1
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered
court]
4 [The witness entered
court]
5 --- Upon commencing at
6
JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning,
everybody.
7
Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8
THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good
morning, Your Honours. This is
9
case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances for
today, starting with the
12 Prosecution.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel,
and everyone in and around
15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya
Menon, Anna
16 Svensson, and our case manager, Alma
Imamovic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
Your Honours. Good
20 morning to my learned friends from the OTP,
to everyone in and around the
21 courtroom.
I'm Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas Robson, representing
22 General Rasim Delic, with legal assistants
Lejla Gluhic, Lana Deljkic and
23 Asja Zujo.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
25 Madam Vidovic, before we call you, (redacted)
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3
At the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
4
truth, and nothing else but the truth.
5
I remind you that you are still bound by that declaration. Thank
6 you
very much, and I'm sorry for what I just said.
7
Madam Vidovic?
8 WITNESS: PW-9 [Realtime transcript read in error
9
"PW-8"] [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered
through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by
Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
12 Q.
Good morning, Witness. I hope you
rested well and we can
13 continue.
Yesterday, we talked about Sheik Enver Saban, and in relation
14 to that, I just want to put one question to
you.
15 The Sheik was connected to the
activities of the Egyptian
16 Al-Jama'ah, Al-Islamiyah, if I pronounced
it correctly; is that correct?
17 A.
Yes, there were some links, I am aware of that, between Sheik
18 Enver and the Egyptian Samat Al-Islamiyah,
although I am not sure if that
19 is true or not.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt, I see that the
record
21 states that the name of the witness is
PW-8. I thought it was PW-9.
22 We'll just make sure that we know it's
PW-9.
23 You may proceed. Thank you.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
Honour, that is correct.
25 Q.
Thank you, Witness. Now I'm going
to ask you something else. It
1
has to do with a group of questions put to you in your statement. It has
2 to
do with discipline in the El Mujahedin Detachment.
3
When you talked about the El Mujahedin Detachment, you said, in
4
paragraph 106 of your statement, that the detachment command wanted to
5
have respect, order and discipline, which meant that they should be
6
respected by ordinary, regular people and in the environs; is this
7
correct?
8
A. Yes, I did say that in my
statement.
9
Q. The detachment had camps that
were monitored; is that correct?
10 A.
Yes.
11 Q. There were guards, and it was known who was
entering and who was
12 exiting the detachment?
13 A.
Correct.
14 Q.
In the detachment, there were rules of conduct?
15 A.
Yes, that is correct.
16 Q.
We saw that the Shura pronounced disciplinary measures and acted
17 as a kind of military tribunal; would you
accept that?
18 A.
Yes, the Shura did hand down disciplinary measures, that is
19 correct, although such measures were also
passed down by some responsible
20 people in the detachment, not just by the
Shura. There was no military
21 tribunal, as such, within the detachment.
22 Q.
You also said that some responsible people and the Shura passed
23 down disciplinary measures. This was not done outside the detachment?
24 A.
Yes, this is correct, it was done inside the -- or within the
25 detachment structures only.
1
Q. And it was done in accordance
to the detachment rules?
2
A. Yes, according to detachment
rules.
3
Q. Would it be correct to say
that the Shura and these responsible
4
people in the detachment did not allow interference in affairs that they
5
considered to be their own in the detachment, they did not allow anyone
6
else outside of the detachment to interfere in what they considered to
be
7
their own affairs; is that correct?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. You said that members of the
detachment were trained also in
10 respect of prisoners of war. (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 Your Honours, I would like to go
into private session, please.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we move into private session.
15 [Private session]
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
2
3
4
5
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9
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11 Page 5670 redacted. Private session
12
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20
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25
1
(redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5
(redacted)
6 [Open session]
7
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours,
we're back in open session.
8
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very
much.
9
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 666.
10 Q.
As you can see, Witness, this is an act of the Security Service
11 Department of the 3rd Corps from the 21st
of June, 1995, and again it
12 relates to the events in the El Mujahedin
unit.
13 I would now like the witness to look at page 2
of this document.
14 This is page 3 in the English version. Can we scroll down the English
15 version, please. Thank you very much.
16 Can we look at the last paragraph?
17 Witness, I'm going to ask you
something. You see a part here
18 that's underlined. Could you please read that?
19 It says here that the information
is that "Nebil Al Misi" [phoen]
20 and someone else had set out to the front
lines, and since they did not
21 know the way, they found themselves 15
metres from Chetnik lines and the
22 shooting that ensued, the -- Nebil was hit,
but Mustafa did not know
23 whether he was killed after that. An operation was carried out. Two
24 Chetniks were killed and two heads were
brought."
25 Please --
1
JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Madam
Vidovic.
2
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3
Q. Would you agree that from
this document, we can see that this
4 event, relating to the beheading, took place
in action, in the course of
5 an
action?
6
A. Yes, that is correct. That is one of the cases that I mentioned,
7 and
I mentioned all these particulars in my statement. This happened to
8 happen in my zone of responsibility. This was on the 29th of May, 1995.
9
That was when the action was. I
don't know the date that is on the
10 document, but I think that that was the
time that it happened. It was
11 shortly after the first action on the
Zavidovici front.
12 Q.
So these people were killed in battle, and then the beheading took
13 place; am I correct?
14 A.
Yes, that is correct.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We
can put the document away now.
16 I would like the witness to look at
Exhibit 665 now, please.
17 Q.
I would like to draw your attention to the middle of this
18 document, where it says:
19 "During the killing of a
member of this unit ..."
20 If you can see that. Perhaps we can scroll down the English
21 version.
22 This relevant part for us begins
with the words: "When one of the
23 members ..." Do you see that
part? Perhaps it would be the easiest
thing
24 if I quoted it. It says:
25 "When one of the members of
the El Mujahedin unit was killed,
1
they organised a squad of ten fighters who went out in front of the
lines
2 of
defence, liquidated a number of Chetniks, slit the throats of two of
3
them, and carried their heads through the villages along the
4
valley."
5
My question to you is: Do you
agree that in this document, this
6
same event is being described?
Can you please take a look?
7
A. Yes, that is correct, the
same event is being described.
8
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
We can put this document
9
away now.
10 Q.
I was thinking of the event that we discussed in connection with
11 the previous document, number 666. Is that correct?
12 A.
Yes.
13 Q.
I would now like to draw your attention to paragraph 197 of your
14 statement.
You described another event where it is said that the Arabs
15 from the line brought the head of Momir, a
policeman. Please, can you
16 tell us what you know about this event that
has to do with this beheading?
17 A.
This event or incident took place shortly after our second
18 operation on the Vozuca front. Abu Sabit Masri, who was responsible for a
19 section of the line, led a group to -- into
reconnaissance towards the
20 Serbian Army lines, and during this
reconnaissance a sabotage attack was
21 carried out on several dugouts on the Serb
lines. And on that occasion,
22 some -- I think three members of the
military police were killed. I think
23 it was either the military or the civilian
police, I'm not sure anymore,
24 who happened to be on the line of the Army
of Republika Srpska. Their
25 heads were cut off and brought to the
1
Q. So the beheading of Momir,
the policeman, in no way can be linked
2
with the beheading of any prisoner of war; is that correct?
3
A. No, it cannot. I remembered his name. Their documents, IDs, were
4 brought, and a diary was found on one of the
policeman, too. I think that
5
they were from Srbac.
6
Q. You said, if I understood
correctly, that you remembered this
7
name. Can you remember this name?
8
A. Momir. I'm talking about Momir. That's the name I remembered, I
9
think Momir Mitrovic, something like that.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you very much, Witness.
11 Your Honours --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I hear well that the name is Momir
Mitrovic?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
Your Honour.
14 Q.
Well, Witness, did you say "Momir Mitrovic"?
15 A.
Yes, I did.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, can we move into
17 private session once again, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private
session.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just
briefly.
20 [Private session]
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
(redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q.
You will agree with me that the Security Service in the detachment
19 that you described was not an organ of the
Security Service of the Army of
20
21 organs of the Military Security Service of
the Division or of the Corps,
22 perhaps?
23 A.
Yes, that is correct. That is a service formed by the Detachment
24 Command, and it was solely responsible to
the Detachment Command.
25 Q. What Beganovic actually did was to be in charge of the camp
1
security?
2
A. Yes. That was to take care of the Vatrostalna base
that was the
3
Command of the detachment, and also to take care about the discipline of
4 the
members of the El Mujahedin Detachment who at that time were in
5
Vatrostalna.
6
Q. So he did not gather data for
the Corps security organ?
7
A. No, not at all, that is
correct.
8
Q. He did not work according to
their instructions, the instructions
9 of
the security organ of the 3rd Corps, according to your knowledge?
10 A.
No, he worked according to Muatez's instructions.
11 Q.
Awad Ajman either did not carry out the duties of a commander, he
12 was a translator, was he not?
13 A.
Yes, Ajman Awad was working as a translator, mostly with Muatez,
14 and he did not have any particular function
in the El Mujahedin
15 Detachment.
16 Q.
Witness, thank you. I'm just
going to ask you to pause between
17 question and answer so that the transcript
can keep up with my questions
18 and your answers.
19 Now I would like to put some more
questions to you that have to do
20 with the existence of some other services
within the detachment.
21 In paragraph 148 of your statement,
you mentioned the personnel
22 service, and you said that in the course of
1995, it was better organised.
23 Now I would like to put some questions to
you so that we can see what kind
24 of service it was.
25 I want to ask you: The detachment did not have an actual
1
personnel service that registered all the fighters?
2
A. The personnel service did
keep a register of the members of the El
3
Mujahedin Detachment, so I don't know what you're thinking of
4
specifically. That was its
assignment.
5
Q. What I mean is this: It did not have a service that took
6
passports from the foreigners, registered them, provided the appropriate
7
municipal organs with the information or the municipal ministry,
provided
8
them with information about members of the detachment, something that
9
other army units did? This is
what I was thinking of. But can you
please
10 wait for the question to be recorded.
11 A.
The personnel service in the detachment did not do that. There
12 was a separate service for newly-arrived
Arabs. That was called "The
13 Command for Arabs," which did
something similar to what you are saying
14 now.
They would take their passports, et cetera, but the information was
15 not passed on to the 3rd Corps Command.
16 Q.
Although the 3rd Corps Command insisted on this, did it not? You
17 know that the 3rd Corps Command insisted on
this?
18 A.
Yes, I do know that. However,
they received only information by
19 nicknames, not by the real names of the detachment
members.
20 Q.
Fighters did not have personal ID cards or register cards?
21 A.
No, they did not have those in the detachment.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you.
23 Your Honours, at this point I would
like to go back briefly into
24 private session again.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
1 [Private session]
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
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23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
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11 Pages 5679-5680 redacted. Private session
12
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16
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18
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20
21
22
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24
25
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours,
we're back in open session.
7
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very
much.
8
Yes, Madam Vidovic.
9
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
10 Exhibit 591.
11 Q.
Before the document turns up on our screens, in the detachment one
12 knew that the Security Service was
harbouring a certain amount of mistrust
13 towards the Command and the detachment and
that they were holding them
14 under some sort of treatment; is my
understanding correct?
