1                           Saturday, 8 September 2007

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody this morning.

 6     Mr. Registrar, can you call the case please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is

 8     case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             May we have the appearances this morning starting with the

11     Prosecution.

12             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

13     Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.  For the

14     Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon, assisted by our case manager

15     Alma Imamovic.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             For the Defence.

18             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation] ... criminal

19     defence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I didn't hear any interpretation.  On what

21     channel is the English channel?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, the interpreters apologise.

23     Maybe Ms. Vidovic can repeat the appearance.                            

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you please repeat the appearances,

25     Madam Vidovic.

 1             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

 2     morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

 3             I am Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas David Robson, defending

 4     General Delic, assisted by our legal assistants, Lejla Gluhic and Asja

 5     Zujo, and we have with us Nina Kisic from the Criminal Defence Section of

 6     the Bosnia and Herzegovina State Court.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, madam.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           WITNESS:  ALI AHMAD ALI HAMAD [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we proceed, Mr. Hamad, may I just remind

12     you that before you started your testimony yesterday you made a

13     declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

14     truth.  You are reminded that you are still bound by that declaration

15     today.  Do you understand me?  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:  [Continued]

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  I hope that you rested

21     well and that we can continue today.

22        A.   Thank you.  Good morning.

23        Q.   Yesterday, we stopped at some questions that had to do with

24     objectives of al-Qaeda in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I would like to put

25     some questions to you about that.
 1             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, can the witness look

 2     at D319.

 3        Q.   And, Witness, before you look at this document, for the

 4     transcript I would like to say that it's an interview in the German daily

 5     Spiegle, Spiegle Online.  Witness, can you please look at the interview.

 6     Do you recall giving this interview?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, I would like

 9     to explain that the original of the interview is in the German language,

10     and the Defence has provided translations into English and Bosnian.

11        Q.   Witness, I would like to pay attention to the Bosnian version.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did the Defence file the original in the German

13     language?  Thank you very --

14             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Witness, I would like to ask you to look at the first page of the

16     Bosnian version, the question before last.  And in the English version

17     it's at the end of the first page and the beginning of the second page.

18             Witness, the question before last in the Spiegle Online interview

19     you were asked about the al-Qaeda mission in the Bosnian war, and you

20     replied:  "Al-Qaeda wasn't interested in helping the Bosnian Muslims.

21     They were interested in creating a base that would allow them to increase

22     their area of operations, much like the USA with their bases but across

23     the globe.  Some leaders of the Western world noticed that but did not do

24     anything."

25             In relation to this, Witness, I want to ask you, did I understand

 1     properly that you felt that al-Qaeda in Bosnia was not interested in

 2     Muslims but in creating a base from which they could operate within

 3     Europe; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   Witness, now I would like to discuss with you your testimony

 6     where you describe your arrival in Bosnia.

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And before that, Your Honours, I

 8     would just like to ask that this interview from Spiegle be given an

 9     exhibit number.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interview from Spiegle is given -- is admitted

11     into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 326.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   I'm going to go back to that part of your testimony where you

16     described your arrival in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  You said that the

17     members of al-Qaeda gave you precise instructions in Bahrain how to come

18     and who to report to.  Am I correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And the instructions you received from Abu Helad [phoen], who was

21     a member of al-Qaeda; is that correct?

22        A.   That was the second set of instructions.  First I received the

23     instructions from Prince Hamad and then from Abu Helad.

24        Q.   Thank you for that additional explanation.  Now I would like you

25     to look at Exhibit D320 -- or document 320.  You have it in front of you.

 1     These are excerpts from your book, marked about numbers, and I would

 2     always like you to pay attention, please, Witness, to the high numbers,

 3     and this one is the number 06050396 and 0397.  This is the second page.

 4             Please, can you look at this first page and look at line 7.

 5             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English, Your Honours, it's

 6     also on the first page, beginning with line 6 and the words:  "This is

 7     the number of the Sudanese who lives in Split."

 8        Q.   Witness, I believe that you've had the opportunity to read it.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   It states here:  "He gave me that piece of paper and said, 'This

11     is the number of a Sudanese who lives in Split.  When you arrive in

12     Split, call him if you need help and you will be met by our people in a

13     town called Travnik.'"

14             Now, I would like you to look at the second page and then I will

15     put my questions to you.

16             On the second page can you please look at the sentence - it's

17     around the middle of the page - which begins with the words:  "They'll

18     take you to the Mujahedin."

19             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 2 in

20     English.  "They will take you to the Mujahedin," that part.

21        Q.   All right, Witness.  You've found it.  I'm going to read from it.

22     You wrote here:  "These men were members of a Travnik Muslim unit called

23     Muslimanske Snage, Muslim Forces.  They're good guys.  They love Islam,

24     and they pray.  When you arrive in the town where the headquarters of the

25     Muslim forces unit is, you will tell them not to send you to a village

 1     called Mehurici where the Mujahedin training camp is located, but tell

 2     them to send you immediately to a village called Karaula and specifically

 3     to a village called Gradina.  Our unit is billeted there."

 4             It's correct, isn't it, that here you are describing your

 5     conversation with Abu Helad.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you correctly describe what happened?

 8        A.   I described what I could remember, but most of my conversation

 9     with him is stated here in this excerpt.

10        Q.   All right.  So you clearly wrote here that the instructions

11     regarding the location of your unit in Central Bosnia was given to you by

12     him, Abu Helad; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Witness, in your testimony yesterday and answering to the

15     Prosecutor's questions you said that Brigadier Asim explained where the

16     locations of your units were.  You said that he told you that one was in

17     Mehurici and that the other was in Karaula.

18             I would like to ask you this:  Is it possible that because of the

19     time that has passed since then you forgot the fact that Abu Helad

20     actually explained that to you?

21        A.   I didn't forget that.  I was told this in Bahrain, and I briefly

22     said that everything was explained to me in Bahrain, where to go, who to

23     report to, but I didn't speak in detail.  My conversation with Abu Helad,

24     I said that Brigadier Asim clarified things and told me where the

25     Mujahedin camp was, where the front was, but this was his duty to explain

 1     that to me again.  And besides that, he wasn't aware that this was

 2     already told to me in Bahrain.

 3        Q.   But do you agree that the instructions on the location of the

 4     units you already received from Abu Helad in Bahrain?  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   You also received instructions to report to the Muslim forces; is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And this is what happened?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And they accepted you, they welcomed you; is that correct?

12        A.   [No interpretation].

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this number [as

15     interpreted] can be given an exhibit.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 327.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Testifying yesterday, Wahiuddin El Misri -- excuse me if I

22     mispronounce the words.

23        A.   All right.  All right.  No problem.

24        Q.   So Wahiuddin El Misri you described as the head of the Mujahedin

25     in Bosnia; is that correct?

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In your book you describe them as well-known al-Qaeda figures; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Witness, would it be fair to say that from your arrival in Bosnia

 6     and Herzegovina until you left to go to prison al-Qaeda actually decided

 7     your fate?  Would that be a fair conclusion?

 8        A.   My fate?

 9        Q.   Yes, your fate.

10        A.   I don't want to answer this because I'm not really quite clear

11     about what you are trying to ask me.

12        Q.   I will clarify my question.  Is it correct that al-Qaeda decided

13     about where you would go and decided that you would go to Bosnia, and

14     then decided which unit you would join in Bosnia and so on and so forth

15     until the point where you went to prison?  Do you understand me now?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  That is clear now.

17        Q.   Witness, can you now please look at document D322?

18             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, these are six

19     pages of the book.

20        Q.   Witness, you recognise your handwriting; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I would like to ask you to look at the page marked a with the

23     number 06050454.  Can you look at the part in the middle of the page

24     where your conversation with Wahiuddin El Misri is described.

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 1 of the

 1     translation into English, and that part is at the bottom of the page and

 2     begins with the words -- and the words of that line begin:  "Our unit in

 3     Bijelo Bucje has been left without suitable commanders."

 4        Q.   Witness, now I'm going to read the relevant section to you that I

 5     am interested in, and it states:  "Our unit in Bijelo Bucje has been left

 6     without suitable commanders since Abu Talha El Andalusi was killed.  I

 7     recently sent Abu El Ma'ali to lead the unit temporarily until you

 8     recover and get out of this clinic.  Today you will be sent back there to

 9     take over the leadership of the unit from him."

10             Would you agree that Wahiuddin El Misri actually appointed you as

11     the unit commander?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like you to look at page 0650574 of the

14     same document.  Can you look at the part beginning from line 6.  Look at

15     the part that begins from line 6 on that page.  Can you find it?

16        A.   Yes, I've found it.  I have it.

17        Q.    "Our unit in Bijelo Bucje is left without suitable --" I'm

18     sorry.  We finished with that.

19             I would like you to look at -- able I got a little bit of

20     confusion.  Can you please look at the page with the number 06050574.

21     And there is a part -- Abu El Haris from the beginning is mentioned.  He

22     addressed Wahiuddin with the following words.

23             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English it's

24     on page 2.

25        Q.    "What do you think about Abu El Hasan El Mekki.  Is he capable?"

 1     And Wahiuddin answered:  "I think that he could be."  And so on and so

 2     forth.  "And then after that Abu El Haris then said to me:  'Listen,

 3     Abu Ubeyda [as interpreted], you'll go back to Bijelo Bucje and hand over

 4     the post of unit commander to Abu El Hasan.  We'll inform him of this by

 5     Motorola.  You'll be his deputy, and you'll be in charge of planning and

 6     executing military operations, because Abu El Hasan doesn't have much

 7     experience in this field.  That's why you will always be by his side to

 8     assist him.'"

 9             And now I would like to ask you the following:  It's correct, is

10     it not, that Wahiuddin and Dr. Haris also decided that you would no

11     longer be the commander but the deputy?  Am I correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Will you now look at page 06050591.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it not so that they decided that he would be

15     deputy as a result of him protesting and refusing to take the position of

16     commander?  There is that portion mentioned before the part that you

17     read.  Is it not so?

18             What I'm trying to suggest is that --

19             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What I'm trying to suggest is that he made a

21     contribution towards that decision, and in fact that decision was in line

22     with his desires.  They wanted him to be commander, not deputy.

23             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we first used the

24     previous page at which by decision of Wahiuddin the witness was appointed

25     commander.  Then on the following page we see that the witness, by

 1     Wahiuddin's decision, was moved from that position to the position of

 2     deputy.  And this is a relevant fact for the Defence, that is, who is the

 3     decision-maker about this, that's all.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear that, and that is why I'm saying that in

 5     fact that decision was made as a result of considering his contribution.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept that.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have something to say, if I may.

 8     In this document that the Defence quoted from, that was the day when I

 9     was removed from duty.  So as to avoid any confusion, allow me to

10     explain.

11             From the beginning of my tour of duty in Bosnia, when I was in

12     Bijelo Bucje I was commander -- or, rather, deputy commander of the unit.

13     After the attack on Ilijas in 1992 in which Abu Talha was killed, the

14     commander of the unit, I became the commander by order of Wahiuddin.

15             As for the document in which I described my conversation with

16     Abu Haris, this happened almost five or six months later.

17             So they came to fetch me in Bijelo Bucje and they interviewed me.

18     They were not satisfied with my behaviour, and they came with intention

19     of removing me from duties.  They offered me to become deputy commander,

20     which I refused.  However, I was removed from duty.  Of I was not

21     commander or deputy commander then.

22             This can be clearly seen if you were to continue to read on from

23     this text.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 1        Q.   Witness, thank you for your additional explanations.  Look now at

 2     this section on the same page, 060505911, and the part under title

 3     "Al-Qaeda decided -- took a decision about my arrest."  Do you see that?

 4             And I will quote now.  I think you can find this easily in the

 5     English version where towards the top of the page we see that:  "Al-Qaeda

 6     has made the decision to arrest me," as he says.

 7             Allow me to quote this part of the text:  "In the meantime, my

 8     al-Qaeda cell made a decision in connection with my case, the decision

 9     that was painful for me, because the al-Qaeda cell ordered the Mujahedin

10     administration to arrest me."

11             And in this connection, Witness, I wish to ask you the following:

12     My understanding is that in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was an al-Qaeda

13     cell.  Am I right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you described that the decision was made by al-Qaeda with

16     regard to your case; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So the Mujahedin administration ordered your arrest; is that

19     right?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   They also decided that you should be arrested; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In this connection I wish you to look at page 06050599.  There is

24     a big title, "Military Court and 20-day Prison Sentence."

25             I ask you, Witness, to look at the text beneath this heading.

 1     You mention Emad [as interpreted] El Misri here.  You see that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   You described that in this case he played the role of a military

 4     judge.

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   On this basis my conclusion is that the Mujahedin had their own

 7     military court in Bosnia.  They formed a military court of their own.

 8        A.   Something that looked like a military court, but really one can't

 9     call it a military court.

10        Q.   Why?

11        A.   Because this happened in the Mujahedin camp before domestic and

12     foreign Mujahedins.  So this is my way of describing it.  Any author

13     describes things in his way, and that is how I described it here, as a

14     military court.

15        Q.   Let me rephrase that question.  Be that as it may, they decided

16     about offences or lack of discipline which the Mujahedin; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now will you look at the last page of this document, number

19     06050680.

20             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English this is page -- the last

21     page of this document, and the last two sentences on this page.  And due

22     to shortage of time I cannot discuss them with the witness, but they are

23     relevant.

24        Q.   Have you seen those two sentences?  You said that through an

25     acquaintance from Bahrain you received a message from al-Qaeda:  "From

 1     today on, you will be under Abu Zubeir in his unit where you will have

 2     absolutely no contact either with either Abu El Haris or with El Ketiba

 3     [phoen]."

 4             So will you please explain for Their Honours the following:  Am I

 5     right if I believe that El Ketiba is the Arab word for the El Mujahedin

 6     Detachment?  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Abu al Zubeir is quite a different Mujahedin unit in relation

 9     to El Ketiba or El Mujahedin.  Am I right?

10        A.   Yes.  But the same organisation formed El Ketiba and al Zubeir.

11        Q.   Thank you for the explanation, but my question is these are two

12     completely separate units.  Isn't that so?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Finally, I am right in concluding on the basis of

15     this section of the book that an al-Qaeda decided about your involvement

16     in the al Zubeir Detachment.  Am I right?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be

19     given an exhibit number and admitted into evidence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].  May it please be

21     given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 328.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Ms. -- Madam Vidovic.

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 1        Q.   Witness, reading through one of the documents a moment ago I

 2     noted that you describe the Mujahedin in Bosnia having something which

 3     you described as the administration.  Could you please explain to Their

 4     Honours what the administration in Bosnia is?

 5        A.   That is what many people in Bosnia call Shura.  That is the

 6     Mujahedin command which has its members, and they decide about all the

 7     needs of the Mujahedin in Bosnia.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I see.

 9        A.   That is what the people in Bosnia refer to as Shura.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.  Will you now look at document D323, please.

11             Again these are pages from your book.  Will you please look at

12     the page 06050462.  I'm interested in the text beneath a heading,

13     "Establishment of a Mujahedin Administration."  Will you please look at

14     it.  Just this small section, and then I have a question for you.

