Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 834

 1                           Wednesday, 11 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  May I remind you of the

 7     affirmation you made to tell the truth here.  Now, that still applies

 8     today as well.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic has some more questions to put to

11     you.

12             Mr. Djordjevic.

13                           WITNESS:  LIZANE MALAJ [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Malaj.  My name is

17     Dragoljub Djordjevic, and I'm counsel for Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic, the

18     accused in this case, and as Mr. President just indicated, I would like

19     to ask you some questions to clarify some facts that you spoke about

20     yesterday while you were examined by my learned friend

21     Mr. Matthias Neuner.

22             My first question is:  Can you tell us where your village is in

23     relation to the Albanian border?

24        A.   Our village is in the outskirts of the city of Gjakove.  It's

25     5 kilometres from Gjakove.

Page 835

 1        Q.   As far as I know, Djakovica is in Kosovo and Metohija.  I asked

 2     you how far your village was from the Albanian border.  Your village is

 3     Korenica.  That's your village, if I'm not mistaken.

 4        A.   Yes, it is, but the border is far away.  You can go to the border

 5     through Qafa e Prushit, but we are not close to that area.  I don't know

 6     how close or far to the border crossing we are.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is this:  Is your village in the

 8     border zone, and do you know what the term "border zone" means?

 9        A.   Yes, I understand what the border term means, but we're not

10     there.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the

12     usher to show a map bearing the number P002-295.  I would like it to be

13     shown to the witness, P002-295.

14             Could we please zoom in on this.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, you marked your village with number 1, if I'm not

16     mistaken, and the markings in red ink, those markings are already

17     admitted into evidence.  We can see the town of Djakovica, but I can also

18     see the border, the border between Albania and Serbia or, rather, Kosovo

19     and Metohija.  So could you show us where the border is by taking the

20     same pen and mark the borderline with Xs, with a number of Xs, so that we

21     can confirm that we both see the border in the same place, if of course

22     you see it at all.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, how is it going to help this

24     Chamber to have a witness such as this lady attempt to draw a borderline

25     when there is, on authoritative maps, a very clear and correct border?

Page 836

 1     Do you see my concern?  I don't see how we are going to be helped in this

 2     case.

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I fully understand your

 4     concern and this that issue you've just raised, Your Honour.  The reason

 5     why I'm asking this is because this will elicit a series of questions on

 6     my part.  Let me tell you, we're talking about 1999 and 1998 and the

 7     statement that this witness made, that the villagers from the village had

 8     gone into the mountains, so where the mountains are.  so I just want to

 9     see whether this witness herself is able to indicate the border which is

10     shown here, and this is not controversial at all.  And I understand why

11     you're asking me this, because we all know that this is a proper map.  I

12     just want to see whether the witness herself knows that, knows where the

13     border is.  Nothing else.

14             So if you'll allow me, if she could merely indicate where she

15     sees the border, and if she cannot or if she is not to do that, I will

16     comply and I will go on with my questions.  But you can see that it is

17     rather illogical.  We can all see how close the border is.  But I just

18     want to check whether she is able to tell where the border is, because

19     she was able to show various locations on the map, to the east, to the

20     south-east, to the west, to the north.  So if you allow me, I would like

21     her to show us the border.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  I don't see on the map displayed on my screen the

23     part of the map that shows the border, but are you saying that the border

24     is depicted on this map?

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I can see the

Page 837

 1     villages that are in the territory of the Republic of Albania on this

 2     map, but if anyone should know that, it's the witness.  She lived there.

 3     But if not, then perhaps we can use some other map.  Agreed.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  We don't have any Albania on this map.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then I will withdraw

 6     this question, and I will not insist on this map being shown to the

 7     witness.

 8        Q.   What's the name of the mountains next to your village?

 9        A.   The mountains close to our village, they are next to our village

10     as a matter of fact.  When you leave the house, you have the mountains

11     there.

12        Q.   What are the mountains called?

13        A.   The mountains of Korenice.  There is no other name in the place

14     where we live.  That's where our land is, where our mountains are, where

15     our village is.

16        Q.   Do those mountains surround the whole village, or where are they?

17     Are they to the north, to the east, to the south, or to the west, or is

18     it that they are all around the village?

19        A.   Well, somewhere there is -- you can see the mountain.  The rest

20     of it is a low area.

21        Q.   Are those mountains to the north, to the east, to the south, or

22     to the west?  Can you give us the point of compass?

23        A.   To the south.

24        Q.   Will you agree with me that beyond those mountains there is the

25     Republic of Albania?

Page 838

 1        A.   No.  There are a lot of villages you have to go through before

 2     you reach where you are saying.  We are not on the border zone, no.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  The next line of questioning will have to do with the

 4     Micunovic family.  Yesterday you said that Dragan Micunovic was the only

 5     Serb in your village, and in your statement of the 6th of September,

 6     2001, at page 2, para 2, you say that in your village there was the

 7     Micunovic family and there were 15 family members.

 8             Now I want to ask you whether you still maintain that the only

 9     Serb in the village was Dragan Micunovic, or was that a linguistic error,

10     or was this a family with 15 members?

11        A.   He was the only one in our village, but I mean the whole family.

12     He had three brothers, and their family lived there.

13        Q.   Now, you mentioned his three brothers, and you said that they

14     lived there too.  Am I understanding you correctly?  Or was he the only

15     one?

16        A.   This was the only household.

17        Q.   How many members were there in the household, approximately?  You

18     don't have to give us the exact figure.

19        A.   At that time there were 15 of them, as far as I know.

20        Q.   Can you tell us, as regards Dragan Micunovic, you told us

21     yesterday that he was an officer in the Yugoslav Army, yet in your

22     statement when you mention him for the first time, you say that

23     Dragan Micunovic was, in fact, a major in the Yugoslav Army.  The term

24     that you used yesterday is the broader term.  What you said in your

25     initial term; is that correct?  Was he a major in the Army of Yugoslavia?

Page 839

 1        A.   The main thing is that he worked there.  Whether he was an

 2     officer or a major, that is where he worked, in the army.

 3        Q.   Why did you, on the 6th of September when you gave your

 4     statement, that was in 2001, say that Dragan Micunovic was a major in the

 5     Yugoslav Army?

 6        A.   I did say that, but he used to play all the roles possible.

 7        Q.   Predrag Micunovic, who is that?

 8        A.   His brother.

 9        Q.   Was he also an officer in the Yugoslav Army?

10        A.   That's where they worked.

11        Q.   Do you know what rank he had?

12        A.   Whether he was an officer or not, I don't know, or what rank he

13     had.  But I know that he worked in the army.

14        Q.   Could you please tell me, as regards Aca Micunovic, whom you

15     mentioned yesterday, you said he was the local village policeman.  In

16     your statement of the 31st of August and the 1st of September 2001, you

17     said that Micunovic was a police officer and that he worked in Korenica

18     in that capacity.  Can we agree that he was just an ordinary police

19     officer, that he did not have any special rank?

20        A.   At that time we used the term "local policeman," and with that

21     term we meant a policeman in the villages.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now it's much clearer.  You said that you were on

23     good terms with the Micunovic family until the 4th of April, 1999.  This

24     is what you say in your statement of the 6th of September, 2001, at

25     page 2.  But you also say something before the sentence.  You say that

Page 840

 1     the three brothers behaved as if there were 300 Serbs living there.  How

 2     are we to understand this sentence?

 3        A.   Yes.  Up until that day they behaved very well.  We went to

 4     social occasions together, weddings and so on.  But they behaved very

 5     badly when they forced us out, returned us back, and then they did

 6     whatever they wanted with us.

 7        Q.   Are you saying that for all three brothers that I mentioned - Aca

 8     Predrag and the eldest brother, the officer Dragan - or just some of

 9     them?

10        A.   I didn't see Predrag do anything, at least not to my family.

11     Aca Micunovic, after he forced us out of our homes, he told us to go back

12     again.  Dragan and Aca gave orders to separate the women from the men, to

13     tell the men that they had to go to the mountains, and then he gave

14     orders to the men to go back to their homes again.  Whatever orders he

15     gave, we obeyed them.  Whatever he said, we did.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now it's much clearer now.

17             Mrs. Malaj, my next question, in fact a whole series of

18     questions, will pertain to the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army.  Can you

19     tell me what does this name mean to you?  When you say Kosovo Liberation

20     Army, the KLA, what do you understand it to mean, you personally?

21        A.   The Kosovo Liberation Army, to me it has a good meaning.  At that

22     time, however, we were not members, and we did not see it.

23        Q.   What kind of an organisation is it?

24        A.   I don't know that.  I was a housewife with five children.  At

25     that time I was trying to get food on the table and feed my children.  I

Page 841

 1     was not involved in any such organisations.

 2        Q.   Well, my question is whether you knew what kind of an

 3     organisation it was, not whether you took part in it.  And I fully

 4     understand the role that you played, the role of a mother.

 5        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mrs. Malaj, please tell us, how far from Korenica are

 7     the villages of Nec, Smolnica, Pacaj, and Ramoc?

 8        A.   Nec and Ramoc are next door to us.  Smolice is far away; it's not

 9     close to us.

10        Q.   What about Pacaj?

11        A.   It's on the other side.  It's not close, no.

12        Q.   Can you tell us how far away from your village are the villages

13     of Pacaj and Smolnica, in kilometres?

14        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know.  I've never been to Smolice.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you said that in 1998, together with the

16     other villages, you would leave Korenica because you were afraid because

17     the Serb forces started opening fire at the villages of Nec, Ramoc, and

18     other villages, that were, as you said, close to your village.  In your

19     statement of the 31st of August and the 1st of September, 2000, at

20     page 2, paragraph 5 - page 2, that's in B/C/S; it's in --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The counsel is kindly

22     asked to slow down when quoting the reference.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You said:  "We were afraid because the Serb forces started firing

25     at the KLA positions in the villages of Nec, Smolnica, and other

Page 842

 1     villages, in the Caragoj valley.  You do not mention the KLA positions in

 2     your evidence yesterday.  Now you tell us that you don't know what this

 3     is all about, so why did you say that yesterday, whereas on an earlier

 4     occasion you said something else?  Could you please explain this obvious

 5     discrepancy between what you said in September 2000 and what you said

 6     yesterday in your evidence.  This is the statement that you gave and that

 7     you signed as your statement, unless now you want to tell us something

 8     else.

 9        A.   Please, could you speak more slowly and explain things better.  I

10     don't know which question to answer first.

11             When the forces were there, I told you that they were in May,

12     they shelled from the positions -- or shots were fired from the position

13     of Ramoc and Nec, but I don't know, to be truthful, I don't know because

14     we were not involved in anything of that sort.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The shots were fired

16     into Ramoc and Nec.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... getting an explanation, and

19     let me repeat, I will be slower.  I don't know how fast the

20     interpretation was.  So your statement on the 31st of August and the 1st

21     of September, 2000, in Albanian the reference, and the Croatian, Serbian,

22     Bosnian, and in the English versions, I provided the exact reference as

23     to where those words are in your statement.  This is not something that

24     you should be concerned with, but you should be concerned with the

25     essence.

Page 843

 1             I wanted to explain the discrepancy between what we heard from

 2     you today, yesterday, and what we were able to read in your statement, if

 3     it is indeed your statement, and I believe it is.  Yesterday it was not

 4     controversial.  The statement of the 31st of August and the 1st of

 5     September, 2000.  You said:

 6              "We were frightened because the Serb forces started firing on

 7     the KLA positions in the villages of Nec, Smolnica, and other villages in

 8     the Caragoj valley."  And now you tell us you don't know about Smolnica,

 9     yet you were saying something about it at that time.  You said that you

10     didn't know what the KLA was, that for you it was something positive.  I

11     understand that you're now saying that you don't know what kind of an

12     organisation it is, but in your statement you say they started opening

13     fire on the KLA positions.  How come that now and yesterday you didn't

14     tell us anything about that?  You don't even mention that.  How is that

15     possible?

16        A.   It is true that they fired at those positions; however, where

17     they were positioned, that I don't know, whether it was Nec, Ramoc, or

18     Smolice, we didn't hear them.  The forces were moving along the main road

19     Gjakove-Runik.  We were at Korenice.  They would stop; they would fire at

20     those positions.  But as for the exact locations, where they were

21     positioned, that I don't know.  To tell you the truth, I really wanted to

22     see the KLA, at least one member, but at that time we were very busy and

23     we didn't dare even go further than our courtyard, to schools or to the

24     church.  We left our village.  We went to Guska.  It was impossible to go

25     beyond our village because of the forces at that time.  This was the

Page 844

 1     situation.

 2             It is true that I've mentioned it in my statement, that they were

 3     there in Nec and Smolice, but exactly where, that I don't know.

 4        Q.   And how come you didn't mention it earlier today or yesterday,

 5     instead of mentioning the KLA, you say you don't know what the KLA was

 6     all about, that you don't know anything about it?

 7        A.   Because I didn't see it.

 8        Q.   I will not insist on that.  I would like to move on and say --

 9     can I conclude that you never met or were introduced to a single member

10     of the KLA in 1997 and in 1998?

11        A.   Not in 1997, not in 1998, not even in 1999.  After the war ended

12     and when NATO entered Kosova, after we returned from Albania, it is only

13     then that I saw them.

