camp was known by any name?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Since in the document we just saw there's reconnaissance going on

15 in Probijeno Brdo sector, could you indicate who controlled -- the

16 document was from the end of May. Who controlled, at the end of May, the

17 territory between Probijeno Brdo and Mehurici?

18 A. Between Probijeno Brdo and Mehurici, it should have been under the

19 control of the 306th Mountain Brigade, but at that time there were no

20 lines here or anything. This was done on their own initiative, if it has

21 to do with a document you showed a bit earlier. The Mujahedin did this on

22 their own initiative, going towards Probijeno Brdo.

23 Q. I understand, but the Frankopan Brigade mentioned in the document

24 was obviously near that point, so I'm just asking you where were, so to

25 speak, the ABiH or the other positions between --

Page 1092

1 A. No, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have positions there at

2 all.

3 Q. At the end of May?

4 A. I didn't understand your question.

5 Q. At the end of May or, to enlarge the question, the beginning of

6 June, did the ARBiH have any positions between Probijeno Brdo and

7 Mehurici?

8 A. As far as I know, no.

9 Q. What happened at the beginning of June 1993?

10 A. Where do you mean?

11 Q. In this area here we are talking about.

12 A. There was fighting in early June when there was a conflict between

13 the Croats and the Muslims.

14 Q. And when this conflict began, where were the positions in this

15 area being built?

16 A. I repeat, there were no positions here. They weren't set up here.

17 Q. But if I understand you correctly, a conflict began. A conflict

18 between whom?

19 A. Between the HVO and the armija.

20 Q. And from what positions, if any, were the Army BiH units starting

21 when the conflict began in this area?

22 A. I couldn't answer that question because I was away from the area

23 at that time.

24 Q. When did you come back to the area?

25 A. I came back on the day when the conflict broke out. I left my

Page 1093

1 house and went off towards Mehurici.

2 Q. And at the time you went to Mehurici, what month was it?

3 A. It was June.

4 Q. And in what part of June was it?

5 A. The first half of June. I can't be precise about the date. The

6 8th, the 9th, maybe the 7th. I can't recall the date now.

7 Q. And around the 7th to the 9th of June, 1993, from where were the

8 army units starting, in terms of the conflict you mentioned earlier?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, before you answer, sir.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. This is

11 the second time the same question is being put, where the unit started

12 from. It's a very leading unit [sic], if they started out at all.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction "leading question."

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is it's a leading question, sir. Any

16 response?

17 MR. NEUNER: I'm prepared to rephrase the question.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.


20 Q. Witness, you mentioned -- it's almost disappearing, page 21, line

21 3, that army BiH unit -- excuse me. Page 29, line 7, "On the day the

22 conflict broke out," and my only question was: When the conflict broke

23 out, and I understand it was between the ABiH and the HVO, from where were

24 the forces coming so that the conflict could indeed break out?

25 A. Well, you're asking me the same question, but I can't answer it

Page 1094

1 because on that morning I was at home, coming back from the forward

2 command post at Vlasic, and you could already hear shooting in the whole

3 valley, so I can't answer that question.

4 Q. When you came to Mehurici, were there any soldiers at the time in

5 Mehurici?

6 A. When I arrived in Mehurici, there were a few people in uniform

7 belonging to the army of the BH Army.

8 Q. And were they engaging in anything or they were just standing

9 there?

10 A. They were just standing there. They weren't doing anything at

11 that time. A few minutes or an hour or two later, Croat civilians began

12 to arrive in Mehurici.

13 Q. From what area?

14 A. From the area of Puselje --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sir.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object again. I

17 think the question should be whether the witness knows from where these

18 people arrived before asking them from where they came.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying, Madam Vidovic, that if the witness

20 doesn't know where they came, is it impossible for him just to answer, "I

21 don't know where they came from"?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm objecting because

23 today the questions have been highly leading. The witness is constantly

24 being led, because when such questions are asked, "Where do they come

25 from," the assumption is being made that the witness knows.

Page 1095

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I accept that there have been a number of leading

2 questions today. I'm talking about this specific question, "Where did

3 they come from? If you know, you tell. If you don't know, you say, "I

4 don't know."

5 Is that any clearer in any fair manner, ma'am, that question?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept what you say,

7 but because there were two or three leading questions in a row, that's why

8 I stood up. But of course the witness can answer as Your Honour said.

9 Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 You may proceed, sir, get the answer to the question, "Where did

12 they come from?"

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The civilians who arrived in

14 Mehurici, well, at the time of their arrival I didn't know where they were

15 coming from. Later on, I learned they were from Puselje, Bikosi,

16 Podstinje and so on, but mostly from those places, the area of Maline.


18 Q. Could you please mark on the map in front of you the locations you

19 just mentioned?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Please for Podstinje, could you use the number 4? Just

22 encircled --

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. The witness, for the record, has just encircled

25 Gornje Maline and placed a "5" next to it. He's now encircling Bikosi,

Page 1096

1 and he's placing a "6" into it.

2 Do we have -- the witness is just encircling Puselje and is

3 marking a "7" into it. Thank you.

4 And where were you when you were seeing these people?

5 A. I was in the primary school in Mehurici.

6 Q. And what did the persons who arrived there do?

7 A. You're referring to the civilians who were arriving?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. They were accommodated in the gym of the primary school. But as

10 to what they were doing, well, they were trying to survive.

11 Q. And of what ethnicity were these people?

12 A. Croat ethnicity.

13 Q. And did you talk to some of these people?

14 A. My conversation was with a Dr. Puselja, a lady, and there was also

15 a nurse whose name was Kata, I think, among them. So we discussed what

16 the people needed, how they could be helped, but that was on the following

17 days.

18 Q. And did you learn something in the conversations, what had

19 happened to these people?

20 A. As for what had happened to these people, what they said, although

21 I myself did not talk to them, but I heard that they were saying that some

22 people had been killed.

23 Q. And at what time of the day did you learn that information?

24 A. It was in the afternoon. I heard this from the Croat civilians

25 who were talking among themselves.

Page 1097

1 Q. And what exactly were they talking, if you remember?

2 A. That they were afraid of the Mujahedin, that that was the main

3 reason for their arrival, and so on.

4 Q. And with regard to the killed persons, what information could you

5 learn?

6 A. I didn't learn any information, but later on there were rumours

7 going round that at Bikosi people had been killed by Mujahedin or Arabs or

8 whatever they referred to them as.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor.

10 Did the civilian Croats who came to Mehurici, did they come

11 walking on foot by themselves or were they brought there by someone?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certain came on their own and some

13 came with members of the BiH Army because they were afraid of the

14 Mujahedin. They felt that they could be protected by the army members.

15 That's why they came with them.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is a bit unclear to me. You say that you

17 observed civilian Croatians arriving at Mehurici, some of them being

18 escorted by soldiers of the ABiH? Do you have any idea as to how this

19 came about? Where did they meet these soldiers?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose that people started

21 seeking shelter, and when they saw people from the BH Army, they joined

22 them because of all that, because they had learned that the Mujahedin were

23 on their way up there. And all they were saying was that they were afraid

24 of the Mujahedin and that's why they had arrived in Mehuric.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so they would have contacted these ABiH

Page 1098

1 soldiers at the places from which they fled and asked for protection and

2 escort up to Mehurici; is that how I'm to understand what you are saying?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is precisely what happened.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: And when they came to Mehurici, you told us that

5 they were accommodated in the school of Mehurici?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the gym, in the sports hall.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: And offered food and clothes or protection simply?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view of the things while I was

9 there they had food, they had some other provisions, some mattresses and

10 sleeping bags. It was the staff of the Civilian Protection in Mehuric who

11 provided that. It was within their purview to organise all that. The

12 people had food and shelter and everything.

13 The truth is the gym is not the most comfortable of places. A gym

14 is a gym. But in any case, they were safe there.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you remember approximately how many came over

16 those days?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there were some 200

18 of them. I can't give you the exact number. Even if I'd known the number

19 at the time, I wouldn't be able to recall it now.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Your answer is certainly sufficient.

21 Thank you very much, sir.

22 You may proceed, Mr. Neuner.

23 MR. NEUNER: I've just one question.

24 Q. The people who came to your school, were they armed?

25 A. No.

Page 1099

1 Q. And with regard to the people who were allegedly killed, was there

2 any indications whether these people had been armed before they were

3 killed?

4 A. I don't know. I can't answer your question.

5 MR. NEUNER: If please the map could be captured and admitted as

6 an exhibit.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please

8 be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 137.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. NEUNER: I think this is also a convenient time for a break.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

13 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, you are left with just about 11 minutes

18 or so from your estimated time.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, I'm told 26. Sorry.

21 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, I just want to ask you, the people where you heard who

23 were killed, do you know what happened to them before they were killed?

24 A. I wouldn't know.

25 Q. Do you know in which -- whether these people were also moving at

Page 1100

1 the time and then got killed at some point in time?

2 A. Rumours had it, although not correct, that they had been kidnapped

3 by some members of the BiH army, that there was something to that effect

4 going on.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the transcript, page

7 36, line 20, it says that the witness said that, "These people had been

8 kidnapped by members of the army." The witness said that "They were

9 kidnapped from." I hope that this is understood that it is

10 self-explanatory, that they were not kidnapped by the army members but

11 taken from the ranks of the army members.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that what the BiH original was saying?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness can clarify. He said

14 that they were kidnapped from the BiH army, and in the record it was

15 recorded that they were kidnapped by the BiH Army.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The word "snatched" or "kidnapped"

17 means that --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Means what?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The word "snatched" or "kidnapped"

20 means -- should I continue?


22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The word I mentioned means this:

23 Members of the army tried to protect them and take them to a safe place,

24 and they were kidnapped by the Mujahedin, the Arabs, whatever you want to

25 call them.

Page 1101

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: From that BH Army?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. They were not members of

3 the army.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You don't understand my question. Let's

5 leave it. They were kidnapped -- [Microphone not activated].

6 You may proceed, sir.


8 Q. Witness, you said members of the army tried to protect the persons

9 before they were kidnapped. From which army unit were the members who

10 tried to protect?

