1                          Friday, 16 November 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, everybody.

 7            Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This is

 9    case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11            May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

12    Prosecution.

13            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14            Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15    the courtroom.  For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya Menon, Anna

16    Svensson, and our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18            And for the Defence?

19            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

20    morning to my learned friends from the OTP, to everyone in and around the

21    courtroom.  I'm Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas Robson, representing

22    General Rasim Delic, with legal assistants Lejla Gluhic, Lana Deljkic and

23    Asja Zujo.

24            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

25            Madam Vidovic, before we call you, (redacted)

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3            At the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole

 4    truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 5            I remind you that you are still bound by that declaration. Thank

 6    you very much, and I'm sorry for what I just said.

 7            Madam Vidovic?

 8                          WITNESS:  PW-9 [Realtime transcript read in error

 9    "PW-8"] [Resumed]

10                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                          Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:  [Continued]

12       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  I hope you rested well and we can

13    continue.  Yesterday, we talked about Sheik Enver Saban, and in relation

14    to that, I just want to put one question to you.

15            The Sheik was connected to the activities of the Egyptian

16    Al-Jama'ah, Al-Islamiyah, if I pronounced it correctly; is that correct?

17       A.   Yes, there were some links, I am aware of that, between Sheik

18    Enver and the Egyptian Samat Al-Islamiyah, although I am not sure if that

19    is true or not.

20            JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interrupt, I see that the record

21    states that the name of the witness is PW-8.  I thought it was PW-9.

22    We'll just make sure that we know it's PW-9.

23            You may proceed.  Thank you.

24            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.

25       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Now I'm going to ask you something else. It
 1    has to do with a group of questions put to you in your statement.  It has

 2    to do with discipline in the El Mujahedin Detachment.

 3            When you talked about the El Mujahedin Detachment, you said, in

 4    paragraph 106 of your statement, that the detachment command wanted to

 5    have respect, order and discipline, which meant that they should be

 6    respected by ordinary, regular people and in the environs; is this

 7    correct?

 8       A.   Yes, I did say that in my statement.

 9       Q.   The detachment had camps that were monitored; is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   There were guards, and it was known who was entering and who was

12    exiting the detachment?

13       A.   Correct.

14       Q.   In the detachment, there were rules of conduct?

15       A.   Yes, that is correct.

16       Q.   We saw that the Shura pronounced disciplinary measures and acted

17    as a kind of military tribunal; would you accept that?

18       A.   Yes, the Shura did hand down disciplinary measures, that is

19    correct, although such measures were also passed down by some responsible

20    people in the detachment, not just by the Shura.  There was no military

21    tribunal, as such, within the detachment.

22       Q.   You also said that some responsible people and the Shura passed

23    down disciplinary measures.  This was not done outside the detachment?

24       A.   Yes, this is correct, it was done inside the -- or within the

25    detachment structures only.

 1       Q.   And it was done in accordance to the detachment rules?

 2       A.   Yes, according to detachment rules.

 3       Q.   Would it be correct to say that the Shura and these responsible

 4    people in the detachment did not allow interference in affairs that they

 5    considered to be their own in the detachment, they did not allow anyone

 6    else outside of the detachment to interfere in what they considered to be

 7    their own affairs; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   You said that members of the detachment were trained also in

10    respect of prisoners of war.  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12            Your Honours, I would like to go into private session, please.

13    Thank you.

14            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we move into private session.

15                          [Private session]

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 6                          [Open session]

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 8            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 666.

10       Q.   As you can see, Witness, this is an act of the Security Service

11    Department of the 3rd Corps from the 21st of June, 1995, and again it

12    relates to the events in the El Mujahedin unit.

13            I would now like the witness to look at page 2 of this document.

14    This is page 3 in the English version.  Can we scroll down the English

15    version, please.  Thank you very much.

16            Can we look at the last paragraph?

17            Witness, I'm going to ask you something.  You see a part here

18    that's underlined.  Could you please read that?

19            It says here that the information is that "Nebil Al Misi" [phoen]

20    and someone else had set out to the front lines, and since they did not

21    know the way, they found themselves 15 metres from Chetnik lines and the

22    shooting that ensued, the -- Nebil was hit, but Mustafa did not know

23    whether he was killed after that.  An operation was carried out.  Two

24    Chetniks were killed and two heads were brought."

25            Please --

 1            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, Madam Vidovic.

 2            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3       Q.   Would you agree that from this document, we can see that this

 4    event, relating to the beheading, took place in action, in the course of

 5    an action?

 6       A.   Yes, that is correct.  That is one of the cases that I mentioned,

 7    and I mentioned all these particulars in my statement.  This happened to

 8    happen in my zone of responsibility.  This was on the 29th of May, 1995.

 9    That was when the action was.  I don't know the date that is on the

10    document, but I think that that was the time that it happened. It was

11    shortly after the first action on the Zavidovici front.

12       Q.   So these people were killed in battle, and then the beheading took

13    place; am I correct?

14       A.   Yes, that is correct.

15            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put the document away now.

16            I would like the witness to look at Exhibit 665 now, please.

17       Q.   I would like to draw your attention to the middle of this

18    document, where it says:

19            "During the killing of a member of this unit ..."

20            If you can see that.  Perhaps we can scroll down the English

21    version.

22            This relevant part for us begins with the words:  "When one of the

23    members ..." Do you see that part?  Perhaps it would be the easiest thing

24    if I quoted it.  It says:

25             "When one of the members of the El Mujahedin unit was killed,
 1    they organised a squad of ten fighters who went out in front of the lines

 2    of defence, liquidated a number of Chetniks, slit the throats of two of

 3    them, and carried their heads through the villages along the Krivaja River

 4    valley."

 5            My question to you is:  Do you agree that in this document, this

 6    same event is being described?  Can you please take a look?

 7       A.   Yes, that is correct, the same event is being described.

 8            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We can put this document

 9    away now.

10       Q.   I was thinking of the event that we discussed in connection with

11    the previous document, number 666.  Is that correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   I would now like to draw your attention to paragraph 197 of your

14    statement.  You described another event where it is said that the Arabs

15    from the line brought the head of Momir, a policeman.  Please, can you

16    tell us what you know about this event that has to do with this beheading?

17       A.   This event or incident took place shortly after our second

18    operation on the Vozuca front.  Abu Sabit Masri, who was responsible for a

19    section of the line, led a group to -- into reconnaissance towards the

20    Serbian Army lines, and during this reconnaissance a sabotage attack was

21    carried out on several dugouts on the Serb lines.  And on that occasion,

22    some -- I think three members of the military police were killed. I think

23    it was either the military or the civilian police, I'm not sure anymore,

24    who happened to be on the line of the Army of Republika Srpska. Their

25    heads were cut off and brought to the village of Livade, too.

 1       Q.   So the beheading of Momir, the policeman, in no way can be linked

 2    with the beheading of any prisoner of war; is that correct?

 3       A.   No, it cannot.  I remembered his name.  Their documents, IDs, were

 4    brought, and a diary was found on one of the policeman, too. I think that

 5    they were from Srbac.

 6       Q.   You said, if I understood correctly, that you remembered this

 7    name.  Can you remember this name?

 8       A.   Momir.  I'm talking about Momir.  That's the name I remembered, I

 9    think Momir Mitrovic, something like that.

10            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

11            Your Honours --

12            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did I hear well that the name is Momir Mitrovic?

13            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Well, Witness, did you say "Momir Mitrovic"?

15       A.   Yes, I did.

16            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into

17    private session once again, please.

18            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly.

20                          [Private session]

21  (redacted)

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24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)
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14                          [Open session]

15            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

16            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]  

18       Q.   You will agree with me that the Security Service in the detachment

19    that you described was not an organ of the Security Service of the Army of

20    Bosnia and Herzegovina, hierarchially linked with the higher or superior

21    organs of the Military Security Service of the Division or of the Corps,

22    perhaps?

23       A.   Yes, that is correct.  That is a service formed by the Detachment

24    Command, and it was solely responsible to the Detachment Command.

25       Q.   What Beganovic actually did was to be in charge of the camp

 1    security?

 2       A.   Yes.  That was to take care of the Vatrostalna base that was the

 3    Command of the detachment, and also to take care about the discipline of

 4    the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment who at that time were in

 5    Vatrostalna.

 6       Q.   So he did not gather data for the Corps security organ?

 7       A.   No, not at all, that is correct.

 8       Q.   He did not work according to their instructions, the instructions

 9    of the security organ of the 3rd Corps, according to your knowledge?

10       A.   No, he worked according to Muatez's instructions.

11       Q.   Awad Ajman either did not carry out the duties of a commander, he

12    was a translator, was he not?

13       A.   Yes, Ajman Awad was working as a translator, mostly with Muatez,

14    and he did not have any particular function in the El Mujahedin

15    Detachment.

16       Q.   Witness, thank you.  I'm just going to ask you to pause between

17    question and answer so that the transcript can keep up with my questions

18    and your answers.

19            Now I would like to put some more questions to you that have to do

20    with the existence of some other services within the detachment.

21            In paragraph 148 of your statement, you mentioned the personnel

22    service, and you said that in the course of 1995, it was better organised.

23    Now I would like to put some questions to you so that we can see what kind

24    of service it was.

25            I want to ask you:  The detachment did not have an actual
 1    personnel service that registered all the fighters?

 2       A.   The personnel service did keep a register of the members of the El

 3    Mujahedin Detachment, so I don't know what you're thinking of

 4    specifically.  That was its assignment.

 5       Q.   What I mean is this:  It did not have a service that took

 6    passports from the foreigners, registered them, provided the appropriate

 7    municipal organs with the information or the municipal ministry, provided

 8    them with information about members of the detachment, something that

 9    other army units did?  This is what I was thinking of.  But can you please

10    wait for the question to be recorded.

11       A.   The personnel service in the detachment did not do that.  There

12    was a separate service for newly-arrived Arabs.  That was called "The

13    Command for Arabs," which did something similar to what you are saying

14    now.  They would take their passports, et cetera, but the information was

15    not passed on to the 3rd Corps Command.

16       Q.   Although the 3rd Corps Command insisted on this, did it not?  You

17    know that the 3rd Corps Command insisted on this?

18       A.   Yes, I do know that.  However, they received only information by

19    nicknames, not by the real names of the detachment members.

20       Q.   Fighters did not have personal ID cards or register cards?

21       A.   No, they did not have those in the detachment.

22            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23            Your Honours, at this point I would like to go back briefly into

24    private session again.

25            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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11    Pages 5679-5680 redacted. Private session















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 5                          [Open session]

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 7            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8            Yes, Madam Vidovic.

 9            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

10    Exhibit 591.

11       Q.   Before the document turns up on our screens, in the detachment one

12    knew that the Security Service was harbouring a certain amount of mistrust

13    towards the Command and the detachment and that they were holding them

14    under some sort of treatment; is my understanding correct?

15       A.   Yes, that's correct.

16       Q.   Please look at this document now.  It's a short document produced

17    by the Security Service Department, dated the 22nd of April, 1995.  The

18    heading is:  "List of members of the El Mujahedin unit, hereby requested

19    by."  Have a look, please?

20       A.   Can we zoom in, please?

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in, please.  And I can

22    also -- or we can see better now.

23            The witness is done reading.  Can we bring the English back on our

24    screens, please.  Thank you.