14        Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Fila Malaj?  If you do know

15     that person, can you tell us who that person is and where do you know him

16     from?

17        A.   Yes, I know Fila Malaj.  She is our first cousin.  Our fathers

18     are brothers.  We are both married to the same family, in the Malaj

19     family.  We live close to each other; our houses are next to each

20     other -- close to each other.  We live in the same village.  Her husband

21     and her son were killed, and her house was burned down.

22        Q.   How far is her house in Korenica from your house?

23        A.   You mean Fila's house from my house?  It's not that far.  There's

24     only one wall between us.

25        Q.   Did you socialise, the two of you?

Page 845

 1        A.   No.  What do you mean?  In what way, socialising?

 2        Q.   You were cousins.  Your fathers are brothers, as far as I can

 3     understand.  So I'm thinking that as first cousins and neighbours, you

 4     must have socialised.  Did you go to church together?  Did you drink

 5     coffee together?  Did you visit each other?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  That, yes.  I thought your question referred to the

 7     period when we left our houses, but what you said is true, we did

 8     socialise.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  On the 20th of October, 2001, your cousin stated to

10     the OTP that she personally knew that the KLA manned the front lines in

11     Ramoc, Nec, Junik, Lug, Caragoj all the way up to the Kreca river, and

12     that was in the immediate vicinity of your village.  Since you are so

13     closely related and since you socialised, which is understandable, I

14     really don't understand how come you don't know anything about the KLA as

15     it was at that time and she knows so much and you're so close.

16        A.   At the time we didn't talk about the KLA or things like that.  I

17     don't know anything about Ramoc and Nec and that part of the area.  I

18     also told you that there were there, the KLA, but personally I didn't see

19     them.  We did talk about things, family things, about our children, about

20     a better future for our children, but we didn't talk about the KLA.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, are you familiar with Shpend Malaj?

22     Does the name ring a bell?

23        A.   We don't have a Shpend Malaj.

24        Q.   Is he a person from your village?

25        A.   There is a Shpend Dushmani, but not Malaj, in our village.

Page 846

 1        Q.   In the Milutinovic case, page 1362, line 8, to a similar question

 2     put to you by a different counsel, you answered yes.  You said that you

 3     knew who Shpend Malaj was.  How come you don't know who that person is

 4     today?

 5        A.   There is no Shpend Malaj in my family.  Please, we don't have

 6     anyone by the name of Shpend in my family.  In the village there is a

 7     person by the name of Shpend, but not by the surname Malaj.  There is a

 8     Shpend Dushmani.  I do know this person.  We were at school, part of the

 9     same generation, but we don't have a Shpend Malaj in the family.

10        Q.   Well, who's Shpend Dushmani?

11        A.   He also had his father, his uncle, his first cousin, and two

12     brothers killed.  He lives in Korenice, in my village.  I don't know what

13     else to tell you about him.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And what about Gani Malaj?  Does that name ring a

15     bell?

16        A.   No, we don't have a Gani Malaj in the family either.  We don't

17     have male members by this name.

18        Q.   In order to make things clear, are all the Malajs in Korenica

19     members of one family, or, rather, when you say "we don't have a person

20     by that name in our family," do you only refer to your inner family?

21        A.   There are four Malaj households in Korenice, but you will not

22     find a Shpend or Gani Malaj as members of these households.  So we are

23     four households, we are related to each other, but we don't have any Gani

24     or Shpend as members of our family.

25        Q.   And what about Islam Malaj?  Does that name ring a bell?

Page 847

 1        A.   Please, they do not belong to my family.  If you want, I can

 2     mention all the names of the members of the Malaj family.  You will find

 3     many people with the last name Malaj, but these that you mention are not

 4     part of my family, nor is Shpend or Gani or Islam.

 5        Q.   And I'm going to ask you about two more names.  Adrian and

 6     Valdet Malaj are the names.

 7        A.   Adrian Malaj at that time was very young.  He lived in

 8     Switzerland.  He did not live in Korenice at the time, but he is part of

 9     our family.  And the other name that you mentioned, that I don't know.

10     Did you say Lundrit or something like that?

11        Q.   Valdet.

12        A.   No, we don't have a Valdet in our family.

13        Q.   You've said about Shpend, Gani, Ismet, and Valdet that you don't

14     know who they are, and you only mentioned Adrian as a person you knew.

15     He resided in Switzerland when the conflict started.  You said that

16     Adrian was very young at the time.  Do you know that he was a member of

17     the 131st Brigade of the KLA?  Do you know anything about that?

18        A.   No, please, it cannot be him.  He was very young.  He left for

19     Switzerland at the age of seven, and he was not there at the time in

20     Kosova.  And as I said, he was very young.  This must be a mistake.

21        Q.   I've asked you all this because I have information about some

22     people.  And let me ask you if there was anybody from Korenica or its

23     surroundings who went by the name of Adrian and by the family name Malaj

24     and did not belong to your family.  Would that ring any bells?

25        A.   No.  You won't find another one in Korenice.

Page 848

 1        Q.   Yesterday you said that in the course of 1998 you would go to the

 2     mountains with the men but that the men would do it more often on their

 3     own.  Would the same thing be happening in early March 1999?

 4        A.   The men would go to the mountains for shelter because in the

 5     morning they would undertake actions; they would go to houses.  So that's

 6     why the men went to the mountains and then would come back in the

 7     evenings to their homes.

 8        Q.   You will agree with me, won't you, that this is contrary to your

 9     statement and your testimony provided yesterday.  You said that there

10     were no problems with either the military or the police before April

11     1999, that they were a mere presence there, that they did not ill-treat

12     anybody.  They were there just to supervise, as it were, and I'm quoting

13     you.  Why would men retire to the mountains?  I can't understand.  If

14     your statement is correct, as I quoted it just now and as you stated

15     yourself, can you then answer, how come that the men went to the

16     mountains?

17        A.   The men went to the mountains because they were scared.  We were

18     all scared.  The infantry forces, for example, in the spring, they were

19     just above my house.  So the men would go to the mountains only to

20     protect themselves, for shelter.

21        Q.   You said that the -- there was no freedom of movement or, rather,

22     that it was limited.  How did they go to the mountains, and having asked

23     you this, I accept that your statement is correct.

24        A.   Secretly, by hiding themselves.

25        Q.   At night?

Page 849

 1        A.   In the morning, around 4.00 in the morning, when they would not

 2     be seen.

 3        Q.   And what about the women?

 4        A.   The women would remain in their homes.

 5        Q.   Can I then conclude that the men went to the mountains because

 6     they were afraid and that the women stayed behind because -- I really

 7     don't see why.

 8        A.   The reason is because they were going after the men.

 9        Q.   But you said that nobody had been persecuted before April 1999,

10     that they were a mere presence and that they just supervised the

11     situation.

12        A.   They didn't persecute because people would not leave their

13     courtyards.  They would leave secretly, early in the morning when they

14     could not be seen.  However, had they seen anyone moving about, they

15     would probably shoot them.

16        Q.   Gjon Prelaj, a 15-year-old boy who allegedly conveyed

17     Dragan Micunovic's orders to the village of Korenica to take to the

18     mountains.  Am I right in saying that?

19        A.   Yes, he is a person who brought their order to us.  They issued

20     the order to him.

21        Q.   Their order or Dragan Micunovic's order?  Whose order?

22        A.   Dragan Micunovic.

23        Q.   When you say "to us," "they ordered us," who was it who the

24     15-year-old boy conveyed Dragan Micunovic's order to?

25        A.   To everyone in the village.  So every man in the village left for

Page 850

 1     the mountains.  There were rumours that trucks and other vehicles would

 2     come to take us to other locations.  So amongst the group that left for

 3     the mountains was my son, Blerim Malaj.  My husband took him with him.

 4     He didn't know why he was going there.  So when he went to the mountains,

 5     he asked his father why we are here, and my father said -- and his father

 6     said, for them not to be seen.  So they went to the mountain on that day

 7     and then they came back in the evening, at his orders again.

 8        Q.   This is your statement in which you say to the investigator of

 9     the Tribunal as follows:

10             "The order said that all the men had to go to the mountains to

11     hide.  This is what the order said."

12             Are these your words?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was that an order?  Was that, rather, a warning?  A military can

15     also order somebody to stay put, not to move, and here you say that the

16     order was for everybody to go to the mountain to hide.  My question is

17     this:  Was it maybe a warning issued by your neighbour Dragan Micunovic

18     to everybody to hide?

19        A.   It was an order.

20        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, I beg to differ.  If somebody says to somebody else

21     to hide, to save themselves, how can that be an order?  But let's leave

22     it at that.  Let me move on to something else.

23             When did the men return from the mountains?  Or maybe you wanted

24     to say something else, and I'm sorry if I interrupted you.  Go ahead.

25        A.   The men returned on the same day.  I wanted to say the following:

Page 851

 1     They separated the men from us for them to go to the mountains and for

 2     us, the women and children, to be taken to new locations.  This was the

 3     order.

 4        Q.   I'm afraid you're confused about the time, place, and people

 5     involved in the events.  You said in your statement, and you agreed with

 6     that but I'd like to go over that again, you said that Dragan Micunovic,

 7     your neighbour, said to a child whose name is Gjon Prelaj, that he

 8     ordered all the men to the mountains to hide, and now you are saying that

 9     they separated the men from everybody else.  Who did that, Gjon Prelaj?

10             I can agree that this did happen at one point, but maybe not on

11     that day.  I know that you did say that the men were separated from the

12     women when the convoy was being organised and when you suffered a

13     terrible tragedy.  I know all of that, Mrs. Malaj; I'm not denying any of

14     that.  However, what you just told us now, I apologise, would you please

15     be so kind and to make an effort to explain things for everybody so as

16     everybody in the courtroom may be clear on what really happened.

17        A.   Yes.  The day Dragan Micunovic issued his order to the young man,

18     the 15-year-old Gjon, Gjon Prelaj, this day was terrible.  The word was

19     that the men would go to the mountains and the women would be taken to

20     other places.  This is what I stated in my statement.  But they made the

21     men come back on the same day.  This was in the evening.  I don't know

22     the exact time.  We were terrified; we were worried.  He, my son, when he

23     came back, he said to me that he was very scared, that he would never

24     leave me.  Nobody knew what was going to happen to them in the mountains,

25     but luckily they came back.  But, as I said, until the 27th, they didn't

Page 852

 1     do anything anymore.

 2        Q.   The men left and hid in the mountains on that day.  And what

 3     about the women?  What happened to them?  Did anybody touch them,

 4     ill-treat them, harass them, or humiliate them in any way?

 5        A.   Nothing happened to us.  We were expecting something to happen

 6     because the word was that we would be taken to other locations.  But

 7     nothing happened.

 8        Q.   Tell me, please, when it comes to the men going to the mountains,

 9     I showed you a part of your statement where you stated that you,

10     yourself, also went to the mountains; is that correct?  Did you go to the

11     mountains as well?  On what occasions?  How many times?  What were the

12     reasons behind your decisions?  And if I misquoted you, please say so.

13        A.   I didn't count how many times we went to the mountains.  The

14     reason was because they would stop on the road - our village is by the

15     road - and they were shooting from there.  So we left the village and

16     went to the mountains to protect our lives and not to suffer any harm.

17     But we were tired of leaving.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to ask you some questions about the

19     statement you provided yesterday.  You said that in the spring of 1998

20     you'd seen tanks.  You also said in your 31st of August statement that

21     there had been five of them.  However, you said that it was in 1999,

22     before the 27th of April, when tragedy struck your household.

23             Because of what you said yesterday and because of what you stated

24     in 2000, and that was that you had seen five camouflage tanks, rather

25     large ones, in 1998, and also in your statements provided on the 31st of

Page 853

 1     August and the 1st of September, 2000, you also mentioned five tanks but

 2     you said that they appeared in 1999.  Can you please now explain whether

 3     you misspoke, whether your words were incorrectly recorded, if there was

 4     a mistake?  Can you clarify, and then we will move on.

 5        A.   No, it's not a mistake.  The first time we saw them was in 1998,

 6     and there were tanks all the time, even later on.  But the first time we

 7     saw them was in 1998.

 8        Q.   Well, now, this is the first time you're saying it.  You never

 9     said it before, either in your testimony so far or in your statements.

10     If things are as they seem to be, let's go to the year 1998.  You said

11     yesterday that you'd seen tanks.  How many tanks did you see at the time

12     in 1998?  Were there five?  You keep on mentioning this number, five, and

13     again you say five in 1999 and that's why you have confused me.

14        A.   No, not in 1999.  There were countless tanks in 1999, while in

15     1998, when I saw them for the first time, there were five tanks.  They

16     were on the road from Gjakove to Junik and the infantry, they were all

17     above my house passing there.  And then from 1998 to 1999 until the war

18     was over, there were countless tanks, innumerable tanks.  The first ones

19     I saw were five tanks on tracks, and everything is clear in the

20     statement.  However, from that day to the end of the war, the tanks we

21     saw were innumerable.

22        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, those five tanks, we heard that they were tracked.

23     What colour were they?

24        A.   Blue camouflage, green camouflage.  So blue camouflage, those

25     colours.

