Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4048

1 Monday, 15 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, can you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom.

16 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio, assisted by

17 our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

21 morning to my learned friends from the OTP. Good morning to everyone in

22 and around the courtroom.

23 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for Mr. Delic. Our case

24 manager is Ms. Lejla Gluhic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 4049

1 Good morning, sir. How are you this morning?

2 Let me just warn you that, at the beginning of your testimony, you

3 made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else

4 but the truth, and I just want to warn you that you are still bound by

5 that declaration. Okay?


7 [The witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Imamovic. I was asking you some questions

12 concerning the incidents regarding the Mujahedin. This is something that

13 you reported on at the time. I have several questions left about that.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

15 Exhibit 576.

16 Q. Witness, you remember seeing this document, don't you, just before

17 the weekend? The OTP showed you this document. It was produced by the

18 35th Division, dated the 25th of May, 1995, sent to the Command of the 3rd

19 Corps, the Security Service. It bears your name, and you claim that you

20 signed the document. You remember that, don't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You explained that in this document, you forwarded some evidence

23 to the Security Department of the 3rd Corps; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You also explained that this is in relation to a particular

Page 4050

1 incident which involved the pressing of charges against someone; right?

2 You remember that, don't you?

3 A. I don't remember if charges were eventually pressed or not. I

4 can't say either way, but I think so.

5 Q. Very well. More about that. You were testifying on the 11th of

6 October, 2007; 3964 is the transcript page, lines 18 through 29. You were

7 asked the following question by the OTP: Do you know whether any response

8 was provided to that letter you wrote or the attachment; in other words,

9 was an investigation launched?

10 I want you to clarify to the Trial Chamber the following: It's

11 true, isn't it, that you, as the security organ in the 35th Division, when

12 you recorded an incident like that, the desecration of the cemetery, you

13 were actually responsible for launching an investigation, weren't you?

14 A. It was the military police that was responsible for launching an

15 investigation, and I believe one of my associates was actually working

16 with the military police.

17 Q. Fine. Be that as it may, it was the military police of your

18 Command that conducted this investigation or was it actually a

19 lower-ranking command; the brigade, for example?

20 A. I can't say for sure, but, as always, everyone was involved.

21 Q. Very well. You took photographs of the cemetery and you produced

22 an official note of the security organ. You forwarded all of this

23 material to your superior command, did you not?

24 A. Yes, that's precisely what this document speaks about.

25 Q. Do you agree that, at the very end, it says: "Operative work on

Page 4051

1 the case is ongoing. We shall keep you up to date."

2 That is the last sentence of the document, is it not?

3 A. Yes, that's what it says.

4 Q. So, in other words, you are here reporting that the investigation

5 is bound to continue; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can now put this

9 document away.

10 Could the witness now please look at Exhibit 577.

11 Q. Witness, it wasn't necessary for your superior command to

12 necessarily do something about a document like this, since the

13 investigation was still underway, and I mean the document that we just saw

14 a while ago, not the new one that has just come up?

15 A. One needs to wait for the conclusion of an investigation before

16 one does anything about it. Before that stage, it is not necessary for

17 superiors to do anything about it.

18 Q. All right. Have you this new document in front of you. I believe

19 you've seen it already, and this is a document produced by your organ.

20 You were shown this by the Prosecutor as well. It is a document produced

21 by the Security Service of the 35th Division, and this is about members of

22 the 328th Brigade and the 4th Battalion transferring to the El Mudjahedin

23 Detachment. You see that, don't you? You remember the document?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. First and foremost, Witness --

Page 4052

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- or rather, could the witness be

2 shown page 2 of this document first? It's the last page of the English

3 text with the signature, or where the signature should be. Right.

4 Q. You realise that your name is there. Where the signature should

5 be, we see your name. It says: "Certified by stamp and signature." You

6 agree that we can't find your actual initials on this page, can we?

7 A. Yes, that's right, we can't.

8 Q. Right.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please go back to the

10 first page of this document now. Let's zoom in on the upper half of the

11 page. The same applies to the English. Thank you. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, can you please, once again, clarify the following: You

13 said this document was encrypted and dispatched by packet communications;

14 right? You remember that, don't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You see the first portion of the document. There's a line, and

17 please look closely at what it says above the line. You were the one

18 forwarding quite a number of documents that were encrypted because you

19 were a security officer, and I have the following question for you for

20 that reason: Am I right if I say that encrypted documents were dispatched

21 in the following way: Whoever is in charge of manning and operating the

22 packet communications equipment receives the original documents to be

23 dispatched, right, the document that is to be sent to someone? Is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4053

1 Q. The next thing is this: The document is copied or typed up, if

2 you like, so that the recipient receives a typed-up version of the

3 original text, this being the reason why the stamp and signature cannot be

4 seen on the document that the recipient eventually gets; am I right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we want to see the original, then we have to go to the top of

7 the document, the file number or the file name and the number, right, and

8 these two references will help us track down the original document, in a

9 manner of speaking? We need a file name in order to find that, don't we?

10 A. Yes. These are references that tell us what file we are looking

11 for, what document.

12 Q. Right. You see what it says there: "Certified by stamp and

13 signature." By no means does this mean that the signature in question is

14 yours. "Certified by stamp and signature," generically speaking, it could

15 have been anyone's signature, couldn't it?

16 I don't mean necessarily anyone outside the Security Service. I

17 mean someone else who was part of the Security Service who would have been

18 authorised to sign on your behalf. Right?

19 A. Yes. I had a number of associates who were authorised to sign

20 these documents off, and a number of other documents show just that.

21 Q. In other words, if we want to know for sure who signed a

22 particular document, we have to go to the original to make sure; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Let me ask you about this particular document.

25 There's something else I want to ask you.

Page 4054

1 You agree that it talks about members of the 328th Brigade and the

2 4th Battalion being transferred to the El Mudjahedin Detachment?

3 A. Yes. I would say willful abandonment of their own unit,

4 unauthorised departure from their own unit.

5 Q. All right. You informed your superior command about this, and the

6 Prosecutor asked you questions to this effect: "Did the superior command

7 do anything with that at all document?" You remember being asked that

8 question, don't you?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For that reason, I want you to look

11 at PP2373. 2373.

12 Q. First of all, can you please confirm that this is an order by the

13 3rd Corps, dated the 9th of August, 1995, and the title is "Order Being

14 Returned to the El Mudjahedin Detachment"?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the

16 introduction, if that can be zoomed in on, please, just for us to see the

17 date.

18 Q. For whatever reason, the number is crossed out.

19 It says: "Pursuant to a report from the Military Security

20 Service, strictly confidential number," and we can't see the number, can

21 we; and then it goes on to say this: "As of the 6th of August, 1995."

22 You remember that the document a while ago bore the date the 6th

23 of August?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you please have a look: The El Mudjahedin Detachment is

Page 4055

1 hereby being ordered to immediately return the persons they received into

2 their unit without appropriate transfer orders.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I don't know what is written on the

4 B/C/S; but on the English, this document refers to a document written on

5 the 4th of August, not the 6th of August.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an obvious

7 translation error. In the Bosnian, we see this reference to the 6th of

8 August, if you could please just zoom in the relevant portion.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can see the "6th of August" in the B/C/S. Thank

10 you so much. I see also that part of the sentence just before the date in

11 the B/C/S has been blocked out.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is a PT document of the

13 Prosecution. They probably got it like this from their archive, and this

14 is the form in which it was eventually submitted to us by the OTP. I

15 suppose this is how they got it, to begin with. The Defence got what you

16 see.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, you agree with me that, obviously, the 3rd Corps Command

20 is here trying to deal with problems trying to place this unit within the

21 command system, I mean the El Mujahid Detachment, and to forestall any

22 willful action on their part?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a

Page 4056

1 number for this document.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 590.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now D548.

7 For the record, this is a document of the 3rd Corps Security

8 Service or Security Department, the 22nd of April, 1995, and it's about

9 the El Mudjahedin Detachment.

10 Q. I believe, Witness, that you have never set eyes on this document;

11 however, you testified that in this period of time, the detachment was in

12 your area. It is for that reason that I wish to ask you this.

13 Can you please just go through the document? It's a very brief

14 document. This is a security document, and I believe you're familiar with

15 its substance. I want to ask you something about that.

16 The Security Department of the 3rd Corps Command, that was your

17 superior command, was it not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As a member of the Military Security Department, you knew that

20 there was an order to stop drafting soldiers into the El Mudjahedin

21 Detachment, and it took effect on the 22nd of April, 1995, at the very

22 latest. Did you know anything about that?

23 A. I'm not sure, but I'm sure that the last document was about

24 soldiers taking action without appropriate authorisation and joining that

25 unit without appropriate authorisation.

Page 4057

1 Q. When you say "the previous document," you mean that other people

2 joined this unit from other units, so this constituted a violation of the

3 document that you now have in front of you; right? So you do allow for

4 the possibility that you knew about this ban on joining the El Mujahedin

5 unit, or rather, the El Mudjahedin Detachment being forbidden from the

6 receiving of these soldiers into their rank, and that it took effect on

7 the 22nd of April, 1995, at the latest?

8 A. I may have known. I do allow for the possibility, but I don't for

9 this particular document. The report by the Security Service of the 35th

10 Division must have been a consequence of this document, among other

11 things.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a

14 number for this document.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 591.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 575 now.

20 Q. First of all, for the record, Witness, this is a daily report by

21 the Military Security Service of the 35th Division, is it not? The date

22 is the 18th of August, 1995. This is a document that you were shown by

23 the OTP during your testimony. You remember that, don't you?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on the lower

25 half of the page, Your Honours, so that the witness can jog his memory.

Page 4058

1 Q. You were shown this last paragraph by the OTP. It was about

2 psychological training. This is the next page in English.

3 You remember that you looked at this document, talking about the

4 psychological training of the 328th Mountain Brigade, the 3rd and 4th

5 Battalions, with the El Mudjahedin Detachment. You remember looking at

6 this document?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this one away now,

9 because I want the witness to look at a different document now in

10 connection with this one.

11 Could the witness now please be shown P571 [as interpreted].

12 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Vidovic, could you please repeat the number?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D571.

14 This is a document produced by the 3rd Corps Military Security

15 Department, the 10th of September, 1995. It was sent to the Security

16 Administration of the BH Army General Staff.

17 Q. Again, this is a document produced by your superior command, is it

18 not?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now go to page 2,

21 which is page 3 of the English.

22 Q. Witness, about midway down the page, it reads: "We are in

23 possession of reliable information that," and there is a reference to the

24 4th Battalion then. Midway down in the English, it says: "We are in

25 possession ..."

Page 4059

1 You see that, Witness? Can you please read that paragraph to

2 yourself? You can see the reference to the El Mudjahedin Detachment

3 there, can't you?

4 Witness, the reference is here to the 3rd and 4th Manoeuvre

5 Battalions. There was a reference to those in our previous documents a

6 while ago, wasn't there?

