Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1694

1 Monday, 27 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody this afternoon.

7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

9 Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case number IT-04-83-T,

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 May we have the appearances for today.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good afternoon, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Matthais Neuner,

16 assisted by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm

20 Vasvija Vidovic, Nicholas David Robson representing General Rasim Delic,

21 with our assistant, Lejla Gluhic.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Good afternoon to you, sir. May the witness please take the --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- make the declaration.

Page 1695

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 [The witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic. You may take

6 your seat.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. NEUNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon.

11 Examination by Mr. Neuner:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. What position did you hold before the witness?

15 A. Before the war, I was a commander of a squad of the Military

16 Police in Sabac. It's a military duty. The ranks are from the military

17 branch.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, would it perhaps be helpful just to get

19 the names of the witness on record before we carry on, please.


21 Q. Could you please tell your name, Witness?

22 A. Asim Delalic.

23 Q. When was your place of birth, and where were you born?

24 A. 10th of December in 1955 in Suhi Dol, near Travnik.

25 Q. Coming back to your the Military police, what training did you

Page 1696

1 receive with the Military Police?

2 A. I didn't have military police training. I completed training for

3 a squad commander of the infantry. And as one of the disciplined

4 commanders, when I was transferred to Sabac, I became the commander of the

5 military police squad there.

6 Q. Having been Commander of the Military Police, what is the first

7 step which is to be performed if the Military Police captures a prisoner

8 of war in the field?

9 A. If the Military Police arrests a prisoner of war in the field,

10 then they are supposed to secure him and also search him.

11 Q. Search him for what?

12 A. Search for weapons, if he's armed. Of course, it's not going to

13 take with them an armed person.

14 Q. When the war in Bosnia started, what unit did you join?

15 A. At the beginning, I was in the Suhi Dol Company, at the beginning

16 when the defence was formed in relation to the Serbian and Montenegrin

17 aggressor. And on the 7th of May, 1992, with Mr. Zijad Selman, who came

18 to pick me up, I went to Travnik, to the Military Police, where a military

19 police company was being formed.

20 Q. And thereafter, after being at the Military Police in Travnik,

21 what unit did you join, if any?

22 A. On my personal request, I returned to Mehurici, where the Mehuric

23 Detachment was formed, which took the place of the Regional Staff before

24 that, and that's where I was appointed Commander of the Military Police

25 Squad there.

Page 1697

1 Q. When was this?

2 A. This was in late September 1992.

3 Q. And where were you based?

4 A. We were based in the Mehurici Elementary School, on the ground

5 floor.

6 Q. Which other unit did you join thereafter?

7 A. As the units became larger, and with the creation of brigades and

8 corps, we moved to the 306th Mountain Brigade where the Mehurici

9 Detachment also moved to.

10 Q. What position did you hold there?

11 A. I was appointed Assistant Commander for Security.

12 Q. Who was your superior within the 306th Brigade?

13 A. My superior was the commander along the command -- line of

14 command. According to the Counter-Intelligence chain of command, it was

15 the Chief of Security of the 3rd Corps.

16 Q. When and where did you first meet a Mujahedin during your tenure

17 in the 306th Brigade?

18 A. The first time I came to Mehurici, I encountered a certain group

19 that was based on the second floor or billeted on the second floor of the

20 elementary school.

21 Q. How large was that group?

22 A. I said that I don't know. They were often on the move. It was

23 hard to count them, so that I really wouldn't want to just make an

24 estimation or a guess offhand.

25 Q. And when did you first see them?

Page 1698

1 A. This was in late September when I came to Mehurici.

2 Q. Which year?

3 A. 1992.

4 Q. As a commander of the Military Police Squad in -- from September

5 1992, how did you consider the presence of Mujahedin from a security

6 perspective?

7 A. I wasn't a commander of the platoon, but I was a squad commander.

8 At the time, they didn't present any danger to us. They were involved in

9 some sort of humanitarian work, so we didn't really pay that much

10 attention to them.

11 Q. And how long did you hold this view that they -- that you didn't

12 need to pay attention to them?

13 A. Up until April 1993, when the Miletic thing happened, until then.

14 Q. What do you refer to by "Miletic thing" or "Miletici thing"?

15 A. It's generally known that five civilians were killed there and

16 that the entire Croatian population and the Bosniak population that tried

17 to protect them was taken to their base in Savica Kuce, where they were

18 located regardless of ethnicity. They had the same behaviour towards the

19 Croats and the Bosniaks who tried to protect them.

20 Q. Can you just clarify, you were referring to "they." Whom do you

21 mean by "they?"

22 A. The Mujahedin who did this infamous or dishonourable act.

23 Q. I wish to show you a document, PT1085.

24 MR. NEUNER: We need page 2 of the English and of B/C/S version.

25 This document, for your information, was sent by Esad Sipic, the

Page 1699

1 commander of the 306th Brigade, and the last paragraph on page 2 in both

2 versions, says, and I will quote:

3 "Soldiers of other units, 'Mr. Sipic writes,' who have gotten out

4 of line with their security commands represent a security problem of

5 particular concern in our zone of responsibility."

6 And if the B/C/S version could please be moved to page 3, and the

7 English as well, there is, in the first line of the B/C/S, an attack -- or

8 Miletici mentioned.

9 Q. Is that the incident we just discussed?

10 In the English version, it's the second paragraph of page 3, Your

11 Honours.

12 A. I don't know what Commander Sipic meant when he drafting this

13 document, but Miletici happened just once, it wasn't repeated.

14 Q. So this document dates from the 5th of May. When was the incident

15 in Miletici happening?

16 A. The incident in Miletici, I'm not sure exactly when it happened,

17 but I think it was the 24th of April, from what I can recall.

18 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I wish to tender this document into

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 254.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


25 Q. I wish to show you another document, PT1087. We see here, on the

Page 1700

1 first page of the B/C/S version, that this is a security bulletin from the

2 Supreme Command Staff, dating from the 8th of May, 1993, so three days

3 after the document of Mr. Sipic. And I'm interested in the third page of

4 both B/C/S and English versions, and it mentions in the second paragraph

5 of the B/C/S here along an attack on the village of Miletici. In the

6 English, it's the third paragraph.

7 Do you see this?

8 A. I'm sorry, I cannot see. I forgot my glasses, so now I have

9 problems when I have to read.

10 Q. I could read you the relevant -- I mean, I wanted to show a couple

11 of documents to this witness, so I'm --

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could his glasses be retrieved from the waiting

13 room?


15 Q. Are your glasses in the waiting room?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to lead the witness on other aspects

20 which do not need reading in the meantime?

21 MR. NEUNER: I only had one question to this document --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. NEUNER: I only had one question to this document. I wanted

24 to ask the witness whether the information, as provided by Commander

25 Sipic, had reached the Security Administration of the General Staff.

Page 1701

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: For him to answer that question, he must read the

2 document, so that's a question that requires his glasses. Are there

3 questions that do not require -- things that he can answer from memory

4 without looking at the page?

5 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

6 Q. This paragraph also mentions that Serb families from Mehurici have

7 been expelled, so I just quote. Two Serb families from their family house

8 in the village of Mehurici are mentioned, and it is mentioned that

9 Ramo Durmis moved into their house houses.

10 My question to you, Witness, is: You already mentioned the Savica

11 houses. Are these the Serb houses mentioned in which Ramo Durmis moved

12 into?

13 A. Savici Kuce is inhabited by Serbs, yes.

14 Q. And if you can look at the document, it states, in the same

15 paragraph, the second paragraph of this document in front of you, that

16 Ramo Durmis moved into their houses. Can you confirm this?

17 A. I don't know about that information. Ramo Durmis was not a member

18 of the 306th Mountain Brigade, and I think that we did furnish a document

19 confirming that.

20 Q. Confirming what?

21 A. That he was not a member of the 306th Mountain Brigade. I don't

22 know whether he moved into Savica Kuce or not.

23 Q. Looking at the paragraph now, you see that Miletici -- the

24 information about the attack on Miletici has reached, indeed, the Supreme

25 Command Security Administration. Can you confirm at least this?

Page 1702

1 A. I can't confirm that because I did not investigate the Miletici

2 incident. I did not consider Miletici to be my area of responsibility.

3 And from what I can remember, the investigation was conducted there by a

4 joint commission comprising the 3rd Corps, the UNPROFOR, and the HVO.

5 Q. Sorry, I'm asking you only whether the information, which we have

6 seen in the previous document from Commander Sipic, has reached the

7 Security Administration of the Supreme Command as you may see here in this

8 document, whether you could confirm this.

9 A. I can see the document in front of me, but I don't know if it

10 reached the Security Administration. If they received the document, then

11 those who did receive it would be able to tell you if they did so.

12 Q. But if you look at the first page again, it's a document from the

13 Security Administration, isn't it?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is the witness looking at the first page? Is the

15 first page up yet?

16 MR. NEUNER: Can we please switch to the first page? Yes, here.

17 Q. Can you confirm that this, indeed, is from the Security

18 Administration of the General Staff?

19 A. Sir, I did not have a document like this in my hands when I was in

20 the army. Documents like this did not reach me, so I cannot confirm if

21 this is that document or not. I can see that it is the Supreme Command

22 Staff Security Administration document, but we didn't receive documents of

23 this type.

24 MR. NEUNER: Can I at least mark the document for identification?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted for identification. May

Page 1703

1 it please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 255.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


5 Q. Did you ever visit the Savici Kuce?

6 A. No, only once when I was there, but they didn't allow us to enter

7 to speak with the Mujahedin commander regarding the Miletici problem. I

8 didn't enter the houses.

9 Q. What did the Mujahedin commander tell you about the Miletici

10 problem?

11 A. My commander, Mr. Sipic, wanted to find out more after the

12 incident that happened there, and he asked me to go and -- with him and

13 talk to them. And when we got to the gate, a guard was there. He was an

14 Arab, and he didn't know the language, so we managed to understand each

15 other somehow, that we wanted to reach the person in charge. But he

16 wouldn't let us pass. He blew into a whistle and two men came out of the

17 house. One of them, I think, was a Bosniak and the other was an Arab, so

18 we assumed that that was the person in charge, although I didn't know him.

19 And when we were talking with them to see how we could surmount

20 the problems, he said that there was nothing to talk about with us, that

21 he was in contact with Mr. Sefer Halilovic, they were forming the 8th

22 Muslim Brigade, and that they did not wish to talk with us at all. And

23 that's when we ended our meeting. They didn't allow us to go inside.

24 MR. NEUNER: Can Exhibit 136 please be shown.

25 Q. Is this the document which relates to your visit you just

Page 1704

1 described?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Moving on, you mentioned the forming of the 8th Muslim Brigade.

4 What happened to some soldiers of the 306th Brigade when the Mujahedin

5 attempted to form their unit?

6 A. Some soldiers --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, just a second.

8 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an extremely

10 leading question. First of all, he has to establish that something had

11 happened, and then he can move on. I haven't heard so far that anything

12 had happened to the soldiers of the 306th.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.


15 Q. Mr. Delalic, you mentioned in page 11, line 3, that the Mujahedin

16 claimed to form the 8th Muslim Brigade. What effect, if any, did the

17 alleged forming of this 8th Muslim Brigade have on 306th Brigade soldiers?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the first place, was the 8th Muslim Brigade

19 formed?

