Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1168

1 Tuesday, 24 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon once again, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, may you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is

9 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Appearances for today? For

11 the Prosecution?

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

13 Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Matthias Neuner, Laurie Sartorio, assisted

15 today by our intern Shona McJannett and our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Witness, may I just warn

17 you, you may be aware of it but it's the duty of the Trial Chamber to warn

18 you that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning

19 of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but

20 the truth. Thank you very much.

21 I beg your pardon. Madam Vidovic, I'm so sorry.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the record, I

23 would like to say that the Defence counsel is present, Vasvija Vidovic and

24 Nicholas Robson with their associates, Lejla Gluhic, Asja Zujo and our

25 intern Chloe McRae.

Page 1169

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic, and I'm awfully

2 sorry for that slight omission. Yesterday, Judge Lattanzi had just

3 finished asking her questions.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Questioned by the Court [Continued]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, yesterday you testified during

8 cross-examination that the Mujahedin distributed food to the local Muslim

9 population. You remember that?

10 A. Yes, I do. I remember.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did they distribute food to the Croat population?

12 A. No, because in that particular area there were no Croats.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So -- okay. Are you aware of them having

14 distributed food to any Croats where there were Croats?

15 A. I don't know. That information was not available to me, and I

16 myself never went to such areas.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also testified that you were 100 per cent

18 certain that no Arab was a member of your brigade.

19 A. I know for sure that there were none in the brigade.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you said your brigade, what were you actually

21 referring to?

22 A. The 306th, the brigade that I belonged to.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whether they were members of the

24 3rd Corps?

25 A. I don't know about that time.

Page 1170

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you also talked about lack of support from the

2 judiciary, in terms of prosecuting crimes. For me, who doesn't understand

3 the system, I would like to understand. If somebody commits a crime out

4 there, at what stage does the judiciary intervene? I guess the gravimen

5 of my question is does the judiciary go and arrest, or is the person

6 arrested by the police and brought to the judiciary?

7 A. At that time, the courts did not issue any orders, unless it was

8 known for sure that a military person was involved. In that case we would

9 bring that person in and the Court would take over from us.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, the people that we are talking about were

11 military people, isn't it?

12 A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The people who you are testifying about as having

14 committed crimes were people who committed crimes as members of the

15 military?

16 A. No. They were not registered as military.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What were they?

18 A. I don't know. In my view, they were paramilitary groups.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, when you say the courts did not issue orders,

20 any orders, what orders were these that were supposed to be issued?

21 A. Orders for arrest, or arrest warrants.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: But my question is, then, had these arrest warrants

23 been sought from the Court?

24 A. If there were valid arguments, if there was information sent to

25 the Court, the Court would have issued an arrest warrant. However, while

Page 1171

1 I was there, we did not have such situations.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: But understand my question. My question is not if.

3 I want to know whether, in fact, such warrants were sought from the

4 Court.

5 A. We never approached the Court. The only time we would address the

6 Court for anything was when we filed a criminal report, and only if we had

7 done that, the Court would follow up and would come back to us.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is: Did you file those criminal

9 reports with the Court?

10 A. Later on, yes. But those criminal reports were filed for the

11 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were members of the army.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "later on," what do you mean? Because

13 I'm asking you at the time when you say the courts were inefficient and

14 not giving you any support, I want to know that did you file these reports

15 with the judiciary and the judiciary just didn't do anything about them or

16 what happened?

17 A. Are you referring to the event in Bikosi maybe?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, that included, yes. That included all crimes.

19 A. Well, when it comes to Bikosi, we did not file any reports because

20 we did not have any information. So the reports were not filed. The only

21 reports that I'm aware of were reports filed against our people who failed

22 to respond to the call-up or committed thefts or even murders at some

23 instances.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's deal with them one by one. Now, with respect

25 to the Bikosi incident, you can therefore not say that you didn't get any

Page 1172

1 support from the judiciary because you did not file any reports with the

2 judiciary; am I right?

3 A. Of course, yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: With respect to the local Bosnian military who were

5 not answering call-ups, did you file any reports with the judiciary?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what was the response of the judiciary?

8 A. There were some positive developments, there were some negative

9 developments. It happened sometimes that the criminal report was turned

10 down because there were no valid foundations for such criminal reports,

11 and the courts simply did not prosecute those people or found them

12 innocent.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, if there were no valid foundations for the

14 reports, can it be said that the judiciary was not lending support, or did

15 the people who filed reports not do their job properly to satisfy the

16 Court that there was a need to take steps?

17 A. I can't answer your question. I believe that the problem was a

18 lack of professionalism.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: On whose part?

