1 Wednesday, 26 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

7 courtroom.

8 Madam Registrar, can you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon

10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The

11 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have the

13 appearance, please, starting with the Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

15 Honour, learned counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom.

16 Daryl Mundis and Kyle Wood for the Prosecution assisted by our case

17 manager, Alma Imamovic-Ivanov.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, good

20 afternoon to my colleagues from the Prosecution, to everyone in the

21 courtroom and around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson

22 for the accused and legal assistant Lana Deljkic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 Good afternoon to you, sir.

25 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: At the beginning of your testimony yesterday you

2 made a declaration to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing else but

3 the truth. Do you remember that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I take this opportunity to remind you that you

6 are still bound by that declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth,

7 and nothing else but the truth. Okay?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Understood.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 Madam Vidovic.

11 WITNESS: VAHID KARAVELIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General Karavelic. I hope you

16 have had a good rest and that we can continue today where we left off

17 yesterday.

18 We have been discussing the problems you had with certain units.

19 We also discussed the Presidency and the use of force, and I wish to

20 develop that subject today, to meet also the request of Honourable

21 Judge Harhoff.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at Exhibit number

23 9, please.

24 For the record, it is a decree law on the armed forces of Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina, adopted on the 20th of May, 1992 --

1 Q. And, Witness --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 Madam Vidovic?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now provide a

5 clarification. It was promulgated in November as indicated above the

6 title, but I will ask for a moment to move to the last page in Bosnian

7 and the last page in English. The decree law was enacted, it says in

8 Article 43. This decree law enters into force immediately and shall be

9 promulgated in the Official Gazette, 20th May, 1992. It was adopted in

10 May, and it was published in November.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I now ask the legal officer to

13 take us back to the first page and zoom in on Article 8 and 9. Page 2 of

14 the English version.

15 We can already see it in Bosnian. We need page 2 in English.

16 Thank you.

17 Q. General, could you please look at Article 8, and then Article 9,

18 focussing on item 5.

19 Before I ask your comment, did you hold this decree law in your

20 hands at the time of the war?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you now look at Article 8. I will quote this

23 single sentence: "The Presidency of the Republic shall be the highest

24 body of the command and control of the army."

25 And then Article 9, item 5: "Shall determine the plan of

1 employment of the army in the event of war and order the employment of

2 the army in peacetime and war."

3 Could you briefly comment upon these?

4 A. As the document says, the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina, was the highest command of the armed forces of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina, including the army. The item 5 explicitly says that for

7 any kind of employment of the army in peacetime and in war, in other

8 words, for the use of armed force it is precisely that body, the

9 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as the Supreme Command that is

10 responsible.

11 Q. Thank you. You described yesterday a situation that you had

12 involving disobedient units and on that occasion you addressed, you

13 approached, the Presidency and the president himself, Mr. Izetbegovic.

14 Who had the authority, who was the one who should have requested the use

15 of force in that situation?

16 A. In that situation, the commander of the corps. That is me, and I

17 did that.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now look at

19 Exhibit 218, under seal. We would need to move into private session. I

20 would like to question the witness on this and the next exhibit in

21 private session.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

23 [Private session]

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25 (redacted)

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 I would like to show Exhibit 959 to the witness next.

11 For the record, there is minutes of the council for the

12 protection of constitutional order held on the 24th of November, 1993.

13 Could we please display the English version so that we can see

14 the whole page at once.

15 Could the witness see page 3, please?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.

17 MR. WOOD: Just to point an of clarification, Your Honour, there

18 does appear to be a discrepancy at the top it says 24 November 1993 but

19 it -- in the body of the text it says held on 28 October 1993. This is

20 something that should perhaps be clarified before Defence counsel goes

21 further with this document, or at the very least corrected in the record.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the discrepancy, Mr. Wood?

23 MR. WOOD: Well, in the transcript --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have told us the different dates but what is

25 the discrepancy in those dates? You mean you can't report on the 24th

1 about a meeting that took place on the 28th of October.

2 MR. WOOD: Certainly, but what the record reflects right now is

3 that this meeting was held on the 24th of November 1993 and that is not

4 what the body of the text actually reflects this is dated 24

5 November 1993 line 5, page 15, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that is something with the record. That's

7 nothing to do with the exhibit itself.

8 MR. WOOD: No, Your Honour, it has to do with the record, you're

9 correct.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's right, so the record -- maybe she

11 misspoke that, I don't know. She can explain that.

12 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, but there is nothing wrong with the

14 document as it stands before us.

15 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Witness, please have a look at page 3, item 5. It is page 3 in

18 the English as well.

19 Witness, Mr. Karavelic, your name is mentioned in item 5. Is it

20 you?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. It says here: "Mr. Vahid Karavelic, the 1st Corps commander,

23 stated that the operation had been successful and although it was called

24 for sooner, there had been no political will to do so."

25 First and foremost I would like to ask you the following: As you

1 can see it was a meeting of the council for the protection of the

2 constitutional order. Did you attend any such meetings and tell us

3 whether there reflects the discussion at that particular meeting, if you

4 were in attendance?

5 A. I attended several such meetings. This part that you referred to

6 reflects the situation as it was.

7 Q. You are quoted as having said that some were asking for the

8 action or operation to be undertaken earlier but that there was no

9 political will.

10 Can you explain to us what it means?

11 A. It means ... as I said yesterday, as of May 1993, the 1st Corps

12 command was demanding that disobedient commanders be replaced. As time

13 went on, the situation grew worse. We kept repeating our demands, asking

14 for it to be done at any time, but what was missing was the key decision

15 that was supposed to be made by the president of the Presidency of B&H as

16 the Supreme Commander. Therefore, the operation could not take place

17 before the 26th October 1993, when, finally, he approved it.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, just a little interruption it has

19 been partly corrected on two occasions the interpretation has interpreted

20 that the word "decision" in paragraph 5 of this document as "will." It

21 is only now finally that the word decision has been mentioned by the

22 interpretation.

23 Was it political will or political decision that was lacking.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Decision, Your Honour. It is very

25 clearly stated in the document, "decision."

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand it is just that the interpretation on

2 two occasions has talked of "will."

3 Thank you very much. Decision, we know it's "decision" now.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, let's just clarify one more thing. What were you

6 talking about, the political will or a political decision?

7 A. Political decision.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now

10 please be shown Exhibit 959.

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Political decision was made by

12 the Presidency or by the president himself? That's a question I want to

13 ask.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This will call for a longish

15 answer.

16 When I, in mid-October 1993, at my insistence when I finally went

17 to see President Izetbegovic and when he received me, I told him,

18 Mr. President, you have appointed me as commander, corps commander, two

19 months ago, or a bit longer, if you do not issue in writing as soon as

20 possible that I can use any type of armed force in order to bring the

21 chain of command and the commanding in the corps in -- to a normal level

22 I cannot accept to continue in this position as commander of the

23 1st Corps.

24 And then he answered.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was long conversation.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... please don't

3 tell us the details of that. Was the decision made by the president of

4 the Presidency or was it made by the Presidency? Just answer that part

5 of it. We haven't got much time.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would have been my -- the next

7 thing I was going to say.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... who made the

9 decision.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then he told me --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just wait.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the Presidency of

15 the Supreme Command that they made this decision.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

17 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now please

19 see Exhibit D555. I apologise, D955.