Page 854

 1        Q.   Are you sure that you saw a blue tank with tracks?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Very well.  What did you see on those tanks?  What kind of

 4     equipment did they have mounted?  Was anyone walking in front of them or

 5     around them or behind them or moving in any other way?

 6        A.   Well, please, they were on the main road from Gjakove to Junik.

 7     I couldn't see what they had on.  We have a two-storey house, and we

 8     could see them from our house.  Well, of course they had their own guns,

 9     the usual guns.  Why were they tanks -- those tanks there?  There's this

10     mounted gun on the tank that you can turn around.  I don't know the name

11     of the gun.

12        Q.   It's all fine and well, Mrs. Malaj, but let me remind you again

13     of your statement you gave in September 2001 when you told an

14     investigator of the OTP something completely different.  You said:

15             "On the same day on the main road I saw five large camouflage

16     tanks and two police officers on each."

17             How come those two police officers have gone missing now from

18     your evidence today?  You said quite specifically that there were no

19     persons on the tanks.  That's what you said today.  And on the 6th of

20     September, 2001 -- well, it's not funny.  You say:  "We saw two police

21     officers on each tank."  Now I'm asking you, how come that the police

22     officers have now gone missing?

23        A.   Which officers are you talking about?  Of course somebody was

24     driving the tanks.  And I mentioned before that there is a gun that's

25     mounted on the tank and it came around, and how can it come around with

Page 855

 1     somebody moving it around?  Of course the policemen were there.  I don't

 2     know whether they were officers or not.  They were policemen.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malaj.  This is quite sufficient.

 4             I have to go back to those blue tanks.  What did those tanks look

 5     like, those blue tanks?  Please describe them.  Were they the same as

 6     what you described to us a little while ago, only blue?

 7        A.   Yes, blue camouflage.  There were some one-coloured machines as

 8     well.

 9        Q.   Blue camouflage?  What's this blue camouflage colour?  Can you

10     describe that to us?

11        A.   Well, could you say darker blue and lighter blue, mixed.  We call

12     it "teget."

13        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, you mentioned a Pinzgauer vehicle.  Could you please

14     tell us, what is it?  What kind of a vehicle is it?

15        A.   It's got a tarpaulin on top; it's covered - that's how I know

16     them - or "kampanjolas."

17        Q.   Thank you.  We will now move on to the events of the 4th of

18     April, 1999.  At what time did Milutin Prascevic come to your village on

19     the 4th of April, he himself?

20        A.   It was in the afternoon, but I don't know the exact time.

21        Q.   Was it closer to noon or closer to the evening, Mrs. Malaj?

22        A.   Towards the evening.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us, how many police officers

24     came with him?  You said that they came in cars, in vehicles, but how

25     many vehicles and how many men?

Page 856

 1        A.   Milutin Prascevic came in one car.  He stopped close to

 2     Engjull Berisha's house, close to the transformer.  He went to the Dedaj

 3     family and gave the order for the whole village to leave.  Then he came

 4     to my house together with another policeman, both of them armed, and he

 5     ordered us to leave the house, leave the cars behind and take the

 6     tractor.  The whole village did whatever he said, whatever his orders

 7     said.

 8        Q.   You told us this yesterday.  That's what you told us yesterday,

 9     and that's why I interrupted you, lest we should waste time.  And I can

10     see now that the time for our break is drawing to a close.  I would like

11     to complete this line of questioning before the break.

12             Mrs. Malaj, so let me ask you things that are not clear to the

13     Defence and that are important for the Defence, because we believe that

14     it is crucial for the trial, things that you did not say or things that

15     are, in the Defence's view, contrary to the facts.  But I don't want to

16     argue anymore.

17             Mrs. Malaj, do you understand Serbian?  Do you speak Serbian?

18        A.   Just a little bit.

19        Q.   How much?  Well, your children went to school and they were

20     marked 1 to 5, so how would you mark your Serbian?  How much do you

21     understand it?  It would be -- would it be 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5?  I'm sure

22     it's not 5.  But how well do you speak Serbian?  Be frank.

23        A.   When I went to school I received the marks 3 or 4 in Serbian, but

24     from that time on I haven't practiced it much.  I just know enough to get

25     by.

Page 857

 1        Q.   Well, now it's much clearer.  So you did understand Serbian.  The

 2     reason why I ask this question has to do with Mr. Prascevic because he

 3     addressed you.  You asked him something.  In what language did you ask

 4     him?  What did you ask him?  You asked him what his name was.  In what

 5     language did you ask him that?  What did you say, "Ko si ti," who are

 6     you?

 7        A.   I spoke Albanian to him.  I asked him, Who are you, and he said,

 8     I am Milutin Prascevic.  And he said, Madam, you can leave your home.

 9     Take the whole family with you.  Leave the cars behind.  I spoke to him

10     in Albanian.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can we agree that Mr. Prascevic understood very well

12     what you asked him, since he gave you this answer?

13        A.   Yes, yes, he spoke very good Albanian.  He spoke very good

14     Albanian.

15        Q.   Excellent.  Thank you.  Thank you.  The order to leave your

16     homes, was it given in Albanian by him?  Was it an order?  How did he

17     tell you that?

18        A.   In Albanian, both at our home -- when we were at our home, but

19     also to the whole village.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time

21     for our break.  I have maybe 10 or 15 minutes to complete this line of

22     questioning, but I don't want to use up all the time.  I know that there

23     are some technical issues here.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have a break now and resume at

25     4.00.

Page 858

 1                           --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Milutin Prascevic spoke to you in the English -- rather, in the

 6     Albanian language.  Who was present there at the time when you asked him

 7     who he was and when he told you what he told you?  So who was there with

 8     you, next to you?

 9        A.   My family, the whole family.

10        Q.   Were you standing next to your husband, in fact, when you asked

11     him this?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did your husband speak to him at all, in addition to what you

14     told him?

15        A.   Yes.  Both of us spoke.

16        Q.   Can you tell us, what did your husband talk about with Prascevic

17     at that time?

18        A.   Nothing, just we were ordered to leave the house, and we did.  He

19     said, You have to get out.  My husband said, Okay, and I said the same,

20     and that's happened.

21        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is this:  Had you seen

22     Milutin Prascevic at all before that occasion?  Did he look familiar to

23     you?  And if you knew him, where did you know him from?

24        A.   No, I didn't know him from before.  I knew him only on that

25     occasion, got to know him on that occasion, because he introduced

Page 859

 1     himself.

 2        Q.   Do you know today where he was from, where he lived, where he

 3     served?

 4        A.   I know that at that time he lived in Gjakove, he served in

 5     Gjakove, but I don't know where he was from.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is this:  You were told to leave

 7     that evening, your family and the whole village.  Where were you told to

 8     go?

 9        A.   I was told in my courtyard, in my house.  That's where he came to

10     tell us.

11        Q.   You did not understand my question.  You were told to go where,

12     to leave your houses and to go where?

13        A.   To Albania.

14        Q.   In your statement of the 6th of September, 2001, in the third

15     sentence at page 1 you say:  So two years after the event, this is what

16     you're saying, first you say, "They ordered us to go to Meja" and then

17     two years later you say they ordered us to go to Albania, and today you

18     again say to Albania.  Yesterday you said to Albania.  What was the

19     reason?  Why did you say first that you were to go to Meja, and you

20     reached Meja, and you will agree with me that it is very close to your

21     village, 2 to 3 kilometres away from the village in the direction of

22     Djakovica, and now you say that you were told to go to Albania.  Could

23     you just very briefly tell us what this is all about?  Nothing more.

24        A.   Yes.  We were ordered to go to Albania, but before you go to

25     Meja, because the road Korenice-Gjakove goes through Orize, Suhadoll,

Page 860

 1     Meja, Brakoc, and then Gjakove, the town.  That day we were not able to

 2     go to Orize.  We were told to go back.  We were told to go back home by

 3     Aca Micunovic together with another policeman.  They came by car, and

 4     they told us to go back home, and because he told us so, we turned back

 5     and went home.

 6        Q.   Do you know what was the reason for all that, why you were told

 7     to go back home?  Because you will agree with me that place is 2 or

 8     3 kilometres away from your village, that location that you reached and

 9     you were then told to go back.

10        A.   The place we reached is only 1 kilometre from Korenice.  That's

11     the name of the village Suhadoll.  Of course they were playing games with

12     us.  That's why they did that.

13        Q.   Apart from the local police personnel, you say that Prascevic was

14     an employee in Djakovica, which is 5 kilometres away from you village.

15     Now you mentioned Aca.  I suppose that it would be Aca Micunovic.  Was

16     there anyone else there, other policemen that you didn't know?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

18             MR. NEUNER:  I'm sorry to interrupt my learned colleague.  I'm

19     just rising because I needed some time to check the reference given by my

20     colleague in his earlier question, and I just wanted to bring this on the

21     record.  As far as I understood the question, it related to the fact

22     whether the witness had said in her earlier statement that Mr. Prascevic

23     said that she was to go to Meja, and I've just checked the statement and

24     I don't find -- the statement of 6 September 2001, and I don't find any

25     reference to Meja in it.  I just wanted to bring this on the record.

Page 861

 1             According to the statement, it says that police officers came to

 2     the village.  The order was to go straight to Albania.  So insofar -- I

 3     believe the witness was consistent.  I just wanted to put this on the

 4     record as wrongly quoted.  I don't find any reference to -- that the

 5     witness had stated that she was told to go to Meja.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you have the exhibit reference to the

 7     statement, please, Mr. Neuner?

 8             MR. NEUNER:  As far as I know, the statement was not tendered by

 9     my learned colleague this afternoon --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  No, it was not.

11             MR. NEUNER:  I certainly haven't tendered it either because I had

12     full examination-in-chief, Your Honours.  It's not in evidence, as far as

13     I know.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  You heard what Mr. Neuner has to say,

15     Mr. Djordjevic.  Is there some other reference that you were referring to

16     in the statement?

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully take into

18     account this intervention by my colleague, Mr. Neuner, but not -- in

19     order not to waste time, I will now continue examining the witness and I

20     will go back to this issue later to provide an answer to the -- my

21     colleague.  I will ask my case manager to check -- to see whether I had,

22     indeed, made a mistake.  But with your leave I will now continue

23     questioning the witness.  I will change the line of questioning, and I

24     will answer -- provide an answer later.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We would certainly look forward to hearing your

Page 862

 1     answer, Mr. Djordjevic.  Thank you.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will

 3     now continue cross-examining the witness, and I will go back to this

 4     issue once I have checked everything.

 5        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, do you know, are you aware of the fact that

 6     Mr. Prascevic, the man that we have been talking about, was killed in

 7     Meja on the 21st of April, 1999, in the afternoon, and that two Serb

 8     policemen were also killed - Boban Lazarevic and Lugdrag Lazarevic.  And

 9     an Albanian Naser Arifaj was also killed and another Serb Miladin Docic

10     [phoen].  Do you have any knowledge of that incident?

11        A.   I know that they were killed but no more than that.  I heard, as

12     everybody hears of something, but I don't know anything else about them.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Since you don't know anything about that, I will not

14     be asking you any other questions about the circumstances of this

15     incident.

16             To complete this set of questions, I have several things to ask

17     you about, things that have to do with 1999 when you were telling us

18     about the tanks.  In your statement you spoke about five tanks in 1999;

19     today you corrected yourself, saying there was a mass of tanks, that you

20     didn't know how many there were.  Now I have to ask you:  Why didn't you

21     say so before?  Why did you wait until today to say it?

22        A.   The point was when we saw them for the first time, when we talked

23     about it.  After that date we saw them almost every day.  It was

24     something that happened every day.

25        Q.   This is the time when NATO air-strikes were already well

Page 863

 1     underway, April 1999.  Could you tell me, did you hear the aeroplanes

 2     flying over Djakovica and in the area around you, NATO aircraft?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   And since you were able to see so many tanks, did you see the

 5     NATO aircraft bomb those tanks?  Did you or did you not?

 6        A.   No, I didn't see the NATO aircraft bombing them.  We could hear

 7     the noise but we didn't see them, the actual bombing, at least I didn't.

 8        Q.   So we will agree that you did not see NATO aircraft destroy a

 9     single tank or some kind of an armoured fighting vehicle, and you told us

10     that there were so many of them.

11        A.   In my village, when we saw the tanks every morning going on,

12     moving on the Gjakove-Junik road, on that morning they didn't bomb.  In

13     the mornings the Serb forces usually undertook offensives on the

14     villages, as was the case with our village on the 27th of April.  During

15     our stay in Korenice, NATO did not bomb anything.  Nothing happened from

16     them.

17        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, now we come to the 27th of April, 1999, and this

18     terrible event, terrible for you and your family, when you lost your son

19     and husband, your next of kin, and I'm really sorry for it, but I have to

20     ask you this:  Can you tell me who were the soldiers who entered your

21     yard that morning?  What were they dressed like?  What were they

22     shouting?  How did they speak?  And how did they get there?  You told us

23     what weapons they had so I'm not asking you that.

