Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7361

1 Wednesday, 12 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Good afternoon, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

16 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner for the Prosecution,

17 assisted by Alma Imamovic, our case manager.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

21 afternoon to our colleagues from the Prosecution and everyone in and

22 around the courtroom. I am Vasvija Vidovic, and Mr. Nicholas Robson, for

23 the Defence of General Rasim Delic, with our case manager, Lejla Gluhic,

24 and our intern, Lejla Kevat [as interpreted].

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 7362

1 Just one little housekeeping matter before we call the witness.

2 It's with respect to one of the two motions by the Defence to which the

3 Prosecution responded yesterday. It's going to be an oral decision.

4 The Trial Chamber now delivers its oral decision on the "Defence

5 Motion for an Adjournment of Hearing" filed on 10 March 2008. The

6 Prosecution responded orally on 11 March 2008, indicating that it neither

7 opposes nor supports the motion.

8 The Defence motion requested an adjournment of the trial

9 proceedings scheduled for 1 and 2 April 2008 for the reason that

10 Ms. Vidovic is appearing as lead counsel in another case before the

11 Appeals Chamber. The Defence states that without an adjournment on the

12 requested dates, Ms. Vidovic will not be able to proof the Defence

13 witness who is scheduled to testify on 3rd and 4th April 2008, which

14 would jeopardise the accused's right to have adequate time and facilities

15 for preparation of his defence.

16 The Trial Chamber agrees with the Defence that given the

17 circumstances, it is in the interests of justice to grant an adjournment

18 on the requested dates. As such, the Trial Chamber grants the Defence

19 motion for an adjournment of hearing on the 1st and 2nd of April, 2008.

20 An additional hearing will be held on the 14th of April, 2008, to

21 compensate, in part, for the time lost as a result of this adjournment.

22 Thank you very much.

23 Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Could we please ask the Court Usher to bring in Witness

Page 7363

1 Halim Husic.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought into court.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Husic.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Mr. Husic, may I just remind you that at the

7 beginning of your testimony, you made a declaration to tell the truth,

8 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth, and that, therefore, you

9 are still bound by the declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth,

10 and nothing else but the truth. Is that okay?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


14 [The witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, before you begin, can I just round

16 out my question of yesterday at the end of the day.

17 Mr. Husic, yesterday, when we disbanded here, I was in the

18 process of asking you a question, and I wanted to refer you to part of

19 your testimony which gave me the impression that your forces were

20 fighting against the HVO forces. It was at a time when you were

21 testifying about a young man, Brkic. Do you remember?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. And the trial record has your

24 testimony as something like this:

25 "He was a minor, a young boy who joined the group of Ramo Durmis

Page 7364

1 for training. And as they were moving in the area of responsibility

2 under the control of the HVO, they drew fire from them and, among other

3 things, this young boy was killed."

4 Then there was a question saying: "When you say that it was

5 impossible to communicate, what are you referring to?"

6 You said: "I'm referring to the fact that the HVO forces had cut

7 off internally the various parts of the Bila Valley, one from another."

8 Now, that part of the testimony left me with the impression that

9 you were fighting against the HVO; but hardly a page later, still talking

10 about what I thought were the same incidents, you said:

11 "All armed formations that have not placed themselves under the

12 command of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are to be

13 dealt with straight away. As for the HVO units, full cooperation should

14 be established with them due to there being part of the regular armed

15 forces. Instructions as to the further modes of organisation will soon

16 follow."

17 Now, this part says clearly that you're cooperating with the HVO,

18 hence my question yesterday: Who were you actually fighting against at

19 this time?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this time, we were on the

21 defence lines against the Chetniks or the Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor

22 on Vlasic in the Bila Valley, where the 306th Mountain Brigade was and

23 the HVO Brigade Frankopan from Guca Gora, and some other units, groups of

24 armed men that we discussed yesterday, they did not have any mutual

25 conflicts; but in occasional incidents, especially after the HVO forces

Page 7365

1 put up blockades or check-points controlling the movement of anyone, they

2 would occasionally opened fire. These incidents were the one that I

3 actually was referring to that you understood as a conflict between these

4 forces.

5 This minor who was killed did not belong to the 306th Mountain

6 Brigade. He was a young boy who was 15 or 16 at the time, and he was in

7 one of these armed groups of Ramo Durmis, who was training them; and on

8 this occasion, fire was opened on them.

9 Now, this happened above the village Suhi Dol, an area that

10 belonged to the Bosniaks. However, above them were the HVO lines,

11 someone just opened fire willfully and murdered, killed this boy.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Could you, in one sentence, answer me this

14 question: Are you saying this young boy was killed by friendly fire?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 306th and the Frankopan

16 Brigade at the time cooperated. This young boy did not belong to either

17 the 306th or the Frankopan Brigade. He was in this armed group, and

18 incidents between them happened.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Frankopan Brigade was an HVO brigade; am I

20 right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: This young boy was in -- was not in the 306th

23 Brigade but was in Ramo Durmis' unit?

24 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Ramo Durmis was part of the Army of the

Page 7366

1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was he not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We repeated this on several

3 occasions yesterday. He was not part of any unit of the Army of Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But he had been part of it at some stage and left?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Much earlier, before this period,

7 he was a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade; and with a group of fighters,

8 disagreeing with the policies of the Army of the Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he left the 7th Muslim Brigade and established his

10 own group, which represented itself variously using different names and

11 falsely.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, now I understand. Thank you so much.

13 Sorry, Madam Vidovic.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] There is still something I

15 cannot understand. You've just mentioned minor incidents between units

16 of the Bosnian Army and units of the HVO, but that doesn't match with

17 what you said; i.e., that Croats had segmented or cut off the various

18 parts of the Bila Valley and that there was -- that was impossible to

19 communicate.

20 This was not a minor incident, so could you please explain what

21 you said when you said that those Croat forces were preventing you from

22 communicating and had cut off the various parts of the Bila Valley?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me,

24 perhaps I can help. At this point, I was going to show the witness a

25 document that will clarify this, if you allow me.

Page 7367

1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I'll be very

2 happy.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 87.

5 For the record, before the document comes up on the screens, this

6 is a document from the Command of the 3rd Corps of 13 April 1993,

7 entitled "Protest."

8 Examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

9 Q. Mr. Husic, could you please --

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask the document be

11 zoomed in on the one-before-last paragraph of the document in Bosnian and

12 the English version.

13 Q. Witness, please take a look at this part of the document, and I

14 will read a small portion of it. It says:

15 "During the day on April 13th, 1993, HVO units set up new

16 roadblocks and reinforced the existing ones: The Han Bila-Zenica road at

17 Ovnak; the Rudnik-Novi Bila road; the village Pokrajcici, it's not quite

18 clear; Rudnik; the village of Guca Gora on Kosovo; and in front of

19 Guca Gora, several roadblocks on the Guca Gora-Travnik road. During the

20 night between the 13th and 14th of April, 1993, HVO units used small arms

21 fire for provocation purposes."

22 I would like you to explain the following: This is a document

23 dated the 13th of April, 1993. Does this document reflect the situation

24 in the Bila Valley as it was in mid-April 1993, as far as the

25 check-points are concerned?

Page 7368

1 A. Yes, absolutely. Yesterday, I spoke -- I mentioned on several

2 occasions that HVO forces agreed one thing and acted differently. We,

3 within the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, were clear

4 that we could not open a new front in addition to the fighting with the

5 Chetniks, and we tried to avoid conflict in any way possible and reach

6 solutions through agreements.

7 And, unfortunately, although on the one side we reached

8 agreements, on the other hand, in practice, it was quite different,

9 especially after April 8th, when, in Travnik, the Croatian Community of

10 Herceg-Bosna was convening a meeting, whose goal was to proclaim the

11 municipalities of Busovaca, Zenica, Vitez, on the 10th of April 1993,

12 which was the date of the anniversary of the independent State of

13 Croatia, to proclaim them independent.

14 Q. Thank you for your answer. Could we please discuss the following

15 thing.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

17 shown Exhibit D -- excuse me, document D924.

18 Q. This is a document dealing with an order from the HVO Brigade

19 Frankopan in Guca Gora of the 24th of April, 1993.

20 Of course, I do not expect you to identify this document. It is

21 a short document, and I would please ask you to read this document. The

22 date is the 24th of May, 1993. Could you please read it and comment on

23 it, but briefly.

24 A. Yes. This is precisely what we are discussing now. The

25 check-points in the Bila Valley that were there, but they were in play of

Page 7369

1 some broader interest, and the dominant elevations at this time were

2 totally under full control of HVO forces, and that is very clear from

3 this order.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that the document that I showed you, as

5 the document which was an order from General Hadzihasanovic, bore the

6 date in early April 1993; do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The date on this document was the 3rd of April, 1993.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I'm referring here to the order

10 that the witness discussed in relation to the question that was posed by

11 Your Honour, a document where the HVO was mentioned and where it was

12 stated that a conflict with the HVO should be avoided. The date was the

13 3rd of April.

14 Q. Do you agree that the situation was changing?

15 MR. NEUNER: Maybe we can, to help the witness answering also

16 this question, we can pull up the document itself, and the witness can

17 have a look at it. There was a lot of information going in, and I think

18 we should all see the document.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is totally all

22 right; although, I was trying to save time.

23 But before I go back to this document, Your Honour, could we

24 please -- could we please have a number issued for this document?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document 924 is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 7370

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become

3 Exhibit 1202.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see now again

7 document D230.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact, it does look like D230 was not admitted

9 into evidence yesterday, so just as well it's coming up again.

10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised it's been admitted through the Bar

12 Table motion.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, can you see the date? You remember what I asked you a

15 bit earlier when my colleague from the Prosecution made his objection.

16 Do you recall that I asked you about the date of this document?

17 Could you please look at the date, and would you agree that it says there

18 that it's the 3rd of April, 1993? Can you see the date?

19 A. Yes, I do, but I'm not sure whether it's the 3rd or the 5th of

20 April, 1993.

21 Q. Yes. Could you please take a look up in the document, where it

22 says "Zenica"?

23 A. Yes. I see there it states the 3rd of April.

24 Q. Now, let me ask you this in relation to the date. This is to

25 clarify the question that Your Honour asked a bit earlier. At this time,

Page 7371

1 in early April 1993, was the corps and the units, you who were on the

2 ground, were you still trying at this time to avoid conflict with the

3 Croats; is that what you were trying to say?

4 A. Yes, that's exactly it.

5 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry. The way the question was drafted,

6 phrased, it was a leading question, Your Honour.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I reply, Your Honour?

8 It would be a leading question if the witness had not already

9 answered this question in detail, the question that Judge Lattanzi posed.

10 A few moments ago, the witness explained in detail that at this time, the

11 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina tried to avoid conflict, and I'm just

12 trying to put -- to draw a tie, put a connection between this document

13 and the questions that Your Honours had yesterday about this.

14 This is the purpose of it; and, therefore, I think this question

15 was not leading, because the witness had already given a reply to it in

16 the same manner that I have interpreted it.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would agree with that, Mr. Neuner. Would you

18 not? I thought Madam Vidovic was just taking us back to what the witness

19 already told us a little earlier. So, in that event, I'll allow the

20 question.

21 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Husic, did you understand what I asked you? I asked you

24 whether the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in early April 1993, tried to

25 avoid the conflict. What was the position of the Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 7372

1 Army on the issue of a conflict with Croats?

2 A. At no cost, at no cost were we to open a conflict with the HVO,

3 because we were not strong enough to hold on the lines against the

4 Chetnik-Serbian-Montenegrin aggressor, and the lines of communication and

5 supply routes would have been closed at the same time.

