1 Thursday, 11 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the

15 courtroom. Laurie Sartorio and Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution, assisted

16 by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

20 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing General Rasim

21 Delic, with Lejla Gluhic, our case manager.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Good morning, sir. Could you please make the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

1 WITNESS: FADIL IMAMOVIC

2 [The witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

4 Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: My colleague, Ms. Sartorio, will be taking this

6 witness.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

9 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

10 Q. Good morning, sir. Would you please state your full name, and

11 give us your current occupation and the city and country in which you

12 live.

13 A. My name is Fadil Imamovic. I'm a civil servant right now. I live

14 in Sarajevo.

15 Q. Now, sir, in 1993 to 1995, did you hold any positions in the Army

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina? And if so, would you please tell the Chamber about

17 those positions and the time period in which you served?

18 A. Between 1993 and 1995, or rather 1996, I held various posts in the

19 BH Army. I was the commander of the 311th Light Brigade until October

20 1994, and then I was the assistant commander for Security in the 35th

21 Division of the BH Army, first in the Bosna Operations Group, which was

22 the predecessor of the 35th Division.

23 Q. And how long were you in that post?

24 A. I was the assistant commander for Security in the 35th Division

25 from October 1994 until mid-September 1995.

1 Q. Now I'd like to focus --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Sartorio please switch off the

3 microphone while the witness is speaking.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please switch off the microphone while

5 the witness is speaking.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Every time?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That looks like that's the request.

8 MS. SARTORIO: I'll just lean over the podium, then.

9 Q. Sir, I'd like to focus your attention right now on your position

10 as assistant commander for Security in the 35th Division in the summer of

11 1995.

12 Before that, though, could you please tell us what the function or

13 purpose was of the security division -- of the 35th Division, or was it

14 called the Security Department, or what was the name of it?

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just interrupt?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Certainly.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: The issue of your switching on and off your mic is

18 recurrent, because when somebody next to you is typing, the noise is

19 terrible, and even for us as we listen to it, so I don't know how that can

20 be resolved. Maybe your case manager or the senior trial attorney can

21 move to the other table or somehow -- I don't know how to solve it, but

22 that's the problem. Thanks.

23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you for explaining that, Your Honour, and I

24 will do it and we'll see how it goes, and then I'll ask my senior trial

25 attorney to move if it's a problem. Thank you.

1 Q. Do you remember the question, sir? I asked you to tell us what

2 the function or purpose was of the Security division or department of the

3 35th Division. Thank you.

4 A. The purpose of the Security Department in the 35th Division was

5 the same as in other commands of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 taking various measures to ensure the security of the commands and units

7 in the field and at command posts, coordinating the work of the military

8 police. It was, in fact, a technical organ of the commander that dealt

9 with security-related issues.

10 Q. Now, could you tell us how the Security Department of the 35th

11 Division was organised and also if there where security departments or

12 organs of other battalions and brigades, how they are organised and how it

13 all works, please?

14 A. The commander of the 35th Division had his assistant for Security,

15 who set up the department, with four of his associates, officers. In the

16 brigade commands, the commander again had his assistant for Security.

17 They had two or three associates. At the battalion level, there was also

18 the assistant commander for Security, and he would have one or two

19 associates, depending on the actual situation.

20 Q. Now, on a daily basis, I'd like you to tell us what your regular

21 duties might be and also the interaction that you had with the other

22 assistant commanders for Security at the battalion and brigade levels.

23 A. My daily duties began with the morning briefing to the commander,

24 but that was not every morning. And then during the day, we'd process the

25 information that had come in, and we'd submit this information to our

1 superiors, or we would visit the battalion commands, the brigade commands

2 to exchange information with the assistant commanders there or officers

3 who worked in that area, that sphere. We'd also coordinate and provide

4 technical assistance to the military police operating there in the field.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned during the day you would process information

6 that had come in. Can you tell us, what were the sources of the

7 information that the security organ received in order to process the

8 information?

9 A. Well, the sources of information varied. Information came from

10 the field. We gathered information ourselves.

11 Q. So your associates would go out and actually gather intelligence

12 information, or did you work in conjunction with the Intelligence

13 Department?

14 A. Well, some information was received from the intelligence organ.

15 We exchanged information with them, anything that was of interest to us

16 that had to do with security measures to be implemented in the units,

17 since the intelligence organ gathered information about the enemy.

18 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you in a few minutes about the specifics

19 about the reporting procedures and exactly how reports were made and where

20 they were sent, but first I'd like you to just give us an example of what

21 might be a security issue that you would receive information about, and

22 then explain what you would do -- what the next step you would take after

23 receiving that information.

24 A. Well, just to give you an example, if we received information that

25 there is a large number of people who were absent without any

1 justification in a unit, we'd get this kind of information from the

2 security organ in the battalion or the brigade. Again, everything would

3 go through the Security Service channels. We would then process this

4 information in the Security Service at the 35th Division level, and then

5 this information would be relayed to the commander of the 35th Division.

6 And then again the security organ in the 3rd Corps would be also informed

7 about that. That was along the technical channels, so these were our

8 responsibilities.

9 Q. And then once reports went up to the 35th Division commander, and

10 just for the record, could you identify who that was during the summer of

11 1995 when you were the assistant commander for Security?

12 A. The commander of the 35th Division was Colonel Fadil Hasanagic.

13 Q. Could you also, for the record, tell us who your co-part was or

14 who was the assistant commander for Security in the 3rd Corps?

15 A. In the period when I became the assistant commander for Security,

16 the assistant commander for Security in the 3rd Corps was Ramiz Dugalic.

17 He was succeeded by --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the second name?

19 A. And then in the summer or rather in September, it was Agan

20 Haseljic.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. And again we'll get to the --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Are you going to ask -- the

23 interpreters asked that the witness be asked to repeat the second name of

24 the first person. Did you hear that?

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.

1 Q. Sir, could you repeat the second name of the first person that you

2 talked about, the assistant commander for Security in the 3rd Corps?

3 A. Ramiz Dugalic.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, it's the second person who

5 was named.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Well, the first person I see is "Fadil Hasanagic"

7 and then "Ramiz Dugalic," and --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, it's the second assistant

9 commander, the one who took over from Ramiz Dugalic.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell us, sir, who took over for Ramiz Dugalic again?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just start all over again, because all these

13 names are confused. Just start all over again on the names. Link the

14 name to the position and the division or the corps.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. In terms of the 35th Division, would you please repeat and slowly

17 say the names so they can take it down in the transcript, the commander of

18 the 35th Division in the summer of 1995?

19 A. Colonel Fadil Hasanagic.

20 Q. And in the 3rd Corps, who was the commander of the 3rd Corps?

21 A. Brigadier Sakib Mahmuljin.

22 Q. And in the 3rd Corps, in the Security Department or organ of the

23 3rd Corps, who was the assistant commander of that organ?

24 A. In the summer of 1995, the assistant commander was Ekrem

25 Alihodzic. He was succeeded in late summer by Agan Haseljic.

1 Q. Now, did you also work in conjunction -- I believe you mentioned

2 earlier that you did have some relationship with the military police

3 units. Can you explain how that relationship or interaction worked?

4 A. The security organ had, as one of its responsibilities, to

5 coordinate and direct the work of the military police in technical terms,

6 but it had no right to decide how to deploy the military police. So to

7 train, to assist in the training of the military police, and in the

8 performance of its day-to-day duties.

9 Q. But if there was a security issue in the field, would you work

10 together with the military police to solve the security problem?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now I'd like to ask you about reports.

13 When you received information on, say, a particular day, did you

14 prepare a report? And if so, tell us the path that the report would take

15 after you prepared it.

16 A. All the events of any interest were put in a report that was

17 prepared by the security organ, and then this report was sent over a

18 special channel of communication to the security organ in the 3rd Corps.

19 Now, as for all important events, events of any interest, we

20 informed the commander of the 35th Division of all that in order to

21 facilitate his decision-making.

22 Q. Now, did you also send a copy of the report to the commander of

23 the 35th Division, in addition to sending it to the security organ of the

24 3rd Corps?

25 A. From time to time. Mostly it was just an informative report, but

1 the commander of the 35th Division was informed through regular briefings

2 or in other ways.

3 Q. And can you tell us what would constitute, in your opinion, events

4 of interest, as you put it at line 21?

5 A. Well, any events that created the disturbance in the normal life

6 or work of the units in the field; desertion, violations of military

7 discipline, if a crime was committed or a disciplinary infraction, things

8 like that.

9 Q. Would opposition soldiers being taken captive or being taken as

10 prisoners of war be one of those important events that you would report?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, in terms of the actual physical submission of reports, how

13 was that done? Did you use a certain system, a packet system, or any

14 other type of system? Could you please tell the Judges how reports were

15 transmitted?

16 A. The reports that were sent up the technical chain to the security

17 organ in the 3rd Corps were sent using encrypted packet radio, or we

18 sometimes sent it by courier, depending on our actual capabilities. But

19 in most cases, we used packet communications.

20 Q. And did you experience any transmission problems to the extent

21 that you felt that it was becoming to a point that you couldn't relay your

22 reports?

23 A. Well, given the circumstances, it was wartime, sometimes it was

24 difficult to submit the reports, communications would be down, and we

25 would then have to send a courier. So there were those extraordinary

1 circumstances from time to time.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.

3 May the witness be shown P02110.

4 Q. Sir, do you see this document in front of you on the screen?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us what this document is, please?

7 A. This is a report about the combat operations that were carried

8 out. It contains the information from the operations report.

9 Q. Is this one of your -- considered one of your regular daily

10 reports that you submitted?

11 A. Well, it might be.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Could the witness -- well, there's only one

13 page in the B/C/S -- the second page in English.

14 Q. Sir, is that your name at the end of the document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So is it likely that this was one of your reports, if your name is

17 at the end of it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And back to the first page in English. Would you look at the

20 date? I believe it appears to be a typo to me, but could you tell me what

21 the date is? It says: "May 27th, 2995". Is that incorrect?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: "2995"?

23 MS. SARTORIO: Well, That's what my translation shows in English,

24 Your Honour, but I -- I'm sorry, excuse me, I'm sorry. That's my -- up

25 top. I'm sorry. It is 1995.

1 Q. Would you agree with me the date is the 27th of May, 1995, sir?

2 A. I assume it is.

3 Q. And this report appears to be going to the 3rd Corps Security

4 Service Department?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And, sir, would you know where the source of the information for

7 this report was obtained?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the question?

9 MS. SARTORIO:

10 Q. Would you know where the source of the information for this report

11 was obtained?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was obtained? The source was obtained or the

13 information was obtained.

14 MS. SARTORIO: The information that's contained in the report,

15 does he know where it came from.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. Does he --

17 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- know what the source of this information was,

19 full stop.

20 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. Could Madam

22 Prosecutor first establish what kind of information we're talking about,

23 what section of the document, and then go on and ask further questions?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

1 Q. Sir, could we turn to the second page in English again, and it's

2 only one page in B/C/S, and I would ask the witness to look at the last

3 paragraph, please, starting with: "The Chetniks ..." and it discusses --

4 the last sentence says:

5 "32 of them are from the El Mudjahid Detachment."