15 A.
Yes, that's correct.
16 Q.
Please look at this document now.
It's a short document produced
17 by the Security Service Department, dated
18 heading is:
"List of members of the El Mujahedin unit, hereby requested
19 by."
Have a look, please?
20 A.
Can we zoom in, please?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could
we zoom in, please. And I can
22 also -- or we can see better now.
23 The witness is done reading. Can we bring the English back on our
24 screens, please. Thank you.
25 Q. Based on this document, there is an order by the 3rd Corps
1
commander -- or, rather, the document reads that:
2
By an order of the 3rd Corps commander, the manpower levels of
3 the
El Mujahedin unit were restricted, and further recruitment of fighters
4
from abroad and domestically was suspended, at least by the 22nd of
April,
5
1995.
6
My question about that -- here we are, April 1995. Did anyone in
7 the
detachment actually know that any further recruitment of any sort of
8
members, domestic or foreign, to the El Mujahedin Detachment was, in
fact,
9
suspended?
10 A.
Yes, that was a well-known fact.
I, myself, saw the order at the
11 time it was issued.
12 Q.
So was this order complied with?
13 A.
New members were being recruited to the very last day of the
14 detachment existence, so the order was not
complied with.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you very much. We can put
16 this document away now.
17 Q.
And now for logistication [as interpreted], logistication of the
18 detachment.
19 During your evidence yesterday, if
my understanding was correct,
20 you mentioned that, in logistical terms,
the detachment was receiving
21 symbolic assistance from the army. You described that it had its own
22 logistics, and you mentioned some
humanitarian organisations which the
23 detachment had established, itself.
24 Can you tell us briefly how this
worked, if you know?
25 A.
As for its logistics, the detachment was left to its own devices,
1 in
a way. Any support that came from the
army was very sporadic and
2
insufficient, if I may put it that way.
Everything the detachment
3
required, in terms of food, clothing, weapons and the like, was bought
by
4
using donations that we had secured from abroad in most cases.
5
Speaking of the humanitarian organisations that I referred to in
6 my
statement, their assistance was used to get certain special items that
7
couldn't be obtained in Bosnia, so they had to be obtained from abroad,
8
such as signals equipment and the like.
9
Q. In paragraph 72 of your
statement, you say that it was Muatez who
10 decided which sort of military equipment
would be purchased and which not?
11 A.
Yes, that's right.
12 Q.
In paragraph 143, you say that you obtained vehicles, yourself,
13 for the purposes of the detachment. Is that right?
14 A.
Yes. Vehicles were purchased both
domestically and abroad.
15 Q.
In paragraph 84, you say that you received some salaries, the
16 amount being 110 [as interpreted] Deutsche
mark, but you had no idea where
17 the money had come from; right? You remember that?
18 A.
Yes, it was 80 Deutsche mark, not 110.
19 Q.
Thank you very much. I said
"100" and the transcript reflects
20 "110," but you say 80. All right.
21 Can the witness now please be shown
Exhibit 782.
22 Witness, this is another document
entitled: "Information
23 produced by the Security Service
Administration of the 3rd Corps."
The
24 date is 20th of June, 1995. Please focus on paragraph 2. It talks about
25 contact being established between Ebu Meali
and Ebu Ejub. I quote:
1
"In a conversation, Ebu Meali informs Ebu Ejub that a group of
2
Bosniaks is coming and to give them a 15-day rest, 100 Deutsche mark,
and
3
three kilograms of meat."
4
So is it true that funds for salaries were secured by the
5
detachment, itself, as this document might lead us to conclude?
6
A. In addition to the salaries
that were paid to the detachment,
7
sometimes monetary assistance would be granted to certain members of the
8
detachment, in keeping with what was actually possible and in keeping with
9 the
needs of each individual.
10 Likewise, after every operation,
the war booty, in terms of
11 weapons, would be estimated in financial
terms, and then this would be
12 divvied up and distributed to whoever had
been involved in the operation
13 itself.
14 Q.
All these funds were actually secured by the detachment command,
15 weren't they?
16 A.
Yes.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you very much, Witness.
18 I'm moving on to something
different now. But before I do, I
19 would like us to see a video clip now. It's the same one that the OTP
20 showed you yesterday. I have it here as P6199, but actually it's
Exhibit
21 A33.
22 Could my learned friends from the
OTP please play the video, since
23 their version has subtitles? Could you please play back to us General
24 Delic's speech?
25 [Videotape played].
1
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned friends.
2
Q. You testified about this clip
yesterday, and you said that the
3
atmosphere prevailing in this video clip did not reflect the actual
4
situation when you were there.
First of all, do you agree that this took
5
place on the 1st of January, 1996, in a certain institution, and where
was
6
that?
7
A. Yes, it was a huge hall, a
sports hall of the army hall in Zenica.
8
It's in a neighbourhood known as "Mokusnica" if that means
anything to
9
you.
10 Q.
Does a single shot from this video show this gym hall or sports
11 hall where you say the ceremony actually
took place?
12 A.
No, nothing even remotely like what actually happened.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I
have a question.
14 I would like to see the videotape at
the point when Mr. Delic
15 speaks and behind him we see sort of a
cupboard or a shelf, a bookshelf,
16 something that looks like a bookshelf.
17 May I please see that excerpt,
please.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, this is something that
19 I needed to have clarified.
20 Can you please play again General
Delic's speech.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
No, that's right, I'm only
22 interested in the excerpt when General
Delic speaks. And also in view of
23 what the witness told us yesterday, that
is, that the ceremony took place
24 inside and not outside, therefore the scene
does not correspond to what he
25 remembered, so I would just like to clarify
that point because the
1
speakers were maybe speaking inside a building and maybe there were some
2
people outside. So I would just
like to clarify that point.
3
MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps, Your
Honours, it might take us a moment to
4
find that actual part of the videotape, and perhaps we can do that and
5
Mrs. Vidovic can continue, and we can come back to that in a few
moments,
6
once we've identified what we think Your Honour is referring to, just to
7 save some time.
8
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Your Honours, may we
9
proceed like that?
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
Yes, absolutely, no problem.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you.
12 Q.
You said that the event took place at a farewell ceremony in an
13 enclosed space; is that correct?
14 A.
Yes, that is correct, and nobody stood outside. They were all
15 inside.
Everybody could come inside the hall or they were staying in
16 the -- standing in the corridor or on the
stairs in front of the hall, but
17 nobody was standing outside, and nobody
outside could hear what was
18 actually going on in the hall.
19 Q.
You saw on the video different scenes of speeches. You can see
20 the speakers, you can see the mass or the
crowd, you can see the Mujahedin
21 with their flag. Please, were you ever present -- did you see
or hear
22 General Delic address the Mujahedin at any
occasion anywhere, other than
23 this event that you mentioned?
24 A.
This is the first time that I personally saw General Delic, and I
25 believe that the other members of the
detachment had never seen him
1
before, either, never mind have him address them, except on television.
2
JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand
the answer. The question was:
3
"Please, were you ever present -- did you see or hear General
4
Delic address the Mujahedin at any occasion anywhere, other than this
5 event
that you mentioned?"
6
Now, I underline those last words.
Now, the answer says:
7
"This is the first time that I personally saw General Delic
..."
8
I'm not quite sure which first time is this is. Now, in court, or
9 at
that location that you're referring to?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This
relates to this occasion that I
11 was talking about,
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you, Your Honour, for the
14 clarification.
15 From what I understand, the OTP has
found -- please, can you now
16 play this segment that Her Honour Judge
Lattanzi asked for.
17 Q.
Witness, now I would like you to look at this scene. Her Honour,
18 Judge Lattanzi, asked you about that, and I
believe that Judge Lattanzi
19 will have more questions to put to you.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q.
Witness, please, you see General Delic here, and you see an
23 enclosed space, and you see a bookcase or a
cupboard there. Does this
24 image correspond to the part of the
location where the ceremony took
25 place?
1
A. No, this doesn't resemble it
at all. You can see General-- the
2
general sitting here. He was
actually giving a speech. There was a
3
microphone in front of him in the hall itself of the army hall. There was
4
quite a large stage. There were
no cupboards or book bookshelves or
5
cases, anything like that.
6
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what the witness said
7 was
that he gave the speech standing up, and this was not recorded in the
8
transcript.
9
Q. Is that correct, did I
understand you correctly?
10 A.
Yes, that is correct.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the witness's view of this
picture? Does
12 he say this person is standing or is he
still sitting? And if, whichever
13 position he takes, can he explain why?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q.
Witness, can you explain that?
16 A.
What I can see here is that he is sitting, and that is the
17 position of the body, and the hands are --
or arms are leaning on a desk.
18 Q.
In any case, Witness, please, you saw the speech with your own
19 eyes.
Is this an image -- does this photograph with this cupboard
20 correspond to that image of the stage that
you mentioned where this speech
21 was given from?
22 A.
No, this does not resemble the image of that stage, no.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we run the tape a little bit, please?
24 [Videotape played]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone,
please, Your Honour.
2
JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that still be
in the same speech?
3
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4
Q. Can you please answer that?
5 A. I'm
not sure that I understand the question well.
6
JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it still the
same speech, the same occasion
7
where you said he was standing -- or sitting, rather, with his arms on a
8
desk which I didn't see? Is it
the same occasion, would you say?
9
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not the same occasion.
10 This is happening in the open. You can see trees in the background, and
11 this is not how it was at that farewell
ceremony.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I don't see trees. I see lines.
Are they
13 trees or do you know?
14 So is it your testimony, sir, that
what we see here is a different
15 occasion from what we saw a few minutes
ago?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes,
that is correct.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 Madam Vidovic.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, I'm getting confused now. Are we
20 to understand that neither this picture,
nor the former picture where he
21 was sitting, neither of these two pictures
were actually taken from the
22 farewell party on 1st January 1996 in
Zenica; is that what we are to
23 conclude?
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
Precisely, Your Honour, neither one.
25 And I just wanted to clarify something in
relation to your question to the
1
witness.
2
Q. Witness, please, no image in
this video footage corresponds to the
3
situation in which this other speech was given; is that correct?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
5
MR. MUNDIS: I'm happy for the
witness to answer the question, and
6
then I'd like to put some comments on the record, if I may.
7
JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
8
A. Yes, that is correct, no
scene. Yesterday, when we were looking
9 at
the earlier part of the tape, the stage where General Sakib Mahmuljin
10 is speaking, you can see President
Izetbegovic standing next to him, and
11 he wasn't present either. So this does not correspond, absolutely, to
12 what was actually happening then. No image from the video footage does
13 correspond.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I'm reluctant to intervene at this point, but
I do
16 believe it's necessary in order to avoid
any unnecessary confusion.
