Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8163

1 Tuesday, 8 April 2008.

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, could we please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon

9 everybody in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have the appearances for the day,

12 starting with the Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

14 Honours to my learned colleagues from the Defence and everyone in and

15 around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution assisted by my

16 case manager, Alma Imamovic-Ivanov.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much and for the Defence.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, good

19 afternoon to my colleagues from the OTP. To everyone in and around the

20 courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic with Nicholas Robson representing

21 General Rasim Delic with legal assistant Lejla Gluhic.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8164

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8165

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Good afternoon to you sir.

8 And I'm sorry to have kept you waiting and standing. May you please make

9 the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examination by Ms. Vidovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dedovic, good afternoon.

20 A. Good afternoon to you.

21 Q. Before I move to my questions, I would like to ask you to speak

22 as slowly as possible and to leave a pause between my question and your

23 answer because in that way, we will have a complete transcript and it

24 will reflect everything that we are saying here.

25 A. Yes.

Page 8166

1 Q. You are aware that what you are saying is being interpreted and

2 also my question and your answer should not overlap.

3 A. All right.

4 Q. I would like to ask you for your full name for the transcript.

5 A. I am Ismet Dedovic.

6 Q. When and where were you born?

7 A. I was born in Sarajevo on the 28th of June, 1965.

8 Q. And where do you live?

9 A. I live in Sarajevo, in Dervis Numic Street, number 1.

10 Q. And which school did you complete?

11 A. I completed the technical engineering school.

12 Q. Mr. Dedovic, where were you when the war broke out?

13 A. I was in Sarajevo.

14 Q. Did you join any army?

15 A. Yes, at the beginning of the war, I joined the Territorial

16 Defence.

17 Q. Yes, it will be better if you move closer to the microphone.

18 At any point, did you become a member of the Main Staff of the

19 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes. This was on the 12th of June, 1993.

21 Q. And which duties were you performing?

22 A. I was an escort of General Delic.

23 Q. Who decided to appoint you?

24 A. The decision on my appointment was made by the military security

25 administration.

Page 8167

1 Q. So did I understand you correctly, that you were part of

2 General Rasim Delic's cabinet?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And where was General Delic's office when you began to work there

5 in June 1993?

6 A. General Delic's office was in the building off the directorate of

7 the construction company.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the

9 company.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And where is that?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter did not catch the name of the

13 company, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the Vranica Construction

16 Company.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you. Can you also speak up a little bit.

19 A. Yes, very well.

20 Q. And where was the Vranica head office?

21 A. The Vranica head office was in Sarajevo, in the Centar

22 municipality, centre municipality.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember where the offices of the operation

24 centre of the Main Staff were at that time?

25 A. Yes. The premises of the Main Staff operations office was in the

Page 8168

1 public accounting services building, and it's known as the building near

2 Vjecna Vatra, the eternal fire.

3 Q. Let's just clarify because it's not quite clearly entered in the

4 transcript. Can you please repeat? I asked you about the operations

5 centre of the Main Staff?

6 A. Yes, the operation centre of the Main Staff was in the building

7 of the public accounting office which was known as the building near the

8 Vjecna Vatra.

9 Q. Thank you very much. How far was the office from this place

10 where the operation centre was. Do you recall that?

11 A. It was some 4 to 500 metres from the commander's office.

12 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you to something about the

13 scope of your work.

14 You told us that you were appointed as escort of the Main Staff

15 commander. How long did you work as General Delic's escort. Do you

16 remember?

17 A. Yes, I do, of course. How can I not? I worked at that post

18 throughout the whole war and then after the war until the General retired

19 except for a certain period when I went for military training.

20 Q. Thank you. In other words, you were an escort of General Delic

21 from the point in time that he became the Main Staff commander until the

22 end of the war. Is this correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Can you please explain to us how much time when you were doing

25 this job did you actually spend with him?

Page 8169

1 A. Well, the work is of such a nature that I was practically with

2 him for 24 hours a day. I was with him all the time expect for the time

3 when the General was sleeping, but even then I was immediately close to

4 him. I was in the next room.

5 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us exactly what your duties

6 were, what did you do?

7 A. My duty was to provide security for the commander when he was in

8 certain places or when he was moving.

9 Q. Can you please explain what you mean when you say "to provide

10 security for the commander in a certain location.

11 A. This means that one would know which unit was securing the

12 facility where the commander was staying, how many soldiers there are,

13 what the shifts are. My own duty was to be in front of the office and

14 to -- well, all the visits to the commander were announced, so I knew

15 about each single visit.

16 Q. And what does it mean to secure the commander while he was

17 moving?

18 A. This meant that we would announce that the commander was about to

19 go somewhere for a visit to a unit or to a different location, so this

20 would be movement with vehicles, helicopters, or walking. I was his

21 private -- on his private security detail.

22 Q. Did you have any duties in relation to the commander's visits to

23 specific locations?

24 A. Yes. I would announce that the commander would be coming to

25 specific places or facilities.

Page 8170

1 Q. Whom did you inform about that?

2 A. Well, the corps commander, if he was visiting the corps

3 commander.

4 Q. All right. I will come back to this.

5 I just want to ask you this: Did you have information about the

6 communications facilities used by the commander if he used any?

7 A. Well, our communications devices were quite poor. They were just

8 normal radio sets, radio stations which we couldn't even use properly.

9 Q. Why?

10 A. Because the devices of the former JNA were exceptionally powerful

11 so they would cover us electronically. They would override us so we were

12 not able to establish communications.

13 Q. And the B and H army at that time, did they have just devices?

14 A. No. The quality of our devices was quite poor. The army of the

15 Republika Srpska actually took over all the equipment of the former army,

16 so they had the latest technology and we only actually had some left

17 overs.

18 Q. All right. Are we talking about -- you mentioned announcing

19 visits when you would be going out in the field. Did the commander tour

20 units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21 A. Yes. General Delic spent a lot of time touring the armija units.

22 Q. Do you recall how many units there were in the B and H army at

23 the brigade level, and I'm talking about the period from mid-1993 until

24 the end of the war. Do you have an idea on average how many such units

25 there were?

Page 8171

1 A. There were about 100 brigades, on average, and also there were

2 about 500 battalion-rank units.

3 Q. Very well. Can you please tell us who choose the units, if

4 anyone did, that the General would visit. How was this process

5 conducted?

6 A. Well, the process was that the corps commander would decide which

7 unit would be presented to General Delic, and if it wasn't the corps

8 commander it was his deputy or his chief. Commander Delic did not decide

9 which unit he would visit. It was a decision made by the corps command.

10 Q. Thank you. I would like to move to a different topic now. I

11 would like to talk to you about some events from June and July 1993.

12 You told us that you were appointed as escort of General Delic on

13 the 12th of June, 1993. I would like you to describe for us the

14 situation in the General Staff or the Main Staff, the way you saw it when

15 you came to take up your duties as escort of General Delic?

16 A. The situation at the Supreme Command staff was very unfavorable

17 for General Delic. There was a lot of distrust directed at him. His

18 closest associates felt like that. At that time he was their superior

19 officer so at any point they were trying to obstruct the General's work.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to look at

22 Exhibit 216 now, please. This is a document under seal, so can we please

23 move into closed session.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 8172











11 Pages 8172-8173 redacted. Private session.















Page 8174

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 8175

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Dedovic, a moment ago you mentioned the Sarajevo commanders

3 who, you said, did not support General Delic. Can you tell us briefly,

4 please, what you had in mind when you said that?

5 A. They formally recognised him as commander but did not carry out

6 his orders. I was referring to the members of the 9th and 10th Mountain

7 Brigades.

8 Q. What was their relationship vis-a-vis the commander of the

9 1st Corps, if you know?

10 A. Well, in principle, they did not respect the commander of the

11 1st Corps or the commander of the staff. They did not feel obliged

12 toward them in any way, and did not have any respect for them.

13 Q. You mentioned these commanders who were local commanders from

14 Sarajevo.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you have occasion to see the situation, what it was like when

17 it came to the other BH army units in that period of time just before you

18 took up your duties in the office and afterwards?

19 A. Yes, I had occasion to see that. The units of were highly

20 disorganised. The commanders were local commanders. Every street had

21 its own commander. The command and control system had not been

22 established among these units, and this made it possible for the

23 commanders to act willfully and not have to respond to the -- their

24 superior command.

25 Q. Were there instances of crime in and around Sarajevo? Do you

Page 8176

1 know anything about that?

2 A. Yes. The highest presence of crime in Sarajevo was that of the

3 black market, smuggling.

4 Q. On the issue of crime, to your knowledge were certain activities

5 taken after the -- General Delic took up his duties? What was happening?

6 A. Upon taking up his duties, the General took certain measures

7 which meant that at once strong cooperation was developed with

8 Mr. Bakir Alispahic, the minister of the interior. They met on a daily

9 basis and worked a great deal toward combatting the crime.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt a little bit. When you say

11 the crime was rife in Sarajevo with respect to smuggling, are you talking

12 of amongst the general public or within the army?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had to do both with the civilian

14 and military structures. Everyone was smuggling throughout the town.

15 Everyone was involved in that.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Including members of the army?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Some members of the army, not

18 the army as a whole.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Can you please repeat one name for us now. In your earlier

22 answer you explained that the General establishes cooperation with the

23 minister. Can you please slowly and clearly repeat his name? Can you

24 spell it out, please.

25 A. The minister concerned was the minister of the interior, Bakir,

Page 8177

1 B-a-k-i-r, Alispahic, A-l-i-s-p-a-h-i-c.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

4 video 26, please.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Dedovic, you heard the comment made in this video-clip. If

8 the minister of the interior or the Commander Rasim Delic issue an order,

9 everyone has to abide by it. We have an example out from the field where

10 Commander Delic signed a piece of paper of his. He say, well this is all

11 in vain until my superior officer signs. This nobody will consider it

12 seriously do you have a comment to make on this?

13 A. Yes. What we just saw precisely reflects the situation as it was

14 in the field. There were brigade commanders acting willfully, not

15 respecting the commander of the 1st Corps, the minister of the interior,

16 the commander of the staff of the Supreme Command.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the minister of the

19 interior, Bakir Alispahic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I omitted

21 to clarify that.

22 Q. I wanted to ask you this. The speaker said Fikret is the boss on

23 that side of the Igman mount and on this side, Hadzija is the boss.

24 First of all can you tell what you say this means, the other side

25 or the slope of Igman mountain, and Hadzija, who are these people?