20 MR. NEUNER: I rephrase that.

21 Q. Did the Mujahedin form the 8th Muslim Brigade?

22 A. No, they did not.

23 Q. What formation, if any, could be accomplished by the Mujahedin?

24 A. Well, they didn't have enough personnel to establish a brigade,

25 probably, but they did have a number of Bosniaks who had crossed over to

Page 1705

1 them. We call these people the Muslim Forces, but they were not within

2 any one of the brigades that was in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in that

3 period.

4 In order to establish the 8th Muslim Brigade, it was our

5 assessment that the 306th Brigade would have to be broken up, and that was

6 very important for us for safeguarding the area in the valley.

7 Q. You mentioned that Bosniaks crossed over to them, to the

8 Mujahedin. From which units did they cross over?

9 A. Well, usually from all units, but quite a few went from the 306th

10 Brigade, in terms of what we had there, there were about 50 or 40 persons.

11 In the initial stage, as far as I can remember, Ramo Durmis was the leader

12 of the Bosniaks with the Mujahedin.

13 MR. NEUNER: I wish to show you PT1440, a document from the 2nd of

14 August, 1993, and I'm particularly interested, after the first page has

15 been shown, in the list attached to this document. This should be the

16 next pages. I think it's one further. There is a list. I think it's the

17 very last page. Yes.

18 Q. If you please look at this list, and my question to you is whether

19 these soldiers are from the 306th Brigade.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

23 please be given an exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 256.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 1706

1 MR. NEUNER: I wish to show you now document PT1480, a document

2 from three weeks later 20th August, 1993. A document authored by

3 Mr. Ahmed Adilovic, and it has also a list attached. I'm just interested

4 in the list for the time being. Thank you.

5 Q. If you could please look at the list and tell us whether these are

6 soldiers from the 306th Brigade.

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, there are quite a few soldiers from this list who

8 left the 306th Brigade, but there are some who left before the 306th

9 Brigade had been established, so therefore had not been in the 306th

10 Brigade.

11 Q. And these people -- okay. But you recognise the majority of these

12 people; yeah?

13 A. I don't know -- well, I know about 30 per cent of them.

14 MR. NEUNER: Can I please tender this document into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 257.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. NEUNER: I wish to move on to another section dealing with

20 combat with the HVO at the beginning of June 1993.

21 Q. Where have you been in late May, early June, 1993?

22 A. Late in May and the beginning of June 1993, I was at the Basic

23 Command Post at Rudnik.

24 Q. This is the Basic Command Post of the 306th Brigade?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1707

1 Q. Where was your commander at that time?

2 A. Well, the situation itself on the ground, the Bilanska [phoen]

3 Valley, was broken up into four or five entities. The commander, with

4 part of his assistant commanders, was in the village of Krpeljici.

5 Q. And how was the situation there?

6 A. Well, the situation was very difficult, you know. We could not

7 communicate with anybody. The Basic Command Post in Rudnik was encircled

8 for about 20 days, and it was shelled all the time. The commander, with

9 part of his assistant commanders, was in Krpeljici, and they were also

10 encircled. They could not even go anywhere. Some were in Han Bila

11 encircled as well with the commander of the 3rd Battalion. They couldn't

12 go anywhere, either.

13 Part of the Basic Command Post of Rudnik was cut off. Ali Hodja

14 and the rest. I think that the assistant commander for replenishment was

15 there, and he couldn't get anywhere, either. So the situation was really

16 difficult.

17 Q. How was the situation solved for Commander Sipic in Krpeljici?

18 A. Well, the factual situation at the time was that the HVO

19 controlled the dominant features, and also they had put up check-points

20 and we couldn't move about.

21 The first thing that happened was that they presented an ultimatum

22 to the village of Letici, which was behind Brankovac and Cifluk down

23 there, told them to move out, to hand over their weapons and move out,

24 which is what they did the end of May, beginning of June, I think.

25 The second thing that happened was that on the 4th of June, in

Page 1708

1 1993, an ultimatum was presented to Velika Bukovica to hand over their

2 weapons and move out. They did not agree to that, and the HVO immediately

3 starting -- started hitting them. The fighting went on for two days until

4 the HVO managed to place under their control the village of

5 Velika Bukovica.

6 In that period we were receiving alarming news at the Basic

7 Command Post, although communication was difficult. Radio communications

8 were used. The last thing we heard was that there were 18 dead and 6

9 wounded, as far as I can remember. We sent this telegram further on to

10 our commander, and that required action for deblocking and

11 Velika Bukovica.

12 The commander sent a telegram up there to Mehurici asking for a

13 deblockade of Velika Bukovica to be carried out. That's sometime around

14 the 6th, I think, that he asked for this, for the action to start on the

15 7th. But at that moment, our forces were not ready for that.

16 Following these telegrams at the Basic Command Post, my estimate

17 was that the action could start on the 8th, which is indeed what happened,

18 the 8th, and the 9th the situation was resolved. Velika Bukovica was

19 deblocked.

20 Q. Via which way from Mehurici was Velika Bukovica deblocked?

21 A. I was at the Basic Command Post. I could not follow this. But

22 during my first testimony, I said that our forces, I don't know what

23 strength it was, left from Suhi Dol and Mehurici. That is what I heard.

24 Q. In which direction?

25 A. Well, towards Maline and Velika Bukovica.

Page 1709

1 MR. NEUNER: I wish to show you document PT1852, a document

2 entitled "Report and Proposal of the Bosanska Krajina", and this report

3 and proposal is made to the 3rd Corps. And if you please only look at the

4 second-last paragraph from the bottom, yes. It says here it has been

5 ordered -- if the English could be moved down a little bit, please. Thank

6 you. I think on the English it's page 2, actually, the third paragraph.

7 Yes, you can stop here:

8 "It has been ordered," the third paragraph says, that "Esad Sipic

9 should, organise one battalion strong unit (300 men) from the part of the

10 306th BBL and from residence of the village of Mehurici to move on the

11 axis, the village of Maline, the village of Radonjici, the village of

12 Krpeljici."

13 Is that what you just described, what happened on the 8th of June?

14 A. I haven't seen this document. I cannot make any comments

15 regarding that document. I don't think that Commander Sipic had received

16 this document, either. He couldn't have.

17 Q. But reading the document now, does that not confirm what you just

18 told us, that from Mehurici troops moved via Maline towards Krpeljici?

19 That's my only question.

20 A. They were moving towards Velika Bukovica, not towards Krpeljici,

21 because Krpeljici had a Bosniak population.

22 MR. NEUNER: Can I tender this document into evidence, please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 258.

Page 1710

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


3 Q. Was, in the course of the 8th June combat activities you just

4 described, happening anything of a security concern?

5 A. On the 8th of June -- I mean I was at the Basic Command Post up

6 until the 11th of June at Rudnik. When I came to Mehurici, I saw that in

7 the school there was a large number of refugees. Actually, that is where

8 they were protected, in a way. Part of the military-aged persons were

9 also staying in part of Kovacnice [phoen]. I found out from my desk

10 officer -- I went to see him immediately, and he told me that part of

11 them -- well, he wasn't so sure. I think he said that part of them had

12 been abducted by the Military Police of the 1st Battalion that was in

13 charge of these persons.

14 When I came to Mehurici, then this was confirmed to me by

15 Mr. Zukanovic, who was the Assistant Commander for Security Affairs of the

16 1st Battalion; namely, that 20 to 25 people had been abducted and that

17 they were missing, totally.

18 Q. And did you manage to establish the fate of these 20 to 25

19 missing?

20 A. Well, the commander scheduled a meeting of the Command on the 12th

21 of June in Krpeljici. We were there, the corps of the Command, that is,

22 and I said that there were some indications to the effect that these

23 people had been killed, perhaps, and I ordered Hasan Zukanovic to carry

24 out an investigation, a full investigation, as to how this happened, who

25 the perpetrator was, et cetera. I immediately reported to the superior

Page 1711

1 command about this, and 15 days later the investigations that I had at

2 that point showed that the perpetrators were the Mujahedin, that there

3 weren't any members who -- members of the 306th Brigade that were involved

4 in this, and I informed about the investigation the Security Command of

5 the 3rd Corps, and by virtue of that fact I could not continue

6 investigating because in that period no one could enter the Mujahedin

7 camp.

8 Q. In the course of the investigation you just mentioned, were the

9 bodies of the 20 to 25 persons inspected?

10 A. As for the sanitization of the terrain, as far as I learned, it

11 was carried out by the Civil Protection on the 9th, immediately, between

12 Bikosi-Maline. The so-called Pjescara, as far as I know, that was not

13 looked at.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a clarification

16 with the witness. There has been a misinterpretation. It says here on

17 page 21 that part of them, meaning these people, had been abducted by the

18 Military Police of the 1st Battalion, so it sounds as if it's the Military

19 Police that had abducted of the 1st Battalion, but the witness actually

20 said something different, that they had been abducted from the Military

21 Police, if I understood it correctly.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you're referring us to page 21.

23 According to my screen, I'm still on page 19. Let me see if --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Page 17, line 19 through

25 21.

Page 1712

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to verify that with the witness,

2 Mr. Neuner?


4 Q. Witness, the 20 to 25 persons, from whom were these people

5 abducted?

6 A. The Military Police of the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade was

7 taking all of these people, civilians and military-age men, towards -- and

8 it was the Mujahedin, with masked persons, who had abducted them, unknown

9 persons to this day. It is assumed these persons were Bosniaks who were

10 with the Mujahedin.

11 Q. Thank you. I want to now ask for a clarification of what you said

12 earlier about the Civil Protection. You said on the 9th they sanitised

13 the Teha [phoen]. Are you referring to the 9th of June, 1993?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And then it says, it is almost disappearing in the transcript,

16 "the so-called Pjescara"? Can you clarify what you meant by this? They

17 were sanitizing, and then you said something about Pjescara?

18 A. They picked up the bodies, dead bodies, that is sanitization of

19 the area, and they buried them in Pescara, the locality of Pjescara.

20 Q. Had you ever been at that location?

21 A. Well, I passed by that location. I wasn't there. I wasn't born

22 too far away from that place.

23 Q. When did you pass by that location, please?

24 A. Well, I passed there during the war, after the war, before the

25 war, whatever.

Page 1713

1 Q. Did you pass by that location after the bodies had been buried

2 there by the Civil Protection?

3 A. Not immediately, because I had a lot of work in the brigade and on

4 the terrain, along the defence lines.

5 Q. Did you pass by later?

6 A. Well, I cannot remember when I passed after that because, really,

7 I used a vehicle to go out to the terrain, but maybe two or three months

8 later I passed by.

9 Q. This would be, then, the month of October?

10 A. I cannot remember exactly. I have said this officially now, two

11 or three months after that.

12 Q. What did you observe two or three months later in Pjescara?

13 A. Well, look, this is a terrain where sand was taken out of the

14 ground, and it was not my job to see how people were being buried and in

15 what way. Why they were not buried at the cemetery, the Civilian

16 Protection dealt with that, and it's best for you to ask them why it was

17 that they buried them there. I was not there, as a matter of fact, when

18 the terrain was sanitized.

19 Q. Did anybody of your Military Security Service ever look at the

20 bodies before or after they were buried?