7 They were receiving psychological training at the hands of the El

8 Mudjahedin Detachment; right? There is reference here to the 328th

9 Brigade and these two battalions. You remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember that or do you agree that this document describes

12 the satisfaction on the part of the members of the 3rd and 4th Battalions

13 because of the way the El Mudjahedin Detachment treated the BH flag? Do

14 you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Further, there's a reference there to the fact that certain

17 individuals from the El Mudjahedin Detachment claimed before the soldiers

18 that this wasn't their flag, and that it should therefore be burned. Do

19 you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It goes on to say that they have no confidence in the army's

22 leadership and soldiers, and they, on the other hand, had to be trusted.

23 Have you heard of incidents such as these? Since this is a Security

24 Department document, you might be familiar with it.

25 A. Yes. This is something that we reported at the time to our

Page 4060

1 superior organ. The training of BH Army soldiers, alongside with the El

2 Mudjahedin Detachment soldiers, was organised in order to develop a

3 feeling of mutual trust; however, it turned out that because there were

4 things like these going on, precisely what's reported here, that what was

5 eventually achieved was quite the contrary, in fact.

6 Q. Does this document reflect the real situation, as far as

7 confidence in the army's leadership was concerned and also the way the

8 flag was treated by the El Mudjahedin Detachment?

9 A. Yes, I'm certain of that.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for

11 this document, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 592.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And now on to a different topic. I hope you can help us with it,

18 too. Would you agree with me that Zavidovici was a peculiar area during

19 the war because it remained isolated from the corps commander for a long

20 time and from the Supreme Staff; right?

21 A. Yes, because Zavidovici was, to all practical intents, in the

22 crossfire between the Republika Srpska Army, on the one hand, and the BH

23 Army, on the other, and then the Washington Agreement was signed in

24 February 1994. So, on the other side, there was the HVO, not the BH Army.

25 So Zavidovici remained under siege for quite a long time. It was a

Page 4061

1 sealed-off area.

2 Q. Isolated from the rest of the BH Army, to a large extent; would

3 that be a fair assessment?

4 A. Yes. Under those circumstances, it was very difficult to exercise

5 command over the army unit. It was very difficult to provide the

6 logistics and everything else that combat under those circumstances would

7 have required.

8 Q. You will agree with me that, under the circumstances, the civilian

9 authorities and the religious leaders had a powerful impact on life in the

10 area, in general, and the way the defence was organised, right, in

11 Zavidovici?

12 A. Yes, and I had a chance to see this for myself.

13 Q. Would you accept that the relations between the Mujahedin and the

14 civilian authorities in the Zavidovici area were much closer than the

15 relations between the El Mujahedin and the military authorities?

16 A. Yes. This could be concluded on the basis of different events, in

17 particular in view of the fact that the majority of the civilians joined

18 the El Mujahedin unit of their own volition.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can Exhibit number 509 be shown to

20 the witness, please, at this point.

21 Q. This is the Security Department of the 3rd Corps memo from the

22 12th of August, 1995, which speaks about the relations in the zone of the

23 35 Division of the KoV, of the land forces. This is again a document of

24 your superior command, is it not, Mr. Imamovic?

25 A. Yes, this is a document of the Security Service of the 3rd Corps.

Page 4062

1 Q. Do you agree that this information from the field was received by

2 the Security Service of the 3rd Corps, from the department, from the

3 section in which you also worked; that is to say, from the 35th Division?

4 A. Yes. This describes precisely the relations that I spoke about in

5 my previous answer.

6 Q. Yes. So please be so kind as to go through this document. I can

7 see that you are looking at it. Look at this particular part, where

8 reference is made to the El Mujahedin unit and the Asim Camdzic unit, and

9 I shall quote. It says: "In SDA speeches of individuals at religious

10 gatherings, they belittled the results of the army and glorified the

11 results of the Asim Camdzic unit and the El Mujahedin unit, which caused

12 mistrust among the civilians, among the citizens, in the Command of the

13 Army."

14 You are aware of these events, are you not? Does this document

15 actually reflect the actual situation in the field, in August 1995, that

16 is?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. Very well. So speeches of this kind by individuals, like the

19 sentence that I have just read out for you, were in fact support by the

20 civilian authorities to these units, were they not -- was it not?

21 A. You are right.

22 Q. Very well.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document can now

24 be put away, but I should like to show another document in connection with

25 this. This is document D572. Yes, thank you.

Page 4063

1 Q. Witness, please, I'm going to ask you first to take a look at the

2 signature at the end of this document. Do you recognise this signature?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. So this is the signature of the commander, Colonel Fadil

5 Hasanagic, is it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you scroll down the document,

8 please, so that we can take a look at it. Yes, that is okay.

9 Q. Witness, is this a document of the 19th of July, 1995, which is an

10 information sent to the Chief of Zavidovici Municipality, to the Chief of

11 the Public Security Service of Zavidovici, as well as to the Executive

12 Committee of the Party of Democratic Action of Zavidovici?

13 The SDA actually stands for the Party of Democratic Action, does

14 it not, Witness?

15 A. Yes. That is the highest organ of the Democratic -- Party of

16 Democratic Action in Zavidovici.

17 Q. Please, Witness, try to go through this document. It is not very

18 long, and I should then like to ask you a number of questions.

19 Do you agree that, by this document, Colonel Hasanagic addresses

20 the civilian authorities and informs them about excesses being committed

21 by the Asim Camdzic and El Mujahedin units; am I right?

22 A. Yes, you are right.

23 Q. It seems that you, in the Division - and I'm referring actually to

24 the Division Command - that you were aware of these problems with the El

25 Mujahid unit and the other unit, the Asim Camdzic, and of the fact that

Page 4064

1 these problems could be handled by civilian authorities, and that is why

2 the colonel is addressing the civilian authorities?

3 A. Yes. We were aware of that, but this is the only time, the only

4 instance when we actually addressed the civilian authorities on account of

5 those problems, for here it is stated at the end of the document that

6 those who are responsible for public law and order in the city, or rather,

7 throughout the municipality, that it was high time that they took measures

8 in order to put an end to such incidents.

9 Q. Very well. Would I be right to say that the Division expected a

10 solution from the political structures and from the Zavidovici

11 Municipality leadership? That is what appears to be the case on the basis

12 of this document.

13 A. Yes, because we understood when we realised that they had a much

14 greater influence on the unit.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

17 given an exhibit number.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 593.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, you will agree with me, will you not, that it would not

24 be usual in the command structure, in the command-and-control structure,

25 for the commander of, for instance, a division to inform the civilian

Page 4065

1 authorities of the problems that he has with his subordinates. He would

2 deal with them himself or within the chain of command and control, would

3 he not?

4 A. Yes. This is a unique case in military practice.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mrs. Vidovic, I have a

7 question.

8 Is the document that we saw which refers to the report, to the

9 relationships between the members of the El Mudjahedin Detachment and

10 civilian population, or is it a document that deals with the members of

11 this detachment and their relationship with members of the Bosnian Army

12 and the structure of command of the Army?

13 Could you possibly clarify this aspect?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not quite sure I understood you

15 well. The relation between the El Mujahedin and the command structures,

16 or the relation between the El Mujahid unit and the civilian structures?

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I'm trying

18 to understand. I want to know what this document deals with, exactly.

19 My feeling was that the colonel was referring or addressing the

20 civilian authorities in order for them to resolve the problems that

21 members of the El Mudjahedin Detachment were provoking within the civilian

22 population. Then, again, I may be mistaken, but I didn't think it was

23 about problems within the army. I thought it was problems within the

24 civilian population; therefore, he addresses civilian authorities.

25 Am I mistaken? Do I make a wrong interpretation of this document

Page 4066

1 or am I right in my assumption?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that these were

3 incidents that, as far as I could understand, were within the domain of

4 disturbances of the public law and order, by members of the El Mudjahedin

5 Detachment, that is why the commander of the 35th Division called upon the

6 civilian structures, both political and primarily the civilian police,

7 because this fell within their ambit of work; that is, the prevention of

8 disturbances of public law and order.

9 He called upon them to take an active part in suppressing this, to

10 put a definite end to such things.

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

13 was impotent to do anything about it.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. We didn't hear what was impotent to do

16 anything about that. Can you repeat that, please? Who was impotent or

17 what was impotent?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the 35th Division

19 was in no position to use the military police in order to prevent such

20 incidents.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, but it's not a question of he was in no

22 position; it was a question of it was not in his area of responsibility.

23 This is a civilian problem, isn't it? You have just explained that. It

24 didn't fall within his responsibility within the military?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

Page 4067

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, just one question in connection with your previous

4 answer: If you were, and you were a member of the 35th Division, if you

5 were, if you committed, that is to say, any offences vis a vis the

6 population as an individual, you would have fallen under military

7 authority or had been subject to action by military court, irrespective of

8 the fact that your actions targeted civilians; am I right?

9 A. I don't know what to say. Certainly, I would have been taken to

10 account, I would have borne some consequences, I would have answered to

11 both civil and military authorities for that conduct.

12 Q. Please. When members of a regular army unit engage in excesses of

13 any kind, for instance, they burglarise a store, they would have to answer

14 according to military regulations of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes. That would be a breach of military discipline.

16 Q. That's just it. So the fact that Hasanagic is addressing the

17 civilian authorities, turning to the civilian authorities because the El

18 Mujahedin unit is disturbing the public law and order, actually attests to

19 the fact that he is unable to control them within the chain of command and

20 is unable to take measures to stop them?

21 A. Yes, you are right.

22 Q. Thank you. I shall now move to a different topic that you have

23 testified about, and that is prisoners of war.

24 In making your statement about prisoners of war, you accepted that

25 the procedure with POWs was a prescribed one and that these regulations --

Page 4068

1 that people in the field were familiar with these regulations; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a number of documents demonstrating that

5 you were in touch with a number of prisoners held by the -- by members of

6 the El Mujahedin unit; and in your testimony, you described a brief

7 encounter them. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall just like the

10 witness to take a brief look at Exhibit 553. And until the document

11 appears, for the record, this is a document of a section of the Security

12 Service of the 35th Division from the 22nd of July, 1995, and it is

13 entitled "Report on Talk with POWs.

14 Q. Witness, in testifying about this document, you said that you had

15 a very brief interview with these prisoners on the 22nd of July, 1995; is

16 that correct? Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

19 put away now. Can the witness be shown Exhibit number 582 now, please.

20 Q. You will recall having seen this bulletin during your testimony,.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please scroll the document

22 down so the number of the bulletin can be seen, which is number 137, and

23 the date it bears, which is the 22nd of July, 1995. Can page 4, i.e.,

24 page 5 of the English version, be shown to the witness, Your Honours.

25 Q. Witness, please take a look at part of this midway paragraph. You

Page 4069

1 remember that the Prosecutor also drew your attention to it.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, it is the previous page

3 in the English version. This is the document, actually, the paragraph,

4 Your Honours, which starts with the words: "The 3rd Corps," i.e., the SVB

5 of the 3rd Corps.

6 Q. Witness, do you see it being stated here that 50 aggressor

7 soldiers have been liquidated and about 40 taken prisoners, among whom two

8 were doctors and one nurse? I should like to ask you, in connection with

9 this: Do you agree that this figure of 40 prisoners is, in fact,

10 exaggerated, and that you actually never heard of so large a number being

11 taken -- having been taken prisoner by the El Mujahedin unit in July 1995?

