1 Monday, 16 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. It is unfortunate, but it was
6 necessary for us to start late because the previous Trial Chamber ran
7 overtime. We are now ready to get underway with the next witness.
8 Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness is Mr. Lufti
10 Ramadani, and he will be led in chief by Ms. Tove Nilsen.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lutfi --
12 MR. STAMP: Lutfi Ramadani.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Could the Chamber mention for counsel that
14 the practice we would like followed with any witness that is to be --
15 have the advantage of Rule 92 bis or Rule 92 ter, that when the statement
16 is tendered, a short summary of its contents, shorter in the case of
17 Rule 92 ter than Rule 92 bis, should be read by counsel into the record.
18 This then enables, in particular, members of the public who are here and
19 those who are following proceedings more remotely to have at least a very
20 brief understanding of the nature of the evidence which the witness has
21 given and which is set out in the statement of the witness's evidence
22 which is tendered, so that in particular for Rule 92 bis, but less
23 extensively for Rule 92 ter, counsel should be prepared with a short
24 summary of the essential points of the evidence of the witness.
25 Now, it may be that that having been announced today, it will not
1 be feasible to be introduced today. We will see. Thank you.
2 MR. STAMP: If I may ask one question before we proceed. Should
3 the summary be done in the presence of the witness or before the witness
4 comes to the well of the court to testify?
5 JUDGE PARKER: It should be done in the presence of the witness
6 because in the case of 92 bis, unless the witness is here for
7 cross-examination, there will be no witness. In the case of Rule 92 ter,
8 a statement is not tendered until the witness has identified it and
9 confirmed its correctness. So inevitably, the witness will need to be
10 here for the purposes of 92 ter.
11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Is the witness available?
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Nilsen. I beg your pardon.
15 Good afternoon, sir.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation which
18 is on the card that has been handed to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: LUTFI RAMADANI
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
24 Ms. Nilsen.
25 MS. NILSEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
2 MS. NILSEN: Witness Lutfi Ramadani will testify about
3 allegations in paragraph 72 A and I, paragraph 75 C, and paragraph 77,
4 Schedule C, in the indictment.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
6 MS. NILSEN: Before I go ahead and read the summary of
7 Mr. Ramadani's previous testimony in court, I will ask him a few
9 Examination by Ms. Nilsen:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Is it correct that you were born in the municipality of Suva
13 Reka, the 20th of March, 1944?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. Is it also correct that you are a Muslim of Albanian ethnicity?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it also correct that you are residing in Krushe e Vogel, or
18 the Serbian name of the village, Mala Krusa, where you have lived since
20 A. Yes, at Krusha e Vogel.
21 Q. You have lived there since 1958; is that also correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. I would also like you to confirm whether you are married and have
24 two surviving sons.
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Is it also correct that two of your sons died the 26th of March,
2 1999, Mr. Ramadani?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And now, Mr. Ramadani, do you recall that you gave a testimony as
5 a witness in court before this Tribunal last time in September 2006?
6 A. That's correct, yes.
7 Q. Did this testimony reflect what happened to you and your
8 neighbours and your family and the village Krusha e Vogel in March 1999?
9 Is that a yes?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And did you, Mr. Ramadani, have the opportunity to read through
12 this testimony before you came here today?
13 A. Yes, I did read it.
14 Q. If you were asked the same questions today that you had given
15 last time you testified in court, would you give the same answers today?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender 65 ter 05104,
18 which is the transcript of Mr. Ramadani's testimony given the 28th and
19 the 29th of September, 2006, into evidence.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00306, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE PARKER: In which trial was that given?
24 MS. NILSEN: That was given in the trial of Milutinovic et al,
25 the Mos, Your Honours.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
2 MS. NILSEN: And then, Your Honours, I would like to give a short
3 summary of the witness's testimony from September 2006.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Nilsen.
5 MS. NILSEN: The witness describes that in -- the 25th of March,
6 1999, his family left their house and they hid in the woods as the Serb
7 police had surrounded and commenced shelling the village Krusha e Vogel.
8 They started to burn the Albanian houses. He explained in court that he
9 and his family and several hundred other people spent the night in the
10 house of Sejdi Batusha. There were approximately 500 together, the night
11 from 25th to 26th of March. He explained that two other families
12 remained in the woods.
13 The witness describes in his previous testimony that the Serbs
14 were wearing camouflage uniforms, black and blue police uniforms, and
15 that he also saw tanks and so-called APCs positioned around the village.
16 The witness will further -- or he further explained that the
17 group of people that was gathered in Sejdi Batusha's house was ordered
18 from the yard onto the road outside this house the next day, the 26th, in
19 the morning, and then the men were separated from the women. The younger
20 boys from 13, 14 age had to stay with the men. The women were ordered to
21 go to Lake Vermacija
22 correct - after being forced to hand over their personal belongings. The
23 remaining men who the been separated from their women were then forced to
24 line up in columns, and they were taken down the road into a cow-shed, a
25 hay barn, which belonged to Qazim Batusha.
1 When they came into this cow-shed, a policeman arrived and he was
2 carrying a big machine-gun, and he told his colleagues that, I will take
3 care of this, or similar. The Serbs with the machine-gun appeared in the
4 doorway and fired upon them. The witness fell on the ground together
5 with all the other who were gathered in this barn, and there were over a
6 hundred together. A lot of men fell on top of him.
7 The witness described in his previous testimony that when the
8 machine-gun stopped, when the person who fired ran out of bullets, he
9 heard the sound of single shots, and he described it as whoever who could
10 raise his head after this machine-gun shooting were being finished with
11 single shots.
12 The witness then described that he could hear the sound of
13 burning and that the cow-shed starting to burn.
14 The witness also described that the crippled villager, a man who
15 was confined to a wheelchair, Sait Hajdari, was positioned in the doorway
16 of the cow-shed, and the witness had physically to move him from the
17 doorway in order to be able to escape, which he managed.
18 He will also explain, and he explained in his testimony, that
19 according to him, six people together managed to get out of this burning
20 barn, this burning cow-shed, while there were men laying around them
21 dead, covered in blood, and the barn was burning.
22 The witness told that when he managed to get out of the barn, he
23 started to run and he started his escape. Outside the barn, he saw
24 several policemen talking to each other on the road outside this barn,
25 and he explained that he recognised some of them. He explained that
1 these people he recognised were Stankovic Bosko, Sejko [phoen] Stankovic,
2 Stanko Nikolic, Rade Nikolic, and Cvetkovic Bosko.
3 The witness also described that while he managed to escape from
4 the bullets and the fire, amongst the killed people were his two sons,
5 his brother, and his nephew; and his youngest son was 14 years old.
6 The witness will then describe -- or he described his escape
7 route from the burning hay barn along the road where they were shot at
8 because they were discovered by the Serbs. He explained how he fled into
9 the stream and then up into the forest where he remained for several
10 days. He described also that he could smell a terrible smell from the
11 burned body in the village during his stay in this forest.
12 The witness made a list in 1999 of the men that as to here -- as
13 to his knowledge lost their lives during this event, and he confirmed
14 that this list was the correct one last time he testified for the
16 Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE PARKER: That statement is -- that previous transcript of
18 evidence has been received as Exhibit P306. Is there anything further,
19 Ms. Nilsen?
20 MS. NILSEN: Not from the summary, Your Honours. Thank you. I
21 will -- I have several questions to the -- to the witness, if I may.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
23 MS. NILSEN: Thank you. Your Honours, I am aware that we have
24 already put up a map of Krusha e Vogel, Kosovo, during testimony of the
25 previous witness, but I would like to have a brief look at an unmarked
1 map, also, for this witness. So may I please have 65 ter number 00615
2 put up on the screen, page 22.
3 If we could zoom in a little bit on the area of -- a little bit
4 more. Is that possible? Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I know this is -- it's not very easy to read on
6 this map, but are you able to find your village Krusha e Vogel on the
7 map? Could you please point at it, please?
8 A. I cannot see very well. This is Prizren, and that is the road
9 that should normally lead to Krusha e Vogel. I -- my eyesight is not
10 quite up to the point, and I cannot discern it very well.
11 MS. NILSEN: Could we have the witness to mark it on the map,
13 JUDGE PARKER: He can't mark because he says he can't discern the
15 MS. NILSEN: Yes, if it's possible to zoom it a little bit.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me take the other pair of
18 MS. NILSEN:
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I just ask you to mark --
22 A. That's Prizren, right? It should be round about here. I can't
23 notice the letters. They are way too small. I'm not able to -- to work
24 out what it is. This is Prizren. This is Gjakova. It should be round
25 about in that area. That's the road that leads to Rahovec. If you are
1 able to zoom in so that I could see the letters properly, I'd be able to
2 mark it.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Is there any other map you can show me?
5 Q. [Previous translation continued]... not, Mr. Ramadani, but ...
6 A. I think there must be another map which I have seen before.
7 Q. Yes. That might be correct, Mr. Ramadani, but I think you --
8 A. In -- the map that I myself have compiled is much clearer than
9 this one.
10 Q. But this is better with -- with unmarked -- are you able to see
11 Krusha e Vogel from here, Mr. Ramadani? If not, we'll just ...
12 A. No.
13 Q. [Previous translation continued]... It's not very crucial
14 importance, so I think that we can just skip it if you can't see it.
15 A. I don't think I'm able to.
16 Q. [Microphone not activated] [Overlapping speakers]
17 A. I can't see it. I can't see it with my naked eye. My eyesight
18 is not that strong.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. Fine.
20 MS. NILSEN: I will go on, Your Honours.
21 Q. Mr. Ramadani, if you can tell the Court, prior to March 1999,
22 approximately how was the ethnic distribution in the village Krusha e
23 Vogel? How many houses, approximately, were Albanian, and how many were
25 A. There were 70 Albanian households in Krusha e Vogel. Thirty
1 households were Serbian.
2 Q. Thank you. How as far to your knowledge did the different
3 ethnics co-exist before March 1999?
4 A. There was no problem whatsoever between the Albanians and the
5 Serbs. There was nothing wrong in the relations between the Serbs and
6 the Albanians.
7 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I would like to go to the transcript,
8 page 6. Exhibit 00306.
9 Q. You have told previously that you were more than 500 people who
10 fled into the woods the 25th and that you heard firing from the village
11 that you had fled from. What happened to the people who remained in the
12 woods and those who did not spend the night at Sejdi Batusha's house,
13 Mr. Ramadani?
14 A. They spent the night in the woods up until the very morning.
15 They had something to eat. They had something to eat, and they were able
16 to survive the night. They were able to listen to what was happening,
17 but they spent the night there in that little creek, around that little
19 Q. Do you know how many there were?
20 A. Eight people, two families.
21 Q. Can you mention the surname of these two families?
22 A. Liman Hazeri with his wife and their son Avdyl, his brother Nebi,
23 Nebi's wife, and Luan. There were two others who were also in the same
24 company, two children. Avdyl was the one who was disabled, and that is
25 why it was impossible to move him. They carried him on the 26th to get
1 him to where the rest of the population was.
