Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7728

1 Tuesday, 18 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good morning, everybody. Mr. Registrar, would

6 you call the case. Madam Registrar. Sorry.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor

9 versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

11 Good morning to everyone in the courtroom. As you will see,

12 today we are sitting without Judge Moloto, so we will proceed today and

13 tomorrow according to Rule 15 bis. Judge Moloto has been called away

14 from the seat of the Tribunal and so is unable to be with us today.

15 Before we start I would like to get back to the motion that the

16 Defence entered yesterday in relation to a document that was proposed by

17 the Prosecution in cross-examination of the witness yesterday. The

18 request to have that document presented to the witness was accepted by

19 the Tribunal and the Defence objected and raised two issues, namely,

20 first of all, you requested, Madam Vidovic, that you be given the right

21 to have a written decision; and secondly, that you would wish to seek

22 leave to appeal that decision.

23 The Chamber discussed and deliberated on your motion yesterday

24 while we were all three together, and this is what we decided: As to the

25 first issue of giving a written decision, the Chamber was unanimous in

Page 7729

1 saying that we don't think you need this for the purpose of the appeal,

2 so that part of the motion is denied.

3 Secondly, for the purpose of seeking leave to appeal the

4 decision, we also agreed that we could not rule out the possibility that

5 this issue might have an impact on the fairness of the trial, so for that

6 reason we will grant you leave to appeal the oral decision entered

7 yesterday.

8 I hope this settles the matter for now.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

11 Should we bring in -- are there any other matters that need to be

12 addressed before we bring in the witness?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps just one, Your Honours. Good morning. In

14 light of the oral decision just rendered, the Prosecution takes it from

15 the oral decision granting certification that the ruling as it was

16 announced yesterday stands pending that appeal with the result that the

17 practice that was adopted yesterday will continue for the duration of the

18 Defence case or until the Appeals Chamber rules.

19 Is that a correct understanding of the situation?

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is correct.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see no new faces in the courtroom today, so I

23 suppose it is not necessary to call for the appearance of the parties, so

24 I think we shall move directly to having the witness come in.

25 I understand that protective measures have been granted for this

Page 7730

1 witness, and maybe Mrs. Vidovic will clarify this.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence

3 calls Witness DW4 to testify.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: And as far as I recall from our decision, we have

5 granted voice protection and image distortion for this witness. Is that

6 correct, Madam Registrar? This is the case.

7 Well, thank you very much, let's have the witness enter the

8 courtroom.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I suppose since we are in Courtroom II, we will

11 have to pull down the curtains for the remainder of the day because this

12 courtroom cannot be installed in such a way as to shield the witness from

13 being seen.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Oh. Yes. Yes. For the purpose of having the

16 witness enter the courtroom, may I please ask the registrar first to go

17 into closed session.

18 [Closed session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7731











11 Pages 7731-7740 redacted. Closed session















Page 7741

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in the open session.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours.

20 Q. You mentioned a small number of Arabs in that unit. Could you

21 please describe their behaviour in combat? How did they comport

22 themselves in combat?

23 A. Those people who were members of the Reconnaissance Platoon when

24 I joined it were disciplined and good people when it came to combat.

25 They obeyed the orders, and they carried out their tasks as did all the

Page 7742

1 other soldiers that were part of the Zebe Unit.

2 Q. Did you or did you not ever have any prisoners of war?

3 A. As far as I can recall, no.

4 Q. As regards the prisoners of war, I would like to ask you the

5 following: The treatment of prisoners of war, was it regulated in any

6 way within the unit?

7 A. Yes. Every member of the unit at the time had familiarised

8 himself with the Geneva Conventions and the proper treatment of the

9 prisoners of war. And I would also like to stress is that according to

10 the tenets of the Islam, the faith that we practised, any maltreatment or

11 torture of prisoners is prohibited. In addition, every member was told

12 about the Geneva Conventions, and the Arabs who were members of the IDV

13 were also acquainted with it, and they did not have any complaints about

14 that. They spoke this booklet that contained the basic principles of the

15 Geneva Conventions in highly -- with high praise.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain to us the geographic layout

17 of Zeljezno Polje?

18 A. Zeljezno Polje consists of 12 hamlets, and those 12 hamlets

19 actually comprise a local commune that is called Zeljezno Polje.

20 Q. Did you hear about the hamlet of Biljevina?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Was there a school in that hamlet or not?

23 A. Yes, there was a school in the elementary school, but for the

24 first four grades. This is where the children went to school before the

25 war.

Page 7743

1 Q. First of all, did you have an opportunity during the war to go to

2 Biljevina and, if so, did you see this school?

3 A. Yes, I did go to the hamlet of Biljevina. We passed by the

4 hamlet. We saw the school. And I think it was in 1993, but I'm not

5 sure. Some Arabs were located in the school. There was some kind of a

6 centre. I think it was called El Faruk or Al Faruk, but at any rate, it

7 was run by the Arabs.

8 Q. What were the relations between this centre and the 319th Brigade

9 like if there were any relations?

10 A. As far as I can recall, this centre had nothing to do with the

11 command of the 319th Brigade, so there were no relations.

12 Q. Witness, were you aware that in the Zenica-Travnik area there was

13 a detachment called the El Mujahedin Detachment?

14 A. Yes, I was aware of that.

15 Q. To your knowledge were there any members of this unit in the

16 Zepce area or not?

17 A. As far as I know there were no members of this detachment in the

18 Zepce municipality.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, sorry to object -- or not object, but

20 could we have a time frame here, please?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, I will clarify

22 this with the witness.

23 Q. In the period between August 1993 and the end of the war, 1995,

24 in other words, in the area where you lived to your knowledge were there

25 any members of the El Mujahedin Detachment there?

Page 7744

1 A. No, there weren't any.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

3 please look at D723.

