1 Thursday, 10 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour, good afternoon
10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The
11 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we have appearances for
13 the day, starting with the Prosecution.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
15 Honour, to my learned friends from the Defence and to everyone in and
16 around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner for the
17 Prosecution assisted by Alma Imamovic-Ivanov or case manager.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, good
20 afternoon to the colleagues from the Office of the Prosecutor, to
21 everyone in and around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and
22 Nicholas Robson for the Defence of General Rasim Delic with legal
23 assistant Lana Deljkic and our intern Tineke Baird.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
25 Good afternoon, sir.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I believe this is your next
3 witness. We can swear him in.
4 Would you please make the declaration, sir.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seats, sir.
8 Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: ALIJA LONCARIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. Vidovic:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Loncaric, as you know I will examining you on
14 behalf of the Defence of General Delic. Since we speak the same language
15 and since everything we say is interpreted, I will kindly ask you to
16 speak as slowly as possible and to leave a short break after my question,
17 so that we do not overlap. It is very important that everything that we
18 say is entered into the transcript.
19 Do you understand?
20 Sir, will you state for the transcript your full name?
21 A. My name is Alija Loncaric.
22 Q. When and where were you born?
23 A. I was born on the 21st of February, 1953, Pridvorica municipality
24 of Gacko, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. Can you please come closer to the microphone so that we can hear
1 you better. Thank you very much.
2 Which schools have you finished?
3 A. I've completed the school for economics.
4 Q. What were you doing before the war?
5 A. I worked in the motor company Famos Sarajevo as a dispatcher.
6 Q. Before the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, did -- had you had any
7 sort of military education?
8 A. No, none.
9 Q. Were you a member of any political party before the war in
10 Sarajevo -- Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. Yes. I was a member of the Party for Democratic Action.
12 Q. And what is the acronym under which this party is known?
13 A. SDA.
14 Q. Have you heard of an organisation called Patriotic League?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. Can you briefly explain what sort of an organisation that is.
17 A. The Patriotic League is an organisation which gathered
18 individuals and groups that were getting ready for defending themselves
19 against the aggressors from the Republic of Serbian Montenegro. The
20 organisation came into being within the Party for Democratic Action
21 which, for the month of July was called the Crisis Staff and in the month
22 of July, it was styled the Patriotic League.
23 Q. You mentioned the month of July. Can you tell which year that
25 A. 1991.
1 Q. Thank you. Were you a member of the Patriotic League or not?
2 A. Yes, I was a member of the Patriotic League.
3 Q. What sort of significance, if any, the Patriotic League had
4 during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
5 A. The Patriotic League had a great significance and influence in --
6 during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina because it was from the ranks of the
7 Patriotic League that many individuals held important position,
8 Sefer Halilovic was Chief of Staff, Kalisovic [phoen] was the head of the
9 education administration, Mustafa --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.
11 A. Was the corps commander and later on he was on the head of the
12 security administration Fikret Bilajac was in the ministry, the deputy of
13 defence minister, Munib Mesic was a member of the Patriotic League, then
14 the chief of the operations centre --
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. The interpreter is signaling to us that the -- not all the names
17 were reflected in the transcript. Can we take this slowly please.
18 You mentioned Sefer Halilovic as the Chief of Staff and that was
19 entered in the transcript. Can you now please repeat but slowly and if
20 you could come closer to the microphones, the names you referred one by
22 A. Kemo Karisik, chief of the administration for education.
23 Q. Can you please spell it out?
24 A. K-E-M-O K-A-R-I-S-I-K.
25 Q. Thank you, who was next?
1 A. Mustafa Hajrulohovic, aka Talijan, commander of the 1st Corps
2 later to become the chief of the intelligence administration.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. Munib Bisic, deputy defence minister. Suljo Zicrovic.
5 Q. Can you spell that name out, please.
6 A. S-U-L-J-O Z-I-C-R-O-V-I-C, he was the chief of the operations
7 centre of the staff of the Supreme Command.
8 Q. Something else was entered into the transcript other than what
9 you said. Can you repeat the last name?
10 A. Zicro Suljevic.
11 Q. Can you now spell it out, please?
12 A. Z-I-C-R-O S-U-L-J-E-V-I-C.
13 Q. Thank you. And what was his function?
14 A. The chief of the operations centre.
15 Q. Very well. You said he was the chief of what?
16 A. The operations centre.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you now briefly explain your career in the
18 service during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 A. At the beginning of the war, I was in the operations centre with
20 Sefer Halilovic and the others who were members of the Patriotic League.
21 When Sefer Halilovic was appointed the Chief of Staff, I became the head
22 of office of his staff. And I held that position until early October of
24 Next, I went to the logistics administration of the General Staff
25 where I discharged my duties until August 1993. At that point,
1 Sulejman Vranj became the chief of the administration, and I was
2 transferred from logistics to the personnel administration, to the
3 position of the chief of the section for education, decorations and
4 citations, which was later to become the department for education,
5 decorations and citations.
6 In that department, I remained performing my duties until my
7 retirement in 2000, and I retired with the rank of brigadier.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you come to know an individual by the name of
9 Sakib Mahmuljin?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Please tell us when and where you met that individual?
12 A. I met him in the earlier days in the month of April 1992 when the
13 war broke out. We were working in the operations centre together. When
14 I became Sefer Halilovic's head of office, Sakib Mahmuljin became
15 secretary in the office. I left that post with Sefer, I said in early
16 October 1992, and Sakib Mahmuljin continued working in Sefer Halilovic's
17 office on that same post I referred to earlier.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit
20 270, please.
21 Q. Before this document appears on the screen, let me ask you this:
22 After you left Sefer Halilovic's office, did you maintain your contacts
23 with Sakib Mahmuljin?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Exhibit 270, for the record, this is the document of the staff of
1 the Supreme Command dated the 15th of June, 1993, and the document is
2 titled order.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the bottom part of
4 the page, please. Thank you. So that we can see the end of the
5 document. Thank you.
6 Q. This is a rather short document. Can you please read it to
8 A. I have read the document.
9 Q. You told us that you knew Sakib Mahmuljin and that he had
10 contacts with him. According to what you know, was Sakib Mahmuljin the
11 head of office of the General Rasim Delic at any point in time?
12 A. Sakib Mahmuljin was never his head of office. I'm familiar with
13 this order, and the initials RK/DK mean that Rasim Mekic was the author
14 of the document. As Sefer's cabinet underwent attrition because there
15 was a new appointment for the commander, Sefer Halilovic could no longer
16 afford to have a head of office and this order states that
17 Sakib Mahmuljin should be transferred to become the head of office of
18 General Rasim Delic. However, this order was never implemented.
19 Murat Softic became Mr. Delic' head of office.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you ever come to know what the background of this
21 order was and why it was not implemented?
22 A. I spoke to Sakib Mahmuljin and, on one occasion, he told me that
23 he wouldn't have dealings with Delic because he had his family outside of
24 Sarajevo in the Zenica area and that he would rather be with his family,
25 and that because of that, he went to see Mr. Izetbegovic relayed to him
1 his request, and his request was granted by Mr. Izetbegovic. Thus, Sakib
2 Mahmuljin went out to the Zenica area.
3 Q. When you say Mr. Izetbegovic, can you tell us what his function
5 A. Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was the president of the Presidency of
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document can be removed now.
9 Q. Let me ask you this: What influence, if anything, did the fact
10 that you should become the head of office of the Chief of Staff of the
11 Supreme Command, and I'm referring to Mr. Halilovic, have the fact that
12 you didn't have any military experience, what bearing did it half?
13 A. I was a member of the town council of the SDA party in Sarajevo
14 and I was a member of the Patriotic League. I was together with
15 Sefer Halilovic as of November 1991, and I knew him well. I was also on
16 very good terms of the president of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, as
17 well as with other members of the party. It was for that reason that I
18 was trusted by Sefer Halilovic and was able to take up the position,
19 because that was what mattered the most in those days, trust.
20 Q. Thank you. You said that you were on good terms with
21 President Izetbegovic. How did you come to meet President Izetbegovic?
22 A. I knew President Izetbegovic from the time when the SDA party had
23 its electoral campaign and we attended some meetings, gatherings
24 together. We met there, and this went on like that until the party won
25 in the election.
1 Afterwards, I had opportunity to frequently see
2 President Izetbegovic in an office that was on the premises of the party
3 offices. This was an office that we had as the Patriotic League and
4 Mr. Izetbegovic used to come there, and we would inform him on the events
5 and what it was that we were preparing so that we knew him well.
6 Q. Thank you. For a while, you worked in the cabinet or in the
7 office of Sefer Halilovic. What was your view of the organisation of the
8 army, the level of organisation of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as
9 perceived from where you were at the time, in the office of
10 Sefer Halilovic?
11 A. The degree of organisation of the army was very bad, low. What
12 it meant was that there were individual groups of individuals that
13 created units that later turned into brigades. There were daily
14 shellings and sniper fire. There was no water or electricity, no
15 foodstuffs. The army could not be in the barracks. They stayed -- the
16 troop, they stayed at home, so we didn't have any materiel or technical
17 resources. What we did have, what armaments we did have were on the
18 front lines and when people were relieved on the front lines they would
19 take their weapons home with them so that the organisation of the army
20 was very poor at this time, if any. It was practically non-existent.
21 Q. You mentioned at one point that these were groups that sort of
22 grass root the groups that organised themselves and then later became
23 brigades. What I would like to ask you is this: Before -- what was
24 established first in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Brigades or
1 A. Brigades were established first and then the corps.
2 Q. Did you -- were you able to observe how this affected the
3 functioning of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the later days, in
4 latter days, if any, because you were in logistics of the Main Staff at
5 the time?
6 A. It functioned very poorly. And for several reasons. There were
7 groups, units that were formed and then they turned into brigades. They
8 selected commanders from among their own ranks. There were some that
9 were very unethical, there were criminals among them and then you had, at
10 one point in time you had the corps that were organised, and there were
11 commanders who were from the former army, and this -- and this and when
12 on up to the end of the war between those two categories.
13 So you had on the one hand these self-organised elements and on
14 the other hand you had educated men who were up to the level of the
15 General Staff. The animosity between them went on throughout the war.
16 There was disrespect, or, rather, at grass roots in the units there was
17 no proper respect for the commands or the Main Staff, main command.
18 Q. Thank you. We are discussing 1992/1993. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In 1992 and 1993, according to your knowledge, what was the
21 influence of the Main Staff on personnel selection outside of Sarajevo,
22 if there was any influence?