20 Your Honour, unfortunately, this is the Official Gazette that we

21 had in electronic form. It is a bit dark. But in fact, it is only the

22 title that will is blacked out. This is an decree law on amendments to

23 the decree Law on the Armed Forces.

24 Q. General, can you tell us, have you had occasion to see this

25 decree law? Have I shown this to you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you have occasion to see this during the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would now like to point to you to Article 2 of this decree law.

5 Would you please read it.

6 General, could you please comment on this? What is stipulated by

7 Article 2 here?

8 A. Article 2 of this decree stipulates that the Supreme Command may,

9 for a portion of their work, of the work that is to be carried out by

10 units of the civilian police, that the Supreme Command may, for some of

11 those jobs, use also units of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please have a

14 number, an Exhibit number for this.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become exhibit

18 number 1335.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

20 Can I just ask one little question before we go further, just for

21 clarification.

22 General, you say that you went to talk to the president of the

23 Presidency. Did the chain of command not demand that you speak to the

24 General -- to the commander of the army and that he speaks to the

25 president of the Presidency?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right. And I did

2 speak with the army commander a number of times, on numerous occasions,

3 and I also believed that the army commander had spoke -- talked to

4 President Izetbegovic. However, at this time, when I had this meeting

5 with President Izetbegovic, this was actually -- this culminated the

6 situation because I was issued threats, threats to the effect that I will

7 be put on the spit, and at this point I decided to go and see the

8 commander, because at -- at this point I went to see him, because the

9 commander was not in town at that time. Or maybe it was with his

10 permission. I cannot really remember exactly.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please. [Microphone not activated]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. General, just a few more questions that have to do with the

16 situation with Celo and Caco.

17 During your testimony, you mentioned that the commanders of these

18 two renegade brigades did not enjoy the support of all members of its

19 brigades. Could you tell us, the percentage of people, approximately,

20 who supported these commanders?

21 A. It is true, these commanders did not enjoy the support of the

22 entire complements. I can say that approximately one-fourth of the ranks

23 in their brigades had supported them.

24 Q. I would also like to ask you this. By how you judge the

25 atmosphere in Sarajevo when these units were concerned, what was the

1 position in the city, in terms of support for these renegade units?

2 A. For the most part, it was negative and a very small percentage, a

3 very small number of people supported them, actually.

4 Q. Another question. So the 1st Corps carried out this operation.

5 How many soldiers did it use in this showdown; do you recall? Which

6 forces attacked these units?

7 A. Yes, I remember, of course. I used up to 5.000 men, and these

8 5.000 men were men from my corps alone.

9 Q. In addition to these forces from your corps, were there any other

10 forces that were involved in this operation?

11 A. Yes. Units of the Ministry of Interior; in other words, civilian

12 police.

13 Q. How many of those units?

14 A. I think there were about 500 men.

15 Q. You said that as the first superior of these recalcitrant unit,

16 disobedient units, that you demanded the use of force. Tell me, what are

17 those occasions where you can actually ask for the use of force? Why did

18 you ask for this and at what point in time?

19 A. The use of the armed force, in my view, is called for in the

20 event of large-scale war crimes in the event of large-scale violations or

21 disturbance of the peace or violations of rights and in those cases where

22 such instances cannot be resolved by disciplinary measures alone.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to do this to you Madam Vidovic. What

24 was the strength of the renegade units. How many soldiers approximately

25 would you say they had, those who supported the renegades, those against

1 whom the 5.500 had to fight.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I will have to add it up.

3 To make it clearer, there were units that we were attacking.

4 Then there were other units that we did not trust, and we were afraid

5 that they might try and support them and attack us from the back. All

6 those units, this entire complement, or ranks, numbered approximately

7 between 2 and 3.000 men.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know how many of them were killed?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 18 men. There were also a

10 number of wounded people, a large number of wounded people.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the rest surrendered.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rest we took prisoner.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But Celo and Caco were killed in the operation.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Caco was killed. Celo was not

15 killed.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Let's just go back -- let's backtrack a bit.

19 You told us that the use of force is called for in situations

20 where there is large-scale violation or disturbance of the peace,

21 violations of peace and discipline and war crimes. Does this include

22 minor infringements or infractions?

23 A. No, infractions are regulated by disciplinary measures.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I think the witness said large-scale war

25 crimes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. General Karavelic, tell me, please, what were the neighbouring

3 corps, neighbouring to you?

4 A. The corps next to mine were the 2nd Tuzla Corps; the 3rd Zenica

5 Corps; and the 4th Mostar Corps.

6 Q. Did you know what the overall situation was in the neighbouring

7 corps; for instance in the 3rd Corps?

8 A. Well, you said well, I did know the overall or global situation

9 more or less. I was familiar with it.

10 Q. Do you know how long the lines of the 3rd Corps were compared to

11 your front lines? Could you describe this a bit?

12 A. It was my lines -- my front lines were considered to be rather

13 long. However, the lines of the 3rd Corps, the defence lines of the

14 3rd Corps, were by far the longest, compared to any other corps in the

15 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Could you make a comparison between the defence lines of your

17 corps and the defence lines held by the 3rd Corps? What would be the

18 ratio?

19 A. Length-wise, I believe the 3rd Corps had double the length of

20 defence line of my corps, and I had double the strength of the 3rd Corps.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: In terms of manpower, I suppose, or also in terms

23 of artillery and weaponry?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same. The level of armament

25 varied very little from corps to corps. Every effort was made to

1 distribute weapons evenly.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. So you had the same artillery but double

3 the number of soldiers at your disposal, compared to the 3rd Corps?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I had the impression the Chamber

7 had questions.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

10 Q. General Karavelic, you testified that you had been through a very

11 difficult situation when you had to establish discipline in your units.

12 Throughout that time, what attitude did General Delic take to this issue,

13 establishing discipline in units?

14 A. I'm saying this with absolute certainty, from his first day as

15 top man in the army, he firmly required that anyone who was not within

16 the chain of command be removed, anyone who did not follow army

17 regulations and observe army discipline, from his very first day to his

18 last day in the army, he invested every effort to build up discipline.

19 But it was a process, and for that process to move faster, a political

20 decision was required, a decision made from the highest command.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, do you know if,

22 regarding this attitude of his, do you know if General Delic asked the

23 Presidency to issue a political decision?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know, I recall, he did ask, on

25 many occasions.

1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And he never obtained a

2 political decision? Always, of course, in support of his attitude with

3 his will to get rid of all the people who did not obey.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot say now whether he

5 ever got it or not, but I know that most times he did not get any reply

6 from the highest command.

7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So how do you know this,

8 Witness?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, specifically, I believe we

10 saw a document, it was earlier today or yesterday, from a meeting in

11 Zenica, from a conference, where it was General Delic who raised a couple

12 of issues that were within the jurisdiction of the Supreme Command, and I

13 know that for a long time afterwards he did not get any reply from the

14 Supreme Command, although he submitted his requests to them.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe we will see this document.