25       Q.   Based on this document, there is an order by the 3rd Corps

 1    commander -- or, rather, the document reads that:

 2              By an order of the 3rd Corps commander, the manpower levels of

 3    the El Mujahedin unit were restricted, and further recruitment of fighters

 4    from abroad and domestically was suspended, at least by the 22nd of April,

 5    1995.

 6            My question about that -- here we are, April 1995.  Did anyone in

 7    the detachment actually know that any further recruitment of any sort of

 8    members, domestic or foreign, to the El Mujahedin Detachment was, in fact,

 9    suspended?

10       A.   Yes, that was a well-known fact.  I, myself, saw the order at the

11    time it was issued.

12       Q.   So was this order complied with?

13       A.   New members were being recruited to the very last day of the

14    detachment existence, so the order was not complied with.

15            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  We can put

16    this document away now.

17       Q.   And now for logistication [as interpreted], logistication of the

18    detachment.

19            During your evidence yesterday, if my understanding was correct,

20    you mentioned that, in logistical terms, the detachment was receiving

21    symbolic assistance from the army.  You described that it had its own

22    logistics, and you mentioned some humanitarian organisations which the

23    detachment had established, itself.

24            Can you tell us briefly how this worked, if you know?

25       A.   As for its logistics, the detachment was left to its own devices,

 1    in a way.  Any support that came from the army was very sporadic and

 2    insufficient, if I may put it that way.  Everything the detachment

 3    required, in terms of food, clothing, weapons and the like, was bought by

 4    using donations that we had secured from abroad in most cases.

 5            Speaking of the humanitarian organisations that I referred to in

 6    my statement, their assistance was used to get certain special items that

 7    couldn't be obtained in Bosnia, so they had to be obtained from abroad,

 8    such as signals equipment and the like.

 9       Q.   In paragraph 72 of your statement, you say that it was Muatez who

10    decided which sort of military equipment would be purchased and which not?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.

12       Q.   In paragraph 143, you say that you obtained vehicles, yourself,

13    for the purposes of the detachment.  Is that right?

14       A.   Yes.  Vehicles were purchased both domestically and abroad.

15       Q.   In paragraph 84, you say that you received some salaries, the

16    amount being 110 [as interpreted] Deutsche mark, but you had no idea where

17    the money had come from; right?  You remember that?

18       A.   Yes, it was 80 Deutsche mark, not 110.

19       Q.   Thank you very much.  I said "100" and the transcript reflects

20    "110," but you say 80.  All right.

21            Can the witness now please be shown Exhibit 782.

22            Witness, this is another document entitled:   "Information

23    produced by the Security Service Administration of the 3rd Corps."  The

24    date is 20th of June, 1995.  Please focus on paragraph 2.  It talks about

25    contact being established between Ebu Meali and Ebu Ejub.  I quote:

 1             "In a conversation, Ebu Meali informs Ebu Ejub that a group of

 2    Bosniaks is coming and to give them a 15-day rest, 100 Deutsche mark, and

 3    three kilograms of meat."

 4            So is it true that funds for salaries were secured by the

 5    detachment, itself, as this document might lead us to conclude?

 6       A.   In addition to the salaries that were paid to the detachment,

 7    sometimes monetary assistance would be granted to certain members of the

 8    detachment, in keeping with what was actually possible and in keeping with

 9    the needs of each individual.

10            Likewise, after every operation, the war booty, in terms of

11    weapons, would be estimated in financial terms, and then this would be

12    divvied up and distributed to whoever had been involved in the operation

13    itself.

14       Q.   All these funds were actually secured by the detachment command,

15    weren't they?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

18            I'm moving on to something different now.  But before I do, I

19    would like us to see a video clip now.  It's the same one that the OTP

20    showed you yesterday.  I have it here as P6199, but actually it's Exhibit

21    A33.

22            Could my learned friends from the OTP please play the video, since

23    their version has subtitles?  Could you please play back to us General

24    Delic's speech?

25                          [Videotape played].

 1            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned friends.

 2       Q.   You testified about this clip yesterday, and you said that the

 3    atmosphere prevailing in this video clip did not reflect the actual

 4    situation when you were there.  First of all, do you agree that this took

 5    place on the 1st of January, 1996, in a certain institution, and where was

 6    that?

 7       A.   Yes, it was a huge hall, a sports hall of the army hall in Zenica.

 8    It's in a neighbourhood known as "Mokusnica" if that means anything to

 9    you.

10       Q.   Does a single shot from this video show this gym hall or sports

11    hall where you say the ceremony actually took place?

12       A.   No, nothing even remotely like what actually happened.

13            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

14            I would like to see the videotape at the point when Mr. Delic

15    speaks and behind him we see sort of a cupboard or a shelf, a bookshelf,

16    something that looks like a bookshelf.

17            May I please see that excerpt, please.

18            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is something that

19    I needed to have clarified.

20            Can you please play again General Delic's speech.

21            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, that's right, I'm only

22    interested in the excerpt when General Delic speaks.  And also in view of

23    what the witness told us yesterday, that is, that the ceremony took place

24    inside and not outside, therefore the scene does not correspond to what he

25    remembered, so I would just like to clarify that point because the

 1    speakers were maybe speaking inside a building and maybe there were some

 2    people outside.  So I would just like to clarify that point.

 3            MR. MUNDIS:  Perhaps, Your Honours, it might take us a moment to

 4    find that actual part of the videotape, and perhaps we can do that and

 5    Mrs. Vidovic can continue, and we can come back to that in a few moments,

 6    once we've identified what we think Your Honour is referring to, just to

 7    save some time.

 8            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, may we

 9    proceed like that?

10            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, no problem.

11            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12       Q.   You said that the event took place at a farewell ceremony in an

13    enclosed space; is that correct?

14       A.   Yes, that is correct, and nobody stood outside.  They were all

15    inside.  Everybody could come inside the hall or they were staying in

16    the -- standing in the corridor or on the stairs in front of the hall, but

17    nobody was standing outside, and nobody outside could hear what was

18    actually going on in the hall.

19       Q.   You saw on the video different scenes of speeches.  You can see

20    the speakers, you can see the mass or the crowd, you can see the Mujahedin

21    with their flag.  Please, were you ever present -- did you see or hear

22    General Delic address the Mujahedin at any occasion anywhere, other than

23    this event that you mentioned?

24       A.   This is the first time that I personally saw General Delic, and I

25    believe that the other members of the detachment had never seen him

 1    before, either, never mind have him address them, except on television.

 2            JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand the answer.  The question was:

 3            "Please, were you ever present -- did you see or hear General

 4    Delic address the Mujahedin at any occasion anywhere, other than this

 5    event that you mentioned?"

 6            Now, I underline those last words.  Now, the answer says:

 7            "This is the first time that I personally saw General Delic ..."

 8            I'm not quite sure which first time is this is.  Now, in court, or

 9    at that location that you're referring to?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This relates to this occasion that I

11    was talking about, January 1st, 1996.

12            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for the

14    clarification.

15            From what I understand, the OTP has found -- please, can you now

16    play this segment that Her Honour Judge Lattanzi asked for.

17       Q.   Witness, now I would like you to look at this scene.  Her Honour,

18    Judge Lattanzi, asked you about that, and I believe that Judge Lattanzi

19    will have more questions to put to you.

20            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Go ahead, Ms. Vidovic.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   Witness, please, you see General Delic here, and you see an

23    enclosed space, and you see a bookcase or a cupboard there.  Does this

24    image correspond to the part of the location where the ceremony took

25    place?

 1       A.   No, this doesn't resemble it at all.  You can see General-- the

 2    general sitting here.  He was actually giving a speech.  There was a

 3    microphone in front of him in the hall itself of the army hall.  There was

 4    quite a large stage.  There were no cupboards or book bookshelves or

 5    cases, anything like that.

 6            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what the witness said

 7    was that he gave the speech standing up, and this was not recorded in the

 8    transcript.

 9       Q.   Is that correct, did I understand you correctly?

10       A.   Yes, that is correct.

11            JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the witness's view of this picture?  Does

12    he say this person is standing or is he still sitting?  And if, whichever

13    position he takes, can he explain why?

14            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Witness, can you explain that?

16       A.   What I can see here is that he is sitting, and that is the

17    position of the body, and the hands are -- or arms are leaning on a desk.

18       Q.   In any case, Witness, please, you saw the speech with your own

19    eyes.  Is this an image -- does this photograph with this cupboard

20    correspond to that image of the stage that you mentioned where this speech

21    was given from?

22       A.   No, this does not resemble the image of that stage, no.

23            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we run the tape a little bit, please?

24                          [Videotape played]

25            JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that still be in the same speech?

 3            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Can you please answer that?

 5       A.   I'm not sure that I understand the question well.

 6            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it still the same speech, the same occasion

 7    where you said he was standing -- or sitting, rather, with his arms on a

 8    desk which I didn't see?  Is it the same occasion, would you say?

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not the same occasion.

10    This is happening in the open.  You can see trees in the background, and

11    this is not how it was at that farewell ceremony.

12            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I don't see trees.  I see lines.  Are they

13    trees or do you know?

14            So is it your testimony, sir, that what we see here is a different

15    occasion from what we saw a few minutes ago?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

17            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18            Madam Vidovic.

19            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam Vidovic, I'm getting confused now.  Are we

20    to understand that neither this picture, nor the former picture where he

21    was sitting, neither of these two pictures were actually taken from the

22    farewell party on 1st January 1996 in Zenica; is that what we are to

23    conclude?

24            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour, neither one.

25    And I just wanted to clarify something in relation to your question to the

 1    witness.

 2       Q.   Witness, please, no image in this video footage corresponds to the

 3    situation in which this other speech was given; is that correct?

 4            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Mundis.

 5            MR. MUNDIS:  I'm happy for the witness to answer the question, and

 6    then I'd like to put some comments on the record, if I may.

 7            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8       A.   Yes, that is correct, no scene.  Yesterday, when we were looking

 9    at the earlier part of the tape, the stage where General Sakib Mahmuljin

10    is speaking, you can see President Izetbegovic standing next to him, and

11    he wasn't present either.  So this does not correspond, absolutely, to

12    what was actually happening then.  No image from the video footage does

13    correspond.

14            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Mundis.

15            MR. MUNDIS:  I'm reluctant to intervene at this point, but I do

16    believe it's necessary in order to avoid any unnecessary confusion.

17            When the Prosecution initially filed its motion on 25 September

18    1997 to add this clip to its exhibit list, our position was quite clear,

19    and it's stated in paragraph 2 of that motion.  I'm not going to indicate

20    what it is.

21            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, yes.

22            MR. MUNDIS:  Our position was quite clear.

23            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Madam Vidovic, sorry, your opposite number

24    stood up while you were asking --

25            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm concerned that

 1    now, with this explanation, of course the Prosecutor will influence the

 2    witness.  I do not want the witness to hear this explanation.  We all know

 3    what it says in the submission, but I think that in this way the

 4    Prosecutor can interfere or influence the answers by the witness.

 5            MR. MUNDIS:  That's precisely why I'm referring to the paragraph

 6    numbers of our written pleading, where the Prosecution's position is quite

 7    clear on this point.  That was all I was going to say, so that we can

 8    avoid any unnecessary confusion regarding what this clip is, and I have

 9    nothing further to say.  And of course I'm not going to say anything that

10    would taint the witness's testimony, but I do refer you back to our

11    initial filing on the 25th of September, 2007, where the Prosecution view

12    was quite clear on this matter.

