Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5106

1 Wednesday, 7 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon everybody.

6 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. Case

8 number IT-04-83-T, The Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Yes, Mr. Mundis, did you want to say something before I carry on.

11 MR. MUNDIS: No.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to take a seat. Thank you very

13 much.

14 Before Mr. Mundis stands up again, the Chamber would like to

15 render an oral decision in one of the motions filed by the Prosecution.

16 The Trial Chamber renders its decision on the Prosecution motion

17 for leave to amend its exhibit list filed on 30th October, 2007. In its

18 motion, the Prosecution requests leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit

19 list by adding the remaining pages of the expert report of

20 Sabiha Silajdzic-Brkic, pages 1 to 8 of the report in B/C/S and the

21 English translation of the corresponding portion have already been

22 admitted into evidence as Exhibit 654.

23 The Prosecution also seeks permission to recall

24 Sabiha Silajdzic-Brkic in less than 30 days from the date of its motion.

25 The Defence, in its response, on the 2nd of November, 2007, does not

Page 5107

1 oppose the motion.

2 The Trial Chamber has considered the arguments advanced by the

3 Prosecution in its motion. Trial Chamber notes that on 29 October 2007 it

4 ordered Sabiha Silajdzic-Brkic to be recalled and that her further

5 appearance is now scheduled for 21 November 2007.

6 The Trial Chamber finds that it is in the interests of justice to

7 allow the addition of the requested material to the Prosecution exhibit

8 list and to allow her being recalled to complete her testimony within 30

9 days from the date of the motion.

10 Pursuant to Rule 54 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. The

11 motion is therefore granted.

12 Thank you very much.

13 Mr. Mundis, you are now allowed to stand up.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Just as a creature of habit, Your Honour, I expected

15 that you would ask for the appearances earlier and that's why I was on my

16 feet. I don't know if that's necessary or not.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because you stood up, you made me skip that part of

18 it by mistake. I'm very sorry.

19 Now even Mr. Robson is standing now.

20 Yes, Mr. Robson.

21 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I don't want to interrupt introductions,

22 but as we were just dealing with a housekeeping matter before my colleague

23 Madam Vidovic mentioned another matter which I'd just like to raise before

24 the Trial Chamber. I could do it now or I could do it after the

25 introductions.

Page 5108

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's do the introductions. I'm sorry to have

2 messed up the procedure this afternoon.

3 Let's have appearances, then, starting with the Prosecution.

4 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

6 Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis

7 and Matthias Neuner for the Prosecution, assisted by our case manager

8 Alma Imamovic-Ivanov.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 And for the Defence.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

12 afternoon to my learned friends from the Office of the Prosecutor. To all

13 those in and around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson

14 for the Defence of General Delic with legal assistant Lejla Gluhic and

15 with us with have our intern Raymond Byrnes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

17 Did you have something to raise Mr. Mundis?

18 Okay, Mr. Robson, you had something to raise.

19 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I just wanted to let

20 the Trial Chamber know that on the 31st of October, the Prosecution filed

21 the Prosecution 4th motion for leave to amend its exhibit list. That was

22 a motion that pertains to a Prosecutor by the name of Muris --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: A Prosecutor by the name of Muris.

24 MR. ROBSON: -- Hadziselimovic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: A Prosecutor.

Page 5109

1 MR. ROBSON: Yes. A Prosecutor from the Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Your Honour, can I indicate that we do not oppose this motion. I

4 can put that in writing -- I can file something in writing tomorrow if

5 necessary but I would certainly like to indicate that we don't oppose

6 that.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think it is necessary to file anything.

8 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson, for that.

10 Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: My colleague, Mr. Neuner will be calling the next

12 witness, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, will you call your witness, please.

14 MR. NEUNER: The next witness is Mr. Dzemal Vuckovic, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Dzemal Vuckovic.

16 Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

17 MR. NEUNER: Perhaps while the witness is being led into the

18 courtroom, I have conferred briefly with the registrar this morning about

19 how to later tender a certain volume of bulletins and special information

20 reports into evidence. The registrar has suggested that we put some kind

21 of table in writing to the registrar so that it facilitates him to sign

22 exhibit numbers, if Your Honours allow us that these documents are to be

23 tendered into evidence. I just wanted to say this up front.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't intend tendering them in a batch as one

25 documents. These are the ones that we were arguing about last week, isn't

Page 5110

1 it.

2 MR. NEUNER: This is correct. They were all split up by the

3 Prosecution team when the exhibit list was produced in the first place.

4 So each bulletin carries a separate PT number for the time being. There

5 is just one bulletin, 1910, if I remember correctly, which has 500 pages.

6 The Prosecution has checked this exhibit number yesterday, and we, for the

7 time being, do not insist that it is being tendered into evidence. So

8 each bulletin or special information report which is talked about today

9 will carry a separate exhibit number, Your Honours. Separate PT number,

10 Your Honours, I misspoke.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 As and when we get to that stage of the trial and if the documents

13 are admitted into evidence, then they will be done in that most convenient

14 way for the registry to deal with them.

15 May the witness make the oath or the declaration, rather.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, good afternoon, sir. You may

21 be seated.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may sit down --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- and make yourself comfortable.

Page 5111

1 Mr. Neuner.

2 Examination by Mr. Neuner:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

4 A. Good afternoon, sir.

5 Q. Your name is Dzemal Vuckovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you're a Bosniak and you were born in the village of Visici in

8 Capljina and you live currently in Sarajevo. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I want to take you to statements. Is it correct that you provided

11 in September 2006, a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of the

12 ICTY?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And in November this year, meaning a couple of days ago, you met

15 me in The Hague where had you an opportunity to read your statement and

16 make any corrections and addition to it. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. NEUNER: Can, please, PT6202 be shown to this witness.

19 Q. After you made these corrections and additions to your old

20 statement, were you signing this statement?

21 A. Yes. I only see it now. I signed this statement, yes.

22 MR. NEUNER: If we could scroll down in the B/C/S just to show the

23 signature, please. Yes.

24 Q. Is that your signature on the lower left-hand side?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 5112

1 Q. And before you signed that statement on the 5th of November, 2007,

2 did you have a chance to look at each document which is mentioned in your

3 statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you carefully reviewed the content of each of these documents.

6 Correct?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. And are you satisfied that the content of this second consolidated

9 statement which you signed in the Bosnian language is adequate?

10 A. Yes, it is adequate.

11 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, according to Rule 92 ter, I would like

12 to tender this consolidated statement dating 5 November 2007 with a PT

13 number 6202 and the ERN number, 06143143 till 06143160 into evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document 6202 is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 706.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


19 Q. Witness, I would like to show you a few documents now.

20 MR. NEUNER: If we could, for a second look at Exhibit 669,

21 please.

22 Q. Do you recognise the document which is in front of you?

23 A. Yes, I do. This is the document of the military security service

24 sent to the Military Security Administration of the General Staff of the

25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 5113

1 Q. Before we look at some formalities, I just want to show you one

2 passage of it. And this is in B/C/S, the second page. And I'm asking to

3 you look at the second-last paragraph of the second page here.

4 And in English it's page 4, and I'm interested in the third

5 paragraph there.

6 We see here it relates to the battle of Bedr Al-Bosne (Liberating

7 Vozuca the 2nd report) --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I just want to read out a portion of it so that we remember

10 all this document later. It says here in the portion I pointed out to

11 you: "We have taken new territories and new strategic points around Mount

12 Paljenik which we took in the first stage of the operation. The Mujahedin

13 gained ground and entered a group of Serbian villages and took 60

14 prisoners after the killing."

15 First of all, could you tell me who is reporting this?

16 A. This report, since it is an original document, was sent to us by

17 the military security department, or, rather, service of the 3rd Corps.

18 Q. And if you look at the author of this portion which I just read,

19 if we could scroll in English a little bit up, please, and if you look

20 here what does it say about the line, "Battle of Bedr Al-Bosne"? Who is

21 reporting this information that I just read to you?

22 A. This is a quoted message from the El Mujahid Detachment to an

23 unknown addressee.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. NEUNER: If we could go back to page 1, please. The upper

Page 5114

1 part of it. I'm interested in the handwriting in the middle, in the upper

2 middle of that document. Could you explain who made the handwritings

3 here.

4 A. Most of the handwritten notes are mine.

5 Q. Can you, with the assistance of the usher who will give you a

6 stylo, encircle those parts of the handwriting which are yours, please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Thank you. And if we could now -- if you could now explain to us

9 what does the letter 03, if I read correctly, in the upper left-hand

10 circle stand for? What did you mean by writing this?

11 A. This is the code-name of my department. That is to say, of the

12 analysis department.

13 Q. And what does the word next to 03 stand for, which you haven't

14 encircled?

15 A. I didn't write that. It says, To be registered. I suppose that

16 the analyst from my department wrote this.

17 Q. Okay. And if we go one circle down to the two words which are

18 stricken out, could you explain what the two words mean, please?

19 A. This was the standard practice. When I received a document, I

20 indicated what needed to be done. Apparently, in this case, I decided

21 that a summary of this document should become part of the bulletin. In

22 brackets it says "agreement." This means that the analyst who will

23 receive this document should come over to me to receive instructions from

24 me. However, evidently this report did not become part of the next

25 bulletin because I crossed it out, presumably after having consulted

Page 5115

1 Colonel Popovic who was the chief of the counter-intelligence department,

2 or perhaps even after consultations with General Jasarevic.

3 Q. Could you explain what the next circle to the left of the stricken

4 out word bulletin means -- what number did you write down here?

5 A. 01.

6 Q. What does 01 stand for?

7 A. This means that the document should be sent to the

8 counter-intelligence department.

9 Q. Who was the head of that department?

10 A. Colonel Popovic.

11 Q. Then next to the 01, there's a slash and a number. Could you

12 explain what the slash and number plus the two words next to it, which you

13 haven't encircled, stand for, please?

14 A. I can only assume, since I wasn't the author of these words. I

15 suppose that Colonel Popovic wanted to have this sent to the 3rd section

16 or perhaps this is a code-name of an operative of an officer. Next to it

17 it says code Vranduk. Since this -- at this time operation Vranduk was

18 ongoing, one can prepare that the document was to be treated in accordance

19 with the tasks arising from operation Vranduk.

20 Q. Thank you. And below there is a circle, it says: "17 point," and

21 then I cannot really read what does that stand for? Could you explain the

22 last two circles maybe.

23 A. 17th of September.

24 Q. Thank you. And below the 17th of September, we see the last

25 circle on the lower right-hand side.

Page 5116

1 A. Those are my initials.

2 Q. Okay. Before I ask that a copy of that document is to be tendered

3 because the witness has made markings on it, could I, for the record, ask

4 that the reference number of that document is being read out or is it not

5 possible now because we have captured the image here as it stands?

6 Maybe I can just tender this copy and then we can move it so we

7 can read the reference.