11 A. We have just touched upon that question. As far as I know and as

12 far as I heard, because I was not there to see those people with my own

13 eyes, I believe they were members of the army from the 1st Battalion.

14 This was never confirmed to me. At the end of the day, I was just

15 an officer, and I was never in charge of any investigations. I never

16 investigated the matter.

17 Q. And by "1st Battalion," you're referring to which brigade?

18 A. The 306th Brigade.

19 Q. Which was based in Mehurici at the school?

20 A. The 1st Battalion was in Mehuric.

21 Q. So what did the soldiers who tried to protect the persons do after

22 the kidnapping had happened?

23 A. I don't know. I never came in touch with these people. What I'm

24 telling you now is what I heard, something that was never confirmed.

25 Q. Did you try to verify this rumour or allegation?

Page 1102

1 A. There was no way for me to verify.

2 Q. Who was the highest person at Mehurici school at the time --

3 military person at the time you learned that information?

4 A. Those were all desk officers, because at the Command was split

5 into three parts. There were no higher-ranking officers there at the

6 time.

7 Q. Did you seek to inform some superior away from the school about

8 what you learned?

9 A. Well, only on the following day did the commander of the brigade

10 arrive, and the assistant commander for security. At the moment when they

11 arrived, I was standing in the corridor. I was talking to the assistant

12 commander. I tried telling him. He told me that he also had heard that

13 some crimes had heard that some crimes had taken place.

14 Q. Who is -- the assistant commander for security is Hasan Delalic

15 you're referring to?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, don't put the answer in the mouth of

18 the witness. Ask him who the assistant for security was, don't tell him

19 who he was.

20 MR. NEUNER: I wanted to save time. I apologise.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got to do the right thing.


23 Q. Was Mr. Delalic coming alone?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Who was with him?

Page 1103

1 A. The brigade commander was with him on that day. It was one or two

2 days after the outbreak of the conflict. On Day 1, they could not arrive.

3 Nobody in their right mind would have risked their lives to face all that

4 shooting.

5 Q. I just captured, on page 39, line 8, the word "Hasan Delalic."

6 Could you please state what the assistant for security of the

7 306th Brigade had for a name?

8 A. Asim Delalic.

9 Q. And until Mr. Delalic came to see you, did you have informed

10 anybody about what you learned?

11 A. There was nobody to inform. As I've already told you, the

12 communication was down with the brigade. The brigade was split into three

13 different parts in Krpeljici, Rudnik, one part in Mehuric, and the

14 officers who happened to be at their own homes when the conflict broke

15 out.

16 Q. And you just said, on line 39 -- on page 39, line 5, that the

17 assistant commander for security, Mr. Delalic, had already heard that some

18 crimes had taken place. What did he tell you when he came?

19 A. I tried informing him that some crimes had happened in the zone of

20 combat activities. He replied that he had also heard something to that

21 effect, and he also told me that he still didn't know what exactly had

22 happened, that it remained to be seen.

23 Q. And about what type of crime had he heard?

24 A. He heard of the crime, and he meant people who had been killed.

25 When I say "people," I mean men, women. I don't know exactly who was

Page 1104

1 killed.

2 Q. And did he know or have indications by whom they had been killed?

3 A. He did not say anything about that at that moment.

4 Q. Was there any discussion about verifying the rumours?

5 A. What time do you have in mind?

6 Q. Was there any discussion between Mr. Delalic and the brigade

7 commander about verifying the basis for these rumours that people had been

8 killed?

9 A. My conversation with the assistant commander was very short, and I

10 never exchanged a word with the commander. I only greeted him. And I

11 really don't know what kind of discussions they had afterwards.

12 Q. Did you receive a particular instruction?

13 A. I did not receive any particular instructions with this regard.

14 Delalic most probably took upon himself the responsibility of

15 investigating, of looking into the matter, into seeing what had happened.

16 I don't know what happened. He was the one with whom I left it.

17 Q. And what happened to the dead bodies?

18 A. Again, I wouldn't be able to answer because I was not there, and

19 second of all it was the Civilian Protection who were in charge of

20 cleaning the terrain after such events.

21 Q. Could the dead bodies not be an object of an investigation to find

22 out about the rumours?

23 A. I repeat again, I can't answer your question. I don't have any

24 information to that effect.

25 MR. NEUNER: I want to show you a document, PT number 1236, a

Page 1105

1 telegram dating from the 12th of June. It says, on the first line, from

2 the 306th Mountain Brigade for the 3rd Corps Command, and I just want to

3 read this second -- the last two sentences to you:

4 "There are indications of the execution of 20 captured civilians

5 and (illegible) and members of the HVO."

6 Does this sentence adequately reflect the view held within the

7 Military Security Service of the 306th Brigade on the 12th of June, 1993?

8 A. Could you please rephrase or repeat your question? I didn't quite

9 understand you.

10 Q. If I look at this sentence again, it talks about indications of an

11 execution of 20 captured civilians and members of the HVO.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might ask, Mr. Neuner, is the number of the

13 people killed in that incident not an agreed fact?

14 MR. NEUNER: Certainly it is, but what I'm trying to explore is

15 that, yeah, the word "execution" is mentioned here, and this is so far

16 also an important point, and it just reflects a contemporaneous document.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you trying to confirm whether they were

18 executed and not killed; are you making a distinction between the two

19 words?

20 MR. NEUNER: I'm not trying to make a distinction between it. I'm

21 just asking the witness what he knows, since he was in the area and was

22 also subject to these rumours, and I'm just asking him whether the content

23 of the document is adequate as he received it at the time.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's just my problem. This witness has just been

25 telling us hearsay about this incident from the beginning of his

Page 1106

1 testimony, and we've had people here who have testified who were on the

2 scene. I'm not quite sure what it is you want from this witness, really.

3 I've been sitting here the whole afternoon trying to find out why

4 this witness was called, and I can't find it. I couldn't see it even in

5 reading the statement.

6 You know, now, you're taking time to find out whether 20 civilians

7 and members of the HVO were executed, and I'm just wondering -- I'm trying

8 to find out what is it on that point you want to find out, you want to

9 establish?

10 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask that the witness be removed for a second,

11 please, before I give the answer? Does he read English? Does the witness

12 read English?

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: You should know.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can tell us.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 MR. NEUNER: Under these circumstances, may I ask the witness to

17 take the headphones down?

18 Your Honours, late in October this witness has authored a document

19 which is, to a certain extent, in contradiction to the text of that

20 document.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which document?

22 MR. NEUNER: Of the document which is in front of you right now.

23 He has personally signed that document. And what I'm trying to find out,

24 to explore, is whether the witness's knowledge back in June, directly

25 after the events, like here on the 12th of June, might have been different

Page 1107

1 so that he later changed, eventually, his opinion.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me find out, is this witness the author of this

3 telegram?

4 MR. NEUNER: There is another witness who will come who is the

5 witness's superior, and he has met his superior, as we just heard, one or

6 two days after the events.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the answer to my question?

8 MR. NEUNER: He's not the author of it --


10 MR. NEUNER: -- but he's part of the Military Security Service,

11 which is, so to speak, involved in conducting measures or could be

12 involved in conducting measures to find out and verify the rumours about

13 what is going on.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's told you there's no way he could verify.

15 MR. NEUNER: Yes, but he might confirm that the content of that

16 document is adequate because he at the time also heard the rumours, and

17 that is all that I'm trying to establish; the basis of what he knew in

18 June, and later on try to ask him why he changed his mind in October.

19 That is all that I'm trying to establish, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Neuner.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just add, then, before the witness takes on

22 his earphones, that if anything here is interesting, it should be the last

23 sentence.

24 MR. NEUNER: I was coming to the last sentence as well, but I

25 thought there are one or two words in the first statement which I tried to

Page 1108

1 explore with this witness first, and I will come then very quickly to the

2 second -- to the last sentence.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed.

4 MR. NEUNER: I will try to make it brief.

5 Q. Witness, my first question is: Having just read this sentence

6 for you, does this -- does the fact -- is that a correct description in

7 this document that on the 12th of June, indications of an execution of

8 about 20 persons existed?

9 A. First of all, I did not see this document. Second of all, we

10 heard from the people who had crossed over. This was the main indication.

11 Later on, it turned out that they had been executed by the Mujahedin and

12 that no members of the army took part in that.

13 Q. Okay. But in essence, whoever was executing these men, it turned

14 out that they had been executed; is that what you're saying now?

15 A. Whether they were executed or how they were killed, it all boils

16 down to the fact that they were killed, they were dead.

17 Q. And the sentence also mentioned that the 20 persons were captured,

18 so captured persons had been executed. Were these the indications you had

19 or you heard at the time?

20 A. I heard nothing of any prisoners. I only heard later on that some

21 Croats had been kidnapped, but I don't think that they were ever

22 imprisoned, they were ever turned into prisoners.

23 Q. Then the next sentence says that an investigation is pending on

24 the 12th of June because the document dates from the 12th of June. Do you

25 know that an investigation was pending at that time?

Page 1109

1 A. After the events, Asim Delalic took all that upon himself, and he

2 was the one who pursued the matter.

3 Q. You were not involved?

4 A. No.

5 MR. NEUNER: I want to move on to the next document. The PT

6 number is --

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, before we let this document go, I

8 did not fully understand who sent the telegram and who was it addressed

9 to.

10 MR. NEUNER: I read this in the record, Your Honours. It says, in

11 the very first line, that it's sent from the 306th Brigade to the

12 3rd Corps.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 306th.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But we have no indication of who in the 306th

15 Mountain Brigade, who actually sent it. I mean, the witness says he

16 doesn't know anything of this telegram, and I'm just trying to

17 ascertain --

18 MR. NEUNER: The witness has confirmed that Mr. Delalic may have

19 been or was involved in the investigation, and he has also talked about

20 the fact that an execution may have occurred, according to the rumours,

21 and instead of the word "captured" he said"kidnapped."