20 A. On the part of the service that was in charge of filing those

21 reports.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, the blame cannot be put on the Court,

23 sir; am I right? You should be able to answer that question because it's

24 a logical question based on what you're telling us. Blame cannot be put

25 on the courts.

Page 1173

1 A. Again, I can't answer your question.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have just told us there was lack of

3 professionalism on the part of the people who filed the reports. What was

4 the lack of professionalism, the lack of professionalism was that they

5 filed reports which did not have a valid foundation for a warrant of

6 arrest to be issued. Who is to blame, sir? Is it the Court or is it the

7 person who files an unfounded report?

8 A. I don't know. I don't know.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I leave it at that. I guess it's more of a

10 rhetorical question anyway.

11 Now, you also testified that there were groups of Arabs who had

12 not joined the Mujahedin. Remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did those groups that had not joined Mujahedin

15 fight alongside with the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you aware of any Mujahedins fighting alongside

18 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. As far as I know, in the area where we were deployed, there were

20 none.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Talking about the civilians who were in camps, in

22 the camp in Mehurici and other places, you said that they were the

23 responsibility of the Ministry of the Interior and not of the army. You

24 remember that?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 1174

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the status of these people? Why were they

2 kept in these camps?

3 A. It was not a camp. We called it an acceptance or reception centre

4 where people were accommodated in order to be protected, so they were

5 there for their own safety.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whose responsibility is to see to the safety of

7 people who have surrendered in times of war?

8 A. The Ministry of the Interior was responsible; although, we also

9 helped out with a few people that were provided for their assistance.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But my question is, if you do know the answer to

11 it, more of a legal question, not actually what took place on the ground.

12 Where people in time of war surrender to the army, your army, whose

13 responsibility is it in law to look after those people?

14 A. I cannot answer your question.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Were these civilians who were

16 in this [Microphone not activated] Were these civilians who were in the

17 reception centre free to leave the centre any time they wished to? Could

18 they just walk out if they wanted to leave?

19 A. They could leave but they didn't want to.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also testified, sir, yesterday that you told

21 your superiors about the problems from the Mujahedin. You remember that?

22 A. What are you referring to? Can you please jog my memory?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I know now the transcript will have changed.

24 It was page 105 of yesterday's transcript at lines 5 and 6. I don't know

25 whether we are able to determine what page it would be today. But you

Page 1175

1 testified at that point in time that you made reports, you told your

2 superiors, about the problems that you were receiving from Mujahedin, and

3 I just want to ask you a few questions about that statement. Do you

4 remember saying so?

5 A. I remember.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine. If you do there is no need to look

7 for it on the transcript. Now, did you receive any reaction from your

8 superiors to the reports that you gave them about these problems?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions

11 for you, sir. Any questions arising from the questions by the Bench,

12 Mr. Neuner?

13 MR. NEUNER: Just following up on what Your Honour has just asked,

14 whether any response from superiors with regard to the problems with the

15 Mujahedin were coming, could I have, please, Exhibit PT 1500 being shown

16 to the witness?

17 Further re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

18 MR. NEUNER: The first page, please. This is a document from the

19 26th of August 1993 or it was sent on the 26th of August 1993. Is there

20 also an English translation available? There is no English translation

21 available? Well, I have one but it is marked.

22 Q. Maybe, Witness, you can read out the relevant line. First of all

23 your name, it just disappears, if you could scroll down a little bit, type

24 signed is your name Osman Fusko, do you see your name?

25 A. Yes. But Asim Delalic signed instead of me because at the at the

Page 1176

1 end of the day he was the person who was authorised to do that.

2 Q. Having looked at the document today, do you recall that document?

3 A. Partly, but I could not quote the contents off my head.

4 Q. Would it assist you if I just tried to summarise? It relates to

5 arson, alleged arson, and it says in the document, "The perpetrators of

6 this act are Mujahedin." Does that jog your memory?

7 A. Yes. I remember.

8 Q. What I'm trying to explore is one line, which is about the fourth

9 line from the bottom. "We have repeatedly reported this." Do you find

10 this in the Bosnian language, and if you could please read it, then, out

11 for the benefit of everybody in and around the courtroom. Could you

12 please read this sentence out?