15             Is it true that Wahiuddin El Misri organised in Mehurici what you

16     describe as a new Mujahedin administration which remained unchanged until

17     the end of the war?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Witness, could you please assist us.  To the best of your

20     recollection, when did this occur?  Do you remember?

21        A.   I don't remember.  Really, I don't.

22        Q.   Was this when you were the commander in Bijelo Bucje?  Was this

23     then or before that?

24        A.   Either -- I was either commander or I was removed from the

25     command position.

 1        Q.   Was this before the events that you described yesterday?  In

 2     connection with Guca Gora or after that?

 3        A.   I'm afraid I can't remember just now.  I need a little more time

 4     to think about it.

 5        Q.   If you remember, please tell us.  But will you now look at page

 6     3, 06050539.  And again I'm interested in a small excerpt from that page.

 7     Actually, the last part of that page.

 8             You describe a conversation here with Wahiuddin again.  Please

 9     look at that page.  Am I right in saying that you're describing a

10     conversation with Wahiuddin?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   And towards of the end of the page you say Wahiuddin said to you,

13     "That is why I wrote a positive report about you of which our bosses will

14     be informed.  This report will be sent somewhere where it will be kept

15     and protected."

16             In this connection, Witness, I should like to ask you it's true,

17     isn't it, that you, the Mujahedin who were members of al-Qaeda -- you

18     have already accepted that, haven't you, that you were observed by

19     Wahiuddin and that he wrote reports about you to his bosses?  Am I right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So these are al-Qaeda bosses.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So it would be fair to say that the Mujahedin administration

24     wrote reports about Mujahedin activities in Bosnia and their members to

25     bosses outside Bosnia?

 1        A.   Correct.

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could this

 3     document be given an exhibit number, please?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, Exhibit number 329.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   Witness, let me ask you something else now.  Testifying

10     yesterday, you spoke about the fighting in which the Mujahedin took part

11     in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in which you personally were involved.  You

12     remember that, don't you?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Your testimony with respect to the existence of the army of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina remained unclear in my mind.  When you were

16     recounting the events of 1992 and the beginning of 1993, you said at the

17     time the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not exist -- or, rather, there

18     was no proper organisation in the army.  Am I right in saying that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   On the other hand, you claimed that the Mujahedin agreed or

21     coordinated with army leaders regarding the battles at Jajce and Bijelo

22     Bucje.  Am I right?

23        A.   May I add something?

24        Q.   Yes, do.

25        A.   But I mentioned that this happened before the BH army was formed.

 1     I called them army commanders before the formation and during the

 2     formation of the army.

 3        Q.   What I would like you to clear up, how is it possible for army

 4     commanders to exist before the army itself was formed?  I don't

 5     understand that.

 6        A.   That was my understanding here in Bosnia.  I know that there was

 7     the TO at the time, which later was formed as the BH army.  So I -- as

 8     far as I personally am concerned, I referred to them as the BH army even

 9     before the army was formed, because it was from these units that the BH

10     army was established.

11        Q.   I see.  And when did the BH army come into existence then, in

12     your opinion?

13        A.   I noted that the BH army became better organised in 1993.

14        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  In your testimony you mentioned Brigadier

15     Asim.  You mentioned him in connection with your meeting in September

16     1992 and then in connection with the events before mid-1993.  Do you

17     remember that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   If I say that in the BH army at the time there were no ranks,

20     would you accept that?  You always use the term "brigadier" when

21     referring to Asim.  However, if I put it to you that throughout the time

22     period which you testified about yesterday, that is until mid-1993, there

23     were no ranks in the army at all, would you accept that?

24        A.   Can I explain that a little?

25        Q.   Give me a yes or no answer?

 1        A.   But I don't agree fully with what you are saying, because it

 2     needs to be explained.

 3        Q.   Please do.

 4        A.   I called Asim the brigadier because he himself called himself a

 5     brigadier.  I called Mehmed Alagic general because he called himself

 6     general before he became a general.  So that is how I used those terms.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  That explains your understanding of the events.

 8             Now let me also ask you about some other parts of your testimony.

 9     In your evidence yesterday about Bijelo Bucje, you said that Abdel Aziz

10     told you that he had contact with Alija Izetbegovic and the military

11     leadership with whom he had agreed where the Mujahedin would be billeted.

12     Did I understand you correctly yesterday?

13        A.   Yes, you did.

14        Q.   First of all, my conclusion is that you knew Abdel Aziz well and

15     that you were on good terms with him.  You spoke to him.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Would you tell Their Honours when Abdel Aziz left Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina?  I assume you know that.

19        A.   I don't remember when, but I know that he didn't stay for long.

20     I remember that -- I remember him while we were in Karaula.  When I was

21     in Bijelo Bucje, he was no longer there.  He had left Bosnia.  So this

22     means that he left Bosnia at the beginning of 1993.

23        Q.   Well, when then did he tell you that he had spoken to Izetbegovic

24     about the billeting of the unit in Bijelo Bucje?

25        A.   That was when I had just arrived in Bosnia and when we were at

 1     Karaula.  That is before we were accommodated in Bijelo Bucje.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So you're claiming that you learnt about this from

 3     Abdel Aziz; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   In any event, you personally did not attend any conversation or

 6     agreement between Adele Aziz and President Izetbegovic?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   What is more, you don't know at all whether what Abdel Aziz told

 9     you was true.

10        A.   I don't.  I referred to what he said.

11        Q.   And when we're talking about Abdel Aziz, it is true to say, isn't

12     it, that he didn't control many different groups of Mujahedin in Central

13     Bosnia?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   But, Witness, let me go back for a moment to Alija Izetbegovic

16     and Abdel Aziz.  Do you agree that Alija Izetbegovic is a highly

17     interesting personality, a central figure in Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Am

18     I right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And Abdel Aziz was a leading figure among the Mujahedin.  One of

21     the leading figures.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   On condition that you really did learn from Abdel Aziz that he

24     had conversed with Alija Izetbegovic, because this is something you

25     described in your book, because it's interesting --

 1        A.   No.  I described it because I believe that that is what happened.

 2     I wasn't personally present, but I believe it did happen, because this

 3     was confirmed -- this was confirmed by other Mujahedin, when talking to

 4     local and foreign Mujahedin.  And before I came here in Bosnia, I saw

 5     pictures in Islamic journals of Izetbegovic, and the topic was the

 6     discussion between Izetbegovic and Abdel Aziz.

 7        Q.   Witness, do you agree that you gave a series of interviews to

 8     Glas Srpski or Glas Javnosti from Banja Luka?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   And do you agree that you said there that you heard of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina for the first time when you arrived in Bosnia?  That

12     you knew about Yugoslavia, but not about Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13        A.   Of course this was before we heard about the events in Bosnia.  I

14     was aware of this while I was in Bahrain, because the war had already

15     started in Bosnia.  Before that I was not aware of the existence of

16     Bosnia.

17        Q.   But you now mention pictures of Alija Izetbegovic.

18        A.   No.  Of I just wanted to tell you why I believe that Abdel Aziz

19     did have a meeting with Izetbegovic, though I personally was not present.

20        Q.   I see.  So you believe that this happened, but you do not know

21     for sure.

22        A.   I believe and I'm sure, because I saw it in a journal in Bahrain.

23     Unless this was a mounted photograph, but his picture was there.

24        Q.   I would like to ask you more about the events that you described

25     yesterday, the events related to Ilijas and Visoko.  However, before that

 1     let me ask you the following:  It is correct that the leadership of the

 2     Mujahedin planned their own actions in which they took part; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   I said that they had their own organisation and that they

 5     requested that they should do their own reconnaissance.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  If you could possibly answer my questions

 7     I would appreciate that.

 8        A.   But still some of your questions require some elaboration.  I

 9     cannot answer all your questions with yes or no without any further

10     comment that I consider necessary.

11        Q.   All right.  So you have explained it yesterday and also today.

12     You said that they planned those actions.  I'm now talking only about the

13     planning.  I'm not talking about any cooperation.  I'm simply talking

14     about planning.

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Now I would like to refer to your statement given to the

17     investigators.  Yesterday you confirmed that you gave that statement in

18     August 2006.  Do you remember that?

19        A.   Yes, I remember.

20        Q.   I would like you to take a look at D328.

21             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to use D328

22     only to refresh the memory of the witness.  It's page 71 of the

23     transcript.  Your Honours, in English it is the end of page 71 where it

24     mentions the principal person, and then it goes on to the next page.

25        Q.   And to you, Witness, I'm going to quote the following:  You said,

 1     "The principal person was a Wahiuddin El Misri.  He was the military

 2     expert who had planned all attacks that were performed by the Mujahedin.

 3     He was one of the most important persons of al-Qaeda, and he was very

 4     operative while he was in Afghanistan.  Another person is an Egyptian,

 5     also a very important man.  His name is Ebu El Mu'utaz El Misri.  He was

 6     one of the important persons among the Mujahedin forces in Bosnia during

 7     the war.  He is a member of al-Qaeda.  I know him from Afghanistan.  We

 8     were there together."

 9             So, Witness, this is what I'm talking about.  Is this correct

10     what you have written in this part of your book?

11        A.   Yes, it is correct.

12        Q.   In other words, the boss of the Mujahedin would evaluate the

13     circumstances related to actions and then himself made the decision about

14     the participation of Mujahedins in these actions.

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   He would accept or not accept that they were participate in

17     battles; is that correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Yesterday you were telling us about some agreements with, as you

20     put it, army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, agreements related to

21     participation in battles.  Do you remember that?

22        A.   I remember it.

23        Q.   Witness, in actual fact during all the time that you spent on the

24     position of the commander of the unit in Bijelo Bucje, you never received

25     a single order from army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?  I'm

 1     talking about orders now.  You personally never received an order from BH

 2     army?

 3        A.   Not from them.  There was only cooperation.  There were no

 4     orders.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Specifically, you never received any written order?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to show you again a document that

 8     the Prosecutor showed you yesterday.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want to do with this one?  Thank you

10     very [Microphone not activated].

11             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, of course.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Document D328 is admitted into evidence.  May it

13     please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 330.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             Yes, Madam Vidovic.

17             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   I would like the witness to take a look at PT1024, and that's

19     P121.  Of it has already and admitted as P121.  Here it has the number

20     PT1024.

21             Witness, you read this document yesterday, and I would like you

22     to take a look at a small passage today.  I'm interested in the second

23     page of the document.  The number is 10832730.  Can you take a look at

24     the passage which finishes with "El Hamdulila."  After of that there are

25     two more paragraphs some place above the middle of the page beginning

 1     with the words "Some of the Mujahedins."

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on second page in

 3     English.  Second page in English.  I think this is okay.  Beginning with

 4     "Some Mujahids."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't found it.  Just a moment.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 7        Q.   It begins with "Some Mujahids."  Have you seen that?

 8        A.   Yes, I have it now.

 9        Q.   I'll quote it.  It says:  "Some Mujahids, including Arabs,

10     without my order moved towards elevation 744 on the right-hand side.

11     Then they came down to the village and started torching.  I caught up

12     with two Mujahids and informed Emir Heldic [phoen] that he and the

13     Mujahids should withdraw.  However, the Arabs went even further to the

14     right."

15             Witness, do you agree that the author of this part of the report

16     says that the Arabs went without his order towards elevation 744?

17        A.   I don't agree.

18        Q.   Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  Now I'm talking about the report.

19     I'm talking about the report, and then after that I'm going to ask you

20     about your understanding of the situation.  So my question is:  Do you

21     agree that the author of this report describes the situation in those

22     words?

23        A.   Yes, I agree with that.

24        Q.   So he says that they went there without his control.  He ordered

25     the withdrawal, and they did something opposite.  So now in relation to

 1     this I want to ask you the following:  You maybe don't know all the

 2     details about this action.  Am I correct about that?

 3        A.   There are details that I'm not aware of, that is correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday in your testimony you mentioned Ramo

 5     Durmis; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that he couldn't have ordered Mujahedins while

 8     taking part in this action?  I'm talking about him.

 9        A.   I agree with that, because I was there and I was commanding.  It

10     means that he couldn't command Arabs.  I don't agree with this part of

11     his statement where he says that the Arabs were torching the village.  It

12     was done by the locals.

13        Q.   Okay.  All right.  But I'm interested in this part.  Thank you

14     for your explanation, but this is what I'm interested in:  "Ramo Durmis

15     could not command them."  Is that correct?  I'm talking here about the

16     Mujahedins.

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would like to

20     move on to another topic.

21        Q.   I would like to ask you now about Mehmed Alagic, or

22     General Alagic.  Yesterday in your testimony you referred to contacts

23     with the army commanders, and you mostly spoke about Mehmed Alagic.  You

24     said that he was a general and the commander of the 7th Corps; is that

25     correct?

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   When talking about Mehmed Alagic, you established a connection

 3     between the agreement -- between him and the agreement between the army

 4     of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Mujahedin related to the fall of Jajce.

 5     Did I understand you correctly?

 6        A.   Yes, you did.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that Jajce fell towards the end of 1992?  Do you

 8     remember that?

 9        A.   I remember that.

10        Q.   You also established a connection between him and the agreements

11     related to the attack on Ilijas.  Did I understand that correctly?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That is also the end of 1992.

14        A.   That is correct.

15        Q.   You said that he introduced himself as General Alagic.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Witness, if I now put forward the claim that Mehmed Alagic, until

18     the middle of January 1993, until the middle of January 1993, he was not

19     even in Bosnia and Herzegovina, would that change your opinion on his

20     role?

21        A.   It would not.  There is a simple reason for that.  Can I explain

22     that?

23        Q.   Yes, you may.

24        A.   I'm still trying to tell you that it is very difficult for me to

25     be specific about dates and periods of events, so it is possible that

 1     maybe sometimes I jump two or three months forward or backward, and I

 2     think I have made it very clear in my written statement.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that you established connection between him and a

 4     very specific event, the fall of Jajce and Ilijas?  So you connect him

 5     with some events.

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7        Q.   So I have understood you correctly.  Witness, I would now like to

 8     tell you that you, even when you were commander, that is in the first

 9     half of 1993, didn't really have the understanding about which corps of

10     the BH army was covering Central Bosnia.  Am I correct?

11        A.   I was told that the general of the 7th Corps was Mehmed Alagic.

12     That's what I heard from him and from Brigadier Asim.

13             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the

14     witness to take a look at the document.  And also, Your Honour, I should

15     tell you that you're supposed to take the second binder that we have

16     given -- no, you're actually about to get it.  I'm sorry.  We were forced

17     to reorganise our cross-examination yesterday.

18             Also a copy for the Prosecutor.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second, Madam Vidovic.

20             Mr. Mundis.

21             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The Prosecution simply

22     wants to note for the record that this is the second time we've received

23     with a witness significant additional documents on the second day of the

24     cross-examination.  A similar -- similar situation arose with respect to

25     Witness PW-3, and pursuant to the guidelines it's our understanding that

 1     the Defence exhibits should be provided at the conclusion of the direct

 2     examination, whereas one or two additional documents present us with no

 3     problem.  I just simply want to put on the record at this point that this

 4     is the second time -- second witness where we've received significant

 5     additional documents on the second day of the cross-examination.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any comment, Madam Vidovic?