6 I'm trying to asking you if this is one of your reports, which it

7 purports to be since your name is at the end, where would you -- where

8 would the information have come from that you put into this report? Were

9 there logbooks, were there other matters kept at the subunits?

10 A. I assume that this report was drafted by one of my associates and

11 that he obtained this information through the exchange of information with

12 the operations organ, because this contains mostly information from the

13 operations organ or officers -- officer from the 35th Division. Since

14 there are no events that are relevant for security, except for the number

15 of wounded and -- well, except for the number of wounded, that would be

16 the only piece of information that would be of interest to us.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, the Prosecution requests that this

18 document be admitted in evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 574.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness --

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Madam Sartorio, I would like to

25 take this opportunity to tell you that you have to speak a bit more slowly

1 and wait for the interpreters to finish interpreting everything that is

2 being said. Thank you.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 May the witness be shown P02414.

5 Q. Sir, can you tell us what this document is?

6 A. I can't see the entire document.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Could we show the witness the second page so he may

8 see it, and also for the English version so that the Court -- it's the

9 third page of the document in English.

10 Q. Sir, this is not your signature on the last page, is it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But it has your name typed; correct?

13 A. Yes, but it was probably signed by one of my associates.

14 Q. And would that be signed on your behalf?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at -- under section 3 of this document,

17 which is page 2 of the English. It's number 3. And tell us what that --

18 it's titled "Situations in the Commands, Units and Institutions of the

19 Army." At the end of that paragraph, it discusses training, joint

20 training between the El Mudjahedin Detachment and the 328th Mountain

21 Brigade; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it also mentions psychological training. Could you tell us

24 what that means?

25 A. Well, that's the kind of training that mostly boiled down to

1 religious education and measures to build trust between the members of the

2 El Mudjahid Detachment and the 328th Brigade.

3 Q. From whom would an order come that would permit or order joint

4 training? Where would that order have to come from?

5 A. I didn't see any such order, but I assume that it would have had

6 to come from the commander of the 35th Division, but I cannot claim that

7 or confirm.

8 Q. Now, if you look on the first page of the document, back to the

9 first page, it mentions daily report, and it says:

10 "We are forwarding the daily report on security-relevant events

11 and information in the 35th Division area of responsibility."

12 So this would be an example of one of your daily reports; is

13 that -- is that what this is?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this document be admitted

16 in evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 575.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MS. SARTORIO:

22 Q. Now, sir, in addition to daily reports, did you also submit other

23 types of reports, special reports, if certain events occurred?

24 A. Yes, if there were any events that warranted such urgent interim

25 reports.

1 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness now be shown P02088. And if we may

2 go to the second page in English so we may see the signature, please.

3 There's no signature, actually.

4 Q. But on the Bosnian document, sir, is that your signature?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So if you go back to the first page in English, please, is this an

7 example of one of the interim reports that you would send, in addition to

8 your daily reports?

9 A. This is not a report. It is a cover letter accompanying physical

10 evidence about an event that had security implications.

11 Q. Thank you. And the substance of this letter, would you please

12 tell the Judges what the substance of this letter was?

13 A. This is a cover letter for the video-recordings of the desecration

14 of the Orthodox cemetery in the village of Curici in the Zavidovici

15 Municipality. The cemetery was desecrated by members of the El Mujahedin

16 unit. So we have the recordings, the official records made by the

17 security organs who were actually there on the scene.

18 Q. Do you know or are you aware or did you hear whether anything --

19 any response was made to this letter and the attaching documents? In

20 other words, was an investigation conducted?

21 A. Well, I cannot confirm that, but it is possible that somebody may

22 have been prosecuted for this. But I cannot confirm that.

23 Q. If there was an order that came down for some type of action to be

24 taken, would you have been notified -- would your organ have been notified

25 of this?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And to your knowledge, you never received a response to this?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. This is

5 extremely leading question.

6 MS. SARTORIO: I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.

7 Q. To your knowledge, sir, did you ever receive a response to this

8 letter with the attaching information?

9 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, we ask this document be admitted in

11 evidence, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 576.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like the witness to now be shown P02370. And

17 if we may go to the last page of the document so that we can see the

18 signature.

19 Q. Sir, is this another document that appears to have come from you

20 to the 3rd Corps Command?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And can you explain briefly to the Court what the substance was of

23 the discussion about -- within the document, in terms of movement of

24 members of the 328th Brigade?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go to that discussion, Madam Sartorio, I

1 just want to get clarification here.

2 I'm looking at the last page of both the B/C/S and the English.

3 The witness's signature is not there, and below his name it's stated that

4 the document is certified by signature and stamp. I'd like to be shown

5 the signature and the stamp, please.

6 Can you see them? Can you see your signature on the document,

7 sir?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you see any stamp of your office on that? Can

10 we please have that last page of the B/C/S. Is there any stamp there from

11 your office, sir?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on this document.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you read the words in brackets -- the words

14 below your name, please, and tell us what they say?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Certified by signature and stamp."

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, why would that be written there if both your

17 signature and stamp are not there?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because this was submitted to the

19 3rd Corps Security Department via packet communications on the basis of

20 the original document that had a stamp.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did the original document have your signature?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had that not been the case, this

23 would never have been submitted to the 3rd Corps.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you telling us that this is a copy and not the

25 original?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a copy that was sent by

2 packet communications, but that sort of channel was not appropriate for

3 sending through any signatures or stamps.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand that answer. Can you clarify

5 what you mean by that? Why would the channel of communication not be

6 appropriate for sending documents that are signed and stamped?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that the document we're

8 looking at has an original where, indeed, one does find both a stamp and a

9 signature. Whichever operator was operating this particular piece of

10 equipment at the time was unable to send this document through without the

11 original. That's what the rules were.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

13 Yes, Madam Sartorio.

14 MS. SARTORIO: May I proceed, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, sir, we need to go to the first page of the English and also

18 the B/C/S and ask you to -- the first paragraph of the document describes

19 what the subject matter of the document is, and is the subject matter of

20 this document the fact that soldiers from the 328th Brigade have, on their

21 own, transferred over to another unit?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What does this document then -- what is the subject matter of this

24 document?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, it would be helpful if you could

1 ask questions rather than tell the witness, because are you saying to

2 him, "Is the document talking about transfer of members of the 328th

3 Mountain Brigade on their own to another unit?" I don't see that on the

4 English. I see the sentence ends at "and," and I don't know, "and" what?

5 MS. SARTORIO: I need to read the beginning of the document up to

6 the section: "Fourth Mountain Battalion."

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but had you the first page visible to the

8 witness, and the witness can only answer you on what he sees.

9 MS. SARTORIO: Right. It is on the first page in the B/C/S copy,

10 Your Honour. But in the English copy, it starts at the bottom of the

11 first page and runs into the second page, up to the fourth.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

13 MS. SARTORIO: And so I wanted him to read that and explain what

14 that is all about.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please don't do that. Ask him to do that.

16 MS. SARTORIO:

17 Q. Sir, could you please explain what that first paragraph, up to

18 that "4th Manoeuvre Battalion," is about?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have from the beginning of the English up

20 to the 4th? We have the last paragraph before the "4th Manoeuvre

21 Battalion."

22 MS. SARTORIO: We need to go to page 1 in English so the Judges

23 can read the first sentence, and then please transfer it over to the

24 second page.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

1 MS. SARTORIO:

2 Q. My question is: What is the subject matter of this paragraph,

3 sir?

4 A. This is something that we are informing the 3rd Corps Command

5 about through the Security Service. We are telling them that since the

6 26th of July, 1995, several soldiers had willfully abandoned their units,

7 several BH Army soldiers, and joined the El Mudjahid Detachment.

8 Therefore, this is a case of soldiers leaving one unit and joining another

9 outside the regular procedure.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: What do you mean by "outside the regular

11 procedure"?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the document states, this is

13 willful abandonment of units, no prior approval from appropriate officers,

14 no signed documents signed "Order" telling them to actually do that.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm asking you because this, of course, is

16 essential to our understanding of this case, because I wanted to be sure

17 that what you were referring to was the way in which these soldiers

18 deserted from one -- transferred themselves from one unit to another,

19 because the other alternative could have been to say that the El Mujahid

20 Detachment was outside the sphere of the ABiH. But I'm sure we will come

21 to that at a later stage. But you have explained what you meant, and I'm

22 grateful for that. Thank you.

23 MS. SARTORIO:

24 Q. Sir, this security report was sent to the 3rd Corps Military

25 Security Service Department, as well as to the 35th Division; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, it was addressed to the 3rd Corps Command Military Security

3 Department.

4 Q. And was there any response that you received, to your knowledge,

5 to this concern?

6 A. I can't quite remember, but I do think there was an order telling

7 the commanders to bring those soldiers back to their units.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this document be admitted

9 in evidence.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Ms. Sartorio, I'm so sorry to

11 interrupt you. However, there is something that I would like to find out

12 before we move on to a different document.

13 What about the B/C/S version of this document? Is the

14 word "desertion" actually used, as in "the soldiers deserted," or what

15 does it say exactly, that they merely transferred to another unit of their

16 own free will?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the only phrase I

18 can see being used here is "leaving their unit of their own will, without

19 authorisation," and that's all I can see on the screen.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 577.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Yes, Madam Sartorio.

1 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 I would like to ask that the witness be shown P02370.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What we have just seen?

4 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, sorry. Sorry, Your Honours. P02431. That was

5 admitted as Exhibit 401 -- P02431.

6 Q. Now, this is quite a lengthy document, but, sir, are you able to

7 identify this document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is this document?

10 A. This is the description of a situation that we referred to

11 as "combat readiness" throughout unit commands of the 35th Division.

12 MS. SARTORIO: And may we go to the last page of the document to

13 see the signature, please.

14 Q. Sir, is that your signature on this document?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like the witness to be shown -- it's page 11 in

17 the B/C/S version and page 19 in English. Just one moment, Your Honour.

18 Actually, if we look on page 11 of the English, and it's the

19 bottom of the page, and we're going to move from 11 to 12. But in B/C/S,

20 it is on page 7, and it's under section 10, which is titled "The 328th

21 Mountain Brigade."

22 Q. So we see the English -- the bottom is only "328th Mountain

23 Brigade," so we need to go to the next page. And, actually, the bottom

24 of -- sorry, Your Honours. The last word on page 12 of the English, and

25 then go over to 13. That's what I would like the Judges to see. And in

1 the B/C/S, it is in the middle of the page on page 7, and it's discussing

2 the El Mudjahedin Detachment.

3 Has the witness found that section of the document?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the English be turned over so that we see the

7 next page, please.

8 MS. SARTORIO:

9 Q. Now, could we just discuss this one paragraph for a few minutes

10 and break it down? In what way did the El Mudjahedin Detachment have a

11 positive influence on the combat morale of the 328th Mountain Brigade?

12 A. It's a well-known fact that members of the El Mujahid Detachment

13 were exceptionally brave. The BH Army soldiers derived a lot of

14 self-confidence, morale and courage from their presence.

15 Q. And then you talk about the negative effects. Could you explain

16 what that means?

