Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5476

1 Wednesday, 14 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in court.

6 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. This

8 is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 May we please have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around

13 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon for the Prosecution,

14 assisted by our case managers, Alma Imamovic and Fraser McIlwraith.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 And for the Defence.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

18 afternoon to my colleagues from the OTP, to everybody in and around the

19 courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas Robson, with our legal

20 assistant Lejla Gluhic.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

22 Yes, I see the witness is not in court.

23 Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 The Prosecution has a number of hopefully brief submissions

Page 5477

1 concerning upcoming witnesses, and we would ask to address the Trial

2 Chamber in private session concerning these witnesses.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

4 [Private session]

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Page 5478











11 Pages 5478-5485 redacted. Private session















Page 5486

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 You may call the witness.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Buljubasic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yesterday, before you started your testimony, you

13 made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else

14 but the truth. I just remind you that you are still bound by that

15 declaration. Okay?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Madam Vidovic.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic [Continued]

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Buljubasic. Yesterday --

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Yesterday, we talked about the duties of your Cabinet, and I would

25 like to continue with that topic.

Page 5487

1 You would agree with me, would you not, that in 1995, the

2 international community made substantial efforts to stop the war in Bosnia

3 and Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. General Delic was a negotiator on behalf of the Army of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina; is that correct?

7 A. For the most part, yes.

8 Q. Very frequently, these were long-term negotiations within Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina and outside; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During 1995, after the signing of the Washington Agreement between

12 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were frequent negotiations about

13 many questions with the Croats in Croatia?

14 A. Yes, but in 1995 negotiations and agreements were still being

15 conducted with the HVO of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I personally attended

16 talks attended also by the commander in Kresevo and Jablanica.

17 Q. You would agree with me that those negotiations occupied a large

18 measure of General Delic's time and attention; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And peace depended on the outcome of those negotiations, lasting

21 peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that right?

22 A. Probably, because those negotiations led to the Dayton and later

23 the Paris Agreement and the cessation of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Q. There were also various international conferences in 1995, peace

25 conferences as well as donor conferences; is this correct?

Page 5488

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is correct is that General Delic was more involved in all of

3 these matters rather than combat actions; would you accept that?

4 A. It's correct that the general dealt with all these matters, but I

5 cannot say -- and I say again I don't have an overview or any record of

6 where he went and how much time he spent in these places in order to give

7 you a proper answer. But everything you have said so far is correct, that

8 General Delic was quite engaged and that this required a lot of time for

9 the talks, the travels.

10 Q. Thank you. You said that it was a task of Mr. Delic's Cabinet

11 also to correspond with units to appoint, and you said this does not

12 include communications about combat actions. Here I refer to paragraph

13 7.3 of your statement, and I would like to ask you this in relation to

14 that: The communications between the general's cabinet and you, as the

15 Chef de Cabinet, were limited as regards this type of matter, about what

16 the Staff and the administration's relocation to Kakanj in connection with

17 combat activities?

18 A. Yes, that is correct, because an operations centre was formed in

19 Kakanj which directly communicated with units and received combat reports

20 from the units.

21 Q. Thank you. I'm going to put some questions to you now about

22 documents shown to you by the Prosecutor.

23 Could the witness now look at document PT2477, please. And you

24 commented already on this document. The witness did that in paragraph 38

25 of the statement.

Page 5489

1 For the transcript, before we see the document, we're talking

2 about a BBC report from the 4th of September, 1995.

3 Witness, can you please look at the Bosnian version of the

4 document. You will probably recall this document. It refers to the fact

5 that General Delic was a member of the delegation that visited the Islamic

6 Republic of Iran, and according to this document the visit took place from

7 the 28th until the 31st of August. You said that you remember that the

8 general was away at that time; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes. I know that the general went on this visit. I saw this

10 document in English. I did not see it in Bosnian before. That's the

11 first time that I'm seeing it now in Bosnian. It's true that the general

12 went to visit Iran, and now from the document I see that this was from the

13 28th to the 31st of August. Of course, I couldn't recall and I do not

14 remember the date. I mean, it was a long time ago. But I do know that he

15 was with the delegation that travelled, and I know that this document, in

16 English, was shown to me before.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you very much.

18 Your Honours, we can put this document away now. Actually,

19 perhaps the document can be given an exhibit number, because ...

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 818.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ascertain whether it's PT2447 or P2477,

25 because I think you said one thing on the transcript -- on the microphone

Page 5490

1 and I see another document appearing on your exhibit list.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2477.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, is that on your list that you have

5 exhibited -- that you have distributed?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document that

7 was shown to the witness by the Prosecutor, and the witness comments on it

8 in paragraph 38 of his statement.

9 MR. MENON: Your Honour, if I could clarify --

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Your Honours, excuse

11 me.

12 The mistake is here with us. We made a mistake on the list. The

13 list says "2447". We have the mistake on our list, but it's actually

14 2477. That's the correct number. I apologise. I didn't notice that.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: The mystery is solved.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

19 The document has been given an exhibit number, 818.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] About this document, can the witness

21 please be shown D669.

22 For the record, this is an order of the General Staff of the BH

23 Army, and the date is the 28th of August, 1995.

24 Q. Witness, in your statement you made a number of references to the

25 commander being represented by General Hajrulahovic. I want you to look

Page 5491

1 at the date, the 28th, the document produced by the General Staff of the

2 Army, dated the 28th of August, 1995, the same date that we saw in that

3 article or paragraph.

4 Were you speaking about Brigadier General Mustafa Hajrulahovic who

5 was representing the general in Sarajevo, standing in for him during his

6 absence?

7 A. Yes. In my statement, I said that there was an organisational

8 order by the army from October 1994, and pursuant to this order the Chief

9 of Staff, the army's Chief of Staff, would also stand in for the commander

10 in terms of his role and function. However, whenever the commander left

11 Sarajevo, there were still commitments remaining in Sarajevo, and one of

12 the administration heads would normally stand in for the commander. Most

13 frequently, this was General Hajrulahovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,

16 please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 819.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In your statement, you mentioned the fact that General Delic, in

23 September 1995, was away in Malaysia?

24 A. Quite correct.

25 Q. In paragraph 36 of your statement, you state that you believe that

Page 5492

1 Delic had appointed someone to stand in for him during his absence. Based

2 on that, the command-and-control system was fully operational. This was

3 your comment on the video clip that you were shown by the OTP. You recall

4 that, Witness, don't you?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Very well. Unfortunately, I don't have sufficient time to show

7 you the clip again, but I do want you to look at Exhibit 621 instead.

8 This is part of a set. The date is September 1995.

9 Right now, I want you to look at page 1 of this document.

10 First of all, this was produced by the Army's General Staff;

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the date is the 5th of September, 1995, is it not?

14 A. Yes, indeed it is. It was produced in Kakanj.

15 Q. I just want you to look at this [indicates], the signature

16 representing the commander and Enver Hadzihasanovic. Do you recognise the

17 signature?

18 A. No, no. I mean, I see where it says: "Representing the

19 commander," but I can't see what else it says, and I don't recognize the

20 signature.

21 Q. Be that as it may, on the 9th -- on the 5th of September, it is

22 quite obvious that --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, interpretation will proceed

24 when the speakers stop overlapping. Thank you.

25 A. You're actually asking me General Hadzihasanovic was representing

Page 5493

1 General Delic on that day. Yes, that is quite obvious, if you look at the

2 document.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, thank you. And now could you please

5 go to the last page of this document. The same applies to both the

6 English and the B/C/S.

7 You agree that this document was also produced by the Army's

8 General Staff, that it was produced in Kakanj on the 16th of September,

9 wasn't it?

10 If we could please pull up the Bosnian so that we can see the

11 signature.

12 This document shows, does it not, that on the 16th of September,

13 General Hadzihasanovic was representing the commander?

14 A. Yes, indeed, but could we just pull the document up a little so

15 that I can see the actual signature?

16 Q. Unfortunately, that's what the copy's like, that's what we were

17 given. All right.

18 A. Yes, it reads: "Representing the commander" or standing in for

19 the commander, Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

20 Q. Thank you very much. You will agree, won't you, that these

21 documents show that General Rasim Delic was being represented by the Chief

22 of Staff for a time period in September 1995; right?

23 A. Yes. I did say that in my statement, didn't I? And if you look

24 at the organisational order by the army, you can see that as well. In

25 terms of his function and role and responsibility, the Chief of Staff of

Page 5494

1 the Army must stand in for the commander.

2 Is it always necessary to draw up a special order whenever the

3 commander is away on who exactly stands in for him? Well, this wasn't

4 something that was regulated. Sometimes an order was drafted on who would

5 be standing in, and sometimes it was made explicit in terms of each

6 person's responsibilities. So sometimes when the commander was away, it

7 was quite obvious that he would be represented by the Chief of Staff.

8 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation, Witness.

9 And now I want to ask you several other questions.

10 Your Honours, this document can now be put away. It has an

11 exhibit number already.

12 And what I wish to ask you now is a number of questions about the

13 situation throughout 1995, about the priorities faced by General Delic

14 throughout that year.

15 Do you agree that in Sarajevo itself, and you were working there,

16 too, throughout 1995, weren't you, the situation was very difficult?

17 A. I definitely agree.

18 Q. The siege continued throughout 1995 and until it became unbearable

19 for all those residing in Sarajevo; is that not a fact?

20 A. Yes, that's true. That's when the Markale incident happened as

21 well, the Markale incident.

22 Q. You say that's when the Markale incident occurred as well. This

23 was an incident where a single shell killed about 100 people; am I right?

24 ?

25 A. Yes, plus over 100 injured.

Page 5495

1 Q. Civilians were being killed on a massive scale on the streets of

2 Sarajevo, targeted by the Serb artillery, who were besieging the city;

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. They were trying to wear down the town's defences, and that's why

6 the general launched an operation to try to lift the siege of Sarajevo; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. General Delic was busy planning this operation of which he was in

10 command; right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. At the same time, and we're looking at July 1995, are we not --

13 right?

14 A. Yes, late June and early July, the first half of July 1995, right.

15 Q. My apologies. At the same time, the pressure on the enclaves of

16 Sarajevo, Zepa and Gorazde was truly horrifying, was it not?

17 A. Indeed.

18 Q. All those living in the non-Serb enclaves were facing massacres,

19 the possibility of being massacred; right?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Eventually, in July 1995 the Srebrenica tragedy occurred, and it

22 was soon followed by the Zepa tragedy; is that not right?