Page 8178

1 A. Yes, this is Tadic, the commander of the 4th Motorised Brigade,

2 Fikret Prevljak; and Hadzija is Ismet Hadzic, who was the commander of

3 the 5th Motorised Brigade; and they were the ones who practically had a

4 say as to who could come into the town or leave it. They were the ones

5 exercising control over there.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remind you to stop after a while after

7 hearing the question to allow the interpreters. You overlap and the

8 interpreter is moving very fast to catch up with you. I think she missed

9 a few things.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this video-clip be

12 assigned an exhibit number, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Video 26 is admitted into evidence. May it please

14 be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the video becomes exhibit 1356.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Dedovic, you described some aspects of the situation in

20 Sarajevo, and the problems encountered in the command system. Can you

21 now explain to us very briefly what the military situation around

22 Sarajevo was in June of 1993 if you remember?

23 A. Yes, I do. And that was the most difficult part of 1993, because

24 in early June the Serb forces launched powerful offensive in the

25 direction of the town of Gorazde. They surrounded Gorazde which caused

Page 8179

1 the exodus of the Drina valley population, people fleeing in large

2 numbers. There were many refugees. However, the Serb forces did not

3 stop there. They advanced toward yet smaller town of Trnovo, but they

4 did not stop there either. They approached the Jahorina villages and

5 the --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Another location the witness mentioned, the

7 interpreter didn't catch.

8 A. There was fierce fighting around the town. Everyday artillery

9 fire incriminate fire on the towns, fire opened upon all the

10 intersections. The living conditions in the town were very poor. There

11 was no running water, electricity, food, or medicines. Everything was in

12 short supply.

13 Q. Witness, just for the transcript we want to clarify something.

14 You mentioned a plateau. Can you please tell us the name of the plateau?

15 A. The Bjelasnica-Treskavica plateau. That includes the mountains

16 of Treskavica and Bjelasnica.

17 Q. Can you please spell the name the plateau?

18 A. The Bjelasnica-Treskavica plateau, B-J-E-L-A-S-N-I-C-A

19 T-R-E-S-K-A-V-I-C-A.

20 Q. Can you please tell us where this plateau is?

21 A. It is very close to Sarajevo. It's known as the Olympic

22 mountains.

23 Q. So this situation and these events relating to Igman, did you

24 notice or not any activities in the Main Staff?

25 A. Yes, there was a lot of activity for the commander, especially

Page 8180

1 there were meetings with the 1st Corps commander to resolve the

2 situations that were arising. There was a large number of meetings with

3 representatives of the international forces with the UN commander of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina forces. I think that the General's name was

5 Briquemont. And there were daily activities plus the internal problems

6 within the staff itself.

7 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you this now. You said that you

8 were always in General Delic's escort. At that time did you try to leave

9 in July 1993. Did you try to get out of Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes, we tried to get out of Sarajevo but that was practically

11 impossible then because it was the strongest enemy offensive at that time

12 on Sarajevo and the wider Sarajevo area. We tried to get out. We stayed

13 outside for a couple of hours, and then we returned to Sarajevo. The

14 commander wanted to see for himself what the situation was.

15 Q. Why did you not manage to get out then?

16 A. Because of strong enemy fire, because the way out of Sarajevo

17 through Igman was constantly under the control of -- or tank fire from

18 the direction of Gavrica Brdo, antiaircraft guns from the direction of

19 the forestry school, they held that sector of the Igman road and they

20 opened fire, so it was impossible to get out of Sarajevo. The only way

21 to get out would be at night when the lights were turned off using the

22 Macadam forest road. But it was still practically impossible.

23 Q. Very well. I would like to ask you this now. When did you

24 actually manage or did you at any point succeed to reach free territory

25 and when, if you can recall this?

Page 8181

1 A. Yes, the first time we left was towards the end of August 1993.

2 And that is when we went to Zenica.

3 Q. Can you briefly describe how this crossing of the Igman mountain

4 was like?

5 A. Well, it was just like I described it earlier. It was very

6 amazing thing to get out of Sarajevo without lights. It was like playing

7 Russian roulette. If you passed, you passed, and if you couldn't pass,

8 it meant you were killed.

9 Q. So you got out sometime in late August 1993. Can you please tell

10 me what was your experience of the situation in the field in Zenica, for

11 example, in August 1993, how did you see that?

12 A. The situation was the same or similar to the one in Sarajevo.

13 The communications were not functioning well with the Supreme Command

14 staff. The units were not linked up. Personnel was inadequate at

15 command posts meaning that people who were leading those units were not

16 properly trained in order to be up to the task.

17 Q. And how did you find all of this out?

18 A. During lunch, during a visit to the command of the 3rd Corps,

19 General Enver Hadzihasanovic, I know that General Hadzihasanovic

20 complained to Commander Delic that they didn't have enough materiel,

21 equipment, ammunition, food, and General Delic replied that the situation

22 was the same there all units.

23 Q. All right. Did you actually know that there was HVO in the

24 Central Bosnia sector at that time. Did you know that?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 8182

1 Q. And what was the situation vis-a-vis the HVO? What were

2 relations like the HVO like at that time. Do you remember?

3 A. At that time the conflict escalated between members of the HVO

4 and members of the B and H army around Zepce, Vakuf, Vitez, Kiseljak, and

5 Mostar, these were all the actual areas that they held.

6 Q. And were new a position to talk to General Delic about the events

7 at that time?

8 A. During the driving, the commander would talk about it, so I

9 actually learned what was going on.

10 Q. I'm going to go back to this. I would just like to ask you to

11 repeat again the names of the towns where the clashes broke out with the

12 HVO at that time. Can you please speak slowly and clearly.

13 A. There were clashes in -- there was an exchange of fire and the

14 situation escalated in the areas held by members of the HVO, and this was

15 in Zepce, Gornji Vakuf, --

16 Q. Can you please say Zepce again?

17 A. Z-E-P-C-E, Zepce; Gornji Vakuf, Prozor, Vitez, Kiseljak, Mostar.

18 Q. Thank you. So we have all of this on the transcript now.

19 I interpreted you with my request to repeat the names, so you

20 said in response to my question, if you had talked about some events with

21 General Delic and you said that you did have an opportunity to hear about

22 the events while talking with him.

23 A. Yes, these were more comments by the commander than a

24 conversation.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I would just like now to go back to some

Page 8183

1 events in Sarajevo very briefly. You talked about insubordinate

2 commanders.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to show the

4 witness for a moment Exhibit 217, please.

5 Your Honours, before the document is shown on the monitor, I just

6 wanted to say that the Bosnian version is not very legible the way it's

7 been scanned, so we have prepared the document. Before we show it to the

8 witness, I would just like to show it to my colleagues from the

9 Prosecution.

10 For the transcript, this is a criminal report of the Security

11 Administration from the 29th of October, 1993.

12 Q. Witness, can you please look at page 5 of the Bosnian version.

13 And this is page 3 of the English version. Page 3 of the English

14 version.

15 Mr. Dedovic, You mentioned insubordinate commanders and we have a

16 description here. Can you please look at this part on page 5 which says

17 on the 2nd and 3rd of July, 1993, as members of the 10th Mountain Brigade

18 of the 1st Corps of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 and the 9th Motorised Brigade participated in the armed attacks on the

20 buildings and members of the public security service Stari Grad centre

21 Sarajevo?

22 You were a member of the Supreme Command so does this text

23 reflect the actual situation?

24 A. Yes, the document does reflect the situation as it was in the

25 town.

Page 8184

1 Q. Is it true that on that day you worked at the Supreme Command

2 Staff this was the night between the 2nd and 3rd of July. Was anything

3 attacked in the Supreme Command?

4 A. Yes, the operation centre of the Supreme Command Staff was

5 attacked.

6 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you this now. Did you know the

7 son of General Delic, Admir Delic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please look at page 7 of the document now which is five

10 of the English version, page 5 of the English version?

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we turn the page, could we have elicited

12 from the witness who attacked the Supreme Command Staff.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Supreme Command staff or,

14 rather, the operation centre was attacked by members of the 9th and 10th

15 Mountain Brigade.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So can you please look at halfway of the paragraph where it says:

20 "Members of the 10th Brigade arrested the following military

21 police officers, Delic Admir, Ibrahim Greda, so on and so forth.

22 Do you know who this person is Admir Delic who is mentioned here?

23 A. Yes, Admir Delic is the son of General Delic.

24 Q. According to what you know, did something like that happen to the

25 General's son?

Page 8185

1 A. Yes what is said here did actually happen.

2 Q. Can you briefly describe what you know about that event?

3 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honours. This is largely irrelevant

4 to the charges facing the accused, and I don't see exactly why we need to

5 be going into what happened to the accused's son.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I absolutely

8 disagree. This particular detail is very relevant, and it is very

9 illustrative of the situation in which -- actually it is very relevant

10 for the indictment. This is June 1993, July 1993, so it's relative in

11 terms of the indictment when General Delic is receiving letters. This is

12 the situation in which General Delic was acting, and this is the

13 situation that indicates his influence as a commander. This is going to

14 be quite clear in the next two or three questions. The Supreme Command

15 staff is being attacked, and his son is arrested. So if this is not

16 relevant for the situation in which he was acting and for the

17 situation -- or actually for the Court's understanding of how powerless

18 he was to do anything in that situation, then ...

19 Your Honours, actually, I cannot understand the nature of the

20 objection.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question will be allowed.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before that, I just

24 have a correction for the transcript. I was speaking quickly so they did

25 not manage to put it in.

Page 8186

1 I put in the time in which the -- General Delic allegedly

2 received documents and not received documents.

3 Q. Witness, we were interrupted. I would just like to ask you if

4 you recall my question.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you answer?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. Please, go ahead?

9 A. Admir Delic and Greda Ibrahim were arrested by members of the 9th

10 and 10th Mountain Brigade while they were carrying out their regular

11 assignments. They were brought to their headquarters. Their IDs were

12 confiscated and then they could see exactly who these persons were as

13 soon as they found out that it was General Delic's son, they began to

14 abuse him, insult him, beat him. They took their uniforms from them and

15 gave them worn torn clothes to wear, and after that, they were taken to

16 dig trenches. During the interrogation, Greda Ibrahim and Admir Delic at

17 some point managed to escape to the part of the building that was under

18 the control of the Egyptian Battalion. They were then arrested by

19 members of the Egyptian Battalion and returned to members of the 9th and

20 10th Mountain Brigade and then they beat them up even more.

21 Q. Let me ask you this: To your knowledge, was General Delic able

22 to have any sort of influence on this situation involving his son?

23 A. General Delic could not have any influence on this situation for

24 any course of action. He had to ask for the approval of the superior

25 structure, and that was the Presidency and the president of the republic.

Page 8187

1 The commander could not take any action on his own.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I want the witness to be shown

4 D937.

5 Q. What you see on the screen is a document dated the 5th of July,

6 1993, and it's a medical certificate belonging to Admir Delic. Please

7 have a look at it. Is this document related to the events you described?

8 A. Yes. This document is related to the event which took place.

9 However, I see that his injuries were very much downplayed in this

10 medical certificate, because the injuries Admir Delic sustained were far

11 more severe than described here.

12 Q. And what is your interpretation of this answer?

13 A. Well, this is how I see it --

14 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. This is both irrelevant, and I fail to

17 see how the accused's body-guard can interpreter a medical certificate.