21 A. I don't think that they had time to look at them, because

22 Zukanovic came around the 10th. He was in hospital in Zenica, and they

23 brought him there ill on the 10th in Mehurici, and I'm saying that the

24 bodies had been buried by them.

25 Q. Were these bodies ever exhumed?

Page 1714

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. And did anybody from your Military Security Service look at these

3 bodies after they were exhumed?

4 A. I don't know. Nobody asked us for anything like that, and as far

5 as I recall, I did not.

6 Q. And when were they exhumed?

7 A. I don't know that, either.

8 Q. Was, after the completion of the investigation, ever a criminal

9 report filed about what was learned by your service through the

10 investigation?

11 A. All the information we had, compiled by Mr. Zukanovic, who was a

12 policeman before the war, I think if you believe that we were that

13 capable, I'm going to say that we weren't actually, but he was an active

14 military policeman, he worked as such. So whatever he compiled we

15 forwarded it to the Security Administration of the 3rd Corps.

16 Q. In the form of a criminal report?

17 A. He took statements on the record from military policemen, and then

18 later he put everything on paper, together with an official note, saying

19 that the outcome of the investigation was that no participants or

20 perpetrators belonged to the 306th Brigade, and we didn't know who the

21 perpetrators were. And as far as we were concerned, we did not -- or we

22 were unable to have any further influence on the further course of the

23 investigation.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again a matter of

Page 1715

1 translation. Page 22, lines, I think, 3 and 4, the witness said: "We

2 wrote who did that," and in the transcript it says: "We did not know who

3 did it." So we would just like to have that clarified with the witness.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.


6 Q. You heard what my learned colleague said. Did you wrote who was

7 the perpetrator of the crime at Bikosi?

8 A. We said that it was indisputable that the act was committed by the

9 Mujahedin unit, which in that period, was not under the control of the

10 Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. I want to show you document PT1423 from the 24th of July, 1993.

12 It's a protest from the 306th Brigade.

13 My first question -- okay, there are a couple of names listed here

14 in this document, and in the text it says that criminal reports had been

15 filed. Were these - that's my only question - the criminal reports filed

16 by your Military Security Service at that point in time, meaning the 24th

17 of July, 1993?

18 A. This is our protest. It's our document, the Military Security

19 Administration, and I think it referred to the fact that the District

20 Military Prosecutor from Travnik gave information that they received only

21 one criminal report from the 306th Mountain Brigade. And then based on

22 that information, Mr. Haris Jusic drafted this document and provided the

23 numbers and the dates when the criminal reports were submitted, as well as

24 the names of the persons. It was a matter of 11 criminal reports that

25 were submitted.

Page 1716

1 Q. Filed until the 24th of July, 1993, by your Military Security

2 Service; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender that document into evidence, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 259.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. NEUNER: I want to take you to October 1993.

10 Q. My first question is: You said earlier 15 days after you learned

11 about the incident in Bikosi in June, the investigation was completed.

12 Was the investigation ever reopened into the Bikosi events?

13 A. From what I can remember, I don't think that it was, no.

14 Q. How long did you remain with the 306th Military Security Service?

15 A. Until the 14th of February, 1996, when I was demobilised upon my

16 personal request.

17 Q. Until then, was your Service ever investigating again or reopening

18 an investigation into the Bikosi events from June 1993?

19 A. No, because we believed that we had no authority over the

20 perpetrators of this act.

21 Q. Have you ever seen a letter drafted for you in October 1993 which

22 referred to the events in Bikosi on the 8th of June, 1993?

23 A. No.

24 MR. NEUNER: If Exhibit 140 may please be shown to this witness.

25 Q. You see the document here. Have you ever seen that document?

Page 1717

1 A. In the testimony -- my testimony in 2005, I saw this document for

2 the first time.

3 Q. I can see that the document is signed for you. How was the

4 procedure at the time when documents are signed for you?

5 A. All the documents sent to the Superior Command that was of

6 importance was signed by me. Official notes were signed by the person who

7 had drafted the official notes, because they were responsible for the

8 accuracy of the data, while criminal reports were signed by Mr. Haris

9 Jusic.

10 Q. This is a report here, as the title says. How was the procedure

11 if somebody in your service signs a report for you?

12 A. I would happen to be away several times, because I was also

13 obliged to go to the Forward Command Post. If I wasn't there, then

14 somebody had to sign the documents of urgency in my stead. I did not sign

15 this document, and I didn't see it until 2005.

16 Q. On the 19th of October, when this document is signed, October

17 1993, where have you been?

18 A. I was most probably at the Forward Command Post.

19 Q. What Forward Command Post are we talking about?

20 A. Our Forward Command Post was at Parica Greda at Mount Vlasic that

21 was facing the Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor.

22 Q. Is that the only forward command post of the 306th Brigade?

23 A. In that period, yes.

24 Q. From when to when did you stay at this Forward Command Post?

25 A. It would usually last for a week, and then after that you would

Page 1718

1 get a day or two of rest. Sometimes it would be even longer, depending on

2 the situation in the field.

3 Q. So your answer today is -- how long did you stay there?

4 A. At least nine days.

5 Q. I have a diary entry for you. This is PT1020A. It's a diary of

6 the 306th Mountain Brigade.

7 While this is being shown, can I ask you: Have you ever seen

8 General Alagic at the IKM?

9 A. On Vlasic, Parica Greda, I cannot remember.

10 Q. If we scroll down here in the B/C/S version of the document, and

11 in the English it should please be the second page, this is an entry

12 relating to 1600 hours on the 17th of October. It's the last entry. It

13 says here at 1600 hours there was a briefing with the Bosanska Krajina

14 commander in the IKM.

15 Do you recall that meeting, since you were at the IKM of the 306th

16 Brigade?

17 A. I cannot remember. That was a long time ago and it was a long

18 period. There were various meetings.

19 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender the document into evidence.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, I don't

22 see the basis for tendering this document. Secondly, I would like to ask

23 my learned friends from the Prosecutors, so that we could follow the

24 proceedings, first to receive excerpts from the diary, because we just get

25 numbers with a large number of pages and then it's very difficult to

Page 1719

1 follow. We cannot locate what the Prosecutor is asking questions about.

2 I've encountered this problem several times before. A diary

3 numbering several hundred pages, and then I cannot know what the point of

4 the questioning is, and it's hard for us then to prepare for

5 cross-examination in view of this particular problem.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, would it be okay for you to ask

7 questions -- to object while seated. If you would just like to switch on

8 your light, you can object while seated, in line with your request the

9 other day. Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Neuner, are you able to answer that? As there was quite a

11 number of points raised in that objection.

12 MR. NEUNER: I can say the Prosecution faced the same situation,

13 in a way, that we ourselves had to dig through this diary, which as my

14 learned colleague says, has a number of pages, and we ourselves had only

15 certain pages translated to this point. And I, myself, have learned,

16 through a proofing which took place relatively recently, meaning

17 yesterday, that the witness stated he was at this IKM. So it was only

18 yesterday, in the course of the afternoon, that we, ourselves, learned

19 that this date was indeed of relevance, and we just went again to access

20 this lengthy document after what we had learned from the witness.

21 We have tried to make a very timely disclosure of the proofing

22 note yesterday to our learned colleagues, and I can say I was in the same

23 footing as my learned colleague for this.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, there is no objection to the tendering

25 of the document, but there is no basis for the tendering. Do you have any

Page 1720

1 response to that?

2 MR. NEUNER: I'm prepared to ask Mr. Delalic about the cover of

3 the 306th Mountain Brigade war diary and whether he can, in general,

4 acknowledge that this is the diary which was used at the time.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You do have questions to ask to the witness

6 to establish the basis. Go ahead.

7 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

8 Q. We have now isolated this one page --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long are you going to be with establishing the

10 basis?

11 MR. NEUNER: I think two minutes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Two minutes?

13 MR. NEUNER: Yes.


15 MR. NEUNER: If the usher could assist, please, just having the PT

16 number 1020 displayed. This is just one page we isolated.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 1020 or 1020A?

18 MR. NEUNER: This is 1020A, and this is an excerpt taken out of

19 this longer war diary. We didn't want to tender the entire war diary.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 MR. NEUNER: To save time, the Prosecution would even have a hard

22 copy of the cover page here. Okay, it's already on the e-court, I see.

23 Q. Do you remember the cover page of this, Mr. Delalic?

24 A. This diary was at the Basic Command Post.

25 Q. Of the 306th Brigade, you're referring to?

Page 1721

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. So if I would say that we have isolated the one page I showed to

3 you earlier out of this diary, would you think that this is an authentic

4 piece from the war diary used at the time by your brigade?

5 A. The duty officers would write the entries, so I don't know what to

6 say about that. Not -- there wasn't one person that was maintaining the

7 war diary. All the compiled information and data would be entered into

8 the diary.

9 Q. If you look again at the entry from the 17th of October, does that

10 look like the war diary used at the time by the 306th Mountain Brigade?

11 If we could please have PT1020A shown.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the Prosecutors

14 put factual questions that are in the diary and not this?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're now five minutes beyond the time for a break.

16 Do you think you can carry on with this basis laying when we come back?

17 MR. NEUNER: Yes, I can.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll come back at 4.00.

19 Court adjourned.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we went for the break, Madam Vidovic

23 was suggesting that you ask factual questions to establish the basis for

24 tendering the document. Do you have any response to that, Mr. Neuner?


Page 1722

1 Q. Mr. Delalic, can you explain how these war diaries of the 306th

2 were compiled at the time?

3 A. Well, I've already said that the war diary was done by the duty

4 officer on the basis of information collected from the field for that

5 particular day.

6 Q. And where would the duty operations officer sit?

7 A. Well, at the Basic Command Post. I don't know now, was it in

8 Guca Gora or was it -- no, I think it was at Guca Gora.

9 MR. NEUNER: On that basis, Your Honour, I would like to tender

10 this document into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 260.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


16 Q. I have another question relating to the October events. Could the

17 document PT-1589 please be shown. This is in response from the 3rd Corps,

18 Mr. Delalic, dating the 21st of October. And in the B/C/S version we

19 would be interested in the last line of that document. In the English,

20 it's the second page and the second line there.

21 We discussed this a moment ago. It talks here about Pjescara. You

22 mentioned at this location. It says here:

23 "A total of 25 soldiers and civilians were collected in one spot

24 and buried in two graves between the villages (illegible) and Maline at

25 the place known as Pjescara."

Page 1723

1 This relates to the Bikosi events. And if we could go at the end

2 of this document, meaning in the B/C/S, it would be the next page, to the

3 second-last paragraph of the document. It says here, in the first line:

4 "The Assistant Commander for Security from the 306th Brigade

5 visited the location ..."

6 Do you remember having visited Pjescara in October 1993, as the

7 document alleges?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you believe you have visited it earlier or later?

10 A. I did not go to Pjescara with anyone to see it. I passed by it

11 myself when I was going home.

12 Q. And when was this? This document is from the 21st of October,

13 1993.

14 A. I already mentioned, two or three months after that I took a

15 shortcut to my village where I lived.

16 Q. Two or three months after what, please?

17 A. Well, after those events in Maline.

18 Q. So two or three months. This would be August or September 1993;

19 yeah?

20 A. All right.

21 MR. NEUNER: Could the document at least be marked for

22 identification, Your Honours?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document should be marked for identification.