23 A. It certainly is right.

24 Q. Do you agree that this tragedy took up much of the General Staff's

25 attention and focus, including General Delic personally, and all they were

Page 5496

1 thinking about was how to avoid future tragedies of that kind?

2 A. Yes, that is quite true. There was a lot of domestic pressure

3 across Bosnia because of the tragedy, because of what had occurred in

4 Srebrenica, from the 11th of July onwards.

5 Q. Do you agree with me that throughout July 1995, those were the

6 priorities that General Delic had to come to grips with?

7 A. Yes, especially after Srebrenica, in the second half July,

8 including the best part of August. There was the accommodation problem

9 and everything that the Srebrenica tragedy caused. All those civilians

10 had to be put up somewhere, all those civilians who had left Srebrenica en

11 masse.

12 Q. But you do agree that the fighting continued throughout July and

13 August, leaving thousands of people trying to leave the Srebrenica area;

14 they were being pushed and thousands of them were still being killed, in

15 fact, were they not?

16 A. Yes, from the 11th onwards Srebrenica, and just after Srebrenica,

17 some of Zepa's citizens as well.

18 Q. Mr. Buljubasic, now that we're talking about Srebrenica, about the

19 Srebrenica area, the tragedy also enveloped the following places:

20 Srebrenica, Cerska, Kamena [as interpreted] and Konjevic Polje; is that

21 true, sir?

22 A. I'm not quite sure. I think the Srebrenica tragedy affected

23 Srebrenica alone. As for Cerska, Kamen [as interpreted] and Konjevic

24 Polje, most of those had fallen previously into the hands of the Republika

25 Srpska Army. Srebrenica and the part that had remained back in 1993, after

Page 5497

1 the Srebrenica area had been demilitarised, Cerska, Konjevic Polje and all

2 that area had been taken before, at least as far as I can remember.

3 Q. Yes, but you're not quite certain, are you? You weren't there,

4 were you?

5 A. I wasn't there. I'm not positive, but as far as I can remember,

6 Srebrenica was reduced to the status of an enclave in 1993, was separated

7 from Zepa. In the meantime, all communication between the two had ceased

8 simply because Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje had fallen. The

9 continuity of the fighting occurred in Gorazde, and I lost part of the

10 territory around Visegrad.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, Your Honours,

12 page 22, line 5, we're talking about Kamenica. Line 4, actually. Page

13 22, line 4, "Kamenica." Right?


15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Srebrenica, yes, but we're

16 talking about Cerska, and it says "Kamen" instead of "Kamenica," and I

17 really want that word on the record.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, fine, fine.

20 Thank you for all these answers, and now I'll move on to some

21 other questions about paragraph 15 and 16 of your statement, in which you

22 speak about the communications system.

23 Q. You say that most of the phone lines to Sarajevo had been cut?

24 A. That's true. That was at the very outset, because the main -- the

25 principal post office building in Sarajevo had burned down.

Page 5498

1 Q. You say that a satellite telephone line was being used; right?

2 A. Yes. That was at Vranica, is the same building where the Cabinet

3 was. There was a satellite line in my statement [as interpreted]. I

4 point out that this was a stationary satellite telephone such is normally

5 used on ships. The size was enormous. It had to be placed somewhere and

6 left there. It was a stationary telephone device. It wasn't a mobile

7 device. Once you put it somewhere, it had to stay right there. It also

8 had a special sort of parabolic antenna which had to be adjusted at a

9 certain angle to meet the satellite in order to establish a line of

10 communication.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Buljubasic, I have so many questions,

12 please try to keep your answers to a clear-cut yes or no wherever you can.

13 Anyway, thank you very much for this exhaustive explanation.

14 There's something else I want to ask you about this telephone.

15 It's true, isn't it, that communication over this telephone could only be

16 intercepted by electronic devices; right?

17 A. Yes, that's true.

18 Q. Military Security Service warned the General Staff about the fact

19 that satellite telephone lines were being listened to and intercepted;

20 right?

21 A. Yes, that's right. I knew about that.

22 Q. You will agree with me, then, won't you, that this sort of

23 communication could not be used for conveying confidential information?

24 It wasn't appropriate for that, was it?

25 A. This line was not used for command purposes. This line was used

Page 5499

1 to maintain communications with certain other areas of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina who were able to use this sort of communication, who had

3 appropriate equipment for this purpose.

4 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 19 of your statement, you spoke about

5 packet communications; right?

6 A. Yes. Some people called it "packet communications." Some people

7 called it "paktor [phoen] communications," so those were the expressions I

8 used.

9 Q. Fine. Do you agree that there had to be a certain infrastructure

10 in place for this type of communication to proceed?

11 A. Yes. The bear minimum required for this type of communication was

12 a coding and decoding device, a keyboard, a monitor, a computer actually,

13 and a KT device that could be used to transmit the signal once the

14 processing had been dealt with.

15 Q. All right. Maintaining this communication was some sort of a user

16 at the command centre and someone who had appropriate equipment for this

17 kind of communication; right?

18 A. Yes. There had to be at least one operator present at any time

19 for this type of communication to proceed.

20 Q. Thank you. You say that you sent dispatches to the commander via

21 Kakanj whenever he was away from Sarajevo. You don't actually know for

22 sure whether, at the Kakanj command post, they always had appropriate

23 information as to the commander's whereabouts? They didn't always know

24 whether any such information had reached the commander or not, did they?

25 A. That's quite right, but that wasn't the case very often.

Page 5500

1 Sometimes whoever deputised for the commander in Sarajevo was perhaps

2 unable to deal with something, and then he would say, "Okay, try to get in

3 touch with the commander". This was not the case very often. As for the

4 fate of those documents that were dispatched to Kakanj, I don't know what

5 became of them because I was not physically able to actually see them

6 through, was I?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Can the witness now please look at D667.

9 This is a document produced by the commander's cabinet. The date

10 is the 14th of February, 1994, and this is about forwarding a document.

11 Q. I know that you are not the person who produced this document,

12 rather it was your predecessor, but I do wish to discuss the principle

13 behind this with you.

14 How was mail forwarded from the Cabinet to Kakanj? Look at the

15 introduction, please, and tell me if you agree with this. The document

16 actually says that the Chef de Cabinet, Murat Softic, is forwarding this

17 order to the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command so that he can

18 familiarise himself with it, and then once it is signed, it should be

19 passed along. Isn't that what it says? And what I mean to ask you really

20 is, this is exactly the way you continued to work whenever you were the

21 one sending dispatches; right? That is something that you shared with us

22 a while ago, was it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just below this, below the signature, you see what the substance

25 is of a given document being forwarded. Now please look at the last page

Page 5501

1 of this document. This is a document being submitted to the commander for

2 signature. Can you please look at the last page now. And what I actually

3 mean to ask you is this: This document here is not actually signed by the

4 commander, it's signed by Hadzihasanovic on his behalf; yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. And now the facts, and that is what I have been

7 meaning to ask you about, and this is something we discussed a while ago,

8 the fact that a document is being forwarded to the commander so that he

9 can familiarise himself with it in Kakanj. This, in itself, doesn't mean

10 that the commander actually ever set eyes on the document, ever received

11 it, ever signed it. At any rate, this would be done on his behalf by

12 whoever was standing in for him at the time whenever he was away; right?

13 A. Yes, in terms of the person's function, but this was probably

14 something that just couldn't wait, so whoever was in charge, whoever was

15 on duty, would sign it off.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 Your Honours, may the document please be given a number.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 820.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Could this one be put

23 away, please, and I would like the witness to look at E727, Exhibit 727.

24 Q. Witness, yesterday, when you started testifying, we talked about

25 this document -- rather, when I started cross-examining you. And you said

Page 5502

1 that you would obtain from the Military Security Service sealed envelopes;

2 is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You made a sketch of one such envelope, and you said, "This is a

5 rough sketch, no more than that." In actual fact, you don't really know

6 what sort of documents those envelopes contained, do you? Were these

7 bulletins, was this some sort of special information being passed along,

8 was this just an ordinary letter or something else; you don't really know

9 that, do you?

10 A. Yes, because I never opened those, I never opened any of those

11 envelopes. It always said "To be opened by the commander, himself." There

12 were all those parcels and envelopes being sent to the commander. It

13 always read "To be opened by the commander alone." Therefore, I never

14 opened those, did I? I never opened them, I didn't know what was inside.

15 Q. Thank you very much. And now do you agree that you would forward

16 such envelopes to the commander whenever he was there, perhaps his

17 secretary, actually? That would be a fair thing to say. That's who you

18 forwarded these envelopes to, because the general actually had two

19 secretaries, didn't he?

20 A. Yes, it was at the post office. That was where I delivered all

21 the other mail. If the command was there, I would do it then and there.

22 If he was away or he had other commitments and this had to wait, then I

23 would normally leave this with one of the secretaries and they would then

24 forward this to the commander himself.

25 Q. That would be Ms. Lemes; right? I think you mentioned her, didn't

Page 5503

1 you?

2 A. Yes, and whenever she was away, there was young Haris Kristianovic

3 [phoen].

4 Q. All right. What if the general was away from Sarajevo? Do you

5 agree with me that the mail wasn't just waiting for him; the secretary

6 would most probably have forwarded these documents to whoever was

7 deputising for the commander? Would you accept that?

8 A. I really don't know. I don't know what became of the mail. I

9 don't know whether it was given to whoever was deputising or was being

10 forwarded to wherever the commander happened to be. I just handed it over

11 and I didn't really follow this through. It never really came back to

12 me. Such documents that were sent on their way were never returned to

13 me. Therefore, I really don't know.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Can you help me with this: If it was

15 returned and when it was returned, how exactly did it get back to you?

16 Through the secretary; right?

17 A. I only know that the envelopes always read "To be opened by the

18 commander alone." I would give it to the commander and then the commander

19 would see what it was, he would familiarise himself with whatever the

20 contents were of those envelopes. That was for him to do. He would send

21 it back, and he would indicate who the recipient was. As for that type of

22 mail, I know that it was always forwarded back to whoever the recipient

23 was that was indicated on the envelope itself.

24 As for any mail sent through the secretary, I really don't know

25 how it was returned or who it was returned to.

Page 5504

1 Q. Thank you very much. All right. Be that as it may, you hand over

2 a sealed envelope to one of the secretaries. The general is away, so you

3 have no idea where it goes next or whether it returns?