17 When the Prosecution initially
filed its motion on 25 September
18 1997 to add this clip to its exhibit list,
our position was quite clear,
19 and it's stated in paragraph 2 of that
motion. I'm not going to indicate
20 what it is.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, yes.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Our position was quite clear.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
Madam Vidovic, sorry, your opposite number
24 stood up while you were asking --
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, I'm concerned that
1
now, with this explanation, of course the Prosecutor will influence the
2
witness. I do not want the
witness to hear this explanation. We all
know
3
what it says in the submission, but I think that in this way the
4
Prosecutor can interfere or influence the answers by the witness.
5
MR. MUNDIS: That's precisely why
I'm referring to the paragraph
6
numbers of our written pleading, where the Prosecution's position is
quite
7
clear on this point. That was all
I was going to say, so that we can
8
avoid any unnecessary confusion regarding what this clip is, and I have
9
nothing further to say. And of
course I'm not going to say anything that
10 would taint the witness's testimony, but I
do refer you back to our
11 initial filing on the 25th of September,
2007, where the Prosecution view
12 was quite clear on this matter.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
14 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you. I apologise, Your
16 Honour.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe we could ask the witness if he knows
which
18 occasion this live clip is then from,
because it appears as if the footage
19 of General Delic seems to correspond to the
written words, the movements
20 of his mouth seem to be those that actually
came down in the transcript.
21 So it looks, at least from this clip, as if
this is a live recording of
22 General Delic's speech and what we see on
the transcript corresponds to
23 what he's actually saying in the video, so
the issue is now: Does the
24 witness know which occasion this was, if it
was not on the 1st of January?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1
Q. Witness, I asked you earlier
if the General addressed the
2 El
Mujahid. Do you know at all where these
images were taken, what
3
occasion it was?
4
A. Well, let me say again that
General Delic never addressed members
5 of
the detachment. As for this footage, I
think I know where it comes
6
from. I think this is from the
ceremonial lineup --
7
THE INTERPRETER: Could the
witness please repeat his answer?
8
JUDGE MOLOTO: You are requested
to repeat your answer, sir. The
9
interpreters didn't hear.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I
have already said and I repeat,
11 General Rasim Delic never addressed the
members of the El Mujahedin
12 Detachment except on the occasion on the
1st of January, 1996, in the hall
13 of the army in Zenica. I believe that this footage is from a
ceremonial
14 review of the army in Zenica, which was not
attended by members of the
15 El Mujahedin Detachment.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q.
[No interpretation]
18 A.
This footage was shown several times on Bosnia and Herzegovina
19 Television.
20 Q.
I would just like to repeat the question. I asked the witness:
21 What was the basis of his testimony
regarding to the location of this
22 speech, and the witness then answered that
this was shown several times on
23 television.
Is that correct, Witness?
24 A.
Yes, that is correct. It was
shown on
25 Television, and even in the corner of the
image you can see that there is
1 the
TV "BiH" logo.
2
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can focus on the
3
upper right-hand corner. I don't
know if that's possible. All right.
4
I would like to put more questions to you about this footage.
5 [Videotape played]
6
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to put two or three
7 short
questions to you now.
8
Q. From what I understood, you
did not recognise the voice of General
9
Delic. Is that correct?
10 A.
That is correct. I said that the
voice was very like his voice,
11 but I cannot assert that that was actually
the voice of General Delic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What
I -- Your Honours, the witness
13 answered that the voice slightly resembles,
but here it's entered as "very
14 much resembles." It's opposite from what the witness said.
15 Q.
Witness, would you please repeat, in relation to the voice, what
16 you said?
17 A.
Yes, that is correct, it resembles the voice of General Delic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, thank you very much.
19 Would this be a convenient time?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, very well, and I will
21 continue with two or three questions in
relation to this after the break.
22 Perhaps I can put two short
questions now.
23 Q.
Witness, please, what you said yesterday is that Delic held, on
24 that occasion -- or gave on that occasion
an appropriate -- a suitable
25 speech, and then you said, "What I
heard on the video did not resemble
1
that situation." And based
on that, I conclude that you did not recognise
2 the
speech of General Delic in that speech that was played on this video.
3
A. Yes, that is correct.
4
Q. It was a known fact that the
Mujahedin did not like NATO; is that
5 correct?
6
A. Yes, that is correct.
7
Q. And it was not an opportunity
to mention NATO forces and to
8
address NATO forces during a farewell address to them; is that correct?
9
A. That is correct. When I listened to this video, this seemed
very
10 inappropriate to me for an occasion such as
that.
11 Q.
You would remember that he said something like that on that
12 occasion on
13 A.
I believe that I would have remembered it, because that would
14 grate on one's ears considerably.
15 Q.
You don't remember that, and you also did not hear him talking
16 about command and control in the detachment
on that occasion; is that
17 correct?
18 A.
Yes, that is correct, and it
seems to me not to make sense like
19 that.
The detachment was already dismantled and most people left
20 and
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, I apologise to the
22 Trial Chamber, but I have been asked by
Sense, who are broadcasting this
23 hearing, that the public is very interested
in listening to this, and this
24 is why I tried to finish a little bit
earlier before the actual break, and
25 I apologise.
1
JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand
that last paragraph.
2
We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.
3
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't say --
4 --- Recess taken at
5 --- On resuming at
6
JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8
I would now like to ask some questions that have to do with the
9
attitude or the relationship between the El Mujahedin Detachment and the
10 3rd Corps.
11 Q.
Yesterday, in your testimony, the Prosecutor - and also when you
12 were giving the statement and in the
preparation for your testimony -
13 showed you many orders from the 3rd Corps
that had to do with the El
14 Mujahedin Detachment. In connection with those orders, I would like
to
15 ask you the following, you personally: In relation to the orders from the
16 Corps did not -- in connection thus with
those orders, did not communicate
17 with members of the 3rd Corps; is that
correct?
18 A.
Yes. The documents that were
shown were documents that I saw for
19 the first time when the Prosecutor showed
them to me.
20 Q.
The Prosecutor showed you documents that had to do with joint
21 actions of the detachment and members of
the 3rd Corps, and in connection
22 with that, I would like to clarify certain
matters.
23 It's not in dispute that the El
Mujahedin Detachment fought in
24 actions, including actions in July and
September 1995, and some other
25 actions that you mentioned. However, you would agree with me that the
1
detachment did not participate in those actions then, when the Corps
2
ordered it, but when this decision was made by the Shura or the Emir;
3
would that be a fair conclusion?
4
A. The decision about when there
would be an action was taken, in
5
principle, by the staff of the detachment, headed by Muatez; in
principle,
6 of
course. That was the rule. Those who made the preparations for the
7
operations would decide when the detachment would be ready for action.
8
Q. You have just said -- well,
you mentioned preparations. Am I
9
correct if I believe that the detachment fought pursuant to the plan
10 drafted by that special unit for
preparation and planning or the Emir?
11 A.
Yes, that is correct. The
detachment, itself, planned absolutely
12 everything that had to do with the
operation.
13 Q.
We saw some orders where it says, for example, the detachment
14 should take part in an action according to
the plan of the 35th Division.
15 When it participated in actions, did the
detachment fight pursuant to the
16 division plan or pursuant to its own plan?
17 A.
The detachment executed operations according to its own plans. I
18 believe that the purpose of the action or
the plan was to inform other
19 units that the detachment was planning or
executing such-and-such an
20 action at such-and-such a sector.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you. At this point, I would
22 like you to look at document P1726.
23 Q.
Can you please look at this document.
I would like to say that
24 this is an order by the 3rd Corps Command
of
25 ordering the resubordination of units. I would like you -- and now --
1
yes, very good.
2
If we can now please look at paragraph 1. According to -- this is
3 the
time in which, thus, you were a member of the detachment; is that
4
correct? And this order refers to
the detachment?
5
A. Yes, that is correct.
6
Q. Please, would you agree that
it says in the document, on the basis
7 of
need to join the units or unify the units, link up the units more
8
easily, and because of the system of control and command:
9
"I order the El Mujahedin Detachment ..."
10 And then something:
11 "... SDB to be resubordinated
to the 330th Light Brigade in all
12 elements of the control and command."
13 And it seems that in the signature,
we have Brigadier Mehmed
14 Alagic.
15 Well, what I want to ask you is the
following, please: Thus, it
16 is ordered here that the El Mujahedin
Detachment, in all elements of
17 control and command, on the day of -- I'm
going to ask you to remember
18 this date --
19 all elements of command and control to the
330th Light Brigade. Please,
20 it's correct, isn't it, that this
resubordination is de facto -- is
21 something that de facto never happened?
22 A.
This is the first time that I am seeing this order. I am aware
23 that members of the detachment took over a
section of the line from the
24 330th Brigade on the
25 sort to the Command of the 330th Light
Brigade.
1
Q. So there was no
resubordination that took place. The
detachment
2
never entered under the command of this brigade, as was ordered?
3
A. No, never.
4
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
5
given an exhibit number, please.
6
JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it can, but
can we just see the heading of the
7
document in the English. And may
it please be given an exhibit number.
8
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that
will be Exhibit number 845.
9
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can
the document be put away,
11 please.
12 At this point, I would like the
witness to look at P1727.
13 Q.
For the transcript, Witness, if we can just look at the beginning
14 of the -- oh, we can see. This is a document of the 3rd Corps of the
5th
15 of April -- the 3rd Corps Command of
16 Can we please look at the place
where the signature is.
17 Judging by the document, it seems
to be signed by the corp
18 commander, but now I would like to go back
to the first page of this
19 document because I want to ask you about a
fact.
20 You probably have not seen this
order before you said that, but I
21 would like to ask you about the fact that
has to do with the El Mujahedin
22 Detachment.
It's quoted in this order.
23 Your Honours, if we can go back to
page 1.
24 You can see that on
25 Corps is issuing an order for the formation
of OG-3 North, whose
1
composition should, among other units, also include the El Mujahedin
2
Detachment.
3
This is page 2 in the English, Your Honours, page 2, 2, page 2 of
4 the
English version.
5
And, Witness, what I would like to ask you is the following: We
6 saw
earlier just now a document with the date
7 two
days ordering the resubordination to the 330th Brigade. That is what
8 I
asked you to remember, if you recall.
9
A. Yes, I do.
10 Q.
Now we have a document of
11 the formation of Operations Group
North. That should also include the
12 El Mujahedin Detachment. It says that the OG North Commander should be
13 Mr. Musinbegovic, Jusuf.
14 What I want to ask you is the
following: It's correct, isn't it,
15 that the El Mujahedin Detachment never
joined the organic composition of
16 OG-3
North; is that correct?
17 A.
This document was already shown to me when I was giving my
18 statement to representatives of the
OTP. That was the first time I saw
19 it, and I am not aware that such an order
was made under which the
20 El Mujahedin Detachment should become part
of OG-3 North. Definitely, the
21 El Mujahedin Detachment was not a part of
OG-3 North. We did carry out
22 some operations in the operations zone of
the OG-3 North, but we were
23 never a part of OG-3 North.
24 Q.
Mr. Jusuf Musinbegovic never commanded the El Mujahedin
25 Detachment; is that correct?
1
A. Yes, he never commanded the
El Mujahedin Detachment. I mentioned
2 in
my statement that on one occasion at a meeting, Jusuf Musinbegovic
3
ordered the detachment to take part in one operation, and this is
4
something that Muatez smoothly refused to do.