16 Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Just let us clarify one thing. You mentioned the highest command

19 several times. You said a political decision had to be made by the

20 highest command. What did you mean by "the highest command"?

21 A. The Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which

22 was, militarily speaking, called the Supreme Command.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness. I think we can manage one more document

24 before the break, Exhibit 1248.

25 It is, for the record, a document from the Supreme Command of

1 armed forces, dated 29 August 1993. The title is: Conclusions and tasks

2 adopted at the meeting of senior officers of the Main Staff and corps

3 commanders, held in Zenica on 21 and 22 August 1993.

4 Witness, General, could you please look at the passage where all

5 the people from the corps are indicated as present. Do you see your

6 name?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Did you attend that conference?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll the document down

11 to see the rest of the text. And then if we could move to the next page.

12 Q. Please focus on item 7 on this page. When you've read it, please

13 give us your comments.

14 A. This item 7 mentions, in terms of this conference on training and

15 discipline, that the staff commander speaks openly of problems that we

16 encountered at every level in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina as far

17 as lack of discipline is concerned and lack of military training of both

18 officers and soldiers.

19 Speaking of training, he calls for ongoing training of squad

20 commanders and company commanders, because these units are the basic

21 units in armed combat.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 4 of both

24 English and Bosnian.

25 Q. Let me draw your attention to item 9. Could you read it, please.

1 A. I've read it.

2 Q. Do you remember if there was any mention that meeting of

3 independent units that were out of control?

4 A. Yes, they were mentioned.

5 Q. Do you recall, and at this point could we look at item 10, what

6 conclusions was made in relation to these independent units -- units; do

7 you recall?

8 A. I think I do. The conclusion made was that these independent

9 units should be, at all costs, assigned so various units of the corps, so

10 that they could be placed under control more easily in the period that

11 followed.

12 Q. Could you clarify one aspect of the answer you've just given.

13 The reference here is to smaller independent units that should be

14 assigned, distributed across the corps. Could you explain to us with no

15 military knowledge why this was to be done? Why a small unit should be

16 integrated into the corps?

17 A. According to military rules, the staff commander deals with the

18 corps commander, and it is up to the corps commander to fulfil whatever

19 request he received from above and do the actual integration of smaller

20 units within the corps.

21 Q. But who decides on the employment of such units in combat?

22 A. After that, of course, it is the corps commander, or the

23 commander who received that unit.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to make sure we are absolutely clear. The

25 transcript talks of staff commander is that a reference to the commander

1 of the army.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let us clarify with

4 the witness one thing.

5 Q. I said what I asked you was who decides on the further assignment

6 of these forces?

7 A. The commander of the corps.

8 Q. Because we have in the transcript something that is not clear.

9 Yes, because the term "employment" is used.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the counsel ignores the

11 actual meaning of employment.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Who decides on the further employment of these units?

14 A. The commander of the corps and the lower commanders.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really don't

16 understand what's going on. I keep saying who is deciding on the use and

17 I cannot believe that what's in the transcript is correct. I want the

18 word "use," not "employment" used.

19 Q. Please, General, let me ask you again. Who asks about the

20 further use of these units?

21 A. The corps commander and the commanders below him.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a convenient point?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to resolve

24 this, I really cannot understand this. At certain points in certain

25 passages I repeat certain rather simple words, words that are simple to

1 translate from Bosnian into English, such as the word "use," and

2 repeatedly here we get another word, like "employment."

3 Could you please draw the attention of the interpreters or

4 whoever who is typing over there --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought at line -- on page 29, lines 6 to 9 that

6 has now been corrected, Madam Vidovic. Can you see that?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot say but I'm

8 talking about this last line -- which one, Your Honour?

9 I didn't see but what I'm saying is that the word deployment is

10 completely -- is sometimes confused with the word employment. And I --

11 after this session, I will ask for the audiotape to be reviewed and the

12 transcript to be corrected, not to waste time here.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. My question

14 to you had been, Would this be an appropriate time.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, certainly.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Let's take a break and start

17 afresh at 4.00.

18 Court adjourned.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 I would like to show the witness document number 1069.

24 For the record, it is a work plan of the Supreme Command Staff

25 for December 1993.

1 Your Honours, we have an illegible version in e-court, but we

2 strove to have a clean version in hard copy. I would kindly ask the

3 usher to show it to the Prosecution first and then to the witness.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Can we then use the ELMO,

5 Madam Vidovic, now that the witness is going to use that one.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's the B/C/S version. Okay. Never

8 mind.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 For the record, it is a work plan of the RB and H armed force

11 Supreme Command Staff for December 1993. I would kindly ask the witness

12 to have a look at page 7 of the document. It is page 5 in the English

13 version. 7 in B/C/S; and 5 in the English version.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any point specifically on that page,

15 Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 I would kindly ask the witness to have a look at 7.2. You can

18 see it as well. As well as item 8.4. It is also on this page.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that on page 7.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In the B/C/S version it will be page 6, Witness.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just scroll down so that we can see 8.4 in

23 the English. Thank you.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. In our version, we have it as copied. Please find 7.2. Have you

1 found it?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. What is mentioned is a development of a new temporary war

4 formation OG as well as visit and review of the situation in Branches and

5 corps and taking of measures to improve the situation.

6 On this page, we can see that all corps were given this task.

7 Can you comment upon this part of the document. You saw that it refers

8 to December 1993?

9 A. Until that point, we had operational groups as part of the corps,

10 corps, and, as such, the war formations were becoming obsolete, in a

11 sense they could no longer respond to the needs in the field; therefore,

12 we initiated the establishment of new war formations for operative groups

13 which at the same time provided basis to form divisions instead of

14 operational groups in early 1994. That is the gist of item 7.2.

15 As for 8.4, there was a frequent task in different periods,

16 including visits and reviews of the situation in branchs and corps and

17 that would usually be undertaken by the General Staff through its

18 administrations that would go in the field in order to carry out checks

19 in the various branches and units of the corps.

20 Q. Did you also receive such a task for your corps, to review the

21 situation in your units?

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. I would kindly ask you to go to page 3 of the document. It is

24 also page 3 in the English.

25 Witness, in your copy, it is 3.3. The title of the chapter;

1 security administration, and then have you item 3.3.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is mentioned is a certain operation. It terms of what you

4 know, tell us whether certain activities in the units of the army of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina when it comes to resolving the situation with

6 those who were disobedient, was such a situation limited only to the

7 1st Corps?

8 A. No. Such a situation existed in all corps, including other parts

9 of the free territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. Do you know what the code-name was for that operation, or

11 operations?

12 A. Trebevic 2, 3, 4, and so forth.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please give

15 an exhibit number to this document.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be become Exhibit

19 number 1336.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, I was unsure of the relevance of

22 this document. Could you enlighten us.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd be happy to, Your Honour.

24 The last item is relevant for two reasons. Firstly, because

25 measures were being taken in order to resolve the situation in the corps

1 as of late 1993 onwards; secondly, what is being ordered is to continue

2 with the Trebevic-3 operation. As we heard so far, in December 1993, the

3 Trebevic-3 operation was initiated in the area of Zenica. We had several

4 witnesses testify about that, and orders were issued to continue with

5 that operation.