4 A. No, I don't know. I don't know how it got to be there in the

5 first place, I don't know who it was returned by. I simply don't know.

6 Q. All right. Let me ask you about paragraph 20 of your statement.

7 The OTP showed you document 2028. It's actually P2028.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you calling that --

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this one away, please?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you calling 2028 or are you just telling him

11 that he saw it?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am calling it up. There are

13 certain things indicated on that document, and I would like the witness to

14 have a look.

15 Q. You made certain comments in relation to this document in your

16 statement. I'm sure you remember. I want you to have another look.

17 I would like the witness to be able to see the beginning of page

18 1. Could we just pull it up slightly, please, so we can actually see the

19 top of the page.

20 Witness, you agree that there is no indication whatsoever that

21 this document was encrypted, is there, above the body of the document, the

22 text, the top of the page?

23 A. That's right. There's some sort of an illegible signature at the

24 top of this document, but I don't see the sort of thing that normally was

25 indicated on whichever documents were encrypted.

Page 5505

1 Q. Thank you. Now let's look at the entire page, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you said the Prosecution showed the

3 witness this document. Is it already an exhibit or not? I don't see it

4 on the list of documents shown by the Prosecution.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness commented

6 this document in the statement. I don't know what the status is now, but

7 perhaps I would like to hear what the witness has to say about it first.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, we can see that there are no

10 other indications on this page. Now we can look at the last or the second

11 page of the document. In English, it's the third page, Your Honours. Can

12 we please look at that?

13 Q. Mr. Buljubasic, do you agree that the document is not signed and

14 it's not stamped?

15 A. It's clear from the document that it's not stamped and signed.

16 Q. And do you agree that it could be a draft version that was not

17 actually -- that had not actually seen the light of day?

18 A. I cannot see any indications that this document was actually sent

19 out by paktor communication, and I cannot tell if it was received, because

20 there is no indication if it was received by anyone, because if it was

21 received, perhaps then it would have some logic that it wasn't signed.

22 But since there is no receipt stamp either, then ...

23 Q. Thank you. In any case, you personally never saw this document

24 before; is that right?

25 A. Not before the time that I gave my statement, when it was shown to

Page 5506

1 me for the first time.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this

3 document away now, and I would like the witness to look at another

4 document now.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're putting it away because there's no basis for

6 it to be tendered or ...

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am not tendering it, Your Honour.

8 This is a document that the witness in the statement -- I am not tendering

9 it.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please look at

12 document P2188 [Realtime transcript read in error "P2098"] now, please. I

13 will repeat the number. It's 2188, 2188. It's the right document now.

14 Q. You commented this document in a paragraph of your statement.

15 This is a document of the 28th of June, 1995. I would like you to look at

16 page 1 of this document, please. This is an information about the

17 importance of continuing the liberation operation. It's an act by the 3rd

18 Corps. It's quite faint here, but you can see that it is the 3rd Corps

19 Command here.

20 Now, Mr. Buljubasic, would you agree -- can we please scroll down

21 so that we can see the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and in the English

22 version. Actually, in English, it should be on the following page.

23 What I would like to suggest to you and to ask you is that: It is

24 evident that the Deputy Commander for Morale, Husic, is forwarding this

25 document, report on the significance of continuing liberation activities,

Page 5507

1 is passing it further along; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, can you see that there is a line between that, meaning that

4 the act is copied below this line? You've seen that, haven't you?

5 A. The beginning of the act is again.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, all right. Can we look

7 at the last page of the document now.

8 Q. All right. Please, can you see that this is Army General Rasim

9 Delic who signed the document, and then it says that the transcript is

10 authenticated by the Assistant Commander for Morale of the 7th Brigade and

11 the name is there. I would, first of all, like to ask you this: Can you

12 please look at these initials here on the left? We can all see that the

13 document is not signed. Can you look at the initials now? Are these the

14 initials of anyone from your Cabinet?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. So the transcript is authenticated. Did you ever see,

17 anywhere on the document, that the document was sent to the encryption

18 section? Does it say that anywhere?

19 A. At the beginning of the document, there are some shaded parts, so

20 I don't know what's on the accompanying document.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go back to the

22 cover page or the first page so that the witness can look at it again.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see, above the number, it's

24 either a bad copy or something, but you cannot see the code of the person

25 who dispatched it or the code of the person who received the act. And,

Page 5508

1 secondly, when you compare the first act and the second act, there is

2 something illogical there. If it was the Assistant Commander for Morale

3 of the 3rd Corps, then it's strange that the authentication is carried out

4 by the commander of a brigade.

5 In this other act, which is not signed by General Delic, it's

6 signed by the Assistant Commander of the Brigade for Morale, this is

7 something that is illogical.

8 Q. Well, that's the reason why I asked you that. Please, we've seen

9 the general's name, and do you agree that in acts we saw that it's not

10 signed, and even if this document was encrypted, we wouldn't see it until

11 we -- who signed it until we saw the original act?

12 A. Yes, the encryption section does not convey the signature. Yes,

13 you are right.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, between you and the witness, just so

15 that I'm not left behind, what do you mean by an act in this context?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Document, Your Honour, which is not

17 an order, so it's a document. It's an order or a report.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you talk of an act below and above, a line

19 between, I see one document here, except that at the last page there was a

20 line drawn somewhere and then there were some writings below. I'm not

21 quite sure which is the one act and which is the other act. I'm sorry,

22 I'm asking this question long after the word "act" has been used, so that

23 perhaps may not be very clear. But we can go to the last page and I can

24 show you what I mean.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understand what

Page 5509

1 the dilemma is, because it was the same for me in the beginning.

2 Please, can we scroll down this first page a little bit, and then

3 we'll go to the next page, so that we can see the bottom of this text.

4 Q. Okay. Witness, please, do you agree that here this author,

5 Assistant Commander for Morale, is allegedly sending a copied document of

6 the Army General Staff further on to the units that are mentioned here?

7 A. I didn't understand. Are you asking me?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Well, you can see from the act that the Assistant Commander for

10 Morale, Husic, is sending this document or this act to the units that are

11 enumerated here. You can see that on the first page.

12 Q. Now we see one line that separates that completely from the second

13 document, which was drafted on the 28th of June, 1995; do you agree?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. And now can we look --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was also drafted on the 28th of June, 1995. It

17 may be at a different time. This one is -- you're talking now about the

18 thing that is done at 9.45? Okay. And that line --

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That line divides the two acts?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And based on my understanding of the

24 two documents, the draftee of the first document decided himself to whom

25 he would send the transcripts of this document.

Page 5510

1 Q. Would you accept that?

2 A. That's what it says on the act itself. "Dispatched to" means that

3 it was dispatched to -- each act that has the following words: Dispatched

4 to, and then lists the recipients, means that that document should be

5 delivered to those units that are mentioned there.

6 Q. So my question is this: The author of this second document below

7 the line did not decide who the document will be sent to, this document by

8 the Assistant Commander for Morale; we you don't have anything like that

9 stated in this lower document?

10 A. Yes, but again I'm coming back to this illogical matter. It's not

11 logical, below the line, where it says: "The Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina, General Staff" and the number, it's not logical that the

13 authentication of an act by the General Staff is done by a person who's on

14 the other side, who's from the brigade. This is what is a discrepancy

15 here. It's not possible for a morale commander in one of the brigades to

16 be verifying the accuracy of an act that originated from the General

17 Staff.

18 Q. All right. Just one more question in relation to this act.

19 Please, do you agree that you have never seen this act before, as

20 the Chef de Cabinet of General Delic?

21 A. No, no, because there is nothing here indicating an archive

22 number, place of origin, so it was not drafted in the Cabinet and it did

23 not pass through the Cabinet.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Your Honours, can this document be put away now, please.

Page 5511

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before that, how do we know that there are two

2 separate acts here and authored by two different people?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

4 Q. Witness, can you please read the first sentence here that we can

5 see on the screen? "Please find attached," is that what you mean?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please, so that we

8 can look at the first page in the English, so that Their Honours can

9 follow.

10 So can we show the first page of the English version of this

11 document on the screen.

12 Q. Go ahead, Witness.

13 A. "Please find enclosed the report of the Army of the Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina General Staff regarding the importance of continuing

15 liberation operations."

16 Q. Yes, there. In other words, enclosed with this act that is signed

17 by this Husic, because this lower act or document is below the line -- is

18 that correct, that is that information, that is something that you can

19 tell by the title?

20 A. Yes, that is correct. The usual practice is if lower-ranking

21 units are being sent information from higher-ranking units or commands,

22 then there would be an accompanying or a cover letter that accompanies

23 that act. Since these are two acts that we're talking about, the one on

24 the first page signed by Captain First Class Husic should represent this

25 accompanying act relating to this information that was supposed to be sent

Page 5512

1 out. However, I, as a soldier, have some doubts about the accuracy of

2 this act that goes with this accompanying act and it being signed by an

3 Assistant for Morale from one of the brigades, whereas it says that the

4 act was drafted in the General Staff.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

6 Your Honours, I think this would be a good time, if you don't have

7 any questions.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, I'll put the question later

9 on, because I'm very sorry, I still entertain some doubts. There are

10 still some very dark areas about these documents.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was probably going to do the same after the

12 break.

13 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I still have a problem with this

18 document, the entire document.

19 If I understood properly, there is a document that was sent by

20 Husic, together with an attachment or annex. Did I understand properly,

21 Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This document from Mr. Husic

23 is a cover document, because he's enclosing this other document that is

24 partially below the line and partially on the second page.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] At the end of the entire

Page 5513

1 document, we have Husic's letter, together with the attachment, and there

2 is a certification of the authenticity of the entire document; is that

3 right?

4 Can we see the last page, please. Can we scroll down to get to

5 the last page.

6 This is what I wanted to know: Who's signature is it? Is it

7 possible to know? Who signed this certification?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of the act, it says that

9 the authenticity is verified by the Assistant of the Commander for Morale,

10 Captain First Class Sulejman Kurtanovic [phoen], if I'm seeing this

11 correctly. This is what I see underneath the signature.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

13 interrupting, but evidently this is a misinterpretation into English, and

14 I can see what the confusion is.

15 It says that the transcript is authenticated by, and the

16 interpreter is interpreting it that the transcript is authentic, and these

17 are two completely different things in our language. Perhaps we can

18 clarify that with the witness.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I understood that

20 this authentication meant that the copy was a certified copy of the

21 original. Is that so?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, the person that

23 authenticates the transcript asserts that it is true to the original, but

24 this is not something that I am disputing. What is being disputed is the

25 procedure and the way in which these acts are being forwarded.