13 A. You want me to read it?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. "For a long time now, members of the Mujahedin are creating a lot

16 of problems."

17 Q. If I can interrupt, I'm just referring to the one sentence

18 starting with "we have repeated" -- I'm sorry, I interrupted you. If you

19 could please go on.

20 A. Do you want me to continue where I left it off? "For a long time

21 now, members of the Mujahedin have been creating a lot of problems which

22 we have informed you a lot of times, and we have still not received any

23 instruction as to how to deal with this problem, although, we have

24 requested, I informed you and asked for your assistance with this matter.

25 We sincerely hope that you will take this under advisement because we are

Page 1177

1 really at a loss as to how to deal with this problem, and we expect help

2 from you."

3 Q. Thank you?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is this letter addressed to, sir?

5 MR. NEUNER: If you could scroll up in the original document, it

6 is addressed, as far as I could see --

7 Q. Witness, can I ask you, to whom was the letter addressed?

8 A. The Bosanska Krajina OG, operative group.

9 Q. And where was this operative group based in 1993?

10 A. In Travnik.

11 Q. What was the relationship between your unit, the 306th Brigade,

12 and the OG Bosanska Krajina?

13 A. What are you referring to?

14 Q. You're addressing this to the OG Bosanska Krajina. I'm just

15 inquiring why did you send it to the OG Bosanska Krajina? What was the

16 relationship to this unit?

17 A. The Bosanska Krajina OG was our immediate superior command.

18 Q. And having sent this letter and formulating your request to them

19 to receive precise instruction, did you manage to receive instructions?

20 A. I don't remember that any specific instructions ever reached us.

21 Q. Thank you. I want to touch briefly on an issue which was

22 addressed yesterday by Judge Harhoff. I wish to -- before I do this, I

23 wish to tender this into evidence?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Are you going to provide a

25 translation of this, an English translation, which is not marked?

Page 1178

1 MR. NEUNER: Yes. I was just informed that the translation of

2 this document is on page 2 of this exhibit as it was uploaded.


4 MR. NEUNER: Maybe it is possible to split that up into two

5 pieces.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. Then this document is admitted into

7 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 145.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


11 Q. I wanted to move on to another area, Judge Harhoff yesterday

12 addressed the issue of a possible cover-up. This is page 101, line 12 of

13 yesterday's transcript. And I wish to explore further who may have been

14 involved in requesting your report from the 19th of October, that this

15 report be produced, and who may have consumed the information you provided

16 in this report. Can, please, Exhibit 140 be shown again?

17 Witness, who are the addressees of your report?

18 A. Again, the same, the Bosanska Krajina OG.

19 Q. And it says -- what entity within the OG Bosanska Krajina?

20 A. It says the security organ.

21 Q. Can also point you to number 3 on the lower left-hand corner of

22 the document, it says, "3 Korpus" there. Why is this stated there?

23 A. All documents were sent in this way, to the OG, and the 3rd Corps

24 because the 3rd Corps was our main command.

25 Q. And at the time, why did you send this document to both entities?

Page 1179

1 Why did you inform both entities?

2 A. All documents were sent according to the same system, and this was

3 the system.

4 Q. When Mr. Delalic gave you instructions to write this report, was

5 there anybody else around?

6 A. No, nobody was around.

7 Q. Having received these instructions from Mr. Delalic, what was your

8 impression? Who, in fact, was the spiritual author of these instructions?

9 A. Delalic. Who else?

10 Q. After you had drafted your report, had anybody else the chance to

11 see it before it was processed?

12 A. No. Probably this happened in the late afternoon, when nobody

13 else was around. There were people in the command but no one apart from

14 the security had the right to see this, and the lads working on sending

15 out the document.

16 Q. You had signed this report for Mr. Delalic. Did Mr. Delalic at

17 some later point in time inquire whether you had indeed followed all his

18 instructions given?

19 A. The document was available to him at any moment for him to

20 inspect.

21 Q. Did you ever discuss the issue again?

22 A. Not especially, no.

23 Q. I want to turn to another point, the presence of the Mujahedin in

24 Bila valley. Judge Lattanzi mentioned yesterday that the presence -- or

25 asked yesterday whether the presence of the Mujahedin in the valley of

Page 1180

1 Bila may have been authorised by some higher authority. And this is on

2 page 106, line 7 to 10. I wish to explore this further. And I want to

3 show you Exhibit the 136. Could this please be shown?