8 Okay, can I ask to tender this annotated document as an exhibit?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may ask. Go on. The document is admitted

10 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 707.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand. You called this document as

13 Exhibit 669 when you called it to the screen. Now, what you are admitting

14 is not Exhibit 669, it is this document but we don't have a name for it.

15 Okay. We just say as annotated. Thank you very much.

16 MR. NEUNER: Annotated, yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit 707?


19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 MR. NEUNER: If we could move now, since it is an exhibit, the

21 document to see the reference number, please, for a second. It's to the

22 left-hand side of the first document, first page. Okay. Yeah.

23 Just for the record, I would like to read out the reference

24 number. It is 03/ -- one second. 03/1-174223.

25 So I would now like to show you PT2790A. And I ask you to keep

Page 5117

1 the number which is in the transcript in mind.

2 THE REGISTRAR: I'm afraid the document is not released,

3 Mr. Neuner.

4 MR. NEUNER: I'm informed that it is released. We will try to

5 release it again.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is technology failing us again?

7 MR. NEUNER: I'm informed it should work now. I hope.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MR. NEUNER: Maybe we can start, since the cover page which is in

11 Bosnian in front of you is relatively easy to translate and I see the

12 Judges get a copy of the English translation already.

13 Q. Can I ask you, Witness, whether you recognise that document,

14 please?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. What is this?

17 A. This is the main log-book of the administration of military

18 security.

19 Q. Thank you. So if we look at the third page we have just produced

20 an excerpt out of a lengthy book. If we look at the third page, please,

21 I'm interested in the fourth row from the bottom, and in English it's page

22 8 of what, hopefully, Your Honours have in front of you now, the sixth

23 column from the top.

24 First of all, I had read the number of the previous document into

25 the record. And I will repeat it to make it easier for you to find the

Page 5118

1 relevant column. It is 03/1-174-223.

2 If you look - and I'm just helping you here now - at the fourth

3 row from the bottom, do you find that number? And in the English it's the

4 sixth column from the top of page -- of page 8.

5 A. Yes, I found it, if you're asking me.

6 Q. Yes. Could you maybe highlight it so that we are clear which one

7 we're talking about.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Yes.

10 MR. NEUNER: For the record, Mr. Vuckovic has marked a vertical

11 line next to the row where he found the reference number.

12 Q. I have only one question for you: Next to the number which is

13 here on the second-last column, which I have read out to you, it says U/PO

14 Vazal. Could you explain to us what that abbreviation means?

15 A. That note is a pseudonym of the person whom the military security

16 service treated in an operational manner, in a planned manner and pursuant

17 to an approval of General Delic.

18 Q. And who is meant by Vazal?

19 A. I remember that that person was from the command of the El

20 Mujahedin Detachment and I think - I'm not sure - that it went for

21 Abu Mali.

22 Q. If you see now here the entry in the log-book, U/PO Vazal what in

23 the context of the document we have seen a moment ago, what does that

24 mean, what is indicated here what is happening to the document which is

25 incoming to the Security Administration?

Page 5119

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to my

3 learned colleague Mr. Neuner. Can we zoom in, because I can't really see

4 a thing. Can we zoom in on this because I can't follow what is being

5 discussed.

6 MR. NEUNER: Could we zoom in on this -- yes, we do. Maybe it is

7 even possible to zoom in a little bit further. It is sufficient maybe,

8 yeah. Okay. You're just making a bracket, for the record, of the portion

9 I have read out "U/PO Vazal."

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that it has now disappeared.

11 MR. NEUNER: Can we now move the document a little bit because it

12 is no longer visible.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll a little bit? Scroll.

14 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better.


17 Q. Could you explain what does the entry in the last column indicate

18 in relation to the receival of that document, which we have seen a moment

19 ago.

20 A. The officer noted in the log-book, made notation on which dossier

21 contains this document, where he can find it.

22 Q. So do you wish to explain that the document, as it went to the

23 Security Administration went to the file Vazal, yeah?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask the that document please be tendered into

Page 5120

1 evidence.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that let me just get

3 explanations.

4 The same column on which U/PO Vazal is written has some writing at

5 the bottom that looks like "MUD-SDB." I don't know whether I'm reading

6 that correctly. Are you able to tell us what that means?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one refers to another document,

8 that one a bit -- at the bottom, as far as I can see.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then we don't need to know

10 anything about it if it does refer to another document.

11 But then at page 13, line 3, you said, sir, that that note is a

12 pseudonym of the person whom the military security service treated in an

13 operational manner, in a planned manner and purpose in a plan of

14 General Delic. I think there has been a mistype there because I heard you

15 saying that it -- something differently from that.

16 But what I do want to find out from you, first of all, you say,

17 "in a planned manner and purpose" and then what about General Delic? You

18 said it was something like a plan of General Delic, or something like

19 that. And there is no ease on the sentence.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this goes for an

21 operational measure that the military security service undertook during

22 the war and for which we had to have an approval given, that it was a

23 measure that required General Delic's approvals. Such subtle measures

24 such as operational processing, actions had to be approved by

25 General Delic. We did not -- we could not, without his knowledge,

Page 5121

1 undertake such measures and this was regulated by our rules.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did he approve?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as far as I can remember, yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. What was the operational measure to be

5 taken?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Operative treatment of a person

7 entails collection of all evidence and information about the criminal

8 conduct of such person or inappropriate behaviour or conduct of such a

9 person, if they are a member of the army, with the subsequent aim of

10 collecting documentation and preventing that person from continuing

11 activities against the army.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And was this person a member of the army?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person was formally a member of

14 the army but was not part of the system of command and control.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And was that information then collected about this

16 person?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was an analyst.

18 This part of operations and actions were conducted by the

19 counter-intelligence department. I remember data intelligence being

20 collected.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you remember data intelligence being collected

22 on this person, as a result of this entry?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did you see that data?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not, Your Honours.

Page 5122

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Sorry, Mr. Neuner, when I

2 thought I was going ask one question, every answer called for another

3 question.

4 You may proceed.


6 Q. Can -- before -- can you just explain what PO, which is on this

7 document written next to Vazal, what does PO stand for?

8 A. This is a manner of processing. That's previous processing. A

9 person could be processed through previous or preceding processing or

10 operative. Initial processing or previous processing entails that person

11 being monitored to collect intelligence so that that could be moved to a

12 higher degree of processing and that is operative processing.

13 Q. So PO stands for initial processing; correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document please be tendered into

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You had indeed asked a little earlier. The

18 document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit

19 number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 708.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


23 Q. I wish to show you the next document, PT 2726.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let the record show that the document that is being

25 admitted into evidence is the document on which the witness has made

Page 5123

1 markings.

2 MR. NEUNER: Now, please, PT2726 can be shown.

3 Q. First of all, I'm interested in the initials, AM, on the lower

4 left-hand side. Could you explain who AM is.

5 A. AM is the author of this document. It goes for an analyst

6 Adnan Muratovic.

7 Q. Who was the superior to Adnan Muratovic?

8 A. I was his immediate superior.

9 Q. So the document is produced by your department. Correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Who signed the document?

12 A. Head of the department or administration, General Jasarevic signed

13 it.

14 Q. We see the document is from the 22nd of October, 1995, so roughly

15 more than one month than the previous documents were from 16th and 17th of

16 September, and I now wish to look at the second page of that document.

17 We see here a headline, interesting data on activities of some of

18 the heads of the El Mujahedin Detachment. If in English we could also go

19 -- yes, to the second page. And I want to read the first paragraph out

20 to you. It says here:

21 "Military security service of the 3rd Corps has information that

22 the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment command constantly report in

23 writing to their contacts abroad on the situation in the unit and in the

24 battlefield. In one such report, titled, Operation Bosanski Bedr in which

25 the offensive activities of the army units on the Vozuca battlefield were

Page 5124

1 covered, it was stated that the Mujahedin had advanced a lot after killing

2 a large number of Serb soldiers and imprisoning over 60 Chetniks."

3 Could you explain to me what is Mr. Muratovic doing here by

4 compiling this document?


6 MR. NEUNER: Muratovic. The witness has said Adnan Muratovic has

7 drafted the document. He is a subordinate.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This can be divined from the

10 preceding document that we saw originating from the 3rd Corps where Adnan

11 Muratovic most probably, because beside 03 he put down registered. He

12 entered this, because I presume that his task given by me was to monitor

13 everything that concerned the El Mujahid Detachment and to consolidate,

14 compile and present in a consolidated information or brief. So that was,

15 in other words, the purpose.

16 At the time and given that the operation Vranduk or operational

17 action Vranduk was ongoing and given the subtleness of the measures that

18 were being undertaken during that operation, or operational action, there

19 was a team set up of a certain number of operatives who undertook all the

20 measures and performed the actions that were listed in the plan for the

21 operative action Vranduk, which means that at that moment there was no

22 need from me, as head analyst, to include that in the -- into the

23 bulletin, so that we could have some more time to collect further

24 information on the misconduct of the El Mujahid Detachment and then

25 compile a new report with those included.

Page 5125

1 Q. You say there was no need to put this into a bulletin. Can I ask

2 you how many times during the war did you learn that 60 POWs had been

3 captured by an ARBiH unit, or a higher number?

4 A. I cannot recall. But this was not my mission anyway, since the

5 tasks from falling under the Vranduk operative action was ongoing, which

6 included technical surveillance, analytical, operative, and other measures

7 including criminal prosecution, so this fell outside of my remitt or my

8 department's remitt.

9 Q. Did you discuss the issue of the 60 POWs with somebody in your

10 department?

11 A. Apparently, I did consult somebody from the management of the

12 military security service, and this is why I crossed out that notation

13 below 03 and wrote down bulletin. It was obviously said to me that this

14 was not to be included in the bulletin but should be part of the report on

15 the Vranduk operative action.

16 Q. Who told that you it should not be included in the bulletin but,

17 rather, go to Vranduk?

18 A. I cannot, of course, recall now who told me. It could only be

19 General Jasarevic, his assistant Himzo Popovic, Colonel Popovic who was

20 head of the counter-intelligence service.

21 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document please be admitted into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 709.

Page 5126

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


3 Q. I want to take you now to PT2418.

4 First of all, do you recognise that document?

5 A. Yes, I do recognise it. This is the cover page of the document.

6 Q. Can you explain what type of document is this?

7 A. A bulletin is a document containing information for the benefit of

8 readers almost everyday and the readers were the top officials of Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina: First of all, Commander Delic, then President

10 Izetbegovic as commander in chief, and if necessary, the minister of

11 Defence, prime minister, minister of foreign affairs. If it went for

12 issues falling within the remitt, then such information would be forwarded

13 to them as well.

14 Q. Who produced such a bulletin during the war?

15 A. Such documents or bulletins were produced by analysts in the

16 department that I headed, and I verified those, of course.

17 Q. Can you explain what you mean by you verified bulletins.

18 A. That means when a bulletin is prepared, I would go through it,

19 introduce corrections, if necessary, and send it to the head of the

20 department, Mr. Jasarevic, for him to apply his final verification, and

21 when he verifies such a document, he would be -- it would be made --

22 copies would be made and sent to the addressees or it would be amended if

23 there were -- needs to be amended.

