Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1146

 1                           Tuesday, 17 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Good morning, in particular, to

 6     those who have been so generous with their time as to be available at

 7     this very short notice to enable us to sit this morning.

 8             The witness is being brought in, I believe.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10                           WITNESS:  LUTFI RAMADANI [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, Mr. Ramadani.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  I will remind you of the affirmation you made to

15     tell the truth at the beginning of your evidence, which still applies.

16             Now, Mr. Djordjevic, your cross-examination is continuing.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]

19        Q.   [Interpretation] As I promised during my cross-examination in

20     relation to the bulldozers, I have to provide a reference, first and

21     foremost.  We're dealing with the Milutinovic case, and could it please

22     be called up.  P306, page 29.  In the transcript it is marked as 4311.

23     Thank you.

24             Mr. Ramadani, please look at lines 4, 5, and 6 of this

25     transcript.  In all fairness, it's in English.  It's the transcript in

Page 1147

 1     English, but the point of that section is that you said:

 2              "We found some burned shoes and some sleeves, some pieces of

 3     clothes, nothing else, because ..." and then you said:  "... bulldozers

 4     had been working before."  And before that, you said those that had been

 5     digging.

 6             I wish to remind you of that detail because we have never heard

 7     that before or after.  Who told you about these bulldozers?  I mean, if

 8     you actually did refer to bulldozers, because yesterday you said that you

 9     did not mention bulldozers at all.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, what you said yesterday suggested

11     to me and I believe the witness -- that the witness had spoken in his

12     evidence in this court of bulldozers, which was not -- it's still my

13     recollection that he didn't mention bulldozers in this court.  What you

14     are now doing is putting to him what he said in a previous trial.  Just

15     understand that there has been a significant movement of ground by you on

16     that matter.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, perhaps it

18     was understood in a different way, but the point was that the witness did

19     not mention bulldozers yesterday at all, and I had asked about

20     bulldozers.  Yesterday the witness said, "I never mentioned bulldozers."

21     That's what the transcript says.  That is the reply to my question.  And

22     I said that later on I would go back to that when I find the actual

23     reference.  My reference is from the Milutinovic case.  I have referred

24     to the proper transcript page and line, et cetera.  So that was my

25     intention yesterday, too, but perhaps I've been misunderstood.

Page 1148

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  The position which I put to you is my

 2     understanding of it, that yesterday what you said was in the context of

 3     what had been said in court in this trial.

 4             Now, I take it that you accept that there was no mention in the

 5     course of the evidence of this trial by the witness of bulldozers, and

 6     that's all that his comment to you was about.  Yes.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I asked him the following:  You

 8     mentioned bulldozers earlier on, and the witness said, "No."  And I said,

 9     "Well, I'll find the reference," but I couldn't find it yesterday.  So my

10     question was whether it was these machines that were out there, and the

11     witness said I never mentioned any bulldozers.  That is what the

12     transcript says, I mean yesterday's transcript in relation to

13     Mr. Ramadani's testimony.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, could I suggest you stop debating

15     the issue.  What is clear is that what was understood by your question

16     yesterday is that the witness had mentioned bulldozers in this courtroom

17     yesterday.  He hadn't.  Now, he may -- there well may be some issue about

18     bulldozers you want to follow up from a previous trial.  Please, if you

19     want to do that, okay, and no need to keep talking about it.  Just move

20     on to deal with the question.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.  I do

22     apologise.  I may have misspoken, and perhaps I explained it the wrong

23     way.

24        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, as you can see in this case, the Milutinovic case,

25     during your testimony you referred to bulldozers.  Could you give us your

Page 1149

 1     brief comment with regard to this particular section, this quote from the

 2     transcript from that case.  Could you just tell us what you know about

 3     that.  Thank you.

 4        A.   The traces of bulldozers or lorries were there.  I didn't mention

 5     the bulldozer as such because those concrete blocks, to be removed from

 6     the site, they require machinery.  They cannot be removed just by hands.

 7     There you have two -- two craters.  We found two craters after the war.

 8     So how they removed all that, that I don't know, but I suggest that they

 9     required bulldozers.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.  This is much clearer now.

11             In relation to what you stated yesterday, I will have to ask you

12     to explain why is it that until yesterday you had never mentioned the

13     fact that you had found some bodies, as well, and that they had been

14     identified and that those who wanted to find these bodies - it was

15     probably their family members - they found them on the banks of the Drim

16     River.  Why did you refer to that only yesterday?  And I think that this

17     is an important fact.  You never mentioned this identification, not in

18     the Milosevic case.  I do apologise.  I'd just like to give you a

19     reference.  For example, it is D001, page 18.  So could that please be

20     displayed on the screens.  It is part of the Milosevic transcript.

21     D001-4430, page 18.

22             You say there:

23             "I don't know what happened to their bodies.  The only thing we

24     found were clothes and shoes ..." and so on and so forth.  It is line 21,

25     all the way up to the end of that page.  You did not refer to the Drim

Page 1150

 1     River at all, all of these things that you spoke of yesterday.  What's

 2     the reason for that?

 3        A.   I did mention the Drini River.  However, these remains were

 4     identified in 2007, I believe, and after that they were reburied.

 5        Q.   Correct me, Mr. Ramadani, if I'm wrong, but it was my

 6     understanding that these remains were found in 1999, on the basis of what

 7     you said yesterday, and that they were transferred to Pristina, that some

 8     experts did that there.  It wasn't my understanding that it was only now.