4 You have seen this document yesterday already. It dates from the

5 13th of May, and it is type-signed by your superior, Asim Delalic, and I'm

6 asking you to look at the seventh line of this document. It's equal in

7 English as well as in B/C/S. The seventh line of the main text says, "On

8 11th of May 1993, the assistant commander for security affairs and the

9 306th bbr commander were at a meeting with the Mujahedin where we received

10 information supplied to us by their Emir. Representatives of the

11 Mujahedin have spoken to Mr. Sefer Halilovic personally, and they have

12 another meeting in a few days time regarding the formation of the

13 brigade." My question is: In May 1993, what position did Sefer Halilovic

14 hold?

15 A. I think he was the commander at that time of the Main Staff.

16 MR. NEUNER: Prosecution has no further questions.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much Mr. Neuner. Madam Vidovic?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I also have a few

19 questions and I will start from this last document, if it can be kept for

20 a while. Document 136.

21 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

22 Q. Witness, you have seen this document. You saw it yesterday and

23 today. The document states that allegedly the Mujahedin said they had

24 spoken to Sefer Halilovic about establishing the 8th Muslim Brigade.

25 Witness, to the best of your knowledge, did the Muslim -- or,

Page 1181

1 rather, was the 8th Muslim Brigade ever established within the army of

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina? Have you ever heard of it?

3 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, it wasn't.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now I will go back to document 140.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness look at document

6 140 again? It is a document we discussed at length yesterday, but I want

7 the witness to see it again.

8 Q. Witness, evidently you spoke to Mr. Asim Delalic about drawing up

9 this document; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And now I'll put open-ended questions to you, no leading

12 questions. Please answer to the best of your ability.

13 Did you ever at any point in that conversation understand

14 Mr. Delalic to be suggesting you conceal anything?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. And with reference to your testimony about this document, in a

17 response to questions from all the parties, Their Honours, the

18 Prosecution, myself, yesterday and again today, you said you were given

19 instructions as to how to draft this letter. You explained to Their

20 Honours that in the instructions given to you by Mr. Delalic, he said that

21 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had not committed a crime. You repeated

22 that more than once yesterday.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. His Honour, Judge Moloto, on page 94 of the transcript, lines 13

25 to 16, said, I quote, "Now you are giving us a new testimony, something

Page 1182

1 you never said before, which is not in this letter." And that was after

2 my question about Mr. Delalic's instructions, when he told you that the

3 army had not committed any crimes. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, Witness, I will read to you your response, which you gave

6 to the Prosecutor's question on page 82, line 5. I quote, Prosecutor,

7 "Can you explain how you wrote this document?" And your response, "The

8 document was drawn up in accordance with the request sent to us. I

9 consulted Asim Delalic. I asked him what we should do. He told me to

10 write a report; that is, information saying that the army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina had not committed any crimes, and that nothing -- none

12 of those things were done by members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that she does not have the

14 original transcript.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. This is what you answered on page 52 to a question by the

17 Prosecutor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And this is in fact the truth, is it not?

20 A. It is for me.

21 Q. The members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not commit any

22 crimes?

23 A. Certainly, members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not.

24 Q. Yesterday, you explained that this is not in the document, but

25 that that is how you understood inter alia a part of his instructions?

Page 1183

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And now I'll ask you something else, Witness. It's correct, is it

3 not, that when you were writing this report, you had before you, the

4 letter from the higher command, the superior command. Do you remember

5 that?

6 A. I don't recall whether I had it before me or not. Probably there

7 had been requests arriving earlier, and Delalic said we should draw up

8 this document.

9 Q. Let's take it slowly, Witness. More than once yesterday, in the

10 course of your testimony, you said, "I was responding to a request." So

11 now I want to ask you the following: Was the request about asking whether

12 units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were involved in the crime?

13 A. Well, I can't be sure, but I think that's what it was about, yes.

14 I don't have the text or the request in front of me.

15 Q. And --

16 A. And a lot of time has elapsed, so I can't remember everything.

17 Q. But did you draw up a response to a request?

18 A. Probably there was a request.

19 Q. And now I'll ask you something that follows from questions put by

20 the Prosecutor and Their Honours. It's correct, is it not, that neither

21 you nor Mr. Delalic had any professional knowledge as to how to conduct an

22 investigation and how to write this kind of document?