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Actually, the

 8     documents we received from the Prosecutor while preparing the testimony

 9     of this witness were substantially different from his testimony

10     yesterday.  We prepared our cross-examination based on the statements we

11     received.  Of the Prosecution changed his line of examination, and I

12     really have to say that I'm not a magician.  I simply couldn't possibly

13     change and adapt my documents so quickly.  We barely managed, Your

14     Honours, to reorganise all this now.  And the reason for that is the fact

15     that the Prosecutor in his examination covered also other areas from the

16     indictment.  It simply means that I also had to refer to part of the

17     testimony yesterday, and it caused me to change the line of my

18     cross-examination.

19             Anyway, Your Honour, you have to bear in mind that I really try

20     to give the documents related to cross-examination in time, and I believe

21     that the Prosecutor is going to find himself in the same situation when

22     he will be the one to cross-examine.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mundis.

24             MR. MUNDIS:  Your Honours, at this point I'm certainly not

25     objecting to the Defence proceeding.  I simply wanted to put that on the

 1     record so that if we continue to have this situation then perhaps we can

 2     take additional further steps.  But I -- but I do feel I must respond to

 3     the comments concerning the direct examination.  I believe that if the

 4     Trial Chamber were to take a look at the 65 ter summary of the expected

 5     testimony of this witness, there are not significant or substantial

 6     deviations from the 65 ter statement or material 65 ter summary and the

 7     direct examination.  But I don't want to take up any further time on this

 8     matter and suggest we proceed.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Then the Chamber will not

10     bother to look into the 65 ter list.  We've understood that the matter is

11     placed on the record.

12             You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

13             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness, take a look at D332.  For the record, it's an order

15     dated 26th of February, 1994, which appoints Mehmed Alagic, son of Redzo.

16     Witness, can you take a look at the second part of the document.  Do you

17     agree that the document is dated the 26th of February, 1994?  Take a look

18     at the second part of the document.  "To the 7th Corps, Brigadier Mehmed

19     Alagic, son of Redzo, to the post of corps commander.  Until now in the

20     post of the 3rd Corps commander."

21        A.   I see that.

22        Q.   Do you agree that this document says that Alagic not even in

23     February 1994 was a general but only a brigadier?  Do you see that in the

24     document?

25        A.   I can see it.

 1        Q.   Also, he wasn't the commander of the 7th Corps at the time.  Do

 2     you agree were that?  You agree that that's what the document says?

 3        A.   I'm not changing my testimony.  It's the same, although I see the

 4     document.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we give the

 7     exhibit number.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 9     please be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, Exhibit 331.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   In your testimony yesterday you said that the Mujahedins would

14     observe the orders of Alagic, and that included yourself.

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   And as an example, you said that Alagic told you not to blow up

17     the church in Guca Gora.

18        A.   Not quite.  It was the chief of Mujahedins who accepted this

19     order.

20        Q.   Thank you about -- through for this explanation.

21             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe it would be

22     better if we had a break now, because I'm probably going to spend more

23     time with the witness on the next document.  One or two minutes are not

24     going to be enough.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will come back at quarter past 11.00.  Court

 1     adjourned.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic.

 5             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Witness, we broke off when we were talking about General Alagic.

 7     Would you agree that in your book you described one -- the one and only

 8     time that you met him?

 9        A.   I don't recall specifically, because it's a book numbering 1.000

10     pages.

11        Q.   All right.  Do you remember describing a meeting like that that

12     you talked about yesterday?

13        A.   Yes, I did describe a meeting with him.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, I have been asked by the Trial Chamber and

15     the interpreters that we make a pause between my question and your answer

16     because we're speaking the same language.  Do you understand me?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   When I finished my question, please would you just pause before

19     you begin answering?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  All right.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like you to look at document D333.  This

22     is again an excerpt from your book about the meeting with Alagic, and I

23     would like to show them to you.  First, Witness, I would like you to look

24     at page 06050552.  Actually, can you look at the last sentence at the

25     bottom of the page.

 1             Would you agree that here you describe your arrival at Guca Gora?

 2     Do you agree?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I would also like to refresh your memory.  If you can

 5     look at the following page.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can assist.  In

 7     the English it's on the first page.  The relevant text begins with the

 8     words "When I arrived in Guca Gora."  This is some 10 lines from the top

 9     of the page.

10        Q.   Witness, I would like to quote this part of the document.  "I

11     thought that your commander Wahiuddin ..." can you find that?

12        A.   I've found it.

13        Q.   All right.  "Where is he?  I'd like to have a word with him."

14             So here you are describing the conversation between

15     General Alagic, as you said, and Ebu El Sadik.  Is this correct?  Do you

16     agree?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   You said that Alagic said, "'Where is he?  I'd like to have a

19     word with him.'  Ebu El Sadik told him rudely, 'I told you I was in

20     command here.  You talk to me if you have something to say.'  The General

21     said, 'I've learned about your intentions.  You're under my command, and

22     you don't have my permission to destroy the church.  The planting of

23     explosives must stop immediately.  Our unit will be sent to protect the

24     church.'  Ebu El Sadik laughed and then told him with an indescribable

25     lack of courtesy --"

 1        A.    "Lack of courtesy."

 2        Q.    "'We'll stop it, boss, but first of all you have to suck my D.'

 3     Then he became serious and continued.  'Who do you think you are to give

 4     us orders?  We'll do what Allah Jalishanu [phoen] ordered -- ordered us

 5     to do.  We don't take any orders from anyone but him.  We don't be afraid

 6     of anyone, not even you.  Leave us at once.'"

 7             And then a little later you say:  "'And do you know who you're

 8     talking to?  You're wrong if you think we're under your command.  We and

 9     not you and your army liberated this village, so it will be the way we

10     want and not the way you do.'  The General said in a sharp, threatening

11     voice, 'If by any chance you activate the explosive and destroy the

12     church, I will strike at you with my entire corps and kill you all.'

13     Ebu El Sadik gave a loud laugh and said, nodding his head as if his neck

14     hurt, 'Just you try and you'll see how you will drown in your own blood.'

15     Then he stepped up to him and pushed him with his hands, saying, 'Now get

16     the hell out of here as far as you can -- as far as you can before I

17     ripped your -- rip your head off.  You've already made my blood pressure

18     rise.'"

19             Witness, did you faithfully describe this incident with Alagic?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21        Q.   Actually, Witness, on that occasion the Mujahedin did not heed

22     General Alagic.  What is more, they threatened to kill him; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   They even physically assaulted him; is that correct?

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   On that occasion they actually listened to Wahiuddin, and I'm

 3     going to put it to you why if you accept that.  Now I would just like you

 4     to look at the same page.  It's towards the bottom of the page.  You are

 5     explaining the conversation with Wahiuddin, who said -- or who explained:

 6     "I would like to knock down this church.  I would also like to raze this

 7     church."

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Indiscernible].

 9             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  This is on page

10     2, or on the second page.  It's line 11, Your Honours, beginning with the

11     words "I would also like to raise this church."

12        Q.    He, Wahiuddin, said:  "I would also like to raise this church to

13     the ground, but we don't do it so as to avoid confusion, possibly even a

14     conflict between us and the Bosniaks.  Let them come and take control of

15     this damn church.  We don't need it."

16             And now, Witness, just to ask you this, did you faithfully

17     describe this part of the conversation as well?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Actually, Witness, your Mujahedin chief, Wahiuddin, estimated

20     that at that point it was not in his interest to have a conflict with the

21     Bosniaks and that was why he ordered you not to destroy the church.  Am I

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, you are.

24        Q.   So you actually listened to him and not to Alagic; is that

25     correct?

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document

 4     please be given an exhibit number.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 6     please be given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 332.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to draw

10     the witness's attention again to the interview that we looked at in Der

11     Spiegel.  This was D319 -- or, rather, Exhibit 326.  Your Honours, it's

12     in the first binder that I provided yesterday.

13        Q.   Witness, I would just like to draw your attention to one sentence

14     in this interview, which is just beneath the lines "Lights with a

15     chain-saw."  You said:  "'No general could command us,' former al-Qaeda

16     activist Ali Hamad said about his time as the commander of the Mujahedin

17     unit in town."

18             I would just like to ask you, is it correct that you stated this

19     to Der Spiegel?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now I would like to put some more questions

22     to you, a few questions about the 7th Muslim Brigade that you testified

23     about yesterday to make things quite clear.  You said that you at no

24     point in time were a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade; is that correct?

25     You yourself.

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   You also said that you didn't know its structure.  You were not

 3     familiar with its structure.

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   Witness, I would like to ask you something.  Would you agree that

 6     Bosniaks, local fighters that you met there, were not very familiar with

 7     military skills at the time that you testified about?  This was 1992 and

 8     the first half of 1993.  That they were not as skilled as you, the

 9     foreign Mujahedin.  Would you agree with that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Local Muslims never trained foreign fighters.  Would you agree?

12        A.   I don't know about that.

13        Q.   In other words, you didn't know of any example of local Muslims

14     training the Mujahedin in military skills or combat skills when they came

15     to Bosnia?

16        A.   No, I didn't know about that.

17        Q.   Now, can we look at D334, Witness, please.  Witness, the

18     Prosecutor showed you two documents yesterday which were admitted which

19     refer to the guerrilla.  I would like us to look at the documents.  The

20     document is D334, an order of the 7th Muslim Brigade of the 18th of

21     February, 1993, and it refers to the training of the guerrilla group

22     Mountain Forest.

23             Witness, can you please look at the order which states in

24     paragraph 1:  "Train the guerrilla group Mountain Forest according to the

25     existing plan and schedule."

 1             Witness, you agreed that Bosnian did not train the Mujahedin; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   I said that I didn't know cases like that.

 4        Q.   All right.  Very well.  You stayed in Bosnia, especially in that

 5     initial period.  Would you agree that the Bosnians had very strange names

 6     for their units, the Swans, the Wolves, ducks, and geese, and so on and

 7     so forth?

 8        A.   Yes, I agree.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that it's not unusual that they would name a part of

10     their unit mountain or forest?  Would you consider that unusual for a

11     guerrilla group to do that?

12        A.   Yes, you are correct?

13        Q.   All right.  So you cannot rule out the possibility that what they

14     term here as a guerrilla group Mountain Forest is just a normal part of

15     their unit?

16        A.   I am not really familiar with that, but I did say that such a

17     name did exist.

18        Q.   All right.  That's a fair answer.  Thank you very much.

19             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

20     given an exhibit number?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just -- let me just get a slight explanation.  I

22     keep hearing from the interpretation the word "forest," not "guerrilla

23     Mountain Forest."  I don't see it, the word "forest," on the document.

24     Could I be corrected to it, please?

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps the document

 1     can be placed on the ELMO.  Then in line one of the order it says:

 2     "Train the guerrilla group," and then in quotes:  "'Planina-Suma,'

 3     according to the existing plan and programme."

 4             In the English text it also says:  "Train the 'Planina-Suma',"

 5     those are Bosnian words, "guerrilla group."  The first line in the

 6     English version, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The document is admitted

 8     into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 333.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

12        Q.   Witness, I would like to draw your attention again to a part of

13     your testimony from yesterday in response to the Prosecutor's questions

14     about the 7th Muslim Brigade and speaking about -- and you also talked

15     about this in your statement of the 15th of August, 2006.  Yesterday you

16     used the following words, I'm going to read them back to you, you said:

17     "Guerrilla was part of the 7th Muslim Brigade."  What did you mean by

18     that?

19        A.   I meant the Turkish guerrilla, and that they were part of the 7th

20     Muslim.

21        Q.   Just to clarify what the words "Usus davu [phoen]," "part of,"

22     what do they mean?

23        A.   That they were part of the same brigade.  They were included in

24     the brigade.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.

 1             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the witness can

 2     now look at document D336, for the transcript.  It's a part of the

 3     statement to the Prosecutor.

 4        Q.   I would just like to refresh your recollection, Witness, about

 5     the statement you provided to the Prosecutor in August 2006.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to look at

 7     page 82 of the transcript.  The accused has it, and I think that you also

 8     have it.  Your Honours, the last two lines are relevant, and then that

 9     goes on to the following page.

10        Q.   Witness, do you see that in the transcript?  Witness, in the

11     Bosnian it's on the second page, the part that I'm interested in.  I'm

12     going to quote it to you.  You said:  "Yes, but the 7th Muslim Brigade

13     was composed of local combat amounts, but it had very close cooperation

14     with foreign Mujahedin."

15             So for a certain period of time Mujahedin occupied several large

16     premises which were part of the premises of the 7th Muslim Brigade.  And

17     the investigator put a question to you:  "But they were not under their

18     command."  And then you replied:  "No.  It was only cooperation."

19             Please, so in your statement to the investigators do you agree

20     that you said that the Mujahedin were not under the command of the 7th

21     Muslim?  Is this correct.

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   That is correct.  And this part of the statement that I read back

24     to you, is that correct, the statement that you provided to the

25     investigators?

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.  But I was thinking of the Mujahedin who

 2     were under the command of the Muslim forces in Travnik.

 3        Q.   So you were not thinking of the 7th Muslim Brigade, but you were

 4     thinking of the Muslim forces in Travnik.

 5        A.   No.  What I want to say, when I deny that the Mujahedin were

 6     under the command of the Muslim 7 forces, I was not thinking of the

 7     guerrilla, but I was thinking of the Mujahedin forces that were in

 8     Travnik within the Muslim forces.

 9        Q.   So how do you explain this part of the testimony or the

10     statement?  You said:  "The 7th Muslim was composed of local combatants."

11             Please, how would the Turkish guerrilla then be part of the local

12     combatants?

13        A.   I confirmed that yesterday, because -- for two reasons.  The

14     first one was that because during my visit to the facilities where the

15     7th Muslim was located, I met some of those Turks who were in the

16     guerrilla, and then the attack on Ilijas in 1992.  During that attack I

17     saw a group of Turks, Turkish guerrillas, who participated in the war

18     under the command of the 7th Muslim.  So I confirm that on the basis of

19     that, that they were part of the 7th Muslim.

20        Q.   All right, Witness.  Just to clarify the following:  You, based

21     on the fact that you saw some people from the Turkish guerrilla in the --

22     at the premises of the 7th Muslim, you base the conclusion that they were

23     part of that force.  Did I understand you correctly?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   In other words, you have no other proof for that?  And I will go

 1     back to that.

 2        A.   I don't have other proof other than what I mentioned.

 3        Q.   All right.  And before we talked about the participation, about

 4     the fighting in Visegrad, the Visegrad-Ilijas elevation, that's what you

 5     called it, would you agree that I showed you an excerpt showing that the

 6     Arabs left with -- without the command of Ramo Durmis, and you confirmed

 7     that the Arabs at the time had their own command.  They were not

 8     reporting to Ramo Durmis, but they listened to their own Mujahedin

 9     command.

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.

11        Q.   Very well, then.  How were they under the command of the

12     7th Brigade?  The fact that they fought together, do you consider that to

13     mean that they were under their command?

14        A.   I meet fighters from the 7th Muslim Brigade.  They were local

15     people, and among them there were Turks.  So the 27 of us foreign

16     Mujahedin that were there and the Turkish guerrillas, there was a

17     misunderstanding and we exchanged fire.  We shot at them, and they fire

18     at us.  And then the local people from the 7th Brigade said that they

19     were their people and that they had come to the 7th Brigade.  So on that

20     basis you come to the conclusion that the 7th was the command of these

21     people.