 9        A.   They were taken to the Rahovec morgue first and then to the

10     Prishtina morgue, and they were returned to us in 2007, some of the

11     remains.

12        Q.   My last question in relation to all of these things that you've

13     said with regard to the crime scene where all these victims had lost

14     their lives and all of this in specific terms is the following:  Was an

15     official list of compiled by the official authorities that were then

16     established in Kosovo?  I am referring to UNMIK and the others.  In

17     relation to this crime, I mean.  That's what I'm referring to.  Is there

18     an official list of the fatalities with specific details, including their

19     personal identification numbers and everything else?

20             Now, yesterday the list of persons who had lost their lives that

21     you compiled and Mr. Avdyli, who hails from the same village as you do,

22     and -- Mr. Krasniqi, rather, do you know that after that some new list

23     was made, a complete one, of the persons who had lost their lives in Mala

24     Krusa on the 26th of March, 1999?

25        A.   We made the list, and some got the list.  I wasn't there when

Page 1151

 1     they got the list, so I don't know which authorities got the list.  When

 2     I compiled the list I gave it to the investigators, but as for other

 3     authorities from UNMIK, that I don't know.  I don't know who from UNMIK

 4     got the list.  I didn't ask for their names.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.  I'm going to move on to my next

 6     question now.

 7             Several times you made statements, and you testified in the

 8     Milutinovic case, in the Milosevic case, and you spoke about that in your

 9     statements that you gave to the investigators of this Tribunal.  It has

10     to do with an agreement that was allegedly reached between the Serbs and

11     the Albanians.  You refer to three surnames there, three persons, and on

12     your -- from the Serb side, that is, and on your side you mention the

13     late Mr. Ismail Arifi.  However, you gave different testimony with regard

14     to that agreement.  In relation to this, I'm going to put two questions

15     to you.

16             First question:  Do you know whether this agreement was concluded

17     at all?

18        A.   I wasn't personally present, and I mentioned it yesterday that

19     even if an agreement was reached, the Serb side did not abide by it.

20     They killed; they shelled; they burned.  So I wasn't there to witness any

21     agreement.  But even if this agreement was reached, it was not respected

22     by the Serbs.  The Serbs didn't see any threat from the Albanians.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Mr. Arifi [sic], now I'm going to ask the usher

24     to show all of us here in the courtroom on our monitors something from

25     the Milosevic case:  D001-4430, page 12.

Page 1152

 1             Fine.  Mr. Ramadani, first of all, I would like to show you lines

 2     9, 10, and 11 on this page.  This is the answer that you provide to the

 3     question that was put to you by the accused, and you say:  "They did make

 4     an agreement ..." if they made it.  That's what you say here.  You're

 5     speaking in the conditional.  "I wasn't present."  That's what you said

 6     today too.  However, do you know from anyone that this agreement had

 7     indeed been reached because here you say they did make an agreement, or

 8     are you assuming all the time when you're speaking about this agreement

 9     that it was reached?  Do you really know from someone that such an

10     agreement was concluded or not?  Could you just give me a brief answer?

11        A.   This is just hearsay.  As I said, I wasn't present physically

12     during that agreement, and I don't know if that agreement was reached and

13     under which terms.  If an agreement was reached, it wasn't abided by by

14     the Serbs.

15        Q.   My understanding is that you explained then that the Serbs

16     committed themselves then that they would protect the Albanians from the

17     Serb forces or anybody else in case there is a conflict, and when you

18     said that Serbs did not honour this agreement, they were burning and

19     torching, et cetera.  However, there's another part of your agreement.

20     You said that the other part of this agreement that had been concluded

21     was that the Albanians would protect the Serbs from the KLA.  Why did you

22     say that then, and what was it that you meant when you said that?  That's

23     the question that was put to you, and that was the testimony that you

24     gave.

25        A.   That is not true.  What I'm saying now is what I said then.  I

Page 1153

 1     didn't say anything else.  I just said that I wasn't present during that

 2     agreement if there was an agreement.  And I already told you that even if

 3     an agreement was reached, the Serbs didn't respect it.  I'm not aware of

 4     saying what you're putting to me.

 5        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, my question was how is it that you then claimed

 6     that they had reached an agreement, and how come you're saying today that

 7     the Serbs did not honour the agreement?  And there probably wasn't an

 8     agreement or you don't know about it, but if that is the case, then

 9     please tell us "I don't know," et cetera.  But it doesn't seem to be

10     logical.  If you have another comment, I mean, I'm not going to pursue

11     this line of questioning because obviously I am unable to get an answer

12     to the question that I keep putting.

13             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Nilsen.

15             MS. NILSEN:  The Defence lawyer is apparently referring to the

16     statement given by the witness, the 18th and the 20th of July, 1999,

17     where he is talking about this allegedly agreement which the witness also

18     said today is a hearsay evidence.  He was told about this.