12 A. No, I never heard that. Actually, I was surprised when I saw this

13 document. Both the number of the liquidated people and the number of

14 people taken prisoners were surprising. I don't know that it was that

15 way.

16 Q. Do you agree that the figures about killed soldiers and soldiers

17 taken prisoners by a brigade would be sometimes blown up in order to

18 actually enhance the successes of the individual units, brigades?

19 A. Yes, I agree. False reporting was a problem that we had at the

20 time; false reporting on combat operations undertaken, that is.

21 Q. So you did report such problems to your superior command, did you

22 not?

23 A. Yes, we did, as far as I can recall.

24 Q. Please take a closer look at the last sentence, where it

25 says: "All the aggressor soldiers taken prisoner are being kept by the El

Page 4070

1 Mujahid unit, who for now will not allow access to them."

2 Please take a mental note of that sentence.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see that in the English version?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It is on the following page.

5 I apologise, Your Honours. It is there now.

6 Your Honours, may I continue?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may. Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

9 number 581.

10 Q. You'll see, Witness, this is also an information by the 3rd Corps

11 Military Security Service, sent to the General Staff Security

12 Administration on the 23rd of July, 1995, and it refers to the aggressor

13 soldiers. You will remember this document having also been shown to you

14 by the Prosecutor?

15 A. Yes, I do remember.

16 Q. And you remember -- do you remember that you said that this was an

17 information which was drawn up by you, or rather, it was just copied by

18 the 3rd Corps, and then sent on, forwarded on?

19 A. Yes, that is what I said. That's correct.

20 Q. You can see the names "Branko Sikanic, Igor Guljevatej,"

21 and "Sikanic." So this is information sent on the 23rd of July, 1995.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be scrolled down so

23 we can see the stamp, please.

24 Q. Yes, you can see this is a signature of Colonel Ekrem Alihodzic.

25 Witness, please take --

Page 4071

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- or rather, can we scroll down

2 this document so that the witness can see the number of this document.

3 Q. Please remember the number of this document, which is

4 03/1-163-292-1. Please remember that number.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Right. Can the witness now take a

6 look at document D573.

7 Q. Witness, a while ago, I drew your attention to this number; right?

8 First of all, do you agree this is a document produced by the Military

9 Security Administration the 26th of July, 1995, signed by General Jusuf

10 Jasarevic? You agree with all of this; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You do know who he is, the Brigadier-General Jusuf Jasarevic? You

13 knew of him at the time, didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you agree the document bears the following title "Interview

16 with Prisoners, Instruction"? You agree; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, look at this. In reference to your Document Number

19 03/1-163-292-1, the 23rd of July, 1995, this is the number that I told you

20 about a while ago. It's the same number, isn't it? "Information by the

21 Security Service of the 3rd Corps." This is a brief document. I see that

22 you've read it.

23 Do you agree that this document is providing instructions that

24 interviews should be conducted with prisoners and that the Military

25 Security Administration of the General Staff should be informed about the

Page 4072

1 results; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So you agree that the General Staff Administration reacted

4 immediately upon receiving this information on prisoners, received from

5 the 3rd Corps? A set of instructions came a mere two or three days later?

6 A. Yes, you're quite right.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number for this

8 document.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, before we leave this document, I'd

10 like the witness to explain to us: What is General Jasarevic asking here?

11 Apparently, he's asking to conduct detailed IR/informative interviews and

12 to inform the SVB Military Security Service about this. What is an

13 "IR/informative interview"?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Interview for the purposes of

15 obtaining information. This is an interview normally conducted by a

16 security officer from the Intelligence Department. They interview a POW.

17 They ask them about their personal details, which unit they belong to, the

18 circumstances of their capture; and among other things, this is also about

19 how POWs are treated during their captivity.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's what I thought. So this instruction was

21 addressed to the 3rd Corps. Do you recall having seen this instruction

22 being forwarded from the 3rd Corps to the 35th Division; that is to say,

23 to your office?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't, not specifically, but I

25 assume that this interview was conducted by members of the Military

Page 4073

1 Security Service and the Intelligence Service of the 3rd Corps. This is

2 merely an assumption on my part, though.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Why would the 3rd Corps suddenly intervene in

4 this? I mean, the original information about the detained POWs came from

5 the 35th Division and was transmitted through the 3rd Corps to the General

6 Staff. Now, the General Staff then writes back and says, "Please make

7 sure that these people are being properly interviewed, including

8 interviewed about their state of health."

9 This instruction then goes back to the 3rd Corps but, apparently,

10 is never passed on to the 35th Division, and my question is: Why not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, for that reason, also, you would have no way

13 of knowing whether these interviews were actually ever carried out?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, I don't.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the following document

17 may assist us -- or rather, can we please have a number for this document

18 first?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we please just let you know first that you're

20 ten minutes beyond the time taken by the Prosecution. I just want to know

21 how long it will take you to finish with this witness.

22 The document is admitted into evidence. May we please have an

23 exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 594.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, how far are you?

Page 4074

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, between ten and 15

2 minutes, certainly not more, if I may.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, madam.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

5 Could the witness please be shown PT2447, PT2447. It's a mistake

6 in the transcript, 2447.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, this is a report by the Military Security Service of the

10 3rd Corps, dated the 25th of July, 1995. This is entitled "Results of

11 Interviews with Captured Aggressor Soldiers." I would now like you to

12 look at these names: "Branko Sikanic, Velibor Trivicevic, Igor

13 Guljevatej."

14 Before we move on to the next page, if you could please try and

15 explain, just above these names, it reads: "Security organ of the

16 Military Security Service of the 35th Division, while interviewing

17 captured aggressor soldiers, obtained the following information."

18 You see the date there, the 25th of July; right? So this is a new

19 interview in relation to the one that you mentioned that occurred on the

20 22nd of July.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please pull

22 the document up a little.

23 Q. Witness, could you please look at this, the next page in English.

24 Could you please look at this, and, again, it says: "Based on such

25 interviews as were conducted by the security organ of the 35th Division,

Page 4075

1 the following information was obtained."

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could please

3 turn the page in the electronic version, in the B/C/S as well and the

4 English, too.

5 Q. Look at this page now, Witness, please. Will you agree with me

6 that there is a whole sequence of details being described here, details

7 that were discussed with these prisoners?

8 Do you agree that there is some information here concerning enemy

9 units and various aspects of their activity?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see the next page,

11 Your Honours.

12 Q. Have you seen any references at all to the El Mudjahedin

13 Detachment? Would you not agree with me that it, indeed, appears that the

14 35th Division conducted a detailed interview with these prisoners, and as

15 a result forwarded a report to the 3rd Corps on this? Was it you, was it

16 someone else, and do you remember an interview like that being conducted

17 with these prisoners?

18 A. I don't remember this particular interview at all. I certainly

19 wasn't the one who conducted it, and I'm not sure if anyone else did.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that there is not a single reference to

21 the El Mudjahedin Detachment in this document?

22 A. I don't think I notice that word being used.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you look in the English at page

24 4, the paragraph, the topmost paragraph as appears now, it says: "The

25 Battalion Commander escaped by stealing a medical vehicle and leaving us

Page 4076

1 with six wounded to be captured by the Mujahedin and the Army."

2 There is a reference to Mujahedin.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, quite true.

4 Q. This is something that one of the prisoners is telling us; right?

5 It's a story by --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking for your interpretation. I'm just

7 saying there is a reference to Mujahedin. That's what I'm saying.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, there is reference there to Mujahedin and not to the

10 detachment itself; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. My question to you now: This document does not in any

13 way suggest that the El Mudjahedin Detachment was now banning anyone from

14 accessing prisoners. This document doesn't even tell us that these

15 prisoners are still in the hand of El Mudjahedin Detachment.

16 Is there a single reference to anything like that at all in this

17 document, Witness?

18 A. No, not to the extent that I've been able to read it.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could just go to

20 the last page in English.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam, after that page, will it be convenient to go

22 for a break?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, oh, my apologies, Your Honours.

24 Thank you very much, indeed. All right, we'll press on. This is an

25 important document, or at least that's what I believe. My apologies

Page 4077

1 there.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and we'll come back at quarter

3 to 11.00.

4 Court adjourned.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have a number

9 for the document that we looked at before the break.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number 594.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think we already had 594.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We already had 594, sir.

15 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, 595.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. D435 is our next

19 document. This is my last document, and I have several questions about

20 it.

21 Q. Before the English comes up, for the record, do you agree this is

22 a document produced by the 35th Division. It was produced in Zavidovici on

23 the 17th of August, 1995, and the title is: "The Situation concerning

24 Combat Readiness of the Command and Units of the 35th Division, KoV."

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at the next page,

Page 4078

1 please, the last page of the document, the signature? It is the last page

2 of the English, as well. We see a name there.

3 Q. Witness, this is your name, isn't it? You saw the first page of

4 the document, too. Based on what you've seen, is this a document that you

5 produced?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please go back

8 to page 1.

9 Q. Witness, can you please focus on paragraph 2. It says: "Having

10 analysed developments in the area of responsibility of the 328th Brigade."

11 Can you please read that. I will give you some time to read that to

12 yourself.

13 It seems, Witness, doesn't it, based on this document, that you

14 looked into the situation prevailing in the 328th Brigade, did you not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From the security aspect, the brigade posed a problem for you, at

17 least that's what the present document seems to indicate, does it not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It seems that in paragraph 2 of the document, you concluded,

20 having analysed the development on the 17th of August, 1995, that the

21 command and control -- the chain of command and control in this brigade

22 had failed completely; is that right?

23 A. We established that there were certain problems, and that would

24 seem to be the inference, yes.

25 Q. You grow on to write there is no control on how any measures

Page 4079

1 ordered are being implemented in this brigade; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. You go on to state that there are severe problems concerning false

4 reporting. Is this what you were talking about a while ago during your

5 evidence, the problem of false reporting?

6 A. Yes, you're right.

7 Q. You go on to state that certain officers appointed to important

8 establishment posts do not meet even the bear minimum of moral and

9 technical requirements?

10 A. Yes, that was one of the problems we are facing.

11 Q. These appointments were effected directly by politicians, were

12 they not, appointments to the 328th Brigade; would you accept that?

13 A. Yes. Their influence over the command-and-control system was

14 quite obvious. An example such as the ones mentioned in my report, they

15 clearly indicate that.

16 Q. Does this document reflect what the relations were and what the

17 situation was in the area covered by the units of the 35th Division? You

18 made this analysis based on facts; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You state here that the 35th Division Command is obviously

21 divided. Was that a fact?

22 A. Yes, there were divisions, roughly speaking.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 2 for the benefit

24 of the Chamber, please; page 2 of the English, page 2 of the B/C/S as

25 well.

Page 4080

1 Q. On this page, you go on to describe the internal relations within

2 the Division. Have a look, please. You say that the Chief of Staff never

3 went to meetings, that's all, the meetings at the Command. Is that true?

4 A. There were certain time periods when the Chief of Staff had no

5 communication with the others. Mostly, he communicated with me.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a

8 number for this document.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, what does "RIK" stand for, sir?