13            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

14            You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

15            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise, Your

16    Honour.

17            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Maybe we could ask the witness if he knows which

18    occasion this live clip is then from, because it appears as if the footage

19    of General Delic seems to correspond to the written words, the movements

20    of his mouth seem to be those that actually came down in the transcript.

21    So it looks, at least from this clip, as if this is a live recording of

22    General Delic's speech and what we see on the transcript corresponds to

23    what he's actually saying in the video, so the issue is now:  Does the

24    witness know which occasion this was, if it was not on the 1st of January?

25            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 1       Q.   Witness, I asked you earlier if the General addressed the

 2    El Mujahid.  Do you know at all where these images were taken, what

 3    occasion it was?

 4       A.   Well, let me say again that General Delic never addressed members

 5    of the detachment.  As for this footage, I think I know where it comes

 6    from.  I think this is from the ceremonial lineup --

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer?

 8            JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are requested to repeat your answer, sir. The

 9    interpreters didn't hear.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already said and I repeat,

11    General Rasim Delic never addressed the members of the El Mujahedin

12    Detachment except on the occasion on the 1st of January, 1996, in the hall

13    of the army in Zenica.  I believe that this footage is from a ceremonial

14    review of the army in Zenica, which was not attended by members of the

15    El Mujahedin Detachment.

16            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   [No interpretation]

18       A.   This footage was shown several times on Bosnia and Herzegovina

19    Television.

20       Q.   I would just like to repeat the question.  I asked the witness:

21    What was the basis of his testimony regarding to the location of this

22    speech, and the witness then answered that this was shown several times on

23    television.  Is that correct, Witness?

24       A.   Yes, that is correct.  It was shown on Bosnia and Herzegovina

25    Television, and even in the corner of the image you can see that there is

 1    the TV "BiH" logo.

 2            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can focus on the

 3    upper right-hand corner.  I don't know if that's possible.  All right.

 4            I would like to put more questions to you about this footage.

 5                          [Videotape played]

 6            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to put two or three

 7    short questions to you now.

 8       Q.   From what I understood, you did not recognise the voice of General

 9    Delic.  Is that correct?

10       A.   That is correct.  I said that the voice was very like his voice,

11    but I cannot assert that that was actually the voice of General Delic.

12            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What I -- Your Honours, the witness

13    answered that the voice slightly resembles, but here it's entered as "very

14    much resembles."  It's opposite from what the witness said.

15       Q.   Witness, would you please repeat, in relation to the voice, what

16    you said?

17       A.   Yes, that is correct, it resembles the voice of General Delic.

18            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic, thank you very much.

19            Would this be a convenient time?

20            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very well, and I will

21    continue with two or three questions in relation to this after the break.

22            Perhaps I can put two short questions now.

23       Q.   Witness, please, what you said yesterday is that Delic held, on

24    that occasion -- or gave on that occasion an appropriate -- a suitable

25    speech, and then you said, "What I heard on the video did not resemble

 1    that situation."  And based on that, I conclude that you did not recognise

 2    the speech of General Delic in that speech that was played on this video.

 3       A.   Yes, that is correct.

 4       Q.   It was a known fact that the Mujahedin did not like NATO; is that

 5    correct?

 6       A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7       Q.   And it was not an opportunity to mention NATO forces and to

 8    address NATO forces during a farewell address to them; is that correct?

 9       A.   That is correct.  When I listened to this video, this seemed very

10    inappropriate to me for an occasion such as that.

11       Q.   You would remember that he said something like that on that

12    occasion on the 1st of January, 1996; is that correct?

13       A.   I believe that I would have remembered it, because that would

14    grate on one's ears considerably.

15       Q.   You don't remember that, and you also did not hear him talking

16    about command and control in the detachment on that occasion; is that

17    correct?

18       A.   Yes, that is correct, and it seems to me not to make sense like

19    that.  The detachment was already dismantled and most people left Bosnia

20    and Herzegovina within two or three days.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to the

22    Trial Chamber, but I have been asked by Sense, who are broadcasting this

23    hearing, that the public is very interested in listening to this, and this

24    is why I tried to finish a little bit earlier before the actual break, and

25    I apologise.

 1            JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand that last paragraph.

 2            We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.

 3            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't say --

 4                          --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

 5                          --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Vidovic.

 7            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8            I would now like to ask some questions that have to do with the

 9    attitude or the relationship between the El Mujahedin Detachment and the

10    3rd Corps.

11       Q.   Yesterday, in your testimony, the Prosecutor - and also when you

12    were giving the statement and in the preparation for your testimony -

13    showed you many orders from the 3rd Corps that had to do with the El

14    Mujahedin Detachment.  In connection with those orders, I would like to

15    ask you the following, you personally:  In relation to the orders from the

16    Corps did not -- in connection thus with those orders, did not communicate

17    with members of the 3rd Corps; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.  The documents that were shown were documents that I saw for

19    the first time when the Prosecutor showed them to me.

20       Q.   The Prosecutor showed you documents that had to do with joint

21    actions of the detachment and members of the 3rd Corps, and in connection

22    with that, I would like to clarify certain matters.

23            It's not in dispute that the El Mujahedin Detachment fought in

24    actions, including actions in July and September 1995, and some other

25    actions that you mentioned.  However, you would agree with me that the

 1    detachment did not participate in those actions then, when the Corps

 2    ordered it, but when this decision was made by the Shura or the Emir;

 3    would that be a fair conclusion?

 4       A.   The decision about when there would be an action was taken, in

 5    principle, by the staff of the detachment, headed by Muatez; in principle,

 6    of course.  That was the rule.  Those who made the preparations for the

 7    operations would decide when the detachment would be ready for action.

 8       Q.   You have just said -- well, you mentioned preparations.  Am I

 9    correct if I believe that the detachment fought pursuant to the plan

10    drafted by that special unit for preparation and planning or the Emir?

11       A.   Yes, that is correct.  The detachment, itself, planned absolutely

12    everything that had to do with the operation.

13       Q.   We saw some orders where it says, for example, the detachment

14    should take part in an action according to the plan of the 35th Division.

15    When it participated in actions, did the detachment fight pursuant to the

16    division plan or pursuant to its own plan?

17       A.   The detachment executed operations according to its own plans. I

18    believe that the purpose of the action or the plan was to inform other

19    units that the detachment was planning or executing such-and-such an

20    action at such-and-such a sector.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  At this point, I would

22    like you to look at document P1726.

23       Q.   Can you please look at this document.  I would like to say that

24    this is an order by the 3rd Corps Command of the 3rd of April, 1994,

25    ordering the resubordination of units.  I would like you -- and now --

 1    yes, very good.

 2            If we can now please look at paragraph 1.  According to -- this is

 3    the time in which, thus, you were a member of the detachment; is that

 4    correct?  And this order refers to the detachment?

 5       A.   Yes, that is correct.

 6       Q.   Please, would you agree that it says in the document, on the basis

 7    of need to join the units or unify the units, link up the units more

 8    easily, and because of the system of control and command:

 9            "I order the El Mujahedin Detachment ..."

10            And then something:

11            "... SDB to be resubordinated to the 330th Light Brigade in all

12    elements of the control and command."

13            And it seems that in the signature, we have Brigadier Mehmed

14    Alagic.

15            Well, what I want to ask you is the following, please:  Thus, it

16    is ordered here that the El Mujahedin Detachment, in all elements of

17    control and command, on the day of -- I'm going to ask you to remember

18    this date -- 3rd April, 1994, to be resubordinated to all -- according to

19    all elements of command and control to the 330th Light Brigade. Please,

20    it's correct, isn't it, that this resubordination is de facto -- is

21    something that de facto never happened?

22       A.   This is the first time that I am seeing this order.  I am aware

23    that members of the detachment took over a section of the line from the

24    330th Brigade on the Tisa feature, but there was no resubordination of any

25    sort to the Command of the 330th Light Brigade.

 1       Q.   So there was no resubordination that took place.  The detachment

 2    never entered under the command of this brigade, as was ordered?

 3       A.   No, never.

 4            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

 5    given an exhibit number, please.

 6            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, it can, but can we just see the heading of the

 7    document in the English.  And may it please be given an exhibit number.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 845.

 9            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be put away,

11    please.

12            At this point, I would like the witness to look at P1727.

13       Q.   For the transcript, Witness, if we can just look at the beginning

14    of the -- oh, we can see.  This is a document of the 3rd Corps of the 5th

15    of April -- the 3rd Corps Command of the 5th of April, 1994.

16            Can we please look at the place where the signature is.

17            Judging by the document, it seems to be signed by the corp

18    commander, but now I would like to go back to the first page of this

19    document because I want to ask you about a fact.

20            You probably have not seen this order before you said that, but I

21    would like to ask you about the fact that has to do with the El Mujahedin

22    Detachment.  It's quoted in this order.

23            Your Honours, if we can go back to page 1.

24            You can see that on the 5th of April, 1994, the Command of the

25    Corps is issuing an order for the formation of OG-3 North, whose

 1    composition should, among other units, also include the El Mujahedin

 2    Detachment.

 3            This is page 2 in the English, Your Honours, page 2, 2, page 2 of

 4    the English version.

 5            And, Witness, what I would like to ask you is the following:  We

 6    saw earlier just now a document with the date the 3rd of April, 1994, just

 7    two days ordering the resubordination to the 330th Brigade.  That is what

 8    I asked you to remember, if you recall.

 9       A.   Yes, I do.

10       Q.   Now we have a document of the 5th of April, 1994, here ordering

11    the formation of Operations Group North.  That should also include the

12    El Mujahedin Detachment.  It says that the OG North Commander should be

13    Mr. Musinbegovic, Jusuf.

14            What I want to ask you is the following:  It's correct, isn't it,

15    that the El Mujahedin Detachment never joined the organic composition of

16    OG-3 North; is that correct?

17       A.   This document was already shown to me when I was giving my

18    statement to representatives of the OTP.  That was the first time I saw

19    it, and I am not aware that such an order was made under which the

20    El Mujahedin Detachment should become part of OG-3 North.  Definitely, the

21    El Mujahedin Detachment was not a part of OG-3 North.  We did carry out

22    some operations in the operations zone of the OG-3 North, but we were

23    never a part of OG-3 North.

24       Q.   Mr. Jusuf Musinbegovic never commanded the El Mujahedin

25    Detachment; is that correct?

 1       A.   Yes, he never commanded the El Mujahedin Detachment.  I mentioned

 2    in my statement that on one occasion at a meeting, Jusuf Musinbegovic

 3    ordered the detachment to take part in one operation, and this is

 4    something that Muatez smoothly refused to do.

 5       Q.   You wrote that in paragraph 66 of your statement, and you said

 6    that "Commander Musinbegovic was in charge of the whole operation.

 7    However, our detachment did not take part in that operation because Muatez

 8    refused that because the El Mujahedin Detachment was not ready for that."

 9            Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes, that is correct.

11       Q.   The detachment not only did not accept the order on the

12    resubordination to OG-3 North, as was ordered, but according to that

13    order, the commander did not even enter into combat actions?