24 May it please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 261.

Page 1724

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 MR. NEUNER: I come to my -- excuse me.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I?

5 This document has already been admitted into evidence as D231, but

6 in a more legible version. Exhibit 231.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, was it Exhibit 231 or was it D231? And you

8 may remain seated.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 231.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you accept that, Mr. --

11 MR. NEUNER: Certainly. An oversight by our side.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you very much. Then the document has

13 already been admitted as an exhibit, and it may not -- it need not be

14 marked for identification any longer. Thank you so much.


16 Q. I come to my last line of questions relating to combat operations

17 of the 306th Brigade. Mr. Delalic, I wish to show you PT1539. This is

18 again an entry in the war diary of the 306th Brigade, this time from the

19 9th of September, and I'm interested in the last sentence. It says here:

20 "The Commander of the OG Bosanska Krajina and a representative of

21 the El Mujahedin visited our Command."

22 Do you recall that event?

23 A. No.

24 MR. NEUNER: I wish to leave the document marked for

25 identification, please.

Page 1725

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document be marked for identification. May

2 it be given an exhibit number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: This is will be MFI 261.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


6 Q. You want to say something?

7 A. If I could see here that in that period I was visiting the 1st

8 Mountain Battalion with Mr. Husic.

9 Q. Yes. Do you recall this?

10 A. Well, look, 15 years is a long time. I cannot remember

11 everything, so I cannot remember whether commander of the OG Bosanska

12 Krajina received the representatives or what -- whatever.

13 Q. But do you recall your visit to the 1st Brigade or 1st Battalion?

14 A. Well, look, every day we went -- well, if I were to remember each

15 and every individual thing that happened, I would be the biggest computer

16 in the world.

17 MR. NEUNER: I leave it here and move on to the next exhibit,

18 which dates a day later, the 10th of September, 1993, PT1542, a report by

19 the 306th Mountain Brigade to the OG Bosanska Krajina. We would need the

20 first page of the B/C/S, and the end of the second paragraph is relevant

21 for Mr. Delalic, and in the English it's the first page at the end,

22 running into then the second page. I would just read out the, to save

23 time, the relevant portion.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. You're left with about four minutes.

25 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

Page 1726

1 "Our units," it says,"In coordination with the 325th Brigade and

2 the El Mujahedin detachment took some positions previously held by the HVO

3 units."

4 My question to you is: Do you know where Djotline Kuce is

5 located?

6 A. It is possible that our units acted there in concert, but

7 El Mujahedin never functioned under the command of the 306th Brigade.

8 Q. My question to you was whether you know where Djotline Kuce is,

9 the location mentioned. That's all I want to know.

10 A. Djotline Kuce, I know.

11 Q. Where is it, where is this?

12 A. Somewhere in the area of the Vitez Municipality.

13 MR. NEUNER: We should tender this document into evidence, Your

14 Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 262.


19 Q. The last document is from the 28th of July, PT1430, again a

20 document of the 306th Mountain Brigade. We need, from the B/C/S version,

21 page 1. The beginning of the last main paragraph, if you would please

22 look at this. This is a document from Halim Husic, and in the English

23 version page 2, the beginning of the last main paragraph on page 2,

24 please. And I'm reading out the relevant portion:

25 "In Hrasce, (688), where the latest offensive conducted by our

Page 1727

1 forces failed. Our forces tried several times, but it was unsuccessful

2 like this time."

3 Could you tell us where Hrasce the location is located, please?

4 A. I know Hrasce as 688, Feature 688, but as far as I know, even

5 before the fighting started in the area of Velika Bukovica and afterwards,

6 it was in the hands of the HVO, and it was a dominant feature at that.

7 From there, they -- they opened sniper fire at our lines all the time.

8 Q. How far away from Guca Gora is this Hrasce location, roughly?

9 A. Well, I cannot say exactly. Perhaps a kilometre to a kilometre

10 and a half.

11 MR. NEUNER: I would like to tender this document into evidence,

12 and I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, I have a small question for the

14 witness.

15 Witness, that very sentence that was read by counsel, it says:

16 "In Hrasce (688), where the latest offensive conducted by our

17 forces failed, 17," and then "314, Mujahedin and our forces tried the same

18 several times ..."

19 Now, did at any stage the Mujahedin and your forces fight side by

20 side? This is what seems to be suggested by that sentence.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think they didn't in this area. As

22 far as I know, in this area, with our unit, the El Mujahed Unit never

23 fought together with our unit.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the El Mujahedin ever fight with your unit at

25 any other time at any other place?

Page 1728

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, somewhere there may have

2 been cooperation, but it certainly never fought under the command of the

3 306th Brigade. That is what I state here categorically.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that I understood. All I want to find out is

5 whether they fought side by side with each other at any stage during the

6 war. You have answered that. You said, yes, they probably had. They

7 were in cooperation with you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, possibly at Djotline Kuce,

9 but I don't know of them cooperating with us, acting in concert with us,

10 anywhere.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Any cross-examination, Madam Vidovic?

13 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, may I just ask that the document be

14 admitted.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon.

16 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

17 exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 263.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 Madam Vidovic. You may remain seated, Madam.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examination by Madam Vidovic:

23 Q. Good afternoon.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, and I'm going to be putting questions to you

Page 1729

1 today on behalf of the Defence of General Rasim Delic.

2 Cross-examination, by its very nature, means that you can give

3 "yes" or "no" answers to most of my questions, unless you feel it is

4 necessary to clarify something or if the Honourable Trial Chamber asks you

5 to do that. Since there are many questions, I kindly ask you to give

6 "yes" or "no" whenever possible.

7 Have you understood me?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 Q. One more thing, one more thing. We speak the same language. I

10 will do my best, and you please do your best to pause between question and

11 answer so that the transcript would record the answers.

12 Have you understood me?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You told us that you were born in the village of Suhi Dol,

15 Municipality of Travnik and that that's where you grew up, too?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You completed a secondary school for printers; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You did not complete any police course, or did you do any kind of

20 police work before the war; is that right?

21 A. No, I did not complete any police course, but I was leader of a

22 squad of the Military Police in the former Yugoslav Peoples Army, as I've

23 already mentioned.

24 Q. Yes. So this was a course for squad leaders in the infantry; is

25 that right?

Page 1730

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. It was your testimony that at the beginning of the war, you were

3 in a military police company of the municipal headquarters of the

4 Territorial Defence; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In that period, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have rules

7 for the work of the Military Police; isn't that right?

8 A. It didn't.

9 Q. What you did was bringing into custody persons who had not

10 responded to call-ups, mobilisation?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You provided security for buildings?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In actual fact that is the experience that you had as a military

15 policeman from the Territorial Defence Staff?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were Assistant Commander for Security in the detachment of the

18 Territorial Defence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When the 306th Brigade was established, you assumed duty of the

21 Assistant for Security of that brigade; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Not in a single one of these two stages of your military service

24 were you professionally trained to work in military security?

25 A. No.

Page 1731

1 Q. The officers who are supposed to work in military security of the

2 brigade, according to establishment, should have university degrees; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. They should be officers with a completed military academy, the

6 security stream; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As for Assistant Commander for Security, according to the rules

9 that were in force in the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

10 in other armies, too, a brigadier or a colonel should hold that position;

11 is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. These rules were adopted in the autumn of 1992. Do you remember

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In 1993, in Biljanska Dolina, you quite simply did not have such

17 officers; is that right?

18 A. We didn't.

19 Q. Other persons in the 306th Brigade, in the Security Organ, did not

20 have professional knowledge from the field of security; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. They didn't have them?

23 A. They didn't have them.

24 Q. Commander of the Platoon of the 306th Brigade, Sabanovic Suad, he

25 was also not trained for that duty?

Page 1732

1 A. He wasn't.

2 Q. In your work, you cooperated with the civilian police in Mehurici;

3 is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The civilian police was in charge of protecting civilians during

6 the war and their property; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The civilian police in Mehurici was also poorly armed and poorly

9 equipped, like the army; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. They did not have enough long rifles; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Only a few?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now I'm going to ask you something briefly about the situation in

16 the Travnik area.

17 After the conflict in Novi Travnik in October 1992, the HVO

18 established a line vis a vis the Muslim villages; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The forces of the HVO did that also in the area of Maline towards

21 the village of Suhi Dol and that's where you're from, where you were born?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now have the

24 witness look at Exhibit P98. For the transcript, before the witness sees

25 the document, I would like to say that this is a document of the 306th

Page 1733

1 Brigade of the 11th of April, 1993, entitled "Report by the Security

2 Organ." This is D98.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, is this an exhibit or is it a "D98"

4 document?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's D98, Your Honour. It's still

6 not an exhibit.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's just that you're calling it an Exhibit D98, so

8 call it "document D98".

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, I'm going to quote only a small excerpt from this

11 document, the first sentence of this document, which states:

12 "According to latest information, we have obtained information

13 that an HVO/Croatian Defence Council/brigade is being formed in our zone

14 of responsibility with the Brigade Command Post in the village of

15 Guca Gora. The name of the brigade is the Frankopan, the brigade

16 commander is Ilija Nakic."

17 And then a little bit lower, the command post, Your Honours, it's

18 somewhere in the middle of the third paragraph, it says, the command post

19 of the second reserve battalion is in the village of Guca Gora and it

20 covers right -- the ground on the left bank of the Bila River and it

21 represents the villages: Guca Gora, Velika Bukovica, Radonjici, Maline,

22 Podstinje, Pokrajcici, and Sarici."

23 In relation to this document, witness, the Frankopan Brigade

24 covered the area of the villages mentioned in this document including

25 Maline; am I correct?

Page 1734

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

3 please be admitted and given an exhibit number.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 264.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. In mid-April 1992, and you confirmed this in response to a

10 question by the Prosecutor, the Bila area was blocked by the HVO.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like the witness to

12 look at D220, please. It's a report by the 306th Brigade of the 13th of

13 April, 1993.

14 Q. Witness, please, can you look at the part of the document under

15 "3" just below the title: "HVO." I'm going to read a small excerpt:

16 "It has been established that a large number of HVO members

17 stationed in the villages are people from outside. New check-points have

18 been set up, and the old ones in the usual places have been fortified:

19 The Han Bila-Zenica road at Ovnak, the Rudnik-Nova Bila above Pokrajcici,

20 Rudnik-Goca Gora on Mount Kosovo, and several check-points outside on the

21 Guca-Gora Travnik road."

22 I would just like to ask you whether this document attests

23 correctly to the situation that was in the field at that time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it true that the HVO, in the course of April 1993, brought in a

Page 1735

1 lot of people to the area who were not from there, they were from the

2 outside; are you aware of that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would just like you to look further down on the page of this

5 document. Actually, in the English version it's on page 2, and it has to

6 do with communications. It's the last sentence in the first paragraph,

7 which states:

8 "Communications and the security of communications with Travnik

9 are also poor and unreliable. The situation is not improving regarding

10 communications with the OG West Command, Bugojno, so observations made in

11 previous reports still apply."

12 Do you agree that at the time that communications were poor and

13 unreliable between your brigade and Travnik as well as the Command in

14 Bugojno?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This situation lasted until your area was unblocked in June 1993;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 265.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in connection to

Page 1736

1 answers the witness gave to questions by the Prosecutor regarding the

2 village of Velika Bukovica linked to the events of the 8th of April, I

3 would like to place this map on the ELMO showing the area of the Bila

4 region.

