Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 758

 1                           Tuesday, 10 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, Doctor.  May I remind you, your

 7     affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.

 8             Mr. Djordjevic.

 9                           WITNESS:  LIRI LOSHI [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:  [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Let us continue where we left off yesterday.  My

15     next question pertains to the 26th of March.  The time is 1600, 1630, in

16     the village of Likovac.  Do you know where the village of Likovac is?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Is it also in the municipality of Srbica?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of this date, the 26th of March, and

21     the time slot that I indicated?  So do you know that in the village of

22     Likovac five police officers were killed, or is it something that you

23     don't know about?

24        A.   No, I don't know about that.

25        Q.   In light of the fact that in your statement you said that you had

Page 759

 1     received information from the KLA about all the events in the

 2     municipality of Srbica, how do you then explain the fact that you have no

 3     knowledge of such an extremely grave incident?

 4        A.   [In English] Okay.

 5             [Interpretation] In the place where I was operating, that was an

 6     area that was physically separated from Likovc that you mentioned.

 7     Likovc is south of Turiqevc, the terrain is very difficult, about

 8     3 kilometres south of Turiqevc, so it is very difficult to communicate

 9     with people.  Very often for days on end nobody came from Likovc to

10     Turiqevc, and vice versa.  I did not have any contact with people in

11     Likovc.  It would be impossible for me to get information about events in

12     Likovc.  They had other reporters who reported for the RTK and other

13     media.  So Likovc was not under my zone of responsibility, if I could

14     call it so.

15             I would comment on what you said, that it would not be reasonable

16     to attack the Serb forces there.  The Serb forces came to Izbica from

17     various directions, and they did not have any connection with Likovc

18     whatsoever.

19        Q.   You mentioned your area of responsibility, and you have never

20     done that before.  Could you please then tell me, what was your area of

21     responsibility in territorial terms, since you said that Likovac was not

22     within your jurisdiction, that it was south of Turicevac about

23     3 kilometres?

24        A.   I said earlier that I operated in the area of Brigade 111th.  In

25     Likovc there was another brigade; I can't remember its name or number.

Page 760

 1     There were other people who were responsible there in Likovc.  Brigade

 2     112th was -- started from the area of Llausha, and I could mention all

 3     the villages under its responsibility, but it could take a long time.  If

 4     you want me to do so, I will.

 5        Q.   You don't have to do that, but you claim that Likovac was not in

 6     your area, as you say it.  Can we agree that it is a fact?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  My next question again pertains to what you stated in

 9     your examination-in-chief when you were examined by my colleague,

10     Ms. Daniela Kravetz.  You said that on the 24th of March a shell killed

11     three people in the village of Kladernica.  Did you eye-witness that

12     event?

13        A.   No, I did not eye-witness that because I went there later.  The

14     event had occurred during the night, while I went there in the morning of

15     the 25th of March.  However, I did not have any reason that it happened,

16     because I was in contact with people, with their relatives, so I got

17     information from them.  And this killing happened because of the

18     shelling.  The Serb forces here did not conduct any execution of the

19     people, but people died because there was shelling.  And these people,

20     unfortunately, were there at the moment and that's how it happened.

21        Q.   You said that there was shelling, that the village of Kladernica

22     was shelled.  You also mentioned that on the 26th, if I'm not mistaken,

23     the 26th of March, a group of people was killed in Turicevac, again by

24     shelling.  Were you an eye-witness of this latter incident on the 26th?

25     Rather, I'm sorry, yes, I made a mistake.  It was the 30th of March.  And

Page 761

 1     the village is Tusilje.  That was the other story about the shelling.

 2        A.   I did not eye-witness that.

 3        Q.   You say that you heard this from other people.  Those other

 4     people that you heard it from, were those officers of the KLA, in other

 5     words, the military, or were those civilians?

 6        A.   There was a group of people, villagers, who were in Tushile, and

 7     then they came to Kopiliq and I talked to them.  They were scared,

 8     terrified, by what had happened that day and told me that in Tushile

 9     there had been a very severe shelling.  I heard the shelling personally,

10     but they told me that 11 people had been killed.  I was never able to

11     verify the information, though, so I'm not sure how many people died.

12     But of course people died there.  However, whether there were 11 of them

13     or less, I don't know.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, where did the shells come from, when

15     we're talking about the village of Kladernica and the village of Tusilje?

16        A.   Well, I'll try to explain that the Serb forces, whenever we

17     wanted to enter a place, first of all, they shelled is.  That's why I

18     always call them "the Serb forces" and not with another name, because my

19     impression is that the Serb army shelled, and then after that the

20     operations were joint operations, the police and the army.

21             So if they had planned to enter a certain area, they shelled the

22     whole day to show people where they were, and the people had to leave in

23     order to be safe.  They also wanted to show the KLA:  Either fight us or

24     leave.  And I think that that was the reason.  And they did not care

25     where that shell fell and who it killed.  They were not known for their

Page 762

 1     humanitarian feelings.

 2             So at that time we knew where the Serb forces were because of the

 3     shelling and the source of the shelling.  The source of the shelling for

 4     Klodernice and the other villages, because to go to Klodernice you have

 5     to go to Kastriot, they shelled all the villages around.  They entered

 6     Klodernice, they entered Turiqevc, they rested in Turiqevc for a night,

 7     they shelled other villages.  They did not go to Tushile the next day,

 8     but they waited so that they could enter Tushile after the shelling.  And

 9     they did not want to have many losses on their side.

10             This is how they operated.  They went wherever they wanted and

11     they had minimal losses on their part.  It was a very well-organised

12     army.  The forces were well organised.  Their operations were successful,

13     but they harmed the local population, the civil population a lot, while

14     the KLA did not resist, because that was their order from their

15     commanders.  And the civilian population asked them not to resist because

16     they would not be able to push them back.

17             So the result of the shelling was that the people would leave, go

18     to places that they thought were safer, such as Izbica, and at the same

19     time the KLA preserved its people.  The idea was not to have many losses.

20     The KLA avoided the conflict, while the Serb army shelled the villages

21     without taking into account whether there were people there or not, and

22     they didn't care whether they killed people or not.  So the next day they

23     would be able to enter the area.

24             At that time the Serb operations were going on, the KLA were in

25     the mountains around, and it is very interesting because the Serb forces

Page 763

 1     never went to the mountains to look for the KLA.  They didn't need to.

 2     This was their tactics.  They wanted to kill the civilian population and

 3     not have any losses on their side.  I think they achieved this

 4     successfully.  But, however, the population was really harmed.

 5        Q.   Mr. Loshi, you were in Lecina.  Can you please repeat for us, why

 6     did you leave that place?

 7        A.   Yes.  I was in Leqina at the beginning, after my house was burnt.

 8     I lived in Demush Dragaj's house.  The reason I left on the 26th is

 9     because it was impossible to go on living there.  I went to Izbica, to

10     Turiqevc, and at that time I could see what was going on.  We measured

11     the danger we were in by the shelling that was happening.  So the

12     shelling started on Leqina so I did not -- I could not go to Leqina

13     anymore.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the witness to

15     speak more slowly, please.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So you are saying that the Serbian forces shelled Lecina, too.

18        A.   The Serb forces shelled all the villages in Dr enice, including

19     Leqina.  There is no village in Drenice that was not shelled.

20        Q.   Mr. Loshi, were there any Serb inhabitants in those villages?

21     That's my first question.  And my second question is whether there were

22     any other ethnic communities, non-Albanians, living there, members of

23     other ethnic communities living in Kosovo?

24        A.   In my village, Padalishte, there were no Serbs.  In Leqina there

25     were some Serb families.  In other villages, in Drenice, Ludoviq,

Page 764

 1     Llausha, there is a church which was working before and during the war.

 2     In Runik where I worked as a doctor, there were Serbs.  Runik had a

 3     majority of Serbs in the area.  Then Banja and the village of Radisheva,

 4     there were Serbs.  On the other side there is the village of Belinca,

 5     which is in the Istog municipality but is neighbouring to Izbica.  That

 6     is another village where Serbs lived.  This is what I know about what you

 7     asked me.

 8             In Leqina there were several families.  Not many, but there were

 9     some.  I did not have any contact with these Serbs personally, unless

10     they came to Runik as patients for me to treat them.  That could be

11     possible.  But other than that, I did not have any contact with them.

12        Q.   And you will agree with me that a number of Serb families --

13     well, let's have Lecina as our example, because this is where you were;

14     that there were at least ten Serb families there.  Would you agree with

15     me?

16        A.   It is possible that you have the right information, but I don't

17     know.  I can agree with you, but I cannot say whether there were ten of

18     them or how many there were.

19        Q.   No, I'm asking you this because you spent some time there and you

20     are familiar with the circumstances, and this is why I'm quite surprised

21     that you're not aware of this.  But I'm sure that there will be many

22     things that you don't know when we come to things that you don't want to

23     be talking about.  But what I'm asking you now is this:  The families

24     living in Lecina, was their last name Smigic or Zmigic?  Do you know at

25     least that?

Page 765

 1        A.   I don't know the surnames.  I'm not sure.  I will say again that

 2     it is possible that there were families with that surname, but I didn't

 3     know them.  Well, as to your comment, I don't think that I have given the

 4     impression that I don't want to answer the questions; however, that's

 5     your opinion, and you can think whatever you want.

 6        Q.   Doctor, I would like to be mistaken.  Of course, I simply

 7     presented my impression and it is not binding on anyone in this

 8     courtroom, but I'm sure that we will all be thinking about what you told

 9     us.

10             My next question is, since you were in Lecina, and bearing in

11     mind the way that you answered -- the way you answered questions so far,

12     I think I have a fair idea of what your answer will be, but can you tell

13     me, do you know who Habit Haziraj is, who Muhamet Haliti, aka Naser, who

14     these people are?  We're talking about Lecina.  You lived there.

15        A.   Muhamet Haliti, I don't think there is -- there was a

16     Muhamet Haliti there.  And this person Naser, who was that person?

17        Q.   That's what I asked you.  Do you know who he is, Muhamet Haliti,

18     aka Naser?

19        A.   There is no person with such a name in Leqina.  I don't remember

20     any Muhamet Haliti.  In Leqina there are these names:  Dragaj, Shala,

21     Konjuhi, Haziraj, who live in another neighbourhood.  There is another

22     surname which is Shala.  There are the Haziraj's and there are some other

23     surnames, but there is no Haliti as a surname.  I know the Albanians much

24     better.  Maybe it's another name you're thinking about.  I have no reason

25     to say I don't know him.  I don't think, though, that there is a person

Page 766

 1     with that surname in the village of Leqina.

 2        Q.   Well, Dr. Loshi, I will agree with you completely for the last

 3     names that you mentioned, although I really don't know the families that

 4     you mentioned.  I asked you about a name, whether you knew that man, but

 5     that pertained to Lecina.  I asked you about Habit Haziraj.  Can I elicit

 6     any kind of answer from you about that name?  I don't claim that they are

 7     from Lecina, but they were linked to an event in Lecina that involved the

 8     Serb population.  So that's why I'm asking you, do you know who

 9     Habit Haziraj is, yes or not, and if yes, then please explain how you

10     know him.

11        A.   Yes.  Habit Haziraj was a member of the KLA.  He was a member of

12     the 112th Brigade.  I knew him.

13        Q.   Where is Habit Haziraj from?

14        A.   From Llausha.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Lecina.  My next question is

16     this:  Do you know that those two persons I just mentioned to you, Habit

17     Haziraj and Muhamet Haliti, aka Naser, or since you told us that you

18     didn't know who Muhamet Haliti was, do you have any knowledge of any

19     persons having abducted Dostana Smigic form Lecina and having taken her

20     to a prison in the village of Likovac.  And she was killed after that.

21     She was also tortured, and she went through a number of unpleasant

22     experiences.  Do you have any knowledge of that, since at that time you

23     were in Lecina?  Or, again, you don't know anything about that?