19             On page -- page 3, my learned colleague, if you can look at that.

20     There is not a referring to an agreement where the Albanians would

21     protect the Serbs against the KLA.  The correct sentence is that they

22     would protect the Serbs from the UCK.  Thank you.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend, I have to

24     remind you that the UCK is the same thing as the OVK or the KLA.  It's

25     one and the same thing.  You probably didn't hear what I was saying.  So

Page 1154

 1     the UCK is the same thing as the OVK and the KLA.  So the witness says

 2     that the Albanians would protect the Serbs from the KLA, the UCK, the

 3     OVK.  It's one and the same thing.  The Milosevic testimony refers to

 4     precisely that part of the witness's testimony, and he said that he was

 5     not present, and I am not asking the witness about that.  I'm just asking

 6     the witness -- he did say that it was hearsay evidence, yes.  Now, who he

 7     learned that from, you will agree that that is a bit more detail for a

 8     person who says maybe he was there, maybe he wasn't.  Obviously the

 9     witness knew that there was an agreement, but I want him to tell me who

10     he heard this from, and he says that the Serbs did not honour it.  He did

11     not say what was it that they did not honour.  What he doesn't know

12     about, that is what they did not honour?  If he doesn't know, we can move

13     on.

14        Q.   I mean, I cannot force you to be -- to speak about something that

15     you either don't know or do not wish to speak about, but, of course, I

16     don't want to infer anything on the basis of all of this.  It is for

17     others to do that.

18             But my question was just if you could explain this.  Why did you

19     mention the KLA, and why did you mention that there was this kind of an

20     agreement?  Nothing else.  Please just don't repeat everything that

21     you've already said when I do know actually that you were not present.

22     Yes.

23        A.   I didn't say that an agreement was reached.  I wasn't physically

24     present.  I didn't know that an agreement existed.  However, even if we

25     suggest that there was an agreement, I am telling you that they did not

Page 1155

 1     respect that agreement.  This is my belief.  As I said, I wasn't there

 2     and I cannot confirm whether there was or there wasn't an agreement made.

 3     This is all hearsay words.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  In the Milosevic trial, Mr. Ramadani, it would

 5     appear that you said you had been told by Ismail Arifi that there had

 6     been an agreement.  Is that a correct understanding of the position?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't present there when this

 8     agreement was made, if it was made.  This is all that I heard from other

 9     people.  To what extent it is true, that I don't know.  That's why I said

10     in the past that I only heard about an agreement.  However, even if there

11     was an agreement, it wasn't respected by the Serb side.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that, but is it correct that you

13     heard that there was an agreement made between the Serbs and the Albanian

14     villagers?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I heard rumours.  That's

16     not a direct information that I got.  I just heard people mentioning an

17     agreement, but personally I was not aware of any.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Is Ismail Arifi one of the people from whom you

19     heard these rumours?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were rumours that I heard

21     when people were speaking between themselves, not from Ismail Arifi

22     directly.  This was a conversation going on while we were near the creek.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Did these rumours indicate that the agreement was

24     that the Serbs would protect the Albanian population and that the

25     Albanians would protect the Serbs from the UCK?

Page 1156

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how it was possible

 2     for them to protect the Serbs from the KLA when there was no KLA presence

 3     there.  The Serbs on the other side, they were all mobilised.  They were

 4     dressed in uniforms.  They had weapons, and they had the upper hand.  As

 5     I said, I was not personally involved in these matters.  It's just that I

 6     overheard these conversations.  I did not hear this information directly

 7     from Ismail Arifi.  It's just hearsay, as I said.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  And that hearsay, I wonder whether you

 9     could tell me whether it indicated that the agreement, firstly, was for

10     the Serbs to protect the Albanian villagers.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some were saying this, and some

12     others were saying other things.  Personally, I didn't take any interest

13     in these conversations.  We were threatened by the Serbs at the time.  So

14     for me personally, they didn't play a great role, these conversations.

15     This is just what people were talking between themselves there.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Right.  Well, I understand you to say that you did

17     hear from some people that there was an agreement that the Serbs would

18     protect the Albanian population; is that correct?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  This is what they were

20     talking about.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Right.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the Serbs did not respect their

23     word, their promise, and it all fell apart.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you also hear from some people that the

25     agreement also provided that Albanians would protect the Serbs from the

Page 1157

 1     UCK?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, there is no

 3     ground for such a promise because there was no KLA presence in my

 4     village.  So that's why I don't know why they would promise such a thing,

 5     to protect the Serbs from the KLA.

 6             We were a mixed village in terms of ethnicity, so there was no

 7     chance that there would be a KLA presence in our village, and that's why

 8     I don't see any ground for such a promise.  These were all rumours.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  I think we can understand very well what you say,

10     that you couldn't understand why there would be such any -- any such

11     agreement, but what I'm asking you is whether you heard that there was an

12     agreement which included a provision that the -- that the Albanian people

13     would protect the Serbs from the UCK.  Did you hear it being suggested

14     that there was such an agreement?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I overheard this

16     conversation not directly from Ismail Arifi.  Now, I don't even know who

17     was involved in that conversation, but they were talking about these

18     things.  Directly, I didn't get any information from anyone about this.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  I understand your answer there to be yes, you

20     heard that being said; is that correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  We'll leave it that

22     way, then.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It's a matter of trying to understand,

24     Mr. Ramadani, what it was that you heard at the time.  Now, that doesn't

25     mean if you heard it that it's correct, but it's only the question

Page 1158

 1     whether you heard it, and it seems that you may have heard from someone

 2     or some people at the time.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I overheard these type

 4     of conversations but not directly from Ismail Arifi or others that you

 5     mention.  This is just talks that I overheard from others who were

 6     discussing what was going on, what was happening.  Personally, I was

 7     concerned about the safety of myself and my family, the shelling had

 8     already started, and so on and so forth.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

10             Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krasniqi [sic], how far is Prizren from your

13     village?

14        A.   Fifteen kilometres.

15        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation.  Mr. Krasniqi [sic], how far

16     is Orahovac from your village?