6 In the Bila Valley, locally, this was especially important,

7 because we had no way out and no communication with anyone, except

8 through the territory held by the HVO.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Your Honour, it was my understanding that this document has

11 already been assigned a number. Is that correct? I think it was from

12 the Bar Table motion. Thank you.

13 This document may now be removed, and I would like the witness to

14 be shown Exhibit 86.

15 Q. Witness, would you please focus your attention on the part of the

16 document of the 306th Brigade of 11 April 1993, referring to "Own

17 Forces." Would you please take a look, first of all, at the part which

18 says, "In accordance with the previous order ..."

19 "In accordance with the previous order," would you read that,

20 please? There, logistics and logistic support is discussed.

21 And, Witness, I will just quote the last sentence there from this

22 portion. It says there: "Logistics support of the unit is bad, which

23 makes it practically impossible for us to carry out our regular duties."

24 Then mention is made of lack of fuel, lubricants, spare parts,

25 weapons, ammunition, clothing and so on. What I would like to ask you is

Page 7373

1 this: Does this document reflect the actual situation as it was in

2 mid-April 1993 with the 306th Brigade?

3 A. Completely, and this is what we've been discussing throughout.

4 Q. Thank you. Would you now look further down in the document,

5 where it mentions the OG West Command.

6 You will see the part which says: "Communications with the

7 OG West Command has been practically nonexistent in approximately the

8 past ten days."

9 What I would like you to do is comment on the situation -- the

10 communications situation in the course of April and May 1993.

11 A. The siege [as interpreted] of OG West was in Bugojno. Conflicts

12 with the HVO forces had already started in Bugojno; and, at the time, we

13 didn't have any connection with the OG that we belonged to. This is why

14 our documents and the corps documents from that period of time were

15 addressed both to the corps and to the operations group or the corps.

16 Even though we were part of the operations group, the corps sent the

17 documents directly to the 306th Mountain Brigade.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

19 MR. NEUNER: Sorry to interrupt my learned colleague. There's

20 just a correction on the transcript. Page 13, line 8, says "the siege of

21 OG West," and I believe the witness has said "the seat of OG West."

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Neuner.

23 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thanks to my colleague, Mr. Neuner.

25 Q. Witness, does this document show the actual state of affairs of

Page 7374

1 communication in the field in the 306th or not?

2 A. Yes, it does.

3 Q. Witness, have you heard you've been asked to speak up a little

4 bit?

5 A. Yes, thank you.

6 Q. Now I would like to talk about June 1993. Please, which military

7 forces were carrying out attacks in the River Bila Valley in June 1993,

8 if any?

9 A. The beginning of the conflict in the Bila Valley actually

10 happened on the 28th of May, 1993, when -- at the time when the

11 representatives of the Croatian and Bosnian people were negotiating in

12 Guca Gora, very close to the seat of the Frankopan Brigade. During these

13 negotiations, there was an alert given to the Frankopan Brigade units.

14 Their commander, Mr. Ilija Nakic, left the negotiations, and the other

15 negotiators of Croat ethnicity tried to help the Bosniak negotiators,

16 including myself, to pull out safely from Guca Gora.

17 And from that point on, in some 20 places of the Bila Valley, it

18 was absolutely not possible to move, nor was it possible for the

19 locations or localities to communicate amongst themselves, nor was any

20 action possible. The brigade commander, the chief of staff, and his two

21 assistants were blocked, practically captured in the village of Krpeljici

22 in the immediate vicinity of the village of Guca Gora.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that very long answer, but can you

25 please answer the question that was put. What forces were operating in

Page 7375

1 the Bila Valley in June 1993? Just tell us the names of the forces.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO Frankopan Brigade, which

3 at the time was reinforced with the forced Zenica HVO Brigade, and the

4 Jure Francetic Brigade of the HVO, because all those brigades at the time

5 were in the Bila Valley.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they the only forces in the Bila Valley at

7 that time?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the HVO forces, also

9 the 306th Mountain Brigade was there.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What else?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 306th Mountain Brigade, which

12 at that time, because of a general blockade, absolutely was not

13 functioning, except --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can you please listen to the question,

15 because we haven't got much time.

16 Don't explain what they were doing and what they were not doing.

17 The question is: What forces were involved in the Bila Valley in June

18 1993? Just give the names of the forces. Don't explain anything. If

19 there's an explanation required, you'll be asked to explain.

20 You said 306th Mountain Brigade, the Frankopan Brigade, with the

21 Jure Franc etic Brigade, and anybody else, any other force?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st Zenica HVO Brigade.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Anyone else?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There were no other units,

25 but there were members of other --

Page 7376

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just

2 clarify, perhaps there was a misunderstanding, so the question is not

3 getting the proper answer. I asked which forces, not which forces were

4 acting. I don't know how it was translated, but "which forces were

5 carrying out attacks in the Bila River Valley in 1993, if any."

6 This question is on page 14, lines 4 and 5. This is why the

7 witness is explaining the actions of the HVO Brigade. Perhaps this is

8 where the misunderstanding lies. I don't know if I've helped.

9 So my question was: Who was carrying out attacks in early

10 June 1993. Your question was who was active, if I'm correct.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic, but still he

12 should have just been able to mention the names of the forces that were

13 attacking, without giving a long story. That's all I'm asking for.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

15 suggestion.

16 Q. Witness, please, if you can concentrate as much as you can to

17 give simple, direct answers, please.

18 A. Very well.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at

20 Exhibit D221, please -- I'm sorry. It's document 221, D221.

21 Can the English text be enlarged. Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, you can see that this is a telegram. It says the 306th

23 Brigade, Gabela, 910. The date is the 5th of June, 1993. I'm going to

24 quote to you --

25 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution might be in error; but on the list

Page 7377

1 communicated to us, D221 is not on it.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, D21 is not there, but D221 is

4 there. Perhaps it was recorded in the transcript erroneously. The

5 number is not clear in the transcript. I'm talking about this document,

6 Your Honours, and this is document D221, at least as far as I'm aware.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Your learned friend is throwing his

8 shoulders almost in despair.

9 Mr. Neuner, do you have this document 221 on the list that was

10 given to you?

11 MR. NEUNER: The document is not on the list which I have printed

12 out, but I could be flexible if this is helping my colleague. It's not

13 on the list which I have.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: How are you being flexible?

15 MR. NEUNER: I could be flexible, please just go on; and if it's

16 possible --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go on, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you, thank you.

19 Is it possible, Your Honours? Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, please, this is a small document. I hope that you've

21 read it. Can you please comment? I wanted to quote a part of the

22 document. It talks about Busovaca, and it says that, "We have 18 dead,

23 six seriously wounded ..."

24 So what I would like to ask you is: Does this reflect the actual

25 situation in the village of Velika Bukovica on the 5th of June, 1993, and

Page 7378

1 could you please also explain to Their Honours what was the ethnicity of

2 the population of Velika Bukovica?

3 A. Yes. The document reflects the actual state of affairs in Velika

4 Bukovica, where about 100 Bosniak citizens received an ultimatum

5 three days before that to hand over their weapons; and after they failed

6 to do that, they were attacked and they asked for help from the superior

7 command in this manner.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who attacked them?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Forces of the HVO.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Can you please tell us where you were in early June --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] excuse me, Your Honours. Can this

13 document be given an exhibit number, please?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

17 number 1203.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Husic, can you please tell us where you were in early June

22 1993?

23 A. From the 28th of May until the 12th of June, with the commander

24 of the brigade and the chief of staff and the assistant for finance, I

25 was cut off or blocked off in the village of Krpeljici, which is between

Page 7379

1 Velika Bukovica and Guca Gora.

2 Q. Did you or did you not have contacts with the part of the Command

3 of the 306th Brigade at Rudnik?

4 A. Only until the end of May. As of June 1st, we did not have

5 contacts with any of our units. We had no control with any of our units

6 or with any other inhabited place.

7 Q. And what was the situation vis a vis the Corps Command? Were

8 there any contacts with them?

9 A. The contacts with the Corps Command were established only by the

10 three duty officers from the main command post of the 306th Mountain

11 Brigade at Rudnik. Up until the time that the Command, on the 6th [as

12 interpreted] of June at 2000 hours in the evening, was shelled; and then

13 after that, even those communications were questionable for a certain

14 period of time. I'm not sure exactly for how long.

15 Q. Mr. Husic, can you stop for a second for me to correct the

16 transcript. It says here that you said that: "On the 6th of June until

17 2.00 p.m., it was possible to communicate."

18 But I understood you to say that this was possible until the

19 2nd of June. Was that what you actually said?

20 A. Yes, you heard me correctly. I did say the 2nd of June, because

21 on the 2nd of June attacks began on these villages, and that was when all

22 the communication was cut off.

23 Q. Thank you. I asked you now about the situation in the corps.

24 Did you have contacts with the corps, you, from the place where you were

25 blocked off?

Page 7380

1 A. No, not with the corps or with anyone else.

2 Q. And this part of the brigade that you said was blocked off, where

3 you were also, did you, after the 2nd of June, have contacts with the

4 rest of the brigade at Rudnik?

5 A. No.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your

7 Honours.

8 Can the witness now look at Exhibit 999, please.

9 Q. Mr. Husic, you can see that this is a document of the 5th of

10 June, 1993, an order sent to the Command of the 306th Brigade and Command

11 of the Bosnian Krajina Operations Group.

12 It's a short document. Can you please read it, and then I will

13 ask you to comment. Have you seen this document before?

14 A. This document could not have been sent to the brigade commander

15 at the time. The commander was blocked off, and the document actually

16 speaks about the villages of Velika Bukovica, Ricice, and Bandol being

17 attacked. Bandol, at that point in time, was already burned down by the

18 HVO forces.

19 Q. Just let me ask you, Mr. Husic, what is the basis of your

20 assertion that the commander could not have received this document?

21 A. As of the 28th, I was continually with the commander, with the

22 chief of staff, and with another colleague, a deputy -- an assistant

23 whose name I mentioned earlier; and we didn't have contacts with anyone

24 until the 8th of June, 1993.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can put this

Page 7381

1 document away.

2 I would like the witness now to look at Exhibit 258, please. For

3 the transcript, this is a report and proposals of the Bosanska Krajina

4 Operations Group of the 5th of June, 1993.

5 Q. I would ask you, Witness, to focus on the bottom third of the

6 document. This is the English version, the part that begins in the

7 second page of the English version, and, Witness, if you can find the

8 part that begins: "It was ordered for Esed Sipic to organize the units."

9 It's somewhere in the middle of the page. Can you see that?

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 Q. Can you read that part?

12 A. I've read it.

13 Q. Can you comment? What is said here is that the communication

14 with Sipic has been cut off, and "we don't have the information if he is

15 already on his way and how far he has come." Can you please comment on

16 this document?

17 A. This document could not have been delivered to Sipic because

18 there was no way of establishing the contacts between Sipic and Travnik

19 at that particular time.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

21 Can we put this document away now.

22 I would like the witness to look at Exhibit 1000 now, please.

23 For the transcript, this is a response from the 3rd Corps

24 Command, sent to the 306th Brigade, dated the 8th of June, 1993.

25 Q. I would like to ask you to read the document and to briefly

Page 7382

1 comment on it.

2 Have you seen this document? Did the brigade actually receive it

3 at that time?

4 A. No. This is still the time period where Mr. Sipic, as the

5 commander, and I was with him, was unable to receive the document. It

6 could have possibly reached the main command post at Rudnik, but I am not

7 aware of the document.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

9 Can this document be put away, please, and can the witness be

10 shown Exhibit 1001. For the transcript, this is a telegram of the 306th

11 Brigade of the 8th of June, 1993.

12 Q. I would also like to ask you to comment as to whether this

13 telegram could have been sent from the place where the commander, the

14 chief of staff, and you were.