18 So we object both on the grounds that this is completely irrelevant to

19 these charges, and certainly the accused's body-guard is not in a

20 position to comment or interpret a medical certificate in our respective

21 submission.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how it

24 was interpreted. I did not ask the witness to interpret this medical

25 certificate, although this is how you may see it on the transcript. I

Page 8188

1 wanted the witness to interpret or tell us to interpret his own words to

2 us, to tell us what it is that he meant when he said that the medical

3 certificate was downplayed. I was interested in his answer and not in

4 the medical certificate.

5 Q. Can you please answer my question?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: When she is now going to tell us about the

7 downplaying of the certificate he is beginning to comment on this

8 document, and I really don't know whether he is a person to comment on

9 this document. I think the document speaks for itself.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Ultimately, yes, Your Honour. I

11 withdraw the question.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, my objection still stands to this

14 entire line of questioning. It is one thing to say that incidents

15 concerning the 9th and 10th the Defence position being that they were not

16 under control. It is a completely entirely different matter to be going

17 into these injuries sustained by the accused's son that has nothing to do

18 in our respectful view with the issues concerning this trial.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was meaning to

23 respond to this, and I apologise. I didn't see that you were conferring

24 there.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Would you like to respond now? I'm sorry.

Page 8189

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I meant to say that I had already

2 explained the position of the Defence because the Prosecutor repeated the

3 objection that was raised earlier on. And I had, at that point,

4 responded why I believed the line of questioning was highly relevant and

5 I was referring to all the questions, save for the last one that I

6 withdrew.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic. We understand that you may

8 have had a point in making -- telling us what happened on the 9th and

9 10th -- is it the 9th and 10th? But I really think, and I think this is

10 the view of the Bench that you're going a little too far. We've heard

11 that the accused's son was arrested, was beaten up. What are we going to

12 could with this medical certificate, for instance, what are we going to

13 do with the extend of his injuries?

14 If you tell us he was beaten up and the accused therefore had to

15 go and attend to him, that's enough, but to tell us the extent of the

16 injuries, I don't think it is absolutely relevant.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I want the document to

18 be assigned an exhibit number and the point, why I want this document to

19 be admitted, is neither what the Prosecutor claims here nor what you

20 inferred.

21 Now, the point of the matter is not whether the accused was

22 supposed to go and see his son but the extent to which the accused had

23 influence to wield and what the situation was like within the command and

24 control system as he took up his duties and what his position in that

25 was. In the context of his son being arrested, and for this reason, Your

Page 8190

1 Honour, I would like this document to be admitted into evidence.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you wanted to have this document

3 admitted, just say so. When you give all that argument, I'm not sure

4 whether you are commenting on the ruling that has been made or not and

5 that would not be appropriate or permissible, to comment on a ruling.

6 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would again object on the grounds

7 that this is not relevant. The medical certificate is not relevant to

8 these proceedings, and we say that all due respect both to the accused

9 and to his son. The fact of the matter is issues concerning command and

10 control even as they related to the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigades in

11 Sarajevo. That issue is separate from this medical issue, this medical

12 certificate and what happened to the accused's son. And this document

13 and this line of questioning is not relevant in our respectful

14 submission.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is not going to be admitted.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, did you hear of an individual called Senad Pecar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us whether something was happening that involved

21 this person?

22 A. Yes. At that time Senad Pecar was taken into the military

23 security office and he was one of --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat his duty.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

Page 8191

1 Q. Do you recall what happened after that?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter asked that the witness repeat the

3 duty of this person.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Senad Pecar was assistant commander

5 of the 10th Mountain Brigade.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this

8 might be the good time for our break.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We still have some three minutes, Madam Vidovic.

10 Unless you're saying you're going into a new topic and you don't want to

11 break it.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I resume my

19 examination of the witness, I would like to state the following for the

20 record.

21 During the testimony of the earlier witness, General Karavelic,

22 we received an order to change an exhibit MFI 1334, or, rather, we were

23 ordered to change the translation by adding one word. This was a piece

24 of video footage, if you recall, MFI 1334. We corrected the error in the

25 translation and sent the video-clip to the Prosecution and the chamber,

Page 8192

1 as well as the registrar. And can the number of the Exhibit MFI 1334 now

2 be changed? Can it be given another exhibit number?

3 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we were provided a DVD with this

4 video. We'll take a look at it perhaps at the next break if not any

5 sooner. I don't think we can access it here in the courtroom, and I

6 think it is fine at that point based on Madam Vidovic's assurances and if

7 there is an problem I will come back to you, but I think it might cleaner

8 at this point to go ahead and admit the document, strike the MFI and if

9 there is a problem then I will revisit the issue, if that is acceptable.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis. MFI 1334 is now

11 admitted into evidence and it is Exhibit 1334. Thank you very much.

12 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Before the break, we spoke of Senad Pecar. You said that you

15 knew who he was. Can you tell us briefly what was going on after his

16 arrest. Do you have any knowledge about this and why did you mention him

17 having been arrested.

18 A. Senad Pecar was arrested and taken to the military security

19 office. At that point in time, we were right outside the Security

20 Administration building when the chief of the military administration,

21 Fikret Muslimovic the president's escort Haris Lukovac and two more

22 officers of the military security sector were commenting upon the arrest

23 of Senad Pecar. There were two members from the 10th Mountain Brigade

24 there as well. Through a hand held radio set, Musan Topalovic, Caco,

25 spoke -- Musan Topalovic spoke to someone from the Presidency and it

Page 8193

1 boiled down to this. He was threatening that unless Senad Pecar was

2 released right away, he would be using mortars to shell the Presidency

3 building. He also threatened to abandoned the defence line held by his

4 brigade.

5 We then went to the Presidency building.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who had arrested -- what's his name --

7 Senad Pecar.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Senad Pecar was arrested by members

9 of the military security service.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What for?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of their actions that I

12 already mentioned. Some criminal activities from earlier on, attacks on

13 public security stations and so on.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: He was part of Caco's clique?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was one of the deputies of

16 Musan Topalovic, Caco.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You said we were outside the Presidency building and then you

20 said we went into the Presidency building. Who is we?

21 A. The Commander Rasim Delic, and I as his escort.

22 Q. Very well. Tell us what happened next, if anything happened?

23 A. General Delic attended a meeting with the president. I don't

24 know what the meeting was about. I did not attend such meetings. I do

25 know that as we returned to the command Senad Pecar was released.

Page 8194

1 Q. To your knowledge, did General Delic have any information about

2 this case?

3 A. No, he didn't have any information about the case. We were taken

4 aback by it. The commander was quite poorly informed of all the

5 goings-on.

6 Q. You say we were taken aback. Why was this the case?

7 A. Because the commander didn't have any information about these

8 events.

9 Q. And who did?

10 A. The president of the Presidency had the relevant information.

11 They turned to the president for all the problems they had. They did not

12 recognise the commander of the 1st Corps as their immediate superior or

13 the commander of the staff of the Supreme Command. They did not

14 recognise them. For any problems they had, they turned to the

15 Presidency.

16 Q. Thank you. I want to move on to a different topic now.

17 In your evidence you said that the command post of the staff of

18 the Supreme Command was in a building in the centre of Sarajevo. Did

19 there come a time when a command post of the staff of the Supreme Command

20 was set up outside Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes. In early 1994, in Kakanj.

22 Q. To your knowledge, how often did General Delic go to Kakanj?

23 A. Very rarely. Only if we were on a route to other corps that we

24 would visit. He only went to Kakanj rarely.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown video 28

Page 8195

1 now, please. Video 28.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, what was mentioned here was that part of the staff was

5 operative in Kakanj and part was operative in Sarajevo and that they

6 communicated only through occasional visits and correspond but that there

7 were not many opportunities to meet up. This is what the speaker said.

8 What is your comment in respect of that?

9 A. This shows that the commander spent very little of his time in

10 Kakanj to meet up with his subordinates. They didn't have occasion to

11 meet often.

12 Q. How long would the General stay in Kakanj, if he stayed there at

13 all?

14 A. Sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes two hours or one hour,

15 sometimes -- actually, not ever a whole day but more or less a couple of

16 hours.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this video-clip

18 be given an exhibit number.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, who was the first speaker?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness the Judge is asking you --

22 A. The Chief of Staff, General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said General?

Page 8196

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 The video clip V 28 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

4 given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours video 28 will become Exhibit number

6 1357.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You've already told us that you were near General Delic. Can you

11 please tell me, after the Kakanj command post was established, what were

12 the activities of General Delic? Can you please describe that the way

13 you saw it, as his escort?

14 A. After Kakanj was established, General Delic had a lot of work.

15 There were a lot of duties, and most often this consisted of negotiations

16 with members of the HVO, the establishment of a lasting truce and the

17 cessation of hostilities. There were also lots of meetings with

18 representatives of international community and members of the HVO and all

19 of this brought about the Zagreb agreement and this was, I think, on the

20 28th of February, 1994. He was fully engaged in this matter.

21 Q. So let's clarify for the transcript. It's not all there.

22 Here you're talking about the period after the establishment of

23 the Kakanj forward command post?

24 A. Yes, this is January and February 1994.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I would like you to just tell us briefly as

Page 8197

1 follows. You said that General Delic worked on this agreement with the

2 Croats. After the agreement, were there any activities that you know of?

3 A. Yes. After that, General Delic was even busier on joint

4 cooperation of the army of the B and H and the HVO and the Croatian army.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now

7 look at D986, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't overlap, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

10 For the transcript, this is a part of the daily information

11 bulletin on the 11th of January, 1995.

12 Can we please scroll down that -- so that we see the bottom of

13 the document in the Bosnian version and also can we zoom in on the part

14 of the text in the Bosnian version -- the part of the text in the lower

15 right-hand corner. Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, now can you please look at this. The title is

17 Delic-Rose talks. Can you please tell us who was this person Rose, if

18 you know?

19 A. Yes, I do. This was British General Michael Rose commander of

20 the UNPROFOR forces for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Q. Did General Rose meet with this person from what you know?

22 A. Yes, General Rose and General Delic met frequently.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the second page

24 of this document, also in the English version.

25 Q. Could you please zoom in the section in the middle where it says:

Page 8198

1 "The military attache, US military attache visits General Delic?

2 Witness, can you please look at that section of the text. The

3 next talks about a meeting that had to do with the implementation of the

4 military part of the Washington Agreement. I would like to ask you if

5 you know whether this visit by the US military attache was an exception

6 in this period or did something like this happen frequently, if you know?

7 A. Yes, I do know. The US military attache's visit was not an

8 exception. He would come by quite often. Not just him, all the

9 accredited military attaches in Bosnia would often come and visit the

10 commander as well as representatives of international organisations the

11 Red Cross. They would all come to talk with the commander.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

13 given an exhibit number, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

17 number 1358.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you -- thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now

20 look at D991, please.

21 For the transcript, what will be interesting to us is this bottom

22 right-hand corner. General Delic -- actually, the whole section, both of

23 the text in the lower right-hand corner. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you this: This is the press centre

25 release of the 15th of March, 1995 of the army where it says

Page 8199

1 General Delic received Ambassador Preinsing and then also the military

2 attache of the Republic of France?