Page 5514

1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is what I was trying to

2 understand, this confirmation of the authenticity applies to the entire

3 document, does it, so the letter by Husic together with the attachment or

4 annex? It does not apply only to the document signed by General Rasim

5 Delic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I actually understand it to be the

7 opposite. The authenticity of the transcript refers only to this

8 document, because Husic above writes his own separate act. The procedure

9 is disputable here.

10 If a unit, such as the Corps Command here, received this act --

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood that, because

12 you've said this already twice, and still I have some problems with it.

13 If this was an authentication regarding the entire document,

14 therefore authentication that would apply to the thing that was sent by

15 Husic, this process, this authentication process, would it be the proper

16 one or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This authentication is incorrect.

18 The authenticity of the document cannot be certified by the person who

19 authenticated the document and signed it. He's the assistant commander of

20 a brigade, and the document should have been authenticated by somebody

21 from the Corps to assure that it had arrived at the Corps Command and that

22 it should be passed on to the units. So it's not the person that is

23 authorised.

24 It's strange that a document that originated in the Corps Command

25 or the General Staff would be authenticated by a lower-ranking person, and

Page 5515

1 I think that even this brigade perhaps was not even part of the 3rd

2 Corps. I'm not sure. I didn't actually see it mentioned in the list.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you were saying that what is

4 authenticated is the letter by Husic and not the document signed by Delic;

5 is that so?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, we have a misunderstanding.

7 On condition that the authorised person that is authenticating the

8 transcript certified this transcript, which in this case they did not,

9 then this transcript would relate only to the information that is being

10 passed forward with the cover letter by Husic, not the first part. That --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what he said.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're asked to repeat yourself, sir, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the assumption that the person

14 who authentified [as interpreted] the transcript, is the authorised

15 person, this assertion that the authenticity of the transcript is

16 certified would refer only to the document beginning from below the line

17 on the first page and going on to the second page; so this document that

18 is being enclosed with Husic's cover letter.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor or another person,

20 could they have asked for a copy of the entire document, referring to the

21 two acts or documents? Could it be some kind of authentication of this

22 type, to show that it is true to the original?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand you. Really, I

24 didn't understand.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The problem is when it was

Page 5516

1 authenticated. Is there any date showing when it was done?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, as far as I'm

4 concerned, it's not at all clear. I'm still in the dark as to this

5 authentication process.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Just briefly, Witness, in our language the authentication of a

10 document is not -- is not a certification of the correction of the

11 transcript, of the correctness of the transcript?

12 A. Generally, what I understand as an authentication of the

13 transcript is that the person who is doing that would affirm that the

14 contents of the transcript is authentic and true to the original document.

15 Q. In other words, you are saying that whether they are identical; as

16 to whether they are authentic, that is a different question?

17 A. In the Bosnian language, authentication of the transcript is

18 something that is common, and that is what is used, meaning the term

19 signifies that the contents of the original are the same as or true to the

20 copy or the transcript.

21 Q. So, in any case, the Assistant Commander for Morale of the 7th

22 Brigade was not authorised to authenticate the transcript of a document by

23 the General Staff or a document by the 3rd Corps; am I correct?

24 A. Yes, you are. Only in the event that he received a document from

25 the 3rd Corps and was sending it to his subordinate units, to his lower

Page 5517

1 unit, he could then authenticate it. If he was sending a source document

2 to his battalions, then as somebody who received the document, he could

3 then authenticate the transcript that was being sent to his subordinate

4 units.

5 Q. In any case, you said that you never saw this document and it

6 never passed through the Cabinet?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. It was not drafted and it did not pass

8 through the Cabinet.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Your Honours, may we put this document away now.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not being tendered?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please look at 28 --

15 P2809.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it P2089? I'm looking at --

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 809, 2809.

18 Your Honours, it is the document we have on our screens.

19 Q. Witness, please have a look. You commented on this in paragraph

20 28 of your statement. This is about the dismantling of the El Mujahedin

21 Detachment. It's an order.

22 You've seen this document a number of times, haven't you? You

23 looked at it several times as you were being proofed for your evidence in

24 court. You will agree with me that the final decision on the dismantling

25 of the El Mujahedin Detachment is a result of the Dayton Accords; right?

Page 5518

1 A. Yes, that's what it says. That's what the preamble of the

2 document --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could Madam Vidovic please

4 be asked not to overlap with the witness, because we can't hear the

5 witness. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I got no interpretation.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, I believe that the interpreters did

9 not interpret the last answer by the witness because there was an overlap,

10 and so you are kindly requested to consider again to be careful not to

11 overlap. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this situation I

13 really don't know how I was overlapping with the witness. I was not. I

14 see what it says, but really the interpreters should try harder.

15 Let me see what the last question was.

16 Q. Witness, I believe we discussed this. I asked you about this,

17 that -- this order being a result of the Dayton Accords being signed, and

18 you said that this was true; is that a fact?

19 A. Yes, and I said what the preamble said of the order and what

20 whoever was drafting the order was invoking, what the basis was for this

21 order.

22 Q. Thank you. General Delic found it very important to comply with

23 the agreement and as far as it concerned the El Mujahid Detachment, and to

24 comply with the terms of the Dayton Accords in general; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5519

1 Q. The Supreme Command Staff found it very important to resolve, as

2 painlessly and as simply as possible, this problem involving the El

3 Mujahedin Detachment, and this was no simple problem, was it?

4 A. Yes, that's true.

5 Q. Commendations and awards were a way to make the process of

6 dismantling the unit as simple as possible and to bring it to as speedy a

7 conclusion as possible; right?

8 A. Yes. Well, of course, if you're dismantling the unit, they're

9 much happier leaving with some sort of a commendation rather than without

10 one, walking away empty-handed, in other words.

11 Q. All right. In other words, it would be simpler for them to accept

12 this decision; they would not stir up any trouble or anything like that?

13 A. Yes, that's true.

14 Q. Now I want to ask you specifically about the Golden Lily award or

15 decoration, which is another thing that you commented on in your

16 statement.

17 This award or decoration is normally awarded for important

18 contributions to the resistance in armed -- resistance to armed aggression

19 against Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes, it's a token of appreciation for personal courage and

21 personal contributions made to the armed struggle against the aggressor.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please put the

23 document that we have before us away, please, and I want the witness now

24 to look at D666.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is the third document in a row that we have

Page 5520

1 been seeing -- that we have seen that has not been tendered. What is the

2 purpose of using these documents if they are not getting into evidence?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are documents

4 that the witness commented on in his statement. I do not wish to find

5 myself facing a situation where these documents are being tendered later

6 on through a witness who will be unable to explain the importance of the

7 document, the substance of the document, or its authenticity, and I

8 believe I am perfectly within my rights.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why don't they get them tendered through this

10 witness who is commenting on the authenticity?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I could go without,

12 but I think this is something that the OTP showed the witness in a limited

13 way. That's true. But this is not a document that I want to become one

14 of the exhibits. I just want the witness to comment on the document in

15 much the same way that the OTP had him comment on it.

16 I don't know. If you see it fit, perhaps I could move for this to

17 be exhibited.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: When we are at the judgement and a document is

19 being spoken about and we want to check what document that was and what

20 that document was saying, and it is not on the record, what are we going

21 to do? We just disregard that part of the evidence because the document

22 is not there? And it means we have been wasting time this whole afternoon

23 taking down this evidence, because the documents that are supposed to go

24 with this evidence are not on record.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think you should

Page 5521

1 raise this with the OTP, why, because these are 92 ter statements, and

2 then what they do is attach a large number of documents to this set. They

3 are tendered and exhibited. Some of these are highly detrimental, at

4 least potentially, to my client. I want this witness to shed light on

5 this document, but it's certainly not a document that I wish to tender.

6 And this is definitely not a waste of time.

7 I think I know what will happen at the end. They will try to

8 exhibit this from the Bar table or through a different witness, who will

9 confirm a small portion of the document, and I will end up not having a

10 comment on this document from a person who may be, in this case, in a

11 position to significantly contribute to our understanding of the document,

12 and I really do not believe that this is a waste of time, this entire

13 exercise.

14 What if tomorrow, for example, the OTP, as I'm sure they'll do,

15 starts tendering documents through a different witness or from the Bar

16 table?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: If they do that and the witness through whom they

18 are trying to tender the document doesn't know anything about that

19 document, then you have the right to object, because they've left the

20 witness who could have done so and didn't use him to tender the document.

21 And I would imagine that you would be perfectly within your right to

22 object.

23 Now, if the documents were attached to his statement and they were

24 not used by the Prosecution, and they are not also used by you, then we

25 don't -- they're not tendered into evidence. However, if they are used

Page 5522

1 and not tendered, then that creates a problem, at least for me. For me,

2 my understanding is any document that is attached to a statement, unless

3 specifically tendered, it's not tendered and it's not used in court. But

4 once it is used, I expect to see it at the time of judgement writing.

5 However, you may go ahead, Madam. I've heard your explanation.

6 Mr. Menon.

7 MR. MENON: Your Honour, the Prosecution would move for this

8 document to be tendered into evidence on the basis that -- on the basis of

9 actually the explanation that Madam Vidovic provided to Your Honours, that

10 she wanted this witness to shed light on the authenticity of this

11 document.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But why didn't the Prosecution tender this document

13 when it was leading this witness?

14 MR. MENON: Your Honour, the Prosecution attempted to tender one

15 document that was discussed by this witness in his statement, but it met

16 with a pretty strenuous objection from the Defence. Obviously, this

17 witness -- the nature of this witness's explanations in relation to each

18 of the documents that are discussed in his statement would have been

19 similar. They're not documents that he would have probably seen. They're

20 not documents that he has acknowledged that he saw in his capacity as the

21 Chief of Cabinet. They're documents that he can discuss on a general

22 level in terms of how they would have arrived at General Delic's desk for

23 his signature and whether or not those documents -- or whether or not the

24 signature that appeared on the documents looked like General Delic's

25 signature. That would have been the extent of his explanation.