15 A. No, absolutely not.

16 Q. Can you please comment on this?

17 A. It could have been sent only from the main command post at

18 Rudnik, which was also totally isolated, and we did not have any

19 communication with them or the possibility of communication at that time.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

21 Your Honours, if at this time this document can be put away, and

22 can the witness please look at Exhibit 998.

23 Q. Witness, before the document appears on the screen, I would like

24 to ask you this: Did you know the signature of the commander of the

25 brigade, Esed Sipic?

Page 7383

1 A. Yes, I did, absolutely.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Could the witness now please be shown the last page of this

4 document, the last page both in the English and the Bosnian version. The

5 English version, too, please.

6 Q. I would like to ask you this: Is what you see here, and you told

7 us that know the signature of Mr. Sipic, is this the signature of the

8 brigade commander, Mr. Esed Sipic?

9 A. No, absolutely not. We could also see his signature on the

10 previous couple of documents, so it can be compared.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I see. Could we now please go back

12 to the first page of this document.

13 Q. Please take a look at the heading of this document. Is this a

14 complete heading of the document? Can you see that?

15 A. No. This is not a heading, because there should be the name of

16 the brigade there, the 306th Brigade, if that's where the document is

17 coming from.

18 Q. I see. Did the documents that the brigade sent go out

19 incomplete, as far as you know?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can you draw some conclusions based on the fact that there is a

22 portion of the heading missing and also that you don't recognise the

23 signature of Mr. Sipic?

24 A. If this is a document from the 306th Brigade, it's possible that

25 it's a draft but not the final document that was accepted.

Page 7384

1 Q. All right. I would now like to ask you one more time, and you

2 talked about the 7th Muslim Brigade yesterday and its presence in the

3 Bila Valley.

4 At the given time that we can see in this document, in

5 mid-May 1993, were there organised parts or units of the 7th Muslim

6 Brigade active in the Bila Valley?

7 A. Absolutely, no.

8 Q. Would you agree with me -- do you agree with me that, during the

9 proofing, I showed you this document and that you've read it in detail?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you see here that some different variants or scenarios are

12 mentioned here in the event of an attack by the Chetnik forces, and then

13 a scenario or a variant of an attack by HVO units?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the second page of

15 the document, please. Yes. This is what the document looks like,

16 Your Honour. This is the second page. It's blank, as it appears here.

17 Could we now see the third page, which will be the third page in

18 the English translation.

19 Q. Here, mention is made of a coordinated attack of Chetniks and HVO

20 forces, that variant.

21 Now, let me ask you this: What happened around the 6th of June,

22 1993, was this in concord with any of the variants that are mentioned

23 here in this document? Does this actually correspond to that?

24 A. Absolutely not, because the document mentions here the variants

25 or the scenarios that were theoretically discussed in the brigade from

Page 7385

1 the time when we were aware that there were contacts going on between the

2 Chetniks and the HVO. This was in mid-April 1993. But something quite

3 different happened, and nothing from this document was actually

4 implemented.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

6 I don't have any more questions related to this document.

7 Your Honour, this is the time when we are supposed to take a

8 break.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

10 We'll then take a break and come back at 4.00.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Can the witness be shown Exhibit 234 now. Exhibit 234.

17 And while we're waiting for it to appear on our screens, let me

18 state for the record that this is a report of the head of the Observers

19 Mission, Ambassador Thibault, of the 19th of June, 1993.

20 Please turn to page 4 of the English version and page 4 of the

21 Bosnian version; therefore, page 4 in both versions.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7386

1 (redacted)

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7387











11 Pages 7387-7388 redacted. Private session















Page 7389

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in the open session.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Video VD45, please.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

10 Q. I didn't ask you before asking that the video be played that you

11 stop the video clip whenever you recognise someone.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we rewind the tape a bit?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is me.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

16 Q. Let me ask you this: We saw this piece of footage. Can you tell

17 us when it was made?

18 A. It was made on the 11th of June, in the morning hours, at

19 Guca Gora. It was broadcast by the Bosnian TV on the 11th of June at --

20 in the evening hours at around 1930.

21 Q. Which year was that?

22 A. 1993.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question. When was the

24 inside part of the Guca Gora monastery destroyed? I'm talking about the

25 inside.

Page 7390

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The footage shows that, at the

2 time when this was filmed, the monastery had not been damaged inside, or

3 rather, its interior had not been damaged.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is not the question that I

5 put to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

7 ... was made.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] During this trial, we heard

9 that, at some stage, the inside part of the monastery was destroyed. I

10 was just wondering whether you were in a position to tell me when, if you

11 know. Maybe you don't.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, let us clarify something. You heard the question put by

16 Her Honour. It was said that the monastery had been destroyed inside.

17 To your knowledge, in the course of 1993 and onwards, was the

18 monastery -- monastery's interior destroyed; and if so, to what extent?

19 A. No. I believe that Her Honour did not understand the footage,

20 because the anchorperson, before playing the footage, speaks about the

21 fact that the HVO had made it public that the members of the Muslim

22 Forces had destroyed the monastery; whereas, we were filming this in

23 order to deny that piece of information.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

25 ... because I believe there has been a misunderstanding, and maybe this

Page 7391

1 is my mistake. I am not talking about this video. I could see that, in

2 this video, the monastery doesn't seem destroyed, either inside or

3 outside. What I said is that, during the course of this trial, we were

4 told that the Guca Gora monastery had been destroyed inside the building.

5 If you know, well, you said you didn't know. It's fine. That's

6 all I wanted to know.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be allowed to

8 put a question to the witness.

9 Q. Please, Witness, was this monastery ever destroyed on the inside?

10 A. No, absolutely not. There was slight damage to it, which

11 implied -- or rather, there was just traces of some greasy paint having

12 been dobbed around and that the organ was damaged and some of the

13 archives of the monastery. But even to this day, one can see that during

14 the war, the interior of the monastery was not destroyed.

15 Q. Therefore, was the interior of the monastery ever destroyed

16 during the war?

17 A. No, it was not.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this video be

19 assigned an exhibit number, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registrar's records indicate that this has

24 already been given an exhibit number, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't believe that

Page 7392

1 that is the case. We have only recently received this video footage.

2 Perhaps you're referring to another piece of footage provided to us by

3 the OTP. I don't believe that this is the case in relation to this

4 particular footage.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We apologise. We just made a slight

6 mistake.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1204.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then the video clip is

9 Exhibit 1204.

10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. Let us go back to the damage that you referred to?

13 When was it made? You spoke of the paint, of the organ having

14 been damaged, and the archives. When did this take place?

15 A. It was after the relevant period; although, I can't tell you

16 precisely when. You know that yesterday we discussed a period of time

17 when occasionally armed groups arrived in Guca Gora and were responsible

18 for the incidents we discussed yesterday.

19 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: When it came to these

20 incidents, excesses, or crimes, and I'm speaking of the June of 1993 and

21 onwards, were you able to cooperate with the HVO forces and their

22 commands in obtaining information?

23 A. No, absolutely not. It was not possible to have any cooperation

24 with them, since they refused any contacts.

25 Q. Thank you. Let me now turn to the events in the village of

Page 7393

1 Maline on the 8th of June, 1993.

2 In the month of June of 1993, did you come to learn of some

3 events involving the Croat population of the village of Maline on the

4 8th of June, 1993?

5 A. Yes. We first received word of something having happened there

6 on the 13th of June. At that time, a part of the Command of the 306th

7 met, and the assistant commander for security informed us that there were

8 indications of --

9 MR. NEUNER: Sorry to interrupt. But the last question, the way

10 it was put, was again a leading one. The witness was directly asked

11 whether some events involving the Croat population in Maline on a

12 particular day he could testify about, and so far this witness has not

13 talked about this event.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Neuner, it seems to me as if that kind of

15 question is directing the attention of the witness to a particular spot,

16 on a particular date, with respect to a particular population, to tell us

17 what he knows about that.

18 MR. NEUNER: This is correct, Your Honours. But the way it was

19 phrased, it is particularly put in a particular village, against a

20 particular ethnicity, on a particular day; and an alternative would have

21 been, "What has happened at the beginning of June of 1993," or something

22 like that. But the way this was put, it's directly focusing the

23 witness's attention to talk about one particular incident only.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know, for me, this is an issue that is alleged

25 specifically in the indictment, and I can't see why it cannot be

Page 7394

1 specifically pointed out to the witness.

2 MR. NEUNER: I'm not saying it can't specifically be pointed out.

3 I'm just saying the witness, if he has knowledge about it, would come to

4 it in his testimony, anyway. Just the way this is put now is going to

5 the very heart of the matter.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, that is the alleged thing. It's as good

7 as saying, sir, the accused here is charged with this kind of crime on

8 this particular day, at this particular place, against this particular

9 group. What do you know about it?" It is the same thing as saying that.

10 MR. NEUNER: I just wanted to put my observation on the record.

11 I can be overruled by this and I understood that.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have another difficulty with

14 this. The witness doesn't answer the questions. Madam Vidovic asked him

15 if on the 8th of June, in Maline, some particular events took place

16 involving the Croat population; and then he says, "Yes." Then he starts

17 talking about another event.

18 So may I invite the witness to answer specifically to the

19 questions put to him by Madam Vidovic. Please avoid telling something

20 about entirely different things.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 To go back to the objection, the objection is overruled.

23 Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, I hope you understood this. Could you please answer the

Page 7395

1 question that I posed, whether you learned about some events and what was

2 happening to the part of the village where the Croatian ethnicity lived?

3 This was on the 8th of June.

4 A. Yes, and that's what I answered the first time.

5 Q. Could you tell us what it is that you learned?

6 A. I learned, on the 12th of June, when, for the first time, a part

7 of the Command of the 306th Mountain Brigade met, the assistant commander

8 for security, Mr. Delalic, stated that, in addition to numerous

9 disinformation that could be heard during the conflict, there were

10 indications that, in the area of Maline and Bikosi, a number of

11 Croatians, people of Croatian ethnicity, were killed.

12 The brigade commander, Mr. Sipic, ordered an investigation into

13 this.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Could the witness now please be shown document D810. For the

16 record, this is a document from the 306th Brigade. Under the text, the

17 date of the 10th of June, 1993 appears.

18 Q. Witness, can you read this text, and let's see if you know

19 anything about --

20 MR. NEUNER: Before the witness reads this document, can I put an

21 observation on the record.

22 This was put forward by the Bar Table motion by the Defence; and

23 at the time in the Prosecution's response, we suggested that a fuller

24 translation is provided of that document.

25 As I think it was explicitly stated in the Prosecution's

Page 7396

1 response, this little snippet, it's the second line of the document,

2 "through the network," is, so to speak, in the translation visible, but

3 not in the original.

4 So we, at the time, objected on the basis of this -- to this

5 document, and suggested that a more legible copy would be produced or may

6 be produced by the Defence. And as I can see here, it is still the same

7 copy, so the B/C/S is an incomplete copy.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, are you able to remember what the

9 decision of the Chamber said on that point?

10 MR. NEUNER: I'm not exactly in a position to say now whether the

11 decision contained any particular finding. I just note that this is

12 still a "D," meaning a pre-trial number, so the document was not admitted

13 at the time.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have seen another "D" document a little

15 earlier, which we were told has already been admitted through the Bar

16 Table motion. So it is quite possible that these documents have not sort

17 of been assigned, what do you call that, exhibit numbers. For me, or for

18 the Trial Chamber, to be able to respond to what you are saying, I would

19 like to know what the decision of the Trial Chamber was on that point.

20 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you want to say something?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to say

22 this: This document was admitted on the basis of a decision by the Trial

23 Chamber of 5 March 2008, but it has not been assigned a number yet.

24 As for what the Prosecutor was saying, that the document is

25 incomplete, I could not agree with that.

Page 7397

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, according to the decision, it looks like it

3 was admitted. And, Mr. Neuner, what is your complaint about this

4 document? What is not legible?