23 A. There was none, and it was impossible because we lived in
24 Sarajevo, we were surrounded. You couldn't leave the city. There was no
25 communication; that's one. Two, the units had already been established
1 before the Main Staff. They already existed. They appointed commanders
2 from amongst themselves or these were local war lords, sometimes party
3 leaders, and even some religious leaders so that there was no opportunity
4 or possibility to command and control these units from Sarajevo.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the period when General Delic became
6 the chief of the Main Staff?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember when this was?
9 A. It was in the beginning of -- of June 1993.
10 Q. Were you familiar with the situation in the Main Staff at that
12 A. Yes, I was. I knew the situation in the Main Staff throughout
13 the war. I was a member of the party, I was also in the town board of
14 the party. I was in the staff -- there were men from the Patriotic
15 League who were appointed to various duties throughout the staff so that
16 I was well-informed throughout this period.
17 Q. So you were -- you were employed or you worked at the Main Staff
18 throughout 1993, you told us this, in logistics until August and ...
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
20 portion of his answer.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I asked you about -- in my previous question I asked you whether
24 you worked at the Main Staff throughout 1993 up until August 1993, but
25 your reply was not recorded.
1 A. I was in the Main Staff in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1994 [as
2 interpreted] in the logistics administration or personnel administration,
3 but this was all within the Main Staff.
4 Q. Thank you. I apologise, but this did not enter the transcript,
5 Mr. Loncaric.
6 Would you please just slow down a bit, because it is impossible
7 to record everything you say, because you're speaking too fast,
8 Mr. Loncaric.
9 My last question was, what knowledge, if any, you had about the
10 reception that General Delic received when he came to the Main Staff by
11 the other members of the Main Staff. So could you please answer that
12 question now.
13 A. Mr. Delic was not well received by most members of the
14 Main Staff, especially those members who were members of the Patriotic
16 Q. Why was this so? Could you tell us?
17 A. Yes, I can. The men from the Patriotic League were all unified,
18 and they worked at the Main Staff. They were -- they worked as one.
19 Mr. Delic, when he was appointed for the army commander, we did not know
20 much about him. We didn't know anything about him. And then there were
21 rumours that he had arrived late, that he had been captured by the
22 Green Berets so there were different rumours and we expected that the
23 commander would be someone from the ranks of the Patriotic League. Since
24 this did not happen, we did not accept him gladly.
25 On the other hand, we also had information that Stjepan Siber
1 proposed Mr. Delic for this position, and this came from the Territorial
2 Defence. And there was always a clash between the Patriotic League and
3 the Territorial Defence about who it was that really organised the
4 defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
5 Q. Could you tell us what nationality was Stjepan Siber?
6 A. Stjepan Siber was a Croat, I think that he declared to be a
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina Croat.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now move to
9 closed session and I would like the witness to see document D941 -- or,
10 rather, can we move to private session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 8322-8326 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. You explained to us that in August 1993 you started working in
7 the personnel administration. From that position you held in the
8 personnel administration, were you in a position to see how the command
9 and control system worked, given the different relations within the
10 Main Staff?
11 A. The command and control system could not function at all. If you
12 have two opposed camps, then that makes it quite impossible for an entity
13 to work.
14 Q. Can you give us an illustration of what you mean and what you
15 base your inference on?
16 A. I will explain this to you by relay to go you one detail. May I
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I will take the following example. When Mr. Delic signed the
20 order whereby Asim Dzambasovic should be appointed to the operations
21 centre and Zicro Suljevic should retire. However, the order was never
22 implemented, because Zicro Suljevic went to see Mr. Izetbegovic and
23 requested that he not be retired but that he be kept on the position he
25 He enjoyed the support of others who were on good terms with
1 Mr. Izetbegovic so that Mr. Dzambasovic showed up for his new duty but
2 never took it up and never did that job. Subsequently, pursuant to an
3 order Dzambasovic was assigned to the forward command post at Kakanj. In
4 other words, the duty to which he was assigned by Delic, he never took
6 Q. And was he assigned to any other duty within the operations
7 centre; do you recall?
8 A. Yes, I do recall. Dzambasovic was later on appointed as deputy,
9 but again Mr. Suljevic and others who were working in the operations
10 centre refused to take him on for the well-known reasons for the views
11 that members of the Patriotic League held with regard to the individuals
12 who came at a later date.
13 Q. You mentioned other individuals whose appointments were
14 discussed, namely Mustafa Polutak and you just mentioned
15 Asim Dzambasovic?
16 A. I also mentioned the order that was not implemented which had to
17 do with the appointment of Mahmuljin Sakib as chief.
18 Q. Very well. But I'm inquiring now about the two individuals we
19 were just discussing in this context. Mustafa Polutak and
20 Asim Dzambasovic. Who were these individuals before the war?
21 A. They were members of the JNA and had undergone military training,
22 precisely for these jobs.
23 Q. Thank you. I would now like to deal with a different topic. But
24 before that, let me ask you this: What was your understanding of the
25 situation as to why these two individuals were not accepted by members of
1 the Main Staff, including Zicro Suljevic?
2 A. They were not accepted precisely because it was Mr. Delic who had
3 ordered their appointment. At that time people did not have any respect
4 for him, including myself. We had respect and we will the support of
5 President Izetbegovic and that is why we were able to insist this those
6 views of ours.
7 Q. And what did Mr. Delic do before the war?
8 A. He was a member of the JNA. He was an officer of the JNA and the
9 information we had said that he was one of the best schooled and trained
10 officers of the JNA.
11 Q. I will now move to a different topic.
12 You told us that by August 1993 up until the end of the war, you
13 worked in the personnel administration of the staff of the Supreme
14 Command. Who headed the administration at the time?
15 A. We're discussing the period through to the month of June until
16 Delic's appointment. The administration for personnel and another
17 administration were one, and Avdo Kajavic [phoen] headed that
18 administration. When Mr. Delic took up his position as commander, the
19 two administration again split into two --
20 Q. Can I ask you to pause there. Can you please repeat the name of
21 the individual who headed that administration?
22 A. Avdo Kajavic was the head of the administration.
23 Q. Very well. Can you please continue?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you're
25 saying, sir, that administration for personnel and another administration
1 were one. What was the other administration. This is how your
2 transcribed on the transcript.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The administration for ORMB,
4 organisation and mobilisation. ORMB.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed
6 Madam Vidovic.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: We need to understand from the witness, and you
8 can ask him that question, what were really the dividing lines between
9 those who were recruited from the old army and through the Territorial
10 Defence, on the one hand, and then the Patriotic League on the on the
11 other hand. Was it because of politics of the old army's communist
12 background or was it military training or was it understanding of how
13 Bosnia should are saved or where did the dividing lines go really. Did
14 the members of the Patriotic League question the military ability and
15 strength of the old members or ...
16 What were the dividing lines?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the problem was not to
18 be a member of the Patriotic League and come from the former army. If
19 they -- if they joined the defence of the country on time. I mentioned
20 Kajavic Avdo, for instance; Zicro Suljevic, Rifat Bilajac, Kemo Karisik,
21 Mustafa Hajrulohovic, Talijan, Vahid Karavelic, and I can name 100 people
22 or so, but all these men came back before the war started. In other
23 words, the problem was not in communist or any other ideology the only
24 problem was the moment they realized they should join the defence of the
25 country. All these other men, officers of the former army, came to
1 Bosnia when there was nowhere else they could go when the barracks in
2 Sarajevo were disbanded and they could not join the other side, because
3 they weren't accepted there.
4 So in the situation in Sarajevo was such that even in May, there
5 were people leaving the barracks, but between April and May, two or three
6 months elapsed; April was already a wartime month.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if I understand you correctly, it was
8 basically a question of loyalty. Those who stood up for the country at
9 once they were within the sympathy of the Patriotic League, and those who
10 hesitated and only joined later on were looked down upon.
11 Is that how we should understand this?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your understanding is correct,
13 except in the first part of what you said, Your Honour. There were
14 members of the Yugoslav People's Army who joined the Patriotic League as
15 early as -- in July 1991. One such person is Sulejman Vranj this mean
16 there is were still seven or eight months before the war would break out.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: But this person that you mentioned, he would be
18 respected, would he not, for having stood up quickly and -- so even if he
19 came from the old army he would be enjoying the respect of the Patriotic
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, all those who
22 joined up earlier, there were hundreds of those.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Before the question was asked by the Honourable Judge, we were
25 discussing the administration itself. You mentioned that it was split
1 into two and you mentioned that of Avdo Kajavic had been before the split
2 happened that he was the head of the entire administration.
3 Now what happened when General Delic was appointed to the
4 Main Staff, if anything with this administration?
5 A. The administration or MOB, organisation, mobilisation, and
6 personnel was split and two new administrations were created so there was
7 the administration for organisation mobilisation with Avdo Kajavic as the
8 chief and the personnel administration was the new administration and at
9 its head was now Sulejman Vranj.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the witness to be
12 shown Exhibit 1273 [as interpreted].
13 Your Honour, my assistant is signalling, I don't know if I made
14 an error, but the number of the exhibit is 1283. We have a rather poor
15 copy. We have a clear copy, hard copy, and perhaps we can have the
16 assistance of the usher to show this copy to our colleagues from the
17 Prosecution and then present it to the witness. Thank you.
18 For the record, let me say that this is a document from the
19 Main Staff of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The personnel and
20 legal administration, the document is dated 28 August 1995, and entitled
21 opinion on engagement of foreign citizens.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, just before you go -- are you sure
23 this is an exhibit already?
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was a
25 bar table document, a bar table exhibit.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll down the
3 document a bit, so that we can see the signature. And you will be given
4 sufficient time to take a thorough look at this document, Witness.
5 Can we just see the signature on the document? Please scroll it
6 down. Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Loncaric, do you recognise this signature?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us who signed this document?
10 A. It was signed by Sulejman Vranj. He was my boss.
11 Q. I would like to quote a small portion of this document to you,
12 the second paragraph where it is stated:
13 "Therefore, foreign citizens can be engaged as members of the
14 RBiH army provided that there is no founded suspicion that they
15 participated or assisted in the aggression against the Republic of Bosnia
16 and Herzegovina and that they first make a written statement that they
17 voluntarily wish to join the BH army.
18 "Before engagement of each non-citizen of the Republic of Bosnia
19 and Herzegovina, it is necessary to make security checks and try to find
20 the actual reasons for their voluntary joining the BH army."
21 Could you please, if you can, comment on this document? Do you
22 know anything about it?
23 A. Yes, I do and the document is accurate. In fact, that is the way
24 things have to be done the way it is written here.