Page 5523

1 I tried to solicit that particular explanation in relation to one

2 document, and it met with an objection, and I didn't see any point in

3 showing him additional documents that would have similarly met with

4 similar objections, and it would have just been a waste of the Court's

5 time.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic. D666.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, you see that this is a monograph, it's called, "The

10 Golden Lily."

11 Can we please go to page 2 of this document. It shows the persons

12 who were actually awarded the Golden Lily between 1992 and 1995. Page 2

13 in the English as well, in the English.

14 Please focus on this person, Antunovic, Stipo, Nikola-Kava, first

15 photograph and the first name also. It says -- just a minute, please.

16 Antunovic, Stipe, Nikola, also known as "Kava," received the war

17 decoration, the Golden Lily, in 1994 as a member of the HVO,

18 110th Glorious Mountain Brigade, Operations Group 7-South" and then --

19 just a minute. Have you seen the photograph and the caption? I'll be

20 showing you another one and then I'll be asking you a question?

21 A. Yes, I've seen it.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, Your Honours, a person

23 who was awarded the Golden Lily is a member of the HVO 110th Glorious

24 Mountain Brigade, Operations Group 7-South.

25 Can we please turn to the next page of the document. The same

Page 5524

1 page in English. It's precisely what we see over here, "Lovric, Vinko,"

2 Ronoldo -- Ronaldo. You see he was killed on the 28th of December at

3 Mujkica Brdo, and he was a member of the Croat Armed Forces, the HOS;

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what I want to ask you about these two persons is this: I'm

7 merely singling these two out as an example.

8 You will agree with me that the Golden Lily was a decoration that

9 was meant to be awarded to members of the BH Army alone?

10 A. I agree with that. The Golden Lily was awarded to members of the

11 BH Army, to certain units of the HVO, and the HOS, who fought alongside

12 with the units of the BH Army. But in addition to this, the Golden Lily

13 was also awarded to other people who contributed to the armed struggle,

14 not just members of the army. There were a number of civilians, too, who

15 won this award, certain heads of municipalities and certain individuals

16 who were not themselves members of the Armed Forces.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Your Honours, may we please have a number for this document.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 821.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, I wonder what the relevance of this

23 is.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a whole number of

25 exhibits from the OTP were in reference to members of the El Mujahid

Page 5525

1 Detachment who were awarded the Golden Lily.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask one

3 thing.

4 Witness, the Golden Lily was given to fighters, combatants who

5 fought against the Serb enemy; is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, I think a number

7 of these awards were also awarded in early 1993 and until the Washington

8 Agreement was signed, and that concerned battles against the HVO. So

9 these were not awarded for personal contribution to the struggle against

10 the Serbs alone.

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I was

12 saying. I wasn't referring only to the Army of the Republika Srpska, but

13 I was also talking about the people or the troops from the JNA at the

14 beginning of the war.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not just for courage and

16 for their contribution to fighting the Army of Republika Srpska. Some

17 members of the BH Army got their Golden Lilies also at the time when there

18 was fighting going on with the HVO, early 1993 and all the way up until

19 the Washington Agreement as the fighting --

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, now it's all

21 very clear.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

23 against the HVO.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, I was interrupted in seeking to lodge

25 my dissent against the admission of this document. It is hereby done.

Page 5526

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the relations between

4 General Delic and the corps commander. You talk about this in paragraph

5 28 of your statement.

6 When talking about the relations between General Delic and General

7 Mahmuljin, it would be accurate to say, in fact, wouldn't it, that these

8 relations had nothing unusual or exceptional about them and nothing to

9 distinguish them from the way the relations that General Delic entertained

10 with any other high-ranking officers?

11 A. If I remember correctly, I said that the relations between General

12 Delic and the Commander of the 3rd Corps, General Mahmuljin, was

13 respectful and professional, in the military way. Both were military

14 officers, and they both knew their rights and responsibilities.

15 During my time with the Cabinet, I certainly never noticed that

16 the relations between the two were in any way special. They were the same

17 as relations between the general and any other corps commander or any

18 other subordinate commander, for that matter.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Can the witness now please be shown P2131.

21 Q. Witness, have a look, please. It reads: "Information by the 3rd

22 Corps commander," dated the 2nd of June, 1995, and then it was sent to the

23 Presidency of the Republic of B and H, to the attention of Alija

24 Izetbegovic, the president.

25 Can we please look at the bottom half of the document so the

Page 5527

1 witness can see the signature. That's page 2 in the English. If we can

2 please have page 2 in the English. Right.

3 And now we can please go back to page 1 in the English and pull

4 the document down.

5 Q. Signed by 3rd Corps commander; is that right?

6 A. This signature looks like General Mahmuljin's signature, but I

7 can't establish its authenticity, and the same applies to the previous one

8 that you asked me to look at. It certainly does look like General

9 Mahmuljin's signature.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, fine. Let's pull the

11 document down a little bit, please, if we can.

12 Q. Can you look at the handwritten bit here. It says:

13 "Urgent via the Cabinet" --

14 Can we pull the English up a little, please, so we can see the

15 translation:

16 "Urgent via the office of the commander of the Main Staff,

17 Sarajevo. Deliver immediately."

18 Can we please show the document in such a way that we see the main

19 body of the document. Thank you.

20 This document is supposed to have reached the Cabinet at a time

21 when you were working there; right?

22 Could we please just zoom in so the witness can read the document.

23 A. I read the document yesterday -- rather, two days ago when I spoke

24 to the gentlemen from the OTP. I'd never seen this document before -- or,

25 rather, it had been shown to me in Sarajevo, but the first time I read it

Page 5528

1 was two days ago. This document never reached the Cabinet and was not

2 forwarded through the Cabinet. I am certain about that.

3 Q. M'mm-hmm, all right. You do agree that were this document to be

4 forwarded to the Cabinet, were it to reach the reception centre of the

5 General Staff, were they to see that it was addressed to General

6 Izetbegovic, they would have to forward it to Izetbegovic; would that not

7 be the correct procedure to follow? Can you explain that?

8 A. That was the established procedure, yes. The Communications

9 Centre of the General Staff, whenever they received documents that were

10 meant for someone else, for example, the Presidency, the Government, or

11 anyone else who was not a member of the Cabinet, all those who were in

12 communication and in touch with the Cabinet, those did not go to the

13 Cabinet directly; rather, they would be forwarded to whoever the recipient

14 happened to be. I have no idea why this handwritten note was put

15 there: "Urgent via the Cabinet." I know that that's now how these were

16 sent. It was from the Communications Centre that these documents were

17 forwarded to whoever the addressee happened to be.

18 Q. All right. Let's leave aside the handwritten note for a minute,

19 please.

20 You do agree that this is not normal procedure, in terms of

21 communication within the command-and-control system, for information like

22 this to be forwarded to the president directly; it wasn't normal, wasn't

23 it?

24 A. It is clear who informs the president. The commander informs the

25 president, and that is perfectly clear, if you look at the

Page 5529

1 command-and-control system. However, the institution of the commander

2 itself is being pushed aside here. So if all of this is accurate, the 3rd

3 Corps commander bypasses the commander and speaks directly to the

4 president of the Presidency, and this is certainly no established

5 procedure in the -- in military practice, this is not something that is

6 consistent with military rules.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Your Honours, may this document be exhibited, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 822.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

14 2802, P2802.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, may I interrupt you. Can we just

16 check the dates? It looks like the English and Bosnian dates are not

17 exactly the same. The Bosnian looks like a "5" instead of a "7".

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please lower the English.

19 There is a portion of the document that we can't see right now.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, I see the date says "5 December" now. Thank

21 you so much.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.

23 Q. Witness, have a look, please. You were shown this document

24 previously by the OTP. It's another one of those. This is another

25 document produced by the General Staff?

Page 5530

1 A. I believe I spoke about this document in my statement and I said

2 it was produced in Kakanj, not in the Cabinet itself. And one thing I

3 find illogical about this document is that the Commander of the Supreme

4 Command Staff is hereby granting authorisation for travel. During all of

5 my time with the Cabinet, I don't remember the commander ever personally

6 authorising anyone's request for travel.

7 Q. You agree, don't you, that this was another document that was

8 encrypted before it was sent? We certainly wouldn't see it, we certainly

9 wouldn't see the signature. You said it was encrypted; right?

10 A. Yes, in the upper right corner we see when it was received by the

11 corps Communications Centre. You see that it was received on the 7th of

12 December, 1995, and you see the signature of whoever processed the

13 document.

14 Q. All right. So this was not a document produced by --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- the Cabinet?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You see that it says "Kakanj, the 5th of December, 1995"?

19 A. It's on the face of the document itself. Therefore, it wasn't

20 produced in Sarajevo, it wasn't produced in the Cabinet. This strikes me

21 illogical that the army commander would authorise travel in relation to an

22 individual soldier.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Your Honours, may we please have a number, an exhibit number for

25 this document?

Page 5531

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I haven't read the English part of it. It's never

2 come up, really.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please pull this up --

4 rather, pull it down? Ah, right.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Again, Mrs. Vidovic, I'm very sorry to keep

6 bothering you about questions of relevance, but I fail to understand the

7 significance of this document.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is another

9 document that the witness comments on in his statement, in paragraph -- I

10 believe it was paragraph 27. He was shown the document by the OTP. He

11 then proceeds to comment on it.

12 If we look at the heading above the document, one may infer that

13 the General Staff authorised a member of the El Mujahid Detachment to

14 travel abroad, and we've just heard the witness comment on that particular

15 point. And it's very important for me that the witness says what he said,

16 that General Delic did not issue those kinds of authorisations.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are we then to conclude that it was ordinary

18 routine for the 3rd Corps to allow members of the El Mujahid Detachment to

19 leave the country and travel abroad whenever this was requested by a

20 member of the El Mujahid Detachment, but that the General Staff had

21 nothing to do with these permissions? Is that the significance of it?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, no, that's not what

23 I said. I said here I'm dealing with the issue of the authenticity of the

24 document, and the part that says the general did not permit or approve,

25 and I did not review the part that has to do with the 3rd Corps, but I

Page 5532

1 would not assert what you have just said, that it was something that was

2 routinely permitted. As far as I'm concerned, I am contesting the

3 authenticity of this document.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 823.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like for the witness to

10 look at document P1939, please.

11 Q. Witness, this is also a document that the Prosecutor showed you,

12 and in paragraph 26 of your statement you said that the signature appears

13 to be -- it was in the group of documents for which you said that the

14 signature seems to be the signature of General Delic.

