Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1727

 1                           Tuesday, 3 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 3.48

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made at the beginning of your

 9     evidence to tell the truth still applies, of course.

10             Mr. Stamp, you were re-examining.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

12                           WITNESS:  CASLAV GOLUBOVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Golubovic.  Yesterday in answer to some

16     questions you said that certain documents you were shown indicate that

17     the Minister Stojiljkovic had appointed one Petric to be chief of the

18     Pristina SUP; Janijicevic to be chief of the SUP Kosovska Mitrovica; and

19     another Gavranic, another person by the name of Gavranic to be chief of

20     the SUP in Gnjilane.  Do you know to whom these SUP chiefs in Kosovo

21     reported up the chain of command?

22        A.   I don't know who they reported to, probably to the staff;

23     however, not only they but the others too, the existing chiefs of

24     secretariats reported to the ministry in Belgrade.

25        Q.   Well, I'm not sure if I understand your answer.  You're saying

Page 1728

 1     that they probably reported to the staff and then you go on to say that

 2     the existing chiefs reported to the ministry in Belgrade or is that you

 3     do not know to who they reported?

 4        A.   I'm talking about the existing organisational structure.  All the

 5     chiefs reported to the chief of the public security and the minister.  As

 6     the minister appointed them, they reported to the minister; but as they

 7     were working in Kosovo, they most probably reported or were assigned

 8     certain tasks and responsibilities.  Depending on the territory in which

 9     they were active, they reported to the staff in Kosovo.

10        Q.   The format or the means in which they -- by which they reported

11     to the chief of the public security?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   Very well.

14        A.   For those in Kosovo, I don't know.

15             MR. STAMP:  Could we bring up the document that was used

16     yesterday, it has the number D0020357, and it is the rules on the

17     internal organisation of the Ministry of Interior.  If we could go to

18     Article 13 thereof, and if we could do that in the B/C/S version as well.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it on the monitor, on

20     the screen.

21             MR. STAMP:  If we could go to the next page.  The article starts

22     by reading -- by going:  "The following organisational units shall be

23     established at the Ministry headquarters ..."

24             And if we could move to the next page in B/C/S, you will see them

25     listed.

Page 1729

 1        Q.   They are referred to as administrations.  Did these

 2     administrations have heads or chiefs of administration?

 3        A.   They did.  Heading each administration there was a leader, a

 4     chief, a head.

 5        Q.   And in terms of the organisational structure of the public

 6     service or the public security department, how did they -- or where did

 7     the chiefs of these administrations stand in relation to the chief of the

 8     RJB?

 9        A.   They were subordinated to him.  The chief of the department was

10     in charge of all those administrations; and therefore, he was superior to

11     all those chiefs.  When talking about the administration for crime

12     prevention or the administration for traffic police, they were in that

13     respect independent when working in that particular area.

14        Q.   Article 14 deals with the responsibilities of the crime

15     prevention administration.  Who in 1999 was the head of the crime

16     prevention administration?

17        A.   I think General Ilic was the head.

18        Q.   That's General Dragan Ilic?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to Article 15.  It deals with the

21     police administration.

22        Q.   Who was in charge of the police administration in 1999?

23        A.   To the best of my recollection, I know that there was some

24     changes there.  Now I'm not sure whether it was Obrad Stevanovic or

25     General Simic.  I can't be quite sure.

Page 1730

 1        Q.   General Obrad Stefanovic was also an assistant minister?

 2        A.   Yes, but for a while he was also a head of the police

 3     administration.  And General Simic was also appointed to that position

 4     for a while in 1999, but I can't be quite certain --

 5        Q.   Very well.

 6        A.   -- I can't remember.

 7        Q.   The police administration also had responsibilities for the

 8     special police units; do you recall that?

 9        A.   It was -- I don't know about the special units, but for separate

10     police units, the logistics, the preparations within the framework of the

11     plan of national defence.

12        Q.   Okay.  If you could look at the end of Article 15, five

13     paragraphs up from the end of Article 15.

14             MR. STAMP:  I think we need to go to the next page.

15        Q.   You see it says here that:  "The Administration shall comprise:

16     The Police Department, the Department For Public Law and Order, the

17     Department for Special Police Units and the Reserve ..."

18             Do you recall that being the situation in 1999?

19        A.   As soon as there were special police units within the framework

20     of the secretariat.  That is probably what the situation was in 1999 as

21     well.

22             MR. STAMP:  If we could look quickly at Article 17, that's

23     operation centre.  I don't know if we need to go to it.

24        Q.   But can I ask you:  Do you recall who was the head of the

25     operations centre in the RJB in 1999?

Page 1731

 1        A.   I cannot remember.  I know who was in charge before that, but for

 2     1999 I don't know.  I can't remember.  Because as chief of the

 3     secretariat and other chiefs of secretariats, only exceptionally did we

 4     have contact with them.  They were special units according to this

 5     organisational structure so that the operations centre is something I

 6     don't know who was in charge of.  I know before that it was

 7     General Trujic [phoen], but as for 1999 I can't remember.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Article 18 deals with the border police

 9     administration.  I just want to ask you, since you have been asked some

10     questions about the border police and your SUP covered areas that

11     bordered Romania, do you know who the head of the border police

12     administration was in 1999?

13        A.   I don't know the name.  These people changed quite frequently.  I

14     cannot give you a definite answer because the personnel changed.  Maybe

15     you can assist me and then I can perhaps recall the name.

16        Q.   Do you remember if it's General Petar Dojkovic [phoen]?

17        A.   No, I don't know.  The name is not familiar.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think it's not in order to

20     remind the witness.  The witness said that he can't remember and that he

21     doesn't know.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

23             MR. STAMP:  Actually, I -- the witness asked to be reminded, and

24     I -- I misread a signal from my friend.  I thought the name of who was

25     the head of that department in 1999 was not in issue, was not a matter in

Page 1732

 1     which there was challenge if I put it to the witness, but I see that I

 2     misread the situation.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, what's been done has been done.  Carry on

 4     now, Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:

 6        Q.   Finally in this regard, Witness, Articles 23 and 24 deals with

 7     the administrations for joint affairs of the ministry and board and

 8     lodgings administration.  Do you recall who was the head of that -- of

 9     those two administrations.

10        A.   Heading the -- that administration, I think it was

11     General Zekovic, for joint affairs, and this included lodgings and other

12     matters.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was he also an assistant minister?

14        A.   I think that all these heads of administrations had the rank of

15     assistant ministers.  I'm not familiar with the decisions appointing

16     them, but I assume that that is the rank they had.

17        Q.   I asked you a question yesterday, and I'm not sure if we got a

18     clear answer.  Can I ask you this question in respect to the relationship

19     between Mr. Djordjevic and Mr. Stojiljkovic:  Do you know of any

20     situation in which Mr. Djordjevic did not obey an order given to him by

21     Mr. Stojiljkovic?

22        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there --

23        Q.   Very well.

24        A.   -- I wasn't present there to be able to tell you.

25        Q.   What happened to Mr. Stojiljkovic?  Is he alive or dead?

Page 1733

 1        A.   He committed suicide in 2001 or 2002, I don't know.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  I don't think I

 3     have anything -- well, before I do that, may I just -- nothing further

 4     for the witness, Your Honour.

 5             I'm reminded there always being something I forgot that I should

 6     seek leave to tender the laws -- the law of -- yes, it was used yesterday

 7     by Defence and Your Honour had indicated that they were interested in

 8     1 to 10.  I think having regard to the indictment which names certain

 9     people as members of the JCE, some of whose names he has called in

10     relation to some of these areas I've asked about -- I think the remaining

11     sections, about 30, should go in.

12             But in the circumstances I think it probably would be more

13     practical if the entire document went in as I believe as other witnesses

14     come to testify in the course of this case reference will be made to

15     various parts of the document.  I did discuss it with the Defence, and I

16     don't think they object to the whole document going in although, of

17     course, I understand, Your Honours, would only be interested at least for

18     the time being in what the witness has commented about.  Thank you very

19     much, Your Honours.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE PARKER:  We will then receive the whole of the document.

22     Is it to be a Defence or a Prosecution exhibit?  Have you resolved that

23     between you, Mr. Stamp?

24             MR. STAMP:  I'm afraid that -- that issue escaped us.  It could

25     be a Prosecution exhibit.  I don't think it matters.

Page 1734

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, as you're on your feet, it will be a

 2     Prosecution exhibit, Mr. Stamp.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00357, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  You may be able to assist us further,

 9     Mr. Golubovic, about the events of the 5th, 6th, and 7th of April because

10     we're not entirely clear about some matters.

11             The truck, as you'd understand it, had been found in the river on

12     the 5th of April, 1999; is that correct?

13        A.   That is the information I had.  I wasn't there on the 5th or the

14     4th or the 6th until the evening, so that is the information that I

15     received.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  And you first heard about it at about 6.30 in the

17     evening of the 6th of April?

18        A.   Yes.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  By that time, as you understood it, the truck had

20     been partly eased out of the water, the refrigerated part opened, and it

21     had been seen that there were some bodies in the truck?

22        A.   That is the information I received.  The refrigerator truck was

23     hauled out around midday, the gates were opened.  When they saw the

24     bodies, they closed the gates immediately.  And the investigating judge

25     and the prosecutor left the scene, and the police just secured the

Page 1735

 1     refrigerator truck physically.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I think you said that it had been estimated

 3     at that time there was some 20 or 30 bodies in the truck.  That's what

 4     you were told --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  And these were thought to be Albanian?