4 For the record, this is a document from the 319th Brigade. The

5 date is the 27th of October, 1995. It is entitled "Information on

6 foreign citizens are hereby submitted."

7 Q. Witness, could you please look at this document. And could you

8 please comment on this document.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down the

10 English version so that we can see the rest of the document in English.

11 Thank you. And could we then see page 2 of the English version.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I would like to say here is

13 that as of August 1993, when I joined this unit, the Zebe Unit, up until

14 the end of the war, there were eight to nine foreign nationals in that

15 unit, and I am not aware of any larger numbers being there.

16 Q. On this list, first of all I would like to ask you this: Have

17 you ever seen this list before?

18 A. No, I have not.

19 Q. As we can see from this list, it contains the names of 12 foreign

20 nationals who were members. Do you have any explanation for this larger

21 number of foreign nationals who were members of this unit than the one

22 that you gave us?

23 A. While I was in this unit, the Zebe Unit, and again when I became

24 the commander of the anti-armour company, and up until the end of the war

25 there were always eight to nine foreign nationals, not more than that.

Page 7745

1 But I would like to say that at that time the brigade -- or, rather, this

2 list contains the names of 12 foreign nationals that I am not aware of.

3 I don't know about them.

4 At that time people could obtain personal documents and proof of

5 their belonging to the army in all kinds of ways, and I claim that in the

6 unit that I commanded there were eight to nine such foreign nationals,

7 but it was very easy to buy this status. You could bribe somebody in the

8 brigade to be given -- granted the status of a fighter.

9 Q. At any rate, you say that in your unit there were eight to nine

10 such people. To your knowledge, in the other elements of the

11 319th Brigade were there any foreign nationals there?

12 A. No. All the foreign nationals that were members of the 319th

13 Brigade were in the unit that I commanded, the -- the anti-armour

14 company, and they remained there until the end of the war.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness. You talk about eight to nine people. The

16 list has 12 foreign nationals who were members of the unit. What I want

17 to ask you is the following: The Arabs who were members of your unit,

18 were they the only Arabs that you saw in that area? I'm talking about

19 Zeljezno Polje.

20 A. No. As I've already said, in the hamlet of Biljevina, there was

21 this centre which was where the Arabs were, and there were also a large

22 number of humanitarian relief workers in Zeljezno Polje. There were also

23 those that would just come and go in Zeljezno Polje.

24 Q. The appearance and the uniforms that those people wore, but was

25 it possible for you to make a distinction between various groups of Arabs

Page 7746

1 based on their appearance and uniforms? Are they humanitarian workers,

2 do they belong to El Faruk, do they belong to your group? Could you

3 please describe that to Their Honours?

4 A. A part of those Arabs wore their ethnic garb. Some wore

5 uniforms. Part of the humanitarian aid workers wore just ordinary casual

6 clothes, jeans and things like that.

7 Q. Witness, to your knowledge did any incidents occur in this area?

8 A. Yes. I heard about incidents.

9 Q. Who created these incidents, if you know? Were they created by

10 members of your unit or someone else? If you can help us with this.

11 A. When we learned from the security services of the brigade that

12 there was an incident, we would investigate it, and after this we would

13 establish that these were not members of our units who created these

14 incidents, and frequently this was actually a -- this was attributed to

15 these members of Arab groups, because Arabs were seen as such.

16 Q. What is your assessment? You mentioned the security service and

17 that they informed you of incidents where Arabs that they thought were

18 your members were involved. In your assessment, did they have sufficient

19 knowledge to actually establish who created the incident or not?

20 A. According to the information that we had, they did not have

21 sufficient information. They only tried to establish who the

22 perpetrators were, and then they would attribute it to the unit where

23 these foreign nationals were. They did not carry out detailed

24 investigations, and they did not even inform us of every incident. There

25 were occasions where we wouldn't even know that something had happened,

Page 7747

1 and yet this was attributed to our units.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down a bit.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, you are speaking -- you are speaking

4 too fast, and the interpreters ask you to slow down.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

6 apologise.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, could you please repeat your last answer.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry. Would you also elicit from the

10 witness what sort of incidents we are talking about.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, could you please repeat your last answer, and then I

13 will ask you to explain what kind of incidents these were.

14 A. Frequently the security services of the brigade and of the

15 civilian police in the area of the Zepce municipality, when an incident

16 occurred they would attribute it to the unit where these foreign

17 nationals were, for that reason alone, because there were Arab nationals

18 in the unit. However, after analysing and investigating the matter, we

19 would inform the command -- the brigade command that that incident had

20 nothing to do with our unit, which they then accepted.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

22 clarify, because the transcript does not reflect accurately what the

23 witness has said.

24 Q. So I would also ask the witness to speak as slowly as possible so

25 that he can be interpreted.

Page 7748

1 Now, just to clarify. When you mentioned the security service

2 that would attribute this to the brigade where Arabs were, that's what it

3 says in the transcript, what exactly did you say? Who were these

4 incidents attributed to?

5 A. For instance, if there was an incident in the territory of the

6 Zepce municipality, the security service, without having carried out an

7 investigation, would write down a report and mention in the report that

8 the possible perpetrators were members of the Green Berets or units as --

9 that were part of the 319th Liberation Brigade.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please assign

11 a number to this document, and then I will go back to the question that

12 you raised, because that was exactly where I was headed with the witness

13 to clarify this issue of incidents and in relation to that, I will show

14 him some documents, and that will give you the answer that you were

15 interested in.

16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to put a

17 question to you. Among the Arabs who were members of your unit, was

18 there any wounded? Was there anyone killed during combat?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] How many approximately? How

21 many people were killed or wounded or left the brigade?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the eight or nine, as far as I

23 knew, four of them were killed. There were some who were slightly

24 wounded, maybe three or four of them.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And the wounded members of the

Page 7749

1 unit, did they go away to get some treatment, and then did they come back

2 to the brigade?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they did not leave the brigade.