17        A.   About 12 kilometres, I would say.

18        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, how far is Djakovica from your village?

19        A.   I don't see these questions reasonable.  It is more important to

20     treat the issue of women left without men, without children, and houses

21     left without --

22        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi [sic], please, I have to interrupt you.

23        A.   I'm Mr. Ramadani.

24        Q.   Please don't comment, because I need you to just answer my

25     question.  How far is Djakovica from your village?  That's the question

Page 1159

 1     that I asked you.

 2        A.   I did not measures the distance but approximately 30 kilometres.

 3        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, did you hear of an organisation called the UCK,

 4     OVK, or KLA at that time in Kosovo before March 1999?  Did you have any

 5     knowledge of it or not?

 6        A.   I didn't take any interest in these issues whether there was KLA

 7     or not.  I was a farmer, and I -- my main interest was to provide for my

 8     family.  I was not interested in the KLA.

 9        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, you will agree with me that you lived in that area,

10     that you lived side by side with those people, with people of your ethnic

11     community, with Roma, with Serbs, and of course you were concerned for

12     your own safety, and you wanted to know what was going on outside of your

13     village.  There was TV.  There were media, the press, Serbian, Albanian.

14     At any rate, there was the inflow of information.  And now I'm asking

15     you, did you hear about the abductions of Serbs before March 1999?  Did

16     you hear about the murders and the bodies that were found in Kosovo?  And

17     even if it is Serb propaganda, I'm not saying that it is, that the Serb

18     propaganda claimed that this was going on.  But I cannot agree with you

19     that you didn't hear about it and that you were not interested in it.

20     You're saying about the Serb forces going there.  Well, you're a farmer.

21     You shouldn't be interested in that.  Now I'm asking you.  I want you to

22     tell me whether you knew as an Albanian that the KLA existed.  As a

23     patriot, as a member of the Albanian ethnic community, were you aware of

24     it?  If you tell me you were not aware I will be quite happy, and I will

25     agree with you.

Page 1160

 1        A.   There was no KLA presence in our area.  It existed, if it

 2     existed, in the Drenica area.

 3        Q.   So there was some at the time.  You said it was around Drenica.

 4     Did you hear about any fighting around Djakovica between the KLA and the

 5     Serb forces and also fighting between the Serb forces and the KLA around

 6     Prizren?

 7        A.   I did not hear about these fightings.  I've seen tanks and APCs

 8     moving along the main road.  I haven't seen any combat activities, so I

 9     cannot help you with that.

10        Q.   You cannot.  Mr. Ramadani, you've already mentioned tanks so many

11     times.  Yesterday I wanted to hear about the shelling, and I asked you

12     some questions about that.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the

14     usher to bring up to our screens the English and the Albanian versions of

15     the statement this witness gave on the 5th of October, 2001.  That's

16     D001-4382 for the English version and D001-4392 for the Albanian version.

17     If we could please have that.

18             Well, yes, I have been warned that this has been admitted into

19     evidence as D29.  So could we please have that.  Could we please look at

20     page 3.  The English version too.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, in your statement, this is paragraph -- I'll look

22     in the B/C/S and it's probably similar, both in English and Albanian.

23     Perhaps it's one or two paragraphs up or down.  In B/C/S, it's paragraph

24     8, and it begins with the following words:

25              "I have been asked how many VJ vehicles were on the asphalt road

Page 1161

 1     outside Kruse e Vogel ..."

 2             And then it goes on.

 3             "There was a line" -- "They were lined up along the

 4     Djakovica-Prizren road -- the asphalt road.  They were first deployed

 5     there on the 25th of March, 1999, at 4.00 a.m.  I saw 30 to 40 vehicles

 6     parked on the road.  The vehicles I saw were a mixture between an APC and

 7     Pragas.  They were not camouflage.  The APCs were normal blue MUP colour,

 8     and the Pragas were the normal green colour such as the VJ had.  The

 9     Pragas were armed with machine-guns and cannon.  Pragas can have

10     different types of weapons.  The Pragas were manned by the VJ troops.

11              "I don't know who was manning the APCs, but I presume that it

12     was MUP."

13             And then you say:

14             "I have been asked if I am aware of any T-55 tanks being

15     stationed in the area of Kruse e Vogel at this time.  I have been asked

16     if I saw any rockets on any of those vehicles ..." and your answer was,

17     "No."

18              "I have been asked if any of these weapons were used in the

19     attack."  Well, I'm not going to go on.  I asked you yesterday about

20     that, and today I'm asking you -- well, I'm not asking you to describe

21     what a T-55 tank looks like, but let me ask you this:  Did you do your

22     national service in the army?

23        A.   Yes.  I was in the navy.

24        Q.   So you did your national service in the former Socialist

25     Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, I presume.

Page 1162

 1        A.   Yes.  I was in the navy.  I completed my military service in

 2     1966.

 3        Q.   You will agree with me that the army that existed at that time in

 4     the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia was among the best

 5     equipped and strongest armies in the region?

 6        A.   I don't know whether it was the most sophisticated army or not.

 7     The officers knew that.  We were ordinary soldiers, and it was not our

 8     business to know which armies were modern and which were not.  Those who

 9     were trained and schooled in this, they knew it.  We were just ordinary

10     soldiers, as I said.

11        Q.   While you did your national service, were you promoted to any

12     rank, Mr. Lutfi?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14        Q.   I presume that you did the regular military service while you

15     were in the navy -- or, rather, regular training while you served there.