15 Perhaps we can scroll down the document. It's page 2.

16 I would like you to read this document carefully. I believe you

17 read it earlier, because it was shown to you. And I would just like you

18 to particularly pay attention to the initials here, "FB/FH." According to

19 -- well, this first initial would lead us to conclude that you drafted

20 the document.

21 But first of all, from what I understood, "FH," the person with

22 those initials did not work in the Cabinet. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes. "FB" are my initials, but "FH," no.

24 Q. That person or such a person did not work?

25 A. No, no.

Page 5533

1 Q. Please, I believe that you read this act, and I would like to ask

2 you: Did you ever see this act before it was shown to you by the

3 Prosecutor or, rather, by his investigator?

4 A. Based on my recollection, and it's been 12 years since then, the

5 first time I saw it was when it was shown to me by the Prosecutor. That

6 was also when I looked at it strictly from the aspect of the signature.

7 Q. Please, I would like to comment now with you on the contents of

8 the document.

9 Could the English version be scrolled down, or actually can we go

10 back to the first page, the first page of the English version, please, and

11 also can you scroll it down so that Their Honours can read it.

12 Witness, please, it says here: "From January 15th, 1995, enable

13 access to prisoner of war camps established in the zone of the

14 responsibility of the 2nd and the 4th Corps, and carry out an assessment

15 of which captured Chetniks can be registered and which cannot."

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Please, the

17 English, please.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. Please, would you agree with me that the B and H Army,

20 in January 1995, especially the 2nd -- and we're talking about the 2nd and

21 the Corps here specifically -- did not have prisoner of war camps?

22 A. From what I know, in my period there were no prisoner of war

23 camps. I didn't know of them, and I never was in any prisoner of war

24 camp. I never went to one. But if you look at this document carefully,

25 it was drafted on the basis of a request by the State Commission, and I

Page 5534

1 believe that this was copied from this request or, rather, from this

2 agreement on access that was taken as the preamble of this act. I state,

3 with full responsibility, that I did not know about prisoner of war camps

4 and that I never went to any prisoner of war camp that was run by the Army

5 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. What I want to ask you is if you drafted this document. Did you

7 draft it and have you ever seen it before?

8 A. As I said, I do not recall. I could affirm that I did not,

9 specially because of the initials "FH," because that person did not work

10 in the Cabinet and could not process this document.

11 Q. I would like to ask you something about the contents, please. It

12 is said here:

13 "Permit access to some prisoners, but not to others."

14 You knew what General Delic's position was in relation to

15 prisoners of war and generally to access to prisoners of war. Please,

16 it's correct, isn't it, that General Delic approved all activities of the

17 International Red Cross and Commissions for the Exchange of Prisoners of

18 War and of humanitarian organisations?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Did you ever have any example of General Delic's having a negative

21 attitude or if he ever said, "Do not permit access"?

22 A. No, I never attended any meeting at which the general denied

23 access to any prisoner of war camp or to places where prisoners were kept,

24 and I still assert that these were not camps, and I know that when I was

25 the commander of the Operations Group and when we had captured members of

Page 5535

1 the Army of Republika Srpska in Gorazde, that he had ordered me strictly

2 to enable access to all organisations that were in Gorazde, in the place

3 where the prisoners who had been captured during combat actions were held.

4 Q. In other words, his attitude could not be reconciled with the

5 selective registering of prisoners of war, in your knowledge?

6 A. That is correct.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Your Honours, if this exhibit -- if this document could be given

9 an exhibit number, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a few questions.

11 Sir, do I understand you correctly, you say you didn't draft this

12 document?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not recall ever drafting

14 this document.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, this document was drafted four days after you

16 took up employment as a Chef de Cabinet of Mr. Delic. Do you know whether

17 there were any other "FB" -- persons by the initials "FB" in that

18 department around about this time?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except for me, there was nobody else

20 with the initials "FB" at that time.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who "FH" is?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have just said that the person

23 with the initials "FH" did not work in the Cabinet, and none of the

24 persons that we mentioned earlier, while I was giving my statement, bears

25 the initials "FH."

Page 5536

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you tell us who "FH" is?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no one in the Cabinet and in

3 the part of the Administration for Personnel and Legal Affairs that was on

4 the same floor where the Cabinet was, I also do not recall any person with

5 the initials "FH."

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. I thought when you said the person with the

7 initials "FH" did not work in the Cabinet, you meant that he worked

8 somewhere else. That's not what you meant? You meant to say you don't

9 know of an "FH"?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, absolutely, I do not

11 recognise -- or I do not know a person who could have drafted this

12 document and who also bears the initials "FH."

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to proffer an explanation -- not even

14 an explanation, but -- yeah, just an explanation, from your view, how this

15 document might have come into existence if it was not drafted by you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down the document a

17 little bit, please.

18 I don't know. The preamble of the document states on the basis of

19 what the document was drafted.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I see it's got a file number, "1/2-29." I

21 notice also that the B/C/S has typed in English "Urgent," not in B/C/S.

22 Would that be a peculiarity that surprises you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Orgent" [phoen] would refer to

24 urgent documents, documents that had to be dispatched urgently, but I

25 really do not recall having drafted this document. I don't remember

Page 5537

1 seeing it in the Cabinet, and I do not recall any person with the

2 initials "FH" who could have processed this document, technically.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Madam Vidovic, do you think we have a basis for admitting this

5 document?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would prefer not to

7 tender the document, but ...

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, then the document is not admitted. It's not

9 tendered.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honours.

11 I am just going to put -- to try to finish before the break, and

12 maybe before.

13 Q. I would just like to ask the witness the following: Paragraph 31

14 of your statement, there you commented on excerpts of the war diary of the

15 3rd Corps. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please, you never saw those war diaries before; is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. You don't know and you cannot tell us anything about the --

20 whether the contents are true or not?

21 A. No, but if you did read the statement, you will know that I

22 specifically said in the statement that that connection was strange and it

23 was contradictory for somebody from abroad to be given an observation post

24 somewhere. That connection or communication is very strange to me.

25 Secondly, in the military hierarchy, war diaries, reports and

Page 5538

1 other documents are lower-ranking documents than documents of command, so

2 the drafting of those documents were always treated in the same way. So

3 an order, a directive, a plan, is not the same, as well as sketches,

4 reports and other documents.

5 Q. You say that the Prosecutor showed you, on page 01851722, an entry

6 stating that General Delic called the post -- called by phone and was

7 connected to the post?

8 A. Yes, that is what I said, and I said that it was strange for this

9 communication to be carried out, and I remember that there was a special

10 column, "NGS" or something, and then there was an additional note

11 saying "General Delic." That is what I saw in the document.

12 Q. In any case, what I want to ask you is that you never arranged

13 such a telephone call yourself?

14 A. No, not at all. First of all, I believe that such a telephone

15 call was something that was difficult to actually arrange. Maybe it was

16 by mistake that this connection was put through, something like that

17 perhaps.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to ask you just one more

19 question.

20 I put several questions to you about the difficult situation in

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I just want to ask you something. Do you

22 remember the second half of September, 1995? Do you remember that in the

23 second half of September 1995, there was a danger that Bihac and the whole

24 Bihac region might fall and -- might fall, and that the situation in the

25 area of responsibility of the 5th Corps was very difficult, very serious?

Page 5539

1 A. I know that the situation in Bihac was difficult from the

2 beginning of the war and from the liberation activities and actions of the

3 5th Corps also, but I really cannot remember when this was. Was it in the

4 beginning of September, or I don't know whether this relates specifically

5 to early September, because in September, from what I remember, I don't

6 know when in September or October, there were the actions by the 5th Corps

7 when a significant part of this territory was liberated.

8 Q. Just one moment, Witness. I don't know if you understood me. I

9 was asking you about the second half of September, not the first half of

10 September. So we're talking about late September. Isn't it true that

11 you, together with General Delic, in late September 1995 visited the Bihac

12 area and spent time there because the situation there was exceptionally

13 difficult? This is what I'm talking about.

14 A. Yes, yes, yes, correct. After the liberation of

15 Bosanski Petrovac, Laniste and Kljuc, units of the 5th Corps were in an

16 exceptionally difficult situation, and staying in the area of the 5th

17 Corps, together with General Delic, I was in Kljuc when the situation was

18 really very difficult, very dramatic, and when some units of the 5th Corps

19 were pushed back and when some units practically suffered huge losses so

20 that they were not fit for combat at all.

21 Q. Do you agree that that was when General Delic spent at least two

22 weeks in the Bihac area in the second half of September 1995?

23 A. I don't know how long he spent there, but I know that I spent a

24 total of, I think, four days there. I was there for four days, but I went

25 with another team, and then General Delic came and I returned. We didn't

Page 5540

1 come back together, so I cannot really say how long he was there, how long

2 he spent in that area.

3 Q. So when you got there, General Delic was already there, you found

4 him there, and you left before him; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I found General Delic already there, and I left that

6 area before he did. I returned to Sarajevo.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Your Honours, I have no more questions for this witness at this

9 point.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

11 Mr. Menon.

12 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:

14 Q. Witness, the first question that I'd like to put to you, it's

15 actually to clarify an answer that you had given to the Defence counsel.

16 And, Your Honours, the question appears at line 21 -- or page 21,

17 line 25 of the transcript.

18 And, sir, the question that was put to you was:

19 "Now, Mr. Buljubasic, now that we're talking about Srebrenica,

20 about the Srebrenica area, the tragedy also affected the following

21 places: Srebrenica, Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje; is that true,

22 sir?"

23 And you answered:

24 "I'm not quite sure. I think the Srebrenica tragedy affected

25 Srebrenica alone. As for Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje, most of

Page 5541

1 those had fallen previously into the hands of the Republika Srpska Army."

2 Sir, my question to you is: When you refer to Kamenica, are you

3 referring to the Kamenica which is located in the area around Zavidovici

4 or another Kamenica?

5 A. No, no, I am speaking about Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje

6 which are in the broader area of Srebrenica, Zepa and that part down

7 there, not the Kamenica that is near Zavidovici. From what I recall,

8 these are areas that were lost in 1993. The population withdrew to the

9 Srebrenica enclave. So when we're talking about suffering, probably we're

10 thinking about the -- that area and the population in that area. So I'm

11 talking about Kamenica in the area or near Srebrenica.

