Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4227

1 Wednesday, 17 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody, and sorry for that

7 last-minute delay. It was beyond control.

8 Mr. Registrar, can you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.

10 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around

16 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio for the Prosecution,

17 assisted by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

19 For the Defence, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, colleagues from the

22 OTP. Good afternoon all in and around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and

23 Nicholas David Robson on behalf of the Defence of General Delic, assisted

24 by assistant Lejla Gluhic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 4228

1 Good afternoon, Mr. Alija. May I remind you that you are still

2 bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony, to

3 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Okay?

4 Thank you very much.


6 [The witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

8 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic (Continued)

9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Alija.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. I hope that you have rested, that we shall be able to transact our

12 business of your testifying quite quickly. We stopped at some reports of

13 the 3rd Corps, and at this point I should like the witness to take a look

14 at Exhibit 603.

15 You will recall that yesterday the Prosecutor showed you this

16 document also. This is a document of the Command of the 3rd Corps of the

17 8th of July, 1995, sent to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Kakanj command post, to the forward command

19 post of the 3rd Corps and to the Command of the 7th Corps, and it is

20 entitled "Regular Daily Combat Report." Please go to page 2 of the

21 Bosnian version. The English version is on the screen, as it should be;

22 the corresponding part, that is.

23 Please, like you did yesterday, go through this part which

24 describes the status and activities of the Corps forces in the zone of the

25 35th Division, and you will recall that yesterday you saw a reference to

Page 4229

1 the -- to preparations being made for upcoming combat operations, together

2 with the El Mudjahedin Detachment. Please remember this information as

3 well as the date, which is the 8th of July, 1995. Keep it in mind.

4 And for the time being, this document can then be moved away, Your

5 Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. We haven't seen the next page. I don't

7 know what it is. You asked the witness to look at the status of the

8 activities of the 35th Division. We haven't seen that yet, or is it --

9 the heading that I see is: "Current situation and activity of the 3rd

10 Corps." That's the heading I have, not "35th Division."

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Underneath that is "35th Division."

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine, I see that, but that's not the heading she

13 gave.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The title

15 is: "Situation and activities of the forces of the 3rd Corps," and the

16 subtitle is: "The 35th Division," which is showed on the screen.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, madam.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Have you gone through this document? Have you seen this reference

22 to the El Mujahedin?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Your Honours, may the

25 document be taken off the screen at this point.

Page 4230

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am. Yes, the document may

2 be taken off.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If, in connection with this

4 document, document D577 can now be shown to the witness.

5 Q. Witness, do you agree that this document states that it is a

6 document of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

7 Operative Planning Administration, it is a document of the 9th of July,

8 1995? The date which it bears is the 9th of July, 1995, and the title of

9 it says: "Situation in the BH theatre of war on the 8th of July, 1995,

10 report," or "information submitted to the president of the BH Presidency,

11 to the army commander, to the GLOC Command in Visoko, the Moral Guidance

12 Administration, Sarajevo."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And do you agree that this report also draws upon the daily combat

16 reports from the Corps Commands for the 8th of July?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can page 2 of this document be shown

19 to the witness now, please, and that is page 4, Your Honours, in the

20 English version.

21 Q. Witness, until this page appears on the screen, please pay

22 attention, like you did yesterday, to the zone of responsibility of the

23 3rd Corps, that is about midway down the page, and if the English version

24 could also be scrolled down, please. There is a reference to the units of

25 the 3rd Corps. Do you see that, Witness?

Page 4231

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Can you go through that?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. Please follow -- do the same thing as you did before and tell us

5 whether there's a reference to the El Mujahedin in it. This is

6 fortunately the part which is legible, which refers to the activities of

7 units of the 3rd Corps, but if you need assistance, I can give you a hard

8 copy.

9 A. No, that is not necessary. I can see it and I can read it also,

10 and I can read it out aloud, if necessary, but there is no reference to

11 the El Mudjahedin Detachment here at all. What it says is that the

12 preparations for the execution of combat operations are being made, and

13 engineer works as well.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can see the -- can we see the

15 next page in the English version, please. And can we also see the next

16 page in the Bosnian in order to demonstrate that no such reference is made

17 elsewhere in this text.

18 Q. You see that it goes on to speak about the 4th Corps. There is a

19 section which refers to the security situation. Can you see the words "El

20 Mujahedin" anywhere?

21 A. No, I cannot.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, page 7 of

23 the English version, please, in order to show that -- for all of us to see

24 that there is no reference to it on this page.

25 Yes, the next page in English, please. That's it. That's it.

Page 4232

1 And also can the witness be shown the last page of this document,

2 which is page 8 in the English version.

3 Q. Witness, do you agree that there is a handwritten indication here

4 to the effect that the document was sent to the General Staff,

5 cryptographically protected?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,

9 please.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Who is the signatory?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, can you assist us in this connection?

13 A. The signatory is Brigadier Ferid Tabakovic.

14 Q. That is on the next page in the English version. Please explain

15 to us who Mr. Tabakovic is.

16 A. He was the chief of the Operations Centre at the time, in the

17 Operations Department, i.e., in the Administration for Operations.

18 Q. You also mentioned a duty officer who was on duty there to analyse

19 these operations. Was Mr. Tabakovic his superior?

20 A. Yes, he was in charge of the team on duty in that particular

21 instance, but otherwise he was the chief of the Operations Centre. The

22 duty officer would collect all the data and draw up the memorandum with

23 such information and Tabakovic would sign it.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your

25 Honours --

Page 4233

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 617.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document can now be taken away.

7 I should like the witness to take a look at Exhibit number 606.

8 Q. Witness, I should just like to state for the record that this is a

9 document of the Command of the 3rd Corps, dated the 18th of July, 1995,

10 sent to the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

11 Kakanj command post. The title of the document is: "Carrying Out Active

12 Combat Operations." Do you remember the Prosecutor showing you this

13 document, this report yesterday?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. All right. You remember that to the Prosecutor's questions, that

16 you replied to questions by the Prosecution and Their Honours in this

17 connection.

18 Your Honours, we seem to be having a problem with the screen, with

19 the monitor.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We notice that. It will be attended to.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is being attended to. Thank you very much.

23 Thank you very much.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, we can continue. Do you remember that yesterday the

Page 4234

1 Prosecutor showed you item 1, which says that combat readiness for the

2 upcoming task will be determined by the El Mudjahedin Detachment; do you

3 remember that?

4 A. I do.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would not dwell upon

6 this document. This document can be taken away.

7 I would kindly ask the witness to remember the date, the 18th of

8 July. This document can be moved away, and at this moment I would like to

9 show the witness Exhibit number 537.

10 Q. Witness, I believe that you can see the document well on your

11 screen. This is a document issued by the General Staff of the Army of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Administration for Operational Planning. The date

13 is 19 July 1995, and the document's title is: "The situation in the BH

14 theatre of war on 18 July 1995." The information was sent to the

15 president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

16 army commander, the Command of the Main Logistics Centre in Visoko, the

17 Administration for Morale Guidance in Sarajevo. And can you please look

18 at the introductory sentence, and will you tell me whether you agree that

19 a reference is being made to the combat reports from the Corps Command and

20 the monitoring of the situation in the BH theatre of war in the course of

21 18th of July, 1995, and that this document also describes the

22 characteristics of combat activities on that day?

23 And I would kindly ask you to look at page 2 of this document..

24 Can you please show the witness page 2 of this document, both in

25 B/C/S as well as in the English version.

Page 4235

1 Your Honours, Witness, I'm going to ask you to do the same. Pay

2 attention to the activities of the 3rd Corps.

3 Can the English version be lowered down a little, because that

4 part is towards the bottom of the English page.

5 And here, Witness, in the upper half you have a reference to the

6 3rd Corps, first the 1st Corps, the 2nd Corps and finally the 3rd Corps.