24        A.   My yard was encircled by them, by 35 of them, with tanks,

25     Pinzgauers.  They approached my house by firing gun-shots, speaking in

Page 864

 1     Serbian.  My yard was full of them.  Around the house there were 35 of

 2     them.  My house was tightly surrounded by them.  My son Blerim Malaj, who

 3     at the time was 15 and a half years old, on that morning happened to be

 4     in the toilet outside the house.  He was the first one to be stopped by

 5     them.

 6             The second -- secondly, policemen, soldiers dressed in blue

 7     camouflage uniforms, they were all there.  It was a terrifying

 8     experience.  When I saw my son lying on the ground, a policeman or a

 9     soldier - you are here to verify that because we thought that only the

10     army had long-barrel weapons, not the police - I started to scream when I

11     saw my son lying on the ground.  The police or the soldier forced my son

12     to turn his head on the other side so that he could not see me.

13             We had three cars in the yard.  One belonged to us, to my

14     husband, and two, to my brothers --

15        Q.   I will have to ask you -- well, we heard this evidence from you

16     already.  We heard about this terrible event yesterday.  That's why I

17     interrupted you.  It is very difficult for me to ask you about the events

18     of this date, but I have to do it as a professional.

19             Now, regarding the army that entered, the troops that entered

20     your yard, you told us there were 35 of them.  It's a very exact figure.

21     Did you count them?  Is this how you know that there were 35 of them?

22     This is very important for us.  We need you to tell us that.

23        A.   There were 35, maybe more.  It couldn't have been less than that.

24     But I did say 35.

25        Q.   Very well.  I'm just asking you this because that's a large

Page 865

 1     number of people, and it would take you a long time to count them and you

 2     need to be very perceptive.

 3             Now, my next question is:  Were they all dressed in the same way;

 4     and if so, could you please describe it in as much detail as you can, as

 5     far as you can remember.

 6        A.   To my recollection, some wore masks; some had red ribbons around

 7     their arms; some were dressed in blue uniforms.  They were in my yard,

 8     inside my yard, four or five of them, with red ribbons, with painted

 9     faces, and they were holding their automatic rifles on the heads of my

10     son, my husband, my brother, three of them.  And they, my husband, my son

11     and my brother, were shot in their heads as they were positioned.  If the

12     Judges would allow me, I would like to show you their pictures.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Are these pictures that were taken at the time,

14     Mrs. Malaj?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photographs that we received

16     later, I have them with me.  My husband, my son, my nephew, my brother, I

17     have the pictures of all of them.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps what we'll do is let Mr. Djordjevic finish

19     his questions and then Mr. Neuner may want to follow that up.  He will be

20     asking you some further questions later.  So we'll wait for a moment,

21     ma'am.

22             Carry on, please, Mr. Djordjevic.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge.

24             In the meantime, as regards the objection of my colleague

25     Mr. Neuner, we've discussed it, and Mr. Neuner is completely right as

Page 866

 1     regards the reference.  The Defence was mistaken in its reference.

 2             So regarding what the witness said about heading to Meja, what my

 3     colleague said, it is completely correct, but there was some permutation

 4     of data in the course of our work on this case.  We're talking about the

 5     statement of the 31st of August and the 1st of September, 2000.  This is

 6     when it was stated that the police cursed her and insulted her and that

 7     then they took their tractors and headed towards Meja.  That's at page 3,

 8     paragraph 1, first sentence.  Of course this is the place where they

 9     stopped later.  It's practically the same place.  And since the witness

10     did not mention, to the best of the Defence's knowledge, that they were

11     ordered to go to Albania but only to Meja, this is why we asked this

12     question.  And I have to apologise once again to you and to everyone in

13     the courtroom for this inversion that we made.  So --

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.  I hope the witness

15     will appreciate that you have apologised that what she actually did say

16     in her original statement was that she was ordered to go to Albania,

17     which is what she has told us here again today.

18             Could we mention, Mr. Djordjevic, that it is a matter of concern

19     that if you're putting to a witness that something materially different

20     was said in a previous statement, there needs to be great care about

21     that; that strictly the proper way to be to show the witness the previous

22     statement, have them look at it and see what they said, and then comment

23     on any difference.

24             Now, we've been allowing you to short-cut that procedure a little

25     by just saying what you understand the witness to have said before, and

Page 867

 1     that can be very unfair to the witness if you haven't accurately

 2     identified what was previously said.

 3             We will keep this matter under observation, and in the meantime I

 4     ask you to be particularly careful when putting to a witness that there's

 5     been a change in what they have said from statement to when they gave

 6     evidence.  Thank you.

 7             Now you're moving on with your questioning of the witness, I

 8     believe.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is because I

10     want to be very careful that I have to say that when it comes to the

11     witness's statement that I've just referred to - and the date is 31st

12     August and 1st September 2000 - which was provided to the investigators

13     Paolo Pastore Stocchi and the interpreter was Valentina Kumnova, on

14     page 2 out of the total of 6, and at the beginning of page 3, second

15     paragraph, there's no reference to Albania.  The only reference is made

16     to the village of Meja, nothing else.  And that's why the Defence faced

17     the witness with that, calling upon an erroneous statement of the 6th of

18     September, 2001.  And this statement is of 31st August and 1st September

19     2000.  And we're going to propose for these statements provided by the

20     witness should be admitted into evidence by the Chamber.  I'm talking

21     about the 31st August statement and 1st of September statement 2000, and

22     also the statement given on the 6th of September 2001.

23             And now let me just look at the 65 ter list to be able to give

24     you the numbers of these documents.  The first witness's statement, given

25     the 6th of September, 2001, is number from e-court, the English version,

Page 868

 1     D001-3935; and B/C/S is D001-3941; and the Albanian version is D001-3947,

 2     for the minutes of the 6th of September.

 3             And the second document is marked as D001-3917 in English; B/C/S

 4     is D001-3923; and the Albanian version is D001-3929, or 3954, rather.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The second document

 6     is D001-3917.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

 8             MR. NEUNER:  We would have no objection having both statements

 9     tendered into evidence, Your Honours, so you can see yourself.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Could we indicate both to Mr. Neuner and to

11     Mr. Djordjevic that in accordance with decisions of the Appeals Chamber,

12     the normal procedure in this is not to receive into evidence earlier

13     statements; to simply rely on what is put to the witness in

14     cross-examination from a previous statement as accurately reflecting the

15     relevant part of that statement, and we then have the witness's comment

16     on that.

17             However, in this particular case, as there was a confusion as to

18     what was said earlier, it may be safer for us to receive the two

19     statements.  We'll do that on this occasion, but I would like both

20     counsel to be aware that that will not be the usual course followed.

21             We will receive the two statements.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The first one, Your Honours, dated the 6th of

23     September, 2001, will be assigned P -- D00025, and the other one dated in

24     August would be assigned D00026, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it's the 31st of August and the 1st of

Page 869

 1     September.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The 1st of September.  Both

 3     dates.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Before I proceed with my

 6     cross-examination, I would like to apologise to the Chamber for the

 7     confusion that I've created quite inadvertently.  In future I'm going to

 8     pay attention to avoid any such misunderstandings.

 9        Q.   With regard to the convoy which was moving towards Albania, am I

10     right in saying, based on your statement, that on the 27th of April you

11     were joined by people from the village of Guska on your way from

12     Djakovica?

13        A.   Yes.  People from Guska village were also in Korenice.

14        Q.   Very well.  In regard to what you have told us today and bearing

15     in mind the statement that will be admitted into evidence, on page 2,

16     paragraph 5, the last sentence reads:

17             "There were 17 people together with me, and there was also an

18     entire village population of Guska."

19             Let's clarify one thing:  Were there only 17 people with you, or

20     was everybody from Guska already in Korenica?

21        A.   Seventeen people from my family, my brothers with their families,

22     staying with me, while people from Guska, the entire village of Guska,

23     was in Korenice, but they were in different houses.  In my house we were

24     17.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malaj.  While the convoy was moving towards

Page 870

 1     Albania from Djakovica to Prizren and onwards to the border crossing, did

 2     you hear NATO aircraft flying and was there shelling at the time?  I know

 3     that a convoy did not come under the NATO shelling, but did you hear that

 4     there was shelling around the convoy anywhere?

 5        A.   Our convoy was not shelled or hurt by NATO on that day.  We were

 6     escorted by the police and the army but not by NATO.

 7        Q.   You did not hear me.  Did you hear NATO aircraft flying over

 8     Djakovica and Prizren on that day when you were moving in the convoy?

 9     I'm not asking you whether the convoy came under shells.  I'm asking you

10     whether you heard anything of the sort as the convoy was moving towards

11     the Albanian border?

12        A.   On that day I didn't.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malaj.  Do you know that on the day when you were

14     moving towards the Albanian border there were extensive military

15     activities and fighting in and around Djakovica between the Serbian

16     security forces and the KLA?  Are you aware of that?  Do you have any

17     information to that effect?

18        A.   I didn't hear that there was activities involving the KLA and the

19     Serb forces, but I did hear of the activities directed against the

20     civilians from the Serb forces.  They exclusively dealt with civilians.

21        Q.   Now that you've mentioned that, could you please tell me whether

22     on that day you were ill-treated in any way?  Was anything taken or

23     seized from you?  Were you harassed as you were moving towards the

24     Albanian border?

25        A.   No, not on the way to Albania.  But it sufficed what they did to

Page 871

 1     me while I was at home.  They killed my dearest.

 2        Q.   I will agree with you that that is true.  Do you know

 3     Merita Dedaj?  Does the name ring a bell?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Was she in the convoy with you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did she also go to Albania?

 8        A.   I don't know.  Up to Bistrazhin we were together.  The convoy was

 9     huge and we were not close to each other.  I know she was in the convoy,

10     but I don't know where she went to and where she stayed.

11        Q.   Mrs. Malaj, do you know that after a conversation with the

12     priest, members of the Yugoslav Army said to those who were on tractors

13     or on other vehicles to proceed towards Albania, and to those who were on

14     foot, that they should return to their homes, to their villages.  Are you

15     aware of that?

16        A.   I was on foot the whole time.  I don't know what they told to

17     people on the tractors.  I wasn't there.  But the priest, we called for

18     him.  He did his best to negotiate that we go to Osek Pasa or --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the second name.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the forces didn't let us go.

21     They said, You either go to Albania or you will be killed.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Didn't you say that you left your house on a tractor?

24        A.   No.  That day we couldn't take the tractor, neither the tractor

25     nor the cars.  I wanted to tell you before, but you interrupted me.  We

Page 872

 1     didn't have any cars or tractors.  They wanted the cars for themselves

 2     and they didn't -- did not allow us to take the tractors.  They even

 3     didn't allow us to get any food or drink.

 4        Q.   I apologise.  I asked you because I understood yesterday, you

 5     said it clear and loud that you were not allowed to take the car, but you

 6     were allowed to take the tractor.  However, now you've corrected me, and

 7     I appreciated that.

 8             When with you return to Korenica?

 9        A.   On the 3rd of July, 1999.

10        Q.   Your statement provided on the 6th of September, and this time

11     I'm going to double-check to be sure, tell me, please, not only in this

12     statement but in the previous ones provided in the year 2000, you were

13     not consistent about some things.  You said that some houses in the

14     village were damaged after you were expelled to Albania and yours was

15     torched.  Did I understand you correctly?

16             MR. NEUNER:  Just out of caution, before the witness answers,

17     could we please have the references.  It's some kind of suggestion you're

18     making here to the witness, and we don't have a page number --

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.  Of course, I'll

20     oblige immediately.  Page 5, or rather the last page in all the versions

21     - the English, the B/C/S, and the Albanian - it's the last paragraph, or

22     the second on the page.

23             "I returned to Kosova on the 3rd of July, 1999.  Some houses in

24     the village were damaged after our departure and expulsion to Albania.

25     When I returned I found my house had been burned down, and there was

Page 873

 1     nothing there for us," and this is what I mentioned in my question, and

 2     this is the record of the statement given on the 31st of August -- I

 3     apologise, the 6th of September, 2001, and signed in September 2001.

 4     This is what I'm reading on the record, but the record was made on the

 5     6th of September.  It says that some houses were damaged and hers had

 6     been torched.

 7             This is actually the end of my cross-examination of this witness

 8     today.

 9        Q.   I would like to ask you this:  You said that some houses had been

10     damaged, and as far as I can understand, there were 70 families in the

11     village, but I did not understand how many houses there were in the

12     village.  The fact that there were 70 families does not have to mean that

13     there were as many houses.

14        A.   The whole village -- I'm going to speak about my house first.  So

15     my house, the whole neighbourhood, the whole village, was burned down.

16     Maybe only ten houses escaped the damage or were not burned, ten houses

17     in all.  All the other houses were burned down, starting from my house,

18     including my house, and all the other houses.  And when we were leaving,

19     I could see the smoke coming out of them.  I told you yesterday, when we

20     were leaving, about 15 houses were burning at the same time.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malaj.  You actually repeated something that you

22     already said yesterday, and that's why I wish to ask you this:  In the

23     statement that I showed you today, why did you say that some houses were

24     damaged when you returned?  When you say "some," one might conclude that

25     it was 10 to 20 percent and the rest were okay.  And today you're saying

Page 874

 1     that the whole village had been burned down?  Can you please explain the

 2     difference in the statement that you provided back then and what you are

 3     saying now?