14       A.   Yes, that is correct.

15       Q.   However, what is correct is that the detachment, three weeks or a

16    month later, carried out this action independently, without any order?

17       A.   Yes, that is correct.

18            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please show

19    1831 to the witness.  But before that, I would like to tender this

20    document.

21            JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

22    please be given an exhibit number.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 846.

24            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Do we have P1831 on the screen?

 1            For the transcript, while waiting for the English translation, I

 2    wanted to say that this is an official note of the security organ of the

 3    330th Brigade, dated the 8th of October, 1994.  This document deals with

 4    some events at Visoka Glava and Pisana Jelika, and you've answered to some

 5    of the Prosecutor's questions regarding these two locations.

 6       Q.   Please read paragraph 2 of the document, which begins with:  "On

 7    the 7th of October, 1994 ..."  Read it to yourself, please.

 8            The document mentions a meeting between members of the 330th

 9    Brigade and the El Mujahedin Detachment members at the front line, during

10    which contact was established between an operative from the 330th Brigade

11    and OG North, as well as the El Mujahedin Detachment.  That operative, as

12    one could see from the document, tried to persuade Emir that he had

13    certain orders from the commander.  In the document, it is stated that the

14    Emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment took that man's rifle away and that

15    the interpreter interpreted that Emir gave a certain order to the member

16    of the 330th Brigade to pick up his radio set and call his commander.

17            What I want to ask you concerning this is the following:  It seems

18    that the Emir of the detachment, in the field, orders members of the 330th

19    Brigade around, rather than the other way around?

20       A.   Such situations occurred frequently.  After the operation, some

21    local units had to assume the positions previously taken over by the El

22    Mujahedin Detachment.  However, they would usually be late, and I believe

23    that was the reason for this incident as well.  This clearly shows that

24    the detachment was not resubordinated to the 330th Brigade.

25            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 1            Your Honours, could we please assign an exhibit number to this

 2    document.

 3            JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 4    please be given an exhibit number.

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 847.

 6            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   In paragraph 67 of your statement, you said that, and I quote:

 8            "Orders came from the 3rd Corps, but as for the El Mujahedin

 9    Detachment, Commander Muatez had the final authority to make decisions

10    about whether or not to take part in an operation."

11            I just would like to clarify something.

12            This authority was not given to Muatez by the Command of the 3rd

13    Corps, was it?

14       A.   That is correct.  I think we addressed that already.  His

15    authority derived from the Command of the El Mujahedin Detachment, from

16    the Emir and the Shura.

17       Q.   Therefore, the authority was given to him by the Emir and Shura,

18    and he followed that through; is that correct?

19       A.   Yes, it is.

20            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show P1731 to the

21    witness now.

22            For the transcript, this is a document from the 3rd Corps Command.

23    The date is the 9th of April, 1994.  Again, there is a resubordination of

24    the El Mujahedin unit that is being ordered.

25       Q.   Do you agree with me that this is the third order within the

 1    period between the 3rd of April, 1994, and the 9th of April, 1994,

 2    ordering that the El Mujahedin Detachment be resubordinated?

 3            Could you please go to page 2 in the English.  Scroll up so that

 4    we can see the text.

 5            This time, on the 9th of April, 1994, the resubordination of the

 6    El Mujahedin Detachment is being ordered to the Command of the 7th Muslim

 7    Brigade for the forthcoming combat operations.  I wanted to ask you this

 8    concerning this document and in general:  During the time when you were

 9    there, that is, as of the moment you joined the detachment until the end

10    of the war, did the 7th Muslim Brigade Command act as the El Mujahedin

11    Detachment Command at any point?

12       A.   The detachment was never resubordinated to the Command of the 7th

13    Muslim Brigade, and the Command of the 7th Brigade had held no sway, no

14    authority, over the detachment.

15       Q.   You saw these three documents and a number of others, and I'd like

16    to put my case to you.

17            The documents which came from the 3rd Corps and the orders by

18    which the 3rd Corps attempted to include the El Mujahedin Detachment

19    within the corps structure were basically just pieces of paper.  The

20    detachment never accepted such orders or any resubordination?

21       A.   That is correct.

22       Q.   You've told us already that the Command of the detachment decided

23    whether they would participate in a certain operation based on their own

24    criteria applied to the preparation of that action or operation?

25       A.   That is correct.

 1       Q.   In other words, the 3rd Corps could not count with the El

 2    Mujahedin Detachment when they would need it, when they thought the

 3    detachment should participate in a given operation?

 4       A.   Precisely so.

 5            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document

 6    please be admitted into evidence.

 7            JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8    please be given an exhibit number.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 848.

10            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   It is correct, is it not, that the detachment accepted to

13    participate in certain operations by putting certain conditions first; is

14    that correct?

15       A.   That is correct.  Those conditions mainly had to do with the

16    technical preconditions to carry out the operation.

17            JUDGE MOLOTO:  What are "technical preconditions"?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that the El Mujahedin

19    Detachment always carried out operations within the areas of

20    responsibility of other army units.  All those defence lines of the army

21    were mined, and mines and minefields should be cleared first so that

22    members of the detachment could safely enter the area between the two

23    front lines.  It also entailed making new paths and roads to be used to

24    pull out casualties and to transport supplies and support.

25            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
 1       Q.   In paragraph 208, you described or stated that Muatez insisted,

 2    concerning the Al Kamara operation, or Al Kamari -- I'm sorry if I'm

 3    pronouncing it wrong.  In any case, he asked that all the other units

 4    should not act independently but under the Command of the detachment.

 5    This was not a technical issue but an issue of the Command; is that

 6    correct?

 7       A.   Yes.  While answering the previous question, I thought we were

 8    still discussing our operations in the Teslic theatre, which was within

 9    the OG North area of operation.  We haven't reached Vozuca by that point.

10       Q.   A part of my transcript -- a part of my question was not recorded,

11    and I will repeat it.

12            I reminded you of paragraph 208 of your statement, whereby you

13    said that Muatez, concerning the Al Kamari operation, insisted that the

14    other units involved should not act independently and that they should be

15    under the command of the detachment.  Then I said that it was not a

16    technical issue, but rather it had to do with command?

17       A.   That is correct.

18       Q.   On occasion, the detachment would cancel its participation in

19    certain operations that had been planned?

20       A.   That is correct.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show Exhibit 396 to

22    the witness.

23       Q.   I believe you have never seen this document.  It is a document

24    from the 3rd Corps Command, dated the 2nd of June, 1995.  It has to do

25    with the engagement of the El Mujahedin Detachment within the area of

 1    responsibility of the 35th Brigade.  And on the 2nd of June, 1995, it is

 2    ordered that the El Mujahedin Detachment be resubordinated to the Command

 3    of the 35th Division and engage it in accordance with the plan of the

 4    Commander of the 35th Division.

 5            I would like to ask you this -- Your Honours, could we please move

 6    into closed session.

 7            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 8                          [Private session]

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)
 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

12            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13            Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have here a summary of the

15    contents of certain letters that were sent to Saudi Arabia.  There is a

16    mention made of Imad as being the person who drafted the letter.

17            Please read to yourself the first paragraph and then let me know

18    when you are done.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

20            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   "Imad" is actually Imad Al Misri [phoen] for whom in your

22    statement you said was in charge of the detachment communications; is that

23    correct?

24       A.   Yes, it is.

25       Q.   He is sending a report expressing his position by stating that the

 1    detachment is formally within the structure of the army, but he says:

 2    "They cannot order us into action without our own will."  He also states

 3    that the detachment puts forth plans for actions, since the army has no

 4    experience in that.

 5            You will agree with me that this document reflects accurately what

 6    you have testified about yesterday and today; is that correct?

 7       A.   Yes, it is.

 8       Q.   Therefore, you agree with me that the detachment worked like this,

 9    in practical terms, at least from the moment that you joined to the end of

10    the war; it worked like this, didn't it:  In formal terms, it was under

11    the army command, but in practical terms it made its own plans and the

12    army was in no position to order anything; is that right?

13       A.   Yes.

14            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this one away.  Thank

15    you.  I'm moving on to another set of questions.

16       Q.   In the statement you made to the OTP, you say that you were

17    involved in combat activities in September 1995.  Perhaps you can still

18    recall the second day of this particular action, the 11th of September,

19    1995.  So can you?

20       A.   Yes, I can.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

22    shown map number 17 from the map book.

23            Before we look at the map, may I just ask you this:

24       Q.   Can you remember the exact disposition of the El Mujahedin

25    Detachment at about noon?  Where were the groups belonging to the El

 1    Mujahedin Detachment on the 11th of September, 1995?

 2       A.   I'm able to recall their positions.  I was there, myself, and I

 3    know and remember clearly where the groups were.

 4       Q.   Would you share that with us, please.  Tell us, first of all, and

 5    then we'll try to pinpoint the exact positions on the map.

 6       A.   At noon on the second day of this operation, the 11th of

 7    September, the El Mujahedin Detachment was preparing to continue

 8    operations in the Kvrge area.  Therefore, the detachment was supposed to

 9    crush enemy lines in the Kvrge area and continue to advance down the

10    territory and in a northerly direction towards Ozren.

11       Q.   Do you remember what the previous location was?  What about

12    Djurica Vis, was that the previous location before Kvrge, or on the 11th

13    of September, 1995, had you already reached Kvrge by noon or by around

14    noon?

15            Could we please zoom in slightly --

16       A.   Indeed.

17       Q.   -- for us to see the Kvrge area?

18       A.   The upper half of the map.  It's fine like this.  A little further

19    up, please.

20            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is all right.  Can we

21    keep it like this, please.

22       Q.   Witness, can you please circle "Kvrge" by using the electronic

23    pen?

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   You were at Kvrge at around noon.  Can you tell us what happened

 1    then?

 2       A.   The detachment units, at noon, carried out an attack against the

 3    Serb-held positions around Kvrge.  They continued to push forward until

 4    that evening.  They had taken the area around Vukadino Brdo and Nemici

 5    [phoen] village, and Vukadinov Brdo itself.

 6       Q.   Can you mark that on the map, please?

 7       A.   [Marks]

 8       Q.   The Prosecutor asked you questions about the POWs who were taken

 9    in Kesten village on that day.  Can you please mark that village for us,

10    if you can see it on the map.

11       A.   Perhaps if we pull the map down a little.

12       Q.   I don't think we can do that, but I think you should be able to

13    see the village. There.  Thank you?

14       A.   [Marks]

15       Q.   You said that at noon groups belonging to the El Mujahedin

16    Detachment were in this combat area.  Was a single group belonging to the

17    El Mujahedin Detachment, from noon onwards, still in the Kesten village

18    area, based on your personal knowledge?

19       A.   What I'm about to say applies to that entire day and later on.

20    Not a single group belonging to the El Mujahedin Detachment was in the

21    Kesten village area.

22       Q.   In paragraph 263 of your statement, you say that it's not true

23    that members of the El Mujahedin Detachment took POWs away from any other

24    units, and then you go on to state that you remember that no unit of the

25    328th Brigade -- or that one unit of the 328th Brigade reported that some

 1    members of the El Mujahedin Detachment had arrived and taken charge of

 2    POWs.  You go on to state that you believe that they had simply fabricated

 3    this story in order to receive money in return for these prisoners.