5 MR. NEUNER: We argued at the time that this, "through the

6 network," which is the upper part of the English translation next to the

7 "231" and circled, that this portion of the document is not reflected in

8 the B/C/S original. There are actually a couple of objections which we

9 had at the time against this document.


11 MR. NEUNER: There is something, but nothing which led us to

12 conclude, on the Prosecution side, that this means "through the network."

13 These are illegible items which are displayed there.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I see, on the B/C/S, there is

15 something that is not very legible; and then somewhere there is "231" on

16 the same line. It looks like that's your learned friend's basis of

17 objection, that that part is not legible. Do you have anything to say?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's nothing I can

19 say. I do not possess a better version at this point in time, and I

20 apologise to the Prosecutor. I will try and see if we can find a better

21 copy. At this moment, I do not have it; but in any case, I will not ask

22 the witness anything about this part of the document.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And maybe, then, the logical solution would then

24 be to strike out "through the network" in the English version for the

25 time being, until --

Page 7398

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document has been admitted through a decision

3 of the Trial Chamber of the 5th of March, 2008. The Trial Chamber would

4 like to add that the words "through the network" on the English version

5 be struck out, for the reason that the B/C/S version thereof is illegible

6 and it is not possible to determine whether those are the words mentioned

7 in the B/C/S.

8 Thank you. You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness, I hope you were able to read this document while we were

11 having this discussion. Do you have any idea what these letters "DR" at

12 the bottom of the document mean?

13 A. Yes, I've read the document. These are the initials of the

14 assistant commander for security in the 3rd Corps, Dugalic, Ramiz.

15 Q. You can see the date here, 10 June 1993. That's below the text.

16 Tell us, please, how would you comment on this document? Does this

17 correspond to what you knew about the events at the time?

18 A. I learned about this event a bit later, because I was cut off in

19 the Krpeljici village, and this was the time when we were just beginning

20 to be able to move around. But this does correspond to what was

21 happening at the time.

22 Q. All right. Now, tell me, was the Brigade Command informed of the

23 outcome of the investigation? My understanding was that Commander Sipic

24 had ordered an investigation. As the command, did you get any feedback,

25 and what was it?

Page 7399

1 A. Yes. We did get information about this at the first meeting of

2 the Command following the event, this was on the 15th of June, 1993, when

3 the assistant commander for security, Mr. Delalic, informed the commander

4 that the result of the investigation showed the following: That a group

5 of armed and masked individuals, whose identity the military police of

6 the 306th Brigade was unable to determine, intercepted the military

7 police of the 306th Mountain Brigade while they were escorting this

8 column of Croatian people towards the village of Mehurici; and under

9 threat of arms, even pointing or putting the muzzle of the weapon into

10 the mouth of one policeman, took away a number of Croats from them.

11 And, at this time, because of all the disinformation that we

12 mentioned earlier, and mention was made of a huge number of people, tens

13 of people killed in different areas, we could not find out anything more

14 in any detail. I think that he learned at the time what the number of

15 people concerned was. I can't quite tell you now, but I think about 20.

16 Q. Was it established, according to what you know, who the

17 perpetrators were or not?

18 A. No. We really wanted to establish this, both the police and the

19 Security Service, but also other services of the brigade. Because this

20 was addressed to us, this was at our expense because it had happened in

21 our area of responsibility. All of these services really wanted to

22 establish the truth. I know this because we sent policemen, who had been

23 intercepted. We sent them to try and identify, among these -- from among

24 these armed groups, to identify the people by observing those areas where

25 they moved -- through which they're moved. However, we were never able

Page 7400

1 to find out the exact information.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to ask this question before this part

3 of the evidence disappears.

4 You said, sir, at line 20 of page 38: "Yes. We did get

5 information about this at the first meeting of the Command following the

6 event."

7 Now, my question to you is: Who did you get this information

8 from?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the first meeting of a part of

10 the Command, the assistant commander for security, Asim Delalic, informed

11 on this.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, do I understand you to say that the military

13 police of the 306th Brigade, from whom these people were taken, made no

14 report on the day the event took place?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know when they

16 drafted their report; but the brigade commander and I, the chief of staff

17 and the assistant for finance, we met and we discussed this separately,

18 separate from the other parts of the unit, so that we didn't know of this

19 earlier.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whether the military police of the

21 306th Brigade, from whom these people were taken, ever made a report at

22 all?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: When was that report made?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 15th of June, the assistant

Page 7401

1 commander for security informed, in other words, the commander, the

2 brigade commander, ordered him to sent a report to the 3rd Corps.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to the question. Did the military police

4 of the 306th Brigade make a report about this incident to your Command?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not have any insight into

6 what the military police was doing. The assistant commander for security

7 reported on their activities.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about the security police. If

9 you know about the military police making a report, tell us that you

10 know, because you said you do know a little earlier. If you don't know,

11 say you don't know. Please, we want short answers here.

12 My question is such that, you can say "yes" or "no," you don't

13 know whether the military police made a report at all about this

14 incident?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Let me just ask you a bit more, so that we clarify this.

19 Did you know the way the brigade functioned?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did you know who was the superior to the military police, so whom

22 did the military police report to?

23 A. Yes, to the assistant commander for security.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

25 MR. NEUNER: I'm just seeing so far the two questions, they are

Page 7402

1 not dangerous, as such, but they are again phrased in a leading way.

2 Maybe my colleague can just ask, "Who was the superior," and so on and so

3 forth.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really should be a

5 magician to phrase my questions this way. I have to specify which part

6 of the brigade I'm talking about. I'm talking about the military police,

7 and I have to ask who their superior was. I don't see any other way that

8 I could phrase this question, and I really would appreciate -- I do

9 understand that the Prosecutor is doing his job, but also we have a

10 limited time for this -- for this questioning. We are just wasting time

11 with these objections. I really feel that the last two objections are

12 absolutely ungrounded.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're going to deal with this last one objection,

14 not the two.

15 The question is allowed.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Please, I just don't remember what you responded. I asked you to

18 whom the military police submits a report.

19 A. Yes. I answered the assistant commander for security; and in

20 this case, that was Mr. Delalic.

21 Q. What you testified -- actually, who did you find out from about

22 these events?

23 A. I found this information out also from the assistant commander

24 for security, Mr. Delalic.

25 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you the following: What were the

Page 7403

1 results of the investigation, in terms of the perpetrators? Was it known

2 to whom, or to which unit, they belonged, more or less?

3 A. No, I explained this earlier. They were -- they belonged to the

4 foreign forces, but we don't know which unit it was.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

6 The military police belonging to your unit, was this military

7 police obligated to report to their higher body, but by according to the

8 function?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In this case, this was

10 actually the assistant commander for security who submitted the report to

11 his superior; and his superior, actually with this document that we are

12 looking at on the screen, was asking him precisely to do that.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Husic, do you know if at a later stage there was an

16 investigation conducted into these events?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. And why don't you know?

19 A. Well, this is not in my purview. We had other duties.

20 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move to a different topic. I'm

21 going to ask you about some events from 1995.

22 When you provided your particulars for the transcript, you said

23 that you worked in the morale sector of the 3rd Corps Command. Do you

24 remember from when you performed these duties?

25 A. Yes. I came to this post in late February or early March of

Page 7404

1 1994, to this section for morale, propaganda, and religious affairs. At

2 the time, I was deputy to the assistant commander. Later, I became

3 assistant commander in the 3rd Corps.

4 Q. Can you please briefly describe exactly what your area of work

5 was?

6 A. Our work, in the morale section, is quite broad. First of all,

7 it was our duty to act politically and to explain the platform and the

8 objectives of our fight. Each soldier had to have an explanation that

9 the objective of our struggle was a united, unified, and indivisible

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 We also needed to inform fighters about all the events, gather

12 information that had to do with combat readiness in units. And if

13 anything needed to be done in that respect, and to affirm our struggle in

14 such a way, that we would explain that the International Community would

15 be on the side of that army that would adhere to all international laws

16 and the Geneva Conventions, and which had the backing and support of the

17 people, which does not sew and disseminate fear, or does not destroy,

18 burn, or in any other way destroy and violate these general principles

19 that were put before us.

20 We acted on duties to inform, to combat hostile propaganda, the

21 welfare of the families, the care of fighters after wounding, and we

22 carried out many other duties, too.

23 Q. And in that sense, were you receiving instructions or orders from

24 the Supreme Command Staff?

25 A. Yes, regularly, always, both instructions and orders. We had

Page 7405

1 training sessions and seminars pursuant to plans that they drafted.

2 Q. Thank you. A little bit earlier, speaking about the range of

3 your duties, you said that you also dealt with the question of fighters

4 who were killed, but I actually want to ask you something else.

5 What was the position of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

6 leadership in terms of enemy soldiers? So I'm not talking about the

7 soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'd like you to focus on

8 the position of the Supreme Command Staff and the command of your corps,

9 in terms of enemy soldiers.

10 A. It was clear right from the start that fighting for a united,

11 indivisible Bosnia-Herzegovina and its three peoples implied winning over

12 the people. By sowing fear and hatred and killings, this could not be

13 achieved. So, in order to stimulate the soldiers to kill as few enemy

14 soldiers as possible, we, at the time -- actually, we gave 25 monthly

15 soldiers' salaries for each captured enemy soldier in order to motivate

16 the fighters, whenever they had the opportunity, instead of killing, to

17 capture enemy fighters, so that in that way we would be different from

18 those forces who were destroying and blowing apart Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You gave them 25 what? The transcript is not

22 quite clear.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We gave them the amount in marks,

24 which was the currency in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time, amounting

25 to the sum of 25 soldiers' monthly salaries.

Page 7406

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. For what?

3 A. For each captured enemy soldier.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Twenty-five soldiers' monthly salaries. You gave

5 that to who, to the whole unit, or to share, or to one person, one

6 soldier who captured?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Each individual who captured an

8 enemy soldier, pursuant to an order of the commander --


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They would receive --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: They received the salary of twenty-five soldiers.

12 A very rich army.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The standard in Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina at the time was very low. Our salaries were just 4 marks.

15 But for each captured soldier, the person who captured the soldier, I'm

16 talking about captured enemy soldiers, that person who captured the enemy

17 soldier would receive 100 marks.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Okay. We understand you better now. Thank you.

20 Now we would like you to look at Exhibit [as interpreted] D1002,

21 please.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, while we're

23 waiting for the document to appear, this is a document of the 3rd Corps

24 Command, dated the 10th of July, 1995.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. I'm sorry to do this. The

Page 7407

1 transcript says "Exhibit D1002." Is it a document or an exhibit?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "D", Your Honour. This not an

3 exhibit. I don't know if I said "Exhibit."

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The transcript says so.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

6 Q. Witness, I would like you to look at this document and to tell us

7 if you recognise this document.

8 A. Yes. This is a document from the commander's office, from the

9 General Staff. We passed it down to our subordinate units from the

10 3rd Corps, and this document was sent out via my section.

11 Q. Now I would like to ask you --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the bottom of the

13 document, please. Can we scroll down to see the entire document, both in

14 English -- in the English, actually, it's page 2. It's the next page.

15 Q. What I want to ask you is this: Can you briefly explain the

16 principle of passing down documents? What happens to a document? How

17 does a document reach you, and then what happens after that with it? How

18 is it disseminated further, if it is disseminated?

19 A. If we're talking about a document of the superior command, we

20 would receive this document with a packet communication. We would look

21 at it; and if it was a document for subordinate units, we would then

22 place or mark it as something that should be delivered to all units or

23 dispatched to all units. Then we would send it to the office, where all

24 the documents were typed and disseminated further.