22        Q.   Very well.  Witness, do you agree that you, yesterday during your

23     testimony, described an incident between the 7th Muslim Brigade and the

24     Mujahedin when members of the 7th Muslim Brigade killed two Mujahedin?

25     Do you remember that?

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And in this connection I should

 3     like the witness to have a look at D338, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] ... D338.  What shall

 5     we do with D336?

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  May the

 7     document be given an exhibit number, please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D336 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 9     given an exhibit number?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 334.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   Witness, you described for us yesterday a serious

14     misunderstanding incident between the 7th Muslim Brigade and the

15     Mujahedin, and I would like you to look at this document D338, and I draw

16     your attention to page 2, paragraph 13.  It's the same in English.  At

17     paragraph 13, Witness.

18             In this paragraph 13 of this document of the 7th Muslim Brigade I

19     will quote:  "Urgently sort out matters with all armed formations that

20     have not been brought under the command of the BH army.  As regards HVO

21     units, they are a component of the armed forces and full cooperation must

22     be established with them.  Instructions will follow on how to carry out

23     further organisation."

24             Witness, please, on the basis of this document we see that the

25     commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade is ordering that matters be sorted

 1     out with armed formations that are not under the command of the army of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina and which are not the HVO either.  That is what

 3     the document says.

 4             Would you allow for the possibility that here he is referring to

 5     the Mujahedin, that is sorting out matters with the Mujahedin?

 6        A.   If you mean the Mujahedin coming from Travnik, I exclude that

 7     possibility because the 7th Muslim had no right to make any decisions

 8     about them.

 9        Q.   Witness, I'm not talking about the Mujahedin from Travnik.  I'm

10     talking about the Mujahedin in general, about formations that are not

11     under the control of the army and are not the HVO.  Would you allow for

12     that possibility?  You have described a serious conflict when there was

13     shooting between the 7th Muslim and the Mujahedin regarding the killing

14     of Efendija Karalic.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Do you then allow for the possibility?

17        A.   I don't know.  That is a fair reply.

18             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be

19     given an Exhibit number, please?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

21     please be given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 335.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Yes, Madam Vidovic.

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 1        Q.   You have confirmed for us that the Mujahedin wanted to kill

 2     Efendija Mahmut Karalic; is that right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Do you remember that in your book you described that they wanted

 5     to kill Ademovic as well?  Is that right too?

 6        A.   Yes, it's right.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now move on to another segment having -- which

 8     you also testified about yesterday.  In your statement you said that you

 9     received food, uniforms, and weapons from the Muslim forces; is that

10     right?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   Witness, I wish to remind you and to refresh your memory in

13     connection with a part of the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor.

14             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness have a look at

15     D344, 344.  Is it, Your Honour, the last sentence on page 55, and it goes

16     on on page 56.  That is the relevant portion.

17        Q.   You have in the translation the part where the investigator is

18     asking you whether you receive any kind of salary, and the investigator

19     asked you whether you received any financial support.

20        A.   No.  In fact, we gave then money, because in those days they had

21     no money, so they couldn't even pay their own soldiers let alone pay us.

22        Q.   Witness, is that a true description with respect to the local

23     fighters?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In connection with the question of the arming of the Mujahedin

 1     and logistics, I wish to show you a few more documents.

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But before that, Your Honour, may

 3     this document be given an exhibit number.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 336.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now

 9     have a look at D345.  These are again excerpts from his book.

10        Q.   Witness, will you look through at page 06050726.  Do you agree

11     that in a part of your book you describe the work of Islamic humanitarian

12     organisations in Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Is that right?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Look at this page now, please.  It is entitled "Kuwaiti

15     Humanitarian Organisation."  Can you see that?  And will you please read

16     through the text under this heading.  And in this connection I have the

17     following question for you:  Do you agree that you said that while you

18     were a commander of the Mujahedin unit in Bijelo Bucje you received funds

19     for the needs of the unit from a Kuwaiti humanitarian organisation?  Do

20     you agree?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, will you please look at the page 06050731.  Can you look at

23     that page, please?  To save time, please focus on eight or nine lines

24     from the top when you say:  "When I was a commander of a unit in Bijelo

25     Bucje."  This is page 3 of the English version, beginning:  "When I was

 1     commander of the unit in Bijelo Bucje near Travnik."

 2             I believe, Witness, that by now you have read this excerpt, and I

 3     would like to ask you the following:  You described here that while you

 4     were the commander you also received humanitarian aid from several other

 5     Islamic organisations.  And not only from the Kuwaiti, among them the

 6     Third World Organisation.

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Please look now at page 06050737.  And I draw your

 9     attention, Witness, to the bottom part of this page.

10             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is page 4 in the

11     English version, beginning about 10 or 12 lines from the top, "Under very

12     strange circumstances, general director Naser."

13        Q.   Witness, for you I have a question.  Do you agree that you're

14     describing here the activities it of the Balkan Islamic centre in Zenica?

15     Am I right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And in this excerpt you say that you were given considerable

18     assistance with money and food for members of the El Mujahedin Detachment

19     and El Zuhayr's unit.

20        A.   I'm sorry, there's a mistake here.  We're talking about the High

21     Saudi Committee.

22        Q.   Very well.  Then I'm wrong.  Is it true that what I'm asking you,

23     that is that the Saudi committee assisted the El Mujahedin Detachment as

24     well as members of Zubeir's unit?  But your conclusion was that

25     Zubeir's unit received more assistance.  Am I right?

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I wish to ask you the following:  In addition to the El Mujahedin

 3     unit, the Mujahedin administration also formed a unit called

 4     Abu Zubeir?

 5        A.   I didn't say that the Mujahedin Detachment formed it, but the

 6     main al-Qaeda cell outside Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   I understand.  So the main allocate a cell outside Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina formed the El Mujahedin Detachment.  And who formed the

 9     Abu Zubeir unit?

10        A.   Also an al-Qaeda cell.

11        Q.   Thank you for this explanation.

12             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be

13     admitted into evidence and given a number.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

15     please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 337.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now

19     look at document D346 regarding this same topic.

20        Q.   Witness, I wish to draw your attention to this first paragraph

21     when you see the name Talal Filal.  This is also at the top of the page

22     in the English version.

23             Witness, will you just read that paragraph.

24        A.   I have read it.

25        Q.   My question is:  Did you know Talal Filal, son of Hasan?

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Let me quote from this document.  "When the three of them set up

 3     the Islamic Centre Balkan in Zenica, the aim of which was to spread the

 4     faith --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have read the first paragraph.  Now, where are

 6     you reading now?

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  The

 8     eighth line of the English version.  It begins with the words "The three

 9     of them."

10        Q.   So it says here that:  "The Balkan Islamic Centre in Zenica,

11     whose aim was to spread Islam and provide welfare and humanitarian help

12     to the needy.  These two organisations and some other humanitarian

13     organisations from Arab countries (Elaharamine) [phoen], were used as

14     logistic support for the El Mujahedin Detachment."

15             I want to ask you whether you knew anything about the Balkan

16     Islamic Centre.

17        A.   I did know a little about it, and I described this in my book.

18        Q.   Do you agree that this document contains correct information

19     regarding assistance given to the detachment?  Do you agree?

20        A.   No, I don't, because I have a different opinion of that centre

21     and the people who headed that centre.

22        Q.   Very well.  Can you tell us what your opinion is?

23        A.   I know that foreign Mujahedin headed that centre.  In public they

24     claimed it was intended to spread Islam, but in fact it was al-Qaeda

25     activities in Bosnia during the war.  They attempted in this way to -- to

 1     spread the belief among domestic Mujahedin similarly to the beliefs that

 2     foreign Mujahedins had.

 3        Q.   In what way would they win them over, by giving them material

 4     assistance?

 5        A.   First of all, quite a number of young people came to study real

 6     Islam, and they taught them incorrectly, telling them that real Islam is

 7     violence over all those who do not belong to that faith, but they also

 8     gave them financial aid.

 9        Q.   So this Islamic centre assisted financially whom?

10        A.   People who came regularly to that centre.

11        Q.   Where?

12        A.   To the premises of the Balkan Islamic Centre in Zenica.

13             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be

14     given an exhibit number, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

16     please be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 338.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In connection with this same issue,

20     Your Honour, could the witness look at document D347.  It is an excerpt

21     from an official record on intercepted conversations, dated the 23rd of

22     October, 1995.

23        Q.   Could you, Witness, please, look at page 4 of this document.

24             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is page 5 of the

25     English version.

 1        Q.   And, Witness, will you look at paragraphs from 16 to 20.  Page 5

 2     of the English version, paragraphs from 16 through 20.

 3             Will you please look at the names that are mentioned here.  Do

 4     you agree with me that this refers to a conversation between Abu Talib

 5     and Abu Ma'ali?  You're familiar with the name Abu Ma'ali.  Who was he?

 6        A.   He was they were the head of a Mujahedin Detachment.

 7        Q.   Did you know Abu Talib perhaps?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that it says here that Alib [phoen] asked for money

10     to purchase weapons?

11        A.   I am not aware of that.

12        Q.   I'm just asking you this.  Please look further down.  Do you know

13     Abu Hajir?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Do you know Abu Rachid?

16        A.   I think not.

17        Q.   Do you know Abu Eymen?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Witness, you see here conversations among these people with

20     Arabic names regarding the procurement of weapons.  Did you know that the

21     Mujahedin did obtain weapons for themselves with their own money?

22        A.   Yes, I did know that they purchased weapons.

23             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Can this

24     document be given an exhibit number, please, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 339.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Witness, during your testimony yesterday, you said on a number of

 6     occasions that the Mujahedin were under the command of the army, that is,

 7     within the composition of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  What I

 8     would like to put to you is the following:  The Mujahedin in Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina actually were never under the command of the army.  Local

10     commanders never gave orders to them.  I'm talking about commands and not

11     cooperation.  Can you confirm that?

12        A.   I don't agree.  First of all, we foreign Mujahedin did not

13     participate in any battle without cooperating with the BH army -- or,

14     rather, the local commanders decided the locations where we would attack.

15     Then they would ask us for our assistance, and then we would take part in

16     that operation but on condition that we, too, have to carry out

17     surveillance of the area.

18        Q.   And during those operations you received orders from your

19     commanders?

20        A.   Yes, because whichever battle we agreed to take part in, we set

21     as a precondition to the Bosnian commanders that during the attack itself

22     we should be in command, and they agreed to that.

23        Q.   So the -- your precondition for participating in the operation

24     was that you should be in command.  Is that a correct understanding?

25        A.   Yes.

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Testifying yesterday, Witness, you mentioned the name

 2     Abdul, and I apologise if I mispronounce it, Abuladim Maqtouf as one of

 3     the interpreters for the Mujahedin.  Do you remember mentioning that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   He was not a member of the El Mujahedin unit?

 6        A.   No, he was not a member.

 7        Q.   Is that the person who was convicted by an effective judgement

 8     for participation in hijack -- in the kidnapping?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what is your position about this?  Was this person guilty?  I

11     don't want you to recount this event.  I just want to hear what you view

12     is.  Was the person guilt or not?

13        A.   I think that that person was not guilty for the crime for which

14     he was convicted.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I now wish to ask you, do you remember that you gave

16     a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of the State Court of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina against the accused Abduladim Maqtouf to Jonathan

18     Smith on the 9th of May, 2005?  Do you remember that?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Will you now please look at that statement.  It is D348.  First

21     of all, take a look at the second page of the document.  Take a look at

22     it.

23             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you have it in

24     English.

25        Q.   Now, since the document was compiled before a Bosnian court, the

 1     Bosnian version is signed.  Witness, do you agree that you signed this

 2     statement?

 3        A.   I agree.

 4        Q.   So can you please take a look at the second page.  No.  Actually,

 5     it's page number 5 in Bosnian, and in English it's page number 4.  So

 6     number 4 in English, and for you number 5.

 7             Have you found it, page number 5?  I'm now going to quote a short

 8     excerpt from -- from your conversation with the Prosecutor.  The

 9     Prosecutor asks:  "You say al-Qaeda.  There was no al-Qaeda organisation

10     in BiH."

11        A.   In Bosnian it's number 4, actually.

12        Q.   My mistake.

13        A.   Yes, I see it.

14        Q.   So the Prosecutor:  "You say al-Qaeda.  There was no al-Qaeda

15     organisation in BiH."  You say:  "It is not true."  Prosecutor:  "There

16     were soldiers who fought, but there was no al-Qaeda organisation."  You

17     answer:  "That is not true, because al-Qaeda organised the arrival of

18     Mujahedins to be BiH.  Their people were the leaders of those forces."

19     Prosecutor:  "Including El Mujahid unit?"  And you answer:  "Yes."

20             Therefore, you said here that people from al-Qaeda headed the

21     detachment and commanded the detachment; is that correct?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   You also clearly stated that al-Qaeda organised the arrival of

24     those people to Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Is that correct?

25        A.   That is correct.

 1        Q.   Now, Witness, isn't it improbable that the commanders of a poor

 2     army of Bosnia and Herzegovina would command the chiefs of al-Qaeda, what

 3     you are attempting to say here?

 4        A.   Well, briefly I can only state that we, the foreign Mujahedins,

 5     from the very arrival to Bosnia during the war, that we haven't actually

 6     arrived here to help the Bosnian people.  It is true that we have stated

 7     that, but we had our secret goals unknown to local people.  Not those

 8     from the BiH army, and also not the leadership, Izetbegovic and others

 9     who led the country during the war.

10             In my book, I wrote a text headed "The Connections Between The

11     Current Leadership of the BiH and the Mujahedins."  So I state that there

12     was a connection between the BiH army and Mujahedins, and what I say is

13     that they were controlled by the BiH army, I mean the Mujahedins, but

14     they didn't know and what those foreign Mujahedins were precisely because

15     we tried to hide those things from them.  I mean, al-Qaeda activities.

16     We arrived here on a mission there al-Qaeda.

17        Q.   Wait a minute here.  I have just given you a part of your

18     statement given to the international state prosecutor here.  I think it

19     was Jonathan Smith.  There you say that members of al-Qaeda commanded

20     Mujahedins.  How could the BH army then control them?  How can you

21     explain that?

22        A.   Well, there was different kinds of commands.  For instance, if

23     you talk about El Misri, one of the chiefs of the Mujahedin, he had

24     contact with the people who had come from outside the BiH.  He would be

25     the one who would report about a situation.

 1             So for instance, if al-Qaeda would refuse that we take part in an

 2     attack, then we wouldn't take part in that attack even with the BiH army

 3     would request -- would request us.  So if al-Qaeda would give permission

 4     to take part in an attack, it would mean that we would have to cooperate

 5     with the BiH army.  It means that al-Qaeda was on top of everything for

 6     us, the foreign Mujahedin.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, I'm satisfied with this answer.

 8             Now, can you take a look at D349.

 9             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And of course I should like to ask

10     the previous document be given an exhibit number.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The previous document 348 is admitted into

12     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 340.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

17        Q.   Witness, D349, page number 06050631.  So what I'm interested in

18     is line number six where it says:  "This unit was merged with the

19     Mujahedin unit called Zubeir 's unit."

20             I want to ask you a question in relation to that.

21             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, Your Honours, you have

22     the passage here, and it says:  "This unit was merged with the Mujahedin

23     unit called Zubeir's unit."