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't it then better to ask Mr. Delalic about this

23 document rather than ask the witness who knows nothing about it? And

24 you're saying this telegram was from the 306th Mountain Brigade, and it

25 was going to the 3rd Corps. Why is it that the conclusion, where the seal

Page 1110

1 is -- or that's the seal of the recipient. Okay, I can see that. That's

2 fine. But my first question then stands. Isn't the appropriate witness

3 to deal with this document the person who was involved in investigations,

4 Mr. Delalic rather than this witness, who has told you several times this

5 afternoon that he was not involved in investigations?

6 MR. NEUNER: Can I just have a moment to confer, Your Honours?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. NEUNER: Can I please ask that the witness takes off his

10 headphones again?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, will you please take off your headphones.

12 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, Mr. Delalic will indeed talk about this

13 document when he later comes, but in October this very witness is

14 authoring a document which, so to speak, is authored for Mr. Delalic, and

15 both men were, so to speak, working close together. And therefore they're

16 talking -- this witness will talk, in this October document, about the

17 investigation in its entirety and about the result itself. So one cannot

18 assess the weight of the one document by seeing the other in combination

19 with it, and I'm just trying to get this witness's opinion about both

20 documents so that Your Honours can assess it.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, sir, this witness has told you this afternoon,

22 when you put this document on the screen, that he has never seen this

23 document before. Isn't it therefore appropriate to ask this witness about

24 what he authored in October --

25 MR. NEUNER: I will do so --

Page 1111

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- and then ask Mr. Delalic, when he comes, to

2 reconcile what he instructed this witness to write in October with what he

3 received here, if this was received by Mr. Delalic? This witness --

4 you're asking this witness to do something to a document he knows

5 absolutely nothing about. He's seeing this document for the first time

6 today. That's his testimony.

7 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, we have shown this witness the document

8 on occasion of his statements, and he has made some comments about it, and

9 we have -- I tried to explore certain things about the document, and I

10 believe the witness has confirmed certain parts of it. I was already

11 moving on to the next document. I'm two documents away from being done.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't dispute that.

13 MR. NEUNER: And I wasn't trying to go back to this document,

14 Your Honour. I'm prepared to proceed as you wish.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Understand though, sir, that the Trial Chamber is

16 faced, once it gets out of this court, with making sense of what this

17 document is in relation to this witness, and if we can't see that sense

18 now, we are likely never going to see it later.

19 Now, notwithstanding your explanations, I still don't see the

20 sense.

21 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, I'm prepared to proceed, to conclude

22 soon.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And I don't mean to interfere

24 with what you are leading, but I would like to follow what you are saying

25 and what you are doing.

Page 1112

1 MR. NEUNER: Can I at least ask that the document is marked for

2 identification, Your Honours?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. May the document be marked for

4 identification, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

6 identification MFI 138.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. NEUNER: The next document is PT1443, dating from 3 of August,

9 1993.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say "PT1" --

11 MR. NEUNER: "... 443". The document refers to a visit of

12 Mr. Merdan and Father Stjepan in paragraph 1 of it, and Mr. Fusko is

13 referred to in paragraph 4(a) of this document.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1113











11 Page 1113 redacted. Private session















Page 1114

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

13 MR. NEUNER: Please, the last exhibit, PT1584 is being shown.

14 Q. Do you recognise the signature, Mr. Fusko?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Whose signature is this?

17 A. Mine.

18 Q. And you're sending this document to the 3rd Corps and the

19 Operations Group Bosanska Krajina, the military security organs there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you explain how you came to draft that document?

22 A. This document was draft pursuant to a request that had to have

23 been sent to us. I consulted with Asim Delalic. I asked him what we were

24 supposed to do. He told me to draft a report; i.e., information to say

25 that the BiH Army had not committed any criminal offences, that nothing of

Page 1115

1 the sort had been done by members of the BiH Army.

2 Q. Is that fair to say that you received an instruction to put that

3 information in?

4 A. Yes, yes. It was already two or three months after the event, and

5 I received instruction from Delalic. He was absent.

6 Q. And were you in a position to question that instruction, to set it

7 aside if needed?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Did you perform any investigation to come to that conclusion or to

10 follow up on that instruction?

11 A. I followed up on the instruction of my superior. He told me what

12 to do, and I did it.

13 Q. So how did you follow up?

14 A. What do you mean, how I followed this up? Can you be more

15 specific, please?

16 Q. Did you write down what he said, or did you do any investigation,

17 any investigative steps?

18 A. No, no, I was not authorised to take any investigative steps. I

19 could only have done those based on Delalic's instructions, not otherwise.

20 Q. With regard to the --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, let me understand something here, sir.

22 Witness, are you saying what is written on this document was what

23 you were instructed to write by Delalic, or he just told you to write

24 something and these are your own words and ideas?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I received instructions

Page 1116

1 from Delalic, and I followed the instructions.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What were the instructions?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you exactly, but there

4 was an inquiry, a prior inquiry, whether there -- Croats had been killed,

5 and there was a time limit for the answer. Delalic was absent. I asked

6 him what to do. He told me to write that there were some dead people who

7 had been killed during combat, that they were Croats.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: He told you those words that you must write? You

9 must write that there were dead people who were Croats?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he told you to say that they were killed during

12 combat?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that they were killed in combat

14 activities.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 You may proceed, sir.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] A question, sir, if I may,

18 Witness.

19 During combat activities against whom?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the BiH army and the HVO.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Neuner.


24 Q. Just a question relating to some of the details mentioned in that

25 document. For example, it says, in the third-last sentence:

Page 1117

1 "They were all dressed in uniforms."

2 Was this part of the instruction you had, or did you have any

3 physical evidence to that effect that prompted you to write this?

4 A. This was upon Delalic's instructions. He was the one in charge of

5 the matter. I never investigated the matter. I was never in charge.

6 Q. And it talks here about a burial location, Pjescara. Can I ask

7 you, how did you get that information?

8 A. From Delalic. I asked him what I should say, which places I

9 should mention. He told me that these persons could be found in the

10 Pjescara sector, which is a part between Maline and Bikosi.

11 Q. If I show you a map, would you know where that place is?

12 A. I sincerely doubt that you can show it on any map. It is a very

13 small place between Maline and Bikosi. It would occupy not more than a

14 tiny little millimetre on a map, so it's very difficult to show on a map,

15 I believe.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before you leave the subject, can we just ask the

17 witness if you were involved in the burial of these 25 bodies?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you have followed my words

19 closely, I mentioned that no members of the army participated in the

20 burial of these bodies. It was the Civilian Protection that was in charge

21 of the sanitation of the ground.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I noticed that, but my question was whether you

23 had been involved somehow in the burial.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


Page 1118


2 Q. Would you be in a position to indicate at least the area where

3 Pjescara would be located?

4 A. On the map?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes. Yes, show me the map.

7 MR. NEUNER: If we could please use the from Map 10 from the Court

8 binder, the bottom half of it.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go to Map 10 --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you go to Map 10, what do we do with that

12 document, PT1584?

13 MR. NEUNER: If this could please be tendered into evidence,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: PT1584 will be admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 140.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Now we have Map 10 on the screen.


21 Q. Could you indicate where that location is?

22 A. It's approximately here [marks]. I know the place is called

23 Pjescara.

24 Q. Could you mark a "1" next to it, please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 1119

1 Q. Thank you. What does the area look like that you have just

2 encircled?

3 A. Well, it's a mountain pass between Bikosi and the Gornje Maline,

4 and people used to dig sand here. It's not real sand but that's why it's

5 called "Pjescara," meaning "the sand pit," and they used that sand for --

6 as building material. That's how the place got its name.

7 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. Could this map please be tendered?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

9 be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be exhibit number 141.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. Mr. Fusko, you stayed until March 1995 in the Military Security

14 Service of the 306th Brigade. My question is: Was, at any point in time,

15 an exhumation conducted?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Was there any time an on-site investigation by your Military

18 Security Service conducted in the place called Pjescara?

19 A. As far as I know, no. Whether someone in the higher superior

20 command did something about it, I wouldn't know.

21 Q. My last question is: In October, when you wrote this report, did

22 you have any witness statements or documents emanating out of

23 Mr. Delalic's investigation which helped you drafting the report?

24 A. No, the report was written after consulting him. I didn't have

25 any report about that.

Page 1120

1 Q. And did you have any witness statements dealing with the incident

2 in Bikosi?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. Any documents from Mr. Delalic being sent to the 1st Battalion of

5 the 306th Mountain Brigade to inquire about this incident?

6 A. I didn't have any such documents available. Delalic probably

7 issued oral orders to that effect.

8 Q. Did you find any documents authored by Mr. Delalic who were sent

9 to the 3rd Corps about this, other than your own report, I mean, talking

10 about the investigation?

11 A. No, no.

12 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

15 Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours. I

17 needed a little time.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fusko.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I will be questioning you on

22 behalf of the Defence of General Rasim Delic.

23 Today, in the course of your testimony, I understood you to say

24 that you had grown up in Central Bosnia.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1121

1 Q. The village of Dub?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you completed the secondary school for metallurgy in Travnik?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That school did not provide you with any military knowledge, did

6 it?

7 A. No, none whatsoever.

8 Q. Mr. Fusko, if I may ask you, could you please pause between my

9 question and your answer for the sake of the record?

10 A. All right.

11 Q. I understood you to say that when doing your regular military

12 service, you only received very basic military training. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were not trained to do military police work at all, were you?

15 A. No, I wasn't, that's correct.

16 Q. In the course of your career before the war, you had no contact

17 whatsoever with police work?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. You never worked on any kind of investigation until you were

20 appointed to the security organ of the 306th Brigade?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. And this was in May 1993; is that correct?

23 A. In April, in March or April, I was transferred to the security in

24 the brigade command.

25 Q. Thank you for clarifying this. In other words, I understood you

Page 1122

1 to say that you were given the military task of working on security

2 matters without having had any experience in this area.

3 A. Precisely so.

4 Q. And in regard to your lack of experience, you were not an

5 exception in the 306th Brigade?

6 A. In the 306th Brigade, it was not only I who was appointed in this

7 manner, but I think only three or four men had any knowledge of military

8 doctrine. There were only three or four such men.