25 The documents that were being drafted for the superior command,

Page 7408

1 after they would be processed and completed, we would also send to the

2 office; and, sometimes, it was enough just to place an arrow facing down

3 to indicate that it was going to subordinate, lower-ranking unit, or an

4 arrow facing up, indicating that it was going to the superior command, so

5 that you did not have to write down each time on the document something

6 that was known or implied.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who authored this document?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document came from the

9 Supreme Command Staff, so I cannot know who authored it.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It says, "Halid Husic." I just wanted to be

11 sure --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am the one who dispatched it

13 further. I am not the person who drafted the document. I just

14 dispatched or forwarded the document. I don't know who wrote it in the

15 Staff.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: This "Halid" here refers to you. Actually, it's

17 "Halid Husic," and it should have been "Halim Husic."

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's all I wanted to know. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to go back to the

21 contents of the document.

22 Q. Can you please tell us what this document is seeking or

23 requesting?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the previous page

25 on the English -- in the English version.

Page 7409

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With this document, the State

2 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners, through the General Staff, was

3 asking all the units of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina to -- or asking that all the captured enemy soldiers are not

5 killed, and that as soon as the information or the particulars of the

6 captured soldiers should be sent to them as soon as, because this service

7 for the exchange of prisoners of war needed to have this information.

8 This was something that we worked on intensively.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. We would like to ask you to read this first dashed paragraph.

11 I'm actually going to quote. It says that The commands of all corps of

12 the RBiH Army and the commands of all their subordinated units be advised

13 to capture members of the enemy formations in all situations when the

14 lives and health of the members of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina are not jeopardised. Then the members of these formations

16 are listed.

17 A. Well, this fit within the general objectives of our fight, and

18 this is something that we discussed and intensely worked on.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

20 given an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

24 number 1205.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 7410

1 And, Madam Vidovic, while I'm on the floor, minus questions by

2 the Chamber and other people, the four hours of Defence have about five

3 to seven minutes remaining.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have too many

5 questions left, but I don't believe I will be able to cover all of them

6 in five to seven minutes. But I will do my best to finish as soon as

7 possible. I will definitely keep that in mind.

8 Well, I don't remember now if we did get an exhibit number for

9 this document. Okay. Very well.

10 Maybe we can show the witness now the Exhibit 1047. For the

11 transcript, this is a document of the morale sector of the 3rd Corps,

12 dated the 25th of July, 1995.

13 Q. First of all, Witness, do you see this document, and do you

14 recognise it?

15 A. Yes. I see this is a document that I forwarded, and this is my

16 signature on the document.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we please zoom in

18 on the bottom part of the document. In the English version, I think that

19 this is on the following page.

20 Your Honours, I would like the witness now to look at the

21 initials here. In the electronic version, you cannot really see them

22 that easily, so I would like the witness very quickly to be shown the

23 hard copy of the document.

24 Q. Witness, please, can you look at the initials on the document?

25 I'm going to ask you something about that a little later. Can you see if

Page 7411

1 this document is signed or not?

2 A. It's not signed, and the initials are "MM." It's Mustafa Music,

3 who was the clerk in the Supreme Command Staff, Morale Department.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3 in the

5 English, please.

6 Your Honours, I have just asked for this to be shown. It's

7 page 3 of the English version. Can you please scroll up? All right.

8 Very well. This is good.

9 Q. You mentioned Mr. Mustafa Music. Witness, I don't know if this

10 was recorded in the transcript. Yes, it was.

11 You said that this document is not signed. Do you know why that

12 is so?

13 A. This is not the customary method of work of the Morale

14 Department, that the commander should be signing this document. These

15 documents are usually signed by the assistant commander. In this

16 particular case, that is not the case. We have the commander in the

17 signature, but it doesn't actually have a signature, and it's a little

18 bit unusual in that sense.

19 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Husic: In case this was an encoded

20 document, would you be able to see who actually signed the document?

21 A. No, you wouldn't.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very well.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was this document encoded?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, actually, I wouldn't

25 say that it was encoded. I don't see that it was encoded.

Page 7412

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we scroll down the

3 document so that the Trial Chamber can look at this.

4 Can we go back to the first page of the document, please. You

5 can look at the English version, the top part of the document, where we

6 could see if there are any indications that the document was encoded.

7 Can we also look at the top part of the Bosnian version.

8 Is that the entire document that you can see? Thank you.

9 There are no such markings, so, Your Honour, this document can be

10 removed.

11 Q. And, Mr. Husic, I would like to ask you -- I have some questions,

12 I don't have much time, about the July action in Vozuca in 1995. Did you

13 play any role in this action?

14 A. No. At this time, I was at the Orahovo IKM, and I was with

15 the -- en route with the forces of the 3rd Corps towards Sarajevo.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please be shown

17 document D863.

18 You can see that this is a document from 23rd August 1995, signed

19 by Mufti Effendi Halil Mehtic. I would like to ask you is this: What

20 was the relationship between the Effendi Halil Mehtic in 1993 up until

21 the end of the war, if any [as interpreted]?

22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what a mufti is?

25 A. A mufti is a clerical duty, a duty of a cleric that would be

Page 7413

1 equivalent to a bishop in the Catholic Church.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please -- can I just goat

3 back to the transcript. I think my question was omitted. Now I can see

4 it, yes, I think it has been.

5 Your Honour, give me just a moment, please.

6 My question that did not clearly -- that was not clearly written

7 down in the transcript was: Was there any kind of relationship between

8 the mufti, Mehtic, Halil Mehtic, and the corps?

9 THE WITNESS: No, except the relationships that the corps had

10 with any other institution, the civilian authorities, the clerk

11 authorities, with respect to those services that were provided by those

12 institutions.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Could you now explain to the Trial Chamber what the title of

15 "Mufti" exactly means?

16 A. In the Islamic community, the mufti is equivalent to a bishop in

17 the Christian or Catholic Church for a certain area.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is "Effendi" a name of a person or is it also a

20 title in the Muslim religion?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] it is a title.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is its equivalent in the Catholic Church?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A cleric, a priest, any religious

24 person.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it is acceptable, in the --

Page 7414

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The honourable reverend.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it acceptable, in the Muslim religion, to call

3 a person "Mufti Effendi" or "Effendi Mufti," so-and-so?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order of these titles has its

5 own logic, in the same manner that in the civilian life, professors and

6 doctors are addressed with certain titles. The Halil Effendi Mufti

7 Mehtic means "the honourable mufti", and if we add his duty, then we know

8 this is an official cleric.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And his duty would be mufti?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. I have a question, too.

13 Witness, please, you said that the civilian authorities would

14 provide services to the military institutions. Could you give us some

15 details on this and tell us what services were provided to the military

16 institutions?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Civilian authorities would provide

18 arms and logistic support to the army. Cultural institutions would help

19 in organizing entertainment and cultural events in the army. Religious

20 institutions and persons would help in organizing the religious life

21 within units.

22 But this document that we see before us has nothing to do with

23 that. This is something completely different.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was not referring

25 to this document. It's just after an answer that you gave us. About

Page 7415

1 what you said, there is another thing I would like to know. I would like

2 to know whether the local civilian institutions also provided premises

3 where units could be billeted, for example.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Husic, let's just go back to the content of this document.

8 Looking at it, it would appear that the mufti is issuing a certificate

9 that a member belonged to the armija and, as such, was killed at the

10 Vozuca battlefield. Could you give a comment on the document?

11 A. Yes. All army members -- for all army members, the command --

12 the garrison command would issue certificates, but only in those cases

13 where someone who may have been a foreigner and not a member of the Army

14 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 For those persons, we did not issue certificates. They were

16 issued by some other institutions; and, in this case, it was by the

17 mufti. The fact that he mentioned there that someone was a member of

18 something, that's his problem, because was he a member -- had he been a

19 member of the army, he would not have been issued a certificate by the

20 mufti.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Your Honour, could we please have a number assigned for this

23 document. This is, again, a document that was entered through the Bar

24 Table, so I just want to make sure that it doesn't receive two numbers.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 7416

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Husic, I would just briefly like to dwell on the Farz action,

3 and I hope the Prosecutor will not say that this is a leading question.

4 Did you participate in any activities related to the Farz action

5 on the Vozuca battlefield in 19 -- in September 1995?

6 A. Yes. As part of the 3rd Corps Command, I participated actively

7 in the preparation and carrying out of the Operation Farz.

8 Q. You said "preparations." Could you please describe briefly what

9 you mean?

10 A. I mean preparations and planning for combat activities, which

11 means that in all segments, in my case the segment dealing with combat

12 morale, a plan should be drafted for morale support for this action,

13 which implied the implementation in all units that were participating in

14 this operation, and support in implementing it and controlling it.

15 Q. Could you tell us, in these preparations for an action, was

16 there -- did anything deal with the conduct of combatants with their

17 handling of war prisoners?

18 A. Yes. We again, before every action, which was the case every

19 time, we would again carry out morale preparations. We insisted, what we

20 could see earlier through some of the documents, that they should refrain

21 from killing, that they should capture enemy combatants, and so forth.

22 Q. Do you recall, did you personally participate in combat

23 activities within the Farz OPERATION?

24 A. Yes. On the first day of the combat operation, we entered the

25 combat operation zone, and the assistant commander for operations and

Page 7417

1 planning --

2 MR. NEUNER: I just want to put it on the record, the last two

3 questions were again leading. The witness has already answered, so I

4 didn't stand up at the first one, and this one is the same.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may respond.

6 I really don't know how to phrase my questions except to ask the

7 witness if he had participated in these combat actions. Perhaps my

8 colleague can assist me. How would I phrase this question on the

9 witness's participation and involvement on this operation?

10 MR. NEUNER: Just you may wish to ask, "How were you

11 participating in Operation Farz, which you mentioned," and then the

12 witness goes on; or, "In your morale section, what were you doing in

13 order to participate in Operation Farz?"

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness described

15 what he did. What the Prosecutor suggested just now, how I should phrase

16 my question, that would, indeed, be a leading question. All I asked was

17 whether he participated in the Farz operation, and the witness replied.

18 So I really think we're just wasting time on these objections.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I guess the Prosecutor's question is, "What

20 were you doing," not, "Were you doing A, B, C, D?" Your question was,

21 "Did you personally participate in combat activities?" That's the basis

22 of his objection. He starts his question with a, "What, what were you

23 doing?" You sort of suggested he was participating in combat operations.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But that's the

25 only fact that I mentioned there in order to elicit a response that

Page 7418

1 really have to do with some other questions that I feel are important.

2 Perhaps I could have gone about this in such a way as to lose some

3 five minutes or so.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. As I indicated the other

5 day, if we do it correctly the first time, then we gain time. If you do

6 it incorrectly, then your learned friend keeps standing up and we lose

7 more time.

8 Shall we take a break at this stage and come back at quarter to

9 6.00.

10 Court adjourned.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. We discussed the Farz action, and I would like to ask you the

16 following: Where were you, if you can recall, on the 10th of September,

17 1995?

18 A. Yes. I was at the command post of the 35th Division, at the

19 place called "Babylon."

20 Q. Thank you. And how long did you stay in these areas where the

21 combat activities were going on?

22 A. I only entered the area of the combat activities during the day,

23 and I stayed there for about four to five hours.

24 Q. I was referring to days. I wanted to know how many days you

25 stayed in that area?

Page 7419

1 A. In that area, I remained a bit longer, but I was not within the

2 zone of the combat activities. In that zone, I spent only one day.

3 Q. All right. I want to ask you the following: During these combat

4 activities, within the Farz operation or after it, did you get any

5 information about some war prisoners, prisoners of war?