5
Q. You wrote that in paragraph
66 of your statement, and you said
6
that "Commander Musinbegovic was in charge of the whole operation.
7
However, our detachment did not take part in that operation because
Muatez
8
refused that because the El Mujahedin Detachment was not ready for
that."
9
Is that correct?
10 A.
Yes, that is correct.
11 Q.
The detachment not only did not accept the order on the
12 resubordination to OG-3 North, as was
ordered, but according to that
13 order, the commander did not even enter
into combat actions?
14 A.
Yes, that is correct.
15 Q.
However, what is correct is that the detachment, three weeks or a
16 month later, carried out this action
independently, without any order?
17 A.
Yes, that is correct.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honour, could we please show
19 1831 to the witness. But before that, I would like to tender this
20 document.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 846.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Do we
have P1831 on the screen?
1
For the transcript, while waiting for the English translation, I
2
wanted to say that this is an official note of the security organ of the
3
330th Brigade, dated
4
some events at Visoka Glava and Pisana Jelika, and you've answered to
some
5 of
the Prosecutor's questions regarding these two locations.
6
Q. Please read paragraph 2 of
the document, which begins with:
"On
7 the
7th of October, 1994 ..." Read it
to yourself, please.
8
The document mentions a meeting between members of the 330th
9 Brigade
and the El Mujahedin Detachment members at the front line, during
10 which contact was established between an
operative from the 330th Brigade
11 and OG North, as well as the El Mujahedin
Detachment. That operative, as
12 one could see from the document, tried to
persuade Emir that he had
13 certain orders from the commander. In the document, it is stated that the
14 Emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment took
that man's rifle away and that
15 the interpreter interpreted that Emir gave
a certain order to the member
16 of the 330th Brigade to pick up his radio
set and call his commander.
17 What I want to ask you concerning
this is the following: It seems
18 that the Emir of the detachment, in the
field, orders members of the 330th
19 Brigade around, rather than the other way
around?
20 A.
Such situations occurred frequently.
After the operation, some
21 local units had to assume the positions
previously taken over by the El
22 Mujahedin Detachment. However, they would usually be late, and I
believe
23 that was the reason for this incident as
well. This clearly shows that
24 the detachment was not resubordinated to
the 330th Brigade.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you.
1 Your Honours, could we please assign
an exhibit number to this
2
document.
3
JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is
admitted into evidence. May it
4
please be given an exhibit number.
5
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours,
Exhibit number 847.
6
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7
Q. In paragraph 67 of your
statement, you said that, and I quote:
8
"Orders came from the 3rd Corps, but as for the El Mujahedin
9
Detachment, Commander Muatez had the final authority to make decisions
10 about whether or not to take part in an
operation."
11 I just would like to clarify
something.
12 This authority was not given to
Muatez by the Command of the 3rd
13 Corps, was it?
14 A. That is correct. I think we addressed that already. His
15 authority derived from the Command of the
El Mujahedin Detachment, from
16 the Emir and the Shura.
17 Q.
Therefore, the authority was given to him by the Emir and Shura,
18 and he followed that through; is that
correct?
19 A.
Yes, it is.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could
we please show P1731 to the
21 witness now.
22 For the transcript, this is a
document from the 3rd Corps Command.
23 The date is
24 the El Mujahedin unit that is being
ordered.
25 Q.
Do you agree with me that this is the third order within the
1
period between
2
ordering that the El Mujahedin Detachment be resubordinated?
3
Could you please go to page 2 in the English. Scroll up so that
4 we
can see the text.
5
This time, on
6 El
Mujahedin Detachment is being ordered to the Command of the 7th Muslim
7
Brigade for the forthcoming combat operations. I wanted to ask you this
8
concerning this document and in general:
During the time when you were
9 there,
that is, as of the moment you joined the detachment until the end
10 of the war, did the 7th Muslim Brigade
Command act as the El Mujahedin
11 Detachment Command at any point?
12 A.
The detachment was never resubordinated to the Command of the 7th
13 Muslim Brigade, and the Command of the 7th
Brigade had held no sway, no
14 authority, over the detachment.
15 Q.
You saw these three documents and a number of others, and I'd like
16 to put my case to you.
17 The documents which came from the
3rd Corps and the orders by
18 which the 3rd Corps attempted to include
the El Mujahedin Detachment
19 within the corps structure were basically
just pieces of paper. The
20 detachment never accepted such orders or any
resubordination?
21 A.
That is correct.
22 Q.
You've told us already that the Command of the detachment decided
23 whether they would participate in a certain
operation based on their own
24 criteria applied to the preparation of that
action or operation?
25 A.
That is correct.
1
Q. In other words, the 3rd Corps
could not count with the El
2
Mujahedin Detachment when they would need it, when they thought the
3
detachment should participate in a given operation?
4
A. Precisely so.
5
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document
6
please be admitted into evidence.
7
JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is
admitted into evidence. May it
8
please be given an exhibit number.
9
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours,
Exhibit number 848.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q.
It is correct, is it not, that the detachment accepted to
13 participate in certain operations by
putting certain conditions first; is
14 that correct?
15 A.
That is correct. Those conditions
mainly had to do with the
16 technical preconditions to carry out the
operation.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are "technical preconditions"?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That
means that the El Mujahedin
19 Detachment always carried out operations
within the areas of
20 responsibility of other army units. All those defence lines of the army
21 were
mined, and mines and minefields should be cleared first so that
22 members of the detachment could safely
enter the area between the two
23 front lines. It also entailed making new paths and roads
to be used to
24 pull out casualties and to transport
supplies and support.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1
Q. In paragraph 208, you
described or stated that Muatez insisted,
2
concerning the Al Kamara operation, or Al Kamari -- I'm sorry if I'm
3
pronouncing it wrong. In any
case, he asked that all the other units
4
should not act independently but under the Command of the detachment.
5
This was not a technical issue but an issue of the Command; is that
6
correct?
7
A. Yes. While answering the previous question, I
thought we were
8
still discussing our operations in the Teslic theatre, which was within
9 the
OG North area of operation. We haven't
reached Vozuca by that point.
10 Q.
A part of my transcript -- a part of my question was not recorded,
11 and I will repeat it.
12 I reminded you of paragraph 208 of
your statement, whereby you
13 said that Muatez, concerning the Al Kamari
operation, insisted that the
14 other units involved should not act
independently and that they should be
15 under the command of the detachment. Then I said that it was not a
16 technical issue, but rather it had to do
with command?
17 A.
That is correct.
18 Q.
On occasion, the detachment would cancel its participation in
19 certain operations that had been planned?
20 A.
That is correct.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could
we please show Exhibit 396 to
22 the witness.
23 Q.
I believe you have never seen this document. It is a document
24 from the 3rd Corps Command, dated
25 with the engagement of the El Mujahedin Detachment within the area of
1
responsibility of the 35th Brigade.
And on
2
ordered that the El Mujahedin Detachment be resubordinated to the
Command
3 of
the 35th Division and engage it in accordance with the plan of the
4
Commander of the 35th Division.
5
I would like to ask you this -- Your Honours, could we please move
6
into closed session.
7
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber
please move into private session.
8 [Private session]
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
(redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9
(redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We
have here a summary of the
15 contents of certain letters that were sent
to
16 mention made of Imad as being the person
who drafted the letter.
17 Please read to yourself the first
paragraph and then let me know
18 when you are done.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've
read it.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q.
"Imad" is actually Imad Al Misri [phoen] for whom in your
22 statement you said was in charge of the
detachment communications; is that
23 correct?
24 A.
Yes, it is.
25 Q. He is sending a report expressing his position by stating that the
1
detachment is formally within the structure of the army, but he says:
2
"They cannot order us into action without our own will." He also states
3
that the detachment puts forth plans for actions, since the army has no
4
experience in that.
5
You will agree with me that this document reflects accurately what
6 you
have testified about yesterday and today; is that correct?
7
A. Yes, it is.
8
Q. Therefore, you agree with me
that the detachment worked like this,
9 in
practical terms, at least from the moment that you joined to the end of
10 the war; it worked like this, didn't
it: In formal terms, it was under
11 the army command, but in practical terms it
made its own plans and the
12 army was in no position to order anything;
is that right?
13 A.
Yes.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We
can put this one away. Thank
15 you.
I'm moving on to another set of questions.
16 Q.
In the statement you made to the OTP, you say that you were
17 involved in combat activities in September
1995. Perhaps you can still
18 recall the second day of this particular
action, the 11th of September,
19 1995.
So can you?
20 A.
Yes, I can.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, could the witness be
22 shown map number 17 from the map book.
23 Before we look at the map, may I
just ask you this:
24 Q.
Can you remember the exact disposition of the El Mujahedin
25 Detachment at about
1
Mujahedin Detachment on
2
A. I'm able to recall their
positions. I was there, myself, and I
3
know and remember clearly where the groups were.
4
Q. Would you share that with us,
please. Tell us, first of all, and
5
then we'll try to pinpoint the exact positions on the map.
6
A. At
7
September, the El Mujahedin Detachment was preparing to continue
8
operations in the Kvrge area.
Therefore, the detachment was supposed to
9
crush enemy lines in the Kvrge area and continue to advance down the
10 territory and in a northerly direction
towards Ozren.
11 Q.
Do you remember what the previous location was? What about
12 Djurica Vis, was that the previous location
before Kvrge, or on the 11th
13 of September, 1995, had you already reached
Kvrge by
14
15 Could we please zoom in slightly --
16 A.
Indeed.
17 Q.
-- for us to see the Kvrge area?
18 A.
The upper half of the map. It's
fine like this. A little further
19 up, please.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I
think this is all right. Can we
21 keep it like this, please.
22 Q.
Witness, can you please circle "Kvrge" by using the electronic
23 pen?
24 A.
[Marks]
25 Q.
You were at Kvrge at around
1
then?
2
A. The detachment units, at
3
Serb-held positions around Kvrge.
They continued to push forward until
4
that evening. They had taken the
area around Vukadino Brdo and Nemici
5
[phoen] village, and Vukadinov Brdo itself.
6
Q. Can you mark that on the map,
please?
7
A. [Marks]
8
Q. The Prosecutor asked you
questions about the POWs who were taken
9 in
Kesten village on that day. Can you
please mark that village for us,
10 if you can see it on the map.
11 A.
Perhaps if we pull the map down a little.
12 Q. I
don't think we can do that, but I think you should be able to
13 see the village. There. Thank you?
14 A.
[Marks]
15 Q.
You said that at
16 Detachment were in this combat area. Was a single group belonging to the
17 El Mujahedin Detachment, from
18 area, based on your personal knowledge?
19 A.
What I'm about to say applies to that entire day and later on.
20 Not a single group belonging to the El
Mujahedin Detachment was in the
21 Kesten village area.
22 Q.
In paragraph 263 of your statement, you say that it's not true
23 that members of the El Mujahedin Detachment
took POWs away from any other
24 units, and then you go on to state that you
remember that no unit of the
25 328th Brigade -- or that one unit of the
328th Brigade reported that some
1
members of the El Mujahedin Detachment had arrived and taken charge of
2
POWs. You go on to state that you
believe that they had simply fabricated
3
this story in order to receive money in return for these prisoners.