24        Q.   Witness, here you state:  "This unit was merged with the

25     Mujahedin unit called Zubeir's unit.  I, however, was not under the

 1     command of the Green Berets but Zubeir's unit.  Otherwise, the

 2     Mujahedin position was always the same.  Mujahedin should be commanded by

 3     the Mujahedin and the Bosniaks by the Bosniaks.  We will cooperate and

 4     work together with them, but we shall not accept any orders from them.

 5     We can only accept proposals which then we may accept or not.  This was

 6     al-Qaeda position of which I was aware even before I came to Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina, and it had never been violated."

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Vidovic.

 9             Yes, Mr. Mundis.

10             MR. MUNDIS:  Your Honours, perhaps before, if the witness

11     answers, if we could be given a time period in which this part of the

12     witness's book relates.  I think we've been shown a huge number of

13     excerpts from his book.  This excerpt in particular, I believe, needs to

14     have a particular date reference for the benefit of the Trial Chamber,

15     and so I would ask my learned colleague if she could provide us or

16     perhaps ask the witness to provide us with the time period in which this

17     excerpt of his book relates.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic.

19             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I will do that.

20        Q.   Witness, here you describe activities of Zubeir's unit, and all

21     of us here really want to know whether you remember what time period is

22     it, your description here.  Did I understand it correctly that it was

23     1995?

24        A.   It is the period from 1994 until the end of the war.

25        Q.   Thank you.

 1             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, does this satisfy you?

 2     Yes.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   So let's finish this thing here.  It says here:  "Work together

 4     with them but not accept any orders from them, only proposals, which then

 5     we may accept or not.  This was al-Qaeda position of which I have been

 6     aware before I came to BiH, and it had never been violated in this area

 7     during the entire war."

 8             Now, Witness, it is correct, isn't it, that you described here

 9     actual relations between the Bosniaks and the Mujahedins?  The al-Qaeda

10     rules was in force when it comes to the Mujahedins?

11        A.   That is correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And now just a brief question related to

13     Abu Zubeir's unit.

14             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is having very

15     important for us right now, but before that I should ask that this

16     document be given an exhibit number.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 341.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

22        Q.   You remember that when you gave the statement to the Prosecutor

23     in August 2006 you gave a detailed description of the Abu Zubeir's

24     unit.

25        A.   I remember that.

 1        Q.   Now, first of all, you knew Mr. Abu Zubeir very well?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you give us his physical description?  Was there something

 4     characteristic about him?

 5        A.   Well, he looked a bit fat, a bit slow.  He didn't look like a

 6     military-able man.

 7        Q.   In other words, he was big.  He was fat.  Am I correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

11     witness to take a look at D350.  For the record, that's an excerpt from

12     the book written by Evan Kohlmann titled "Al-Qaeda's Jihad in Europe."

13             In Bosnian it's page 52.  In English it's the second page in

14     English here.  It begins with words "Like Abu Sulajman [phoen],

15     Abu Zubeir al Haili."

16        Q.   Can you see that Witness, the beginning of this page?  It says

17     here:  "Like Abu Sulajman, Abu Zubeir al Haili, also known as 'The

18     Bear,' a 300 pound monster of a man, had also first gained the reputation

19     as a fearless and calculating military commander in Afghanistan before

20     serving as an artillery expert with the Arab Mujahedin in Bosnia.  Until

21     recently, Abu Zubeir was a resident of Tooting, South London, where he

22     regularly sent young recruits from the West to Taliban and al-Qaeda

23     training camps in central Asia.  He came from the same area of Saudi

24     Arabia as bin Laden and had first fought alongside the infamous al-Qaeda

25     chief during the Soviet-Afghan war.  Two years ago, The Bear even

 1     reportedly helped coordinate the escape of Osama bin Laden from the

 2     collapsing Tora Bora cave complex."

 3             Now, I'm interested in description of this person.  The person

 4     described in here, is that the person that you call Abu Zubeir?

 5        A.   We used to call him Abu Zubeir al Haili, that's true, but this

 6     other name is unknown to me, so I'm not quite sure whether it's the same

 7     person.

 8        Q.   But I'm asking you about the physical description.

 9        A.   Well, physically, yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The name is unknown, The Bear?

11             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

12        Q.   "Abu Zubeir al Haili," did you say that?

13        A.   Yes, I said that.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said you know that name, but you also said,

15     "This other name I do not know," and I'm -- my question is which other

16     name is this that you don't know?  Is that the name that calls him The

17     Bear or anything else?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Excuse me.  You didn't

19     understand me.  Here they say that this person has, among other names,

20     also Abu Zubeir al Haili.  In answer to the question of Defence whether

21     it was the same person that I was referring to, I said maybe.  Maybe it

22     is, maybe it isn't.  Because this name here, Abu Zubeir al Haili, is

23     the name that I know, but his characteristics contained in here are not

24     known to me.  That is why I cannot conclude whether that's the same

25     person or not.

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for that explanation.

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, for

 3     interrupting you.

 4        Q.   Now, Witness, the description in book, is that the physical

 5     description of Abu Zubeir that you know?  He's a big man?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we assign an

 9     exhibit to this document?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 342.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   And now, Witness, I would like to remind you again of the

16     statement you gave to the investigators of the -- of the Prosecutor on

17     the 15th of August, 2006, if I'm not mistaken.  Do you remember that you

18     drew a very detailed diagram of the attack, and it was attachment B to

19     your statement of the 15th of August?  First of all, can you take a look

20     at D352?  You will then understand what I'm referring to.  D352.

21             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me explain.  I did

22     request a translation of the entirety of the text contained in this

23     document.  However, you know the problems.  I really don't have to

24     explain these things.  You know that the Translation Unit has lots of

25     work, so we only have here a small translation of the part of the text in

 1     the left upper corner and the left lower corner.  When I receive the

 2     whole translation of the document, I'm going to attach it.  In other

 3     words, I'm going to replace this incomplete translation with the complete

 4     translation.  However, right now --

 5             MR. MUNDIS:  Perhaps -- my learned colleague has made reference

 6     to an attack.  Perhaps if she can again for the record indicate the date

 7     that this diagram relates to, please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic?

 9             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.  First I

10     wanted the witness to take a look at the map, and then I would of course

11     go on and ask the very question that my colleague, Prosecutor, now

12     mentioned.

13        Q.   Witness, in your statement given to the Prosecutor you described

14     events relate -- related to the attack on Vozuca in September 1995.  Am I

15     correct?  I'm talking here about your statement to the Prosecutors.

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   So that's the attack.  Now, can you take a look at your drawing,

18     and can you confirm that you have indeed drawn this in your own hand,

19     signed, and then handed over to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 17th

20     of August, 2006?

21        A.   Yes, that's the same drawing.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like this

24     document to be assigned an exhibit number.

25        Q.   Witness, here you have described the movements of certain units

 1     such as El Mujahedin and Abu Zubeir during the attack; is that correct?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 4     please be given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 343.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 8        Q.   Witness, now I would like to pose a brief question related to a

 9     person that you maybe know.  I'm going to ask you do you know Ahmed

10     Zuhayr aka Handala?

11        A.   I know him.

12             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the

13     witness to take a look at D354.

14        Q.   And before we start working with this document, it is correct,

15     isn't it, that in September 1995, in combat activities, this person also

16     took part along with his group?  I am talking about Ahmed Zuhayr Handala.

17        A.   That is not correct.  He took part in this action, but he was an

18     ordinary soldier under my command.

19        Q.   Okay.  But you haven't really understood my question.  I haven't

20     really said if he was in the Abu Zubeir's unit.  I simply said he did

21     take part in combat activities in 1995.

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, take a look at D354.

24             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is a statement

25     given to the FBI investigators related to the murder of William Arnold

 1     Jefferson on 18th of November, 1995.

 2             Your Honour, we have that statement in English.  We are

 3     interested in the second paragraph.  Second paragraph on the first page

 4     of the statement, both in Bosnian and English version.

 5        Q.   Witness, you stated that:  "Handala left the Mujahedins due to a

 6     misunderstanding.  He wanted to form his own unit, and he had good

 7     connections with Osama bin Laden, and Osama bin Laden respected what

 8     Handala wanted to do with his group.  Handala, aka Zuhayr, convinced

 9     member of the Mujahedin's Light Brigade and other young members to join

10     his unit.  It was Handala's plan to develop the young members of his unit

11     to become the future members of the unit."

12             So I understand that Handala, in 1995, was not a member of

13     El Mujahedin.

14        A.   That is correct.

15             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like this

16     document to be assigned an exhibit number.  Your Honour, maybe this is

17     also a convenient moment for the break.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

19     please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 344.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             Madam Vidovic, I did know that you did ask at the beginning of

23     your cross-examination that you be given slightly more time than the

24     Prosecution did get.  You will -- you are left with about 10 minutes to

25     the end of your first three hours.  Just think about that during the

 1     break.

 2             We will take a break and a come back at 1.00.  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 7        Q.   Witness, before the break we talked about Zuhayr, and now I would

 8     like you to look at document D355.  D355?

 9             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I would like to

10     say that this is an article published in the Oslobodjenje daily on the

11     7th of December, 1997, and the title of the article is "Zuhayr is the

12     Real Handala."

13        Q.   I can see that you put your glasses on.  Can you please look at

14     this photograph and the ID document, and I'm asking you the following:

15     The person from this ID card, is that Handala Zuhayr, the same Handala

16     that we are talking about?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Witness, now I'm going to read to you the beginning of the text,

19     this article from the Oslobodjenje daily of the 7th of December, 1997.

20     It is says -- it says:  "Ahmed Zuhayr, whose official identity card

21     issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Croatia was

22     published in yesterday's Oslobodjenje, is the real Handala suspected of

23     being a high-ranking terrorist in these areas."

24             And then at the bottom of the article...

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 2 in the

 1     English.

 2        Q.   ... there is another excerpt just underneath the photograph, and

 3     it says:  "Zuhayr is a Saudi but most probably worked for several

 4     intelligence services."

 5             I would like to ask you this:  Is Zuhayr from -- is he a Saudi by

 6     origin?

 7        A.   I think that he's a Yemeni, but he had a Saudi passport.

 8        Q.   All right.  Can you tell me if you had information that he worked

 9     for intelligence services?

10        A.   I did not have that information.  I learned that only during

11     questioning.  But before that I noticed that he had some secret contacts

12     with the HVO military police.

13        Q.   He had contacts with the military police of the Croatian Defence

14     Council?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When did you notice that?

17        A.   I met him or had meetings with him from 1994 until the end of the

18     war.  Before being arrested in 1995, he moved around in territories that

19     were under the control of the HVO without difficulties while other

20     Mujahedin were not able to do so.  Sometimes he was escorted by HVO

21     police vehicles.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like the

24     witness to look -- oh, and also can this document be given an exhibit

25     number, please, this article?

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 345.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             Yes, Madam Vidovic.

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 7        Q.   Witness, I would now like you to look at D356.  This is an

 8     interview that you gave on the 26th of June, 2007, to the Glas Javnosti

 9     magazine.  Witness I would like to ask you to first tell us if you did

10     provide this interview.  Can you look, please?  And it's dated the 26th

11     of June, 2007.

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Can you please look at page 2 of this interview.  I am going to

14     ask you the following:  Can you please look at this part when you are

15     being asked:  "Why was that building demolished?  What was that for?"

16     Could you see that part?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   The journalist asked you about the crime that you were sentenced

19     for as an accomplice, and you talked about the person who was convicted

20     together with you for the same crime.  Am I correct?

21        A.   Yes, you are.

22        Q.   I'm going to read a part out to you.  You said that he worked for

23     al-Qaeda and also the Croatian Secret Service.  Which jobs did he do for

24     al-Qaeda and which ones did he do for al-Qaeda [as interpreted]?

25        A.   I don't know.  I don't know if Croatia knew he was an al-Qaeda

 1     man, but I know that on one occasion he was allowed to come from Croatia

 2     with a truck full of weapons which were handed over to the Mujahedin.

 3        Q.   My question is:  Were you talking here about Ahmed Zuhayr Handala

 4     or someone else?

 5        A.   About Ahmed Zuhayr.

 6        Q.   And you had information that he worked for the Croatian Secret

 7     Service?

 8        A.   I repeated what I was told during questioning by the Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina MUP, but before that I suspected that he was cooperating with

10     the Secret Service, which was then confirmed to me by the inspector

11     during my questioning.

12        Q.   Forget the inspectors now.  Can you tell me -- and I'm talking

13     about your personal knowledge now, not what you heard from others.  What

14     did you personally know about this cooperation?  Did you know about this

15     truck with weapons?

16        A.   I didn't know about this truck with weapons, I wasn't present,

17     but he confirmed that himself.  And I know that the Mujahedin in

18     Travnik -- or, rather, in Zenica received plenty of weapons through him.

19     So this confirmed to me that he was speaking the truth.

20        Q.   And what was he saying?

21        A.   That he came from Croatia with a full truck of weapons and that

22     he managed to enter Bosnia without any problems, and then he handed these

23     weapons over to the Muslims.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

 1     given an exhibit number.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 3     please be given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 346.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             Madam Vidovic.

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

 8        Q.   Witness, I would now like to clarify one more thing with you.

 9     You described at one point -- or you said that Abdel Aziz told you about

10     his contacts with Izetbegovic, and then you said some other Bosniak

11     Muslims had contacts with al-Qaeda representatives.  Did I understand you

12     correctly, that you said that at the time you did not know anything about

13     the al-Qaeda organisation itself?  Am I correct?

14        A.   Are you thinking about Bosnian Muslims?

15        Q.   Yes, I am.

16        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I didn't know about that, or they didn't

17     know about that.

18        Q.   Would you agree that al-Qaeda and its actions became a topic only

19     after 11th of September?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   So the local Muslims considered them Arabs.  They didn't have any

22     idea about al-Qaeda at that time.  Is that what you wanted to say?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.

24             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.  I have no

25     further questions.

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  11th of September of which, ma'am?

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2001.  And I hope I am not mistaken

 3     in that year.  If I have made a mistake, I apologise, but it's 2001.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do I understand you said that it is your evidence

 5     that the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina didn't know anything about

 6     al-Qaeda until the 11th of September, 2001?  Is that what you are saying?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that, yes, but I'm

 8     thinking of the people, not about the authorities or people in authority.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in that case just one

11     more clarification.

12        Q.   Witness, please, when you were describing these contacts of

13     individuals from the Bosnian leadership, did I understand you correctly

14     that you said that they, at the time during the war, did not know that

15     the Arabs --

16        A.   Not during the wartime, only after the war.  Only then was this

17     discussed in international institutions.  So local organs didn't know

18     about that.

19        Q.   That these were al-Qaeda members actually?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.

22             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

23     questions.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

25             Mr. Mundis.

 1             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

 3        Q.   Mr. Hamed, I just want to return to a couple of questions raised

 4     both by the Defence and in the question that the Presiding Judge just put

 5     to you.  When you say the authorities may have known about al-Qaeda,

 6     who -- whom are you referring to?

 7        A.   I meant the police, the intelligence people.  I said and I wrote

 8     in my book that they didn't know about that, but we cannot rule out the

 9     possibility that some of them did know.