4 These were slight injuries, slight wounds.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, I think we should assign an exhibit

7 number to the document unless the Prosecution has any objections.

8 MS. SARTORIO: No objections, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Registrar, we admit the document. Would

10 you kindly give it an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will become Exhibit

12 number 1319.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In relation to incidents, Your

15 Honour, could the witness please be shown Exhibit 936.

16 Q. Witness, before we look at this document, I would like you to

17 give us a brief answer to the following question that was posed by the

18 Judge. What kind of incident -- of incidents were in question when you

19 mentioned that the security services informed you of incidents?

20 A. At this time in Zeljezno Polje area there were incidents. There

21 were explosive devices planted in various catering facilities. There

22 were instances of bringing down overhand electric lines that provided

23 electricity to the local population. And as far as I can recall, mainly

24 these were incidents of this kind.

25 Q. Thank you. Would you now please take a look at this incident.

Page 7750

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, let my say that

2 that is a report from the 319th Liberation Brigade of 13 July 1995.

3 Q. Witness, this is a brief document. Would you please read it, and

4 then I will ask you to comment on it if you can.

5 A. We can see hear that the security service contacted various

6 sources asking for information about foreign nationals. What I can say

7 is this has nothing to do with the unit in which I was. Arabs did come

8 to Zeljezno Polje, that's true, in big or small groups, as I mentioned a

9 bit earlier.

10 Q. And now I would like to ask you the following: As you can see,

11 it says here that the above-mentioned person, in conversations with

12 Arabs, learned that in the area of Zeljezno Polje a group of 30

13 additional Arabs are supposed to come, and they should be brought by Esad

14 Alobaidi Rasid. Please tell us, is this Esad Alobaidi Rasid, this

15 person, was he a member of your unit?

16 A. No, he wasn't a member our unit.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please

18 assign -- I apologise. This document is already an exhibit. I

19 apologise. Can we now remove it.

20 No I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 937.

21 Q. Witness, if you have difficulty reading the document, I can ask

22 the usher to provide you with a hard copy of this document.

23 A. If possible, please. I can't really read.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the usher please

25 show this document to my colleagues from the Prosecution and then to the

Page 7751

1 witness.

2 Could you please show this to the Prosecutor first and then to

3 the witness.

4 For the record, this is an information from the security service

5 of the 3rd Corps, and it deals with the desecration of the Catholic

6 cemetery and additional information. The document bears the date 22nd of

7 July, 1995.

8 Q. Witness, before I ask you to comment on this, can you tell us

9 whether the village Donje Golubinja is in the area where you used to

10 live?

11 A. No. It was about seven and a half kilometres away from the place

12 where we lived.

13 Q. During the war did you find anything out about this incident?

14 A. This information I have never seen before. In other words, it

15 never arrived officially in the unit, but there were some indications in

16 relation to a unit that was connected to us. We carried out a detailed

17 investigation when we learnt of the desecration of the cemetery, and we

18 informed the brigade that this had nothing to do with our unit.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is

21 already an exhibit, and it may now be removed.

22 Q. And in connection with this document, Witness, let me ask you

23 this: Did you ever find out who the perpetrators of this incident were?

24 A. No, I never found out, but they were not members of my unit. Of

25 that I'm sure.

Page 7752

1 Q. Thank you. Could you now please explain something else. You

2 mentioned that you knew about the El Mujahedin Detachment, their

3 existence. You also said that they were not in your area. Was there any

4 kind of relationship between the Arabs that were in your unit and the

5 El Mujahedin Detachment or not?

6 A. No. Our unit did not have a good relationship with the

7 El Mujahedin Detachment because the Arabs who were in our units were a

8 bit more liberal, as it were, and they were more accepting, if I may say

9 so, of the Bosnian customs. Some of them even smoked and were generally

10 of a freer behaviour when compared to the members of the other unit.

11 Q. Could you please clarify a bit what you mean by they were

12 behaving a bit more freely or more liberally.

13 A. The unit that I was a member of, the members of our units and the

14 Arabs, including the Arabs, they were allowed to listen to music, to have

15 a girlfriend, to smoke, whereas in the unit that you mentioned, as far as

16 we knew this was not allowed.

17 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you something else. During

18 the war did you hear of the village Borovnica?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. When?

21 A. In 1995.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point I would

23 like the witness to be shown map 11 in the map book. Map 11 from the map

24 book.

25 Perhaps it's easier, maybe I can be of assistance to the usher,

Page 7753

1 maybe I can give you the ERN number for this map. It's 06186706.

2 Q. Witness, I hope that you can see what's written on this map.

3 It's rather small.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on it a

5 bit.

6 We can't do it this way. We need to see the lower part.

7 All right. Could you show us the segment that we saw just a

8 minute ago. I think this might be all right.

9 Q. Witness, did you see Borovnica on this map?

10 A. Yes, I can see it.

11 Q. Witness, you have an electronic pen in front of you, and now I

12 will ask you to show and circle Borovnica.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you very much. Do you remember were you in the area of

15 Borovnica during 1995?

16 A. Yes. I was there under the orders of the brigade commander. We

17 were deployed next to the village of Borovnica, to a location there, and

18 we were ordered to report there.

19 Q. As I understood you to say, it was close to the village of

20 Borovnica; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you be more specific in terms of time frame in the course of

23 1995?

24 A. I believe it was in the month of September of 1995.

25 Q. Do you recall what was going on in the area, if anything, in

Page 7754

1 September 1995? And I'm referring to possible combat activities.

2 A. The unit I was in command of had the order of the brigade

3 commander to report to the Borovnica area where the unit would be

4 resubordinated to one of the manoeuvre units of the 3rd Corps. I don't

5 recall the precise title of the unit, but I know that the commander of

6 that sabotage unit was Mr. Sead Rekic.