7 A. Yes, I can see that.

8 Q. Will you agree with me that this is a very brief piece of

9 information about combat activities that the 3rd Corps was involved in?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And will you agree with me that there's no information that we saw

12 in the document that originated from the 3rd Corps and was sent to the

13 command post in Kakanj?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The El Mudjahedin Detachment is not mentioned here; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we also see the last

19 page of the same document. Actually, can we see page 3 of this document,

20 which is page 4 in the English version, for the benefit of the Trial

21 Chamber.

22 The document was signed by the head of the duty team, Brigadier

23 Tabakovic; is that correct?

24 A. Actually, somebody signed on Brigadier Tabakovic's behalf, but his

25 name is here. I suppose that a duty operations officer signed on his

Page 4236

1 behalf.

2 Q. Thank you very much. And again we have an indication of

3 cryptographic protection?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 Your Honours, this document has already been admitted into

7 evidence, and now if we can move this document away, please, and I would

8 like the witness to be briefly shown another document, Exhibit number 496.

9 Q. I'm going to put just one brief question to you. Given the fact

10 that you drafted this document, you were its author, can you please

11 confirm that this is a document issued by the General Staff of the Army on

12 the 16th of July, 1995, and that this document was addressed to the

13 Commands of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th Corps? Please look at item 3,

14 and I'm going to ask you for your comment. Here, in the last line of

15 bullet point 3, a reference is made to the places -- Your Honours should

16 be shown the following page in the English version. Their Honours should

17 be shown the following page in the English version, please. Thank you

18 very much.

19 I'm talking about the places which are referred to in the last

20 line of bullet point 3 of this document. A reference is made to Cerska,

21 Kamenica, Konjevic Polje and others. Please, Witness, since you are the

22 author of this document, you can confirm, can't you, that Kamenica is a

23 very common name of places in Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is. This refers to the place Kamenica which is near

25 Srebrenica, but there are a dozen other places bearing the same name in

Page 4237

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 Q. In other words, this is Kamenica in Podrinje, which has nothing

3 whatsoever to do with Kamenica in the Vozuca area?

4 A. No, it has nothing to do with it. This is an order that refers to

5 Zepa and Srebrenica, and this Kamenica is near Srebrenica and Zepa and no

6 other Kamenica.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

8 Your Honours, could this document now be moved away?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document may be moved away.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

11 Exhibit number 605.

12 Q. You will remember, Witness, won't you, that yesterday the witness

13 [as interpreted] showed you this document by the 3rd Corps, dated 3rd

14 August 1995. This document is a regular combat report sent to the General

15 Staff of the BiH Army at the Kakanj command post, the former command post

16 of the 3rd Corps, Orahovo, the Command of the 3rd Corps in Postinje and

17 the Commands of the 2nd and 7th Corps as well.

18 Now I would kindly ask you to look at the second page of the same

19 document, which is also true for the English version.

20 Witness, in order to avoid wasting any more time, you can see the

21 title "35th Division"?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you please pay attention to the part that concerns the El

24 Mudjahedin Detachment.

25 A. I can see that.

Page 4238

1 Q. Can you please retain this piece of information, and also can you

2 please retain the date. The date of this document is the 3rd of August.

3 I would like this document to be moved away, and now I would like

4 the witness to be shown document D579. D579, please.

5 For the record, Witness, just to make things clear, can you see

6 that this is a document issued by the General Staff of the Army, Kakanj,

7 dated 4 August 1995, and that this document again speaks about the

8 situation in the theatre of war as on the 3rd of August, 1995; can you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 Q. Can you see that the document was sent to the president of the

12 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the Army commander, the GLOC

13 commander in Visoko, the Administration for Moral guidance in Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes, I can see that.

15 Q. And also can you also see that in the introduction a reference is

16 made to the situation in the theatre of war, based on the Corps Command

17 reports as at the 3rd of August, 1995?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would kindly ask the

20 witness to be shown page 2 of this document, and the same page in the

21 English version. And I am going to ask the witness to look how the

22 activities of the 3rd Corps are described in this document.

23 Q. This is in the second paragraph from the top of the page.

24 A. Yes, I can see that very clearly.

25 Q. And I'm going to ask you to tell us whether there is any

Page 4239

1 information about the El Mudjahedin Detachment or its activities.

2 A. No.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems that in the

4 English version, the title, "The 3rd Corps," has been omitted. I would

5 like to draw your attention to that, or maybe if you scroll down the

6 document a little, maybe we will see it.

7 Q. However, Witness, can you please read -- because of the situation,

8 can you please read what it says about the 3rd Corps in the document?

9 A. Yes, I will gladly do that:

10 "The 3rd Corps --"

11 Q. Please, slowly.

12 A. "In the area of the 303rd Mountain Brigade, at 1600 hours, attack

13 combat activities were launched by our forces in the sector of Jasenovi,

14 Ravne and Kosovnjak. The battle is ongoing. We have not received a

15 report about the combat results. The other units are engaged in decisive

16 defence."

17 And this is what is written about the 3rd Corps.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

19 Your Honours, we will ask for a revision of this translation so as

20 to make the exhibit clear. Now we have it on record as interpreted by the

21 interpreter.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want it admitted, ma'am?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And as you have a revised interpretation of that

25 document, could you please, just for the sake of some of us, give the full

Page 4240

1 meaning of the word "GLOC" which is on the heading on the first page? One

2 of the addressees is "GLOC" something, G-L-O-C.

3 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

4 exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 618.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, please, can you explain to the Trial Chamber the meaning

10 of the abbreviation "GLOC"?

11 A. GLOC: "G" is main, "L" is logistic and "C" is centre. This is

12 the Main Logistical Centre which was located in Visoko.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document may be

15 moved away. At this moment, I should like to show the witness Exhibit

16 number 370.

17 Q. Witness, unfortunately this document has been photocopied. I hope

18 you see that. It says: "The General Staff of the BiH Army," that the

19 document was drafted in Kakanj on the 29th of March, 1995. The title

20 is: "The organisation of life and work at the command post of the Main

21 Staff of the BH Army," and this is also an order to all administrations

22 and departments and to the chief of the Operations Centre.

23 Would you please look at the first page of the document and

24 particularly to pay attention to the redeployment area, and to confirm for

25 the Trial Chamber, since you worked there, whether it is correct that the

Page 4241

1 following features and facilities were used in Kakanj as the facilities

2 for the redeployment the Staff of the Supreme Command at the command post

3 in Kakanj. First the Sretno Motel?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. A part of the Kakanj Distribution Centre?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Part of the buildings and premises of the company for the overhaul

8 of vehicles and its parking lot?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Part of the petrol building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The stadium building?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The DP cement factory in Kakanj?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the Zening DT, Zenica?

17 A. I don't know what was used in Zenica. I never paid a visit to

18 that particular building. I don't know what was there. I believe that

19 the Administration for Education and Training was there, and that there

20 was also the Command of the Air Force. I suppose that these two were in

21 that facility, but I'm not sure.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the English version doesn't mention Zenica,

24 it says "The Zening DT expansion unknown in Kakanj." But I can see in

25 B/C/S that I see "DT Zening Zenica." Obviously, that needs correction.

Page 4242

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We shall

2 ask for a correction of this.

3 Q. Please now just take a look at this part which concerns control

4 and command, item 2, where it is stated:

5 "When the commander is absent from the KM, the chief of Staff

6 shall exercise command and control, and at a time when both of them are

7 absent, command and control shall be assumed by the high-ranking officer

8 or the one holding the highest position or an officer assigned by a

9 special order of the commander or the chief of Staff."

10 A. Yes, that is what it says here.

11 Q. Yes, I can see that it is written here. What I want to ask you is

12 the following: Is it true that this is the way it actually functioned in

13 practice in 1995, during the period when you were working there?

14 A. Yes, that was exactly the way it functioned.

15 Q. Please now take a look at page 4 of this document.

16 That, Your Honours, is also page 4 in the English version.

17 And, Witness, I should like to ask you this: First of all, do you

18 recognise the signature?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Obviously, this was signed by Commander Rasim Delic. Do you agree

21 that this document, which was produced in Kakanj, bears no indication

22 whatsoever to the effect that the document is being sent anywhere under

23 cryptographic protection?