10        Q.   And in response to a number of questions put to you by

11     Mrs. Vidovic, you elaborated upon an earlier answer you'd given me

12     concerning a meeting between Ebu Abdel Aziz and President Izetbegovic,

13     and my question to you, sir, is are you aware of any other instance where

14     foreign Mujahedin or foreign Mujahedin leaders met with President

15     Izetbegovic?

16        A.   I heard something in conversations with Mujahedin.  I was a unit

17     commander at the beginning of the war, and all my interest was focused on

18     my own unit, meaning that I did not pay attention to these other affairs,

19     contacts with the political and military leadership in Sarajevo.  Also,

20     when the Mujahedin Detachment was formed, I learned through conversations

21     with Mujahedin from the El Mujahedin Detachment that they had travelled

22     to Sarajevo on several occasions where they had meetings with Izetbegovic

23     and with several important people who were in the leadership of the

24     country during the war and that they met with the military leadership,

25     but they didn't name the persons involved specifically.
 1        Q.   And for purposes of clarification, Mr. Hamed, were you in at any

 2     point a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

 3        A.   I was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, but I can say that

 4     this was before the formation of the El Mujahedin Detachment.  When I

 5     left the Mujahedin groups that were billeted in Travnik and Mehurici,

 6     then a short time after that they formed they formed the El Mujahedin

 7     Detachment.

 8        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with a publication of President Izetbegovic

 9     called "The Islamic Declaration"?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Mr. Hamed, did you ever hear about a military unit called the

12     Bosanska Krajina Operations Group?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Mr. Hamed, you were asked a number of times by the Defence about

15     orders received by the foreign Mujahedin from Bosnian army generals.  Do

16     you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Can you simply tell us, sir, during the period when you were the

19     commander of the Mujahedin unit in Bijelo Bucje in the first half of 1993

20     how the cooperation was between your unit, the local units, and your

21     commander, Wahiuddin, who was in Mehurici?  Can you describe that

22     relationship for the Trial Chamber, please?

23        A.   When they had a plan, and I'm thinking about the B and H army

24     units, to attack any location which would be too hard for them, they

25     would come to me and they would ask me to take part in the same attack.

 1     I would then voice my willingness to do that, but under the condition

 2     that this be told to me by Wahiuddin, and then they would get in touch

 3     with him and he would approve that.  Then I would personally have to get

 4     in touch with Wahiuddin and hear from him personally that I was given a

 5     green light, because, frankly speaking, I didn't have too much confidence

 6     in the armija units.

 7        Q.   But say, sir, that they would get in touch with Wahiuddin, who

 8     were you referring to?

 9        A.   I'm thinking of several company commanders who were billeted in

10     Travnik.  I'm thinking of, for example, Vahid Dervisevic, one of the

11     commanders of the 317th Krajina Brigade.  I'm thinking of -- there were a

12     few, in any case, but I cannot recall the names.

13             MR. MUNDIS:  One moment, Your Honours.

14             The Prosecution has no further questions for the witness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

16             Judge?

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke to us, if I'm

19     not mistaken, about and intervention by General Alagic.  In fact, an

20     intervention by threats in order to prevent the Mujahedin destroying the

21     church at Guca Gora, and he succeeded you told us.  I would like to know,

22     to the best of your knowledge, whether commanders of Bosnian army units

23     intervened on other occasions to prevent criminal activities by the

24     Mujahedin.

25        A.   I don't know.

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Mr. Hamed, I have two sets of

 3     questions for you.  The first set of questions relates to the technical

 4     operations on the ground, and the reason I'm putting these questions to

 5     you is that I need to ascertain just how was the responsibility divided

 6     between the ABiH command and your command over your troops.

 7             I understand from your testimony yesterday and today that your

 8     involvement in combat operations would always begin -- or at least would

 9     frequently begin by a request made by the local ABiH commander to --

10     either to you or to Wahiuddin for assistance from the Mujahedin soldiers

11     to engage in a combat operation that the ABiH wanted to carry out.  So

12     the initiative was always -- or at least most frequently taken by the

13     ABiH.  And then your involvement would then depend on acceptance from

14     Wahiuddin, meaning that you would not engage in any combat operations

15     unless you had the green light from him.

16             Have I understood this correctly?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Then how was the operation normally planned?  Now

19     closely were the details arranged between you and the ABiH forces on the

20     technical level?  Can you clarify this a bit?

21        A.   Yes.  For the first steps we needed to reconnoiter the terrain

22     where the attack was supposed to be carried out.  So we as foreigners

23     were not as familiar with the terrain as the local people were.  So I

24     would pick a few men from my units who were able to communicate with the

25     local people, and then the other unit that comprised Bosniaks would also

 1     choose a few men, and then they would together carry out the

 2     reconnaissance of the terrain, and it would take maybe two or three days,

 3     maybe more, maybe less.  And then after that, if we needed some equipment

 4     or weapons that we were lacking we would take it from them.  We were also

 5     provided with food.

 6             Then we would agree when the attack would begin.  So there had to

 7     be an agreement.  They would not order us when to attack, but they would

 8     suggest a time for us, and we would accept that proposal.  In case their

 9     proposal did not suit us, then we would not participate in that attack.

10             Then we would set off together to attack, but us foreign fighters

11     would always be in the first strike.  They would mostly ask us for help

12     when they felt that they could not liberate an area or an elevation by

13     themselves, meaning that we were going first.  We would seize the

14     location.  Then we would continue with the attack, and then they would

15     secure and guard the locations that we had liberated.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you choose which route for your soldiers to

17     follow, or was that something that was also done in agreement?  What I

18     mean was that when you begin an operation, let's say you want to take

19     control over a mountain, then your soldiers might go either right or left

20     or go straight up, but who took the position -- who took the decision

21     to -- to choose the routes that your soldiers would follow?  Would that

22     be you or would that be done in agreement?

23        A.   This would be done in agreement, or the proposal would always

24     come from them because they were more familiar with the terrain than we

25     were.  And then after surveying or reconnoitering the terrain we would

 1     accept the proposal if it suited us too.  If it did not suit us, for

 2     example, the place where the attack would begin, we would give our

 3     proposal.  If they refused or rejected our proposal, then - they

 4     sometimes used to do that - then we would move to the conditions or

 5     terms.  Either the attack would be done the way we wanted it done or we

 6     would not participation in the action.  So in that case, they would

 7     accept our terms and the attack would be executed the way we planned and

 8     asked.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Then during the operation I suppose

10     you would have to act as commander quite independently in the action

11     itself.  When the attack physically began, then, I suppose, that you as a

12     commander would then direct your soldiers to attack this house or to

13     seize this valley in the sense that -- that at that point during the

14     operation to would be too difficult to enter into any negotiations and

15     agreement about the physical exercise of the operation, the carrying out

16     of the operation.  So my question to you is:  Once the operation was --

17     was started, would there then still be cooperation and negotiation

18     between the ABiH and you, or would you at that time be the commander of

19     your forces alone?

20        A.   That depended on whether an agreement was reached about that

21     attack or if we had set pre-conditions that they accepted.  If it was a

22     joint endeavour, then we would only go as far as we were told to go, that

23     we shouldn't go any further than that.  However, if it is an attack in

24     which we demanded that we play the main role, then we would capture the

25     location that they were interested in, but we would frequently go further

 1     on and they would follow.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  All right.  Subsequent to attacks, would you then

 3     report back to Wahiuddin or to the ABiH on the -- on the progress of the

 4     attack?  I mean, after the attack had been completed, then who would you

 5     report to?

 6        A.   I would first inform Wahiuddin, and then I would communicate by

 7     way of radio with the commanders of the units who took part in the same

 8     operation to see what next.  Should we withdraw, retreat, or is there a

 9     follow-up to this plan.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Now, suppose you -- or maybe I should

11     ask in a different way.  Did you ever during any of the operations that

12     you commanded become aware of irregularities committed by your own

13     troops?

14        A.   Yes, this did happen, on several occasions.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could you give one or two examples of such

16     irregularities, and also explain to the Chamber which actions you took?

17        A.   In 1993, when I was commander of a unit in Bijelo Bucje, we had

18     contact with Bosniak units regarding military activities, so that

19     frequently Bosniaks would come to see me who could speak Arabic.  One of

20     my soldiers, an Egyptian, Abu Handala, wanted to kill one of the leaders

21     of Bosniak units in Bijelo Bucje.  It is Zuhdija Adilovic.  He tried to

22     persuade me that we should do that, accusing him of allowing the Bosniaks

23     to drink alcohol, and Islam prohibits this.  He also accused him of

24     secretly collaborating with the HVO, of endeavouring to destroy Islam and

25     eliminate it from the hearts of Bosniak youth.  I didn't allow it, and

 1     this didn't happen.

 2             Another example I would choose dates back to 1995.  During an

 3     attack on Vozuca, at the beginning of the attack I led a group.  I was on

 4     the right flank or the right side of the small town, and in front of us

 5     was Vozuca.  From the middle of the attack until the end I led all the

 6     Mujahedin, because the main leader of that operation was wounded and he

 7     had to go back.  And I remember that a man appeared from a trench, a Serb

 8     soldier.  I assume he was about 45 years old.  And as he raised his

 9     rifle, he said that he wanted to surrender, and he begged us not to kill

10     him.

11             I did not allow the soldiers to shoot at him, and I told him that

12     everything would be okay, he just had to put his rifle on the ground and

13     to approach.  He did that.  And my intention was to save his life, but I

14     didn't know what to do with him because the battle was ongoing, and we

15     were still being shot at, and we still had to hide behind trees.

16             So I told him, "Everything will be okay.  Just stay by me."  He

17     cried, and he said -- he begged me, "Please don't kill me.  I have three

18     children."

19             I protected him as much as I could from the Mujahedin.  However,

20     my fighters attacked him physically, and I couldn't prevent it.  When

21     they saw that they couldn't kill him, then they said, "Let us at least

22     physically hurt him."  The soldier probably didn't trust me, and I don't

23     blame him for not trusting me.  Who would have trusted me in such

24     circumstances?  Not a single Serb soldier would have trust me if I were

25     to say to him, "Don't run away.  I'll spare your life."

 1             So I was busy, occupied with the shooting that we were exposed

 2     to, and there was the shooting coming from a wood, and he took advantage

 3     of my lack of attention and he fled, but he chose the wrong side.  He in

 4     fact ran towards another group of Mujahedin led by Abid Ash Shargi, a

 5     Saudi who took part in the attack as the commander of a group.

 6             I don't know what happened to him, but later, upon the completion

 7     of that operation, I learnt that the Mujahedin who were under the command

 8     of Abid Ash Shargi had killed him.  That is, that they had shot at him.

 9     And after that, a commander of mine, Abid, approached him and severed his

10     head.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you know if he was taken prisoner before he

12     was killed?

13        A.   They didn't take him prisoner.  They opened fire at him, because

14     this Serb soldier didn't stop running.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let's just move back a little bit to the violence

16     that your people administered to him while he was still with your group.

17     Did you ever take any action to reproach your men, to say that this is

18     not lawful to attack a prisoner?

19        A.   Could you please repeat the question?  There was an interruption,

20     so I didn't hear your whole question.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Sorry.  My question was if you ever raised the

22     incident again with your troops to reproach them for having hit the Serb

23     soldier while he was under your command, under your protection.

24        A.   I did everything I could at that point in time.  I stood between

25     the Serb soldier and a group of my fighters who were -- wanted to assault

 1     him.  I didn't dare, nor did I have the authority to take any steps

 2     against them, because I was the commander of a group during the attack,

 3     but I wasn't the overall commander of Zubeir's unit.  So this should

 4     have been done by the main commander.

 5             What I did was to inform my superior, Abu Zubeir, about the

 6     whole event, what they did, what I did to prevent it, but Abu Zubeir

 7     considered me to be wrong.  He felt that what I did was helping

 8     Christians, and he supported what my soldiers did.

 9             I also informed Sead Rekic [phoen] about this.  Sead Rekic was a

10     major and had a special unit within the 3rd Corps under the commands of

11     Sakib Mahmuljin, and he simply said that there was nothing he could do.

12             I also informed Sakib Mahmuljin personally about this event.  He

13     simply did not react to what I was saying.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Your answer to me begs the question of whether

15     your troops, and yourself, indeed, knew the laws of the war as they are

16     laid down in the Geneva Conventions and whether you were ready to abide

17     by these rules.  Did you recognise the Geneva Conventions in your combat

18     operations?

19        A.   I learnt a little about this, but let me tell you just one thing.

20     During that period of time, I was a bad person.  I engaged in bad

21     activities, and I can tell you that I wasn't really interested in the

22     things you just mentioned.  But there's one thing in my mind.  It is true

23     that I was a bad person, an evil person, and that I did some evil things,

24     but I wasn't aggressive.  So my position, even while I was the unit

25     commander, if I attack a particular location, I'm interested in that

 1     location alone.  I seek to spare the lives of my fighters and the lives

 2     on the opposite side, because I was taught in the bin Laden school in

 3     Afghanistan if you attack a nation, a group of people, and you surround

 4     them from all sides, they may be much weaker than you, but they will have

 5     to fight against you with all available means because that would be a

 6     matter of life and death.  And that is why I didn't like to do that.

 7             Whenever I attacked or took part in an operation against the army

 8     of Republika Srpska or the HVO, I gave them an hour and a half advance

 9     warning that we were marching.  So I would shoot at the targets and then

10     standstill with my soldiers for about an hour and a half.  And once I

11     knew that there was no one left in the village, I would enter the house

12     with a small group, although -- enter the village and the houses to see

13     whether there were any people left.  Then I would enter [as interpreted]

14     my other fighters to enter.  But I always said that they must the kill a

15     prisoner.  If they come across a wounded person, that they mustn't kill

16     him but that they should give him aid.  And I personally helped Croatian

17     soldiers and took them to a hospital.  I even threatened my own soldiers

18     and said, "Should such a thing happen, if I hear of a woman being raped,

19     that I would have to kill that fighter."  And that is precisely why I was

20     removed from the position of commander but -- because this kind of

21     approach did not suit my -- my bosses.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you, during your training in -- with the

23     al-Qaeda -- before your arrival to Bosnia, did training -- or information

24     about the Geneva Conventions -- was that a part -- was that a part of

25     your training, your military training by the al-Qaeda, or were the Geneva

 1     Conventions ever mentioned during the training?

 2        A.   It was mentioned during the training, but we called it

 3     differently.  We call -- we rejected it.  The main al-Qaeda cells

 4     rejected all these rules.  We called it Taguts [phoen], because al-Qaeda

 5     had quite different rules.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise for taking time into looking into

 7     these issues, but I think they're quite relevant.  So my question would

 8     be were the rules that you were taught at al-Qaeda, were they in

 9     conformity with, shall we say, the basic principles of the Geneva

10     Conventions, or were they completely different?

11        A.   They were quite the opposite, completely the opposite.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Let me then move to my second line of

13     questions, and this line of questions relate to the possibility of taking

14     actions towards or against people who had committed offences during the

15     combat operations.

16             You told us about a trial that you a part in because you had been

17     accused of something and a trial was then held against you conducted by

18     the Mujahedin.

19             My question was, first of all, what were you accused of at that

20     trial?