3 A. Yes, that is right.

4 Q. Can you please tell us how much time General Delic actually spent

5 with these people?

6 A. Quite a lot of time. They would come to visit the commander

7 often. They would be interested in the implementation of the peace

8 accords, cooperation with the Croatian Defence Council, the Croatian Army

9 how this was being implemented and the implementation of the agreement.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this exhibit

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, before we decide on the admission

13 of this document, I have a question that relates to this and in fact also

14 the former document, namely to understand the relevance to it.

15 Does the witness know whether any matters relevant to the

16 indictment were discussed during these meetings or what is otherwise the

17 purpose of bringing them to us, other than showing that General Delic was

18 a busy man, which I fully believe.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I'm going to be

20 very brief without influencing the witness in any way.

21 This speaks to, in part, about what you said, about what the

22 General was doing but what's important also are the dates of these

23 documents. They could be very relevant in indicating where General Delic

24 was, for example. That he wasn't in Kakanj but that he was here.

25 So the dates of these documents and the dates of these visits are

Page 8200

1 very important to us, as well as the fact that we can see what we can --

2 what General Delic was doing as a commander at the strategic level.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is exactly what -- what bothers me a bit.

4 Because I don't see what he was doing as a staff commander. I see that

5 he was doing something, that he was talking to Johannes Preinsing or

6 other military diplomates or military ones. But what they were talking

7 about is not obvious from these two bulletins.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, based on these two

9 bulletins, the way I see it we can see that this is military diplomacy

10 this is involved. But we will have a couple of witness who perhaps would

11 be able to throw more light on these documents and meetings.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: All right.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

16 number 1359.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. Mr. Dedovic, I would now like to focus on some events from

21 June and July 1995.

22 Before I move to June and July 1995, I would like to ask you if

23 you recall the situation in the town of Sarajevo in the spring and summer

24 of 1995?

25 A. The situation in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo was critical. We

Page 8201

1 were exposed to constant artillery fire. There was a large number of

2 civilian victims. There were shortages of food electricity, water, and

3 this led to further developments whereby all of these things had to be

4 resolved. So that was when plans were made to lift the blockade of the

5 town of Sarajevo. So this went on until sometime in June.

6 Q. All right. You said that there were plans to lift the blockade

7 of Sarajevo. Do you know anything about who ordered the planning of

8 these activities to lift the blockade?

9 A. The Presidency as the supreme commander of the army headed by the

10 president, adopted this decision.

11 Q. Do you remember hearing any views expressed by General Delic

12 relating to this decision?

13 A. Yes. I know that the commander made a comment that this was not

14 the time to carry out such a broad operation because the armija at that

15 point in time did not have enough materiel and equipment for such an

16 extensive action. There were shortages of everything, artillery,

17 ammunition, infantry ammunition, medical personnel that would be needed

18 at times like that. So we were not quite ready but the commander had to

19 carry out the superior's orders, I assume.

20 Q. Very well. And do you recall what the role of General Delic was

21 in that action?

22 A. General Delic's role was to plan and lead or control the action.

23 Q. Can you please tell us, if you remember, how long the operation

24 lasted?

25 A. The Sarajevo operation went on from early June until the end of

Page 8202

1 August 1995.

2 Q. Do you remember how involved General Delic was in this action?

3 A. He was very engaged and involved in all areas relating to this

4 action.

5 Q. What did this mean practically? Can you describe that?

6 A. Practically this meant that he was constantly at forward command

7 posts, that he was touring the corps -- the corps units in order to

8 establish the best possible coordination among units during combat

9 actions to control the activities and this called for permanent

10 activities by the commander.

11 Q. And were you with him all the time throughout that whole action?

12 A. Yes, I was with him the whole time of the action.

13 Q. Do you remember when you left Sarajevo in order to have the

14 General command the combat actions? Do you remember?

15 A. Early June 1995.

16 Q. And after that, did you return to Sarajevo? Do you remember?

17 A. In that period, for some three or four months, we returned to

18 Sarajevo once. The rest of the time we spent with the units. The

19 commander was directly involved in combat actions.

20 Q. Can you please describe what this was like, what was he doing?

21 Was he stationed in one place, did he move from place to place? Can you

22 please tell us?

23 A. It was like this. You cannot be in one place and still manage or

24 lead the whole operation. We kept changing locations constantly, moving

25 from the forward command post at Prokociva Visoko then the Nisici

Page 8203

1 plateau, and in order to tour all of those places without stopping for

2 long, just from Visocica from Proskok you would need some seven to eight

3 hours travelling on the road the way they were then. Then it was also a

4 very complex operation, which meant that we were constantly on the move.

5 Q. All right. Please, do you remember whether General Delic

6 received or did not receive any documents during the action?

7 A. No, General Delic did not receive any documents in that period

8 because that is something that would have been handed to me first, so,

9 for sure, he didn't receive any documents.

10 Q. So General Delic was evidently absent. So how did the staff

11 function, according to what you know?

12 A. Just like any other staff, the commander, of course, has his

13 deputies, he has the Chief of Staff. They all are carrying out their own

14 assignments, naturally.

15 Q. All right.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, I fail to understand what the witness

17 has just told us, because in my -- in my understanding, it would be very

18 difficult to -- to lead a major operation of this kind without receiving

19 or indeed sending any documents from the units that worked under his

20 command.

21 So I would like you to explain to the Court how -- how the

22 communication was done then.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the direct participation of

24 the commander in the action he was able to do that. There was no need

25 for the reports to be sent to him because he was out in the field. We

Page 8204

1 toured all the locations where combat activities were ongoing.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I'm sure that -- that all the units in the

3 corps and the brigade and the battalions would send documents up through

4 the system, documents that were intended to reach General Delic.

5 So how did he get that information?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The General did not receive

7 that information. If the information did arrive, it reached the Chief of

8 Staff.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And would the Chief of Staff then relay orally

10 the information to General Delic? Is that how it functioned?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that, because I was

12 not present when these conversations would take place.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Q. Can you tell us for the sake of the record slowly, please, what

16 were these locations where you said the corps had its forward command

17 posts, or you also mentioned the locations General Delic visited. Can

18 you take them one by one slowly, please?

19 A. Proskok, a location on Mount Igman; Visocica, just above Visoko;

20 Orahovo, above Ilijas; and the Nisici plateau.

21 Q. All right. To your knowledge, when did the combat activities

22 relating to the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo gain momentum? When

23 did they come to a head?

24 A. It was between the 10th and the 17th of July, 1995. That was the

25 time when the fighting was at its highest.

Page 8205

1 Q. Do you recall where it was in that period of time you mentioned,

2 between the 10th and the 17th of July of 1995, that General Delic was to

3 be found?

4 A. As I said earlier on, we were visiting parts of the Sarajevo

5 battlefield. All that time.

6 Q. You mentioned Proskok and Visocica how far were these locations

7 from Sarajevo?

8 A. To reach Visocica from Proskok, and the circumstances and

9 conditions at the time and the roads in place it took you some seven to

10 eight hours to make the journey.

11 Q. Perhaps I misunderstood your answer. But let me ask you this:

12 What is the distance between Visocica and Proskok on the one hand and

13 Sarajevo on the other?

14 A. Do you know as the crow flies or along the roadways.

15 Q. I mean along the roadways that enabled you to reach Sarajevo at

16 the time.

17 A. That's what I meant when I said some seven to eight hours.

18 Q. Very well. I will be referring to July 1995.

19 Did you learn of some events taking place in Eastern Bosnia at

20 that time?

21 A. Yes, we heard of the exodus of the Eastern Bosnia region that

22 massacre had been committed on the civilian population and that an exodus

23 of the civilian population took place not only in Srebrenica and Zepa

24 both of which were UN protected areas.

25 Q. Do you remember how General Delic came to learn about these

Page 8206

1 events?

2 A. General Delic learnt about these events through the 2nd Corps.

3 Q. Did he take any action or do anything in relation to that?

4 A. Since at that point in time the commander was preoccupied with

5 the Sarajevo action, some five to seven days later, we set out for the

6 Tuzla region. That's to say into the AOR of the 2nd Corps where the

7 commander stayed in Kladanj and Tuzla where refugees were coming in as

8 well as the wounded.

9 Q. Do you recall when this was, approximately?

10 A. It was some seven days later so the 18th or the 19th of July.

11 Q. Of which year?

12 A. 1995.

13 Q. What did General Delic do in fact in the areas of Kladanj and

14 Tuzla?

15 A. We were in the area where civilians were coming in and the

16 commander spoke to them. These were situations of grave hardship when

17 you see the wounded, individuals whose entire families were killed, when

18 you spoke to people who managed to survive these atrocities. It was very

19 difficult.

20 Q. Do you recall what it was that happened later on, after the 19th

21 and the 20th of July, 1995?

22 A. We went to Split and stayed there some two to three days.

23 Q. Thank you. When you say, "we went to Split," who do you mean?

24 A. General Delic and I.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 8207

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now

2 be shown D1005, 1005.

3 For the record, this is an excerpt from the daily information

4 bulletin of the BH army for the date of the 23rd of July, 1995.

5 And can you please zoom in on the bottom right column in the

6 Bosnian version. Thank you very much.

7 Q. You see that the text reads: Yesterday, in Split a meeting of

8 the delegations from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatian joint

9 declaration prepared.

10 You told us that you went to Split together with General Delic

11 and do you recall what the -- the motive of that visit was?

12 A. It was precisely the Split declaration as it came to be known

13 later which meant the strengthening of the relations between the Croatian

14 army and the BH army and achievement of peace.

15 Q. Do you recall how long the negotiations took?

16 A. Two to three days.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

19 be assigned an exhibit number.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

23 number 1360.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8208

1 Q. Mr. Dedovic, do you remember where you went next after Split?

2 A. Yes, I do. We went to Krajina to the Bihac region, to the

3 Una-Sana area, which was under strong enemy activity at the time; and the

4 fighters there had to fight two fronts, one was against the fors of

5 Fikret Abdic and the other was against the Serb forces and they were in a

6 very dire situation. They were almost faced with the same fate as befell

7 those in Srebrenica.

8 Q. You mentioned the forces of Fikret Abdic and this wasn't entered

9 in the transcript, did you mention that?

10 A. Yes, Fikret Abdic's forces.

11 Q. Can you tell Their Honours anything about these forces, what do

12 you mean when you say they were faced with two different enemies?

13 A. Yes, on the one hand you had Fikret Abdic, who enjoyed the

14 support of forces from Serbia. He had members of the White Tigers and

15 Arkan's men on his side. They enjoyed support from Serbia, and the other

16 enemy was member of the Serb army.

17 Q. Not earn in the courtroom is familiar with Fikret Abdic. Can you

18 tell us who he is?

19 A. He was a the self-proclaimed of -- president of the

20 self-proclaimed autonomous province of western Bosnia. They set up their

21 own army.