 4            And now, finally, I'm coming to the crux of my question.  Witness,

 5    are you certain that the El Mujahedin Detachment did not seize, take away,

 6    capture, whatever you like, those prisoners on that day, those 61

 7    prisoners?

 8       A.   I am entirely certain.

 9       Q.   This is quite a large number of prisoners we're looking at.  You

10    would have been in a position to find out about this.  Would you know?

11       A.   I certainly would have found out.  It entirely impossible that

12    anything like this should have happened unbeknownst to me.

13       Q.   We discussed a great many groups, groups of Arabs, fighting in

14    Central Bosnia throughout 1994 and 1995.  You said that those groups had

15    nothing to do with the El Mujahedin Detachment, did you not?  Right.  And

16    now my question:  It is true, isn't it, that the El Mujahedin Detachment

17    was not the only Arab group; that on the 11th of September, 1995, fought

18    in the Vozuca area?

19       A.   That's true, we were not the only group there.

20       Q.   I asked you about Abu Zubeir's group, about Hamdala, and you said

21    you were aware of the existence of those groups.  Do you know that on that

22    day, those groups were involved in this same combat area?

23       A.   Yes, I do know that on the previous day, the 10th of September,

24    they were there, because I personally met some members of Abu Zubeir's

25    group.

 1       Q.   Personally met.  What exactly do you mean by that?  You saw them

 2    or perhaps you met them in order to arrange something.  Can you clarify

 3    that, please?

 4       A.   I saw them.  We did not arrange anything with them.  They were not

 5    working with the El Mujahedin Detachment in that particular operation.  As

 6    I said in my statement, I do not know that they worked with any other

 7    military unit, either, but I did realise that they were present in the

 8    area.

 9       Q.   Do you know that a large number of humanitarian workers were

10    involved in the fighting with Abu Zubeir?

11       A.   I had heard of this, of the fact that some humanitarian workers

12    were working with Abu Zubeir, but I didn't know those people.

13            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the map be given an exhibit

14    number, please, Your Honours.

15            JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

16    be given an exhibit number.

17            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 849.

18            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

20    Exhibit 343 now.  Thank you.  Exhibit 343.

21            All right.  We see that now.

22            I'm not sure how we can follow the translation of this document.

23    Perhaps it will be a more practical idea to put this on the ELMO and show

24    the English on our screens.  No.  Oh, well.

25            All right.  Be that as it may, at this point in time, what I care

 1    about is this map.

 2       Q.   Witness, this is a map produced by one of the persons involved in

 3    this battle.  This person drew a map showing the Mujahedin attack on Ozren

 4    and Vozuca in 1995.  Based on this diagram -- and you see the key to the

 5    diagram.  You see that the thick black line shows the movement of Abu

 6    Zubeir's groups, whereas the somewhat paler, brighter line, at least

 7    according to this person, shows the advance of the El Mujahedin Detachment

 8    in the actual battle.

 9            Much along the same lines, we see that Abu Zubeir's groups had

10    arrived from Kalesija across Orahovo, Vares, and then Breza in Zenica, and

11    then from Gluha Bukovica and the area of Zeljezno Polje.  They linked up

12    as soon as they reached the Vozuca front line.  That's what the

13    explanation says.

14            Are these the same locations that you referred to as the places

15    where Abu Zubeir's groups were deployed, Gluha Bukovica and the Zeljezno

16    Polje area?

17       A.   That's right.  I know that Abu Zubeir's headquarters was at

18    Zeljezno Polje.  He personally was based there.  They had another group at

19    Gluha Bukovica.  I said already that I was not aware of the Kalesija

20    group.

21       Q.   Thank you.  And now is it true, that is at least what the map

22    appears to indicate, isn't it, that Abu Zubeir's groups were moving nearly

23    in parallel with the El Mujahedin unit throughout these combat operations?

24    Can you comment on that, sir?

25       A.   These arrows marking the moves of the El Mujahedin Detachment are

 1    not really perfectly accurate.  The entire map is a little simplified, but

 2    I can say for certain that the detachment was not using these axes, was

 3    not moving along these axes displayed here.  Well, in part, it was, but

 4    not entirely.

 5       Q.   Right.  Do you know that on the 10th and 11th of September, 1995,

 6    Abu Zubeir's group was moving to, along these axes, between Vozuca and

 7    Ozren along with some humanitarian workers?

 8       A.   That was where we came across them, at the foot of Paljenik,

 9    roughly speaking, and that's what the arrows indicate.  Perhaps a little

10    higher up, a little higher up.  A little further to the east, perhaps, in

11    a place called "Stog."  Those who were involved claimed that they

12    continued from Stog on down this axis.  If that's what they claim, then

13    it's probably like that.

14       Q.   You're saying "Stog," Witness, but we can't follow that.  Can you

15    please, at least roughly, mark on this map where it was that you met Abu

16    Zubeir's group?

17       A.   [Marks] Somewhere in this area, roughly speaking.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Did you also hear that on the 11th of September, Abu

19    Zubeir's group was moving towards Ozren also?

20       A.   As far as I know, they remained in the area until the very end of

21    that operation.

22       Q.   When you say "in the area," can you try to be more specific, sir?

23    Which area do you have in mind?

24       A.   I mean the area in which combat operations continued north of

25    Vozuca, between Prokop and as far as Ozren and further beyond.

 1       Q.   Thank you very much.  Let's try to further clarify this.

 2            Abu Zubeir's groups, or indeed humanitarian workers, at the time,

 3    were not under the command of the El Mujahedin Detachment, were they?

 4       A.   That's right.

 5       Q.   They weren't even working together with the El Mujahedin

 6    Detachment during these combat operations, were they?

 7       A.   We didn't even know they were there until we actually bumped into

 8    them.

 9            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10            Your Honours, may the map please be given -- or, rather:

11       Q.   Witness, just please write "Stog" or whatever you say was the name

12    of that particular location.

13       A.   [Marks].

14            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15            This map has been exhibited already, but we want this map as a new

16    exhibit marked in the way the witness has just marked it.  Thank you.

17            JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

18    be given an exhibit number.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit number 850.

20            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this away now, please.

22    Could the witness please be shown 669, Exhibit 669.

23            This is entitled:  "Information by the Security Service

24    Department."  The date is the 16th of September, 1998.  Again, this

25    discusses information on the El Mujahedin Detachment.

 1            Towards the bottom of this document, if we could please pull the

 2    English down a little, what you can see is this:  Another intercepted

 3    report from the El Mujahedin Detachment, the 16th of September, 1995.  I

 4    believe I said that, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said so, but the interpreter said "1998."

 6            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In English, it's the

 7    following page.  This is about an intercepted report by the detachment's

 8    Emir.  This is about the Bedr Al Bosna, it's the battle of Vozuca, the

 9    liberation of Vozuca.

10            And now I want the witness to look at page 2 of the Bosnian and

11    page 4 of the English.  We can show the Bosnian in such a way as to see

12    the bottom half of the page.  Oh, that's fine.

13       Q.   Please, Witness, focus your attention on the part that says:  "New

14    territory has been taken ..."

15            That is the second-to-last paragraph.  In the English, it starts

16    with the following words:  "We have taken new territories ..."  It's just

17    that one portion.

18            Do you agree that it reads:

19            "The Mujahedin have gained ground and entered a group of Serbian

20    villages.  After the killing, they took 60 prisoners."

21            Please keep this in mind as we proceed.  Do you agree that it says

22    here "the Mujahedin," which is not necessarily the same thing as "the

23    Mujahedin Detachment"; right?

24       A.   Yes, that's right.

25            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need to go back

 1    to this.  It has not been interpreted properly.

 2       Q.   What I asked the witness is this, and I will try to say this

 3    slowly.  I asked the witness this:  Do you agree that what the document

 4    says is this:  The Mujahidi [as interpreted] have gained ground and

 5    entered a group of Serbian villages or Serb villages, and do you agree

 6    here that -- that what we discussed yesterday, Mujahidi and Mujahedin

 7    "odred" is not the same thing, is it?

 8       A.   Of course it's not the same thing.  We concluded that yesterday,

 9    didn't we?

10       Q.   "Mujahidi" is a general term for a fighter; right?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.

12       Q.   In the English version, it reads "the Mujahedin," which is

13    certainly not what the Bosnian says.  I was waiting until we had a witness

14    here who could clarify that for our benefit.  Therefore, Witness, once

15    again, the word "Mujahidi" and "Mujahedin," in the sense of the Mujahedin

16    Detachment, is not the same, is it?

17       A.   No, it's not the same.

18            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we please show page

19    2 of the document now.  In the English, this is also the next page.  Page

20    5 in the English.

21       Q.   Witness, can you please focus on this portion of the document

22    which is just above the list of names.  It is clear that this report is on

23    its way; you agree, right?  And the report is about Mujahidi, the

24    fighters.  And then look at the paragraph just above the names.  It reads:

25             "The Bosnian Army also took part in this operation under the

 1    command of the El Mujahedin Detachment."

 2            And then it goes on to say:  "Victory, victims," and then a list

 3    of victims or casualties.  And do you agree -- well, please have a look.

 4       A.   I can see that.

 5       Q.   Do you agree with me that in actual fact, the person who wrote

 6    this report makes a clear distinction when describing the Mujahidi, the

 7    fighters on the one hand, and the El Mujahedin Detachment, on the other

 8    hand, which is the very first reference to it in this report?

 9       A.   Yes, that seems to be the clear inference, based on this letter.

10            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back once more to the

11    previous page, Your Honours, please, in both the English and the Bosnian.

12            Again have a look.  This is a general description of the course of

13    the battle.  The Mujahidi, the fighters, are advancing.  That's what it

14    says.

15       Q.   Would that be your conclusion?  This portion is not specifically

16    about the El Mujahedin Detachment, is it?

17       A.   That's right.  This could be in reference to any other army unit

18    or, indeed, any other fighters who were involved.

19       Q.   Thank you.  On page 2 of this document, you just read what the

20    author says.  The Bosnian Army was involved under the Command of the

21    detachment.  It is clear that whoever asked this report --

22            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the question.

23    May counsel please repeat the question.

24            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

25       Q.   Whoever authored this report, when he wrote that the El Mujahedin

 1    Detachment -- that in the action the BH Army was involved under the

 2    command of the detachment, therefore it is clear that, therefore, the

 3    author of the report did not believe that the army was in command of this

 4    action; right?

 5       A.   That is correct.  The units that took part in the area of

 6    responsibility of the 35th Division, their members were all under the

 7    command of the El Mujahedin Detachment in that operation.

 8       Q.   And not the other way around, then?

 9       A.   That's right, not the other way around.

10            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For a minute, can we go back to this

11    report, please.

12       Q.   Once again, did the El Mujahedin Detachment capture those 61

13    prisoners?  Would you accept that this was proof that these were arrested

14    or captured by the El Mujahedin, that the prisoners of war were captured

15    by El Mujahedin?

16       A.   Regardless of what it says in this report and what it specifically

17    refers to, the detachment absolutely did not arrest or capture more than

18    six detainees in that operation.

19            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said "15", not "six."

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 15.

21            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   You said "not more."  Can you come close to the --

23            JUDGE MOLOTO:  And when you say "the detachment," do you mean the

24    El Mujahedin Detachment that captured 15?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  Whenever I say

 1    "detachment," I mean the El Mujahedin Detachment.  Next time, I will try

 2    not to leave out "El Mujahedin."