16     Let me correct myself.

17        A.   Yes, in Pula.

18        Q.   And in line with this, my next question is going to be:  Can you

19     tell us, what is a tank?  You keep talking about tanks, tanks, tanks.

20     When you say "tank," what do you mean by that when you say "tank,"

21     Mr. Ramadani?

22        A.   A tank has a long barrel.  It can have steel tracks.  There are

23     also tanks on wheels to protect the asphalt, but there are also tanks on

24     steel tracks.  I don't know every specific group of tanks, but I know

25     that they have long barrels, and those who man the tanks have their

Page 1163

 1     special equipment, military equipment.  This is what I know about tanks,

 2     nothing else.  Those who have completed military academies may have

 3     better knowledge about this.  Personally, I wasn't trained for this.

 4        Q.   You say that they have long barrels.  Are you referring to cannon

 5     or what?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I was referring to cannons, to the long barrels.

 7        Q.   And those tanks that you're telling us about, are those tracked

 8     tanks or wheeled tanks?

 9        A.   No.  These ones were on tracks, with tracks, the ones that I saw.

10     I don't know what their exact name is.

11        Q.   That's what I assumed, Mr. Ramadani.  But at any rate, you have a

12     very generalised notion of what a tank is, and I have, too, because I'm

13     not very familiar with military skills.  So, Mr. Ramadani, could you

14     please tell us, it is quite obvious that at that time in 2001 when you

15     gave this statement, you knew what a tank was in principle.  It is true

16     that here you were asked about T-55, and you said that there weren't any

17     tanks.  Why did you say that at the time, and now you're saying something

18     completely different?  You said that there were Pragas and APCs.  That's

19     what you say in your 2001 statement.  That's almost eight years ago.

20        A.   I don't have the statements with me.  There were tanks.  There

21     were anti-aircraft equipment, cannons, everything.  I don't have the

22     statement with me, and you can see there what I've said.  Only if a

23     mistake was made, then that's a different story.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps I could help, Mr. Ramadani.  The statement

25     which is being referred to by Mr. Djordjevic includes a question -- or a

Page 1164

 1     passage which reads:

 2              "I have been asked if I am aware of any T- 55 tanks being

 3     stationed in the area of Krusha e Vogel at this time."  And the answer

 4     you gave was no, and I think that's this passage which Mr. Djordjevic is

 5     putting to you.  Were you aware of any T-55 tanks being stationed in the

 6     area the village?  And your answer was no as it's recorded in this

 7     statement.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  In the village

 9     itself, there was no tank.  The tanks were camouflaged, and they were

10     positioned almost near Krusha e Madhe.  There were APCs and Pragas along

11     the main road.  There were tanks, as well, but they were further from our

12     village, almost next to Krusha e Madhe.  My house is in the outskirts of

13     the village, and you can see it very well, that part, from my house.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, you said that you in fact don't know what a T-55

16     is.  You know what a tank is, but you don't know what a T-55 is.  Can I

17     then agree with you that in your statement of the 5th October that we

18     have in front of us on the screen, when you said that there were no

19     tanks, T--55 tanks there, that what you actually meant was that there

20     were no tanks at all, or can we not agree?

21        A.   What I wanted to say and what I meant by that was that there were

22     no tanks in the village of Krusa e Vogel itself, inside the village.

23        Q.   It is clear from your testimony the tanks could only be on the

24     road, the asphalt road, because you keep insisting that the army did not

25     take part at all.  You will agree with me then?

Page 1165

 1        A.   The army did take part, but it was positioned around the village,

 2     on the sides.  The police were inside the village.  The military, the

 3     army, was positioned by the main road, Prishtina -- correction,

 4     Prizren-Gjakove, not in the village itself.  There were only policemen in

 5     the village.

 6        Q.   That's clear from your evidence, Mr. Ramadani, but when you speak

 7     about tanks, tanks were used by the Yugoslav army, and as you say, it was

 8     not in the village; it was outside of the village.  So it is not

 9     controversial that the tanks and all the other military equipment could

10     be seen outside of the village on the asphalt road between Djakovica and

11     Prizren.  It was only to be expected.  But when you said that there were

12     no tanks, they did not ask you whether there were any tanks in the

13     village.  They -- you say that they were there where you could expect

14     them to be, on the road, 30 to 40 vehicles on the asphalt road outside of

15     the village.  You said that you didn't see any tanks there.  Why do you

16     say that then?  It is uncontroversial that there were no tanks in the

17     village.  That's what you're saying, yes, but there where you saw those

18     vehicles, the VJ vehicles, 30 to 40 of them, you say that there were no

19     tanks there.  Why did you say that at the time and now you say something

20     different?  Please could you tell me that, and then I will have no

21     further questions.

22        A.   The main road, Prizren-Gjakove, there the military were

23     positioned with their tanks and anti-aircraft equipment and so on and so

24     forth.  They were not in the village itself.  I've always said that there

25     was no military presence in the village; only the police was there.

Page 1166

 1        Q.   Why did you say that there were Pragas and APCs, and then when

 2     you were asked about a tank specifically, about T-55 tanks, you say there

 3     weren't any, and now you're saying there were?

 4        A.   I will state again that they were outside the village, not inside

 5     the village.  There was no army presence in the village, and there were

 6     no tanks in the village.  Only the police were present in the village.