2 Q. Thank you. What happened with the people who spent the night in
3 Sejdi Batusha's house? What happened the next morning? What did you
5 A. On the evening of the 25th, we went there because it was very,
6 very cold. There were elderly people, women who had given birth two or
7 three days earlier, and that is the reason why we headed toward Sejdi
8 Batusha's house, where we spent the night. When we woke up on the 26th
9 in the morning, almost the entire population that was there emerged into
10 the courtyard. That is at about 7.00 in the morning. We just observed
11 and listened to what was happening on the outskirts of the village.
12 However, on the 25th and the 26th, shelling resumed on the part of the
13 Serbs of that village, as well as the policemen and the others who had
14 come to their aid. They started setting fire to the houses of the
15 Albanians. Initially they went to the houses to carry out their looting,
16 after which they set fire to the houses. They brought trucks. They
17 filled them up. As soon as the trucks and lorries were on their way,
18 they set fire to the villages, and the fire was approaching the
19 population. At the same time, Isen Kanjusha was killed in his own
20 courtyard by the Serbs and --
21 Q. I'll stop you there.
22 A. -- the police were in the vicinity. Forgive me.
23 Q. Sorry. You said the policemen and the others. Who are these
24 others that you're talking about?
25 A. There were the Serbs from the same village. Some had their
1 uniforms on; some were in civilian clothing. There were others, as well,
2 policemen in uniform who had come all the way from Prizren or from
3 elsewhere. I'm not sure. So they kept approaching the population while
4 setting fire to the properties, and when they approached to Milaim
5 Batusha's house, which is adjacent to Sejdi Batusha's house - I can show
6 that on the map if need be - and then they -- in fact, we -- we were
7 beginning to get scared because they started removing some tiles from the
8 houses and shooting from there. On Milaim Batusha's house, they just
9 opened the windows on the first floor and put the automatic rifles
10 through, and they observed us. When the women saw that had they killed
11 Isen, some of them -- some from amongst the women started fainting.
12 There were quite a few who went to fetch some water when they heard from
13 the windows the order not to move, not to go to fetch any water on pain
14 of death, which meant that nobody was able to move, and we had to stand
16 Q. [Microphone not activated]
17 A. And we only used the water that was available to pour onto their
19 Q. Okay. I want to know, when you were inside Sejdi Batusha's
20 house, did you have any discussion with each other, what to do? Did you
21 hear about any arrangements that had been made previously that maybe
22 affected on what you did next?
23 A. Others were involved in -- in talking what to do. I wasn't
24 involved. We heard that there was some sort of talks between Albanians
25 and Serbs, but I myself was not personally present, and I don't know what
1 happened. I think there was some elderly gentlemen who were involved.
2 They have since departed. But I personally am not aware of what kind
3 of what kind of talks they had. Whatever agreement they were able to
4 reach, however, was never -- was never observed by the Serbs.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you please describe what happened next? You
6 are -- you have already told that you saw a man being killed, and you
7 named this person. Can you please mention it again?
8 A. Isen Kanjusha, who was killed in his own courtyard, which is
9 adjacent to the house of Sejdi Batusha. We were able to see him being
10 killed from the courtyard of Sejdi Batusha's house, and that is the
11 reason why women and men and everybody got scared. Police came and
12 established themselves in Milaim's house, which added to the fear amongst
13 the children and the women and the men that were over there.
14 Q. Thank you. At some stage, you were gathered together with the
15 people who had spent the night in the woods. In which way did this
16 happen? How were you gathered together, and can you please tell the
17 Court what happening then when you are there together in the yard?
18 A. Do you mean what we were in that courtyard or when we were in the
20 Q. I mean when you were in this courtyard and the people from the
21 woods afterwards gathered together with you.
22 A. Okay. I understand it now. When we were ordered not to move to
23 go and fetch water, they called for a volunteer to go to them. Aziz
24 Shehu went, and he was ordered -- he was given ten minutes to go and
25 summon the people who were up in the mountains to come down. Aziz went.
1 As I said, it was Liman Hazeri, and they carried Avdyl and brought him to
2 join the rest of the people there, and as soon as that happened we were
3 ordered to move out of the courtyard and onto the road but to leave
4 everything behind, clothes, everything, and just go out into the road.
5 Q. Thank you. Could you please describe, Mr. Ramadani, who these
6 people were that was giving you and the other women, everyone these
7 orders? Can you describe them?
8 A. Policemen. They were policemen.
9 Q. And can you just describe briefly their uniforms, how you were
10 seeing them? Were they wearing weapons, and which kind of weapons?
11 A. Blue uniforms, while their weapons -- they had automatic weapons
12 and pistols and knives, everything that the policemen usually have as
13 weapons. There, all of them were policemen, while the army, they were
14 along the asphalt road and on the hills.
15 Q. Thank you. And when you were then separated from the women and
16 brought to this barn, the cow-shed, do you remember anything from the
17 walk down the road, who you were walking next to and what you saw?
18 A. We remained on the road for some time until they separated the
19 men from the women. They told the women to leave in the direction to the
20 left and told us to go in the direction to the right. The women set off.
21 Cvetkovic Djordje, a policeman, ordered two other policemen to go and
22 fetch the other children who were up to the age of 13 and bring them
23 where the men were. So these two policemen went to get the children, but
24 the women couldn't let their children go. They started to use force.
25 The women started screaming and yelling, and they told them to shut up
1 and threatened to kill them all.
2 So they asked them, What are we supposed to do now? You took our
3 men. You took our children. And they said to them, You can go and drown
4 yourself in the Drini River
6 So after they separated the women, we were told to kneel down and
7 to put our hands over our heads. We stayed in that position for some
8 time. Then some policemen came. They were dressed in uniforms and wore
9 balaklavas. They maltreated us for some time. We remained there for
10 some time again. They took all our money and documents. They told us to
11 empty our pockets. They told Adem Jusufi to collect all the items that
12 we took from our pockets and bring them to one of the policemen. So then
13 they ordered us to stand up and to form columns of three and to walk
14 along the road.
15 When they went to take the children from the women, my young son,
16 who was 13, was one who was brought in.
17 So we were walking along the road, and when we arrived at Qazim
18 Batusha's house they ordered us to stop. They took us directly to the
19 barn. This barn had walls, concrete blocks. There was fodder for the
20 cattle there. The owner used to keep the cattle inside there in the
21 past, but he didn't at the time when we were taken in.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. NILSEN: I would like to put up 65 ter 00099. It's aerial
24 photographs of Mala Krusa.
25 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you recognise the village of this picture?
1 A. Now I can see it better on this photograph.
2 Q. Is it hard to see the details? If you like, we have a -- another
3 picture, but I would like you to describe the things you see here if you
4 can. Can you see --
5 A. I can using this photograph or another photograph. There is no
6 problem on my side.
7 Q. We'll start with this first, Mr. Ramadani. Can you first please
8 point out on the photograph the house where you lived, your house with
9 your wife and your kids. Can you see this from this --
10 A. This one here is my house. I marked it.
11 Q. Thank you. Just leave it there. Yeah. And then if you can draw
12 a circle around the house of Sejdi Batusha where you spent the night.
13 A. We were in the woods here. The woods are nearby, and this is
14 Sejdi Batusha's house, these three houses which are a little bit up and
15 this one here. There was another one, but it cannot be seen on this
17 Q. Please draw a circle around this house, Mr. Ramadani. Sejdi
18 Batusha's house.
19 A. Shall I encircle all the houses that I mentioned, all his houses,
20 or only the house where we were?
21 Q. Only the house where you spent the night.
22 A. We were here in this one.
23 Q. In the big house there?
24 A. And this is the courtyard.
25 Q. Is this the circle -- can you --
1 A. So this is the house we were in, Sejdi Batusha's house. These
2 other houses also belonged to Sejdi Batusha, but this one, that's where
3 the men spent the night.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. And on the 26th, when we woke up we were here in the courtyard.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Please pause between question and answer.
7 Thank you.
8 MS. NILSEN:
9 Q. Can you please also, Mr. Ramadani, point out the Court the area
10 of the woods that you were hiding before you went to this Sejdi Batusha's
11 house and spent the night, just a cross.
12 A. The woods should be somewhere here.
13 Q. In the corner --
14 A. And here is --
15 Q. -- to the left.
16 A. -- the little creek. You cannot see it on the photograph. It's
17 a little bit further, but it's here in this direction where we stayed in
18 the woods. There is creek there, quite a long one.
19 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
20 A. This is where we were on the 25th.
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Previous translation continued]... between
22 intervening, thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: There will need to be a general cross or a circle
24 around the area of the woods, I would suggest, Ms. Nilsen.
25 MS. NILSEN: Yes, I agree with you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Could you please, Mr. Ramadani, draw a larger circle around Sejdi
2 Batusha's house where you spent the night from the 25th to the 26th of
3 March, 1999
4 A. These are the houses.
5 Q. But not all the houses. The house that you spent the --
6 A. I apologise. Here. This is the house. It's by the road, and
7 here is a courtyard. This is the house. And this here is a courtyard,
8 and that's where we went on the -- on that morning at 7.00 in the
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. This is the road, the road that goes through the village and
12 upwards. These are --
13 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
14 A. -- Ahmet and Zaim's house. They are Batusha family too.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Ramadani, are you able to see on the
16 photograph the woods where you spent the night?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The wood is here. You cannot see
18 all of it, but it starts from here.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Can you put a cross in the location that you're
20 saying the woods --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here.
22 JUDGE PARKER: That's at the left-hand bottom of the photograph.
23 Is that what you're saying?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here on the left.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like a plain here.
2 MS. NILSEN:
3 Q. Thank you. And if you then -- you already pointed out to us
4 where the courtyard is. So if you could please just draw a line from the
5 courtyard to the cow-shed or the barn that you were brought to and a
6 circle around the place where you mean that the barn is at the picture.
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 Q. Can you please draw a circle around the barn that you were
9 brought to, Mr. Ramadani.
10 A. This is where they separated the men from the women, and here are
11 Qazim's -- the gate to Qazim's house, and this is the location. Shall I
12 mark it with a cross or encircle it?
13 Q. This is fine. Thank you.
14 MS. NILSEN: If we could have the other picture up, please, page
15 2. Sorry, I would like to tender this 65 ter number as an exhibit, Your
17 JUDGE PARKER: Before that is received, the area to which the men
18 were taken in the witness's description and which he says was then the
19 site of a barn or a cow-shed is very close to the centre of the
20 photograph but toward the lower edge of the photograph, and it is marked
21 with two or three overlapping red circles, and there is a line joining it
22 from the courtyard of Sejdi Batusha, that line mostly following the
23 roadway which passes through the village.
24 The photograph as marked will be received.
25 MS. NILSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00307, Your Honours.
2 MS. NILSEN: And then if I could please have the next picture,
3 page number 2 in the same 65 ter number shown at the screen. 00099,
4 page 2. Thank you.
5 Q. Here we just see the same area from another angle. I would just
6 like you to point out two things here, Mr. Ramadani.
7 A. Mm-hmm.
8 Q. The house of Sejdi Batusha where you spent the night, a ring
9 around that, and a cross where the barn was. Thank you.