17 A. Yes. The counter-effect or negative effect, if you like, of their

18 presence and any joint actions with the BH Army was this: They, members

19 of the El Mujahid Detachment, tried, in any which way they could, to

20 impose their way of life, their religious practices, certain customs and

21 ways. That did not sit well with the mentality prevailing among the

22 locals. One example of this would be the way they treated women, the way

23 they dressed, the way they practiced religion. Among other things, the

24 way they bathed in the nearby river, this sometimes led to incidents. The

25 locals were, in fact, themselves members of the 328th Brigade, their

1 families, their wives, daughters, and so on and so forth.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What about --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Were they also members of the

5 328th Brigade, their families, their wives, their daughters and sons and

6 so forth?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I was really trying to say is

8 that members of the El Mujahid Detachment treated their families like

9 that, out in the street, in the middle of the village, that sort of thing,

10 while their brothers, fathers, and parents were somewhere at the front

11 line.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand this answer. Members of the El

13 Mudjahedin Detachment, they treat their families while their fathers are

14 in the front line. I would imagine that these members of the El

15 Mudjahedin Detachment would also be in the front line, so there would be

16 nobody to treat their families otherwise back home.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about situations from

18 everyday life, things that happened in the town. For example, a member of

19 the El Mujahid Detachment sees girls swimming in the river, he's likely to

20 do something about this, to drive them away, to act in an aggressive

21 manner, that sort of thing. Alternatively, for example, he saw someone

22 smoking or drinking alcohol, they had a strict ban on those things, and

23 sometimes when facing situations of that kind, they could get aggressive.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's a much more clearer

25 answer to the question than anything else. Thank you very much.

1 Madam Sartorio, you may proceed.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this document be admitted

3 into evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 578.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MS. SARTORIO:

9 Q. Sir, do you know who the El Mujahid Detachment was subordinated

10 to, what unit, if any?

11 A. I have seen a number of documents, and those have led me to

12 believe that it was the Command of the 35th Division.

13 Q. And you've seen some documents today, and we're going to see more

14 documents, where you did report on the El Mujahid Detachment; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what is the reason for you reporting on them -- I'll withdraw

17 that question, Your Honour.

18 May the witness be shown P02441.

19 Sir, I'd like you to first, and also the Judges, look at the top

20 of the document, and then we'll go to the signature page.

21 Sir, this document is dated the 24th of August, 1995, and it's

22 coming from the assistant commander for Security to the 35th Division

23 Military Police Company; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Now could we go to the last page of the document,

1 please.

2 Q. Is that your signature, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what this document is about?

5 A. This is a routine document telling the military police to take

6 certain security measures in the area, monitoring all movement in the

7 area, setting up certain check-points, that sort of thing.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Now I'd like to direct the witness's attention to

9 the second page of the B/C/S, starting with the initials "SVI," and page 3

10 of English, which is close to the bottom of the page, where it discusses

11 all prisoners of war.

12 Q. Has the witness found the section of the document "SVI"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what this paragraph specifically refers

15 to?

16 A. This part about POWs talks about procedure, the procedure of

17 taking POWs and keeping them, should any be captured in the midst of

18 combat operations. So this is about the relevant procedures, and it says

19 how these POWs were to be treated. It also talks about deserters, about

20 war booty, and about reporting, the reporting system. It's mainly about

21 the procedural aspects of all these.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And could you please explain those abbreviations in

23 that paragraph, "VP" to "OBO," "OB"?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "VP" means military police, "OBO" is

25 the intelligence organ, and "OB" stands for security organ.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. SARTORIO:

3 Q. Sir, can you tell us what the relevant procedures would be, in

4 terms of what to do when POWs are captured? Let me rephrase that. When

5 members of the opposing army are captured and become prisoners of war,

6 what were the procedures that were to be followed, according to your

7 department?

8 A. Whenever an enemy soldier was captured, this soldier would be

9 handed over immediately to the military police. They were then taken to

10 the Military Police Company HQ in Zavidovici. There would normally be a

11 brief interview, and this captured person would be sent along to Zenica.

12 In addition to all of this, one was always adamant about the

13 strictest possible compliance with the Geneva Conventions and what they

14 say about the treatment of POWs.

15 Q. So were there certain procedures in place, in terms of

16 notification that prisoners had been taken into custody, and then someone

17 was to transport them? Were those procedures in place?

18 A. Well, yes, a POW would be taken from the front to the military

19 police HQ. The military police -- the military police commander in

20 Zenica, the Military police Battalion commander in Zenica would then be

21 informed, and he would then take measures for these POWs to be taken to

22 Zenica.

23 Q. Now, in the summer of 1995, were you aware of any prisoners of war

24 or any members of the VRS or other opposing armies being taken into

25 custody?

1 A. Do you mean July 2005? Yes. 1995, I'm sorry.

2 Q. Yes, that's what I mean, 1995, July 1995.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how did you receive notification, and what did you hear?

5 A. I personally met the first POWs in Livade village.

6 Q. And tell us how -- walk us through how you became aware of these

7 POWs, and what you did, and whether you saw them, from the beginning to

8 the end.

9 A. I was in the vicinity of Livade village. I can't even remember

10 why I happened to be in the area. I found out by chance from a soldier

11 that I had bumped into that there were some POWs in a nearby house. I

12 went to that house and found an armed guard standing outside the house.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you go there alone, sir?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as far as I remember, I was

15 alone.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

17 MS. SARTORIO:

18 Q. And can you tell us anything about this armed guard standing

19 outside the house, if he was part of what unit or ...?

20 A. There was just a single armed guard standing there. Judging by

21 his looks, his clothes, with no BH Army insignia displayed, I deduced that

22 this was a member of the El Mujahid Detachment. I tried to talk to him

23 for him to allow me into the house so that I could see the prisoners. He

24 had a radio device, and he spoke in a mixture of Bosnian and another

25 foreign language. He used the device to ask someone's permission to let

1 me in. To my great surprise, he okayed this, he said that I could go in.

2 Q. Do you know who he phoned, did you hear a name, or who he

3 contacted on the radio.

4 A. This was a mixture of Bosnian and another foreign language. I did

5 seem to catch the name "Abu Maali" at one time or another, but I can't be

6 positive about this. This was a small house, just ground floor, a village

7 house, which I entered followed by this guard. I was under a lot of

8 pressure. This was the first time that I was coming into contact with

9 POWs.

10 Throughout this time, I had an armed and ostensibly nervous guard

11 standing right behind me. When I walked into a small room, in one of the

12 corners I saw a large group of soldiers seated on the floor. In another

13 corner, there was a smaller group. Because of my mood, because of my

14 state, I couldn't really see whether their hands were tied. All of

15 them -- some of them -- were there any restraints on all of them, any of

16 them, and what sort of restraints exactly. They were all seated on the

17 floor, all quite closely together, and they were obviously very, very

18 scared.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Perhaps this is a good time to take a break, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed it is, if it is convenient to you, ma'am.

22 MS. SARTORIO: One point. I'm sorry. I forgot to ask that the

23 previous document be admitted into evidence, Your Honour, P02441.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: P02441 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

25 given an exhibit number.

1 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 579.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 The Court will adjourn and come back at quarter after 11.00.

5 Court adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

9 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Sir, before the break we were discussing you were in a house in

11 Livade and you saw some groups of prisoners sitting on the floor in this

12 house. Can you describe again the layout of the house and how many

13 prisoners that you saw, and if they were in different groups, how many in

14 each group?

15 A. It was a small single-storey village house. There was a corridor,

16 and I think there were two small rooms. And in one of those two small

17 rooms, when I got in there, I saw a large group of prisoners in one corner

18 and a smaller group of prisoners in another corner. They were all sitting

19 on the floor, and I was able to learn from this larger group of

20 prisoners -- or rather they told me that they were Muslims, Bosniaks, who

21 had served in the Republika Srpska Army as a work platoon. They said there

22 were 11 of them. And opposite them, in the other corner, there were three

23 soldiers, if I remember correctly, of the Republika Srpska Army.

24 Q. Now, once you entered the house, were you able to talk to any of

25 the prisoners?

1 A. That was precisely what I wanted to do, but the situation was very

2 tense, and when those prisoners from the larger group told me who they

3 were, I went to speak to the smaller group, and I asked them as quickly as

4 I could to tell me their names and what units they were in. They told me

5 that, but I actually wanted to ask them about how they were captured. But

6 another armed soldier appeared just then, and he started yelling at me,

7 and he motioned to me to get out, using hand gestures. He spoke a

8 language I couldn't understand, but what I could understand, on the basis

9 of his hand gestures and his aggressive attitude, that it would be better

10 for me to get out, for reasons of my personal safety.

11 All this happened very quickly, so I wasn't able to observe all

12 that much, apart from what I was able to jot down in that brief

13 conversation where I tried to get their personal details, their full names

14 and the unit they belonged to. This was a very bad situation, and I was

15 very much affected by it as I went back to my office in Zavidovici.

16 Q. And when you went back to your office in Zavidovici, what did you

17 do? Did you report this to someone, and to whom?

18 A. This brief note that I made, I probably gave to my associates, and

19 at the end of the day they drafted a comprehensive report that included

20 other events, and this was sent to the security organ in the 35th Division

21 or, rather, the security organ in the 3rd Corps.

22 MS. SARTORIO: I would like the witness, please, to be shown

23 Exhibit 553, which is on my exhibit list to the Defence. It was P02288 at

24 the time I submitted my exhibit list, and it's one page in the B/C/S and

25 it's three pages in English.

1 Could we see the first page in English, please. Okay.

2 Q. Sir, is this -- well, and also could we see the bottom of the

3 B/C/S and also, for the Judges, page 2 of English.

4 And, sir, is that your name at the bottom of the page?

5 A. I can't see the whole document.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Could we -- yeah.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, while we are finding the right page,

8 could you just clarify one little thing for me? Maybe you have already

9 told so, but I might have forgotten.

10 First of all, which day was this; do you remember? And, secondly,

11 were you alone when you went to see these two groups of prisoners? Were

12 you escorted by anybody else than by the Mujahid guards?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was this date, the 22nd

14 of July. This is when I made this note, and the note itself indicates

15 that the intelligence organ was present there. But I really can't recall

16 anyone being there with me, so I can't really confirm whether this person

17 was there with me because I just can't remember.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Can we enlarge the bottom of the document to see if

20 the witness is able to --

21 Q. In the lower right-hand corner, sir, is that your name?

22 A. This is a poor copy, but from what I can see, yes, it is.

23 MS. SARTORIO: And if we could go to page 2 of the English, and

24 there's the section that starts: "Until 1300 hours ..." If you could

25 find that, sir, on your copy, the B/C/S copy.

1 A. I can't see it on my screen.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Could we enlarge his copy, please?

3 Q. Do you see "1300", the last paragraph?

4 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.

5 Q. And if you read that paragraph, is this the substance of the

6 report that you submitted to your associates that ultimately went into

7 this report?

8 A. I don't know how my associates who drafted this came to be in

9 possession of this information. Probably in cooperation with the

10 coordination organ.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Operations organ.

12 A. I can only confirm the part of this report that is based on my

13 note that pertains to the three captured Serb soldiers, and the fact that

14 the people in the El Mujahid Detachment did not allow the takeover of

15 those prisoners.

16 MS. SARTORIO:

17 Q. And does it also say in this paragraph -- does it also discuss 11

18 members of Bosniak-Muslims from Prijedor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were those the soldiers that you referred to a few moments ago

21 that you saw in the house?