4
And now, finally, I'm coming to the crux of my question. Witness,
5 are
you certain that the El Mujahedin Detachment did not seize, take away,
6
capture, whatever you like, those prisoners on that day, those 61
7
prisoners?
8
A. I am entirely certain.
9
Q. This is quite a large number
of prisoners we're looking at. You
10 would have been in a position to find out
about this. Would you know?
11 A.
I certainly would have found out.
It entirely impossible that
12 anything like this should have happened
unbeknownst to me.
13 Q.
We discussed a great many groups, groups of Arabs, fighting in
14 Central
15 nothing to do with the El Mujahedin
Detachment, did you not? Right. And
16 now my question: It is true, isn't it, that the El Mujahedin
Detachment
17 was not the only Arab group; that on
18 in the Vozuca area?
19 A.
That's true, we were not the only group there.
20 Q.
I asked you about Abu Zubeir's group, about Hamdala, and you said
21 you were aware of the existence of those
groups. Do you know that on that
22 day, those groups were involved in this
same combat area?
23 A.
Yes, I do know that on the previous day, the 10th of September,
24 they were there, because I personally met some
members of Abu Zubeir's
25 group.
1
Q. Personally met. What exactly do you mean by that? You saw them
2 or
perhaps you met them in order to arrange something. Can you clarify
3
that, please?
4
A. I saw them. We did not arrange anything with them. They were not
5
working with the El Mujahedin Detachment in that particular
operation. As
6 I
said in my statement, I do not know that they worked with any other
7
military unit, either, but I did realise that they were present in the
8
area.
9
Q. Do you know that a large
number of humanitarian workers were
10 involved in the fighting with Abu Zubeir?
11 A.
I had heard of this, of the fact that some humanitarian workers
12 were working with Abu Zubeir, but I didn't
know those people.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can
the map be given an exhibit
14 number, please, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
16 be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 849.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can
the witness please be shown
20 Exhibit 343 now. Thank you.
Exhibit 343.
21 All right. We see that now.
22 I'm not sure how we can follow the
translation of this document.
23 Perhaps it will be a more practical idea to
put this on the ELMO and show
24 the English on our screens. No.
Oh, well.
25 All right. Be that as it may, at this point in time,
what I care
1
about is this map.
2
Q. Witness, this is a map
produced by one of the persons involved in
3
this battle. This person drew a
map showing the Mujahedin attack on Ozren
4 and
Vozuca in 1995. Based on this diagram --
and you see the key to the
5
diagram. You see that the thick
black line shows the movement of Abu
6
Zubeir's groups, whereas the somewhat paler, brighter line, at least
7
according to this person, shows the advance of the El Mujahedin
Detachment
8 in
the actual battle.
9
Much along the same lines, we see that Abu Zubeir's groups had
10 arrived from Kalesija across Orahovo,
Vares, and then Breza in Zenica, and
11 then from Gluha Bukovica and the area of
Zeljezno Polje. They linked up
12 as soon as they reached the Vozuca front
line. That's what the
13 explanation says.
14 Are these the same locations that
you referred to as the places
15 where Abu Zubeir's groups were deployed,
Gluha Bukovica and the Zeljezno
16 Polje area?
17 A.
That's right. I know that Abu
Zubeir's headquarters was at
18 Zeljezno Polje. He personally was based there. They had another group at
19 Gluha Bukovica. I said already that I was not aware of the
Kalesija
20 group.
21 Q.
Thank you. And now is it true,
that is at least what the map
22 appears to indicate, isn't it, that Abu
Zubeir's groups were moving nearly
23 in parallel with the El Mujahedin unit
throughout these combat operations?
24 Can you comment on that, sir?
25 A.
These arrows marking the moves of the El Mujahedin Detachment are
1 not
really perfectly accurate. The entire
map is a little simplified, but
2 I
can say for certain that the detachment was not using these axes, was
3 not
moving along these axes displayed here.
Well, in part, it was, but
4 not
entirely.
5
Q. Right. Do you know that on the 10th and 11th of
September, 1995,
6 Abu
Zubeir's group was moving to, along these axes, between Vozuca and
7
Ozren along with some humanitarian workers?
8
A. That was where we came across
them, at the foot of Paljenik,
9
roughly speaking, and that's what the arrows indicate. Perhaps a little
10 higher up, a little higher up. A little further to the east, perhaps, in
11 a place called "Stog." Those who were involved claimed that they
12 continued from Stog on down this axis. If that's what they claim, then
13 it's probably like that.
14 Q.
You're saying "Stog," Witness, but we can't follow that. Can you
15 please, at least roughly, mark on this map
where it was that you met Abu
16 Zubeir's group?
17 A.
[Marks] Somewhere in this area, roughly speaking.
18 Q.
Thank you. Did you also hear that
on the 11th of September, Abu
19 Zubeir's group was moving towards Ozren
also?
20 A.
As far as I know, they remained in the area until the very end of
21 that operation.
22 Q.
When you say "in the area," can you try to be more specific,
sir?
23 Which area do you have in mind?
24 A.
I mean the area in which combat operations continued north of
25 Vozuca, between Prokop and as far as Ozren
and further beyond.
1
Q. Thank you very much. Let's try to further clarify this.
2
Abu Zubeir's groups, or indeed humanitarian workers, at the time,
3
were not under the command of the El Mujahedin Detachment, were they?
4
A. That's right.
5 Q.
They weren't even working together with the El Mujahedin
6
Detachment during these combat operations, were they?
7
A. We didn't even know they were
there until we actually bumped into
8
them.
9
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Your Honours, may the map please be
given -- or, rather:
11 Q.
Witness, just please write "Stog" or whatever you say was the
name
12 of that particular location.
13 A.
[Marks].
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank
you.
15 This map has been exhibited
already, but we want this map as a new
16 exhibit marked in the way the witness has
just marked it. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
18 be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 850.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We
can put this away now, please.
22 Could the witness please be shown 669,
Exhibit 669.
23 This is entitled: "Information by the Security Service
24 Department." The date is the 16th of September, 1998. Again, this
25 discusses information on the El Mujahedin
Detachment.
1 Towards the bottom of this document,
if we could please pull the
2
English down a little, what you can see is this: Another intercepted
3
report from the El Mujahedin Detachment, the 16th of September,
1995. I
4
believe I said that, Your Honour.
5
JUDGE MOLOTO: You said so, but
the interpreter said "1998."
6
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
In English, it's the
7
following page. This is about an
intercepted report by the detachment's
8
Emir. This is about the Bedr Al
Bosna, it's the battle of Vozuca, the
9
liberation of Vozuca.
10 And now I want the witness to look
at page 2 of the Bosnian and
11 page 4 of the English. We can show the Bosnian in such a way as to
see
12 the bottom half of the page. Oh, that's fine.
13 Q.
Please, Witness, focus your attention on the part that says: "New
14 territory has been taken ..."
15 That is the second-to-last
paragraph. In the English, it starts
16 with the following words: "We have taken new territories
..." It's just
17 that one portion.
18 Do you agree that it reads:
19 "The Mujahedin have gained
ground and entered a group of Serbian
20 villages.
After the killing, they took 60 prisoners."
21 Please keep this in mind as we
proceed. Do you agree that it says
22 here "the Mujahedin," which is
not necessarily the same thing as "the
23 Mujahedin Detachment"; right?
24 A.
Yes, that's right.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, I will need to go back
1 to
this. It has not been interpreted
properly.
2
Q. What I asked the witness is
this, and I will try to say this
3
slowly. I asked the witness
this: Do you agree that what the
document
4
says is this: The Mujahidi [as
interpreted] have gained ground and
5
entered a group of Serbian villages or Serb villages, and do you agree
6
here that -- that what we discussed yesterday, Mujahidi and Mujahedin
7
"odred" is not the same thing, is it?
8
A. Of course it's not the same
thing. We concluded that yesterday,
9
didn't we?
10 Q.
"Mujahidi" is a general term for a fighter; right?
11 A.
Yes, that's right.
12 Q.
In the English version, it reads "the Mujahedin," which is
13 certainly not what the Bosnian says. I was waiting until we had a witness
14 here who could clarify that for our
benefit. Therefore, Witness, once
15 again, the word "Mujahidi" and
"Mujahedin," in the sense of the Mujahedin
16 Detachment, is not the same, is it?
17 A.
No, it's not the same.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All
right. Can we please show page
19 2 of the document now. In the English, this is also the next page. Page
20 5 in the English.
21 Q.
Witness, can you please focus on this portion of the document
22 which is just above the list of names. It is clear that this report is on
23 its way; you agree, right? And the report is about Mujahidi, the
24 fighters.
And then look at the paragraph just above the names. It reads:
25 "The Bosnian Army also took
part in this operation under the
1
command of the El Mujahedin Detachment."
2
And then it goes on to say:
"Victory, victims," and then a list
3 of
victims or casualties. And do you agree
-- well, please have a look.
4
A. I can see that.
5
Q. Do you agree with me that in
actual fact, the person who wrote
6
this report makes a clear distinction when describing the Mujahidi, the
7
fighters on the one hand, and the El Mujahedin Detachment, on the other
8
hand, which is the very first reference to it in this report?
9
A. Yes, that seems to be the
clear inference, based on this letter.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can
we go back once more to the
11 previous page, Your Honours, please, in
both the English and the Bosnian.
12 Again have a look. This is a general description of the course
of
13 the battle.
The Mujahidi, the fighters, are advancing. That's what it
14 says.
15 Q.
Would that be your conclusion?
This portion is not specifically
16 about the El Mujahedin Detachment, is it?
17 A.
That's right. This could be in reference
to any other army unit
18 or, indeed, any other fighters who were
involved.
19 Q.
Thank you. On page 2 of this
document, you just read what the
20 author says. The Bosnian Army was involved under the
Command of the
21 detachment.
It is clear that whoever asked this report --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the
question.
23 May counsel please repeat the question.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My
apologies.
25 Q.
Whoever authored this report, when he wrote that the El Mujahedin
1
Detachment -- that in the action the BH Army was involved under the
2
command of the detachment, therefore it is clear that, therefore, the
3
author of the report did not believe that the army was in command of
this
4
action; right?
5
A. That is correct. The units that took part in the area of
6
responsibility of the 35th Division, their members were all under the
7
command of the El Mujahedin Detachment in that operation.
8
Q. And not the other way around,
then?
9
A. That's right, not the other
way around.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For a
minute, can we go back to this
11 report, please.
12 Q.
Once again, did the El Mujahedin Detachment capture those 61
13 prisoners?
Would you accept that this was proof that these were arrested
14 or captured by the El Mujahedin, that the
prisoners of war were captured
15 by El Mujahedin?
16 A.
Regardless of what it says in this report and what it specifically
17 refers to, the detachment absolutely did
not arrest or capture more than
18 six detainees in that operation.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The
witness said "15", not "six."