5 Q. Witness, I am going to ask you to find Velika Bukovica and circle

6 it, please. I think that perhaps it's to the left.

7 And in the lower left-hand corner, you can see it, Witness, if I

8 may assist you, and all you need to do is to point it out for the Trial

9 Chamber, and if you can circle it.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And you can see Velika Bukovica there and Mala Bukovica. That's

12 the area. Can you please circle that, please?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you very much. And I'm going to ask you also to point out

15 to the Trial Chamber the area of Hajdareve Njive. It's near Travnik, that

16 place is near Travnik. You can allow us to see Travnik. That's right.

17 And can you please help us and indicate where that is?

18 A. This part and then this part [indicates].

19 Q. This is called Hajdareve Njive?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Can you circle that, and, please, can you

22 circle where you indicated, Witness, and since you cannot see it on the

23 map --

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Yes. Can you also write down in your own writing the words

Page 1737

1 "Hajdareve Njive"?

2 A. On the side or here [indicates].

3 Q. There, there, Hajdareve Njive?

4 A. [Marks]

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.

6 Your Honours, could this map be given an exhibit number, please?

7 Perhaps it could be photographed electronically, if possible.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

9 be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 266.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 And now, in respect of Velika Bukovica, I'm going to ask you some

14 questions.

15 I would like the witness to look at D222, please. For the

16 transcript, it's D222. This is a report of the 306th Brigade Security

17 Service, and it bears the date the 28th of June, 1993.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the 26th of June,

19 1993.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And if you can look at the

21 introductory paragraph stating:

22 "Made on the 26th of May, 1993, in the village of Velika

23 Bukovica, in respect to the attack of the HVO units on this village on the

24 4th of April, 1993, and taking the Muslims" --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Madam Vidovic.

Page 1738

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. So it's a record made

2 on the 26th of June, 1993, in the village of Velika Bukovica, in respect

3 to the attack of the HVO units on this village on the 4th of June, 1993,

4 and taking the Muslims to the prison.

5 Q. I would like to ask you the following: This is a document drafted

6 by your security organ; do you recall that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I would just like you to look at a small excerpt of this

9 document, which states on the first day, somewhere in the middle of the

10 page -- let's just see where it is in the English version. It begins with

11 the words: "On the first day ..." It's towards the end of the page.

12 Very well:

13 "On the first day of the attack, seven members of the armija were

14 killed as follows:"

15 And then they're named. And then:

16 "On the 8th of June, 1993, HVO soldiers took all of us who stayed

17 alive from the village, total number of 88 people, to Konjska to be used

18 as human shields."

19 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

20 Q. What I would like to ask you is this: Konjska is a part of the

21 Skradno village in the Bukovica Municipality; is that correct?

22 A. Konjska is on a plateau above Velika Bukovica.

23 Q. All right, very well. Did you have information that these people

24 were taken to the village of Skradno in the Bukovica Municipality?

25 A. We had information that they were first taken to Nova Bila, where

Page 1739

1 a large number of the young women were abused in a dishonourable way, and

2 then after that they were taken down towards Busovaca.

3 Q. All right. So then they were taken to the area of Busovaca?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

6 given an exhibit number, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

8 please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 267.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I showed this document

12 because of Exhibit 170, so can we now have Exhibit 170, which is under

13 seal, and perhaps we can move into private session because of that.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1740











11 Pages 1740-1744 redacted. Private session















Page 1745

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, now I'd like to ask you something about the 306th

21 Brigade, and could you look at Exhibit 142, please. For the transcript,

22 this is a document of the Command of the 306th Brigade. It seems that it

23 was signed by the witness, and I would like the witness to have a look at

24 it. That's fine, thank you.

25 Witness, you can see the document. Can you recognise this

Page 1746

1 document, or do you want us to have a look at page 2 as well? Please,

2 anyway, can we have the document moved so that we see where the signature

3 is?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. If you look at the document, it indicates what problems follow the

6 establishment of the 306th Brigade in January; am I right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I see that you said here the leaderships of the local persons

9 who held meetings and promised zones of responsibility. Could you tell

10 us, quite briefly, what did you mean by this, "leadership of local

11 persons," what did you mean?

12 A. Well, individuals who -- well, the 306th Brigade could not be

13 formed at all, and they were making it disintegrate. They were promising

14 the peasants that they would be able to hold lines only above their own

15 villages.

16 Q. Thank you. In relation to this question, I just wonder whether I

17 understood what you were saying. These were people outside the military;

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who were these people; can you tell us?

21 A. Well, one of these people was Hadzira, Puric, Mira, I think was

22 his name. While the 306th Brigade was being established, some villages

23 seceded from it and joined the 314th Brigade. They didn't want to be with

24 us.

25 Q. Thank you. Then you indicated that at least two brigades did not

Page 1747

1 respect the corps order to take over the zone of responsibility on the 8th

2 of January; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then you pointed out that the soldiers in the field were not

5 sufficiently informed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now I'd like to ask you the following: Please, it is correct, is

8 it not, that the situation did not get any better over the following

9 months?

10 A. We constantly had to deal with a difficult situation, because from

11 starters we were given a very big area of responsibility facing the

12 Serb-Montenegrin aggressor. We were poorly armed, poorly equipped, there

13 was a lack of discipline, and if we look at all of that, these were the

14 problems that our brigade had to face.

15 Q. Please, is it correct that after the blockade of the area in

16 mid-April 1993, the situation the brigade, and in the corps, became even

17 more difficult?

18 A. Well, by virtue of the fact that the brigade, when it already

19 started functioning, had to face these conflicts and it was broken into

20 four or five entities --

21 Q. Thank you, thank you, you've already explained that.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

23 please be removed now, and could the witness --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] Been removed?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 254 shown to him by the

Page 1748

1 Prosecutor today, can it be shown again, please.

2 Q. Please, Witness, in this document you describe precisely the

3 situation that you talked about just now. I don't want to dwell on it

4 very long. You said that some commanders in units and some entire units

5 became disobedient, and you were informed about that, and then you talk

6 about the lack of command staff, and then also you say that there is

7 logistic security that is poor. You've already told us all of that.

8 The Prosecutor showed us, a few minutes ago, a document that

9 talks -- well, it's page 2 of this document, rather, Your Honours, so

10 could we see that again, page 2? Page 2. Actually, the Prosecutor

11 indicated to you here, at the very end of this page:

12 "A special security problem in our area of responsibility," you

13 said, and I quote:

14 " ... Are members of other units who are out of control of their

15 superior commands, and primarily these are members of the 7th Muslim

16 Brigade, and the status of the Mujahedin is something that we are not

17 fully aware of."

18 And then arbitrary behaviour is referred to.

19 Witness, please, is it not clear that this document fully

20 separates the 7th Muslim Brigade from the status of the Mujahedin?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Please, you -- in the field, did you ever experience the

23 following: That members of the 7th Muslim Brigade were the same as the

24 Muslims in Mehuric? Do you understand my question?

25 A. Have you finished that question?

Page 1749

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Members of the 7th Muslim Brigade were never stationed in Mehuric,

3 as far as I know, and there was personnel that was on furlough.

4 Q. I'll ask you about that --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll have to interrupt a little bit.

6 I'm sorry, when you started quoting from the document, we were

7 still on the previous page in the English. I'm trying to -- we've now

8 been turned over to the next page. I'm trying to find the quotation,

9 Madam Vidovic, from this document. If you can please direct us, on the

10 English page, where you quoted from. Your quotation, I think, started

11 where:

12 "Are members of other units who are out of control of their

13 superior commands ..."

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, English version. Can you

15 please -- Your Honours, the last section.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like you to

18 look at the continuation on page 3. That's what I was talking about to

19 the witness.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document can be removed now,

22 and I would like us to show the witness MFI 255, 255, MFI 255, page 2.

23 Your Honours, I'm sorry, it's page 3, actually.

24 Q. Witness, could you please carefully read this part:

25 "In the area of responsibility, serious problem --"

Page 1750

1 Your Honours, it says here:

2 "In the 3rd Corps area of responsibility ..."

3 That's where it starts.

4 Witness, I'm going to quote this to you now:

5 "In the 3rd Corps area of responsibility, arbitrary activity of

6 certain parts and members of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the 314th

7 Motorised Brigade which got out of control of their commands represents a

8 significant security problem. As a consequence of this, the already tense

9 situation with the HVO units is becoming more complex.

10 "On the 24th of April, 1993, members of the 7th Muslim Brigade

11 attacked the village of Gornji Miletici inhabited by Croat population on

12 which occasion five villagers were killed."

13 Please, Witness, a few moments ago I showed you the report of the

14 306th Brigade. You agreed that this report refers on one page to the

15 problems with the 7th Brigade and in another place problems with the

16 Mujahedin; am I right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please, did you ever report that members of the 7th Muslim

19 attacked Miletici?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Actually, it is not correct at all that members of the 7th Muslim

22 attacked Miletici; right?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, please, Witness, you worked on security matters and you wrote

25 reports and you communicated with superior commands. It is correct, is it

Page 1751

1 not, that these reports are written in the following way: First, the

2 brigade writes its report to the corps, and then the corps deals with it

3 and submits it to a higher command; am I right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you agree that in all this writing, there can be lack of

6 understanding and interpretations that actually never existed in the

7 original document?

8 A. Absolutely.

9 Q. And do you agree that the original document, the initial document

10 shown to you by the Prosecutor, has a completely different content from

11 that which appears here about the very same event?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Your Honours, I'll go back to some other questions related to the

15 7th Muslim unit later, but now this document can be removed.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document may be removed.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Based on the documents that we've seen before, it can be seen that

19 communications of the 306th Brigade were poor, communications with the

20 outside world?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned telegrams; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Based on that, I conclude that at the time of April, May, June

25 1993, the packet communications were not functioning; am I right?

Page 1752

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It's right that until the 10th of May, 1993, the 306th Brigade did

3 not have the packet communications; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And shortly after the packet communications arrived at the 306th,

6 it broke down and it had to be taken for repair; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened with the

9 packet communications then?

10 A. When the unit, repair unit, was coming to fix it at the crossing

11 in Travnik, the apparatus was confiscated, and I don't know how long they

12 kept it. After a while, a long while, they returned it to us.

13 Q. So because of that, in the documentation we can see telegrams?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

16 witness to look at Exhibit 257, please.

17 Q. I am going to ask you again something about the 7th Muslim

18 Brigade.

19 The 7th Muslim Brigade, in the Biljani region area, did not have a

20 single unit there in early 1993; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at

23 page 2 of the document.

24 Q. Witness, please, what is correct is that it had 50 --

25 approximately 50 members, which we see here, in different villages of the

Page 1753

1 Bila region, and we can see Kljaci, Maline, Visnjevo, Zolote, Radojcici

2 and so on and so forth?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Am I correct when I say that these are people who, before the

5 blockade in mid-April 1993, came for a holiday, came to their homes, and

6 there they were blockaded?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. They could not go back to their unit because the roads were

9 blocked; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And because of that, the document is titled "List of Members from

12 the 7th who are From the Bila Region," meaning who are originally from the

13 Bila region, because all these villages are from the Bila region; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this

16 document away, and I would now like the witness to look at D225. This is

17 a document of the 306th Brigade.

