Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3694

 1                           Friday, 24 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             MR. NEUNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  The next witness is Sejdi Lami -- Sejdi Lama.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Would you please read aloud the

10     affirmation on the card that is given to you now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  SADA LAMA

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

16                           Examination by Mr. Neuner:

17        Q.   Good morning --

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner has some questions for you.

19             MR. NEUNER:

20        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   Could you spell your last name for the record, please.

23        A.   I am Sada Lama, S-a-d-a L-a-m-a.

24        Q.   And, Mr. Lama, you were born on the 8th of August, 1950?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3695

 1        Q.   And is it correct that you gave a statement to the Office of the

 2     Prosecutor in mid-July 2000?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you also testified in the Milutinovic et al case on the 12th

 5     of September, 2006?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And before you came here you had an opportunity to review both

 8     your statement and you testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And together do the statement and the transcript of testimony

11     truly and accurately reflect what you would have said if you would give

12     your testimony orally today before this Court?

13        A.   Yes, I would say the same things today.

14             MR. NEUNER:  Your Honours, I'm referring to the statement.  It's

15     65 ter number 2271 which I would seek to tender.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00661, Your Honours.

18             MR. NEUNER:  And also to the transcript which has 65 ter

19     number 5084.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00662, Your Honours.

22             MR. NEUNER:  I will read out a summary of this witness's

23     evidence.

24             The witness is a male Kosovo Albanian Muslim from Vata village,

25     municipality of Kacanik.  During the conflict in 1999 there was no

Page 3696

 1     regular KLA presence in the village; however, about a week before the VJ

 2     attack some 20 KLA soldiers stayed in a house in the village.  They left

 3     the place the day before the attack.

 4             The witness saw on 13th of April, 1999, four Pragas and six

 5     lorries transporting 100 soldiers from a VJ unit entering the village.

 6     The population learned that soldiers had also surrounded the villages of

 7     Slatina in the municipality of Kacanik.  When shooting started from

 8     Pragas and hand-guns in the early morning, about 300 villagers left for

 9     the mountains.  The witness and his family left also and hid in a gorge.

10     Serb soldiers came who left in the afternoon when the shooting stopped.

11     With others the witness found the bodies of four men who were unarmed and

12     had been captured before.  The bodies were brought to Vata.  That day

13     seven more bodies were brought to the village from different locations in

14     the area.  In the neighbourhood of Caka and Tifeku, most of the houses

15     were burned.

16             On 14 and 15 April the whole population of the village fled

17     towards Macedonia.  On the way to Macedonia they were stopped by VJ

18     soldiers who demanded money.  They paid 500 German marks.  The witness

19     returned on 17th of July, 1999, to Vata.  His houses as well as other

20     houses in the village were looted.  One of the 11 bodies which were

21     initially -- which was initially buried in the cemetery, Ramadan Xhokli,

22     was reburied in the KLA cemetery because he had been an active KLA

23     member.

24             End of the summary.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

Page 3697

 1             MR. NEUNER:

 2        Q.   Witness, I would just have a few questions, and I wanted to show

 3     you your statement briefly.  That's 65 ter --

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  That's P661.

 5             MR. NEUNER:  P661.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             And in the English version I would need to have page 3, the third

 7     paragraph from the bottom; and in the Albanian version, please, page 8,

 8     the second paragraph from the top.

 9        Q.   I hope you can read that.  I see you have your glasses with you.

10     Just -- it has appeared in front of you on the left-hand side of the

11     screen, I believe.

12             MR. NEUNER:  This -- the Albanian version should be page 8.  Yes.

13        Q.   Witness, if you could read the second paragraph which is in front

14     of you here on the screen.  I hope you can read this.  Are you able to

15     read?

16        A.   I can't make it out very well.  Is it on the next page?

17        Q.   I can also read it to you if this is helpful.  I appear not to

18     have a hard copy here.  Yeah, I will read it to you.  You stated here on

19     the 7th -- on the 13th of April, 1999, "at 5.00 in the morning four

20     Pragas and six military lorries entered the village."

21             What I wanted to ask you:  What was the colour of these military

22     lorries?

23        A.   The military lorries had the normal colour -- the dark colour.  I

24     don't know how to describe it to you.  It is -- it was -- they were

25     darker than the colour of the screen here.

Page 3698

 1        Q.   It's the second paragraph.  I hope you can read now.

 2             And why did you conclude that these were military lorries?

 3        A.   Because we saw them when they got off the lorries, I mean the

 4     soldiers, and they came through the houses towards the mountain.  We also

 5     saw the lorries when they went back without the soldiers.