24        A.   Could you please give me a date because I have heard about this

25     case, but I was not in Leqina at that time.  I heard about this case when

Page 767

 1     I was in Runik working there, meaning that a Serb woman was missing for

 2     some time.  I was not in Leqina at the time so I don't have direct

 3     information about that.

 4        Q.   Well, it probably happened before you arrived in Lecina.  That's

 5     what I suppose.

 6        A.   It is possible.  I heard about that when I was in Runik, from the

 7     Albanians, Serbs, that this woman went missing, but I don't have any

 8     other information.

 9        Q.   What time -- when did you arrive in Lecina?  What month?

10        A.   I went to Leqina by the end of June 1998.

11        Q.   Were there more Serbs in Lecina at that time?  Were those

12     families living there still, or had they already moved out?

13        A.   I'm not sure.  I know that there were Serbs there, that their

14     houses were there; however, please believe me that I don't know whether

15     they were still living there or not.  I was busy doing my job as a

16     doctor.  Their houses are in a separate neighbourhood.  They have a

17     different entrance from the rest of the village.  You enter that

18     neighbourhood through another street, so I never went to that

19     neighbourhood.  I simply don't have any information about what you asked

20     me.

21        Q.   Are you trying to tell us that those Serbs were hale and hearty

22     to such an extent that they never went to visit Dr. Loshi, or was there

23     any other doctor there or near?

24        A.   At that time when I worked in Leqina, you mean?  They didn't come

25     to see me.  I don't know whether they had health problems or not, but

Page 768

 1     they never came to see me as a doctor.  If you ask me about Runik, then,

 2     yes, there were Serbs.  Maybe there were some who came from Leqina, but I

 3     don't remember all of them.  I had many patients, between 70 and 80 a

 4     day.

 5        Q.   I asked you about Lecina, not Runik, and that was not by chance.

 6     There were the Serb houses there, the ones that you saw, but there were

 7     no Serbs living there.  They had been expelled, as you saw.

 8             I'm going to stop at this point and then I'm going to deal with

 9     another topic.  In relation to Tusilje and Kladernica, and we heard about

10     other villages, you said that they were shelled by Serb forces and you

11     said that was their pattern of behaviour.  And they would enter and then

12     they did all sorts of things, committed crimes, and so on and so forth.

13     So we heard that there were Serbs in those villages, too, and we will

14     conclude that the Serb army and police were merciless, as you say,

15     towards the members of their own ethnic group that they belonged to.

16             I would be interested in the shelling.  First of all, when did

17     the NATO bombing in Kosovo start?  Do you know the date?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What was the date?

20        A.   On the 24th of March, in the evening.

21        Q.   That's right.  Thank you.  Do you know and are you sure that the

22     shelling that you referred to was carried out by the Serb army only, or

23     was there shelling by NATO, too?

24        A.   In the Drenice area, at least in the area where I lived, there

25     was no shelling by NATO.  In other words, there was no bombing by NATO

Page 769

 1     from the air.  The shelling came from the Serb forces, land forces, from

 2     their positions on the ground, so they were shelling surface to surface.

 3        Q.   Mr. Loshi, where did you do your military service?  You said that

 4     you had done your military service in the Yugoslav People's Army, so

 5     where was that?

 6        A.   I went to do military service in September 1987 and completed it

 7     in 1988.  I completed one part in Bitola, in Macedonia, and I finished

 8     the training period there in Bitola, or Manastir in Albanian, and the

 9     remaining part I completed in Skopje.  The training period lasted for

10     some three months.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter kindly requests that the

12     witness repeats the dates again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] September 1987, and September 1988

14     I finished it.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you for such a detailed answer.  Just one more detail,

17     please.  What service did you do your military service in, and what were

18     you trained for?

19        A.   We were taught how to use automatic rifles, pistols, recoilless

20     guns.  To tell you the truth, I was not a weapon lover, so it is very

21     difficult for me to remember every type of weapons we were taught how to

22     use.  I don't like weapons.  I was not a good soldier in terms of

23     weapons, using weapons.  I was 27 when I went to do my military service

24     and completed it when I was 28, so my interests were completely

25     different.  So going to serve, to do the military service, for me was

Page 770

 1     like going to prison.  But that was something that we all had to do, so

 2     that's what I did, too.

 3        Q.   Doctor, I share your views on a personal level.  Just one more

 4     thing.  As you described this to all of us in the courtroom, did you

 5     serve in the infantry or where?  I'm talking about arms and services now.

 6     It certainly wasn't the navy.  I doubt it was the air force.

 7        A.   We were -- we underwent the general training.  I was in the

 8     infantry for three and a half months, until this training period was

 9     completed, and afterwards I was no longer part of the infantry.  We

10     worked in the Goca Delcev barracks and did physical work, manual work.

11     And I also had time to prepare my exams, so at the same time I was

12     studying to complete my university studies.

13        Q.   And you were not a good soldier; right?

14        A.   Yes.  When it comes to using weapons, yes, I was not a good

15     soldier.  You're right.

16        Q.   By all means, yes, yes.  Since you mentioned your young colleague

17     who worked as a doctor together with you and who got killed later, you

18     said that he got his degree in medicine from a university that was not

19     recognised by the Serbian authorities, so he did not have a diploma,

20     whereas you graduated from the school of medicine from the University of

21     Pristina within the educational system of the then SFRY or later FRY, and

22     within that, of course, the Republic of Serbia, the Autonomous Province

23     of Kosovo and Metohija.  Am I right when I say that?  And you got a

24     regular diploma of the school of medicine of the University of Pristina;

25     right?

Page 771

 1        A.   Yes.  My colleague, too, had a diploma, but from an alternative

 2     university led by Albanians.  So he graduated from this faculty.  He had

 3     a diploma too.  Personally, I graduated as you explained during the time

 4     of Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  What KLA brigade operated in the area of Izbica or,

 6     rather, Srbica, one or more?  And if so, which one or which ones?

 7        A.   One so-called brigade, though it wasn't a brigade in real terms.

 8     I don't know about the exact number of soldiers.  I was asked of this

 9     from Milosevic, during that trial.  This was a brigade that operated in

10     that area.

11        Q.   Thank you.  This so-called brigade, as you had put it, was that

12     the Drenica operation zone of the KLA?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that this brigade, during 1998, and in

15     the beginning of 1999 was in the Drenica operation zone or, rather, the

16     municipality of Srbica; that they blocked roads there, attacked the Serb

17     police, civilians, other ethnic groups, Roma included, and even Albanians

18     who did not support their cause.  Of course they attacked the security

19     forces, the Serbian army, and so on.  The question was a pretty long one,

20     but the answer can be short.

21        A.   No, this is not true.  This brigade, like all other brigades that

22     were formed, its purpose was to defend the Albanian population to a

23     certain extent from the Serbian forces.  We all knew that the brigade

24     could not stop the attacks of the Serb forces when they were on

25     offensive.  If a group of Serbian infantry would enter a village, the

Page 772

 1     idea was that these brigades, with a scarce number of weapons that they

 2     had, would defend the population and themselves.

 3             I'm not familiar with what you said, that they blocked the roads

 4     and killed civilians and that they killed Serbs and Albanians, civilians

 5     I mean.  I know that they did kill policemen where they could.  And if

 6     they confronted other police forces, there were probably casualties.  But

 7     as far as civilians are concerned, Albanians, Roma, and other ethnic

 8     groups, I don't think so, at least I don't have any knowledge about this.

 9        Q.   This does not correspond to part of your statement where it says

10     that you were a doctor in Runik and that you know that a woman was

11     abducted and went missing from the village of Lecina, but let it be.  And

12     there weren't any check-points on the roads, and the roads weren't

13     blocked?

14        A.   I have an answer.  When I heard about this woman that had been

15     abducted -- you're asking me about the activities of the 112th Brigade.

16     At that time this brigade did not exist, at the time when this woman was

17     abducted.  There was one general name, KLA, and at that time I had no

18     knowledge about the activities.  It's a question of time.  You're saying

19     1998, late 1998, beginning of 1999.  Then, yes, there was a brigade.  But

20     if you're talking about the time of Runik, and you're linking that time

21     to this brigade, I'm simply telling you that at that time the brigade

22     didn't exist.

23        Q.   And the brigade was established only to protect Albanian

24     civilians, and it didn't have any other objectives; right?  Are you

25     trying to say that the sole objective of all the members of the KLA was

Page 773

 1     not to the Republic of Kosovo, an independent Kosovo, an independent

 2     state of Kosovo, or was their objective only what you referred to, the

 3     defence of Albanian civilians?

 4        A.   I believe that their objective was to come out of a regime of

 5     that time, Milosevic time.  I don't want to speak about this because

 6     we've heard a lot about this.  But it was a difficult regime for the

 7     Albanians living in Kosova, so it had to come to an end by all means.  We

 8     had Rugova as a leader who led for ten years the peaceful resistance, but

 9     then we realised that we could no longer understand each other with

10     Milosevic through dialogue.  So the idea was to free Kosova and

11     afterwards to make Kosova independent.  This is true, but the

12     capabilities of the KLA to achieve such a thing was almost inexistent.

13             As to the capabilities of the KLA to try and defend the

14     population, this was possible, and that's why I'm saying that this was

15     the tactics of the KLA.  Maybe during the war they thought that they will

16     liberate Kosova, that they're able to do this and that, but the reality

17     was completely difficult.  It didn't turn out as they expected, so their

18     tactics was to defend the population to the extent that they could.

19             As I mentioned earlier, the Serb army was very well organised.

20     It was a strong army and used all its resources to meet its objectives.

21     To what I saw, the objective was killing, inflicting horror and terror

22     among the population, as well as fear, and ultimately force the Albanian

23     population in Kosova to leave towards Albania and Macedonia, as we saw.

24     This is what you've probably seen as well, something that the whole world

25     has seen.

Page 774

 1        Q.   Obviously you will not agree with me that the Serb army and

 2     police in Kosovo and Metohija protected the sovereignty of a sovereign

 3     state, in view of mass armed resistance, attacks against Serb civilians,

 4     Serb police, and the Serb army.  You certainly will not agree with me

 5     when I say that.

 6        A.   One cannot defend sovereignty by mass killings, and this is what

 7     the Serb army and police did in fact.  If they thought that they could

 8     defend sovereignty of their state, Serbian state, in this way, then I

 9     think that they were mistaken.

10        Q.   As you said, a discussion on that topic would be a very

11     wide-ranging one, and we are not here for that purpose.  However, you

12     will agree with me that peoples like Albanians and people of the Falkland

13     islands, who are tens of thousands of miles away from Great Britain, you

14     know how they reacted when Argentina tried to annex that territory.  Are

15     we going to talk about the Basque in Spain?  Do they have the same rights

16     as Albanians?  Not to speak about the recently seceded republics in

17     Georgia.  This is a political issue and one we are not dealing with in

18     this courtroom, but we are now dealing with the consequence of a highly

19     uncivilised, uncultured event, something that is wrong in the twentieth

20     and twenty-first century, and I'm going to end on that note.  What I'd

21     like to say --

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I think my colleague is again entering

23     into a debate with the witness, and he's not putting any questions to him

24     and entering into a debate with the witness.  I'm just looking at the

25     last line of the transcript.  I don't see any question being put to the

Page 775

 1     witness.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond, Your Honour?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  You may, indeed.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend Ms. Kravetz

 5     rightly noted that I went beyond the scope of questions being put to the

 6     witness, and I will agree with that.  All of this provides an

 7     indispensable context for the questions that will follow, a series of

 8     questions.

 9        Q.   Now, my next question:  You said that many people had come to

10     Izbica; 20.000 to 25.000, that was your estimate.  You said that they

11     came from different villages, from the territory of Drenica.  Why was it

12     Izbica in particular that they came to?

13        A.   As I mentioned early, Izbica is a location where they sheltered.

14     It's a valley with hills on both sides, and it suited the people at the

15     time because they didn't want to be victims of shelling.  So that's why

16     they thought that they would be safe there.  There's no other reason than

17     that.  The same situation is in Tushile.  The terrain is more or less

18     similar to that in Izbica; valleys, surrounded by hills.