21        A.   I see.  What I told you about my rules during operations did not

22     suit the Mujahedin leaders in Bosnia.  I was arrested because of the

23     first attack on a mountain called Mescama near Travnik, near the village

24     of Bijelo Bucje where my unit was billeted.

25             During the attack I held a speech to all my soldiers and said

 1     that there must be no rapes; that anybody trying to escape should not be

 2     killed, even people shooting at a us from a distance we shouldn't shoot

 3     back, but we would just avoid being hit; that we must assisted wounded.

 4     And I took two wounded men to hospital.  This was one of the reasons why

 5     they held me before something like a military court, and Imad [phoen] El

 6     Misri asked me whether I was doing this to assist the Croats.  "Have we

 7     come to Bosnia to help the Croats, to save their lives, or to kill each

 8     and every one of them?"  So they demanded of me to kill everyone.  And

 9     when we attacked something that not a single person should be left alive,

10     even animals.  But I didn't do that.

11             The second reason why I was tried -- this was in secret and all

12     the members of the Mujahedin unit didn't know about it but only a group

13     of people linked to al-Qaeda.  My refusal to obey Wahiuddin's orders

14     meant for them that I was rejecting the orders of al-Qaeda, and they

15     considered this as an indication that I wanted to abandon them.

16             Let me add there was a small misunderstanding between me and the

17     leaders of the Mujahedin forces, so I was replaced from my duties.  I was

18     insulted, I felt offended, and I left them for a while and joined the

19     317th Krajina Brigade.

20             From -- in that short period I contacted only local people and

21     had no contact at all with the Mujahedin.  They felt that my intention

22     was to withdraw not only from the Mujahedin forces there but from

23     al-Qaeda which had sent me here, and that is why the decision was taken

24     to arrest me.

25             I must also add that I am still claiming that local people, and I

 1     am referring to the Bosniaks, didn't know who and what we were.  They

 2     didn't know that our coming to Bosnia was part of al-Qaeda's programme in

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They didn't know that we were linked to

 4     al-Qaeda.  They simply knew that we had come here to help the Muslims.

 5             I wish to tell everyone that the Bosniaks, no ordinary foreign

 6     Mujahedin, knew that I was linked to al-Qaeda.  They didn't know that the

 7     leaders of the Mujahedin forces were linked to al-Qaeda.  We sought to

 8     conceal our links to al-Qaeda.

 9             And the trial went as follows:  That I would be secretly

10     questioned.  I would be alone and only then we would talk about al-Qaeda

11     and why I was rejecting orders and withdrawing from al-Qaeda.  They tried

12     to persuade me that I should rejoin the Mujahedin in order for my life to

13     be spared.

14             There was also a public trial held -- I think it was in

15     Mehuric -- no, in Orasje where the Mujahedin camp was, and there were

16     quite a number of Bosniaks who watched this trial.  At that trial some

17     other reasons were given for my arrest so that these Bosniaks would not

18     discover the al-Qaeda activities in Bosnia.  Like, for instance, that I

19     had smuggled cigarettes, that I had come to Bosnia just to get in touch

20     with women, to drink alcohol, which is wrong.  And then I was sentenced

21     to 20 days of prison.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you at any point become aware of attempts

23     made by the ABiH to take action against crimes committed by Mujahedin

24     troops, for instance, looting or killing of prisoners or torture or

25     inhumane treatment?  Crimes that we have heard during this trial did

 1     occur and were probably committed at some occasions by Mujahedin troops

 2     and which were brought to the knowledge of the ABiH commanders.  My

 3     question is:  Was there any -- was there ever any action taken from the

 4     ABiH to discipline or perhaps prosecute members of the Mujahedin?

 5        A.   To the best of my knowledge this did not happen once during the

 6     war or after the war.  Allow me to tell you something.  After my arrest

 7     in 1997, but this is linked to your question, I tried to get in touch

 8     with certain responsible officials here in Bosnia, and I told them a

 9     hundred times about the crimes committed by the Mujahedin.

10             Policemen came to see me, intelligence officers, too, and I told

11     them about several killings of Serb and Croatian civilians.  I told them

12     where these crime had been committed, where and when and who were the

13     perpetrators of those crimes.  However, to this day I don't see that

14     anything has been done in concrete terms.  But let me go back to the time

15     of war.

16             In 1995, an operation was carried out at Vozuca and Ozren.

17     Participating in this operation were many Bosniak units.  The organiser

18     of that operation was the -- the generals of the 3rd and the 2nd Corps.

19     We foreign Mujahedin did participate in the attack.  Mujahedin Detachment

20     attacked Vozuca from Paljenik.  I was in Zubeir's unit at the time.

21     I'm talking about Zubeir's unit.  We attacked Vozuca from a mountain

22     called Gradic.  Gradic and Paljenik are two high mountains, and between

23     them in the valley is Vozuca, which means that we attacked from two

24     sides.

25             When I came down with my soldiers to Vozuca, I remember that it

 1     was deserted.  There was no one there.  I saw quite a number of foreign

 2     fighters, Mujahedin Detachments.  I also saw a large number of Bosniak

 3     units.  I was there with Sead Brkic.  He didn't participate in the

 4     attack, but he came from Zavidovici when the road was opened to Vozuca.

 5     And I had this meeting with him.  We were standing next to a check-point

 6     formed by the Mujahedin Detachment.  They formed it to prevent the

 7     participants in the attack to take war booty and especially weapons,

 8     except, of course, their own people.

 9             At that check-point there were two commanders of the Mujahedin

10     Detachment, the Egyptian El Mu'utaz El Misri, who carried out the attack

11     on -- at Paljenik, and Enver Sha'aban also.

12             While we were talking, these two Mujahedin leaders and myself and

13     Sead Brkic [phoen], I remember seeing two trucks going towards that

14     check-point, and they stopped there for inspection.  I didn't know where

15     the trucks were coming from, but later I learnt that they were coming

16     from Ozren, because most of the members of the Mujahedin Detachment were

17     already at Mount Ozren.

18             I noticed that one of those two trucks had blood dripping out of

19     it, and Sead Brkic saw this, Enver Sha'aban, and El Mu'utaz.  I was

20     curious to see what was in those two trucks, as they were covered with

21     canvas.

22             In the first truck there was large quantity of weapons, mostly

23     infantry weapons which the El Mujahedin Detachment had probably

24     confiscated at Ozren.  The second truck from which blood was dripping, I

25     saw quite a number of bodies of killed soldiers.  Some of them were

 1     wearing military uniforms, some were almost naked.  And I saw that these

 2     killed men had no heads.  I also noticed that among those corpses there

 3     were some heads, severed heads.  I can't tell you how many, but roughly

 4     20 or maybe a little less or a little more perhaps.

 5             I was watching Enver Sha'aban and El Mu'utaz El Misri, and I saw

 6     an expression of satisfaction on their faces.  They were smiling and

 7     watching those bodies coldly, indifferently.  Then I saw Sead Brkic's

 8     expression.  I saw that he was angry.  His expression had changed, and I

 9     thought to myself, Is Sead Brkic angry because of what we had seen in the

10     bloody truck, or had he changed because the Mujahedin Detachment did not

11     let his unit to take war booty, war bounty?

12             Then Enver Sha'aban and El Mu'utaz started a discussion in raised

13     voices and said, "You must remove this bloody truck straight away.  Don't

14     let the other soldiers see this."  And after that, he continued talking

15     to them, this Brkic, and he said why the Mujahedin did not allow his --

16     members of his unit to take part of the war booty, because they, too, had

17     participated in the attack.  And he said that without his unit the

18     Mujahedin would not have liberated Paljenik, and had we not been at

19     Gradic he would have done nothing at Paljenik.

20             I'm telling you this whole story to show that Sead Urkic was

21     aware of the fact that the Mujahedin had killed and slaughtered people.

22     Now, whether he undertook anything or not, I don't know.  Whether he took

23     any steps or not, I don't know.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Previous translation continues] ... your long

25     and detailed explanation.  My last question is:  If the Bosnian

 1     authorities, the ABiH commanders, had wanted to take any action against

 2     war crimes possibly committed by Mujahedin, would they, in your view,

 3     have been able to do so?

 4             Now, this is a question that you may not be able to answer, and

 5     if you don't -- can't answer it, then please tell me so, but if you know

 6     about discussions internally within the Mujahedin about possible

 7     reactions to an attempt by the ABiH commanders to discipline or perhaps

 8     prosecute crimes committed by the Mujahedin how the Mujahedin would have

 9     reacted to such an attempt.  If you know about this, I would be pleased

10     to know.

11        A.   All the I know -- or let me explain it differently.  It's

12     impossible that the B and H army, even though it wasn't formed properly,

13     that it would -- was not able to prevent just a handful of Mujahedin no

14     matter how many of them were there.  If there were 100, 200, 300, even if

15     there were a thousand of them, why would not the B and H army be able to

16     prevent them?

17             I know that we, the foreign Mujahedin, had something like

18     immunity from the police.  We enjoyed police immunity.  We had somebody's

19     support.  Someone was backing us.  I don't know who.  I mentioned in my

20     book several events which really do confirm that we were accepted here in

21     Bosnia with all the bad things that we did -- or, rather, the Mujahedin

22     did many bad things in public places.  The police would come to them not

23     to arrest them, but to ask them that they should not be doing this any

24     more.

25             For example, I would enter a coffee bar, cafe, where they are

 1     serving alcoholic drinks as well.  I would just demolish everything.  I'm

 2     not saying that I did this personally.  I'm just using it as an example,

 3     because many Mujahedin did that during the war.

 4             So I still committed a criminal act.  Somebody was supposed to

 5     prevent me.  Whether from the BH army, whether it was the police, the

 6     military police, somebody of the local people from this country should

 7     have done something.

 8             All I know is that as long as I was the unit commander in Bijelo

 9     Bucje in 1993, they would come to me, policemen, military policemen.  The

10     policemen wore insignia OG from Travnik.  And then they would say to me,

11     "Please, your soldiers did this, this, and this.  Can you please tell

12     them that they are not allowed to do that, they shouldn't do that, it's

13     not nice behaviour?  People would hate us."

14             So at the time my only conclusion was that even the police could

15     not do its work in relation to the foreign Mujahedin if they were

16     involved.

17             I also know about one Mujahedin who was in my unit in 1993 or

18     early 1994.  He fired from a firearm at a vehicle which belonged to the

19     international forces at the time.  It was actually the British Battalion,

20     the BritBat.  And I know that earlier he wounded several of those

21     soldiers, and he was arrested.  He was arrested by the local police and

22     spent about four months in detention.  But after those four months he was

23     released, no indictment was issued, and there was no prison sentence.  So

24     somebody worked to have him released.  And after that the man

25     disappeared.  So that means that he was given the opportunity to evade

 1     responsibility on condition that he was no longer to stay in Bosnia.

 2             I can cite one more example.  In 1994 in Zenica, a large number

 3     of Mujahedin lived in a village nine -- known by the name Olokov Polje

 4     [phoen].  The Mujahedin, many of them, about 20 men, were living there

 5     with their families in that village.  I know about one of them, a

 6     Palestinian who was known as Ebu Besir.

 7             In the middle of the town, in the centre of Zenica, he stopped a

 8     vehicle with the plates or insignia of the IFOR at that time, and under

 9     threat that he would shoot at them, he got them out of the vehicle and

10     confiscated the vehicle.  It was a vehicle like a small personnel

11     carrier.  It was a military week.  And he drove it in the centre of town,

12     and nobody could do anything about it.  The police saw it.  So this was

13     noted by the police.  And nobody was arrested because of that.

14             I know one thing, that he would always park that in front of

15     husband house in Olokov Polje.  I mean, if he had at least repainted the

16     vehicle, changed the colour of the vehicle so that it wouldn't be obvious

17     that it blocked to the international forces.  However, he left it exactly

18     the way it was.  He was really sure and had the confidence that are

19     nobody would do anything about it, or he knew that he was enjoying police

20     immunity.  I know that they sent about 50 policemen from Zenica to bring

21     him in.

22             I'm giving you this information that he told me himself, and I

23     also heard it from other Mujahedin.  You can imagine 50 police officers

24     going to arrest one single person.

25             When they reached his house, they knocked nicely as if they were

 1     guests.  So it's not treatment of a person who was supposed to be

 2     arrested but they came as guests.  He opened the door and he said, "What

 3     do you want from me?"  They looked at him, they stretched -- they pointed

 4     to the vehicle, and they said that the soldiers of the international

 5     forces complained that he had seized their vehicle and that they demanded

 6     the authorities -- that the authorities arrest the person and that the

 7     vehicle be returned to them.

 8             So they asked him to go with them to the police station in

 9     Zenica.  He responded impolitely, and he said, "Let me show you

10     something."  He went into the house and came out in a few seconds with a

11     rifle in his hand, and they all hid wherever they were able to hide,

12     behind anything, whether it was some kind of object or a car.

13             In any case, what I want to say is that those 50 policemen

14     returned to Zenica, and they were allegedly not able to arrest him.  So

15     there's the question of why.  I believe that they were enjoying police

16     immunity and that they had protection.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated] [indiscernible].

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a few questions for you, sir.  Now when the

19     Prosecutor asked you questions this afternoon, he started off by asking

20     you if you ever became a member of the El Mujahid Detachment at any

21     stage.  Your answer was that you were a member before the El Mujahid

22     Detachment was formed.  Did I hear you correctly?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question to you is:  After it was formed, did

25     you ever become a member?

 1        A.   No, I was not a member of the detachment, but Zubeir's unit and

 2     the Mujahedin Detachment were cooperating.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, let me ask you for clarification about

 4     a point that you discussed.  Yesterday you were shown a clip of the

 5     church in Guca Gora with people, soldiers, inside.  Remember that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I just want to confirm with you that am I

 8     right that I heard you say yesterday that the condition in which that

 9     church was as it was being shown in the clip, it was before it was

10     destroyed?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, today you were asked a question by

13     Judge Lattanzi, and in her question she mentioned that the general who

14     stopped the destruction of that church succeeded.  I'm not quite clear.

15             Was the church successfully saved from destruction or was the

16     church destroyed?

17        A.   It was saved from -- or spared from destruction.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So when you said yesterday that you were seeing

19     the church on the clip was before its destruction, what did you mean?

20        A.   I meant that it was from the inside, the furniture.  When I saw

21     it the church was neat.  And also in the footage that was shown to me by

22     Mr. Mundis was neat.  After that, the church was destroyed from the

23     inside.  I'm thinking about the objects and the furniture that was inside

24     the church.  When I say that the church was spared from destruction after

25     the conversation with Mehmed Alagic, it means that it was spared from

 1     being blown up.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The building was spared.  That's what you meant.

 3        A.   Yes, just had building.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That explains it.

 5             Today you -- I don't know whether this is maybe an interpretation

 6     matter, but I heard in the interpretation that -- a word called Taguts

 7     was used.  I just wanted to find out what Taguts are.

 8        A.   Yes.  The Tagud [phoen] rules referred to any rules that are not

 9     in keeping with Islamic rules.  Actually, what is being said is that they

10     would only respect Islamic rules, regardless of whether it was in

11     conditions of war or not.