23 A. Not just Delalic and myself. None of us had that kind of

24 professional knowledge.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 1184

1 Further Questions by the Court:

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Fusko, if I may follow up on some of counsel

3 Vidovic's questions, and I'm sorry to return to this matter, but the

4 reason I'm doing it is that I think that there is something, what should I

5 say, fishy about the ways in which crimes committed in your area of

6 responsibility were reported up through the system of command.

7 In Exhibit 145, which is dated the 26th of February 1993, we

8 had -- that was the document that was shown to you on the screen just a

9 little while ago, it was the document in which you were complaining about

10 arson committed by the Mujahedin and seeking instructions and which I

11 understand you had drafted but Delalic had signed on your behalf.

12 Apparently arson had been committed, you were believing that it was

13 committed by Mujahedin, and you were complaining about it, and you were

14 seeking instructions from the operative group. This was in February.

15 In October that same year, eight months later, we hear of a

16 possible massacre being committed in Bikosi, and the response this time

17 from your side was that no crime was committed, these victims were all

18 combatants and if anything, it was certainly not committed by members of

19 your army. And I find it surprising, based on your testimony yesterday,

20 when I asked you about the massacre in Bikosi, if that had not been the

21 talk of the camp these days when the crime was committed. And I was led

22 to believe that everybody had heard about this, and everybody talked about

23 it. Yet, when we came to October, a couple of months later, the report

24 that was sent from you up to the 3rd Corps was, if I may say it, very,

25 very neutral. The answer that you gave was that no crimes had been

Page 1185

1 committed and nothing wrong had been committed by your army. And I ask

2 you again: Why is there such a difference when, in February, you were

3 seeking instructions of how to handle the crime of arson, presumably

4 committed by Mujahedin, while in October, when there was a possibility at

5 least of a major crime, a massacre of 30 people or more, possibly also

6 committed by the Mujahedin, then this time there was silence from your

7 side? I simply don't understand why these two situations were treated so

8 differently. Can you help us explain what to me appears to be a

9 contradiction? Take your time.

10 A. I don't know what to say. I don't know how to answer this

11 question.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sure you have an opinion. You were involved

13 in both reports. Why did you react so differently in February and in

14 October of that same year?

15 A. But what document is mentioned in February? May I see it?

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, of course, can we have Exhibit 145 brought to

17 the screen? Sorry, I was unable to read the dates on the exhibit, so it

18 appears it was not in February; it was in August. But that just makes my

19 point even more clear because now there is a difference of only two

20 months.

21 So apparently Exhibit 145, your report on the arson, was drafted

22 in August, not in February, and I apologise, I couldn't read, while your

23 report on the Bikosi incident came in October. So only two months later,

24 your way of handling it as the professional policeman seems to me to be so

25 different that I really can't understand what was the reason.

Page 1186

1 A. I don't have any special explanation to give. I only followed

2 orders. I was just a refer to an officer executing others' orders. I

3 couldn't decide on anything.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether my learned

7 friends have any additional questions, but I do have a question about the

8 last question.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to ask you -- before I ask you, do you,

10 Mr. Neuner?

11 Further re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

12 Q. Mr. Fusko, in the first -- we have talked about the arson

13 incident. We have talked about the Bikosi incident, which involved the

14 killing. Was there any other killing committed by the Mujahedin in the

15 year of 1993 in the AOR of the 306th Brigade?

16 A. As far as I know, there was an incident in the village of

17 Miletici, but I know practically nothing about it.

18 Q. What little information, if any, do you know about that incident

19 in Miletici?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done?

21 MR. NEUNER: No.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that some people were killed,

23 but I don't have any information as to how many or how --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. Madam Vidovic?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. Miletici,

Page 1187

1 the village of Miletici has nothing to do with Judge Harhoff's question.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner?

3 MR. NEUNER: Well, I respectfully disagree because Judge Harhoff

4 was asking for crimes committed and for the investigation of this

5 witness's military security service into it, and especially for the way

6 how to deal with crimes committing in the AOR of the 306th. In so far I

7 think there is a basis for me to ask these questions.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I'm sorry that the witness has

11 answered before you came up with your objection. Do you have any

12 suggestion what we should do with this?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only want my

14 objection to be noted on the record, but as the witness has answered, I'm

15 satisfied the witness has said he knows nothing about it, but I beg my

16 learned friends to refrain from similar questions in future and to follow

17 the rules of procedure.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your objection is noted, Madam Vidovic. Thank you

19 very much. Do you have any questions for the witness? Are you done,

20 sorry?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, two very brief

22 questions.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's not done yet.