6 If you can recall that. Perhaps I can clarify further. We had

7 some Prosecution witnesses --

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: I remember perfectly well, but the fact that

9 there was an order to continue that operation shows what exactly? I

10 mean, it show that the operation was continued, yes; and so what?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you remember, a

12 witness of the Prosecution, he said that that operation was stopped

13 significantly before that time. As for its continuation, it was

14 partially aimed at the Gerila which had been driven out, as part of the

15 Trebevic-3 operation.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope I did not begin testifying

18 myself. I don't know whether I asked for an exhibit number for this

19 document.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you did, ma'am, and it is Exhibit 1336.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. General Karavelic, on to a different topic now.

23 You told us you were a corps commander between July 1993 and up

24 to a concern point in 1995. We are yet to arrive at that point. But as

25 the corps commander, did you use the manual or the rule book on military

1 discipline?

2 A. Certainly.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have

4 a look at Exhibit 1240 next.

5 For the record, it is a document from the Ministry of Defence,

6 Sarajevo, dated 19th January 1993, sent to the 3rd Corps. I will not ask

7 you whether you have seen this document or not; rather, I will ask you

8 about a part of this document in trying to ascertain what was actually

9 happening in practice. I will quote the last part of the document.

10 Could you please scroll up in the English version so that the

11 Bench can follow. There is just one portion of the text. Once I'm

12 through with the first sentence in Bosnian, I would kindly ask to you go

13 over to the next page in English. However, following the Republic of

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency decision of the 18th of August 1992 on

15 the formation of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina army corps their

16 zones of responsibility and subordination of the strict defence staffs to

17 army corps command, the corps commander is the only officer who has the

18 right and duty to issue decisions to bring those who commit violations

19 before a military disciplinary court.

20 I wanted to ask you this: The sentence I read out, was it

21 implemented, was it put into practice in 1994 and 1995?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who was the competent officer or superior to submit a report

24 against a perpetrator?

25 A. The corps commander.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask that the witness

3 be shown D940 next.

4 Q. I would like to discuss the measures taken within the corps.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D940. It is a document of the

6 Supreme Command Staff of the 14th of July, 1993. The title is: Order on

7 elimination of weaknesses displayed in mobilisation and release of

8 soldiers and MTS in the war units of the army of the Republic of B&H.

9 Q. General, can you read the document on the screen or would you

10 rather have us zoom in on the first paragraph of the document in the

11 Bosnian. That's the part. Yes, thank you. We can see it better now.

12 Have you seen this document before?

13 A. I have.

14 Q. Please focus on item 1 of the order. Perhaps it is easier if I

15 quote. It says:

16 "To all commands, staffs, units and institutions of the RB&H

17 army, I hereby prohibit immediate-direct mobilisation or deployment of

18 conscripts and MTS organised by themselves. Staffing of war units of the

19 army on all levels of commands and control is to be done exclusively by

20 requests through relevant defence secretariats with strict abidance by

21 the legal provisions stipulated by the decree on criteria and regulations

22 for assignment of citizens and material equipment to the armed force and

23 other defence needs."

24 Let us go to page 2 of the document in both versions, item 7, and

25 following that, I will seek your comment.

1 It is a bit difficult to read there Bosnian. I will quote. Item

2 7 says:

3 "I hereby prohibit direct admittance of recruits, volunteers to

4 war units, and the existing recruits, volunteers in war units are to be

5 treated in accordance with point 4 of this staff's order ..."

6 I wanted to ask you this. You said that have you seen this order

7 before. I want to ask you whether you received it and whether the corps

8 were duty-bound to implement it, and that should include all the units of

9 the army?

10 A. Yes. I received it, and we were duty-bound to implement it.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 Madam Vidovic, but it was not addressed to your corps, sir? How did you

13 see it? It was not addressed to you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It was, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let him tell me.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used to receive such orders.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But go to page 1 of that document. Can we go to

18 page 1, please.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please zoom in on the right-hand

20 side in the Bosnian version.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, please.

22 Can we go to page 1 in the English as well, please.

23 Look at the addressees there, to commands of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th

24 and 6th corps. Yours is not one of them.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In front of the 2, there is a 1.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: In front of the English 2 there is a question

2 mark.

3 Can we enlarge the B/C/S version, please.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Use the magnifier.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Sorry, scroll down, please. Down. Down.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, the other way.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The other way. Thank you. Hold it there. Thank

8 you very much. We can see what we see there.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: But can you magnify -- the letter 2. Yes. Do it

10 again, please. [Microphone not activated]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. I wanted to ask you this, General Karavelic. In practice, were

14 the corps and the units below them duty-bound to implement the order?

15 A. Yes, they were.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

18 for an exhibit number for the document.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Wood.

20 MR. WOOD: There are a number of problems. Apparently with the

21 translation of this document. Your Honour the first which was pointed

22 out it doesn't appear to have been sent. It is an ambiguous to mark

23 before the 1 -- before the 2. But a larger issue is there is text that

24 appears to be scratched out in the B/C/S version and that doesn't appear

25 on the English version. Additionally there is some handwritten text at

1 the bottom of the document on the last page that also does not appear to

2 have been translated, and I would just ask that a proper translation be

3 provided before this is admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just have to see

6 what my colleague is referring to.

7 In the Bosnian version, I don't see -- all right, now I see what

8 he means. This part is scratched out. I don't quite understand what's

9 the problem with this scratched out version? Perhaps the Prosecutor may

10 enlighten me.

11 Your Honour, this is an official translation of the document. We

12 were not the ones who translated it. But I don't see what the problem

13 is.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the problem is that the two are not

15 identical. The one has writing on it which is scratched out. The other

16 one has no similar writing. There's nothing written below the corps

17 there in the English translation, which is scratched out.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Uh-huh.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it is not known why it is scratched out. I'm

20 just telling you what the Prosecutor is saying.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honour, I accept

22 that. But, secondly, the English translation has a third page also where

23 everything that was handwritten on the original version was translated.

24 Perhaps my colleague can see it now. There it is.

25 MR. WOOD: I see that now, Your Honour, yes.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your colleague can see it now.

2 Can we go back to page 1 in the English, please.

3 Now, sorry, can we just hold on that to -- can we see the last

4 page of -- of the B/C/S, please. Yes. You see both the handwritten part

5 and the translation don't show the 1st Corps. So we are told here who it

6 was sent to.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can clarify this with the

8 witness.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, let the witness clarify it. Thank you very

10 much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, do you have any idea why -- let's see if we can check

13 the Bosnian version.

14 So do you have any idea or what the meaning of this CVO et cetera

15 and then forwarded to, what does that -- that portion, what does that

16 mean? And why is the 1st Corps not mentioned here, whereas it was on the

17 first page? Can you explain that?

18 A. Absolutely. Here the CVK and the KZ that means encrypted, and

19 then below that it says forwarded to, and then the corps that received an

20 encrypted version were mentioned there so only those corps that received

21 a document in encrypted form are listed here; and as for my corps, I

22 received this in an envelope because my command is close to a command in

23 the city of Sarajevo.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. I have now forgotten

25 what I wanted at page 1, so we can go on.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Shall we go back to the first page,

2 Your Honour?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we may.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can see the first page of the

5 document again.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, I do remember what it is I wanted to say.