25 Q. What do you mean by saying the document is accurate? The
1 administration you worked for, did it write such instructions?
2 A. Yes, it did write instructions, including this one, which is
3 addressed to the corps.
4 Q. Is this document an exception or did you send several such
5 instructions to your recollection?
6 A. As far as I remember, there were several instructions concerning
7 the engagement of foreign citizens or aliens.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours can this document be
10 assigned an exhibit number? Oh, I apologise, it is already in evidence.
11 Q. Let me ask you several more questions before the break.
12 You said that you worked in the personnel administration as of
13 August 1993. In what way was the personnel administration organised?
14 A. The personal unit administration comprised two departments and
15 one independent section.
16 Q. Which departments were those?
17 A. The first one was the department for personnel affairs; the
18 second department was the one I worked for, for education, decorations
19 and citations; and the third independent section was the section of legal
20 affairs, and that's the section which authored this document. The person
21 is Sakib Ibrahimovic [phoen].
22 Q. Thank you for the additional explanation in relation to this
23 document; namely, Exhibit 1283.
24 Can you now describe the scope of work of your department; that
25 is to say, the department for education, decorations and citations. I
1 will, however, appeal to you again to speak slowly.
2 A. The department for education, decorations and citations that I
3 was the head of only maintained records when it came to education. We
4 did not have scores. We had the wartime officer's school in Zenica, but
5 the staff there was within the purview of the education administration.
6 Our job was only to maintain records.
7 When it came to decorations and citations, we received from the
8 corps various proposals for decorations, citations and incentives, which
9 would be processed by my department, or, rather, by me personally, and at
10 the end of this procedure, once decisions were made on the awarding of
11 citations and incentives, I took the documents to the commander for his
13 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the awarding of incentives and
14 citations. Was this in any way regulated?
15 A. Yes. There were the rules on awarding citations and incentives.
16 The term used in the department, the decorations themselves, they were
17 within the purview of the Presidency, which was entitled to award these.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you explain these matters to us more closely,
19 since we are not privy to them. Is there a difference between
20 decorations, citations and incentives? Can you explain that?
21 A. Yes, I can and I will. Decorations were of the highest rank.
22 Q. Is there a difference or not?
23 A. There is an difference between decorations, citations and
24 incentives. These are three categories of awards.
25 Q. Very well. Can you tell us where the difference lies now?
1 A. The decorations are the highest awards and were awarded by the
3 Citations and incentives lay within the purview of the commander.
4 Decorations were awards of higher significance than incentives.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Or rather, interpreter's correction, citations
6 were of a higher rank than incentives --
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you tell what you say incentives are?
9 A. The golden lily, the green coat of arms, the lily of
10 thankfulness, and the pluck of the armed forces as it was called, I
11 believe, and the incentives were to be away, absent on -- as on awarded
12 leave, honourable mention, stuff like that.
13 Q. Very well. Can you tell us now what sort of procedure applied
14 for awarding citations and incentives?
15 A. Citations and incentives were normally awarded on the days that
16 were the anniversaries of the corps, proposals would be sent to the
17 corps, the corps would then process them, and then send them back to the
18 staff, or, rather, to the personnel administration and to my department
19 within that administration.
20 Q. Thank you?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to stop
22 here. I believe it is a time for a break and I will moving to a document
23 that might take more than two or three minutes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll use part of the remaining time just to get a
25 little clarification.
1 Sir, did there come a time when members or former members of the
2 Patriotic League respected Rasim Delic and other former members of the
3 JNA, and vice versa?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the members of the
5 Patriotic League did not accept Rasim Delic or respect him as they did
6 not other members of the Main Staff who were former JNA officers and who
7 I have to repeat, joined the defence effort at a later stage.
8 Sakib Mahmuljin joined this effort in the month of April, and he was
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understood that. Hence my question. Maybe my
11 question was not properly accepted. I accept that that was the position.
12 My question is as time went on, did relations improve between these two
13 cliques such that there was mutual respect between former members of the
14 of the Patriotic League and former members of the JNA and the TO. Did
15 peace ever come about or did it stay like this until the end of the war?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Peace did come about, but to a
17 lesser extent and only from some individuals. The relations remained as
18 they were throughout the war and to this day.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: At about what time did this apparent peace come
20 about? And -- yes.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Peace, if we can call it peace,
22 what I mean is the fact that some former members of the JNA were accepted
23 came about at the end of the war, after the war. When the war was over,
24 some rapprochement could be noticed but it was again on individual basis.
25 Some individuals were accepted, not all of them and this remains true to
1 this day. Such are still the relations between us, members of the
2 Patriotic League and the former JNA officers.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to ask you a personal question, and I
4 don't meant to embarrass you, but did there come a time when you
5 personally respected General Delic.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did that come about?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At some point after the war.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Just before we go, what made you
10 change your mind? If you don't want to share it, you can refuse to tell
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
13 At the point in time when he took up his duties, I didn't know
14 anything about him. I knew that he was from the former JNA and that was
15 the extent of it.
16 However when the war was over there was more time to reflect on
17 certain matters and more time to socialize with certain persons, and I
18 had occasion to see that this was a good, honest man, who was very
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for your candidure.
21 We will take a break and come back at 4.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 111.
2 For the record, this is a proposal from the 3rd Corps command,
3 for condemnations and incentives dated 10 November 1995, and --
4 Q. Witness, would you please take a good look at page 1. We can see
5 the top of the page.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the top of both
7 version, please. Perhaps you can scroll up the Bosnian version as well.
8 Yes, that's how it should be. Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, could you just tell us, are there any indications that
10 this is an encrypted document on this first page?
11 A. I can't find any of that. I don't see it.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 6 of
14 the Bosnian and page 7 of the English version.
15 Q. Does this document bear a signature?
16 A. No.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll down the
18 English version, although you can also see it from the Bosnian version.
19 Thank you.
20 And now can we see page 2 of both versions.
21 Q. Would you please take a look at this page. Let me just ask you,
22 is this a document that resembles an official document, as far as you
23 know, what these documents should look like?
24 A. No, because I see that there were some interventions. Something
25 was handwritten on it and revised.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see the next page.
3 Q. Do you see anything here that you can comment on?
4 A. Yes. I see -- I think this is a draft version because I see
5 names that are indicated there and then crossed out, scratched.
6 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you receive documents of this type with notes like this in
9 your administration?
10 A. No, we did not. A document had to be a clean version of a
11 document without any changes to it.
12 Q. Thank you. We can remove the document now. Thank you.
13 You mentioned before the break that you were in the personnel
14 administration, or, rather, in the department where you were working,
15 that you received proposals for citations and incentives from corps
16 commands. Can you describe briefly the role of the corps in this
17 procedure, in the procedure of awarding citations and incentives, on the
18 one hand, so what was the role of the corps in that; and on the other
19 hand, the role of the personnel administration. Would you start with the
20 corps please, step by step. And please take your time.
21 A. The corpses received proposals from the units within those corps.
22 When they received a document from a unit they processed it and then
23 forward the processed document to the personnel administration, or,
24 rather, to my department directly, which I would then receive. This
25 would be a document with proposals for awards of citations and incentives
1 and if those proposals were in agreement with the rules on awarding
2 citations and incentives then I would process this and prepare orders,
3 and such orders would then be taken by me to the commander.
4 Q. What was the role or the duty of the corps in preparing these
5 proposals and -- as opposed to that of the administration?
6 A. The corps had the responsibility to prepare the documents
7 according to the rules, and once they've prepared them to forward them to
8 us. And if they had done so, if they had prepared them in keeping with
9 the rules, and I believe they did, I would receive such proposals,
10 process them, I would usually not interfere with the documents. I
11 wouldn't add anything or take anything away from them once those
12 documents were prepared in a proper manner.
13 Q. And whose responsibility was it to check whether a person met the
14 criteria as provided for in the rules, whether this person may have had a
15 criminal record or a criminal -- or whether there was a person who could
16 be awarded a citation?
17 A. This was the obligation of the corps. It was not up to us to
18 check the individuals, every individual who was proposed, because we did
19 not receive just individual names. We would receive thousands of
20 proposals, thousands of names. So that this was the responsibility of
21 the unit or the corps to check the background of any or all of these
22 individuals who are proposed for citations. It was not our duty.
23 Q. So you said that you checked whether the proposals were in
24 keeping with the rules. Could you just describe or explain to us what
25 exactly this meant? What is it you had to verify. You receive a list
1 and then what do you do?
2 A. Well, there was -- there were the rules where it was provided for
3 every citation and incentive what the individual would have had to
4 accomplish in order to be proposed for this citation or incentive. Then,
5 we would check and see the reasons that were provided by the corps for
6 awarding a certain citation for -- to a certain individual and if it was
7 in keeping with the rules, we would leave it there. If not, we would
8 remove it.
9 Q. All right. Can you now describe the procedure. You said that
10 you would take the document to the appropriate person for signature. Can
11 you tell us what the procedure -- the proper procedure was. You
12 mentioned that you would take this to the commander. Who was authorised
13 to sign these orders for citations and incentives, as well as all other
14 documents that your department produced?
15 A. The -- the authorised person was the commander.
16 Q. All right. This was -- was this as a principle or as a rule or
17 was he always the one who would sign such documents?
18 A. Well, it wasn't always the case because we were in a state of war
19 and often the commander was not in Sarajevo. He would be away for
20 negotiations or something like that, and if the commander was not there,
21 then I would take it to my boss, who, however, often was also not there,
22 and my boss was Vranj at this time, in which case I would put the first
23 and last name and then put an SR before that, meaning signed for, and
24 such orders I would then forward on. There were other documents, there
25 were -- there was a huge number of documents, because if a corps numbered
1 30.000 men and if only one per cent of those men were proposed for these
2 citations that would mean there would be 3.000 names. Sometimes there
3 were cases where there were 300 cases, 300 proposals, and signatures that
4 were needed.
5 Q. All right. Would you --
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown, please,
7 Exhibit 570.
8 For the record, I will say that this a Supreme Command Staff
9 document, dated 25th of July, 1994, entitled proposal for promotion into
10 ranks and this is submitted to -- and then the addressee follows.
11 Can we just see the first page of the document and then if we
12 could scroll it down a bit, so we can see both versions -- the bottom of
13 the documents in both versions and then I would request to be shown the
14 last page of the document. Thank you. The last page, please.
15 Q. Can you recognise the signature on this document?
16 A. Yes, this is General Vranj's signature and the document was
17 prepared by Rasim Mekic and then /Damir Kalmar.