24 A. Yes, I agree.

25 Q. That is because at that particular time, General Delic was sitting

Page 4243

1 there and he signed the document there; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Very well. Let me just check whether I understood you properly,

4 Mr. Alija.

5 When General Delic is sitting and working in Kakanj, no one else

6 signs documents on his behalf, but he does with his own hand when he's in

7 Kakanj; am I right?

8 A. Yes, you're quite right.

9 Q. If he is not in Kakanj, then someone will sign on his behalf, sign

10 documents on his behalf, as regulated by this document; that is to say, it

11 will be signed by General Hadzihasanovic or a person standing in for him,

12 according to this document?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the first page, please.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I was just about to go

16 back to the first page myself, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I understand what you just asked the witness,

18 that when General Delic is in Kakanj, he signs documents himself. Now,

19 even though that may be the case, do the people who are the addressees not

20 sign the document to confirm that they have received them, even if they

21 are there in Kakanj? I would expect, given the practice so far, that they

22 would actually at least sign to say, "Yes, we have received this

23 document," even if it came by hand from the next-door office. Wouldn't

24 that be the practice, sir?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not the practice, because

Page 4244

1 the addressees of the document are quite clearly shown here, the

2 administrations, the heads of departments.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, all documents, the addressees are clearly

4 shown, but usually they sign at the bottom that they have received the

5 document. If what is ordered here has not been carried out, how does

6 General Delic maintain discipline by saying -- to say that, "Look, I wrote

7 this order, you received it. Here's proof that you received it. You

8 didn't carry it out. Now I'm going to discipline you"; how would he do

9 that if it is not signed by the addressee?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After signature, this order would go

11 to the Protocol Department, and the protocol Department, i.e., office,

12 would then pass it on to all the indicated addressees. In the Protocol

13 office, if we were to check against this date, we probably could find a

14 reference to the order having gone to these respective administrations, so

15 it would be known that it had gone to them, and someone there who received

16 the document probably, in the administration concerned, signed such

17 receipt.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where does the person sign the receipt if the

19 receipt is not on the document, and if the General has to take

20 disciplinary measures, must he now go to the Protocol Department to find

21 out whether, indeed, the addressee did receive the document?

22 I find this a little anomalous. To me, it would appear that even

23 where it is not sent by cryptographic protection or it is not sent by post

24 or courier, at least the recipient must indicate that he has received the

25 document, even if he's in the same office. That's my view. But you say

Page 4245

1 this was not done?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can ascertain that by consulting

3 the protocol book against this particular date.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Just a bit more -- just another clarification in connection with

7 this document.

8 Do you agree with me that this document is addressed to

9 administrations and departments which are in Kakanj and not in Sarajevo or

10 anywhere else?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And to the chief of the Operations Centre, who was also sitting in

13 Kakanj; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Your Honours, if you

16 have no questions in regard of this document, can I have it taken away?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can take it away, but your last question still

18 doesn't answer my question. I'm accepting that these people sit in

19 Kakanj, but I'm just saying it's surprising that they don't indicate

20 acknowledgment of receipt, like it's done on all other documents. And I

21 accept that they are in Kakanj, they're not in Sarajevo.

22 The document may be removed.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, once again, please, in situations when a document was

25 submitted to the same place within -- in other words, within the Staff of

Page 4246

1 the Supreme Command, to bodies within the Command, it is true that by

2 consulting the protocol, we could see in the protocol book that the

3 addressees, the persons -- recipients actually acknowledge receipt of such

4 a document by their signatures?

5 A. I reiterate, this was the procedure, this was the method of work:

6 Once the commander or the chief of Staff signed a document or an order, it

7 would go to the Protocol, and the protocol people would then distribute it

8 among the administrations, and someone from the administration, whether it

9 was a duty officer or the chief of the administration, would sign having

10 received -- acknowledge receipt of such a document, and I'm quite sure

11 that if we checked in the protocol office register, we would find the

12 respective administrations of person's signature against the date in

13 question in it.

14 Q. One more thing let's explain, Witness. The procedure is not the

15 same with the documents if the person who receives the documents sits as a

16 member of the body that the document is addressed to or if the person is

17 outside the Supreme Command? Did you understand my question, can you

18 answer it?

19 A. Yes, I understood.

20 Q. And in a situation when this person is a recipient outside the

21 body of the Command, then there is no indication of that in the protocol,

22 but it is seen on the document?

23 A. Yes, that is right. There is an indication on the document, the

24 date of dispatch and the initials of whoever dispatched it.

25 Q. If it is sent by courier, then the courier has to have a dispatch

Page 4247

1 log where the courier will indicate having received documents and to whom

2 he has submitted them; am I right?

3 A. Yes, you're right, there is always a trace.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Is there still any quandaries about this, Your Honours? I shall

6 do my best to prove the authenticity of this document, if that is in

7 question.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam, we were long satisfied -- I was long

9 satisfied.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Can the witness now be shown document D580.

12 Q. Do you agree, Witness, that what you see before you is a

13 regulation on the internal structure and competence of the General Staff

14 of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you see that the date on it is the 24th of November, 1994?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a large document, Your

19 Honours, and we have managed -- we have provided an excerpt from this

20 document, and a translation of it. So please go to page 2 of the Bosnian

21 version. I believe it is also page 2 in the English version.

22 Please focus on this part, which says:

23 "The commander of the chief -- of the General Staff of the Army."

24 Working in this staff, the Supreme Command Staff, you certainly

25 had occasion to see this document, did you not?

Page 4248

1 A. Yes, I have seen this document. I saw this document when I was in

2 the 6th Corps.

3 Q. Very well. You knew how the General Staff of the Army

4 functioned. Do you agree that the competences of the Army General Staff

5 were determined by the Law on Defence as well as by other regulations of

6 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Please now focus on this second part of the document, where

9 reference is made to the fact that the commander of the General Staff of

10 the Army, in his absence, shall be represented by the chief of the Staff

11 of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with respect to

12 units, corps and independent units, unless the commander of the General

13 Staff of the Army has regulated this. Otherwise -- and by the deputy

14 commander of the General Staff with respect to the organisational units of

15 the General Staff.

16 My question to you is the following: In the course of 1995,

17 whilst you were working at the General Staff or at the Supreme Command

18 Staff at the Kakanj command post, was this the way the representing, the

19 deputizing for the commander functioned, that is, by the chief of Staff

20 who was at the same time his deputy, General Hadzihasanovic, in other

21 words?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please go to page 3, the next page in the document now.

24 Do you agree that this regulates -- or rather would you first go

25 through it, read it, and then I'll ask you my question.

Page 4249

1 The deputy commanders and the chiefs of the Organisational Staff,

2 with respect to military units and installations, could have been given

3 special authorities by the commander of the General Staff of the Army, who

4 could have transferred to him his competences and responsibilities. Do

5 you agree that this is the way it functioned in practice?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this be tendered

8 into evidence?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 619.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have D581 at this point shown

15 on the screen.

16 Q. Witness, this is a recording of the 200-- a tape-recording of the

17 256th session of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

18 held on the 5th of August, 1994. Naturally, I'm not going to ask you

19 about the substance of this meeting at which you were not present. I just

20 want you to confirm a fact which is of bearing on our discussion up to

21 this point.

22 Please take a look first at this customary reference to the fact

23 that the session is presided over by the President Izetbegovic.

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go to page 3 of the

Page 4250

1 document.

2 Q. What is of bearing for me here is for you to confirm, Witness,

3 that deputies stood in for General Delic also at Presidency sessions, and

4 you were aware of that, were you not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And we see the penultimate name here, "Divjak"?

7 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the witness's

8 answer because of the overlapping.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Madam Vidovic. The interpreters did not

10 hear the witness's answer because of the overlap, the overlap in between

11 the two of you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

13 Q. I should repeat my question, Witness, to you, and it was this: It

14 is true, is it not, that deputies of commanders, deputy commanders, in the

15 absence of commanders, also attended Presidency sessions, such as this one

16 as was the case in this particular instance where we have General Divjak

17 sitting in that position?