7 Can we scroll down the B/C/S slightly, please -- I beg your

8 pardon, scroll up. Can we do the same with the English.

9 Now, there are faint handwritten writings on the top of the

10 B/C/S, which we don't see on the top of the English. There's what looks

11 like a 5 right on top, and then a little string of numbers and then

12 something encircled.

13 Are we able to decipher that, the handwritten parts?

14 Are you able to do that, Mr. Karavelic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, the first

16 number is 31-2-03-362-4/4-5/39.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is possible too. It's

19 possible that it is 99.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And would that mean anything to you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, this is the record of

22 the document in our archives, in the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina, or, rather, in the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And what looks like a 5 circled on top,

1 would that mean anything to you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't say. It doesn't mean

3 anything.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is circled below, does that mean anything

5 to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only say that this too

7 doesn't seem to make any sense, but sometimes individuals would just put

8 their own markings on a document that have no meaning whatsoever. That's

9 my opinion.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Madam Vidovic -- sorry.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question to ask from

13 the witness.

14 Is it possible that this document was not sent to the 1st Corps,

15 because it refers to a meeting during which there were also the

16 representatives of the 1st Corps. That's what I could understand. Maybe

17 I'm wrong, but that's what I would understand from the first paragraph of

18 the document. It was a meeting, working meeting, of the representatives

19 of the government of the Republic, the Ministry of Defence of the

20 secretariat of Defence in the district of Sarajevo, and - how do you

21 say? - the Supreme Commander of the Main Staff, and the 1st Corps.

22 Therefore, this is probably the reason why it wasn't sent to the

23 1st Corps. It's an explanation, isn't it to solve this problem, to

24 understand why it was not sent to the 1st Corps.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not the practice. It does

1 not correspond to the military rules of correspond. Whether someone was

2 at the meeting or not, they would still have to receive the same because

3 this document describes the tasks and duties over a long period of time;

4 so that I had to receive this document, I'm absolutely certain of it,

5 100 percent. There's no dilemma about it.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you certain that you had to receive it, or are

7 you certain that you did receive it.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received -- I did receive it too.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. My very last question.

10 Are you able to decipher the words that are struck out in the

11 B/C/S?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it says there to the

13 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then

14 in parenthesis: For your information.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please have a

17 number for this document?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

21 number 1337.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Your Honour, could the witness be shown D942.

1 Your Honour, before the document is displayed, we will seek to

2 amend the document with -- to replace the previous document where this

3 portion was scratched out, we will provide another version with this

4 document.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this document,

7 D942, is from the Main Staff of the armed forces of the 3rd of August,

8 1993, and it's entitled: Order.

9 Could we please see the bottom of the document. Can you just

10 show it so that we can see the whole thing. Thank you. And the English

11 version as well.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do you see the date, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the reasons I asked

14 for the bottom of the document to be displayed is because there is

15 mention made in several places there at the 3rd of August, and I will ask

16 the witness to explain there.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 3rd August 1993 is also mentioned

18 in the preamble of this document, before the word "order." Plus in

19 handwriting at the bottom of the document where we see that it was sent

20 as an encrypted document, there is the date 3rd August 1993, and the hour

21 when the document was sent to the corps.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, have you seen and received this document?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. The document is short. Would you please take a look at it and

2 perhaps give your comments on it. What did it refer to?

3 A. This is one of the orders from the commander of the Main Staff --

4 the General Staff for a sort of cease-fire, and there were many of those

5 in the four years of the war, and here the -- it is ordered that the

6 subordinates, us, the corps commanders, are to strictly comply with it.

7 Q. Would you please take a look at items 5 and 7. What do they deal

8 with?

9 A. Item 5 orders that all the military units are to fully protect

10 civilian population -- the civilian population or civilians. And in item

11 6 it says that the corps commanders shall be personally responsible for

12 the consistent implementation of this order and in case of violation of

13 this order, this Staff is to be informed immediately.

14 By staff they mean the Main Staff, the General Staff.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please have a

17 number for this document.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become exhibit

21 number 1338.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now see document

24 D1068.

25 Your Honour, in the electronic version, we have a bad copy. This

1 is how we received it from the Prosecution. However, it appears that the

2 hard copy is better, and I would appreciate if the usher could show this

3 to the Prosecutor and then to the witness.

4 For the record, let me say that this is a document from the

5 morale administration of 26th June 1993.

6 Q. General, would you please look at the first page. Have I shown

7 you this document in preparation for this trial?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How would you comment what is in the document?

10 [Technical difficulty]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Question. Okay, how much time? A couple minutes?

12 Should we then take a break? I think so. Take a break and we will be

13 called.

14 --- Recess taken at 4.41 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's hope we can get on now.

17 Madam Vidovic. Sorry about that break.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. I hope, General, that you had the opportunity to read this

20 document. I noticed that during the break you had it in your hands. I'm

21 talking about the document of the staff of the Supreme Command, D1068, of

22 the 26th of June.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can just wait for it. Thank you very much.

24 There it is.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1993.

1 Q. You had the opportunity to read it. Could you tell us, what does

2 it deal with?

3 A. The document says that the General Staff received from the

4 Institute for War Crimes that had been established by that time in

5 Sarajevo that they should do something to improve the method of

6 fact-finding related to war crimes, among other things, the chief of the

7 administration for morale at the General Staff, Mr. Ivan Brigic, is

8 sending a letter with several suggestions as to what should be done. And

9 he is sending it to the commander of the staff of the Supreme Command of

10 armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you stop there, because I want to move to the

12 next page for my next question.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Next page in Bosnian and English.

14 Q. Could you just lower the page. The handwriting is not legible

15 entirely, but I hope you have managed to make it out.

16 Do you agree that this handwritten passage is related to the

17 corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What does it say?

20 A. It says that the commander of the General Staff agrees to have

21 consultations with a number of representatives of the institute to find

22 the best mode, the best way, and, furthermore, the commander says that it

23 would be then applied while keeping the existing services in commands and

24 units and that they should do that job.

25 Q. Did you, as corps commander, receive an instruction that you

1 should collect information about war crimes during combat activities, if

2 any war crimes had taken place?

3 A. Yes. I received such documents on more than one occasion.

4 Q. Were those orders issued to all corps or just the 1st Corps?

5 A. There are very few documents addressed to the 1st Corps alone. I

6 meant all the corps.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we get a number, Your Honours,

9 for this document.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

13 number 1339.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now

16 look at D373.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we wait for that document, Mr. Karavelic, I

18 would be curious to know if indeed the methods that were recommended by

19 General Delic were ever implemented in practice; do you know? The

20 instructions that he gave on the document that we have just seen on the

21 screen, were they ever complied with, in practice?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were a great

23 number of documents at the higher level of command were drafted and sent

24 down to units. Implementation is a different matter. It depended on

25 what kind of officers we had at lower levels of command, how well trained

1 and how competent they were, how qualified, and how prepared they were to

2 deal with all the orders received from the General Staff.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sure Mrs. Vidovic will pursue this matter.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, precisely.