18 Q. Thank you. Would you please repeat the name for the RM?
19 A. Yes. This is Rasim, R-A-S-I-M; Mekic, M-E-K-I-C, and the second
20 name is Damir, D-A-M-I-R; Kalmar, K-A-L-M-A-R.
21 Q. Thank you. You said that this document was signed by
22 General Vranj. Does that mean that General Delic had the opportunity to
23 see this document? What was the usual practice? Would General Delic
24 have been in a situation to see documents like these?
25 A. General Delic did not see this document. It was signed in his
1 name, and this document was then forwarded to President Izetbegovic where
2 it was signed and where a decree was produced.
3 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a moment ago that you took these
4 documents to General Delic for signing personally. Were you in a
5 position to see what the number of documents that he had to sign was?
6 A. Yes. I also had occasion to see other officers from the
7 administration who were in the waiting-room there and usually I was the
8 one with the greatest number of documents and my documents were usually
9 of an urgent nature because they were urgent, I took them personally to
10 the commander, and I took them into the office, asked for him to sign it,
11 as soon as he did I would take them back because once they were signed
12 there was still work to be done. In order for this to be implemented, I
13 had to order the lilies to be produced and then I had to prepare the
14 plaques that were to be awarded. I had to prepare watches that were
15 going to awarded. So it was not just about signing the documents. It
16 was a lot of work and it always had to be completed within two to three
17 days and if you were late, and you couldn't afford to be late because
18 there would be a celebration of an anniversary of a corps or so on, so
19 this was very urgent. This procedure had to be followed.
20 Q. Thank you. We will come back to this later. Before that, I
21 would like to show you another document and then we'll discuss, talk
22 about the signing later on.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document
24 989. This is an order to improve the implementation of incentives and
25 dated 20 February 1995.
1 Q. Would you please read the first paragraph of this document,
3 And first let me ask you, have you ever seen this document
5 A. Yes. I received this document. I know who authored it. It was
6 prepared in the morale administration. And it was sent to all corps
7 commands and administrations, so I did receive it. And mention is made
8 here of an analysis and errors that were made in this respect.
9 Q. Thank you. Would you now please take a look at page 2 of the
10 document, in both versions.
11 Please see number -- under number 1, under: Order. If we can
12 just scroll the document down a bit. Please read that portion.
13 I'd like to ask you this: Mention is made here of morale
14 departments within corps commands. Tell us, what was the role of morale
15 departments and morale administrations in this process of proposing
17 A. Well, they were the ones who prepared the proposals. They took
18 part in the proposal -- in the preparation of the proposals and then they
19 would -- the corps would send them to us, which means that the
20 administration for morale took part in the preparation of these proposals
21 for awarding commendations, citations and incentives.
22 Q. Are you saying then - I just want to check if I understood you
23 correctly - are you then saying that two administrations actually took
24 part in this process of preparing the proposals for awards? Was it two
1 A. Yes, you understood that well. There were two administrations.
2 Q. Which administrations?
3 A. Morale and personnel administrations.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please have
6 an exhibit number for this document.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit
10 number 1374.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Loncaric, I would like to show you several documents now.
14 Let us first ascertain whether you were the author of these
15 documents, and after I have shown you several of these documents I will
16 ask you to comment upon all of them. I believe that is the most
17 efficient way of going through these documents.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now
19 be shown Exhibit 79.
20 Can we focus on the bottom of the document. That's right.
21 Q. Have you seen this document before?
22 A. Yes. I'm the author of the document. As you can see, it says
23 Alija Loncaric. SP is Senad Pezo and then the initials of the person who
24 typed the document up.
25 Q. It says army commander -- commander army General Rasim Delic, SR.
1 Is that the situation you explained earlier on?
2 A. Yes, in the absence of General Vranj or General Delic, I would
3 produce a document and place the acronym SR, which meant for their behalf
4 and then once the document was processed and sent to the corps it wasn't
5 sent to General Delic but was filed. It remained in the files and to me
6 it meant that it was processed.
7 Q. Was that the ordinary practice?
8 A. Yes, it was the ordinary practice in the absence of both
9 General Delic and General Vranj had to keep the matters moving and could
10 not wait for them to come back.
11 Q. Let's go back to the document. It says here: Silver shield, war
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to page 1, so
14 Their Honours can follow.
15 Q. It says, War citation or commendation, silver shield and earlier
16 on when were talking about citations you said that silver shield was one
17 of them but that's not a decoration, is it?
18 A. No it is not a decoration.
19 Q. Witness I will now ask you to read for us what is written
20 underneath, I higher award ...
21 A. War citation silver shield for the members -- for the following
22 members of the BH army and their names are listed here.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to draw
24 your attention to the errors in the translation of these documents.
25 These were documents included in or tendered into evidence by the
1 Prosecution where, instead of a citation, the awards, actions dated as
2 decorations, and I believe the witness has drawn your attention to the
3 difference between the types of awards, and I would like the translation
4 to be rectified accordingly by the Prosecutor. If that could be done by
5 the OTP, and if they could also ensure that it is uploaded into the
6 system again.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before Mr. Neuner gets the floor, I would just
9 point to something that struck my mind on page 2 of the English version,
10 it would seem that General Delic's signature was put there with his own
11 hand, and that is exactly contrary to what I understood to be the meaning
12 of SR.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. General Rasim
14 Delic did not sign the document. That's why we can't see his signature.
15 Wherever he sings it, you can see his signature. In cases such as this
16 one, I would place this acronym SR, which stands for in his own hand, and
17 then I just file the document, and carry the procedure further.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpretation says SR means in his own hand,
19 or does it mean on his behalf.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not on his behalf. Where it is
21 written army general, it is normally placed in inverted comas and then
22 beneath that you would have the word "za 4," written and then somebody
23 would sign for him. Instead in this case, I only write SR next to his
24 name which actually means signed by him in person, and I put this down
25 and then carry the procedure forward on the basis of this because it's a
1 matter of an urgency.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I --
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. The
4 transcript does not reflect what he says. I see you don't understand
5 this. At no point did the witness say that he was signing the document
6 for the General. Rather, the SR in his own hand, meant I am signing this
7 in person. This is what it has the meaning of. I could grasp by your
8 reactions that something was wrong. I am really unable to follow the
9 interpretation that is being done here.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... because we
11 are getting confused, you know. In his own -- SR meaning in his own
12 hand, meaning your own hand, not his own hand. But it is your hand.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me explain.
14 There is no signature here at all. Mine or Mr. Delic's or
15 anybody else's, because the document is an urgent one, and General Delic
16 is absent as well as General Vranj who can't therefore sign on his
17 behalf. These are urgent matters because units have their anniversaries
18 and the matter cannot wait. In such situations I would write next to his
19 name SR which meant that it wasn't signed by either General Delic, me, or
20 somebody else and the document as such is forwarded into the subsequent
22 I don't know if have I been clear enough now.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... for my --
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, I still have a problem
25 with it. I would like to know exactly what the letters, the two words SR
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two letters stand for in his
3 own hand, which means that the meaning of these two initials is
4 equivalent to him having signed the document in person.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, that's very weird, that
6 you would write in "svojervcno," whilst there's no signature by
7 General Delic. It's -- I don't understand. I still have a doubt.
8 A. May I say something? This was the time of war and we were
9 working under wartime circumstances in times of peace you can discuss and
10 debate whether he signed this or not. These were times of war we have a
11 urgent meeting of the 3rd Corps and if General Delic is supposed to be
12 absent for the following ten days I have to resort to this measure and
13 put down SR as if he signed it personally, take it upon my own
14 responsibility in order for the matters to be resolved.
15 I don't know if I've been clear enough now.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, does this mean that when
17 General Delic would be absent, there was nobody among his deputies, the
18 people who were supposed to act when he was not there, nobody who would
19 be authorised to sign a document in his stead. I don't understand,
20 because you see that would mean it was always upon the responsibility of
21 General Delic and that nobody would be authorised to replace him.
22 Have you to explain this to me, in light of this -- the absence
23 of a signature here on this document.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is true that there is no
25 signature, but because this document was a matter of urgency where the
1 anniversary of the 3rd Corps had to be celebrated I would place the
2 letters SR next to his name. This was less painful, because the document
3 could be processed, and the anniversary could be celebrated than me doing
4 nothing and nothing being done.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I can understand that, but the
6 things I don't understand is there was nobody else who would have been
7 authorised to sign instead of General Delic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that Sulejman Vranj was
9 authorised to sign the documents in the commander's absence. Now, if
10 both of them were absent, I don't know if there was somebody else, a
11 third individual, that the commander may have authorised to do so.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, does this mean that the General saw the document or not?
15 A. No, as I said, no, I would send the document to such, to the
16 units concerned, and file a copy.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.
19 MR. MUNDIS: [Previous translation continues] ... briefly lengthy
20 discussion, and we will bring this translation back to CLSS. As I just
21 mentioned CLSS is our professional translation service. I believe they
22 have looked up the word S.R. and we will ask them to revisit the issue
23 especially also with regard to the word decoration which was mentioned by
24 this witness, so we are trying to get a revised version. What this
25 version will be or will look like, this is up for CLSS.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.
2 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was quite concerned
4 to -- this is actually a matter of great concern to me, to hear that it
5 is the CLSS who provides this sort of an interpretation of the document
6 to the Prosecution. How can it be down to the CLSS to give their own
7 interpretation of what SR stands for? It can only be provided by an
8 expert who is knowledgeable about this, and as a result of this, we have
9 such discussions in the courtroom. I believe that the English version
10 should be corrected in order to reflect precisely what is stated in the
11 original. SR and what these words stand for. I don't see why this
12 should have to be translated at all.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why it is like that is because CLSS is the expert
14 translator in this institution, Madam Vidovic. That's the only
15 explanation I can give you and if they have mistranslated, so be it. And
16 the witness has tried to explain to the best of his ability what it
18 But that explains why CLSS translated that. They're given a
19 document to translate. The document is got the letters SR, they
20 translate those letters to mean: In my own hand. What can we do?
21 Nothing. But the witness has told us.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. While we
23 still have this document on our screens -- or, rather, you don't have it
24 in front of you.
25 Q. If do you, can you please look at the introductory part of the
1 document and tell us how it came to be?
2 A. The document was written on the occasion of the third anniversary
3 of the inception of the 3rd Corps on the proposal of the 3rd Corps.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: May I ask you about the relevance of this
6 document. Quite looking aside from the issue of who signed the document,
7 what is the probative value that the Chamber is going to pull out of this
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document
10 that was already admitted into evidence and was tendered by the
11 Prosecution quite a while ago. I suppose the Prosecutor can tell you
12 more about its relevance, but as far as I see it, it goes to show
13 effective control in signing these documents, unless I'm mistaken.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well, for now. We'll probably get back to
15 it. Thank you very much.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the point being made by the Defence is that
18 this document was not signed by General Delic. He has no knowledge of
19 it. There was no -- there was no effective control. That's the point
20 being made by the Defence.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That was not how
24 I understood His Honour Judge Harhoff's question. Perhaps it was again
25 an issue of interpretation. Thank you.