 4        A.   The whole village was burned down.  Only ten houses escaped at

 5     the time.  All of them were burned.  Even the houses that were only

 6     damaged, they were uninhabitable.

 7        Q.   You said that yesterday, you said it just a minute ago, and you

 8     have just repeated it.  I still haven't got a clear answer to my

 9     question.  When you were providing your statement, why did you say that

10     some houses were damaged, and now for the third time you're repeating

11     that the whole village had been torched?  I see a difference here, and

12     I'm asking for an explanation, if you can provide one.  If not, I'm not

13     going to insist.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness seems to be saying that the whole

15     village -- excuse me a minute, please, that the whole village was burned

16     except perhaps for some ten houses.  I think the whole, less ten, is the

17     way she's putting it, rather than the whole.

18             Perhaps the witness might like to clarify that.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This is exactly how I understood

20     it, Your Honour, twice today and once yesterday; however, I face the

21     witness with her own statement in which she stated on the last page, on

22     the fifth page of the record, that some houses were damaged.  She never

23     mentioned that the whole village had been torched.  And my logical

24     question arising from this is how come she did not mention back then,

25     when she was providing her statement, that --

Page 875

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] -- the whole village had been

 3     torched.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

 5     ... damaged when it is burned down and the house is uninhabitable.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any

 7     more questions for this witness.  I see that the witness has had a very

 8     hard time being reminded of the tragedy she went through.  I am not going

 9     to insist on this last answer, although I did not get a clear answer from

10     Mrs. Malaj.  I would like to apologise to Mrs. Malaj for any

11     embarrassment that I might have caused her with my questions.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

13             Mr. Neuner.

14             MR. NEUNER:  I would just ask, because the -- there was some

15     overlap between the translations, that the witness may repeat her last

16     answer.  Because I checked the transcript, and I see only five, six words

17     here.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

19        Q.   Could you just repeat what you said a moment ago, because the

20     translators couldn't catch it, please.

21        A.   Yes.  Isn't -- well, you were speaking here about damaged houses.

22     These are houses that were uninhabitable.  All of them were damaged and

23     burned.  Only ten houses were not.  Most of them were uninhabitable,

24     damaged, burned down.  Myself, as a person, I went to my home, and I

25     couldn't live in my home.  I went to Kosova but not to my home because I

Page 876

 1     couldn't live there.

 2        Q.   Could I just ask you, for the ten houses who were not burned

 3     down, how were they damaged?

 4        A.   Doors were broken down, windows were broken, furniture had been

 5     trashed, walls had been damaged.  Everything inside was damaged, and the

 6     houses were looted, television sets and other things.  But I didn't

 7     mention these things in the statement, but these things had happened.  We

 8     could see that when we returned.

 9        Q.   Could I ask you, just relating to the tractor, you mentioned that

10     on the 27th of April you -- 1999, you left also your tractor behind.

11     When you returned, where was your tractor?

12        A.   We didn't find it there.  It had been taken.  The cars were

13     burnt --

14        Q.   I'm just asking for the tractor.

15        A.   Well, it was not there in our courtyard.

16        Q.   Did you manage to recover the tractor since?

17        A.   No.  To this day we haven't been able to recover it.

18             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions, Your

19     Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll be very pleased to know, I'm sure, that

21     that completes the questioning for you.  The Chamber would like to thank

22     you very much for coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you've

23     been able to give.  We appreciate that it is a very big strain for you to

24     have to go over these events, and we will look with care at the evidence

25     that you've been able to give to help us.  So we would thank you very

Page 877

 1     much, and the court officer will now assist you and show you out of the

 2     courtroom.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  The next Prosecution

 8     witness is Mr. John Sweeney.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Mr. Sweeney will be testifying about the

11     allegations in paragraph 75(C) and paragraph 77 of the indictment.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will have Mr. Sweeney brought into

13     court.  Thank you.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, sir.

16             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Will you please read the affirmation which is on

18     the card now being passed to you, Mr. Sweeney.

19             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

20     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  JOHN PAUL SWEENEY

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  You could sit down now.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz has some questions for you, to your

25     right.

Page 878

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

 3        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please state your name for the

 4     record.

 5        A.   John Sweeney.

 6        Q.   Before I start with my questions, since we're both going to be

 7     speaking the same language today in court, I just want to ask you to

 8     pause between question and answer so the interpreters in the courtroom

 9     can do their job properly.

10             Sir, where and where were you born?  When and where?

11        A.   I was born in Jersey, the Channel Islands in 1958.

12        Q.   And I understand that you're a journalist by profession; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   For how long have you been working as a journalist?

16        A.   Oh, crikey.  Since 1977 off and on.  It was before I went to

17     university I had my first job, The Economist, and full time since 1981,

18     which is whatever that is, 20 years, 30 years.

19        Q.   Where are you currently employed?

20        A.   The BBC.  I work for Panorama, which is the main investigations

21     TV programme on British television.

22        Q.   And since when have you been working for the BBC?

23        A.   Since 2001.

24        Q.   In your capacity as a journalist, have you ever covered events in

25     the former Yugoslavia?

Page 879

 1        A.   Yes.  I started reporting from Belgrade, Vinkovci, Osijek,

 2     Dubrovnik, the siege of Dubrovnik, in 1991, in 1992, the war was started

 3     in Sarajevo, and I covered the story fully from 1991 through to 1994, and

 4     then I went back to Kosovo in 1999.

 5        Q.   And can you tell us what your work in Kosovo was about?

 6        A.   Essentially I -- I had, if you like, two jobs.  My first job was

 7     that I was a reporter for The Observer newspaper, and I had to write a

 8     report pretty much every week of what was going on.  At the same time I

 9     got a commission from channel 4's Dispatches programme to do a story

10     about a massacre.  Essentially what happened was that if you remember the

11     time scale of this, the --

12        Q.   When -- could you tell us when this happened, when this --

13        A.   Yeah.  There was the Serb -- the Serb army attack, led by

14     President Milosevic, took place in the spring of 1999.  Albanian refugees

15     in the hundreds of thousands fled to Albania.  And as journalists, we

16     couldn't get into Kosovo because the Serb authorities prevented us from

17     doing our job and some people just couldn't get visas.  Because of my

18     previous reporting, I was pretty sure I wouldn't get a certain visa or

19     any real meaningful freedom to report.  So you were stuck on the other

20     side, on the Albanian side.  And it was there that I saw, when I was

21     working for The Observer, I saw a group of exhausted men.  We were quite

22     close to the Albanian Kosovo border, on the Albanian side, obviously, and

23     I talked to these men, and they had said they had been -- they had

24     escaped from a massacre of their friends and relatives, in Little Krusha,

25     Mala Krusa, in Albanian, Krusha e Vogel, and that event stuck in my mind.

Page 880

 1     It is always better, in my experience, when you've got a huge thing

 2     happening to concentrate on one particular story, rather than getting

 3     lost in the mass of it.

 4             So I went back to Tirana, and channel 4 Dispatches said, Right

 5     now, let's do this story, it sounds good.  And then we toured Albania

 6     trying to find surviving witnesses to this massacre at Mala Krusa.

 7        Q.   Do you recall approximately when it was that you came across this

 8     group of refugees who told you about --

 9        A.   It was -- I believe it's April 1999.  It was immediately before

10     their Easter holidays.  Sorry, it could well have been March.  I believe

11     our programme appeared in May.  So those dates, I'm sure there is

12     paperwork where you can -- you can see this.  But it's hard for me to

13     remember -- I don't want to say something precisely and then be wrong.

14     But I believe it was March, April when I met these chaps, and then we

15     went looking in April and the programme appeared in May.

16        Q.   Could you explain a bit more of how you went about trying to find

17     witnesses or survivors of this massacre?

18        A.   The story was that there was a man with burnt hands and he had

19     hidden underneath the dead bodies.  The whole of Albania was cram-packed,

20     jam-packed with Kosovo refugees, some 800.000, I believe, had fled, some

21     huge numbers of people, and they were staying in schools, in sports halls

22     with relatives all over the place.  And there was no rhyme nor reason, no

23     logic, no central pooling of information.  So what we had to do was track

24     them down.  And I went around saying, Is anyone here from Mala Krusa or

25     Krusha e Vogel?  And finally we started to track down witnesses, and we

Page 881

 1     found the man with the burnt hands, and we found the women --

 2        Q.   Can I stop you there just so we can play a clip from your

 3     documentary you produced at the time.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  This is 65 ter 0114, and we're going to see it --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm finding it very difficult to catch what you're

 6     saying, Ms. Kravetz.  I'm sorry, could you just keep your voice a little

 7     a little up.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm sorry.  Yes.  I think I'm a bit far from the

 9     microphone today.

10             We're going to play a short clip.  This is 65 ter 0114.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "THE PRESENTER:  But there are so many claims of massacre.

13     What's needed is hard evidence.  We set out to uncover what really

14     happened in just one small place.  We set out to find someone who didn't

15     just hear of the killing but saw it with their own eyes.  We set out to

16     name the killers.  Albania, Europe's poorest country, has had to cope

17     with an avalanche of humanity, finding anyone from Little Krusha, just a

18     thousand souls in the chaos of half a million of refugees is not going to

19     be easy.

20             "We are looking for people from Krusha e Vogel.  We are looking

21     for people from Krusha e Vogel.

22             "To help me I called up an old friend, the writer Agim Neza, who

23     knows his way around."

24             MS. KRAVETZ:

25        Q.   Sir, do you recall when these images that we just saw were

Page 882

 1     filmed?

 2        A.   They would have been filmed in April.

 3        Q.   And where were you when we saw you there?

 4        A.   I think that was some kind of reception centre for refugees.

 5     From memory, I think that could well be Tirana.  I'm not sure.  Because

 6     as -- we went looking around the whole of Albania.  We were based in

 7     Tirana, so it was the obvious place to start.  I think we ended up in

 8     Elbasan.  But there were -- there was an awful lot of refugees, and we

 9     did an awful lot of digging before we found people, because it was like

10     looking for a needle in a haystack.

11        Q.   Was the situation in other refugee camps you visited similar to

12     the conditions we saw here in this clip?

13        A.   Yes.  I mean, that was -- essentially things were desperate to

14     begin with because there were so many people and the weather was worse.

15     So when they originally came over the mountain side, the -- eastern

16     Albania, close to the border with the former Yugoslavia, is very poor,

17     very backwards.  There's no facilities.  So people's lives are desperate.

18     As they got down towards Tirana, things were better.  So with those

19     conditions actually are some of the better conditions of some of the

20     refugee camps.  As time -- you know, as the weeks went by, things got

21     better, but life was grim.

22        Q.   And you told us you were able to find some eye-witnesses to the

23     massacre.  Could you tell us what -- what they told you had happened in

24     Mala Krusa?

25        A.   I need to be very precise about what we saw and what we filmed.

Page 883

 1     There was a large number of women and children who witnessed the

 2     selection, which is men -- you know, men to one side, men and boys to one

 3     side; women and the younger children and the younger boys to the other.

 4     So they, in a sense, did not witness the massacre itself.  What they saw

 5     was the selection, and they said, they identified some of their Serb

 6     neighbours.  Even though they had balaclavas on, they could tell who they

 7     were because they lived with them for so many years.

 8             Also, we were looking for a group of -- a tiny group of men, who

 9     I understand were six, who had actually been in the hay barn, the Batusha

10     hay barn, had been machine-gunned but had managed to survive by hiding --

11     by falling first and avoiding the bullets and being protected by the dead

12     on top of them.  And what happened with the hay barn is that after the

13     machine-gunning, I was told, that the barn was set on fire, and one of

14     these man had burned hands.  I believe his name is Mehmet Krasniqi, or

15     Batusha.  We found him, and he was the first guy.  And then we found two

16     or three other of the survivors, and we put those in our film.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to play a second clip from this same

18     exhibit, if we could proceed with that.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             "THE PRESENTER:  At last we were about to meet a witness of the

21     ethnic cleansing at Mala Krusa.  This is all that is left of the Batusha

22     family; grandmother Batusha, the wives of her missing sons, and their

23     youngest children."

24             MS. KRAVETZ:

25        Q.   Could you comment on the images we just saw?  Who were these

Page 884

 1     women and children who were on this video?

 2        A.   The old lady is Granny Batusha, and she lost a number of her

 3     sons.  One of them was working on a building site in Germany, and he

 4     survived.  But many of her men in the family, either husbands and the

 5     older sons of the women in the picture, they'd all been killed in the

 6     massacre.  I believe I'm right in thinking that she lost eight men or

 7     boys.  So you see the women, and there are no men.

 8        Q.   And how were you able to locate these members of the Batusha

 9     family?

10        A.   We kept on asking, and eventually we found somebody who knew

11     where they were, and I think they were staying with relatives in Elbasan.

12     So having found the house, we went to the house, and we knew we were --

13     we found a family who had been directly affected by the massacre.  So

14     essentially the -- the story which I'd started with, these were people

15     who knew what had happened because they had witnessed -- the women and

16     children, they hadn't seen the massacre.  They'd seen the selection and

17     then heard the machine-gun fire, so they were good witnesses.

18        Q.   Did these women tell you anything about who was responsible for

19     the killing of the men in the Batusha family?