22 Q. Can you tell us his ethnicity?

23 A. He was a Bosniak.

24 Q. Do you recall what General Delic was doing at this time?

25 A. He was quite busy with the activities in Krajina precisely. This

Page 8209

1 meant that he to set up defence line there and everything else that it

2 entailed, and in doing so he had the support of the Croatian forces.

3 What did this mean? In that period of time we went often to Zagreb to

4 visit General Zvonimir Cervenko, I recall this quite well. And this had

5 to do the cooperation between the two armies in that geographic area.

6 Q. Would you be so kind as to repeat the General of the Croatian

7 army's name?

8 A. General Zvonimir Cervenko.

9 Q. Very well. Do you recall whether there were any visits abroad in

10 this period of time?

11 A. Yes. We were part of an extended military delegation that

12 visited Iran for some five to six days. Upon our return from Iran,

13 Commander Rasim Delic had meetings with representatives of the Croatian

14 army.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Let us look at document D1020, and then I

16 will have some other questions for you.

17 For the record, this is another excerpt from the daily

18 information bulletin issued from the press centre of the army dated 2nd

19 of September, 1995.

20 Can we zoom in on the first bit of the document in the Bosnian

21 version, the delegation of the BH army in Iran. The 28th of August is

22 mentioned here. Were you referring to a visit to Iran in this

23 time-period or --

24 A. Yes, this was precisely the time-period when this visit took

25 place.

Page 8210

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be assigned an

2 exhibit number, please.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, as you may sense, the Chamber is,

5 again, hesitating, because we are not sure we understand the relevance of

6 this document.

7 If you, as I suspect you might, seek introduction of this

8 document into evidence because of the fact that General Delic was away

9 between 28 August to 31st of August and thus was not present in Sarajevo,

10 then my question to you would be: Is this -- should I then infer that

11 General Delic was not in command during those days, or what is the impact

12 that you want to -- to lead out of this document?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the time when

14 preparations were taking place for the action that is the subject of the

15 indictment. The Prosecutor alleged that General Delic had preliminary

16 information early on about the preparations that were taking place for

17 this action.

18 What I'm trying to show with this is where General Delic was in

19 fact at that point in time and what he was doing.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: But the fact that he was physically abroad, does

21 that, in the view of the Defence, imply that he was not in control of

22 what happened during those days when he was absent?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, yes. The

24 Defence, at that time, he was represented by other persons and also this

25 document is important to us. The dates are important, just for the sake

Page 8211

1 of information or knowledge.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: You did not ask for the admission?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did, Your Honour. I am

6 waiting.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I challenge you to show me where

8 you asked on the transcript.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on my screen it's on

10 page 47, line 19, I think. Yes, 19 and 20.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

12 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given

13 an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

15 number 1361.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 I apologise, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 I would like the witness to look at Exhibit D1021, please.

20 For the transcript, it's an article from the Vecernje Novine

21 daily for the 2nd and 3rd of September, 1995. And the article is

22 entitled Delic- Cervenko meeting, successful and useful cooperation.

23 Witness do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Before, you mentioned that General Delic after returning from

Page 8212

1 Iran met with General Cervenko. Can you please comment whether this was

2 at this time?

3 A. Yes, that was precisely at this time.

4 Q. Do you see the dates here, the 2nd and the 3rd of September?

5 A. The 2nd and the 3rd of September.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours can the document be

8 given a exhibit number, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1362.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Dedovic, have I been putting many questions to you that I am

15 aware that you might have difficulty recollecting the answers to, but I

16 would like to ask you the following.

17 You recall that until the 3rd of September, according to this

18 article and then after returning from Iran you stayed in Zagreb for two

19 or three days?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember what happened after that? Do you remember what

22 General Delic was doing, what happened after the 3rd of September, 1995?

23 A. We came back to tour the Sarajevo front. We spent a couple of

24 days there and then after that, I think, on the 8th or 9th of September,

25 we went to Malaysia.

Page 8213

1 Q. Can you please tell us again where you went?

2 A. We went to Malaysia, because at the time, there was a conference

3 of Islamic countries for assistance to Bosnia and Herzegovina that was

4 being held in Malaysia.

5 Q. Do you remember how long this flight lasted? First of all, I

6 want to ask you this, do you remember when the conference began?

7 A. Yes, the conference began on the 9th of September, and it went on

8 until the 16th of September. The trip to the destination, the actual

9 flight, took some 13 or 13 and a half hours. We had to leave one day

10 early in order to get to the conference in time. Actually, we got there

11 a day before it began.

12 Q. When you say you arrived the day before the conference, that

13 means --

14 A. That means the 8th of September.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what General Delic was doing during

16 the conference?

17 A. The General was very busy. He was fully involved because all the

18 Islamic countries representatives who were taking part in the conference

19 wanted to speak with the commander about the kind of help needed by

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina which would not have survived at that time without

21 the assistance of Islamic countries. So they all wished individually or

22 as a delegation to speak with the General, which the commander, of

23 course, made possible for them. He devoted his whole time to them.

24 Q. I would like to ask you this now: In your testimony so far, you

25 said that you were travelling with the General outside of Bosnia and

Page 8214

1 Herzegovina, so I want to ask you this: Were there any contacts between

2 General Delic and yourself with his office while he was absent? Was

3 there any contact with his subordinates?

4 A. No. There was no contact by General Delic either with his office

5 or his subordinates, because if he had wanted to get in touch with

6 anyone, he would have done it through me. I would have made that

7 connection. But talking with the office or the corps command in those

8 conditions, I mean, it was an open line, it could have been tapped, so

9 the General is a cautious man; so he was very careful about things like

10 that.

11 Q. I wanted to ask you this: Why would he inform you? Why would he

12 have asked you to set the connection up?

13 A. Well, General Delic did not speak English, so it was up to me

14 then for that reason to do it.

15 Q. Thank you. According to your knowledge, during the stay in

16 Malaysia did the General have any contacts with his subordinates?

17 A. No, he didn't. He had wanted to get in touch with them, he would

18 have done it with my assistance.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who did you have to speak English to, sir?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Asking for the dialing codes and to

21 have an outside line from the country where you were in required some

22 talking. We didn't have any kind of portable or satellite telephones in

23 order to establish communication.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Dialing codes you get on hotel literature. He

25 could just read that himself. He doesn't need to talk to anyone to get

Page 8215

1 that, does he? He knows the dialing code for Sarajevo, and he would know

2 it even from Malaysia.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, the commander, as a rule,

4 did not actually do the dialing himself or establishing of the

5 communications. This was something that I did.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That is a different story. Sorry, the

7 problem was not English, the problem was there was protocol.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I was just actually about to

9 ask that.

10 Q. Other than English, was there any other reason why you would do

11 that?

12 A. Well, from the security point of view, and the topic of the

13 conversation, that was something that he had to take into consideration

14 in view that it was an open line, whether he wanted to risk that or not.

15 Q. Did you have any rules of your own? Just wait a little bit,

16 please. Take it slowly. Just wait for me to finish.

17 You, as General Delic's escort, did you have your own rules that

18 you had to respect?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you something else now.

21 During this trip to Malaysia, do you remember if the General had

22 maps, if he took any maps with him?

23 A. No, General Delic did not carry any maps with him. I was

24 carrying his personal items. It was just a brief case where

25 General Delic kept a notebook.

Page 8216

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't carry any maps in that brief case?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no maps.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness look

4 at Exhibit 1078 now, please.

5 For the transcript, this is an excerpt from the duty operations

6 officer for the 14th and 15th of September, 1995. From the duty

7 operation officer's diary for those dates.

8 Q. Can you please look at this paragraph, Mr. Dedovic. Can you read

9 what it says in paragraph marked with the number 4?

10 A. Yes. Should I read it?

11 Q. Well, I quote it for you what it says is that at 1900 hours BH

12 army commander General Delic rang and asked about the situation in the

13 area of responsibility of the 1st Corps this was at 1900 hours on the

14 14th/15th September 1995.

15 You said that General Delic did not initiate any contacts. Can

16 you comment on what it says here, in this document?

17 A. Yes, I can comment.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether he said he

19 can or cannot comment.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I can assist.

21 My question was not precisely noted down in the transcript, if this is

22 the problem.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Please, I just want to clarify my question to you.

Page 8217

1 Testifying you said that General Delic did not establish contacts

2 by telephone with his subordinates. There was a call recorded here and

3 an alleged call by General Delic. I would like you to comment on that,

4 if you can.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the first part of

6 the answer of the witness.

7 A. In view of that, the state of health of General Delic at the time

8 who had an elevated blood sugar our team that went to Malaysia also

9 included a doctor Bosanko Horozic, who was a diabetes specialist so what

10 I want to say with this. I want to say that General Delic had to take

11 medicines on time in view of the time distance which was some six to

12 seven hours, meaning that our time, if it was 1900 hours in Malaysia it

13 was then 2.00 in the morning. That means that according to all of this

14 and in view of the activities that the commander had over those days, at

15 that time he definitely would not have been able to call.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry --

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I would just like to ask you --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, there are a number of confusing

20 issues for me around this discussion and this document.

21 First of all, I don't think what the witness said now answers the

22 question you asked. And I don't see how relevant it is to the question.

23 Secondly, we have just been told that this is a duty officer's

24 diary. I don't know duty -- and I see there is 3rd Corps at the bottom.

25 I don't know where this duty officer is stationed and on what day is this

Page 8218

1 telephone discussion. I know you have said it is 14th/15th of

2 September and -- okay. So General Delic would have been in Malaysia at

3 the time.

4 Can we just get the answer to your question.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I will, Your Honours.

6 Obviously the transcript did not catch the first part of the witness's

7 answer.

8 Q. Witness, please, I asked you if you can comment on this part of

9 this document that refers to the telephone call or, rather, a call,

10 telephone call by General Delic which was received by the 3rd Corps at

11 1900 hours. And you answered but the first part of your answer was not

12 included in the transcript, and the interpreters noted that in the

13 transcript.

14 Please, can you comment on this?

15 A. At that time and it had to do with the conference in view of the

16 fact that General Delic was suffering from diabetes we had a doctor with

17 us in our team his name was Bosanko Horozic, who was a specialist for

18 diabetes. The commander was being administered insulin, so in view of

19 the activities that he was performing over those few days he was quite

20 busy and if we take into account the time difference, 1900 hours here, is

21 2.00 in the mourning in Malaysia, so in that time-period, the commander

22 was probably sleeping. He didn't have any activities because he had to

23 stick to doctor's instructions.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours if I can say I don't

25 know what is happening the witness is answering quite clearly, but the

Page 8219

1 answer is not being correctly reflected I don't know if it is the

2 interpretation or what it is. It does not reflect what the witness is

3 saying. It's very confusing.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, the whole story about

5 General Delic's condition and health while in Kuala Lumpur has nothing to

6 do with the question you put. It may very well be that the witness has

7 given an answer. If can you ask him to give a short concise and relevant

8 answer to your question, please. He is asked to comment on the fact that

9 he testified that General Delic didn't normally make calls now there is a

10 record of a call.