22 A. Yes, but these were not soldiers. They were members of the

23 so-called "Work Platoon." They were soldiers of the Republika Srpska Army

24 who were there to provide support to the other troops to dig and set up

25 shelters, dig trenches, bring water, things like that.

1 Q. Thank you for correcting me on that. But were those --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt? I'm sorry.

3 Sir, this document talks, as Madam Sartorio said, it talks of 11

4 members of Bosniaks, Muslims from Prijedor, located in the 35th Division.

5 But at the beginning of that paragraph, above there, it says: "Until

6 1.00, according to our checked information, the El Mudjahedin Detachment

7 in the village of Livade had 11 Chetnik prisoners."

8 Are you able to comment on that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that more prisoners were

10 brought in during that day and that they are referred to in this report.

11 I cannot confirm that because I didn't see them. What I can say with

12 certainty is that I saw the three Serb prisoners and the 11 Bosniaks from

13 the Work Platoon. The other information was probably obtained from the

14 operations organ, and this formed the basis for this report.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 Madam Sartorio.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

18 Sir, did you personally sign this report or was it signed by

19 somebody else on your behalf?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see the signature, so I

21 can't give you an answer.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the signature part be shown, please.

23 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry, I was -- I assumed that that was happening.

24 Could we enlarge the bottom of the page that the witness has, please.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Is there a signature at all? Is

1 your signature on it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see it.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I can't see it either. Could we

4 perhaps clarify that, Madam Sartorio?

5 MS. SARTORIO:

6 Q. Sir, can you explain to the Judges what is on the document? There

7 appears to be a stamp. Could you explain how this document would be

8 completed and how you would know that? And explain to the Judges what the

9 stamp means.

10 A. The stamp at the end of the document, at the bottom of the

11 document, is the stamp confirming the receipt of this document on the part

12 of the Military Security Service Department in the 3rd Corps, so this is

13 the stamp containing the reference number under which this document is

14 logged in at the 3rd Corps Security Department after its receipt.

15 Q. But, no, I think the specific question is: Why isn't this

16 document signed or signed on your behalf?

17 A. I suppose that it was also sent via packet radio. You can see

18 that at the top of the document.

19 Q. And that being at the top of the document, is it that square, is

20 that what that means, was sent --

21 A. No, no, to the left. It's on the left-hand corner.

22 MS. SARTORIO: And obviously can we zero in on both the English

23 and the B/C/S left-hand corner. On the first page of the English

24 document, please.

25 Q. So what is it exactly, sir, that tells you this was sent by packet

1 communications?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: He doesn't see the left of the B/C/S.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Right. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 A. We have the information here for the processing of this document

5 on the part of the operator who worked the packet communications system,

6 and you have the date and the time when it was sent.

7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a problem with something

8 else here.

9 When we talk about the original, did you sign the original or was

10 it signed by one of your associates? We see "for" written here. What is

11 this all about?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't confirm that unless I

13 see the original with the signature.

14 MS. SARTORIO:

15 Q. So therefore, sir, is this a copy, not the original?

16 A. Yes, this is a copy.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that this is a

18 copy, since this was sent by packet communications. We understand the

19 procedure. But at the bottom of the page on this copy, you can see

20 whether this was signed by the person whose name is listed here or whether

21 it was signed for that person. Does it say "for" here? And in the B/C/S

22 version, I cannot see whether this word "for" can be seen. What I want to

23 know, because I don't understand, is how the witness is unable to confirm

24 the contents of his whole report if he signed it. I can understand that if

25 somebody signed it on his behalf. That is why I want to clarify this

1 whole issue.

2 MS. SARTORIO:

3 Q. Sir, when you -- this report, I think you said earlier, contains

4 information that was obtained in your -- the security organ from other

5 organs. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So this report would contain your observations as well as

8 observations, say, perhaps from the Intelligence Department?

9 A. Yes, and this report was made by my associates on the basis of all

10 that. And if I signed this report, that was a token of my trust in my

11 associates, and I had no reason to doubt them in any way.

12 Q. So if this document has your name on it, did you -- did you read

13 it and did you understand what you were sending, and did you adopt what

14 was in the document, because you are signing it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. One more quick question about this document.

17 On page 2 of English -- sir, in the document there is a list of

18 three names. Do you recall whether these were the three prisoners that

19 you saw in that house in Livade on the 22nd of July?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

22 We would ask that this document be admitted in evidence, Your

23 Honours.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Isn't it already?

25 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, yes. Sorry, sorry. Okay, thank you.

1 I would like the witness now to be shown Exhibit 456, which is

2 2284 on the list that I sent Defence counsel.

3 Q. Sir, are you able to identify this document?

4 A. I did not draft this document, and I can't see the whole of it.

5 But I assume that this is an operational report.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Could the witness be shown briefly the second page.

7 Q. Whose name is on that -- on the signature page, sir?

8 A. Fadil Hasanagic's.

9 MS. SARTORIO: And then we'll go back to the first page, please.

10 Q. Now, sir, does this -- does this purport to be a report coming

11 from the commander of the 31st Division, Hasanagic, to the 3rd Corps

12 commander -- Command?

13 A. You mean the 35th?

14 Q. The 35th to the 3rd Corps.

15 A. I assume that it is so.

16 Q. Do you see a time that is indicated on the first page of this

17 document, up in the -- on the left-hand side of the page?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, the document that we just looked at, which was your document,

20 would that have -- do you know if that was sent prior to 2130?

21 A. The previous report, from what I could see, was sent at around

22 1600 hours, thereabouts, so it was earlier than this one.

23 MS. SARTORIO: Now I would like the witness to be -- page 2 of

24 English for the Judges, and it starts at the bottom of page 1 in the

25 Bosnian form. It begins with -- it's the large paragraph. It's about

1 halfway down the paragraph: "After processing confiscated documents ..."

2 Q. Do you see that section of your document, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if we just go to the next paragraph: "After interrogating the

5 imprisoned Chetniks ...," if you could just read that -- the next three

6 sentences.

7 A. Yes, the part that speaks about the Muslim prisoners and members

8 of the Republika Srpska Army who had come from Prnjavor.

9 Q. And are --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the English be turned to the next page,

11 please.

12 MS. SARTORIO:

13 Q. Sir, is this the same -- the content of what you just read, is

14 this the same event that is a part of your report?

15 A. I assume so, because my report is just a part of this report.

16 This report contains more information.

17 Q. But this is about the July 22nd discovery of the prisoners, is

18 that fair to say, that this document also talks about that incident?

19 A. I assume so, because I didn't draft this document, so I can't

20 confirm it.

21 Q. Right. I understand, sir. But in July of 1995, were there any

22 other instances of prisoners being taken into custody that you recall?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 MS. SARTORIO: We can put this document away, Your Honours, and

25 I'd like the witness to be shown P02286.

1 Q. Now, sir, I know you didn't author this document either, but would

2 you agree with me that the date is the same as the other two documents,

3 the 22nd of July of 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And does this document appear to be -- it's being sent from the

6 3rd Corps to the General Staff of the Army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, at the bottom of page 1 in English -- well, excuse me.

9 Before I get to that, the third paragraph down, which begins: "The

10 Chetnik forces ...," if the Judges could be shown that, it talks about the

11 11 Muslims who were used as working detail. Is that the same incident

12 that you were involved in?

13 A. Well, I didn't take part in any incidents, but I assume that these

14 are the Bosniaks that are being referred to here.

15 Q. Thank you, sir, for correcting that. It wasn't probably

16 completely accurate to call it being involved in an incident, but we're

17 talking about the interviews -- your attempted interviews of the POWs on

18 the 22nd of July.

19 Okay. And if we go further down, there's a sentence that

20 begins: "All captives are under control of the El Mudjahedin Detachment

21 who did not allow access to them," and it discusses two doctors and one

22 nurse among the captives.

23 Sir, are these the three VRS soldiers that you tried to interview?

24 A. I didn't see any women among the prisoners.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do you think there should have been women?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says here a nurse, a female

2 nurse.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Have you ever heard of a male nurse before?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but we have a different term

5 for that, "medicinski tehnicar," male nurse.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, "medicinska sestra" is

7 female nurse.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the word in Bosnian denotes a female nurse.

9 Over to you, Madam Sartorio.

10 MS. SARTORIO:

11 Q. Now, just one more note on this document. On the second page of

12 the English version, at the last sentence of the document before the

13 signatures, sir, do you see that? It discusses the ARBiH 35th Division

14 security organs. It mentions that they're engaged in collecting

15 information. And that is your security organ; correct?

16 A. No, this is the security organ of the 35th Division. The

17 reference here is probably to the security organs across the battalions

18 and brigades at the 35th Division. They continued to be active in the

19 field.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

21 Your Honours, I would ask that this document be admitted into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, I just want to understand the

24 last answer given by the witness. If he says, "No, this is the security

25 organ of the 35th Division," in which division were you? Were you not in

1 the 35th Division?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you not in the security organ of that division?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was: Is this document -- wait a

6 minute, let me read that.

7 MS. SARTORIO: I can help you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

9 MS. SARTORIO: Sir, at line 24, I said: "Just one more note on

10 this document. On the second page of the English version at the last

11 sentence of the document before the signature, sir, do you see that, it

12 discusses the ARBiH 35th Division security organs? It mentions that

13 they're engaged in collecting information. Is that --"

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that your security organ, and then you

15 say, "no."

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The security organ of the 3rd Corps

17 informs its superiors that the security organ of the 35th Division

18 continues to work on gathering intelligence in the field. This is a

19 report by the security organ of the 3rd Corps, or at least that's what

20 they stated.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but the question was: Does that

22 sentence refer to your security organ that is going to continue to collect

23 information? And you said "no." Now, that organ that has been referred

24 to is the 35th Division security organ to which I thought you belonged, so

25 it should have been "yes."

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

3 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

4 exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 580.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 MS. SARTORIO: May I have one moment, Your Honour, to speak with

8 my senior trial attorney.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

11 Thank you. May the witness be shown P02300. And the Bosnian

12 version at the bottom of the page so the witness can see, and on the

13 second page for the Judges.

14 Q. Sir, I know you didn't sign this document. Can you tell us whose

15 name is there at the bottom of the page?

16 A. Colonel Alihodzic, Ekrem Alihodzic.

17 Q. And I believe you told us earlier that he was the assistant

18 commander for the security organ of the 3rd Corps. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, I ask you to look at page 1 of the report, and page 1 in

21 English as well. Oh, it's only one page in Bosnian. At the top, do you

22 agree this document says it is going to the Army of RBiH, General Staff,

23 Security Administration?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And if you look at the first paragraph and -- actually, if you

1 read the entire document, which if you could read as much as you need to

2 read, is this the incident of the July 22nd POWs that you saw? Is this

3 the substance of this report?

4 A. Yes. This was copied from the report by the 35th Division.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, we request that this document be

6 admitted in evidence.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

8 please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 581.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, can I just ask you about the fate of

12 the two groups of prisoners.