19             The Serb forces loved the hills.  They wanted to be on top of the

20     hills, and as soon as they entered the valleys, they would have already

21     surrounded, encircled, them and they had free hands to do whatever they

22     pleased.

23        Q.   Tell me, who is Zeqir Loshi.  Do you know?

24        A.   He is a fellow villager, a distant relative of mine.  There are

25     three Loshi neighbourhoods there.  He's not in my neighbourhood; he is

Page 776

 1     from another neighbourhood.  But he's not part of my family.  We are

 2     very, very distant relatives, but I know him.

 3        Q.   Do you know who Xhavit Dragaj is and Ramadan [Realtime transcript

 4     read in error "Ramut"] Dragaj?

 5        A.   Okay.  I have "Ramut Dragaj" on the screen before me.  It should

 6     read Ramadan Dragaj.  Xhavit Dragaj is a friend of mine.  He's a doctor.

 7     We worked together.  He's a dentist, and as I said, we worked together in

 8     Runik.

 9             Ramadan Dragaj, I didn't remember him as a name in the beginning,

10     but later I was asked about him.  Personally, I don't know him.  But when

11     I went to make a recording after the war about a massacre at Padalishte,

12     he has allegedly come there, and allegedly I have presented him as

13     Commander Ramadan.

14             So this is how I came to realise that I've known -- I've met this

15     person.  I'm not describing him in any capacity.  To me he was just a

16     villager.  It is possible that he was a KLA member, an ordinary soldier,

17     but I don't think I heard of him having an important function within the

18     KLA, whereas Xhavit was never a KLA member.  He is a good doctor, a good

19     dentist.

20        Q.   Your relative Zeqir?

21        A.   Zeqir was for some time in Germany.  He came back.  I think I met

22     him when I came back from Albania.  I don't really remember.  The

23     Tribunal must have this footage about the massacre at Padalishte.  This

24     person was a civilian; I know him as such.  I'm not sure whether he

25     joined the KLA later or not.  It is possible that he joined, but this I

Page 777

 1     don't know.  I cannot be specific here.

 2        Q.   Then I'm going to skip my next question.  You mentioned what you

 3     term as the massacre in Izbica.  You mentioned your relatives Sami and

 4     Jashar Loshi who lost their lives there.  Can you tell me about the two

 5     of them?  Were they members of the KLA?

 6        A.   No, they never were KLA members.  This is -- they come from a

 7     very good family, very honest and helpful.  So they were down-to-earth

 8     people, very good men, and they were never KLA members.  They were close

 9     relatives and my first neighbours.

10        Q.   So they're from Padaliste; right?

11        A.   Yes, they are from Padalishte.  Selman lived in Padalishte during

12     this time, while Jashar and his son Sami lived in Skenderaj.  So Jashar

13     had his family in Skenderaj; however, during the war they joined together

14     on the 20th, when 16 civilians were killed, the event that was mentioned

15     and that occurred in Skenderaj.  So these were amongst those who fled,

16     who survived the events.  They fled to Izbica, and they were killed

17     there.  I saw him with my own eyes -- I saw them with my own eyes, and I

18     spoke to them about these events.  I saw them on the night of the 27th of

19     March for the last time.

20        Q.   My next question has to do with Izbica.  You arrived at the scene

21     where you made the recording that we saw in the courtroom on the 30th of

22     March.  Now, my question pertains to all those people that you filmed,

23     primarily to what you said.  You said that you knew that some of them had

24     not been killed on the same day as the majority of the civilians there.

25     Of course, you were not an eye-witness; you learned that from

Page 778

 1     conversations with other people.

 2             So now I'm going to ask you this:  Do you know how many people

 3     that you filmed there were really residents of certain villages from the

 4     area around Izbica?  Because it's quite obvious that people gathered

 5     there from various villages.  And how many of them were killed in other

 6     locations?  Is it just the one man that you mentioned or were there

 7     several?

 8        A.   Well, if I get the list here, I could help you.  I can look at

 9     the surnames and then tell you which villages they come from.  For

10     example, there are people with the surname Dragaj; they are from Leqina

11     and Izbica.  Well, your question was how many people were from Izbica and

12     the surrounding areas.  That was the question I got.

13        Q.   No.  It is quite clear that all those people were from the area

14     of Srbica, Drenica, and so on.  What I'm asking you is, do you know for a

15     fact whether all of them were killed, lost their lives, on that day,

16     whatever, the 26th or 27th of March?  Or were there people who were

17     killed earlier or later?

18        A.   Okay, then.  The two soldiers from the KLA are Zaim Bajrami and

19     Ajet Beqiri.  Ajet was wearing uniform; Zaim was in civilian clothes.

20     They were killed at the same place on the 27th of March.  The other

21     people were killed on the 28th of March, all of them killed on the 28th

22     of March.  In the group of 127 people that I am talking about, they were

23     all killed on the same day.

24        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Loshi.

25             The next line of questioning will have to do with an exhibit

Page 779

 1     tendered by the Prosecution.  It's the list about the photograph where

 2     you answered some questions by my colleague Ms. Kravetz, and there was

 3     the investigator Malvin Dagsland, pertaining to the number of photographs

 4     that he did by getting screen caps from the footage and giving them

 5     numbers and providing some comments, in the statement as it has been

 6     written, and that has to do with the 23rd and the 25th of September,

 7     2001.

 8             You said on that occasion that the film was done by

 9     Mr. Sefedin Thaqi, the teacher.  You believe that he is still in Kosovo

10     and that he's still in the same line of business.  As regards the table,

11     you testified in the Milutinovic et al case, and when Judge Bonomy --

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to ask, if

13     possible, to show the witness a portion of the transcript.  That's page

14     50 -- 5401 of the transcript from the Milutinovic et al case, and if we

15     could zoom on that page, 5401, paragraphs 5, 7, 8, and 9, those lines,

16     rather, in the transcript.  I would just like to say that this is

17     D001-3962.  In fact, 3862.

18             [In English] It's page 50.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Although I do have information about this, I

20     would just like to ask Dr. Loshi if he reads and understands English

21     well.

22        A.   Yes, I do.  The last time I witnessed I spoke in English, so I

23     can recognise my words.  It's not a problem.

24        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  We have to do this because this is a new and

25     separate case.  My question about this page is -- well, you told

Page 780

 1     Judge Bonomy that you recognised all the words, that there is a comment

 2     by the investigator and that not all of those comments were given by him

 3     and not all the information was given by him or you, and especially not

 4     the words that are contained in the columns.  That's what you said.  And

 5     you go on to explain that it's possible that the investigator himself

 6     provided those descriptions, you see that, and that he obtained them from

 7     another witness, not from you.

 8             And you told us yesterday - that's in the transcript - that you

 9     provided the comments that are contained in the columns but that you

10     can't remember now because a long time had passed.  You talked about the

11     first name mentioned in the column, but because of the time lapse you

12     cannot recall.  So how come there is this discrepancy between what you

13     said yesterday and what you said at that time?

14        A.   There is no discrepancy.  It's only the way I said things.

15     Before I did not have the list before me when I explained it.  I am not

16     an investigator, and I don't know how they work.  When I came here and

17     did the proofing, I asked the Prosecutor to give me again the contested

18     part to see, the part that was discussed the last time I was here when I

19     witnessed.  And I was clear about what I said.  I say that there were

20     only two soldiers of the KLA, while here it appears as if there were an

21     additional two.  The truth is that there were only two soldiers of whom

22     one was wearing uniform and the other was in civilian clothes.

23             Well, with regard to the columns, the description of the bodies

24     was done by the investigator himself in most of the cases, and I think

25     that's normal because we viewed the tape together.  I helped him with the

Page 781

 1     identification and other things, but, however, the way people looked in

 2     the photographs, on the monitor, he described them.  I agreed with his

 3     description and signed everything.

 4             So I don't think you can contest this.  There was a confusion the

 5     last time, in the last trial, and now I can explain it in detail, if you

 6     want, if you wish.  It was suggested that two people, one of them had a

 7     military jacket on or a military coat, [in English] which in fact the

 8     military court, military jacket, not necessarily presents the KLA soldier

 9     or any soldier at all.  So I was confused that if somebody is suggesting

10     me that what has been said about these two people as members of KLA, that

11     was not true.  They were not members of KLA.  And I -- I wished if

12     Prosecutor or yourself, if you have those pictures, to show them to the

13     Judge and to show to me and so everyone can see them, that they don't

14     look like soldiers.  They're just like civilians.

15             [Interpretation] I'll continue in Albanian.  This is just because

16     of the digression I had to make.  I wanted to explain that concrete

17     situation.

18        Q.   Thank you.  But what stuck in my memory and what I wanted to ask

19     you about, why I wanted to get a brief and precise answer -- well, I got

20     it, but it was not specific enough.  It pertains to your argument.  What

21     you told us that all the comments in the columns where the people of

22     their identities are described, that this is something that you did.  And

23     here you say something that is completely different, and this is why I

24     had to ask you this.

25             Now I would like to ask you --

Page 782

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I won't have any other questions

 2     on this, but I would like to ask the usher:  The page is 5402 -- no,

 3     5403, so right after this document, and that would be page 51.  Could we

 4     please look at that, and I would like to show this to the witness.

 5        Q.   Now, my question is this:  You state here that the only thing

 6     that you had to do with the table is that you were asked to sign it, you

 7     had a look at it, and then you signed it.  We can look at the broader

 8     context of your statement.  It particularly pertains to the person called

 9     Ajet Beqiri.  That's paragraphs 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18.  That's where it

10     ends.  So you simply state here that you signed the record and that this

11     was all done by an investigator, and that you knew very little about it.

12     You actually knew nothing about it.  You stated something differently

13     yesterday, so please could you just briefly comment on it.

14        A.   The last time I testified, I did not look into the details of the

15     columns, and a long time had elapsed from 2001 when he came to Canada to

16     2006, five years had elapsed, and I dealt with other things in my life.

17     So later on, when I looked at these lists more carefully, last week I

18     mean, I saw that the comments are mine but the descriptions are the

19     investigator's descriptions, where the people have been described, how

20     they were dressed and so on.  I, of course, accept this as my testimony

21     and as my statement, but the last time I was confused.

22             [In English] If somebody is suggesting me that there were two

23     more soldiers in addition to two others I just mentioned, Ajet Beqiri and

24     Zaim Bajrami, that is not true.  So if somebody else wants to put two

25     names here, then it's not -- it's not something that has to do with my

Page 783

 1     testimony at all.  But later on I figured out that it just -- it's a

 2     matter of misunderstanding.  So the description has been done by the

 3     investigator of The Hague Tribunal, while the comments have been done by

 4     myself.  And I take this as my testimony, and I signed it.  There is

 5     nothing to dispute here, as far as myself is concerned at least.

 6        Q.   Well, this is completely unclear to me, so I'm asking you why is

 7     it that you state this for the first time ten years after all this

 8     happened?  Well, okay, 2001.  Not ten but eight years.  Why did you not

 9     say that when you testified in the Milutinovic case?  Why did you

10     describe things in a completely different way, saying that you did not

11     know anything about the document more or less?  And now you say that all

12     the comments are yours.  Is it possible that eight years after the events

13     your memory is so much fresher, and it was not better two years before?

14     So that's not logical at all.

15        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.  If my memory had been as fresh now as it

16     was eight years ago, yes, that would not be logical.  But I will explain.

17     The first time that I looked at this list in detail as a witness --

18     because before I came here as a witness, but I didn't think that I had to

19     look at everything in detail.  However, you, as Defence, are asking me

20     questions, and from the previous experiences I thought that it would be

21     better for me to look at everything I had said and signed.

22             Well, in the Milosevic trial, the Prosecutor suggested that my

23     witness statement included something by chance, something else; however,

24     this had nothing to do with what the Prosecutor suggested.  It had

25     nothing to do with my testimony.  It just had to do with something I

Page 784

 1     failed to analyse before I came here.