12 MR. MENON: Now I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

13 PT2809.

14 Q. Sir, you were shown this document during the course of

15 cross-examination, and it refers to the disbandment of the El Mujahedin

16 Detachment. Are you aware of whether the El Mujahedin Detachment was, in

17 actual fact, disbanded pursuant to this order?

18 A. I don't know. I know for sure that immediately before this order,

19 at the time when this order was supposed to be executed, a member of the

20 El Mujahid Detachment had left the Bosnia and Herzegovina area. I don't

21 know the exact number involved, and I don't know if that was the entire

22 detachment, but for sure, some of the El Mujahid Detachment members had

23 left Bosnia and Herzegovina in early January. So I don't know if, in

24 accordance -- if, pursuant to this order, the unit was completely

25 dismantled or not, but I'm sure that in January, a number of the El

Page 5542

1 Mujahid Detachment members had left Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 Q. And, sir, in the answer that you just gave, you said:

3 "I know for sure that immediately before this order, at the time

4 when this order was supposed to be executed, a member of the El Mujahedin

5 Detachment had left the BiH area."

6 Does that mean that you were aware that this particular order had

7 been created in December 1995, sir?

8 A. I didn't know about this order, because the order was drafted in

9 Kakanj, but -- this specific order, but I knew that measures had been

10 taken to dismantle the El Mujahid Detachment, and I know for sure that a

11 number of its members, and if I remember correctly this was from the Bihac

12 area, were evacuated. I think that they had gone back to countries of

13 their origin, if I remember correctly. I didn't say one detachment but I

14 said a part of the detachment, meaning a number of members of the

15 detachment. I cannot say this for the entire detachment. I never knew and

16 I don't know now the total number of members of the El Mujahid Detachment.

17 Q. And, sir, when you say: "I knew that measures had been taken to

18 dismantle the El Mujahid Detachment," can you tell us, sir, what you --

19 when you say "measures," what measures are you referring to?

20 A. I knew that it was the duty of the Army of the Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, pursuant to the Dayton Accords, for all sides, and

22 this is stated in the accords, that all foreign armed forces on the

23 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina had to leave the area of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina. I don't know the exact date that was the deadline. And I

25 know measures were taken at the level of the General Staff, and I know

Page 5543

1 that a part of them left, because I was in touch with and was in charge of

2 checking how these preparations were proceeding and if a number of those

3 people who were supposed to leave had actually left. And this is why I

4 know for sure that a part of them left sometime in January 1996.

5 Q. And you said, in the last answer that you gave: "I was in touch

6 with and was in charge of checking how these preparations were

7 proceeding." Can you explain what little bit what you mean

8 by "preparations"? What preparations were you involved in?

9 A. At the time, I was in Sarajevo. I was not involved in any direct

10 preparations, but this was regulated in the order, meaning that those

11 people should be treated just like other people when a unit is dismantled,

12 that weapons, equipment should be taken back from those people and then

13 for those people to be grouped in one place, and then from that place they

14 should be sent to the countries, from what I can recall, of their origin

15 or, rather, from which they came to the territory of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina during the war.

17 I specifically did not participate in any preparations, and I said

18 that I never was in the area or location where El Mujahid was, and I never

19 knew and I don't know to this date, 12 years after the war, how big the

20 unit was, how many of them there were, or anything like that, or where

21 they came from, all the places they came from to the territory of Bosnia

22 and Herzegovina.

23 Q. And, sir, in the last answer that you just gave, you referred to

24 weapons, equipment being taken back. Do you know if weapons and equipment

25 were taken back from the El Mujahedin Detachment after that unit was

Page 5544

1 dismantled, sir?

2 A. I really don't know. This order was sent to the 3rd Corps

3 Command. People from the 3rd Corps Command were responsible for

4 implementing this order. I don't think I ever finished reading it. I

5 don't know what's in it, what the substance is. Therefore, those people

6 should know whether they seized any weapons or equipment from anyone, how

7 much exactly, and whether they carried through all the individual items

8 and paragraphs contained in this order.

9 MR. MENON: Thank you very much, sir.

10 Your Honour, I would ask that this exhibit be admitted into

11 evidence.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 824.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Would that then be a convenient time to take our break?

19 We'll come back at quarter to 6.00.

20 Court adjourned.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, you said you have no further questions?

24 MR. MENON: No, Your Honour, I have no further questions.


Page 5545

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I had only a small question to

3 put to you. It had to do with the order.

4 At some point in time, Witness, you said -- let me find the

5 place. I'm looking at the transcript. Yes, at some point in time, you

6 told us -- I can't find the right place, but do you remember you telling

7 us that you had not seen this order, or am I wrong, this order on

8 dismantling.

9 A. Of the El Mujahid Detachment, you mean?

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [In English] Oh, sorry. [Interpretation] Sorry.

11 Would you mind repeating, because I'd forgotten to put my headphones on.

12 A. Do you mean the order on the dismantling of the El Mujahid

13 Detachment?

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Exactly.

15 A. That's true. This order was written in Kakanj. I didn't see it.

16 The first time I saw it was when I was being proofed for my evidence upon

17 my arrival in The Hague. That was when I saw it. And I saw it today

18 again. I think it was shown on our screens twice. Both the Defence and

19 the OTP wanted me to comment on it.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then I fail to

21 understand one thing that you said on page 69, line 16. You said this:

22 "I was not involved directly in preparations, but that was

23 regulated or established in the order," you said.

24 Now, if you did not see this order, what order were you then

25 speaking about?

Page 5546

1 A. I meant this in a more general sense, I think. It was about the

2 provisions of the Dayton Peace Accords which said that all the

3 international armed forces that were in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time of

4 the conflict should leave Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is the military

5 component of the Dayton Accords. I think it also sets a deadline. I

6 don't know what the deadline is, but I think there is one.

7 I know that right after, certain measures were taken to comply

8 with these provisions or, rather, for members of the El Mujahid Detachment

9 to --

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Therefore,

11 you were not thinking of this order on dismantling the detachment; you had

12 in mind other orders or rules that were contained in the Dayton Agreement,

13 the Dayton Accords.

14 A. Yes, precisely.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.


17 Mr. Menon, any questions arising from the Judge's questions?

18 MR. MENON: No, Your Honour, no questions from the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 That brings us to the conclusion of your testimony, sir. Thank

23 you very much for taking the time to come and testify. You are now

24 excused. You may stand down. And do travel well back home. Once again,

25 thanks.

Page 5547

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Pursuant to the Trial Chamber's earlier oral decision, the

6 Prosecution calls PW-9.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I beg your pardon. Apparently we will

8 then need to break for ten minutes for them to sort out what has to be

9 sorted out to hear PW-9.

10 Shall we break and come back at 6.00.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.50 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

14 [The witness entered court].

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I confirm that we are in private session.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5548











11 Pages 5548-5557 redacted. Private session















Page 5558

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

15 Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 I'd ask that the witness now be shown the document marked PT2849.

18 PT2849.

19 Q. Witness PW-9, do you see the document on the screen in front of

20 you?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Do you recognise, sir, any of the names contained on this

23 document?

24 A. I recognise several names.

25 Q. Can you tell us, sir, which names you recognise and why it is that

Page 5559

1 you recognise those names?

2 A. I recognise the name Eshref Hassan [phoen], Abduli Lahkaraci

3 [phoen], Muhamed Momodudja [phoen], Hans Walter Kris [phoen], Muhamed

4 Mualid [phoen]. Those are the names that I recognise.

5 Q. And why, sir, do you recognise these names? How do you know these

6 people?

7 A. They were members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

8 Q. And, sir, in paragraph 306 of your written statement, when you

9 refer to other members of the El Mujahedin Detachment receiving the Golden

10 Lily, are you referring to these persons?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution would ask that this

13 document be admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal or --

15 MR. MUNDIS: There's no need to since this witness's name does not

16 appear.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not there. Okay, fine. PT2849 is admitted

18 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 828.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that the witness now be shown the document

22 PT2851. PT2851.

23 Q. Again, sir, I would ask you if you recognise any of the names of

24 individuals contained on this document.

25 A. I recognise one name, Nedal Saleh, the third from the top on the

Page 5560

1 list.

2 Q. Sir, this document purports to relate to the awarding of the

3 Silver Shield war decoration. Do you know what that is, sir, this Silver

4 Shield?

5 A. It's also a war decoration, but of lower rank than the Golden

6 Lily.

7 Q. And, Witness PW-9, again in your statement, your written

8 statement, at paragraph 306, where you make reference to members of the El

9 Mujahedin Detachment receiving the Silver Shield, are you referring to the

10 person Nedal Saleh?

11 A. Yes, I was referring to him, and there were some other Bosnians

12 who had received the Silver Shield.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document be admitted

14 into evidence, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 829.

18 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown PT1828.

19 PT1828.

20 Q. PW-9, do you see this document on the screen in front of you?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Can you tell -- can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document

23 is, please?

24 A. It's a decision on appointment/promotion to the ranks of the Army

25 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 5561

1 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that we scroll through this eight-page

2 document, one page at a time, and I'd like you to tell us if you recognise

3 any of the names of the individuals who are listed on this document.

4 So perhaps if we could scroll down in the Bosnian version.

5 And when you're done with each page, if you'll just tell us, and

6 we'll turn to the next page.

7 A. On this page, I recognise the name "Muhamed Basic."

8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, who is Muhamed Basic?

9 A. Muhamed Basic was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Here

10 it says that he was the commander of the 2nd Company, but he actually

11 worked in the social services of the detachment and was just formally

12 appointed as company commander and given a rank.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the next page in both the

14 Bosnian and English versions of this document.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These names are not familiar.

16 MR. MUNDIS: If we could then -- yes, thank you -- scroll to the

17 bottom.

18 Q. Do you recognise any of those names, sir?

19 A. No.

20 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next page in the Bosnian

21 version and in the English version.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're not familiar.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Then scroll down, please. Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not familiar, either.

25 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next page in the Bosnian

Page 5562

1 version and in the English version. Actually, we need to skip ahead one

2 page in the English version.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not familiar.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Before we go to the next page, Your Honours, I would

5 ask that we go into private session, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5563

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These names are not familiar to me.