18 Q. Do you recognise Mr. Sipic's signature, if you can?

19 A. It's a bit hard, as far as signatures are concerned. It's been a

20 long time since then, but it probably is.

21 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you something about this fact that is

22 mentioned here. It's a short document. It states:

23 "I order a part of the troops currently stationed in the Kljaci

24 village, who are members of the 7th Muslim Brigade, shall be attached to

25 the unit of Kljaci village."

Page 1754

1 And if you could help us in relation to this, please. Is it

2 correct that these are the people from the 7th Muslim who happened to be

3 blocked in the village of Kljaci?

4 A. Yes. And if I can just comment, you can see in this document that

5 the 306th was not functioning as an establishment unit in this period

6 because it was being added on to the unit in the Kljaci village.

7 Q. Thank you. You are trying to say that these are still village

8 units?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you this: You can see that

11 the commander ordered that these people who remained in the Kljaci village

12 be reattached?

13 A. Well, he wanted to use the weapons, actually, because at the time

14 the 306th didn't have any weapons.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you very much.

16 Your Honours, can this document please be given an exhibit number.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 268.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please look at

22 Exhibit 134. Exhibit 134.

23 Q. Witness, do you agree that this document talks about the lines of

24 defence of the 306th Brigade? I would just ask you to look at the axis

25 line of defence under number 5, Simulje, Probijeno Brdo, Ostrilo, and at

Page 1755

1 the end of the document it is stated the 1st mountain Battalion, the size

2 of one mountain company, and reinforced by the 7th Brigade platoon. When

3 we're talking about these units, are these the same people from the list

4 about whom you said that they happened to be at their homes at that time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please, I would like to draw your attention just to remember the

7 Simulje, Probijeno Brdo, Ostrilo, because in a minute after this I'm going

8 to ask you something in connection with another document.

9 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number? Oh,

10 actually, it's already an exhibit. I apologise.

11 Could the witness now look at another exhibit, Exhibit 90, unless

12 Your Honours have questions.

13 MR. NEUNER: Could I just ask my learned colleague to state the

14 exhibit number of this last exhibit for the record, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's Exhibit 134.

16 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 134.

18 Q. So you did pay attention to this axis. Now we're looking at

19 document 90.

20 Your Honours, I'm not going to take too long with this document.

21 Witness, please, can you look at this official note on the death

22 of Sakib Brkic, and the date is the 28th of June. I think you signed this

23 document?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it the 28th of June or the 28th of May?

Page 1756

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, it's May.

2 I made a mistake. It's the 28th of May, 1993.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So you wrote this document, and I conclude that you are well

6 familiar with this event. And I would just like to draw your attention to

7 this part which contains the date, the 25th of May, 1993. It's in the

8 middle of the document, it states:

9 "On the 25th of May, 1993, a group of Mujahedin who are not under

10 the control of our brigade and are billeted in Mehuric, in the area of

11 responsibility of our brigade, without asking for permission and without

12 having informed anyone, reconnoitered the Probijeno Brdo sector (elevation

13 1009)."

14 Witness, you had information about this event. It's correct,

15 isn't it, that the Mujahedin did not ask permission from you to

16 reconnoiter your terrain?

17 A. Yes, they did not ask it.

18 Q. And they didn't inform you about that, either, did they?

19 A. No, they did not.

20 Q. In the previous document I asked you to look at, the line of

21 Defence, Simulje, Probijeno Brdo, Ostrilo, do you agree with me that this

22 event actually happened specifically in that area, the Probijeno Brdo

23 area, elevation K1009?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I would like to ask you, who is Akif Brkic? Who is

Page 1757

1 Sakib Brkic, son of Akif; did you know him well?

2 A. I'm going to be very clear here, this is the son of my aunt. He

3 was underaged.

4 Q. Was he a member of your brigade or not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Yes?

7 A. He was under age. Our brigade did not accept youths under-aged.

8 He was with Ramo Durmis, in his unit, I think.

9 Q. So he had joined the Mujahedin; am I correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be put away

12 now.

13 And, Your Honours, a break. I apologise, I apologise. I didn't

14 notice that it was already past that time.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document may be removed,

16 and we'll have a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

17 Court adjourned.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.:47 p.m.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, we were talking about the 7th Muslim when we stopped, and

23 I would like to go back to your brigade now.

24 Did a single member of your -- was a single member of your unit an

25 Arab?

Page 1758

1 A. No.

2 Q. Or a Turk, a foreigner?

3 A. No.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Your Honours, could the witness now look at document D232.

6 Q. Witness, can you please look at the document? It's a document of

7 the Command of the 3rd Corps of the 28th of August, 1993, order for the

8 re-subordination of units, and the order states that - this is in

9 paragraph 1:

10 "A unit of the independent detachment, El Mujahedin, and its

11 entire personnel and materiel and equipment, shall be re-subordinated to

12 the 306th Mountain Brigade in order to perform planned combat actions."

13 It says:

14 "The Commander of the 306th and the Commander of the El Mujahed

15 Unit are responsible for jointly preparing the combat actions."

16 And can you please look at this remark written by hand: "Not

17 implemented"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it's signed by Enver Hadzihasanovic. You can see that the

20 re-subordination of El Mujahedin to your unit was ordered. Did this ever

21 actually happen?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you have information if you ever --

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me for interrupting, but do we know why it

25 was not implemented? Does the witness know?

Page 1759

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely my next question.

2 Q. Witness, do you know why this was not implemented?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Very well. Did you ever, since you were not a member of the

5 Command on the 28th of August, 1993, so did your Command, together with

6 the El Mujahed Command, ever set out for jointly planning and preparing

7 combat actions?

8 A. As far as I know, they never did, no.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,

11 please?

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

13 Witness, it is said here that the El Mujahedin Detachment must be

14 re-subordinated, if I understand properly, re-subordinated to the 306th

15 Brigade. Does this mean that it had been subordinated to it before and

16 then the 306th Brigade lost control of the said detachment?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The El Mujahed Detachment was never

18 re-subordinated to the 306th, and the 306th unit never had any control

19 over it.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I understand that it was not

21 re-subordinated, but I wonder, before that was it ever subordinated to it?

22 Is that the reason why there is a mention here made of re-subordination,

23 that it could be put again under the control of the brigade?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was never

25 re-subordinated to the 306th. It's possible that we sometimes jointly

Page 1760

1 acted in combat actions after the 8th of June, but the El Mujahed Unit was

2 never under the command of the 306th.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, that is understood. The question is not

4 whether it was ever re-subordinated. The question is: Was it ever

5 subordinated? You see, the word "re" in front of the word "subordinate"

6 means "again," so was it ever subordinated in the first place? That's the

7 question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are absolutely certain of that, or do you not

10 know?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I am certain.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this has nothing to do

14 with the witness, but this question is something that I put earlier as a

15 question of interpretation. So is the real word -- in our language, the

16 word "pret pojinjave" [phoen], I'm not sure if that -- the correct

17 translation is "re-subordination" in English, and perhaps this is

18 something that we would need to consult experts on. I'm not sure that the

19 two words mean the same thing. We don't have the word "subordinate,"

20 "Pojinjave." In our language, we only have the word "re-subordinate,"

21 "pret pojinjave" in our language in the military sense.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That may be so, but unfortunately we now go by the

23 English language which is the official language here. And we can only

24 interpret it, and we'll have to get interpreters to help us. But thank

25 you so much. We've asked the question, and we've got the answer.

Page 1761

1 May the document please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 269.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, testifying about the Mujahedin, you said that until the

7 spring of 1993, they were busy with humanitarian work. Would you agree

8 that in that way, they received a lot of support among the people?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. They also secured the support of certain imams; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Other imams, Muslim priests, rejected them because of the Vahabi

13 stream or direction that they spread; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that is why --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand Ms. Vidovic's

17 question. Can she repeat it, please?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you are being asked to repeat your

19 question because the interpreter didn't hear you. You said "... and that

20 is why," and you didn't finish.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And that is why there was tension in certain Muslim villages,

23 divisions and tensions in certain Muslim villages; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your testimony, you said -- or rather, excuse me. You recall

Page 1762

1 giving a statement to the Prosecutor on the 29th of July, 2007?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In paragraph 44 of the statement, you said with them, speaking

4 about the Mujahedin, you could not enter into a conflict with them because

5 that would constitute a third front?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You already had two fronts, one in relation to the Serbian forces

8 and the other one in relation to the Croatian Defence Council?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You would agree, then, that the third front would not only be just

11 with the Mujahedin but with their numerous supporters in that region,

12 primarily the local imams and their followers; am I correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that would then be a very difficult situation for the Muslims,

15 would it not, fighting against two external enemies and one internal enemy

16 in Central Bosnia; am I correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You, in the 306th Brigade, were aware of that, were you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the 3rd Corps was aware of that; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The group in Mehuric was not the only group of Mujahedin in that

23 area; am I not right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During 1993, Abu Hamza operated there, and you knew that he was

Page 1763

1 out of the control of the group in Mehurici; am I right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He operated around Guca Gora?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You testified that while you were on the Territorial Defence

6 Staff, the Mujahedin shared the same building with that staff; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please, please, do you agree that after the 306th Brigade was

10 established and after it got into that building, the Mujahedin left the

11 building immediately?

12 A. Yes, the Mujahedin, and I think that the 1st Battalion was there,

13 the 306th. They were not in the same building, but the Mujahedin just

14 kept one room upstairs on the second floor, if I remember well.

15 Q. Did they stay there or did they keep some things there?

16 A. They just kept some of their things there. They moved to

17 Savici Kuce.

18 Q. Please, the Territorial Defence Staff did not secure these

19 premises for the Mujahedin, did not make them available to them. You were

20 involved in security work yourself, were you not?

21 A. Yes, and we did not do that.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the witness now

23 look at Document -- Exhibit 136 shown to him by the Prosecutor. That's

24 the document.

25 Q. I would just like to remind you of this. On the 13th of May,

Page 1764

1 1993, you wrote that Ramo Durmis and Sljivo Malik are with the Mujahedin?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Am I right if I say that they were then members of the local

6 Mujahedin, not the 7th Muslim Brigade in any way on this day, the 13th of

7 May, 1993?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And now, please, I would just like you to have a

10 look -- I think it's the very end of this document. Yes, it's the end of

11 the document, the last section. It says here -- just wait for a moment

12 for the English version -- in the English language, please. This section

13 is on the previous page, and it ends here, so the Trial Chamber should be

14 able to see this.

15 So you said here people who have already shown themselves to be

16 materialists, who watch out for their own interests alone, are also

17 involved in these activities. One of them - could you please continue -

18 is Mr. Zihnija Aganovic, president of the Travnik district, who is dishing

19 all this up behind the scenes."

20 Please, may I just remind you of the following? This is a

21 document in which you describe talks of the Mujahedin on the establishment

22 of -- well, when they're telling you that the 8th Muslim Brigade was being

23 established. Please, on the basis of this part of your document, you're

24 the author of this document; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1765

1 Q. As for this part of the document, I conclude that you did know

2 that behind the Mujahedin and the establishment of the 8th Muslim Brigade

3 is the President of the War Presidency of the Travnik District,

4 Mr. Zihnija Aganovic; did I correctly understand this part of your

5 document?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Your Honours, this document can be removed now.