5 Q. Still, General, I suppose you can't speak for other corps, but

6 speaking of your own, did you actually have that practice in the

7 1st Corps? If you found out, for instance, about war crimes, in the

8 1st Corps, did you collect data about that? I don't mean you personally;

9 I mean your security service.

10 A. Yes, my service did that.

11 Q. Did your service file any criminal reports in that regard?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like to

15 see document D373, which we have here. It is a document from the office

16 of the commander of the staff of supreme staff of the 26th of November,

17 1993. It is called order to comply with the Geneva Convention.

18 Q. Let me ask you, General, have you seen this document before? Did

19 you receive it then?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What is this document, briefly?

22 A. As far as I understand, the document insists on compliance with

23 the Geneva Convention in treatment of civilian population and prisoners.

24 Q. So you did receive this document. When you received this

25 document, did it remain in your drawer or did you send it down?

1 A. Not a single document received from the General Staff remains

2 in -- on my desk. The commander who received it adds to it, whatever he

3 sees fit, and then sends it down to commanders of divisions, brigades,

4 battalion, et cetera.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have an

6 Exhibit number for this.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know -- I don't know who to put my

8 question to you. Maybe to -- since -- okay, I put it directly to the

9 witness directly then.

10 Mr. Karavelic, what prompted this letter; do you know?

11 My question is: What prompted the ICRC to -- to address itself

12 to the ABiH and ask for a report on prisoners of war?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says in the first part of

14 this document what prompted it, the first three lines.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you explain, General?

17 A. We have received from the International Committee of the Red

18 Cross a report about the employment of prisoners of war for works

19 conducted in conditions hazardous for their lives.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, so, I assume that there has been an incident

21 in which the ICRC has come across prisoners of war who have been used in

22 dangerous work, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. And that was

23 what my question was about: What was that incident?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you that, not now.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

4 number 1340.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Could the witness please look at D977.

9 For the record, this is a document from the staff of the Supreme

10 Command dated 27th December 1994. The title is: Tasks related to

11 command and control.

12 Do you see, General, in the right top corner, to whom it was

13 sent?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Did you see this document before?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you receive it during the war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please look at item 6 on this page.

20 The English version should be shown on page 2 where item 6 is.

21 General, let me ask you this: What does this document relate to?

22 A. This document relates to the tasks issued by the General Staff

23 solely in the domain of control and command, over the army of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at page

1 5 of this document, pages 6 and 7 in English. Page 5 in Bosnian, and

2 page 6 and 7 in English.

3 Q. Witness, could you please look at items 6 through 13.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know how I'll deal with it.

5 When the Judges finish reading page 6, we should move to page 7 in

6 English.

7 Q. Witness, could you please comment, especially on item 6. It

8 says:

9 "Do not keep any documentation on war crimes in units; send it

10 all to the military security administration, to the specialised section

11 for this type of work, in cooperation with the MUP engage military police

12 units and ensure full control of free territory."

13 "Ensure the highest quality and most comprehensive possible work

14 of SVB members with the goal of detecting all forms of criminal

15 activities and their perpetrators in the army of BH through the

16 implementation of the Trebevic operation and other regular activities of

17 SVB and military police members."

18 What I want to ask you is this: We saw earlier a document

19 ordering compliance with Geneva Conventions. How would you qualify this

20 document? What does it deal with in point 6 through 13?

21 A. It follows up on the previous document related to

22 Geneva Conventions. It Stipulates that every officer in the army of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina from the highest to the lowest level in the event

24 he learns of a war crime that was perpetrated or any other serious

25 violation of discipline.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have an Exhibit number for

3 this document, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document becomes Exhibit number

7 1341.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like the witness now to

11 see document D988.

12 While we're waiting for the document --

13 Q. General, can I ask you this: Earlier in your evidence you said

14 there were few trained and professional officers, and you said certain

15 efforts were made to improve that situation from mid-1993 until the end

16 of the war.

17 Tell me, what did this cover? What kind of efforts were these?

18 A. Well, the General Staff issued various orders for that purpose,

19 plus it sent its best and most qualified officers to conduct training in

20 lower units of the corps and it also carried out the general training for

21 soldiers and officers.

22 Q. We have here an order from 1995. I would like to move to page 2,

23 para 1. Page 2 in Bosnian and English.

24 Could you look at para 1 and then 3 and 4. And tell us when you

25 finish reading what this document is about. But, first of all, did you

1 receive it at the time?

2 A. Yes. Yes, of course. A truce, a cease-fire must have been

3 signed prior to this document, and the commander appears to be using that

4 time to devote maximum attention to training, training of the commands,

5 officers, units, and soldiers.

6 Q. Was this something exceptional that you received such an order?

7 A. No, it wasn't.

8 Q. What does that mean?

9 A. There were similar orders before.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have an Exhibit number,

11 please, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

15 number 1342.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show witness D990

19 next, please.

20 This will another illegible version in e-court. Therefore, I

21 would kindly ask the usher will show this hard copy to our learned

22 friends from the Prosecution and then to the witness. This version seems

23 to be far more legible.

24 For the record, it is a document of the cabinet of the commander

25 of the General Staff. It is it an order.

1 Q. General, please have a look at item 1.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we able to determine - sorry, Madam Vidovic -

3 from the document before the witness the year of the date of this

4 document?

5 Are you able to help us, Mr. Karavelic.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Must be 1995.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Must be, yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see what is typed, but I

9 recognise the date in handwriting. It says: Kakanj, the 26th of

10 February, but I am not certain I can tell you what the year is.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can go to

12 page 2 of the document and then we'll return to the first page.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But there is the heading, or the

14 header. It says the 6th of February, 1995.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, do you see it somewhere? Okay.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. General --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] you can see another date here, Your

19 Honours, from 1995, it seems.

20 Can we now please go back to page 1?

21 Q. General, please focus your attention on item 1 where it says that

22 it -- what is ordered is to plan, organise a carry-out training with

23 commanders and Chiefs of Staff.

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

1 Q. Was training conducted all the way up to the level corps

2 commanders and Chiefs of Staff of corps in 1995, if you know?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

5 for an Exhibit number.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

9 number 1343.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to show D987

12 to the witness next.

13 For the record, it is an document of the General Staff of the

14 armed forces of the 1st of February, 1995. The title is: Order for

15 training courses for the SVB and VP.

16 Q. General, have you seen this document before? Did you receive it

17 during the war?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Please comment upon it.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the entire

21 page visible on the screen. Thank you.

22 A. The document is an order of the General Staff concerning training

23 of officers and soldiers of the military security service and the

24 military police by conducting courses in Sarajevo that were supposed to

25 last for a month. But that was not the only occasion. Such training was

1 organised on several occasions during the war.

2 Q. What do you mean exactly?

3 A. Certain type of training was organised for this type of cadre.

4 Q. What cadre?

5 A. The military security service and the military police.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

8 for an Exhibit number.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

12 number 1344.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

14 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

16 go to D1067 next.

17 For the record and while we're waiting for the document, it is a

18 document of the morale administration of the General Staff of the 19th of

19 September, 1995.

20 Q. General, are you familiar with this document?

21 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.