12             As for the other rules, even though they may be valid, they would

13     not be accepted and would -- would not wish to know about them.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You told us that you were tried for allegedly

15     saving people and ordering your soldiers not to kill prisoners of war,

16     and other things.  Are you aware of any other soldiers in the

17     El Mujahedin who were prosecuted by the El Mujahid court for any crimes

18     or irregularities that they may have committed?

19        A.   I know only about the case of Iraqi Abduladim Maqtouf.  He was

20     sentenced before the state court.  I don't recall exactly whether it was

21     in 2005.  But in any case, I think that the court did not reach a real

22     decision or proper decision about him, because this was a person who was

23     not guilty.  From 2003, I gave several statements about the crime for

24     which Abduladim Maqtouf was convicted.  So they did not convict the

25     person who actually perpetrated the crime.  They convicted the person who

 1     had nothing to do with the crime.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, but that was a state court.  It was not an

 3     El Mujahid court, an al-Qaeda court.

 4        A.   Oh, yes.  Excuse me.  Then I misunderstood what you said.  You're

 5     thinking about al-Qaeda and its courts.

 6             I think that there were several other men who were detained.  In

 7     al-Qaeda rules, any soldier who belongs to al-Qaeda, and even if he does

 8     not belong to al-Qaeda but is among al-Qaeda people, if he does something

 9     that does not suit them, they would punish him.  If he does something

10     major that al-Qaeda could not overlook, then he would have to be

11     executed.

12             I know that there were two or three other people who were

13     detained, imprisoned.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  During the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   Yes, during the war.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And very briefly, are you able to tell us

17     what they were accused of having committed?

18        A.   I don't know myself specifically what.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  I still have a few

20     questions.  I realise we have gone beyond quarter past.  I'm not quite

21     sure how long the questions from the counsel is going -- are going to be.

22     Is it possible that we could go on for a little long while -- a little

23     while longer, or shall we adjourn to tomorrow?  Are you likely to be

24     long?

25             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I believe the Prosecution

 1     will have anywhere from three to five questions, which hopefully if we

 2     can get brief answers to shouldn't take too long.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic?

 4             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Same applies to me, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'll ask that the interpreters please bear with

 6     us.  Maybe we might just finish today.

 7             You said you were sentenced to 20 days imprisonment for what you

 8     were tried for by the al-Qaeda court.  Were you in prison for 20 days?

 9        A.   I think I spent a bit longer there.  Maybe 27 days.  I was not

10     freed from prison, actually.  I escaped.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I would like to clear one other point.

12     This is my last point that I would like to clear.

13             In the questions that were put to you by Judge Harhoff, I heard

14     you say that if -- if there were 300 or even a thousand El Mujahid --

15     Mujahedin soldiers, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina should and could

16     have been able to prevent them or to publish them or to contain their

17     crimes.  Did I hear you correctly to say that?

18        A.   Yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I also heard you say, for instance, that the

20     military police could not -- and this may be a question of

21     interpretation.  What I heard was could not do anything with crimes that

22     were being committed, and you gave as one of the examples the soldier who

23     confiscated a car, and you said 50 police went to his house and they

24     could not do anything.

25             Is it that they could not do anything, or was it because they

 1     didn't want to do anything?

 2        A.   When I said that the B and H army was able to prevent the

 3     Mujahedin from doing what will they did during the war, I always am

 4     thinking about the high-ranking officers.  I'm thinking of the political

 5     and military leadership.

 6             When I mention police or military police, that they couldn't do

 7     anything in relation to the Mujahedin, I said that the police seemed not

 8     to have the authority to do anything against the Mujahedin.  And what I

 9     meant to say by that is that those who were in the military leadership

10     did not allow the police to do its work in relation to the Mujahedin.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That concludes my questions.

12             Any questions arising from the questions by the Bench?

13     Mr. Mundis.

14             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just a few.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

16        Q.   In response to a question from the Presiding Judge, you indicated

17     that there may have been a small number of other cases heard before the

18     Mujahedin court or courts, and my question to you, sir, is do you recall

19     the approximate time period of those other small number of cases that you

20     were aware of?

21        A.   This was in 1992.

22        Q.   Sir, you also mentioned in response to a question by

23     Judge Harhoff several times in explaining an answer an individual named

24     Sead Brkic.  Can you tell us, sir, what unit Sead Brkic commanded?

25        A.   Not Sead Brkic but Sead Urkic.  Sead Urkic, or from what he told
 1     me, was a major, and he was heading a special unit in the 3rd Corps.  He

 2     was close to General Sakib Mahmuljin.  And his unit always participated

 3     in the attacks in which we participated, the Zubeir unit.

 4        Q.   And this instance where you saw these two trucks at a

 5     check-point, do you recall approximately when that was?

 6        A.   Which area are you thinking?  Are you thinking of the time maybe,

 7     if it was light or dark or -- what are you thinking of exactly?

 8        Q.   If you can give us the approximate day or month or year when --

 9     when you were at this check-point where you saw these two trucks.

10        A.   This was in 1995, and I really do not remember the date, the

11     month, but I think that it was before the end of 1995.

12        Q.   And would it help had you, sir, if you could put it into the

13     context of any military operations that you may have been involved in in

14     1995?  Was it before any combat operation that you remember, or after any

15     particular combat operation?

16        A.   This was after the Paljenik and Gradic locations were captured.

17     The whole Vozuca was occupied then.

18        Q.   Mr. Hamed, in response to a question from Judge Harhoff, you made

19     reference to -- or you were asked about the Geneva Conventions, and I'm

20     just wondering, sir, if at any time when you were a soldier or a fighter

21     in the war in Bosnia if you ever saw a Bosnian language publication

22     called "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter."

23        A.   I never saw that, no.

24        Q.   And my final question to you, sir, again in response to it a

25     question from the Bench, you answered that the leaders of the Mujahedin,

 1     the foreign Mujahedin, attempted to conceal their links to al-Qaeda, and

 2     my question really is, if you know, how many of the foreign Mujahedin

 3     were al-Qaeda members?  Was it all of them, some of them, a few of them,

 4     a majority of them?

 5        A.   No.  It was a minority of them.  Mostly this refers to people who

 6     were in important positions in the Mujahedin forces.  And it also refers

 7     to a small number of fighters who also participated in the fighting in

 8     Afghanistan.

 9        Q.   Can you be more specific, sir, in terms of numbers when you say a

10     small number of people?  Can you -- can you be more specific as to how

11     many of the foreign Mujahedin were -- were al-Qaeda members?

12        A.   I'm not able to specify, because we ourselves as al-Qaeda members

13     cannot easily know about each other unless a common assignment is at

14     hand.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hamed.

16             MR. MUNDIS:  The Prosecution has no further questions.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

18             Madam Vidovic.

19                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I only have a few questions for you.

21     During your testimony, you mentioned seeing a person, Abid Ash Shargi,

22     killing a Serb soldier.  Did I understand you correctly?

23        A.   I didn't see it, but I was told by his soldiers that he slit the

24     throat of the Serb after he was killed.

25        Q.   Abid Ash Shargi was actually the deputy of Abu al Zubeir.  Am I
 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes, you're right.

 3        Q.   Let me now ask you something about the corpses that you said you

 4     saw in the trucks.  You remember that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   You don't know whether those people were killed in battle or were

 7     captured and then killed.  Am I right?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  Yes, you're right.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that those trucks were not something that

10     you saw in the El Mujahid camp or anywhere near it even?

11        A.   No.  I know that these two trucks were heading towards

12     Zavidovici.  I don't know where.

13        Q.   Do you know what the 13th kilometre is?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you know where the El Mujahedin camp was during this period?

16        A.   Yes, I know, but I never went there.

17        Q.   Do you know the location roughly?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Will you tell us how far these trucks were from the camp in terms

20     of distance?

21        A.   I assume about 15 or so kilometres.  I see.

22        Q.   Did I understand you correctly when you mentioned Sead Urkic that

23     you said that he did not take part in that operation?

24        A.   He took part as a commander.  He was issuing orders to his units

25     from Zavidovic, similar to what Zubeir was doing.

 1             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, briefly I have to show

 2     this witness a document.  351, please.

 3             Your Honours, this is page 2 of the English version in this

 4     document, and the relevant passage starts from the fifth line, roughly,

 5     of this text.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]... at 351.

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that will be the right

 8     page.  Yes, we see it on the screen now, Your Honour.  It is the fifth

 9     line from the top, and it starts with the words "My superior ordered

10     this."

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]... screen is not the

12     same document as we have at 351 in our file.

13             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It's 353.

14     I asked for 353.  This is the English translation of that document, the

15     one we see on the ELMO.  It may be an interpretation error.

16        Q.   Witness, will you please read this.  Do you agree, Witness, that

17     you're telling us here about the conversation that you had with

18     Mr. Urkic?

19        A.   Yes, I agree.

20        Q.   Let me quote for you.  You said:  "My superior ordered this, and

21     I wouldn't listen to anyone but him.  'You have to go into attack

22     immediately.'  Because of these words of his I felt insulted, so I

23     decided to respond in the same measure and said I understood but, 'I

24     wouldn't take orders from you or from your Sakib, nor from anyone but

25     from Abu Zubeir.'"

 1             You go on and call Sakib and tell him there will be no attack

 2     without the presence of the medical unit.

 3             So let me ask you once again.  Didn't you show here your

 4     relationship towards the army?

 5        A.   That is true.

 6        Q.   You were not listening to orders from the army on any occasion.

 7        A.   We need to know the circumstances under which these words were

 8     uttered.

 9        Q.   My question is is this true, and the witness says yes.

10             Witness, you spoke to us today about the authorities of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina and their reaction and you mentioned immunity, but in

12     fact, you know nothing about that.

13        A.   No.  I was just -- I was just thanking you.

14        Q.   So you're just speculating, aren't you?  You're not aware of

15     these facts.  You were not present at such meetings.

16        A.   You are not right.  If I didn't know what was going on during the

17     war, I certainly wouldn't be here.  If I didn't know what was happening

18     during the war, the American FBI would not come to talk to me.  If I

19     don't know anything, it's best for me to leave immediately.

20        Q.   Witness, please.  Were you present at any meeting at which

21     immunity for the Mujahedin was discussed?

22        A.   I'm telling you about my conclusions on the basis of everything

23     that was happening.  So if I am mistaken, if I do something wrong and

24     nobody punishes me, it means that someone is protecting me.  I myself

25     don't know who that is.  I would like to know who was responsible for

 1     this, because we did all we did and without any punishment.

 2             I didn't name anyone.  I didn't say such-and-such a person was at

 3     fault.  I just said that somebody was protecting us.

 4        Q.   One more question.  You told Their Honours why you were taken to

 5     the military court and why you were punished.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   But you didn't tell us the whole truth, did you?

 8        A.   I'm -- if I'm answering one question, do I need to repeat half of

 9     what I wrote in my book?  Of course I try to answer questions as briefly

10     as possible.  I know Their Honours have copies of my book.  If you need

11     more information about a particular event, why don't you look it up in my

12     book?

13        Q.   Let me ask you just one more question in this connection.

14     Actually, you were put on trial, among other things there, because you

15     had assaulted a young girl and had sexual intercourse with her, and that

16     is what Dr. Abu Haris reprimanded you for.

17        A.   That is not true, and I explained this in my book.  If this was

18     so, I wouldn't have mentioned it in my book.  Why am I revealing this in

19     my book?

20             I see that you are not aware of what went on during the war.

21     Forgive me, but I was here from the beginning of the war until the end.

22     Perhaps you spent your time in your own home.

23        Q.   Would you agree that the father of that child reported the event

24     to Dr. Abu Haris?

25        A.   That is not true.  I don't know what child you're talking about.

 1     I did have a girlfriend, but that wasn't a child.

 2             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as this is an

 3     important issue, D357, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we go to D357, do you -- what do you want

 5     to do with D353?

 6             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise.  Could

 7     this be admitted into evidence, please?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D353 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 9     given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 347.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My.

12             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   Witness, look at page 06050628.  A very small segment somewhere

14     around the middle of this book when you tell -- when you're telling us

15     about the conversation with Abu El Haris during the trial, you say:  "He

16     intentionally or unintentionally insulted me when he said that I had an

17     affair as well as sex with a child."

18             That's what I am talking about, Witness.

19        A.   Of course I know what I put down in my book.  I wrote that text

20     under the heading "I Have Nothing With Amra."  And then I went on to

21     explain the real reason for my arrest and to deny that this had happened.

22        Q.   In other words, you're telling us that this didn't happen.

23        A.   Exactly.  That's what I'm trying to explain here.

24             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Let me ask you another question, Mr. Abdali [phoen], because you

 1     are Mr. Abdali.  Is that true?

 2        A.   I think you started insulting me.  I don't see any reason for you

 3     to call me by a name that is not mine, that it doesn't suit me, because

 4     you read it in my book.  So don't use that name.  Please look at my

 5     documents and see whether it says Ali or Abdali.

 6        Q.   Witness, you were born and you lived and you grew up and came to

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina with the name Abdali instead of Ali Ahmad Hamad.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             MR. MUNDIS:  We've gone well beyond the scope of questions put by

10     Your Honours to this witness.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic?

12             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the need has arisen in

13     connection with your questions for me to focus once again on the

14     credibility of this witness, and that is my reasoning.  If I may -- I may

15     continue.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the need has arisen for you

17     to insult me, and I am no longer prepared to answer questions from the

18     Defence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second, Mr. Hamed.

20             Madam Vidovic, the need may have arisen for you to ask questions,

21     but I think you should stay within the questions arising -- you must ask

22     questions arising from the questions asked by the Bench.  I'm not quite

23     sure I understand how the line of questioning that you are now

24     undertaking relates to what the questions -- what the Bench asked, unless

25     you are able to explain it.

 1             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it doesn't stem from

 2     your questions, and I will stop my cross-examination there.  There are

 3     other witnesses.

 4             Thank you.  I have no more questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Madam Vidovic, what do you

 6     want to do with D357?

 7             MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would

 8     like to tender it into evidence.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             This now brings us to the conclusion of -- I beg your pardon.

11     The document 357 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

12     exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 348.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Hamed, thank you.  Let me just say that this brings us to the

16     conclusion of your testimony in this court.  May I, on behalf of the

17     Trial Chamber, thank you for availing yourself to come and testify.  I

18     hope you -- you've -- you feel you have made a contribution to the trial

19     here by coming here, and you are now excused.  You may stand down.  Once

20     again, thank you very much for coming to testify.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have now come to the conclusion of the

24     proceedings pursuant to Rule 4 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of

25     the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.  We will

 1     not be sitting again tomorrow as was anticipated.

 2             May the Chamber take this opportunity to gratefully acknowledge

 3     the assistance of the Bosnia and Herzegovina State Court, and in

 4     particular Ms. Medjita Kreso [phoen], the President of the court;

 5     Mr. Tarik Abdulhak [phoen] from Registry; and all other state court

 6     officers for enabling a smooth operation of this hearing.

 7             While I'm at the point of thanking the state court officials, may

 8     I also add that I would like to give Chamber's gratitude to all the

 9     people who contributed towards the smooth running of the operation.  This

10     includes the security police from Bosnia and Herzegovina and every -- and

11     all other people who were involved.  I may not be able to mention them

12     all, but you are all thanked, and thank you so much.

13             That concludes the hearing.  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.44 p.m.