 6        Q.   Can you describe what the soldiers were wearing?

 7        A.   They had camouflage uniforms, brown and blue.  There were also

 8     some other ones wearing dark brown and black uniforms, camouflage, just

 9     like the American army uniforms.

10        Q.   Did you see any insignia?

11        A.   I did not see them from close up.  They were about 3 or

12     400 metres away.  If we had been close up we would have been killed.  We

13     could only see them from afar.

14        Q.   And if you read further here in this paragraph you later on talk

15     that among these 100 soldiers there were certain persons wearing red and

16     black bandannas.  And you say:

17             "And I believe they must have been paramilitaries."

18             Could you tell me what you meant by this.

19        A.   Paramilitaries are reserve army or police.  They had ribbons on

20     their heads, black and red, and they were Arkan's army.

21        Q.   Apart from these ribbons red and black on their head, was there

22     anything else which you noticed on these gentlemen?

23        A.   They had black or dark uniforms, different type -- different from

24     those of the army, but they were not civilian clothes.  The uniforms were

25     some of them black, some of them camouflage, but these with the black

Page 3699

 1     uniforms and the ribbons were more dangerous.  Whether they were soldiers

 2     or paramilitaries, I don't know.

 3        Q.   And why do you say they were more dangerous?

 4        A.   They were more dangerous because they shot at random, and they

 5     killed you on the spot.  They did whatever they wanted.

 6        Q.   But have you seen these people you describe as paramilitary as

 7     engaging in such acts?

 8        A.   No, but that's what I believe.  I did not ask them, I did not

 9     speak to them.

10        Q.   And did you see that the soldiers and these black paramilitary

11     persons were going together or separate once they were getting off the

12     six lorries?

13        A.   They were together, together.

14        Q.   And what did they do together?

15        A.   They went towards the mountains looking for people.  The four

16     Pragas stayed at one place, and they were shooting.  We were -- the

17     Pragas were placed at big meadow, and they were shooting towards the

18     houses.

19        Q.   Did you see anybody operating these Pragas?

20        A.   No, I couldn't.  I just could see them from afar.  We were very

21     scared, you must understand.

22        Q.   Let me ask you:  Do you believe that Albanian villagers were

23     operating these Pragas on that day when they were firing?

24        A.   No, the Serbs.  The Serbs did all those things.  The Albanians

25     did not operate such equipment, they did not have them.

Page 3700

 1        Q.   I want to show you a map.  It's 65 ter number 615.08.  And if you

 2     can find on this map, could you please encircle where the village of

 3     Vata, is where you were living and where also these Pragas were put and

 4     the 100 people arrived, the 100 soldiers as you mentioned.  We can also

 5     enlarge it.  You just need to tell us whether you wish to have it

 6     enlarged.

 7        A.   Could you enlarge it a little bit because I cannot read the

 8     smaller script.

 9        Q.   We can enlarge it further if you want.  You need to tell us where

10     we have to enlarge it.  Where is Vata in relation to Kacanik?

11        A.   Yes, I can see Kacanik.

12        Q.   And in relation to Kacanik where is Vata?

13        A.   Vata is here, but I don't have a pen to mark it.

14        Q.   Can you give the witness a pen, please.

15        A.   Right here.

16        Q.   Can you encircle that, please, because it's not a full circle.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And can you on the right-hand side of that circle mark a number

19     1, please.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   You marked it on the left-hand side.  Thank you.

22             Can you now tell me where you found the four dead bodies later in

23     the day, and I'm referring to Mahmut Caka, Hebib Lama, Rraman Lama, and

24     Brahim Lama.  Could you encircle the location where you found these four

25     bodies.

Page 3701

 1        A.   These four men were found here on a hill.

 2        Q.   You've marked a big red dot to the left of the number 1, for the

 3     record.  Could you now on the left-hand side of that dot mark a number 2,

 4     please, on the left-hand side.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   You've marked a number 2 below that dot, for the record.

 7        A.   Yes, number 2.  I can't write very well with this pen.

 8        Q.   No problem.  It's enough.

 9             Could you tell us, that day -- the next day you were leaving

10     towards Macedonia you said.  Which way did you take to go towards

11     Macedonia?

12        A.   On the 15th of April we followed the Sharri road towards Tetove.

13     We went to Dragonac, Gllobocice, and Tetove.  However, they did not allow

14     us to go through so we went back.  On the 12th of April we went back

15     because the border was closed.  On the 13th the offensive was launched.