18 A. Yes, that is correct. At that time, General Jovan Divjak was the

19 deputy commander.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We ask for a translation of this

21 document, Your Honours, and the minute we get it, I shall also insert it

22 into the file and incorporate it into the document. But at this point, we

23 would kindly ask for this document to be given an exhibit number.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

Page 4251

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 620.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Harhoff suggests it's get to be "MFI." Why,

3 because we don't know the English version?

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Marked for identification MFI --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right, fine, it will be 620 marked for

7 identification.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Pending the provision of the

9 translation, did I get it right? Thank you very much, Your Honours.

10 Thank you very much. Can this document now be taken off the

11 screen, and I should like the witness to be shown the first of a batch

12 of -- of the next batch of documents that we have prepared.

13 Can the witness be shown document D416, please.

14 Your Honours, let me just explain. This batch of documents, D416,

15 consists of a number of documents. I'm going to ask the witness to just

16 take a look at who issued the documents and who signed the documents,

17 because we are not concerned with the substance of the documents. That is

18 not of bearing to our task. And after he has seen all these documents,

19 I'm going to ask him a number of questions.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date is the 5th of September,

21 1955 --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but what is the relevance, madam, if you are

23 not going to see the body of the document? Surely, you are not expecting

24 us, when we write the judgement, to look at the document and see the

25 heading and see the signature, and it's empty, and what is it going to be

Page 4252

1 telling us?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by this batch of

3 documents that you are going to see, I wish to demonstrate something which

4 is extremely relevant to the Defence, which is that in this period General

5 Delic was represented. It is just a fact of General Delic's

6 representation from the 5th to the 16th of September, 1995. This is what

7 I want to show.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I would suggest you ask those questions that

9 establish that before you tender the documents.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will certainly do so, Your

11 Honours.

12 Q. Witness, let us revert to the following: Can you take a look at

13 this document, and do you agree that this is a document of the General

14 Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, issued on the 5th of

15 September, 1995?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We didn't understand each other. I'm suggesting

17 that you ask questions to the witness which establish the point you were

18 saying, and then when you have done so, get the witness, as you tender

19 these documents, to confirm what you have said, rather than take in every

20 document and ask him the same sort of questions with the same document --

21 you know, with each document as it comes. Ask the questions, and then you

22 can tender your documents collectively.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your

24 Honours. I didn't quite get it before. Thank you very much. I didn't

25 understand you properly.

Page 4253

1 Q. Witness, is it true that in his absence, General Rasim Delic, in

2 his absence from the command post, that is, he was represented by General

3 Hadzihasanovic, who was the chief of Staff and, at the same time, his

4 deputy, or by a person designated by the latter?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. In this period, that is to say, in September 1995, you were

7 working at the Kakanj command post, were you not?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. That was the time of the September combat activities at Vozuca, if

10 you recall, if you remember.

11 A. I do not remember exactly. I remember that there were

12 activities. I don't know the exact date.

13 Q. Very well. Do you remember that General Hadzihasanovic

14 represented General Rasim Delic in September 1995?

15 A. I remember that.

16 Q. Please take a look at these documents to see who issued them, who

17 is the issuer of the document, and who is the signatory, whether it is

18 stated, in other words, for the commander, on behalf of the commander, and

19 who is the signatory. Here we have a document of the 5th of September,

20 1995, issued by the General Staff of the Army, the Army Staff. Do you

21 agree that it states: "Representing the commander" on the date in

22 question, of course, Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic, and then it

23 is signed? Can you tell us who it is signed by?

24 A. [No interpretation].

25 Q. Please slow down so that we can have the interpretation.

Page 4254

1 A. I believe that I am speaking quite slowly. Yes, you are quite

2 right. It is said here: "Representing the commander, Brigadier General

3 Enver Hadzihasanovic," and signing for him was Brigadier Asim Dzambasovic,

4 who at the time was the chief of the Operations Planning Administration.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we take a look at

6 the next page. I will be tendering, Your Honours, all this as one

7 exhibit.

8 Here we have the -- it is a document of the General Staff of Army

9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina at Kakanj, from the 9th of September, 1995.

10 Q. Do you agree that on this day, it was also Brigadier General Enver

11 Hadzihasanovic who was representing the commander?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And will you tell us who signed the document?

14 A. It is also Brigadier Asim Dzambasovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Could we now go to the next page.

17 Q. This is also a document of the General Staff of the Army, the Army

18 Staff at Kakanj, dated the 10th of September, 1995, and I shall ask you

19 the very same question. Is it true that on this day also, which is to say

20 on the 10th of September, 1995, the commander was represented by Brigadier

21 General Enver Hadzihasanovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And signed by --

24 A. Also signed by Brigadier Enver -- Asim Dzambasovic. Sorry.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Can we take a

Page 4255

1 look at the next page.

2 We're waiting for the English version of the document dated 11

3 September. This is okay.

4 Q. Will you agree with me that on this day, the General Staff of the

5 Army, the Staff of the Army in Kakanj, the date is 11 September? And I

6 would like us to see the next page of the document. Just the signature

7 block, please. In the English version as well. Next page in the English

8 version, please.

9 Will you agree with me that on this day, the 11th of September,

10 1995, the Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic was standing in for the

11 commander; is that correct? Do you agree that this is his signature?

12 A. Yes, and, yes, this is the general's signature, General

13 Hadzihasanovic's signature.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the following

15 page of this document, please.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I don't want to interfere with you.

17 My suggestion was intended to cut down on the time you're taking on

18 tendering these documents. I realise you've already gone beyond the time

19 taken by the Prosecution by far, and I don't know how much more you still

20 have to cross-examine this witness.

21 You know, I'd hoped that when you'd established why you wanted to

22 tender them, you'd just say -- at least get him to look at them quickly

23 and then tender them, rather than ask him the same questions with respect

24 to each document as it comes through, because you have laid the foundation

25 for it.

Page 4256

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: And may I also intervene with a question.

2 Is the purpose of this exercise to show that General Delic was

3 absent in those days or is it to show that General Hadzihasanovic was

4 replacing him during his absence, or both?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both, and particularly

6 the latter. He was represented by General Hadzihasanovic.

7 Your Honours, I need another five to ten minutes. I'm almost at

8 the very end of my cross-examination.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, I can see that this is the last document in

10 your list. But could I just ask the Prosecution if the fact that General

11 Delic was absent in these days and was represented by General

12 Hadzihasanovic, is that disputed by the Prosecution? Because if it is

13 not, then I don't think we need to spend any more time on it.

14 MS. SARTORIO: The fact that he wasn't physically there is not

15 disputed, Your Honour, but the fact that he was -- that is disputed, we

16 argue that he was still in command and control.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Well, thank you very much.

18 Please continue, Ms. Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the reason, Your

20 Honours. I believe you will appreciate this.

21 I believe that the time has come for our break, and I can assure

22 you that I will need only five more minutes, not more.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine, but I would like you to wrap up this

24 exhibit before we go for the break. Could you please just wrap up this

25 exhibit?

Page 4257

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, yes.

2 Q. Can you just confirm for us, Witness, please, that this is a

3 document issued by the Staff at the command post in Kakanj, the date is 13

4 September 1995, and that it says here: "Standing in for the commander,

5 General Hadzihasanovic"?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have just one more

8 page to show to the witness.

9 Can we please see the very beginning of the document.

10 Q. Will you agree with me, Witness, that this is another document by

11 the General Staff of the Army, the Army Staff in Kakanj, the date is 15

12 September, and will you agree with me that this document is an interim

13 report which had to be sent to the Intelligence Administration, and that

14 it was for the attention of the president of the Republic of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina; can you see that?

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at the

18 signature block on the following page. The following page, please.

19 Q. Will you agree with me that it is indicated here again that the

20 Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic is standing in for the commander?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this moment I would

23 like to bring my cross-examination to an end. I would kindly ask for this

24 set of documents to be given one exhibit number.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The documents are admitted into evidence, and may

Page 4258

1 they please be given a single exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the collection of documents will be

3 Exhibit number 621.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 Yes, Madam Vidovic. Is that the end of your cross-examination?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 We'll take the break and come back at 4.00.