 3            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Please, Witness, the Prosecutor -- now I'm going to move to

 5    something -- something else.  I just want to ask you, before that, about

 6    this, what you have just said last, please.

 7            That day, outside the El Mujahedin Detachment, there were many

 8    Arabs who were fighting; is that correct?

 9       A.   That is correct.  I met a group of some 30 of them, and I heard

10    that the whole of Buzuber's [as interpreted] group was present in the

11    field, allegedly over 200 men.

12       Q.   Just to clarify for the transcript, you're talking about Abu

13    Zubeir's group?  The witness is talking about Abu Zubeir's group.

14            Did you ever have information about those prisoners of war before

15    you -- that this event actually did take place before you spoke with the

16    OTP?

17       A.   Just like I already said in my statement, I had heard about a

18    report that I believe the 2nd Battalion of the 328th Brigade sent

19    requesting that they be paid compensation, funds for the prisoners.  At

20    that time, there was a practice that units were rewarded for captured or

21    killed members of enemy forces and also for the capture of equipment,

22    materiel and the like.

23       Q.   Well, let's just clarify that.  Did anyone from the Bosnian Army

24    Army, or on behalf of the army, or members of the army, asked around the

25    members of the detachment, of those -- for those prisoners?  Did the
 1    detachment capture prisoners?

 2       A.   At the time, nobody was asking anything about some group of some

 3    60 detainees, not in that time period during those days or later.

 4       Q.   Well, at least not to your knowledge?

 5       A.   I don't know about it, but I would have to know if something like

 6    that happened.

 7       Q.   What I'm interested is:  How did you find out about that report of

 8    the 328th Brigade?

 9       A.   I heard -- I didn't see that statement, but -- that report, but I

10    did see them asking for that compensation.  Well, that was a little bit

11    funny or cute, as far as we were concerned, but we didn't really take that

12    seriously.

13       Q.   You didn't take it seriously because you did not have information

14    that this capture had taken place?

15       A.   Well, that capture did not take place.

16       Q.   It did not take place on the part of the El Mujahedin Detachment,

17    at least; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes, that's correct.  Especially what did not happen was that

19    these prisoners were seized from some other unit.

20       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  The Prosecutor showed you a document, MFI

21    832, that had to do with the issuance of permission to go abroad, and in

22    relation to that I would like to ask you:  It's correct, isn't it, that

23    the detachment, El Mujahedin itself, had arranged and paid for that; that

24    is correct?

25       A.   Yes, that's right.  That was completely arranged by the El

 1    Mujahedin Detachment.

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can move into

 5    closed session once again, and I apologise again.  Perhaps this sentence

 6    can be redacted from the transcript, because it can also be used to

 7    identify.

 8            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May lines 15 and 16 of page 57 be redacted, please,

 9    and may the Chamber please move into private session.

10                          [Private session]

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25                          [Open session]

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 2            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3            MR. MUNDIS:

 4       Q.   PW-9, can you just briefly clarify for us the relationship between

 5    the Emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment and its military commander, in

 6    terms of their responsibilities and duties and functions?

 7       A.   The Commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment, Abu Maali, was

 8    responsible for the whole detachment and for everything that happened in

 9    the detachment.  This implies both his Assistant for military affairs and

10    his other assistants, such as assistants for the Press Centre of the

11    detachment, for religious instruction of the detachment, for the motorised

12    unit, the servicing, everything that was a part of the El Mujahedin

13    Detachment.  The deputy -- or assistant commander for military affairs was

14    responsible for the units in the front, for preparation of operations, for

15    military training, for procurement of equipment and materiel that had to

16    do with the army, and so on.

17       Q.   And, sir, when you refer to the assistant commander for military

18    affairs, to whom are you referring?

19       A.   I am thinking of Muatez Al Masri, who stayed at that function

20    until he was killed on the 22nd of September, 1995.

21       Q.   PW-9, in your written statement, there are a number of paragraphs

22    that talk about various meetings that you attended with Muatez and with

23    other senior commanders of ABiH units.  Do you remember those meetings

24    that you've discussed in your statement?

25       A.   Yes, I remember, and I remember the meetings.

 1       Q.   Can you recall, sir, approximately how many such meetings you

 2    personally attended that were attended also by Muatez and senior ABiH

 3    commanders?

 4       A.   There were between seven to ten meetings, for sure.

 5       Q.   And, sir, what was the time period of these seven to ten meetings?

 6  (redacted)

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16            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Vidovic.  I think it will be

17    prudent to redact line 25 of page 63, maybe that whole answer.

18            May we then move into private session also.

19                          [Private session]

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11                          [Open session]

12            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

13            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14            Yes, Mr. Mundis.

15            MR. MUNDIS:

16       Q.   PW-9, I now want to turn now to a different topic.

17            I believe earlier this morning, in response to a question by my

18    colleague Madam Vidovic, you told us that there were no more than 15

19    prisoners of war taken by the detachment during the course of the war.

20    Did I understand you correctly?

21       A.   No, you didn't.  The 15 prisoners were just in the last operation

22    performed by the El Mujahedin Detachment on the 10th of September, 1995.

23       Q.   Okay.  Well, when you say -- okay, you've clarified that.

24            Let me ask you this, sir, because in paragraph 256 of your

25    statement, you make reference to around 25 POWs had been taken, and I'm

     wondering if you recall that and if you can tell us which operation you

 2    were referring to in that paragraph.

 3       A.   I remember that.  That was the overall number of prisoners that we

 4    took in the Vozuca theatre of war.

 5            In the first operation, there were no prisoners.  In the second

 6    and third, a total of about 25 prisoners were taken.

 7            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, sir.  I think I just have one last topic

 8    that I would like to cover with you, and my learned colleague was

 9    discussing this with you immediately before the last break.  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11       Q.   And you told us, sir, as reflected on lines 15 to 23 of page 58 --

12    I think we do need to go into private session, Your Honours. I think this

13    was covered in private session, so I would ask that, please.

14            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

15                          [Private session]

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18                          [Open session]

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

20            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed, Judge.

21            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So, Witness, I wanted to ask you

22    to tell us something about Dzemat.  You've talked to us about this.

23            First of all, I would like you to tell me, if I understood you

24    correctly, that the Dzemat was linked to the El Mujahed Detachment and

25    that the Mujahedin from other groups were not part of that group, other

 1    Arabs; is that correct?

 2       A.   If your question is about other Arabs who were involved in the

 3    fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in that case what you say is accurate.

 4            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  Thank you

 5    very much.

 6            So regarding all the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment, were

 7    they all part of the Dzemat?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One more thing.

10            Did you know, personally, each member of the El Mujahedin

11    Detachment?

12       A.   No, not each of them.

13            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And one more question

14    regarding passports and the problems.

15            When it came to issuing passports, when El Mujahedin had to go to

16    a foreign country for medical treatment, do you know, how were they able

17    to come into Bosnia and Herzegovina without having obtained previously a

18    permit to leave the country?  Was there a procedure, for instance, for

19    these people to be able to come back after obtaining -- after having had

20    their medical treatment?  What was the procedure in place for them to come

21    back?

22       A.   There was no procedure.  Those people were citizens of Bosnia and

23    Herzegovina.  They spent some time abroad and then they returned. I'm not

24    quite certain -- or perhaps you may have misunderstood what I was saying

25    earlier on.  I'm not really sure what your question is about, exactly.

 1            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So then let me clarify before I

 2    put the next question to you.

 3            Is it only that citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina that were part

 4    of the army went to a foreign country for medical treatment or would other

 5    members also go to a foreign country for medical treatment, combatants who

 6    were foreigners within the detachment?

 7       A.   I don't know about members of any of the other army units.  As for

 8    the El Mujahedin Detachment, both the ethnic Bosnians and the foreigners

 9    who were part of the detachment went abroad for treatment. Once they had

10    been treated, they, as a rule, returned to the detachment.

11            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So foreigners, how

12    were they able to come back to Bosnia if they would leave Bosnia without a

13    prior authorisation or permit?  Was there a procedure in place for these

14    people to come back or was there a procedure through which they had to go

15    before they leave Bosnia?

16       A.   As far as I know, there was no procedure to leave or to return.

17    They required no special approval to return because, in the first place,

18    they required no special approval to leave.  As foreigners, they were no

19    military conscripts in Bosnia itself.  And you have to keep in mind the

20    fact that Bosnia at the time was not such an organised state as to keep

21    track of all of these things.

22            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So borders of Bosnia were open

23    during the war and they were open to all foreigners?

24       A.   As far as I know, they were open after the signing of the

25    Washington Agreement, open to all foreigners.  I do not know of any

 1    restrictions that were placed.

 2            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And how about before the

 3    Washington Agreement; were there any restrictions?

 4       A.   Prior to the Washington Agreement, for the most part, the BH Army

 5    forces, or should I say the forces loyal to the Sarajevo government, were

 6    not in control of the borders of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Another thing.  You talked to us

 8    about a separate department that would have functioned -- and of course I

 9    will ask you to clarify this, if I understood you correctly, so therefore

10    within the detachment there was a department to greet the newly arrivals,

11    the Arabs who would come, and you called it "The Command of the Arabs,"

12    the Arabs' Command.  Would you be able to clarify this for us, please?

13    What exactly were you referring to when you mentioned this department or

14    service?

15       A.   That's right.  Within the detachment itself, there was a special

16    section for admission of foreigners.  At first, Abu Muaz Kuwaiti headed

17    that section.  They also called him the Emir of the Arabs.  Whenever a

18    fresh foreigner turned up in the detachment, this section would interview

19    the person, they would take his personal documents, they would run certain

20    checks and pass him along to be trained for service in the El Mujahedin

21    Detachment, whenever that was needed, and so on and so forth.

22            So between this section and the Personnel Section of the Corps,

23    there was absolutely no link, no exchange of information or documents.

24            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, I would like you to tell us

25    something else about the special section for admission of foreigners.  You

 1    talked to us about the structure, but this special section, is that the

 2    section that Madam Vidovic was referring to when she was talking to -- of

 3    a sort of a security organ of the detachment?

 4       A.   No, that's not the same organ.  The security organ was a different

 5    organ within the El Mujahedin Detachment.

 6            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So unfortunately I need to put

 7    one more question to you.

 8            Since we've heard in this trial that the detachment did not have

 9    its own security organ, this type of security organ, what is it exactly?

10    Could you please clarify this for us?

11       A.   I said that this was the Security Service.  The Security Service

12    was responsible for the security of the Vatrostalna barracks, as well as

13    the discipline of Bosniaks in the El Mujahedin Detachment.  The service

14    was headed by Ezher Beganovic.

15            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And this Security Service was to

16    contact war prisoners; was that part of their function?

17       A.   The responsibility for the prisoners of war lay with Muatez, as

18    assistant commander for military affairs, and whoever he personally

19    entrusted to carry -- as to who he personally entrusted to carry out

20    interviews with the prisoners of war is something that I don't know.

21            JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

23            PW-9, I also have some questions for you in relation to your

24    testimonies over these past days.

25            If we just stick to the issue which was raised most recently by

 1    Judge Lattanzi about the registration of incoming new foreigners to your

 2    detachment, my question is:  Do you know how these individuals came to

 3    Bosnia?

 4       A.   From what I understood and learned in conversations with some who

 5    did come, their arrival was privately arranged without any particular

 6    organisation involved.