10 A. Yes. My hand is trembling, I'm sorry. It's here. Sejdi
11 Batusha's house is this one. And now, just a moment, for the barn. It's
13 Q. Thank you so much. Could you please, Mr. Ramadani, confirm
14 whether there was a person confined to a wheelchair amongst the people
15 who had to go inside the barn, who were forced inside the barn, a
16 crippled man, and who was this?
17 A. One hundred and nine men were forced into this location. There
18 were two invalids, but the one with the wheelchair is Sait Hajdari.
19 Avdyl was carried inside the barn, while the one who was in the
20 wheelchair, he remained at the door.
21 After a short time, the policemen came - it didn't take them that
22 long - and they started to shoot inside the location. I saw a policeman
23 who was wearing a helmet, who was wearing uniform, and others joined in
24 in the shooting with automatic rifles, machine-guns, some from the
25 windows, some from the door, and they were shooting at us.
1 When they finished all the rounds, they came in and with their
2 pistols, whoever would lift his head up, they would shoot them with a
3 pistol. Later on, I didn't see how, but we were caught in fire.
4 Everything was on fire, the bodies, the walls. So when the location was
5 set on fire, my hand, this one got burned. My clothes were -- parts of
6 them were burning because I was covered by other bodies.
7 When I reached the door, Sait Hajdari was there in his
8 wheelchair. I just pushed him a little bit so I could make a leave-way
9 for me, and the room was filled with smoke and fire.
10 I managed to came -- come out. There were people outside here,
11 policemen and other people here on this road. I didn't have time to see
12 who that was. I just escaped here to the left and through our houses.
13 I left 103 men behind, four of them my family members, two of my
14 sons, that is, and my brother and his son.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Did you see any of the people who were
16 shooting at you in the barn? Did you see it when they were starting,
17 except for this one person that you told opened fire?
18 A. There were others, the one with the machine-gun. You see, I was
19 here in the corridor. The barn had two rooms and a corridor. I was in
20 the corridor. This came to the main door that led to the corridor, while
21 the others came from the windows, and that's how they were shooting
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. NILSEN: If I could please tender this photograph, also, as
25 an exhibit.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will P00308, Your Honours.
4 MS. NILSEN: And then if I could please have 65 ter 00100 up on
5 the screen, please. That's already an exhibit number, sorry, so it's
6 P00304, and it's the pictures that is shown from the previous witness of
7 what is left of the Batusha barn. I'm not going to show all the
8 pictures, but I would like to have page number 2 up at the screen. Thank
10 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you recognise this place?
11 A. Yes, very well.
12 Q. What do you see at the picture?
13 A. Next to this one here was the barn, next to this house which is
14 Bali Avdyli's house, and this small one here was like a summer kitchen or
15 something like that, while the barn was here. The place was blown up in
16 the air.
17 Q. If you would like the Court to see where you mean the barn was,
18 please make a cross; otherwise, we're not able to see where you're
19 pointing. Thank you.
20 A. Yes, yes. Here, up to here in this direction. This is where the
21 foundations were.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. That should be okay.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. This is the location that was blown up.
1 MS. NILSEN: Could we please have page number 3 up at the screen.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want to tender this?
3 MS. NILSEN: I would like to tender this. Sorry, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00309, Your Honours.
7 MS. NILSEN: And then page 3 from P00304.
8 Q. Mr. Ramadani, this is just the same area, but do you have
9 anything to say in addition to what you said in the previous picture?
10 A. This is where the incident occurred. They mined the place so
11 that they can erase all the traces. They blew up the barn, and these are
12 the leftovers of the concrete wall, and as a result of the explosion the
13 house nearby was also damaged. You can see the foundations and the
14 damaged walls. So this is the building -- the place where the building
15 once stood and that was later on blown up.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. NILSEN: As this is already tendered, Your Honours, I would
18 just go further to page number 4.
19 Q. Mr. Ramadani, the water you can see here, can you just describe
20 what you're seeing?
21 A. Yes, yes. This is where one of the room was. As I said, there
22 were two rooms and a corridor. This is one of the craters filled with
23 water, and this is where the corridor was. As I said, the building was
24 blown up. You have two craters filled with water. I guess when the
25 photographs were taken, the water was there. This is the crater from one
1 of the rooms, and this here is the corridor, and that there is the other
3 Q. "That there," is that where the water is now or where is -- if
4 you could please put a cross to the place where you mean that the
5 corridor was.
6 A. The corridor, yes, here. From here to here. And on this side is
7 the room, and on the other side is the other room.
8 Q. Sorry, you said "from here to here." Can you put another cross
9 where you mean the corridor ends?
10 A. Yes. Up to here. This is the corridor, and this is the door to
11 the corridor. So on both sides of the corridor are the rooms.
12 Q. Maybe when you are drawing now, maybe you could just, if you're
13 able to, draw where you mean the rooms connected to the corridor were.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We've been told by the witness one of them is the
15 crater that has water in it that we can see in the foreground, and he has
16 marked at the moment just with a marking the position of the second room.
17 I wonder, Mr. Ramadani, whether you would mind putting a number 3 where
18 you say the second room was on the other side of the corridor.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one here is also a room, and
22 this one here is a corridor.
23 MS. NILSEN:
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Can you please put a number 4 to the
25 point in the corridor that you mean that you were positioned during this
2 A. Here.
3 Q. This is where you were standing?
4 A. Yes. I was there at the corner.
5 Q. Thank you. And where did you escape? Did you escape from an
6 entrance, or can you just show where you escaped with a number 5.
7 A. All right. You mean how I left the corridor.
8 Q. Yes, exactly.
9 A. Just like this.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. I guess --
11 A. This was filled with bodies on all sides, so I crawled and walked
12 over the bodies to get out.
13 MS. NILSEN: I would like to tender this as an exhibit, Your
15 JUDGE PARKER: The last marking showing the doorway which the
16 witness took to leave the corridor is marked by a line from the number 4
17 to the wall on the -- as one looks at the photograph, on the left-hand
18 side, and there is a marking there meant to illustrate the doorway, and
19 it is through that doorway the witness says that he left the corridor.
20 With that explanation in the transcript, this marked photograph
21 will be received.
22 MS. NILSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00310, Your Honours.
24 MS. NILSEN: If we then could go directly to 65 ter 00101. Thank
25 you. If we can have both of the pictures at the same time. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The wheelchair.
2 MS. NILSEN:
3 Q. Do you recognise this wheelchair, Mr. Ramadani? It sounds like
4 you do.
5 A. This is Sait Hajdari's wheelchair.
6 Q. Thank you. And do you recognise the woman next to the
8 A. Yes. It's his wife, his wheelchair. It's Sait Hajdari's wife,
9 even though I don't know her very well. I know it's her, but I recognise
10 the wheelchair better because I had to push it away, away from the door.
11 Sait was on his wheelchair, and I had to push him away to free the
12 passage for myself. He was dead and burning at that time.
13 MS. NILSEN: If I could also have this picture, this exhibit --
14 tender as an exhibit, Your Honours. Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00311, Your Honours.
17 MS. NILSEN:
18 Q. I have some few questions left for you, Mr. Ramadani. When you
19 started your escape from the burning barn, did you see anyone alive
20 before you escaped, inside the barn?
21 A. Yes, I do, two or three boys. They were alive. They were
22 asking, What should we do? And I told them, Whoever can should leave
23 now. They -- some of them left, some towards the direction of that creek
24 that can be seen on the photograph, and in fact they were executed there
25 at the creek. There were two of them of 17 years' age.
1 Once -- we left on the left-hand side, alongside the houses. I
2 can show it on the photograph if need be. I saw these youngsters once
3 the rest were dying at that stage. A hundred and three were left behind.
4 Q. Did anyone escape together with you, Mr. Ramadani, or did you
5 escape alone?
6 A. There were two of us -- three. There was me, Agim Asllani, and
7 Bajram Zylfiu. There were three of us. We left passing alongside the
8 house, whilst the others, Petrit, Qamil, and the others went down towards
9 the meadow. These were the two that survives, whilst the others two
10 youths were the ones who were killed in the vicinity of the creek. They
11 were asked to put -- they were asked to put their hands above their heads
12 and were killed with no further ado. We were able to retrieve their
13 bodies only after the war.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you remember making a list of the names that you
15 meant were deceased, that lost their lives inside the barn? Do you
16 remember that you have provided this for the Prosecution?
17 A. Yes. Yes. I have the list on me if you want it.
18 Q. Do you remember --
19 A. And it's the same list.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when you made this list?
21 A. Immediately afterwards, before going to Albania, because I stayed
22 roaming around the Krusha area for about five weeks. In fact, I spent
23 about ten days roaming around mountains and creeks and so on and so
24 forth. That is when I compiled that list. So I had it ready to produce
25 to the investigators when they showed up.
1 Q. And do you remember approximately when you handed it over to the
3 A. I can't recall, no.
4 Q. Was it before or after you left Albania? Do you remember?
5 A. Before leaving for Albania
6 for Albania
7 re-did that list in Albania
8 time. I gave it to the investigators when they came to meet me.
9 However, I don't know whether they brought this list here and tendered it
10 here or whether they kept it for themselves, but I do have another list
11 here on me.
12 Q. [Overlapping speakers] We also have the list here. I just wanted
13 you to tell the Court approximately --
14 A. Okay. Fine.
15 Q. Just like you to tell --
16 A. I have dated it. I'm sorry.
17 Q. Thank you. But I would just like you to tell approximately when
18 you mean that you handed it over. Was it before or after you left
20 A. Upon returning from Albania
21 didn't have contact with anybody else. It was impossible. It was a war,
22 wartime. There were lots of policemen roaming around. It's a very long
23 story. It's a very long story to be told, including where I stayed,
24 which road I took, how I was in hiding, and so on and so forth.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. I gave them the list upon returning from Albania. Even my
2 statements were given after returning from Albania, not during the war,
3 because during that time I was roaming barefoot around the mountains.
4 All -- because all the clothes that I had on were burned at the -- at
5 that crime site.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. NILSEN: If I could please have 65 ter 02357 put on the
8 screen. Thank you. It is a 4-page document, Your Honours, so it will be
9 two pages at the same time. Yeah, well, this is the translated version
10 of the English version.
11 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Ramadani that -- is this the list? Do you
12 recall this list?
13 A. Yes. Shehu, Shehu, Shehu. There should be 39 Shehus. Maybe not
14 39, because 9 of them were the ones who were burned because they refused
15 to leave their house, five brothers.
16 Q. If we could go directly to -- or before we go to page 2, these
17 are the names; you recognise them --
18 A. Yes, I do, yes, very well.
19 Q. And go directly to page 2, please.
20 A. Yes, please.
21 Q. And this is number 22 to 65 -- 64, sorry. These are also -- when
22 you have a brief look at them, these are also the names that you
24 A. Yes, I do, yes. These are the names, including my children,
25 Bajram, Afrim, Murat, Selajdin. These are my two children and Ramadani,
1 all the Ramadanis.
2 Q. Which number, Mr. Ramadani, are these deceased people that you
3 mention now, your family? Which number on the list?
4 A. 61. Murat is 58, Selajdin is 59, Bajrami is at 61, 14 years of
5 age, 15. 15.