 7        A.   Yes.  According to the initial viewing and the information later,

 8     so when they were seen, it was thought that they were Albanians.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, I think you mentioned that was in part

10     because of the clothing that were on the bodies?

11        A.   Partly on the basis of the clothing; and secondly, on the basis

12     of the inscription on the truck which was visible.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It was from a town in Kosovo; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  And it was not until the next day that you learnt,

16     I gather, that in fact there were many more bodies than 20 or 30?

17        A.   It wasn't the next day.  One could say it was the next day, but

18     it was during the night after a certain period of time, maybe it was

19     11.00 or 12.00, that is, midnight, and then in the early morning.  And

20     even then the exact number could not be established.  As far as I know

21     and as I was told, the exact number was established on the 7th when those

22     bodies were moved from the refrigerator truck to another truck.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Were these male bodies?

24        A.   We were told that there were men and women, not just male but

25     also female bodies.

Page 1736

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  And they were in what might be called Albanian

 2     clothing; is that the position?

 3        A.   The people who saw them, that is what they concluded, mainly on

 4     the basis of the clothing worn by women because they aware "dimijas" as

 5     we call them, even though those kind of pantaloons are worn by Romanis

 6     and Serbs as well down there in the south but that was one of the

 7     indicators pointing to the fact that they were Albanians, even though

 8     such clothing is worn by gypsies as well and also elderly Serb women

 9     living in Kosovo.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Were there any children, any bodies of children?

11        A.   I think that there was mention of one or more children, anyway,

12     younger people.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Originally you thought from what you were told or

14     originally others had thought this was a traffic accident; is that

15     correct.

16        A.   Yes, that was what I was told at the time, that that was what

17     they had thought the previous day.  Sometime the previous day, prior to

18     the 5th, something to the effect that there had been a traffic accident,

19     because the road in that area skirts the river Danube.  There was a

20     dangerous bend in that road where traffic accidents were frequent.  The

21     vehicles involved would skid off the road and down into the river and

22     that's where they were looking for it.  That was probably the reason that

23     led them to believe there had been a traffic accident and that the

24     refrigerator truck had simply slid off the road and down into the river.

25             Later on I was able to draw my own inference.  I was told that on

Page 1737

 1     that day the chief over in Kladovo, I think, had made sure that there

 2     were a number of trucks on their way to help with the bodies that were

 3     there as a result of that traffic accident.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  What of the driver of the truck?  What did you

 5     learn about him?

 6        A.   As far as I know, they said that there was a diver who inspected

 7     the area and that the driver was not found because one the refrigerator

 8     truck had been hauled out of the water there was no driver in the cabin.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  The road where this occurred skirting along the

10     edge of the Danube, is that a road that would normally be used travelling

11     from the area of Kosovo?

12        A.   No, rarely if ever.  Probably while the relations were different

13     it was still being used for bringing supplies into the area or from that

14     area into Kosovo, maybe it was used for that purpose.  The road was much

15     used by Romanians as well crossing the Djerdap.  It was used for

16     travelling and for trade purposes not only by people from that area but

17     also from other areas, such as Belgrade, Kosovo, Montenegro, and so on

18     and so forth, this being the shortest route between the south of Serbia

19     and Romania.

20             There is a border crossing called Centralija that was a border

21     crossing to Romania, and the same thing applied the other way around from

22     Romania into Serbia.

23             At the time it was a much travelled area.  It was also the

24     shortest route connecting Romania and Bulgaria.  Nearby, Negotin is

25     another border crossing, the one to Bulgaria.  Therefore, this was

Page 1738

 1     Europe's shortest route across Romania on to Bulgaria and then on to

 2     Greece and Turkey.  Therefore, it was a road that was frequently used by

 3     everyone, not only the people who lived locally.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  It wasn't, though, the normal road from Kosovo to,

 5     say, Belgrade, was it?

 6        A.   Well, it wasn't marked that way on the maps.  It wasn't marked as

 7     a convenient route to Europe either, not specifically.  One had to take

 8     various roads in order to reach this one.  There is one across Pozarevac

 9     through Velika Gradiska and then straight onto Kladovo.  There is another

10     route that joins up with this one the one from Bor, Zajecar-Bor-Nis, and

11     so on and so forth.  There is a whole network of roads there channelling

12     many of these routes into the single one that led on further south.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Now, I understand from your evidence

14     you were told that when the refrigerator truck door was opened and bodies

15     were found, that the public prosecutor and the investigating judge were

16     there at the time; is that correct?

17        A.   Correct, that's what I was told.  As soon as it was opened, I

18     realised there were bodies inside so the door was shut.  The public

19     prosecutor and the investigating judge were there.  They saw this too.

20     The door was shut, and they stopped the on-site investigation that had

21     been in progress.  You must have seen photographs of that refrigerator

22     truck that had been hauled out partly from the Danube the previous day.

23     The Kladovo department forensic technician probably took photographs, and

24     then they put a stop to this on-site investigation, once the judicial

25     officials had stopped it.  So this was an end of the cooperation between

Page 1739

 1     the police and the judicial organs.  All that remains are the recorded

 2     images.  I saw some of those in the media and the press and I saw some of

 3     those during the Milosevic trial here, but all of this was done before

 4     the on-site investigation was terminated.  And that was done as soon as

 5     they had realised that there were bodies involved.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  So I take it then that the public prosecutor and

 7     the investigating judge were there to look into what was thought to be a

 8     traffic accident of a truck entering the river?

 9        A.   They didn't know themselves until the refrigerator truck was

10     opened.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The presence of the bodies, from what you have

12     said, made this a responsibility of the district prosecutor and the

13     district investigating judge; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  Under the Law on Criminal Procedure of Serbia, this would

15     have been the case.  The district court has powers up to a certain level.

16     This can be expressed in monetary terms, too, up to a certain value, and

17     then there is a range of sentences in these cases it would have been a

18     smaller sentence and this would have been something for the district

19     bodies or municipal bodies to deal with.  When larger numbers are

20     involved or more serious accidents, then it would have been up to the

21     district prosecutor and the district court because the sentences imposed

22     in cases such as these are, as a rule, more severe or higher.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  You mentioned that they had been notified after

24     the bodies were found.  Do you know who did that, who notified them?

25        A.   Your Honour, do you mean the district prosecutor?

Page 1740

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  The district prosecutor and the district

 2     investigating judge.

 3        A.   It was normal procedure for them to be informed by the municipal

 4     bodies, although, based on what I was told at the time, they had been

 5     informed by the municipal prosecutor and the municipal investigating

 6     judge, in addition to which they had been informed by whichever unit of

 7     the Ministry of Internal Affairs happened to be on duty at the time.  So

 8     they were informed through two different channels, the municipal,

 9     judicial channels, and the police - and when I say the police I mean the

10     Kladovo police.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you aware that either the district prosecutor

12     or the district investigating judge attended at the scene?

13        A.   No, I don't think so.  When I was there they never showed up, and

14     I don't think they showed up the next day either.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, you telephoned General Djordjevic; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  And you told him what had been reported to you at

19     that stage?

20        A.   Indeed.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  And that was the first telephone conversation you

22     had with him?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Was it during this conversation that he said he

25     would ring you back in 10 or 15 minutes?

Page 1741

 1        A.   That's right.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  When he rang you back, can you tell us what it was

 3     that he said?

 4        A.   Roughly speaking, he told me that we should bury the bodies.  The

 5     number being bandied about was still between 20 and 30.  He said we

 6     should bury those, that this was an order from the minister.  That was

 7     the basic thing that was said and the conclusion that I drew based on

 8     that conversation.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Did he say where they were to be buried?

10        A.   No.  In Kladovo most probably.  We were in Kladovo so that was

11     the implication, that we should deal with it in the area.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  And you arranged then with -- I think you said it

13     was Vukasin Sperlic - for the removal and burial of the bodies?

14        A.   We were in his office.  I wasn't the only person present nor was

15     he.  There were other people who were there, such as the prosecutor and

16     the investigating judge.  They were also there.  They left the office at

17     one point but there must have been five or six of us there in the office.

18     We received this order and we started discussing how we should go about

19     this, how we should carry out the task.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  And this would have been somewhere between 9.00

21     and 10.00 at night on the 6th of April; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, about 9.00 I think.  The conversation took place just before

23     9.00, so it was around that time.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  And where were the bodies to be buried?

25        A.   I'm not particularly familiar with the area, but there were

Page 1742

 1     different proposals, one of those being the local cemetery, but the local

 2     cemetery was not big enough to hold those bodies.  Then someone came up

 3     with a different location, I don't remember who proposed what precisely

 4     but there were several proposals, and then we tried to narrow this down

 5     in order to find the best place to do this.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  And this had to be done while it was still dark I

 7     gather because of your concern at --

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  -- bombing and the Romanians?

10        A.   Yes, during that night.  I do apologise, but I have to say this

11     again.  This is on the Danube and the border is down the middle of the

12     Danube between Serbia and Romania; on the other side of the border is

13     Orsava, a place in Romania, hosting a unit of Romania's fleet, a unit of

14     their military.  This is an open area with a clear line of sight.  It is

15     easy to see both riverbanks from that area.  This was an open area, so

16     that was one of the reasons this was done that night under the cover of

17     the dark so to speak, and NATO planes were flying overhead not dropping

18     any bombs at the time, but we could hear them fly overhead.  That was the

19     situation.  This had to be done at night and not by daylight.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, how long did you stay there that night, the

21     6th of April, on the morning of the 7th?  Are you able to say when you

22     left?