9 Q. Now, you knew what the structure was. Do you agree that there

10 were -- War Presidency was not part of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina but

11 that it was a civilian organ?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's questions, you said that you had

14 problems in the 306th Brigade because your soldiers went to the Mujahedin

15 unit, and you said that you fought against that. Was it possible for you

16 to go in there and to look -- enter their camp, that is, and to look for

17 members of your brigade, if any of them went over to them?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Nevertheless, you brought criminal charges against those who left

20 your unit and joined the Mujahedin; am I not right?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like the

23 witness to have another look at 259, Exhibit 259, the document of the

24 306th Brigade, dated the 24th of July, 1993, and addressed as an answer to

25 the District Military Prosecutor's office. You confirmed, in response to

Page 1766

1 the prosecutor's question, that you signed it. That's the protest to the

2 Prosecutor's office because of inaccuracies in view of the number of

3 criminal reports filed. And while you testified, you explained to us that

4 the Prosecutor's Office in this case -- well, actually, could we just have

5 the document lifted so that the names can be seen? Thank you. Please.

6 Well, in the English language, too, please.

7 Q. You said to us that you protested because it was stated that you

8 had sent one, whereas you sent eleven criminal reports. Please, it is

9 correct, isn't it, that this is not the only such case, that actually

10 several times it happened to you, that quite simply your criminal reports

11 were not even recorded?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Even meetings were held in respect of that, for example, by the

14 District Prosecutor's Office; am I right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You complained about such behaviour of the Prosecutor's Office?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it correct that it was only the District Prosecutor's Office

19 that was completely disabled, they just had one prosecutor and one deputy

20 during 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Also, I want to ask you the following, please: It's correct, is

23 it not, that sometimes quite simply criminal reports were returned to you,

24 and what was stated was: "Write better ones, these are unprofessional"?

25 A. It happened several times, they sought additional information.

Page 1767

1 Q. Quite simply, they did not register these reports?

2 A. On the basis of this protest that we lodged, it seemed to me that

3 they did not record our criminal reports at all.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Your Honours, this document can be removed.

6 Q. Now -- well, actually, when you made a statement to the Office of

7 the Prosecutor, the one that I referred to a few moments ago, you said

8 that after what happened in Miletici, that is to say, after that, you had

9 clear instructions to follow and record the activity of the Mujahedin and

10 to report to the Command about that; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that is, indeed, what you did?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now I would just like to ask you about some persons. Please, do

15 you know Isak Aganovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether this is a member of

18 your brigade and, generally speaking, what you know about him in 1993?

19 A. I think that straightaway he went to the unit of Mujahed. I mean,

20 well, I think he even left the detachment.

21 Q. Just tell us, what is this -- when you say "straightaway," the

22 beginning of what?

23 A. The end of 1992, beginning of 1993, perhaps.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know Ziknad Sajdic [phoen]?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1768

1 Q. I'm going to put the same question in relation to him. Was he a

2 member of your brigade, and if so, until when?

3 A. He left, too, among the first soldiers who went to El Mujahed.

4 Q. Can you tell us approximately when this was? Was it winter,

5 spring -- or, rather, the spring of 1993?

6 A. Possibly April 1993, as far as I can remember.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you whether you can

8 Safet Dautovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was he a member of your brigade?

11 A. From the beginning until the end, I think he was a member of our

12 brigade.

13 Q. A member of the 306th Brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. From the beginning until the end of the war, you mean?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know a person nicknamed Biban?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was this? Tell us.

20 A. Hodzic Habib, nicknamed Biban, he was a member of the MUP, of the

21 civilian police.

22 Q. Thank you. Now I am going to ask you the following, briefly: You

23 testified about what you knew about what happened in Maline, and you said

24 that you entrusted Hasan Zukanovic with the investigation because he was

25 an experienced pre-war policeman. Did I understand you well?

Page 1769

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said that he took statements from eyewitnesses; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As for the Command of the 3rd Corps, you informed them

5 straightaway, you personally, that there are some indications concerning

6 the execution of about 20 persons?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You sent a telegram about that?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, D138 is my reference

11 here. Rather, Exhibit 138. Because the witness accepts this, let us not

12 waste time over this, unless the Honourable Trial Chamber wants to see

13 this document. Exhibit 138. It's not indispensable. That is what I am

14 referring to.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that it was marked for identification,

16 Madam. Maybe you could just show it to him, then we can tender it in

17 evidence.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, all right, yes. MFI 138.

19 I do apologise. 138. Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, please look at this document. Do you recognise this

21 document?

22 A. Yes. I drafted this about the execution of 20 civilians.

23 Q. Do you agree that at the end of the document, it says

24 investigation is pending and upon the completion of the investigation you

25 will be informed on time?

Page 1770

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is this Gabela, what does is it, "Gabela 802," mean?

3 A. I really cannot remember now, I cannot remember. I've been

4 thinking about it all the time. Its been a long time.

5 Q. All right. Do you agree that you informed the 3rd Corps, through

6 this telegram, about the investigation that you were carrying out?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

9 now please be admitted into evidence? Could it please be assigned a

10 number?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and I

12 believe it will now be given Exhibit number 138.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour, it will be Exhibit

15 number 138.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to see

18 Exhibit 228. For the transcript, this is a document of the Command of the

19 3rd Corps, dated the 20th of June, 1993.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're left with nine minutes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honours, to

22 the best of my ability.

23 Q. Witness, please look at the second sentence straightaway, because

24 I have very little time. You will see that it's a document of the

25 3rd Corps, and you see the name of Commander Enver Hadzihasanovic?

Page 1771

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The second sentence says:

3 "An investigation into the events in the village of Maline has

4 been launched, and I hope that the competent organs will be rigorous,

5 which will be my request."

6 I just have a question for you here. Witness, please, is it your

7 understanding that the Commander of the 3rd Corps received information

8 from you that an investigation was being carried out?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that this document states this unequivocally?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Please answer the following: In the same way you said

13 that the Mujahedin had committed this, not the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

14 am I right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I would just like to remind you of that document. The

17 Prosecutor showed it to you of Mr. Osman Fusko. This was a member of your

18 organ; isn't that right?

19 A. Desk officer of the Military Security Service.

20 Q. All right. I don't want us to waste any time. You remember --

21 you've seen it; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please, did you give Mr. Fusko instructions to write that document

24 in the way in which it was written?

25 A. No.

Page 1772

1 Q. You said to us that you couldn't have -- or, rather, that you

2 weren't there at all; right?

3 A. Most probably, I said -- well, most probably, I was not there, but

4 I first saw this document at the trial in 2005.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Your Honours, in relation to this, I would like the witness to

7 have a look at Exhibit 89, Exhibit 89, very briefly.

8 Can we scroll the document down so that we can see?

9 Q. You said that you were at the Forward Command Post. Can you

10 please look at this part of the document? This is a document of the

11 306th Brigade which says in the Parica Greda region, the Command for this

12 axis was deployed comprising officers of the brigade, operatives persons,

13 moralist, and communications person.

14 Is this the Forward Command Post that you were talking about?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. After the commander, Mr. Sipic, was replaced, you were

17 very frequently at that Forward Command Post; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was it possible for you to issue instructions from there?

20 A. No, because of the communications. We used radio relay

21 communications from up there. The telephone and the other system like

22 that is something that I would never use to give information of this kind.

23 Q. And I just have one more question on this. It's correct, isn't

24 it, that in June, July, and August of 1993, before you left to Parica

25 Greda, the Deputy of the 3rd Corps, Dzemal Merdan, came to the broader

Page 1773

1 area of there; am I correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He went there with representatives of the International Community

4 and Father Stipan Radic?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Your Honours, I'm going to -- well, maybe this document can be put

8 away. I just have a question for the witness in relation to Exhibit 263.

9 And just if the witness can briefly look at the document.

10 All right. Can the witness look at the very last excerpt from the

11 document, the one that the Prosecutor questioned him about?

12 Q. Do you agree that it is at Hrasce, elevation 688?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You confirm that it was elevation 688?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can put this document away,

17 and maybe the document -- the witness can look at Exhibit 182. This is a

18 document or exhibit under seal, and then if we can, in a minute, finish.

19 This is Exhibit 172 under seal.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want us to move into private session?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please move into private session.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told it's not under seal.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1774

1 If the witness can briefly look at this document.

2 Your Honours, this is not the document. 172.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You asked for 182. We have given you 182. Do you

4 want 172?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 172, please. I apologise.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we move into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1775

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

6 MR. NEUNER: If, please, Exhibit 139 could be shown to this

7 witness. It's an exhibit marked for identification, and I'm referring to

8 page 81 of today's transcript. My learned colleague, just a few minutes

9 ago, has mentioned a visit of (redacted)

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I believe that's under seal, Mr. Neuner.

11 MR. NEUNER: Is that under seal? Sorry, then we would need to go

12 into private session. I apologise.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1776











11 Page 1776 redacted. Private session















Page 1777

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Yes, Mr. Neuner.


25 Q. Who, specifically, in this 3rd Corps security section did you deal

Page 1778

1 with about the Mujahedin?

2 A. We would hand that in -- in writing, the information, what we had,

3 what we could get, but it was very difficult to find anything out from

4 them. Right at the outset, I said that these were people who were

5 constantly on the move, you know. You could not get their names or

6 passports.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, please listen to the question. The

8 question is: To who in this 3rd Corps security section did you deal with

9 about the Mujahedin? As you report up the ladder of command, who --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My superior, the security chief,

11 Dugalic.


13 Q. Was there also somebody in counter-intelligence section you were

14 dealing with in the 3rd Corps?

15 A. I cannot remember, but I think it was Osman Vlajicic for a while.

16 But I didn't discuss this topic with him. We talked about other things,

17 mostly the information I had about the Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor,

18 relating to counter-intelligent affairs.

19 MR. NEUNER: No further questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Judge.

22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I do have a question.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: In what capacity did the 3rd Corps deal with the

25 El Mujahedin Detachment. It's not very clear to me. Could you please

Page 1779

1 shed some light on this? As far as you know, what is the capacity?

2 A. It's not what they were interested in, the superior military

3 security organ, names of persons that we could get, where they were going,

4 and the entire incidents that they created for us was something that we

5 reported on about in official notes, which we then submitted.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to point out something

7 about the translation. It's a matter of translation, Your Honours.

8 Something that the witness did not say has been recorded. He said on page

9 87, line 21, "That's what they were interested in." Page 87. At least

10 that's what I have on the screen. And the question, line 21 --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Line 21 is where you are speaking, Madam Vidovic.

12 I'm not quite sure what -- okay, "It's not what they were interested in,"

13 right? That's line --

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. Actually, the witness said

15 the opposite, so I would like to clarify that with the witness. He said,

16 "That's what they were interested in." Perhaps that needs to be clarified

17 with the witness. Otherwise, it's very unclear.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but do you understand, Madam Vidovic, you

19 know, I did say this to you a couple of days ago, that when the Bench is

20 asking questions and there are mistakes, let the Bench ask questions and

21 finish. When they're finished, you can clear the problem.

22 I'm not sure now where we are at this stage. The Judge is in the

23 middle of asking questions. You've risen up while the witness was

24 talking. Can you wait until the Judge is over with with their questions,

25 and then you can clear this point up.