16     On the 14th of April we went back to Macedonia.

17        Q.   And which way did you take to go to Macedonia, which border did

18     you cross?

19        A.   Gllobocica.

20        Q.   Could you mark, if you find it on the map, the location where you

21     crossed the border.

22        A.   I can't see it very well.  My eyes are not that good, you know,

23     I'm trying to find Gllobocica, Doganovic.  Gllobocica is here.

24        Q.   Could you encircle Gllobocica, please.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 3702

 1        Q.   And mark a number 3 next to it, please.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Can you mark another number 3, nobody can read this.  Maybe below

 4     that circle or above that circle, that's maybe the best, above.

 5        A.   Here you mean.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  Can I seek to tender that map, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00663, Your Honours.

10             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

13             Mr. Djurdjic, do you have cross-examination?

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have a

15     few questions.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lama.  My name is

18     Veljko Djurdjic, a member of the Defence team of the accused,

19     Vlastimir Djordjevic.  I have with me Ms. O'Leary, also a member of our

20     team.  I have a few questions for you, and let me tell you at the outset

21     you are the most honest and sincere witness I've heard so far.  I have

22     very few questions in fact for you, just a few clarifications.  I'd like

23     to start with a few images.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up D002-5955.

25        Q.   While we are waiting for these photographs, I read your statement

Page 3703

 1     and I understood you to be saying that Dubrava is a large village and

 2     that there is --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat what there is

 4     within the village.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Dubrava is a big village.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   My question was whether Vata is within Dubrava.

 8        A.   Yes, it is within Dubrave.  They are adjacent to each other.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And within Vata there is a hamlet Lama, hamlet Safa,

10     and hamlet Tifek?

11        A.   Yes, the Lama, the Safa, and the Tifek neighbourhoods, they are

12     small neighbourhoods, but the whole area is called Vata comprising these

13     neighbourhoods.

14        Q.   Thank you.  We call these hamlets.  Mr. Lama, on this map we've

15     just seen where you drew the location of Vata, Dubrava is marked as a

16     different place.  Is there a distance between Vata and Dubrava; and if

17     so, what is the distance?

18        A.   There is no distance between them, they are adjacent to each

19     other.  There are some villages called Dubrava and Vata, but these are

20     adjacent to each other.  Some refer to them as Dubrave and some others as

21     Vata.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Lama, do you recognise the location on this

23     image?

24        A.   I cannot see very well without my glasses.  I'll try and have a

25     look at it with my glasses on.

Page 3704

 1             Yes, I do recognise this photograph.  This is the house of

 2     Nebi Lami, or rather, the house of his son who was killed.  This one, a

 3     little bit further up, is of --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get the name.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and further up are the houses in

 6     Tifek neighbourhood.  There's a road, and that's why I can recognise

 7     these houses.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So this is the Tifek hamlet; right?

10        A.   Yes, we can see the Tifek neighbourhood beyond these houses, but

11     if you can enlarge it, that would be better.  The houses in the

12     foreground are the houses of the Lama family.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should we tender

15     photographs one by one or tender them as a set?

16             JUDGE PARKER:  How many do you have, Mr. Djurdjic?

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] There are more, there are several

18     sets of photographs with at least three in each.  This is one document

19     within this set, and I have another, and a third.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Just one moment.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  We will use one exhibit number for each of your

23     sets or groups of photos.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Now I

25     would like to have photograph number 2, please.

Page 3705

 1        Q.   Mr. Lama, what can we see on this photograph?

 2        A.   On this photograph I can see very well the houses, and I can tell

 3     you the names of the persons they belong to.  This house here is the

 4     house of Brahim Lami.  This one here is the house of Rraman Lami.  Next

 5     to it is a stable.  He was killed, massacred.  This is the house of

 6     Rraman's brother.  This is my house.  You can only see the roof of my

 7     house.  This here is the house of a relative of mine --

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  you can, the roof of the

 9     house.  Can you encircle the house of your house.

10        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] You can't see it very well from the trees.

11        Q.   What you can see, encircle it.  I note that the witness put a red

12     dot above the roof.  What is the name of this hamlet, Mr. Lama?

13        A.   [Albanian interpretation] This is the Lama hamlet.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Next photograph,

15     please, number 3.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Because this is how marked, it must be tendered

17     separately.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would

19     like to tender it now.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00087, Your Honours.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Lama, do you recognise this hill?