10 On the previous page, there's an abbreviation called "RIK."

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Control and command.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

14 exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 596.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

18 questions for this witness.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

20 Madam Sartorio.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Just a couple of questions, Your Honour. Thank

22 you.

23 Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

24 Q. I'd like to refer back to the document that was shown to you by

25 Defence counsel of the 19th of July of 1995, where Colonel Hasanagic wrote

Page 4081

1 to the Chief of the Zavidovici Municipality regarding the public security

2 situation.

3 Are you aware of any time where the -- when the SJB were

4 subordinated to the military?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we please get to know what the "SJB" is?

6 MS. SARTORIO: It's on the document, Your Honour. It's the

7 "Public Security Station" in the town of Zavidovici. I don't believe

8 this document was admitted in evidence, and I apologise, I don't know if

9 the Defence, my learned colleague, could assist me in getting the"D"

10 number, so we could bring the document back up. I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document of the 19th of July?


13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that D572? D572 is Exhibit 593.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, 593. Could we -- that's the document.

15 Q. Do you recall that document, sir, or would you like to see it

16 again?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please recall it on the screen, Madam, and let the

18 witness see it.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Can the witness be shown Exhibit 593. Okay.

20 I'll repeat my question.

21 Q. My question, sir, is: Were you aware or are you aware of any time

22 when the SJB, the Public Security Station, was subordinated to the ARBiH

23 in 1995?

24 A. In principle, the civilian police was a component of the BH armed

25 forces. Exceptionally, it could be used in dangerous situations, or

Page 4082

1 rather, in combat operations. It was at such times that it was

2 subordinated to the army commands and units.

3 As for upholding public order, it was not specifically

4 subordinated to any local army commands.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. This document may be put away.

6 Q. Sir, you were also asked by Defence counsel, at line 15 -- page

7 15, line 16, there was a reference to the SDA party and speeches that were

8 given. Do you recall that document?

9 A. I would like to have a look, if it's no trouble.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. If we could go back to, excuse me, line 15.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's 509, just

12 to speed things up.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I appreciate that. May the witness be

14 shown that exhibit, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.


17 Q. Do you recall being asked some questions about this document, sir?

18 A. Yes, a while ago.

19 Q. Now, could you tell us who at that time was the overall leader of

20 the SDA or the Party for Democratic Action?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just get when you say "overall leader," do

22 you recall a national leader or a leader in Zavidovici?

23 MS. SARTORIO: The national leader.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The national leader. Who was the national leader

25 of the SDA at the time, sir?

Page 4083

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your

3 Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam.

5 Judge.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: No, thank you.


8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Imamovic, I'd like to go back to the issue of

11 the reports that went from the 35th Division to the 3rd Corps and further

12 up about the situation of the prisoners of war.

13 When we were shown, by Defence counsel, the reports of 25th July

14 1995 from the 3rd Corps back to the Supreme Command, it seemed as if an

15 interview had, in fact, been -- a second interview had, in fact, been

16 conducted by the 35th Division. I was puzzled by a remark that you

17 gave -- a comment that you gave to that report because I think you said

18 something in the meaning that you didn't know whether that interview had,

19 in fact, ever taken place.

20 Maybe I misunderstood you, but I just wanted to confirm if you

21 were implying in any way that the report was fake.

22 A. No. This is not what I wanted to say, but I really do not

23 remember. That was such a long time ago, 12 years ago. I cannot recall

24 anything in connection with that report.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I realise that. The issue is whether you were

Page 4084

1 aware of this second interview being made and that surprises me, and let

2 the record show that you nodded negatively, your answer was "no."

3 The issue is how a second interview could have taken place without

4 you knowing. You were assistant commander of Security. I'm certain that

5 you must have been informed about a second interview being made. If you

6 simply can't remember, then that's fine, you just say so; but if you have

7 any --

8 A. I really cannot remember.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

10 Now, let's move a little further back in relation to the three

11 Serbian prisoners who were taken by the El Mujahid Detachment, because you

12 have testified that you actually had a chance to see these three gentlemen

13 at a very brief occasion. I think it was on the 22nd of July in Livade,

14 and you told us that they were very scared?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Was it your impression that they had been

17 subjected to mistreatment?

18 A. Well, I have already said at that moment I, myself, was taken

19 aback by the entire situation, and I really cannot remember all the

20 details. I was under the strong -- I was strongly impressed by this

21 entire event and especially by the guard who was standing behind me with

22 his rifle, so that I cannot recall all the details.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I accept that, Mr. Imamovic, but the issue at

24 stake here is that somebody is now being accused of not ensuring that a

25 possible violation of the rules was being properly prosecuted; and in

Page 4085

1 order for prosecution to be initiated, someone would have to make the

2 first note that mistreatment had taken place.

3 So my question to you is, therefore, whether you were aware, when

4 you met these people, that they had been subject to mistreatment. Did you

5 see them? Did they have wounds or bruises that you could see?

6 A. I was not aware of that, nor did I see anything of the kind. I

7 don't even remember in what way they were tied, whether with hands in

8 front or at their backs. The situation was tense.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you at any point later on become aware of

10 mistreatment of prisoners of war being held in detention by the El Mujahid

11 Detachment or by the other El Mujahedin groups?

12 A. I never saw anything of the kind, nor can I confirm that, but

13 there were different rumours which actually were unverified stories,

14 information.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Imamovic, I have to ask you to be painfully

16 precise here. You said you never saw anything, and I understand this to

17 mean that you never saw any Mujahid combatant mistreating a prisoner.

18 That, I accept, of course.

19 But did you see any of the prisoners at this time or at any later

20 time having signs of being mistreated?

21 A. I cannot recall. No, I didn't see that. I had no occasion to see

22 it.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: What did you hear? What exactly were the rumours

24 that you said you heard?

25 A. Well, mostly, these rumours, when the combat operations started in

Page 4086

1 September 1995, referred to the fact that they were given a number of

2 prisoners. And as I've already said, I never saw them and I did not know

3 who had taken them prisoner, in what place, et cetera, apart from those

4 that had been escorted to Zenica by the military police.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: But did you hear of any mistreatment of prisoners

6 of war?

7 A. Nothing in particular, no particular mistreatment. Perhaps they

8 were not treated fair, but I did not hear of any particular mistreatment.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were you in any way instructed or otherwise told

10 not to raise the issue of possible mistreatment of prisoners of war being

11 detained by the El Mujahid Detachment or other Mujahedin groups?

12 Was there any understanding that this should not be included in

13 your reports?

14 A. No. I never received any such instructions.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: I know that you never received such an instruction

16 on any formal level. My question was more soft: Was there any

17 understanding that this was not to be passed on to the next level?

18 A. No. I was not warned of this in any way, nor did anyone impress

19 it upon me, that that is the way things should be.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if your superior in the security organ

21 of the 35th Division, did he ever have a chance to see the prisoners of

22 war at the Mujahedin camp?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: What do you mean by you don't know that?

25 A. I don't know whether he ever saw prisoners of war in the El

Page 4087

1 Mujahedin unit's camp. I never talked about it with him.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, sir, excuse me, the security organ was a

3 small unit, as I recall. You were, what, four or five people in that

4 unit, and it would appear to me to be strange if you didn't talk about

5 what was happening.

6 A. I did not have occasion frequently to speak with my superior. The

7 communication we had evolved mainly via reports.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: But were you not sitting next-door to him? You

9 were the assistant commander, and didn't your commander have his office

10 just next to yours?

11 A. My superior in the security organ was in Zenica, and I was in

12 Zavidovici.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Oh, I see. You see, what I'm trying to elicit is

14 that despite the fact that there were rumours of prisoners of war being

15 taken and possibly also rumours that they were being mistreated, it was

16 all happening right under your nose and nobody discovered it. Nobody

17 found it necessary to pass any of this information on to anywhere else, so

18 nothing was ever reported on possible mistreatment.

19 It surprises me that all the documents that we have seen on

20 reports about these prisoners, these three prisoners and other prisoners

21 taken by the El Mujahid Detachment or other El Mujahedin groups, in none

22 of the reports do we find any reference to mistreatment being made, and I

23 just wonder how that could be.

24 Was there some sort of, as I said, understanding that this was not

25 to be passed on, or was it accepted, but your answers to the questions

Page 4088

1 that I've put to you is you didn't know about it, and so I guess I can't

2 take it any further, unless you're able to clarify further.

3 A. One can't say that this happened in the city of Zavidovici. In

4 the town of Zavidovici where I was, the combat operations front was huge.

5 It was a number of kilometres around Zavidovici, so that we couldn't be

6 everywhere at all times. So there was a vast possibility for things to be

7 hidden, for anything to be hidden in so large an area.

8 Prohibiting members of the El Mujahid Detachment to access the

9 area, or other groups of Afro-Asian origin, actually contributed to the

10 fact that we could not obtain true information, and that is why I can only

11 talk about what we saw with our own eyes or were able to verify then.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: The interview that apparently was made with the

13 three Serbian prisoners by the 35th Division, and of which we saw the

14 report dated 25th July, would that have been an interview made by the

15 intelligence unit of the 35th Division?

16 A. I don't know. It is possible.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: But if an interview would have been taken by the

18 35th Division of a prisoner of war and it wasn't your section, the

19 security section, could it have been any other unit or section within the

20 35th Division than the intelligence unit?

21 A. I don't know. It could have been from the 3rd Corps.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. So you're suggesting that the interview

23 might have taken -- might have been carried out by the 3rd Corps and not

24 by the 35th Division?

25 A. I'm not suggesting. It's just that I don't know. I can't recall

Page 4089

1 that.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, last week, on Thursday, at page 3967, starting

4 at line 22, you were asked a quest question: "Now, did you also send a

5 copy of the report to the commander of the 35th Division, in addition to

6 sending it to the security organ of the 3rd Corps?"

7 Your answer was: "From time to time. Mostly, it was just an

8 informative report, but the commander of the 35th Division was informed

9 through regular briefings or in other ways."

10 My question to you is: When you said, "From time to time," are we

11 to understand that you had no set procedure for reporting?

12 A. There existed procedures but the commander was there, and we

13 informed him at briefings, talks, talking to him, depending on the event,

14 whether it was of substantive importance or not.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean by, "From time to time"?

16 A. As the need arose, and depending on whether it was the -- the

17 event was of essential importance so that the commander would have to be

18 informed in order to bring an adequate decision.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I find that inconsistent with what you say,

20 inconsistent with the statement that there was a set procedure. If you're

21 going to report only as the need arises, then there is no set procedure.

22 I cannot understand these two side by side. Either you have a system of

23 reporting which is regular, like we have been shown here during this

24 trial, what are called daily combat reports or daily reports.

25 And, of course, if there is nothing significant to report, then

Page 4090

1 you report that, and there was nothing significant to report but you don't

2 just keep quiet. If you say you report as the need arose, then there

3 cannot be any standard procedure for reporting, and I want to get from

4 you, sir, what took place on the ground.

5 A. Mainly, there existed procedures, which does not, however, mean

6 that they were always observed.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: These procedures were not always observed. Okay.

8 You have just been saying, in response to a question by Judge

9 Harhoff, that you heard rumours of prisoners of war being kept by the El

10 Mudjahedin Detachment; am I right to say that? Is that the rumour you

11 heard?