6 Q. Thank you. If we could turn directly to page 3. On this page,
7 Mr. Ramadani, there is a handwritten name as -- visible as number 103.
8 Is this your handwriting?
9 A. Yes, it is, because I had omitted one name which I've added in my
10 own handwriting. This is a young boy. Yes. It is my handwriting, my
11 own. The only thing missing over there is his age because I wasn't aware
12 of what -- how old he was, but yes.
13 Q. And was this name provided after you had given the list away to
14 the investigators? When -- do you remember when you put this handwritten
15 name on, approximately?
16 A. If I remember correctly, I did it at that time. This name ought
17 to be in the very same list, but I can't be a hundred per cent certain.
18 Q. That's fine. If we then could go directly to page 4, the last
19 page on this document.
20 A. These are the names of those who survived. These were some of
21 them who did not leave their own houses but who were burned inside their
22 own houses. These are the main ones, Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Ranko,
23 Nikolic Momcilo, Sava
24 Q. There is also a number 9 there, which also is written --
25 handwritten name.
1 A. Yes, Isnija. Isnija Rashkaj.
2 Q. And this is your handwriting as well?
3 A. I forgot it. Yes, it is my own handwriting, because we were not
4 able to find him. We found him later. We did not know whether he had
5 been killed or burned or so on. We were only able to find his remains.
6 He had been burned alongside the others, but some of his remains we were
7 able to find. They were all people who burned to death.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. NILSEN: I would like to tender this list, Your Honours, as
10 an exhibit.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Have you discussed the names 1 to 8 who were in
12 the third group on the page?
13 MS. NILSEN: He mentioned this group, Your Honours, but I can, of
14 course, ask him once again.
15 Q. The last eight names, Mr. Ramadani, could you please describe to
16 the Court what these names area since they are in a separate group?
17 A. These are the names of the policemen. These were policemen who
18 were in uniform. They had been in uniform and were well armed since
19 1993 -- or 1998, forgive me. All the Serbs of Kosova were uniformed like
20 that, but Nikolic Dimitrije had had a coffee shop since 1999, which was
21 later used as a police station. Police -- policemen were stationed
22 there. He ran this coffee shop with his own two sons. They were all in
23 police uniform.
24 Q. Did you recognise these people during the events of the 25th and
25 26th at any stage? Were they people that you observed?
1 A. Very well. I saw them very well, yes.
2 Q. Where did you see them?
3 A. Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Ranko, Nikolic Momcilo, they were all
4 there. They were somewhere nearby. They did not join inside. They did
5 not come to where the main concentration of the people were, but they
6 stayed at a distance, all these three. There were others who I had -- I
7 have noted down. These were the main ones, though. Nikolic Ranko was, I
8 think, the main one of them. Dimitrije was the one who had the coffee
9 shop. Nikolic Ranko, Nikolic Momcilo were regular policemen. Sava,
10 again, a uniformed policemen with the regular police. Slatko Djordjevic,
11 Petkovic Ranko, Tasic Sveta, Cvetkovic Djordje, they were all regular
12 police officers.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. I just wonder where were you positioned
14 when you were observing these men? Did you see them before you went into
15 the barn or after you escaped, maybe even in the yard?
16 A. I saw them before being led into that cow-shed, but I saw them
17 because they were moving just around, just in front of that cow-shed, and
18 we could easily see them.
19 Q. Did you know these people from before?
20 A. Yes. They were my neighbours; very well.
21 Q. What did they wear? Did they wear uniforms, or were they in
22 civilian clothes? Can you describe that?
23 A. They were in uniform, all of them. There were others who were in
24 civilian clothing who had red and blue armbands. They swapped them,
25 those armbands. That wasn't important. I can -- I can -- this is the
1 names that I've put on the list, and I'm able to show you where their
2 houses were.
3 JUDGE PARKER: You tendered the 4-page list; is that correct? It
4 will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00312, Your Honours.
6 MS. NILSEN: Thank you.
7 Q. If I can also ask you, Mr. Ramadani, do you recall if you saw any
8 outside the barn when you were escaping from the burning cow-shed or the
9 burning barn? Did you see any of these people that you were mentioning,
10 that you recognised?
11 A. No. I wasn't able to do that because I was at a very long
12 distance from them. I was in the woods, and so I wasn't able to discern
13 from that distance who it was. I was only able to see people but not be
14 able to tell who it was. They were the ones who took part. They did the
15 shooting from the door, from the windows.
16 Q. These neighbours that you were talking about that you
17 recognised -- that you recognised, were they belonging to the police, or
18 what unit did they belong to and -- as to your knowledge?
19 A. They were members of the regular police.
20 Q. Were they reservists?
21 A. No, the regular police. There were some youths who were members
22 of the reserve forces, but these were the regular police. There were
23 others who were members of the regular police, but these were the main
24 ones, the ones who called the shots.
25 So whenever something were to happen at Krusha e Vogel, they
1 would bring some policemen to Krusha e Vogel, and whilst these ones would
2 be taken from Krusha e Vogel and sent somewhere else on duty. I don't
3 know where. But during those days on the 25th and 26th, they remained at
4 Krusha e Vogel.
5 Q. How are you able to say that they were part of the police,
6 Mr. Ramadani? How could you be so sure about that? What makes you
7 certain of that?
8 A. I'm certain not only because I saw them, but I was in contact
9 with them. They have always been in police uniform. The Pinzgauer came
10 to collect them, sometimes brought them back in the evening, sometimes it
11 didn't, but they -- they were all -- always travelled in Pinzgauers or in
12 APCs, in police APCs.
13 Q. And could you please just describe the uniforms that you used
14 to -- to see them in?
15 A. Blue. Camouflage uniform, blue.
16 Q. Did they always wear the same uniforms, or did they sometimes
17 wear other colours, or can you say anything about that?
18 A. They always wore the same police uniform.
19 JUDGE PARKER: We have reached the point that we can't go any
20 longer because the tape length, Ms. Nilsen, so we must now adjourn to
21 enable the tapes to be rewound, and that is half an hour, and we will
22 resume, then, at 25 minutes past 4.00.
23 Now, we hope to be able to complete the evidence of this witness
24 today, so I trust your examination is near an end.
25 MS. NILSEN: I only have five or ten minutes left, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It's the time that's needed for cross-examination
2 that must be considered.
3 We will now adjourn and resume at 25 past 4.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.28 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Nilsen.
7 MS. NILSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I have a few questions of
8 the witness.
9 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you talked about --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MS. NILSEN:
12 Q. You talked about the group of policemen, of local policemen. Did
13 you know who was in charge of these local policemen, the group, your
14 neighbours, your Serb neighbours?
15 A. I don't know who their commander was. They should know
16 themselves. I don't know. At that stage, we were not aware who was
17 their leader, but I simply know of the group around Dimitrije who had
18 that coffee shop, and we know that the orders came from above to these
19 policemen, and their command was headquartered in Prizren, not at Krusha
20 e Vogel. So their high command was not there.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you have any knowledge to the commanders or the
22 management who was the head of the local service that you talked about?
23 A. I don't know. I don't know who the commander was.
24 Q. Thank you. For the record, Mr. Ramadani, I would like you to
25 explain to the Court what you were doing for a living prior March 1999.
1 A. A farmer.
2 Q. And are you still working as a farmer, Mr. Ramadani?
3 A. Yes, I still do. Before March, even though we worked as farmers,
4 we -- we couldn't even carry out that vocation because we couldn't even
5 get the fuel. Police would not give us the necessary fuel to run our
7 Q. Thank you. I just have to ask you over again about the question
8 regarding the -- the commander of the policemen. You said that they were
9 headquartered in -- and then I think we missed the place where you talked
11 A. As I said it earlier, Dimitrije Nikolic and his two sons had
12 opened a coffee shop, and police used to come in Pinzgauers to that
13 coffee shop and -- whilst they were mistreating people at Krusha e Vogel.
14 The others who were at Krusha e Vogel were transported or taken away from
15 Krusha e Vogel elsewhere, and I think that Dimitrije played the role of
16 lead officer in that area. I think the orders came from elsewhere, but
17 he had his own coffee shop, and I think that the other policemen acted on
18 his orders. They went out on patrol. They mistreated children on their
19 way to school. They pointed the barrels of their guns to -- at the
20 children. They kept asking the children, What on earth are you after?
21 Are you requesting the presence of NATO and America here? And they kept
22 saying that -- saying high and low that they were going to kill every
23 single Albanian. There came a point when children were unable to go to
24 school following the regular route, and they had to go in a roundabout
25 manner through creeks and mountains and so on. This coffee shop was in
1 the very centre of the village, located in the very centre of the
2 village, that is.
3 Q. Thank you, but just for the record, I think that the registrar
4 missed it, but you said that the headquarter to these policemen in your
5 village, that they had management, a commander higher up in another
6 place, in another city. Could you just repeat that, please?
7 A. They came from Prizren. They came from Prizren on a Pinzgauer.
8 They brought them on a Pinzgauer, and they took the other lot. They
9 stayed there, eating, drinking, day and night. That place was full day
10 and night. Some came down there. The other lot were taken away and
11 deployed elsewhere. I don't know where.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. My last question is -- to you is also
13 for the record. Can you please tell me your full name and pronounce it.
14 We're a little bit uncertain if it's Lufti or Lutfi. Thank you.
15 A. Lutfi Ramadani, L-u-t-f-i.
16 Q. Thank you so much.
17 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Nilsen.
20 Mr. Djordjevic, do you have cross-examination?
21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but to clarify
22 some things that we heard today, I will be asking some questions in my
23 cross-examination today to the witness that we have in front of us here
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani. My name is
2 Dragoljub Djordjevic. I'm an attorney-at-law, and I defend the accused
3 in this case, Vlastimir Djordjevic.
4 Mr. Ramadani, in your statement that was tendered into evidence
5 under 92 ter by the Prosecution, and it was admitted in the Milutinovic
6 case, you said quite a few things, and I will have to ask you some
7 questions about them to get to the bottom of some things and to establish
9 First of all, as regards what you said that you had seen in the
10 early morning on the 25th of March, 1999, you said that you saw Serb
11 forces arriving, that you could hear sounds of various machinery, tanks,
12 armoured vehicles, and so on. That's what you say in your statement.
13 And then the people from the village, primarily those of Albanian ethnic
14 background, went into the woods.
15 Now, I will not ask for the aerial picture to be shown again
16 because we all remember -- remember where you said the woods were, and
17 you marked all the locations that are important and relevant for this
18 case, but I will first ask you this question: What was the time when you
19 headed into the woods, and what was specifically the reason that prompted
20 you to go into the woods?
21 A. The reason why we went to the woods at around 4.00 in the morning
22 - I didn't see my watch - was because we saw the tanks, the APCs, and
23 anti-aircraft artillery along the asphalt road Prizren-Gjakove. At
24 around 5.00, the Serbs from the village communicated with the army and
25 the police, and fire was opened from the lower part. They started to go
1 into the Albanian houses, the policemen, and to set the Albanian houses
2 on fire, those that were along the main road. So when we saw this, we
3 become scared. We left our houses and took to the mountains, to the
4 woods near the creek.
5 On the 25th of March, they were shelling from below, but none of
6 the shells hit the location where the population was.