9 Court adjourned.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 May the witness please be shown Exhibit 496 again.

15 Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

16 Q. Sir, I think you've seen this document a few times in the last

17 couple of days, and I would particularly like to draw your attention to

18 the number of the document, which is 1/825-1276. Do you see that number

19 at the top of the document?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I'd just like to draw your attention to what is stated in Item

22 Number 4. And for the Judges, that will be on the next page, please. And

23 in this item, sir, it appears, does it, that General Delic is asking for

24 reports to be sent on a certain date, a certain time, and then also isn't

25 he asking for subsequent reports to be sent on this matter? Sir, are

Page 4259

1 you --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. All right. Just remember this number of the document, sir.

4 And I would ask the document be put away, and I ask that document

5 494 be shown to the witness.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is 494 --

7 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Exhibit number 494, please.

8 Q. And, sir, again at the top of the document do you see the

9 number -- the same number, 1/825 -- oh, no, it's not the same number,

10 excuse me, 1/825/1306. That's the number of this particular order; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, it's correct.

13 MS. SARTORIO: And I'd like to draw the witness's attention to

14 number 3, and for the Judges it will be on -- if you scroll down -- number

15 3.

16 Q. Now, this also -- this document is from General Delic, correct,

17 and in number 3 what is -- he's instructing the corps commanders that they

18 are personally responsible to him to carry out these assignments; is that

19 what it says?

20 A. It says, under item 3:

21 "The corps commanders will be responsible for the execution of

22 these tasks."

23 Could you please scroll down a little, because I can't see the

24 signature, and you specifically asked me who signed the document. And

25 this is on behalf of General Delic, signed by another officer, and I

Page 4260

1 suppose it was General Rasid Zorlak.

2 Q. But it's on behalf of General Delic; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, on behalf of General Delic.

4 Q. Now, if you go back to number 3, I just want to be more precise.

5 In the English version, sir, it says that the General is ordering that the

6 corps commanders be personally responsible to him; in other words, the

7 word "me" is in the English version. Is that word in the Bosnian

8 version, "they are responsible to me," is that what it says?

9 A. Yes, that's the case.

10 Q. And in number 4, what is number 4? Number 4 is instructing that a

11 report be sent to him by 2000 hours on the 18th of July; is that what

12 number 4 says, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. May this document be put away, and I

15 would like the witness to now be shown Exhibit number 606.

16 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me the date of this document is the

17 18th of July of 1995?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if you look in the first sentence of the document, "in

20 accordance with ..." And it lists two orders there. Are the two numbers

21 the same two numbers -- are they the two numbers of the previous two

22 orders that we just looked at?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And then when you look in number 1, and we've talked about

25 this before, when -- it says that:

Page 4261

1 "The El Mujahedin is the primary leader of the upcoming task"; is

2 that what it says in number 1?

3 A. Yes, this is indicated here, amongst other things.

4 Q. So is this the report that General Delic ordered in the previous

5 order that it be sent to him?

6 A. This is a report --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. The

9 Prosecution suggests something that doesn't arise from any of the

10 documents or from anything that the witness has testified to in his

11 testimony.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Testified to in his testimony or testified to

13 during cross-examination?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor is

15 putting a very leading question and suggests to the witness a construction

16 that has nothing whatsoever to do with the document that is on the screen.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you are changing your ground now. I

18 don't understand what -- I don't know what I must do now. Your first

19 objection was because, you're saying, she's taking something that doesn't

20 arise from any of the documents or from anything that the witness has

21 testified to in his testimony, and I asked you, in his testimony or in

22 cross-examination. Now you're coming up with leading questions which is

23 not what was contained in your first thing. I've got to rule on one thing

24 only. I can't rule on two objections at the same time, and I'm going to

25 stick to the first one first. You can raise the second one later if you

Page 4262

1 want to, but -- just a second.

2 I want you to confirm to me that are you saying that what has been

3 raised by the Prosecutor is something that the witness didn't testify to

4 in his testimony or is it something that you didn't ask him about during

5 cross-examination?


7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, what? I've put to you two questions, two

8 alternatives.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this refers to both.

10 The witness has never said anything to that effect either on chief or on

11 cross. The Prosecutor suggested this is the document, and the witness has

12 already spoken about this document, so my answer to your question would

13 be: Neither. The witness has not said anything like that either on chief

14 or on cross.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I'm sorry, you have not responded to

18 my questions. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to overrule you, because I see

19 that this document was referred to in cross-examination this morning, 606,

20 and unless you can make a choice between my questions, I'm sorry, I've got

21 to rule you out of order.

22 I would accept you if you said -- not even accept, but I would put

23 it to the Prosecution to respond if you said it was not raised in

24 cross-examination. But if you are not making a choice between the

25 questions I'm putting to you, then I'm going to rule you out of order.

Page 4263

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to choose, Your Honour.

2 This document was raised on chief, and then in my cross I went back to

3 this document. In other words, this does not arise from my

4 cross-examination. This was part of the examination-in-chief. That is

5 the essence of my objection.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Madam Sartorio?

7 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, both of these documents were put in

8 through this witness on direct, and then these documents were covered on

9 cross, and I think the implications from the cross-examination were

10 putting documents together, and that's what I'm trying to do at this

11 point. I'm trying to draw the witness's attention to redirect on an area

12 that the Defence spent an enormous amount of time on cross-examination.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you.

14 Objection overruled.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, since we've -- yes. Can you answer the last question, sir,

17 which -- can you tell, sir -- I guess I'll -- can you tell, sir, from the

18 face -- from these two documents, given the reference numbers of the

19 orders, whether these two documents are related?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Two documents or three documents? The two orders

21 and the response?

22 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, you're right, the three documents, whether

23 there is a link -- a direct link between these three documents.

24 A. Could you please be more specific? Which two documents, the

25 documents referred to herein or --

Page 4264

1 MS. SARTORIO: If I may go back to 494, and I apologise.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't worry. Let's just say this: Sir, you were

3 shown Exhibit 496 with reference number 1/825-1276, and then you were

4 shown Exhibit 494 with reference number 1/825-1306. Can you see those

5 reference numbers in this document?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see 1/852-25 and 1/825-1036.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1306. It's 1276 and 1306. Can you see that, sir?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You remember seeing those two documents a couple of

10 minutes ago?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question to you now by the Prosecution is: Is

13 there any relationship between those two documents and this document that

14 is on the screen now?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should have to look at these two

16 documents again, by your leave.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead, madam.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 May the witness be shown 494 again, please.

20 Q. Now, sir, do you see the number 1/825-1306 at the top of this

21 document?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And what kind of number is this? Is this a reference number for

24 the order?

25 A. Yes. This is the number under which this order was registered.

Page 4265

1 Q. Now, go down to number 4, please. And for the Judges, it's on the

2 second page. This is important.

3 Does number 4 request that a report be submitted by the 18th of

4 July, by 2000 hours; is that what that says?

5 A. It is.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

7 May the witness now be shown 606 again.

8 Q. Now, sir, do you see the number at the top -- oh, no, excuse me,

9 strike that.

10 What time was this document dated -- what time was it stamped or

11 sent? What is that time at the top left-hand corner?

12 A. It states here: "2359".

13 Q. Well, what is the number that is down below underneath the day;

14 what does that represent?

15 A. "2000 hours." That means that that was the time at which the

16 document -- the report was being written.

17 Q. Okay. And the date of the document is the 18th of July, 1995?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. And in the first sentence of that document, do you see the

20 reference number 1/825-1306, which is the document that you just looked at

21 a few minutes ago; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your experience, in your position as the chief of the

24 Operations Centre at the Kakanj command post, at the Administration for

25 Operative and Planning, can you tell us whether this document is a direct

Page 4266

1 response to that order?

2 A. I must correct you. I was not the chief of the Administration for

3 Operations and Planning, but I was the chief of the department comprised

4 within the Administration for Operative Planning.