24 Q. I'm just informed that I have misspelled the number of the

25 bulletin. It is PT2418, for the record.

Page 5127

1 I want to go on and understand what the number 1 means in the

2 upper right-hand side. This is put in in handwriting. Do you know that?

3 A. Yes, I do know it. This is the original and it was archived,

4 copies would be forwarded to the recipients. They would be numbered 2, 3,

5 4, 5, 6 depending on the audience.

6 Q. Can we look at the stamp below. Why is the document being

7 stamped?

8 A. For credibility.

9 Q. Okay. If we can enlarge the stamp a little bit for Mr. Vuckovic,

10 please.

11 What I'm interested in if you look at it, there's a 1 in the

12 stamp. Could you explain to us what the 1 stands for, please?

13 A. I couldn't really say. I'm not familiar with the administrative

14 matters. Could be that the number noted -- denotes a stamp number 1.

15 There were several stamps; there were smaller ones and larger ones.

16 Q. If we zoom out again, I want you to look on each page - and we are

17 flipping slowly through the B/C/S side only - and I want to ask you for

18 the -- to look for stamps, if you could just go one page by page. Second

19 page, you see a stamp. You could go to the next page, please?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the next page, please.

22 A. There's no stamp on this page.

23 Q. If we could -- and then there's a --

24 A. And there is one on the third page.

25 MR. NEUNER: Is that the last page? Yes.

Page 5128

1 Q. So we have seen the stamps, or on one page it was missing. What

2 does the stamp indicate to you?

3 A. Given that these documents were not signed, stamp was supposed to

4 give credibility to the document being sent to the recipients.

5 Q. Okay. If the recipient had an idea or a suggestion based on the

6 information your department provided, what would the recipient do?

7 A. I'm sorry, I did not understand. Could you repeat your question.

8 Q. My question is: You're providing information through this

9 bulletin to the limited number of recipient, including Mr. Delic,

10 Mr. Izetbegovic, the minister of Defence. If one of these persons would

11 have a follow-up suggestion based on the information you provided, could

12 you explain what that person would normally do?

13 A. That would be a suggestion for General Jasarevic, head of the

14 administration, not for me. If I were to see such suggestions by

15 General Delic, they would be encouraging for me.

16 Q. Okay. What I understand and please confirm that, is that if a

17 receiver would have a suggestion, a follow-up issue, then the receiver

18 would contact Mr. Jasarevic. Correct?

19 A. There was no need for such a thing. Such suggestions were mostly

20 of a morale nature. They would be boosting our morale, they were

21 suggestions that they were supposed to resolve such matters in a military

22 manner. Such suggestions would be of such a nature from Mr. Delic. And I

23 presume that at meetings with General Jasarevic, General Delic would

24 provide concrete, specific suggestions and proposals because, on

25 occasions, General Jasarevic would relay such suggestions to us, of course

Page 5129

1 at briefings and meetings of the security -- military security service

2 administration.

3 Q. My last question to that document is: Your analysis section is

4 providing a lot of information here on these three pages. From what

5 sources would your analysis section -- out of which sources would your

6 analysis section compile this bulletin?

7 A. All the secondary documentation, that's to say, bulletins, special

8 information reports, analyses, assessments and so on and so forth, were

9 made based on the reports from the security organs of different corps, of

10 certain divisions that were encircled, such, as for instance, the 28th

11 Division at Gorazde, and on the basis of operative work of the

12 counter-intelligence department which was a constituent part of the

13 Military Security Administration and which also had the task of gathering

14 intelligence. Sometimes we used information we received from different

15 services, most often the state security service with which we had pretty

16 good cooperation, I would say.

17 MR. NEUNER: I note the time, Your Honours. If I could ask the

18 witness -- no, we still have -- I'm sorry.

19 Q. Can I ask you to look at one portion of that document. In B/C/S

20 it's the last page, the second-last paragraph, and in English it's page 3,

21 the second paragraph.

22 MR. NEUNER: I'm just -- sorry, it's page 3 in B/C/S; I'm not sure

23 that this is page 3. We should, in B/C/S, maybe go one page -- yes.

24 Correct. On the bottom, please, the paragraph on the bottom. Yes.

25 Q. The second-last paragraph if we could just look at this, and in

Page 5130

1 the English it's the second paragraph from the top.

2 Could you, having read the paragraph now, please explain what is

3 the source of that information which your analysis section provides?

4 A. The text says that it's the security organ of the 3rd Corps.

5 Q. So who, in that security organ of the 3rd Corps, would have the

6 authority to send such a report to your analysis section on the Security

7 Administration level?

8 A. This was done by the chief of security of the military security

9 service of the 3rd Corps.

10 Q. Okay. And if you look at the very last words of that paragraph,

11 the information your analysis section is providing here states that the El

12 Mujahid Detachment members claim that the matter of cooperation in

13 investigations will be resolved at a higher instance.

14 What does that mean, a higher instance?

15 A. Since the detachment was not part of the command and control

16 system, or as we refer to it RiK for short, the term at a higher instance

17 may have meant the entities that they were in touch with that were abroad

18 or it may have been someone higher up in the state. It's very difficult

19 to explain that, but it does confirm that they were indeed outside of the

20 command and control system.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have one point which

22 concerns interpretation, page 25, lines 1 and 2, the witness said quite

23 decidedly that it must have been someone from -- from the political level,

24 so I really want the interpretation to reflect exactly what the witness

25 said. He said someone from the political -- from politics.

Page 5131

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.


3 Q. Can you also clarify what you mean by "the state," "higher up in

4 the state." Which state are you referring to?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Are you dealing with Madam Vidovic's

6 problem?

7 MR. NEUNER: Sorry. Then I misunderstood.

8 Q. Do you agree with the interpretation given by my learned colleague

9 that --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you hear what the lawyer said, the lawyer for

11 the Defence said, sir?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, in fact even before

13 Madam Vidovic said that I was aware of that.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can you tell us then clearly what you said

15 in your answer, where they say you're referring to the state. What did

16 you actually say?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I can't repeat literally

18 what I said; I can paraphrase. Therefore, this higher instance in my view

19 and I suppose that it could have been in reference to someone from abroad

20 who had been financing them and to whom they reported on their activities

21 or politics, because this detachment, as far as I know, for the entire

22 duration of the war, was not part of the command and control system. That

23 this is in fact true is indicated by the fact that I had never received a

24 single document concerning the military security service or military

25 security of units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina involving this

Page 5132

1 detachment.

2 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that this bulletin, which is bulletin

3 number 161, dated 19th of August, 1995, be admitted into evidence, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number 710.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


9 Q. Before the break I would like you to look at Exhibit 377, and

10 especially page 64. And please keep in mind the number of this bulletin I

11 just showed to you is 161. Yes.

12 First of all, I'm interested to learn, if you look at the initials

13 on the lower left-hand side, DzV. Who is that?

14 A. These are my initials, Dzemal Vuckovic.

15 Q. And who signed?

16 A. I signed it upon approval from General Jasarevic.

17 Q. We see here you're referring to the bulletin we have just seen,

18 the bulletin number 161, and then you say: "It is necessary to brief

19 Rasim Delic about the contents of the bulletin." And we see that you're

20 sending this to Mr. Sacir Arnautovic in Kakanj. Could you explain what

21 you're doing with this cover letter?

22 A. This cover letter clearly shows that Colonel Sacir Arnautovic was

23 in fact in Kakanj, in that period of time, probably on some assignments,

24 and this was an opportunity for me to send this bulletin 161 through

25 Colonel Arnautovic to General Delic, and this was obviously sent by -- or

Page 5133

1 through the packet communication system. In other words, electronically.

2 Q. I want to, before the break dwell a little bit on bulletins and

3 special information reports. Can you confirm that during the proofing

4 sessions in the last days I have shown you many, many bulletins and

5 special information reports.

6 A. Yes. Yes, I have seen them.

7 Q. And especially on Saturday, but also this morning, did you have

8 several hours to look through each of the bulletins and special

9 information reports I have shown you?

10 A. Well, yes. I mostly skimmed through them and remembered certain

11 facts contained in these documents.

12 Q. And after you could skim through the documents and remember

13 issues, did you thereafter sign this statement which was admitted this

14 early afternoon?

15 A. I didn't sign it today. It was yesterday or the day before

16 yesterday; I don't know.

17 Q. What I want to find out from you is before you signed your

18 statement, have you had an ample opportunity to look through the bulletins

19 and special information reports which are referred to your statement?

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. And can you confirm that this morning you, again, had an

22 opportunity for more than an hour to look through bulletins and special

23 information reports?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. NEUNER: Before the break, I would like to ask the witness to

Page 5134

1 have a look at the binder during the break, to look at the special

2 information reports and my question to you is whether you could, by

3 browsing through this binder confirm that each of these bulletins are

4 authentic.

5 A. I have already signed, confirming that the authenticity of daily

6 bulletins and special information reports.

7 Q. But I'm particularly interested in those bulletins which are in

8 this binder, just we go for half an hour break now, if you could just look

9 through the binder and tell us after the break whether you find that the

10 bulletins and special information reports are indeed authentic.

11 Could do you that for us, please?

12 A. Gladly, yes.

13 MR. NEUNER: My learned colleague has the binder I handed it out

14 to the Defence before entering the courtroom today. If the Defence could

15 please give the witness the binder and if you please look at the documents

16 and we make a break for half an hour now.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a convenient time?

18 Okay. We'll now take a break and come back at 4.00.

19 Court adjourned.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.


24 Q. Witness, you had a chance to go through the binder?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5135

1 Q. Can you confirm that each bulletin or special information in that

2 binder was produced by your analysis department of the Security

3 Administration of the General Staff?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And can you also confirm that each bulletin contained in this

6 binder has a stamp on it, stamps on its pages?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And can you therefore confirm that each bulletin or special

9 information report is authentic?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 MR. NEUNER: Can I with these explanations ask that the bulletins

12 contained in this binder are being tendered into evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The bulletins contained in the binder are admitted

14 into evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. The bulletins numbers 46

16 and all will be Exhibit number 711 through Exhibit 757.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, let -- let's get -- it's clear, this is

18 not Exhibit 377; this is something else. Because you had you pulled out

19 Exhibit 377 earlier which is still, I think, on the ...

20 MR. NEUNER: Correct. This exhibit we are done with. I was

21 referring to the bulletins and special information report in front of the

22 witness right now and the witness could look at it during the break.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I think he did look at them. So we'll say

24 that the binder of bulletins will be Exhibit -- Exhibits --

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 711 through 757.

Page 5136

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. 711 to 757. Thank you very much.

2 MR. NEUNER: Just for the record, there are also some special

3 information reports.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. Thank you very much.