7 Q. Can you tell us the reason why the unit was deployed there? What

8 was the reason behind that decision and why both you and Mr. Rekic were

9 supposed to be there.

10 A. It was on the orders of the brigade commander that the unit was

11 deployed over there to lift the blockade -- or, rather, to seize and

12 capture Vozuca and to allow the 2nd and the 3rd Corps of the army of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina to link up.

14 Q. Did these combat activities have a title of sorts, if you know?

15 A. I believe that the operation was called FARZ or something of that

16 sort.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this is

19 the time for a break. Can the map be kept in e-court as it is now,

20 because I will have some more questions in relation to it.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Certainly. We will take a break and come back at

22 quarter to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7755

1 Q. Witness, before the break we discussed your arrival in the

2 village of Borovnica. You mentioned action FARZ. Since the marking

3 encircling the village of Borovnica disappeared over the break, can you

4 please circle Borovnica once again.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. You said that you came to the village. Who did you come across

7 in that village, if there was anyone in the village.

8 A. As our unit arrived in the area and went past the village of

9 Borovnica, we saw a group of Arabs who were in the village. Our unit

10 proceeded on its journey since we were supposed to put -- report to a

11 location that was somewhat further away from Borovnica village.

12 Q. Can you explain to us the spatial layout of the location where

13 your unit was stationed and the place where you saw these Arabs or the

14 place where they were billeted?

15 A. We saw these Arabs in the village of Borovnica. The unit I

16 arrived with was supposed to report to a location that was one kilometre

17 away from the village of Borovnica. At that location we put up our tents

18 on -- in a meadow next to a river.

19 Q. Did you come to learn anything about these Arabs at any point in

20 time?

21 A. Yes. When our unit arrived in the area I mentioned earlier, we

22 put up a camp. My unit had three tents which were supposed to

23 accommodate my men. In addition to my unit there were two more units

24 from the 3rd Corps there. We reached the location six to seven days

25 ahead of the action. We were involved in preparations. In the course of

Page 7756

1 these preparations we talked about the Arabs who were unknown to us.

2 The commander I was subordinated to informed us that through the

3 security services he inquired after these Arabs and he received a

4 response to the effect that these Arabs were not members of the El

5 Mujahid unit. Later on we learned that this was a group of Arabs under a

6 commander know as Zubeir.

7 Q. Witness, the transcript does not reflect what you said. Oh, now

8 it's been corrected. Thank you. I apologise.

9 Since the transcript remains unclear, can you tell us what it was

10 that the services established, and this is something you already said,

11 and what was it you learnt about the name of the group? We don't have it

12 in the record.

13 A. I didn't receive any official documents from the security

14 service, but the commander I was subordinated to informed us that this

15 unit did not belong to El Mujahid, rather, that this was Zubeir's group.

16 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw these individuals. Can you

17 describe for us what they looked like, what they wore, whether they had

18 any insignia? Describe them, please.

19 A. Some of these Arabs wore uniforms without any insignia or

20 emblems. Others we saw wearing part uniform, part Arab wear, and others

21 were dressed in Arab wear only.

22 Q. You told us that you reached the village of Borovnica six or

23 seven days ahead of the attack in order to prepare and that you saw the

24 group. Can you tell us what was the last time you saw the group before

25 the attack, if you saw it at that time?

Page 7757

1 A. A day before the assignment was to be implemented we had short

2 preparations focusing on the start of combat activities. The number of

3 these Arabs in the village of Borovnica increased. I can't give you the

4 exact figures. I can only tell you that it was a large group.

5 After that to ensure mutual trust among the units of the BH army

6 and some other units that were to join us with the start of the combat

7 activities, we mingled our units. We mixed the compositions of our units

8 in the following way: Ten members of my unit went to join the manoeuvre

9 battalion under the command of Sead Rekic. Ten members joined the

10 reconnaissance company of the 3rd Corps, and ten members from each of

11 these units arrived to join my unit.

12 Q. Pause there, please. When you say from their units, which units

13 are you referring to?

14 A. I'm referring to the units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina with

15 which we were engaged in preparations. The reconnaissance company of the

16 3rd Corps and the manoeuvre battalion under the command of Sead Rekic.

17 I'm referring to those.

18 Q. Let us clarify the transcript. I heard your answer. My question

19 was when you last saw the group of Arabs. You answered my question, but

20 it is not reflected in the record.

21 You were describing this, but you didn't say when it was that you

22 saw the group.

23 A. I said that it was one day before the start of the combat

24 activities that the group that was in the village of Borovnica grew.

25 Their numbers increased.

Page 7758

1 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that you saw it one day before the

2 start of the attack?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What kind of task was your unit given?

5 A. Our unit was given the following task: The commander of our

6 unit, Sead Rekic, issued us with an order to attack along the following

7 axis, Gradac-Ostric as far as I can remember.

8 Q. Can you please turn to the map now and circle the places of

9 Gradac and Ostric.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. We were referring to the axis. Did you accomplish this task or

12 not?

13 A. Yes. We accomplished our task and we captured the features of

14 Gradac and Ostric.

15 Q. My next question has to do with the group of Arabs you described

16 were present in the village of Borovnica. At any point in time did you

17 see that group during combat activities?

18 A. Yes, I did. Once we captured those features, namely Gradac and

19 Ostric, the unknown group -- that same unknown group of Arabs reached

20 these features soon thereafter.

21 Q. Tell us, to your knowledge did this group or not take part in any

22 preparations of combat activities together with you? Was it planned that

23 it should proceed in these activities together with you?

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. Is my understanding correct now, can you tell me first of all did

Page 7759

1 you see that group of Arabs during combat activities? Or in fact you've

2 answered this. You said that you saw them at some point.