20        A.   Yes.  They identified them.  Remember, this is a village half

21     Serb, half Albanian, which had been very peaceful, and so that the

22     problems which had visited both communities before in 1998 hadn't

23     happened in that part of Kosovo and in particular in that village.  So

24     they were still friends and -- they thought they were friends, and they

25     knew the villagers very, very well.  They lived with them all their

Page 885

 1     lives.  So even if you stick a balaclava on, you can still tell somebody

 2     from the way they walk and so forth.  In particular, they singled out a

 3     number of people, one of whom was Dimitri.  He's an old silver-haired

 4     man.  And Sava Nikolic, Sveta Tasic, those were two other names that I

 5     recall.

 6             We didn't have faces; we didn't have photographs of them.  It was

 7     difficult to work out, and obviously in television you want to find

 8     faces.  You want to show faces of these people.  So what I was determined

 9     to do when NATO was actually going into Kosovo was to go to Mala Krusa

10     and find out more and find out for myself, and that's what we did.

11        Q.   When you were filming this documentary that we just saw, were you

12     able to enter Kosovo?

13        A.   No, it was impossible.  It was impossible to do it safely.  Some

14     people had -- I know there were some western journalists who were in

15     Belgrade.  My problem is that my track record as being a previous critic

16     of the Milosevic regime and that of my newspaper would have made it

17     difficult for me to enter Serbia, and it was even more difficult to get

18     into Kosovo.  For me it was impossible.

19        Q.   When was this broadcast aired or this documentary aired?

20        A.   I believe it was aired in May.  I'm sorry to be fuzzy.  I can't

21     remember the precise date, but I think it was roundabout May the 20th.

22     The Milosevic indictment was announced a couple of days after our

23     programme.

24        Q.   And what was the name of this documentary we just saw clips of?

25        A.   I'm -- the second one is called "Prime suspects."  I think this

Page 886

 1     one is called "Witness to Murder."  I'm not sure.

 2        Q.   Okay, that's fine.  How did you proceed to interview the

 3     different persons that you met in Albania when you were preparing this

 4     first documentary?

 5        A.   We had a translator, obviously.  I don't speak Albanian.  And we

 6     would sit down and talk to people.  The women, we interviewed all at the

 7     same time.  As time progressed, it struck me that as well as doing a

 8     piece of journalism here, there was something more, actually that we

 9     were -- in a place that we were ahead of the war crimes investigation,

10     because I knew there was going to be a war crimes investigation, and it

11     struck me that it was important, as much as we could, to interview key

12     witnesses separately and away from other people, as much as we could,

13     because we wanted to get their evidence on its own and to be, if you

14     like, as correct and forensic and evidential as possible.  So when we did

15     track down the people who had actually been in the hay barn and survived,

16     the plan was to try and interview them on their own or in very small

17     numbers.

18        Q.   And did the accounts of the different persons you interviewed in

19     relation to this incident corroborate each other, or were there

20     disparities between the different accounts?

21        A.   There's always a small number of little conflicts, but

22     essentially the story as told was corroborated by each other.  And the

23     story was, and I think the numbers -- my numbers are right, but I believe

24     there was 109 men and boys were selected, taken to the hay barn.  Then,

25     they told me, the survivors told me, the machine-gunner came, and he was

Page 887

 1     late and he -- all of the men were facing with their backs to the

 2     machine-gun, with their hands over their heads like that.  They actually

 3     showed that.  The machine-gun blasted away.  The survivors fell down very

 4     quickly and then other men fell on their -- fell on top of them.  And

 5     many of the men were not immediately dead, and they could hear the

 6     groans.  Then the barn was set on fire and most of the Serb killers had

 7     run away.  And then the last few survivors ran out of the barn and ran

 8     away and they managed to escape.

 9             So that is the kind of fundamental story which everybody who --

10     all of the survivors told, and it was corroborated in some way by the

11     women and children who had seen the selection.

12        Q.   And did these different persons that you interviewed give you any

13     indication as to when this massacre had taken place?

14        A.   Yes.  Again the dates -- I haven't got my original notebooks with

15     me.  The precise date is on the -- the precise date is I think in the

16     film, but I don't want to -- I can't remember it off the top of my head

17     right now, and I'm frightened of saying something which might be wrong.

18     So I'll -- can I get back to you?  Can I --

19        Q.   That's fine.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this documentary,

21     this exhibit, at this time.  It's P -- it's 00114.  That's the 65 ter

22     number.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00297, Your Honours.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I'm going to move on to a different

Page 888

 1     topic, so I wonder if we could take the break early, just because I want

 2     to show some other clips, and they will be interrupted if we begin with

 3     them now.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have the second break now and

 5     resume at five minutes to 6.00.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Sir --

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm sorry, I was having some problems with my

13     headphones.  That's why I was speaking so softly before, but now that's

14     been solved, thanks to my case manager.

15        Q.   Sir, before the break you were telling us that while you were

16     investigating this first documentary, you were determined to go to Kosovo

17     and find out for yourself what had happened at Mala Krusa.  Did you

18     eventually make it in Kosovo?

19        A.   Yes.  With the -- when the British Army went into Kosovo, I went

20     with them.  I rode on the front of a tank.  We arrived in Pristina, and I

21     did my stuff for The Observer.  And then after a few days in Pristina, I

22     met up with a cameraman James Miller, and we went down -- I believe we

23     went to Prizren first, established a base, and then went the next day to

24     Mala Krusa.

25             Remember what's happened here is that we've actually -- we

Page 889

 1     arrived in Mala Krusa before everybody else did, because most of the

 2     Albanians were still -- the Kosovars were still back in Albania because

 3     they hadn't been given the all-clear to come back to their homes.  So we

 4     arrived, and we were ahead of the majority of the survivors, and we saw a

 5     scene of destruction.

 6        Q.   Sir, do you recall approximately when it was that you entered

 7     Kosovo?

 8        A.   I'm thinking the 14th of June.  Is that -- that was the very

 9     first day when NATO went in.  I went in with NATO, so I believe that's

10     the 14th of June.  Is that right?

11        Q.   That is -- well --

12        A.   Yes.  Yes.  And so anyway, it's mid-June, but it's the first day,

13     and we went in to Kosovo.

14             Now, lots of Kosovo was intact, i.e., you drive past and you

15     wouldn't be able to see that there had been some kind of war taking

16     place, and certainly that's true of the hinterland towards Pristina.

17     When you went toward Prizren, Mala Krusa, places like that, there was a

18     complete difference, from the Albanian homes - and we heard from people

19     that they were Albanian homes - but you could see they'd lost their

20     roofs, they'd been burnt down, they'd been wrecked and destroyed.  And

21     the Serb homes were at that point intact and the Serbs who had been

22     living in them were -- if they were in a large village of community where

23     they felt safe, they stayed.  But most of the rest had fled.  So when we

24     arrived in Mala Krusa, the village was empty.  All the Albanian homes

25     were gutted, without roofs, burnt, and the Serb homes were empty but

Page 890

 1     intact.

 2        Q.   Now, you told us that you had prepared a second documentary which

 3     was called "Prime Suspects."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What does this documentary deal with?

 6        A.   This documentary dealt with the -- the story -- it took the story

 7     further on.  Essentially we -- for the first time we were able to see for

 8     ourselves what had happened in Mala Krusa.  We were able to see the site

 9     of the Batusha hay barn where the machine-gunning had taking place.  We

10     were able to see the homes and get the geography, and I was able to go

11     into the Serb homes -- remember, as a journalist, I was looking for

12     photographs.  I wanted to put a face to these names.  And for that reason

13     I was looking for things like passports, and what I found was army

14     passbooks.  But essentially we did a much more detailed film, and we were

15     able to put faces and names to the people who did the killing.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to play a second -- a third clip, and

17     this is a clip from Exhibit 6 -- 00115, if we could view that briefly.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "THE PRESENTER:  It's mid-June.  The war is over.  Hours after

20     NATO rolls into Kosovo, I'm close on their heels.  The Serb forces are

21     retreating, but liberation comes too late for 10.000 murdered Albanians.

22              "Krusha e Vogel?  Krusha e Vogel?

23              "Our murder inquiry starts at the scene of the crime.  This is

24     Little Krusha, a ruin of a village in a ruin of a country.  You can't get

25     to the bottom of 10.000 murders.  You can try with a hundred.

Page 891

 1     Little Krusha is empty, abandoned, yet full of ghosts.  This is the

 2     aftermath of ethnic cleansing."

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:

 4        Q.   Mr. Sweeney, are these images we saw just now part of the second

 5     documentary that you filmed regarding the massacre in Mala Krusa?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, we saw a series of destroyed houses on the screen.  How many

 8     of the houses in Mala Krusa looked like the ones we just saw there?

 9        A.   It's hard to -- I don't want to put a precise number on it, but I

10     would say dozens, so in the region of something like at least 20 or 30

11     houses of the sort were gutted, were wrecks.

12        Q.   And you told us that you saw destruction of Albanian homes but

13     that Serb homes had been left intact.  How were you able to tell which

14     ones were the Serb homes?

15        A.   Well, because of the nature of what happened, the Albanians had

16     run away to Albania, the majority of them and left their homes empty, and

17     then they'd been burnt, as I understand it.  So they weren't around to

18     defend their homes so that the -- one became very used at that precise

19     time in thinking that if it -- if a house had no roof, it had been -- it

20     was Albanian, and if a house was intact, it was Serb.

21             Now, what happened later was that as it -- as the Albanians came

22     home into Mala Krusa, they realised that the Serbs weren't going to come

23     back because of the massacre, and then they decided to burn the Serb

24     homes, and we also put that in our film.  But when I first arrived, all

25     the Albanian homes, it seemed to us, were wrecked and not the Serbs.

Page 892

 1             There had been -- some of them had been kind of looted.  I went

 2     into -- I went to some of the Serb houses and people had -- the Albanians

 3     had come in and sort of rummaged around, possibly looking for money.

 4     They'd certainly sort of put clothes and stuff, so that they looked

 5     messy, but essentially the buildings were intact, hadn't been set on

 6     fire.

 7        Q.   And you gave us a date earlier of mid -- sometime in mid-June.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   That would be the time when -- was that the time when these

10     images we saw were filmed?

11        A.   Yes.  I think we're talking about -- if NATO went in on the 14th

12     of June, if I'm right - it's either the 12th or the 14th, I can't be

13     quite sure - then the week -- basically as quickly as possible, so within

14     a -- I think on the Sunday, that would be the 15th, I went to Prizren

15     and, therefore, we started filming the 16th.

16             Remember, this is a film where we -- when you make a film you

17     shoot images all the time and then you edit them, so not every image will

18     have been taken in a kind of linear sequence.  Having said that, when we

19     interviewed people, we were pretty -- we make a lot of effort to be

20     correct about that.  So we wouldn't jump-cut an interview or get it

21     completely, the timing, wrong.

22             The film is essentially linear in that this happened and then

23     this happened and then this happened.  So first arrival, mid-June.

24     Albanian homes in Mala Krusa destroyed by fire, and the Serb houses were

25     empty.  The Serbs had left, but their buildings were intact.

Page 893

 1        Q.   You told us earlier that you were able to find the barn where you

 2     had heard this massacre had taken place.  How were you able to find the

 3     Batusha barn?

 4        A.   It fooled us as first.  We didn't see it.  There was no barn.

 5     There were two holes in the ground.  There was a field and two holes in

 6     the ground.  Later, a few days later, it rained heavily and the water

 7     appeared and that's where I believe there's some still photographs of it.

 8     But essentially we didn't know what we were looking at.  We were looking

 9     for a hay barn because the women and children had described the hay barn,

10     but we didn't know that it had been dynamited.  But we kind of deduced

11     that when somebody said, No, no, no, it's here, it's here, it's here.

12             And then looking at the image of the hay barn, it seems to me

13     that at some point the Serb soldiers dynamited the hay barn, and you got

14     a kind of blast effect.  there's a building against which it was leaning

15     and there are two holes in the walls of that building, and that's -- I've

16     been to lots of war zones, so this is an educated guess, but they put

17     some dynamite in, and the force of the explosion blew those holes in the

18     brick-work of the adjoining building.

19             There was -- if you see, there was a boot.  Somebody left a boot.

20     I believe there was a couple of bones.  Now, they could be animal bones

21     or human bones, I don't know, but it looked suspicious.  And that was it.

22     There was no -- there were no dead bodies; they'd all gone.  So it was a,

23     you know -- we -- I don't know what I was expecting, but what we found

24     was, it seems to -- it seemed to us at the time, a deliberate attempt to

25     destroy the evidence of mass killing.

Page 894

 1             By the way, in the clip I'd spoke of 10.000 deaths.  Now, the

 2     film, I believe, went out in September.  Again, I'm guessing; I can't be

 3     sure of that.  And at the time 10.000 deaths was the best journalistic

 4     estimate, and obviously the war crimes tribunal, other people hadn't done

 5     their work.  I understand the number is around 5.000, between 3.000 and

 6     5.000.  That's a more correct number.  So obviously the 10.000 number

 7     that I cited in the film then, may well be wrong.  Obviously that was

 8     the -- it was the best journalistic estimate we could do at the time.