5 MR. NEUNER: I just want to correct the record, I misspoke earlier

6 I said two exhibits 708, I introduced Exhibit 708 with the PT number

7 2790A, but it should have been 2970A. So I repeat that the Exhibit 708

8 should have been introduced with a PT number 2970A.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

10 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Madam Vidovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vuckovic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. My name is Vasvija Vidovic and I will be examining you on behalf

18 of the Defence for General Rasim Delic.

19 The nature of cross-examination is such that most of my questions

20 will be requiring a yes or no answer from you. However, should you feel

21 that your explanation could help clarify some facts, you are invited to

22 give such an explanation.

23 A. I understand.

24 Q. My questions will have to do with your testimony here and with the

25 documents you have just been shown, as well as the documents you have been

Page 5137

1 invited to comment upon today.

2 In your statement, in paragraphs 13, 14, and 15 you describe the

3 remitt of work of the Security Administration of the Supreme Command

4 staff. Do you recall that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You described the departments within the Security Administration

7 of the staff of the Supreme Command, including your own department. Is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You described the reporting chain within the military security

11 service. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you please make a short pause between my question and your

14 answer in order for the transcript to reflect what we are saying and I'm

15 you asking this because we speak the same language.

16 A. Very well.

17 Q. Thank you. You said that the organs of the security service

18 existed in lower level units. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm referring to battalions, brigades, divisions, and corps. And

21 is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As a rule, the organ of the military security service of a lower

24 level command would report to the corresponding organ of an immediately

25 superior command on matters concerning military security. Is that right?

Page 5138

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In paragraph 27 of your statement, you described that the Security

3 Administration of the staff of the Supreme Command received reports from

4 corps departments. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. However, at the same time, you said that these departments were

7 fully within the command -- or under the command of the corps commander?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. In order to elaborate on these matters for the benefit of the

10 Trial Chamber, I should like to ask you the following. It is true, is it

11 not, that in the course of 1992, the rule governing the work of the

12 military security service of the armed forces was enacted, was passed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In its work, the military security service had to adhere to this

15 particular rule at all levels. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That rule governed and defined the remitt of the military security

18 service. Is that so?

19 A. That's so.

20 Q. It regulated its missions and tasks. Is that correct?

21 A. Tasks and competence.

22 Q. Tasks and competence, that's correct? Tasks and competences?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It also regulated the control and command over that service. Is

25 that correct?

Page 5139

1 A. That's correct.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please may Exhibit 585 be shown to

3 the witness, please.

4 Q. In your statement, you mentioned this rule, and you also mentioned

5 it today, asked by the Prosecutor.

6 And this what you see on the screen is that rule of service, rules

7 of operation for the military security service in the armed forces of the

8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that so?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And a member of the military security service you know that this

11 rule was adopted by the Presidency in September 1992. Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. These rules of operations of -- for the military security service

14 in the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was being

15 applied throughout the war. Is that correct?

16 A. By all means, yes.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we show page 6 in

18 the B/C/S version and page 5 in the English version to the witness,

19 please.

20 Q. Please, take a look at paragraph 2, control of the military

21 security service. And please pay attention to items 8 and 9, because I'm

22 going to ask you questions about these.

23 A. I've read it.

24 Q. Item 8 regulates that members of the military security service

25 shall be directly subordinated to the commanding officer of the command,

Page 5140

1 staff, unit or institution in which they serve.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. This is correct and this is what I stated in my written statement.

4 Q. And this is why in paragraph 27 of your statement you say:

5 "Although departments of security service within corps were

6 autonomously -- autonomous in terms of operations, they were under full

7 command of the corps commander," and this is how you explained this rule.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Now let us take a look at the next page of this document. Item 11

11 is important.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, this is the last

13 item in the -- on the page in the English version and in the B/C/S version

14 this is on the next page. Could you scroll down the English version so

15 that item 11 is visible, please. Right. Thank you very much.

16 Q. Now, Witness, please, take a look at item 11.

17 Do you agree that this item states that officers of the military

18 security service in a superior command or staffs, shall, those officers, I

19 mean, shall control members of the military security service of

20 subordinate commands and staffs in technical matters that they shall

21 assist, organise, direct and coordinate their work?

22 A. Yes, this is perfectly clear.

23 Q. This is how it functioned in practice. Is that so?

24 A. Yes, by all means.

25 Q. Now, please, take a look at the last several words in item 11. It

Page 5141

1 says there: "Officers of the military security service in a superior

2 command or staffs, shall control their work. So, in other words, officers

3 of the superior command of military security service control the work of

4 subordinate commands in terms of military security. Am I right in saying

5 that this is how the rule specified?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Well, now --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: On technical matters only. Is it on technical

9 matters only?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are talking about

13 professional matters. Your question was interpreted into as technical.

14 Well, in -- I apologise, but it was interpreted very vaguely into our

15 language, your question, I mean.

16 Q. Witness, did you grasp the gist of His Honour's question and

17 answer?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can repeat -- I can repeat myself. I'm asking is

19 this in technical matters only and the reason I ask so is because

20 paragraph is 11 says: "Officers in the military security service in

21 superior command shall in technical matters control" ...

22 So I want to know whether this is limited to technical matters

23 only. And I'm saying so, Madam Vidovic, because your last question,

24 before I interrupted, you had said -- yeah, said: "So in other words,

25 officers of the superior command of military security service control the

Page 5142

1 work of subordinate commands."

2 So I wanted to say controlled technical work. Okay? Are we

3 agreed that is how the rule goes, say?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witnesses, Please, I'm going to once you once again --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But let me -- I want him to answer my question,

7 Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am very worried by

9 the interpretation. Your question referring to technical matters in

10 Bosnian really when interpreted doesn't mean a thing. And this is why

11 neither the witness nor I can understand it and we have real problems with

12 the translation and interpretation. In original it says professional

13 matters or professional issues. And this is not the gist of the witness's

14 testimony.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit me, Your Honours, when

16 it refer -- reference is made to technical matters, this I construe as to

17 mean operative techniques or technics.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: The issue is if the translation of paragraph 11 is

19 the same -- is correct.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no. And I'm very

21 grateful for your focussing on this. This is not our translation. This

22 is a document procured by the Prosecutor, and the term "technical" as the

23 witness has testified, has a different meaning.

24 But let us clarify this.

25 Q. Witness, could you please explain the essence of item 10. Could

Page 5143

1 you read it? I correct myself, item 11.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just tell us what is says in the Bosnian language.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnian, it says in professional

4 aspects, which means -- shall I continue?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please, because that was going to be my next

6 question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In professional terms, which means

8 to take measures and actions primarily operative measures or actions or to

9 put it more simply, whether a person or a security concern should be the

10 target of certain measures falling within the remitt of the military

11 security, and, of course, what kind of measures should be taken.

12 Ranging from operative measures to criminal prosecution.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what confuses me, Witness. When you now

14 say: "Ranging from -- from operative measures to criminal prosecution."

15 I would have thought that if it says they shall control their professional

16 work, it means that they control the work they do in the furtherance of

17 military security services. But now when you talk of criminal

18 prosecution, that sounds to me a disciplinary matter, which doesn't fall

19 within their work. It looks like it is something that would fall to be

20 controlled by the command -- command of the unit to which they belong.

21 Am I wrong in thinking so?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in a couple of minutes

23 time I'm going to be dwelling on those matters as regulated by this rule

24 and this is what I anticipate to clarify with the witness with your

25 indulgence.

Page 5144


2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness we are going to revisit this issue of criminal

4 prosecution -- criminal proceedings and procedure.

5 But what I'd like to ask you is: Everyday engagements of members

6 of military security had to be compliant with the provisions of these

7 rules. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like to ask you questions on portions of your statement where

10 you provided testimony of the remitt of the work of the Military Security

11 Administration of the General Staff.

12 In paragraph 24 of your statement you describe that the Security

13 Administration of the Supreme Command staff received documents from corps.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Then in paragraphs 25, 26, 29, 30, 31, and 32, you describe how

17 the Security Administration of the Supreme Command staff functioned.

18 Security Administration, as far as I could grasp, and please correct me if

19 I'm wrong, established such a system whereby documents which would be

20 received from corps would be received at the head's office?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And that they would be distributed to departments pursuant to

23 their competencies. Is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Head of administration would, as far as I could divine, personally

Page 5145

1 peruse the documents and issue missions and tasks to departments. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In connection with the content of documents he would undertake

5 concrete or specific steps or activities. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He would issue orders to commands of military security service.

8 This means his own administration and also orders aimed at departments of

9 military security service at corps level. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. To them, he would issue directions and he was -- it was incumbent

12 upon him to direct their work. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At this moment, Your Honours, could document D633 be shown to the

15 witness, please. D633. And I will be revisiting the one presently

16 displayed on the screen.

17 Witness, please, this is a brief document. Could you please take

18 a look at its contents and for the benefit of the transcript, I'm going to

19 state that this is a document by the Supreme Command staff of the Armed

20 Forces, dated 10th December 1993. It is entitled: Tasks, and it is

21 addressed to the 3rd Corps command military security sector chief.

22 Are you familiar with this signature?

23 A. I'm the author of this document and it was signed by

24 General Jasarevic.

25 Q. This document is addressed to the 3rd Corps command. Is that so?

Page 5146

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And it is entitled: Tasks?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. By this document, administration head refers to an earlier

5 information that he received from security service of the 3rd Corps and

6 refers to the date of the 4th of December, 1993. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And there he says that the information contained in your report

9 concerning Gerila and El Mujahid Detachment that they are important, they

10 merit special attention and that they are indicative because, as it says,

11 it reflects that some foreigners are members from the Muslim brotherhood

12 and demands that the 3rd Corps command take all measures with respect to

13 that.

14 Unfortunately, in the B/C/S we have a black line. But do you

15 agree that it also reads that, please bear in mind the position of the

16 Supreme Command staff commander who, on the 9th of December, 1993, was

17 sent to the 3rd Corps commander, or sent in writing.

18 And further down it says that reports on all new information

19 should be sent promptly.

20 And now, you will agree with me, won't you, that this document is

21 an example of how the security -- military security service functioned in

22 practice. Is that so?

23 A. Yes, that's so. I very well remember this document, because I

24 authored it.

25 Q. [No interpretation]

Page 5147

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will have to repeat my question.

3 Q. You said that you recalled the document. Let me go back several

4 questions.

5 I asked you the following. This document is an example of how the

6 work of the military security service looked like in practice. Is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We can see that in the specific problem involving Gerila and

10 Gerila El Mujahedin, the Security Administration was informed about it

11 from the security organ of the 3rd Corps.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In connection with this problem, it is evident that the Security

14 Administration processed the problem, and issued certain tasks to the

15 department of the military security service of the 3rd Corps? Is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes, that's right, and this happened on a daily basis.

18 Q. As part of the remitt of the -- of the Military Security

19 Administration, on any specific problem it was supposed to issue

20 instructions and tasks to a lower level military security service. Is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes. In accordance with the rules.

23 Q. Furthermore, the task of the Security Administration was to give

24 suggestions to the staff of the Supreme Command on how a certain issue was

25 to be resolved. Is that right?