3 Can you tell us where this was that you saw the group?

4 A. After we captured those facilities this unknown group of Arabs

5 came after us.

6 Q. And what happened after that, if anything happened?

7 A. My unit, the army units, had further tasks, and that was to go

8 down to the village of Stog, and we acted accordingly. The unit, we went

9 down to the village of Stog and we remained there for four or five hours.

10 And this unknown group of Arabs remained there. They did not go down

11 with us to the village of Stog, the village that I mentioned.

12 We stayed there for four or five hours.

13 Q. Witness, would just like you to find the village of Stog if you

14 can and to circle it, and also to indicate with an arrow the direction of

15 your movement.

16 A. No, I can't see it here.

17 Q. Witness, yes. Well, it is quite clear and it's on the record

18 that you were talking about the village of Stog.

19 Now I want to ask you this: You said that you saw this group,

20 but were you able to observe in what direction they were moving or not?

21 Now I'm talking about the Arabs. The last time you saw them,

22 were you able to observe in which direction they were moving?

23 A. To our knowledge, to the knowledge of those people in our units

24 who actually saw those Arabs, the Arabs moved northwards from those

25 features that we mentioned.

Page 7760

1 Q. When you say "the features that we mentioned" --

2 A. I mean Gradac and Ostric, those two features. That's what I

3 meant.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry, Ms. Vidovic. How many Arabs were there?

5 Was that the entire Zubeir's group that they met on the Ostric feature,

6 or was it only part of the Arab unit?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, you've heard the question. Could you please answer it.

9 How large was this group? How many people did you see there in fact? Do

10 you know how large Zubeir's group was? If you can answer that and then

11 tell us how many people you saw?

12 A. Your Honour, I don't know the strength of Zubeir's group, and on

13 that day there was a large group, and they came in our wake once we

14 captured those features, Gradac and Ostric. There were 40 to 50 of them.

15 That's my assessment.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And was that roughly the same number of people

17 that you had seen in Borovnica?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, approximately.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, now I would like to ask you this: You mentioned that

22 the last time that you saw them was at those two features, and you said

23 that they were heading north. Now, could you please show the Trial

24 Chamber where those two features are, and if you can mark the direction

25 in which they were moving on this map.

Page 7761

1 A. The features that we're talking about are Gradac and Ostric.

2 They are here. And the route that they moved on, it's -- well, I can't

3 give you the exact route, but it's north from these features, in the

4 direction -- in this direction.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now I would first like to ask you this: All

6 of these things that you are describing for us, can you remember what day

7 it happened in relation to the day when the operation started?

8 A. I don't know the exact day when the operation started, but the

9 first day when we received the task the same group headed in this

10 direction. We went down to the village of Stog, our unit went down, and

11 we stayed there for four or five hours, and then we received orders to go

12 back to where we had been when we started with the combat activities.

13 Q. On that day, Witness, I just want to ask you this: It's not

14 clear whether it was on the first day of the combat activities, the

15 second, the third. Can you be more specific? This thing that you're

16 describing, what day of the combat activities was it?

17 A. The first day.

18 Q. Thank you. And now you started describing what happened next.

19 You told us that you went back to Borovnica. Do you recall that this is

20 what you've said just recently?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever see this group of Arabs again in Borovnica?

23 A. Once we got back to the sector where the unit was stationed, and

24 as we passed through the village of Borovnica we didn't see this group of

25 Arabs.

Page 7762

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, why were they ordered back from

2 Stog to Borovnica?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please answer this question from His Honour. Why did

5 you go back to Borovnica from Stog?

6 A. Your Honour, it was not my responsibility to analyse or consider

7 the orders from our commanders. On the orders of the unit commander,

8 once we completed our task we were ordered to go back to the village of

9 Borovnica. I don't know why.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now I would like to ask you this: You mentioned -- you said that

13 this group of Arabs that you saw in Borovnica was under the command of

14 Zubeir. Was that the only person with this -- was it or not the same

15 person by this name or nickname, Zubeir, that you knew?

16 A. I heard that this group was under the command of a man by the

17 name of Zubeir. Arabs used this name often. In my unit I had an Arab

18 who was nicknamed Zubeir.

19 Q. This man from your group, was he in any way related to this group

20 of Arabs or not, the large group of Arabs that you've just described or

21 not?

22 A. No, absolutely none.

23 Q. Could you please give us the physical description of this person

24 Zubeir from your group.

25 A. He was thin, rather thin. He weighed 65 to 70 kilos,

Page 7763

1 thereabouts. He was a metre and 80 centimetres tall, or perhaps even

2 less. He had a rather short beard. He was a well-mannered man,

3 disciplined man in our unit, and he had nothing to do with this group

4 that you were asking me about.

5 Q. Did you know this man well? Zubeir, from your unit I mean.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To your knowledge did he or not have any contacts with the

8 security services in the 3rd Corps or your brigade?

9 A. No, he didn't have any such contacts. The unit that Zubeir was

10 part of, the anti-armour company, well, he couldn't go to the corps, to

11 the brigade on his own to make any kind of statements. In the 319th, the

12 security service was in contact only with the unit commanders. And since

13 we in the unit did not have -- it was a company-level unit. We didn't

14 have a security officer.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this --

17 to tender this map into evidence.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: The map is admitted. May it be given an exhibit

19 number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map will become Exhibit number

21 1320.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

24 questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 7764

1 Over to Ms. Sartorio.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

4 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Laurie Sartorio. I'm a

5 representative of the Prosecution in this case and I'm going to be asking

6 you a few questions.

7 Now, you -- you have given two statements to the investigators of

8 this Tribunal, once in November of 2004 and once in March, the 10th of

9 March of 2008; is that correct?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please switch off the microphone.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did give statements to the

12 investigators.