12 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,

14 this witness never mentioned having heard rumours of the El Mudjahedin

15 Detachment saying --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking him to confirm if I'm right

17 or I'm wrong.

18 Sir, was I right or wrong? What rumour did you hear?

19 A. I heard rumours that there were prisoners. But as to who took

20 them, at what place and time, this is -- we did not have that kind of

21 information. We didn't hear anything about that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. My question to you, then, is: Did you

23 investigate those rumours?

24 A. To the extent possible under the circumstances, we did.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you do to investigate? Just tell us

Page 4091

1 exactly what your investigations involved.

2 A. Well, my collaborators sought, through their collaborators who

3 were in the field, in the units, to find out as much as possible, to

4 gather as much information as possible about what had happened.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what were the results of those findings out or

6 gathering of information? Can we get what are the reports?

7 A. I left the area very soon after the commencement of the combat

8 operations and I assumed a different duty, so that I do not know what the

9 subsequent reports were.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who are these collaborators of yours who sought

11 information, and from which collaborators did they seek this information?

12 A. My collaborators in the security organ is whom I meant, and there

13 were -- they were three or four officers who cooperated in a certain way

14 with members of the B and H Army who were in the units, who were on the

15 ground, et cetera.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, sir, the reports of those collaborators should

17 be there, whether or not you were there for a short while or whether or

18 not you left shortly thereafter.

19 A. I don't know whether there exist any because I wasn't there. I

20 didn't see any.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you show us any request that you made to your

22 collaborators to investigate this, at least at the time of initiating the

23 investigation? You were still there, according to what you are saying.

24 A. I don't know which request you are referring to, but this was a

25 regular activity of all the people in the terrain, in the field, to

Page 4092

1 collect such information. There did not need to be a particular issued

2 request to that effect.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, when you say you don't understand what I mean

4 by "request," let me refer you to the question I asked you a little

5 earlier.

6 My question was: "What did you do to investigate? Just tell us

7 exactly what your investigations involved."

8 You said: "Well, my collaborators sought, through their

9 collaborators who were in the field, in the units, to find out as much as

10 possible."

11 Now, by "request," I mean your initiation of the investigations.

12 Obviously, my question was: What did you do to investigate? And you said

13 your collaborators sought. You must have, then, initiated that

14 investigation.

15 A. Well, the request itself, what to submit, all information about

16 important security-related developments in the field. It's not like

17 anybody was being asked to do something specific. They all knew what

18 their jobs were.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What surprises me is that your job was security,

20 and you don't seem to remember anything that has to do with the security

21 of prisoners of war. You hear rumours. There doesn't seem to be anything

22 that is done to find out whether the rumours are fact or fiction. This is

23 your prime responsibility.

24 A. This was just a single element in our job, and we had a lot of

25 other things to do as well.

Page 4093

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, it may be a single element, but it is an

2 important element, is it not?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Let's go to another topic.

5 You just told, again, the Court a little earlier, when you were

6 being asked by the Judge here, that you cannot remember whether the

7 prisoners of war that you found in Livade were tied with their hands in

8 front or at the back.

9 Can you tell us more about the condition in which you found these

10 people? You told us that you, yourself, were fearful in there. What

11 condition did you find these people in?

12 A. Well, as I said, when I entered that small room, in one corner,

13 there was a large group of prisoners; and in the other, a smaller group.

14 They were packed tight together and seated on the floor. They were

15 obviously very scared.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're saying they were attached together. They

17 were attached together, you were saying?

18 A. In fact, huddled together. I didn't even notice if they were

19 restrained in any way.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have told us already that they were restrained,

21 but you don't know whether they were tied in front or at the back, their

22 hands?

23 A. Well, I meant both groups. I'm not sure if all of them were

24 restrained. I don't remember.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, sir, this is again what surprises me. What

Page 4094

1 had you gone to do there as a person responsible for the security? Why

2 did you bother to go to that building, if you can't remember the condition

3 in which you found these people?

4 A. I just tried to see them, to talk to them.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: With what purpose in mind, what for?

6 A. Simply to see them, to take their details, to record them;

7 however, I was soon bruskily interrupted and driven away.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But let me just find out, sir, with respect to

9 prisoners of war, what were your responsibilities as an official in the

10 army responsible for security?

11 A. It was the military police who were responsible for taking them to

12 the reception centre in Zenica, at least according to the procedure.

13 Whenever there were prisoners, it was the job of the military police.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to interrupt that answer because it's not

15 answering my question. Can you please answer my question? I can repeat

16 it, if you want me to.

17 A. I don't think it was my responsibility to take them there or hand

18 them over to the reception centre; me personally.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, sir, you are not answering my question.

20 Please answer my question.

21 Do you want me to repeat my question?

22 A. Yes, please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm saying, as an official responsible for security

24 in the army, what, if any, were your responsibilities vis a vis prisoners

25 of war?

Page 4095

1 A. The responsibilities of the security organ were to coordinate

2 police work, to direct police work in that activity as well, taking POWs

3 to wherever they were being taken to.

4 What could I do? I could record their names. I could inform my

5 superior officer, who could then possibly enlist the assistance of the

6 military police so that they could wrap up the job. That was my

7 understanding of my own role.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me ask you the same question slightly

9 differently.

10 Was it not part of your responsibility, sir, when you go and see

11 prisoners of war, wherever they may be, to make a specific note of their

12 condition?

13 A. I wrote down what I saw.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is it that you wrote down, sir? What is it

15 that you saw?

16 A. Again, when I saw them, they were scared.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I said, "in what condition were they?"

18 A. I'm not sure how else to put this. They were scared, huddled

19 together.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's all you can remember about them, about their

21 condition?

22 A. I wasn't very much better than that myself with that guard behind

23 my back, who was quite jittery.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand.

25 A. I was just as scared as they were.

Page 4096

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand, sir.

2 A. This was the first time I -- this was the first time I encountered

3 any prisoners, and I really can't say more than that.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I'm saying. You can't tell us any more

5 than you observed that they were scared, and you are an official

6 responsible for security.

7 Thank you very much.

8 Any questions from the Prosecution?

9 MS. SARTORIO: I have one, Your Honours, a follow-up to Judge

10 Harhoff's question where he asked the witness whether the intelligence

11 service interviewed the prisoner, and what the witness said.

12 I would like to refer back to Exhibit 595, if I may. If the

13 witness could be shown 595, just the first page, I'll wait for the

14 English.

15 Further Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

16 Q. The first full sentence, sir, of the body of the document says:

17 "The 35th Ground Force Division, Military Security Division, Security

18 Organ, in the interview with captured aggressor soldiers, obtained the

19 following information and data."

20 So, when Judge Harhoff was asking you questions, does this refresh

21 your memory, that it was your organ that interviewed these witnesses and

22 not the intelligence organ?

23 A. As I said, I don't remember this information, and I can't tell you

24 who talked to these prisoners. At least based on this document, I can't

25 remember.

Page 4097

1 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Sartorio.

3 Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions for the witness, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

7 Sir, that brings us to the conclusion of your testimony. Thank

8 you for having come here to testify. You are excused. You may stand

9 down.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, may I make a suggestion, that we take

13 our next break at this point in time and then we convene at 12.15 and sit

14 through for a full 90 minutes with the following witness, if that would be

15 acceptable.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sit for 90 minutes with the following witness?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, so we have a full go. Ms. Sartorio will lead

18 the witness. It might be preferable to go straightforward with a full 90

19 minutes, which would then take us to 1345.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure whether the recording or the

21 interpreters, whoever it is, are able to go to sit for 90 minutes at a go.

22 We'll have to find out about that.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any contribution to make on that

25 suggestion, Madam Vidovic?

Page 4098

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not at all, Your Honours. We

2 agree.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We will then sit 90 minutes later.

4 Court adjourned. Come back at quarter past 12.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we move into private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4099











11 Pages 4099-4100 redacted. Private session















Page 4101

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.

12 MS. SARTORIO: I'll be directing this witness, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MS. SARTORIO: I believe he needs to take the oath, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. May you please make the declaration, sir.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


19 [The witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

22 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

23 Q. Sir, please tell us your full name.

24 A. My name is Alija, Ismet. "Alija" is my family name, and my first

25 name is "Ismet."

Page 4102

1 Q. What is your date of birth, sir?

2 A. I was born on the 20th of June, 1959.

3 Q. And in what municipality and country do you live, currently

4 reside?

5 A. Novo Sarajevo Municipality, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. And what is your current occupation, sir?

7 A. I work at a faculty.

8 Q. Now, sir, were you a member of the Army of the Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina; and if so, would you please briefly tell the Chamber

10 about your military experience, what positions you held, and the dates you

11 held those positions?

12 A. I was a member of the BH Army, that's true, between the 10th of

13 April, 1992 and my retirement in 2004. Throughout that time, the BH Army

14 was transformed into the Federation Army, and then eventually it was

15 named "The Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16 As for my posts, duties, I was in operations and training organ

17 attached to the regional staff of the Territorial Defence between the 10th

18 of April and sometime around the 1st of September, 1992. After that, the

19 1st Corps had just been set up. I was appointed the head of the

20 operations and training organ of the 1st Corps. I remained in that

21 position until - I can't remember exactly how long - but I think sometime

22 around July 1993.

23 I was then appointed Chief of Staff of the 1st Corps, and I

24 remained in that position until the end of October 1993.

25 From the 1st of November, give or take a day or two, I was deputy

Page 4103

1 commander of the 6th Corps. I remained in that position until February

2 1994.

3 After that, I became deputy commander of the 4th Corps. I

4 remained in that position until February 1995.

5 After that, I was head of the Department for Operative Planning,

6 and I remained in that position until June 1997.

7 After that, I became the BH's military attache to Turkey, and I

8 remained in that position until 2000.

9 In 2000, I, again, became head of the Operations Department. I

10 remained in that position until 2002.

11 Between 2002 and my retirement in 2004, I was Chief of Staff for

12 Training -- for Training and Doctrine. Those were my duties in the BH

13 Army.

14 I must point out again, for a while it, became the Army of the

15 Federation, and then it was eventually named "the Armed Forces of Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina." So it went through several transformations throughout

17 this time.

18 Q. Thank you, sir, for that detailed and comprehensive answer about

19 your military background. I would like to concentrate our questions on

20 the time period in which you said that you were head of the Department for

21 Operative Planning; and, particularly, we're going to concentrate on the

22 spring and summer of 1995.

23 Tell us, what is the Department for Operative Planning? What was

24 it then?

25 A. Are you referring to 1995 to 1996, that time interval?

Page 4104

1 Q. Yes. I'm actually limiting the time frame between April of 1995

2 and October of 1995. What function did the Department for Operative

3 Planning serve, and what level was it on in terms of the whole

4 administration?