Page 5148

1 A. Yes, on how a certain issue was to be resolved?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes. But only in those cases in which the commander or the

4 General Staff were competent.

5 Q. Yes, yes. In fact I was referring only to those matters that fell

6 within the competence of the Supreme Command and we will get back later to

7 the sensitive processing that you were involved in.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask that you pause while the witness is

9 answering, Madam Vidovic, because I think you are overlapping. Thank you

10 very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 Q. Witness, I'll kindly ask you the following. Please remember the

13 date of the 9th of December, 1993, referred to in this document, where the

14 document mentions this position that was presented by the commander of the

15 Supreme Command staff and that was sent to the commander of the 3rd Corps

16 on the 9th of December, 1993. I will have a question to put to you about

17 this at a later stage. Right now, Your Honours, I would like to tender

18 this document into evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 758.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In this document, we saw that the -- the command that was superior

25 to the organ of the -- of the military security service was issuing

Page 5149

1 instructions to it. Is that right?

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. If the chief of the Security Administration believed --

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said: Yes, that's

5 correct. Can this witness's answer be entered into the record? The

6 witness confirmed that that was correct.

7 Q. Witness, can you please repeat your last answer?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Thank you very much. If the chief of the Security Administration

10 believed that some other department of the General Staff should deal with

11 a particular matter, and not only the Security Administration, that

12 particular document would be forwarded to the relevant department. Is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The commanding officer of the Security Administration, that's to

16 say, the chief of the Security Administration, had within his discretion

17 to decide about -- on what matters he would inform other departments of

18 the staff of the supreme command and on what matters to inform the

19 commander of the staff of the supreme command. Am I right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. My next question will have to do with the bulletins shown to you

22 by the Prosecutor today at the end of his examination-in-chief.

23 You confirmed their authenticity. However, now I want to ask you

24 the following. The Prosecutor didn't show you the originals of these

25 bulletins, did he? You only saw their photocopies. Is that right?

Page 5150

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. These photocopies enabled you to look at photocopies of stamps.

3 Am I right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Therefore, you did not review the original bulletins, so it was

6 not on that basis that you could establish whether the photocopies shown

7 to you by the Prosecutor corresponded to the originals of the documents

8 which are filed in the military security service. And that's right, is it

9 not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Only if you reviewed the originals of the bulletins and special

12 information reports and not their photocopies, and if you then compared

13 them with the photocopies shown to you by the Prosecutor, only then would

14 you be able to confirm that those were indeed photocopies of the

15 originals. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right. I did not have occasion to see the originals.

17 Q. When it comes to these originals --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like the

19 witness to have a look at Exhibit 710 that the Prosecutor showed him.

20 Exhibit 710.

21 Q. Witness, I'm interested in page 1 and I will have questions about

22 that page.

23 Earlier today --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 1 of the

25 Bosnian version back on our screens.

Page 5151

1 Can you show us the first page in the Bosnian version. Thank you.

2 Q. Today the Prosecutor asked you what number 1 meant --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I'm referring to

4 this witness's evidence on page 21, line 13.

5 Q. -- where you said copy number 1 is the original copy which stays

6 in the archives. Do you recall stating that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this

10 document away now.

11 I would like the witness to look at Exhibit 376.

12 Q. Witness, my understanding is that on the basis of number 1, you

13 concluded that this could be the original copy of this document. Is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Witness, please take a look at this document. This is a document

17 from the staff of the Supreme Command Security Administration dated the

18 22nd of July, 1993.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please see the

20 signature block in the B/C/S version. Right.

21 Q. Do you agree that this is an order about the way in which the

22 bulletins and special information reports are to be delivered, the ones

23 from the Security Administration, and it is stated that they should be

24 made in five copies.

25 Look, it says here, copy number 1, is in fact intended for the

Page 5152

1 president of the Presidency.

2 Copy number 2, for the commander of the staff.

3 And you will agree that copy number 5 is intended for the

4 archives.

5 Do you allow for the possibility that you overlooked the existence

6 of this order?

7 A. Yes, of course. I -- my memory obviously failed me in this regard

8 and I made a mistake in stating earlier on since copy number 5 was the one

9 that was archived. Copy number 5.

10 Q. Yes. Good. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this

12 document away now.

13 Q. I would like to us look at another document that you were shown

14 before. And that's Exhibit 377.

15 If this is page 64, and I mean if that's the page that the witness

16 looked at earlier on, 64. No, this isn't the one, because the other one

17 was delivered personally to Mr. Arnautovic. This is fine, yes.

18 Witness, do you recall testifying about this document? When

19 asked by the Prosecutor, you explained that the document we looked at a

20 moment ago, namely bulletin 161, was sent to Kakanj KM, with the contents

21 and it says that the army general should be briefed on the contents of

22 that particular bulletin. And it is General Delic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt?

24 Madam Vidovic, you called for Exhibit 377. Is this it?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5153

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document here?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because when you called for Exhibit 377, a document

4 dated 30th of December, 1995, came up. Was it the wrong document?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a set of documents. It's a

8 large exhibit containing this one page that is relevant to me, which is

9 page 64.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That makes -- okay. Thank

11 you so much.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, this bulletin, 161, was sent to Kakanj, so that the

14 commander of the General Staff may be informed about it.

15 Would you accept that you were not in a position to know whether

16 Mr. Arnautovic had indeed briefed General Delic on this document?

17 A. I cannot know about that. It's only natural. Besides, my

18 attention was always focussed on my department and on performing all my

19 tasks in a timely manner. Of course, in the absence of General Jasarevic

20 I was the one signing the document, apparently.

21 Q. Good. You were not in a position to know whether the General was

22 there at that point in time or whether the document was sent to

23 General Hadzihasanovic who was standing in for him perhaps at the time.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Of course. My obligation ceased the moment the document was sent.

Page 5154

1 From that point on, I didn't know anything else about it, nor was I

2 interested in knowing about it.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, I will have several other questions for you

4 concerning reporting.

5 At the moment, I would like the witness to be shown P2078. This

6 is one of the documents that was part of the binder that the learned

7 friend from the OTP showed to you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not aware of its exhibit number,

9 Madam Vidovic, because that binder now has been admitted.

10 THE REGISTRAR: 731, Your Honour.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I failed

12 to note it down.

13 Q. Please take a look at the last page on this document. The last

14 page of the document.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to point

16 your attention to the fact that it is the penultimate page in the English

17 version. The preceding page in the English version, please. Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, please, this document discusses the matter of the

19 desecration of a Catholic graveyard and as possible perpetrators reference

20 is made to members of the El Mujahedin Detachment. What I'd be interested

21 in and, of course, there is a reference about another incident at the

22 Zeljezno Polje, if can you see that?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. What I would be interested in as follows. Please read the

25 sentence somewhere in the middle of this document and I'm going to quote

Page 5155

1 it. "Military Security Service, in cooperation with the state security

2 service of Zenica is working on identifying the perpetrators." And also

3 please take a look at the last sentence here. This would be the next page

4 in the English version, please. We have the right page of the Bosnian

5 version but we need the next page of the English version.

6 And it says here: "The Military Security Service is working on

7 finding the perpetrators of this explosion and to this aim, it is

8 assessing information about the conduct of the members of a unit belonging

9 to the El Mujahedin Detachment which has its base in this village."

10 And now, in connection with this, I would like to ask you the

11 following. Recipients - I'm talking about in principle, I'm not going to

12 discuss this specific event - I'm asking about the principles of reporting

13 and action taken in response to these bulletins.

14 Would you agree with me that the recipients of this bulletin,

15 whoever they may be, would understand from the bulletin that the Military

16 Security Service is already taking all measures following within its

17 competence. Is that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it can be seen that perpetrators -- it is -- work is ongoing

20 on identifying the perpetrators which had not been identified up to that

21 point. Is that so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you would agree with me that if, in this bulletin and in the

24 other bulletins that you had occasion to see, bore reference that the

25 Military Security Service is undertaking measures, et cetera, then

Page 5156

1 recipients would not necessarily be in a position to instruct or issue

2 certain measures to be taken. Would you accept that as a fact?

3 A. That's perfectly clear. This would be within the competences of

4 those organisational units of Military Security Service or the subordinate

5 units of the Military Security Service.

6 Q. Such reference in bulletins and special information reports would

7 be a signal to the recipients of those documents that issues are being

8 resolved. Isn't that so, that they are being worked on. Is that correct?

9 A. That's clear.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could the witness be shown,

11 please, document D634.

12 Q. Witness, I'm going to dwell on this -- on these questions

13 concerning the principles of reporting within the Military Security

14 Service, a couple of minutes more, and I'm invoking document D634. Please

15 take a look at this document.

16 Do you agree that this is a document of the Military Security

17 Service administration dated 15th of May, 1995, that it is entitled: New

18 information on the conduct of individual members of the El Mujahid

19 Detachment?

20 A. I agree.

21 Q. Do you agree that this document is addressed to Fikret Muslimovic

22 personally?

23 A. I agree.

24 Q. Which means that the head of administration of Military Security

25 Service, that he assessed that this issue ought to be resolved by the

Page 5157

1 department for morale. This was his estimate of the situation. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Could you take a look at the end of this document, please.

5 Witness, please take a look at this note at the very end. The

6 Military Security Service has been working to identify those who set off

7 the explosion including checking of information on the conduct of members

8 of a unit of the El Mujahid Detachment and in connection with this

9 incident, it is also stated that the Military Security Service is working

10 to detect the perpetrators.

11 Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct. With the indulgence of Their Honours, may I

13 explain?

14 Apart from the El Mujahedin Detachment, there were other

15 paramilitary groups of foreigners who had perpetrated criminal offences

16 and often security organs would ascribe such criminal offences to El

17 Mujahedin Detachment members. I will give you an example. The murder of

18 Dr. Zenajid, and I can't recall his family name, near Konjic. That murder

19 was perpetrated by foreign nationals, who frequently were among

20 humanitarian organisation's activities but also acted as armed

21 paramilitary groups.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I explain. The

24 witness very simply and clearly, in the clearest and simplest possible

25 terms, describes this situation. However, on page 52, lines 2 to 8,

Page 5158

1 transcript does not reflect what the witness is stating in very simple

2 Bosnian terms.

3 Q. Please, Witness I'm going to resolve this matter through my

4 questions.

5 Witness, do you agree that you just said that apart from the El

6 Mujahedin Detachment there were other paramilitary groups who perpetrated

7 criminal offences. Did you say that?

8 A. That is what I said, yes.

9 Q. Also, you cited an example of the murder of a doctor or a

10 physician, and also you said that -- that actions of other paramilitary

11 groups were ascribed to the El Mujahedin Detachment members. Did you say

12 that?

13 A. Yes, this is what I stated.

14 Q. And this frequently was not the case. Am I correct in saying

15 that?

16 A. This is what we established subsequently. Our sources, our

17 operative sources, if they saw the perpetrator wearing a beard, they would

18 ascribe that criminal offence to the El Mujahedin Detachment. There were

19 such cases.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this explanation. And for this reason the

21 Military Security Service sought that perpetrators be identified. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Of course.