11 What has his health got to do with the question? I would think

12 you should control your witness too, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is

14 answering what the connection is, but the transcript does not reflect

15 that. That is the problem. The witness is saying that the man was sick

16 and that he was asleep at that time.

17 Q. Witness, can you please simply say what you were explaining now.

18 Why are you mention a doctor. Why are you mentioning this?

19 A. Because the General was sticking to the instructions of the

20 doctor in view of the seven hour time difference in view of the fact that

21 it was 2.00 a.m. in Malaysia and 7.00 p.m. in Bosnia at the time, this

22 cannot stand, because the General's definitely asleep at that time, and I

23 want to add something else.

24 In principle if the commander even spoke, he would talk with the

25 corps commanders not with duty operations officers. He asked for

Page 8220

1 information firsthand. He would not ask information from the duty

2 centre. I mean, it's a question of how much information they would have

3 available.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, let me just hold this piece of answer.

6 I don't know, one, where the witness gets 2.00 a.m. and 7.00 p.m.

7 because there call was made at 9.30 in the morning, number one or what is

8 it. Sorry, 7.00 in the evening, okay, fair enough.

9 Is the answer is that -- is the witness denying that this call

10 could have been made by General Delic is that the purpose of all this

11 explanation, because he was asleep at that time?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, can you answer this, please.

14 A. Yes. That was the time difference. When it was 7 p.m. local

15 time, it was 2.00 a.m. in Malaysia, and I know that the commander was

16 sleeping at such wee hours. He was not making phone calls.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You see that had never come up. It is

18 coming up now for the first time, after three or four attempts. I mean,

19 I'm talking about the English part of it.

20 Yes, you may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Let me ask you this: In connection with Malaysia and the trip

23 General Delic made, how did the journalists and the public at large in

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina view this. Do you recall?

25 A. Yes, I do. They had a negative view of all the visits undertaken

Page 8221

1 by General Delic at the time. They would make statements to the effect

2 that General Delic was travelling around the world while Bosnia was at

3 war, which shows that they simply did not grasp what it was that he was

4 doing.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be the

6 right time for a break.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

8 We will take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

9 Court adjourned.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Dedovic, before the break, we left off as I was asking you

15 about the reaction on the part of the media and the public at large to

16 the trips that General Delic undertook in September 1995.

17 And I would like now to show the witness D768. It's a document

18 from the moral guidance administration dated 24th of September, 1995.

19 I apologise, it's Exhibit 768; my apologies.

20 The document is titled information on the negative publicity in

21 some of the media.

22 Can the witness be shown page 3 of the document, please. The

23 second paragraph in the Bosnian version, which is page 2, the last

24 paragraph on that page of the English version. Page 2 of the English

25 version and page 3 of the Bosnian version. Thank you.

Page 8222

1 Witness, I'll direct your attention to the second paragraph,

2 which reads:

3 "The authority of the commander of the General Staff, army

4 General Rasim Delic, was treated with open irony in an article entitled

5 "Sala Masala" what a joke by Sead Fetahagic in Oslobodjenje of 18

6 September 1995 and similarly in an article entitled 51 per cent of Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina liberated by Senad Avdic in Slobodna Bosna, issue 2, 21

8 September 1995. The following inappropriate comparison was made:

9 Dudakovic almost in Banja Luka, Delic almost in Kuala Lumpur.

10 Do you recall this, witness?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Does this text reflect the reaction on the part of the media?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall whether General Delic made any statements for the

15 media thereafter?

16 A. I believe he did.

17 Q. What was it about?

18 A. It was in relation to such texts and head lines that

19 General Delic was trying to justify his actions before the mass media.

20 But this was all due to the fact that they did not in fact know what

21 General Delic's mission had been, as I already stated.

22 Q. Thank you. Based on what you can remember, when was it that

23 returned from Malaysia?

24 A. We came back from Malaysia on the 17th of September.

25 Q. Do you recall where it was that you went next?

Page 8223

1 A. We went to the area of Bosnian Krajina where there was fierce

2 fighting going on.

3 Q. When I asked you about where it was that you arrived, I meant by

4 plane.

5 A. We landed in Zagreb where the commander met with representatives

6 of the Croatian army again, and after that meeting, we returned to

7 Bosnia.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown

9 Exhibit 1292. Exhibit 1292.

10 Q. Witness, look at the preamble of the document. You see that the

11 date is the 20th of September. Look at the initial part of the document,

12 or, rather, can I read it out for you.

13 A summit meeting was held in Zagreb on the 19 September 1995

14 between delegations from the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

15 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and army General Rasim Delic and Croatia Mr. Franjo

16 Tudjman, Mr. Susak and General Cervenko in the presence of Mr. Holbrooke,

17 General Clark, Mr. Galbraith, US ambassador to Croatian and the mediator

18 for the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Robert Owen.

19 You a moment ago that you landed in Zagreb where General Delic

20 had some meetings?

21 A. It was precisely to these meetings that I was referring.

22 Q. You mean the names -- the meeting mentioned in this document?

23 Witness, please speak up, I know you're tired by now.

24 A. Very well.

25 Q. Do you recall how long you stayed in Zagreb in relation to these

Page 8224

1 meetings?

2 A. I believe we stayed there for two days.

3 Q. The document can now be put away, please.

4 Do you remember going somewhere after the 19th of September,

5 1995? You said a moment ago that you returned to Bosnia.

6 A. Yes. Specifically to the Bihac area where there were combat

7 activities carried out by our units in that time-period.

8 Q. Very well. You say that combat activities were being conducted.

9 Did everything go to plan?

10 A. No. Not everything went to plan because the coordination between

11 the BH army forces and the Croatian army forces was not that good, and

12 General Delic's task was to ensure that the level of coordination between

13 the respective armies was as good as could be achieved.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown

16 Exhibit 1038.

17 Your Honours, I apologise. It is not an exhibit; it's a D

18 document. D1038.

19 As you can see, it's a photograph.

20 Mr. Dedovic, do you see the photograph clearly.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you assist us by telling us whether you can recognise anyone

23 on this photograph?

24 A. Yes, I do. Do I need to indicate the individuals?

25 Q. Yes, please. I'll ask you to identify the persons here one by

Page 8225

1 one. I want the electronic pen to be handed to you.

2 A. General Atif Dudakovic.

3 Q. Can you place number 1 above his head.

4 A. Fine.

5 Q. Do you recognise anyone else?

6 A. Head of office, Ferid Buljubasic.

7 Q. The second escort?

8 A. Ajhan, army General Rasim Delic. And this is me.

9 Q. Person number 5 is you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember when it was that the photograph was taken?

12 A. It was in early Autumn 1995.

13 Q. A moment ago you told us that you went to the Bosnian Krajina.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was the photograph made at the time or in a different

16 time-period?

17 A. It was made precisely in that time-period.

18 Q. Can you tell us where it was taken?

19 A. I don't know the exact location but it was in the general area of

20 Bihac. I wouldn't be able to tell you the specific location.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you remember how long you stayed in the area with

22 General Delic?

23 A. We stayed there for a couple of days. Next, we visited Zenica

24 and Zavidovici which was on or around the 22nd or 23rd of September.

25 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in Zenica and Zavidovici for?

Page 8226

1 A. It was a very short stay because we visited the 2nd Corps.

2 Q. When you say that you visited the 2nd Corps, where was that

3 exactly?

4 A. We went into the AOR of the 2nd Corps, specifically to the -- to

5 a part of the Vozuca battlefield Petrovo Selo, which was in the area of

6 responsibility of the 2nd Corps.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you recall the events following your visit to

8 Zenica? Did you go to Sarajevo, or elsewhere, if you can remember?

9 A. I think the commander returned to Sarajevo where he had meetings

10 with representatives of the international community. This was the period

11 immediately preceding the signing of the Dayton Accord, and he a great

12 many meetings with representatives of international organisations.

13 Q. Thank you. Before I proceed, I would like the photograph to

14 receive an exhibit number?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis. Mr. President we have no

16 objection to the photograph going in, but I would ask perhaps it is not

17 clear from the transcript the witness marked the numbers one through

18 five, indicated a number of names, but I think he only tied two of those

19 names to the actual numbers on the photographs but perhaps if he could

20 again just clearly indicate who is -- who's who of the names for each of

21 the numbers that would perhaps be helpful.

22 Madam Vidovic, do you think you can help us with that.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I thank

24 my colleague Mundis.

25 Q. Witness, can you answer these questions, please who does number

Page 8227

1 one refer to on this photograph?

2 A. Number 1 is division army General Atif Dudakovic.

3 Q. Atif Dudakovic is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who does normal two relate to?

6 A. Head of office of the commander, Colonel Ferid Buljubasic.

7 Q. Who -- number 3 refers to on this photograph?

8 A. The second escort --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the name.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can you please repeat the name of the second escort because it is

12 not reflected in the transcript.

13 A. Akova Ajhan.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the name of the second escort.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's number 3.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Akova Ajhan. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And number 4, who does that refer to?

22 A. Army General Rasim Delic.

23 Q. And number 5, who does that refer to?

24 A. Ismet Dedovic, who was the personal escort of General Delic.

25 Q. You said that's me. Is that correct?

Page 8228

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. Then the photograph

3 will be admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit

4 number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph will be admitted as

6 Exhibit 1363.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And before you proceed,

8 Madam Vidovic, I just want to ask a clarification question to the

9 witness.

10 Sir, before Mr. Mundis stood up, you said that you think that the

11 commander returned to Sarajevo where he had meetings with representatives

12 of the international community because that was just before the signing

13 of the Dayton Accord.

14 My question to you is where did you and -- and the second escort

15 go to when he went to Sarajevo?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with General Delic throughout

17 that whole trip.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It's just that -- thank you very much.

19 It's just that you said that he went and all this time you have been

20 saying we went.

21 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This is

23 something that I, too, wanted to clarify.

24 Q. Mr. Dedovic, I would like to ask you something about Vozuca.

25 Earlier you mentioned that General Delic was in the Vozuca area. I think

Page 8229

1 you mentioned on the 22nd of September. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I would like to ask you this: You told us that you were

4 constantly with General Delic. In July, August, September, or October,

5 did you notice General Delic's activities that pertained to the Vozuca

6 pocket action, other than that one visit?

7 A. No. From what I know, General Delic had no activities relating

8 to Vozuca. We didn't even stay in that area except on the 22nd of

9 September. That was the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, not the

10 3rd Corps.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

12 witness to look at video 32 now.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps while that's coming up it is unclear whether

14 the last photograph was actually tendered and/or admitted into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was admitted as exhibit 1363, Mr. Mundis.

16 Thank you.

17 What are we now playing? Video 32.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Dedovic, I would like to ask you this: Do you recognise this

21 situation that we have just seen in this video footage?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you in the escort of General Delic during this event?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to ask you this now. For a long time -- you spent a

Page 8230

1 long time with General Delic, most of the war. Please, how did you

2 experience what his attitude was towards the civilian population and

3 towards prisoners of war?