1 Can the witness now be shown Exhibit 827, please.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised this is a confidential document. Can
4 we go into private session.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 8355-8359 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Could we open the window, please. Thank you.
21 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now
23 be shown, please, Exhibit 817.
24 Could we just see the bottom or the end of this document, please?
25 Q. Mr. Loncaric, have you authored this document?
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Tell us, please, did you take this document to be signed?
3 A. Yes, as I did all other documents.
4 Q. A moment ago, speaking about the signing of these documents, you
5 mentioned that if a document was several page document that you would
6 submit it with the last page open where the signature should be placed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell us how long did there signing take. Did the General inspect
9 the documents one by one, or would he just sign them? How did this thing
11 A. General Delic did not have the opportunity either to read or to
12 even look at the documents because there a lot of documents and they were
13 all urgent. The commander signed them. I explained a moment ago how
14 this was done. I brought hundreds of documents, not one or two or five.
15 And had I left it for him to read them, it would take days. So he would
16 just sign them.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, how did he -- did he look at the documents one
18 by one or did you just prepare them and turn to the page where he is
19 supposed to sign them?
20 A. I explained a few moments ago he didn't look at them. I would
21 put the documents on the table or if that wasn't possible on the floor
22 and then I would hand him the documents one by one have him sign them and
23 take it. Frequently he wouldn't even have time to ask me how I was
24 doing. He would be taking a phone call and signing documents at the same
1 Q. Do you know why General Delic did not pay attention to the
2 contents of the documents?
3 A. He didn't pay attention and he didn't even have to, because these
4 were documents produced by the personnel department, by my department,
5 and of course he had to trust this administration or trust me that we
6 would prepare these documents in a proper fashion.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, who would vouch for these documents that were
8 signed by General Delic?
9 A. The administration for personnel, my department.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now remove this document.
12 Q. Now I would like you to see several documents, and I will only
13 ask you to look at them to make sure -- to find out if you are the
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see Exhibit 1134,
16 please. Document 1134, please.
17 For the record let me say this is a Main Staff document of 23rd
18 December 1995. It is entitled order.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, is this an exhibit or a document.
20 The transcript shows both.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's an exhibit, Your Honour.
22 Q. We can see here the document. Tell us, please, have you authored
23 this document?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will show several
2 documents of the same type, and then I will ask for them to be admitted
3 into evidence.
4 Q. Witness, could you please just remember the date on this
5 document, the 23rd December 1995.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see Exhibit 828,
8 I will put the same question.
9 Q. Have you authored this document?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document can now
12 be removed. Let's take a look at Exhibit 829 and just pay attention to
13 the date, the 23rd of December; you saw that. And now let's see 829.
14 Q. Let me ask you again what we are dealing with here is a war
15 citation, not decoration. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you prepare this document?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You say the date, 23rd December 1995. We saw several documents
20 bearing the same date, 23rd December 1995, and for all these documents
21 you confirmed that you were the author.
22 Now, can you please try and remember and explain to us how these
23 documents came to be, or how they were produced. Can you tell us how
24 these documents were produced as far as the El Mujahedin Detachment, a
25 detachment of foreigners is concerned.
1 But, please, take your time, speak slowly so that it can enter
2 into the transcript.
3 A. Yes, I remember. All three documents, I prepared. I was the
4 author. These documents were made on the following basis: After the
5 Dayton Accords, this unit was supposed to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina
6 and we received information from Mr. Izetbegovic, the president, and
7 Sulejman Vranj was in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps, so we
8 had information that they were not prepared to be disarmed easily and
9 cease fighting.
10 Our security services intercepted some of their conversations and
11 we knew that they were not going to do this, that they would continue
12 fighting, so that there was a political role here, political decision was
13 made, and the political intervention, they spoke, the politician spoke
14 with this unit and then Sulejman Vranj brought these documents, these
15 proposals from me to prepare orders --
16 Q. Can we please pause here for a minute, because I see that the
17 transcript does not reflect your words exactly.
18 Did you say that the politicians talked with these units or did
19 you say something else?
20 A. I said that they talked with them and they negotiated with them,
21 they tried to come to an agreement because we couldn't. And it was
22 decided Mr. Izetbegovic called Mr. Sulejman Vranj to come and see him.
23 He went and saw him, and he explained that these men were supposed to be
24 awarded these citations, so that then they could leave the country.
25 With all this, all of this should have been accompanied by
1 reasons for these proposals. However, if we were to follow the rules --
2 however we just received the lists without any reasons, so I asked
3 Sulejman Vranj how am I going to do this? There are no reasons. He said
4 to me this was agreed with the president and he said there is how we
5 should prepare it. And then I prepared these documents in contravention
6 of the rules without any explanations as to what their contribution was.
7 I prepared this document, or these documents, took them to Mr. Delic, he
8 signed them and this was implemented, and I later found out that they --
9 that these men accepted this, and they left the country. Some of them
10 remained, and the unit was disbanded.
11 Q. I would just like to ask you something. How do you know that
12 President Izetbegovic made this decision or that he talked with El
13 Mujahid -- with them, you said. How do you know this? How did you come
14 to learn about this?
15 A. I know that because there is what Mr. Vranj told me when he
16 brought the three documents on the basis of which I was to produce
17 orders. He personally told me that.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, from whom did you learn
19 all these details concerning the fact that they didn't want to go, they
20 wanted to continue fighting. Who gave you all these details?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was General Vranj
22 who told me these details. He was the chief of the administration and he
23 was one of the closest officers and party members to
24 President Alija Izetbegovic and to the entire leadership of the SDA
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, he would have known
2 that directly from the president. General Vranj would have known that
3 directly from the president?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He would have learned that
5 directly from President Izetbegovic, and he did.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
8 questions of this witness.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
10 Just before I ask Mr. Neuner to stand. One point or just one
12 When they refused to stop fighting who were they going to be
13 fighting now that there was no war any longer? There were no soldiers
14 against whom they could fight.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know. That's the sort
16 of explanation I heard from Mr. Vranj, who said that this was stated by
17 President Izetbegovic. Who they wanted to continue their fighting
18 against, I don't know.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Loncaric.
20 Mr. Neuner.
21 Are you thinking you want a break before you started.
22 MR. NEUNER: I could also go on for a few minutes, five minutes,
23 I understand.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Loncaric. I'm Matthias Neuner and I'm
2 appearing here in behalf of the Prosecution. I'm putting a couple of
3 questions to you, and if you don't understand some of these questions
4 please ask me to rephrase them, and I will try to do so.
5 You told us in your testimony that until October 1992 you were
6 chef de cabinet for Mr. Halilovic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I fail to understand who was preceding -- who was succeeding you
9 as the new chef de cabinet for Mr. Halilovic, could you please clarify
11 A. I can tell you that Sadika Omerhodzic aka Dika replaced me.
12 Q. I'm asking this because you mentioned a couple of times in your
13 testimony also Sakib Mahmuljin could you clarify what the position of
14 Mr. Mahmuljin was while Mr. Sadika Alihodzic [sic] was the chef de
16 A. Sakib Mahmuljin was secretary of the Chief of Staff,
17 Sefer Halilovic.
18 Q. So is it fair to say that he was the deputy secretary? Can you
19 just clarify please, the deputy secretary or the deputy chef de cabinet
20 of Mr. Halilovic?
21 A. No. These are two separate functions. Sefer had both the chef
22 de cabinet and a secretary.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witnesses please repeat the last
25 MR. NEUNER: You were asked to repeat your last sentence, please,
2 A. He had by establishment a head of office and a secretary. By
3 establishment he also had a PR person who was Fahro Radoncic, an
4 information officer.
5 Q. Would it help you if I show you an order which might clear the
6 situation? And I would ask that PT6289 be shown, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you will remember the
9 situation when we objected to the tendering of documents through
10 witnesses who were not on the list of the Prosecution evidence. This is
11 one of the documents concerned. I would like my learned friend to
12 clarify what this is about. What the purpose of the document is, whether
13 to impeach the witness or to refresh his memory, in order for me to be
14 able to react in relation to the document and possibly object, in keeping
15 with our objection to such use of documents.
16 Let me repeat: This document has not been on the list of the
17 Prosecution evidence so far.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.
19 MR. NEUNER: I can just state that this document along with a
20 couple of other documents has been communicated to my learned colleagues
21 in advance of today's session. It is correct that this document was not
22 on the Prosecution 65 ter list, but the witness summary which was
23 communicated to us in advance of this witness appearing was referring to
24 the fact that this witness was chef de cabinet and I believe the witness
25 summary even said until summer 1993 and this document so to speak sheds
1 some light who was on that information.
2 We were departing from the information which was given to us in
3 the witness summary and were selecting some documents which were properly
4 communicated to my learned colleagues and a list with these new documents
5 was also communicated to my learned colleagues before the
6 examination-in-chief started today.
7 As a final matter, I just want to say that in the course of the
8 Prosecution's case several hundreds of documents were brought there by
9 the Defence into evidence were admitted without the Prosecution having
10 any prior notice about their existence, and in this case, as I have
11 stated we have disclosed them before this testimony of the witness, and
12 we have also communicated them on our list, exhibit list for this
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learn friend wants you to explain the purpose
15 for which you're tendering the document.
16 MR. NEUNER: The purpose here is I was just dwelling on the
17 position of Mr. Mahmuljin with the witness, and the answer I got is very
18 close to the content of this document, and I'm sure that this witness can
19 explain everything.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to use the document to refresh the
21 witness's memory to impeach the witness or do you want to refresh.
22 MR. NEUNER: Not at all. It's not an impeachment document.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a refreshing of memory.
24 MR. NEUNER: It's simply a refreshing exercise. The witness has
25 stated something which is very close to what is in the document.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. There is urgency that we take our break
2 now. We will come back at quarter to 6.00 and will continue with this
4 Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, Mr. Neuner explained that he wants
8 to use this document to refresh the memory of the witness and that the
9 witness testifies to some things that are in this document.
10 Do you have anything further so say, ma'am?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Neuner.
13 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.