9 Q. Thank you. And the brigade had about 1.700 men?

10 A. Well, I couldn't give you the precise figure, but it was around

11 that number, between 1.500, 1.700.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Asim Delalic, your superior, the assistant for

13 security affairs in the 306th Brigade, also had no military knowledge; am

14 I correct?

15 A. It's my opinion he was not trained, except that he served in the

16 former JNA as a military policeman, as far as I know, but only a military

17 policeman.

18 Q. Thank you. Not a single person working on security matters in the

19 306th Brigade was trained to carry out these tasks; am I right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the whole brigade had only one lawyer; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that was Mr. Haris Jusic, was it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But Mr. Haris Jusic also had no experience in investigations; am I

Page 1123

1 correct?

2 A. Yes. Jusic was only a lawyer who had worked in a company as a

3 lawyer before the war.

4 Q. And now, very briefly, I'll put a few questions about your

5 brigade.

6 The 306th Brigade throughout 1993 operated on the principle of a

7 village army; am I correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that in early 1993, the conditions in which the brigade

10 was created were very poor; is that correct?

11 A. Certainly.

12 Q. The 3rd Corps, you said, issued an order for the brigade to be

13 established in late 1993?

14 A. Yes, that's how it happened.

15 Q. This order from the higher command were not immediately complied

16 with by all villages; for example, Gluha Bukovica, they simply did not

17 want to be part of the 306th; then they went and joined the 314th?

18 A. Yes, Gluha Bukovica and I think the village of Zagradje or part of

19 it.

20 Q. Thank you. So you will agree that all of 1993 was a year in which

21 there was chaos in your area when this brigade was being formed; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes. In my opinion that's how it was.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to show you a

25 document.

Page 1124

1 Your Honours, could the document D113 be shown.

2 Q. Mr. Fusko, when the document shows up on the screen, please take a

3 look at it.

4 And, Your Honours, can we zoom in a little bit, so the witness can

5 see.

6 This document is a document issued by your brigade, the 306th, and

7 it's dated the 8th of January, 1993. It is a report from the security

8 organ, and it was signed by Mr. Delalic, whom you mentioned today.

9 My question is the following: You may not have seen this

10 document --

11 A. No, I've never seen it before.

12 Q. -- but I want to ask you something about the facts mentioned in

13 it. The document speaks about the situation becoming more complex in

14 1993, and it says the leadership of locals who held meetings and promised

15 the soldiers zones of responsibility above their villages, and then it

16 mentions insufficient information among the soldiers on the ground. Do

17 you see that, insufficient weapons and equipment for the brigade?

18 A. Yes. Certainly, that's how it was.

19 Q. And then you have this long paragraph, the one before the last,

20 and it says: To be true, there are many cases of soldiers refusing to go

21 to position. This problem is currently being resolved by the military

22 soldiers bringing soldiers in and sending them to positions, and there

23 have been many cases of military custody being imposed as a disciplinary

24 measure."

25 Witness, it's correct, is it not, that this document reflects the

Page 1125

1 situation on the ground?

2 A. I don't know how to explain this. This text shows everything.

3 There was a situation of chaos. People didn't understand what an army

4 was. In our opinion and according to our information, this was done

5 because people were poor, there was a lack of uniforms, a lack of weapons,

6 so people went to other brigades, as you just mentioned, the 314th, for

7 example.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

9 Your Honours, I wish to tender this document.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be exhibit number 142.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, you have just seen the document which shows that the

15 military police of the brigade tried to restore order; am I right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In your previous testimony, you've told us that only 20 members or

18 around 20 members of the military police were part of your unit?

19 A. I don't know exactly. It was not a full platoon, some 20 or so.

20 Q. None of them had weapons, did they?

21 A. It happened on a number of occasions that military policemen went

22 to bring somebody in, sharing one pistol or one rifle between two or three

23 of them.

24 Q. It is true, is it not, that the commander of the 306th Brigade,

25 with the few military policemen that they had, could not prevent this lack

Page 1126

1 of discipline and people leaving the brigade?

2 A. You're right in saying that.

3 Q. Now, I would like to ask you something about the military

4 situation in that area.

5 Your Honours, before I show the witness the document, I would like

6 to remind him of one part of his evidence.

7 You said that the Bila Valley was intersected -- it is the valley

8 of the Bila River, is it not; am I right?

9 A. Yes, you're right.

10 Q. It was broken up into four or five different regions by the HVO

11 blockades?

12 A. Yes, starting with Stari Bila, Old Bila, and another one in there

13 was a check-point there. There was a check-point in Baj [phoen], another

14 one in Logor, one in Gornje Maline, and so on and so forth.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

16 witness to be shown D114. This is a daily operations report of the 306th

17 Brigade, dating 9 May 1993.

18 Q. Witness, I'm going to read to you a small part of this document.

19 You can follow it on the screen yourself. Under number 2, it says -- "The

20 Aggressor," under number 1, and under number 2, it says "The HVO." Please

21 look at that second part. It says here:

22 "On the 9th of May 1993, the HVO members continue to hold

23 check-points and do not allow cars or civilians to pass. They confiscate

24 motor vehicles."

25 Is all this correct?

Page 1127

1 A. Yes, indeed, that's how it was.

2 Q. Now I would like the Trial Chamber to understand. Please,

3 Witness, help me. It is true, is it not, that the brigade itself was

4 broken up, that it did not function as a single unity?

5 A. To the Prosecutor's question, I answered that the brigade was

6 divided into three or even more parts. So the functioning of the brigade

7 was extremely difficult.

8 Q. And now I would like to ask you something else, please.

9 The brigade command did not function as one body for at least up

10 to the 18th of June, 1993, after these combat activities?

11 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you the date, but it didn't function.

12 It may have started functioning maybe ten days after that, I wouldn't be

13 sure about the date. In any case, it took some ten days for the

14 brigade -- or rather the brigade command to merge.

15 Q. Some of the parts had been in Krpeljici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Others in Han Bila?

18 A. Not in Han Bila, but in Bila or in Han Runig [phoen] which is some

19 two and a half kilometres from Han Bila. Some call it Han Bila, but the

20 real name is the Bila Mine. It was located in the premises of the mine.

21 .

22 Q. So the brigade command was split, it was not one body; am I right

23 in saying that?

24 A. Yes, you are.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 1128

1 Your Honours, I would like to tender this exhibit. Can it be

2 given a number, please?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be exhibit number 143.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, I would like to show you another document which concerns

9 the event in the area where you resided.

10 Your Honours, could the witness please be shown document D115.

11 This is a telegram. The sender is the 306th Brigade, and the telegram was

12 sent to the 3rd Corps.

13 Your Honours -- witness, please, can you look at the first page?

14 I would like the witness to be immediately shown the second page

15 of this document to help us clarify a fact. Can the witness please be

16 shown the second page of the Bosnian version.

17 Witness, it says in the document "Gabela 710." Can you tell us

18 what this means? What is "Gabela 710", if you know?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then, Your Honours, can

21 the witness be shown the first page of this document again?

22 I will focus your attention to a small part of this document,

23 where it says in the second line of this document:

24 "On Tuesday and Wednesday the HVO and the Chetniks negotiated in

25 the Vlasic sector, after which the shelling of Zenica and Mehuric, and so

Page 1129

1 did the aggressor of an infantry fired, the HVO is grouping in the

2 sectors," and so on and so forth.

3 Witness, can you please clarify the following? This will also

4 appear in other documents. The aggressor is the word that people in your

5 neck of the woods used for the Serb forces; am I right in saying that?

6 A. Yes, you're right. The aggressor was mentioned as the Serb forces

7 that were on the Vlasic plateau.

8 Q. Thank you. "The Chetniks" is another expression that was used for

9 the Serb forces; am I right?

10 A. You are right.

11 Q. Please, according to what you know, the document bears the date

12 the 2nd of June, 1993. Did you know at the time that the Serb and Croat

13 forces cooperated and mounted joint attacks against your area at the

14 beginning of June 1993?

15 A. I did not have any direct knowledge to that effect. And I don't

16 know who sent this telegram. I heard from the local population stories

17 that the Serb and Montenegrin aggressor, as we called it at the time, and

18 the HVO members would meet usually at the contact points in the Vlasic

19 plateau. I can't confirm that I ever saw that, that I ever witnessed

20 that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: One moment, please.

22 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

23 MR. NEUNER: I don't wish to interrupt my learned colleague, but

24 she has put a question, and this is line -- page 67, line 18 -- sorry,

25 line 16, referring to the 2nd of June, 1993, and if I look at the document

Page 1130

1 which is currently shown to the witness -- I just noticed that the

2 translation is wrong. The translation said "22nd of June," which is

3 displayed on the screen, and then it's a translation error.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't see this "22nd of June" even on the

5 translation.

6 MR. NEUNER: It's in the middle under "Date." It says: "22nd of

7 June," while the original, I apologise --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can somebody point to "Date" on that.

9 MR. NEUNER: On the heading, there is a box saying "Heading." It

10 says "306 Mountain Brigade." Below there, "Heading." Below the word

11 "Heading" it says "Filed" and then "Date," and then it says, "22nd of

12 June," and I was reading from that translation.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the correct date?

14 MR. NEUNER: The correct date is 2nd of June, as my learned

15 colleague has stated. I was just confused, myself.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where do you see the 2nd of June or can you

17 here?

18 MR. NEUNER: In the original, it says 2nd of June. I apologise.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

20 You may proceed, ma'am.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, earlier today, in answering my learned friend's questions

23 about the events in Maline in June -- Your Honours, I apologise. Can this

24 exhibit be given an exhibit number before I move on to my next question?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. Before we

Page 1131

1 do so, Judge Lattanzi is pointing at something.

2 Would you like to say something, Judge?

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: It is clear for me.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Do you have an objection to the admission of this document, sir?

7 MR. NEUNER: Yes, Your Honour. To the Prosecution, the basis of

8 admitting this document into evidence is not clear because the witness has

9 said he doesn't recognise the document, or he has never seen it, and then

10 on page 67, line 19, he says: "I can't confirm that I ever saw that,

11 that I ever witnessed that." So the basis on which my learned colleague

12 wishes to tender this into evidence is unclear to the Prosecution.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may respond.