5 Q. Thank you for that correction, sir. Now can you answer the

6 question, whether this document represents a direct response to that

7 order?

8 A. This is a report which is connected to the two previously-shown

9 orders.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. This document may be put away.

11 Now I'd like to show the witness a document which is PT6079. It's

12 a -- actually, it's a videotaped interview of General Delic, and we have a

13 section of that videotape we'd like to show to this witness and ask a

14 question.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection.

16 We have not received any indication that anything of the kind

17 would be used, and we have not prepared our defence in relation to this.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

20 Your Honour, this exhibit is on the Prosecution 65 ter exhibit

21 list, and it was played in the opening of this case, and therefore the

22 Defence is on plenty of notice that this document is going to be used,

23 they've had plenty of time to review it, and this document is relevant,

24 directly relevant to what was raised for the first time on direct

25 examination which is the -- cross-examination, excuse me, which goes to

Page 4267

1 General Delic being out of the country and who is in charge and who is in

2 command. It goes directly to that issue, and it was raised in

3 cross-examination and the Defence has notice that this document is going

4 to be put in evidence. And it's very relevant and very important,

5 especially in response to the cross-examination.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm aware of you. I just want to get clarification

7 on a point.

8 Is it not one of the agreed facts that General Delic was out of

9 the country at some stage?

10 MS. SARTORIO: I believe it is, Your Honour, and --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it is, why do you say it has been raised for the

12 first time in cross-examination? Surely it's an issue that the parties

13 were aware of.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Right. It's not just him being physically out of

15 the country, it's the representation -- the cross-examination implied that

16 he was represented by another commander, by Commander Hadzihasanovic, and

17 this videotape interview goes directly to that issue. It's not him being

18 out of the country, it's who was in command of the army and the fact that

19 they have put forth, on cross-examination, that he was represented by

20 another commander. And it goes right to that issue.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand you.

22 Are you saying in the agreed facts, the facts that were agreed to

23 is the absence, not his lack of control?

24 MS. SARTORIO: That's correct, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, before I rule, you had something to

Page 4268

1 say?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was just about to

3 say that the colleague from the Prosecution said today that they agreed to

4 the fact -- accept the fact that the general was out of the country.

5 Also, in the pre-trial brief, and I cannot remember the exact paragraph at

6 this point, this is also an accepted fact. This is just what I wanted to

7 add.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you just listen to the

9 clarification that I got from the Prosecution.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I was

11 not really following because I was looking for this part of the

12 statement. I do apologise.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 Then the objection is overruled.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honours. It may take a minute to

16 load.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "One must know that those operations

19 had been planned for a long time, that I personally watched over every of

20 those maps. They began on the 9th of September. That is the day after I

21 had left for Malaysia. But they continued to be performed under my

22 immediate supervision because the system of command and control functions,

23 although one is not physically present at the site, because I was in

24 continuous contact and secured that all that kept functioning.

25 The presenter: On the other side you really achieved significant

Page 4269

1 success.

2 Delic: It has to be said -- "


4 Q. Sir, you've seen that statement by General Delic, and I would like

5 to know if you have any comment on what he has to say about being in

6 continuous command while he was away.

7 A. I don't have any particular comment, because at the time I was in

8 Kakanj, at the command post, at which time we answered to General

9 Hadzihasanovic. Whether and to what extent General Hadzihasanovic

10 reported to and informed Mr. -- to General Delic, I don't know, because we

11 received reports at the Operations Centre. General Hadzihasanovic was

12 informed of them, of course, and whether he talked about them with General

13 Delic, that is something that I cannot say. I can only speak about what

14 happened at the Kakanj command post, where General Hadzihasanovic was the

15 deputy commander and our superior.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

17 May this video be admitted in evidence, Your Honour?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.

19 This is not a sufficiently-established base for accepting this

20 video as evidence.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I don't know what that exactly

22 means, "sufficiently established base."

23 Q. Sir, is this General Delic on this videotape that you just

24 watched? Is that him speaking?

25 A. That was General Delic. But as I said, I'm not going into the

Page 4270

1 substance of the talk. That talk can be interpreted in a myriad of ways.

2 I only describe what was happening in Kakanj.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Witness, just listen to the question. The

4 question was: "Is that General Delic," when you said, "Yes," that was the

5 full answer required.

6 Carry on, ma'am.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I don't think the basis for admitting

8 this videotape is for the purpose that the Prosecution has offered, and

9 the Court may give it whatever weight it wants to give it, and there may

10 be other witnesses who will come in and talk about this tape. But I'm not

11 sure of the objection, that there's no sufficiently-established base.

12 This is clearly General Delic, and --

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled. The document is

15 admitted into evidence, and may it be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 622.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. SARTORIO: We have no further questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 Any -- Judge?

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: No questions. [Interpretation] I have no other

22 questions.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Alija, I have just one question for you

Page 4271

1 relating to an issue that has been brought up during this trial a number

2 of times and an issue which I thought you might be able to shed some light

3 over, in your capacity as head of the Operative Planning in 1995.

4 The issue is that we have heard that the El Mujahid Detachment was

5 resubordinated from the 3rd Corps to the 35th Division a few times, I

6 think, in 1995, and my question to you is: Was that something that you

7 knew about, and if so, were you involved in the decision to have this unit

8 resubordinated from the 3rd Corps down to the 35th Division in the 3rd

9 Corps?

10 A. I was not involved. It was not within my competence. During the

11 war, I had only heard of the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and I never saw any

12 one of them during the war, only after the war, when this topic became

13 more widely discussed, did I hear more about this detachment. And, Your

14 Honours, I practically know nothing about them.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: And you don't know anything about the decision to

16 resubordinate this unit within the 3rd Corps?

17 A. No, no, I don't know anything about that.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising?

20 MS. SARTORIO: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising, Madam Vidovic?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have just one

23 question. But in view of the fact that we had not been informed that this

24 video would be on the list, I ask for your permission to let me just ask

25 one question in connection with the video which was used by the

Page 4272

1 Prosecution.

2 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

3 Q. Mr. Alija, you just saw a video clip in which, of course, you

4 recognise General Delic. Do you remember that he said, "Control and

5 command are functioning also when I'm not in the state"; do you remember

6 him saying that?

7 A. Yes, I do remember that, and I commented on it, too.

8 Q. It is a fact, is it not, that he had designated a person to stand

9 in for him?

10 A. Yes, he did, and we saw that in a series of documents here.

11 Q. The fact that someone should designate someone to stand in for him

12 means that the former person took care that control and command will

13 function during his absence?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. In view of the fact that you worked in an administration which, in

16 a way, dealt with planning, I should like to ask you the following

17 question: It is correct, is it not, that the maps which are presented to

18 the Supreme Command Staff are the maps of the first subordinated command

19 of the corps and not of the lower units; am I right?

20 A. Yes, you're right.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. Okay, now it's going

22 beyond -- this is well beyond the scope of redirect, and it wasn't covered

23 in cross-examination either.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the video makes

Page 4273

1 reference to control and command and to the fact that the general was

2 pouring over the maps, and I don't see the point of this objection.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The objection is overruled.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. We were interrupted. What I asked you was whether it was correct

6 that the Supreme Command Staff had at its disposal the maps of the first

7 subordinated unit, which was the corps, and approved those maps?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Maps of the lower units would not be submitted at any time to the

10 command -- to the Supreme Command Staff?

11 A. No, they would not. They would submit maps to their superior

12 commands.

13 Q. Thank you. And to latch on to that, in -- just another question

14 in connection with the question asked by His Honour Judge Harhoff. As

15 regards to resubordination, it's correct, is it not, that within the units

16 of the corps, when units are resubordinated, which are directly linked to

17 the corps, a decision as to whom, how, and in which way such unit will be

18 subordinated is taken by the corps commander; am I right?

19 A. Yes, you're right.

20 Q. So the Supreme Command Staff can only decide on units

21 resubordinated to it and not to those resubordinated to the corps; am I

22 right?

23 A. Yes, you are right.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That ends

25 my questioning.