23        A.   I left with Toma Miladinovic.  I drove a car as well because my

24     driver had taken off previously to take the refrigerator truck back to

25     Belgrade and I know I was at work sometime past 7.00.  It takes about one

Page 1743

 1     hour to reach Bor from Kladovo, perhaps even over an hour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  You spoke to General Djordjevic 9.00 or later in

 3     the evening, 9.00 or later.  When was it that you left there?

 4        A.   We left Kladovo sometime when those who were in charge of getting

 5     blankets and everything else as well as a new truck got there.  Once they

 6     got in touch with us to say that all these items had been secured, we

 7     left, each in our own vehicles and with our own tasks.  This may have

 8     been sometime around half past 9.00 or 10.00, maybe between 10.00 and

 9     11.00.  It wasn't much later, not much later after the agreement.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  So you, in effect, left the area, leaving the task

11     of burying the bodies in the hands of the people that you had designated

12     to deal with that?

13        A.   No.  We left Kladovo, those people and I and all those of us who

14     were present went to a place near the refrigerator truck.  It wasn't that

15     I left.  Nothing was done until we got to Tekija and Tekija is the place

16     where the refrigerator truck was.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  And can you say when you reached Tekija?

18        A.   Well, as I said, as soon as we left Kladovo, about 10.00 that

19     evening.  The distance to Kladovo is 12 kilometres.  If you drive there,

20     it takes about 15 to 20 minutes.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  And it was when you were at Tekija that it became

22     apparent that you wouldn't be able to remove all the bodies from the

23     truck that night; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, when they first opened the refrigerator truck and started

25     preparing to pull the bodies out of the truck and take them to another

Page 1744

 1     truck that was waiting on the road, they realised that this could hardly

 2     be done the same night.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  You spoke to the -- General Djordjevic again that

 5     night by telephone?

 6        A.   I spoke to him three or four times from Tekija that night.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  And that's when in the course of those

 8     conversations you made it clear to him that it wasn't possible to remove

 9     all the bodies that night and bury them?

10        A.   Yes.  This was already the morning of the 7th, early morning.  By

11     this time about 30 bodies had been carried across; that's what our

12     information indicated.  It was clear that there was an even greater

13     number of bodies still within the refrigerator truck.  I got in touch

14     with General Djordjevic; we talked.  I told him that we couldn't do this.

15             We didn't have a forensic pathologist, for example, who was

16     present on the scene in order to carry out post mortems or attempt an

17     identification or indeed attempt to establish the cause of death.  I made

18     it clear we couldn't finish the job that night.  After some time General

19     Djordjevic accepted this, and we stopped short of finishing the job.  It

20     was already morning by this time.  I don't know when exactly the truck

21     left, but it must have been about 5.00 a.m., a bit later or a bit

22     earlier, but it was about 5.00 a.m. the truck left for Belgrade.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Which -- is this a truck that you had secured from

24     Kladovo?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1745

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  And who was driving that truck?

 2        A.   The driver from the original company that we got the truck from

 3     was not there; therefore, my own driver who had driven me to Kladovo,

 4     Ljubinko Stojanovic [as interpreted], drove it.  I didn't quite order

 5     him, but I asked him if he would be willing to drive the truck and he

 6     said yes.  He said yes and then he drove the truck.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I take it during that night you didn't have either

 8     the municipal or the district prosecutor or investigating judge at

 9     Tekija?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  And you didn't have any forensic assistance?

12        A.   None.  That was the reason we wanted to take the bodies somewhere

13     where they could be examined by a pathologist, not just one but a team of

14     pathologists; and that meant Nis or Belgrade because down in the area

15     covered by the secretariat there wasn't a single pathologist available to

16     us or indeed any other type of forensic assistance.  Even if we had

17     buried the bodies right there, we would have had to do so most probably

18     without first processing the bodies.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  When you were at Kladovo before you drove to

20     Tekija you understood there was some 20 or 30 bodies in the truck?

21        A.   That's right.  That was the information I had, and the

22     information came from the people who had opened the door during that day,

23     had a look, and saw what they saw.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Why did you set about organising for the burial of

25     those bodies that night at Kladovo?

Page 1746

 1        A.   Your Honour, I didn't say we actually started the burial.  All we

 2     did over in Kladovo was secured some blankets that we might then use to

 3     carry the bodies over from the refrigerator truck to the truck that was

 4     waiting on the road.  Nothing else was done in Kladovo and no other

 5     actions were initiated.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  But you discussed where they would be buried?

 7        A.   Yes, we were discussing, there were several of us there, seven or

 8     eight people present.  The people from Kladovo were supposed to secure

 9     the scene and make all these things available to us.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I -- what I'm not clear about then is why,

11     if you had no pathologist and no judge, either municipal or district, and

12     no prosecutor, you would have thought of burying these bodies that night?

13        A.   Well, the reason was we had to move the refrigerator truck

14     further off the road, because the people who were near the refrigerator

15     truck said that there was already a stench spreading of decomposing

16     bodies.  It couldn't just stay like that without being dealt with, so

17     that was the reason for us trying to deal with this as quickly as

18     possible.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that's why you would have moved bodies from

20     the truck to another truck; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, the refrigerator truck could no longer be operated or used.

22     It had partly been pulled out of the river and it couldn't be started,

23     the engine couldn't be started.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  But having moved the trucks from the refrigerator

25     truck to the other truck, why would you then think to immediately bury

Page 1747

 1     them that night?

 2        A.   When we first started work, it was said that we should bury the

 3     bodies that night.  I told you about the minister's order that was

 4     mentioned in that conversation, and the order that we should do just

 5     that - I'm talking about the first conversation from Kladovo.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  You knew there were not the normal judicial and

 7     court authorities, and you knew there was not a pathologist and you were

 8     confronted with some 20 or 30 bodies in a refrigerator truck.  The idea

 9     that you would simply bury them is something that I'm not able to

10     understand as being a correct procedure to be followed.

11        A.   That's what the conditions were that prevailed at the time.

12     There was a state of war.  Most probably in a situation like that there

13     would have been no other solutions.  We didn't have the time to wait for

14     the proper procedure to be initiated for another day or two until the

15     bodies were secured.  There were all these reasons which meant we had to

16     do it straight away.  When we saw that, we insisted -- rather, I insisted

17     through General Djordjevic that this should be done elsewhere with due

18     professional and forensic care.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  You had managed -- or those doing the work had

20     managed to transfer some 30 bodies from the refrigerator truck to the

21     truck you'd got there from Kladovo; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  And that was the truck then that drove that night

24     to Belgrade?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1748

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  The problem you had then was that there were many

 2     more bodies than just 20 or 30?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  And you couldn't find another truck that evening;

 5     is that the position?

 6        A.   Yes.  There were none to go around because all the trucks owned

 7     by all the local companies had been mobilised by the army and Territorial

 8     Defence.  Therefore, I asked General Djordjevic for a truck from the

 9     ministry to be dispatched to the area so that we could transport the

10     remaining bodies.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, you said that the -- General Djordjevic said

12     it was an order from the minister that you should bury the bodies in

13     Kladovo; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, because after I had called him then some 15 or 20 minutes

15     later he called back and that is what he said, when he called me from

16     Belgrade in Kladovo.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  The statement you made Exhibit P352 at its end

18     said:  "I do not know if General Djordjevic consulted the minister of the

19     interior, who was then Vlajko Stojiljkovic, or if he consulted or

20     informed anyone else of the event concerning the refrigerator lorry

21     before issuing his instructions to me."

22        A.   I assumed, because he said he would call back later, that he

23     needed to consult someone, most probably, or to inform someone about the

24     event I had informed him about, as he was surprised hearing this from me,

25     I could hear that by the tone of his voice, that it was with surprise

Page 1749

 1     that he received the news.  And later on when he called, he said that it

 2     was an order from the minister.  So I assumed that he had consulted the

 3     minister because if he had made the decision then he would have probably

 4     told me straight away what to do.  I wouldn't have had to wait 15 or 20

 5     minutes to wait for him to tell me what to do.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Why then did you say that you did not know if he'd

 7     consulted the minister?

 8        A.   I said I didn't know because I wasn't present there, but when he

 9     told me what to do after a certain period of time he said that that was

10     the order of the minister.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  A couple of concerns about this aspect.  In the

13     statement, you make no mention of General Djordjevic saying it was an

14     order from the minister, and yet in your yesterday here you say that's

15     what the general told you.  Can you offer an explanation why you didn't

16     mention that in your statement?

17        A.   I think that I did mention it, Your Honour.  Now, whether it was

18     in the Milutinovic trial or the Milosevic trial, maybe not quite so

19     explicitly that the minister had ordered it but that the minister had

20     said that that is what we should do; and I had assumed he had consulted

21     the minister.  I did say that somewhere.  Maybe whoever compiled that

22     statement, I didn't pay attention, and maybe that is why I didn't notice

23     it; but in one of my testimonies I couldn't have said anything else

24     because that is the truth.  Now, in what form I expressed that is another

25     matter.  It was customary for us to refer to someone when something needs

Page 1750

 1     to be done, someone higher up.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  What was said in your statement is that:

 3             "Colonel-General Djordjevic phoned me back some 10 to 15 minutes

 4     later and instructed me that the bodies, which at that stage we believed

 5     numbered around 30 were to be removed from the refrigerator truck and

 6     buried in the area of Kladovo in the course of the night."