 7            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Are you talking about a local Bosnian organisation

 8    or organisations in their homelands?

 9       A.   I don't think there was any organisation by the El Mujahedin

10    Detachment, and I'm not aware that any other organisation got them

11    together and sent them to Bosnia in an organised fashion or anything like

12    that.

13            JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  But it couldn't be a coincidence that

14    suddenly a whole number of fighters from Arab countries and other

15    countries would suddenly turn up in Bosnia to assist their Muslim brothers

16    in the war.  I mean, there must have been some sort of organisation, some

17    sort of coordination of all of this.  Do you know, from your friends in

18    the El Mujahedin Detachment, whether they were invited by the leadership

19    of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or were they offered by other

20    organisations in the Middle East or elsewhere?

21       A.   You must know that not all Arabs came to Bosnia together.  They

22    would come from the beginning of the war, from 1992, continuously until

23    the end of 1995.  For the most part, they would come individually or in

24    small groups of two, three, or five persons.  I'm aware that the Arabs

25    were encouraged to come and help in Bosnia, just like this was in the

 1    Milano Institute, whose director and found was Sheik Enver El Saban, but

 2    I'm not aware that anybody sent persons to Bosnia in an organised fashion.

 3            JUDGE HARHOFF:  The reason I'm asking, of course, is that for any

 4    state, including the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are

 5    national interests associated with foreigners coming into the territory,

 6    and so my question to you is if you know that these people who came to

 7    assist in the war effort came with the understanding or upon the

 8    invitation of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9       A.   Today, we talked about the farewell ceremony of the El Mujahedin

10    Detachment, and I recollect that at that ceremony, Abu Maali briefly said

11    why the Mujahids came to Bosnia.  If my recollection serves me well, he

12    said they came having seen, thinking of the media, images of the suffering

13    of the Muslim people in Bosnia.  I think that was their main motivation.

14            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just to conclude this point, I want to be sure

15    that I have understood you correctly, in that to your knowledge, there was

16    no official involvement of the Government of the Republic of Bosnia and

17    Herzegovina in the entrance into the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18    of fighters from abroad; is that correct?

19       A.   I'm quite sure that they were absolutely not included in this or

20    involved in this.

21            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22            Now, I have a series of questions relating to the issue of the -

23    what shall I call it - the cooperation or coordination between the El

24    Mujahedin Detachment and the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Let me begin

25    this series of questions by referring to the, what should I say, the

 1    unfortunate speech which we heard on the television clip -- on the video

 2    clip, sorry, where General Delic, if indeed it was him, and I leave that

 3    open, but the suggestion that was made was that the El Mujahedin

 4    Detachment was -- and I think the words came "was always a part of the

 5    army in Bosnia and Herzegovina."  That was the quotation that I noted.

 6            Now, regardless of whether this speech was authentic or not, I

 7    would like you to give me your opinion of exactly that issue.  Was the El

 8    Mujahedin Detachment a part of the ABiH?

 9       A.   We saw here the order instructing the formation of the El

10    Mujahedin Detachment on the 13th of August, 1993, and that would, de jure,

11    mean that the detachment was an integral part of the army. However, the El

12    Mujahedin Detachment never functioned like other units that were part of

13    the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14            I've already spoken a number of times about the relationship of

15    the detachment command towards let's call them "superior command,"

16    regardless of whether or we're talking about division, operative group, or

17    corps commands.  There are also some other indications that could point to

18    this.  For example, members of the El Mujahedin Detachment never wore

19    insignia of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The El Mujahedin

20    Detachment never had any flags flying of the Army of Bosnia and

21    Herzegovina in any of its barracks.  Ranking officers, whom we also

22    mentioned during my testimony, never actually wore their rank insignia,

23    which was contrary to army regulations.

24            So it can be said that the detachment was de facto another army or

25    a different army.

 1            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Well, that is the very core of this trial.

 2            Now, just to revert you to your observation that the El Mujahedin

 3    Detachment never bore insignia and never flew any of the flags and so on,

 4    I have noticed that as well, but I also saw on one of the documents, I

 5    think on the first day of your testimony, that a stamp was applied by the

 6    El Mujahid Detachment, and I think you referred yourself to the El Mujahid

 7    Detachment being a unit, and a four-digit number, I can't remember the

 8    digits, but that seemed to me to be a formal indication of the El Mujahid

 9    Detachment being a part of the ABiH.

10       A.   Yes, that is so.  Formally, the detachment was an integral part of

11    the army.  We've already said that in relation to the order on the

12    formation of the El Mujahedin Detachment.  The stamp had to be used for

13    documents that, in particular, had to do with the Bosnian members of the

14    El Mujahedin Detachment and the resolution of their status as members of

15    the army.  None of us or of the detachment command wanted the Bosnian

16    members of the detachment, as military conscript did not want them to be

17    left off the register of Bosnian Army members.

18            JUDGE HARHOFF:  In your statement, paragraph 32, and I would ask

19    the Registrar to assist us in bringing up paragraph 32 of the statement,

20    if possible --

21            THE REGISTRAR:  [Microphone not activated]

22            JUDGE HARHOFF:  I don't think it is necessary with private

23    session.  No, it's not, so you can just go ahead. It's not necessary.

24            My question relates to the same aspect of the relations between

25    the two armed forces here.

 1            You say, in paragraph 32, that the El Mujahedin Detachment was a

 2    part of the ABiH and it was subordinated to the 3rd Corps.  You can read

 3    for yourself when you find it.

 4       A.   Yes, I said that, and it says in my statement that this was

 5    formally that way.  Formally, in our language, you could interpret as

 6    meaning de jure, but in essence it operated quite differently from the way

 7    that a unit should operate in relation to its superior command.

 8            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Well, PW-9, thank you very much, but we are

 9    looking to find out what were, then, these differences, and what was the

10    importance or the implications of these differences when it comes to the

11    responsibility for crimes possibly committed during the armed operations?

12       A.   I can say with certainty that there were no crimes and that this

13    is superfluous, but it's up to the Court to establish what the essence of

14    these events was.

15            I apologise.  Let me just say that there were no crimes on the

16    part of the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

17            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Well, that question is for this Trial Chamber to

18    determine.  But let us just for the example, I'm not saying that there

19    were crimes committed or that there were not crimes committed, leave this

20    question aside, but answer me to my question of:  Who would be responsible

21    if, hypothetically, a war crime was committed by someone who was a member

22    of the El Mujahid Detachment?

23            This is, of course, a question which has a very legal bearing, and

24    so if you cannot answer it, then please do not try to answer it.  It's

25    only if you know, through your position in the El Mujahid Detachment, that

 1    perhaps you had discussed these things in advance and that you had an

 2    answer ready to the question.  But if you don't know, then please do not

 3    try to answer my question.

 4       A.   First of all, the perpetrator, himself, would be responsible, then

 5    his immediate superior in the El Mujahedin Detachment, then Muatez as the

 6    military commander, and then --

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name --

 8       A.   As the Commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

 9            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, the interpreter didn't hear the last part of

10    your sentence.  "Then Muatez as the military commander," and then?

11       A.   And ultimately Abu Maali as the Commander of the El Mujahedin

12    Detachment.

13            JUDGE HARHOFF:  And how would the El Mujahid Detachment deal with

14    these responsibilities?  Would the Shura decide or would you -- I mean,

15    how?  What would the procedure be for dealing with the commission of war

16    crimes?

17       A.   For such a serious matter, probably the Shura would deal with it,

18    would discuss it.  As to what would happen, that is something that I

19    cannot say.

20            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Suppose the hypothetical crime of which we are now

21    talking turned out to be committed by a Bosniak, that is to say, someone

22    who was also a citizen of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, would

23    that person be tried before a Bosnian court or a military court in Bosnia?

24       A.   As a member of the detachment, first the Shura would decide his

25    fate, what they would do, would they hand him over further for trial, or

 1    whether they would, themselves, deal with the matter.

 2            JUDGE HARHOFF:  PW-9, I realise that this is highly speculative,

 3    so unless you are certain about your answers, then don't make those

 4    answers.  I would rather you would say then that you don't know if you

 5    don't know.  But you raised the issue of handing over a Bosniak for trial

 6    before a Bosnian court, being military or civil court, and we have

 7    assumed, just for the example, that the perpetrator was a Bosniak and not

 8    a foreigner, just to make the example easier.  And I understood you to say

 9    that the Shura would then decide whether they would prosecute him on their

10    own or hand him over for trial before a civil or a military Bosnian court.

11            My question to you is:  Would this, in fact, be an option, I mean

12    the handing him over to prosecution before Bosnian institutions?

13       A.   At the time, I believe that the chances for that would be slight.

14            JUDGE HARHOFF:  I don't think we should pursue this matter any

15    further, but I thank you for your answers to this line of questions.

16            Let me then move on to a third line of questions that I had in

17    relation to your testimony, and that concerns the prisoners of war.

18            If I heard you correctly, you said that altogether, during your

19    time in service for the El Mujahedin Detachment, some 25 prisoners of war

20    were seized, and 15 of them were seized at the last operation, the Vozuca

21    operation.  My question to you, in relation to these prisoners of war that

22    were taken by the El Mujahedin Detachment, is:  What did you do with them?

23       A.   These prisoners were handed over to the Military Police of the 3rd

24    Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did the El Mujahid Detachment have a detention

 1    facility where they would be able to keep prisoners for shorter or longer

 2    times?

 3       A.   I'm aware that the prisoners were kept or held briefly in the camp

 4    of the El Mujahedin Detachment 13 kilometres away.  That's where they were

 5    interviewed.  I don't know who did the interviewing, but I know some

 6    information that was received from the interviews with those prisoners.

 7            JUDGE HARHOFF:  PW-9, I realise that the time has gone, so I will

 8    defer to the President for his decision as to what we do now.  I must say

 9    I do have more questions to put to you, so -- but I'll defer to the

10    President.

11            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.

12            We would like you to spend your weekend at home, and for that

13    reason I would like to ask if it is possible, given the fact that the

14    court is available after lunch, can we sit this afternoon to finish this

15    witness?

16            Everybody's nodding.  I would like to see in the dark window there

17    if everybody is also nodding there.

18                          [Trial Chamber confers]

19            JUDGE MOLOTO:  It seems as if Judge Lattanzi would not be able to,

20    but we can sit 15 bis if it's agreeable by the rest of the people. Okay.

21                          [Trial Chamber confers]

22            JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised that the interpreters might perhaps

23    need to check before they can answer, and I see one head is nodding from

24    the interpreters.  And the suggestion is that maybe we could start at

25    3.00, 3.00 to 4.30.  Maybe in one session, we should be able to do it, and

 1    that will give the interpreters an opportunity to check, and maybe they

 2    can advise the Registrar if they're available and we can sit at 3.00.  Is

 3    that okay?

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  We need to check, Your Honours, because in that

 5    case we might need to have a new team of interpreters.

 6            JUDGE MOLOTO:  And then once you have checked, you can then advise

 7    the Registrar, who will tell us?

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10            Based on that hope, we'll break, take a break, and come back at

11    3.00.

12            Thank you.  Court adjourned.

13                          --- Recess taken at 1.50 p.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.