14 Q. Witness, if you could just have a brief look at the document
15 which is in front of you. You find here Mr. Mahmuljin under number 2,
16 and do you agree that Mr. Mahmuljin was appointed in October 1992 to the
17 post of deputy chef de cabinet?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Having worked yourself as chef de cabinet, could you explain to
20 the Chamber what the role, tasks and responsibilities of a deputy chef de
21 cabinet is?
22 A. Your Honours, while I was chef de cabinet, this is not what the
23 establishment structure was like. There was the chef de cabinet, or head
24 of office, and during my time there, there was Sakib Mahmuljin. Now, not
25 in my time. This was the situation after I had left that you had a chef
1 de cabinet and a deputy chef de cabinet.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we understand that. The question is not
3 about the structure of the chef de cabinet. The question is: If you do
4 know do you know what the responsibilities of the deputy chef de cabinet
5 are, or were at the time. If you do know. If there was no deputy chef
6 de cabinet in your time and you don't know, then you don't know.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no deputy at that time,
8 and Sakib Mahmuljin was not a deputy. He was a secretary. That was his
9 post, and I don't know what the duties of a deputy were.
10 MR. NEUNER:
11 Q. Okay. Could you tell me, because I understood your testimony to
12 say that you were in some contact with Mr. Mahmuljin, could you tell me
13 what -- what Mr. Mahmuljin told you what he was doing for
14 Mr. Sefer Halilovic?
15 A. Yes, I can. Mahmuljin dealt with all the correspondence from the
16 office of the Chief of Staff, when it came to visitors and such matters,
17 Madam Sadika dealt with that.
18 Q. Okay. And could you --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry I'm not sure I understand.
20 Now you say Mahmuljin dealt with all correspondence from the
21 office of the Chief of Staff. When it came to visitors and matters,
22 Madam Sadika that dealt with that.
23 Now is it Madam Sadika or Mahmuljin who dealt with these things?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam Sadika had the duty to
25 receive visitors, whereas Mr. Mahmuljin was the one who received
1 correspondence and who answered requests or wrote documents back. This
2 is something that Madam Sadika didn't know how to do.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 MR. NEUNER:
5 Q. So is it fair to say that Mr. Mahmuljin was preparing documents
6 for Mr. Halilovic to work with?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And can you tell me how long did Mr. Mahmuljin remain in that
9 position, as deputy chef de cabinet of Mr. Halilovic?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Mr. Neuner, the witness said he doesn't know
11 anything about the post of deputy. Mr. Mahmuljin was --
12 MR. NEUNER: I will rephrase.
13 Q. Could you tell me how long Mr. Mahmuljin remained in the position
14 of secretary of Mr. Halilovic?
15 A. Yes, I can. Mahmuljin occupied that post until General Delic was
16 appointed commander and when Sefer Halilovic's office was abolished.
17 After that time, he no longer had a secretary, so this was the state of
18 affairs until the month of June 1993.
19 Q. Could you tell me in the early month of 1993 [sic] where was
20 Mr. Mahmuljin located. Was he in Sarajevo or outside Sarajevo?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean January, when I say early month.
22 MR. NEUNER: Yes, from January to June 1993 in the time period
23 when also he was at the service to Mr. Halilovic, as I understood.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry --
25 A. You misunderstood me. You must have misunderstood what I said.
1 I left in October 1992 and not in January 1993.
2 MR. NEUNER:
3 Q. I didn't mean to say that you left in January 1993. I was asking
4 with my last question for the whereabouts of Mr. Mahmuljin in -- let's
5 put it the first six months of 1993. Was Mr. Mahmuljin in the first six
6 months of 1993, located in Sarajevo or outside?
7 A. To my knowledge, he was in Sarajevo, in the period you're
8 referring to. That is to say, between January and June.
9 Q. How many times did you meet Mr. Mahmuljin in this time-period?
10 A. I don't know exactly. Several times.
11 Q. Apart from responding to correspondence which Mr. Halilovic
12 received, do you know what else Mr. Mahmuljin was doing?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Once Rasim Delic assumed the post of commander of the
15 ARBiH, could you tell me where was Mr. Mahmuljin in the second half of
16 1993. Was he again in Sarajevo or somewhere else?
17 A. I can tell you that he was not in Sarajevo. In the second half
18 of 1993, Mr. Mahmuljin was in Zenica.
19 Q. Okay. And what was he doing in Zenica?
20 A. That I don't know.
21 Q. Okay. And in fact, you also don't know what orders, if any,
22 Mr. Delic issued in the second half of 1993 to Mr. Mahmuljin?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You haven't seen a single order, if any is existing?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I want to now come to the time-period when you were in the
2 administration for logistics at the General Staff. And I understood you
3 to say that you were there until August 1993. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was your superior in the administration of logistics at the
7 A. Safet Tihic.
8 Q. And once Mr. Delic was appointed in June 1993 to the post of
9 commander of the ARBiH, to whom did Mr. Safet Tihic report to?
10 A. To Mr. Siber.
11 Q. And Mr. Siber reported to whom?
12 A. It would be only logical that he would report to the commander.
13 Q. You mean Rasim Delic?
14 A. Well, yes. He was the deputy of Rasim Delic.
15 Q. So is it fair to say that until August 1993, when you remained in
16 the logistical administration, there were at least two superiors above
17 you, and the third such superior was then Rasim Delic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So, in fact, did you have any direct dealings until August 1993
20 with Mr. Rasim Delic?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. Is it fair to say that you didn't attend any meetings in the days
23 and weeks to follow Rasim Delic's appointment in June 1993, meetings at
24 which Mr. Delic was present?
25 A. No, I didn't attend any meetings.
1 Q. And you also did not receive any minutes of meetings which were
2 attended by Rasim Delic, which could tell you what was discussed at those
4 A. No.
5 Q. So I want to turn now to the -- to your move to the personnel
7 I understood you to say that sometime in August Mr. Vranj was
8 your superior at this personnel administration. Is this right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When exactly did you move to the personnel administration?
11 A. I think it was in the beginning of August.
12 Q. And can you tell me who Mr. Vranj report to?
13 A. For the most part Mr. Izetbegovic, to the president.
14 Q. Is this -- I was actually asking for the formal chain of
15 reporting. In the formal chain of command, to whom was Mr. Vranj
16 reporting to?
17 A. He should have reported to General Delic.
18 Q. So, in fact, once you moved to the administration for personnel,
19 there was one superior in between you and Rasim Delic, was it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you explained a lot today to us that you, from time to time,
22 went into the room of Rasim Delic and submitted certain documents for his
23 signature. Were these the only occasions when you had direct dealings
24 with Mr. Rasim Delic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So I'm referring to occasions where you had citations, awards
2 with you, as you explained, and you needed a signature from
3 Mr. Rasim Delic. These were the only meetings. Can you confirm that,
4 please, if it's true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You talked a lot about appointments, or proposals for
7 appointments and possible candidates for appointments. Could you tell me
8 within the personnel administration which subunit or subsection was
9 responsible to prepare appointments?
10 A. It was the first section, or the first subunit.
11 Q. What's the name of the first subunit?
12 A. It was the personnel department.
13 Q. And who was in charge of the personnel department in summer 1993?
14 A. It was Mr. Rasim Mekic.
15 Q. And you explained to us that you were in another section and that
16 is the section for decorations, citations. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it fair to say that whenever appointments were to be prepared,
19 that only the section for personnel affairs was involved and not your
21 A. I did not understand your question.
22 Q. You explained to us that you were heading or you were chief of
23 the section for education, decoration and citations. And you explained
24 that there was a second unit headed by Mr. Mekic. This section for
25 personnel affairs.
1 My question to you is: If material documentation for an
2 appointment is being prepared, that this is exclusively in the ambit of
3 the personnel affairs section?
4 A. I will have to explain a bit.
5 In this department -- Rasim Mekic worked in department, but the
6 personnel issues were dealt with by committee because there was me, there
7 was Rasim Mekic, and Salko Polimac; and I have tried to explain -- the
8 whole day I've been explaining this that he was Rasim Mekic was in the
9 period of time when people were know how to do these things. So I was
10 there on the committee. There was Salko Polimac and there was
11 Rasim Mekic.
12 Q. Could you tell me who set up that committee?
13 A. Sulejman Vranj.
14 Q. And if proposals for appointments were coming in, what was the
15 committee doing with it?
16 A. Well, the proposals would be prepared and then we would sit in
17 commission or committee to decide who will be proposed and further for
18 the proposal forwarded to the Presidency. For the promotion into ranks
19 because this would have to be sent to the president. This was within the
20 ambit of the president.
21 Q. So is it fair to say that ultimately the Presidency of RBiH
22 decided about the acceptance of new positions, promotions and ranks?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And can you confirm that Rasim Delic was also member of that
25 expanded Presidency of the RBiH during the war?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I want to move on to --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you move on, Mr. Neuner what did you want
4 us to do with PT6289.
5 MR. NEUNER: I believe that the witness has -- I would ask that
6 the document be admitted, if it is possible. Yeah, I see the reaction,
7 your colleague. I'm not seeking to tender this document into evidence.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
9 MR. NEUNER: I wouldn't have brought it up.
10 Q. I wanted to ask you briefly for visits outside Sarajevo. Is it
11 correct that once during the war you went outside Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes. Not only once, on several occasions.
13 Q. Could you tell me from June 1993 onwards, on how many occasions
14 did you go outside Sarajevo?
15 A. On four occasions.
16 Q. Okay.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand what we mean by going out of
19 You mean if you just decide to go to Zenica and come back the
20 same day or go out of Sarajevo to stay there for sometime holding your
21 post there.
22 What is actually the question, Mr. Neuner?
23 MR. NEUNER:
24 Q. Could you explain me how you could get out of Sarajevo -- I will
25 come to -- I will try to establish the mode of travel.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking about the mode of travel, I'm
2 asking about the purpose when you say -- you see if you ask me how many
3 times I have been out of The Hague, I can't remember how many times. But
4 if you say to me how many times have I have been out The Hague to go and
5 hold a position in Amsterdam or in Rotterdam then I may be able to
7 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I'm asking this question because
8 Sarajevo was encircled at the time, and therefore it was not very easy to
9 get out, and I was trying to ask the witness about his experiences.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may proceed, sir.
11 MR. NEUNER:
12 Q. How could you get out of Sarajevo on these four occasions?
13 A. Through the tunnel.
14 Q. Could you tell me, since when was the tunnel operating?
15 A. Since the summer of 1993.
16 Q. Any particular month you would remember in 1993 when it was
18 A. No.
19 Q. And what was your first occasion that you left through the
21 A. The first time was in September, when Mr. Delic had to go and
22 inspect the corps and to introduce himself as the new commander. So
23 Sulejman Vranj, the General, and I went. Both of us were from the
24 personnel department.