 7             Now, there's no suggestion there that he was conveying to you the

 8     order of the minister.

 9        A.   Possibly whoever was compiling the statement didn't ask me that

10     at the time.  Whoever wrote the statement didn't ask me that question.  I

11     did sign the statement.  Maybe he didn't think it was important.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  But it was very clear to you, was it, that the

13     general had said that this was an order from the minister?

14        A.   Yes, he said something to that effect at the end of that

15     conversation while I was in Kladovo.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  You accepted that as correct?

17        A.   I did accept it because my superior told me that, and he gave me

18     the order as to what I should do.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that brings me back then to the question why

20     you said expressly:  "I do not know if General Djordjevic consulted the

21     minister of the interior ..."

22        A.   I said that because they were always next to one another in the

23     same place in Belgrade during the war.  The headquarters where they were

24     then, I think it was in Majke Jevrosime Street.  That is where the office

25     of the minister and of General Djordjevic were situated and some other

Page 1751

 1     officers because they were not in the building of the ministry.  These

 2     were reserve wartime positions that they took up.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, you see, that tends to explain how he could

 4     have consulted the minister.  What you're saying, you accepted that he

 5     did consult the minister and was conveying to you the minister's order;

 6     and yet you say expressly:  "I do not know if General Djordjevic

 7     consulted the minister ..."

 8             Can you see the difficulty that I'm looking at?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  I said I don't know because I wasn't there, who -- I

10     didn't know who he consulted.  So I assumed, so it's my assumption, that

11     he consulted the minister because he told me to wait and he would call

12     back.  So he must have consulted someone and reached some agreement with

13     someone.  And the conclusion I drew, in view of the fact that under those

14     circumstances he was probably close to the minister.  Now, whether he

15     called him up by phone, but I assumed he consulted the minister.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  The understanding I have from what you've said is

17     that you were quite satisfied that it was the order of the minister when

18     the general told you that that was the case.

19        A.   Yes, I accepted that.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, if you accepted that, wouldn't you have said

21     in your statement that he had consulted the minister before giving you

22     instructions?

23        A.   I have said that I did say this in my testimony, that he had

24     consulted someone.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  Well, he had consulted someone, does that

Page 1752

 1     mean that you were not clear whether he consulted the minister?

 2        A.   Correct.  I wasn't present there so I don't know who he

 3     consulted, but I assumed that it was the minister.  I didn't hear it or

 4     see it, and that is why I assumed it and that is what I said.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  If I can remind you of the full sentence, I read

 6     it to you earlier:

 7             "I do not know if General Djordjevic consulted the minister of

 8     the interior, who was then Vlajko Stojiljkovic, or if he consulted or

 9     informed anyone else of the event concerning the refrigerator lorry

10     before issuing his instructions to me."

11             So are you now saying that you were satisfied that he had spoken

12     to the minister?

13        A.   After that I drew the conclusion that most probably he did.  What

14     I said is quite correct.  That is my statement.  I think he consulted

15     someone, I don't know who, because I was not there to see it, and I

16     assumed that it was with the minister.  He could have consulted someone

17     else.  This was my assumption.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  When -- what he told you is that he was giving you

19     the order of the minister; is that correct?

20        A.   When he rang up in Kladovo during our second conversation, his

21     first call-up from Belgrade, the first time he called.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  So it was the minister's order and not his order?

23        A.   Yes, to that effect, but he passed it on to me, so I don't know

24     how to explain this.  He passed on this to me and he referred to the

25     minister.  He said that the minister had said this just in the same way

Page 1753

 1     that I told the others who were present there that general had said such

 2     and such a thing.  So I also referred to him, to General Djordjevic when

 3     we were discussing what to do.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  When you gave your evidence in Milutinovic, I

 6     think your express reference was that he would -- he told me:

 7             "To stay in my office until after he'd consulted the minister or

 8     somebody else; and then he said that he'd be calling me back with further

 9     instructions."

10             Is that something that was said to you?

11        A.   Your Honour, I gave several statements, and I testified here

12     twice.  I cannot use the same words each time and repeat what I said the

13     first time and the second, but in substance that is the truth.  Now,

14     whether I put it in this way or in another way, in view of the situation

15     I was in at the time I may have said something else or my understanding

16     may have been different.  But the substance of it is that the

17     conversation flowed in that way.  The conversation didn't end in one

18     minute or two, it must have lasted five or six minutes, maybe longer,

19     both of these conversations; and then different words are used which may

20     be interpreted in a different way in one situation than in another.  So

21     so I had the same thing in mind and I said the same thing, but if I

22     didn't use the same words then that's another matter.  Even now I don't

23     think I can repeat the same words that I used in my statements and in

24     testifying in Milosevic or in the other trial; but the gist of it is the

25     same, maybe not in the same words.  In 1999, the words may have been

Page 1754

 1     different but the substance is the same.  So I cannot confirm each and

 2     every word used, especially not now, ten years later.

 3             I don't know, Your Honour, whether you have understood my

 4     explanation, but the gist of it is that I'm telling the truth but maybe

 5     in different words then and in different words now and different words

 6     may be used in the different statements but the substance is there.  If

 7     anyone present could confirm this, they may remember what I said because

 8     I wasn't alone.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll leave the exact words alone, but can you

10     tell us whether General Djordjevic mentioned the minister when you first

11     spoke to him and before he hung up, telling you to wait until he called

12     back or whether the general mentioned the minister when he rang back?

13        A.   When he rang back, not the first time -- neither did I mention

14     the minister nor did he, that is when I called him up from Kladovo, the

15     minister was not mentioned.  But during the conversation that we had when

16     he called back, this was mentioned.  The function of the minister, that

17     is quite certain.  Now, whether I interpreted that correctly, but the

18     minister as such was mentioned.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  And this was after General Djordjevic rang you

20     back when you were still at Kladovo?

21        A.   Yes, yes, in this second conversation, or rather, the first time

22     he actually called.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  And he gave you to understand then that he was

24     giving you the minister's order?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1755

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  That passage I've read to you twice from your

 2     statement concludes by you saying of General Djordjevic "...  I don't

 3     know if he consulted or informed anyone else before issuing his

 4     instructions to me."

 5             Now, "his" is General Djordjevic, it's not the minister.  Is

 6     there some simple explanation for that?

 7        A.   Your Honour, I stated and I'm stating once again, I couldn't know

 8     who General Djordjevic consulted in Belgrade, but in view of the fact

 9     that I waited for him to call back, I drew the conclusion that he had

10     consulted someone.  And from the conversation we had during this second

11     conversation, the minister was mentioned, and that was the conclusion I

12     made.  He may have consulted someone else or several people, I don't know

13     that, and that is why I said that I only assume that he had consulted the

14     minister.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Okay.  Well, I think we have gone over that very

16     carefully and got your full explanations now.

17             You did also say that when you spoke to the general during the

18     night of the 6th and the morning of the 7th in one of the conversations

19     he gave you some instructions about the refrigerated truck.  What did he

20     want done with that?

21        A.   He wanted the refrigerator truck to be destroyed.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Was that done?

23        A.   It was done several days later.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  And how was that done?

25        A.   I think that the refrigerator truck was transferred from Tekija

Page 1756

 1     to Kladovo to the work organisation Komunalac, the public utility company

 2     and that it was there for a day or two.  And after that it was driven to

 3     Petrovo Selo, set alight, and as it couldn't be destroyed like that, then

 4     explosives were used to destroy it.

 5             So this was several days after Kladovo, after Tekija.  Because

 6     when I went to Bor, I had no further contact nor did I inquire nor did

 7     anyone call me in connection with the destruction of that truck.  It was

 8     agreed that night in Tekija, and it was left to the people in Kladovo to

 9     do it.  Now, exactly what happened -- but my information is that it spent

10     about two days in that company and that afterwards it was transferred to

11     Petrovo Selo and destroyed there.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you understand why the general wanted the

13     truck destroyed?

14        A.   This can only be an assumption.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  You're saying he didn't tell you?

16        A.   He told me to destroy it, but why, I could only speculate about

17     that.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  And you left instructions then for that to be

19     done; is that it?

20        A.   Yes.  It was taken to Kladovo, it spent some time there, and

21     after conditions were -- made it possible, it was destroyed.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  You left those instructions without any other

23     special directions about the truck?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Simply, in general terms, that it should be destroyed.

25     Whether it should be set alight or blown up, I'm not an expert for these

Page 1757

 1     things, I didn't know.  I just told my subordinates that they should do

 2     it.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  This was a truck in which some perhaps 80 bodies

 4     had been found.  Wasn't that something that ought to have been the

 5     subject of official investigation by the examining -- by the prosecutor

 6     and the examining judge?

 7        A.   Most probably that should have been done had the situation been

 8     normal and normal conditions.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, Mr. Djurdjic, and Mr. Stamp, there have been

10     some matters as you've heard that have not been clear to the Chamber.  In

11     view of the matters we've asked, we would invite, first you,

12     Mr. Djurdjic, if there's any further question you would like to ask the

13     witness.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I shall

15     try to clear up even further, if possible, though you've done that

16     perfectly well, a couple of brief questions.

17                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Golubovic, am I right in saying that when

19     you were informed about the truck in the river that there was no driver

20     and that it didn't have the windshield?

21        A.   I don't remember that.  I wasn't informed about all the details,

22     but I was just informed in general.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right that when we are talking about the road

24     along the Danube that because of the sanctions that had been enforced on

25     Serbia and the FRY in 1991, and they lasted until 2001, that this road

Page 1758

 1     was very important for the transport of goods and that it was a busy road

 2     of goods going to all parts of Serbia and that Kosovo was also supplied

 3     with goods from Romania and Bulgaria along that route?