4 A. At any point when addressing soldiers, General Delic emphasised

5 the fact that you had to act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions,

6 strictly according to the Geneva Convention rules.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to ask whether that question is

9 necessary now that he has seen the video anyway. We've got that evidence

10 already from the video.

11 But you may proceed. You have asked a question. Yes, answer it.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to have

13 this video admitted as part of the evidence.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, who is the General speaking to,

15 when was it, and where was it?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Dedovic, can you please answer this question?

18 A. General Delic gave a speech to the newly formed mixed artillery

19 unit in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.

20 Q. Do you remember the year?

21 A. It was 1995.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: And when exactly in 1995 was it? Which month?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was September 1995, I think.

24 Late September.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mid-September 1995. And where was the speech

Page 8231

1 given?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact location,

3 but I know it was in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just

5 intervene. The witness said late September. I don't know, perhaps you

6 received the interpretation as mid-September 1995 and you know

7 General Delic was not there. The witness said late September.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it was just Judge Harhoff not Judge Moloto who

9 was speaking.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: But this was then shortly after the Vozuca

11 operation, was it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the very end of the month of

13 September 1995.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But tell us, Mr. Dedovic, why would the General

15 remind the newly formed regiment about the duties to respect the

16 Geneva Conventions if that was after a major battle. I mean, this sounds

17 to be me to be a speech that the commander would hold just before a major

18 operation were to be launched, he's telling his soldiers that now we're

19 going to this operation and please do not forget to respect the

20 Geneva Conventions. That would be the gist of the speech. So that is

21 why I'm curious to know where are we -- and why was he holding this

22 speech? Thanks.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander, on any occasion not

24 just on the occasion of this speech but on any occasion he would

25 emphasise that the behaviour has to be strictly in accordance to

Page 8232

1 Geneva Convention rules in respect of civilians and prisoners of war. He

2 would emphasise that on any occasion, not just on this speech.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe, Madam Vidovic, you can help me out,

4 because I need to understand why we are seeing this. I accept that the

5 General would remind his people to of course respect the laws of the war,

6 but it is in -- in proximity to these operations that took place in

7 September 1995 and it is within the area of responsibility of the

8 3rd Corps.

9 So has this anything to do with the crimes charged in the

10 indictment?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this speech does not

12 have anything to do with parts of the indictment, and I believe that this

13 witness said -- I don't believe that this witness said that he knows

14 anything about Vozuca. I think it was just the opposite. The -- he did

15 not deal with Vozuca at all except for the visit that he talked about.

16 The General is charged under the indictment and one of his duties and

17 general duties was to instruct his subordinates about conduct in war

18 conditions, in accordance with provisions of international humanitarian

19 law and that is why I am presenting this evidence here now. I am putting

20 that to the witness, who knows this for sure.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I accept that, Madam Vidovic. It's just that you

23 can't -- you can't help the Judges or at least you can't help one Judge

24 thinking that it is strange that, on the one hand, we are told that the

25 General did not have any role in the performance of the Vozuca operation,

Page 8233

1 and yet you choose to present us with a video that shows that he was in

2 the area of responsibility, speaking to a newly formed regiment in the

3 3rd Corps, at the same time or approximately at the same time when these

4 actions took place.

5 So you are kindly requested to explain to us then what it means.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, this

7 event that is being shown in the video the witness indicates that took

8 place in late September. The Vozuca action took place considerably

9 earlier, according to the indictment, Your Honour.

10 What the General is being charged with took place earlier.

11 Therefore, I really don't see any connection in this context that you are

12 speaking about the witness said that this event took place in the Zenica

13 area. The witness is not connecting this video with the Vozuca events at

14 all. Possibly you didn't understand that. And the actions of the

15 3rd Corps can in no way be connected only with the Vozuca area. We're

16 talking about a vast area in this case.

17 Your Honours, I apologise, I apologise, my colleague is

18 suggesting that a part of the witness's answer is not reflected in the

19 transcript, but I cannot help in this. The witness definitely did

20 mention that Zenica that the video is from the Zenica area.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I need some clarification

22 regarding this video-clip. It may be that I didn't understand properly.

23 But, Witness, you told us, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

24 you told us that after the meeting in Zagreb on the 22nd of September,

25 you went together with General Delic to Sarajevo where he was very busy

Page 8234

1 with negotiations and so forth.

2 Did you understand that properly?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But now we see him in the area

5 of responsibility of the 3rd Corps and that's end of September. Is that

6 so?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You can't remember the date when

11 this footage was made, can you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the exact date,

13 but I know that it was the end of September, definitely.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This means that he didn't stay

15 all that time in Sarajevo, that he moved about.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is only one exit from

17 Sarajevo in the course of those activities.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I just want to say a little concern

20 I have at the back of my mind which arises from your explanation why you

21 want this video in, I understand that General Delic had the

22 responsibility to do what he has just done, but I also know that he is

23 not charged with failing to do that job. He is charged with crimes that

24 are committed by his subordinates.

25 So that's why I tend to share the concern that Judge Harhoff was

Page 8235

1 raising with you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tender this video

3 into evidence but it is of course down to you to make the ruling.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video is admitted in into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video will become exhibit

8 number 1364.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dedovic.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. My name is Daryl Mundis. I represent the Prosecution in this

18 case. I have a number of questions for you. I want to stress at the

19 outset, sir, that if you don't understand any of my questions just ask me

20 to repeat them, and I will rephrase the question.

21 Can you tell us, sir, a little bit about any military training

22 that you obtained or received prior to the outbreak of the war in Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina.

24 A. Yes. In the former Yugoslav people's army, I was a member of a

25 special purpose unit. I have been training in various sports, and I had

Page 8236

1 been training Judo for more than 20 years. Before the war broke out, I

2 had military experience from the JNA that was at the level of an ordinary

3 private.

4 Q. And when you tell us, sir, that you been in this special purpose

5 unit in the JNA, can you tell us a little bit about what that special

6 purpose unit was and what type of training you had received?

7 A. This was a reconnaissance/sabotage unit to be precise, that

8 special purpose unit.

9 Q. And what kind of training did you receive to become a member of

10 this reconnaissance/sabotage unit?

11 A. I don't know what the criterion of the then-National Defence

12 secretariats was on the basis of which they assigned conscripts to

13 various specialties. I had been a sportsman myself before joining the

14 service, so maybe that was part of the decision there, because part of

15 the training concerned was also that in martial arts.

16 Q. At the time, sir, that you were appointed as a body-guard or

17 escort to General Delic, did you hold any rank?

18 A. There were no ranks in the army at that time.

19 Q. At the time, sir, that ranks were initiated in the ARBiH, what

20 rank, if any, were you given?

21 A. Initially, my rank was second lieutenant, and I ended my career

22 with the rank of a captain.

23 Q. Now, during the course of the war while you were serving as

24 body-guard or escort to General Delic, did you or were you sent for any

25 additional military training?

Page 8237

1 A. No, not during the war. After the war.

2 Q. Okay. And I take it, sir, that because of this position you

3 held, you were never -- during the course of the war, you were personally

4 never a commander of any type, in terms of commanding any type of unit?

5 A. No. I didn't have any combat unit under my command, no.

6 Q. So you told us in -- identifying a number of people on Exhibit

7 1363, the photograph, you told us about a second escort, Akova Ajhan, I

8 believe his name was. Is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. He was hired periodically.

10 Q. Okay. That anticipates my next question but let me ask it

11 anyway.

12 Were the two of you the sole body-guards for General Delic during

13 the war, or were there other people as well who performed this task?

14 A. His son was among the escort of General Delic. Admir Delic was

15 there as well.

16 Q. And, so, just so that we're clear when you say the escort of

17 General Delic, are you telling us that Admir Delic, General Delic's son,

18 also served as a body-guard or when you use the term escort are you

19 referring to something else?

20 A. He was also in -- he was also part of the service providing

21 security for General Delic.

22 Q. Other than providing security for General Delic, what other

23 functions did Admir Delic carry out during the course of the war?

24 A. That was his only duty or function.

25 Q. Now, you told us that this person Akova Ajhan was hired

Page 8238

1 periodically. Can you tell how frequently he was hired? Was it some of

2 the time, most of the time, very rarely, almost always?

3 A. Very rarely.

4 Q. So on all other occasions other than these very rare occasions

5 when Mr. Ajhan was involved, you and Admir Delic constituted the sole

6 security team, close protection team for General Delic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You told us that you were with General Delic virtually all of the

9 time. Is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right. Throughout the war, I was with General Delic

11 throughout the war.

12 Q. Now let me just run through a series of different scenarios if

13 you will and tell us if you would typically have been with General Delic

14 during such situations.

15 When General Delic was having meetings, would you generally be

16 present in those meetings or would you wait outside of the room where the

17 meeting was?

18 A. In principle, I didn't attend meetings, conversations or anything

19 of the sort. This was not part of my job. I waited for the General

20 outside the door.

21 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you were aware, were you not, that

22 General Delic, during the war was a member of the extended Presidency?

23 A. Yes. General Delic was a member of the War Presidency.

24 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you then, to your knowledge,

25 General Delic, when he was in Sarajevo, attended the meetings of the

Page 8239

1 War Presidency, didn't he?

2 A. Yes. When it was possible for him to attend, he did.

3 Q. And when General Delic attended the meetings of the

4 War Presidency, were you in the room or did you wait outside of the room?

5 A. Nobody was admitted into the room, save for the Presidency

6 members. I was always outside of that room.

7 Q. Now, when -- let's talk about other types of meetings. When

8 General Delic would have meetings with, for example, his Chief of Staff,

9 General Enver Hadzihasanovic, would you be present for those types of

10 meetings just General Delic and General Hadzihasanovic, the two of them

11 meeting, would you be present, or would you be outside of the room?

12 A. No. I never personally attended the General's meetings with

13 anyone. My duty was always to be outside of the room where the meeting

14 was taking place, not in that room.

15 Q. Were you ever personally present, Mr. Dedovic, when there were of

16 any discussions or plans for military operations that General Delic

17 attended?

18 A. No. I never attended the planning of any actions.

19 Q. You told us, sir, about a number of occasions when General Delic

20 was outside of Sarajevo, and you specifically indicated or talked about a

21 number of meetings with corps commanders. Is that -- is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Do you recall, sir -- do you recall, sir, being present when

24 General Delic met with any of these corps commanders? For example,

25 General Mahmuljin were you ever present when the two of them had a

Page 8240

1 meeting?

2 A. No. I was never present in the room where they discussed any

3 activities. I was never in such a room together with them.

4 Q. How about during this visit to the Bihac area where there was a

5 photograph of General Delic with Commander Dudakovic. Do you ever recall

6 attending or being present when General Delic met with General Dudakovic?

7 A. No. I never attended their meetings or their conversations.

8 This was always behind closed doors. It was not my job to be present --

9 during such conversations.