25 Q. And you said in September. This is in September 1993 you're
1 referring to?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you just tell the Trial Chamber which corps were visited,
4 if any?
5 A. Yes, I can. First, we went to the 6th corps because it was
6 closest to Konjic and then to Zenica to the 3rd corps. From there we
7 went to the 2nd Corps and then we returned.
8 Q. Could you tell me whom the delegation consisting of Mr. Delic,
9 Vranj, and yourself who were you visiting in Zenica?
10 A. We inspected or visited the command of the 3rd Corps. We were
11 introduced to the assistant commanders and the other personnel there.
12 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting in Zenica with the corps
14 A. The purpose of the meeting was to inform -- or to introduce the
15 commander to the corps, because he had only been appointed commander two
16 months earlier.
17 Q. And who was the 3rd Corps commander to whom Mr. Delic was
19 A. If I remember, I think it was Hadzihasanovic, Enver.
20 Q. I want turn now to -- just tell me how many days did you remain
21 in this 3rd Corps AOR with Mr. Delic?
22 A. I think two days.
23 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now to awards. You have testified a
24 lot about awards today. Could you confirm that mainly there were two
25 laws and regulations which were applied in the procedure of awarding
1 incentives, and this is the rules of awarding the golden lily from
2 October 1992?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And also the book of rules on acknowledgment and incentives of
5 the ARBiH which is from the 31st December 1994.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So these two rules and regulations governed basically the
8 awarding procedure. Is it right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I want to ask you something about, you testified that your
11 office, when it received proposals from the corps, did not question the
12 facts which were submitted but, rather, assessed them only?
13 Could you confirm that?
14 A. Could you please clarify what you mean exactly by "assess"?
15 Q. I understood you to say and that's why I'm asking you for
16 clarification that the corps submitted proposals which contained facts on
17 each individual, why the person should be awarded, and I understood you
18 to say that your office was not questioning these facts, but, rather,
19 only assessing whether the facts would qualify that this person receives
20 an award.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think and I may be mistaken here, I thought the
22 witness all he checked was whether things were done according to
23 procedure, according to the rules.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MR. NEUNER:
1 Q. So could you describe when you would get a proposal from a corps
2 how would your check look like. If certain facts relating to one person
3 are stated and pleaded, what would your office do?
4 A. With every name there was a statement of reasons what this
5 person -- what this person did and why he is proposed for an award and if
6 this statement of reasons was in keeping with the rules, then we would
7 just process it, because it had come from the corps and they had sent it
8 according to the rules.
9 Q. Okay. And could you tell me what would happen if the facts
10 pleaded for an applicant would not fit into the procedure. How would
11 your decision then look like?
12 A. Such a proposal would not get an okay from us.
13 Q. Would the corps who submitted the proposal initially have a
14 chance to polish up this initial proposal submit more facts or it would
15 be denied forever?
16 A. It wouldn't have an opportunity to polish it up because there was
17 no time for that.
18 Q. So what you're saying in essence is an applicant was -- or a
19 proposal related to one person, and once it was denied it was denied
21 A. For that particular occasion, yes. Now, if another explanation
22 or statement of reasons was submitted on the following occasion, then he
23 could get an okay or a green light.
24 Q. You mentioned background checks about the criminality of persons
25 who were proposed for awards. And did I understand you correctly that
1 the corps would perform such background checks?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What would happen if a corps is proposing to you a person for an
4 award and you would have independent information available which would
5 tell you that this person might have a criminal background? What would
6 you do, or what have you done during the war in such a situation?
7 A. I did not have -- I was not privy to such information.
8 Q. Okay. So do you mean that you never consulted with the security
9 administration of the General Staff whether a person could have a
10 criminal background or not?
11 A. No, I did not check this. Wasn't my duty to do so.
12 Q. Can I just show you a document.
13 MR. NEUNER: And this is PT4064.
14 And while it is coming up, I can introduce it already. It is the
15 rules about the awarding of golden lilies.
16 Q. You spoke a little bit earlier about this. Can you confirm that,
17 in fact your office applied this regulation in the awarding procedure?
18 A. First of all, I don't understand this date. It says the 1st of
19 October, 1990. If that is the date for this -- for these rules, then
20 this is it from the system of the old, the former army.
21 Q. I agree with you. I also noticed the date. If you look at the
22 right-hand side at the stamp next to it, you see it is stamped on the 1st
23 of October, 1992. And if we can maybe go for a second to the last page
24 and look at the signature. Maybe it becomes a little bit clearer then
25 from which time-period it is.
1 If we could scroll to the right exactly that the signature can be
2 seen. Maybe we can even enlarge it a little bit.
3 Do you know whose signature that is?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Whose signature is it?
6 A. Mr. Sefer Halilovic's signature.
7 Q. Did you apply rules about golden lilies as signed by
8 Sefer Halilovic?
9 A. No. I applied the rules from 1994, the 31st of October, of 31st
10 October, 1994.
11 Q. But you explained to us that you came to the personnel
12 administration already by August 1993. So what rules did you apply then
13 to award golden lilies?
14 The law you were referring to previously is from 1994; that's why
15 I'm asking.
16 A. Yes. There were rules that were made -- prepared in 1993 also.
17 Q. Okay. So you didn't apply this rule here?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. I'm nevertheless interested in Article 9 which is now in
20 front of you.
21 MR. NEUNER: If we could enlarge or -- yeah. That a little bit.
22 Q. If you just look at Article 9 and if you say you cannot comment
23 upon it, no problem, I will move on. It says here that the golden lily
24 may be taken away from the recipient in case he or she commits a crime
25 against humanity, the political system, life, and for reasons of
1 self-interests, following receipt of the decoration.
2 Is this rule familiar with you?
3 A. No. At this time, I was not involved with a lily and I have no
4 idea who conferred these. I don't know --
5 Q. Just that I understand that, so throughout the time from
6 August 1993 onwards until the end of the war, a similar provision to
7 revoke that a golden lily was awarded was never applied in your office.
8 Is that right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Could you tell me whether, nevertheless, there were situations
11 that after a golden lily was awarded new facts about the criminal
12 background of a person or whatsoever were coming to light and whether
13 your office then withdrew golden lilies?
14 A. We never received such a demand, nor did we have any information
15 about such things.
16 Q. So do I understand you correctly, that once golden lilies were
17 awarded in your office, they were not revoked by your office later for
18 reasons of -- that the recipient was involved in crime?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I showed a lot of
21 patience up to a point. The witness couldn't be clearer that this --
22 these rules were not applicable, and that such a rule that was -- as was
23 suggested by the Prosecutor was not applicable. So I don't see why the
24 Prosecutor is asking this question over again, why whether this rule was
25 applied and so on.
1 I think we've gone too far, and I don't think the witness should
2 answer questions like this.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.
4 MR. NEUNER: Well, all I wanted to get at is a simple yes or no.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is you have asked this question
6 before and it has been answered.
7 MR. NEUNER: I'm prepared to move on, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough.
9 MR. NEUNER: I'm not seeking that this document is admitted into
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MR. NEUNER:
13 Q. You were shown a series of documents relating to the award of
14 golden lilies and silver shields today.
15 MR. NEUNER: And if we can just, out of the several documents,
16 pull one document up. For example, Exhibit 1134.
17 Q. You have seen this earlier. And if we can just go to the last
18 page in the B/C/S. In English it's fine.
19 MR. NEUNER: If we can scroll down, yeah. I want to see the
21 Q. We see here, and I think you testified about this, that we see
22 the signature from Rasim Delic, is it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you accept that if a commander is putting a signature below
25 a document that he assumes authorship for it?
1 A. No. I'm the author of the document, and I drafted the document.
2 Q. I would accept that you're the drafter of the document. But why
3 are you the author? Because you haven't signed it.
4 A. The author of the document is the person who drafts the document,
5 if my understanding is correct.
6 Q. But you didn't sign this document, did you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You walked to Mr. Rasim Delic in order to get his authority over
9 the document, didn't you?
10 A. I went to the office in order that the commander may sign
11 document that I wrote, and that the document may be implemented. The
12 personnel administration is responsible for the document it drafts,
13 specifically my department as well. The commander was not duty-bound to
14 check whether I had properly drafted the document or not.
15 Q. This is correct. But my question was that didn't you walk to
16 Mr. Delic because you wanted to have his authority other the document?
17 A. This is a play of words now, "authority." What does that mean?
18 Q. If I put you for a moment in the position of the receiver of such
19 a document, would you think that it would make a difference for the
20 receiver of such a document, whether Mr. Rasim Delic had signed the
21 document or whether you had signed the document?
22 A. Probably yes.
23 Q. And why is that so? Can you explain?
24 A. Because it concerns the commander, on the one hand, and a head of
25 a department. There's a difference in ...
1 Q. I want to move on.
2 I want to move now to the second set of rules.
3 MR. NEUNER: And this is PT6291.
4 Q. I hope you can read it. The extract is on the left column here.
5 It refers to -- it is below the number 553. And we see here first of all
6 the title, the book of rules on acknowledgment and incentives in the
7 armed forces of the --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
9 MR. NEUNER: -- ARBiH.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to my
11 colleague Mr. Neuner but could he be so kind as to tell us once more what
12 the purpose of showing this document to the witness is since this
13 document was not on the 65 ter list either. I mean, the Prosecution 65
14 ter list.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.
17 MR. NEUNER: Okay. I can respond by stating that the document
18 has been there its entirety disclosed to you, including the translation,
19 that you yourself have the same document on your own exhibit list, and in
20 fact, it is D978.
21 The problem for the Prosecution was that there's only one article
22 out of this rules and regulations translated, and we took the liberty to
23 translate the entire law.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour this is not what I'm
25 referring to. I agree with all was said. What I am asking is that the
1 Prosecutor explain to us what the purpose of showing this document to the
2 witness can be, since the document was not on the Prosecution list, and
3 rule 85 governs the procedure and the presentation of evidence by the
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, subject to correction by you or
6 anybody else, the Chamber has a document before it which is called
7 Prosecution's exhibit list for Witness Loncaric. And this document lists
8 this exhibit -- this PT6291 as a 65 ter exhibit, number PT6291. I'm not
9 sure what meaning we are supposed to give to the title 65 ter exhibit on
10 this document. It leaves us with the impression that it was in the 65
11 ter list.