24 Q. You will agree with me, won't you, that was not a simple task

25 concerning that we -- that they had to deal with such people, I mean Arabs

Page 5159

1 and by this I mean it was difficult for both police and Military Security

2 Service.

3 A. Of course, it was difficult. I had pre-war experiences when it

4 comes to extremists or similar structures, and I know that this is a very

5 difficult and very responsible task.

6 Q. Could you briefly explain your experience, because I don't know

7 anything about it.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it relevant, Madam Vidovic?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is, Your Honours, for the

10 Defence, yes.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you mentioned, it was difficult

12 to detect the funders and the perpetrators of criminal offences, which

13 were part of a framework of any extremist activity. This is what I meant

14 by my words.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I'm not going to dwell on this any

17 longer.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I want to understand.

19 Are these funders and perpetrators of criminal offences before the

20 war, that's your pre-war experience?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 At this point, I would like to tender this document into evidence.

Page 5160

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 759.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, could you take a look at document D635, please.

7 Please, Witness, do you agree that this is a document by Military

8 Security Service administration dated the 10th of July, 1995, and it also

9 deals with threats from members of the El Mujahedin Detachment to soldiers

10 of the 328th Brigade. And do you agree that in this case as well, this

11 information was delivered to the morale guidance administration to the

12 brigadier general Fikret Muslimovic. Can you confirm that?

13 A. I can.

14 Q. Do you agree that the document shows that the General Jasarevic

15 assessed that this issue ought to be dealt with by the morale -- morale

16 guidance administration and that he advised that administration of this.

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, please take a look at the penultimate sentence. And do you

20 agree it reads: "In cooperation with the RiK, or command and control

21 organs, the Military Security Service is taking measures to resolve this

22 problem."

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Therefore, it is concluded that the problems are being dealt with

25 by Security Administration, that measures are being taken. Am I correct

Page 5161

1 in saying that?

2 A. Yes, this is correct. This is a document authored by my

3 department and the author was Adnan Muratovic.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document into

6 evidence, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

8 please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 760.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Describing the work of the administration in paragraph 21 of your

13 statement, you explain that you would have morning briefings with the head

14 of your administration, where you would be handed down tasks and missions

15 and where you would inform your superior head of administration, of your

16 work. And you say that minutes of such briefings would be taken. I'm

17 going to revisit those minutes at a later point. But now I would like to

18 ask you something else. I would like to work on the issue that was of

19 interest of His Honour Judge Moloto and that concerned involvement of

20 military security in criminal prosecutions.

21 Do you recall that you confirmed to us that the Military Security

22 Service administration in professional terms controlled and managed the

23 work of subordinate organs and that after -- and this is what you state in

24 paragraph 31 of your statement. By saying that General Jasarevic would

25 issue instructions and orders to military security departments at corps

Page 5162

1 level and also you state that, in this very same paragraph 31 of your

2 statement, you also say that chief of Supreme Command staff did not need

3 an approval to issue instructions to his subordinate organs and units.

4 Is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. You explained also in paragraph 31 that the authorisation of the

7 commander of the staff of the Supreme Command was required for the chief

8 of administration at a point when the Military Security Service was

9 supposed to apply special methods and resources which normally encroach

10 upon the constitutionally guaranteed rights of citizens. Do you

11 understand my question?

12 The authorisation issued by the commander of the staff of the

13 supreme command was required by the Military Security Administration only

14 when it came to sensitive matters which encroached upon constitutionally

15 guaranteed rights, such as wire-tapping, surveillance and so on and so

16 forth?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Covert monitoring --

19 A. Yes, that too.

20 Q. This did not, of course, mean that in giving that authorisation

21 the commander would also authorise the institution of criminal proceedings

22 or the start of criminal prosecution. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe we will be

25 revisiting the issue of criminal proceedings after the break.

Page 5163

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And before we take the break, this very last

2 question that you asked seems to contradict what the witness specifically

3 says in his statement at that very paragraph, 31. At paragraph 31 he

4 says: "Only on very sensitive issues like if somebody should be

5 criminally prosecuted, he would need an approval from Rasim Delic." But

6 think the last question you asked suggests the contrary, ma'am.

7 Can we deal with that when we come back.

8 Is that a convenient time?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment, please.

10 It seems to me that the Prosecutor did not supply you with the corrected

11 version of the witness's statement, because the witness corrected this,

12 and I'm referring to paragraph 31.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. I concede that this may not

14 necessarily be the consolidated statement that has been uploaded this

15 afternoon. Can we have a look at that paragraph when we come back.

16 Thank you so much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we'll take a break and come back at quarter to

19 6.00.

20 Court adjourned.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe we left off

25 at paragraph 31 of the consolidated witness statement.

Page 5164

1 If you deem it necessary, we can show the witness paragraph 31 of

2 his statement in the Bosnian version.

3 Can the witness be shown PT6202.

4 Can we also have the corresponding page of the English version on

5 the screen, please. It starts on page 6 of the English version.

6 Your Honours, I'm referring to the consolidated statement. I

7 should like the witness to look at the bottom part, starting with: "The

8 authorisation of Rasim Delic."

9 In English, it's the next page.

10 Q. I'll quote this, witness, so that we can confirm that this is

11 indeed the part of the statement that I referred to previously.

12 Paragraph 31, in the section where it says: "Only on very

13 sensitive issues such as, for instance, commencing operative treatment of

14 a person, commencing operative activities or the use of special methods

15 and measures vis-a-vis a person, surveillance, monitoring, et cetera, he

16 would need an approval from Rasim Delic. My -- for all the issues that my

17 department dealt with, orders could be given without the authorisation of

18 Rasim Delic."

19 Therefore, it was only for these special methods that

20 General Delic needed to give his authorisation to the Military Security

21 Service, for its work. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would have a question for this

24 witness.

25 If I'm not mistaken, what I see here is that in this paragraph you

Page 5165

1 make reference to activities which, to my mind, seem to be activities of

2 the security department -- department. Am I wrong?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are activities of the

4 military security department. However, according to the rules governing

5 the Military Security Service, for such a subtle activity as -- as is

6 covert surveillance, monitoring, listening in and so on and so forth, the

7 authorisation of General Rasim Delic was required.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I understand. But you think that

9 when it comes to delicate questions in certain sectors you don't mean here

10 all delicate situations or delicate questions. So there could be some

11 other delicate questions, don't you? On the basis of this declaration, am

12 I wrong what delicate questions were there? I want your explanation.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, quite clearly, not all such

14 activities were listed here, not all such sensitive issues as I refer to

15 them in my statement. Such activities called for an authorisation of

16 General Delic, or, rather, from an army commander, whenever an operative

17 action was to be taken, such as operative action Vranduk team and some

18 other actions conducted by the Military Security Service; or when a

19 certain person or a certain case was to be given operative treatment,

20 which meant taking a broader range of measures and activities with a view

21 to documenting, or, rather, detecting and documenting a criminal activity

22 of a given person; or where a negative activity was to be documented in a

23 group, such as, for instance, Trebevic operative action, where -- which

24 was taken across a wider, a broader territory under the control of the

25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on several occasions, and I believe that there

Page 5166

1 five or six such operations. In short, such operations required the

2 authorisation of Commander Delic.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, do you agree with me that everything you have just

8 explained to the Trial Chamber is specifically regulated in the rules

9 governing the work of the Military Security Administration, that you had

10 occasion to look at previously?

11 A. Yes, and I said that in my early answer.

12 Q. Very well. In order to clarify these matters, I want the witness

13 to look at Exhibit 585.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, could we just ask the witness then

15 what the last sentence in paragraph 31 means.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, do you see that, or do you want me to read it out for

18 you?

19 A. Yes, I can see that and it's quite clear. Perhaps it's not

20 precise enough.

21 For all operative issues that my department maybe dealing with,

22 orders could be issued without the authorisation from Rasim Delic. This

23 went or applied not only to the Military Security Administration but also

24 to the lower level organs such as those of the corps, division, brigade,

25 they could take measures even without the authorisation of the Military

Page 5167

1 Security Administration, let alone the authorisation from Commander Delic.

2 They could file criminal reports against the perpetrators of offences, of

3 criminal offences.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just about to

5 deal with this matter, because Exhibit 585 contains these precise rules.

6 So can we please put away the document that we have on our screens

7 right now and look at Exhibit 585. We would like page 10 of the Bosnian

8 version and page 7 of the English version to be shown; namely, chapter 4,

9 pages 10 of the Bosnian and 7 of the English version.

10 Can you zoom in on that exact part. Yes, thank you. Chapter 4.

11 Q. Do you agree that this portion of the document, as you see it,

12 regulates the powers and responsibilities of officers in the Military

13 Security Service in the performance of their duties?

14 A. This is precisely what I had in mind.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page now, in

17 both versions.

18 Q. Witness, I want to draw your attention to Articles 32, 33, and 34

19 of the Rules of the Military Security Service, which concern the filing of

20 criminal reports for the criminal offences within the jurisdiction of --

21 of military courts.

22 Before you proceed to read this, Witness, I want to ask you the

23 following. All the criminal offences within the competence of the

24 Military Security Service were in fact criminal offences within the

25 jurisdiction of military courts in times of war. Is that right?

Page 5168

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 Q. This included serious criminal offences such as war crimes,

3 murder, and similar crimes. Is that right?

4 A. Yes, this is quite easily seen in the bulletins where we were

5 informing the recipients of the units which had initiated criminal

6 proceedings against individuals suspected of committing crimes.

7 Q. Can you please focus on Article 32 and read it.

8 No, please read it to yourself and I will have a question for you.

9 Do you agree that the provisions of Article 32 of the Rules of the

10 Military Security Service clearly regulates that the authorised commanding

11 officers of the Military Security Service can arrest an individual and

12 arraign him before a military court without delay, where there is

13 reasonable doubt to believe that a crime was committed which falls within

14 the jurisdiction of a military court?

15 A. Yes, precisely so. And, as I said earlier, an illustration of

16 Article 32 can be found, or, rather, of its application, can be found in

17 the contents of the bulletins.

18 Q. Fine. Now, please take a look at the provision of Article 34.

19 Moreover, Military Security Service could order detention for such

20 a person lasting up to three days before delivering that person to an

21 investigating magistrate. Is that so?

22 A. Yes, this is so.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we'd like to take a

24 look at page 13 in Bosnian and page 9 of the English version, a section

25 which specifically regulates the conduct of Military Security Service in

Page 5169

1 criminal proceedings.

2 Q. Witness, please, can you confirm that chapter 5 regulates the

3 conduct of Military Security Service in criminal proceedings?

4 And, Witness, please, focus on Articles 40 and 41, because these

5 refer to the gist, the core of our discussion. Please read it to yourself

6 and then I'll ask you questions.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you scroll up please, in English.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. 40 and

9 41. Now it's okay.