7 We left our houses because of fear. That's why almost the entire
8 population, about 400 or 500 villagers, got together and went to the
10 Q. Well, you mentioned the figure, 400 to 500 villagers. Even if
11 it's only 400, it's a fairly large number. How did you get organised?
12 How were you able to head in a specific direction in such a short time?
13 Was there some kind of a previous agreement, a contingency agreement in
14 case something like this happens? Did you expect something of the sort
15 to happen?
16 A. There was no organisation per se. As I said, the main road,
17 Gjakove-Prizren, was full of tanks and APCs, full of policemen and
18 military personnel.
19 When the policemen went to the houses, they set them on fire; and
20 because of fear, the population left their houses, and we got together,
21 all of us, there in the woods near the creek. This was not an
22 organisation. We all left because of fear. It's not that we organised
24 Q. My next question is about the place where you set off. That's
25 your village, Mala Krusa. You headed into the woods towards the creek,
1 which is fairly long, and the vineyards. How far is it from the village?
2 Can you tell us?
3 A. I think I marked it on the map. It's not very far. It doesn't
4 even have a name. It's just a creek. It's near the village in the
5 woods. It's not far. I did not measure the distance, so I don't know
6 how far that would be exactly.
7 Q. I will not insist on you telling us how far that was since you
8 told us that it was not far.
9 My next question is this: Did you not feel safer in your homes
10 than in this area, which is completely open and unsheltered, and there
11 was such a huge mass of people there?
12 A. We didn't feel safer in our homes because they entered the houses
13 immediately. Those who didn't leave the houses, those nine persons that
14 I mentioned, were burnt in their houses, and that's why we left, because
15 we could well observe what was going on and what the police was doing in
16 the village. We left because of fear, not because of our own free will.
17 Q. My next question is this: Did somebody -- I'm not sure whether I
18 understood the interpreter correctly. He said: "We didn't leave out of
19 fear. We left of our own free will."
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. There was a correction. That's why I'm not asking you this
22 question. I withdraw the question.
23 Now, did anyone tell you that you should or that you had to go
24 into the woods?
25 A. No. We left because of fear. Nobody told us to go to the woods.
1 When they began to open fire, there was -- it was no longer possible for
2 us to remain in our homes. We had to leave our houses and seek shelter.
3 We followed each other to the woods, the population.
4 Q. Thank you. You've already told us all this. Now, in order to
5 save your time and because of judicial economy, as it is called, could
6 you please answer my questions directly and not repeat what you've
7 already said.
8 Now, my next question is: Is it correct that none of the Serbs
9 told you, Go into the woods, you have to go into the woods?
10 A. We didn't speak with the Serbs at that moment. They were busy
11 setting the houses on fire. They were shelling. They were opening fire.
12 How could we possibly talk to them? We left because of fear, not for
14 Q. I fully understand you. Thank you for your answer.
15 My next question, Mr. Lutfi, is this: You got so scared. What
16 was the reason, then, that as early as that night you went back and
17 spent -- spent the night in your neighbour's home - you mentioned his
18 name, but I'm not going to mention it - if your fear was really real and
19 had foundations?
20 A. We returned to this neighbour's house because it was very cold.
21 I already mentioned it. There were children, elderly, women, men there.
22 It was very cold, and because of the cold we went to Sejdi Batusha's
23 house. It's in the peripheral part of the village. It's in the
24 outskirts, not inside the village, and we went the night there. We went
25 there because it was cold, and mostly for the children; it was cold.
1 Q. Did you do that of your own free will? I'm talking about your
2 return back to the village, to the house of your neighbour.
3 A. We had to. It wasn't our free will. It was very cold, and we
4 needed a roof on our heads. It was cold. We left our houses early in
5 the morning. Most of the people were unable to get any warm clothes with
6 them or food with them. We were completely unprepared when we left our
7 houses. That's why we didn't have warm clothes with us, and in that cold
8 temperature we could barely stay outside.
9 Q. Mr. Lutfi, you will agree with me, then, that the Serb police did
10 not go into the woods with its forces and forced you out of the woods
11 into your neighbour's yard where you spent the night?
12 A. The police were standing on the side. They didn't came to the
13 location in the woods where we were near the creek. The army, they were
14 further down along the main road, and the police was not where the
15 population was. I am speaking about the time when we were in the woods.
16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, while you were in the woods, did anyone open fire
17 on you, on the people who had fled and who were gathered there? Were
18 they firing at you?
19 A. Those that opened fire were down there. The projectiles would go
20 to the woods, to the hills. It would pass us over, and they would fall
21 in the vineyard.
22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, please tell us, how far is this hill from the
23 location where the people who had fled gathered? It was above you.
24 A. I'm not able to tell you exactly. Here was the creek, and the
25 vineyards were a little bit above us, and the projectiles would fall
1 there in the vineyards. I would say about 100 metres, 200 metres was the
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, can you tell me, do you know the
4 following persons whose names I will now tell you, and if you can tell
5 me, please, who these persons are: Brahim Batusha, Arbin Hajdari, Avni
6 Hajdari, Jeton Hajdari, Mehmet Shehu.
7 A. Yes. These people are from my village. Jeton Hajdari and
8 Mehmet, their houses are a little bit further, below the -- on the other
9 side of the asphalt road, and they survived the massacre.
10 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you know that these persons were members of the
11 Kosovo Liberation Army?
12 A. I am not aware of any KLA members being present there, but
13 everything is possible. I have not even heard about KLA presence there.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you please answer me: From the village, and by
15 that I mean the part of the village where you lived, where the houses
16 are, where you spent the night, and I'm also referring to the place where
17 this massacre happened, so from those locations, were you able to see the
18 length of the asphalt road that links Prizren and Djakovica which passes
19 through your village, to one side of it?
20 A. You mean from my house? You can see everything from my house,
21 the main road, Prizren-Gjakove included. From the area where we were, at
22 Sejdi Batusha's house, you cannot see it very well. You have to go to
23 the top floors of the house if you want to see the main road clearly,
24 while you can see the road very well from my house.
25 Q. You told us that you could see that road from your house very
1 well. The whole road or just parts thereof? Let us be very specific
2 about it.
3 A. The road from our village towards Xerxe, the whole main road
4 Prizren-Gjakove, you can see it very well. So the road Krusha e Vogel,
5 Krusha e Madhe, Xerxe, and Celine.
6 Q. Mr. Ramadani, could you please tell me, from the house where you
7 sought shelter on that night, the 25th of March, to your house you told
8 us the distance, the approximate distance in your testimony so far. I
9 will not be asking you this. It's very close, but is there an elevation
10 between your house and the road linking Prizren and Djakovica, a hill?
11 A. There isn't any hill in between. My house is on an elevation,
12 and you can see the main road which is down there very well, but there is
13 no hill in between.
14 Q. And from the yard of the house where you sought shelter in the
15 evening of the 25th, the Batusha house where you sought shelter for the
17 A. There is no hill between the road and that house either, but
18 there are houses, other houses in between, and that's why you cannot see
19 the main house clearly. You have to go to the top floors to see it.
20 There are houses in between, up to the main road, and that's why you
21 cannot see it clearly from there.
22 Q. Is it correct that the military did not enter the village at all?
23 A. I didn't see soldiers in the village. I only saw soldiers around
24 the village. The army was around the village by -- along the main road
25 and on the hills, while the police were inside the village.
1 Q. Mr. Lutfi, you told us -- you described for us the fact that some
2 local police were in the village, maybe reserve police officers who were
3 recruited into the police force in your village. You mentioned their
4 names. I will not be asking you any other questions about them, but you
5 mentioned that some people had arrived, people who worked in the police
6 in Prizren. Did you mention those people because you know them by sight
7 or in any other way, or did you merely say that those people came from
8 Prizren, or were those police officers from Prizren?
9 A. They were policemen who came from Prizren on a Pinzgauer, police
10 officers. They were not locals. They were police officers. They were
11 brought on Pinzgauers. They were left behind. The other lot were put
12 into the Pinzgauers and deployed elsewhere. I have no idea where. The
13 locals, that is, from Krusha e Vogel.
14 Q. What about those who would come from Prizren? Did you know them,
15 perhaps? Had you seen them in Prizren, or did you not know them at all?
16 A. No, no. I didn't know them. They were policemen. I did not
17 know them personally, no.
18 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in several of your statements and the several
19 testimonies that you gave in the Milosevic case and the Milutinovic et
20 al. case, you referred to something that you called paramilitary
21 formations. Can you explain to us what it is that you meant when you
22 said paramilitary formations, of the police, that is? As far as I
23 understood you, that is; of course, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
24 A. I don't think I have ever mentioned paramilitaries. I don't
25 think so. I've only talked about the police and the army.
1 Q. I'm going to find the reference by the end of this
2 cross-examination, but let us not waste any time now. Let us move on to
3 my next question.
4 Today, you said several times that Serb forces shelled your
5 village and the positions there. Did I understand you correctly that you
6 had said there was shelling, or did you misspeak?
7 A. Yes. They kept shooting from the main highway. They kept
8 shooting towards the houses. Yes, there was shooting. I don't know
9 whether that was shelling or what, but there was shooting, on the part of
10 the police.
11 Q. I would kindly ask to have the witness's statement of the 5th of
12 October, 2001, put on the monitor. It was given to investigator Pete
13 Stewart. D001-4382. That's the English version, and in the Albanian
14 language - could we please have both on the screens at the same time -
16 It is page 2 -- I beg your pardon. Page 3, actually. We are
17 looking at the paragraphs that are in the lower third of that page. I'm
18 saying that because I'm now going to read out from part of the witness's
19 statement, the statement of the witness who is being heard today. I'm
20 going to ask him to explain the differences between the statement that he
21 gave then and what he said today.
22 The witness says as follows in that statement:
23 "I saw 40 to 50 vehicles parked on the road."
24 And then he says:
25 "The vehicles that I saw were a mixture of APCs and Pragas. They
1 were not camouflage."
2 Next paragraph:
3 "The APCs were normal blue colour MUP, and the Pragas were the
4 normal VJ green.
5 "The Pragas were armed with machine-guns and cannons. With
6 Pragas, you can have different kind of weapons. The Pragas were manned
7 by members of the Army of Yugoslavia.
8 "I don't know who was manning the APCs, but I presume it was the
10 This is a reference to the police.
11 "I have been asked if I'm aware of any T55 tanks being stationed
12 in the area of Krusha e Vogel at this time."
13 The witness's answer is: "No."
14 "I have been asked if I saw any rockets on any of these
16 The answer was: "No."
17 "They asked me whether any one of these weapons had been used in
18 the attack at Mala Krusa."
19 And the witness says:
20 "Yes. That happened on the 20th of March, 1999, at 4.30 in the
21 morning, and it is bullets that hit the house walls that afflicted the
22 only injury. Artillery was not used in this attack."
23 Mr. Lutfi, I'm putting this to you so that you would tell us
24 first and foremost why you stated something different today, and in this
25 statement of the 5th of October, 2001, you said this, what I put to you
1 just now.
2 That would be my first question. However, we are going to be
3 dealing with another part of your statement, as well, may I say that
4 straightaway, what you said in the Milosevic trial. But could you please
5 first respond to this.
6 A. The Pragas in their -- had the -- exactly the same colour they
7 used to have before. They could have changed them. Whether there was
8 any shelling from the Pragas or from rockets and so on, I don't think so.