12 Can we be corrected?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the PT
14 number, it seems that it was on the 65 ter list. The fact of the matter
15 is that it was not on the 65 ter list, and that's the basis of my
17 And let me tell you briefly that the basis of my objection is
18 that Rule 65 regulates closely how and in what way the parties lead their
19 evidence. The Prosecution was duty-bound to present the evidence that is
20 crucial to their case during presentation of their evidence. They can
21 lead new evidence exceptionally according to the rules and procedure
22 provided for that case. You know that there is the stage called
23 rebuttal, and there are standards governing when the new evidence can be
25 If new evidence is asked to be led, then it has to be evidence
1 which the Prosecution had not had in its possession in the relevant time.
2 This piece of evidence does not fall into either of these categories.
3 The case law has well established the precedents.
4 Let's look Prosecution against Zejnil Delalic, which clearly
5 regulates the matter I've just presented and that's that the parties need
6 to abide by the rule, by rules 85 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,
7 and that the crucial evidence, evidence crucial to the Prosecution case
8 must be led during the Prosecution case and that exceptions will be
9 allowed only when new evidence emerges which the Prosecution, in other
10 words, had not had in its possession, and during rebuttal which is a
11 completely separate stage of trial.
12 Through the Hadzihasanovic case and through the guidelines in the
13 Prlic case exceptions were laid down, and the exceptions include
14 refreshing a witness's memory and the exception is based on these
15 decisions where a document is used to impeach a witness.
16 It is on this basis, Your Honour, that I am requesting that the
17 Prosecutor state his intentions in showing this document. If he intends
18 to show the document on the matter of refreshing a witness's memory or
19 impeaching the witness then I do not object. However, if the Prosecutor
20 wishes to use this point in time to lead new evidence that he omitted to
21 lead at the time when they had their case to present, then I object to
22 that, because I believe that such conduct violates the Articles 20 and 21
23 of the statute, since such a course encroaches upon the right of the
24 accused to a fair trial in the element guaranteeing him enough time to
25 prepare his Defence.
1 I apologise. I have spoken a bit too long, but I am referring to
2 all the documents that the Prosecution did not place on their 65 ter
3 list. That's why I used this occasion to elaborate on my objection so
4 that I would -- so that I can avoid doing so in the future.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Your Honours this is the precise issue that the Trial Chamber
8 ruled upon on the 18th of March 2008 and which is now the subject of an
9 interlocutory appeal in this case. The simple fact of the matter is the
10 document which Your Honour indicates has a 65 ter number was not - and I
11 stress - was not on the Prosecution's 65 ter exhibit list that was filed
12 prior to trial.
13 We have assigned it numbers so that it could be uploaded into
14 e-court. That is the reason that these documents get numbers by the
16 So it is not an issue of we're trying to sneak some late document
17 in and give it a 65 ter number to try to fool anyone into thinking that
18 it was on our 65 ter list prior to trial. It was not.
19 The Prosecution is relying upon the Trial Chamber's earlier
20 decision. You will recall on the 18th of March this issue came up when
21 there was a document that was not on our original 65 ter list that I
22 showed to a witness, I believe, or one of my colleagues did, and this
23 issue the Trial Chamber decided that we were allowed to do this. The
24 Defence sought certification the Trial Chamber granted the certification
25 and appeal briefs have been filed by the parties on this very point.
1 And so partially as a result of that, on the 18th of March, when the
2 Chamber rendered its oral decision granting certificate, I specifically
3 asked if we were permitted to continue doing this while the appeal was
4 pending, and if I'm not mistaken on page 7729 of the hearing on the 18th
5 of March, from lines 13 to 21, I asked that question, and Judge Harhoff
6 was presiding, and affirmed that the Prosecution was permitted to do this
7 while the appeal was pending. And that's really where we are with this
8 issue. It has been decide that the Trial Chamber allowed us to do this,
9 the Defence appealed, sought certification and has appealed; and the
10 Trial Chamber has stated on the 18th of March that we were allowed to do
11 this while the appeal was pending, and I really think that we need not
12 spend a whole lot of additional time on this point. The issue is now
13 before the Appeals Chamber and that's where we stand on this very issue
14 as to whether or not we can show documents to Defence witnesses that were
15 not on our original 65 ter list that was filed months a month and months
16 and months ago before we even knew who the Defence witnesses would be.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, briefly, I don't
19 know, it is possible that it was so decided, but that was not my
20 understanding of what Judge Harhoff said. But this does not mean that I
21 will not raise my objection in every such situation.
22 What will happen if our appeal is granted, and we will have all
23 this evidence admitted? I will most definitely raise an objection
24 against every such document because the Prosecution is aware of the fact
25 that this largely departs from the case law of this Tribunal.
1 I will be raising my objection in every such situation.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to confirm, you said you don't know
3 whether the Trial Chamber did grant this permission. Are you able to
4 confirm by looking at the record of the day, of the 18th of March, so
5 that at least we can be at idem on that point.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. We
7 seem to be at logger heads here.
8 I do -- at cross purposes. I do know that the Trial Chamber
9 granted certification for our appeal. What I do not remember is that His
10 Honour Judge Harhoff stated what my colleague Mr. Mundis just said, that
11 the procedure is allowed to go ahead. I may be mistaken. Perhaps my
12 colleague Mundis is right.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is precisely what I was asking you. Can you
14 just scroll back to the transcript of 18th of March and check whether the
15 Trial Chamber did grant permission for the further granting of these kind
16 of documents pending the appeal. And Judge Harhoff says to me that, yes,
17 he did grant that permission.
18 MR. MUNDIS: It is page 7729 of the 18th of March, 2008, lines 13
19 through 21.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you find that.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if my colleague
22 Mr. Mundis found it on the transcript, I'm not challenging that.
23 Let me just state for the record that, I will be raising my
24 objections nevertheless because I do not want to find myself in a
25 difficult situation. Should our appeal be grant I will ask for all that
1 evidence to be excluded from the case file, and if I raise objections
2 that will facilitate tracking these documents down.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much Madam Vidovic. That is what I
4 was going to suggest that given the fact that the Trial Chamber has
5 granted the permission, and this permission is pending the appeal, the
6 outcome of the appeal. We continue to admit the documents. If the
7 appeal goes against the Prosecution then we strike out all that evidence.
8 But, similarly I think I'm not quite sure whether this is the
9 same issue and please do correct me. Yesterday we accepted a number of
10 documents marked for identification and I thought they were more or less
11 along the same basis. Is it so that if the appeal goes against the
12 Defence those documents marked for identification yesterday will then
13 also go in? Or are they on a different footing?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was on a
15 different footing. Not this one. Quite something else.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I agree with that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You agree with that. Thank you very much.
18 We're learning.
19 In that event -- that event, then we will allow this document,
20 pending appeal.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 MR. NEUNER: I just -- as the counsel concerned want to place an
23 observation on the record. At this point in time I'm only showing the
24 document to this witness. I was at this point in time not even seeking
25 to tender the document into evidence. I just wanted to state that it
1 could be, depending on the witness's answers, that there is even no
2 necessity to tender this particular document into evidence.
3 I cannot say as the counsel who has selected this document for
4 the time being. I cannot say where I will arrive at some later point in
5 time during the examination. I just wanted to place this observation on
6 the record from the intervention from my learned colleague so far I was
7 not even allowed to show the document to the witness, or to put it
8 different, to ask a question after I have shown it to the witness.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any comment on that, Madam Vidovic?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't, Your Honour. I wanted to
11 learn from the Prosecutor whether his intention was to refresh the
12 witness's memory or to impeach him, because in that case I would not have
13 raised my objection and this one sentence from the Prosecutor could have
14 solved the entire matter.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe again it goes to the question of timing.
16 Maybe jump at the time when he seeks to tender it, rather than in
18 You may proceed Mr. Neuner.
19 MR. NEUNER:
20 Q. Witness, if could you just have a look at the title. That's
21 where we stopped a moment ago. It says here: Book of rules on
22 acknowledgments and incentives in the armed forces of the Republic of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 The question which I wanted to put to you is: Is this the law
25 from the December 1994 which was applied in your office to issue awards?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if we could look for a moment at Article 2 and the first
3 sentence of it. It says here and I quote:
4 "Acknowledgment and incentives may be awarded to an individual to
5 command, unit and institution of armed forces ..."
6 Could you explain to Your Honours why was it foreseen by the
7 rules that also units of the ARBiH could get acknowledgments?
8 A. Well, pursuant to the rules, the units can get that. I don't
9 understand your question. That's what the rules were like, and they were
11 Q. Could you just explain why was it not sufficient to award
12 individuals? Why was it necessary, so to speak, to award entire units?
13 This is my question.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor should
16 first ascertain if the witness was a member of parliament or whether he
17 authored the rules and could therefore talk about what the intentions of
18 the legislator were. Otherwise, the witness is called to speculate.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.
20 MR. NEUNER: If I understood the witness's testimony correctly,
21 he has applied the rule, after it was enacted as the chief of the section
22 of awards and medals, so I believe he is in a competent position to
23 answer that question which I just put.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But your question, Mr. Neuner, had been and I'm
25 reading at page 87, line -- starting at line 12, Could you explain to
1 Your Honours why I'm sure it meant to be it was foreseen by the rules
2 that also units of the ARBiH could get acknowledgments.
3 Now, foreseen that is at the stage of parliament. That is the
4 stage of legislations.
5 MR. NEUNER: I'm prepared to rephrase the question, Your Honours,
6 sorry, I didn't see that meaning at the time I was asking. But I'm
7 certainly prepared to rephrase it.
8 Q. Could you explain to Your Honours what the normal reasons were,
9 once they were pled in an application which justified that your section
10 in the personnel administration granted an award to a unit.
11 A. The rules were issued and signed by the Defence minister, I
12 believe. It had nothing to do with the General Staff or with my
13 department. I implemented what they wrote. I did not take part in the
14 drafting of the rules.
15 Q. Sorry, you're not answering my question. I try to make it
17 What quality needed a unit to have in order to be eligible for an
19 A. That question should be put to the proposing party, i.e., the
20 corps what sort of criteria they took into consideration in proposing a
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's see if we can get this a little easier.
23 In the course of your duties in this position, did you ever
24 receive a request from the corps for an award to a unit?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to remember where you sit in that
2 request what the reasons were for the award to the unit?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement of reasons would say
4 that the unit accomplished the missions it was given without going into
5 great detail about it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does that answer your question?
7 MR. NEUNER: I will continue from that point on, but tomorrow
8 morning, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir.
10 We will then adjourn. We are adjourning to tomorrow morning at
11 9.00, sir. So do remember to come early in the morning.
12 Court adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00. Same courtroom.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of April,
16 2008, at 9.00 a.m.