6 A. No. Among other things, because the morale section, by its

7 function during the combat activities, have nothing to do with the

8 prisoners of war.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What day was it when you were in the zone of

10 activity, this one day you say you were in the zone of activity?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was on the 10th of September,

12 1995.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said, on the 10th of September, you were at

14 the IKM of the 35th Division in Babylon.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the place, Babylon.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that where the activity was?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few kilometres before this place

18 was where the combat activities were being carried out.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Q. During these combat activities, did you communicate, did you have

22 contact with Fadil Hasanagic, the division commander?

23 A. From the Corps Command, Mr. Ribo and I were at his command post

24 also before the combat activities began and also on the day when the

25 combat activities actually started. We were together at his command

Page 7420

1 post.

2 Q. And do you remember the next day and the day after; do you

3 remember where you were then?

4 A. Yes. Because we had a number of wounded and killed soldiers, we,

5 from the section for morale, went to the hospital to visit the wounded

6 soldiers in order to and also to make arrangements for the burial of

7 those who were killed in action.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the witness now

9 be shown Exhibit 411. This is a document from the Morale Administration,

10 dated 24 September 1995, and entitled: "Report on a visit of the Army of

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina units which participated in the most recent

12 battles for liberation by the ARBiH General Staff commander, Army

13 General Rasim Delic."

14 I would like to ask you this: Have you ever seen this document?


16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'll repeat myself. Could we please see

19 the English version showing the content of the document, please.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you see it now, Your Honour?

21 Your Honour, for now, I only read the title of the document, and

22 you can see it in the English version. I would now like to ask for the

23 next page of the document to be shown. That is page 2 in the Bosnian

24 version and page 3 of the English version. Page 2 of the Bosnian

25 version.

Page 7421

1 Q. Mr. Husic, would you please look at item 7 of this document. I

2 will quote it, and I think we will gain time that way. So item 7 of this

3 document says the following:

4 "Through the cooperation of the Army of RBiH Corps, coordinated

5 and successfully orchestrated by the ARBiH General Staff, the operation

6 has shown the strength and lethal capacity of the Army of RBiH in

7 general, including its ability to carry out the largest possible

8 operations."

9 What I would like to ask you is this: Is this document correct

10 in this segment?

11 A. No. No one from the General Staff, during the operation but also

12 during the planning phase of the action, while we were working at the

13 command post in Zenica, operated or participated in these activities.

14 Q. I see. And can you tell me, who commanded, as far as you know,

15 in these operations, in these actions, if you know?

16 A. The commanders of the 3rd Corps, Mr. Mahmuljin; and the commander

17 of the 2nd Corps, Mr. Delic.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last word?

19 The interpreter did not hear him.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness is requested to repeat the last word.

21 He was not heard.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 2nd Corps was commanded by

23 the commander of the 2nd Corps, Mr. Saed Delic.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7422

1 Q. Mr. Husic, I would now like to ask you something quite different.

2 We've seen a number of documents which showed that documents were

3 forwarded to the El Mudjahedin Detachment. I would like to ask you this:

4 While you were at the head of the morale section, did the El Mudjahedin

5 Detachment forward any report to you relating to morale?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

7 MR. NEUNER: This is again a leading question. It suggests to

8 say, "Yes." My learned colleague is asking very precisely whether the

9 El Mujahedin unit did certain things. So far, the witness has not talked

10 about the El Mujahedin Detachment forwarding a report. It's already a

11 very specific question.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've been saying this

14 before as well. I'm just trying to save time, and I will rephrase it.

15 It will get me to my answer faster.

16 Q. Witness, can you please describe to me the reporting relationship

17 between the El Mudjahedin Detachment and your morale section, if there

18 was anything like that?

19 A. From the beginning to the end of my stay in the 3rd Corps, we

20 never received a single report from the El Mudjahedin Detachment. We

21 didn't even know who was the person in the unit in charge of morale.

22 They didn't inform us about that, either.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to talk about the measures to -- or

24 incentives for soldiers. How were these incentives suggested? Who made

25 these proposals?

Page 7423

1 A. The incentives [as interpreted] were sent from the lower units up

2 to the higher commands. We would make a list and a selection, then to

3 finally decide on the list of those who would actually receive these

4 incentives.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to

6 look at Exhibit 111 now, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just understand the last answer before we

8 go to this exhibit.

9 The answer says: "The incentives were sent from the lower units

10 up to the higher commands." So the lower units were advising the higher

11 commands?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Proposals.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That makes a difference. Proposals of people who

14 were to receive incentives were sent from the lower command to the higher

15 command?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The proposal of the units who, from

17 their collective, has excelled and would deserve to receive this

18 incentive. These proposals came up from the lower units, then higher

19 commands would make a selection. They would reduce the number until they

20 reached the final list of those who would actually receive the

21 incentives.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you please now look at this document.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is a

Page 7424

1 nomination for commendations and incentives from the 3rd Corps Command,

2 dated the 10th of November, 1995.

3 Q. Can you please look at the first page of this document.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So, after we look at the first

5 page, can we please look at page 6 in the Bosnian version, and this is

6 page 7 in the English version. We need to look at the signature line.

7 Q. Is this document signed?

8 A. No. This is a draft version, and it's not signed.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to page 2 of the

10 document, both in the Bosnian and in the English.

11 Q. Can you please look at this. Do you recognise anything here?

12 A. Yes. This is exactly what I was talking about. This is the

13 draft of the document, so you see added in hand that someone is being

14 transferred from one incentive category to another. Some names are added

15 by hand, which actually indicates what I was talking about, that this is

16 a draft version of the document. The final document had a much smaller

17 number of incentives, because the units would usually exaggerate and the

18 higher commands would reduce this number.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wish to add

20 that this document was tendered by the Prosecutor, and these additions by

21 hand are something that you do not have in the English version. We just

22 have in one place where it is written "Effendi Mahmut Karalic." This was

23 translated, but these arrows and some other markings are not indicated.

24 Q. Is that correct, Witness?

25 A. Yes. This document was not sent out like this, because some

Page 7425

1 names were removed, some were changed in terms of the type of incentives,

2 and some other things.

3 Q. In principle, were these large documents or smaller, shorter

4 documents that you would send to the Supreme Command?

5 A. Well, it would be an enormous document in the draft version, but

6 then the final version would be a document of only a few pages of text.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 We can put this document away.

9 I would now like you to look at Exhibit 1134, please.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar. Can you

11 keep the previous document just one second more on the screen, because it

12 suddenly caught my attention that there are a few names of people here

13 who are being proposed for a prize or whatever it is from the Mujahedin,

14 if you look at number 30 and 31 and 32.

15 My question for the witness, therefore, would be: How would that

16 come about? There would have to be some sort of cooperation and

17 reporting from the El Mujahid Detachment to the 3rd Corps for you to be

18 able or for the 3rd Corps to be able to produce a list that would include

19 promotions or appraisals for members of the El Mujahid Detachment. So

20 how was that carried out in practice?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, the proposals came

22 through the units to which they were resubordinated in a given situation.

23 So the 35th Division sent this particular proposal. They put the

24 proposal to the 35th Division. The 35th Division put the proposal to the

25 corps. Then it was further reduced at the corps, which then sent it to

Page 7426

1 the higher command, in turn, to the General Staff.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: If I understand this correctly, then, there would

3 have been some sort of communication or contact between the 35th Division

4 and the El Mujahid Detachment, would there not?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In other situations, also,

6 when it suited them, they would establish contact, but we, as superior

7 commands, would regularly do everything for them that we did for the

8 other units, in the sense that we would send them all kinds of documents,

9 attempting to place them under control, to turn them into soldiers, and

10 other activities.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just understand.

13 Do I understand you to be saying that there were occasions when

14 the 3rd Corps would jump the 35th Division and communicate directly to

15 the El Mudjahedin Detachment?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: So then I don't understand your last answer.

18 You're saying:

19 "In other situations, also, when it suited them, they would

20 establish contact, but we, as superior commands, would regularly do

21 everything for them that we did for the other units, in the sense that we

22 would send them all kinds of documents, attempting to place them under

23 control."

24 I would expect those documents would come from the 3rd Corps to

25 the 35th Division and the 35th Division would pass them on."

Page 7427

1 Now, you're saying, no, there was no such direct communication.

2 How, then, do you explain your previous answer?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] when this unit, and this time when

4 these incentives were being proposed, so when this unit was part of the

5 35th --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not talking about that, the incentives. I'm

7 talking about - let me just hold it before it goes - I'm talking about

8 these occasions when you'd regularly do everything for them that you did

9 for other units, in the sense that you would send them all kinds of

10 documents.

11 That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the

12 incentives. How do you explain that answer, if you say you never

13 communicated directly with them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We did send it to them

15 directly, all materials, but we did not receive return reports back from

16 them.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question is: Which of these two versions must

18 the Chamber accept? I asked you a question a couple of minutes ago, "Did

19 you send them communication directly," and you said, "No." Now you say,

20 yes, you did send them. Now, which one must we accept?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lease, there were times when they

22 were not subordinated to the 35th Division and they were directly under

23 the control of the 3rd Corps. That's when we directly communicated with

24 them. And when they were in the 35th Division, then we would communicate

25 with them via the 35th Division.

Page 7428

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I think, you see, you can't conflate those

2 two situations into one answer. You've got to clarify that, when you did

3 communicate directly with them, it was when they were not resubordinated

4 to the 35th Division. You can't want to throw in the 35th Division when

5 it suits you, and then when it doesn't, say, no, they communicated with

6 them directly, without explaining that that would happen at a time when

7 they were not so subordinated to the 35th Division.

8 Proceed, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 I would like the witness now to look at Exhibit 1134, please.

11 For the transcript, this is a document of the 23rd of December, 1995.

12 It's a document of the General Staff of the Army of the Republic of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. I would like to draw your attention, Witness, to the introductory

15 part of the document, which states - can you please look at the opening

16 paragraph of the document - that the order is pursuant to an order by the

17 3rd Corps commander of the 23rd of December, 1995.

18 I would like to ask you to tell us everything that you know about

19 this proposal, if you know anything, and to explain the context in which

20 the proposal came about, if you know?

21 A. This proposal did not go through the regular procedure, through

22 the morale organ or the personnel organ, as it would in the regular

23 procedure. The date of the document, when the commander of the 3rd Corps

24 is directly proposing something, and his secretary, because her initials

25 are here, did work on this document, all of that indicates that this is a

Page 7429

1 time period when we were undertaking activities to abolish the El Mujahid

2 Detachment in order to get on the good side of its members who were

3 opposed to this position of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina.

5 Among other things, they -- these incentives were granted, and

6 this was done in an extraordinary procedure in the period immediately

7 prior to the Dayton Accords, when it was necessary to disband this unit.

8 Q. Can you please tell us -- you said that you wanted to get on the

9 good side of the unit. Why was this necessary?

10 A. Yes. At the time when they found out that the unit was going to

11 be disbanded, they openly said that they would oppose such an order, that

12 they would continue the war. I know when the 3rd Corps commander at one

13 time told a few of them that, in that case, they could just do that only

14 disobeying him and his entire units.

15 The 3rd Corps commander was a very tactful man. He knew that

16 they enjoyed support among the people. War was about to end imminently,

17 and we were faced with the danger of a completely new conflict breaking

18 out between the units of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and this

19 unit, which would probably be backed by a considerable number of the

20 citizens from that area. The unit would be backed.

21 Q. Thank you. I would like to put one more question to you.

22 In the Morale Department of the 3rd Corps during the war, did you

23 ever receive an order -- did you ever find out, rather, that the

24 El Mudjahedin Detachment had committed any criminal act, yes or no? Did

25 you receive such information?

Page 7430

1 A. No.

2 MR. NEUNER: Sorry. The witness has already answered. The

3 Prosecution believes that this was, again, a leading question.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it's

6 not a leading question. I asked did he or did he not, the witness or his

7 department, ever receive information about criminal activities. I don't

8 see how else I could put this question to the witness without losing ten

9 or 15 minutes of time.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is allowed.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Just one more time. I don't know, Witness, if you heard what I

13 asked you.