23        A.   Yes, I do, very well.  It is called Kodra e Keqe.  Here up is the

24     road coming out from the asphalt road.  The asphalt road is below here.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is that a hill between Lama and Vata hamlets, between

Page 3706

 1     Lama and the rest of Vata?

 2        A.   Between Lama and Vata there is a stream, but the ground is not

 3     flat.  This is the highest hill between the Vata and -- the Vatas and the

 4     Lamas.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next image, please.

 7        Q.   Mr. Lama, which part of the village is this, what can we see

 8     here?

 9        A.   This is the same photograph as the one we saw previously.  Here

10     is the asphalt road, below here -- here is a part of the woods that has

11     been cut off, and from this side here, this area is called Dubrava.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this:  In your statement you say that

13     trenches were dug.  Is there any of these photographs where you could

14     mark the location where the trenches were dug?

15        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] It can't be seen here, there were no

16     trenches here.

17        Q.   And on which photograph could we possibly see the trenches?

18        A.   The first picture we saw.

19        Q.   The first picture.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we bring that picture up

21     again.

22             THE WITNESS: [B/C/S interpretation] You can't see it very well,

23     but it's in that area.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could I ask you now, although you say it can't be seen very well,

Page 3707

 1     just to mark where roughly the place was.

 2        A.   [Albanian interpretation] Here is my house, and they should be

 3     here on this hill that is kind of visible here.

 4        Q.   Here, it was here --

 5        A.   At this line.  There is a meadow here, and here there are trees.

 6     It's right there.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lama.  Put an X where your house was and the

 8     number.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  And now above this upper line put number 2.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   So 1 is your house, and 2 is where the trenches were.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I tender the exhibit now.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00088, Your Honours.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May I now ask for the

17     photograph 4 to be shown.  That's 4, but are there any more images?  Can

18     we see 5.  This is the same picture we've already seen.

19             THE WITNESS: [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, the same.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  It's the same.  Next one,

21     please.  It's the same picture.  Thank you.

22             Since they are a repetition, there's no need for the witness to

23     give any more comments.  Again, I'd like to tender them.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Images 3, 4, and 6 of this set have not been

Page 3708

 1     exhibited, so they'll become the one exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00089, Your Honours.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Can we

 4     now call up D002-5966.

 5        Q.   Mr. Lama, what do we see here?

 6        A.   I see my place here, where I live.  Here -- down here is the

 7     asphalt road.  Dubrava is on this side, Dubrava and Vata.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Witness motioning towards himself.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vata and Dubrava.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.

11        Q.   Is this again your home village from a different angle?

12        A.   I recognise this, but it's another Mahala.

13        Q.   What's the name of this Mahala?

14        A.   It's called Dugovi and Neziraj.  It's near the asphalt road.

15        Q.   And how far are these houses from yours?

16        A.   Not more than half a kilometre.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Lama, what hamlet do we see here?

20        A.   It's the same place, Dugovi.

21        Q.   All right.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the next photograph.

23        Q.   Mr. Lama, what do we see now?

24        A.   This is called Neziraj.  This here is the asphalt road leading to

25     Tetovo.

Page 3709

 1        Q.   Is this upper Vata?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document into

 5     evidence.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  This image will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00090, Your Honours.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I kindly ask you D002-5961.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lama, can you describe what you recognise here.

10        A.   [Albanian interpretation] On this photograph I can see very well;

11     however, I'm not sure whether this one is Ilir Caka or Rraman Lami.  They

12     were killed, and they were buried in the cemetery.  I knew them very

13     well, and they were very close to my house.

14        Q.   Which cemetery is this?

15        A.   This is the civilian graveyard in the Lama village.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is that part of the martyrs' cemetery?

17        A.   In the left side are the civilian graves, and on the other side

18     there are seven or eight graves of people who were killed during the war.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we see image number 2.

20        Q.   Mr. Lama, could you comment on this photograph.

21        A.   I can tell you the people by names whose graves these are.  This

22     is Rraman's; this is Brahim's; this is Ilir Caka's.  These graves are

23     only 200 metres far from my house.

24        Q.   Thank you.  On this mast, is this the Albanian flag flying?

25     Whose flag is it?

Page 3710

 1        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] It's the Albanian flag.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next photo, please.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lama, what do we see on the tombstones?  Who do they belong

 5     to?

 6        A.   [Albanian interpretation] It's Rraman's tombstone, Brahim's

 7     tombstone; this one here is Ilir's tombstone; and here this is Hebib's,

 8     it cannot be seen on the photograph.  And three other graves do not have

 9     completed tombstones.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Are there any symbols on the tombstones; and if there

11     are, could you please comment on them.