 9        Q.   When you said the film went out in September, you're referring to

10     the second --

11        A.   The second film.  It went -- obviously, we -- it could have even

12     been October.  I'm not sure.  It's ten years ago, so I can't remember

13     precisely.  But essentially what happened was from mid-June, I stayed

14     there for a month.  And my friend and colleague, the cameraman,

15     Jonas Miller, he, I believe, stayed on longer or came back for a second

16     visit while I was on holiday with my kids.  So there is -- there are some

17     scenes which are at the end of the film where I wasn't physically

18     present, but he shot them.  In particular, this is the burning of the

19     Serb houses by the Albanians.  It's in the film.  I wasn't physically

20     there, but you can see it.

21        Q.   And this burning of Serb houses by the Albanians happened

22     approximately when?

23        A.   I'm talking roughly, but it's something like four weeks after

24     June the 14th, so sometime in July, late July when I was -- when I was on

25     holiday.

Page 895

 1        Q.   Okay, very well.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to play a further clip from this same

 3     documentary, if we could proceed with that.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "THE PRESENTER:  The trail of evidence begins with the hay barn.

 6     But where is it?  The village is full of gutted hay barns.  One of the

 7     first refugees to return is someone who had actually survived the

 8     machine-gunning.  Everything he owned is ashes, and that is not the worst

 9     of it.  Xhemajl Shehu [phoen] lost 40 members of his family.  He knows

10     exactly where the hay barn is.  The last time Xhemajl had taken this path

11     he had been forced at gunpoint along with 111 men of his village.  The

12     hay barn isn't here anymore.  Instead, just a crater.  No bullets, no

13     blood, no bodies.  The Serbs had blown it up.

14              "I still find it hard to believe that I'm alive.  I wished

15     they'd killed me rather than my sons.  Here I lost two of my sons, three

16     brothers, and five nephews.  Altogether 40 of my family were killed.  Now

17     I have to look after what's left of my family.

18              "This man, Rasim Batusha is the owner of a hay barn.  He is

19     alive because he was away working on a building site in Germany.  Now

20     everything is gone.  Twenty-two of Rasim's relatives were murdered here,

21     among them his three brothers and his eldest son."

22             MS. KRAVETZ:

23        Q.   Sir, in those images we saw one of the survivors of the massacre.

24     How were you able to locate this person?

25        A.   Essentially we would spend the whole day, every day, in

Page 896

 1     Mala Krusa for about a month, and so we would meet -- we'd meet people,

 2     and I'm sure we met Mr. Shehu in the village.  Obviously, we were -- we

 3     wanted to hear his story and we filmed him.  We filmed an interview with

 4     him, and then we would sort of see him around.  But we were -- we

 5     wanted -- obviously, as a journalist, a simple focal point, we wanted to

 6     talk to survivors of the massacre.

 7             Mr. Shehu was a good witness.  He's not a particularly vivid man.

 8     I don't mean that to be a criticism of him.  It's just that he's

 9     perhaps -- well, he'd been through a terrible thing.  So we -- having

10     interviewed him, we were still on the lookout for more witnesses who

11     could describe the sequence of events leading up to the massacre and what

12     happened afterwards as well.

13        Q.   We just saw images of the crater on the ground.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You mentioned that some days later it had rained.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So was the crater later filled with water?

18        A.   Yes.  There were two holes -- essentially there were two holes in

19     the ground, maybe two sticks of dynamite, I don't know, but -- and they

20     later filled -- it rained heavily one day, and it filled with water.  So

21     the pictures you've shown me earlier are of -- there is water in the

22     holes.  So when we first arrived there was no water, so those photographs

23     were taken after we'd been there.

24        Q.   What was the next step in your investigation?

25        A.   Well, we continued to -- what we wanted to do was put names to

Page 897

 1     faces, so we'd heard in Albania about Dimitri -- the reason we'd heard

 2     about Dimitri Nikolic was that Granny Batusha recognised him, and she

 3     actually -- because after the selection, he had appeared, again I believe

 4     wearing a balaclava, but obvious to someone who had known him all his

 5     life.  And she said, Dimitri, as if -- well, she was expressing her

 6     outrage and her shock and disgust that, this man who'd been a neighbour

 7     all his life, had taken part in the killing of her family.

 8             And so we were looking for him and physical images of him so we

 9     could put them on the tele, obviously, and in the newspaper.  And

10     Sveta Tasic, Sava Nikolic, and so we had two or three names, and as time

11     wore on, we built a bigger and bigger picture.

12             We also came across two pieces of evidence which were a -- what

13     appeared to us to be a rota, like a guard rota.  I'm mentioning that they

14     had the Serb men put themselves into some kind of -- in English we'd call

15     it a home guard arrangement, and we found one piece of paper and were

16     given a notebook by an Albanian lady who knew we were looking for this

17     stuff, which was -- set out this rota.  So there were two separate pieces

18     of information.

19             I picked up the first one -- I picked up the piece of paper

20     myself, and we got the notebook from one of the Albanian women who had

21     been away, who had come back, who had been away from Albania and come

22     back, and she found it.

23             And also, we went into -- I went into the empty Serb houses

24     before they were torched by the Albanians later and looked for -- I was

25     looking for photographs and films and home movies or whatever, so we

Page 898

 1     could see these people, and that's how I came across the army passbook.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we see another clip from this same

 3     documentary, if we could play that now.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "THE PRESENTER:  I've got to be careful.  The Serbs have left

 6     booby-traps all along the place.  Mines are still claiming lives here.

 7     Our first break, photographs from the Nikolic family album.  There appear

 8     to be as many Nikolics in Little Krusha as there are Sweeneys in Donegal.

 9              "Our second break, a handful of Serb home videos.  With a bit of

10     luck, our suspects might have starring roles.

11              "Our third break, Nikolic Sava.  Sava Nikolic.  The Serbs were

12     outnumbered 10:1 in Kosovo.  They were the ones with the fire power.

13     Nearly every Serb, man, and boy in the village was armed and mobilised in

14     the local militia.  The Serb militia were careless.  They left this

15     behind.  It looks like a scruffy exercise book, but it's material

16     evidence.  In it are a series of names of soldiers who were on guard in

17     Little Krusha after the massacre.  Amongst the names are two that are

18     becoming all too familiar:  Sveta Tasic and Sava Nikolic.

19              "And there's another find.  The duty rota, another item of

20     material evidence.  It's astonishing they've left this behind.  This list

21     identifies 24 names, making up three militia platoons in Little Krusha.

22     Some we know have formed.  The document places all 24 men on militia duty

23     in the village.  All of these men know something about the clean-up

24     operation.  Some of them know something about the murders.  All are

25     suspects now."

Page 899

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice.  In the clip we saw you

 3     entering a house.  Whose house was that that we saw you entering?

 4        A.   I believe the first house -- basically that's a compilation of

 5     shots.  I believe the first house is Dimitri Nikolic's house, and the

 6     second one is Sava Nikolic's house.  It's a long time ago so I'm -- that

 7     is my memory.  It may be wrong.

 8        Q.   And who informed you that these were the houses of these two men?

 9        A.   The Albanian people like Mr. Shehu who said that, That's where

10     Dimitri lives and that's where Sava Nikolic lives.  It was a kind of --

11     it wasn't a very difficult exercise because one knew what the Serb houses

12     were, partly because some of them had Cyrillic, Serbia united will never

13     be defeated, the four Ss and some of them -- and all of them were intact,

14     they hadn't been burned down.

15             So essentially I think what I did was I went to all of the houses

16     in the centre of the village which were intact.  There was a risk to

17     this, and in some ways I was bloody lucky, there was in the village -- we

18     did find that there was a stream, and we went and looked at it.  And

19     there was a trip wire for a booby-trap connected to a grenade, which had

20     I tripped it would have blown off, and I might not be here.  So we didn't

21     know for a fact whether they had booby-trapped their own homes.  Our

22     hunch was that they left in such a hurry once NATO had come in, that they

23     left very, very quickly, and that's what happened.  But it was a slightly

24     nervous operation going into these houses because you didn't know whether

25     we'd come across a booby-trap.

Page 900

 1        Q.   Now, we saw you holding a notebook in one of those images.  Is

 2     that the notebook you were referring to earlier?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   That was provided by a local Albanian woman?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And we also saw you with a separate sheet of paper?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   That was something you discovered yourself?

 9        A.   Yes.  It was in a house -- it was in a Serb house lying around.

10     I didn't -- I can remember picking it up.  I can't remember which house.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have Exhibit 02328 up on the screen.  Oh,

12     we can't?  Is there a problem?  I can show it to the witness if there's a

13     technical problem.  I can --

14             JUDGE PARKER:  The issue is whether you're going to exhibit the

15     film clip.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  I am, but I'm going to continue -- we're going to

17     view it later, but I can show the two exhibits later, to the witness.

18     It's no problem.  We can continue with the video-clip for now.

19        Q.   Sir, what did you do with the photographs that you found in this

20     house?

21        A.   We took them back to London, and we had -- we actually had an

22     embarrassment of riches because we had loads of home videos of the Serbs

23     of Mala Krusa, plus the passports, plus the photos or whatever, so we --

24     we selected -- having heard from the Albanians who their -- who were the

25     people they knew, they recognised, the women and the -- the surviving

Page 901

 1     women and children recognised from the selection, and so we put those in

 2     the programme, and then we gave all of the material to the -- to you, to

 3     the war crimes tribunal.

 4        Q.   You referred to the surviving women and children recognising the

 5     persons from the selection.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   When did this happen, that you showed these photographs to the

 8     surviving women and children?

 9        A.   We -- we did it several times, but again it was -- it was all in

10     this matter of time period.  Essentially what happened, and you can see

11     from the film, there is a moment when the Batusha family come back

12     from -- from Albania, and they arrive -- and remember, this is the first

13     time.  they never saw the massacre.  They only saw the selection and then

14     heard the machine-gun.  So they fear their men are dead and that their

15     men and sons and boys are dead, but they don't know it as a fact.

16             So it was a horrendous scene to witness, and you can see it in

17     the film, the women are screaming.  But this is the first time that they

18     realise that their men are dead.  They also, when they left, their homes

19     were still upright.  Some were being burnt, but they hadn't seen the

20     level of destruction.  So they come home and they realise their homes are

21     burnt to cinders, and their men are still missing, and the hay barn is a

22     hole in the ground.  So there's this sort of ghastly timing when all of

23     the -- ghastly time when the women of the Batusha family realise what's

24     happened.

25             After that we went on the -- sorry, various things are happening

Page 902

 1     all at the same time.  We went on our photograph -- I went to get hold of

 2     the photographs and the passbooks and all of that stuff when the village

 3     was still empty, before they'd come back.  Once they'd settled down and

 4     recovered their equilibriums, we went to not just one but a number of the

 5     Albanians and said, Who's that?  Who's that?  And who's that?  And

 6     various of the Albanians recognised their neighbours, and said, Right,

 7     that's Dimitri Nikolic.  That's Nikolic.  That's Sveta Tasic.

 8             So again we were conscious of the war crimes tribunal, and at the

 9     back of my mind, I wanted more than one, if you like, one source of

10     information.  The more sources of information we could have, the better,

11     the stronger the identification.  So we checked it out with a number of

12     people.

13             In Albanian society, men -- the women are used to not -- it's the

14     men who take the kind of public roles or whatever, so we ended up showing

15     the photographs, I think, to Mr. Shehu and one of the other survivors as

16     well.  That's the clip that we use in the film, but we did more of it.

17        Q.   And what did these different people tell you about the

18     photographs?  Were they actually able to identify --

19        A.   Yes, they were -- they'd known these people all their lives.

20     They lived with them.  They helped start their cars in the cold, et

21     cetera, et cetera, so they knew them very, very well.  And they were

22     immediately able to identify them very, very confidently as the people

23     that they had seen take part in the selection -- these are the women now,

24     take part in the selection which led to the massacre.

25        Q.   Do you recall who were the persons that they identified as being

Page 903

 1     responsible for --

 2        A.   There were three --

 3             THE COURT REPORTER:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, but the question is

 4     not done yet before the witness is answering.  It's making it very, very

 5     complicated to write this.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  The process, I'm afraid, is that there is a

 7     consequential translation into a number of languages, and if we don't get

 8     recorded on here the full question before you commence the answer, we

 9     lose either part of the first question or part of your answer.  So if

10     it's possible, both Ms. Kravetz and for you as well, Mr. Sweeney, to try

11     and watch the screen --

12             THE WITNESS:  It's been switched off, in my defence.  Which

13     button is it?  It's that one there.  Sorry.  I do apologise.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  That's not directly your fault, Mr. Sweeney.  The

15     problem's identified.  We will now try and pace the question, pause, the

16     answer, so that we don't get ahead of those trying to record and

17     translate.  Thank you.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:

19        Q.   If you can just complete your answer.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:

22        Q.   If you could just complete the answer you were given.  I was

23     asking whether the persons you had shown -- who the persons you had shown

24     the photograph to had identified as being responsible for this massacre.

25        A.   The people they identified -- in a sense, the film is -- the film

Page 904

 1     is a better memory than mine, but the three names that stick out:

 2     Dimitri Nikolic, because he was the head of the -- of the Nikolic clan.

 3     He was the old man.  Sava Nikolic and Sveta Tasic.  And they may not have

 4     led the massacre.  They were just the best known people the villagers,

 5     the women in particular, recognised in -- taking part in the selection.