13 I understand from this and from the previous document that the 11

14 prisoners who were Bosniaks but who had served for the Republika Srpska

15 Army, that they were originally detained by the El Mujahid Detachment, but

16 subsequently released into the custody of the ABiH. Is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were surrendered to the BH

18 Army military police and taken to Zenica. I do not know what became of

19 them later.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks. While the three Serb POWs were kept by

21 the El Mujahid Detachment?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as far as I know.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: And my question is, then: Do you know why this

24 difference was made? Why were the 11 handed over to the military police,

25 but the three Serbs were not?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, and I don't know who

2 took that decision, either.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Took which decision? Sorry. Right, okay, so you

4 mean the decision to keep them apart, to keep the two groups apart?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well, thanks.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we scroll down the English document, please.

8 Thank you very much. Right down. Keep going. Go to the next page.

9 Could you go to the next page, please.

10 Okay, you can go back to the next page -- to the first page.

11 I have a question. This document talks about the El Mudjahedin

12 Detachment, in the combat activities, capturing 11 enemy soldiers. And

13 then it says, in the third paragraph:

14 "All the captured aggressor soldiers are members of the Light

15 Prnjavor Brigade, and among them were ..."

16 It mentions three. Where it starts talking about the 11 people,

17 can this be explained, why the remaining eight are not mentioned or a

18 separate eleven is not mentioned, particularly because that paragraph

19 says "among them were." It doesn't say this is the total number.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no explanation to offer. The

21 11 Muslims that were separated are referred to at the end of the document.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting no interpretation.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the interpretation now, Your

24 Honour?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I pressed the wrong button by mistake.

1 Sorry.

2 Okay, thank you very much.

3 Yes, Madam Sartorio.

4 MS. SARTORIO:

5 Q. Sir, do you know if anyone from your -- the security division --

6 the security organ of the 35th Division ever interviewed these prisoners

7 that you -- that were encountered on the 22nd of July, 1995?

8 A. No. I later left the area, and I didn't talk to anyone there.

9 Q. Do you know if they were ever interviewed by anyone else -- I mean

10 anywhere else by anyone from your --

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. You don't know or --

13 A. No.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Your Honour, I'd ask the document be

15 admitted in evidence.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number. Can I just see the heading of this

18 document? Thank you, thanks.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 582.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

22 Unless I'm mistaken, there was that previous document which you

23 say you signed. There is a reference in that document to the following:

24 The fact that there was someone with you who was from the Intelligence

25 Department. Do you remember that, sir, being referred to in that

1 document?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do remember that reference,

3 but I really don't remember that person's presence.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, you did tell us that

5 you didn't remember that person's presence, but it is a document that you

6 signed?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, probably.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to correct, this document is Exhibit 581, not

10 582.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, we came to that same conclusion. Thank you,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: P02300. Yes, Madam Sartorio.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

15 May the witness please be shown P02294.

16 Q. Now, sir, I know you did not author this document, but at the top

17 of it, it says: "The General Staff of the Army," is that correct, and it's

18 a bulletin?

19 A. That's what it says. I've never seen the document before, though.

20 Q. I'd like you to turn to page 4 in English, and 3 in B/C/S, please.

21 One moment. Yes.

22 The part where it begins: "The 3rd Corps SVB ...," do you see

23 that section, sir? Do you see where it says "SVB," sir? The paragraphs

24 are not numbered, but I believe it's -- I have it marked as page 3 of the

25 B/C/S version, and it starts with "SVB, 3rd Corps." It's right there.

1 Can you tell us what that paragraph is about, sir?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be of

3 assistance, it's the next page in the Bosnian.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Okay, thank you.

7 Q. Sir, does that paragraph refer to again two doctors, one nurse,

8 and 11 Bosniaks?

9 A. Yes, but I don't know what the source was for this particular

10 piece of information, and I can't confirm it, either, with the exception

11 of what it says about the 11 Bosniaks, but that's about it.

12 Q. Correct. But this -- the 11 Bosniaks that are referred to here as

13 being captured, is this the same 11 Bosniaks from all the previous reports

14 that we've just looked at?

15 A. I assume so. I never heard of another incident like this again

16 anywhere else, I mean, about the 11 Bosnians being captured.

17 Q. And at the end of that paragraph, and it's on the next page in

18 English, page 5 in English, the last sentence of the paragraph with

19 reference to the El Mujahid Detachment, it specifically states here, does

20 it not, that the --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we be shown the next page in English, please.

22 MS. SARTORIO: It's at the top, okay, right there, the last

23 sentence of that paragraph, first paragraph, where it says:

24 "All the captured aggressor soldiers are being held by the El

25 Mudjahedin Detachment soldiers and so far they do not allow anyone access

1 to these prisoners."

2 Q. That's what the document says, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was that your experience as well, that you didn't have access

5 to them?

6 A. Yes, apart from the situation that I described.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I'd ask that this document be

8 admitted in evidence.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry. I have a question to you regarding the

10 destiny of this document. Where did it go? What was the bulletin, and to

11 whom was it addressed, and was it passed further up?

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, the Presiding Judge explains to me that this

14 is a bulletin within the army, but my question would still be: How far up

15 does it go?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, I believe another witness has

17 spoken about these bulletins. I believe it was Mr. Berbic that -- he --

18 it goes to the General Staff of the Army, the Command Staff.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

20 MS. SARTORIO: And just for the record, could we look at the last

21 page of the document to see whose name is there.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The name at the end of the document?

23 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Just who submitted this document, whose name is on

1 the document.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the name there, Madam Sartorio?

4 MS. SARTORIO: It's on the right-hand side of the English page,

5 and it may be further down on the Bosnian. I have actually a different --

6 I must have a different translation. I have a different translation.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you expect a name --

8 MS. SARTORIO: No.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- Madam Sartorio --

10 MS. SARTORIO: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- on the bulletin?

12 MS. SARTORIO: No, Your Honour. I will withdraw that question.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, madam.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, if this is

16 the same page of the Bosnian and the same page of the English, then the

17 English contains an addition that we do not seem to come across in the

18 Bosnian, each of the pages were certified, or maybe I just don't see it on

19 the screen. If we could see the Bosnian version in its entirety, perhaps.

20 Right, the translation of the stamp. My apologies, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, it explains the stamp.

22 Thank you. Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

23 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

24 exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Next Exhibit number 582.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness be shown, please, P02482. And can

3 we go to the very last page of this document, please. And the last page

4 in English as well, please. Thank you.

5 Q. Sir, is that your signature on the document in front of you on the

6 Bosnian copy?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. SARTORIO: And now may we go back to the first page.

9 Q. While we're getting there, could you explain to the Chamber what

10 this document is?

11 A. This is a document painting a picture of the security situation

12 that prevailed in the units of the 35th Division. It is being submitted

13 to the chief of Security Service -- Military Security Service of the 3rd

14 Corps.

15 Q. And what is the date of the document, sir, and to whom did the

16 document go? Excuse me, you just answered that. What was the date of the

17 document? Sorry.

18 A. The 30th of August, 1995.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. I would like to go to page 20 in the

20 English, and all I can give you is the ERN for the Bosnian copy. There

21 are no page numbers. 0414-9687, if you can find it. It's the paragraph

22 on the bottom on the B/C/S, and if we could bring it up and try to enlarge

23 it as much as possible, please, for the witness.

24 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, since you -- did

25 you write this report?

1 A. Probably not on my own. My associates helped me along.

2 Q. But, again, if you signed the report, would you -- wouldn't you

3 have adopted it as being correct or accurate?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, if we read this first paragraph, you're discussing the El

6 Mujahedin unit, as it's called, acting independently and not respecting

7 the -- is that the control-and-command system of the army?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And was this a concern of the security organ of the 35th Division?

10 A. Yes, and we kept issuing warnings about this.

11 Q. And then the next -- we're still in the first paragraph, but the

12 next sentence it talks about:

13 "The unit has completed all assigned military tasks."

14 Is that what that says?

15 A. The unit has achieved certain military successes. At the same

16 time, there was a backlash that came from this, which is something that I

17 spoke about earlier on.

18 Q. Right. But I think you jumped one sentence ahead. The sentence

19 at the end of the first paragraph starting with: "Since October

20 1994 ...," is it in your -- the original Bosnian copy, does it say the

21 unit completed all assigned military tasks; is that what it says?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, then it also talks about -- it uses "military successes

24 achieved." Is that also referred to in this paragraph -- or in the next

25 paragraph?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now I'd like you to go to the last sentence of this long

3 paragraph, starting with: "The security organ of the 35th Division ..."

4 It states that you -- that your security organ of the 35th Division

5 registered all incidents, but no energetic measures have been taken." Is

6 that what that says?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this document be admitted

9 in evidence.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 583.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MS. SARTORIO: May I have one more moment, Your Honour, please.

15 Thank you.

16 Thank you, Your Honours, for the indulgence.

17 May the witness be shown P02482. Oh, sorry, I keep going to

18 the -- sorry. P02574.

19 Q. But before I get to that: Sir, other than this incident -- other

20 than the capture of the POWs in July of 1995, did you ever hear about

21 another capture of VRS soldiers? In particular -- well, yes, another

22 capture. Did you ever hear of anything?

23 A. When combat operations started in Operation Farz, there were

24 instances when prisoners were taken, and there were many rumours about

25 prisoners. But I didn't see them and I can't confirm how many, who

1 captured them, where, and so on.

2 Q. But you did hear rumours?

3 A. Yes, there were rumours.

4 Q. Can you tell us what -- specifically what those rumours were?

5 A. Well, quite simply that the Serb soldiers were surrendering, that

6 prisoners were being taken, and that the Serb forces were in disarray.

7 Q. But as assistant commander for the security organ of the 35th

8 Division, did you not make attempts to follow up on these rumours?

9 A. Well, we tried as much as we could, and we reported on all that.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then why didn't you succeed? Why couldn't you see

11 those prisoners?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the prisoners who were brought

13 in by the military police of the BH Army were taken to the military

14 detention centre in Zavidovici and then they were immediately transferred

15 to Zenica, and access was possible only to those prisoners. I didn't see

16 any other prisoners. But as I already indicated, we just heard rumours

17 about them.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So are you saying that you actually did have a

19 chance to see the prisoners who were handed over to the military police,

20 but that there were other prisoners that you did not have a chance to talk

21 to; is that correct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the former, I had an

23 opportunity to see them, but as for the latter, the only knowledge that I

24 had was based on the rumours. I didn't have any opportunity to see them.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. Let's just have a look at the first

1 group of prisoners, that is to say, those prisoners who were handed over

2 to the military police. And you said that for those, you did have a

3 chance to see them. My question is here: Did you actually talk to all of

4 the prisoners who were taken by the military police and transferred to

5 Zenica?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to all of them. Those were

7 small groups. They came in small groups, two to three prisoners, so I

8 can't give you the exact number, the total number, but the military police

9 brought in those smaller groups of prisoners and then took them on to

10 Zenica, but that would be 10 to 12 prisoners in total at the most.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. So I understand that you did talk to

12 most of them and you could have talked to them if you would have wanted

13 to, because you could have gone to Zenica.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not my duty to go to Zenica

15 and to talk with them there. They were dealt with by other organs there.