12        A.   What kind of symbols, you mean flags or something else?  I don't

13     understand what you mean by "symbols."  All of them were civilians.

14        Q.   Well, everything that you can see and recognise apart from the

15     photographs and the names.

16        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, this is Rraman, this is Ilir Caka,

17     this is Brahim Lama -- well, I can hardly see it, but Rraman, I'm

18     100 per cent sure because I can recognise him on the stone.  Hebib Lama

19     down there.  And there are three or four people down there, Caka, Jakup,

20     and others.

21        Q.   What else do you recognise?

22        A.   Well, I recognise the stones and the names of the people.

23        Q.   Do we see any symbols on the tombstones that are recognisable?

24        A.   [Albanian interpretation] I don't see any symbols.  There are no

25     symbols.  This is Rraman here.  There is a book here, it looks like a

Page 3711

 1     book, because he was a pupil, Ilir Caka.  The monument is in the form of

 2     a book.

 3        Q.   What I want to ask you is this:  You can see to the left of this

 4     tombstone, next to the image, the face, there is something marked there,

 5     engraved.  Do you recognise what that is or not?

 6        A.   This is Rraman Lama, and you see the name and surname there.

 7     This is Rraman, his picture, and his name, surname, the date when he fell

 8     victim as well.

 9        Q.   But, Mr. Lama, to the right of the face do you see something

10     marked there, engraved there, from the level of the head down to where

11     the torso starts?

12        A.   Right here you mean?  Where are you asking?  [B/C/S

13     interpretation] Here.

14        Q.   So next to the image of the person to the right you can see that

15     there is something marked there, it's lighter than the background.

16        A.   [Albanian interpretation] This one here?

17        Q.   That's what I mean, yes.

18        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] Well, I can't recognise it.  It's just

19     some light reflection.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the next photograph,

22     please.

23        Q.   Well, these are again photographs of the persons that we've

24     already seen.  Can we move to the next photograph -- no.  Okay.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Then, Your Honours, I would like

Page 3712

 1     to tender those photographs into evidence.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  That set will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  D00091, Your Honours.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lama.  You can take off your glasses.  We won't

 6     need you to look at the screen anymore.

 7             Mr. Lama, we are now talking about March 1999.  Who did you live

 8     with in your household in March and April?

 9        A.   [Albanian Interpretation] I lived with my own children, my wife

10     and my children in my house.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And any other relatives, parents, brothers, cousins,

12     uncles, did you live together with them in a communal household, or did

13     you live apart?

14        A.   Not in my house, no.  I was with my family, my children.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell me, the houses in the village, were the

16     yards walled off?

17        A.   No, no.  There are no walls.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And please tell me, how did they take the hunting

19     rifle from you?

20        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] They took the hunting rifle -- well, I

21     forget now but it was two years before the war.

22        Q.   And what kind of a rifle was it, do you remember?

23        A.   Yes, I do remember, it was actually 1994.

24        Q.   1994, what kind of a rifle was it, do you know what make?

25        A.   It was a hunting rifle used for hunting, if you know that.

Page 3713

 1        Q.   Yes, I do.

 2        A.   It was R-12.

 3        Q.   M-12.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 5     speak into the microphone because the interpreters can't hear him.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had all the papers for the rifle.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Who gave you the documents?

 9        A.   The police.

10        Q.   What police?

11        A.   In Kacanik.

12        Q.   In Kacanik.  Thank you.

13             Mr. Lama, I just want to check if the years listed here are

14     correct.  It says here that from 1975 until 1997, you lived in Germany;

15     is that correct?

16        A.   [Albanian interpretation] Yes, correct.

17        Q.   And did you make any contributions to Bujar Bukoshi's government?

18        A.   [Albanian Interpretation] No.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             Mr. Lama, before March 1999 did you hear about the KLA at all or

21     UCK?

22        A.   [Albanian interpretation] No.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And how did you know that other villagers were not in

24     the KLA?

25        A.   In my village there were no members of the KLA.

Page 3714

 1        Q.   Very well.  And why then those who dug the trenches, who were

 2     members of the KLA, why were they doing that?

 3        A.   They dug the trenches for defence purposes because they feared

 4     that there would be an attack, and they opened those trenches.  The Serbs

 5     also had trenches and bunkers.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Well, were those trenches used to defend the village?

 7        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] No.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You said that half of them were in uniform and half

 9     of them were in civilian clothes.  How do you know that?