9 I have not seen any rockets shooting. They shot with cannons -- they
10 were equipped with cannons, and they shot towards the houses. I don't
11 know what they shot from. I don't know whether they used the cannons or
12 whether they used automatic rifles or whether they used machine-guns,
13 because they did have everything. They had cannons. They had automatic
14 weapons, rifles, and machine-guns too.
15 Q. So, Mr. Ramadani, was there shelling or was there not any
16 shelling? In the statement you say there was no shelling, and you say
17 that the only damage came from bullets. So was there any shelling or was
18 there not any shelling, and why did you say then that there was no
19 shelling, and why are you saying today that there was shelling? It's a
20 brief question.
21 A. Yes, there was shooting towards the walls of the houses, but I
22 don't think heavy artillery was used. It was light weaponry. I don't
23 think heavy artillery was used. That's what is written over there, and
24 that's the reality.
25 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you said several times today that the -- that the
1 village had been shelled, and we all know what that means. That's why
2 I'm asking you yet again why you said that today, if you will or if you
3 wish to answer this question. Otherwise, I'm going to take your
4 testimony the way you're giving it.
5 A. I'm saying today exactly what I said at that time, and I
6 clarified by saying that there was shooting towards the walls of the
7 houses. There was shooting, but it was not shooting that came from heavy
8 weaponry, from artillery.
9 Q. So we can agree that there wasn't any shelling?
10 A. There was shelling, but it was not artillery shelling.
11 Q. I am satisfied with your answer, so I'm not going to put what it
12 was that you stated in the Milutinovic case and what you stated in the
13 Milosevic case.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] So I would kindly ask the Trial
15 Chamber to have this part of the statement admitted into evidence. I am
16 not going to deal with what the witness had stated in the Milosevic case
17 and the Milutinovic case in relation to the shelling of the village.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript of the witness, do you have
20 particular page numbers?
21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask
22 to have page 3 admitted, from paragraph 6 up until the end, on page 3,
23 that is. So that would include all of page 4 too.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Are we talking about transcript in the trial?
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no. No. I'm talking
1 about the witness statement. I gave you the D number. It's not going to
2 be a problem for me to repeat this reference, Your Honour. This is a
3 statement that was given to the investigators on the 5th of October,
4 2001. In English, it is D001-4382; and in Albanian, it is D001-4392.
5 Just a moment, please. The witness statement -- actually, as
6 I've already said, it is page 3 of the witness statement, and I'll tell
7 you straightaway from what paragraph onwards.
8 JUDGE PARKER: My request for page numbers is because I thought
9 you were dealing with --
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Three, 3, page 3. Page 3 from
11 paragraph 6 up until the end of the witness's statement. That means that
12 page 4 should be included, too, so that it wouldn't seem that this
13 portion was being taken out of context. So I'm speaking of the English
14 version, from paragraph 6 on page 3 up until the end of his statement.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, that I asked for page numbers when
16 I wrongly thought you were dealing with the transcript of the Milosevic
17 and Milutinovic cases. I now understand what you're intending, and I
18 think it will probably be easier simply to receive the past statement.
19 Now, the statement that is on our screens, is that the one that
20 you are tendering, the statement of the 5th of October, 2001?
21 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, yes. And I
22 will agree.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE PARKER: We will receive that statement of the 5th of
25 October, 2001, Mr. Djordjevic.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00029, Your Honours.
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we also have
3 transcripts from the Milutinovic case and the Milosevic case. I'm not
4 going to deal with them because I'm satisfied with the answer that I got
5 from the witness after I showed him his witness statement. So we're not
6 going to spend any more time on this. I would like to move on.
7 Q. Mr. Ramadani, first of all, I would like to ask to show on the
8 screens part of the witness's statement in the Milutinovic case.
9 Actually, it is page 4285, and the Defence Exhibit is -- just a moment,
10 please. I just need assistance. P00306. It is page 3. Right.
11 It has to do with uniforms, Mr. Ramadani. We will have to dwell
12 on that a bit longer because of what you stated to my learned friend who
13 conducted your direct examination.
14 In the Milutinovic case, you stated that the police wore black
15 uniforms. Today, you say that the police wore blue uniforms.
16 In certain statements, like the one that was already admitted
17 into evidence, you say that this same police wore camouflage blue
18 uniforms. So I would like to ask you - this is really important to
19 ask -- well, we know what these people did, and we know what you feel,
20 that it's -- that it's not important what these people wore but what they
21 did, and I agree with that. But could you please tell us, why are you
22 saying in Milutinovic black uniforms why? Do you say blue uniforms
23 today? Why do you say on the 5th of October in this statement that I put
24 to you this -- about the artillery, you're saying blue again, but this
25 time blue camouflage uniforms? Could you please explain that to the
1 Trial Chamber and to all of this -- to all of us so that we would know
2 what this is all about?
3 A. I think there's been some misunderstanding. This one which I'm
4 pointing to is black, and the blue that I mentioned is slightly -- a
5 slightly lighter shade than this one, and you're saying not black and
6 neither blue. I'm saying it's neither too black, nor too blue. I don't
7 know whether you're able to understand me or not. It is not light blue;
8 it's dark blue, navy blue. That is the uniforms they used to wear.
9 Q. What you're saying today, dark blue. Today you're saying dark
10 blue, and --
11 A. And that's exactly what's written on the statement, blue. That's
12 what the statement says. However, I'm not able to read this now because
13 the letters are too small, but that's what the statement says. You can
14 read it.
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Again, I would kindly ask to
16 have that same page returned on our screens from the witness's statement
17 of October 5th, in Albanian, please, and in English?
18 JUDGE PARKER: You want Exhibit D29.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's right, Your Honour.
20 Q. You're saying, and that's page 3 -- I'm looking at the B/C/S
21 version now. I'm going to check the English now. English, again, is
22 paragraph 3 on page 3.
23 "For example, Nebojsa Nikolic was a MUP reservist, and he was
24 wearing a green camouflage uniform."
25 You will admit that that is quite different from dark blue. So
1 that's what you're saying about Nebojsa Nikolic, green camouflage
2 uniform. Also, you say - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - here it is, the fifth
3 paragraph, that they wore green camouflage uniforms as they were by the
4 asphalt road, and you think that it's the VJ, and here we see that a
5 member of the MUP is wearing green camouflage.
6 Could you explain this to us a bit so that we would know who the
7 members of these detachments are, who attacked the village, and who did
8 what you said they did.
9 A. The ones who attacked the village were policemen. Nebojsa
10 Nikolic was a young man, whilst the uniforms were of various colours.
11 There were uniforms that were green, there were others that were blue,
12 and they kept changing them. Sometimes they wore the blue, sometimes the
13 green ones. There were others in the village who wore no uniforms at
14 all, amongst the Serbs, that is, but they were -- they had their own
15 weapons. They were armed. There were some policemen, local policemen
16 from the local militia who had green uniforms. They'd change their
17 uniforms. One day they wore them; another day they took them off. Yes.
18 There were all kinds of uniforms. There were green. There were blue.
19 They kept changing them. I don't think they attached great importance to
20 that. Nebojsa eventually went to Pastrik, to Koshare, where he was
22 Q. My next question, it has to do with this particular reference
23 that I said that I would go back to in order not to waste time. It has
24 to do with when you mentioned paramilitary formations directly. You do
25 it in the Milutinovic transcript.
1 Just a moment, please.
2 A. I don't think I've mentioned the paramilitaries.
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] 0306 is the transcript number,
4 and page 40 is what we're looking at, lines 9 and 10. Could the usher
5 please have this portion of the transcript displayed, from Milutinovic,
6 that is, when the witness testified there, and when he refers to
7 paramilitary units.
8 Q. So please look at that page. It is zoomed in now, and I think
9 you'll be able to read it. It is lines 9 and 10 of page 40. You say
11 Now, was -- is this something that you mentioned by chance or by
12 mistake - because you said that you never said this - or is this perhaps,
13 Mr. Lutfi, something that you forgot and that you remembered now and that
14 you can explain to us now?
15 A. It is not true that I used the word "paramilitary." I only spoke
16 about police. I'm not aware of having used the word "paramilitary." I
17 referred to the police and the army. The army did not enter the village.
18 They stayed at a distance on the outskirts. The police did. I have not
19 seen any paramilitaries. I'm not sure there were any.
20 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to ask you about that any more, then.
21 Tell me, Suka Brdo, this hill, where is it in relation to your
22 house and your village?
23 A. There is no Kodra Shuka in this village. I think this is a great
25 Q. Did you ever mention this name?
1 A. Never. Never, because it doesn't exist. There is no Kodra Shuka
2 in the vicinity. I've never heard of one. It could be the Suka Brdo
3 hill, but there is no such thing called Kodra Shuka. It's mistake.
4 Q. Suka Brdo? I'm saying this because I'm reading this from the
5 Milutinovic transcript. It is page 4348. In e-court I don't know what
6 the number is, but I'm sure the usher will find it, after all. It is
7 lines 13 and 14. It says Suka, S-u-k-a. That's the name of the hill.
8 You say that there is no such hill, but it's here in your answer, you
10 So you say that you cannot see the asphalt road from this house
11 but that you can see Shuka Brdo or Suka Brdo or something along those
12 lines. So perhaps we should clarify this because these words are
13 ascribed to you, you see, so if this is incorrect, we would like to have
14 it corrected.
15 It is -- it is the part of your testimony that is the
16 cross-examination by my learned friend Mr. Visnjic in that trial.
17 A. There is no such hill. There is a hill called the Suka Brdo.
18 It's at a distance, and there is no road leading to it. There isn't any
19 other. There is no Shuka there, nowhere in that area that I'm aware of.
20 Q. Could you please tell us slowly what the exact name of the hill
21 is. So there is no such thing as Shuka Brdo or Suka Brdo; right?
22 A. Suka Brdo. That is at a fair distance.
23 Q. Suka Brdo, what is that?
24 A. Just an elevated piece of land.
25 Q. Did you mean when you said that from Suka Brdo - now I understand
1 what you mean - that from there you can see the asphalt road? Where is
2 it in relation to the village, and where is it in relation to the road,
3 so where? Where is it? You say it was far away. Is it south? North?
4 Just explain that to us, please.
5 A. Yes, I can. It's northwards like this, and I don't know what the
6 point is of this Suka Brdo. There never happened anything over there.
7 It never interested me. I don't think I ever mentioned it.
8 Q. I've just showed you the transcript where you mentioned this, but
9 it wasn't "Saka." It says "Suka Brdo" over here.
10 Could you please tell me where you were on the 13th of May and
11 where you were on the 2nd of June, 1999? So first the 13th of May and
12 then on the 2nd of June, 1999.
13 A. On the 13th of May, I was up in the mountains. I had escaped. I
14 just survived the massacre, whereas the others from the family, the
15 women, they were in Albania
16 whilst I was roaming around the mountains.
17 Q. Were you close to the village or far away from it? You were --
18 you mentioned mountains.
19 A. Beyond the Drin River
20 that's where I was. From -- we could -- we were on the other side. We
21 could see -- we could see the asphalt road and -- and the village. We
22 were, but we were at a distance.