 2             You can see for yourself here [in English] and see in 2002 what

 3     The Hague Prosecutor said about this case, and see that he was -- he was

 4     saying that there has been something else added to his testimony by

 5     chance, like not intentionally, and stuff like that.  And that's why I

 6     was confused.  So I thought when this question was put to me, then I

 7     thought, oh, probably this is something that belonged to that part that

 8     the Prosecutor was suggesting years ago in Milosevic trial.  This is my

 9     answer about this, and I believe it makes sense.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Dr. Loshi, I will not take your word for it that it makes sense.

12     Logical errors that reveal the truth occur often in testimony, and this

13     is what happened to you.  You said, "I analysed the list this time."  Why

14     would you need to analyse it when you, yourself, provided the comments,

15     when you took part in it, when you know all of it?  You will remember

16     that at any time if you did that, and you didn't, because if you had then

17     the tone and the spirit of your testimony in the Milutinovic case would

18     have been so different from what you're testifying to today.  You will

19     agree with me that you analysed it this time, and you were not called

20     here to analyse it but to testify.  Thank you.  If you have a comment, I

21     will gladly hear it.

22        A.   [Interpretation] I did give my explanation, and you made a

23     comment on it.  You can comment however you like.  My duty here is to

24     present the facts and the Judges will analyse them.

25        Q.   Mr. Loshi, my next question has to do with the bodies that you

Page 785

 1     filmed there.  Do you know for a fact that all the bodies were found --

 2     that were found there, that they were really found there, that their

 3     lives ended there, or were there bodies that had been brought in from

 4     other places?

 5        A.   The majority of the bodies were found in the two big groups and

 6     there was another smaller group, so in total three groups.  I never

 7     counted the bodies myself, I think I mentioned that before; however, I

 8     gave a number, an approximate number, from 110 to 120 people that were

 9     killed.  There were people who escaped, people who had wounds which were

10     very heavy wounds, but they were able to move a little further until they

11     died in another place, and they were found where they died.

12             There were people who were brought from Izbica, again, but they

13     were killed a little further; for example, somebody was killed in the

14     mountain or in a meadow.  However, all of them were killed in Izbica.

15             For example, when the tape starts, you asked me, Why are you

16     saying this is not your part?  The person who is seen there lying down

17     dead, this is a person who was killed by the Serb forces in

18     Sefedin Thaqi's house, and his house was burnt by the Serb forces.  His

19     body was brought to Izbica because it's very close.  It's about 500 or

20     600 metres away.  So it was logical that all the people who were killed

21     on that day, to be brought and buried there.  So this is the body that is

22     seen in -- on the tape.  However, I say that this is not part of the

23     Izbica massacre there.  This person, however, was buried there, in

24     Izbica.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I think that because of the flow

Page 786

 1     of time, to have a break.  But before that I would like to ask the

 2     Trial Chamber to admit into evidence the two pages that I quoted from,

 3     the pages in the Milutinovic et al case, the transcript in that case,

 4     page 5401 and page 5403.  I've already provided the D number.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  The second page was 5403, was it?

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I had it as 5402.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Let me check.

 9     It won't take long, but I do believe it's 5403.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  I've been told that it was 3.  You are correct,

11     Mr. Djordjevic.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Those two pages will be received as

14     the one exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00024, Your Honours.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to continue my

17     cross-examination after the break.  It won't take long.  But now I think

18     it's a convenient time for a break.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will adjourn and resume at 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Loshi, we are going back to the month of June when, in 1999,

25     you returned to Tirana and when, according to your statement, you met up

Page 787

 1     with a representative of an American organisation called the WITNESS, and

 2     you said that you got a camera from them.  Could you please explain the

 3     details to us in reference to your contacts with this organisation?  What

 4     do you know about this organisation?  How did you get in touch with them,

 5     and what were the reasons that led them to give you this camera?  What

 6     else did they give you, if anything, and what kind of contacts did you

 7     have with them afterwards?  The question is a rather wide-ranging one,

 8     but it does merit an answer, doesn't it?

 9        A.   This is an organisation, though I've forgotten the details and

10     information about it now.  I think it's a humanitarian organisation

11     called WITNESS.  It's seat is in the US, in New York, as far as I recall.

12     The meeting with them was initiated by them.  At the time we met the

13     bombing was still ongoing in Kosova, and from what they had seen from the

14     media about the massacre at Izbica, they were quite enthusiastic to meet

15     me.  And they wanted to find other people as well who were interested to

16     enter Kosova and film similar massacres or other things that were going

17     on during the war there and afterwards provide this organisation with a

18     recording.

19             There was an agreement for these people to be paid afterwards.  I

20     don't remember the amount they were supposed to receive.  And I don't

21     know whether this agreement was realised in the end, because the bombing

22     was still going on.  The Serb forces, military and police, were not

23     giving up, so it was impossible for me to enter Kosova.

24             In the meantime they provided two or three colleagues of mine

25     with cameras, too, because they, themselves, did not want to take the

Page 788

 1     risk of going in, because during the bombing campaign in Kosova, the

 2     Serbian authorities did not allow a single foreign media to follow the

 3     developments there.

 4             Their interest was simply to get information.  I think it was an

 5     organisation for protecting human rights, so that's why they provided us

 6     with cameras and tapes.  So when I went eventually to Kosova, I took this

 7     opportunity to make some filming.  I sent them the tape with the massacre

 8     at Padalishte, what I mentioned earlier, and I didn't give them any other

 9     material because that was of no interest to them.  Then the war ended and

10     this organisation was on its own then.

11             So these were recordings from Kosova during the NATO campaign.  I

12     promised to enter Kosova, and I attempted to enter Kosova, but this was

13     impossible without placing my life in danger.  It was dangerous for

14     everyone who tried to enter Kosova from Albania at that time.  So I

15     didn't go into Kosova, but I did after the bombing on the 20th of June,

16     and on the 23rd I made the recordings that we saw yesterday here.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Loshi.  Can you tell us the name of the person

18     from this organisation called WITNESS that you got in touch with?  And

19     could you tell us when you were given this camera, what kind of a camera

20     it was, and whether you took upon yourself some kind of obligation in

21     respect to the technical equipment that you received from this person.

22        A.   This person was a female.  I don't remember her name.  She was a

23     representative of this organisation based in Tirana at the time.  We

24     spoke, exchanged information.  We received instructions from her for our

25     work.  She laid out the conditions to us and the obligation of the

Page 789

 1     organisation towards us.

 2             The camera was the type with a tape.  I think at the time there

 3     still were not -- there were no cameras of nowadays available.  This was

 4     a camera with the smallest size of tapes, a Sony make, a hand-held

 5     camera, Sony make.  I have the camera with me here, and I can offer the

 6     Tribunal to see it, to view it, if they so wish.

 7        Q.   You mentioned, and I didn't ask you about this, under what

 8     circumstances were you working and what kind of instructions did you

 9     receive from this woman?

10        A.   The instructions were the following:  We were supposed to record

11     wherever possible, record massacres, what I did at Izbica, and provide

12     them with the recordings.  And they were supposed to pay us for every

13     recording that we were going to make.  I don't know the amount, whether

14     it was 1.000 dollars or 2.000 dollars.  I think it was 2.000 dollars per

15     tape.  Actually, not per tape but per incident.  But we didn't manage to

16     fulfil this agreement.  We didn't receive any payment.  I did take the

17     camera, and I did send them the recordings of the Padalishte incident,

18     and then we agreed that I keep the camera as a compensation for the

19     recording, for the tape.

20        Q.   May I conclude that you sent that organisation your footage from

21     Padaliste as well?

22        A.   Yes, I sent them a copy.  I sent her a copy.  I transferred the

23     recording to another tape, and I sent them a copy.  The original is with

24     me.  This happened after the war, and this is just to justify that they

25     gave me the camera as a compensation for sending them this tape.

Page 790

 1     However, the tape that I brought here with me, here I didn't provide

 2     anyone with that tape, only the Tribunal, the one that we saw yesterday.

 3     I sent them the copy by post, by mail, from Canada.  I believe they have

 4     it.  I didn't receive any confirmation from them, and I didn't have any

 5     further contacts with them.

 6        Q.   This is precisely what I wanted to ask you.  Why did you not

 7     submit copies of the footage we saw yesterday to this organisation called

 8     WITNESS?  As far as I understood things, in order to receive any money

 9     you had to have a certificate to the effect that you had carried out the

10     duty that you had agreed upon with the representative of that

11     organisation.  Am I not right?

12        A.   The massacre at Padalishte, I managed to record the decomposed

13     bodies of the victims.  When I went there, the bodies were still lying

14     down there.  So this was of greater interest to the representatives of

15     this organisation, whereas the recordings at Izbica didn't show anything

16     else but ground that used to be a gravesite but that was leveled

17     afterwards.  So they didn't take interest into this.  I even thought that

18     the tape would not be interesting for the Tribunal either.

19             During my testimony here at the Milosevic -- Milutinovic trial, I

20     did mention the fact that I do have the recordings that I made in Izbica

21     in June 1999 upon my return from Albania, and then the Judge asked the

22     Prosecution if they had this tape at their disposal.  They said they

23     didn't.  And then I intervened by saying that I was never asked to

24     provide the Prosecution with this tape and that I was ready to do that.

25     So then the Prosecution asked me to give them the tape, and that's what I

Page 791

 1     did.  I believe I explained in general the idea why this was done.

 2        Q.   Why did you do that, nevertheless, for the first time in the

 3     Milutinovic trial, seven years after you took the footage?

 4        A.   It is a matter of a context of a conversation.  As a witness

 5     here, now, you're asking me questions; I'm answering your questions.  So

 6     you might have noticed that I've provided you with more information,

 7     maybe things that I didn't mention in the past.  Depending on the

 8     questions, on the context of the discussion, an event can be described

 9     from different angles by the same person, and now you're given an

10     opportunity to look at the truth from all its angles, because I've come

11     here to testify for three times here.  However, the truth never changes;

12     it always remains the same.  What happened has happened, and that is a

13     fact.

14        Q.   Would you like to answer my question.  Why did you do that only

15     after seven years?  For the first time it was in the Milutinovic case.

16     That was when you mentioned the cassette for the very first time.

17        A.   As I said, I didn't think of it as an important document.  I

18     don't consider it an important documentation even now.  This is a

19     recording of the terrain in Izbica after the ground was leveled by the

20     Serb forces and a recording that I made after the NATO forces entered

21     Kosova on the 23rd of June, 1999.

22             During that time, I saw some tables there and I realised from the

23     people I spoke to there that there had been people from different

24     international organisations.  I even think that people from the Tribunal

25     had been there before me.  So I didn't see it as an important thing to

Page 792

 1     mention.

 2             The trial admitted it as a document, received it as a document,

 3     as a proof that I was the person who did the recording and that this

 4     recording was made in 1999.

 5             So I don't know what other things to add.  The footage depicts

 6     some gloves, some wood planks, some other items.  You can tell that there

 7     had been bodies on that location; however, there are no other evidence --

 8     there's no other evidence that may be of further use.  I have no other

 9     comment to add.

10        Q.   I would now like to ask you to tell us the following:  I viewed

11     this footage very carefully.  We can see you speaking in Albanian, in all

12     fairness.  Who actually held the camera in his or her hands and actually

13     filmed this, while you were speaking?

14        A.   While I am speaking, that's the beginning of the recording, I've

15     mentioned it earlier that the person who is holding the camera is

16     Demush Dragaj, my friend.  I went there with him.  When I went to Kosova

17     from Albania, I didn't have a car.  I went to his house in Leqina and

18     asked him to take me by car to the location in Izbica.

19             So I gave him the camera, asked him to record me in front of the

20     gravesite so that it is clearly seen who is making the report, and he's

21     holding the camera.  But when you don't see my face on the camera, during

22     that time, it's me who is holding the camera.  And you can hear my voice.

23     You can tell from the voice that it is very close to the camera, while

24     the other voice is a little bit more distant, and it's Demush's voice.