10        A.   [Albanian interpretation] Yes, because I saw them.  They were

11     close to my house.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know, can you tell me in paragraph 10 of

13     your statement you say --

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order for you to

15     be able to follow, I marked each paragraph with a number.  So when I say

16     that it's in paragraph 10, it's in paragraph 10 of all of the versions of

17     the statements, English, Albanian alike.

18        Q.   Mr. Lama, in paragraph -- you say that one day before the 4th of

19     April [as interpreted] an order came to -- for the KLA to leave the

20     village.  Who ordered that?

21        A.   I did not see who gave the order, but we heard.  There was word.

22     They told us that we had to leave our village because the Serbs were

23     coming.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And when did the KLA leave the village, at what time,

25     do you know that?

Page 3715

 1        A.   They left on the 12th, early in the morning.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, I'm not sure that we have the same

 3     statement.  You have mentioned first a passage that says half of them

 4     were in civilian clothes and half in uniform.  I can't find that

 5     anywhere.  And then with your last lot of questions you said that

 6     something happened on the 4th of April, and I can't find that anywhere in

 7     the statement I have.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I did not mention the 4th of

 9     April, and let me tell you I may have made a mistake about this half and

10     half military/civilian.  I do apologise.  What I said about half and

11     half, what was confirmed, that's from Milosevic transcript, page 4401,

12     lines 7 and 8, there were 20 of them, but half wore uniforms and half

13     wore civilian clothes.  I do apologise.  It's in the Milosevic

14     transcript.  Let me just ask it.

15        Q.   Is this what I read out correct, Mr. Lama?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I did say that.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think that

19     we need to show the transcript now.  Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Lama, I may have made a mistake.  So the day before, we're

21     talking about the 13th of April, not the 4th of April, so the day before

22     you say that they had left the village.  Okay.

23             In paragraph 11 you say that on the 23rd of March you went to

24     Urosevac because you heard that Urosevac would be attacked.  Who did you

25     hear that from and who was supposed to actually attack it?

Page 3716

 1        A.   Ferizaj would be attacked by the Serb army, and we were told to

 2     go and get our family from Ferizaj.  We took our tractors and drove back

 3     together with the family to the village because we heard, as I said, that

 4     the Serbs would attack.  They were shooting all the time.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And were there not Serb forces in Urosevac even

 6     before when you brought your family there?

 7        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, there were Serb forces in Urosevac.

 8     [Albanian interpretation] Yes, there were Serb forces, but they didn't

 9     kill the people at that time.  People left towards the mountains.

10     However, they were beating them and doing every other evil thing to them.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 12 you say that NATO launched the

12     air-strikes during the night.  What do you know?  What were the targets?

13     What did you see?

14        A.   I saw at 8.00 p.m., I was on my balcony when they targeted

15     Picrrak.  NATO would bomb during the night, and the Serbs would shell us

16     during the day.  We were amongst two fires.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When you headed to Macedonia a week before the

18     13th of April, did you go across the Sar a mountain towards Tetovo,

19     towards Macedonia?

20        A.   We climbed the mountain to cross at Luboten, but because the snow

21     was very high and it was very cold, the children couldn't cope so we went

22     back home.  On the 14th of April we left again by car and tractors to

23     Gllobocica by the main road.  When we got there we were stopped.  We had

24     some small children, they were sick, and I told one of the soldiers, the

25     Serbs, and I asked him, Can we leave the convoy, please, because the

Page 3717

 1     children are ill.  That soldier asked for a thousand Deutschemarks, and I

 2     said, I don't have that money.  And he then allowed us to go ahead.  The

 3     army was going before us.  We followed them, and then at a turn they

 4     allowed us to go by ourselves, but we had to give them money.  I paid

 5     500 Deutschemarks.  There were three families with tractors that -- we

 6     were allowed to cross.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you about that occasion.  One week before you

 8     headed across the mountain.  You didn't take the road to get to

 9     Macedonia; am I right?

10        A.   A week earlier we tried to climb the mountain, but we went back

11     to the village because we couldn't -- because of the snow, we couldn't go

12     across.  The offensive caught us in our houses, and then we went to the

13     mountain to hide.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And the others who didn't have small children went on

15     across the mountain and actually reached Macedonia; am I right?