23 Q. Could you tell me, do you remember the NATO air-strikes in Mala
24 Krusa on the 13th of May?
25 A. Yes, I remember it. I -- we saw the aeroplanes over flying. I
1 don't think there was any bombing in that area at all. We could see the
2 aircraft flying.
3 Q. Did you hear any explosions on the 13th of May?
4 A. I did not hear any explosions in that area. I don't think there
5 was any. All we could see is the aeroplanes flying. I don't think there
6 was any bombing in that area.
7 Q. Do you think that, or are you claiming that with full certainty?
8 A. I think I'm certain there weren't any.
9 Q. The 2nd of June, 1999, where were you then?
10 A. I was in Albania
11 Q. Did you hear that on that day your village was bombed by NATO, or
12 is it something that you don't know about?
13 A. No, I don't know about it. I was in Albania, and I could not see
14 or hear anything.
15 Q. Mr. Lutfi, let me now move on to the set of questions that will
16 have to do with the list of people who were set on fire in the barn, as
17 you described it. Do you know Mr. Mehmet Krasniqi, also known as Mehmet
18 Avdyli or Krasniqi? Do you know why Mr. Krasniqi changed his name?
19 A. He was traumatised at the time. He was burnt and probably not in
20 a state to remember or tell his name, and he could not even write it down
21 because his hands were burnt. I was also burnt on the right-hand side.
22 It's the same person, Mehmet Krasniqi, or Mehmet Avdyli. It's the same
23 person. He's my neighbor. He's from the village.
24 Q. Do you know that for a fact, that that's why he changed his last
25 name, or is it just an assumption on your part?
1 A. He was burnt, as I said. He was traumatised. He was not fully
2 conscious. He gave his statement when he arrived at Kukes in the
3 capacity of Mehmet Avdyli, but his name -- full name is Mehmet Krasniqi.
4 Q. Very well. Mr. Ramadani, you said today: "We made a list of
5 people who were burnt in this massacre, who were killed." Did I
6 understand you correctly when you say "we made the list..." or is it that
7 you yourself did it, or if you did it with somebody else, who assisted
8 you in reconstructing the whole event? Who were those people, if there
9 were any.
10 A. It's the same people we're talking about, regardless of whether I
11 compiled the list on my own or with the help of a neighbour or another
12 person. One hundred and three persons were killed and burned in the
13 barn. Nine persons who refused to leave their houses were burnt in their
14 houses. Krusha e Vogel has 800 inhabitants; 112 people were executed and
15 burnt. I was among these men. My sons were there too. I survived; they
16 didn't. I have all their names, surnames, dates of birth. I might be
17 mistaken for a year or two as regards their year of birth, and I have
18 pictures of them with me here, and I can show them to you if you wish.
19 Q. Mr. Ramadani, it's very difficult for me to ask you questions and
20 to try in any way, including this way, to traumatise you by making you
21 remember some things, but I would just like to ask you one question
22 regarding this list. I merely wanted to find out something that is
23 logical to me. Is it true that you made this list together with the
24 villagers from your village, because there were many people, 103, and
25 then you have to make an effort to recall all their names and dates of
1 birth. I don't have anything against that, but I would like to get a
2 logical explanation.
3 So did you make this list together with people from your village?
4 Were there several of you? How did you -- all of you make this list?
5 A. I was on my own. We were in Sejdi Batusha's house and near the
6 creek together with all these men that were killed. We were at the
7 location where we were forming columns of three. I knew all their names
8 maybe with the exception of a -- younger people, of some youths whose
9 dates of birth I didn't know, and then a neighbour helped me with dates
10 of birth. As for the names and last names, I knew all of them myself,
11 because they were from my village.
12 Q. Thank you very much for your answer, Mr. Ramadani. My next
13 question is: Did you get acquainted with the list that was provided to
14 this Tribunal through the OTP investigators by Mehmet Avdyli Krasniqi,
15 whom we mentioned? Do you know what list he made or had?
16 A. The list we are talking about is my list, the list that I
17 compiled. Nobody gave me the list. I might have given the list to
18 others, but nobody gave a list to me. There were people who were
19 disabled amongst those killed. I compiled the list myself.
20 Q. You explained that quite -- in some detail. I'm asking you this
21 because there are some discrepancies. The only thing that is the same is
22 the total number of persons who were killed. You both claim that 103
23 villagers were killed, but I looked at the lists, and I noticed some
24 discrepancies. This is why I'm asking you this.
25 Now I have to ask you yet another question. From that day when
1 you fled from the execution site at this -- from this barn in Batusha,
2 were any bodies of the victims who were killed there found ever? Their
3 mortal remains, were they found?
4 A. No. They were burnt. They were all ashes. The Serbs from the
5 village, they removed the ashes and threw them in the Drini River
6 When we returned from Albania
7 site were these two craters and nothing else, the concrete blocks
8 scattered in the meadows as a result the explosion, nothing else. I
9 didn't go to the Drini River
11 Q. Now I will ask you -- well, it's a problem now because I have the
12 daily transcript of the evidence of Mehmet Krasniqi. That's page 1009.
13 That's from Friday, the 13th of February, lines, 19, 20, and 21. If we
14 could please have that shown by the court deputy or the usher.
15 My assistant is trying to find this portion, but we can't get at
16 this part of the transcript in e-court, but if the Chamber will allow me
17 to put it to the witness --
18 JUDGE PARKER: Please do.
19 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] -- what Mr. Krasniqi said on
20 that occasion. Thank you.
21 Q. The witness says: "[In English] They are all dead, the remaining
22 persons on that list. Only 20 bodies were identified and buried in our
23 village. The remaining victims, we don't know where they are. We never
24 found their remains."
25 [Interpretation] Then at page 1065 of the daily transcript --
1 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on, perhaps you could just put to
2 the witness, does he know of anything of some 20 bodies being identified
3 and buried?
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely what
5 you've just said is the logical sequence. This is what I wanted to do.
6 So my question to the witness is this: First, I wanted to put both to
7 him and to the Trial Chamber -- or to explain to the witness why I'm
8 going to ask him that, and then I want to elicit from the witness whether
9 he knew anything about that, since I received an answer to a question
10 asked of Mr. Mehmet in cross-examination that some 20 bodies were
11 identified and buried, and now I want to ask him anything about that, and
12 then I intended to ask some more questions.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Those that were burned in
14 their houses, we found upon returning to the village after the war their
15 remains. Some -- it is said that some bodies have been identified, but
16 personally I don't believe it because we're talking about ashes here that
17 was brought to the morgue in Prishtina. The only material that these
18 victims could be identified from were these ashes. To this date, I don't
19 know anything about the remains or the ashes of my two sons. So that's
20 why I'm quite pessimistic.
21 This is -- these are the bodies that Mehmet Avdyli spoke about.
22 It is true that there are 20 graves in our village, the graves of these
23 20 victims. As for others, nothing has changed to this date. We don't
24 know anything about their remains.
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. It is quite obvious that you have no knowledge of that, so I will
2 not be asking you any more questions about this, but let me tell you once
3 again, I asked a direct question whether these were people who were
4 killed in the barn, in the same place where you claim the massacre
5 happened, and Mr. Mehmet said those were the people and that as for the
6 rest, their fate remains unknown to this day.
7 Mr. Lutfi --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Before you go on, Mr. Djordjevic, we need to have
9 that second break now if that's convenient.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Judge. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PARKER: And we will resume, then, at 20 minutes past.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 6.22 p.m.
14 MR. STAMP: Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry. Since we're waiting, can I just use the
17 opportunity to indicate that we have received indication from the victims
18 and witnesses unit that the next witness slated as K90 is very ill and
19 will not be available to testify on Wednesday. So we -- subject to the
20 Court, with leave of the Court, we ask that we call Nike Peraj before
21 him, to reverse the schedule with those two witnesses and call K90 on
22 Friday if he recovers, if the victim and witnesses unit indicates that we
23 can proceed, and, of course, subject to what my friend has to say about
24 it. I was going to mention this at the end of the proceedings, but I
25 arose because of the interrignum. Thank you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Is there a problem, Mr. Djordjevic, with that
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This kind of a change certainly
4 is a serious difficulty for us due to the pace of our preparations in
5 this case because Mr. Djurdjic and I have absolutely prepared to work on
6 preparing for Witness K90. So we thought that we could be hearing
7 Mr. Peraj on Friday or Monday at the earliest. So the Defence is not
8 prepared to hear Mr. Peraj on Wednesday. Your Honours, to be perfectly
9 honest about this, we cannot handle it before Friday if we really want to
10 be sure that our client has the right to a fair defence. We have really
11 been working very hard on K90. We understand the Prosecutor's reasons,
12 but we really cannot start Peraj on Wednesday. So, Your Honour, we
13 cannot do it.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is grateful for your indication,
16 Mr. Stamp, and it is conscious of the concerns of Mr. Djordjevic. In the
17 Chamber's view, at this stage we would take the view that we should hear
18 the evidence in chief of Witness K90 on Wednesday. If at the end of the
19 evidence in chief Defence counsel is able to deal with some issues, we
20 will proceed with that. Failing that, cross-examination will be on
21 Friday of K90 -- I beg your pardon, of Mr. Peraj. And if at the end of
22 the evidence of Mr. Peraj the witness has recovered, we will move to
23 Witness K90. What this circumstance has disclosed is a difficulty about
24 which we will make specific directions later, but the important thing at
25 the moment is to move on in the hope of finishing this witness tonight,
1 so we will not delay now.
2 So if you can continue, then, Mr. Djordjevic, with your
4 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honours, may
5 I say that I agree that we can start with the direct on Wednesday, no
6 problem with that, if Mr. Stamp can handle it. I'm not opposed to that
7 at all. I would now like to continue straightaway with my
8 cross-examination of this witness.
9 Could we please have on our screens now P312. That's a list that
10 was created by this witness. I just have one question in relation to the
11 list. Could we please have page 4. Page 4, please. That's right.
12 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in the second column are the persons who you listed
13 as persons who were found in their own houses and were burned or lost
14 their lives in another way. So these are Sali Shehu, Dervish Shehu, and
15 Nexhat Shehu, Sejdi Emerllahu, Nazmi Rashkaj, Demir Rashkaj, and then you
16 added Isnija Rashkaj. We see that this is a total of nine persons.
17 You said now unequivocally that there are 20 mounds in the
18 village. Can you tell us about the remaining 11. If this has to do with
19 what you said, I can infer that these nine persons were buried at the
20 same cemetery. So there are 11 remaining mounds or tombs, and you
21 haven't told us who they belong to. So this is a brief question. If we
22 could have a brief comment from you.
23 A. The other people were not the ones who were buried there, whilst
24 these ones on the list were the ones burnt to death in their own houses;
25 whilst as regards the others, we have a common grave. We left them in
1 the same common grave. However, later identification was made possible.
2 They exhumed the ashes. They were able to make the identification, which
3 then resulted in the burial in individual graves, those people who were
4 able to be identified. So they were identified, they were given their
5 own names, and they were buried individually. As far as I'm concerned,
6 this is not that significant.