Page 4274

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

2 Sir, this brings us to the end of your testimony. I take this

3 opportunity, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, to thank you for taking the

4 time off to come and testify. You are now excused. You may stand down.

5 And you may travel well back home.

6 I just hope that those people who you thought might be of nuisance

7 by asking you questions about testifying will not ask you those questions.

8 Travel well, sir.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Your Honours, I've previously informed both the Defence and the

14 Trial Chamber's legal officers, the next witness who was scheduled to

15 appear tomorrow and Friday, PW-1, will not be called by the Prosecution.

16 And for the record, when I say "will not be called," we will not be

17 calling that witness tomorrow and Friday, nor will we be calling him at

18 any point in the future. And to the extent that the Trial Chamber

19 requires us to seek leave in order to drop a witness, I would respectfully

20 request that I be permitted to drop that witness from the Prosecution 65

21 ter witness list. That, of course, means that we have no witnesses

22 available for the remainder of this week, unfortunately.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You confirm, Madam Vidovic?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 4275

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That being the case, then you may take the

3 witness off the list. That's it. Thank you very much.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 If I could, I did have one or two other minor housekeeping matters

6 perhaps I could raise at this point in time.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because I'm forgetful, may I raise mine first,

8 before yours.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely. Sorry.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one I that I want to raise is yesterday you had

11 indicated that you had something to raise at the end of this witness's

12 testimony. Is this the point or was it something else? It didn't look

13 like it was this point.

14 MR. MUNDIS: It was related to this point, Your Honours, in that

15 it was a request for additional protective measures for the witness for

16 whom we are not going to call. So yesterday's issue has become moot by

17 today's issue -- by today's developments.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. You saved the Chamber

19 another decision.

20 Okay, you can now go to the other housekeeping issues you wanted

21 to raise.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I have two things with respect to the schedule for

23 next week. The first concerns the pending motion concerning the videolink

24 for DRW-3, the witness that we had filed a motion concerning a videolink

25 for and who was scheduled to testify on Thursday, 25 October. We have

Page 4276

1 been informed by the Registry that for a number of reasons, it is not

2 possible to conduct a videolink on Thursday, 25 October, and we will

3 consequently be attempting to reschedule that videolink testimony. And of

4 course we'll supplement our previous filing with respect to a specific

5 date that we would propose doing that, once we have confirmation from the

6 Registry as to available dates.

7 As a result of that, we will not be calling DRW-3 on Thursday, 25

8 October. We do have, however, another scheduled witness on that day,

9 followed by a witness on Friday, the 26th of October. I believe we'll be

10 able to complete both of those witnesses in that two-day period without

11 any problems. So we certainly will have witnesses available both

12 Thursday, 25 October, and Friday, 26 October, but we will not be calling

13 DRW-3 on Thursday of next week due to technical issues which we've been

14 alerted to by the Registry.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want us to dispense with this item first? I

16 don't know whether Madam Vidovic has anything to say.

17 Yes, Mr. Robson.

18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we don't have much to say, but perhaps

19 if the Prosecution could just please confirm that the two witnesses

20 scheduled for Thursday and Friday are Sabiha Silajdzic Brkic and Goran

21 Krcmar.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could confirm that, please.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely. That was actually the next point I

24 wanted to raise.

25 The witness on Thursday, 25 October, is Goran Krcmar and the

Page 4277

1 witness on the 26th is Dr. Sabiha Silajdzic Brkic.

2 With respect, perhaps Your Honours have noted and the Defence have

3 noted, Mr. Krcmar is listed on the schedule as a 92 ter witness, and to

4 avoid any perhaps -- or to avoid any issues that might arise with respect

5 to that, I would like to, at this point, simply inform the Chamber and the

6 Defence as to the Prosecution's intentions with respect to this 92 ter

7 witness, which is the first of what we expect will be several witnesses

8 that we will use the 92 ter procedure, and so as to perhaps avoid any

9 confusion or problems, when that witness appears and to get some further

10 clarification, if need be, I'd like to explain how the Prosecution intends

11 upon proceeding with respect to the 92 ter witnesses that we will be

12 calling. That way, if there is a problem, we're dealing with it sooner

13 rather than later.

14 Based upon the practice of a number of other Trial Chambers, and

15 in light of the specific language of Rule 92 ter, the Prosecution will

16 proceed or expects to proceed as follows: Obviously, the witness,

17 Mr. Krcmar, will appear in court. The witness will then be asked a number

18 of -- a brief number of foundational questions with respect to the written

19 statement, concerning the situation under which the statement was given,

20 the fact that he's had an opportunity to read the statement, to make any

21 corrections to the statement, questions to the effect that the statement

22 was given voluntarily, honestly, et cetera. We will then tender the

23 statement into evidence on the spot at that point in time after laying

24 that foundation.

25 It's our understanding, based upon the Trial Chamber guidelines,

Page 4278

1 that we would be permitted to ask a few questions, highlighting a few

2 portions of that written statement. And with respect to exhibits, we will

3 then lay the foundation, question the witness about any exhibits that are

4 listed for him or against him on the specific exhibit lists, and then

5 assuming we have laid such a proper foundation, we will then tender those

6 exhibits into evidence.

7 That is basically, in a nutshell, how we understand and intend to

8 proceed with the 92 ter witnesses. As I've indicated, he is the first one

9 scheduled to appear, and I wanted to avoid any problems when he does

10 appear to testify. We are in the process of identifying additional Rule

11 92 ter witnesses in order to expedite the presentation of the Prosecution

12 case, and I will be meeting with my team during the course of the next two

13 days in order to finalise the November schedule, which will include

14 several other proposed 92 ter witnesses as well.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 Any comment, Madam Vidovic, or Mr. Robson? Sorry.

17 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour, if I could respond.

18 From the Defence point of view, we don't believe it's a

19 particularly good way to proceed, to find out on the day that the witness

20 actually attends to give evidence, whether that witness will testify viva

21 voce or pursuant to Rule 92 ter. The Defence needs to know in advance, we

22 submit, so that we can properly prepare properly, whether it's a viva voce

23 style examination-in-chief or whether we effectively have to take over the

24 examination-in-chief and cross-examine during the same session.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't have to take over the

Page 4279

1 examination-in-chief, you just have to cross-examine, that's all. And I

2 would like to be educated on how different preparation for a 92 ter

3 witness is from preparation for a viva voce witness.

4 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, what it boils down to is if the

5 Prosecution calls a witness pursuant to Rule 92 ter, it seems they would

6 lay some foundational questions, the statement would go in, and

7 effectively perhaps with asking permission to ask a few additional

8 questions, it would be straight over to the Defence. Then it's for the

9 Defence to effectively pick out all the salient points contained within

10 the statement. So what it means to the Defence is that it could mean that

11 we have to examine -- cross-examine the witness for a substantially longer

12 period of time.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is there anything wrong with having to do it for a

14 longer period of time?

15 MR. ROBSON: No, there's nothing wrong with that at all, Your

16 Honour, there's no problem there, but we'd like to know in advance, before

17 the witness actually turns up, so we would say it would be preferable for

18 a decision to be taken before.

19 Also, we would ask that the Defence have the opportunity to put

20 forward submissions on the determination by the Trial Chamber as to

21 whether the Prosecution be permitted to call the witness pursuant to Rule

22 92 ter or not. So certainly we would ask for an opportunity to put our

23 point of view forward before you take that decision.

24 As to how that is done, whether in writing or in oral submissions,

25 we're certainly open to that question, but, Your Honour, I would submit

Page 4280

1 that the proper way to deal with this is that the Prosecution make its

2 application well in advance that a witness be called pursuant to Rule 92

3 ter so that the Defence can respond properly and the Trial Chamber can

4 take a decision in advance of the witness actually arriving at court.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to talk or do you want me to talk? I'm

7 ready to talk.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I defer to Your Honour, but I just

9 wanted to ask -- mention something else, if I could have the opportunity.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means. Go ahead.