10 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you this: Do you agree that the

11 provision of Article 40 regulates that officers of the Military Security

12 Service are duty-bound to take measures to detect and identify

13 perpetrators of criminal offences to detect and secure evidence for the

14 purposes of criminal proceedings?

15 A. Yes, this is clearly stated here.

16 Q. And now please read Article 41.

17 Do you agree that this provision of Article 41 of the rules of

18 operations of the Military Security Service governs that officers of the

19 Military Security Service in the command of the brigade or a corresponding

20 or higher-ranking officer in the Military Security Service submit to the

21 competent military prosecutor's office a criminal report?

22 A. Yes, this is perfectly clear.

23 Q. Therefore, please, it is the duty of a military security service

24 officer, be it an officer in a brigade organ or in a corps or in a

25 division, is whenever they receive information about a perpetrated

Page 5170

1 criminal offence, to collect evidence and to submit a criminal report to

2 the competent prosecutor. Am I right in saying so?

3 A. Yes, you are perfectly right in saying so. I'd like to add,

4 though, that it is their duty to collect documents admissible in court

5 apart from information and data.

6 Q. Of course. Thank you very much, Witness.

7 Therefore, it is not incumbent upon them to write information

8 about criminal offences. It is incumbent upon them to collect evidence

9 and to submit a criminal report to the competent prosecution service.

10 A. This is correct.

11 Q. This is the original competence deriving from this rule on the

12 operation of Military Security Service and for that they do not need any

13 special approvals. Is that so?

14 A. This is so.

15 Q. Please, during the war, there were thousands of criminal reports

16 filed with prosecutors in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the part

17 of Military Security Service on the basis of those rules. Am I right in

18 saying so?

19 A. You are right and this can be corroborated in the annexes of

20 numerous bulletins that we issued.

21 Q. Do you agree with me also that a criminal report could be filed

22 against persons unknown and in cooperation with competent prosecutor it

23 could be possible to take measures to identify such perpetrators and to

24 collect evidence against them?

25 A. Yes, that's perfectly clear.

Page 5171

1 Q. So, the rule that we have before us precisely regulated how the

2 Military Security Service should conduct itself in initiating criminal

3 proceedings and no advice, approvals were not necessary to do so. Is that

4 right?

5 A. This is right. This is correct.

6 Q. Fine.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you don't have any

8 questions concerning this, we may put this document away.

9 Q. Now I'd like to ask you about another thing concerning your

10 testimony.

11 You discussed how commander of the General Staff would be

12 informed. I'd like to ask you in connection with this the following. The

13 administration that you worked in was in charge of preparing analytical

14 and information materials for the reporting and information of the

15 competent commands of state organs. Is that so?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. In connection with this, your administration could propose

18 necessary security measures and activities. Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Your department within that administration that you worked in,

21 sent its reports exclusively to the head of the administration within the

22 General Staff -- no, I apologise, the head of the administration.

23 So you sent your reports to the head of your administration and by

24 this I mean General Jasarevic. I may have expressed my thought

25 incorrectly. Did you understand?

Page 5172

1 A. Yes, I understood. This was the procedure. Whenever my

2 department would prepare a document for the purpose of informing somebody,

3 be it a bulletin or special information report, an analysis, all such

4 documents I delivered to General Jasarevic, who then authenticated them.

5 Q. At this junction I'd like to clarify paragraph 33 of your

6 statement.

7 You will agree with me when I say that General Jasarevic decided

8 on what and to what extent he would be informing the commander. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. This is correct. And General Jasarevic, if he was present, would

11 note which important information should be forwarded to General Delic.

12 Q. I'm not referring to bulletins; I'm referring to meetings and

13 informations. This is what I'm discussing.

14 A. Yes, meetings and information.

15 Q. Now I'm going to --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: How much longer are you going to be? You've taken

17 1 hour 30 minutes; your colleague took 1 hour 4 minutes. I know he filed

18 a -- bundle of documents --

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need more time

20 for certain. The Prosecutor has tendered a large number of documents

21 pursuant to 92 ter, and this means I would need more time and I believe

22 that my learned colleagues would be in agreement that I need more time to

23 discuss many documents. If I can be given another hour, Your Honours,

24 please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on, Madam Vidovic.

Page 5173

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honours.

2 Thank you.

3 Q. You discussed bulletins and special information reports, and you

4 stated that they would be sent to specific addresses. Is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. When you concluded your work, when you put a bulletin into an

7 envelope, from that point on, you do not know whether the addressee, be it

8 Commander Delic, President Izetbegovic or the Ministry of Defence, you do

9 not know whether that person received that bulletin or not until it's

10 returned and I'm going to discuss this later on. So if it doesn't bear

11 any comments on it, you do not know whether the bulletin has been read by

12 the recipient or not. Is that correct? I mean that recipient personally.

13 A. This was not an issue of my interest and neither did it fall

14 within my job description.

15 Q. Well, in your statement, you said that some information would be

16 returned bearing a comment in longhand, written by General Delic, and then

17 you would personally conclude that he had read that information report.

18 Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. In paragraph 40 of your statement, you said that documents that

21 would be returned bearing comments, which would include Mr. Delic as a

22 recipient, were destroyed. Do you recall stating so?

23 A. Yes, I do recall.

24 Q. Would you accept that it is possible that those documents were not

25 destroyed or partially destroyed?

Page 5174

1 A. That's correct. Because being short of paper, even such documents

2 were archived sometimes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, was your question like that, as it

4 appears on the screen.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What is missing is a small part. My

6 question was: Would you accept that after all, all these documents, all,

7 were not destroyed. The word "all" was missing. That was my question,

8 Your Honours. I cannot really keep an eye on the transcript and what the

9 witness is saying.

10 Q. Did you understand my question, Witness? My question was, would

11 you accept that all documents that were returned annotated in longhand

12 were not destroyed?

13 A. Yes, this is what I said just now. Sometimes being short of

14 paper, we did not produce a copy for our purposes but would archive a

15 copy, annotated or returned by the commander or some other recipient and

16 in this way, we would save paper. We did not have much paper during

17 wartime.

18 Q. So I understood --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask one question.

20 Now all documents which were returned without having been

21 annotated in longhand, what became of them?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were destroyed because they

23 were surplus. They were not needed.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5175

1 Q. And now, in your testimony, you mentioned written notations of

2 General Delic, and from that, I conclude that you are able to recognise

3 such notations. Am I correct in saying so?

4 A. Yes, I most probably would be able to do so.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May we show, Your Honours, document

6 D636 to the witness, please. This is the same document as P1640, but it's

7 not annotated in longhand and both originate from the documentation of the

8 OTP. I decided to use this one which bears a note, handwritten note.

9 Q. Witness, can you confirm that this is a special information

10 report?

11 And could we zoom in on the handwritten note.

12 This is a special information report, number 234, dated -- and at

13 that time when this was produced, you were in -- an analyst in the

14 department of military security. Is that so?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. Let's take a look at the last page of this document to see the

17 signature block.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, that's page 3, Your

19 Honours.

20 Q. Do you recognise this signature?

21 A. Yes, I do recognise this. This is General Jasarevic's signature.

22 Q. Very well.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at page 2 of the

24 document. Page 2 of the document.

25 Q. Towards the top, please take a look and see -- please take a look

Page 5176

1 and what is written at the bottom of the document where it describes

2 sector of military security of the 3rd Corps. Can you confirm that this

3 special information report concerns the conduct of foreign citizens in the

4 area of responsibility of the 3rd -- of the corps and concerns the units

5 of Gerila and Mujahedin. Can you confirm that?

6 A. Yes, I can see that.

7 Q. The portion -- can you please read that portion of the text.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This part of the text contains a suggestion of the Military

10 Security Service to the recipients of this special report that without any

11 delay, they should prevent the criminal conduct and war profiteering

12 carried out by some of these individuals. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let us go back to page 1 of this document. I want to draw your

15 attention to the handwritten annotation. Would you agree with me that

16 this annotation has two parts, or, rather that it's been written, so it

17 seems by two different individuals?

18 A. Yes, that is quite evident.

19 Q. Do you recognise anyone's signature, anyone's handwriting, rather?

20 A. I believe that the handwriting at the top is by Commander Delic

21 and that the handwriting of the bottom part of the text is by analyst

22 Husnija Sajdinovic and I do recognise his handwriting; we used to work in

23 the service together before the war.

24 Q. Very well. Can you read the top annotation which was written by,

25 as you say, General Delic?

Page 5177

1 A. Yes, I've read it.

2 Q. Do you agree that it reads: If that is indeed the conduct as

3 described herein, it should be sorted out militarily?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

6 admitted into evidence, because the copy attended by the Prosecution does

7 not have this handwritten annotation.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number 761.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In your evidence, you said that you saw annotations written by

14 Commander Delic in various documents. Please, Witness, were these

15 annotations of the same nature such as this one? Were they in the form of

16 an order aiming at resolving problems, rather than covering them up?

17 A. Yes, that is quite evident. In addition to such -- in addition to

18 such annotations General Jasarevic would convey to us during the morning

19 briefings we had similar instructions that he had received from

20 General Delic, such as, for instance, when the implementation of operative

21 action Vranduk was discussed, we were told that this should be the

22 priority of the Military Security Service.

23 Therefore, General Delic insisted that this action, or, rather,

24 that the implementation of the measures arising from this action, be the

25 priority task of the Military Security Service.

Page 5178

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this document away now.

3 On the same topic, I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

4 690.

5 Q. Witness, before you take a look at the document, do you remember

6 me asking you to commit to your memory the date which was in fact a

7 handwritten annotation on one of the documents mentioning the order of

8 General Delic and some sort of -- his position. This was a document dated

9 the 10th of December, 1993, number 758 where General Jasarevic issued

10 tasks to the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps.

11 Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember me asking you to remember the date of the 9th of

14 December, as the date of the document wherein General Jasarevic told the

15 Military Security Service to keep in mind the position of the commander of

16 the Supreme Command in resolving these matters. This position that was

17 contained in a written document.

18 Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please look at this document now dated 9 December 1993, tasks for

21 further crackdown on illegal activities in the ARBiH units addressed to

22 the 3rd Corps command.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll down the

24 document, or, rather, can we see the entire document for the benefit of

25 the witness.

Page 5179

1 Q. I believe you had this document in mind when you were writing that

2 document. I believe you said you authored that document we looked at a

3 moment ago. Is this the document you had in mind? Have a look at it,

4 please.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Do you agree that the position of the commander of the staff of

7 the supreme command is quite unequivocal here. He is asking to apply all

8 available measures in order to make sure that units are placed under

9 control?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. And that if this is impossible, the units should be destroyed.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go to the next page of

13 this document, Your Honours.

14 Q. Do you agree with me that the units discussed in this document are

15 the units called Gerila, Mujahedin and El Mujahedin?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Similarly, at the end of the document, it is stated: Keep us duly

18 informed on the course of assign the tasks and if you encounter any

19 serious difficulties.