14 I asked the witness about the facts that are stated in here, and I

15 also asked him about cooperation between the Serb and Croat forces on the

16 ground. The witness confirmed that he had heard about that cooperation

17 from the local population, and this is the basis for the admission of this

18 document into evidence.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, can I just, for clarification, ask

21 you about the basis upon which you seek to have this document admitted

22 because in the transcript it reads that you asked him about cooperation

23 between the Serb and Croat forces on the ground, but the document, I

24 think, does not speak of any cooperation. It says that there were

25 negotiations in Vlasica, but other than that, I don't see any reference to

Page 1132

1 cooperation, and so, yes, can you please clarify?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the way I understand

3 the document is that the two sides negotiated in the Vlasic sector, after

4 which the shelling of Zenica and Mehurici ensued. At this moment, you may

5 not find it clear. However, in order for heavy artillery shells to reach

6 Zenica, they had to be used by the Serbs.

7 Your Honours, it's no problem for me to withdraw this document and

8 use it with another witness to avoid wasting time, but this time I have to

9 say this: Your Honours, the witness has declined any knowledge about

10 certain documents and declined having seen the document, and still the

11 Prosecutor tendered all these documents for admission and these documents

12 were given numbers for identification or were admitted. It's no problem

13 for me to withdraw this document, Your Honours, but I don't think it's

14 fair.

15 Let me make myself even more clear. It is not fair to raise an

16 objection being aware of the fact that the witness said for some of their

17 documents, that he did not see them, that he did not know anything about

18 them, and still they were tendered for admission. And then an objection

19 is raised to a document of which the witness said that he did know

20 something about the things that are mentioned in the document, and still

21 an objection is raised about an admission of such a document.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: You will realise, Ms. Vidovic, that the decisions

23 on admissions of documents are extremely complicated, and they are not,

24 therefore, easy to make.

25 The rule we have tried to establish sets out that there has to be

Page 1133

1 a relation between the witness and the document so that means that the

2 witness must have either seen the document, or must have signed it, or

3 must know about it. And if he doesn't recognise the document at all, then

4 at least he shall be able to offer testimony about facts which are

5 included in the document, and on this basis I guess we could probably

6 admit the document into evidence. But, you see, this is a bit of a

7 borderline case because the document doesn't exactly speak about the

8 evidence that the witness gave, so we had questions.

9 But if you're withdrawing the document and seek to introduce it

10 through another witness, I think that would be the best thing to do.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you withdraw it, Madam Vidovic, I just want

12 to add something.

13 I think we need to be a little more correct about what we say

14 about what has happened. There are two exhibits of the Prosecution which

15 have been marked for identification this afternoon precisely because there

16 was no clear basis for admitting them into evidence, and that was Exhibit

17 MFI 138 and MFI 139. So maybe you are aware of others where there was no

18 such definite relationship that was established, they may have slipped

19 through the fingers, but those -- definitely those two exhibits were not

20 admitted into evidence precisely because the basis had not been

21 established.

22 So it's not as if that there is a preferential treatment of the

23 Prosecution here, unless you're talking about unfairness on the part of

24 your fellow -- your colleagues on the opposite side by standing up to

25 object. But I would encourage you not to withdraw this document or rather

Page 1134

1 at best I suggest that you have it marked for identification, if you still

2 have another witness to deal with it. Would that be okay? Let's do it

3 that, so then.

4 The document is marked -- may it please be marked for

5 identification and could it please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 144.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic. I'm sorry about that.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Madam. We have gone far beyond the

11 time for a break.

12 Is it a convenient time for you, or did you want to tie up

13 something before we go?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, this is a

15 convenient moment. I just wanted to say that the unfairness I mentioned

16 was referring to my learned friends, not the Bench. I just wanted to make

17 that clear.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I thought I'd heard you say

19 so too.

20 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to. I'm sorry we have

21 taken ten minutes of the time, but we'll just have to do with 20 minutes.

22 Thank you very much. Court adjourned.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

Page 1135

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Mr. Fusko, we talked about that part of your testimony which

3 referred to events in early June 1993. You mentioned that the event

4 connected with Maline happened between the 7th and 9th of June, or at

5 least that's what I understood you to say. Is this correct?

6 A. I can't be very precise about the date.

7 Q. Thank you. In fact, this event of the 8th of June was preceded by

8 fierce attacks by the HVO on the Muslim population of Central Bosnia as a

9 whole; is that correct?

10 A. I don't know what you meant by "attacks."

11 Q. I am referring to attacks by the Croatian Defence Council.

12 A. Roads had already been closed. That is some kind of maltreatment,

13 because people were penned in by those check-points.

14 Q. Did you know of an attack on some Muslim villages in the areas of

15 Maline, in the Maline area, before these events? Does the name of Velika

16 Bukovica village mean anything to you?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

19 shown document D116.

20 Q. Witness, this is a telegram sent by the 306th Brigade. It's dated

21 the 5th of June, 1993. It's brief. Again, it says "Gabala 210" and it's

22 addressed to the commander of the 3rd Corps, and it says:

23 "UNPROFOR should come to Velika Bukovica. There is one person

24 seriously wounded. Ricice village is encircled and under attack."

25 My question about the fact mentioned in this document is as

Page 1136

1 follows: Were you aware that the village of Ricice [realtime transcript

2 read in error"Kruscica"] was encircled and attacked on the 5th of June a

3 little before these in 1993?

4 A. At that time, I was at the forward command post at Vlasic, so I

5 did not have any detailed information. But as I said a little earlier,

6 you would hear things from people, from soldiers, who saw these things and

7 then were at the line.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that -- or rather you don't know anything

9 about the events in Bukovica. All right. Thank you, Witness.

10 Your Honour, on page 74, line 13, there's a mistake. Instead of

11 "Ricice" it says "Kruscica." Let's clarify this. I asked the witness

12 about the village of Ricice.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let the record show, then, that it is "Ricice" and

14 not "Kruscica."

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will not seek to tender this

16 document. I will put some -- the document can be put away.

17 Q. Witness, I will put a question concerning your testimony about the

18 Arabs, the Arabic fighters. You say that you saw them for the first time

19 in the autumn of 1992; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At that time, you were able to observe that they were helping the

22 local population, giving them food, for example? Were you able to observe

23 that?

24 A. At that time?

25 Q. In the autumn of 1992.

Page 1137

1 A. Not at that time, but later on, maybe during the winter some of

2 our people joined them, and then they were given food, weapons,

3 equipment. But not right away, not as soon as they arrived.

4 Q. All right. If I say to you that they distributed food to the

5 local Muslim population, to refugees, for example, that would be correct,

6 would it not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you will agree that the Mujahedin very soon gained the favour

9 of the local population?

10 A. In my opinion, yes, but I couldn't tell you how many people

11 thought well of them.

12 Q. I won't ask you that. But testifying about the relations between

13 the Mujahedin and your brigade, you said that your brigade did not

14 cooperate with them; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you had no communication?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In fact, it was very difficult to communicate with them because

19 there was a language barrier, first of all; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You will agree that the Bosnian population -- that very few people

22 in Bosnia speak Arabic; am I right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Only Muslim clerics, hodjas, imams?

25 A. Not even all of them; although, they know a little Arabic. But

Page 1138

1 not all imams speak Arabic.

2 Q. Very well. There were a few people who studied in Arabic

3 countries?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But these were few and far between in Bosnia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, not a single Arab was a member

8 of your brigade?

9 A. I'm a hundred per cent certain that no Arab was a member of

10 my brigade.

11 Q. Today the Prosecutor showed you a document concerning people going

12 over from your brigade to joining the Arabs, that is.

13 Your Honours, I'm referring to Document D135, and I would like the

14 witness to see it again. I'm referring to Exhibit 135. It's already been

15 admitted into evidence.

16 Please put page 2 of the document on the ELMO. That's page 1.

17 Could we see page 2, please.

18 In connection with this document, I'll ask you the following:

19 It's correct, is it not, that the 306th Brigade simply did not tolerate

20 these people going over; am I right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The 306th Brigade tried to prevent this; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, but without success.

24 Q. Quite simply, the Arabs did not allow the military police to enter

25 the camp; isn't that right?

Page 1139

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there was nothing you could do about it; is that right?

3 A. Nothing, absolutely nothing, unless we were to enter into a

4 conflict with them.

5 Q. Witness, when you mentioned the conflict, do you agree that at

6 that time your population and your members of the army were already

7 fighting two enemies; am I right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That would mean that at that point in time, in the same area, you

10 would be taking on a third enemy?

11 A. Well, as you mentioned a little while ago had we tried to bring in

12 those people who left with them, common sense tells us that a third front

13 would have had to be opened up.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now I would like to go back to this

15 particular document. Please take a look on page 2, where the 306th

16 Brigade mentions the difficulties, the failure of men to turn up at the

17 positions, and you say that the judiciary did not assist you. So please

18 try to recall that situation. You are --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you don't mind, can we just hold

20 that question? I just want to get clarity on the previous answer.

21 Witness, when you say "Had we tried to bring in those people who

22 left with them. Common sense tells us that a third front would have had

23 to have been opened up," what do you mean? Who are these people, and

24 bring them where to?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to people who left

Page 1140

1 the brigade on their own initiative in order to join the Arabs. I'm

2 speaking of Bosnian people.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who had decided to leave there, the brigade --

4 okay, thank you very much. I have it. You may continue with your

5 question, ma'am. The question was the judiciary not helping. Thank you

6 very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, let's clarify. Did I understand correctly that members

9 of the brigade who left of their own accord, if you wanted to get them

10 back, you would have had to enter into a conflict with the Arabs?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And for you, that would have been a third front in that area; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now to go back to this document, please look at the bottom half of

16 this second page. It says:

17 "We can see from this information that not a single judgement has

18 been issued in the Bila River valley, and the knowing about the

19 inefficiency of the judiciary, soldiers are often committing offences

20 bearing criminal responsibility."