16 My duty was simply to forward them to Zenica.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. But the interest is mostly concerned

18 with the other group of prisoners, those that you only heard rumours

19 about, and my question still stands, namely: Why did you not have a

20 chance to see them?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't know where they were. We

22 didn't know who had captured them. We didn't know how many of them there

23 were. We didn't know where they were. We simply didn't know what place

24 they were kept in.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: But to follow up on Ms. Sartorio's question, what

1 did the rumours say about where they were, and who had taken them, and how

2 many there were?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were just rumours about

4 many prisoners, but nothing specific, no specific information that could

5 lead us to the place or give us an idea of the actual number.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Over to you, Ms. Sartorio.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, just a second.

8 I don't know whether this is a problem of interpretation or is

9 there a misspeaking on your part. At page 56, line 15, you say: "My duty

10 was simply to forward them to Zenica." And I just want to confirm with

11 you, did you forward them to Zenica?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the prisoners that were brought

13 in by the military police, so that was primarily the task of the military

14 police to do so. They --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just answer my question. Did you forward them to

16 Zenica, you? You said: "My duty was simply to forward them to Zenica."

17 Now, did you forward them to Zenica?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken. It was not my

19 duty, it was the duty of the military police, and they were all forwarded

20 to Zenica.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But when they were taken by the police, military

22 police, to Zavidovici before they were transferred to Zenica, was it not

23 your duty to go and interview them, like you went and interviewed these

24 others in Livade?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A brief interview was conducted

1 while they were awaiting transportation to Zenica, just the basic

2 information was obtained from them, and this was done for the most part by

3 the intelligence organ from the 3rd Corps.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then what about the security organ? You are

5 responsible for security. The Intelligence were taking intelligence. You

6 want to look after security.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't really take any measures

8 in this respect.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking about -- when you say "we," you mean

10 the security organ?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Security Service organ.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Both of the 35th Division and of the 3rd Corps?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I'm talking about only the 35th

14 Division, the organ there.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Over to you, Madam Sartorio.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. Excuse me, my voice.

18 We are on P02574. I believe it's up in e-court.

19 Q. Now, sir, I know that this document is not from your security

20 organ, but it's from the intelligence organ. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were you still in your position as assistant commander for

23 Security on the 11th of September, 1995?

24 A. Yes, but that was already the stage where I was handing over my

25 duties to somebody else.

1 MS. SARTORIO: Right. But on the English version, please, if we

2 could go over -- make the page --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can we just scroll down, rather. We just

5 want to read what is in this page; right?

6 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, that's what I wanted you to do. I'd like you

7 to read this document.

8 Q. Now, sir, does this document talk about some VRS soldiers being

9 captured, or being in custody, or taken over?

10 A. I didn't write this document, but as far as I'm able to see, it

11 does refer to some prisoners.

12 Q. Are these the prisoners about which you heard rumours?

13 A. I don't know. I really can't comment on it. I didn't write this.

14 Q. Right. But if you were -- but if the assistant commander for

15 Intelligence is writing and knows about this, wouldn't it -- wouldn't it

16 have been something that would have come to the security organ?

17 A. I don't know. This is the first time that I see this document.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, may we mark this for identification.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 584.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Pending what, exactly?

23 MS. SARTORIO: For another witness to comment on it.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further

1 questions for this witness.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 You did very well. You just went by four minutes over your time,

4 in terms of time.

5 Is that then a convenient time? We'll take a break and come back

6 at half past 12.00.

7 Court adjourned.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Imamovic. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and

13 today I will be asking you some questions on behalf of General Rasim

14 Delic.

15 In the cross-examination, you can quite often respond to my

16 questions with a "yes" or "no," and in order to save time I would like to

17 ask you to do so, to say "yes" or "no." If you feel that you have to

18 elaborate further, please do so.

19 Likewise, we have a lot of problems with interpretation, and we

20 have to make an effort to speak as slow as possible. And in light of the

21 fact that we speak the same language, could you please make a small pause

22 after my question before you start your answer, so that the transcript

23 reflects everything that is said.

24 Do you understand me?

25 A. Yes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] To save us some time, I would like

2 to ask the witness to be shown Exhibit 583.

3 Q. Mr. Imamovic, you will remember that you've seen this document

4 just now, and you will remember that the Prosecutor asked you about a

5 portion of it that refers to the El Mudjahedin Detachment, the briefing

6 about this detachment. I will go back to this in the course of my

7 cross-examination, but now I would like us to look at the same document

8 from a different angle to see what its contents are.

9 Could the witness please be shown page 6 of this document in

10 Bosnian and page 8 in the English version. Could the Bosnian version be

11 zoomed in just a little bit so that the witness is able to read it.

12 Sir, do you agree that this part of the document talks about the

13 establishment of staffing levels and the level of training in the Security

14 Service and the military police units? This is the document originating

15 from your division. You said you worked in that division when the

16 Prosecutor asked you that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please look at the data contained here, the number of

19 officers, non-commissioned officers, and then could you please look at

20 what is written below this column, below this chart, if I may call it

21 that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you zoom in a little bit for us to see the

23 English.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't see the

25 figures here in English, but the witness will assist us by reading the

1 relevant portions in the Bosnian version.

2 Q. Witness, do you agree that it says here that in the Security

3 Department in the 35th Division, there are 31 officers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You can see that? You can see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you agree that it is explained further, below that, that

8 only four of them have a university degree; do you agree with that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sir, do you agree with me that military security, by its very

11 nature, is such that all the military security officers, in order to be

12 able to perform their duties properly, should have -- should be graduates

13 from the military academy or have a university degree, in light of the

14 sensitivity and complexity of the job?

15 A. Yes. And if I may add, not just a university degree or military

16 academy, but a number of specialised courses that one needs to attend in

17 order to be able to perform this job properly.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which column are you talking about, the column that

19 has "31" in --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm speaking about the

21 column where it says: "The manning levels for the personnel." That's the

22 fifth column in this chart. It says here the staffing levels, and then it

23 says "31", but it appears to me that there's nothing of the sort in the

24 English text.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true, there's nothing of the sort in

1 English, but the heading of that column, in the English,

2 reads "Recruited," and you're talking about security. That's my problem.

3 Now, I'm just wondering whether the translation is the same thing, is the

4 same, is correct. And if it is not correct, how are we to go about this

5 document?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's something else

7 missing. Could we please scroll down in the English version. Actually,

8 the previous page in the English version, let us try to clarify that.

9 Perhaps that is on the previous page. Could you scroll down?

10 Your Honours, you can see the heading here where it

11 says: "Establishment manning level and training of the Military Security

12 Service and the military police units." This is item number two in the

13 Bosnian version that you can see up here, and could we now go to the next

14 page in the English version and could we look at the very beginning of

15 this page. Fine.

16 Your Honours, I was talking about the first -- the fifth column,

17 where it says "Recruited." At the beginning you see where it

18 says "Officers." I think have you that in the English version, too. So

19 you can see here, in the fifth column --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand, Madam Vidovic, and do bear with me.

21 I can only read the English. You have the advantage of being able to read

22 B/C/S and English. And I'm saying I hear you talk to the witness about

23 the number of security officers who were employed in the division, and you

24 are saying there are 31. And I'm saying the heading that is number 5 in

25 the English is not headed "Security," it's headed "Recruited." So then I

1 get lost. I want to know, how do you determine that column number 5 talks

2 about security? And it's not your fault, it's the fault of the document

3 or my fault.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, let me try to clarify this and

5 make it simple.

6 Q. Witness, do you agree that this table shows the establishment

7 manning levels and training in the Military Security Service and the

8 military police units in the 35th Division? Let's first establish that.

9 A. Yes, that's correct, and if I may add --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm with you, I'm with you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the Trial Chamber now

13 understands this, so there's no need for us to dwell on this.

14 Q. What I asked you, and I have to apologise now, we really don't

15 have that much time, Witness, only four of the officers had a university

16 degree; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. And if I may add, perhaps they didn't have an appropriate

18 university degree.

19 Q. And could you now look at the text just below this table and the

20 fifth sentence from above. Do you agree that it says here that only one

21 security organ from the 35th Division used to work in the SVB of the

22 former JNA? On this basis, I infer that you -- your Military Security

23 Service lacked experience, with the exception of this one man in the 35th

24 Division. Am I correct?

25 A. Given the circumstances, these were the only people we had.

1 Q. Yes, I understand that. And you didn't have personnel who had

2 undergone training for military security, I mean the military academy,

3 with the specialty in military security?

4 A. Yes. If I may clarify, those were mostly military security

5 officers who had not had any training for that kind of a job. Those were

6 mostly recruits who had been mobilised, who worked in the furniture

7 factory, because we were all from that area, and they were appointed to

8 those posts by mere chance, and they tried to do as good a job as they

9 could.

10 Q. Witness, you personally never went to the military academy. You

11 had never performed any security tasks before you took up this post;

12 right?

13 A. Yes, that's true, I did not hold a degree from the military

14 academy, and I was appointed to this post overnight, as it were, and even

15 unbeknownst to me I was appointed, because it was somebody's assessment

16 that I should take that job.

17 Q. You don't have a degree in law, you don't have a police degree, do

18 you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What do you have a degree in?

21 A. Political sciences.

22 Q. Please look at the bottom of the page now. Do you agree that what

23 it says is this: "The General Staff of the Army made 13 members take

24 courses," and it is my understanding that the security organ of the 3rd

25 Corps organised two seminars where almost everyone from your organ was

1 involved or attended.

2 Do you agree that the higher-ranking commands, although the

3 circumstances were difficult and there was a war on, did their best to

4 train their personnel?

5 A. Yes, I do agree with that.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now turn to

7 page 2 of this document, please. The English is all right. It's the last

8 paragraph of the English that we want to look at, and then it continues

9 from there.

10 The next page of the Bosnian, please.

11 Q. Witness, please, please, look at the first three paragraphs of

12 this page, especially the first part referring to the means available to

13 the Military Security Department of the 35th division. Is this an error

14 or am I reading it correctly? You only had a single camera and a

15 tape-recorder, and that was all the equipment you had; is that right?

16 That's all the equipment you had?

17 A. Yes, unfortunately, that was the case.

18 Q. Very well. Next page in the English, please. Next page in

19 English.

20 So, Witness, again we see here some talk of courses being

21 organised by the General Staff and by Security, by the 3rd Corps

22 Security. You agree, you agree?

23 Let me ask you something else now. The higher-level commands

24 tried to perform some sort of training, they tried to train their security

25 officers. Do you agree that at those training sessions, they would also

1 familiarise their officers with the rules governing their work, the work

2 of the Security Service?

3 A. Those were crash courses, because that's all the circumstances

4 ever allowed. They would normally boil down to the fundamentals,

5 including the various regulations governing the work of security officers.

6 Q. You agree that there was a regulation called "Rules Governing the

7 Work of the Military Security Service"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Also Rules Governing the Work of Military Police?

10 A. Precisely.

11 Q. Do you agree that those rules were made available to the Military

12 Security Service and its officers throughout the territory under the

13 control of the army, including your own area?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show

16 the witness D566 at this point in time.

17 For the record, these are rules governing the work of the Military

18 Security Service in the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina.

20 Q. Witness, you see this is a document adopted by the Presidency on

21 the 11th of September, 1992, do you not? I do believe, furthermore, that

22 you, as a member of the Security Service, had an opportunity to obtain a

23 copy of this document and read through it. Would I be right in assuming

24 that? I don't mean this particular copy; the Rules in general.