15            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16            Thank you to the interpreters for accommodating us.

17            Judge.

18            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

19            PW-9, we were in the series of questions relating to the prisoners

20    of war, and you told us that at the Kamenica 13-kilometre camp, there was

21    limited detention facilities to keep prisoners there for a short period of

22    time, and you also told us that some of the prisoners were actually held

23    there for some time and that they were questioned by some of the officers

24    of the El Mujahid Detachment.

25            PW-9, did you ever visit the Kamenica camp, and did you see the

 1    detention facilities for yourself?

 2       A.   I went there many times.

 3            JUDGE HARHOFF:  And did you see the detention?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Were there any prisoners kept in the detention

 6    when you went to see it?

 7       A.   I was there once when there was some prisoners there as well. They

 8    had just been taken for a bath.

 9            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you recall when that was and how many prisoners

10    there were?

11       A.   That was after the second operation that the detachment performed.

12    Late July.  There were about ten prisoners there, give or take a prisoner

13    or two.

14            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Were you able to determine their state of health,

15    just superficially, I mean?  I know that you're not a doctor, but did they

16    look to you to be in good health?

17       A.   They looked all right.  They were all able to walk unassisted to

18    the place where they were given a bath.  There was no one who was being

19    carried on a stretcher or anything like that.

20            JUDGE HARHOFF:  You told us that they were interviewed by officers

21    of the -- or members of the El Mujahid Detachment.  Do you know if the

22    information gathered by the El Mujahid Detachment was shared with the 3rd

23    Corps?

24       A.   I don't know if this was shared with the 3rd Corps Command.

25            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you know if the ICRC, the International

 1    Committee of the Red Cross, was given access to the area?

 2       A.   No, they had no access.  I wasn't aware of any requests that the

 3    Red Cross had made to come and visit.

 4            JUDGE HARHOFF:  And these prisoners, you told us they were then

 5    handed over to the Zenica Prison.  Do you know how that was arranged and

 6    after how long the time of detention?

 7       A.   At the time, I saw documents listing the names of the prisoners

 8    and the signatures of the military police members who took over, as well

 9    as the signatures of those who had handed over the soldiers.  However, the

10    hand-over procedure itself was not something that I witnessed, and I'm not

11    familiar with any details of the hand-over.

12            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you know if the 3rd Corps ever made any

13    requests to the El Mujahid Detachment to get access to the prisoners?

14       A.   I don't know.

15            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Let's move on to my next series of

16    questions, which relate to your knowledge of the other foreign group of

17    fighters -- groups of fighters in the territory of the Republic of

18    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And after that, Witness, I only have a few questions

19    relating to the Geneva Conventions, but let's first look at your knowledge

20    of the other groups of foreign fighters.

21            You have left us with the impression that you had absolutely no

22    contact with them, you did not coordinate any combat actions with them,

23    you didn't know how many there were, but since you have introduced to us

24    the concept of the Dzemat, my question would be if, at the level of the

25    Dzemat, there would be some sort of contact or exchange of information or

 1    coordination between the El Mujahid Detachment and the other groups of

 2    foreign fighters in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3       A.   I was not aware of any contacts like that.

 4            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you happen to know how these other groups

 5    were - how should I say - were arranging their presence in the Republic of

 6    Bosnia and Herzegovina with the government authorities or with the Army of

 7    the ABiH?

 8       A.   I don't know how they came to Bosnia.  I don't think they were

 9    really interested in resolving any of their own issues with the

10    authorities, the government bodies of the Republic of Bosnia and

11    Herzegovina, at all.

12            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you have a chance to elicit from them

13    information about how they had arranged their presence in Bosnia and

14    Herzegovina?  The information that I'm looking for, if you have it, is

15    whether you knew or heard that they had arranged their presence on more or

16    less the same terms as the El Mujahid Detachment had arranged its

17    existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Were they -- in other words, were they

18    there on the same terms as the El Mujahid Detachment?  Do you know?  If

19    you don't, then just tell us that you don't.

20       A.   I don't know.

21            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.

22            My last series of questions goes to the compliance with the

23    rules -- with the international rules of the laws of the war, and I'm

24    curious to know if the members of the El Mujahid Detachment were informed

25    about the Geneva Conventions and, if so, if they were required to comply

 1    with the norms of the Geneva Conventions during their combat operations.

 2       A.   Members of the detachment were not informed about the Geneva

 3    Conventions.  They had orders from their superior, Muatez, to the effect

 4    that no one was to touch the prisoners.  The prisoners were, under no

 5    conditions, to be touched or killed.

 6            In the actual unit where the prisoners were being held, there were

 7    guards around the clock and no one was allowed access to the prisoners.

 8            JUDGE HARHOFF:  If the Geneva Conventions were not being suggested

 9    to the members of the El Mujahid Detachment during combat operations as

10    norms governing the hostilities, then what other norms would apply to the

11    El Mujahid members when in combat?

12            What I'm asking about is, of course, the Geneva Conventions do not

13    only relate to prisoners of war, they also have a number of rules

14    governing combat, and my question is:  If the rules in the Geneva

15    Conventions did not apply because they were not imposed on the members,

16    then what other rules applied, or were there any rules?

17       A.   I must say I'm not privy with the detail of the Geneva Conventions

18    and the rules that stem from the Conventions.  As for the rules that the

19    members of the El Mujahedin Detachment complied with, those were rules

20    that they were taught during their training at the El Mujahedin Detachment

21    Training Centre, as well as instructions they received from their

22    superiors.

23            JUDGE HARHOFF:  And can you give us an outline of what those other

24    rules were; for instance, relating to killing of enemies during combat?

25       A.   As I pointed out in my statement, the El Mujahedin Detachment had

 1    such rules that the most important thing was the objective of an operation

 2    itself, taking certain features or taking them back from the enemy.  The

 3    objective of an operation was neither to kill nor to capture an enemy

 4    soldier.  What happened during operations, of course, was the fact of the

 5    battle.  Many enemy soldiers were killed.  There were no special rules

 6    governing that sort of thing.

 7            JUDGE HARHOFF:  You also told us about the decapitation or

 8    beheading of enemy soldiers.  I think you told us that that would have

 9    happened after they had been killed.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes, that's true.

11            JUDGE HARHOFF:  What was the purpose of this?  Why would you

12    decapitate a killed enemy soldier and display his head among the civilian

13    populations?

14       A.   The purpose in those situations was certainly not to display these

15    heads to the civilians there.  They happened to see them simply because

16    they lived in the same villages where members of the El Mujahedin

17    Detachment were staying too.  The purpose of the act of beheading itself

18    was to additionally intimidate the enemy.

19            JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, sir, you told us that at least in two

20    instances, dead enemy soldiers were decapitated on the battlefield and

21    their heads were brought to the village of Livade to be shown to the

22    civilian population there.

23       A.   I don't know how I phrased that.  I didn't mean to say that they

24    were displayed to the civilian population.  Those people who were living

25    there just saw the heads.  They were civilians living there.  There were

 1    also members of the El Mujahedin Detachment staying in homes in those

 2    villages.  It's not that these heads were deliberately displayed to the

 3    civilians living there.

 4            JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 5            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.

 6            If I may just ask a few questions.

 7            Are you able to tell what the total number of soldiers there were

 8    in the El Mujahedin Detachment?

 9       A.   From the day I joined, the number was on a steady increase.

10    Towards the end of the war, the El Mujahedin Detachment numbered about

11    1.000 members.

12            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know about what number they numbered when

13    you arrived?

14       A.   At the time, there were about 70 members, between 70 and 80

15    probably.

16            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Today, in your testimony, you mentioned - or it may

17    be yesterday, I'm not quite sure - that there were various groups of

18    Afro-Asian origin who were fighting in this war.  My question is:  On

19    whose side were they fighting?  Do you know or don't you know?

20       A.   They were fighting on the same side as the El Mujahedin

21    Detachment, the side of the BH Army.

22            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, you just correct me.  Did you say to me,

23    sometime during today, that you did not know all the members of the El

24    Mujahedin Detachment, personally?

25       A.   That's true, I did say that.
 1            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it possible that you could make a mistake, in

 2    terms of your knowledge of the membership of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

 3    And I'm suggesting that you could either mistake some of the people who

 4    belong to other groups to be members or vice versa?

 5       A.   Such a thing perhaps could have happened in a town or village out

 6    in the street, but certainly not at a time when a combat operation was

 7    unfolding.

 8            If I may just clarify, the reason was we wore special bands to

 9    distinguish us during the actual combat operations.

10            JUDGE MOLOTO:  How did the armbands look like?

11       A.   Those were armbands or ribbons in two or three different colours,

12    depending on the operation.  There was always a combination of colours

13    that was used to distinguish members of the detachment from members of all

14    the other units, especially to distinguish us from the enemy.

15            JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to make sure I don't repeat questions

16    that have already been asked by other Judges.

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23            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thanks for that clarification.

24            What I do want to find out from you is that:  You said, I think on

25    more than one occasion, that you did not know --

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 2            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  I'm advised that we need to go into private

 3    session.  May we go into private session, please.

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13                          [Open session]

14            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

15            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Vidovic, how much longer are you going to be,

16    just to double-check with the interpreters?

17            MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only ten more

18    minutes. I will be very brief.         

19       Q.   Witness, please -- witness, that means that until 1994, it was not

20    possible for a single foreigner to enter Bosnia and Herzegovina who had

21    not been let through either by the Croatian or the Serbian authorities, if

22    we leave aside UNPROFOR planes, which is how you got there; is that

23    correct?

24       A.   Yes, that is correct.

25       Q.   And those UNPROFOR flights were something that the Government of

 1    the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had no influence over; is that

 2    correct?

 3       A.   Yes, they didn't have any influence over those flights.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  After the Washington Agreement, so just a part of the

 5    border was again held by the forces of Bosnian Croats and the Republic of

 6    Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Still, the bulk of the border was blocked by Serb

 7    forces; am I correct?

 8       A.   That is correct.  Just the southwestern borders, the borders

 9    between Western Herzegovina and the Dalmatian hinderlands were under the

10    control of the Bosnian Croats.

11       Q.   So foreigners who had their own passports were able to go in and

12    out without the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina having any

13    information about that?  I'm thinking of the regular authorities of the

14    Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15       A.   Yes, that is correct.  And if I may add, the time after the

16    signing of the Washington Agreement was the time when the bulk of foreign

17    nationals joined the detachment.

18       Q.   Thank you.  I would just like to ask you something else briefly.

19            In response to His Honour Judge Harhoff, in your response and then

20    also elaborating on an answer given to the Prosecution, you spoke about

21    decisions relating to participation in attacks and also meetings that had

22    to do with that.  You described -- you said -- Your Honours, if we can now

23    go into closed session for a minute, please.

24            JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

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23                          [Open session]

24            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

25            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now that we are in open session, can I openly say

 1    to you thank you very much for accommodating us, all of you, and also

 2    thank you to the parties for agreeing to sit this afternoon.

 3            This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony today, sir.

 4    Thank you so much for coming to testify.  You are now excused and you may

 5    go -- you may stand down, and we wish you well in your travel back home.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7            JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8            I beg your pardon.  May we please move into private session so the

 9    witness may go out.

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 3                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.26 p.m.,

 4                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of

 5                          November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.