21 Witness, you are involved in security. It's correct, is it not,

22 that in that period you wrote out numerous criminal reports and complaints

23 to the judiciary?

24 A. Well, after the events, not in this period but later on.

25 Q. When?

Page 1141

1 A. Well, in the period starting in July or August of the same year

2 maybe, and then for another year, so two years, more or less, in all.

3 Q. Very well. This document is entitled -- or rather is dated the

4 11th of May, 1993, and it says here that you do not have the support of

5 the judiciary. In other words, I assume that before that, you had

6 submitted criminal reports. But if you don't know anything about that,

7 say so.

8 A. I don't know. I know I worked on criminal reports afterwards in

9 August or September. That was when I first started doing that kind of

10 work.

11 Q. Very well. But let me ask you the following: It's correct, is

12 it not, that your brigade, let's say during the second half of 1993, wrote

13 many criminal reports to the judiciary, and the prosecutor simply sent

14 them back saying they were not properly written?

15 A. I think you're right because criminal reports were sent back and

16 never dealt with.

17 Q. You were told that they could not use them because they contained

18 insufficient information and were not professionally compiled?

19 A. Yes, because we didn't have evidence and so the court rejected

20 them.

21 Q. Was it the court or the prosecutor; do you know?

22 A. Well, I couldn't say it was the court, but who within the court, I

23 can't explain.

24 Q. You don't know that; all right. Now, let me ask you the

25 following: It's correct, is it not, that this problem of criminal

Page 1142

1 reports being sent back was discussed at very serious meetings in Travnik;

2 do you know anything about this?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 Q. All right, thank you. The Prosecutor asked you about people going

5 over. You don't exclude the possibility that this happened after the

6 order was issued on the establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

7 A. I didn't understand your question, Madam.

8 Q. All right, I'll repeat it. You were asked about people going over

9 from the 306th Brigade. You don't exclude the possibility that the

10 brigade accepted this retroactively after the El Mujahedin Detachment was

11 established; do you know that?

12 A. Well, it's my opinion that this might have been at the end of

13 August or in early September when they stopped talking about bringing

14 those people in or, rather, getting them back. Whether somebody gave

15 approval for them to remain with the El Mujahedin, I don't know.

16 Q. Before that, there was a discussion of these people having to come

17 back?

18 A. Well, that was a daily problem.

19 Q. Thank you. And now I ask you to clarify something about the

20 school in Mehurici. You lived near that school. It's correct, is it not,

21 that the Mujahedin abandoned their accommodation in the school in Mehurici

22 when that battalion of the 306th Brigade moved into the school?

23 A. Yes. They moved out to the camp in Poljanice, and they had room

24 again on the third floor or in the attic, where they would occasionally

25 come but not often.

Page 1143

1 Q. There was some food there, logistics?

2 A. Food, for the most part.

3 Q. Today you spoke in detail about how it was very difficult to get

4 information from the Arabs; am I right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You, yourself, said that you personally could not tell the Arabs

7 apart, they all looked alike?

8 A. Yes, they all looked alike, for the most part. They were

9 dark-skinned, they wore long beards.

10 Q. So you are no exception; people -- local people could not

11 distinguish among them, they couldn't say who was from Egypt, who was from

12 Algeria, they called them all Arabs?

13 A. Yes. People call them Arabs, Mujahedin, but mostly they were

14 referred to as Arabs.

15 Q. You said that at one point in time an order was issued for the

16 El Mujahedin Detachment to be established, and I want to ask you the

17 following about this: If I were to say that in Central Bosnia and in

18 your area there were Arabs who never joined El Mujahedin, would you accept

19 that or would you say you don't know?

20 A. Well, I would accept that, but I would say it was a very small

21 percentage.

22 Q. What do you mean?

23 A. Well, there were individual Arabs who, after a year or more, were

24 not under the control either of the army or the El Mujahedin Detachment.

25 On one occasion, I was given the task to make sure that a mass could be

Page 1144

1 celebrated, so I went to in front of their camp, where I was met by one of

2 their people, I think they said he was an emir, I'm not sure what their

3 titles were, but that was already 1995, and they said that they could

4 answer for their men except for one called Abu Hamza in Guca Gora. I think

5 that's what you were asking me about.

6 Q. So in that narrow area of Guca Gora, for example, there were Arabs

7 who were not members of El Mujahedin?

8 A. Well, I know only about this one who was in Guca Gora.

9 Q. You testified about Croat civilians who were accommodated in the

10 school in Mehurici. You said that they left the school. Do you agree

11 with me that when these civilians arrived, the Arabs were no longer in

12 that school, they were in their base in Poljanice?

13 A. Yes, they were in their base in Poljanice because, as I said, in

14 late 1992 they moved out of the school.

15 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that looking after the civilians was

16 not within the competence of the army?

17 A. Yes, that's quite true.

18 Q. It was for the Ministry of Interior to deal with that; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes. You mean their security? Yes, it was the Ministry of

21 Interior and the police department that had their headquarters in Mehurici

22 who were in charge of that.

23 Q. Well, I'll go back to the civilians who arrived in the school in

24 Mehurici. It's correct, is it not, that they were guarded by civilian

25 policemen?

Page 1145

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It's also correct that the 306th Brigade provided several military

3 policemen to assist?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. They were from the Military Police Platoon,

5 and they were at the lines facing the Serb-Montenegrin aggressor. On

6 their way back from the line they stayed in Mehurici, and we asked them to

7 help in order to make sure that things went well.

8 Q. Thank you. Does the name "Biban" mean anything to you?

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me for interrupting. It's just that I

10 thought I should clarify the answer that the witness gave to your question

11 about who escorted the civilians back to Mehurici, because when I asked

12 the witness that same question, he said they were soldiers of the ABiH.

13 So was it --

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you asked who escorted

15 the soldiers to the school. My question was: Who guarded the civilians

16 while they were staying at the school? I think these are two different

17 things, and I didn't see how my question entered the record.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, I'll go back to my question. Does the name "Biban" mean

21 anything to you?

22 A. I know a Biban from the area of our valley. He was a member of

23 the Ministry of the Interior at the time.

24 Q. In other words, he was a civilian policeman, not a military

25 policeman?

Page 1146

1 A. Yes, yes, yes.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, you told us in your testimony that

3 Haris Jusic was a lawyer in the brigade?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember that you testified to the Prosecutor in October

6 2006?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have the statement

9 here, if need be, but first let's hear what the witness has to say in

10 order not to waste time.

11 Q. Do you remember saying --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. The transcript says he testified to

13 the Prosecutor. Is it testified or did he give a statement to the

14 Prosecutor?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] He gave a statement. He gave a

16 statement.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: To the Prosecutor?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] To the Prosecutor.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, do you remember that you said that Haris Jusic took

22 statements from Croatian villagers from Maline; do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That's correct, is it? Not?

25 A. Yes. I don't know what happened to the statements afterwards.

Page 1147

1 Q. Let's proceed slowly, please. You also said that at the time the

2 Croats were not willing to talk about the event; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, but --

4 Q. Just go slow, Witness, for the transcript to catch up. It's

5 correct, is it not, that they were afraid and that they didn't talk a lot

6 about it?

7 A. Yes, that's true.

8 Q. If I suggest to you that military policemen of the battalion of

9 the 306th Brigade who were involved in these events gave statements, would

10 you accept that?

11 A. What event are you referring to?

12 Q. In the village of Maline on the 8th of June.

13 A. That military policemen were involved in that?

14 Q. No, no. Please, Witness, slow down. I'm not saying they were

15 involved. What I'm saying is the following: If I were to say that

16 military policemen or people from the 306th Brigade who escorted these

17 people to Mehurici made statements, would I be correct? Do you know that?

18 A. I don't know about statements made by them.

19 Q. You personally maybe don't know about it. Will you allow for such

20 a possibility?

21 A. That they would give statements?

22 Q. Well, that they gave statements to Delalic or to Haris Jusic?

23 A. Well, it's possible.

24 Q. And it's possible that you don't know about it?

25 A. Well, I certainly don't know about it.

Page 1148

1 Q. It's correct, is it not, that on the 8th of June and for a period

2 after that, Mr. Esad Sipic was the brigade commander; you said that?

3 A. Yes, yes, Esad Sipic was the commander at the time.

4 Q. Do you agree that in October 1993, he was no longer the commander

5 but was replaced by Vezir Jusufspahic?

6 A. Yes, precisely so, only I don't know the precise date.

7 Q. All right. And you know, don't you, that from June until October

8 1993, the deputy commander of the 3rd Corps, Dzemal Merdan, visited that

9 area?

10 A. Yes, he did; although, I didn't meet him myself. I didn't receive

11 him, but I know that he came by.

12 Q. Very well. Do you know that he came by with representatives of

13 the International Community?

14 A. I know that they were foreigners, but I can't tell you what

15 organisations they belonged to. I replied in the same way to your

16 colleagues.

17 Q. Let me go back to the document that was -- just to save the time,

18 Your Honours, Exhibit 140. This is a short report that you sent about the

19 event, and you confirmed that you actually signed that document. You said

20 that you had received instructions from Mr. Delalic; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Please, if I put it to you that that instruction referred mostly

23 to the fact that members of the BiH Army did not commit the massacre,

24 would I be correct?

25 A. Yes, precisely so. This is what I tried to explain when the

Page 1149

1 gentleman here asked me about the document. This is precisely what the

2 document states.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would like

4 the witness to look at a document which at this moment, on the face of it,

5 does not have much to do --

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question. I apologise,

7 Ms. Vidovic.

8 Witness, earlier on you told us, if I'm not mistaken, that the

9 document that you yourself signed, you drafted this document pursuant to

10 very precise instructions of your superior and that's how I understood it.

11 Maybe I'm mistaken. It appears that this is a report that your superior

12 provided, and now you're telling us that -- actually, what are the facts

13 that are related in that document, and the document means that no members

14 of the BiH Army committed that massacre.

15 Do you now confirm that this is indeed the fact? I just need to

16 be clear on your thoughts with regard to this document, because initially

17 I understood your evidence differently.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About this document, this is about

19 the army, members of the army, that they did not commit this massacre.