 7        Q.   I'm asking you, when the investigator asked you a direct question

 8     whether there was a T-55 tank, you say no.  Of course we're not talking

 9     about tanks in the village.  Could you please explain that if you can?

10     Please don't --

11             MS. NILSEN:  Objection, Your Honours.  The situation is not that

12     the investigator asked this question.  I would like to draw the attention

13     to the Milutinovic statement -- or, sorry, the Milutinovic transcript,

14     page number 63.  It's already given a P number, P003 --

15             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness is being asked at the moment about

16     this statement --

17             MS. NILSEN:  Yes, I'm aware of that.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  -- in October.  I don't think it would be helpful

19     for you to suggest something that may have been said in another trial

20     about this.

21             MS. NILSEN:  I'm aware of that.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness can comment on this statement --

23             MS. NILSEN:  I'm aware of this, Your Honour.  I just would like

24     to state that exactly the same thing has been confronted to this witness

25     in a previously transcript.

Page 1167

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that's a matter -- sorry to stop you, but

 2     it's not proper for you to be suggesting that at the moment.  The witness

 3     will answer these questions.  You, if you wish, may raise something in

 4     re-examination.

 5             MS. NILSEN:  That's fine, Your Honour.  I would still like to say

 6     that this question was not raised by the investigator.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, did you hear me?  Don't raise it at this

 8     time.

 9             MS. NILSEN:  Okay.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  You can't coach the witness in that way.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, I'm forced to read back to you again what you

13     stated, and could you please put on your glasses and look at what you

14     said.  You have your own statement in front of you on the screen, so let

15     us assist the Trial Chamber.  Let us try and assist ourselves to clear up

16     some things.  Thank you.

17             You see that they were first deployed there at 4.00 a.m. on the

18     25th of March.  "I saw 40 to 50 vehicles parked on the road."  Well,

19     that's uncontroversial.  On the road outside of the village.  What road?

20     It was the Djakovica-Prizren road.  You will agree with me; right?  Very

21     well.

22             "The vehicles I saw were a mixture of APCs and Pragas.  They were

23     not camouflaged ..." so no tanks.

24             Let us skip the three paragraphs, and then you say:

25             "I have been asked if I'm aware of any T-55 tanks being stationed

Page 1168

 1     in the area of Krusa e Vogel at this time."

 2             So not even on the road but somewhere around it, three

 3     kilometres, and you say, "No."  Nobody asked you about whether it was the

 4     tank -- if the tank was in the village, not even on the road but in the

 5     area of Mala Krusa, and you say no, and then there are some questions

 6     about what we discussed yesterday.  We concluded there were no artillery,

 7     but here we have one more answer on your part.  You know there were no

 8     rockets there, and there was not a single tank there.  You are sure about

 9     that.  Could you please tell me, what did you mean then, and what do you

10     mean today; what did you mean yesterday?  Because you keep talking about

11     tanks, and in 2001, when your memory was much fresher, the unpleasant

12     events that you had been through, there were no tanks.  That's what you

13     say.  That's a fact.  So could you please just answer this.  I will not

14     be asking any further questions, and I will not dwell on this anymore,

15     regardless of your answer.

16        A.   I was questioned about the tanks and -- in the village.  The

17     Prosecutors asked me whether there were tanks in the village, and I told

18     them there were no tanks in the village.

19        Q.   I do apologise, Mr. Ramadani, but that's not true.  They were

20     asking you very nicely whether in the area of Mala Krusa there was a

21     tank, in the area of Mala Krusa, not even on the road, in the area of

22     Mala Krusa, and your answer was no.  So what you're saying now is not

23     true.

24        A.   I'm telling you that they asked me about the tanks, whether there

25     were tanks in the village, whether there were army in the village.  I

Page 1169

 1     told them that in the village there were no tanks.  There were no

 2     soldiers.  There were only police.  They were asking me about things in

 3     the village.  There were no questions about outside the village.  The

 4     army was actually stationed on the road from Prizren to Gjakove.  In the

 5     village, the army was not.  This is what I told them.

 6        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, this signature in the Roman script down here at the

 7     bottom of the page, is that your signature?  Did you sign this?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to put any more questions to you with

10     regard to this.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

12     make it possible for us to see once again 99 from the 92 ter list --

13     65 ter list.  We want to have an aerial image of Mala Krusa, and that

14     will be the end of my cross.  So it is number 99 from the 65 ter list.

15             It's an aerial image of Mala Krusa.  That's right.

16        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, could you please tell me whether you know when this

17     picture was taken?

18        A.   No, I don't know.  Late.  At the time, there were not something

19     here which I see in the picture, like vegetation, for instance.

20        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, can you tell me whether you know what year this

21     picture was taken?  Do you know?

22        A.   No, I cannot tell you that.

23        Q.   Mr. Ramadani, could you tell me -- or, rather, could you mark the

24     houses of your Roma neighbours.  And you did say that there were two

25     families.  You spoke of the Gashi family.  I'm not going to ask you

Page 1170

 1     anything else in relation to that, and could you indicate to us where the

 2     Serb houses were.  On this picture, can one see that or not?  Just tell

 3     me that.

 4        A.   The Roma houses cannot be seen here.  These houses cannot be seen

 5     on this picture.  Yes, for the Serb houses, I can tell you that.

 6             Should I mark with the pencil?

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

 8     assist the witness so that he could indicate where the Serb houses are on

 9     this picture.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the house of Dimitrije

11     Nikolic.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The house with the circle?  Could you please put number 1 there,

14     number 1 by that circle, please.