14 A. I heard the question, and I already answered it. No, we never

15 did.

16 Q. Did you have information of any kind about the negative attitude

17 of this unit towards prisoners of war or towards civilians?

18 A. No. We did not have information like that at all. No

19 information indicated or even intimated such events.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions for this

22 witness.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Mr. Neuner.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:

Page 7431

1 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. My name is Matthias Neuner. I'm appearing here on behalf of the

4 Prosecution. I'm going to put a couple of questions to you; and if you

5 don't understand certain questions, please ask me to rephrase them, and I

6 will try to do so.

7 First of all, I wanted to talk about the 306th Mountain Brigade.

8 Do you agree with me that the 306th Mountain Brigade was no manoeuvre

9 unit during the war?

10 A. Yes, it was not a manoeuvre unit.

11 Q. This brigade had its own area of responsibility, and the soldiers

12 on duty stayed within the area of responsibility of the 306th Brigade?

13 A. I cannot answer this question because I don't understand the

14 contents of the meaning of the term "area of responsibility." I'm not a

15 professional soldier, so I don't know.

16 Q. Do you agree with me that the area of responsibility or the

17 territory covered by the 306th Brigade was a part of the Bila Valley

18 during the war?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And soldiers of the 306th Brigade used to be on the front lines

21 in this territory covered by the 306th Brigade?

22 A. Occasionally, yes, but not all the time.

23 Q. If soldiers of the 306th Brigade were on duty, they did not

24 travel outside the Bila Valley for certain combat activities?

25 A. No, not on Vlasic or the Bila Valley. The 306th Mountain Brigade

Page 7432

1 was at an elevation of 1.800 metres, and they held their lines there

2 permanently, facing the aggressor.

3 Q. Is it fair to say that the 306th Brigade was a

4 territorially-based unit?

5 A. I cannot answer this question. I don't know what it means,

6 actually, that it was a territorial unit.

7 Q. I will withdraw the question.

8 The 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade was stationed in

9 Mehurici; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was the commander of the 1st Battalion in June 1993 of the

12 306th Mountain Brigade?

13 A. Yes. I think that Mirzet Ljubenovic was the commander at the

14 time.

15 Q. And who was the commander of the 4th Battalion of the 306th

16 Mountain Brigade in June of 1994 -- excuse me, 1993? I misspoke.

17 A. I think that the commanders of the 4th Battalion replaced one

18 another frequently, so it's hard for me to say who was the commander at

19 that time. I'm not sure.

20 Q. Can you tell me where the 4th Battalion was based of the 306th

21 Mountain Brigade?

22 A. The 4th Battalion was based -- or rather, its command post was on

23 the premises of the elementary school in the Visnjevo village, and the

24 fighters were billeted in private homes when they were not on duty. They

25 were in their own homes, staying with their own families.

Page 7433

1 Q. And these fighters were coming from the villages of Dub,

2 Suhi Dol, Orahovo, Visnjevo, and Jezerci; correct?

3 A. Yes. No, not Jezerci. I apologise. Visnjevo, Dub, Suhi Dol,

4 Orahovo, yes.

5 Q. I want to come to your testimony about your position as assistant

6 commander for morale. I understand you became the assistant commander

7 for morale in the 306th Brigade in March 1993, yes?

8 A. Before the establishment of the 306th, I was the assistant

9 commander for morale, and we, as the command, we established the 306th

10 Brigade.

11 Q. I was asking whether in March 1993 you assumed that post in the

12 306th Brigade?

13 A. As assistant commander for morale in the 306th Mountain Brigade,

14 I was appointed in ...

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the month.

16 THE WITNESS: ... 1993; and together with other members of the

17 command, I worked on the establishment of the brigade.


19 Q. Could you repeat again the month you were appointed, please, for

20 the interpreter?

21 A. November 1992.

22 Q. In the first half -- or throughout 1993, who was your superior in

23 the Morale Department in OG Bosanska Krajina?

24 A. First of all, we were not -- throughout this period, we were not

25 part of the Bosanska Krajina Operations Group.

Page 7434

1 Secondly, the assistant commander's name in the Bosanska Krajina

2 Operations Group, the assistant commander for morale, I cannot really

3 recall now, because we - and you can see that from the documents as

4 well - we were subordinated to them for a very brief period, or rather,

5 while we were subordinated, we were not -- we were not able to

6 communicate with them because all the contacts had been broken.

7 Q. I now remember that you testified and you were shown a couple of

8 documents from OG West. Did you have a superior in OG West; and if so,

9 what was his name, in 1993?

10 A. Yes. And in the Operations Group West, there was someone who was

11 an assistant -- his assistant; but we never had any physical contact,

12 because the seat of this operations group was very far away and the

13 communication was never possible. I don't know.

14 Q. Did you have a superior in the 3rd Corps section for morale in

15 1993?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was the name?

18 A. His name was Professor Dr. Faik Uzunovic.

19 Q. And within the 306th Brigade Morale Service, how many

20 subordinates did you have?

21 A. In the Brigade Command itself, there were five of us,

22 occasionally six or seven, depending on what time we're talking about.

23 Each battalion had two, and the company had one person for morale. We

24 called them "the morale people."

25 Q. Could you tell me, throughout your testimony you mentioned that

Page 7435

1 certain persons had contact with the Mujahedin, were there some members

2 in the morale section of the 306th Brigade who had such contacts?

3 A. No, not as far as I know, because their relationship towards me

4 and my relationship with them was rather tense, so that at the time when

5 we were establishing the brigade, even the private contacts that we had

6 in the beginning were now not so good.

7 Q. You told us yesterday that, initially, the Mujahedin had asked

8 you to work at one of their schools. Could you tell me, who asked you?

9 A. No. I did not say this yesterday. The Mujahedin were billeted

10 at the elementary school in Mehurici on orders of the civilian

11 authorities of the Travnik Municipality; and via the civilian

12 structures --

13 Q. Sorry. I wasn't asking you for the reason why they were based at

14 the Mehurici school. I was just interested in who at the time had asked

15 you or approached you and asked you to work at their school.

16 A. The Mujahedin, one of them whose name was Abdullah, he was in

17 charge of education. He came to my house and asked that I and my wife

18 work for them or with them in their school.

19 Q. And where was Abdullah living at the time?

20 A. He was in Mehurici, in the school building.

21 Q. And you were asked to work in which school?

22 A. They organised in every village in private houses. They would

23 lease one room, and they would call it the school. They organised -- in

24 these rooms, they organised training, instruction, and one such room was

25 also in my uncle's house.

Page 7436

1 Q. Could you tell me, when were you approached, approximately?

2 A. This was - I cannot pinpoint it exactly - late in the autumn of

3 1992; October, perhaps November.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Neuner, could you elicit from the witness

5 whether the witness responded positively to the request from the

6 Abdullah? Was any arrangement ever made? Did the MD rent a room in the

7 witness's house?


9 Q. Could you please try to answer the Judge's question? What

10 response -- sorry. What response did you give the -- did you give

11 Abdullah?

12 A. I declined this invitation, or rather, I made it conditional on

13 the premise that we would work based on the literature that was at the

14 time used in Bosnia and Herzegovina. They did not accept this, and this

15 is why I did not accept their offer, their invitation.

16 Q. And could you tell me, where was the house of your relative where

17 they rented a room, the Mujahedin?

18 A. It was very close to the house where my parents used to live in

19 the past. This was in Dub village. But at this time, it was abandoned,

20 the house, because my parents at this time lived in Han Bila.

21 Q. And Dub is in the Bila Valley, a village a little bit above

22 Mehurici?

23 A. Yes, to the northwest some five, six, perhaps ten kilometres from

24 Han Bila.

25 Q. You testified about the presence of the Mujahedin in Mehurici

Page 7437

1 school. Could you tell me, when did the Mujahedin first move into

2 Mehurici school?

3 A. I do not know exactly, because, at this time, I was not in Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina. They arrived there before me, and I talked about this

5 earlier. And when the incident occurred, when my relative called me and

6 asked me to protect the school's property, this was at the end of May or

7 beginning the June in 1992.

8 Q. So you're telling us that the Mujahedin had moved into the school

9 already before May 1992; is that correct?

10 A. No, not before May. That was not possible. I arrived there at

11 the end of May. They had arrived there a little before me. But this was

12 in May 1992.

13 Q. And you also, testified at some point in time, the Mujahedin

14 moved out of the school to Poljanice. When, approximately, did the

15 Mujahedin leave the Mehurici school?

16 A. I don't know exactly, but around the time of new year 1992-1993,

17 because for the needs of the brigade, we have the need to billet the

18 battalion, we billeted the battalion there, and they were -- they clashed

19 with them, so they left the school.

20 Q. And yesterday, and this is page 61 and 62 of the transcript, you

21 said: "I did not personally go to Poljanice and communicate, but some

22 people that they tolerated better or respected more, we would send such

23 people to their unit."

24 My question I'm having is: Could you tell me who, in the

25 306th Brigade, made the decision to send somebody to the -- to Poljanice

Page 7438

1 to talk to the Mujahedin?

2 A. No one from the brigade made that decision; but, rather, through

3 the civilian authorities and the local clerics, we tried, on several

4 occasions, to draw their attention to some things that were happening in

5 our area of responsibility.

6 The problem was this: The officers of the 306th Brigade were not

7 officers that they accepted as someone to talk to. They were afraid of

8 us, and they considered that we were spying on them.

9 Q. So you're saying that no member of the 306th Brigade talked to

10 the Mujahedin?

11 A. Not in that way. So no one was sent before the brigade, because

12 there was a number of people who later left our unit, to join them; and,

13 of course, they couldn't go there before -- without having previously

14 communicated with them.

15 Q. But people who stayed within the 306th Brigade, were they talking

16 to the Mujahedin in Poljanice?

17 A. Officially, no, in this period of time. Whether someone did, and

18 I also had done so before, but when they stopped communicating with me,

19 then I wasn't able to do it anymore. But, officially, from the Command,

20 we could not communicate with them.

21 Q. When did official communications by members of the 306th Brigade

22 with the Mujahedin start?

23 A. Never. I do not understand the question.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness replied.

Page 7439

1 However, at no point, until now, did the witness mention that there were

2 any official communications between the 306th Brigade and the Mujahedin,

3 and there is no foundation for this question.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you look at page 77, line 24,

5 the witness answers: "Officially, no, in this period of time."

6 Now, for me, reading that sentence, it leaves me with the

7 impression that, in another period of time, there was such official

8 contact, so I would then want to know what time was that. And if that

9 impression is wrong, then the witness can say, "No, you misunderstood my

10 answer."

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]


13 Q. I understood it the same way, and I understood from you that

14 there was no official communication with the Mujahedin at all by the

15 306th Brigade.

16 A. Yes, that's what I meant.

17 Q. Are you referring to 1993 -- sorry, 1992 and 1993, or you're

18 referring to the entire war?

19 A. Both 1992 and 1993. But toward the end of 1993, I left the 306th

20 Brigade, and I cannot know about the period after that.

21 Q. Is it correct that in 1993, in the Bila Valley, there were a

22 couple of different units, military units?

23 A. [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic. Sorry, sorry, sir.

25 Madam Vidovic.

Page 7440

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we can -- if this

2 question can be more specific, because it's very general. What units did

3 he mean, the BH Army, the HVO? What did he mean?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

5 MR. NEUNER: I was referring to units fighting on the side of the

6 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] between the 306th and other units.


10 Q. Next to the 306th, there was also the 312th Brigade, is that

11 correct, in the Bila Valley?

12 A. No. The 312th Brigade was in Travnik. Several individuals from

13 the Bila Valley were members of that 312th Brigade from Travnik.