20 This is what I had in mind, and this is precisely how I responded to the

21 original question.

22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where in this document does it say that the members

24 of the army did not commit the massacre?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A reference was made to the army,

Page 1150

1 because this report was sent as a follow-up to a previous query.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute, Mr. Witness. The lawyer asked you a

3 question, whether it can be said that this document says that members of

4 the army did not commit the crimes, did not kill the people, and you said

5 that's precisely what you were trying to explain earlier, that this is

6 what the document says. I'm trying to find the line, and once I find it,

7 I'll show it to you.

8 My question to you is: Where in this document does it state that

9 members of the army did not commit the massacre?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say that in the document.

11 However, what was meant by the document was members of the army, because

12 our control was only over the army and nobody else. This is what is

13 implied by the document.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know where you get that implication. Just

15 quote me a sentence or a paragraph in that letter which gives you that

16 impression, sir.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may.


19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have the question

20 in front of me. This is page 87, line 21. I was talking about

21 Mr. Delalic's instruction, that this instruction was relative to the

22 members of the army. This was what I put to the witness. I never

23 mentioned the document.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute, wait a minute, ma'am. Wait a

25 minute, ma'am. You're at page 87. Now, I know that there are two

Page 1151

1 versions here, but my line 24 says:

2 "Q. Please, if I put it to you that that instruction referred

3 mostly to the fact that members of the BiH Army did not commit the

4 massacre, would I be correct?"

5 Now, this is after you have asked earlier:

6 "Q. Let me go back to the document that was just to save the

7 time, Your Honours, Exhibit 140. This is a short report that you sent

8 about the event, and you confirmed that you actually signed that document.

9 You said that you had received instructions from Mr. Delalic; is that

10 correct?"

11 "A. Yes, that is correct.

12 "Q. Please, if I put it to you that that instruction referred

13 mostly to the fact that members of the BH Army did not commit the

14 massacre, would I be correct?"

15 Now, I don't know -- I don't understand that question. This

16 witness told us that he received instructions to write this report in

17 exactly the way that it is said. What he said here was what he received

18 from Delalic. How the instruction to write what is written here can be

19 interpreted to refer to the fact that members of the BH Army did not

20 commit the massacre, I would like to understand because I don't pick it up

21 from this document. And I may be slow on the uptake, but I would like you

22 to help me.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I was asking this question to the witness.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but I want one

Page 1152

1 thing to be clear for the record.

2 I may have somewhat broader knowledge, and I'm entitled to put in

3 my case to the witness, and I put it to the witness that he had received

4 instructions that was relative to the BiH Army. Your Honours, you may

5 allow me to have some broader knowledge of the matter.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam, we don't dispute that. We don't dispute

7 that you have broader knowledge, but we need to understand step by step

8 what is taking place.

9 Now, when a witness gives an answer which is not apparent from the

10 document, I ask him to explain. I'm not questioning your question. You

11 put your question, but let the witness tell me, in response to this

12 question by you, that the instruction referred mostly to the fact that

13 members of the BH Army did not commit the massacre. He must tell this

14 Court where he gets that from this document. And you have your broad

15 questions, ask your broad questions, but before you get to that broad

16 question let us understand so that we are with you where you go.

17 Sir, where do you get it from given the fact that this is not your

18 original document. This document, you were given instructions to write it

19 in the manner which it is written, where do you get it from this document

20 that the instruction had referred to the fact that members of the BH Army

21 did not commit the massacre? And refer me to a passage in this document.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received instruction from Delalic,

23 as I've already told you. The meaning of the text, it is meant here that

24 the army did not commit.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is that said, though, where is that said in

Page 1153

1 this document that the army did not commit?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say so in the document,

3 but the document was drafted in that sense.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you know that, sir, because you were just

5 writing what you were told to write. How do you know that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. My question is:

8 How do you know that? Because what you wrote here, according to your

9 testimony, is what you were told to write. How do you then begin to see

10 beyond what you --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm afraid I didn't understand

12 your question.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You answered before I finished. My question to you

14 is: How do you know that that is what was meant when that was not

15 communicated to you and it is not in the document, and this document is

16 the result of strict instructions from Delalic?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know how to answer

18 your question.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, you wouldn't. You wouldn't know how to

20 answer it. And if you did know, you would tell us.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My opinion at this moment is that I

22 can't provide you with any further information. The word "BiH Army" is

23 not in the text, but the document originates from the BiH Army, and I was

24 of the opinion that the text refers to the BiH Army; although, it is not

25 explicitly given in the text itself.

Page 1154

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen, sir, this document says "Clearly during a

2 battle with units of the HVO in the villages of Maline, Bikosi, and

3 Postinje, the HVO suffered losses in manpower and materiel and technical

4 equipment as a result of the combat operations." Now, can you, from that

5 paragraph, infer that the BH Army was not involved? Can you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not from this text. However, the

7 fact that the document was drafted --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand what you mean by "the fact that

9 the document was drafted, therefore the BH Army was not involved." The

10 next paragraph says:

11 "In the above-mentioned area, dead bodies of 25 Croats were

12 collected in the period between 8th June and 10th June 1993. The bodies

13 could not be identified as they did not have any identification documents

14 on them. They were all dressed in uniforms. The bodies were all buried

15 at the location called Pjescara between Bikosi and Maline villages. We

16 repeat that all these individuals died in combat."

17 Where do you get the impression, from that reading, that the BH

18 Army was not involved?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my opinion, the conclusion

20 is very clear, the army didn't do it. And according to Delalic's

21 knowledge that he collected from the people who had been there. Now, as

22 who was there, I don't know. I never met those people.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you let this Trial Chamber into how you come to

24 that conclusion, sir, because we don't know how you come to that

25 conclusion.

Page 1155

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot word an answer to that. I

2 have told you that this referred to the army reports, and my superior told

3 me that these crimes had not been committed by members of the army. As

4 for the rest of it, I wouldn't be able to give you anything else.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are now telling us new evidence. You never

6 said so earlier and that is not in this letter. You haven't written in

7 this document that [indiscernible] told that the army was not involved,

8 and the question would be: Why didn't you do that, sir, if that is what

9 you were instructed?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my conversations with him,

11 from his stories, and actually he told me precisely to word the document

12 the way I did.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, and not to add anything else other than

14 what has been written here, other than what's written here, isn't it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, why do you now want to add things that he

17 didn't tell you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is my opinion that this was

19 not done by members of the army, actually based on my earlier --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me tell you something. We ask you to tell us

21 facts, to the best of your knowledge, not your opinion. Okay? Please

22 don't give us your opinion unless it is sought, and it will be sought

23 under correct circumstances.

24 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have the right

Page 1156

1 to put my case to the witness, to put to him my assumptions. And in

2 keeping with Rule 90 (H), I have the right to inform the witness about my

3 view of the case. And I also believe that the witness has the right to

4 answer the way he wants, the way he perceives my questions.

5 Thank you very much, Your Honours. And, Your Honours --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't have the last word.

7 I told you it is your right to do so. It is our duty to

8 understand his answers in the light of the questions you put to him, and

9 if we don't, we must ask.

10 Okay, you may proceed and ask your questions, Madam.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Witness, please, earlier today you saw a document which was

13 Exhibit 134.

14 Can this exhibit be shown to the witness again, please?

15 Witness, could you please look. This is a document dated 14 May

16 1992 -- 1993 of the 306th Brigade. This has already been shown to you by

17 the Prosecutor. Please look at the part where it says "Remark." It

18 says -- or "Note":

19 "The 1st Mountain Battalion. The strength of one mountain

20 company is in reserve and [indiscernible] 7th Muslim Brigade Platoon."

21 With this regard, I would like to ask you this: It is true, is

22 it not, Witness, in that area the 7th Muslim Brigade did not have an

23 organised unit, but rather that it actually, in the village of Kljaci,

24 there were some of the members who happened to be there at the blockade

25 due to combat activities; am I right?

Page 1157

1 A. I know that it did not exist in the area. I don't know whether

2 there was anybody in Kljaci, I wouldn't be able to tell you if there were

3 any members there.

4 Q. In other words, you don't know that the 7th Muslim was in the

5 area?

6 A. No, I don't, I don't know that.

7 Q. Now I'm going to ask you -- we will no longer need this exhibit,

8 Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It will be removed.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please be shown

11 Exhibit number 90.

12 Q. Witness, can you please take another look at this document? This

13 is a document dated 28 May 1993. I want to ask you this: The title of

14 the document is "Official Note of the Death of Brkic, Sakib." Do you know

15 that person?

16 A. The deceased?

17 Q. Yes. It is true, is it not, that that person had not belonged to

18 the 306th Brigade?

19 A. No, he was a minor.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

21 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

23 Any re-examination?

24 MR. NEUNER: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

Page 1158

1 Q. Witness, how many soldiers were in the 306th Brigade in 1993?

2 Let's say June 1993.

3 A. Brigade members?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I can't tell you exactly. Between 15 and 1,700, around 1.600, but

6 I wouldn't be able to give you the exact number because I did not have any

7 insight into the personnel situation.

8 Q. In your evidence today, you mentioned you saw a couple of times

9 Mujahedin. What was the largest group of Mujahedin you saw in 1992 in the

10 Bila Valley? And I'm talking about locals and foreigners.

11 A. Between 50 and a hundred foreigners. And as for locals, there may

12 have been up to 50. I don't know the exact number. I never counted heads

13 but that would be the rough figures.

14 Q. And where about would you see these people in 1992?

15 A. Mostly in the early morning. These people exercised. They would

16 jog along the road from Mehurici towards Gluha Bukovica and other

17 villages. They would run along the asphalt road to keep fit.

18 Q. If I may show you a picture. This is Exhibit 92, and page 6 of

19 it. The ERN number, to help the Registrar, 0471-7268.

20 Have you ever seen that person?

21 A. Possibly, but I can't be certain. I can't say I know who it is.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see how these

24 last two questions can arise from my cross-examination.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I agree entirely with you.