15        A.   Yes, Dimitrije house was here.  Here was the house -- here was

16     the house of Miljenka.  Here was the house of Dusani, of Misic, of Seka,

17     of Poshkits [phoen].  This was the house of Spiro.  This were the houses

18     of Nikolic.

19        Q.   I did not see you mark the Nikolic houses.

20        A.   Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Milenko, Nikolic Dusani, Nikolic --

21        Q.   Could you please mark those houses?  Could you mark them, please?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  Nikolic Milenki, Nikolic Dimitrije, Nikolic Dusani,

23     Nikolic Milos, Nikolic Seka, Nikolic Bosko, Jovca.

24        Q.   Could I ask you something else.  This house without a roof on the

25     far right by the field, to the south, I mean, do you know whose house

Page 1171

 1     this is?  It's standing out there on its own, on the right.

 2        A.   Just a moment, please.  This house was Petkovic's house.

 3        Q.   Petkovic house, that's right.  Yes.  Ranko Petkovic.

 4        A.   These houses were burned.  This picture was taken later.  So

 5     these were the houses you asked me for.  [Microphone not activated] was

 6     the house of Djika.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.  Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.

 8             I have to tell you that my learned friend Mr. Stamp when this

 9     aerial image was being admitted into evidence said that this picture was

10     taken in the summer of 1999.  I cannot believe or disbelieve him.  It was

11     simply said, and I can only accept that.

12             What about the rest of the houses that you didn't mark?  Are they

13     mostly Albanian houses?  That would be my first question, because you

14     already marked the Serb houses.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You said that you found ashes there when you returned, and how do

17     you explain the fact that this picture shows that all the houses look

18     very nice and that they all have roofs and they don't seem burned,

19     torched in any way?  At least that's the way they look from here.  You

20     showed the Serb houses, and they have in roofs.

21             My question is not addressed to you now as far as the Serb houses

22     are concerned.  My question to you is -- may I please finish,

23     Mr. Ramadani.  You said that the houses were turned into ashes.  That's

24     what you said literally, and we see that the houses are intact here.

25     They have roofs.  Could you just give me your comment with regard to

Page 1172

 1     that, and that will be my last question for you.

 2        A.   These houses were burnt down, but they were repaired later.  This

 3     house here -- this house here was the house of my brother.  It was

 4     totally burnt down.  Now it has been repaired.  This picture was taken

 5     later.  This house here was also repaired later, so these houses were

 6     repaired, as you tell you.  This is what happened with this house too.

 7     It was destroyed and later repair.  This one here was also repaired

 8     later, this one too.

 9             This one here was also rebuilt after being burnt down.  So all

10     these houses were burnt down without roofs, and then they were rebuilt.

11             This picture was not taken then.  It was taken later, after the

12     houses were rebuilt.  This house here, for instance, was rebuilt later

13     too.  I have put dates on which these houses were rebuilt.  I have all

14     these documents.  I have not taken these documents with me.  This house

15     here, for instance, was already rebuilt.  The same thing happened with

16     this one too.  All these houses were destroyed, were burnt down and were

17     then rebuilt later after the war.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ramadani, for having answered all my questions.  I

19     do appreciate that.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the Trial

21     Chamber to have this marked photograph admitted into evidence.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Ramadani, I have a problem -- I beg your

23     pardon.  Mr. Djordjevic, I have a problem.  You started by having the

24     witness mark Serb houses.  As his evidence progressed, he also marked a

25     number of houses which he said were burned and had been rebuilt.  So we

Page 1173

 1     have now both Serb and Albanian houses marked.  Is that what you're

 2     wanting?

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as Defence counsel,

 4     for the sake of objectivity, I have to say that I would agree with the

 5     witness would mark with a different colour the Albanian houses that had

 6     allegedly been burnt and then repaired.  That why it's not logical when

 7     we read the transcript.  This house was also burnt down and was rebuilt

 8     after the war.  Those are his words.  I agree that the witness could use

 9     a different coloured pen to mark all the other things that he was

10     referring to, and then could we have it admitted into evidence so that it

11     would all become clear.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I would ask the court officer to clear the

13     markings, if you would.  Thank you.

14             Mr. Ramadani, with your pen, would you please put a circle around

15     the houses that were occupied by Serb families in March 1999.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that.  Now I'll ask the court

18     officer to give you a red marking pen.  Now could you mark the houses

19     that you can see that were burned down and then rebuilt.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  It seems we have a problem, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Not so far.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Okay.  Okay.  Now it's okay.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]  these ones cannot be seen

Page 1174

 1     very well, but one should be here, the other one here.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender what the

 3     witness has marked.  Could it please be admitted into evidence?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  For the transcript, the witness has marked in blue

 5     with circles the houses occupied by Serb families and is circling in red,

 6     and is still doing it, houses which he says were burned and then have

 7     been rebuilt.

 8             Thank you very much, Mr. Ramadani.

 9             That marked photograph will now be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D30, Your Honours.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that we take the break

12     now before the Prosecutor re-examines, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.

14             Ms. Nilsen, can you indicate how long you would like -- expect to

15     be in re-examination?