22 Q. Please comment, the first paragraph of the document.

23 A. The General Staff is forwarding to all subordinate units a

24 document of the president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina, i.e., of the Supreme Command, concerning breaches of the

1 Geneva Conventions.

2 Q. There is a sentence in the document. What is stated is that in

3 some previous decisions and documents the soldiers were acquainted with

4 the provisions of the Geneva Conventions. The soldiers being the

5 soldiers of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 My question to you is: Were the soldiers of the army of B&H

7 through the corps acquaint the with the regulations contained in the

8 Geneva Conventions?

9 A. As I said, it took place on several occasions.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have

11 an Exhibit number.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1345, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. General, a few questions on a different topic.

18 As the 1st Corps commander, did you ever come across a document

19 termed directive?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Please explain to us what directives are, so as to make sure that

22 we are on the same page.

23 A. A directive is a type of planning document issued by the highest

24 commands. In our case specifically, the General Staff of the army of the

25 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina issued those based on the political

1 guidelines set out by the Supreme Command. It is a general document

2 providing guidelines for any given year, about the activities of

3 subordinate units.

4 Q. You mentioned the General Staff and the corps. Is that the same

5 level of command?

6 A. The General Staff is the highest command level within the army of

7 the RBiH it is the strategic command. The corps are one step down in

8 terms of command. Those are operational commands an operational tactical

9 units.

10 Q. Thank you. Say you received a directive. What follows within

11 the corps?

12 A. When a corps commander at the beginning of a year, or towards the

13 end of the previous year, for the next year, receives a directive the

14 first thing he needs to do is to summon his command; that is the inner

15 circle of his officers and assistants, to go through the document in

16 detail, since it contains the guidelines for the entire next year.

17 Once they have studied it in detail, for the rest of the year the

18 corps command independently approaches the planning, execution and

19 carrying out of tasks that it had been assigned by that -- or in that

20 directive.

21 Q. In principle, who decides on the chose of place, time, means, and

22 units for combat activities, in terms of such planning?

23 A. The corps commander and his subordinate commanders.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what was the focal task of the

25 1st Corps for 1995; your corps, that is?

1 A. In terms of my corps, our focal assignment in 1995, as in the

2 years before, was to defend the town of Sarajevo through a planned

3 offensive in order to lift the siege that had been imposed on Sarajevo.

4 Q. In terms of that focal task in 1995, what was the role of the

5 General Staff, if any?

6 A. First and foremost, I have to say that the planned operation to

7 lift the siege of Sarajevo in June 1995, was the operation that was

8 prepared and organised as well as lead by the General Staff for the first

9 time. It played an important role and the tasks before them were very

10 complex.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to show D996 to the

13 witness.

14 For the record, it is a document of the General Staff of the

15 armed forces dated the 30th of May, 1995. The title is: Addendum to

16 the -- army General Staff order for attack, OP number 1.

17 General Karavelic, have you seen this document before.

18 A. I have.

19 Q. Did you receive it during the war?

20 A. Most likely -- actually, definitely.

21 Q. Let us go to page 2 of the document now.

22 Please have a look at the part beginning with the corps

23 commanders will most strictly prohibit all members of the commands and

24 units from ...

25 But before that, General, I wanted to ask you what operation did

1 that document of the 30th of May refer to?

2 A. It referred to the T operation that had been prepared, this being

3 the lifting of the siege of Sarajevo.

4 Q. Do you remember how long the preparations for the operation took?

5 A. The preparation lasted up to one and a half months.

6 Q. Do you recall the time when the lifting of the siege operation

7 was executed?

8 A. It began on the 15th of June, 1995, and it ended on the 1st of

9 August, 1995. It began on the 15th of June, 1995. It was stopped

10 towards the end of July or early August, 1995.

11 Q. Thank you, General. To go back to the document now. Have a look

12 at this part of the order beginning with: "The corps commanders."

13 What does it refer to?

14 A. It refers to providing guidelines and instructions, in terms of

15 orders underpinning the importance of proper conduct when treating,

16 prisoner, POWs and that no violence against life and limb should be

17 occurring and especially all forms of mutilation, killing, cruel

18 behaviour, torture, hostage taking, and so on and so forth.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

21 for an Exhibit number.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

23 please be given an exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

25 number 1346.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, do you remember the role of General Delic in this

4 operation, if any?

5 A. When I gave you the answer a few moments ago and mentioned what

6 the role of the General Staff was, that very fact, because he was at the

7 head of the General Staff at the time, his most important role and

8 responsibility, his was the greatest role and responsibility for the

9 success of that operation.

10 Q. Tell us who commanded that action, if anyone?

11 A. The commander of the General Staff, General Rasim Delic.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now see

14 document D1012.

15 For the record, let me say that is a document from the General

16 Staff from the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina of 2nd

17 August, 1995, entitled further work of IKM, order and then signed by

18 Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

19 Now I would like to you take a look at this document, it is a

20 short document and mention is made of the General Staff IKM Proskok.

21 Would you please explain whether -- what was the role of this post, this

22 IKM, if any, this Proskok. What does that stand for?

23 A. In view of fact that on this axis and on the front line of the

24 entire operation a certain success was accomplished in combat. In order

25 to further that success, the commander of the General Staff decided to

1 form -- to establish a forward command post, his own forward command

2 post, precisely in the spot where the brunt of my forces were to advance.

3 This place was called Proskok.

4 Q. Let me just ask you General, however was Proskok from Sarajevo?

5 A. It is up to 25 kilometres away from Sarajevo.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we assign a

8 number to this document.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1347, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness

15 please see Exhibit 494.

16 For the record, this is a document from the General Staff of the

17 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina of 17 July 1995. The document is

18 entitled: The carrying out of active combat duties, order.

19 General, would you please take a look at this document.

20 Could we scroll the English version down a bit so that we can see

21 it. Thank you. And now could we see the second page of the English

22 version.

23 Q. General, this -- in this document mention is made of support and

24 relief of the front line around Zepa on the 17th of July, 1995. In your

25 testimony yesterday you said that Zepa was in your area of

1 responsibility. Did I understand you correctly?

2 A. Yes it was for a while. But at this time it wasn't.

3 Q. Thank you. Did you ever receive this document?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. All right. Did you hear of combat operations in Vozuca [Realtime

6 transcript read in error "Vogosca"] in July 1995?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. From what you know, is this order in any way related to those

9 combat operations at Vozuca in July 1995?

10 A. No. According -- in my view, this has nothing to do with that.

11 This order had to do with activating combat operations in order to

12 relieve the enclaves.

13 MR. WOOD: Yes, Mr. President. I heard one thing and I saw

14 another thing on the transcript that is the name of the place at 63 line

15 10. I thought I heard ...

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: My page is numbered 18.

17 MR. WOOD: Okay. Same page, line 10, Your Honour. I just want

18 to make sure that the record is clear. Is he speaking of Vogosca, which

19 what is reflected in the transcript.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I saw that too at line 14 now it says Vozuca. So

21 it was supposed to be Vozuca.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, what did you talk about, Vogosca or Vozuca?