25 A. Yes, you are right.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to look

2 at page 3 of the Bosnian and page 3 in the English. That is just the

3 portion we are looking for.

4 Q. Witness, read item 1, please. This is about the area of

5 competence of the Military Security Service. Please read it for

6 yourself. You may be familiar with this already.

7 Let me ask you this now. Have you read it? The Military Security

8 Service is in charge of state security tasks within the armed forces, the

9 objective being to offer adequate protection to military units, including

10 Staff Commands, units, and any institutions belonging to the armed

11 forces. Am I right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The objective is to protect unit Commands and to protect any

14 activities to do with the use of these units in a bid to prevent other

15 threats to units from inside the armed forces. Am I right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So I am right to believe that the Military Security Service dealt

18 with members of the armed forces as well as those working against the

19 armed forces?

20 A. Yes, you're right.

21 Q. Do you agree with me that it would be erroneous to assume that the

22 purview of the Military Security Service only had to do with an area of

23 responsibility in a purely territorial sense? In other words, it would be

24 erroneous to assume that a certain organ of the Military Security Service

25 was in charge of investigating everything that was happening in a certain

1 area; right? They only investigate things to do with units of the army or

2 something that is against the army; right?

3 A. Yes. If I may add, anything else that goes on in an area is the

4 job of other bodies rather than Military Security.

5 Q. You mean civilian police, right, for example, protecting private

6 property and civilians?

7 A. Yes, State Security Service.

8 Q. State Security Service, which is a part of the Ministry of the

9 Interior; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Part of the government, if you like, not the army; State Security

12 Service?

13 A. Yes, yes, these are the other bodies that would have been in

14 charge.

15 Q. All right. Jurisdiction over persons not members of the army, on

16 the condition that they weren't committing a crime against the army, that

17 wasn't something that was within the purview of the Military Security

18 Service; this was something for the civilian police to deal with, right?

19 A. Yes, under normal circumstances that is precisely the way it

20 should work.

21 Q. Be that as it may, do you agree that the tasks of the Military

22 Security Service are defined in detail in the document before us?

23 A. Yes, I do agree.

24 Q. Do you agree that one of the tasks was to create conditions for

25 documenting any war crimes to the fullest extent possible?

1 Your Honours, if we could please move to the next page of this

2 document.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe for the record we could ensure that it is

4 reflected -- there it comes. Sorry, I didn't see the witness's answer.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, I did ask the question, but it was not recorded. I asked

7 you about a particular task for the Military Security Service. It had to

8 do with creating conditions for documenting any war crimes to the fullest

9 extent possible, or any other crimes, for that matter. Do you agree that

10 this was within the purview of the Military Security Service?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Your Honours, can the witness now please be shown page 6 of the

14 Bosnian. The reference in English is page 5.

15 Q. Witness, could you please focus on item 8, "Control of the

16 Military Security Service." Do you agree that item 8 envisages this:

17 "Members of the Military Security Service shall be directly

18 subordinated to the commanding officer of the command, staff, unit or

19 institution in which they serve."

20 Is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a number for this

23 document, please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 585.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please look at

4 D567.

5 Q. Witness, these are Rules Governing the Work of the Military Police

6 of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. You see

7 that this was adopted in September 1992, do you not? The Military

8 Security Service, in the field, knew about this document, didn't they, and

9 they acted in compliance with it, didn't they? Is that so?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please go to page

12 6 of the Bosnian, the English reference being page 5. Could we scroll the

13 Bosnian version down, please. Yes, that's right, thank you. The English

14 is fine. I'm talking about the paragraph entitled "Command and Control of

15 the Military Police." Please look at item 7. It reads:

16 "Command and control of the military police is exercised by the

17 commanding officer ..."

18 Please now if we could turn to the next page of the Bosnian

19 version. The English version should be all right, I think. At the top of

20 the page, please.

21 Do you agree that the rule also envisaged this, that:

22 "Command and control of the military police should be exercised by

23 the commanding officer in which a particular -- a commanding officer of

24 the unit to which a particular military police unit belongs;" right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can we please explain what this means, exercising command and

2 control of the military police, in a purely technical sense, if you can

3 help us with that. If not, please do so. What is the role of the

4 security organ in terms of technical guidance or command and control?

5 A. The role of the security organ, in terms of technical control,

6 comes down to coordinating the work of MP units, training these units for

7 their day-to-day assignments. Also providing technical assistance during

8 the actual implementation of these assignments would be included. No

9 decisions, however, can be taken on how the military police is used.

10 Q. That was my next question, Witness, as a matter of fact. Would I

11 be right to assume that any decisions on the combat use of the military

12 police were taken by the commander of whichever unit the MP contingent

13 happened to be part of; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number for this

16 document.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 586.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, you will agree with me, won't you, you were in touch with

24 the military police, or rather perhaps you can help us with this. Is it

25 not true that the MPs were sometimes used by various commanders in ways

1 that didn't serve a particular purpose or perhaps in ways that were not in

2 keeping with the regulations?

3 A. Indeed. If I may elaborate.

4 Q. By all means, please, go ahead.

5 A. There were certain situations where commanders enlisted the

6 assistance of the MPs along the front lines as marksmen, and the Military

7 Security Service did issue warnings and alert the relevant bodies about

8 this.

9 Q. Very well. I'm about to show you another document, D568.

10 Before you look at this, Witness, it's true, isn't it, that

11 security organs complained to higher-ranking commands about this sort of

12 use that the MPs were put to? You personally, in fact, wrote certain

13 letters requesting that the military police be used in a more

14 purpose-oriented manner. I'm not talking about this document. I'm

15 talking in general terms.

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. All right. Can you now please look at the document in front of

18 you. Do you agree that this is an order called "Intended Use of the

19 Military Police," and it was sent to the commanders of the 35th Division,

20 the 37th Division and to independent units on the 12th of August, 1995?

21 A. Yes, I do agree.

22 Q. Do you agree that the corps commander notices the problem of the

23 MPs not being used in the way they are intended to be used, and through

24 this document he bans any such use of the military police that was not in

25 keeping with the rules and orders that the MPs henceforth be used only in

1 keeping with the rules?

2 Your Honours, if we could please pull the English version down a

3 little so that you may be able to follow. Thank you. The lower half of

4 the document, the English. That's right.

5 So this was the order that was sent to the 35th Division by the

6 Corps Command; right?

7 A. Yes. And if I may add something.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. The handwritten portion, that's my handwriting. I write here that

10 this should be forwarded to all the bodies in all the brigades and

11 battalions.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the next page in

13 the English, and eventually I'll return to this.

14 Q. So my understanding is you received this order and you passed it

15 along to all the brigades and battalions on the ground. Right?

16 A. Yes, this is my instruction to my associates concerning the

17 implementation of this order.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Your Honours, can we please have a number for this document.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 587.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. As a member of the Military Security Service, perhaps you can help

1 us with this. You were asked certain questions by the OTP, and you

2 mentioned units including the 35th Division and lower-level units too,

3 these units were familiar with the provisions of International Law of War,

4 they knew about the provisions enshrined in the Geneva Conventions, and so

5 on and so forth, and how any POWs were to be treated; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point in time, D569, that's

8 the document that I want the witness to see next.

9 Q. Witness, you agree this is a document produced by the 3rd Corps

10 Command, dated the 27th of May, 1995. It says:

11 "Treatment of POWs, defectors, persons exchanged and expelled from

12 their areas."

13 This was sent to division and independent unit commanders. Can

14 you please look at this particular page of this document. I will give you

15 some time to do that, sir.

16 Do you agree about this: The 3rd Corps Command here defines

17 exactly what the treatment should be of any POWs, and they were adamant

18 that any POWs should be treated in keeping with the laws of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina and with the resolutions signed by Bosnia and Herzegovina; is

20 that not right, sir?

21 A. Yes, very much so, and I believe I have spoken about these

22 procedures when prompted to do so by the OTP earlier on.

23 Q. So the reception of POWs, selection of POWs, opening files on

24 POWs; right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Finally, written reports were to be submitted to the assistant

2 commander for Security of the 3rd Corps; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Fine. Let's move on to the next page of this document, please.

5 And the English, too.

6 If you look at number 14, the 3rd Corps Commander says that the

7 commanders of divisions and so on are responsible for a consistent

8 implementation of this order; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You, who were in the division, forwarded this order to the units

11 that were on the ground; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a

14 number for this document.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 588.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 396, please.

20 Q. You gave evidence today about issues, among other things, to do

21 with the resubordination of the El Mujahid Detachment to the 35th

22 Division. Please look at this document. You may never have seen it

23 before, for all I know, but I do want you to look at some facts here.

24 Resubordination on the 2nd of June, 1995. This is a 3rd Corps

25 order, as you see. Item 1, "Resubordinate the El Mujahid Detachment to

1 the 35th Division Command," and focus on the specific figure there,

2 between 350 and 400 fighters.

3 Could we scroll the English down a little, please. Next page,

4 please. Thank you.

5 You see the figure mentioned there, the El Mujahid, between 350

6 and 400 fighters, and then observation posts, Dolac, Blizna, Liz [phoen],

7 Vis, Paljenik, this is the area of responsibility of the 35th Division,

8 isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Your Honours, could we

11 please move to the next page of this document in the Bosnian so that we

12 can tell exactly when it was dispatched. Scroll down a little, please.

13 Thank you.

14 Q. There is a handwritten note, "35th Division, KoV," and the time

15 appears to be 2109; right?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Please keep that in mind. There is another quote there in

18 reference to the time it was dispatched to the El Mujahid Detachment.

19 Still on the same topic, I wish to show I was different document

20 now, but could we put this one away first, and I would like the witness to

21 look at D570.

22 Witness, first of all, I would like to ask you the following: You

23 were in the Command of the 35th Division. Do you know Hajrudin Djelmic, a

24 man by that name?

25 A. That was the officer in the operations and training organ at the

1 35th Division Command.

2 Q. Fine. And who is Almir Husic?

3 A. I think he was a soldier who actually worked on the computer.

4 Q. Fine. And do you recognise the signature here?

5 A. I think that this is the signature of the commander of the 35th

6 Division, Fadil Hasanagic.

7 Q. Fine. Thank you. Could you please look at this document. The

8 date is the 2nd of June, 1995, and right below it it says operational

9 time, 1530 hours; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you agree that this is a document that was drafted on the same

12 date as the previous one, the only difference being that this one was

13 written several hours before the other one? The previous one was sent

14 from the division at around 2100 hours, and here we have the time as 1530

15 on the same date; do you agree?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please read this document to yourself --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before that, Madam Vidovic, can we just place

19 on the record that the English translation is actually dated a day

20 earlier, and I don't know which is the mistake. I guess the mistake must

21 be the English. It couldn't have been translated before it was written.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, obviously, obviously. The date

23 is quite clear here. It's the 2nd of June. I apologise. I never even

24 noticed.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are right, but the English translation is --

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We will correct that, Your Honours.

2 In fact, we first had a very, very poor copy at our disposal, and then we

3 asked for a better copy from the archive, and that is probably why this

4 error occurred. It was not legible. But now we have a very good copy.