14 Q. And during your interview with the investigators you gave full

15 and truthful and complete answers to the best of your knowledge. Isn't

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, with regards to questions put to you by the investigator

19 with regard to the El Mujahedin Detachment, do you recall telling the

20 investigator that you had no contact with the El Mujahedin Detachment,

21 you knew that they were present in Bosnia-Herzegovina but you didn't know

22 under whose command they were, and you basically didn't know anything

23 about this unit, did you?

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Ms. Sartorio.

25 Madam Vidovic.

Page 7765

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please get the

2 specific information about the statement that she's referring to. Which

3 one of the two statements is she referring to now?

4 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. I could do that. We can, in

5 fact -- we could bring it up on the screen. It's the 9th of November,

6 2004, statement, which is -- it's PT6 -- P06265. Specifically paragraph

7 41.

8 Could you please turn to paragraph 41 in the Bosnian/Croatian

9 version. Thank you.

10 Q. So, sir, looking at paragraph 41 of this statement, you stated

11 that you had no contact with the El Mujahedin Detachment. You knew that

12 they were present in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but you did not know whose

13 command they were under. Is that what you said?

14 A. First let me say the statement from 2004 was never given to me in

15 my mother tongue.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please switch

17 off her microphone when the witness is answering the question.

18 MS. SARTORIO: It's off.

19 Now where are we? Did the witness --

20 Q. Well, sir, when you gave -- you gave the statement you had

21 signed, if you want to look at the last page of the statement. Is that

22 your signature on the statement? The statement was read back to you in

23 your native tongue. Isn't that correct?

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio, the trick is that you have to turn

25 off your microphone so as to ensure that the witness's voice is not being

Page 7766

1 recognised. We are in open session.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. I was not given

3 this statement in my mother tongue, Bosnian, and it is true that I did

4 not have any contacts with the El Mujahedin Detachment. I was aware of

5 the fact that they were present in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I didn't know

6 under whose command they were, that's true, and it was not my job to know

7 who their commander was. I heard what I heard. I heard that they

8 participated in the Vozuca operation, but I did not see them myself.


10 Q. And not only did you not see them, sir, but you've never met any

11 one from the El Mujahedin Detachment. You did not know where they

12 operated, did you? And you did not know where they command post was, did

13 you?

14 A. No, I did not know that. We had our own preparations to take

15 care of, and we had very little time to accomplish our task. So I don't

16 know where the command post was and where the axis of operation was of

17 the El Mujahedin Detachment.

18 Q. And in June of 1993, were you engaged in any combat operations

19 for the 319th Brigade?

20 A. In June 1993, I was in the military police. I was just an

21 ordinary military police soldier, and I went wherever the TO -- or,

22 rather, I don't recall having participated in any operations.

23 Q. So in -- let's stick with June of 1993. You were not near the

24 vicinity of the Travnik municipality, in particular to any places called

25 Maline or Bikosi, were you?

Page 7767

1 A. No, I was not there.

2 Q. And you have no idea which units of the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina were fighting there; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct. I don't know that.

5 Q. And in July of 1995, at that point in time I believe that you

6 were a commander of a small company in the Green Berets. Is that -- is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And during this time period was -- were you part of the operation

10 to lift the blockade of Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes. The unit was dispatched to the Sarajevo front line too.

12 Q. And you were not operating near the municipality of Zavidovici,

13 and you were nowhere near the village of Livade, were you, in July of

14 1995?

15 A. No, I was not.

16 Q. Now, before joining the Green Berets, you were -- as you said,

17 you were a member of the military police. And so as a member of the

18 military police, did you investigate crimes or other matters of

19 discipline involving soldiers of -- of certain units?

20 A. My task as an ordinary rank and file military police soldier was

21 not to carry out any investigations. On the orders of the military

22 police commander, I would carry out my tasks and duties.

23 As far as I can remember, there were no perpetrators that had to

24 be brought in on this basis.

25 Q. But there was a military police battalion in place, and there

Page 7768

1 were procedures, were there not, for investigations to be conducted if

2 there was misconduct on the part of soldiers; is that correct?

3 A. I'm sorry, I have to say that there was no military police

4 battalion in that area. There were 25 members of the military police

5 there. It's a platoon. It was part of the 319th Brigade.

6 Q. Okay. But as part -- as a platoon, 25 members, were there --

7 weren't there procedures in place for investigating and prosecuting

8 soldiers who had committed crimes or misconduct? If you had a Military

9 Police Platoon, you had to have procedures. Is that fair to say?

10 A. There was a procedure in place on the orders of the commander,

11 komandir. If there were any such cases we would bring those soldiers in,

12 and then the commander would deal with them in collaboration with the

13 security officers from the 319th Brigade and the commander of that

14 brigade.

15 Q. Now, on the subject of the person named Zubeir that was discussed

16 on your direct examination and the one not in your unit but the so-called

17 commander, you never met this person, did you?

18 A. No. Zubeir who led those unknown Arabs, no. I had the Zubeir,

19 the man that I described who was in my unit.

20 Q. So anything that you learned or that you -- that you think you

21 know regarding this Zubeir and his unit, it's all secondhand knowledge

22 that you've heard from other people; is that correct?

23 A. When I saw this group of Arabs in the village of Borovnica, I

24 heard they were under the command of this man by the name of Zubeir.

25 That's what I heard.

Page 7769

1 Q. But that's all you can tell us, sir, today is that you heard that

2 from someone? You have no personal knowledge about anything having to do

3 with this group, do you?

4 A. I don't have any such knowledge.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Now, if we could bring up the March 2008

6 statement, which is -- I don't have the PT number. It's P06266. And

7 particularly paragraph 43. Sorry, I think it's -- I apologise. No,

8 that's the wrong statement. It's -- yes. Okay.