 6             By the way, there's something that happened just in terms of

 7     understanding.  When this -- the massacre was a consequence or followed

 8     the NATO air-strike, the NATO air campaign, which started in the spring.

 9     Then the Serbs came, and they arrived, and the villagers -- the Albanian

10     villagers told me that they came from buses.  So the men, the Serb --

11     Serb soldiers came in buses, some of them with Nis plates, so they knew

12     the buses were Nis.  This is the Albanians.

13             All of the Albanians ran up into the hills and -- behind the

14     village and stayed there overnight and were kind of persuaded to come

15     back to the village the next day.  Everything would be okay.  They came

16     back.  Then later that day, as I understand it, was the selection and the

17     machine-gunning.

18             So there had been quite a time-frame for the Albanians to

19     recognise their Serb neighbours, and what -- those three men, they placed

20     them there.  Now, I don't know who was in charge of the massacre, and I

21     doubt whether Serb farmers who are part-time soldiers would be in charge

22     of it.  It's just that the Albanians said, Right, I know him and him and

23     him.  So that's the -- that's the strength of the identification.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could play a further clip from the

Page 905

 1     documentary.

 2             THE WITNESS:  This one?  Okay.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "THE PRESENTER:  I'd taken a pile of photographs from the Serb

 5     houses.  I began with a list of four suspects.  Now I've got 24.  But are

 6     any of these mugshots of the men I'm looking for?  The next step is to

 7     get Mehmet and Xhemajl together to identify the line-up.

 8              "Dimitri Nikolic, Momcilo Nikolic, Zvesdan Nikolic, Sveta Tasic,

 9     Sava Nikolic.

10             "He was the first to shoot at us.  As our families were heading

11     for the mountains, Sava shot at us from his house.

12              "Now we can put faces to names.  Sava Nikolic.  His comrade in

13     arms, Sveta Tasic.  Their friend and neighbour Momcilo Nikolic, and his

14     uncle Dimitri Nikolic.  Now we know what the men on our wanted list look

15     like, we can start to track them down.  But what exactly is the evidence

16     against them?"

17             MS. KRAVETZ:

18        Q.   Sir, we had seen you earlier with a notebook and a piece of paper

19     you had found with what looked like a roster.  Were the names of these

20     four individuals that appeared here on our screen on those documents?

21        A.   I believe so.  Without having the documents in front of me, I

22     can't check that authoritatively.  I've hit the right button.  So I

23     believe so, yes.

24        Q.   For how long did you remain in Kosovo after filming these images?

25        A.   Well, we were essentially there for -- I was there for a month

Page 906

 1     and my -- which actually, in terms of television time, is a long time.

 2     Normally you can make a film, with a budget you've only got so much, and

 3     I was here to do a film for, say, two weeks or whatever.  But what

 4     happened was that we -- so after a month, I left.  And I believe that

 5     James stayed on or James came out while I was on holiday to film the

 6     funerals of the dead men.

 7             There had been a change.  The UCK, the KLA, had not been around

 8     when we first arrived in Kosovo.  At the funeral, the KLA presence was

 9     very strong.  There was an armed guard.  And I remember James complaining

10     to me about these so-and-sos from the KLA, because they were getting in

11     all his shots, and they were giving a sense of -- of this being a kind of

12     military event, and also that they were very much in charge.  That had

13     not been the case when we first arrived.

14             Then what happened is that we had an undercover Serb reporter

15     working with us who identified where the Nikolics were in Serbia, and she

16     tracked them down and tried to film them.  We were hoping to catch

17     Dimitri Nikolic on film, and we -- well, I don't think we got him.  We

18     were pretty clear that it was there, but at that time in 1999 it was a

19     very, very difficult -- ask for this undercover reporter to effectively

20     risk her life or potentially risk her life in actually naming these

21     people that were suspicious.  But that was the end part of the programme.

22             I, myself, didn't return to Kosovo.  Having spent a month there,

23     we had, in fact, too much information about this appalling event.

24        Q.   And how were you able to identify where the Nikolics were?  Who

25     provided that information?

Page 907

 1        A.   I'm not entirely -- well, I don't know the process exactly, but

 2     essentially we had -- there was -- that's a question better for our Serb

 3     undercover reporter who were the -- there was -- you could find out, I

 4     think, once you were in Serbia, once you were Belgrade, you could find

 5     out where families were, or roughly where communities had gone to.  So it

 6     wasn't an impossible job for her because she was Serb and based in

 7     Belgrade.  So she managed to do that.  How exactly she did that, I don't

 8     know.

 9        Q.   And do you recall approximately when it was that she tried to

10     track these persons down and --

11        A.   Well, it's obviously -- you see, I can't -- from this distance,

12     from ten years on, it's difficult for me to remember precisely.  But

13     essentially it's after we finished in Kosovo, we brought the material

14     back to London.  Then we sent it on to her.  So she -- that would have

15     happened in late July, August, 1999.

16        Q.   Now, you had told us earlier that in your view the site where the

17     Batusha barn had been had been blown up.  Are you aware of whether there

18     were any attempts made to try to recover the remains of those that had

19     been killed there?

20        A.   No.  I mean -- well, there may well have been -- the problem is

21     this is a -- all one can do is deduce from the evidence on the ground, so

22     what we're looking at is two holes on the ground, but I was looking for

23     bodies.  We thought that there were -- we looked all around, and then

24     obviously the river Drina is close by.  It's, what, about 2 kilometres

25     from the village itself.  So one thing you could do is you could -- if

Page 908

 1     you burned the bodies in the hay barn, set fire to it, you then -- with a

 2     tractor, you can dump them in a river.  It's a big strong river, lots of

 3     snow melt, so it was one place we looked.  And we did find the lorry, and

 4     I swam in the river, and I thought I saw blood on the side of a lorry.  I

 5     may have been mistaken.  What we didn't find was dead bodies.  We looked,

 6     but we didn't find any human remains.

 7             Hold on a second.  We found a few human remains.  By this time

 8     the war crimes tribunal had arrived, forensic people working for the

 9     Tribunal, and I think they found -- they may have found evidence.  We

10     never found a big gravesite.

11        Q.   You say that forensic people who were working for the Tribunal

12     arrived.  Do you recall approximately when that was?

13        A.   It was around about -- it was towards the end of our stay there,

14     bearing in mind -- so we'd been there from mid-June, and I think I -- for

15     The Observer, I'd had to leave Mala Krusa a couple of times, but I came

16     back to continue filming and looking for evidence.  And I believe that

17     they would have arrived in July, early July.  That's my guess.

18        Q.   And was your film crew still filming there at the time?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  So we filmed -- we filmed them.  Their first base was

20     in -- remember, there was a -- there was also a smaller massacre of

21     around, I believe, 20 people, or 12, I can't remember in this distance,

22     in Greater Krusha, which was further up the road, and I believe they went

23     there first, and then they came to Mala Krusa.  There was a parallel BBC

24     team filming in Greater Krusha, and I believe that the BBC filmed the war

25     crimes people, and we didn't.  I think that's my memory.

Page 909

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  Can we play a final clip from this same

 2     documentary.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "THE PRESENTER:  Two months after the end of the war, forensic

 5     experts from Scotland Yard arrive in Little Krusa.  They're working for

 6     the war crimes tribunal in The Hague, but they've been busy.  There are

 7     10.000 murders to solve in Kosovo.  Their task is to find out who was

 8     killed and how.  There's precious little for them to do at the hay barn,

 9     so they're probing what's left of this second murder site in the village.

10     There's not much to go on.  A button, a belt, a smear of blood, a

11     backbone."

12             MS. KRAVETZ:

13        Q.   Now, sir, you referred earlier to a smaller massacre site being

14     filmed.  Do these images correspond to --

15        A.   No.  Sorry, I've just put the LiveNote up.  There are three

16     separate events.  In Greater Krusha, I have forgotten what it is in

17     Serbian, not Krusa Mala but something else.  In Greater Krusha there was

18     a small massacre -- there a massacre, I believe, involving around 20

19     dead.  In Mala Krusa there was the hay barn, in which 103 people were

20     killed and six survived, as I understand it.  And then down the road,

21     also in Mala Krusa, but on the other -- sorry, on the other side of the

22     road but still in Mala Krusa, I believe seven people were killed in that

23     house we've just seen.  So that's -- the smaller massacre I was just

24     referring to a second ago was in relation to Greater Krusha, not this

25     scene.  I believe about seven people were killed there.  But yes, I've

Page 910

 1     forgotten, we filmed the war crimes forensic people at that place.

 2        Q.   I'm being reminded that we need to pause between question and

 3     answer.  The reporter is having problems recording what is being said

 4     because you're starting your answers too quickly and not allowing her to

 5     finish typing my questions.  So I would just ask you to keep an eye on

 6     the screen, and when the cursor stops, you can start with your answer,

 7     just to allow her to do her job properly.

 8        A.   I'm sorry.

 9        Q.   It's okay.

10             So, sir, do you know whether any remains were found at the site

11     of the barn itself by the forensic team that was there conducting its

12     exhumations?

13        A.   I don't know the answer to that.

14        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Sir, I would --

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this exhibit

16     at this stage.  This is Exhibit 65 ter number 00115.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  This will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00298, Your Honours.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we please have Exhibit 02328 up on the

20     screen.

21        Q.   Do you have the document before you, sir?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you recognise that document?

24        A.   I believe it's one of the documents that I -- that I picked up.

25     I'm not sure whether it's from the notebook or whether it's the piece of

Page 911

 1     paper.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we see the next page.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Again, I'm not sure whether it's the notebook

 4     or the piece of paper.  In fact, you probably know better than I do.  But

 5     that is the -- there are the names, obviously, in the -- you can clearly

 6     recognise in the middle, you've got Tasic Sveta, Nikolic Sava,

 7     Nikolic Ranko, and they seem to be on the night shift.  The date is

 8     between the 16th and 17th of April, 1999.  My understanding is -- I can't

 9     quite remember, but I believe the massacre took place in late March, so

10     this is after the massacre.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to tender this document into evidence

12     at this stage.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00299, Your Honours.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now -- could we now please have 65 ter

16     02327 up on the screen.

17        Q.   Do you recognise this document, sir?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could you please comment on the document.

20        A.   Well, again, it's my guess, you've got three groups here.  These

21     are -- if this is some kind of home guard militia, they're -- they're in

22     what looks to be like three guard duties.  So one takes a day shift, one

23     takes a night shift.  This whole time the Serbs are under the NATO

24     air-strike campaign, and they're afraid that at some point NATO and the

25     KLA will enter Kosovo, as, indeed, they did.  And therefore this is the

Page 912

 1     local organisation -- I'm guessing this.  I don't know this for a fact.

 2     But this is the local organisation of the Mala Krusa Serbian militia, and

 3     obviously the names -- you've got the Nikolic family and the Stankovics

 4     and the Petkovics.  These are all names that the villagers recognised.

 5             Again, group II -- to be precise, I don't know who commanded the

 6     massacre.  It's just that this is what the Albanians told me these are

 7     the people they recognised:  Sava Nikolic -- again, when Mr. Shehu,

 8     Xhemajl Shehu, he is the old man who lost 40 members of his family, he

 9     said it was Sava Nikolic who shot at them as they were going up the hill,

10     and that happened on the first day.  So remember, there were two days.

11     There's the NATO strike.  Then the Albanian villagers leave the village

12     for the hills.  They're going away from the river, away from Albania,

13     into Kosovo.  They're heading roughly, as I understand it, east into the

14     hills.  And at that point according to Mr. Shehu, Sava Nikolic shot at

15     them.  That's why his name -- they identify him from his house.

16             The others, Dimitri Nikolic, Granny Batusha saw.  So to an extent

17     I was being led by the Albanians into concentrating on these people

18     simply because they recognised them.

19        Q.   Now, is this document and the other document we just looked at

20     the ones we saw earlier in your clip, the clip from the documentary?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So would this have been documents that you found or persons found

23     and gave to you during your investigation --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... of Mala Krusa?

Page 913

 1        A.   I think my memory is correct in saying that I found the piece of

 2     paper and somebody else handed me the notebook, or the other way around.

 3     I can't remember.  But I'm pretty sure I found the piece of paper, and an

 4     Albanian lady found the notebook.

 5        Q.   And where did you find this piece of paper?

 6        A.   In the Serb houses.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this exhibit.  It's

 9     0232 --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00300, Your Honours.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

13     witness at this stage.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Looking at the time, I think it would be not

15     useful to commence cross-examination, Mr. Djordjevic.  So what we will do

16     is adjourn now.  We have only five minutes to go.  We will adjourn now to

17     resume tomorrow and hopefully to complete the evidence of Mr. Sweeney in

18     the course of that tomorrow.

19             Could I remind counsel that we are sitting tomorrow afternoon.

20     Due to changes with some other trials, we have now been moved to the

21     afternoon, so we will resume at 2.15.

22             Mr. Sweeney, if you would be able to return then to, I hope,

23     complete your evidence, we'd be grateful.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We now adjourn.

Page 914

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

 3                           February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.