20 Do you agree with me that that handwritten order by

21 Commander Delic that you saw in that document referred to this written

22 document concerning the Gerila, Mujahedin and El Mujahedin units?

23 A. Yes, that's quite clear.

24 Q. In fact, it is true that General Delic had fully accepted the

25 assessment provided by the chief of the Military Security Administration

Page 5180

1 and supported his opinion that all available steps should be taken in

2 order to make sure that these units are placed under the control and

3 command of the army, and if this should prove to be impossible, that they

4 should be destroyed?

5 A. I have been aware of this even without looking at the document,

6 since I was present at the meetings when Commander Delic would tour the

7 various departments, including the Military Security Administration, where

8 he presented his positions, I can say that they are identical to the

9 positions presented in these -- in this document.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I get help here. Does the B/C/S version talk

11 of if something is impossible, they should be destroyed?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure of the term destroyed,

13 Your Honours, but ...

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my concern because I don't remember seeing

15 it on the English version.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In putting the question to the

17 witness, no, I didn't use the term "destroy." I used a term "clearing up"

18 or something like that, perhaps it was misinterpreted, to clear up. In

19 fact, could we have page one of the document.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What would clearing up mean anyway?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, let us go back to

22 that. The document speaks clearly about that.

23 Q. Witness, look at paragraph 1 and I will quote that part. It will

24 be faster and clearer.

25 The document says: "With the aim of successfully carrying out the

Page 5181

1 decisions of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

2 orders of the staff of the Supreme Command on dealing with illegal

3 activities in the units of the army, as well as the behaviour that

4 endangers unified and flawless functioning of the command and control

5 system, take necessary measures without delay and in a proper manner to

6 resolutely stamp out such problems in the units that are mainly

7 comprised -- that are exclusively or mainly comprised of foreign

8 nationals."

9 Witness, you heard what His Honour asked. What does this resolute

10 clamp-down mean?

11 A. In the Bosnian language, it means to clarify, to make more

12 precise, to gather fresh information, take measures, shed light on, that

13 sort of thing. This term was normally used by security services and

14 that's why it may be perhaps unclear.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Let me be sure I understand you, sir.

16 You say in B/C/S, stamp out or clamp down means clarify, find more

17 information.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, but there

19 seems to be -- there seem to be totally two different tracks in

20 interpretation.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

22 continues]... Ask interpreters to help us to clarify.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I didn't -- the interpreter was still

24 talking and I didn't hear what she said.

25 I'm sorry. It's not even there on the screen now.

Page 5182

1 Sorry, what were you saying, Madam Vidovic?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was saying that

3 there seem to have been problems in interpretation both ways. If you'll

4 allow me, I will try to clarify this with the witness.

5 Q. Witness, do you agree with me that the B/C/S term "rasciscavanje"

6 means to clarify a matter, to take measures in order to clear the matter

7 up, to sort it out, to, in fact, solve a problem?

8 A. Yes, precisely.

9 Q. Where it says to sort the matters out with a given unit, this

10 means to either put it in the right order or to disband it. Would you

11 agree with me?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: To disband what? To disband the problem? That

14 phrase, to disband it, doesn't -- I don't understand what it means now.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was saying to disband

16 a unit but it wasn't interpreted. This is what I'm talking about.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said to disband it. Did you ...

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, to disband a unit. That's what

19 I was referring to.

20 Q. Is that right, Witness?

21 A. In the security services, this term implied also to gather

22 information, to clarify matters and to take measures to neutralize

23 unlawful activities in various ways through criminal Prosecution,

24 disciplinary measures and so on and so forth.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 5183

1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry but I really

2 must ask the interpreters one thing. I don't want to philosophize here or

3 to just have a loose interpretation of words. I would like to know what

4 that word means. One word what does it mean. I would like to know what

5 is the translation of one word not by a sentence. I would just like to

6 know what that word means.

7 Thank you.

8 Maybe the interpreters did not understand which word. For me it's

9 a bit difficult for me to read it out. It is "rasciscavanje." I believe

10 that that is the word that Madam Vidovic is referring to. I'm only

11 talking about that one word.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The practice for the interpreters to refer Their

13 Honours to the official translation from the relevant service, the CLSS.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I hope

15 that the English booth gave the same translation.

16 Thank you.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Clear up, to clarify. It may also mean to sort

18 out.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, proceed.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Witness, you worked in security services, and you just mentioned

22 operations approved by General Delic. You mentioned operation Trebevic

23 and you said there were four or five operations code-named Trebevic?

24 A. I think there was six.

25 Q. Six, okay. Do you recall, to the best of your knowledge, that

Page 5184

1 Trebevic-3 concerned the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps?

2 A. Yes, I do recall.

3 Q. Trebevic-4 concerned the municipalities of Travnik, Visiko and

4 Zenica. Can you recall that?

5 A. Yes. I believe that this was so.

6 Q. Finally, you said that in May 1995, General Delic approved the

7 operative action known as Vranduk?

8 A. This was a code-name for that, Operation Vranduk.

9 Q. Fine. You discussed that in your statement in paragraph 59 and

10 I'm not going to ask you extensively about that.

11 But I would like you to be shown another document, Exhibit --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Exhibit 662. This is

13 an exhibit under seal, so whether -- therefore I'd like to seek that we

14 sit in private session.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5185

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So we can put this document away.

25 And could we show the witness Exhibit 669, please.

Page 5186

1 Q. You commented on your -- on this document in paragraph 57 of your

2 statement. And today you asked [as interpreted] Prosecution questions,

3 you may remember that you made circles around your handwriting on this

4 document. Can you recall that?

5 A. Yes, I can recall that.

6 Q. And you replied that this annotation bulletin was crossed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This simply means that this information was not included in the

9 bulletin. Is that so?

10 A. This is clearly visible here.

11 Q. Right. Below that, what is written is code-name Vranduk. I would

12 like to ask you about a principle when it comes to operative activities

13 and investigations and delivery of information on such activities.

14 Please, do you agree with me that Vranduk was an activity which

15 entailed criminal investigations, among other things?

16 A. Of course. This is perfectly clear.

17 Q. Very well. Please, do you agree that when it came to

18 investigative activities, then state organs are duty-bound to be mindful

19 of protection of such information. Is that so?

20 A. This is what I already stated.

21 Q. This means, please, that regardless of who -- of who is the

22 recipient, when operative investigations and criminal investigations are

23 concerned, such information would not be included in bulletins. These are

24 protected information for the purposes of investigations. Am I correct in

25 saying so?

Page 5187

1 A. Yes, you are correct.

2 Q. And this was the real reason why it was decided that this

3 information should not end up in the bulletin and this is why the word

4 bulletin was stricken through?

5 A. Yes, this was so, because of possible leak of such information.

6 Q. So this would not concern only this information, but any other

7 information that would jeopardise operative activities or, in other words,

8 investigations, such information would not end up in special information

9 reports or bulletins. Am I right?

10 A. Yes, this is perfectly evident.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we put this

13 document away.

14 At this point I would like the witness to see P2871.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: 871, not 781.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours. I

17 thank you. 2871.

18 Q. This is a document dated 30th of December, 1995, another document

19 of the Military Security Service administration addressed to the General

20 Staff command post of Kakanj and in this specific instance it was

21 addressed to Captain Enver Berberic. We saw a similar situation where

22 this document was addressed to Sacir Arnautovic.

23 Can you remember that?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. So any situation when the document is sent to Kakanj, you no

Page 5188

1 longer know of its fate, whether it gets delivered to General Delic or

2 somebody who stands in for him if he is absent?

3 A. My duty is performed when I receive from the communications centre

4 that the document had been sent, and after that I really don't care.

5 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you concerning paragraph 49 of

6 your statement.

7 The Prosecutor asked you whether a member of the El Mujahedin

8 Detachment was target of criminal prosecution. You answered that you did

9 not know. Now, Your Honours, I would like to see this document be put

10 away and to -- witness be shown document PT1686.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't want this document admitted, ma'am? Or

12 is it?

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are the

15 documents either shown to the witness by the Prosecutor or which are part

16 of the binder which are going to be admitted. I'm referring to them as

17 under P numbers because I don't know at this point what exhibit numbers

18 they are going to be given.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, and that's why I asked once you referred to

20 it under a number P and -- because I also don't know, I assume it's a new

21 document which needs to be given an Exhibit number. And I don't want your

22 exhibits to slip through the fingers and not be admitted, Madam Vidovic.

23 So I am doing this out of an abundance of caution to make sure that

24 documents referred to are tendered if they are intended to be tendered.

25 Thank you very much. Exhibit 757, I am told.

Page 5189

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That's 757.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 You may proceed.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Can the witness be shown document 1686, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I suggest that if it comes from the binder, do

7 say so, then we know it is already admitted.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document is Exhibit 716.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. But if Madam Vidovic

10 says it comes from the binder, then we know it's admitted and you don't

11 have to tell us.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This goes -- bulletin number 24,

13 dated 31st of January, 1994. Can page 2 of the document be shown to the

14 witness, please.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, please focus on paragraph 2 which starts with the phrase:

18 "At the same time."

19 And can we scroll the English version down so it can be seen.

20 It reads: "At the same time, a joint security service centre

21 Zenica and Military Security Service during their work in realising

22 operational plan of measures and activities in finding the organisers and

23 executors of the killing and wounding of UNHCR members, it found that a

24 vehicle of make Golf with three arrested foreign citizens from Arab

25 countries and we informed in the previous bulletin about their arrest,

Page 5190

1 they were on the day in question at the scene where the killing and

2 wounding of UNHCR members occurred." Later on in the document it is

3 mentioned that there are suspicions that some of them may be members of

4 the El Mujahedin Detachment.

5 In connection with this I would like to ask you this: Reading

6 this bulletin one could conclude there was an investigation conducted on

7 the murder of foreigners committed by foreign citizens, can be -- can it

8 be concluded -- can we go to the second -- to the next page in the Bosnian

9 version. Or may be committed by El Mujahedin Detachment members?

10 A. I do believe that this investigation was operation team.

11 Q. It seems that this was being reported on in this bulletin and in

12 the preceding one, judging from what is written here.

13 In other words, you agree that investigations were conducted and

14 criminal reports were being submitted against such members of El Mujahedin

15 or can you correct your previously statement?

16 A. I cannot recall the detachments. I don't know which detachment

17 those members belonged to; maybe it is written somewhere in the text. If

18 I were to read the text maybe my memory would be jogged.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. You may read the first paragraph. Take a

20 look at it, please.

21 A. It says that most probably these were El Mujahedin detachment

22 members.

23 Q. So you would agree that criminal investigation and criminal --

24 were initiated and criminal reports were submitted against them?

25 A. Of course, yes.

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1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I'm about to

3 embark on a sizeable document maybe this would be the right time for me to

4 finish for the day.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic, we'll take a break and

6 actually adjourn to tomorrow at 2.15 in the afternoon. Same courtroom,

7 II.

8 Court adjourned.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of

11 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.