9 Q. Now, sir, I believe you testified on direct examination that on

10 the first day of the Operation Farz, and if you look at paragraph 43, you

11 state that you were supposed to take the elevations marked 2 and 3,

12 namely Ostric and Gradac, and to descend to the village of Stog. That

13 was our task for the operations. As far as I recall the operation was

14 named Farz. That's the extent of your knowledge and your participation

15 in this operation on the first day; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were in Stog for -- from approximately 10.00 in the

18 morning until 3.00 in the afternoon; is that correct?

19 A. Something like that.

20 Q. And then you were ordered to retreat back to your -- your home

21 base, Zeljezno Polje; right?

22 A. No. We received an order to go back to the camp where we had

23 been, the deployment area.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to ask the

Page 7770

1 Prosecutor once again to switch off the microphone. I'm sorry to be

2 barging in like this, but she is keeping her mike on all the time.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm not used to shutting it

4 off. I'm only human. I will try to remember from now on and maybe --

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sure. Could your case manager assist and make

6 sure that the microphone is turned off. Thank you very much.


8 Q. Well, could we look at paragraph 55, please, of the same

9 statement.

10 In this statement, sir, you say: "We were ordered by Rekic as

11 well as by the commander of our brigade to return to Zeljezno Polje." Is

12 that what you said in your statement last week?

13 A. Yes. We received an order at the end of the task. We first went

14 to the village where we had been stationed before the beginning of the

15 combat operations near the village of Borovnica. This is where we spent

16 the night. And then the next day, in the afternoon, we went back to

17 Zeljezno Polje. That's what I meant.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Now, if we may look at

19 paragraph 49 of this statement.

20 Sir, in paragraph 49 you state: "After we had captured the

21 elevation of Ostric and Gradac and started descending in the direct of

22 the village of Stog, we saw that those unknown Arabs came to Ostric and

23 Gradac. That was the last time we saw of them."

24 So my question to you is you don't say in this statement that you

25 saw them heading north, did you?

Page 7771

1 A. That is the last time that I saw them and the unit that was

2 there, members of my unit saw them going in the direction of the north.

3 That's what I said.

4 Q. Well, that is not reflected in your statement. Did you tell the

5 investigator that --

6 A. I wrote when I saw them for the last time. So while we were

7 trying to capture these elevations, Gradac and Ostric, after we started

8 descending towards Stog this unknown group of Arabs headed north.

9 Q. But again, your knowledge of where this unknown group went is

10 based on something someone else told you. You have no personal

11 knowledge. You didn't see where they went, did you?

12 A. Their final objective I don't know, but when we started

13 descending towards the village of Stog the direction they were heading

14 was north.

15 Q. But you didn't personally see them heading in any direction, did

16 you?

17 A. Excuse me, but I was commanding my unit and I was not with them.

18 I had my own task and what I saw I told you about. So as I said, these

19 unknown Arabs headed north.

20 Q. Okay. Well, again, sir, you didn't say that they headed north

21 until today, and you've also told us that you didn't see them, that you

22 heard this from someone else. So you have no personal knowledge what

23 this group did after this elevation was taken, do you?

24 A. In paragraph 49 that you've mentioned of my statement, no one

25 actually asked me about these Arabs and where they were headed. And

Page 7772

1 today I gave that answer to the question posed by Madam Vidovic because

2 she asked me.

3 MS. SARTORIO: One moment, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought

5 that you answered Mrs. Vidovic by the following: That you saw that they

6 were going north, not that you heard that they were going north. I'll

7 have to check and double-check the transcript to be sure. But could you

8 confirm that you did not see them going north but that you heard others

9 say that they were moving north?

10 A. I saw these men heading north after we started descending to the

11 village of Stog.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio, as far as I can make it out on the

13 map, the Zubeir unit must have followed the witness's unit in almost the

14 same direction as they were descending from Ostric, but maybe you can

15 elicit this with the witness.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. May we bring up map 11 again, please.

17 06186706.

18 Actually, I would -- I apologise. Can we have the exhibit that

19 the Defence froze? Thank you.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: That -- Exhibit 1320, I believe it was.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, 1320.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe if we can enlarge the map so as to see more

23 clearly the letters on the map just around the place where the arrow

24 crosses the river. Sorry.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Maybe a little bit smaller so you can see the

Page 7773

1 words.


3 MS. SARTORIO: Now, I would like to ask the witness to mark

4 something on this as well, and then I'll have it marked as another

5 exhibit, if I may. Would that be ...

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can you diminish the photo a bit? It is

7 almost -- it is completely illegible.


9 Q. Sir, could you tell the Court where Stog is on this map?

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio, from the reproduction on my monitor

11 it's not possible. I think you should give him a hard copy of the map.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. I have it, or it's highlighted on my map,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think Judge Lattanzi's map is unmarked, so we

15 can borrow that. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, what am I supposed to

17 mark?

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio?


20 Q. Sir, would you mark -- I'm trying to see the map myself, what the

21 witness is looking at. Are we able to see what the witness is looking

22 at?

23 Sir, I would like you to re-mark here where Gradac and Ostric

24 are.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 7774

1 Q. So you've underlined the names of those two places. Is that what

2 you just did?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, could you indicate on this map where Stog is?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And what direction is Stog from Gradac and Ostric?

7 A. It is northward, Stog.

8 Q. So you and your unit were heading north; correct?

9 A. Yes. We went to the village of Stog.

10 Q. And the last time you saw this group of Arabs at Gradac, they

11 were also heading north. That's your testimony; right?

12 A. Yes, but they didn't use the same road towards the village of

13 Stog, not the same road which my unit and we were taking, because I

14 didn't see them when we got there.

15 Q. And after the first day of the operation, you don't know what

16 took place on the second day, do you?

17 A. I don't.

18 MS. SARTORIO: May I have a moment, Your Honour? Thank you.

19 Q. Just a few more questions, sir. And you have knowledge of any

20 combat activity that took place on the second day or whether any

21 prisoners of war were ever taken? You have no knowledge of this, do you?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. And you've never been -- have you ever been in the area -- was

24 your unit ever in the area of Kesten?