 4        A.   I said that it was used, that vehicles drove along that route,

 5     not only from Serbia but also most probably from Montenegro, from Kosovo,

 6     from Romania, Bulgaria, et cetera.  So it was frequently used.

 7        Q.   And am I also right in saying that you personally were not

 8     present and you didn't hear Minister Stojiljkovic tell General Djordjevic

 9     what he passed on to you, and that is why the statement you gave was in

10     the way it was?

11        A.   That is what I told Their Honours.  I wasn't present, I don't

12     know who he consulted, but I assume that in view of the time that elapsed

13     until he called me back that he had consulted someone.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

15     further questions.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

17             Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour, just one.

19                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

20        Q.   Earlier you were asked about the name of the driver of the truck

21     and that's at page 18, line 24 and the record indicates that you said

22     that the driver of the first truck, that is, your driver that you sent

23     with the truck with the bodies to Belgrade is Stojanovic, which I don't

24     think is what I heard.  So could you just please repeat the name of the

25     driver of the truck.

Page 1759

 1        A.   Ljubinko Ursuljanovic, not Stojanovic, you can find that in my

 2     statement as well.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

 6             [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  -- that that concludes the questions for you.  The

 9     Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague and

10     for the assistance you've been able to give over two days of evidence.

11     We're grateful for your attempts clearly to answer the questions that

12     have been put to you.  You may now of course return to your normal

13     activities and the -- when the court rises you will be able to leave and

14     the court officer will assist you.  So thank you indeed.

15             It's now 5.15, which is a convenient time for the first break.

16     We'll resume at 5.45.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19                           --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

21             MR. NEUNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, and everybody in and

22     around the courtroom.  The next witness is Mr. Radojkovic.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

Page 1760

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you please read aloud the -- what is written

 3     on the card that is given to you now, the affirmation.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  BOSKO RADOJKOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 9             I think Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.

10             Mr. Neuner.

11                           Examination by Mr. Neuner:

12        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14        Q.   Your name is Bosko Radojkovic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Radojkovic, you were born on the 5th of February, 1956,

17     in Serbia?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And from 1974 until 2006 you worked as a policeman, namely as a

20     crime technician?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you are retired since 2006?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I want to show you your statement which you have given in

25     June 2002.

Page 1761

 1             MR. NEUNER:  Can we have 65 ter number 5139 on our screen,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise your statement and -- can you see it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is this statement complete and a true and accurate reflection of

 6     what you said at the time?

 7        A.   I can only see the front page, but I do believe that that is the

 8     statement.

 9        Q.   Yes, this is just the first page of a couple of pages of the

10     statement.  We have uploaded electronically is complete here.  You see,

11     for example, the second page here, the third page --

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   And the last page, yeah.

14             MR. NEUNER:  With this witness explanation could I seek to tender

15     65 ter 5139 into evidence, please.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00358, Your Honours.

18             MR. NEUNER:

19        Q.   And you testified also in the Milutinovic et al case, didn't you

20     in November 2006?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. NEUNER:  And could we have the 65 ter number 5138, please.

23        Q.   This is the first page, and it's in English, of the words you've

24     spoken in the Milutinovic case.  It's a verbatim record.  Do you agree

25     that together, with the statement, this transcript truly and accurately

Page 1762

 1     reflects what you would say if you would give today your testimony orally

 2     here in court?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. NEUNER:  Could I have 65 ter number 5138 being tendered,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00359, Your Honours.

 8             MR. NEUNER:  I'm reading out a summary of the witness's evidence.

 9             In 1999 Mr. Radojkovic was a policeman and senior crime

10     technician in the Serbian Ministry of Interior in the Kladovo police

11     station in Serbia.  On 4 April 1999 the witness was called to the Danube

12     river at Tekija in Serbia.  In the Danube a refrigerator truck had been

13     found.  The witness took a number of photographs.  In the following days,

14     the witness assisted in the recovery of the lorry from the river and

15     examined the contents of the truck.  It contained bodies which were

16     loaded on to other trucks which left towards Donji Milanovac in

17     north-western direction.  Following instructions from his superior, the

18     witness later disposed of the truck and blew it up with explosives.

19             The witness was interviewed about the refrigerator truck incident

20     by a ministerial working group formed by the MUP in 2001.  On 26th June

21     that year the working group delivered an official communique outlining

22     the result of their inquiries.  Part of the communique related to the

23     work of this witness.  The witness also participated in exhumations in

24     Petrovo Selo in the spring and summer of 2001.

25        Q.   I'm going to show you now a couple of documents --

Page 1763

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but I'm

 3     looking at the summary that I received and the last two sentences read

 4     out by my learned friend, Mr. Neuner, are simply not there -- or at

 5     least -- I may have misunderstood.  I do apologise.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  Yeah, I didn't read out the summary word by word,

 7     but I shortened it even in certain instances.  The witness also had

 8     mentioned Petrovo Selo in his statement which I tendered a moment ago.

 9             So I would proceed with Your Honour's leave to the first

10     document.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

12             MR. NEUNER:  This is 65 ter number 1.01, a map.

13        Q.   And, Witness, I would ask you with the assistance of the usher to

14     mark us some place names here on the map.  Firstly I would ask you to

15     encircle Kladovo where your police station was.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you mark a 1 next to the encirclement.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.  The next encircle please mark where Bor is.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mark a 2 next to this, please.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And the next location, please, Tekija itself where the truck was

24     found.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 1764

 1        Q.   Please mark a 3.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What roughly is the distance between Tekija and

 4     Prizren in kilometres?

 5        A.   I think about 400.

 6        Q.   Then I would ask you to mark Donji Milanovac.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  And while the witness is doing this, this place is

 8     mentioned twice in the Milutinovic transcript which was just tendered by

 9     this witness on transcript pages 7449 and 7452 for Your Honours'

10     reference.

11        Q.   Could you mark a number 4 next to Donji Milanovac.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Then, please, Belgrade and circle Belgrade and mark a number 5.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Could you tell us what is --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I don't see

18     why we would have this witness mark Belgrade.  Where can I find a

19     reference for that?

20             JUDGE PARKER:  I have no idea, Mr. Djurdjic, but I think we're

21     going to waste more time dealing with that than we are with having the

22     witness mark Belgrade.  With a bit of luck, most of us would be able to

23     find Belgrade if we had to.  Thank you.

24             Carry on, Mr. Neuner.

25             MR. NEUNER:

Page 1765

 1        Q.   Could you explain roughly what the difference between Tekija and

 2     Belgrade is please.  The distance -- I apologise, the distance in

 3     kilometres between Tekija and Belgrade.

 4        A.   About 270 kilometres.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now mark or encircle Petrovo Selo and mark

 6     a 6 next to this.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  While the witness is doing this, Your Honours, this

 8     place is mentioned on page -- transcript page 7453 of the Milutinovic

 9     transcript by this witness and on page 3 of the statement which was just

10     tendered.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

12             MR. NEUNER:

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. NEUNER:  I would seek to tender this annotated map as an

15     exhibit.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00360, Your Honours.

18             MR. NEUNER:  I would now like to show 65 ter 596 to this witness.

19     We can zoom maybe in a little bit on the picture.

20        Q.   And could you tell us what is marked here, what is depicted here?

21        A.   This is one of the photographs that I took on the spot.  This

22     photograph was taken after the rear end of the truck, or rather, its

23     cargo compartment had been hauled up ashore.

24        Q.   Had the truck any licence plate when you saw it?

25        A.   No, none.

Page 1766

 1        Q.   Could you describe the dark part on the right door?

 2        A.   What we can see on the door is a crack towards the rear or the

 3     lower part of the right-hand door on the cargo.

 4        Q.   What, if anything, was protruding from the right back door?

 5        A.   Yes, we can see a leg sticking out.  This is a very poor-quality

 6     copy of the photo, but you can see the ladder up into the back of the

 7     truck and you can see a human foot.

 8        Q.   Could you, with the assistance of the usher, mark the leg.  And

 9     we have a couple of pictures coming so if he could just hold the pen for

10     now.  Yes.  Thank you.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             MR. NEUNER:  For the record, the witness is encircling the lower

13     part of what he believes is a leg, and I would seek with that explanation

14     to tender that exhibit which is 65 ter 596.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00361, Your Honours.

18             MR. NEUNER:  Could we move to the next picture which is

19     65 ter 599.

20             I think the witness has the pen now so can -- yeah, could we zoom

21     in, please, on the front of this vehicle here in front of us, even a

22     little bit more, please.  Thank you.

23        Q.   And we see here again this truck.  Could you tell us -- I can

24     read here the words "Pik Progre."  What does this mean on the door?

25        A.   It reads "Pik Progres, Exportna-Klanica Prizren" there's a

Page 1767

 1     telephone number there and a fax number.

 2        Q.   Who was operating this company in 1999?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I think it was a state-owned company, socially

 4     owned, if you like.

 5        Q.   Could you just encircle the --

 6             MR. NEUNER:  The usher doesn't need to come because he can just

 7     encircle it.

 8        Q.   -- the "Pik Progres" part, I mean the -- yes, thank you.

 9             MR. NEUNER:  And with that explanation I would seek to tender

10     65 ter 599.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00362, Your Honours.