5 Q. Sir, I asked you a little while ago to keep in mind the elements

6 from the order of the 3rd Corps. Do you agree that this document --

7 apparently in this document, on the 2nd of June, 1995, Commander

8 Hasanagic, on the basis of the assessment of the new developments and in

9 order to use the Mujahedin Detachment forces, makes a proposal to the

10 corps commander, to the division commander, that the detachment remains in

11 his area of responsibility of the 35th Division; that's what it says here?

12 A. I think that the proposal is quite clear.

13 Q. Fine. Do you agree that it says "500 fighters" here?

14 A. Yes, I can see that it says that here.

15 Q. A little while ago, we saw this figure. That's why I made you

16 focus on that, "350 to 400 soldiers," and here it says "500 soldiers." So

17 it would seem that there is not a clear picture about the El Mudjahedin

18 Detachment, because the Corps has one figure and the 35th Division has

19 another figure for the strength of that detachment, and this is a

20 substantial discrepancy, 100 to 150 people?

21 A. Yes. And if I may add, the exact number -- the exact strength of

22 the El Mudjahedin Detachment could never be determined. I can give you an

23 example, if you would allow me.

24 Q. Please go ahead.

25 A. If they made any demands for food supplies, it would be quite

1 natural, if you ask for cans, you ask for quantities sufficient for 100 to

2 150 soldiers, but it is not quite the usual practice to be asking for 200

3 to 300 soldiers. I don't know if I explained this clearly to you.

4 Q. Yes. This is just an example?

5 A. Yes, that's just an example, but I heard of such cases. On one

6 occasion, they asked for something without giving a precise strength,

7 number of troops.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But under those circumstances, is it not possible

9 that some people may be off duty and that's why food is not being ordered

10 for them? I would imagine this would happen in any army.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the BH Army units, it was always

12 known what the strength of the unit was at any given time, so people who

13 were present and those who were absent.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is true, but when you ordered food for a unit

15 of the Army of BiH, you wouldn't order food for those who are off duty and

16 have gone away. You would order food for the number that is there. You

17 wouldn't order food for the full strength of the unit, but you'd order

18 food for the people who are present, unless I don't understand what you

19 mean by ordering food.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is just an example, but

21 if you order food for 150 soldiers, then that's 150 soldiers who are

22 present in the unit and who are supposed to get this food. You don't

23 order for 150 to 200 soldiers. So you always knew who was there, who was

24 supposed to get food, and we could never -- you could never just guess

25 whether you would have 150 or 200 people. That's how it was in other BH

1 Army units.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did you have to guess when you ordered food for

3 the El Mudjahedin Detachment or did you give a specific amount of food for

4 the number that is presently on duty at the time?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't give you an answer to

6 that because I wasn't engaged in those duties.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then your example doesn't

8 work, because you were not engaged in those duties.

9 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. What I want to ask you is the following: You didn't have data,

12 information, about this unit, because it appears here that the Corps has

13 the information indicating that the strength of the detachment was less

14 than the information that the Division had.

15 A. I've told you already that we never were able to determine the

16 actual strength of that unit.

17 Q. Thank you. You were unable to do so because the relationship

18 between the 35th Division, as the superior unit, and the El Mujahedin, as

19 the subordinate unit, was not such -- it was not a relationship in which

20 one party was superior to the other and the other was subordinate, it was

21 not the kind of relationship where you would get this kind of information

22 from them; am I right?

23 A. Yes, you're right.

24 Q. Now I want to ask you the following: You saw several documents

25 about the communication between the El Mudjahedin Detachment and the

1 Division Command, including the one that we've just seen, E583, that you

2 yourself drafted, that dealt with the briefing to the chief of the

3 Military Security Service in the 3rd Corps. You remember that document?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The Prosecutor showed you one specific segment that had to do with

6 the El Mudjahedin Detachment. What you did write there, as you indicated:

7 "The command and control system was not complied with."

8 Do you recall having written that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then on the next page, you say that this unit achieved

11 military successes. Are we then talking about the situation where this

12 unit achieved those successes bypassing the Command and the

13 chain-of-command system in the 35th Division, in fact it did not obey

14 orders from the 35th Division? Did you understand my question?

15 A. Yes. There were such activities on their part, yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you asked, at the end of that

17 question, "Did you understand my question," and the witness

18 answered, "Yes." And that question is not transcribed. So the "yes"

19 seems to be answering the former question, not answering whether he

20 understood. Can we clear that, please.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, I first asked you whether you understand my question.

23 You said that you do. And now let me ask you the question again just to

24 make everything clear for the record.

25 My conclusion is that the El Mudjahedin Detachment, when it

1 achieved its military successes, did not operate under the command of the

2 35th Division but under its own command. Am I right?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object to the form of the

5 question, "my conclusion is that ..." and then I know Madam Vidovic is

6 allowed to ask leading questions, but I think this again appears to be her

7 testifying, it's her conclusion. I would just object to the form.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is not

10 examination-in-chief, this is cross-examination, and I am entitled to put

11 anything to the witness in the most direct terms, to put my case to the

12 witness, and that's what I do, that's what I did. And the witness now can

13 either agree with what I put to him or not.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Vidovic, but you

15 cannot draw or present any of your own conclusions.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will

17 rephrase the question in this manner:

18 Q. Am I right if I believe that the El Mudjahedin Detachment, when it

19 achieved its military successes, operated under its own command, the

20 command of its own commanders and bosses, not the 35th Division? Could

21 you please assist us in this regard?

22 A. May I explain? The El Mudjahedin Detachment was given its tasks

23 in the documents -- in the document signed by the commander of the 35th

24 Division, but in the field, during the action itself, as far as I know,

25 their commanders, if I may call them that, made their own decisions. They

1 decided when to start the action, how they intended to go about it, and in

2 such a situation the 35th Division Command did not have much influence.

3 So, in other words, in the field they made their own decisions and they

4 were not influenced by the 35th Division commander. That's as far as I

5 know.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just understand? The decisions they made in

7 the field, were they aimed at achieving the tasks that were given by the

8 35th Division or were they aimed at achieving other tasks that were not

9 given by the 35th Division?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The essence is the following: They

11 carried out each and every task in their own way, and they paid no heed to

12 the orders of the commander of the 35th Division.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You described in the briefing the military success of the unit,

17 and then you went on to describe the flip side, the incidents that they

18 had been causing. And now I would like to ask you the following: Do you

19 agree with me that those incidents were, in fact, the result of the fact

20 that they had a different religion, a different view of life, because you

21 described that they didn't allow women to swim, that they didn't want men

22 and women to socialise and so on --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Madam Vidovic. I just don't understand

24 how that has to do with achieving tasks on the field. Are they having

25 women in the field now? Surely, they -- I don't understand. I don't

1 understand how you link those two.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be of some

3 assistance, I'm trying to get something clear about this document that the

4 witness testified about. I want to find out what kind of incidents he

5 actually reported to the 3rd Corps Command. He described the attacks on

6 women, on people swimming or bathing, on -- that's E583, and that's the

7 context in which I mentioned women, just because the witness mentions them

8 in the document.

9 Q. So do you agree that this is the kind of incidents that you

10 describe --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- to the superior command?

13 A. If I may explain something, like the negative side of it. When

14 we're talking about the women, these women were the mothers, the wives,

15 the sisters of the BH Army fighters manning the defence lines, and quite

16 naturally they worried about their families while they were up there on

17 the front line, and this kind of incidents affected their combat morale

18 and everything else.

19 Q. Fine. But I want to ask you the following: Do you agree that you

20 did not describe in your report any killings or mistreatment of prisoners

21 of war, killing of other people that they would have committed; you didn't

22 have any such information and you did not include it in this report, is

23 that so?

24 A. No, this was just information about the incidents that did not

25 have any tragic consequences.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. The witness -- has the

2 witness testified about killing? I remember him testifying about the

3 capture of prisoners.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am trying to

5 establish what kind of information the 35th Division had and what kind of

6 information it forwarded to its superior command, and that is why I asked

7 the witness quite specifically whether he actually had this kind of

8 information about any killings or mistreatment of prisoners of war.

9 Q. It is a fact that you didn't have any such information?

10 A. We didn't have any such information.

11 Q. And you did not report that to the superior command; is that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, I'll ask you, when you answer, to please

14 answer verbally rather than nodding your head, because when you nod the

15 head, it doesn't get recorded on the transcript. Okay.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Your Honour, I forgot to ask for an exhibit number for the

18 document that we had a little while ago. That's D570. Could we have an

19 exhibit number for that, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we give it a number, Madam Vidovic, you'll

21 remember we mentioned that the dates are different within the two

22 versions, and I notice also that the English version has a lot

23 of "Illegible,""illegible," "illegible." You know, words were not read.

24 And now that you say you've got a good copy, can you please find a

25 fully-translated English version.

1 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

2 exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 589.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Let me ask you something else about the El Mudjahedin Detachment.

7 Do you agree that the commander of the 35th Division demanded any reports

8 from the detachment on various issues, if you know?

9 A. I assume that he did, because that unit was to be treated in the

10 same way as any other unit in the 35th Division, and it was to have the

11 same kind of obligations towards the 35th Division Command.

12 Q. Now I would like to ask you for your sphere of work.

13 Do you agree with me that the military security is quite peculiar,

14 in that the subordination principle comes to the fore, to the greatest

15 possible extent? In other words, there should be very close cooperation

16 between the superior and subordinate units, and the chain of command, the

17 subordination principle, should be complied with to the fullest possible

18 extent; am I right?

19 A. Yes, that's how the service functions.

20 Q. So every unit subordinate to you should send its own security

21 reports to you; is that so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So if the El Mujahedin had a security organ, then it should have

24 sent its reports to you; am I right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Could you now please tell the Trial Chamber whether you ever

2 received any such report?

3 A. No, we didn't.

4 Q. One more thing. You had associates in the Military Security, in

5 the lower-level units. You worked with those people on a daily basis; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you have any such person that you worked with in the El

9 Mudjahedin Detachment?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you ever able to give them any tasks, in terms of military

12 security, to the commander or anybody else in that unit?

13 A. No, I never managed to establish any kind of contact with them in

14 this regard.

15 Q. And let me just ask you a very brief question. The documents show

16 that there is some knowledge about this detachment. Do you agree with me

17 that the knowledge about the El Mudjahedin Detachment mostly came from

18 other units of the BH Army; for instance, the 328th Brigade, so that you

19 didn't get the information about them from them directly, but you got it

20 from units that were adjacent to them?

21 A. Yes, from the soldiers in the adjacent units who would see them in

22 the field.

23 Q. This also applied to their dead; is that so?

24 A. Any information about them was obtained in this manner.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.

1 Your Honours, I think this is a convenient time for us to stop.

2 Unfortunately, I didn't manage to finish my cross-examination because this

3 witness is much too important for the Defence for us to cut his

4 examination short to any considerable extent. I'm sorry for that.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, we are all sorry to you, because in this

6 institution it is a public holiday tomorrow, so we will not be working,

7 and it would have been good if we could have finished with you and let you

8 go home before the weekend, but we are not able to do so. So you'll have

9 to come back on Monday, the 15th of October, at 9.00 in the morning. Yes,

10 at 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom. Okay? You understand?

11 Thank you very much.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. You may stand down.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned to Monday, the 15th of October at

16 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom II.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

19 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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