Page 1780

1 Judge.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I might repeat the question. The

3 only thing I wanted to know is some clarification.

4 What were the questions with which your superiors in the 3rd Corps

5 would deal with with regard to El Mujahedin Detachment? You may have said

6 so already, but I would like to have some further clarifications in this

7 respect.

8 A. I said that they wanted their personal data, who they were, what

9 they were, where did they come from, what they were doing, what were they

10 dealing with, their movements, where they were going, the normal things

11 that we could monitor. What we could monitor, we would send information

12 on, and what we couldn't, we couldn't. They were constantly moving

13 around.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have another question.

15 If they were not soldiers, this was not within their jurisdiction

16 of the civilian police, how was -- how were the powers distributed in

17 matters of security, of state security, between the civilian police and

18 the military police?

19 A. In the depth of the territory, the military police did not have

20 any authority other than over members of the 306th Brigade. Our territory

21 was where our responsibility lay, in that outside of our area of

22 responsibility it was the civilian police who were in charge.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness.

24 Sorry, Madam Vidovic, can you clarify that point?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise because

Page 1781

1 when the transcript is wrong, then I'm afraid that then the Trial Chamber

2 also will be misled.

3 The witness said, and this is page 89, lines 7 to 11, he said

4 what -- he didn't say, "What was outside of our area of responsibility."

5 He mentioned the territory in the depth, and that's quite different.

6 "In the depth," it means towards the interior and not like this outside of

7 the territory.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: So what should, in your view, be the correct

9 interpretation of what the witness said? Maybe we should ask the witness

10 again.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that would be best, to ask

12 the witness again, better than for me to interpret.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you, Madam Vidovic, because you know

14 what you need to have recorded. Ask him.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Witness, please, you said that the jurisdiction of the civilian

17 police was in the depth of the territory; is that correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what did you mean by that expression?

20 A. Well, the area of responsibility was on the defence line of our

21 brigade. In the depth within, we just had jurisdiction over members of

22 the 306th Mountain Brigade; that is to say that we had no authority over

23 Mujahed, or the civilian population, or anyone else.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Witness, this begs the question of whether you did

25 not have jurisdiction over war crimes committed within the area of

Page 1782

1 responsibility of your brigade. I would imagine that the military police

2 would have jurisdiction over all -- [overlapping speakers]

3 A. Yes, if we're talking about members of the 306th Mountain Brigade.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Whereas war crimes committed by the opposing

5 party, the other army, or a third army, would not fall under the

6 jurisdiction of the military police; is that what you are saying?

7 A. My brigade, the 306th, had jurisdiction over members of the 306th.

8 If we were talking about civilians, then it was the civilian police,

9 because a unit like El Mujahed, I told you, we had no jurisdiction over

10 them.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand your perception to be that, in

12 physical terms, you couldn't enter the premises of their camp, so you had

13 no factual possibility of going in and actually asking questions to anyone

14 inside the Mujahedin camp in Mehurici. Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: But you will also appreciate that there is a legal

17 question here, because we have seen documents during your testimony which

18 seem to suggest that, from a legal point of view, the El Mujahedin

19 Detachment should be subordinated under the 3rd Corps, so I want to

20 clarify whether your statement, that you had no jurisdiction over crimes

21 possibly committed by the Mujahedin, whether that statement relates to the

22 fact that you could not enter the premises of their camp and could not

23 conduct your investigations inside the Mujahedin camp, and the factual

24 impossibility alone.

25 A. We did not have any jurisdiction over them, as I said, and thereby

Page 1783

1 we could not enter. I did not see at that point in time any unit,

2 organisation, military, police, civilian, any organisation that could

3 enter their camp in order to carry out an investigation.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. But, Witness, please help me here. My

5 question is whether your statement, that you had no jurisdiction, is based

6 exclusively on the fact that you simply couldn't enter the premises.

7 A. We had no jurisdiction over them and we couldn't enter, either.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you are now saying that it was not only the

9 factual impossibility of going inside the Mujahedin camp that prevented

10 you from carrying out the investigation; it was also a legal assertion

11 that the members of the Mujahedin Detachment were, legally speaking,

12 outside the jurisdiction of the military police; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, because when the crime was committed, I said already that

14 they were not in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at all, and I don't think

15 that there were any possibilities that we had or we did not have any

16 jurisdiction over them.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand, but who told you that you had no

18 legal jurisdiction? I'm asking because we see -- or we have seen here

19 during your testimony documents from that very same period of time,

20 discussing exactly the issue of how to subordinate the Mujahedin

21 Detachment under the legal responsibility of the 3rd Corps, so who told

22 you that you had no legal jurisdiction?

23 A. I consulted my desk officer, Jusic, and everything that he said to

24 me, and other persons who were relevant in terms of telling me. Well, we

25 did not have any jurisdiction over the members of the El Mujahed, and also

Page 1784

1 other members of the army who were from other units. We would just inform

2 their superior commands if they had caused an incident or had done

3 something.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: But yet you were the one who initiated the

5 investigation in the first place, as I recall.

6 A. Yes, but at the moment when I realised that no members of the

7 306th Brigade had taken part in that, my hands were tied. There was no

8 way in which I could have entered the camp of the El Mujahed Unit and

9 carried out investigations there.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, I understand that very well. Even if you had

11 tried, you would be expelled or you would not be allowed entrance, so from

12 a physical point of view, it was impossible.

13 Now, let me attack this same issue from another angle. If crimes

14 possibly committed by the Mujahedin were outside, legally speaking,

15 outside your jurisdiction, then I assume it would fall under the

16 jurisdiction of the civilian police, would it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: And you would then -- or I'm asking you: Did you

19 then or did anyone in the 306th Brigade have any contact with the civilian

20 police in the area in order to see that an investigation was carried out?

21 A. The civilian police was aware of this. I remember some details

22 and conversations. I cannot confirm exactly now, but I think that they

23 had filed some criminal reports against unknown persons.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you have the feeling or the impression that

25 the investigation was being stopped?

Page 1785

1 A. As I've said, at the moment when we obtained this information, who

2 the perpetrators were, we really did not have jurisdiction to investigate

3 any further. We informed the superior command, and as far as we were

4 concerned that was the end of that.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 I don't quite remember, but when you went to the camp, the

8 Mujahedin camp, and when you could not enter the camp, I do remember

9 correctly, don't I?

10 And when did you go to the Mujahedin camp, why did you go to the

11 Mujahedin camp, and why did you try to enter the camp if you had no

12 responsibility over whatever they did?

13 A. I was asked by the commander for us to go together and to talk to

14 them so that if things like the kind of things that happened -- happening,

15 would not happen again. But I've already said we were up against a rock.

16 They wouldn't even let us go in. And I told you the rest of the story.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, am I right to say that according to you, these

19 people who were killed in Maline were kidnapped from the soldiers of the

20 Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina by foreigners?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So these were people who were found in Maline, and

23 they were in a group of 300 people who had been taken to Mehurici for

24 their own protection?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1786

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina had the responsibility to look after the safety and security

3 of these people, all of them, up until they get to their safe place in

4 Mehurici?

5 A. Yes, but there weren't enough people. Combat operations were

6 going on. As far as I can remember, five military policemen were

7 escorting that column.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, I hear that. I'm asking you about the legal

9 responsibility of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They had the legal

10 responsibility to look for -- to secure the safety up until they get to

11 the place of safety in Mehurici?

12 A. The army did its best to secure the safety of their trip, but what

13 happened happened and they were attacked, these people.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Will you please listen to my questions. I'm

15 not asking you of what the army did, physically. I'm asking you of the

16 legal responsibility of the army, and I repeat myself. The army that was

17 taking these people to Mehurici had the legal responsibility to ensure

18 their safety and security until they got to a safe place in Mehurici; am I

19 right.

20 A. You are right, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Now, if --

23 A. You're welcome.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- if anybody then takes these people from the army,

25 that does not relieve the army of their legal responsibility to see to the

Page 1787

1 security of these people; is that correct? That duty doesn't fall away

2 simply because the army isn't capable physically to do the job?

3 A. Yes, but the army was doing its best to --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, therefore, when somebody has taken these

5 people and commits crime upon these people, the army is still legally

6 obliged to pursue that person, whoever it is?

7 A. Well, I'm not a lawyer by training. I'm saying --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just asking you. If somebody takes from you

9 your property, sir, you have the right to pursue this person until you get

10 your property back, and if he refuses, you have the right to prosecute

11 this person.

12 A. Yes, but again I repeat that, Your Honour --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, thank you. If I need an explanation,

14 I'll ask you to explain.

15 Now, in this instance, these people who actually kidnapped these

16 civilians or these prisoners of war, or whatever they are, had actually

17 been fighting side by side with the army, am I right, the Army of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina?

19 A. In that period, no.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm talking of on that day in particular.

21 A. As far as I know, they were not fighting us. They ran out of the

22 forest and abducted these people.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If they were not fighting you, who were they

24 fighting?

25 A. They were not fighting us, but they were not acting in concert

Page 1788

1 with --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've told us that. My question is simple. Who

3 were they fighting?

4 A. Well, that day our army that was working on the deblockade of

5 Velika Bukovica did not plan on the El Mujahed Unit, did not cooperate

6 with it, as far as I know, as far as I have been informed, but they were

7 nearby. They were near that battlefield, and they could hear what was

8 going on.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Delalic, is my question so difficult? My

10 question is very simple. Who were they fighting?

11 A. Well, you're putting me in an embarrassing situation. I'm trying

12 to explain that they did not cooperate, they did not act in concert with

13 us. Those who fight with us, who act in concert with us, do not abduct

14 people from us.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now my question -- what is so embarrassing about my

16 question? I'm asking a very simple question. Who were these people who

17 kidnapped these people fighting? Who were they fighting? What's so

18 embarrassing about that question?

19 A. The question is unclear to me for the following reason: They did

20 not act in concert with us at that moment.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the question I'm asking you, sir. I'm

22 asking you a very simple -- don't complicate my question. My question

23 is: Who were they fighting against? Don't make it any more complicated

24 than it is.

25 A. Well, I'm not complicating things. They were fighting against the

Page 1789

1 Serb-Montenegrin aggressor and the HVO, but they were not acting in

2 concert with us.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, if they are not acting in concert with you,

4 you then have the duty, as the Bosnian Army, to protect those in your

5 custody against them, don't you?

6 A. We did protect them, as far as I know, and if we didn't manage to

7 protect them, then --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And to the extent that you failed to protect these,

9 you bear the legal responsibility, don't you?

10 A. From what I said, and I think I said at the beginning, that I was

11 at the Forward Command Post in Rudnik under a blockade for 20 days, and I

12 couldn't influence the unit that was going to take these people --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you that, sir. My questions have

14 always been directed against the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm

15 saying to the extent that people kidnapped captives from the Army of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, to that extent the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

17 bears the legal responsibility to make sure that those people are safe,

18 and if they are not, to pursue the abductors.

19 A. I entirely agree with you, Your Honours, but --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

21 That ends my questions. We will resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the

22 morning in Courtroom II.

23 You will come back to court at 9.00 tomorrow morning in Courtroom

24 II, sir. Okay?

25 Court adjourned.

Page 1790

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

3 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.