13             MR. NEUNER:

14        Q.   Moving on to Exhibit 601, please.  And now with the following

15     picture I would just ask you to point out to Your Honours what the

16     difference is between this new picture and the previous two pictures at

17     which we looked is.  You can zoom in a little bit to assist you.  What

18     are the main differences?

19        A.   If you look at the rear end of the cargo compartment, the door,

20     the crack is no longer there, the foot is no longer there.  I think there

21     were two feet sticking out as a matter of fact.  That is no longer to be

22     seen.  You can see a piece of tin here that was used to cover the crack.

23        Q.   Could you mark where the tin is which covered the crack.  And

24     circle it, please, and mark a 1 next to it.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 1768

 1        Q.   So we don't see any crack at all?

 2        A.   No, not really.

 3        Q.   And the second -- the second difference?

 4        A.   I think one can no longer see the inscription on the passenger

 5     door.

 6        Q.   Could you mark where no longer the inscriptions are on the

 7     passenger door by encircling it and mark a 2 next to it, please.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Then did this truck in the state in which you took a

10     photograph here have a licence plate?

11        A.   No.  I'm not sure if there is one in this photograph, though.  At

12     any rate, they are nowhere to be seen.

13        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain to me why or who was involved in covering

14     the back door with the tin and with removing the inscription of the

15     company from Prizren from the front door?

16        A.   The crack on the right-hand door of the cargo compartment was

17     covered by me.  The person who helped me was Zivadin Djordjevic, the

18     diver who was with me; and some other people brought a tin sheet and a

19     corkscrew as well as a pair of screws for me to be able to affix it and

20     to be able to keep the crack from opening, from spreading.  As for the

21     inscription on the door, I was the person who painted it over.

22             MR. NEUNER:  With these explanations I would seek to tender the

23     photo with the 65 ter 601.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00363, Your Honours.

Page 1769

 1             MR. NEUNER:

 2        Q.   I want to move on to the next exhibit, a press article, and

 3     that's 65 ter number 566.01.

 4             While it comes up I can read out to save some time the headline

 5     already of that article.

 6             "Refrigerator truck in the Danube.  Bodies in the truck," it is

 7     entitled.

 8             We would need from that article in B/C/S only the right page, if

 9     you could screen in on the right page only.  Yes.  And if we could even

10     enlarge on the left column, please, only the left column I need.  Yes.

11     And if we could enlarge even a little bit further --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing in mind the

14     statements that I have seen, I think the witness should first be asked

15     whether he has read the article; and if so, when.  Just as a reference, I

16     do believe that it's very important.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

18             MR. NEUNER:

19        Q.   Witness, is it correct that while you were here in proofing you

20     have read this article?

21        A.   Yes.  I do believe that I did.  I read the article back when it

22     was first published, however.

23             MR. NEUNER:  I hope my learned colleague is satisfied now.

24             I'm interested in the second paragraph of the left column.  I

25     think it is -- if we could scroll down a little bit starting with this

Page 1770

 1     "tako."  And in English it is page 2, the third-last paragraph.

 2        Q.   If you could just read silently to yourself this paragraph.  The

 3     third-last paragraph I would only need starting with the word "finally."

 4     Yes, thank you.

 5             So mentioning is made here in the article about a location of a

 6     truck, and it says it's near to Captain Koca's monument, the truck.  My

 7     question to you is:  The truck with which you dealt, was this truck

 8     located near the Captain Koca monument and what is the Captain Koca

 9     monument if it was located there?

10        A.   Yes, this is Captain Koca Andjelkovic, that's who the monument is

11     to.  The distance between the axis -- the entry to Tekija all the way

12     from Kladovo and the monument itself is about a kilometre.  This was an

13     old statue, a monument that had been submerged in the Danube at one point

14     and a copy was made and placed there.  This is simply as a reference

15     point for the location of the truck and is referred to that way in this

16     newspaper piece or article.  So there is a monument there and the

17     monument is to Captain Koca Andjelkovic.

18        Q.   So do I take it that this journalist is also reporting about the

19     same truck with which you also dealt in April 1999?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  He's trying to write about that event because that was

21     the only event that took place near the monument to Koca Andjelkovic near

22     Tekija.

23             MR. NEUNER:  Could I ask that the 65 ter number 566.01 is

24     tendered into evidence.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  What is the date of the --

Page 1771

 1             MR. NEUNER:  The date is the - if we could zoom out a little

 2     bit - is from 1999.  On the bottom of this copy which we secured this

 3     morning only I believe it says 16 September 1999.  That's why we secured

 4     a now copy from a library in Novi Sad this morning.  If we could even

 5     enlarge it further -- 15th of September, 1999, Your Honours.  I correct

 6     myself.  As far as we could see, it's the earliest point in time that the

 7     incident was reported.  The incident dates back to 4/5 April 1999 as Your

 8     Honours have noticed.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  And the name of the publication?

10             MR. NEUNER:  The name of the publication is -- it's also stated

11     in the full translation.  Timocka Krimi Revija.  It is not translated

12     here.  Maybe I can ask the witness.

13        Q.   Witness, do you know what Timocka Krimi Revija means or could you

14     explain?  Do you know that magazine?

15        A.   Yes, yes, it's a local or regional paper carrying mostly reports

16     about crimes and certain incidents of that kind.  It is published in

17     Zajecar.  A friend of mine, a colleague from the past, Vitomirovic, wrote

18     it.  I saw that article in 1999 only I forgot what it contained.

19        Q.   And did you bring that article to the attention of one of your

20     superiors at the time?

21        A.   I didn't have anyone to inform.  These are newspapers sold at

22     kiosks, but the journalist brought it to the police station and he would

23     always give us three or four copies free so there was no point me

24     informing anyone about it.

25        Q.   Is it a daily or a weekly newspaper?

Page 1772

 1        A.   I think it's a monthly or fortnightly newspaper.

 2        Q.   And you said a moment ago that the journal was brought to the

 3     police station.  To which police station was it brought to by the

 4     journalist?

 5        A.   The police station in Kladovo.  The journalist and editor is a

 6     former colleague of ours.  He used to work in the police and then he

 7     started working in journalism and he was always welcome.  We liked to see

 8     him.  I believe he took the paper to other police stations in the region

 9     for the purpose -- for publicity purposes.

10        Q.   What's the name of the editor, please?

11        A.   Dragan Vitomirovic.  He was killed in a traffic accident a couple

12     of years ago.

13        Q.   Is it fair to say since Mr. Vitomirovic was a former colleague

14     that he had -- that he was well connected to police sources?

15        A.   No, I don't think so, because even this article it's just a

16     newspaper article.  The location is okay, it is correct, but the rest of

17     it is just a journalist's story.

18             MR. NEUNER:  With this explanation could I seek that

19     65 ter number 566.01 --

20        Q.   Sorry, I interrupted --

21             MR. NEUNER:  -- can be tendered.

22        Q.   -- it will be tendered and you can give your explanation?

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be P00364, Your Honours.

25             MR. NEUNER:

Page 1773

 1        Q.   You can give your explanation now, please.

 2        A.   I just wanted to say that he got in touch with me and asked me

 3     about this but we never discussed it.

 4             MR. NEUNER:  I would seek to have the next document 65 ter 565

 5     being shown to this witness now.

 6        Q.   This is, while it comes up, another press article in the same

 7     magazine we just discussed from 1st of May, 2001, almost two years later.

 8     And I'm interested in the B/C/S and both versions in page 3.  And in

 9     English it is the second-last paragraph and in B/C/S it's the left column

10     and the ninth line from the bottom there.  We only need the left column

11     here.  You could probably scroll down a bit for the witness, the ninth

12     line from the bottom.  Scroll down, please, you are scrolling up.  Fully

13     down, please.  Thank you.  I think that's it, yeah.

14             I'm reading to make it a little bit easier, if you could read it

15     silently just for the record.  The paragraph starts with:

16             "Sperlic, chief of Kladovo OUP ..."

17             What I'm interested in is a sentence which comes a little bit

18     lower.

19             "In order to suppress rumours, it was agreed to spread the word

20     that the bodies were of the Kurds who tried to cross the border into

21     Romania."

22             Does that information tell anything to you?

23        A.   Yes, what you read out.  I see that again this is a newspaper

24     article.  I don't have full insight into everything, but what you just

25     read out regarding the Kurds, yes, that is quite correct and that is what

Page 1774

 1     was done, we agreed.  The chief, Sperlic, and me, and some other people

 2     in the local police agreed to spread the rumour that the Kurds were

 3     escaping the war and the bombing in Serbia because there was an incident

 4     a couple of days prior to this about 50 kilometres upstream some

 5     person - now, whether they were Kurds or not - they had crossed the state

 6     border without documents.  And so this gave us the idea because a large

 7     number of people had seen not the whole thing but partially what had

 8     happened.

 9        Q.   To whom was this information provided in order to suppress the

10     rumours?

11        A.   To no one in particular.  Kladovo is a small town.  We all know

12     each other there.  I was a policeman, as were the others, and we knew

13     whom we should tell and we knew -- telling him to keep quiet about it,

14     but we knew that he would pass it on immediately.  So we knew the people

15     that we should give such information to and they would spread it further,

16     people sitting around in cafes, in restaurants.  This is normal for the

17     police, to know such people.

18        Q.   So do you know that indeed these people sitting around in cafes

19     were approached with that rumour -- regarding that rumour?

20        A.   I went to talk one or two of them, who asked me what had happened

21     and I said, just some Kurds wanted to escape and the truck skidded into

22     the Danube.