10 Q. What about any meetings between General Delic and the 1st Corps

11 commander, General Karavelic, were you ever, sir, personally present when

12 General Delic was meeting with General Karavelic?

13 A. No. Generally speaking of all of these meetings that you have

14 been referring to, I was never present at any of them, and I was always

15 outside of the rooms where they were held.

16 Q. What about meeting, sir, with journalists? Are you aware of the

17 fact that General Delic may have met with journalists during the course

18 of the war?

19 A. Yes. He did meet with them, because following such meetings they

20 would normally hold press conferences to let the public know what the

21 meetings were about.

22 Q. Were you ever personally present, sir, when General Delic gave

23 interviews to journalists, just a one-on-one kind of interview, perhaps

24 in General Delic's office?

25 A. No. I was not in the commander's office while he was making

Page 8241

1 press statements.

2 Q. Okay. So if I understand what you're saying, sir, is when people

3 would come to see General Delic in his office, you would not be present

4 in those meetings. Is that correct?

5 A. No. I never attended these meetings.

6 Q. And that would be regardless of the fact of whether the visitor

7 was a member of the military or a civilian or a journalist or any other

8 type of person?

9 A. No. I was never there. My only duty was to announce their visit

10 to General Delic. Other than that, I was never present at these

11 meetings.

12 Q. And when General Delic was travelling outside of Sarajevo, sir,

13 do you recall any occasion at any location where you personally were in

14 the room when General Delic was having a meeting?

15 A. No. I never was present in the same room where General Delic had

16 a meeting with someone.

17 Q. Okay. And we've talked about the corps commanders or at least a

18 few of them. Does the same hold true, sir, with respect to any other

19 military leaders that General Delic might have met with? That is, you

20 were not present when General Delic met with any other military leaders

21 or commanders?

22 A. No. I had never attended any sort of discussions with officers

23 at any level of the command cadres.

24 Q. What about any meetings that General Delic had with political or

25 civilian authorities? Were you ever present outside of Sarajevo at any

Page 8242

1 such meetings?

2 A. No. I was not present in the meeting rooms.

3 Q. What about meetings, sir, when you travelled with General Delic

4 abroad? Let's focus on that.

5 Do you recall, sir, at any point in time when you were travelling

6 abroad whether you were personally present when General Delic had

7 meetings with any foreign military leaders outside the Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina?

9 A. Well, General Delic did have meetings with both military

10 representatives, representatives of NATO, but I did not attend such

11 meetings, as they were held behind closed doors and nobody was admitted

12 there.

13 Q. And I take it, sir, based on your earlier answers you have just

14 referred to military representatives, representatives of NATO would the

15 same hold true when General Delic met with any HV or HVO Generals outside

16 or other military leaders outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes. In principle, I did not attend -- as a rule I did not

18 attend such meetings and would not be present in the room where they were

19 held.

20 Q. And I guess the final question in this series would be, sir,

21 foreign political or civilian authorities, when General Delic was

22 travelling outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina and met with foreign

23 diplomats or political or civilian leaders were you ever personally

24 present in the room when those meetings took place?

25 A. No I was never present during discussions, no.

Page 8243

1 Q. So based on these answers it would be fair to say, would it not,

2 that throughout the time-period that you were serving as General Delic's

3 body-guard, you were never present personally at any meeting that

4 General Delic had with any military or civilian authority.

5 A. No, I never attended these discussions.

6 Q. Now, let's turn to another subject, and that has to do, sir, with

7 your duties or responsibilities. Can you tell a little bit about what

8 your duties entailed during the time-period that you served as an escort

9 or body-guard for General Delic.

10 A. The duties included providing security for the commander while in

11 a location or on the move, and therefore those were my duties to provide

12 security for the commander while in a location or on the move.

13 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you some peripheral questions on these

14 duties because based on the answers that you gave to my learned colleague

15 Madam Vidovic it seemed that you did a few other things as well, and I'd

16 like to ask you if you could perhaps clarify some of these things for us.

17 You seem to imply, sir, that when you were in Malaysia with

18 General Delic, in the autumn of 1995, that you would have been the person

19 who would have dialed the telephone for him because General Delic doesn't

20 speak English. Is that your testimony, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it was a bit unclear from where I'm sitting anyway whether

23 you would have done that telephone dialing because of the fact that

24 General Delic doesn't speak English or was it because of reasons

25 concerning protocol?

Page 8244

1 A. In principle, it was for security reasons. It meant the

2 opening -- it meant that there was an open line, that could be

3 eavesdropped and that was to be avoided. So it depended on who was on

4 the other end of the line.

5 Q. I'm not sure if I understand your answer, to be quite frank.

6 Let me try to see if I can understand what you're saying.

7 My question, sir, was really whether you were doing the dialing

8 of the telephone because of the fact that General Delic didn't speak

9 English or was it because of issues involving protocol and now you have

10 raised security concerns about open telephone lines.

11 Can you perhaps tell us exactly why it was that you would have

12 been involved in dialing a telephone number from Malaysia, if any phone

13 calls were made?

14 A. From the security aspect.

15 Q. Well, if you're concerns, sir, were security, what difference

16 would it have made whether you were on the phone or General Delic was on

17 the phone? I don't understand -- I don't understand what the difference

18 would be. If you were concerned about open phone lines, what difference

19 does it make who was on the phone?

20 A. Well, it was up to the security assessment, to see who the

21 conversation would take place with whether it was going to be with the

22 command whether it was going to be the office since it was an open line

23 that is eavesdropped and important matters should not be discussed over

24 it.

25 Q. I think we all understand that, sir. But my question really was

Page 8245

1 and I would like to focus your attention on this period when you were in

2 Malaysia with General Delic.

3 Can you tell us how it was that you would make a security

4 assessment concerning whether or not the phone lines were secure?

5 A. That was part of my job. That was my -- one of my duties.

6 Precisely that, to assess security. Based on my security assessment as

7 to whether the line was safe or not, the contact was made.

8 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you this: When you were on this mission

9 or trip to Malaysia with General Delic who else was present, other than

10 the two of you?

11 A. It was a large delegation, including representatives of the

12 politics. We had journalists Senad Kamenica, Dr. Bosanko Horozic, who

13 were also with us. And I can't remember all the names of those who were

14 a part of the delegation.

15 Q. I think the witness said there was a journalist whose name was

16 Senad -- could you recall the name of the journalist?

17 A. Senad Kamenica.

18 Q. Now, other than yourself and General Delic, who else in the

19 delegation was a member of the ARBiH?

20 A. General Delic's son, Admir Delic.

21 Q. Anyone else that you remember?

22 A. I can't remember who else was part of the delegation.

23 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you about this security assessment

24 concerning the phone line.

25 What steps, if any, did you take to make this security assessment

Page 8246

1 concerning the phone line while you were in Malaysia?

2 A. Since the lines were open lines, we did not make contact with

3 Sarajevo or any other centres in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Other than that, we

4 didn't have portable phones or satellite phone that would enable to us

5 establish safer connections.

6 Q. Where did you stay in Malaysia when you were there?

7 A. We were accommodated in a hotel that I can't remember in Kuala

8 Lumpur. I know we were in Kuala Lumpur.

9 Q. Let's for the moment -- let's leave Malaysia behind us.

10 When you were travelling with General Delic in Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, what type of security assessments did you make concerning

12 communication systems? We'll start with communication systems in

13 general.

14 A. I don't know which communication systems you have in mind. Is it

15 telephone systems, radio relay systems? What exactly are you referring

16 to?

17 Q. Let's start with telephone systems. What steps did you take as

18 General Delic's body-guard to make security assessments concerning

19 telephone lines that General Delic might have used?

20 A. The telephone lines -- well, the telephone lines were pretty bad.

21 All the information, all the information, the phone-tapping, this was

22 something that we received all the information through the communication

23 service.

24 At that point in time we had a very bad communication system.

25 The telephones and the radio relay devices were outdated and the

Page 8247

1 aggressor of course had devices with which at any point in time they to

2 listen in to the telephones and to the radio relay devices, and they were

3 covering that at all times; and they were eavesdropping.

4 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about any type of satellite phones or

5 mobile phones that General Delic might have had during the course of the

6 war?

7 A. We never had satellite telephones or portable telephone devices.

8 Q. Ever during the course of the war. Is that your testimony, sir?

9 A. Yes, throughout the war we did not have such kind of devices.

10 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about a few of your other duties in the

11 time remaining for us today.

12 You told us -- or in response to a question from my learned

13 colleague from the Defence, you mentioned that you were carrying

14 General Delic's brief case. Do you remember saying that, sir?

15 A. Yes, I said that.

16 Q. Was that something that you normally would have had to do as part

17 of his security detail, carry bags?

18 A. Well, not to carry his bags. I carried his personal brief case,

19 in which he carried his -- well, in which he kept his notebook.

20 Q. Okay. In response to a question I believe from the Presiding

21 Judge, you told us that, at least with respect to this trip to Malaysia,

22 that General Delic did not have any maps in his personal brief case. Is

23 that -- is that your testimony, sir?

24 A. Yes, that was my answer. General Delic did not take any maps

25 with him.

Page 8248

1 Q. Did your duties, sir, entail packing General Delic's personal

2 brief case?

3 A. Yes. I would prepare the things that the commander would take

4 with him.

5 Q. Okay. And how would you know what things the commander wanted to

6 take with him?

7 A. The commander would tell me which things he needed, so I would

8 get that ready.

9 Q. Okay. Now, what were your duties, if any, concerning handling of

10 documents that were addressed to General Delic? Did you have any

11 responsibility concerning documents addressed to General Delic?

12 A. I did not have any contacts with the documents or any

13 documentation that was sent to General Delic.

14 Q. And just so we're then clear, sir, on no occasion, to the best of

15 your recollection, did you ever hand General Delic any documents coming

16 from anyone else?

17 A. No. I personally did not hand to the commander any document.

18 Q. Okay. So you don't know what documents General Delic may have

19 been handed or not, because you weren't involved in personally handed

20 documents to him.

21 A. No, I did not take part in that. I don't know anything about

22 that.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you told us earlier today, Mr. Dedovic, or you've

24 spent actually a good part of your testimony today talking about where

25 you and General Delic travelled to during the course of the war.

Page 8249

1 Did you keep, sir, any kind of diary indicating where you were at

2 various points in time during the war?

3 A. No. I never kept any kind of diary with dates and places that we

4 visited.

5 Q. How about any kind of official log-book? Did you maintain, as

6 part of your duties or responsibilities, any kind of log-book or official

7 document, official document that would have indicated where General Delic

8 was travelling?

9 A. No. I did not have to maintain such things.

10 Q. Why not? There was no requirement?

11 A. That's true, there was no requirement. I did not have to keep

12 any records.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I think this would

14 be a convenient spot perhaps to adjourn for the day.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. We will adjourn for today, to tomorrow at

16 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in the same court.

17 Court adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of

20 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.