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 15.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q.
You said "not more."
Can you come close to the --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you say "the detachment,"
do you mean the
24 El Mujahedin Detachment that captured 15?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That
is correct. Whenever I say
1
"detachment," I mean the El Mujahedin Detachment. Next time, I will try
2 not
to leave out "El Mujahedin."
3
MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q.
Please, Witness, the Prosecutor -- now I'm going to move to
5
something -- something else. I
just want to ask you, before that, about
6
this, what you have just said last, please.
7
That day, outside the El Mujahedin Detachment, there were many
8
Arabs who were fighting; is that correct?
9
A. That is correct. I met a group of some 30 of them, and I heard
10 that the whole of Buzuber's [as
interpreted] group was present in the
11 field, allegedly over 200 men.
12 Q.
Just to clarify for the transcript, you're talking about Abu
13 Zubeir's group? The witness is talking about Abu Zubeir's
group.
14 Did you ever have information about
those prisoners of war before
15 you -- that this event actually did take
place before you spoke with the
16 OTP?
17 A.
Just like I already said in my statement, I had heard about a
18 report that I believe the 2nd Battalion of
the 328th Brigade sent
19 requesting that they be paid compensation,
funds for the prisoners. At
20 that time, there was a practice that units
were rewarded for captured or
21 killed members of enemy forces and also for
the capture of equipment,
22 materiel and the like.
23 Q.
Well, let's just clarify that.
Did anyone from the Bosnian Army
24 Army, or on behalf of the army, or members
of the army, asked around the
25 members of the detachment, of those -- for
those prisoners? Did the
1
detachment capture prisoners?
2
A. At the time, nobody was
asking anything about some group of some
3 60
detainees, not in that time period during those days or later.
4
Q. Well, at least not to your
knowledge?
5
A. I don't know about it, but I
would have to know if something like
6
that happened.
7
Q. What I'm interested is: How did you find out about that report of
8 the
328th Brigade?
9
A. I heard -- I didn't see that
statement, but -- that report, but I
10 did see them asking for that compensation. Well, that was a little bit
11 funny or cute, as far as we were concerned,
but we didn't really take that
12 seriously.
13 Q.
You didn't take it seriously because you did not have information
14 that this capture had taken place?
15 A.
Well, that capture did not take place.
16 Q.
It did not take place on the part of the El Mujahedin Detachment,
17 at least; is that correct?
18 A.
Yes, that's correct. Especially
what did not happen was that
19 these prisoners were seized from some other
unit.
20 Q.
All right. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed you a document, MFI
21 832, that had to do with the issuance of
permission to go abroad, and in
22 relation to that I would like to ask
you: It's correct, isn't it, that
23 the detachment, El Mujahedin itself, had
arranged and paid for that; that
24 is correct?
25 A. Yes, that's right. That was completely arranged by the El
1
Mujahedin Detachment.
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, if we can move into
5
closed session once again, and I apologise again. Perhaps this sentence
6 can
be redacted from the transcript, because it can also be used to
7
identify.
8
JUDGE MOLOTO: May lines 15 and 16
of page 57 be redacted, please,
9 and
may the Chamber please move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
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4
5
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7
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9
10
11 Pages 5723-5725 redacted. Private session
12
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25
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20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 [Open session]
1
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours,
we're now in open session.
2
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3
MR. MUNDIS:
4
Q. PW-9, can you just briefly
clarify for us the relationship between
5 the
Emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment and its military commander, in
6
terms of their responsibilities and duties and functions?
7
A. The Commander of the El
Mujahedin Detachment, Abu Maali, was
8
responsible for the whole detachment and for everything that happened in
9 the
detachment. This implies both his
Assistant for military affairs and
10 his other assistants, such as assistants
for the Press Centre of the
11 detachment, for religious instruction of
the detachment, for the motorised
12 unit, the servicing, everything that was a
part of the El Mujahedin
13 Detachment.
The deputy -- or assistant commander for military affairs was
14 responsible for the units in the front, for
preparation of operations, for
15 military training, for procurement of
equipment and materiel that had to
16 do with the army, and so on.
17 Q.
And, sir, when you refer to the assistant commander for military
18 affairs, to whom are you referring?
19 A.
I am thinking of Muatez Al Masri, who stayed at that function
20 until he was killed on the 22nd of September,
1995.
21 Q.
PW-9, in your written statement, there are a number of paragraphs
22 that talk about various meetings that you
attended with Muatez and with
23 other senior commanders of ABiH units. Do you remember those meetings
24 that you've discussed in your statement?
25 A. Yes, I remember, and I remember the meetings.
1
Q. Can you recall, sir,
approximately how many such meetings you
2
personally attended that were attended also by Muatez and senior ABiH
3 commanders?
4
A. There were between seven to
ten meetings, for sure.
5
Q. And, sir, what was the time
period of these seven to ten meetings?
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. I think it will be
17 prudent to redact line 25 of page 63, maybe
that whole answer.
18 May we then move into private
session also.
19 [Private session]
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 5729-5735 redacted. Private session
12
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22
23
24
25
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR:
Your Honours, we're now in open session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. MUNDIS:
16 Q.
PW-9, I now want to turn now to a different topic.
17 I believe earlier this morning, in
response to a question by my
18 colleague Madam Vidovic, you told us that
there were no more than 15
19 prisoners of war taken by the detachment
during the course of the war.
20 Did I understand you correctly?
21 A.
No, you didn't. The 15 prisoners
were just in the last operation
22 performed by the El Mujahedin Detachment on
the 10th of September, 1995.
23 Q.
Okay. Well, when you say -- okay,
you've clarified that.
24 Let me ask you this, sir, because
in paragraph 256 of your
25 statement, you make reference to around 25 POWs had been taken, and I'm
wondering if you recall that and if you can tell us which operation you
2
were referring to in that paragraph.
3
A. I remember that. That was the overall number of prisoners that
we
4
took in the Vozuca theatre of war.
5
In the first operation, there were no prisoners. In the second
6 and
third, a total of about 25 prisoners were taken.
7
MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir. I think I just have one last topic
8
that I would like to cover with you, and my learned colleague was
9 discussing this with you immediately before the last break. (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 Q.
And you told us, sir, as reflected on lines 15 to 23 of page 58 --
12 I think we do need to go into private
session, Your Honours. I think this
13 was covered in private session, so I would
ask that, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private
session.
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18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Judge.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
So, Witness, I wanted to ask you
22 to tell us something about Dzemat. You've talked to us about this.
23 First of all, I would like you to
tell me, if I understood you
24 correctly, that the Dzemat was linked to
the El Mujahed Detachment and
25 that the Mujahedin from other groups were not part of that group, other
1
Arabs; is that correct?
2
A. If your question is about
other Arabs who were involved in the
3
fighting in
4
JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Thank you
5
very much.
6
So regarding all the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment, were
7
they all part of the Dzemat?
8
A. Yes.
9
JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One more thing.
10 Did you know, personally, each
member of the El Mujahedin
11 Detachment?
12 A.
No, not each of them.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
Thank you. And one more question
14 regarding passports and the problems.
15 When it came to issuing passports,
when El Mujahedin had to go to
16 a foreign country for medical treatment, do
you know, how were they able
17 to come into Bosnia and Herzegovina without
having obtained previously a
18 permit to leave the country? Was there a procedure, for instance, for
19 these people to be able to come back after
obtaining -- after having had
20 their medical treatment? What was the procedure in place for them to
come
21 back?
22 A.
There was no procedure. Those
people were citizens of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. They spent some time abroad and then they
returned. I'm not
24 quite certain -- or perhaps you may have
misunderstood what I was saying
25 earlier on.
I'm not really sure what your question is about, exactly.
1
JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So then let me clarify before I
2 put
the next question to you.
3
Is it only that citizens of
4 of
the army went to a foreign country for medical treatment or would other
5
members also go to a foreign country for medical treatment, combatants
who
6
were foreigners within the detachment?
7
A. I don't know about members of
any of the other army units. As for
8 the
El Mujahedin Detachment, both the ethnic Bosnians and the foreigners
9 who
were part of the detachment went abroad for treatment. Once they had
10 been treated, they, as a rule, returned to
the detachment.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
Very well. So foreigners, how
12 were they able to come back to Bosnia if
they would leave Bosnia without a
13 prior authorisation or permit? Was there a procedure in place for these
14 people to come back or was there a
procedure through which they had to go
15 before they leave Bosnia?
16 A.
As far as I know, there was no procedure to leave or to return.
17 They required no special approval to return
because, in the first place,
18 they required no special approval to
leave. As foreigners, they were no
19 military conscripts in Bosnia itself. And you have to keep in mind the
20 fact that
21 track of all of these things.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So
borders of
23 during the war and they were open to all
foreigners?
24 A. As
far as I know, they were open after the signing of the
25 Washington Agreement, open to all
foreigners. I do not know of any
1
restrictions that were placed.
2
JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And how about before the
3 Washington
Agreement; were there any restrictions?
4
A. Prior to the Washington
Agreement, for the most part, the BH Army
5
forces, or should I say the forces loyal to the Sarajevo government,
were
6 not
in control of the borders of
7
JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Another thing. You talked to us
8
about a separate department that would have functioned -- and of course
I
9
will ask you to clarify this, if I understood you correctly, so
therefore
10 within the detachment there was a
department to greet the newly arrivals,
11 the Arabs who would come, and you called it
"The Command of the Arabs,"
12 the Arabs' Command. Would you be able to clarify this for us,
please?
13 What exactly were you referring to when you
mentioned this department or
14 service?
15 A.
That's right. Within the
detachment itself, there was a special
16 section for admission of foreigners. At first, Abu Muaz Kuwaiti headed
17 that section. They also called him the Emir of the
Arabs. Whenever a
18 fresh foreigner turned up in the
detachment, this section would interview
19 the person, they would take his personal
documents, they would run certain
20 checks and pass him along to be trained for
service in the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment, whenever that was needed, and
so on and so forth.
22 So between this section and the
Personnel Section of the Corps,
23 there was absolutely no link, no exchange
of information or documents.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
Now, I would like you to tell us
25 something else about the special section
for admission of foreigners. You
1
talked to us about the structure, but this special section, is that the
2
section that Madam Vidovic was referring to when she was talking to --
of
3 a
sort of a security organ of the detachment?
4
A. No, that's not the same
organ. The security organ was a
different
5
organ within the El Mujahedin Detachment.
6
JUDGE LATTANZI:
[Interpretation] So unfortunately I need to put
7 one
more question to you.
8
Since we've heard in this trial that the detachment did not have
9 its
own security organ, this type of security organ, what is it exactly?
10 Could you please clarify this for us?
11 A.
I said that this was the Security Service. The Security Service
12 was responsible for the security of the
Vatrostalna barracks, as well as
13 the discipline of Bosniaks in the El
Mujahedin Detachment. The service
14 was headed by Ezher Beganovic.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation]
And this Security Service was to
16 contact war prisoners; was that part of
their function?