23        Q.   And looking back now, was it successfully suppressed, the

24     rumours, by providing that story and for long if so?

25        A.   People stopped talking about it soon, and when the government

Page 1775

 1     changed in Serbia all this came out into the open.  So if you want an

 2     explanation, I can clarify.

 3        Q.   Just -- can you maybe give me a year and, if you can, even a

 4     month in which the government changed and everything came to light?

 5        A.   When it changed, the year 2000 I think.  And this is already --

 6     it was already in 2001 that everything came out into the open.  And I'll

 7     explain, if you wish, how this is done.  The Timocka Krimi review is a

 8     local paper appearing in the region of Zajecar and there are the

 9     neighbouring municipalities, Bor, Majdanpek, Negotin.  And this Timocka

10     crime review published it today, but it is not published in Belgrade nor

11     is it sold there in Belgrade, Novi Sad, or Nis but only within the

12     region.

13             And when this Timocka Krimi Revija published the news in the

14     morning already the next morning all the newspapers in Serbia published

15     it on the front page.  So it's hard to explain how quickly this reached

16     Belgrade, but all this was prepared in advance, and the word was that it

17     should be released.

18             MR. NEUNER:  Could I seek to tender this document 65 ter number

19     was 565, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00365, Your Honours.

22             MR. NEUNER:

23        Q.   I want to come back to the bodies inside the truck.  Could you

24     first of all tell me whether there were also female bodies found in the

25     truck itself?

Page 1776

 1        A.   Yes, there were.

 2        Q.   Roughly how many female bodies, or, if you don't know, how many

 3     percentage you now think were females?

 4        A.   In view of the fact that I saw all the bodies and had contact

 5     with them, I don't think that there were more than ten or so female

 6     bodies, about ten.

 7        Q.   And from your evidence I also gathered that there were two

 8     children in addition to the females, yeah?

 9        A.   Yes, a boy and a girl were found.

10        Q.   So what clothes looking at the more than 80 bodies, what clothes

11     did these -- all these persons wear?

12        A.   They all had civilian clothes.

13        Q.   Did you notice any uniforms, a single uniform among them?

14        A.   No, no, there wasn't a single uniform.

15             MR. NEUNER:  Could we have 65 ter number 568 shown to this

16     witness, please.

17        Q.   And while it comes up, we see and I also mentioned in the

18     summary, this is from a press conference here held on the

19     25th of May, 2001.

20             My first question is:  Have you ever seen this document?

21             MR. NEUNER:  Could we scroll it up, please, so the witness can

22     see the heading also.  And the English could be enlarged a little bit if

23     it's possible because I don't think it's easy to read for Your Honours.

24     Thank you.

25        Q.   Have you seen this document?

Page 1777

 1        A.   I have.  I saw it five minutes after it was completed due to

 2     various circumstances.

 3        Q.   Can you first of all tell me -- it says here UKP and I'm talking

 4     about the second line of the header here?

 5        A.   It is the administration of the criminal police of the MUP in

 6     Belgrade.

 7        Q.   Who in 2001 headed the UKP?

 8        A.   The head was General Knezevic.  Yes, I'm quite sure,

 9     General Knezevic.

10        Q.   And to who did Mr. Knezevic report to in 2001 if you know?

11        A.   To the minister, probably the minister.  I'm not too familiar

12     with the organisational structure in the MUP, but probably the minister

13     as head of the crime police -- no, I apologise, I made a mistake, to the

14     head of the department for public security.  It is to him that he

15     reported.  He was his superior.

16        Q.   Do you know in 2001 who the head of the department of public

17     security was?

18        A.   I think it was General Sreten Lukic.

19        Q.   We see here - and please look at the last paragraph in B/C/S --

20             MR. NEUNER:  We need to scroll it down for the witness and in the

21     English it's the fifth paragraph.

22        Q.   -- that your name is also mentioned in this.  And I'm just

23     referring to the last sentence here which says -- and this is referring

24     to the bodies found in the truck:  "Several male bodies wore UCK

25     uniforms."

Page 1778

 1             What would your comment be --

 2        A.   No.  No, that's a mistake in writing this report.

 3        Q.   Sir, did you tell to anybody from the MUP in Serbia that

 4     information which is depicted here that any of the bodies were wearing

 5     UCK uniforms?

 6        A.   I did provide that information, but not in the refrigerator

 7     truck, in another place.  When they wrote this information, they mixed

 8     the two cases up.  And due to the circumstances, when this information

 9     was being drafted, it had already been prepared.  I was in Belgrade at

10     the time and I told the author of this information that this was a

11     mistake, and then he called up General Lukic and told him that the last

12     sentence was wrong and he corrected it.

13        Q.   So -- but your evidence today is that you made it clear in

14     relation to the refrigerator truck bodies and the bodies found there,

15     there were no UCK uniforms found on the bodies and that's what you always

16     stated?  I'm just trying to summarise correctly.

17        A.   Yes, absolutely so.  I -- that is what I said in my statement, as

18     did the other colleagues who were involved with this.

19             MR. NEUNER:  With this explanation could I seek to tender

20     65 ter 568 into evidence.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00366, Your Honours.

23             MR. NEUNER:  Moving on to the next document 573 is the next

24     65 ter number.  If we could enlarge it for the witness.

25        Q.   Witness, this is mentioning -- this document is mentioning your

Page 1779

 1     name a couple of times.  My first question would be:  Have you ever seen

 2     this document?

 3        A.   Yes, I have.  This is the basic document and the first one made

 4     in connection with this case.  I saw it during the trial of Mr. Milosevic

 5     and Mr. Milutinovic and others.

 6        Q.   And does this document accurately reflect what you had stated to

 7     the working group established under the MUP roof in 2001?

 8        A.   In principle, I agree with this official note, but I would like

 9     to point out that this is not my statement.  This is a different form of

10     a report.  The official note was prepared by the working group on the

11     basis of a -- an interview with me, and then this interview was conveyed

12     in this note and there is some deviation.  But in principle that is what

13     it is.

14        Q.   So, Witness, is it correct that you have not signed this official

15     note?

16        A.   Yes, that is true.  I don't sign such an official note.  If it

17     had been a statement then I would have had to sign it.

18             MR. NEUNER:  Could we go to page 5 in English, and I need the

19     third paragraph, please, and in B/C/S I would need page 6.  Thank you.

20     And in B/C/S it's the second paragraph from the top.

21        Q.   First of all -- yeah, I give you a little time to read this.  It

22     starts with:  "Bosko has information" here for Your Honours' benefit.

23        A.   Yes, I am familiar with all this.

24        Q.   First of all, could you tell Your Honours who is Bosko?

25        A.   I am Bosko.

Page 1780

 1        Q.   That's your nickname, yeah?

 2        A.   No, it's my name.

 3        Q.   Sorry.  And is this relating here to the refrigerator truck?

 4        A.   If I may be allowed, I would like to explain the second part of

 5     this official note.

 6        Q.   I would first ask you one or two questions, and then you are

 7     given the chance to explain.  The question is:  Does this photograph

 8     relate to the refrigerator truck?

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise.  It

11     appears as if I'm taking up time, but I don't see in this paragraph any

12     mention of the refrigerator truck, and my learned friend is asking him to

13     comment on the refrigerator truck.  So in this paragraph there's no

14     reference to the refrigerator truck -- oh, yes, there is.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Is this the paragraph commencing:  "Bosko has

16     information ..."

17             MR. NEUNER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  If it is, I see two references to the refrigerator

19     truck.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Near the end of the paragraph, Mr. Djurdjic.

22             Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.

23             MR. NEUNER:

24        Q.   What -- I can be more precise.  Is this referring to the

25     refrigerator truck before it fell into the Danube?

Page 1781

 1        A.   Yes, this refers to that but only on the basis of certain

 2     information.  It is not evidence.  It is the stories that were going

 3     around afterwards because I checked this out a couple of days after the

 4     event.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Who provided that information which is stated in this

 6     paragraph to you?

 7        A.   Just a moment, please.  Rade Bogdanovic told me that.

 8        Q.   And who is Mr. Bogdanovic?

 9        A.   He's currently retired.  He worked in a company.  He was a

10     director in Termovent, but I wish to underline that these were not

11     verified information.  They were given to the working group to check them

12     out.

13        Q.   Can you inform me whether Mr. Bogdanovic had personally observed

14     the information which is stated in the paragraph here?

15        A.   Probably he did, otherwise he wouldn't have told me that.

16        Q.   Okay.  There's mentioning made here of two jeeps and people in

17     camouflage uniforms.  Could you verify from Mr. Bogdanovic whether the --

18     to which force or to which unit, if any, these jeeps and the people in

19     the camouflage uniform belonged to?

20        A.   No.  They passed in a car.  It was night-time.  He saw those two

21     jeeps for a moment.  It was in the night.  It was late at night.  I can't

22     tell you exactly what the time was or what he said to me when this was,

23     but he just saw that.  I don't know whether this has any connection to

24     the refrigerator truck or not, but he said -- he told me what he had seen

25     that night on the road.

Page 1782

 1        Q.   Then there is mentioning made that -- and I think that's a few

 2     paragraphs below -- two paragraphs below:  "Bosko stresses everything

 3     fits chronologically.  The refrigerator truck went through

 4     Gornji Milanovac, where it was seen.  After the tunnel the jeeps were

 5     seen without the refrigerator truck, and then the same people and jeeps

 6     were seen at the GP."