Page 1159

1 Can you explain why you're asking these questions, sir?

2 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I was yesterday showing the same

3 picture to this witness, and he had just said he has seen a group of

4 Mujahedin doing exercises, and yesterday I got additional information

5 pointing to that person. I just wanted to follow up how many people he

6 has seen.

7 I take the point by my learned colleague, and I am prepared to go

8 on.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Objection upheld.


11 Q. What was the largest group of Mujahedin you saw in 1993 until

12 June?

13 A. I couldn't tell you the number. The local people joined them, but

14 there were around 50 of them, but I can't tell you the number. There was

15 a group of between 50 and a hundred.

16 Q. A group of 50 up to 100 Mujahedin, locals and foreigners, in

17 total?

18 A. Yes, yes, both at that time.

19 Q. From a military perspective, what do you think can a group of

20 1.000 soldiers do with a group of up to 50 to 100 persons?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic is on her feet. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object and I have

23 the same objection as before.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Neuner. Since you started your

25 examination, I haven't seen anything that arises from cross-examination,

Page 1160

1 and I must agree with Madam Vidovic, unless you can convince us to the

2 contrary how these questions arise from cross-examination.

3 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, my learned colleague has put, if I can

4 put it in quotation marks "the third front" argument to this witness, and

5 I'm just trying to establish who was -- how many soldiers were on one side

6 and how many soldiers were in a maximum on the so-called third side or

7 third front side. This is all I'm trying to do based on the questions put

8 before by my learned colleague.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think you must then deal with the question of

10 fronts, and then if your question of numbers of Mujahedin has to come in,

11 let them come in in the context of dealing with the number of fronts. But

12 your colleague never raised any questions about the strength of Mujahedin,

13 per se. She raised questions about the number of fronts that the Muslim

14 army would have been faced with if they had attacked Mujahedin. There

15 would have been three fronts. Contextualise your questions.

16 MR. NEUNER: I agree with Your Honour. What I tried to do was

17 just follow up on that suggestion by my learned friend and trying to

18 establish some facts about her suggestion. That's all I'm trying to do.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Start from what was done in cross-examination. Then

20 your learned friend won't keep standing up.

21 MR. NEUNER: I have asked a few factual questions. I think the

22 witness has responded to my questions, and the Prosecution doesn't have

23 further questions at this point in time.

24 Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 1161

1 Judge.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, I'll bring you back to Exhibit 140,

4 because there is still something that I don't understand about the meaning

5 of this document. So if the Registrar will please find it and give it

6 back to us on the screen.

7 And while the Registry is working, I'd like to put the question to

8 you about what the purpose of this document was.

9 Now, when I read it, I get the impression that ABiH forces were

10 engaged in a combat situation with Croatian forces and that during these

11 combat actions 25 Croats were killed. They were all combatants, and we

12 can see that by the fact that they were dressed in uniforms. And it is

13 further reiterated by the remark at the end of the data that all these

14 individuals died in combat. So from the reading of this text, one would

15 assume that nothing had gone wrong, this was a perfectly legitimate

16 situation where 25 soldiers of the foreign forces were killed and

17 subsequently collected.

18 Yet you also told us that you had been ordered to write this by

19 Delalic, and you informed us very clearly that crimes had been committed.

20 So I cannot help thinking that this was a cover-up, this was written

21 deliberately to hide the truth. And you knew the truth because you told

22 us that crimes had been committed. I can refer you to the place, if you

23 wish.

24 So you knew, I suppose, at the time that what was written in this

25 report was not the truth. The truth was that crimes had been committed,

Page 1162

1 and if I may interpret your answer, and feel free to correct me if I'm

2 wrong, the crimes were committed by the Mujahedin. Is this a correct

3 assumption? I don't want to lead you anywhere. I don't want to pull

4 tricks on you, so you have to tell me if this is how it was.

5 I take it from your nodding that you agree. Now, my question to

6 you is: Why was it so important to pass up a message to the 3rd Corps

7 that no crimes had been committed? You knew that crimes were committed by

8 the Mujahedin, possibly. Delalic knew. But why, then, did you not say

9 so, and why was it important to keep your hands over the Mujahedin? You

10 could have said that the Mujahedins were engaged in combat and 25 people

11 were killed, but you didn't even do so. You said that it was the ABiH

12 that had been involved in combat and 25 Croats had been killed.

13 So tell me about, you know, why was this a cover-up, why was it

14 important to not tell the truth here?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no cover-up. There were

16 25 corpses. That was well known. And as far as Delalic's information

17 went, this was done by the Mujahedin according to what he found out.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: But why didn't you say so?

19 A. I did say that when the colleague across the way asked me. They

20 were kidnapped.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sure, but nevertheless in the report that Delalic

22 told you to write, it appears nowhere in this report that the crimes

23 were --

24 A. No, not in this report.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And why not? Why did you wish to give -- or why

Page 1163

1 did Delalic wish to give the impression to the 3rd Corps that no crime had

2 been committed?

3 A. Well, this was about the army. The army did not commit anything.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: But nevertheless it seemed as if you are taking

5 responsibility for the killing of the 25 Croats. These were people who

6 were killed by members of the BiH during combat, and the killed persons

7 were combatants so that was all legal and lawful; yet you still tell me

8 that these were crimes and they were committed by Mujahedin. So there is

9 obviously something that is inconsistent, and my question is: What was

10 Delalic's interest in passing up a wrong message to the 3rd Corps?

11 A. I can't explain what he thought. Maybe in this context, the way

12 this is written, and the instructions that were given, the idea was that

13 it wasn't members of the army who had committed anything because at that

14 time the Mujahedin were not under our control. Maybe that's what he

15 thought, but I can't really explain what he thought. I don't know.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Didn't you talk about it? I mean, it must have

17 been the talk of the camp in these days.

18 A. Yes, it was the talk of the camp.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the correct version would have been to say that

20 the members of the Mujahedin had killed these 25 Croats and that possibly

21 a crime had been committed because they were not all combatants, they were

22 not all dressed in uniforms; that would have been the true story. And so

23 why couldn't Delalic have just say that? He wouldn't be held responsible

24 anyway, nor would the 306th Battalion.

25 A. I don't know. I can't answer that question.

Page 1164

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In order to round off this point,

3 these 25 Croats mentioned in this document that you signed and which you

4 drew up according to the precise instructions of your superior, Delalic,

5 according to your knowledge these 25 Croats, were they civilians or

6 fighters? I need to have this finally clarified.

7 A. I'm telling you again, I did not investigate this myself, and I

8 cannot tell you whether they were all in uniform or not and whether they

9 were all HVO members or not.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, you wrote down

11 things of which you knew that at least partially they were not true, that

12 they were false?

13 A. No, because it was not I who investigated this, so I couldn't know

14 that.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: But you have also told us that you yourself did

16 not know whether they all had been wearing uniforms or not. It seems that

17 you wrote down things that at least partially were not correct, because

18 you yourself say that you put it in the document that they all had

19 uniforms.

20 In any case, I understand the matter better than before. I have

21 some other questions - I apologise - to you.

22 Do you know that any of -- your superiors who were present in the

23 area, did you tell your superiors at a higher level that the accused or

24 somebody subordinated to the accused about the presence of foreign

25 military in your area of responsibility? Did you tell anybody about

Page 1165

1 that? Because the authorities who were not in the zone, you were there,

2 you were on the ground, and you were the one who had seen them.

3 My question is, then: Did you tell anybody about that presence

4 on the ground? That presence, at least according to you, was not

5 something that could be considered a normal occurrence.

6 A. The command was informed about that, and they knew that these

7 people had created problems for us within our area of responsibility.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You have also told us in your

9 evidence that you could not exercise your coercive power against these

10 fighters, that you didn't have any control over them, and you could not do

11 anything against your co-fighters that decided to join those Arabs, as you

12 call them, because they were too powerful. You did not have, yourself,

13 the power to face these people, to confirm them.

14 I apologise for sharing with you some of the observations that I

15 have made during your evidence, that the Chamber has made, when you were

16 answering the last question put to you by the Prosecutor, which I found

17 rather fundamental. I would like to clarify one thing.

18 What made you think that they were so powerful? What constituted,

19 in your view, their power? Is it their number or something else? What

20 made them so powerful?

21 A. My opinion and my view of the situation on the ground was this:

22 These people did not refrain from any measures. They could have even

23 killed a Bosnian Muslim. There was torture on account of the women, on

24 account of all sorts of things. That's why we could not -- we did not

25 dare enter a conflict with them. And they were all armed, they all

Page 1166

1 carried arms, whereas in our brigade not everybody carried arms.

2 There were a lot of people who were on the lines without any

3 weapons. For example, in a trench there would be two or three men and

4 they would share just one rifle, and that was the main problem.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So what you're saying is that the

6 superior authorities knew -- they were aware of the fact that these people

7 were present, that these foreign fighters were present in your area of

8 responsibility. Still, your impression was that that presence was, in a

9 way, authorised by the political and military authorities of your country.

10 Would you say that, that they were there under somebody's authority?

11 A. I personally did not have that impression. I did not have the

12 impression that they were our benefactors because I saw how they behaved.

13 And as for how the authorities felt towards them, I really can't be the

14 judge of that. I don't know what the political authorities thought of

15 them.

16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm not asking you about what

17 they thought, what their views were. Your testimony is that your

18 impression was that they were aware of their presence but that you had the

19 feeling that they were there under either implicit or explicit authority

20 of the higher authorities, that their presence was, in a certain way,

21 authorised and legal presence, a legitimate presence; let me put it that

22 way. Did you have that impression?

23 A. As long as this was not covered by any order, my opinion is that

24 this was not authorised, that their presence was not authorised.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So what you're saying is that

Page 1167

1 they knew, but they also didn't have the strength or power to intervene,

2 to chase them out of the area, to somehow regulate their conduct?

3 A. I really don't know how to answer that question. I really don't

4 know how to explain things for you to make them more clear. I, myself,

5 don't really know where they came from, how they arrived. I really don't

6 have an explanation for that.

7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Judge.

9 Due to the lateness of the hour, the matter is adjourned to

10 tomorrow. It's the same Courtroom I at quarter past 2.00.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day of

14 July, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.