17 A.
The responsibility for the prisoners of war lay with Muatez, as
18 assistant commander for military affairs,
and whoever he personally
19 entrusted to carry -- as to who he
personally entrusted to carry out
20 interviews with the prisoners of war is
something that I don't know.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank
you.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
23 PW-9, I also have some questions
for you in relation to your
24 testimonies over these past days.
25 If we just stick to the issue which
was raised most recently by
1
Judge Lattanzi about the registration of incoming new foreigners to your
2
detachment, my question is: Do
you know how these individuals came to
3
Bosnia?
4
A. From what I understood and
learned in conversations with some who
5 did
come, their arrival was privately arranged without any particular
6
organisation involved.
7
JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you talking
about a local Bosnian organisation
8 or
organisations in their homelands?
9
A. I don't think there was any
organisation by the El Mujahedin
10 Detachment, and I'm not aware that any
other organisation got them
11 together and sent them to Bosnia in an
organised fashion or anything like
12 that.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see.
But it couldn't be a coincidence that
14 suddenly a whole number of fighters from
Arab countries and other
15 countries would suddenly turn up in Bosnia
to assist their Muslim brothers
16 in the war.
I mean, there must have been some sort of organisation, some
17 sort of coordination of all of this. Do you know, from your friends in
18 the El Mujahedin Detachment, whether they
were invited by the leadership
19 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
or were they offered by other
20 organisations in the
21 A.
You must know that not all Arabs came to Bosnia together. They
22 would come from the beginning of the war,
from 1992, continuously until
23 the end of 1995. For the most part, they would come
individually or in
24 small groups of two, three, or five
persons. I'm aware that the Arabs
25 were encouraged to come and help in Bosnia,
just like this was in the
1
Milano Institute, whose director and found was Sheik Enver El Saban, but
2 I'm
not aware that anybody sent persons to Bosnia in an organised fashion.
3
JUDGE HARHOFF: The reason I'm
asking, of course, is that for any
4
state, including the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are
5
national interests associated with foreigners coming into the territory,
6 and
so my question to you is if you know that these people who came to
7
assist in the war effort came with the understanding or upon the
8
invitation of the
9
A. Today, we talked about the
farewell ceremony of the El Mujahedin
10 Detachment, and I recollect that at that
ceremony, Abu Maali briefly said
11 why the Mujahids came to
12 said they came having seen, thinking of the
media, images of the suffering
13 of the Muslim people in
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just to conclude this point, I want to be
sure
15 that
I have understood you correctly, in that to your knowledge, there was
16 no official involvement of the Government
of the
17
18 of fighters from abroad; is that correct?
19 A.
I'm quite sure that they were absolutely not included in this or
20 involved in this.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
22 Now, I have a series of questions
relating to the issue of the -
23 what shall I call it - the cooperation or
coordination between the El
24 Mujahedin Detachment and the Army of
25 this series of questions by referring to
the, what should I say, the
1
unfortunate speech which we heard on the television clip -- on the video
2
clip, sorry, where General Delic, if indeed it was him, and I leave that
3
open, but the suggestion that was made was that the El Mujahedin
4
Detachment was -- and I think the words came "was always a part of
the
5
army in
6
Now, regardless of whether this speech was authentic or not, I
7
would like you to give me your opinion of exactly that issue. Was the El
8 Mujahedin Detachment a part of the ABiH?
9
A. We saw here the order
instructing the formation of the El
10 Mujahedin Detachment on
11 mean that the detachment was an integral
part of the army. However, the El
12 Mujahedin Detachment never functioned like
other units that were part of
13 the Army of
14 I've already spoken a number of
times about the relationship of
15 the detachment command towards let's call
them "superior command,"
16 regardless of whether or we're talking
about division, operative group, or
17 corps commands. There are also some other indications that
could point to
18 this.
For example, members of the El Mujahedin Detachment never wore
19 insignia of the Army of
20 Detachment never had any flags flying of
the Army of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina in any of its barracks. Ranking officers, whom we also
22 mentioned during my testimony, never
actually wore their rank insignia,
23 which was contrary to army regulations.
24 So it can be said that the
detachment was de facto another army or
25 a different army.
1
JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, that is the
very core of this trial.
2
Now, just to revert you to your observation that the El Mujahedin
3
Detachment never bore insignia and never flew any of the flags and so
on,
4 I
have noticed that as well, but I also saw on one of the documents, I
5
think on the first day of your testimony, that a stamp was applied by
the
6 El
Mujahid Detachment, and I think you referred yourself to the El Mujahid
7
Detachment being a unit, and a four-digit number, I can't remember the
8
digits, but that seemed to me to be a formal indication of the El
Mujahid
9
Detachment being a part of the ABiH.
10 A.
Yes, that is so. Formally, the
detachment was an integral part of
11 the army.
We've already said that in relation to the order on the
12 formation of the El Mujahedin
Detachment. The stamp had to be used for
13 documents that, in particular, had to do
with the Bosnian members of the
14 El Mujahedin Detachment and the resolution
of their status as members of
15 the army.
None of us or of the detachment command wanted the Bosnian
16 members of the detachment, as military
conscript did not want them to be
17 left off the register of Bosnian Army
members.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: In your statement, paragraph 32, and I would
ask
19 the Registrar to assist us in bringing up
paragraph 32 of the statement,
20 if possible --
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't think it is necessary with private
23 session.
No, it's not, so you can just go ahead. It's not necessary.
24 My question relates to the same
aspect of the relations between
25 the two armed forces here.
1
You say, in paragraph 32, that the El Mujahedin Detachment was a
2
part of the ABiH and it was subordinated to the 3rd Corps. You can read
3 for
yourself when you find it.
4
A. Yes, I said that, and it says
in my statement that this was
5
formally that way. Formally, in
our language, you could interpret as
6
meaning de jure, but in essence it operated quite differently from the
way
7
that a unit should operate in relation to its superior command.
8
JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, PW-9, thank
you very much, but we are
9
looking to find out what were, then, these differences, and what was the
10 importance or the implications of these
differences when it comes to the
11 responsibility for crimes possibly
committed during the armed operations?
12 A.
I can say with certainty that there were no crimes and that this
13 is superfluous, but it's up to the Court to
establish what the essence of
14 these events was.
15 I apologise. Let me just say that there were no crimes on
the
16 part of the members of the El Mujahedin
Detachment.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, that question is for this Trial Chamber
to
18 determine.
But let us just for the example, I'm not saying that there
19 were crimes committed or that there were
not crimes committed, leave this
20 question aside, but answer me to my
question of: Who would be responsible
21 if, hypothetically, a war crime was
committed by someone who was a member
22 of the El Mujahid Detachment?
23 This is, of course, a question
which has a very legal bearing, and
24 so if you cannot answer it, then please do
not try to answer it. It's
25 only if you know, through your position in
the El Mujahid Detachment, that
1
perhaps you had discussed these things in advance and that you had an
2
answer ready to the question. But
if you don't know, then please do not
3 try
to answer my question.
4
A. First of all, the
perpetrator, himself, would be responsible, then
5 his
immediate superior in the El Mujahedin Detachment, then Muatez as the
6
military commander, and then --
7
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter
did not hear the name --
8
A. As the Commander of the El
Mujahedin Detachment.
9
JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, the
interpreter didn't hear the last part of
10 your sentence. "Then Muatez as the military
commander," and then?
11 A.
And ultimately Abu Maali as the Commander of the El Mujahedin
12 Detachment.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: And how would the El Mujahid Detachment deal
with
14 these responsibilities? Would the Shura decide or would you -- I
mean,
15 how?
What would the procedure be for dealing with the commission of war
16 crimes?
17 A.
For such a serious matter, probably the Shura would deal with it,
18 would discuss it. As to what would happen, that is something
that I
19 cannot say.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Suppose the hypothetical crime of which we
are now
21 talking turned out to be committed by a
Bosniak, that is to say, someone
22 who was also a citizen of the Republic of
Bosnia and Herzegovina, would
23 that person be tried before a Bosnian court
or a military court in Bosnia?
24 A.
As a member of the detachment, first the Shura would decide his
25 fate, what they would do, would they hand
him over further for trial, or
1
whether they would, themselves, deal with the matter.
2
JUDGE HARHOFF: PW-9, I realise
that this is highly speculative,
3 so
unless you are certain about your answers, then don't make those
4
answers. I would rather you would
say then that you don't know if you
5
don't know. But you raised the
issue of handing over a Bosniak for trial
6
before a Bosnian court, being military or civil court, and we have
7
assumed, just for the example, that the perpetrator was a Bosniak and
not
8 a
foreigner, just to make the example easier.
And I understood you to say
9
that the Shura would then decide whether they would prosecute him on
their
10 own or hand him over for trial before a
civil or a military Bosnian court.
11 My question to you is: Would this, in fact, be an option, I mean
12 the handing him over to prosecution before
Bosnian institutions?
13 A.
At the time, I believe that the chances for that would be slight.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't think we should pursue this matter
any
15 further, but I thank you for your answers
to this line of questions.
16 Let me then move on to a third line
of questions that I had in
17 relation to your testimony, and that
concerns the prisoners of war.
18 If I heard you correctly, you said
that altogether, during your
19 time in service for the El Mujahedin
Detachment, some 25 prisoners of war
20 were seized, and 15 of them were seized at
the last operation, the Vozuca
21 operation.
My question to you, in relation to these prisoners of war that
22 were taken by the El Mujahedin Detachment,
is: What did you do with them?
23 A.
These prisoners were handed over to the Military Police of the 3rd
24 Corps of the Army of Bosnia and
Herzegovina.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did the El Mujahid Detachment have a
detention
1
facility where they would be able to keep prisoners for shorter or
longer
2
times?
3
A. I'm aware that the prisoners
were kept or held briefly in the camp
4 of
the El Mujahedin Detachment 13 kilometres away.
That's where they were
5
interviewed. I don't know who did
the interviewing, but I know some
6
information that was received from the interviews with those prisoners.
7
JUDGE HARHOFF: PW-9, I realise
that the time has gone, so I will
8
defer to the President for his decision as to what we do now. I must say
9 I
do have more questions to put to you, so -- but I'll defer to the
10 President.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
12 We would like you to spend your
weekend at home, and for that
13 reason I would like to ask if it is
possible, given the fact that the
14 court is available after lunch, can we sit
this afternoon to finish this
15 witness?
16 Everybody's nodding. I would like to see in the dark window there
17 if everybody is also nodding there.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It seems as if Judge Lattanzi would not be
able to,
20 but we can sit 15 bis if it's agreeable by
the rest of the people. Okay.
21 [Trial Chamber
confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised that the interpreters might
perhaps
23 need to check before they can answer, and I
see one head is nodding from
24 the interpreters. And the suggestion is that maybe we could
start at
25 3.00, 3.00 to 4.30. Maybe in one session, we should be able to do
it, and
1
that will give the interpreters an opportunity to check, and maybe they
2 can
advise the Registrar if they're available and we can sit at 3.00. Is
3
that okay?
4
THE INTERPRETER: We need to
check, Your Honours, because in that
5
case we might need to have a new team of interpreters.