5 A. The Operative Planning Department was comprised within the

6 Operative Planning Administration. It is one of its departments. Its

7 duty was to monitor the situation in the theatre of war, to analyse it, to

8 submit proposals to the head of the administration, to draw up individual

9 documents on the orders of the head of the administration, to draw up

10 certain orders, to prepare monthly, quarterly, and annual coordination

11 plans.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I please interrupt. Sir, do you have a piece

13 of paper before you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have one.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you reading from it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a lot of papers in front of

17 me, as I am consulting them, but I don't have to, if I cannot.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The idea here, sir, is that you try and testify

19 from memory. So to the extent that you may need to refresh your memory

20 from documents, we've got to be aware of that. Thank you so much.

21 Yes, Madam Sartorio.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Okay. First of all, let's talk about the Operative Planning

24 Administration; and, in this regard, I'd like to show you a diagram that

25 we looked at during proofing, so that you can put this administration into

Page 4105

1 context for the Chamber; and then I want to talk to you specifically about

2 the Operative Planning Department of that administration so that --

3 because, otherwise, there may be confusion for the rest of the time.

4 MS. SARTORIO: So may the witness please be shown P01839, and I

5 actually have hard copies of the organisational chart in both B/C/S and

6 English because it may not be easy to read on the screen, if that would be

7 acceptable.

8 It's toward the end of the document, which, again, I'd prefer to

9 put the plan on the ELMO. I think it would be a lot easier. Thank you.

10 The translation -- unfortunately, the translation copy into

11 English doesn't look like this, and it's more of -- more boxes, not

12 organised. So I think we'll have to suffice with the B/C/S version and

13 ask the witness to identify the different departments, if he may.

14 Would that be acceptable?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, Madam.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, using this diagram, the president is at the top, the

18 Presidency; is that correct?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let the witness testify.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. At the very top in the middle, could you show us where the

22 Presidency level is on this diagram?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask him what it is.

24 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

25 Q. Sir, do you recognise this diagram?

Page 4106

1 A. Yes. I do recognise this diagram, although I haven't seen it very

2 often.

3 Q. Can you tell us what this diagram at least purports to be, in your

4 opinion?

5 A. This is a diagram of the structure of the Army of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, can you point out and put a number -- you can

8 write on the ELMO with a pen, if you would - if the usher may help the

9 witness - where the Presidency is?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't testify. Let him point out for us, and let

11 him tell us what he sees. Don't tell him what it is.

12 MS. SARTORIO: I understand, Your Honour. I'm trying to save time

13 because I'm not sure this is contested, in terms of this, but I don't want

14 to ask him about every single box on this diagram because that will take

15 all day. So I'm just trying to -- this is for an illustration so the

16 Chamber --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just ask him, "What is that box, the top-most box?"

18 Let him tell us what it is, ma'am.

19 MS. SARTORIO: All right.

20 Q. Sir, what is the top-most box, please?

21 A. The top-most box is the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, as the Supreme Command.

23 Q. Could you put a "1" on that box, please?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. Now, the box below it, could you tell us what that box

Page 4107

1 is?

2 A. That is the Supreme Command Staff, which is headed by a commander.

3 Q. Number 2, please.

4 A. [Marks]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That "2" looks like a "1."


7 Q. Could you make that a little more clear, sir, the "2"? Who is the

8 commander at this point, at this level, sir?

9 A. [Marks]

10 I'm not quite sure what the date of this diagram is because the

11 first commander was Sefer Halilovic, who then was the Chief of Staff, and

12 the commandership was assumed by Rasim Delic.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. I'm hearing some echo somewhere. I

14 don't know whether I'm the only one. Can we ask them to keep quiet and

15 talk a little further away?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Security?



19 Q. Sir, my questions are limited, unless I specify differently, from

20 April to October of 1995. So who was the commander at that level at that

21 time?

22 A. Yes. I understand you completely, but then this scheme is not

23 okay, because it says the Staff of the Supreme Command; and in the

24 interval which you referred to, according to my information, the commander

25 was General Rasim Delic. But I should like to emphasise that this

Page 4108

1 diagram, which you have given me, is not clear sufficiently.

2 Q. Well, why don't you tell us what isn't clear about this diagram.

3 A. It says here "the Staff of the Supreme Command," and below it is

4 the General Staff of the army.

5 Q. What is your testimony as to what was contained in that box? What

6 level, what persons?

7 A. I would not comment on that. I'm just commenting on this

8 particular diagram. The commander was General Delic, and the Chief of

9 Staff was General Halilovic, Sefer Halilovic. As in this particular time

10 the commander of the General Staff, General Rasim Delic, was the

11 commander.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, on this diagram, do you see the Operations

13 Planning Administration?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Could you put a number "3" by that?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And to whom did this administration report directly to?

18 A. The administration reported to the Staff, to the Chief of Staff,

19 to the Staff of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, headed by

20 the Chief of Staff; so directly to the Chief of Staff, who is here, this

21 person. [Indicates]

22 Q. Could you put a "4" there, please, and tell us who that person was

23 from April to October of 1995?

24 A. [Marks]

25 The Chief of Staff was General Enver Hadzihasanovic at the time,

Page 4109

1 and Brigadier-General Asim Dzambasovic was the head of administration.

2 Q. Now, within the administration, you mentioned that you were head

3 of the, I believe you said, Operative Planning Department; is that

4 correct? I believe that's what you said.

5 A. Yes. This administration has its elements, its structural units.

6 One of them is here, and also here, the Department for Operative Planning,

7 which would be somewhere around here. [Indicates] I was the Chief of

8 that unit, of that department.

9 Q. So for this box, could you put a number "5." Is that box one

10 department or several departments?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Number 5 stands for one department.

13 Q. That was the department of which you were the chief?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Thank you. Sorry. Was there also another name for the Operative

16 Planning Department at the time?

17 A. No. As far as I can recall, no, there wasn't.

18 Q. We'll see some documents. Okay. Now, what were your duties as

19 Chief of the Operative Planning Department?

20 A. My duties were the daily monitoring of the situation.

21 Q. Daily monitoring of what, the situation?

22 A. Of the situation at the front by way of reports which came in --

23 which came to the Operations Centre; analyses of the situation, consummate

24 with the reports that arrived at the Operations Centre; writing specific

25 documents and orders on the orders of the head of the administration; the

Page 4110

1 drawing up of monthly, quarterly, and annual plans; the preparation of

2 coordination plans; and other daily activities concerning the work of this

3 particular department, falling within its ambit.

4 Q. And where was the Operative Centre located? It was within the

5 administration, so where physically was this entity located?

6 A. This body was part of this department. [Marks]

7 Q. What do you mean by "this body"? That's your Operative Centre

8 right there you just indicated?

9 A. I have just drawn in, as part of this department, there was an

10 Operations Centre. So we have the administration, department, centre.

11 Q. And you were the deputy of the department, correct, which is

12 number 5? I see the Judges --

13 A. No. I was the chief, the head of that department.

14 Q. All right. Sir, I want to make the diagram clear for the record.

15 So number 3 represents or what is the full name of that agency or entity?

16 A. That is the Operative Planning Administration.

17 Q. And what is the full name of number 5?

18 A. Operative Planning Department. Operative Planning Department is

19 the full name. Could I please hear the English interpretation, because I

20 see that we need to make a distinction between "administration" and

21 "department."

22 So "administration" is the administration, and "department" is the

23 "odeljenje" or "department." Administration is the "uprava" or

24 "administration." As part, within the department, we had the Operations

25 or Operative Centre.

Page 4111

1 Q. And who was in charge of the Operative Centre?

2 A. I need a translation, please. Am I to follow proceedings in

3 English or in Bosnian? Can I have the text?

4 Heading the Operations Centre was Brigadier-General [as

5 interpreted] Tabakovic.

6 Q. Were you his --

7 A. Not "Brigadier-General" but "Brigadier."

8 Q. Okay. Just because so we don't cause more confusion, I'd like to

9 use some abbreviations for the rest of the questions. So we will use the

10 word "department" to represent the department of which you are the chief,

11 and then the "Operative Centre." We will refer to those two names. Where,

12 physically, were these entities located?

13 A. Physically, they were located in the Operative Planning

14 Administration.

15 Q. In what municipality or town, sir?

16 A. In that time frame, they were in Kakanj Municipality, in a town

17 called Kakanj.

18 Q. Now, I presume, were you in an office building in Kakanj?

19 A. Well, I wouldn't exactly call it an office building. It was a

20 building which provided normal conditions for such an administration or

21 department and centre to function normally.

22 Q. And who else had rooms or offices at the department?

23 A. I had my offices in the department, my desk officers also had

24 their offices, and the head of the Operative Centre also had his office

25 there.

Page 4112

1 Q. Who else, sir?

2 A. Are you talking about the department or beyond that?

3 Q. Beyond that, at the administration, who had offices in the

4 administration?

5 A. Brigadier Dzambasovic had his offices in the administration.

6 Q. Were all these offices in the same building. The administration

7 offices and the department offices and the Operative Centre offices, were

8 they all in the same building?

9 A. They were all in the same building, apart from the Operative

10 Centre, which was detached.

11 Q. Were there any offices maintained by any of the General Staff in

12 this building?

13 A. The office of General Hadzihasanovic, the cabinet of the Chief of

14 Staff office was there, and there was a smaller room there to which would

15 come General Delic sometimes for longer periods of time.

16 Q. Now, where was General Delic's office in relation to General

17 Hadzihasanovic's office?

18 A. I think it was adjacent to it, to his office or cabinet, large

19 office. General Hadzihasanovic had a cabinet-type office, and this here

20 was a smaller room to which General Delic came only very seldom.

21 Q. And where was your office in relation to the two generals'

22 offices?

23 A. It was in the same corridor, but some two or three doors or

24 offices away from it.

25 Q. Now, in the spring and summer of 1995, did you see General

Page 4113

1 Hadzihasanovic at the building in his office?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Can you tell us how often you saw him there?

4 A. Very often, in fact.

5 Q. And did you see General Delic there during that time frame?

6 A. I did, but only very seldom.

7 Q. Was there a period of time where you saw him more frequently than

8 other times?

9 A. Only during the Sarajevo operation, I saw him more frequently; but

10 until that time, very infrequently.

11 Q. And what time frame was this Sarajevo operation that you just

12 mentioned?

13 A. I cannot recall the exact date, but it was in 1995. Now, whether

14 it was in July or August or September, I cannot say with precision, but it

15 was sometime around that period in 1995.

16 Q. And when you say you saw him "more frequently," can you be more

17 specific as to that term, "more frequently"? What do you mean by that?

18 A. Well, during the Sarajevo operation, we had specific teams at the

19 Operations Centre. General Delic would drop in, come by to see how this

20 was functioning, and that was the time when I saw him more frequently.

21 Q. Now, I'd like you to just explain briefly what the role was for

22 the Department for Operations and Planning during the combat operations in

23 1995.

24 A. Which operations?

25 Q. Well, were there operations in 1995?

Page 4114

1 A. Well, as far as I know, the Sarajevo operation took place, at the

2 end of which was an operation to lift the siege from the city of Sarajevo,

3 and I can talk about that operation if that is what you want me to do.

4 Q. We'll be showing -- I'll be showing you some documents, sir, and

5 we'll be getting into the different operations in more detail. But what

6 I'm asking is: What function did the department play in military

7 operations?