16             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honour --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honour, the Prosecution doesn't have any

19     re-examination questions.  I would just like for the record to clarify

20     this picture so it's -- the date is correct.  It was said the 12th of

21     February by Mr. Stamp, that it was taken in 1999 by ICTY investigator.  I

22     am afraid that's not correct.  I think the right date would be 6th of

23     September, 2001, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that may need to be a matter of evidence if

25     there's some dispute about it.  Our present evidence is that this

Page 1175

 1     photograph shows houses that were destroyed by fire and rebuilt, and that

 2     can't have been in the date originally indicated.  If you want to lead

 3     evidence about the actual date of the photograph, that can be done.

 4             MS. NILSEN:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, I did stop you when you were wanting to

 6     mention -- Ms. Nilsen.  I did stop you when you were wanting to mention

 7     during cross-examination evidence given by the witness in another trial.

 8     That was a matter -- I stopped you then because it could have been a

 9     coaching of the witness.  If it's a matter that you wish to pursue and

10     have recorded, it's a matter you can put to the witness now in

11     re-examination.

12             MS. NILSEN:  Well, thank you, Your Honour, but I will not have

13     any questions.  Thank you.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Ramadani, that concludes the questions for

16     you.  The Chamber would like to thank you for your assistance here and

17     the trouble you've taken to come to The Hague to help.  We will give

18     attention to your evidence in due course when we hear the other

19     witnesses.  So you may now go with the court officer who will show you

20     out, and you are free to go back to your home and your ordinary

21     activities, and you go with our thanks.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to the

24     photograph and when the photograph was taken -- well, we won't be needing

25     the witness any more definitely.

Page 1176

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  You can wait, Mr. Djordjevic, yes.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to express my

 3     concern on account of this.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Sorry, Mr. Djordjevic.  What I said was if you

 5     would wait, the witness can be shown out, so the court officer will show

 6     the witness out.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, Mr. Djordjevic.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  On

11     behalf of the Defence, I wish to express my concern over the date when

12     this photograph had been taken.  What my learned friend Ms. Nilsen said

13     subsequently and what Mr. Stamp said previously make the Defence wonder

14     seriously when this photograph was taken, and I assume that this is a

15     very important matter for all the parties in these proceedings.

16     Therefore, I would ask that the OTP proffer additional proof as to when

17     this photograph was actually taken, who took it, on what date, under what

18     conditions.  Now it seems to be in dispute.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber has already indicated, Mr. Djordjevic,

20     that if there's an issue about the date of this photograph that it should

21     be the subject of further evidence from the Prosecution.  At the moment,

22     it's agreed that it is a photograph of the village.  The only evidence we

23     have is that this photograph was taken after houses were rebuilt, and

24     just when that was, the Chamber does not know.

25             Now, it may be that it's a matter that after discussion between

Page 1177

 1     counsel for the Prosecution and the Defence that it can be agreed, or it

 2     may be that the Prosecution will need to prove the date of the

 3     photograph.  That, we'll leave to be resolved, but we quite agree with

 4     you, Mr. Djordjevic, that it appears on the face of it not to be a

 5     photograph taken at about the time of March 1999.

 6             The Chamber would mention one or two other matters flowing from

 7     the experience with witness of this week.  All counsel will be aware that

 8     it is important for the progress of this trial that we don't lose time

 9     unnecessarily, and it's, of course, in the interests of the Tribunal to

10     conclude this trial as efficiently and quickly as we can, and it's very

11     much in the interests of the accused that the trial be concluded as

12     quickly as can be.

13             That being the case, the Chamber is of the view that it would be

14     desirable for us to introduce a procedural requirement similar to that

15     which we understand applied in the Milutinovic trial, which is that there

16     always be at least one reserve witness ready and able to be called in

17     case of illness or some other unexpected event which means that the

18     anticipated witness cannot be called.

19             As counsel will be aware, a witness is ill this week.  That is a

20     thing that can happen during a trial.  What the Chamber wants to ensure

21     is that should something like that occur in future, there will be another

22     witness present in The Hague and ready to be called who can be

23     substituted.

24             Now, that not only means that the Prosecution will need to be

25     watching and have always one further witness ready; it also means that

Page 1178

 1     the Defence in its preparation for cross-examination will need to be

 2     working one further witness ahead, and in that way, then, if something

 3     unexpected happens, it can be illness or it can be transport delay, these

 4     are problems -- a number of things can mean that an expected witness is

 5     not here, what the Chamber anticipates should happen in the future should

 6     something like that occur, that a further witness will be here, able to

 7     be called by the Prosecution and able to be cross-examined by the Defence

 8     so that we do not lose unnecessary days.  And if the Chamber can indicate

 9     that that procedure should be now followed by both Prosecution and

10     Defence, and we hope that we don't have to make use of that additional

11     reserve witness often, but the witness will always be there and both

12     sides ready.

13             We indicated yesterday that we will deal not with the ill witness

14     but with the evidence in chief of the witness beyond the ill witness

15     tomorrow, and we will then expect to commence cross-examination of that

16     witness first thing on Friday morning, which is 9.00 on Friday, and that

17     will be our programme.  If that witness finishes evidence on Friday, it

18     may be that the witness who is presently ill will by then be able to be

19     called, or it may be that that witness will have to come next week.

20             The Chamber would like record its appreciation, particularly to

21     the interpreters, who were able last night to rearrange their affairs to

22     be able to sit this morning to enable us to complete the evidence of this

23     present witness who has just left, which has minimised, then, the time

24     that we will lose in the course of this week.

25             We now will adjourn if there are no other procedural matters, and

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 1     we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 to hear the evidence in chief,

 2     and we will look forward to seeing you then.

 3             We adjourn now.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.39 a.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day

 6                           of February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.