25     He doesn't speak a lot on the tape, but I think you can hear his voice on

Page 793

 1     several occasions.  So when I asked him, for example, What is this?  What

 2     is that?  That voice is mine, and I'm the person holding the camera at

 3     that moment.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  My next question -- there are only going to be two

 5     more questions, and that is going to conclude my cross-examination.

 6             So my first question has to do with the authenticity of the

 7     footage in relation to the date when it was made.  Is there some

 8     compelling evidence that would prove the date when this was taken?  Was

 9     it exactly June 1999?

10             And my second question:  As regards the film that had the working

11     title "The Massacre in Izbica" - this concludes my cross-examination

12     now - all the scenes the alleged massacre in Izbica were filmed by using

13     a close-up, without actually filming the entire area, so it is impossible

14     to conclude where this was actually being filmed.  We cannot see any

15     landmarks that would show where the footage was actually being taken.

16     That's my question.  And this concludes your cross-examination, and I

17     would like to thank you.

18        A.   With regard to your first question, my sentence uttered on the

19     tape is, "We are in Izbica, 23rd of June, 1999, 1215 is the time, 15

20     minutes after noon."  This is my opening line when the recording starts,

21     and then I explain what I'm doing.  The reason why you don't see

22     subtitles on the screen is that we agreed with the WITNESS organisation

23     for the dates not to appear on the camera itself, but that we mentioned

24     the date.  So we deleted the dates from the memory, and I spoke and

25     mentioned the dates.  So the subtitle and -- subtitle feature and the

Page 794

 1     memory feature for the date were deactivated.  This is the answer to your

 2     first question.

 3             Your second question has to do with the close-up recording.  It

 4     is true that the bodies were recorded from close up, and this is because

 5     we were not professional cameramen, recorders, and I didn't know how to

 6     give instructions to do a proper recording.  The idea was to record the

 7     bodies and show the world what Serbia committed in Izbica on the 28th of

 8     March.  So our aim was not to provide the best copy possible because we

 9     were not professional; neither was I, neither was he, the doctor.  We

10     just wanted to document the event, and in those circumstances we managed

11     to provide a footage that could at least translate to the opinion what

12     happened, that that was Izbica.

13             Then I went with the witnesses on the ground and did some

14     recordings on the ground where they were taken to for execution, and

15     there you can see in more details the valley and the area, which is

16     clearly Izbica.

17             A comparison was made later on, the American intelligence, when

18     they had my tape and when they mentioned it during my briefings, they

19     mentioned that they did an aerial photograph of the area, that they

20     analysed my tape and that they saw the objects on the ground, whether

21     they corresponded with their aerial pictures.  And they came to a

22     conclusion that that was Izbica, and then they could openly state to the

23     public that this was Izbica and that this massacre occurred in Izbica and

24     that the recording itself was made in Izbica.

25             During the bombing, during the war, the Serbian Television made a

Page 795

 1     different recording in a different village, presented the Serbs as if

 2     Albanians.  They spoke Albanian because they knew how to speak Albanian.

 3     And they alleged that that place was Izbica, that there was no fighting

 4     in Izbica, that nothing had happened there.  A long time has passed now,

 5     but I think that this material can be found on the internet, and you can

 6     see the aim of the Serbian propaganda of the time.  They wanted to deny

 7     the fact that the massacre happened, and my aim was to show the truth of

 8     what happened there.

 9        Q.   I'm not sure what propaganda you're referring to, Serbian or from

10     Kosovo.  That's why I'm --

11        A.   The Serbian Television.  The Serbian Television made a recording

12     during the bombing campaign.  Well, as a matter of fact, before this

13     cassette was issued, I was still in Izbica.  At that time I was able to

14     pass on the information about Izbica through the information services of

15     the KLA.  I managed to pass this information on that there was a massacre

16     in Izbica and 127 people were executed.  This was an information I gave

17     without any photos.  I told them that we did have the images, but because

18     of objective reasons it was impossible for them to be given to the public

19     opinion.  But in the future, in the near future, we hoped to do that.

20             That near future became true in a month or so when I went to

21     Albania; however, the public opinion was prepared for that.  They knew

22     about it.  The White House, NATO, the Hague Tribunal, and the media were

23     aware that somebody in Drenice had this tape, and this person will come

24     to Tirana one day and bring it.

25             And fortunately I managed to go to Tirana and take the tape with

Page 796

 1     me.  However, while I was in Izbica and I had not passed the tape on, the

 2     Serbian Television had recorded something else to say that what is being

 3     said about a massacre in Izbica is not true; it's a KLA propaganda, it's

 4     Albanian propaganda.  However, this was anti-propaganda that wanted to

 5     devalue and to say that it was not true that the massacre happened.  The

 6     fact is that it happened.  Serbia had surrounded Kosova so tightly that

 7     even the birds could not fly without the Serbs dictating them.

 8             That's why they prepared that programme, which, for me, was

 9     ridiculous.  They took these Serbs, and they spoke on behalf of the

10     Albanians.  I think that Serb Television must have those materials now,

11     and you can bring them to the trial, and you can ask them what they did

12     with that.  I don't have the material, though.

13        Q.   As you noticed, Dr. Loshi, I'm not interrupting you, although

14     your answers are always outside the context of the direct questions that

15     I put to you.  However, I cannot hold that against you.  I just want to

16     ask you or, rather, to remind you about something that has to do with the

17     footage you took in Izbica.  We all know full well, and you repeated it

18     to us just now, was to familiarise the public with the crimes of the

19     Serbian police, army, whoever, in relation to the crimes committed in

20     Izbica, as you had put it.

21             My question is the following:  Since there is this journalistic

22     rule of who, what, where, why, what should be seen has to be there.  What

23     we could see were the corpses.  Why was the broader context not there so

24     that we would be sure of the location where this was taken?  Because

25     there's not a single house, mountaintop, anything that would clearly show

Page 797

 1     that this was in Izbica.  That was my question, and your answer was

 2     because you're an amateur.  And I'm not going to ask you more about that.

 3             I'm going to thank you for your answers, for the answers that you

 4     have provided to us, because the truth, no matter what it is deserves an

 5     answer.  Thank you.  No further questions.

 6        A.   Just one thing.  I wanted to add one sentence here.  You said

 7     that the houses cannot be seen here.  Well, if you see the graves, that

 8     image, you can see the houses and Izbica environment, while where the

 9     dead people are lying, that is a meadow, and there are no houses there.

10     And that's why you don't see the houses.  However, I will repeat again

11     that we were amateurs, and maybe we should have done it better.

12        Q.   Very well.  Since you've mentioned the cemetery, there were

13     freshly dug graves just before the funeral of these people.  Let this

14     really be my last question for today.

15             Who were the people, do you know, who were buried in the graves

16     that can be seen that were actually there before these graves that were

17     dug up subsequently?  That can be seen on satellite footage, but I'm

18     asking you about that:  Can you tell us - let that be my last question -

19     who were the people who were buried in the graves before these people?

20        A.   Just a second.  I am looking at the question on the monitor.  So

21     the question is:  Who was buried here before these people?  Which people

22     do you mean?

23        Q.   Well, that's what I'm asking you.  Do you know that?

24        A.   Before?

25        Q.   Before these people, there were other fresh graves there.  Can

Page 798

 1     you tell us, who was buried in those fresh graves?

 2        A.   No, no.  There were no fresh graves there.  These were graves

 3     that were dug on the 31st of March, most of them.  About seven or eight

 4     of the graves were opened on the 1st of April.  So there was no cemetery

 5     there before.  This was not a gravesite.  [In English] This was not a

 6     gravesite.  [Interpretation] So this was not a gravesite before.

 7        Q.   All right, all right.  Thank you.  Thank you very much for your

 8     answer.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10     Let me tell you, Your Honours, the Honourable Trial Chamber, that this

11     completes my cross-examination of Mr. Loshi.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.

13             Ms. Kravetz, do you have any re-examination?

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you, just a few questions.

15             Could we have Exhibit P291 up on the screen again.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I -- Your Honour, may I ask for

17     a very short break, please, if possible.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  The court officer will assist you, as

19     happened yesterday.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

25        Q.   Sir, do you have the exhibit before you, 291.  You were asked

Page 799

 1     some questions by my learned colleague regarding how this was compiled,

 2     and you told us that the comments that are included in the comment field

 3     in his table we have before us were provided by you.  Now, having

 4     recently had the opportunity to review this exhibit, are you satisfied

 5     that the information contained in the comments field is accurate?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now look at page 18 of this exhibit.

 8        Q.   While that is being brought up, during cross-examination you

 9     mentioned that during your previous testimony in the Milutinovic case

10     there had been some confusion regarding the description of two men, and

11     it was suggested to you that these two men were members of the KLA

12     because the description referred to them wearing a military jacket or a

13     military overcoat.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we zoom in on that page.  Could we please

15     zoom in.

16        Q.   Are you able to see those descriptions on this page, Mr. Loshi?

17     I don't know if we have --

18        A.   No.  It hasn't been zoomed in for me.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Just the English for the witness, if we could zoom

20     in.

21             THE WITNESS: [In English] Yeah, please, the English version.

22     Yeah.

23             "Man, grey/black sweater, military green jacket"?

24             MS. KRAVETZ:

25        Q.   Yes.  Are those the entries -- that was one of the entries that

Page 800

 1     was put to you in the previous case.

 2        A.   Yes.  And the other one:  "Man, bluish jacket, military green

 3     overcoat, covered in a grey/red woolen blanket."  These are the two

 4     cases.

 5        Q.   Now, was the information in those two entries provided by you, or

 6     was this provided by the investigator?

 7        A.   No.  The information was, as I said, that the description was

 8     done by the investigator, looking at the pictures on the screen, and then

 9     typed in -- typing it down on the paper.  So that was done by him, and he

10     was asking if I had a comment in addition to the descriptions.  I can't

11     remember.  Sometimes I may have helped him in descriptions as well, but I

12     just can't remember it because we were for a few days together.  But the

13     comments were mine, and these comments, by the way, were done according

14     to what I saw and according to what I heard when he was playing the tape

15     in front of me.

16        Q.   We see that next to these two entries there were no comments.

17     Does that mean that you were unable to identify either of these two

18     persons or provide any information in that regard?

19        A.   That's correct.  I was not able to identify these people.  But if

20     you let me explain, I was a little bit confused about this military

21     green -- military -- any military -- military green jacket and military

22     green coat in these persons, in these two persons, and I was suggesting

23     by the Defence of Milutinovic, and six -- and six -- the trial of six,

24     that these people belonged to KLA.  So now I understand that this is just

25     a description of their clothing; it doesn't -- it doesn't mean that these

Page 801

 1     people -- because if you look at these pictures, you can see easily that

 2     these people have -- didn't have KLA uniforms, and these were not KLA

 3     soldiers.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I think that clarifies the matter.  Moving on to a

 5     different issue now, you were asked whether the bodies that you filmed at

 6     Izbica that appeared in your short video included bodies brought from

 7     other places, and you said that the majority of the bodies were found in

 8     two big groups and then there was a smaller third group.  Now, were these

 9     bodies in these two big groups and the smaller group filmed at the

10     location where you found them, you and the others who were participating

11     in this film?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Were these the bodies that we saw yesterday when we were viewing

14     the images from your video?

15        A.   Excuse me?  Once again.

16        Q.   Were these bodies, the two large groups and the smaller group,

17     the bodies that we saw yesterday when we were --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did any of these three groups include any bodies that were

20     brought by you or by others from other places?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further

24     questions for this witness.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Doctor, you'll be pleased to know that that

Page 802

 1     concludes your questioning in this trial.  The Chamber would express its

 2     gratitude for your attendance here and the assistance you've given.  And

 3     you are now, of course, free to return to your normal life and

 4     activities.  We will now arrange for the court officer to show you out,

 5     and thank you once again.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a pleasure to be able to

 7     answer the questions of both parties in this trial, and I hope that I

 8     helped the Judges with my answers.  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

11             MR. NEUNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

12     everyone in and around the courtroom.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. NEUNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

15     everyone in and around the courtroom.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you ready with your next witness?