 7             What is "GP" standing for?

 8        A.   Let me say first of all that is the difference between an

 9     official note and a statement.  Here in the note, the author says

10     Gornji Milanovac which is about 300 kilometres from Donji Milanovac.  It

11     should say here Donji Milanovac.  That's a mistake.  And GP stands for

12     border crossing, the Djerdap border crossing toward Romania.  So this is

13     not Gornji Milanovac but it should be Donji Milanovac.

14        Q.   Djerdap - I may pronounce it wrongly -border crossing, how far

15     away from Tekija is it?

16        A.   About 12 kilometres, 12, 13 kilometres downstream towards

17     Kladovo.

18             MR. NEUNER:  I would seek to tender this document with a

19     65 ter number 573, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00367, Your Honours.

22             MR. NEUNER:

23        Q.   I want to take you now to Petrovo Selo, and this is transcript

24     page 7453 in the Milutinovic case, Your Honours, where you mention to

25     have blown up the truck.  First you said it was incinerated and then

Page 1783

 1     blown up by you in Petrovo Selo.  Sir, tell me at what location --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   -- did this occur in Petrovo Selo?

 4        A.   This occurred -- I think it was on the 7th, that is, it was set

 5     alight; and on the 8th it was blown up at a facility which used to be a

 6     military facility a shooting range, then later it belonged to the

 7     Territorial Defence, afterwards to the police.  So it was a

 8     training-ground.

 9        Q.   So, sir, in 1999 who operated that facility where you blew the

10     truck up?

11        A.   I don't know exactly who was in charge.  For a while it was under

12     the SUP of Zajecar, then in 1999 it was under the MUP of Serbia, the MUP

13     of Serbia was running this polygon.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I want now to ask you a little bit about the

15     exhumations - and I'm switching to a separate event here, the

16     exhumations.  Could you tell me in late May 2001 what happened?

17        A.   In late May 2001 --

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have a

20     reference that's in the summary to these 2001 exhumations.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

22             MR. NEUNER:  I believe this is what -- relating to the objection

23     my learned friend has made at the very beginning.  I personally have not

24     written the summary, and I have to say as far as I understand, there is

25     no explicit reference to Petrovo Selo in the summary as such.  But I also

Page 1784

 1     believe that it is explicitly stated in the witness's statement, and he

 2     even gives during his statement an explanation about the KLA uniforms and

 3     where the comment about the KLA uniforms is coming from.  So he clarifies

 4     issues coming out of the refrigerator incident, and I think I'm giving

 5     this witness now also a chance to explain further what he meant with this

 6     remark.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you saying this is referred to in this report

 8     or this --

 9             MR. NEUNER:  Yeah, this is referred to, first of all, in page 3

10     of the witness's statement.  It is referred also in the document which I

11     have tendered a moment ago, the 2001 report from the

12     Ministry of Interior.  I walked the witness particular to this passage

13     relating to the KLA uniforms, and I thought I'm giving the witness a

14     further possibility to explain what he meant.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Now Mr. Djurdjic.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm looking at the

17     Serbian version, and this is page 3, the Tribunal's investigator is

18     showing this 26th of June Serbia MUP information, it's about 2001 of

19     course, stating that some male bodies wore KLA uniforms, and then the

20     witness answered that none of the bodies in the refrigerator truck had

21     KLA uniforms on them.  Therefore, there is no reference at all to any

22     exhumation in this statement.

23             To go back to something that I've noticed several times already,

24     there is the substance of the witness statement that is reflected in the

25     summary, but it is not consistent with reality.  I will from now on

Page 1785

 1     always react appropriately as soon as I have realised that the substance

 2     of the statement is not accurately and faithfully reflected in the

 3     summary provided.  Thank you.

 4             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, I can clear this up I hope very

 5     quickly.  This is also from page 3 of the statement which I tendered I

 6     think it was the first exhibit today --

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Exhibit P358.

 8             MR. NEUNER:  Thank you.  It says:

 9             "I agree with all this except the comment about the KLA uniforms.

10     This has been confused with the exhumations carried out at Petrovo Selo

11     where I was the Crime Technician."

12             And this is indeed the sentence upon which I am trying to

13     elaborate.  It is explicitly stated there that there were exhumations,

14     that the witness was a crime technician.  I believe it is all clear.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Please continue to clarify what is being dealt

16     with in that sentence.

17             MR. NEUNER:

18        Q.   Could you first of all tell me whether, as you stated, you were a

19     crime technician there, in Petrovo Selo in May 2001.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And who requested your services to attend as a crime technician

22     the exhumations?

23        A.   If I may, I'm facing a problem here talking about this case.  I

24     made a statement about the refrigerator truck incident in the Milosevic

25     trial and in the Milutinovic trial.  What I see written here what is

Page 1786

 1     being challenged the KLA uniforms that were not there was already quite

 2     familiar back in 2006.  No one asked me a question about it.  Back in

 3     2001, if I may be given a chance to explain this, back in 2001 I was told

 4     that I would be making a statement about the refrigerator truck incident.

 5     I may as well address this now because I have been shown a number of

 6     documents by the Prosecutor.

 7             Nevertheless, I only found out two days ago that I would be

 8     expected to address this subject too, which I can, but I was a technician

 9     so I like to keep things precise.  I'm not best prepared to deal with

10     this right now, but I think it should be up to you to decide whether I

11     will embark on this or not.  I did do that.  I was involved in that

12     exhumation with the Nis Institute back in 2001; that much is true.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If the interpretation is correct,

15     I heard that the witness was only shown this two days ago, what he's

16     supposing to be addressing now and what he is being examined on now by my

17     learned friend and that is precisely what I said a while ago.

18             MR. NEUNER:  First of all, for clarification, this witness has

19     talked in the Milutinovic case, and that's page 7455, also about the

20     exhumations of the mass grave at Petrovo Selo, and that's lines 11 and

21     12.  It's not the first time -- I mean, I'm prepared just to lead just a

22     few facts from this witness, which he has observed as a crime technician

23     and not to go into the details of the issue, if Your Honours permit me.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  I find that there seems to be two issues, one you

25     are dealing with, one Mr. Djurdjic is dealing with.  And I'm not sure of

Page 1787

 1     the factual foundation for what Mr. Djurdjic is saying.  Is it that the

 2     only exhumations that you will be referring to with this witness arise

 3     from this reference to excavations at Petrovo Selo?

 4             MR. NEUNER:  Correct, Your Honours.  I want the witness to

 5     clarify this --

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  And the only context in which they are mentioned

 7     is to explain what the witness says is a mistake in reference to KLA

 8     uniforms in connection with the bodies in the refrigerator truck?

 9             MR. NEUNER:  And if possible confusion thereof which went into a

10     document which was officially distributed, as the witness has explained

11     to Your Honour a moment ago.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, what are you concerned about with that,

13     Mr. Djurdjic?

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness says

15     that he set the record straight back in June 2006 and now he quotes the

16     official note that was published.  He said -- he drew the attention of

17     the person who compiled the note to this and that this was conveyed to

18     General Lukic.  He told us that this very afternoon.  Therefore, any

19     reference to any exhumation, if we look at all of the witness's

20     statements, in 1999 no reference at all to an exhumation.  I think that

21     is clear if we look at the statements, and the witness confirmed this for

22     our benefit some minutes ago.  It wasn't before two days ago that the

23     witness actually talked to the Prosecutor about the exhumation, and that

24     is another thing that the witness has clearly shared with us.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  At the moment, Mr. Djurdjic, I am not able to

Page 1788

 1     grasp the difficulty you are dealing with.  There is in this document,

 2     which is on our screen, a reference in the communique to there being

 3     several male corpses in KLA uniforms in the refrigerated truck.  The

 4     witness is -- it is his evidence, right or wrong is another matter, but

 5     it is the witness's evidence that that was not the case, there were no

 6     bodies in the refrigerated truck in KLA uniforms, that he expects that

 7     the reference to KLA uniforms results from a confusion because he did see

 8     KLA uniforms among bodies which were exhumed at Petrovo Selo.  Nothing to

 9     do with the refrigerated truck at all.  So the only reference to this

10     exhumation is to say it was another lot of bodies, another incident, and

11     they got confused.

12             Now, is that a problem for you?  Otherwise, thank you.

13             Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.

14             MR. NEUNER:  I'm trying to finish now.  I would have finished a

15     long time ago, and I hope that the objection time doesn't count for my

16     examination time?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner, I tried to keep it clear before, we

18     don't keep a stopwatch.

19             MR. NEUNER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  We look at the approximate time as a guide, and we

21     hope people can keep to it.  Untoward events happening, we take notice of

22     and allow the time to be extended without any question.

23             MR. NEUNER:  Thank you, Your Honours, this is anyway my last line

24     of questioning here.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Will it finish in two minutes?

Page 1789

 1             MR. NEUNER:  I can [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Because if it won't, Mr. Neuner, it's better that

 3     you do it in the morning.

 4             MR. NEUNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... morning, then I try to be

 5     finished within a few minutes and I promise Your Honours to do so.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, because I can see that you have reached the

 7     point where you probably have too much to conclude satisfactorily

 8     tonight.

 9             Now, I believe tomorrow we are sitting in the afternoon.  I

10     wrongly assumed morning, which means everyone can make mistakes when they

11     say things.  And that, therefore, means we must adjourn now.  We resume

12     tomorrow at 2.15, and we must ask you if you would return tomorrow to

13     continue with your evidence and the Court staff will assist you with

14     arrangements overnight and tomorrow.

15             We now adjourn.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

18                           March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.