8 A. As I said at the outset, the department monitored the situation

9 along the front line through reports that the department was receiving

10 from its subordinate units, the various corps above all. Based on those

11 reports, the duty officer, who was at the Operations Centre, conducted an

12 analysis, drafted a report, and then dispatched this report to a number of

13 addressees.

14 At the morning briefing, this officer would inform the Chief of

15 Staff, first and foremost, because normally he would chair the briefing

16 whenever he could, or the head of the administration; and based on that,

17 certain tasks would be handed out as to what measures were to be taken.

18 Most of the matters would be dealt with at this briefing. The General

19 Staff would hand out tasks and duties and responsibilities, and said who

20 was to report on what. That was the major part of our tasks, so much for

21 those reports that were being sent to the Operations Centre.

22 Q. And I'm going to ask you to go back to the diagram, if you would.

23 MS. SARTORIO: If we may see the diagram again.

24 Q. Now, could you tell us, when you say -- okay. Did the Department

25 for Operative Planning, you mentioned that it received information. From

Page 4115

1 whom did it receive information?

2 A. The Department for Operative Planning was receiving orders from

3 the head of the administration. The Operations Centre, on the other hand,

4 was receiving reports from subordinate units, the corps. The Operations

5 Centre was receiving those, and the department was receiving orders from

6 the head of the administration, Brigadier Dzambasovic.

7 Q. And could you point out, on the diagram, where the corps are

8 represented here, if they are?

9 A. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th Corps. [Indicates]

10 Q. That's fine for the transcript, but could you just make a circle

11 around those and mark those as number 6, so those are the corps. Just

12 one big circle around all of the boxes.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Now, would the corps report to you or to your department, submit

15 reports to your department; and if so, how frequently?

16 A. They did not submit reports to me, nor was I at a sufficient level

17 of command and control, within the command-and-control system, for them to

18 submit reports to me. It was based on orders, they submitted reports to

19 the Operations Centre in relation to the Kakanj command post.

20 Q. But being the Chief for Operative Planning, were you also over the

21 Operations Centre?

22 A. The Operations Centre was part of the Department for Operative

23 Planning. The head of that department was one of my subordinates.

24 Q. So reports would come in to the Operations Centre from the corps;

25 correct?

Page 4116

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how often would these reports come in?

3 A. There were daily reports, regular reports, and interim reports.

4 Q. And we're going to look at some of those reports in just a few

5 minutes. Now, where would the corps get --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can I just get clarity.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Could I please get clarity.

9 You know, a little earlier, Madam Sartorio, you asked the witness

10 whether the corps submitted reports to him, and he said they did not and

11 that he was not of a sufficient level of command and control, within the

12 command-and-control system, for them to submit reports to him.

13 Now he is saying the corps reported to, in fact, his subordinate.

14 I'm not quite sure I understand what is happening here now.

15 MS. SARTORIO: I'll ask some more questions, Your Honour, and try

16 and get clarification.

17 Q. The corps would submit daily reports. I think you just said that;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And to what entity would these daily reports be submitted?

21 A. They were in relation to the command post in Kakanj.

22 Q. Is that -- is the command post another way of discussing the

23 Operations Centre?

24 A. No, no. The command post is a more general concept. A command

25 post comprises everything that there was in Kakanj at that command post,

Page 4117

1 starting with the Chief of Staff, all the administrations that were there.

2 The command post comprised, included all of that. So if a report was

3 submitted to the command post, the report was to reach whoever was

4 responsible at the command post, in this case the Chief of Staff, General

5 Hadzihasanovic.

6 Now, there is one thing that we must clarify for the benefit of

7 the Chamber. Reports were being received because they were being sent to

8 the Operations Centre. There was a duty officer there who would go

9 through all of these incoming reports, and there were dozens of those,

10 running into 30 or 40 pages each; and then the operations duty officer

11 would draw up a brief report for the Presidency, the commander, and

12 whoever else was there, the Administration for Moral Guidance, the

13 superior command.

14 The reports in their entirety would be forwarded to the post in

15 Kakanj, the person in charge; and, in this case, it was General

16 Hadzihasanovic. But, and I must say this again, this was a lot of paper,

17 and General Hadzihasanovic would not have been able to read all of this,

18 and all the other subordinate officers. So the duty officer would draw up

19 a brief report.

20 At a briefing, he would inform the Staff about the situation along

21 the front lines. General Hadzihasanovic would be there. When he wasn't,

22 Brigadier Dzambasovic would stand in for him; and then this report would

23 be submitted to the Presidency and all the other relevant addressees.

24 Certain --

25 Q. Thank you. Do you have just -- do you want to finish your

Page 4118

1 sentence?

2 A. No, no, it's fine.

3 Q. Why don't we go into the documents. Now, the corps -- would the

4 corps receive information from subunits; and if so, could you please

5 explain briefly how that system operated, if you know?

6 A. Well, I know, or at least I think I know, the first report in the

7 unit would be produced by the company. The company would then forward

8 this - if I may just read the English - would then forward this to the

9 battalion. The battalion would then forward this to the brigade. Whoever

10 was responsible for this in the brigade would process this and send it on

11 to the division corps, and then the corps would dispatch this to us at the

12 Kakanj command centre.

13 It would be received by the Operations Centre, and the duty

14 officer would get all these reports from all the corps in the units. He

15 would analyse these, and based on these, produce a brief report.

16 What's the point of the whole exercise? If you start with the

17 company and go all the way up to the General Staff, that would amount to

18 at least 300 different separate reports, and I was supposed to produce a

19 half page or a page, at the very most, based on these 300 reports for the

20 General Staff. So you have a whole network of reporting, producing this

21 one brief report. It was sent to the Presidency, to the commander, and

22 whoever the other relevant addressees were, the Moral Guidance

23 Administration, the Logistics Centre and so on and so forth.

24 That's how they were informed about the situation that at certain

25 times prevailed along the front line.

Page 4119

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you mentioned a short while ago that there

2 were daily briefings. Could you please explain who attended these

3 briefings and what information was discussed at these briefings? The

4 types of information, I should say.

5 A. As I said, at these briefings, there would normally be the Chief

6 of Staff, General Hadzihasanovic. A duty officer would briefly brief

7 everyone on the situation, based on reports. If he wasn't there, and

8 sometimes he was busy elsewhere, Brigadier Dzambasovic would stand in for

9 him. And then based on this report, all those who were present at the

10 command post in Kakanj, in addition to the administrations that made up

11 the Staff, there would be the sections from the security organ, the

12 intelligence organ, the Moral Guidance Administration, and so on and so

13 forth. Those people were normally present, so that orders could be issued

14 on the spot.

15 For the most part, the Chief of Staff would get most of the work

16 done during this time. He would issue an order, and we would all leave

17 and continue going about our different jobs; or, alternatively, it could

18 have been done by Brigadier Dzambasovic.

19 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness be shown P02232.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, ma'am, what are you going to do

21 with this diagram, number one; and, number two, before you called this

22 diagram, you called "P01839." I don't know what you intend to do with all

23 these documents. This document here, I would like to see the little box

24 beneath box number 5 being given a name and a number.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, sir.

Page 4120

1 Q. Sir, could you mark, on the ELMO with the pen, in the box number 5

2 what that box is?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not in the box in number 5. Under number 5.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Under number 5.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The little box.


7 Q. What is the little box under number 5? Just write it out, please.

8 A. This one, this is the Operations Centre. [Marks]

9 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Well, Your Honour, may the witness be shown

10 the whole document, P01839, because there are several pages to this. This

11 is just one page of the document.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document?

13 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. I mean, at this point, I would tender this

14 separately.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The organogram on the ELMO is admitted into

16 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 597.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 May the witness now be shown P02232.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Be what are you doing with P01839?

22 MS. SARTORIO: I'm not doing -- I'm not admitting it in evidence,

23 Your Honour. Just the chart is all I want to admit at this point.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now you want P02232?

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. The first page is fine.

Page 4121

1 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us what this document is?

2 A. This is a regular log, a combat report; a regular daily combat

3 report.

4 Q. And it's a combat report from whom to whom?

5 A. 328th or 329th - I can't see clearly - Mountain Brigade is

6 submitting this to the 35th Division.

7 Q. Now, in terms of -- where would this information go after it went

8 to the 35th Division?

9 A. This is the 35th Division --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, leading question.

12 First of all, one should ascertain whether it would be sent anywhere at

13 all, and then perhaps ask where to.

14 MS. SARTORIO: I'll rephrase that, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, sir, this says "Regular Daily Combat Report" from the 328th

18 Mountain Brigade to the 35th Division. Now, what would be done with this

19 report, if anything, at the 35th Division?

20 A. I can comment to the following extent: This is a regular daily

21 combat report sent by the 328th Brigade to the 35th Division. Now, what

22 did the Division do with this? I can't say, simply because I don't know

23 what they did with it, if anything. What they wrote, based on this, the

24 document doesn't show that.

25 Q. That's fair, sir. And I understand you can't say exactly what

Page 4122

1 happened, but what were the procedures? Because you're in the Operations

2 Centre and you are tasked with writing reports that go above you, what

3 were the procedures when a report was filed by a brigade to a division,

4 from the division to the corps, from the corps to the Operations Centre?

5 Just walk us through the procedures, please.

6 A. I did just this about ten minutes ago. There would be an initial

7 report, sometimes an oral report, and this was produced by the company.

8 That is the lowest-ranking unit or one of the lower-ranking units. After

9 the company, the report would be received by the battalion. Three or four

10 reports by companies are submitted to the battalion. The duty officer in

11 the battalion reads these reports and sums it up, makes a summary report

12 based on these.

13 But one thing that one needs to keep in mind is that at this level

14 of reporting, we had people who weren't trained properly, stone masons,

15 carpenters, sometimes locksmiths, those kind of people. And after that --

16 Q. Sir --

17 A. May I just finish, please, since you asked the question, after

18 all?

19 Once these reports reach the battalion, the company reports, the

20 duty officer in the battalion would analyse these; and then depending on

21 his level of training and education, he would try to single out what was

22 particularly important. He would do his best. Whatever he produced would

23 then reach the brigade, and the duty officer at the brigade level would

24 look at what the duty officer in the battalion had written. What exactly

25 he wrote would be based on purely subjective assessments which very much

Page 4123

1 depended on his level of general education, military training, civilian

2 education, and so on and so forth.

3 I'm just trying to put you in the picture so that the Chamber

4 might understand. We didn't have properly-trained officers, especially at

5 lower levels; semi-literate sometimes, I could even go as far as to say

6 that.

7 The battalion would then finish their reports, and the three or

8 four battalion reports would eventually reach the brigade. The 328th

9 Brigade specifically produced this report based on 15 reports received by

10 the companies and three or four by the battalions; and whoever the duty

11 officer happened to be, depending on his training, on his level of

12 education, he drafted this report. This was sent to the 35th Division.

13 Now, what did the Division do? As a matter of principle, that's

14 what I'm saying. I don't know about this particular report. But as a

15 matter of principle, according to military doctrine, the method of

16 reporting and the principle of subordination, they would have had to

17 inform the corps, as a matter of principle. But, again, I have to express

18 my reservations about this particular report.