17             MR. NEUNER:  Yes, we are ready, Your Honours.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Your Honours.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Before my learned colleague,

21     Mr. Neuner, begins the examination-in-chief, we received the list of

22     exhibits that will probably be admitted into evidence, that will be

23     tendered, but we would first like to look at their 65 ter list.  The

24     number is P00023.  It's a map of a part of Kosovo.  And the routes that

25     the refugees took as they moved in Kosovo have already been drawn into

Page 803

 1     this map.  We believe that the witness himself should make those

 2     markings, should indicate where the refugees were moving, and not to be

 3     merely shown a map with the markings already there, markings indicating

 4     where the refugee columns were moving.

 5             And this will be and is at issue in this case, and this is why I

 6     would like to -- not to admit this exhibit.  I am not opposed to the

 7     admission of this part of Kosovo, the map of this part of Kosovo, with

 8     Orahovac, Prizren, and Djakovica.  I don't think it would be proper and

 9     it would be, in fact, tantamount to leading the witness, because the

10     witness would then be compelled to confirm and to provide an answer that

11     is already contained in the map.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

13             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, I have heard what the Defence said,

14     and at this point in time, the document P23 has been put on the list of

15     exhibits eventually to be shown, but this doesn't mean that the exhibit,

16     indeed, will be shown.  So I would suggest that my learned friend can put

17     his objection on the record if the Prosecution intends to show the

18     document, which it's not certain at this point in time.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, if you seek to do it, Mr. Neuner, the

20     objection is made, and there is some validity in it.

21             MR. NEUNER:  I will try to elicit answers from the witness that I

22     don't have to use that particular exhibit, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Or you may need to show him a blank map, if you

24     feel some depiction is necessary.

25             MR. NEUNER:  Yeah, we have thought about this alternative course

Page 804

 1     of action, and there is 65 ter number 0035 also on this list and there --

 2     this is -- there are some documents -- excuse me --

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We leave it to you, Mr. Neuner, to decide what to

 4     do about it.  Just be aware that there is an objection to your use of

 5     this Rule 65 ter exhibit.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Would you please read aloud the

 9     affirmation that is shown to you on the card.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I solemnly declare that I

11     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  LIZANE MALAJ

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

15                           Examination by Mr. Neuner:

16        Q.   Good morning.  Could you state your name for the record, please.

17        A.   Lizane Malaj.

18        Q.   And, Ms. Malaj, you were born on the 16th of April, 1963, in

19     Guska, Djakovica municipality, were you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you're a Kosovo Albanian of Catholic faith.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in 1982, at the age of 19 you married Vat Malaj.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you moved to Korenica then, where your husband worked as a

Page 805

 1     farmer.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. NEUNER:  Could we please have 65 ter Exhibit 615.02 pulled up

 4     on the screen.

 5        Q.   And while that is happening, Ms. Malaj, how many families were

 6     living in Korenica?

 7        A.   As far as I know there were 70 houses at the time.

 8        Q.   And roughly how many persons were living in Korenica?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.

10        Q.   But it's not a huge town; it's rather a village, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes, it is a village.

12             MR. NEUNER:  I'm waiting for the exhibit to pop up.  We just

13     would need one screen here.

14        Q.   Could you mark, with the assistance of the usher, where your

15     village, Korenica, is located, please, by drawing an arrow towards your

16     village.

17        A.   Yes.  The village of Korenice is here.

18        Q.   Can you draw an arrow, please.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   I don't think it came out as I expected.

22             MR. NEUNER:  The witness has, for the record, underlined one of

23     the names in which Korenica was written on this map.

24        Q.   Could you mark where your family courtyard was in Korenica,

25     please, your family house, by encircling the location.

Page 806

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you mark a little bit wider circle because --

 3             MR. NEUNER:  Can we maybe remove, because I think it's not very

 4     legible, can we maybe start afresh by just removing the markings made.

 5        Q.   And if you now could mark a little bit broader circle at the

 6     location where you believe your family compound or your family courtyard

 7     is.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And can you mark a 1 next to this, please, the number

10     1.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that your brother Nikoll Kabashi was

13     also living with his family in another house in this family courtyard?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And by March 1999, how many children did you have?

16        A.   I had five children.

17        Q.   What's the name of your oldest child?

18        A.   Blerim Malaj.

19        Q.   I want to take you now to the tensions in 1998.  Can you tell us,

20     when did you see for the first time Serbian forces in your area?

21        A.   In the spring, in May.

22        Q.   In which year?

23        A.   1998.

24        Q.   And what did you see?

25        A.   We saw tanks, AP Cs, Pinzgauers.

Page 807

 1        Q.   Can you mark on this map where you saw these tanks, APCs, and

 2     Pinzgauers, please.

 3        A.   On the road from Gjakove to Junik.

 4        Q.   Could you mark the location, please.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  For the record, the witness has marked four lines

 7     next to a grey road.

 8        Q.   And can you mark a 2 next to these four lines, please.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What else did you observe in the spring of 1998, near your house?

11        A.   Near my house I saw some infantry soldiers or forces,

12     paramilitaries, police.

13        Q.   Could you mark for us the location of these forces, please, by

14     drawing a circle and a 3 next to this.

15        A.   Yes.  Somewhere here, then.  This is the house and ...

16             MR. NEUNER:  Since both circles are so close to each other, for

17     the record, the witness has marked above the circle which was mentioned

18     with number 1 another circle and added the number 3 to it.

19        Q.   And in the summer of 1998, where did you stay overnight?

20        A.   We usually went to Guska, which is the neighbouring village.  The

21     men left home and went to the mountains above our houses.

22        Q.   Why did you leave and the men leave the family houses in the

23     summer of 1998 at night?

24        A.   For protection reasons.

25        Q.   Protection against what?

Page 808

 1        A.   Protection from the Serbian forces.

 2        Q.   What were the Serbian forces doing?

 3        A.   At that time almost nothing happened in our village, but we left

 4     because we could see forces there that were on the main road, and they

 5     were shooting from different positions.

 6        Q.   Shooting at what?

 7        A.   They were shooting at Ramoc, Nec, and other villages that were

 8     close to ours.

 9        Q.   Can you mark Ramoc and Nec.  Please encircle Ramoc first.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   And mark a 4 next to it.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And now Nec, please, and mark a 5 next to it.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   I want to move on to the events in 1999 now, to be precise on

16     Easter Monday.  What information did you learn at the end of March 1999?

17        A.   On the Easter Monday, it was the 4th of April Milutin Prascevic

18     came --

19        Q.   Can I just stop you here.  Because I will come to the 4th of

20     April in a second.  I was asking you about the end of March, a few days

21     before that, 4th of April.  Do you remember what happened at the end of

22     March 1999?

23        A.   Yes.  At that time Dragan Micunovic ordered a 15-year-old boy

24     named Gjon Prelaj to separate men from the women, to tell them to leave

25     for the mountains, and they wanted to move us to different locations by

Page 809

 1     buses and other vehicles.  But on the same day the men were again ordered

 2     to return to their homes.  My son Blerim Malaj went with him.  He was

 3     forced to go with him.

 4        Q.   Can you just explain who was ordered?  You said "us."  Who was

 5     ordered by Dragan Micunovic?

 6        A.   The villages of Korenice, all the men.  Those who were in the

 7     village, he ordered them to leave the village, the men, and the women

 8     were ordered to remain there in their houses and later to be directed to

 9     different locations.

10        Q.   And who was Dragan Micunovic?

11        A.   He was the only one in our village.  We had good relations with

12     him, all of the villagers, until he gave us the order to leave.

13        Q.   Can you explain, you said he was the only one in our village.

14     What ethnicity did Dragan Micunovic have?

15        A.   He was a Serb.

16        Q.   And what ethnicity did the other villagers in Korenica have?

17        A.   They were Albanians.

18        Q.   And what was the position of Dragan Micunovic in March 1999?

19        A.   He was in the Yugoslav Army.  He was an officer, but I don't know

20     his exact position.

21        Q.   Okay.  And what happened on Easter Monday, the 4th of April,

22     1999?

23        A.   On that day Milutin Prascevic, with other police colleagues, came

24     to the transformer in Korenice, near Engjull Berisha's house and went to

25     the house of the Dedaj family, and there they ordered the people to leave

Page 810

 1     within three hours.  This is what we did.  We followed their order.

 2        Q.   Can you, first of all, tell us who is Milutin Prascevic?

 3        A.   He was a Serb.

 4        Q.   I note the transcript has two spellings for his family name.  Can

 5     you clarify -- or can you spell his last name.

 6        A.   Milutin Prascevic.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And what was his job?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I simply know that he was a policeman, but I don't

 9     know his function.

10        Q.   Why do you think he was a policeman?

11        A.   He was a policeman.  He was to my house -- he came to my house

12     with another policeman wearing a uniform, armed, and ordered us to leave

13     the house and leave the cars behind, only take the tractors with us.  And

14     we followed his orders.

15        Q.   Can you tell me, what was Mr. Prascevic wearing when he came to

16     your house?  What clothes?

17        A.   Blue.

18        Q.   And were these civilian clothes or ...

19        A.   No, no.  It was a uniform.

20        Q.   And did you notice anything else on what Mr. Prascevic or his

21     colleagues were wearing?

22        A.   The weapons.  He was armed.

23        Q.   And what arms did the gentleman wear?

24        A.   Automatic rifles, everything that they wear as personal weapons.

25     I don't know all their names.  I know that this one, the automatic rifle

Page 811

 1     or the machine-gun, he was wearing it on his arm and the pistol was on

 2     his side.

 3        Q.   Did the gentleman tell you why you were ordered to leave that

 4     day?

 5        A.   He told us to leave the place because we were Albanians.  For

 6     what other reason?

 7        Q.   And where did he tell you to go?

 8        A.   To Albania.

 9        Q.   And you mentioned before that the gentleman also went to other

10     houses inside Korenica.  What was the reaction of the villagers in

11     Korenica to these suggestions or orders?

12        A.   They started leaving their houses immediately.  A convoy was

13     immediately formed.

14        Q.   And how many persons were in that convoy?

15        A.   The entire village, I don't know the exact number.

16        Q.   Okay.  You mentioned before vehicles which you possessed.  What

17     vehicles did you take with you that day?

18        A.   We didn't dare take the cars with us.  We just took the tractor.

19        Q.   So at what point in time of the 4th of April, 1999, did the

20     convoy leave Korenica?

21        A.   On the same day at Suhadoll, a kilometre further, Aca Micunovic

22     came there with a colleague.  I don't know who the colleague was, but I

23     could recognise Aca.  He ordered us to go back to the village.

24        Q.   Can you just before answer my previous question.  At what point

25     in time did you leave Korenica?

Page 812

 1        A.   Sometime in the afternoon.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And then you went to Suhadoll.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you, looking at the map, indicate by encircling the location

 5     where Suhadoll is.

 6        A.   Suhadoll is here.

 7        Q.   You have drawn a circle on the grey street.  Can you mark a

 8     number 6 next to Suhadoll.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And who was Aca Micunovic?

11        A.   He was Dragan's brother.

12        Q.   Can you tell us what Aca Micunovic's job was?

13        A.   At that time he was a local policeman.

14        Q.   And where did he work?

15        A.   He was a village policeman.  I don't know where he worked.

16        Q.   And what happened following his announcements or his -- the

17     conversation?

18        A.   We returned to our houses and nothing happened to us until the

19     27th of April.

20        Q.   Okay.  What I want to know from you is when you had left on the

21     4th of April in the afternoon Korenica, did you and your family leave

22     voluntarily?

23        A.   No.  We were forced to.

24        Q.   Who forced you?

25        A.   Milutin Prascevic.

Page 813

 1        Q.   Did you know at the time in early 1999 that the NATO bombings had

 2     already started in Kosovo?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Had any of the NATO bombing affected your village, Korenica, by

 5     the 4th of April, 1999?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Was it because of NATO that you left the village on the afternoon

 8     of the 4th of April?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   I want to move on to the 27th of April, 1999.  What happened that

11     day?