6
JUDGE MOLOTO: And then once you
have checked, you can then advise
7 the
Registrar, who will tell us?
8
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your
Honour.
9
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very
much.
10 Based on that hope, we'll break,
take a break, and come back at
11 3.00.
12 Thank you. Court adjourned.
13 --- Recess taken at
1.50 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at
2.25 p.m.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Thank you to the interpreters for
accommodating us.
17 Judge.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
19 PW-9, we were in the series of questions
relating to the prisoners
20 of war, and you told us that at the
Kamenica 13-kilometre camp, there was
21 limited detention facilities to keep
prisoners there for a short period of
22 time, and you also told us that some of the
prisoners were actually held
23 there for some time and that they were
questioned by some of the officers
24 of the El Mujahid Detachment.
25 PW-9, did you ever visit the
Kamenica camp, and did you see the
1 detention
facilities for yourself?
2
A. I went there many times.
3
JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you see
the detention?
4
A. Yes, I did.
5
JUDGE HARHOFF: Were there any
prisoners kept in the detention
6
when you went to see it?
7
A. I was there once when there
was some prisoners there as well. They
8 had
just been taken for a bath.
9
JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you recall when
that was and how many prisoners
10 there were?
11 A.
That was after the second operation that the detachment performed.
12 Late July.
There were about ten prisoners there, give or take a prisoner
13 or two.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were you able to determine their state of
health,
15 just superficially, I mean? I know that you're not a doctor, but did they
16 look to you to be in good health?
17 A.
They looked all right. They were
all able to walk unassisted to
18 the place where they were given a
bath. There was no one who was being
19 carried on a stretcher or anything like
that.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: You told us that they were interviewed by
officers
21 of the -- or members of the El Mujahid
Detachment. Do you know if the
22 information gathered by the El Mujahid
Detachment was shared with the 3rd
23 Corps?
24 A.
I don't know if this was shared with the 3rd Corps Command.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the ICRC, the International
1
Committee of the Red Cross, was given access to the area?
2 A.
No, they had no access. I wasn't
aware of any requests that the
3 Red
Cross had made to come and visit.
4
JUDGE HARHOFF: And these
prisoners, you told us they were then
5
handed over to the Zenica Prison.
Do you know how that was arranged and
6
after how long the time of detention?
7
A. At the time, I saw documents
listing the names of the prisoners
8 and
the signatures of the military police members who took over, as well
9 as
the signatures of those who had handed over the soldiers. However, the
10 hand-over procedure itself was not
something that I witnessed, and I'm not
11 familiar with any details of the hand-over.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the 3rd Corps ever made any
13 requests to the El Mujahid Detachment to
get access to the prisoners?
14 A.
I don't know.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
Let's move on to my next series of
16 questions, which relate to your knowledge
of the other foreign group of
17 fighters -- groups of fighters in the
territory of the Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And after that, Witness, I only have a few
questions
19 relating to the Geneva Conventions, but
let's first look at your knowledge
20 of the other groups of foreign fighters.
21 You have left us with the
impression that you had absolutely no
22 contact with them, you did not coordinate
any combat actions with them,
23 you didn't know how many there were, but
since you have introduced to us
24 the concept of the Dzemat, my question
would be if, at the level of the
25 Dzemat, there would be some sort of contact
or exchange of information or
1
coordination between the El Mujahid Detachment and the other groups of
2
foreign fighters in
3
A. I was not aware of any
contacts like that.
4
JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you happen to
know how these other groups
5
were - how should I say - were arranging their presence in the Republic
of
6
Bosnia and Herzegovina with the government authorities or with the Army
of
7 the
ABiH?
8
A. I don't know how they came to
Bosnia. I don't think they were
9
really interested in resolving any of their own issues with the
10 authorities, the government bodies of the
Republic of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina, at all.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you have a chance to elicit from them
13 information about how they had arranged
their presence in Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina? The information that I'm looking for, if you
have it, is
15 whether you knew or heard that they had
arranged their presence on more or
16 less the same terms as the El Mujahid
Detachment had arranged its
17 existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Were they -- in other words, were they
18 there on the same terms as the El Mujahid
Detachment? Do you know? If
19 you don't, then just tell us that you
don't.
20 A.
I don't know.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
22 My last series of questions goes to
the compliance with the
23 rules -- with the international rules of
the laws of the war, and I'm
24 curious to know if the members of the El
Mujahid Detachment were informed
25 about the Geneva Conventions and, if so, if
they were required to comply
1
with the norms of the Geneva Conventions during their combat operations.
2
A. Members of the detachment
were not informed about the Geneva
3
Conventions. They had orders from
their superior, Muatez, to the effect
4 that
no one was to touch the prisoners. The
prisoners were, under no
5
conditions, to be touched or killed.
6
In the actual unit where the prisoners were being held, there were
7
guards around the clock and no one was allowed access to the prisoners.
8
JUDGE HARHOFF: If the Geneva
Conventions were not being suggested
9 to
the members of the El Mujahid Detachment during combat operations as
10 norms governing the hostilities, then what
other norms would apply to the
11 El
Mujahid members when in combat?
12 What I'm asking about is, of
course, the Geneva Conventions do not
13 only relate to prisoners of war, they also
have a number of rules
14 governing combat, and my question is: If the rules in the
15 Conventions did not apply because they were
not imposed on the members,
16 then what other rules applied, or were
there any rules?
17 A.
I must say I'm not privy with the detail of the Geneva Conventions
18 and the rules that stem from the
Conventions. As for the rules that the
19 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment
complied with, those were rules
20 that they were taught during their training
at the El Mujahedin Detachment
21 Training Centre, as well as instructions they
received from their
22 superiors.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: And can you give us an outline of what those
other
24 rules were; for instance, relating to
killing of enemies during combat?
25 A.
As I pointed out in my statement, the El Mujahedin Detachment had
1
such rules that the most important thing was the objective of an
operation
2
itself, taking certain features or taking them back from the enemy. The
3
objective of an operation was neither to kill nor to capture an enemy
4
soldier. What happened during
operations, of course, was the fact of the
5
battle. Many enemy soldiers were
killed. There were no special rules
6
governing that sort of thing.
7
JUDGE HARHOFF: You also told us
about the decapitation or
8
beheading of enemy soldiers. I
think you told us that that would have
9
happened after they had been killed.
Is that correct?
10 A.
Yes, that's true.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the purpose of this? Why would you
12 decapitate a killed enemy soldier and
display his head among the civilian
13 populations?
14 A.
The purpose in those situations was certainly not to display these
15 heads to the civilians there. They happened to see them simply because
16 they lived in the same villages where
members of the El Mujahedin
17 Detachment were staying too. The purpose of the act of beheading itself
18 was to additionally intimidate the enemy.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, sir, you told us that at least in two
20 instances, dead enemy soldiers were
decapitated on the battlefield and
21 their heads were brought to the
22 civilian population there.
23 A.
I don't know how I phrased that.
I didn't mean to say that they
24 were displayed to the civilian
population. Those people who were living
25 there just saw the heads. They were civilians living there. There were
1
also members of the El Mujahedin Detachment staying in homes in those
2
villages. It's not that these
heads were deliberately displayed to the
3
civilians living there.
4
JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very
much.
5
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
6
If I may just ask a few questions.
7
Are you able to tell what the total number of soldiers there were
8 in
the El Mujahedin Detachment?
9
A. From the day I joined, the
number was on a steady increase.
10 Towards the end of the war, the El
Mujahedin Detachment numbered about
11 1.000 members.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know about what number they numbered
when
13 you arrived?
14 A.
At the time, there were about 70 members, between 70 and 80
15 probably.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Today, in your testimony, you mentioned - or
it may
17 be yesterday, I'm not quite sure - that
there were various groups of
18 Afro-Asian origin who were fighting in this
war. My question is: On
19 whose side were they fighting? Do you know or don't you know?
20 A.
They were fighting on the same side as the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment, the side of the BH Army.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you just correct me. Did you say to me,
23 sometime during today, that you did not
know all the members of the El
24 Mujahedin Detachment, personally?
25 A.
That's true, I did say that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible that you could make a mistake,
in
2
terms of your knowledge of the membership of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
3 And
I'm suggesting that you could either mistake some of the people who
4
belong to other groups to be members or vice versa?
5
A. Such a thing perhaps could
have happened in a town or village out
6 in
the street, but certainly not at a time when a combat operation was
7
unfolding.
8
If I may just clarify, the reason was we wore special bands to
9
distinguish us during the actual combat operations.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did the armbands look like?
11 A.
Those were armbands or ribbons in two or three different colours,
12 depending on the operation. There was always a combination of colours
13 that was used to distinguish members of the
detachment from members of all
14 the other units, especially to distinguish
us from the enemy.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to make sure I don't repeat
questions
16 that have already been asked by other
Judges.
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23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
Thanks for that clarification.
24 What I do want to find out from you
is that: You said, I think on
25 more than one occasion, that you did not know --
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
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JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I'm advised that we need to go into private
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session, please.
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, how much longer are you going
to be,
16 just to double-check with the interpreters?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your
Honours, I have only ten more
18 minutes. I will be very brief.
19 Q.
Witness, please -- witness, that means that until 1994, it was not
20 possible for a single foreigner to enter
21 not been let through either by the Croatian
or the Serbian authorities, if
22 we leave aside UNPROFOR planes, which is
how you got there; is that
23 correct?
24 A.
Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. And those UNPROFOR flights were something that the Government of
1 the
2
correct?
3 A.
Yes, they didn't have any influence over those flights.
4
Q. Thank you. After the Washington Agreement, so just a
part of the
5
border was again held by the forces of Bosnian Croats and the Republic
of
6
7
forces; am I correct?
8
A. That is correct. Just the southwestern borders, the borders
9
between
10 control of the Bosnian Croats.
11 Q.
So foreigners who had their own passports were able to go in and
12 out without the authorities of
13 information about that? I'm thinking of the regular authorities of
the
14
15 A.
Yes, that is correct. And if I
may add, the time after the
16 signing of the Washington Agreement was the
time when the bulk of foreign
17 nationals joined the detachment.
18 Q.
Thank you. I would just like to
ask you something else briefly.
19 In response to His Honour Judge
Harhoff, in your response and then
20 also elaborating on an answer given to the
Prosecution, you spoke about
21 decisions relating to participation in
attacks and also meetings that had
22 to do with that. You described -- you said -- Your Honours, if
we can now
23 go into closed session for a minute,
please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed
session.
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23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now that we are in open session, can I openly say
1 to
you thank you very much for accommodating us, all of you, and also
2
thank you to the parties for agreeing to sit this afternoon.
3
This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony today, sir.
4
Thank you so much for coming to testify.
You are now excused and you may
5 go
-- you may stand down, and we wish you well in your travel back home.
6
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very
much.
8
I beg your pardon. May we please
move into private session so the
9 witness
may go out.
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3 --- Whereupon the
hearing adjourned at
4 to be reconvened on
Tuesday, the 20th day of
5 November, 2007, at
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