19 This particular report, I have nowhere -- I have no idea where it

20 was sent to; therefore, I can't comment. As a matter of principle, and

21 this is another segment of reporting, this report was to be submitted to

22 the corps, and the corps was to present its own summary, its own brief

23 report, and dispatch it to the Kakanj command post, which is where the

24 Operations Centre was that we have already referred to more than once.

25 After all of these reports were received from the corps-level

Page 4124

1 units, one would draw up a summary report, and this would then be

2 dispatched to all the addressees that I've mentioned and pointed out

3 already.

4 Thank you very much.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.

6 We may put this document away, Your Honours, and I'd like the

7 witness to be shown --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not tendering it in?

9 MS. SARTORIO: Well, we'll ask that it be tendered in evidence,

10 but I know if the Defence is objecting --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. There is

13 absolutely no foundation for this document to be admitted, at least not in

14 relation to this particular witness's evidence.

15 MS. SARTORIO: That's fine, Your Honour. I don't want to press

16 it. There are more important documents. It was for illustrative

17 purposes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then the document is not tendered.


20 P02130, please, may it be shown the witness.

21 Q. Sir, could you tell us what this document is?

22 A. It says that this is an analysis of the strategic attack,

23 Proljece-95. The period covered is between the 6th of May and the 31st of

24 May, 1995. It was produced by the 35th Division Command and dispatched to

25 the 3rd Corps Command.

Page 4125

1 Q. Now, are you familiar with Operation Proljece?

2 A. No, I'm not.

3 Q. Do you recall seeing any reports, being the Chief of the

4 Department for Operative Planning, about this operation?

5 A. This may have been referred to in the 3rd Corps report, the name

6 itself, but my memory of that operation is very scarce. I may have seen a

7 reference to it of some sort in a 3rd Corps report, but I don't remember

8 any particulars.

9 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look about halfway down the body of the

10 document, I where it discusses: "After the preparations and reports."

11 MS. SARTORIO: Bring the English document up.

12 Q. If you could read that one very long sentence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is it in the English, ma'am?

14 MS. SARTORIO: "After the Preparations," it's about the 3rd

15 sentence. Can you see it now, if you can highlight? Right there, yes.

16 Q. If you could read that sentence, sir, I'd like to ask you if you

17 are familiar with any of the specifics of this operation. It may not be

18 by name, but are you familiar with the El Mujahedin participating in an

19 operation in June 1995?

20 A. As I said, I don't remember. This was a long time in some report

21 that the corps submitted to us at the General Staff. I read some

22 reference to Proljece-95, but I know exactly nothing about that operation.

23 This is a report by the 35th Division, submitted to the 3rd Corps;

24 therefore, I'd like to ask you one thing. I know nothing about this. I

25 am not qualified to talk about this document.

Page 4126

1 You have the Division, you have the Corps. I can talk about

2 documents that were submitted to the General Staff, the Operations Centre,

3 which was a place that I had access to. This is about something between

4 the Division and the Corps.

5 Unless I really have to, I would decline any offer to discuss

6 this. I'm simply not familiar with this document, and it didn't have

7 anything to do with me, specifically. I was back at the General Staff, or

8 rather, at the Staff, in the Operations Centre. I wasn't attached to the

9 3rd Corps or the Division in question.

10 Therefore, if we could please refrain from discussing this, unless

11 I really have no choice. If you absolutely want me to say something about

12 it, perhaps I can say something about it in purely technical terms.

13 Q. Well, yes. The point of this document is to show the reporting

14 procedures, that the previous document was reporting from a brigade to a

15 division. Is this document reporting from a division to the Corps?

16 A. The 35th Division Command - that's what it says - submitted this

17 analysis to the 3rd Corps. That's what the document reflects, what I can

18 see.

19 MS. SARTORIO: We'll move on, Your Honour. This document may be

20 put away.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is put away.

22 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness be shown document 2193.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a "P0"" document?

24 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I'm sorry, P02193.

25 Q. Sir, are you able to identify this document?

Page 4127

1 A. Yes. This is a regular daily combat report sent by the 3rd Corps

2 Command to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Army of the

3 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, at the Kakanj command post, and to

4 another two addresses.

5 Q. And could you identify, please, for the record, the date of this

6 document?

7 A. Zenica, the 29th of June, 1995.

8 MS. SARTORIO: May we go to the last page of the document so we

9 can see the name.

10 Q. Sir, do you know whose name that is at the end of the document?

11 A. At the bottom of the page, it is written "Colonel Ekrem

12 Alihodzic."

13 Q. And do you know who he is and what position he held, if any?

14 A. I do not know Ekrem Alihodzic well. I did not know him well, as

15 he was in the 3rd Corps, but I had heard about that person. While he was

16 at that post, I believe that he worked in the Corps Command, in the

17 security organ. I believe so, but I cannot claim it.

18 This is an incomplete document because you cannot see, on the

19 left-hand side, who wrote the document. These initials only indicated the

20 typist, but not the author of the document, so I believe the document to

21 be incomplete.

22 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the section, on the English,

23 it's page 35, and it's discussing the 35th Division.

24 MS. SARTORIO: In The B/C/S, it is page 2 at the top, page 3 in

25 English. That's the B/C/S. Okay.

Page 4128

1 Q. So, in this report, sir, to the Kakanj command post from the 3rd

2 Corps, this is reporting on the activities of the 35th Division?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if you look down further toward the end of the section, it

5 starts out: "In the 35 Ground Forces Division." Do you see that section?

6 Can you tell us what that section is about, sir?

7 A. The 35th Division was undertaking defensive operations in its zone

8 of responsibility. It was defending itself against -- from the aggressor.

9 The focus of the engagement of our forces is on defence -- the defence of

10 the city of Maglaj. So all the defences were concentrated on the city of

11 Maglaj, and also the engineering works. The reconnaissance of the forward

12 end was also one of the focuses of activities of the aggressor's forces, I

13 guess.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm asking specifically about that one section

15 about the El Mujahedin, and I want you to -- at least in the English

16 version, I want you to explain to us what that is a reference to. What is

17 the El Mujahedin doing?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It says "El Mudjahedin Detachment."

19 MS. SARTORIO: "Detachment." Yes, sorry. Thank you, Your Honour,

20 for correcting that.

21 A. Could I just have the context, please? Let me just get the

22 context. I'm reading from the top.

23 For the continuation of operations and within the Operation

24 Proljece-95, one combatant was lightly wounded -- severely wounded and

25 three lightly. Preparation of combatants for the forthcoming combat

Page 4129

1 activities, together with the El Mudjahedin Detachment. This says that

2 the 35th Division will train and prepare combatants for the upcoming

3 combat operations, together with the El Mujahid department.

4 This means that, as a military specialist, this is how I would

5 analyse it: There is the Division on the one side and on the other the

6 detachment. There are two components. The 35th Division will train and

7 prepare combatants together with this other component, which is the El

8 Mudjahedin Detachment.

9 This is the way I would analyse it, Your Honours; namely, that

10 there would be preparation and training of fighters in this way.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

12 Your Honour, we would ask this document be admitted into evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 598.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Now, sir, in addition to daily reports, did the

18 Operations Centre receive other types of reports?

19 A. The Operations Centre did not. The Operations Centre only

20 received regular combat reports and daily reports. All other reports

21 would be dispatched along another line to the Chief of Staff.

22 Q. And where was the -- was the Chief of Staff physically located in

23 Kakanj?

24 A. The Chief of Staff was in the building which I referred to

25 earlier. He was in a building that had been adapted to

Page 4130

1 control-and-command purposes. If you have the diagram, I can show you on

2 it where the Chief of Staff was.

3 Actually, the Operations Centre was elsewhere, across the street

4 from that building, perhaps some 100 metres away from it; that is to say,

5 the Communications Centre was some 100 metres away from the Chief of

6 Staff, and it was to the Communications Centre that all other acts and

7 documents came which would later be dispatched towards the Chief of Staff.

8 These were other documents, you know. There was a series of

9 different documents, and the daily combat reports and interim reports came

10 through the Operations Centre. All the other documents went to the Chief

11 of Staff, who would then initial them and assign the different tasks to

12 their different -- to different people to carry them out.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which town, sir, was the office of the Chief of

14 Staff?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Kakanj.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, from your previous answer, you said there were a series of

18 different documents. The daily combat reports and the interim reports

19 came through the Operations Centre. So that went back to my original

20 question about whether there were any other reports, and you're just

21 telling me now you said "interim."

22 Were there any type of monthly reports that would come to the

23 Operations Centre?

24 A. There were monthly reports, but I should like to emphasise again,

25 because I want to be very clear, daily combat reports and special or

Page 4131

1 interim combat reports arrived at the Operations Centre. An entire

2 series, a multitude of other documents, which concerned the issues of

3 logistics, morals, different branches, communications, different branches,

4 artillery, armour, armoured units, ABH units, visits, requests for the

5 Chief of Staff to receive the president of the municipality, and a

6 multitude of other reports and documents went from the Communications

7 Centre to the Chief of Staff directly, who at the time was General

8 Hadzihasanovic.

9 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

10 May the witness now be shown P02196.

11 Q. Sir, can you tell us what this document is?

12 A. This is a plan, a coordination of the General Staff of the

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina Army for the month of July 1995.

14 Q. And does it say "Kakanj, July 1995"?

15 A. It says for the month of July 1995.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Can we move down the page, please, and the B/C/S.

17 Thank you.

18 Q. Does that say "Kakanj," sir?

19 A. Yes, it does, it says so.

20 Q. Was this document received at the Department of Operations and

21 Planning?

22 A. This document was not received in Operations and Planning, but

23 Operations and Planning actively participated in its production. It was

24 an active participant in its making.

25 Q. And do you see, in the upper left-hand corner, who has endorsed

Page 4132

1 this plan?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, the plan is seven pages long, at least in English. Can you

4 tell us, in general, what this plan is?

5 A. This is a coordination plan. So to latch onto the first question,

6 a global order regulated that all subordinated units, meaning the Corps

7 and the administrations, would submit once monthly a report on their

8 activities for the coordination plan, which was drawn up every month.

9 What did this imply? Every subordinated unit and administration

10 was to submit its activities; namely, the activities it planned to

11 undertake during the month that would follow, on the basis of all the

12 reports which came to the Chief of Staff. He would of course assign them

13 to whoever he thought was to carry out the assignment. In this particular

14 case, it was the Operations and Training Department and administration.

15 So a team composed from representatives of all the administrations would

16 draw up a consolidated plan of all activities.

17 For instance, if training in the Training Centre in Zenica was

18 planned for that month, all the corps had to send their officers or men to

19 the Training Centre in Zenica on a particular date; or if there was some

20 other activity, it would be thus coordinated. Joint activities were

21 coordinated under the coordination plan.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

23 Your Honour, we ask that this document be admitted in evidence.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

Page 4133

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 599.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MS. SARTORIO: It looks like our time is up, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Sir, we haven't finished. We will come back tomorrow at quarter

6 to 2:00 in the afternoon -- I beg your pardon, quarter past 2.00 in the

7 afternoon, in this same courtroom tomorrow.

8 Court adjourned to quarter past 2.00 tomorrow in Courtroom II.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of

11 October, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.