12        A.   It was a horrible, horrible day.  It was a Tuesday.  At 5.00 in

13     the morning, the Serbian forces surrounded the village, the whole

14     village, early in the morning.  At 7.30 they came to my courtyard.

15        Q.   Can you just explain which village you're referring to.

16        A.   Korenice.

17        Q.   And who came at 7.30 to your courtyard?

18        A.   The Serb forces, soldiers, paramilitaries, policemen, all of

19     them.  They had ribbons on their arms.

20        Q.   What colour were the ribbons?

21        A.   Red.

22        Q.   And roughly how many men were coming to your courtyard?

23        A.   Thirty-five.  There were 35 around my house.

24        Q.   Okay.  And roughly how many men were wearing these red ribbons?

25        A.   I don't know the number, but there were many of them.

Page 814

 1        Q.   Okay.  What clothes did the gentlemen wear?

 2        A.   Blue camouflage, green camouflage, dark green.

 3        Q.   Was anybody in civilian clothes or only people in camouflage at

 4     your courtyard?

 5        A.   There was nobody in civilian clothes.  All of them were dressed

 6     in camouflage uniforms.

 7        Q.   And what language did the gentlemen speak?

 8        A.   Serbian.

 9        Q.   Can you describe what they wore on their faces, if anything.

10        A.   Some of them had masks; their faces were covered.  Some of them

11     had their faces painted, and some, normal.

12        Q.   And what weapons, if any, did the gentlemen wear?

13        A.   Automatic rifles, machine-guns, and I don't know all the names of

14     these weapons.  Whatever type of weapon there was and existed, they had

15     it.

16        Q.   And how did the gentlemen arrive to your courtyard?

17        A.   On tanks, Pinzgauer, and there was also on foot.

18        Q.   Can you describe the colour of the tanks or the Pinzgauers.

19        A.   There were green and blue, the two types.

20        Q.   Plain or camouflage?

21        A.   That I don't remember.  I was horrified.

22        Q.   Any markings, symbols, on the tanks or Pinzgauers?

23        A.   Some of them, the people, they had the red ribbons tied on their

24     arms.  This is what we noticed.

25        Q.   I was asking whether any symbols were marked on the vehicles with

Page 815

 1     which the gentlemen arrived.

 2        A.   The Serbian symbol.

 3        Q.   And what did the Serbian symbol say?  If you don't remember --

 4        A.   Their flag was on them, the flag of the former Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   So what happened when the gentlemen arrived?

 6        A.   My son, Blerim Malaj, at the time of their arrival was in the

 7     toilet outside.  They spotted him the first, immediately, and made him

 8     lie on the ground.  They were shouting and yelling.  My husband went out,

 9     and they told my husband to call on us, all of us, and tell us to come

10     outside, so this is what he did.  He called on us; we came all outside.

11     And when I was in the courtyard I saw my son lying on the ground, my son

12     Blerim.

13        Q.   If I can just stop you here.  How old was your son Blerim that

14     morning?

15        A.   Fifteen and a half.

16        Q.   Please carry on.

17        A.   I started to scream because they had made him lie down, and a

18     soldier or a policeman - I cannot describe him - he was holding him at

19     gunpoint, and he ordered my son to turn his head on the other side so

20     that he could not see me.  This is what my son did.  Then they stopped my

21     husband, my nephew, my brother --

22        Q.   Can I just stop you for a second, please.  You said a gentleman

23     held your son at gunpoint.  What did he have in his hands, this

24     gentleman?

25        A.   He had an automatic rifle, a weapon with a long barrel, and he

Page 816

 1     was holding that on my son's head.

 2        Q.   So he was very close to your son, in fact.

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  On his head, very close to him.

 4        Q.   What did the gentleman with the automatic rifle wear?

 5        A.   Blue camouflage.

 6        Q.   Then you mentioned already your husband.  Can you please

 7     continue?  I had interrupted you.

 8        A.   My husband Vat Malaj was also forced to lie on the ground.  There

 9     were three vehicles nearby; one car belongs to us and two to my brothers.

10     They asked for the keys, the car keys.  We didn't have them.  My

11     brother's cars, my husband and Arben Kabashi were forced to show them how

12     they can use the wires to start the car, and after that they were again

13     ordered to lay on the ground.

14        Q.   Meaning Vat Malaj and Arben Kabashi also were lying on the

15     ground, having been to the cars in the meantime?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What happened in relation to the house of your brother

18     Nikoll Kabashi?

19        A.   A policeman with a blue camouflage uniform went to that house,

20     opened the door -- broke down the door and forced Nikoll and all his

21     family out, asked for their personal documents.  Nikoll and Andrush

22     provided him with the -- their IDs, while Nikoll's wife, his daughters

23     and son, they were all ordered to go outside, while Nikoll and Andrush

24     were forced to lie on the ground.

25        Q.   Who was Andrush Kabashi?

Page 817

 1        A.   My nephew, my brother's son, Nikoll Kabashi's son.

 2        Q.   How old was he in 1999?

 3        A.   Eighteen, Andrush.

 4        Q.   So overall your family and Nikoll Kabashi's family were in the

 5     courtyard.  How many people were there, meaning Albanian -- Kosovo

 6     Albanian people?

 7        A.   Seventeen.

 8             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, I note the time.  Maybe this is a good

 9     point for the break.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will have a break now and resume in

11     half an hour.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm reminded, Mr. Neuner, before we break that

14     there hasn't been an exhibit made of the map that was marked.

15             MR. NEUNER:  Correct.  Your Honours, I was intending to ask the

16     witness at some later point in time to mark one additional circle on it.

17     That's why I didn't ask for it to be tendered now.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  The problem is that we are likely, then, to lose

19     all the present markings because of time delay.

20             MR. NEUNER:  Then I would ask that it be tendered now, Your

21     Honours.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00294, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have the break now and resume in

25     half an hour, at 1.00.

Page 818

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Neuner.

 4             MR. NEUNER:

 5        Q.   Before the break you told us that there were 17 Kosovo Albanians

 6     in your courtyard on the 27th of April, in the morning.  Could you tell

 7     me, had any of these 17 persons any weapons?

 8        A.   No, none of them.

 9        Q.   Were the 35 men who were coming to your courtyard searching for

10     weapons?

11        A.   No, they didn't search for weapons.

12        Q.   So what happened after Nikoll and Andrush and Arben Kabashi and

13     your husband, Vat, and your son Blerim were told to lay down?  What

14     happened next?

15        A.   We were ordered to leave the house and walk ourselves to Albania.

16        Q.   Who are you referring to by "we"?

17        A.   My family, the 17 of us, brothers, nephews.  Nikoll's family and

18     my husband's family, Arben's family.

19        Q.   Who, if anybody, stayed behind in the compound of your family, in

20     the courtyard?

21        A.   Only the five of them; my husband Vat, Blerim, Nikoll, Andrush

22     and Arben, because they were held there, nobody else.  And immediately

23     after that I heard the gun-shots and I heard screams, which was a scream

24     that was horrible, and it was my son's voice that I heard.

25        Q.   Can you mention the name of your -- the given name of your son?

Page 819

 1        A.   Blerim Malaj.

 2        Q.   And how far were you away when you heard the gun-shots and your

 3     son Blerim?

 4        A.   About 50 metres away.  I tried to go back but one of them did not

 5     let me return.

 6        Q.   Who did not let you return?

 7        A.   A policeman who was sitting on a tank.

 8        Q.   And why do you believe he was a policeman?

 9        A.   He was.  He was wearing blue clothes.  How do I know?  He said,

10     It's better for you to continue on your way.  He pointed the gun at me,

11     on my chest.

12        Q.   Can you just, coming back to the clothes he wore, clarify.  Were

13     they civilian clothes he was wearing?

14        A.   No.  It was a uniform.

15        Q.   And what exactly did he tell you?

16        A.   I tried to go back to the courtyard to see my son, my husband,

17     and he said, You'd better go with your children than go back and be

18     executed or killed.  One of the children who was with me, Bekim, he is

19     here, he took my hand and said, Please, mom, don't leave us alone.  Come

20     with us.  And because of the children I decided to go back.

21        Q.   And did the policeman tell you where to go?  Where to?

22        A.   He ordered me to go to Albania and not to go home.

23        Q.   What did you observe about your houses when you were trying to

24     look back?

25        A.   The houses were on fire.  I could see the smoke.  And the ones

Page 820

 1     that were lying on the ground, they had been executed.

 2        Q.   But you didn't see that they had been executed.

 3        A.   No, not at that moment when I was present.  But when I turned my

 4     back, immediately after that it happened, and I heard my son's voice.

 5        Q.   I was asking about the houses, and you said they were in flames.

 6     Could you tell me which houses you saw in flames?

 7        A.   My houses and all the houses in the village.

 8        Q.   On your compound there was also, you had told us, the house of

 9     your brother Nikoll.  What did you observe about that house?

10        A.   It was on fire as well.

11        Q.   And where did you go?

12        A.   We took the main road, Korenice-Gjakove.

13        Q.   Can I ask you what you observed within the village, first of all?

14     You mentioned there were some houses in flames.  What exactly did you

15     observe?

16        A.   We could see the houses set on fire.  Families -- other families

17     from the villages, the Binakus, the Kamberis, from my neighbourhood, had

18     left their homes.  They were all leaving.  Women and children were on the

19     road, and the men had been held in their courtyards.  That's what they

20     said, and that's what happened.

21        Q.   How many houses did you see burning, roughly, that day?

22        A.   As far as I could see, they started with our family first, the

23     Malaj family, but the total number of houses was about 10 or 15 at the

24     same time that were set on fire.  All of them were on fire.

25        Q.   And you said you took the main road, Korenice-Gjakove.

Page 821

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Who, if anybody, was escorting you?

 3        A.   The army, the police, they were lining the road, and they were

 4     forcing us to walk on and not stop anywhere.

 5        Q.   Okay.  How many persons were in your group?

 6        A.   A lot of us.  Quite a few.  I can't give you an exact number.

 7     But we were among the first.

 8             MR. NEUNER:  Can we, with the usher's assistance, pull up the map

 9     which was shown earlier, P294, which has been admitted as P294.

10        Q.   Were there people only coming from Korenica who joined the group,

11     or were there people also coming from other villages that day?

12        A.   That day there were people from other villages as well, such as

13     Guska.  There were people who were staying there in Guska.  The whole

14     village of Guska had left, but also other -- people from other villages

15     were leaving, such as Junik, people from Gjakove, Skivjane, and they were

16     on the road to Prizren.

17        Q.   Can you, first of all, mark the direction of your movement on

18     this map.  Where did you go to?

19        A.   Yes.  We went towards Albania, Korenice-Gjakove, Gjakove-Prizren,

20     Prizren-Verbica, and then to the border with Albania.

21        Q.   I think that's enough.  You went towards Gjakove, yeah?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And can you explain the direction by drawing some arrows the way

24     the villagers were coming.

25        A.   Yes.  People were from Guska.  Guska is here.

Page 822

 1        Q.   Can you next to the cross you marked there, mark the number 7,

 2     please, where you believe Guska is.

 3        A.   Yes, I will write the number here.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Maybe just if you could -- we see here on the map Korenica.  If

 5     you start to draw an arrow to the right of Korenica, to the right of the

 6     number 6, what you had marked as Suhadoll earlier, towards Djakovica, an

 7     arrow to indicate your movement, first of all.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Yes.  And can you now mark from where the villagers came who

10     joined your convoy.

11        A.   From Skivjane -- would you like me to circle it?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   So Skivjane.

14        Q.   Can you mark the direction of movement from Skivjan.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Yes.  Next to Skivjan could you please mark an 8.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Which other places?