21 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Do you know a person by the name of

22 Abdulmelik Basic?

23 A. I didn't see him right away. Yes, I know the name Basic,

24 Abdulmelik.

25 Q. How do you know Basic, Abdulmelik?

Page 5564

1 A. Abdulmelik Basic was also a member of the detachment. However,

2 his task was not the way it's put here, to be the Assistant Commander of

3 the Company for Morale. Abdulmelik was actually translating or

4 interpreting in the medresa, the religious school for the detachment.

5 Q. And when you say, sir, "the medresa" or "religious school," in

6 what location was this medresa that you've referred to located?

7 A. It was in the barracks of Vatrostalna in Zenica, which was the

8 barracks of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please scroll down to the bottom of the

10 Bosnian language version of this document, please.

11 Q. And I would ask you, sir, if you recognise any other names on this

12 page.

13 A. I recognise the name "Nedim Haracic".

14 Q. And how do you recognise that name, sir, and how do you know this

15 person?

16 A. Nedim Haracic was also a member of the detachment, but just like

17 the previous people mentioned, he wasn't the Assistant Commander for

18 Morale of the Company. He worked in the El Mujahedin Detachment's press

19 centre.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to page 7, the next page in the

21 Bosnian version, which corresponds to page 12, I believe, of the English

22 version.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name I recognise here

24 is "Muris Ribo."


Page 5565

1 Q. And, again, PW-9, how do you recognise that name or how do you

2 know this person, "Muris Ribo"?

3 A. Muris Ribo was also a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment. He

4 worked as an interpreter or a translator during religious training for the

5 detachment. He was not actually performing the duties of Assistant

6 Commander for Morale.

7 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could finally go to page 8 of this document

8 and page 13 of the English version, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recognize any of these

10 names.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, PW-9.

12 The Prosecution would ask that this document be admitted under

13 seal, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence under seal.

15 May it please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 830

17 under seal.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the

20 document marked PT1732. That's PT1732.

21 And while that document is coming up:

22 Q. PW-9, do you know a person by the name of Delic, Saban?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. How do you know that person, sir?

25 A. Saban Delic was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

Page 5566

1 Q. And do you know, sir, when Saban Delic joined the El Mujahedin

2 Detachment?

3 A. I don't know the exact date when he came.

4 Q. Do you see the document on the screen in front of you, sir?

5 A. I see the document.

6 Q. Can you tell us what this document is?

7 A. This is an order about deployment to new duties in units of the

8 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it refers to Saban Delic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask that the English one be scrolled up, please.

10 Let's see what's written on it.


12 Q. Do you know, PW-9, if Saban Delic had been a member of another

13 unit before he joined the El Mujahedin Detachment?

14 A. I didn't know, and I don't know if he was a member of any other

15 unit before.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, or do you have any information about why a

17 document of this type would have been created?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. This is an

20 invitation to speculate. How could the witness know that?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, there is information contained in the

23 witness's written statement that perhaps relates to that, and that's why

24 I've put this question.

25 Let me rephrase the question.

Page 5567

1 Q. PW-9, do you know or were you ever present at any meetings where

2 the subject matter of persons moving from one unit of the Army of the

3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to another unit of the Army of the Republic

4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was discussed?

5 A. I was present at such a meeting once.

6 Q. And can you tell us --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you go on, can we please see the end of

8 the document in English. I would like to -- I can't read the signatory to

9 this document. And, please, every time you show us part of the Bosnian,

10 show us the same part in the English, please.


12 Q. PW-9, when you say you were present at such a meeting once, do you

13 recall the specifics, in terms of who was in attendance, where this

14 meeting was -- and where this meeting was?

15 A. This was a meeting at the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a

16 meeting between the Commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment, Abu Maali,

17 and President Izetbegovic. Other than President Izetbegovic and Abu

18 Maali, I was also present at the meeting, as well as Abu Haris, who was

19 the first commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Also, Muris Supic was

20 present as well as Sabahudin Albani [phoen]. This was in the second half

21 of October 1994.

22 This meeting was where the transfer of individuals to the -- from

23 other detachments to the El Mujahedin Detachment was discussed.

24 Q. And do you know, sir, if such transfers had taken place prior to

25 this meeting on October 1994?

Page 5568

1 A. Before that, members of other units would come and join the El

2 Mujahedin Detachment. However, their status was not settled, or, rather,

3 the units they left would register them as deserters, and that is why

4 their status was not resolved, and that was the reason for the meeting

5 with President Izetbegovic.

6 Q. Now, sir, the meeting that you've discussed, you told us, was in

7 the second half of October 1994, and this document seems to be relating to

8 or dated in April 1994. Can you explain the date on this document in

9 relation to the meeting that you've just told us about?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. The

12 witness did not draft this document, and I cannot see how the witness

13 could explain the connection between this document, the date of the

14 document, and the meeting that took place several months later.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, if I may add my little confusion to

16 what Madam Vidovic is asking, the witness said he remembers a meeting and

17 that he attended. He doesn't link that meeting with this document.

18 MR. MUNDIS: The answer, Your Honours, concerning the meeting was

19 in direct response to a question that I put him about the subject matter

20 concerning individuals moving from or transferring from one unit to

21 another, and that's what this document is addressing.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true. Okay.

23 MR. MUNDIS: And in response to that, he then told us about a

24 meeting which he said was in the second half of October 1994, and he

25 explained that in great detail. My question to him is if -- or what I'd

Page 5569

1 like to ask him to clarify, if he can, is why he's telling me about a

2 meeting in the second half of October 1994 in response to questions

3 concerning a document from April of 1994.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's just the issue. The meeting that he

5 attended has nothing to do with this document of April 1994. He's just

6 telling you about a meeting that he attended where the transfer of people

7 from one unit to the other within the Army of BiH took place, without

8 claiming that that meeting is related to this. These kind of transfers

9 might have taken place long before he attended the meeting in October.

10 They might have taken place long, again, after he had attended the

11 meeting, but he has not linked this meeting to this document.

12 MR. MUNDIS: That's -- Perhaps that was unclear, but that's

13 precisely what I was trying to ask the witness to do, if he can explain to

14 us why he's telling us about a meeting in October when I had asked him

15 about the issue as it relates to the document.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection again, Your Honour. The

18 witness is responding to the Prosecutor's question about the meeting, and

19 again that had nothing to do with this document.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Let me try this:

21 Q. Witness, I asked you about the document, and in response you told

22 us about a meeting.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You asked him about -- let's go to the question

24 that you asked, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I think it's on line 13.

Page 5570

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said, at line 24, page 93:

2 "PW-9, when you say you were present at such --"

3 I beg your pardon.

4 MR. MUNDIS: It's on line 13, Your Honour, on page 93.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page -- 13. Sorry.

6 "Do you know or were you ever present at any meetings where the

7 subject matter of persons moving from one unit of the army to another unit

8 were discussed?"

9 Any meeting, not this meeting -- not this document. Now, we don't

10 know how many times such meetings took place. He may have attended

11 this -- this meeting is the one that he remembers, without necessarily

12 claiming that it is related to this document.

13 MR. MUNDIS: I'm following.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've ended. If you're still listening, then you

15 still don't follow me.

16 MR. MUNDIS: No, I'll simply move on to a different topic. I

17 don't think I can take this any farther with this witness.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

19 MR. MUNDIS: I will indeed. I would ask at this point that this

20 document be marked for identification.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document will be marked for identification.

22 May it please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 831.


25 Q. Witness PW-9, do you know an individual by the name of Mehmed

Page 5571

1 Jusic?

2 A. I don't know Mehmed Husic.

3 Q. Jusic, Mehmed Jusic.

4 A. I do know Mehmed Jusic, yes.

5 Q. How did you know, sir, Mehmed Jusic?

6 A. Mehmed Jusic was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, and

7 that's where I got to know him.

8 Q. Are you aware, sir, of any time during the course of the war when

9 Mr. Jusic left Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. I know that Mehmed Jusic went to Malaysia for medical treatment.

11 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which Mr. Jusic went for

12 medical treatment?

13 A. Jusic had a serious injury of the face and eye, and it was the

14 practice in the El Mujahedin Detachment that the wounded who could not

15 properly be treated in Bosnia be treated abroad, and their treatment would

16 be paid for.

17 Q. Were there any formalities that you're aware of, sir, that were

18 required for such medical treatment abroad?

19 A. I did not perform tasks of that nature, so I'm not really familiar

20 with the formalities.

21 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness be shown the document marked

22 PT1882.

23 Q. Sir, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?

24 A. Yes, I see it.

25 Q. Can you tell us what this document is, sir?

Page 5572

1 A. The first time I saw it was when the Prosecutor showed it to me,

2 so I didn't see it before that. It states that this is permission to

3 grant Mehmed Jusic travel to Malaysia for the purpose of medical

4 treatment. I do not see the entire document, the signature.

5 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please -- yes, thank you very much.

6 I would ask if the second page of this document could be shown to

7 the witness, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the signature part of the -- thank you.

9 MR. MUNDIS: And perhaps if we could zoom out a little bit on the

10 English version so that we could see the whole page on the English

11 version.

12 Q. Now, this -- this document, sir, can you tell us which unit was

13 the originating unit of this document?

14 A. I didn't see it before, I didn't draft the document, but it says

15 that it was drafted in the El Mujahedin Detachment.

16 Q. And, sir, during the time period you were in that detachment, did

17 you ever see any documents that originated from that unit, from your unit?

18 A. I did see some documents, but very few.

19 Q. And do you see the stamp on this document, sir?

20 Perhaps we could zoom in on that.

21 A. Yes, could we zoom in, please.

22 Q. Do you recognise that, sir?

23 A. This is not Abu El Maali's signature, definitely not, and this

24 stamp is not familiar. From what I can see -- or from what I know, the

25 army stamps had the number of the unit. This stamp is not familiar to me.

Page 5573

1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned the number of his unit's

2 stamp. The interpreter did not get the number.


4 Q. Would you repeat the number, sir?

5 A. 5689, military unit 5689.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, other

8 than that, also said a whole sentence that was not recorded in the

9 transcript. He literally said, on page 99, after line 16, he said other

10 than that, the El Mujahid Detachment had a different stamp. That was not

11 recorded in the transcript.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get assistance if -- okay.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, I heard it in the French

14 interpretation, I heard what Ms. Vidovic just mentioned.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Mundis, it's five past 7.00.

17 MR. MUNDIS: I would suggest we adjourn for the evening at this

18 point. We'll return to this tomorrow, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll take the adjournment and come back

20 tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom, sir.

21 Court adjourned.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

24 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.