14 Q. There were also -- or not "also."

15 There was also the 314th Brigade which had a battalion in the

16 Bila Valley; correct?

17 A. The 314th Brigade had locals from Zagradje, Skomorje --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure this is correct,

19 and could the witness repeat the third village.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the seat of this brigade

21 was in Zenica, and they had to go through the area of responsibility of

22 the 306th Mountain Brigade. So they did not have a seat in the

23 Bila Valley.


25 Q. Could you repeat for the record the locations where the 314th

Page 7441

1 Brigade was located, please, in the Bila Valley?

2 A. The 314th Brigade was not in the Bila Valley, in that sense. The

3 locals from the villages, Gluha Bukovica, Zagradje, Skomorje, with the

4 already mentioned Hadzija Puric went and joined the 314th Brigade. They

5 were born in those villages.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you spell those names? I realise the

7 transcript is having difficulty trying to get those names. Gluha

8 Bukovica, is that what you said?

9 THE WITNESS: G-L-U-H-A, B-U-K-O-V-I-C-A; Z-A-G-R-A-D-J-E; and

10 S-K-O-M-O-R-J-E.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. And then you referred to Midhat Puric. Is it correct that he was

14 in the 4th Battalion of the 314th Brigade?

15 A. I don't know in which battalion he was, but it is correct that he

16 was in the 314th Brigade.

17 Q. Do you know when he joined that brigade?

18 A. He joined the brigade immediately after -- following the new year

19 day between 1992 and 1993, at the time when we were establishing the

20 306th Brigade.

21 Q. And is it correct that later on he moved to the 27th Mountain

22 Brigade of the 7th Corps of the ARBiH to become an administrative officer

23 for information, propaganda, and education?

24 A. That's impossible. I don't know what you mean, but I know this

25 man. I absolutely don't know what you're talking about. I don't know

Page 7442

1 where he was up to the end of the war, but it's impossible that he was an

2 officer of such an --

3 MR. NEUNER: Maybe for clarification, Exhibit -- sorry,

4 document D974 can be shown. This is a decision on commissions and

5 promotions, while it's being presented, from the 4th of November, 1994.

6 You can see the first page here for a second, and then I wish that we go

7 to the fourth page, please, in English, and in B/C/S to page 3.

8 In the English, it's the fourth person from the top; and in B/C/S

9 it's somewhere in the middle, above the letter "E."

10 Q. Something like the 10th person above the letter is

11 "Midhat Puric." Do you see that?

12 A. I don't -- oh, yes, I see it now. I don't know if there's

13 another person with the same name. However, this is the 7th Corps. I

14 was never there, and I cannot know who was performing which duty or

15 anything like that. But it would be quite incredible for me that

16 Midhat Puric, called "Hadzija," would be carrying out such a duty, but I

17 don't know.

18 Q. Was this father's name Zaim?

19 A. I don't know that. Although he lives in the neighbouring

20 village, I don't know who his father is or his father's name.

21 MR. NEUNER: May the document be marked for identification,

22 please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

24 be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document will become

Page 7443

1 Exhibit 1206, marked for identification.


3 Q. And I understood your testimony to say that at some point in

4 time, in 1993, the Mujahedin formed their own unit. Could you tell me

5 when the unit El Mudjahedin Detachment was approximately formed?

6 A. It will be hard for me to remember the date or the time. It's

7 sometime towards the end or the late second half of 1993, if I recall

8 correctly, or maybe it's much later. I don't know.

9 Q. And can you tell me, the El Mujahid Detachment had no fixed area

10 of responsibility within the Bila Valley; is that right?

11 A. The El Mudjahedin Detachment, after it was formed, was not in the

12 Bila Valley at all. It didn't have an area of responsibility; and very

13 soon after it was established, it was relocated, with the exception of

14 individuals who were individually living in the Bila Valley.

15 Q. What about the village of Orasac, were there some members of the

16 El Mujahedin living?

17 A. This is a much later period, after I went to the 3rd Corps, and

18 all that was happening in the Bila Valley is something I don't know. But

19 as for and Orasac, Guca Gora, and some other locations, we already

20 mentioned Poljanice, a few Arabs were settled there. They were living

21 there. As for which units they belonged to or what they were a part of,

22 I don't know.

23 Q. Could you tell me, the Mujahedin in Mehurici, they were engaging

24 in combat; right?

25 A. I don't know what you're talking about. Which Mujahedin from

Page 7444

1 Mehurici and which fighting, which combat?

2 Q. Sorry. I meant the Mujahedin who moved from Mehurici to

3 Poljanice. I apologise. So the Mujahedin who were based in Poljanice,

4 did they engage in combat in 1993?

5 A. We talked in detail about that yesterday. They did undertake

6 some actions independently, but neither were they a unit, nor did they

7 participate in combat with the 306th Mountain Brigade, and even

8 frequently in danger of us clashing with them.

9 Q. I wasn't asking for the 306th Brigade and the relationship of the

10 Mujahedin to it. Could you tell me - you're saying that the Mujahedin

11 from Poljanice did some actions independently - where did they carry out

12 these actions independently?

13 A. They were not a unit; and among other things, they tried to

14 attack the feature that we talked about yesterday. This is the central

15 feature in the middle of the Bila Valley called "Hrasce 688."

16 Q. This was in June 1993?

17 A. I don't know the date. It wasn't a large action that we would

18 necessarily register in that way, but I know about it because they were

19 attacked from there, so they were also responding or retaliating and

20 attacking back.

21 Q. If you say they were attacked from there, do you wish to say that

22 they were holding a part of the front line where they were attacked?

23 A. No, absolutely no. Yesterday, we talked about how this was a

24 feature from which all the roads in the Bila Valley were being

25 controlled --

Page 7445

1 Q. I understand that, but I'm just trying to follow up on what you

2 said. You said, a moment ago, "They were attacked from there." So where

3 were the Mujahedin located when they were attacked from Hrasce?

4 A. They were attacked as they were moving along the

5 Mehurici-Han Bila road.

6 Q. Do you know how many Mujahedin were moving along that road?

7 A. How would I be able to know that?

8 MR. NEUNER: Could we have document PT1555 shown to the witness.

9 This is referring to another incident, a document from the 21st of

10 September, 1993, entitled: "Information on the situation in the AOR of

11 the 3rd Corps."

12 If we could for a moment go to the last page and look for the

13 signature, please.

14 Q. Whose signature is this?

15 A. Mine.

16 MR. NEUNER: Could we now go back to the first page, please.

17 Q. This is the fourth sentence of your report I'm referring to

18 here:

19 "After the Ustasha [indiscernible]," it starts, and I read it to

20 you:

21 "In Grbavica, Sivrino Selo was supposed to share the same fate as

22 the Ahmici. Luckily, the Ustasha did not succeed in that, the 27th

23 Krajiska Brigade intervened in time and taught them a lesson, so that

24 Sivrino Selo was saved, and then the 17th Famous Krajiska Brigade from

25 the direction of Kruscica, together with the El Mujahid Detachment,

Page 7446

1 advanced to Princip. The village of Gacice burnt down completely. From

2 the direction of Krcevine, the 7th Muslim Brigade pushed forward and

3 slowly but gradually advanced below Lubice with the intention to link up

4 with the soldiers of the Krajiska Brigade and to cut the communication

5 towards Busovaca."

6 Can you tell me, from your reporting here, where is Sivrino Selo

7 and where is Kruscica located?

8 THE WITNESS: Sivrino Selo is in the area between Zenica and

9 Vitez, thus in the area of the Vitez Municipality. Kruscica is located

10 between Vitez and Novi Travnik, and I'm not sure whether it's in the Novi

11 Travnik Municipality or the Vitez Municipality.

12 With that, this document went out as information to the

13 subordinate unit. I think you can see from the contents that it was

14 drafted on the basis of information from the media, and I'm trying to

15 inform the fighters who don't have radios, who are in Vlasic Mountain.

16 Well, it's not an official document that's going anywhere.

17 Q. Could you tell me whether the two locations, Krus cica and

18 Sivrino Selo, are not within the 306th Mountain Brigade controlled

19 territory, they are outside the territory held by the 306th Brigade;

20 right?

21 A. They were very far from the territory controlled by the

22 306th Mountain Brigade.

23 Q. How could you obtain that information?

24 A. I just said that this was information that we got from the media,

25 because at the Commands, we were able to listen to the news and the

Page 7447

1 propaganda. So we would assemble this information and forward it to the

2 fighters who were on combat positions at Mount Vlasic and who did not

3 have the option or the possibility of communication or listening to the

4 media.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand you, sir. Are you saying you

6 were feeding your subordinates propaganda instead of giving them factual

7 information?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. We --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You collect information from the radio which you

10 call propaganda, and you pass it on to your subordinates, to your units?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information from the radio, we

12 would write them down and forward that to our subordinate units.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me quote what you said just now, at line 21 of

14 page 85:

15 "I just said that this was information that we got from the

16 media, because at the Commands, we were able to listen to the news and

17 the propaganda. So we would assemble this information and forward it to

18 the fighters who were on combat positions on Mount Vlasic and who did not

19 have the option or possibility of communication or listening to the

20 media."

21 Now, you're collecting information from the radio, including

22 propaganda, and you pass it on to your units. This is what you were

23 doing?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We sent information from the media

25 to our units. What was the truth and what was propaganda is something

Page 7448

1 that I don't know.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't agree that the

4 witness mentioned the word "propaganda" at all in his answer in this

5 context, and now he has clarified it.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It would have been preferable, Madam Vidovic, if

7 you had objected at the time he was being translated, and you would have

8 told us that the witness did not use the word "propaganda." To raise it

9 at this stage, when he is now being confront with this question, is of no

10 value.

11 You may proceed. I am done with my questions.

12 MR. NEUNER: I note the time. I would have one more question,

13 and then would ask for the document be admitted, if this is permitted.

14 Q. We can see here that you're using the term "El Mudjahedin

15 Detachment," and we see the document has a stamp from the 21st of

16 September [Realtime transcript read in error "December"] 1993.

17 Can I assume that, by that time, the El Mudjahedin Detachment was

18 established?

19 Sorry. I was referring to 21 "September" 1993. The transcript

20 says "December."

21 A. You've seen that this term "El Mujahid" functions - or the

22 Mujahedin - already from 1992, so I'm not sure whether it was formed

23 before or after this date.

24 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document be admitted.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 7449

1 please be given an exhibit number --

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Excuse me.

3 Witness, please, in 1992, we had the word "Mujahedin" and

4 "Mujahid," or "El Mudjahedin Detachment." Did we have the word "Mujahid"

5 or did we have "El Mudjahedin Detachment"?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official name of the

7 detachment, after it was established, was "El Mujahedin." But much

8 earlier, before it was formed, there was a large number of different

9 terms which were used for the same group.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is not what I

11 asked. Please, let me give you the context.

12 The Prosecutor asked you whether at that time, at that very date

13 in September 1993, the El Mujahid or El Mujahedin, or whatever

14 detachment, had already been established, given that in this document,

15 which dates back to September 1993, there is a reference - you actually

16 refer to this, to these words, and you answered by saying, "Well, this

17 word 'Mujahid,' 'Mujahedin' had already been used as early as 1992. I

18 just wanted to know whether, in 1992, the words "El Mudjahedin

19 Detachment" was used.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May this document please be given an exhibit

23 number. It has been admitted.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will become

25 Exhibit 1207.

Page 7450

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 That brings us to the end of today's session, sir. We are still

3 not done with you. You will please have to come back tomorrow.

4 Let's just adjourn while you are here so that you know the time.

5 The Court adjourns to tomorrow morning at 9.00 in Courtroom I. I guess

6 everybody agreed to that change.

7 Okay. 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I, sir.

8 Court adjourned.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

11 March, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.