19        A.   From Gjakove.

20        Q.   You yourself went to Djakovica.  You just encircled it.  Please

21     mark a 9 next to your circle.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   You mentioned to us you went to Djakovica.  Could you tell us,

24     were there any check-points along the road from Korenica towards

25     Djakovica?

Page 823

 1        A.   Yes.  Towards the Tabaku bridge, Ura e Tabakeve.

 2        Q.   Could you mark or encircle the location of the check-point and

 3     mark a 10 next to it, please.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And who was manning that check-point on that day?

 6        A.   The forces, the Serb forces, police, soldiers.

 7        Q.   And having been at the check-point, where -- in which direction

 8     did you proceed?

 9        A.   As soon as we got there, we were not allowed to go anywhere else,

10     so we continued straight to Prizren.

11        Q.   Could you mark on this map where Prizren -- which direction

12     Prizren is, only by drawing an arrow pointing towards Prizren indicating

13     your movement.

14             Prizren is not on this map, just that you show us which direction

15     you were moving.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you make this an arrow, please.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Okay.  And from Djakovica which direction did you move, north,

20     south, east, west?

21        A.   East.

22        Q.   Okay.  Can you just mark with an arrow east of Djakovica in which

23     direction you were moving.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Could you mark an arrow east of Djakovica?  I mean you're always

Page 824

 1     marking the city centre of Djakovica here, but could you mark east of

 2     Djakovica to indicate the direction of movement, behind Djakovica.

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to

 4     intervene.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecutor

 7     does not have the right to lead the witness, telling her where to put the

 8     arrow.  She must put the arrow where she thinks it should be, to the best

 9     of her knowledge.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, I saw no sign of the Prosecution

11     leading the witness.  He was trying to get a more clear indication drawn

12     by the witness of the direction of a major geographic centre, so that I

13     don't think there is an issue there.  Thank you.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with this, Your Honour,

15     but I don't think that he should say, Draw the arrow to the east.  He

16     should say, Draw the arrow where you actually went.  But I do agree that

17     this must be clarified.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.

19             MR. NEUNER:  Can I ask that this map be tendered, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  With the further markings, it will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00295, Your Honours.

22             MR. NEUNER:

23        Q.   What I would like to learn is, when you left Korenica on the 27th

24     of April, 1999, to proceed on this way you have just drawn for us, did

25     you leave voluntarily?

Page 825

 1        A.   No.  We were forced.

 2        Q.   On that day, the 27th of April, 1999, were there any NATO

 3     air-strikes which targeted Korenica?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Any air-strikes from NATO which targeted the wider region west of

 6     Djakovica?

 7        A.   No, not that day.

 8        Q.   So what was the real reason that you left Korenica that day?

 9        A.   The truth is that we were forced out.  Our husbands and sons were

10     held, nephews as well, and we were told to leave.  We were not allowed to

11     stay.  And they were killed.

12             MR. NEUNER:  I want to have 65 ter number 615, and there page 22,

13     being shown now.  And this is a map, again.  I just need one image on the

14     screen.  Yes.  Maybe we can focus on the area between Djakovica and

15     Prizren, because the witness has shown us -- yes, thank you.

16        Q.   Could you now mark the area or the streets -- the direction of

17     your movement from Djakovica, please.

18        A.   Can you zoom in, please.

19             MR. NEUNER:  Can we zoom in a little bit further.  I think

20     Djakovica can go on the upper part of this image.  Yes.

21        Q.   I hope that's sufficient.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   It must not be a hundred percent precise.  The important point is

24     that you indicate being at Djakovica, where you went.  What was the next

25     major town to which you went?

Page 826

 1        A.   This road.

 2        Q.   If you could just mark along the road with your pencil to where

 3     you went.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Just by drawing a straight line, this would be the best.

 6        A.   A full line, not interrupted?

 7        Q.   A full line is maybe the easiest.  Correct.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And to which major town did you finally come to?

10        A.   Can we erase this?  Yeah, in the direction of Prizren.  I made a

11     mistake.  Sorry, I didn't see Prizren here.

12             MR. NEUNER:  Is that possible?  The witness has drawn -- can we

13     erase that?  I think she's -- okay.

14        Q.   We'll start afresh.  So if you could, afresh, just mark by

15     drawing a straight line.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay, thank you.  Can you, by marking an arrow, just

18     indicating -- indicate the direction of movement.

19        A.   You mean from Prizren onwards?

20        Q.   No, from Djakovica onwards.  Which direction did you move?

21        A.   So from Gjakove, all right.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. NEUNER:  Could I ask that this map is tendered, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00296, Your Honours.

Page 827

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2             MR. NEUNER:  We have a further map, but it doesn't show Prizren

 3     on it, so I would just ask a few questions.

 4        Q.   From Prizren, where did you proceed to?

 5        A.   Towards the border.

 6        Q.   With?

 7        A.   At Morina.

 8        Q.   To which --

 9        A.   Prizren, Verbica and Cafe Morina.

10        Q.   And the border is between Kosovo where you were and which state,

11     please?

12        A.   And Kosova, former Yugoslavia at the time.

13        Q.   Yes.  You were in Kosovo, obviously, but the border faces which

14     other country, please?

15        A.   Albania.

16        Q.   Okay.  Throughout all your way from Korenica towards the border

17     to Kosovo -- border to Albania, did you have any possibility of changing

18     your directions?

19        A.   No, we didn't have this possibility.  They didn't allow us.

20        Q.   Who is "they" who did not allow you?

21        A.   The forces, the Serb forces.

22        Q.   And could you be a little bit more precise, which type of forces,

23     Serb forces, you're talking about?

24        A.   Police, paramilitary.  We were escorted by them up to the border,

25     and they didn't give us even five minutes for rest or to have something

Page 828

 1     to eat or drink.  They didn't allow us to sit anywhere for a rest.

 2        Q.   Did you make any attempt to change your direction?

 3        A.   That was impossible.

 4        Q.   But my question was:  Did you yourself or your group try to

 5     change the direction, to go somewhere else than to Prizren and the border

 6     to Albania?

 7        A.   Yes.  When we were at Gjakove, at the part near the hospital, we

 8     attempted to leave.  We called the priest.  We call him Father Marijan.

 9     I don't know his last name.  We thought that we would go to Rac or Mulic,

10     but the police didn't let us.  They just said, You either go straight to

11     Albania, or we will execute you.  So we were given these two choices:

12     Either to go to Albania or remain there and be executed.  So they didn't

13     let us go to any other direction.

14        Q.   And what happened -- what, if anything, happened at the border to

15     the ID documents, the identification documents, passports, et cetera?

16        A.   They asked for the identification documents.  Those who had them

17     on them, they did give them.  I didn't have one.  Those who had tractors

18     were forced to remove the registration plates from their tractors.

19        Q.   Can you tell me, who is "they" who asked for the documents and

20     registration plates?

21        A.   The police, those that serve at the border.

22        Q.   And are we talking about the police being on the Kosovar side of

23     the border or about the police being on the Albanian side of the border?

24        A.   The policemen on the Kosovar side of the border.

25        Q.   At what time did you receive leave Korenica on the 27th of April,

Page 829

 1     1999?

 2        A.   At 7.30.  At 8.00 we were already on the main road, and we left

 3     our house at 7.30 in the morning.

 4        Q.   And at what time did you reach Vrbica or the border near Vrbica

 5     or Cafe Morina, the border to Albania?

 6        A.   On the 28th of April, at 1.00 p.m.  Around 12.00 or 1.00 p.m.

 7        Q.   So you went to Albania.  When did you return to Kosovo?

 8        A.   On the 3rd of July, 1999.

 9        Q.   How did the houses in your courtyard in Korenica look like?

10        A.   They were burnt down, destroyed, and one could no longer live in

11     them.

12        Q.   You had mentioned that on the 27th of April, 1999, there were

13     three vehicles belonging to the families in the courtyard, in the

14     courtyard in Korenica.  I'm referring to the vehicles of your brother and

15     of your own family.  What happened to these vehicles -- what did you see

16     or observe about these vehicles?

17        A.   These cars were burnt down.  One of them, which was just in front

18     of my gate, it was an Audi make, they tried to take it with them but they

19     couldn't, and they set it on fire.  And the other two cars, one belonging

20     to my husband and one to my brother, they were both Mercedes make, they

21     were burnt inside the courtyard.  And there was a tree also in the

22     courtyard, and it was burnt down, too.

23        Q.   What was the condition of the house of your brother Nikoll?

24        A.   Burnt down.

25        Q.   Was it inhabitable when you saw it again?

Page 830

 1        A.   No, it wasn't.

 2        Q.   When and what did you learn about the fate of your five relatives

 3     that you had left and last seen in your courtyard on the 27th of April,

 4     1999?  If you could please start with your husband, Vat Malaj.

 5        A.   According to ICRC and the examinations, we were informed that his

 6     body was found at Batanice.  His funeral took place on the 17th of April,

 7     2004.  This was very hard news for me.

 8             My son, Blerim Malaj, I was informed of him a year later, on the

 9     27th of April, 2005, when he was reburied.  His body was recovered at

10     Batanice.

11             My brother Nikoll Kabashi, his -- we collected his body together

12     with my son's body on the same day, on the 27th of April.

13             My nephew Arben Kabashi, Sokol Kabashi's son - Sokol Kabashi is

14     my eldest brother - on the 14th of December, 2005, was reburied.  That's

15     when we got his body.  Andrush Kabashi, too, was reburied on the 27th of

16     April.

17             We received all these bodies from Batanice.  I saw all of them,

18     identified them, and we reburied them.

19        Q.   Where did you see these bodies?

20        A.   We collected the bodies in Rahovec.  That's where the location

21     was, where these bodies were brought to.  This is where we first saw him,

22     in Rahovec, and we took them from there.

23        Q.   And do you know who transported the bodies to Orahovac?

24        A.   The International Red Cross.

25        Q.   Okay.  Could you just tell in which year you were informed about

Page 831

 1     your brother Nikoll Kabashi?  You mentioned the date, 27 of April, but

 2     not the year.

 3        A.   2005.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that all bodies were found in

 5     Batajnica.  In what state lies Batajnica?

 6        A.   In Serbia, near Belgrade.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  For Your Honours' reference, all the names of the

 8     victims just mentioned by our witness, these names are mentioned in

 9     Schedule H of our indictment.

10        Q.   What I wanted to ask you, Ms. Malaj, is you mentioned a couple of

11     other families in relation to Korenica; for example, the Dedaj family.

12     What, if anything, has happened to the Dedaj family on the 27th of April,

13     1999?

14        A.   The Dedaj family, on this day, took refuge to the mountains.  My

15     younger brother Jakob Kabashi, my mother, Marika Kabashi, they stayed

16     there, too.  They went to the mountains.  The first attack was on my

17     family because my house is just before the Dedaj family houses.  They

18     survived, the whole family.  My mother, my younger brother, they all

19     survived because they fled to the mountains.

20        Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Merita Dedaj?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know the name of her father?

23        A.   Mark.

24        Q.   What happened to Mark Dedaj?

25        A.   He was also killed in Korenice.

Page 832

 1        Q.   When?

 2        A.   On the 27th of April.

 3        Q.   Which year?

 4        A.   1999.

 5        Q.   And can you tell us, how did you learn about this fact?

 6        A.   The remains of these victims all came from Batanice.  She

 7     reburied her father's remains, too.

 8        Q.   And where did she bury her father's remains, if you know?

 9        A.   In Guska.

10        Q.   And where are the five relatives or family members of your family

11     buried nowadays?

12        A.   In Meje.

13        Q.   Thank you for answering all my questions.

14             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions at this

15     point in time.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Neuner.

17             It is now the time we must finish for the day to allow another

18     trial to continue, so we will adjourn now.  We continue tomorrow in the

19     afternoon at 2.15, and I expect it will be in Courtroom I.

20             So if you can understand, we must now adjourn because another

21     trial continues here, but we will continue your evidence tomorrow in the

22     afternoon.  People will look after you until then.  Thank you.

23             We now adjourn.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

Page 833

 1                           February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.