24 A. Vozuca.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. Would you -- could you please spell that?

1 A. V-o-z-u-c-a.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document may be

4 removed, I think.

5 Q. General have you completed your answer at the moment when --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we move it. What was operation T, by

7 the way, is it Trebevic, or what is it?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Operation T was the operation to

9 lift the blockade of Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like the

12 witness to be shown two documents, one after another. The first one is

13 D1004, and then following that, D851. I would like to explain that by

14 error we entered into the system a document that consists of an order and

15 an annex to the attachment. We entered it as under two different numbers

16 but judging by ERN numbers as we received them from the Prosecutor I can

17 see that it is the same document and its annex.

18 And so I will ask to -- for these documents to be assigned one

19 number, one exhibit number.

20 Now could the witness please see document D1004. D1004.

21 I apologise --

22 Q. Witness, this is the document. And now I would like to show you

23 another document, but before that, would you just look at the date of

24 this document. It is 16 July 1995. And let's take a look at the last

25 sentence.

1 Do you go that it says -- please find attached the telegram of

2 the president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina.

4 First of all, I'd like to ask you this. You said that you did

5 receive this document. Do you recall a telegram of that nature?

6 A. Yes, I think I do.

7 Q. All right.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now see D851,

9 and then I will request that both this and the next document be assigned

10 one and the same number.

11 Q. Witness, will you please take a look at this document. Do you

12 agree that it bears the date 16 July 1995, the same date as the document

13 of a few minutes ago.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you please read this document to see what it's about and

16 then tell us what it deals with and whether you have ever seen this

17 document before?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. What is it about?

20 A. This relates to the president's letter stating how and in what

21 manner to prevent the fall of the enclaves and how and in what manner to

22 gain air support from international forces, the forces against the enemy

23 around the enclaves.

24 Q. Do you remember, was this document attached to the document you

25 have just seen a few minutes ago?

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would ask that

4 these two documents, D1044 and D851 be assigned one exhibit number.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: D1004 and D851 are admitted into evidence. May

6 they please be given one exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Both documents will become Exhibit number 1348.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General Karavelic, I want to ask you something -- about something

11 else now. You said that in August 1995 you were appointed to a duty in

12 the General Staff. Do you remember saying this?

13 A. Yes. I was appointed the chief of the operations administration.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now see

16 document D111 -- 1017.

17 This is an order dated 19 August 1995.

18 Q. General, is this the order you just said that you were appointed

19 to a new duty?

20 A. Yes, for the chief of operations administration.

21 Q. Yes. Is this the order whereby you were appointed?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have an

24 Exhibit number for this document.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1349, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General, you said that this was an administration for operations

6 and planning of the General Staff. What was the primary task of this

7 administration as far as the combat operations are concerned?

8 A. Well, the name itself says. Our job was to plan combat

9 operations.

10 Q. Thank you. We see that you were appointed to this position on

11 the 19th of August. Did the -- was the General Staff planning combat

12 operations for Vozuca in September 1995, as far as you know?

13 A. As far as I know, it wasn't.

14 Q. Were you personally planning any combat operations for Vozuca for

15 September 1995?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Now I would like us to go back to Sarajevo, the end

18 of August.

19 Could you tell us, what was the situation like in Sarajevo at the

20 end of August 1995. Was it improving or getting worse, exacerbating?

21 A. On the contrary, from day to day it was getting worse and worse.

22 The objective of this operation to lift the blockade of Sarajevo was to

23 lift the siege of Sarajevo and make life easier for its citizens.

24 Because we were not successful in this operation, the aggressor's forces,

25 after this, probably out of revenge, even more intensively and from day

1 to day shelled the city from all types of weapons so that life was very

2 difficult. In other words, it was unbearable.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now see

5 document D1018. D1018.

6 For the record, let me say that this is an article from the

7 daily -- from the daily Oslobodjenje of 29 August 1995.

8 Q. General, I will ask you the following. You see here that the

9 title is: Chetnik massacre in Sarajevo 35 killed, 90 wounded. Tell me

10 briefly what this is about?

11 A. This was a mortar shell that was fired, a shell of

12 120-millimeter, by the aggressor. It was fired on the central

13 marketplace in the city of Sarajevo called Markale where such a big

14 number of people were killed, civilians.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... I thought I

17 heard the interpretation taking about a weapon that was used in the

18 shelling. I don't see the translation of that -- the transcript of that.

19 Before it was fired on the central market there was something said about

20 a weapon that was used.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General, I think it would be best for you to repeat your answer.

23 A. As part of very fierce shelling by the aggressor of the city, one

24 mortar grenade of 120-millimetre --

25 THE INTERPRETER: One mortar shell, interpreter's correction.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was fired on the central

2 marketplace called Markale and on this occasion 35 civilians were killed

3 and 90 were wounded.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In this regard, I would like to ask you this. Were international

6 military forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time?

7 A. Yes, of course.

8 Q. What was the reactions of those international forces to this type

9 of massacre in Sarajevo, if you remember?

10 A. There were many massacres of this nature in Sarajevo during the

11 four years of its blockade and this was just the final straw. The

12 international forces reacted by air bombings, air attacks.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please have

15 an Exhibit number for this.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we get an exhibit number.

17 Air attacks on?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Aerial attacks on aggressor forces.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Which?

21 A. Those around Sarajevo and dispersed over other buildings and

22 installations throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Q. Could you tell us which forces of the aggressor?

24 A. The army of Republika Srpska, together with the VJ, the army of

25 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1350.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. At that time --

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think for the

9 purpose of using two documents that I received on the condition that I

10 use them in private session, and I have to mention certain international

11 organisations, I believe it would be better to move into private session

12 now.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

14 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And will you please put the question again in open

18 session, Madam Vidovic.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General Karavelic, I asked you if you remember what the General

23 Staff was busy with in August, September, 1995?

24 A. In view of the extremely difficult situation throughout Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina, and especially due to the threat that another enclave

1 called Bihac could fall, I recall very vividly that the General Staff was

2 engaged, as usual, in the planning and conducting of combat throughout

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, whereas the commander of the General Staff

4 travelled to a number of third countries on diplomatic missions using

5 diplomacy to fight for the survival of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Do you remember that?

7 A. I remember that because I myself travelled with General Delic

8 once in end August to Iran, the People's Republic of Iran.

9 Q. How long were you there, and how long did General Delic stay?

10 A. I stayed up to ten days, and General Delic was there only two

11 days, because he had to go on to visit the Republic of Turkey.

12 Q. Do you remember if there was a time when you saw General Delic

13 again?

14 A. When I returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina, I believe

15 General Delic was not there. He had gone on to another visit, to Kuala

16 Lumpur, to Malaysia, to the council of Islamic countries, a conference on

17 assistance to Bosnia and Herzegovina; and I believe the next time we saw

18 each other was in the Republic of Croatia.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when that was, and then we'll finish

20 for tonight.

21 A. I don't remember the date, but it was in September.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is a

23 good time for me to conclude for today. I have only a few questions left

24 for tomorrow, no more than ten minute, I believe.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

1 Court adjourned, and we'll start again tomorrow at quarter past

2 2.00 in the same court.

3 Court adjourned.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of

6 March, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.

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