7 Q. So, Mr. Ramadani, can we conclude that you are stating with
8 certainty that none of these persons who were killed in the massacre that
9 had to do with the barn or the Batusha family were buried here? Is that
10 what you're saying?
11 A. Yes, they are. I didn't say that. There are nine who were in
12 their own homes, and we -- I wasn't part of the party that went to
13 retrieve the ashes from the Drin River
14 identification based exactly on the ashes. So they were able to identify
15 11 from the ashes. This is why identification was made possible, which
16 then resulted in their burial. The ashes were retrieved from the Drin
18 Q. You will agree with me, Mr. Ramadani, that it is impossible to
19 get ashes out of a river. Are these remains of a skeleton of a victim,
20 or what is it that you're telling us?
21 A. When they went to the river, they were able to collect ashes and
22 the occasional bone that remained. They put everything in their proper
23 bags, and then they were able to make the identifications. I will -- I
24 was not with them when this happened. They called me. They invited me
25 to go, but I refused.
1 Q. So, Mr. Ramadani, we can conclude that you are claiming
2 nevertheless that these are the remains of the persons who were massacred
3 in the barn of the Batusha family; right?
4 A. Yes. The ashes come from the barn that belongs to Qazim Batusha,
5 whereas when it concerns the others who were burned in their own house,
6 the occasional remains were found in the houses to make the
8 Q. Tell us, Mr. Ramadani, when were these remains found on the banks
9 of the Drim River
10 A. Immediately after we returned from Albania, two or three weeks
11 afterwards, not any more. It was in the month of June.
12 Q. Mr. Ramadani -- would you like to say something else, actually?
13 A. No. What I was going to say is upon returning from Albania
14 happened. I cannot recall the exact date. I never noted it down.
15 Q. That's not what I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you, and I
16 did ask you, about the approximate time.
17 My next question: Do you know how the bodies were identified,
18 or, rather, who was it that identified these remains? What forensic
19 team, because this requires a great deal of professional skill.
20 A. I don't know. I wasn't there. Forgive me. They are
21 professionals. I don't know. I was not present.
22 Q. My last question in relation to this, Mr. Ramadani: You're not
23 the only witness and the only survivor of this massacre, as we've been
24 calling it. How is it possible that today no one said this? This is the
25 first time we hear of this, and the massacre took place almost ten years
1 ago. No witness ever said it. No prosecutor ever said it. You never
2 said it. No one else did.
3 A. I think I did say. This statement does not come from today.
4 It's from a long time ago. It is not that I write this statement now. I
5 wrote it immediately after the war, immediately after returning from
8 Q. This is, indeed, not contained in any one of your statements, but
9 I'm not going to ask you anything else about this. I'm going to go back
10 to the crime scene.
11 Mr. Lutfi, you said several times in your statements that the
12 site was blown up. Could you please tell me on the basis of what you
13 actually said that?
14 A. I can say -- I can say that it was an explosion because there are
15 only two craters. Everything has been uprooted. The only thing that
16 exists over there at the moment is two craters that are filled with
17 either grass or water. That's why I say it.
18 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you mentioned in your testimony a bulldozer. Could
19 you please tell me in what context this bulldozer was mentioned as far as
20 the crime scene was concerned? Who was it that saw these bulldozers on
21 the crime scene?
22 A. If I recall it correctly, I did not mention it. However, the
23 tracks were visible when we returned. I'm not sure I've ever mentioned
24 that or who was with that bulldozer at the time.
25 MS. NILSEN: Sorry, Your Honours, to interrupt.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Nilsen.
2 MS. NILSEN: Thank you. The Prosecution would like know which
3 pages of the testimony the Defence lawyer is referring to when he's
4 calling upon the mentioned bulldozers. Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It is my recollection that there was no reference
6 to bulldozers in the evidence of the witness, Mr. Djordjevic.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm quite sure that
8 this was mentioned. I will go back to the reference as I did a few
9 moments ago when we were dealing with paramilitaries. I will go back to
10 the reference to bulldozers. They were mentioned, for sure, but I'd like
11 to move on now because time is precious. I had assumed that the witness
12 is going to say something in line with what he had already stated, but
13 that obviously did not happen.
14 Now could we have P311 displayed. So there is a wheelchair. I
15 think Sait Hajdari was mentioned by the witness. So could we please see
16 this on the screen now. Yes. Now we have the image.
17 Q. After displaying this image, I would like to ask the witness
18 whether it is with certainty that he recognises Hajdari's wheelchair and
19 the wife of the late Sait Hajdari. Could the witness please have a
20 careful look.
21 A. Yes. I'm certain that this is Sait Hajdari's wheelchair. Two
22 hundred per cent certain, I am.
23 Q. And what about his wife? Do you recognise her with certainty?
24 A. His wife, too, yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the
2 usher to display a portion of the Milutinovic transcript, P00306, page 9,
3 please. Thank you.
4 Q. In line 16, when you are asked whether that was the wheelchair
5 and whether you can compare it to the wheelchair that actually had to do
6 with what happened in 1999, you say that it is similar. You are now
7 saying that it's Sait Hajdari's wheelchair. Why did you state that then,
8 and why do you say you are 100 or 200 per cent sure? Could you just tell
9 me that?
10 A. I'm absolutely certain that that was Sait Hajdari's wheelchair.
11 I said it at the time, and I'm saying it today, that that wheelchair
12 belonged to Sait Hajdari.
13 JUDGE PARKER: The reference you made is not the one that's on
14 the screen, I'm afraid, Mr. Djordjevic.
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm just a little bit
16 tired, but it is -- I'm positive that it is not Milutinovic. It is
17 Milosevic, in fact, testimony. D0014430, page 9. That's the right
19 [Interpretation] The witness then said that the wheelchair was
20 similar. He did not speak with any degree of certainty. So it's not
21 true that he said then what he's saying now.
22 Secondly, in response to the direct question as to whether he
23 knew the woman on the photograph, that's already on line -- in line 4 of
24 the next page, he says, "No, I do not know this woman."
25 How does the witness know the woman now and did not know her
1 then? How can his memory be better now than it was then at that time?
2 Could he just explain that?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, this is now the transcript on the
4 screen, isn't it? Line 9:
5 "You referred to a wheelchair being positioned in the doorway..."
6 et cetera. Is that the one that you mentioned?
7 And the answer at line 16, the answer: "It's similar."
8 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Now, if you go on to line 17 and 18:
10 "Who was the crippled individual in the wheelchair?"
11 The answer is: "Sait Hajdari was in this wheelchair."
12 Then at line 19: "Do you recognise the lady depicted in that
13 photograph?" Yes --
14 At line 25: "Yes, I know this person. I knew ..." and it's on
15 the next page.
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: No, that's not right, Your Honour. Witness
17 thought about Hajdari Sait, but look at the next page, 3, 4, 5 and 6. Is
18 that correct, Your Honour?
19 JUDGE PARKER: We're waiting for the next page.
20 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Oh, sorry. Sorry.
21 JUDGE PARKER: That's not the next page that's come on the
23 MR. DJORDJEVIC: It's page number 10.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the first answer is that it's "Sait Hajdari,
25 and that's what his wheelchair was like." And then the question is
2 "Do you know the lady ..."
3 "No, I don't know this woman."
4 "Thank you."
5 MR. DJORDJEVIC: That's correct.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I think that what you put to the witness is
7 not correct. What emerges from this evidence is that this is similar to,
8 or this is what the wheelchair was like, but it was the wheelchair in
9 which Sait Hajdari was sitting, and the lady with the wheelchair on this
10 evidence is, "No, I don't know this woman."
11 I think you suggested to the witness that he couldn't identify
12 the wheelchair and he couldn't identify the lady.
13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not want to
14 put anything to the witness, although leading questions are allowed in
15 the cross-examination. What I wanted to ask this witness is why at that
16 time he stated that the wheelchair was similar, and that's what he did
17 say, that Sait Hajdari was a person in a wheelchair, and that's not
18 controversial at all. But when he was asked about the wheelchair, he
19 said it was similar, he wasn't 100 per cent sure, and when he was asked
20 by the Prosecution whether he knew the woman, he said, "No, I don't know
21 this woman." And when it was clarified to him -- that's why I want to
22 ask the witness why we have this discrepancy in his evidence between what
23 he said then and what he's saying now. How come that today he's 100 per
24 cent sure that this is the wheelchair and --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.
1 Mr. Ramadani, you have seen, I believe, a transcript of your
2 evidence in the trial of Mr. Milosevic when you were shown, I believe,
3 the same photograph as is now Exhibit P311, the lady and the wheelchair,
4 and you said that you did not know this woman. In your evidence today,
5 you've indicated that although you didn't know her well, you're sure that
6 that is the wife of Sait Hajdari.
7 Are you able to offer any explanation for the difference in your
8 evidence on these two occasions?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is not important
10 as far as this lady's concerned, whether she was Sait's wife or not. The
11 important thing is that this wheelchair belongs to Sait Hajdari and that
12 he was seated in it and that the wheelchair was placed at the doorway.
13 At the time, I didn't take any interest in knowing this woman. That was
14 not important to me, and this might be the difference that the gentleman
15 is pointing out, whether I said that this was the woman or that she was
16 not the woman. The important thing for me, at least, is that this is the
17 wheelchair that belonged to Sait and that Sait was seated in it when he
18 was killed.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Is your evidence today that the woman in the
20 photograph is the wife of Sait Hajdari evidence that you are now certain
21 about, or are you saying that you do not know that woman?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I'm certain that this is his
24 JUDGE PARKER: And do you have any explanation why you did not
25 know that when you gave evidence in the Milosevic trial?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I didn't have any contacts.
2 I didn't see that woman. I knew that Sait was disabled, couldn't move.
3 She would take him out for a walk. I didn't take any interest in knowing
4 her. When we returned, however, after the war from Albania, I got to
5 know her and found out who she was. This is the reason.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, I have concentrated on the lady in
7 the photograph because the evidence of the witness about that is clearly
8 in contradiction. I think the evidence about the actual wheelchair is
9 less clear, but you see where we have got about the identification of the
10 woman, and I hope that has assisted you.
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Unfortunately, I have to say that I am unable to complete the
13 cross-examination of this witness today. I will have to continue into
14 the next trial day, and I have a set of questions that will take 20
15 minutes or so. It's a logical hole, so I would like us to stop working
17 JUDGE PARKER: Fortunately, Mr. Djordjevic, it is possible for
18 the Chamber now to sit tomorrow morning. A courtroom is available. It
19 hadn't been, but it is now the case, so that it will be possible for us
20 to continue tomorrow morning to conclude the evidence of this witness, I
21 would expect in the first session, which will mean that at least this
22 witness will be able to leave, and we can then proceed with the evidence
23 in chief of the next witness commencing Wednesday morning.
24 If there's no difficulty with either counsel about sitting
25 tomorrow morning to finish this witness - I see there is none - that is
1 what the Chamber will do.
2 Mr. Ramadani, we must now adjourn for the evening. It's 7.00,
3 but we have arranged to proceed to finish your evidence tomorrow morning.
4 So we will sit again at 9.00, and we expect that your evidence will be
5 concluded early in the day and you will be able to get away.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That's how it's going to
7 be, Your Honour, I'm sure. Thank you.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day
10 of February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.