25 Q. Witness, do you remember having given a statement to the Office of

Page 1188

1 the Prosecutor, which included inter alia also the incident in Miletici?

2 A. Yes, yes. You asked me the same question in the same way as now,

3 and I told you that I heard about it but I wasn't familiar with the

4 details. The whole valley heard that it had happened, but I wasn't there

5 and I can't provide any information about it because I don't have any.

6 Q. At the time you gave your statement --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic is on her feet. Madam

8 Vidovic?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I should keep

10 standing because I hardly have time to stand up before the witness begins

11 answering the question. I think the Prosecutor hears my objection, he

12 hears Your Honours upholding it, but then continues putting questions in

13 the same line of questioning.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, can you restrict yourself to the issues

15 that were before the witness yesterday and that the Judge talked about and

16 not Miletici?

17 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, no further questions.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

19 Madam Vidovic?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, two brief questions.

21 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic

22 Q. Witness, Exhibit 145 was discussed. That was the last exhibit

23 shown by His Honour Judge Harhoff, dated August 1995. In connection with

24 this document I wish to ask you the following: You said you were just an

25 ordinary referent; is that correct?

Page 1189

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were not a professional policeman?

3 A. No.

4 Q. It's possible, is it not, that your superior, Mr. Delalic, and the

5 brigade commander superior to him, got some instructions that you know

6 nothing about?

7 A. Yes, it's possible. I don't know that.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. [Microphone not activated]

10 Witness, thank you so much for coming to testify. On behalf of

11 the Tribunal I give you these thanks. This brings us now to the end of

12 your testimony. You are now excused, and you may stand down. Once again,

13 thank you so much.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Next witness, Mr. Mundis?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise but

19 before this witness comes in, I wish to clarify a certain situation, and

20 hear Your Honour's standpoint. I asked, with respect to the next witness,

21 who will begin his testimony today, in view of the fact that the

22 Prosecutor asked for seven or eight statements to be admitted, which he

23 intends to use in the examination-in-chief, under Rule 92 ter, and I

24 opposed this.

25 After that, I agreed to Your Honour's proposal that the

Page 1190

1 Prosecutor extract the parts he wishes to put to the witness during the

2 examination-in-chief, and that this take six hours. I stated then quite

3 clearly that it would be a problem for me in this short space of time to

4 begin my cross-examination before the recess. In the meantime, I have

5 spoken to my learned friends. It's not clear in the record. We

6 understood this differently. I think I was quite clear when I said that

7 based on such voluminous material, I could not begin my cross-examination

8 if the Prosecutor finishes by Wednesday.

9 The reason for this is that two parts, or rather two groups of

10 documents have been admitted which the Prosecutor wishes to use, most of

11 which are not contained in the statement I received as the basis for the

12 testimony in 2007. I need time not only to read this but to find and deal

13 with and prepare other documents for my cross-examination. This is a very

14 important area. These are very important materials which will help Your

15 Honours understand the case. I received proofing notes yesterday which

16 contain some facts.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just make your point. You have given us

18 such background. What is your point?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] To be very brief, briefly, I wish to

20 begin my cross-examination after the recess. This will give me enough

21 time to prepare for my cross-examination properly.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That was a very long way of

23 coming to that point, Madam Vidovic. You will remember, ma'am, that the

24 Chamber did say to the Prosecution that it allows him -- it allows the

25 Prosecution to do -- to use the full six hours for this witness, which

Page 1191

1 means, in fact, that it is anticipated that the Prosecution is going to be

2 leading this witness until the end of the week, by which time we will go

3 on recess, and you'll have plenty of time to prepare. Okay?

4 Your witness, Mr. Mundis.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. I will be handling this

6 witness. However this witness testified in closed session in another

7 trial, and those protective measures are automatically applicable to this

8 Court, and under the rules, I think it's Rule 77.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, madam Sartorio. Did you say

10 in closed session? Not private session?

11 MS. SARTORIO: According to the record it says we would go into

12 closed session is the way it was stated.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, may the Chamber please move into closed

14 session?

15 [Closed session]

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

23 July, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.