16        A.   The ones who did not have small children, I don't know.  Whoever

17     was able to walk, they crossed the mountains; the ones that were not able

18     went back to the village.  There were about 70 or 80 of them.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 15 you mentioned a small forest called

20     Picrak, if I read it correctly, and you say -- Picrak, okay.  And now I

21     would like to know how far this wooded area is away from the village of

22     Baince.

23        A.   It's next to it.  Picrrak is next to Baince.  Not even 500 metres

24     between them.  Picrrak is a mountain, the Drzava mountain.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And how far was it from your village?  I'm talking

Page 3718

 1     about Baince.

 2        A.   You mean as the crow flies or by road?  By road it's about

 3     7 kilometres away.  As the crow flies, I don't know, maybe 3 or

 4     4 kilometres, not even that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On the 13th of April you say -- well, 1999, you say

 6     that you saw Pragas and soldiers.  Where were you at 5.00 a.m.?

 7        A.   On the 13th of April we left home at about 5.00 in the morning.

 8     We went up to a hill.  The Pragas were stationed on the field or

 9     meadow --

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  the story short.  I want to

11     know where you were at 5.00 a.m.?

12        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] I left the house at 5.00, and I headed

13     towards the woods.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Was it daylight at 5.00 a.m.?

15        A.   No not yet.  It was still a bit dark.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now tell me, how far is Slatina from your village?

17        A.   [Albanian interpretation] It's not too far from us, 2 kilometres

18     maybe.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And how far is your village from Brod?

20        A.   Brodi is a little bit further, 6 kilometres away.  I'm not very

21     sure, but I'm calculating in my mind.  It takes half an hour to walk

22     there.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You stated that you had planned a shelter in the

24     gorge in case of an attack and that you had brought some food there, but

25     were there any plans to dig trenches around the village?

Page 3719

 1        A.   No.  The whole village, the people of the village, went towards

 2     the stream to hide because the army were shelling and shooting.  There

 3     was a plane flying over, observing.  Later on during the night we would

 4     go back to our homes.  During the day we went to the stream; at night we

 5     would be at home.  We did not have any trenches or bunkers or things of

 6     that sort.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 22 you say that when the soldiers

 8     entered the village we all went out of the houses and started walking

 9     towards the Ljuboten mountain.  Can you please tell me yes or no, is that

10     correct?

11        A.   On the 13th of April?

12        Q.   Yes.  I'm reading from your statement, and I'm just asking you

13     whether this is correct or not.  When the soldiers entered the village,

14     we all went out of the houses and started walking towards the Ljuboten

15     mountain.

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Yes, we wanted to go and take shelter, but

17     this was to be safe, that's all.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You were not an eye-witness of the killing of the

19     four people by the path up there by the gorge; am I right?

20        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] Yes, you're right.

21        Q.   You were not an eye-witness of the death of the seven people from

22     other hamlets; am I right again?

23        A.   [Albanian interpretation] Those seven that were killed, I know

24     about them.  But about those four that were killed, I saw them because I

25     was about 200 metres away --

Page 3720

 1        Q.   Let's take this slowly.  My question was:  Am I right when I say

 2     that you were not an eye-witness of the death of the seven people.  So

 3     did you see that?  Were you an eye-witness of that incident or not?

 4     That's the only thing I'm asking you.

 5        A.   Those four, yes; the other seven, no.

 6        Q.   So you saw how they were killed?

 7        A.   I was together with my wife.  My wife was in the meadow.  I was

 8     down in the stream.  I did not see them at the moment they were killed,

 9     but I saw them lying there.  My wife told me about their killing, and I

10     came out of that stream, and I said, Let them kill me as well.  The army

11     was still there.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And do you agree with me that all those 11 people

13     were fit for military service?

14        A.   Rraman was more than 50 years old.  He was not able to serve the

15     KLA.  Brahim was a student, 18 or 19 years old.  One of his legs was

16     10 centimetres shorter, so he was not an able-bodied man that could serve

17     in the KLA.  Brahim was also -- Hebib --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was not also an able-bodied man.

20     Nobody was able-bodied men --

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So you don't agree with me?

23        A.   [B/C/S interpretation] No, they were not fit to serve in the KLA.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lama, for answering my questions.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

Page 3721

 1     This completes my cross-examination.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

 3             Is there re-examination, Mr. Neuner?

 4             MR. NEUNER:  I have a very few questions, Your Honour, and maybe

 5     I could address them after the break.  I would streamline everything.  I

 6     think we're not talking about more than a few minutes.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have, then, our first break.  We

 8     must have a break now, and after the break Mr. Neuner will have a few

 9     questions for you.  We will resume now at 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Neuner.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

14        Q.   Good morning, Witness, again.  You were asked by my learned

15     colleague about the KLA leaving Vata, and you responded the KLA left on

16     the 12th, early in the morning.  I wanted to ask you in which month and

17     which year was the KLA leaving on the 12th Vata?