11 MR. ROBSON: I neglected to mention, and I'm grateful to Madam

12 Vidovic for reminding me, Mr. Mundis, in addressing the Trial Chamber,

13 alluded to practices in other Trial Chambers, and what I failed to mention

14 is that of course in this Trial Chamber we've already had a decision

15 relating to Rule 92 ter witnesses, and on that prior occasion the

16 Prosecution was required or certainly took the steps to file a motion, and

17 the Defence responded in writing also. So I would submit to a certain

18 extent a practice has developed in this Chamber.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, let me say a few things first, before I

20 suggest a course of action.

21 First of all, in terms of Rule 65 ter, a 65 ter list is supposed

22 to indicate which witnesses the Prosecution intends to call as 92 ter

23 witnesses. Now, the crucial question at this stage would be: Is this

24 witness listed as such on your list?

25 MR. ROBSON: I agree with you, Your Honour, and I don't know the

Page 4281

1 answer to that, I must admit.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't know whether he's listed as such?

3 MR. ROBSON: I don't, because the issue has just been raised since

4 we arrived at court today, so I haven't had the opportunity to check that.

5 But you're right.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you are aware that this witness was going to

7 come, and you should be sort of getting your ducks in a row in preparation

8 for cross-examining him, so you should have seen whether he's a 92 ter or

9 not a 92 ter witness.

10 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, certainly preparations are underway,

11 but --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, let's get the question.

13 Is this witness listed as a 92 ter, sir?

14 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, on the 26th of September, 2007, the

15 Prosecution filed a motion seeking to redesignate a number of witnesses,

16 both 92 bis and 92 ter.

17 On the 28th of September, 2007, commencing at page 3222 of the

18 transcript and running through page 3227 or 28 of the transcript, we had a

19 discussion about that motion, and the Prosecution at that time withdrew

20 that motion based upon what was discussed on the 28th of September, 2007.

21 It was my understanding at that point in time that such a motion was not

22 required, that it was up to the Prosecution to make such designations,

23 assuming that the Defence had proper notice.

24 I indicated at that time, and I think this is on page 3227, that

25 the nine witnesses listed in that motion that we filed on the 26th of

Page 4282

1 September, 2007, it was our intention to so redesignate those witnesses,

2 so that the motion which we filed, although we withdrew it in terms of the

3 substance, the witnesses listed, it was our intention to redesignate them

4 either from viva voce to 92 bis or to 92 ter. That's point 1, in terms of

5 notice.

6 Secondly, with respect --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, wait, I must --

8 MR. MUNDIS: On our original 65 ter list, there were no 92 ter

9 witnesses listed.


11 MR. MUNDIS: On the 26th of September, we filed our motion asking

12 the Chamber for its authorisation to redesignate. Following the exchange

13 that we had on the 28th of September, I indicated that we would withdraw

14 that motion based upon my understanding from the Trial Chamber that I was

15 not required to make such a designation. I then went forward and said the

16 nine witnesses listed in our 26 September 2007 filing would be

17 redesignated, as we indicated in that motion.

18 So certainly as of the 26th of September, the Defence has been on

19 notice as to which witnesses we would seek to call under 92 ter.


21 MR. MUNDIS: I will also note that the calender, as previously

22 circulated, clearly indicates Goran Krcmar as a 92 ter witness, at least

23 the most recent version of that calender as circulated.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, my calender doesn't say -- oh, wait a minute.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4283

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: My calender is the 26th September calender, 92 ter.

2 Okay. This whole discussion involves a whole lot of things.

3 Nowhere in the Rules have I come across a provision that anybody -- any

4 party who wants to call a witness, in terms of 92 ter or 92 bis, needs

5 permission from the Court. The 65 ter list, which is decided upon by the

6 party, states there, "This is what I'm going to call 92 ter, this is what

7 I'm going to call 92 bis." Now, fine, I understand you didn't do that,

8 and if you didn't do that, then I think Mr. Robson is right to ask to be

9 given notice, sufficient notice, of intended 92 ter witnesses.

10 I hear that you did say, on the 28th of September -- I may not

11 remember, and I rely on you, and I'm not saying you are wrong. I

12 understand that you may have mentioned then that the nine witnesses that

13 were listed in the withdrawn motion were intended to be 92 ter witnesses.

14 Maybe just for the sake of abundant -- to make it abundantly clear, if you

15 can just make short notice to the Defence and give a whole list of the

16 people you're going to call 92 bis and those you're going to call 92 ter

17 and let them know that. Yes, I think that would resolve the problem.

18 That is the problem they're asking for. They just want advance notice

19 that a particular witness is going to be either 92 bis or 92 ter.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely, and there's no dispute about that, in

21 terms of us trying to provide as much advance notice as possible. And as

22 I indicated, I would expect, by the end of this week, to have a schedule

23 of all the remaining witnesses that we will be calling and a designation

24 as to whether they are viva voce or 92 ter, taking us through the

25 completion of the Prosecution case, so that there's no further confusion

Page 4284

1 at all about this.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Subject of course to any further developments where

4 time catches up with us and we have to redesignate additional witnesses as

5 perhaps 92 ter witnesses. But it's certainly my intention that by close

6 of business on Friday, to have a schedule that will take us through the

7 completion of the Prosecution case with all of that information clearly

8 listed.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Would that resolve your problem, Mr. Robson? Your problem was

11 advance notice?

12 MR. ROBSON: That's correct, yes. It would solve the problem,

13 yeah.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you very much.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: May I add something.

16 Just for the record, I would like to express my view on this,

17 which is that when a witness is called under Rule 92 ter, some limited

18 direct examination may be conducted by the party calling that witness, but

19 I want it to be made clear that such direct examination must be strictly

20 limited to issues that have to do with clarifying a few, perhaps,

21 uncertainties in the statements. It would defy the purpose of Rule 92

22 ter, in my view, if we were to accept a lengthy direct examination of a

23 witness who's being called under Rule 92 ter.

24 That's all I wanted to clarify. Thanks.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I think there's no dispute about that, at least from

Page 4285

1 the Prosecution side, Your Honour. Thank you for the clarification.

2 MR. ROBSON: We concur with that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

4 Anything else?

5 MR. MUNDIS: Nothing further from the Prosecution.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Nothing further.

7 From the Defence, any housekeeping?

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, just perhaps just go back briefly to the

9 point about the notice.

10 As we understand it, once the Prosecution has filed its notice as

11 to which witnesses it is seeking to call under Rule 92 ter and Rule 92

12 bis, the Defence should have the possibility of opposing that suggestion

13 if it feels that such an approach is justified, if it has reasons for

14 opposing the witness being called under one of those rules. So it's just

15 something that we'd like to just state.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly there's a distinction, I believe, under the

18 Rules between 92 bis and 92 ter. Certainly with respect to the 92 bis

19 witnesses, they will be the subject of formal motions, with certified

20 statements attached, et cetera. I don't believe there's any grounds or

21 any basis for an opposing party to challenge the use of the Rule 92 ter

22 when the witness is here and available for cross-examination.

23 I just want to put that on the record right now. Perhaps that

24 issue won't arise, but I simply want to state, in principle, the

25 Prosecution is opposed to the notion that the cross-examining party could

Page 4286

1 challenge the use of Rule 92 ter, because I don't believe there's a basis

2 in law for that.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, maybe let the Trial Chamber not

4 prejudge the issue. It looks like that might be a contested issue to be

5 ruled upon. At this stage, the Trial Chamber will refrain from

6 commenting.

7 Okay. Anything else?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson?

10 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, there's just one matter which springs to

11 mind, and that is the use of witness statements made by another witness

12 when cross-examining or testifying --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't we have a written motion on that?

14 MR. ROBSON: We --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think a decision is coming, I think.

16 MR. ROBSON: So I just put on record that we're still -- I don't

17 think that's duly --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: A decision is coming on that order. Thank you very

19 much. The Chamber has not forgotten.

20 Is that all?

21 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Then the case stands adjourned to Monday, the 22nd of October, at

24 9.00 in the morning in the same courtroom.

25 Court adjourned.

Page 4287

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.08 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

3 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.