25 A. No, it wasn't.

Page 7775

1 MS. SARTORIO: I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Sartorio.

3 Madam Vidovic, any redirect?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one question.

5 Re-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as regards this group of Arabs that we

7 were discussing earlier, have you ever heard whether they participated or

8 not in further combat operations in Vozuca? Do you know anything about

9 that? And I'm referring to this time period.

10 A. After we returned to the sector, all that I know is that they

11 went to fight. I didn't see any of that. I heard this from the people

12 who were in my unit.

13 Q. So you heard that they went to fight.

14 A. Yes, that they went to fight.

15 Q. Did you ever learn how long they participated in the fighting or

16 not?

17 A. No. We returned to Zeljezno Polje, so I didn't learn anything

18 about that.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

22 Judge Lattanzi.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Two short questions.

25 Witness, you said that during the time that you were part of your

Page 7776

1 unit there were some eight or nine Arabs in the unit as well. You also

2 indicated that four of these Arabs were killed. Were those Arabs who

3 were killed ever replaced during that time period up to the end of the

4 war?

5 A. Eight to nine Arabs were in my unit. I don't know what you mean

6 when you say were they replaced, the men who were killed. What exactly

7 do you mean? By whom?

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] By other Arabs. I just wanted

9 to clarify that point.

10 If at a certain point during the war there were only four or five

11 Arabs left, so were there always four or five or were the others replaced

12 and were they eight again?

13 A. All the time, including the men who were killed, there were eight

14 to nine in the unit, in the anti-armour company.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Another question.

16 You said that at the company level there was no security service. If you

17 know, to your knowledge, was the El Mujahedin Detachment organised in

18 companies?

19 A. In our unit in the company we didn't have a security organ. The

20 unit commander was also the security person, and he was the person who

21 communicated with the military security service of the 319th Brigade, and

22 any information -- as for information as to how the El Mujahedin

23 Detachment was organised, I really don't know about that.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question to your

25 answer. So the lowest level in which there was a security service, was

Page 7777

1 it the brigade?

2 A. No, it was at the battalion level, but we were a unit that

3 directly communicated with the brigade command.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 A. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Witness DW4, I have a few questions to you also.

7 First of all, the unit that you commanded, how many soldiers were

8 assigned to that unity approximately? How big was it? I'm speaking of

9 the anti-armour unit.

10 A. In the beginning there were 30 to 35 men, and when I became the

11 unit commander the unit numbered 60 to 65 fighters. This company.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: So that was the company unit basically.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: How were fighters assigned to your company?

15 A. The unit was established on the basis or from the Reconnaissance

16 Platoon that I had joined in 1993 which at the time numbered 35 men, and

17 from then on it was regularly -- it was regularly replenished with men

18 from the brigade. So able-bodied men who were -- who had the desire to

19 join this unit, they would run this through the brigade, and then the

20 brigade would send us a document saying such-and-such individuals were

21 being assigned to your unit. And for the main part this unit was

22 composed of volunteers who were rather -- who observed religious tenets.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Does this procedure for assignment also

24 apply to the Arabs that you had in your company?

25 A. Yes. The man who was in charge for personnel in the unit and who

Page 7778

1 was in contact with the brigade, his name was Hasan. He maintained

2 contacts with the brigade and he kept the records of who members of the

3 unit were. I knew of this eight to nine who were part of the unit. And

4 those Arabs had gone through the regular procedure, all the procedures in

5 order to obtain the status of member of the unit, these eight to nine, as

6 far as I know.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. One last question relating to the

8 time you spent in -- in the military police before you became the company

9 commander. The question I was just curious to have your answer to is to

10 know if you were any -- if you at any point were involved in the

11 investigation of war crimes, that is to say violations of the Geneva

12 Conventions that you told us about. Did any war crimes occur while you

13 were serving in the military police and, if so, were you involved in the

14 investigation of those crimes?

15 A. No. While I was in the military police I was not involved, nor

16 did I know that any war crimes were committed, nor were there any

17 investigations as far as I can recall.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did any war crimes occur during your time as

19 company commander?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

22 Madam Sartorio.

23 MS. SARTORIO: No further questions, Your Honour, but I would

24 like to tender the map as an exhibit, but I understand that's

25 Judge Lattanzi's copy. We will send another copy down to the Judge if

Page 7779

1 that would be possible.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I think that is donated from

3 Judge Lattanzi to the official record.

4 Ms. Vidovic.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map will become Exhibit 1321.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just two short

8 questions that arise from Judge Harhoff's questions.

9 Further re-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

10 Q. Witness, this eight to nine Arabs that you talked about, when you

11 came to the brigade did you find them there?

12 A. Yes. Or, rather, they were in that unit, in the anti-armour

13 company. In the Green Beret unit, that's where I found them when I came

14 to be their commander, komandir.

15 Q. Do you know how they happened to be in that unit?

16 A. I couldn't say that. I wouldn't know how they went through

17 certain procedures in order to be within the Green Beret unit. And that

18 wasn't my task. I was the unit commander, and there were other people

19 who were in charge of keeping records, so I wouldn't know of that.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

23 DW4, this concludes your testimony. It didn't last as long as we

24 had expected. So you're now free to travel home. I wish, on behalf of

25 the Tribunal, to thank you warmly for coming here and giving your

Page 7780

1 testimony. It has been useful, and I wish you a safe journey back to

2 your home. Thank you very much.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: And you may leave.

5 Mr. Usher, would you kindly escort the --

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we just move to

7 private session while the witness is leaving the courtroom?

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Indeed. We will have to move to closed session.

9 Sorry.

10 [Closed session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7781

1 (redacted)

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.57 a.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day

4 of March, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.