18        A.   It was April, the fourth month of the year, the 12th of April.

19        Q.   And which year, please.

20        A.   1999.

21        Q.   And how did you find out that the KLA was leaving that morning?

22        A.   When I woke up in the morning they were not there anymore.

23        Q.   Meaning at the trenches or ...

24        A.   Yes, they had left that place.  I don't know where they went from

25     there.  I did not ask them.  They did not tell us.

Page 3722

 1        Q.   Then referring to the KLA trenches, I wanted to ask you when the

 2     Serb forces in lorries, the about 100 men, came to Vata on the 13th of

 3     April, were these trenches used to prevent them coming to the village?

 4        A.   No, they were not used to prevent the Serbs.  The Serbs could not

 5     be prevented.  The Serbs took their own positions, and we had nothing to

 6     do with them.

 7        Q.   Were the Serb forces who came to Vata on the 13th of April shot

 8     at from the Albanian side?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   You were referring to four persons, Mahmut Caka, Hebib Lami,

11     Rraman Lami, and Brahim Lami, who you had found somewhere in the

12     [indiscernible] dead on the 13th of April.  Then you said to my learned

13     colleague a moment ago that you had seen them alive some 200 metres away.

14     Could you explain where was your position when you last saw them alive?

15        A.   We were at a meadow close to a stream.  The women and the

16     children were on the meadow, and they saw them when they were caught, and

17     they marched them up and down the village three or four times, and then

18     they killed Brahim, Hebib, and the others.

19        Q.   Did you, yourself, see the four persons?

20        A.   After they were killed I went there and saw them after they were

21     killed.

22        Q.   What time of the day was it when you saw them?

23        A.   It was 6.30 or maybe 7.00 in the morning.

24        Q.   And when -- about what time did the women who were on the meadow

25     see the men last alive?

Page 3723

 1        A.   6.00.  We had left together with the women --

 2        Q.   Okay.  I just wanted to know the time.  Then you saw the bodies,

 3     and they were transported to Vata.  Can you tell me what clothes were the

 4     bodies wearing?

 5        A.   Civilian clothes, normal clothes, track suit bottoms, jeans,

 6     shoes.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think these questions were fit

 9     for direct examination.  I gave no cause for these questions in my cross.

10             MR. NEUNER:  I can respond because you questioned that -- or you

11     put --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  No, not "you."  Address us.

13             MR. NEUNER:  Excuse me.  I wanted to put that the counsel has put

14     to this witness that the four persons were KLA members, and I'm trying to

15     establish their status as a possible combatant, Your Honours, by asking

16     about the clothes.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  The questioning, Mr. Djurdjic, as far as it's gone

18     appears to be in order because you have raised the question whether they

19     may or may not have been combatants.

20             Please carry on, Mr. Neuner.

21             MR. NEUNER:

22        Q.   Did you see or find any weapons on the bodies of the four men

23     which you transported with others to Vata?

24        A.   They did not have anything at all.

25        Q.   No weapons you mean?

Page 3724

 1        A.   They had absolutely no weapons on them.

 2        Q.   And then I'm asking about the seven other members who -- of the

 3     Albanian side who were later that day brought also to Vata and who were

 4     dead.  Did you see any or find any weapons on them because you were also

 5     involved in the burial I understand?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   What clothes were these seven men wearing?

 8        A.   Civilian clothes, simple, normal clothes, normal shoes, jeans.

 9        Q.   Did they wear any uniforms from the KLA or KLA insignia?

10        A.   Absolutely not.

11        Q.   Then I have a few questions relating to the issue of NATO

12     air-strikes raised by my learned colleague.  Can you tell me in April --

13     sorry, in March and April 1999, were there any NATO air-strikes launched

14     on Vata itself?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Were there any air-strikes launched on Dubrava itself in the

17     [overlapping speakers]... time-period?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   So when you left on the 13th -- or after the 13th of April, 1999,

20     did you leave because you were afraid of NATO air-strikes?

21        A.   I feared the Serbs, not NATO.  NATO intervened to help us, not to

22     exterminate us.

23        Q.   You mentioned in your testimony that even a week before the 13th

24     of April you tried to leave Vata towards Ljuboten mountain.  On that

25     occasion did you leave because of fear of NATO air-strikes?

Page 3725

 1        A.   I only feared the Serbs.  In April NATO was -- NATO did not start

 2     the air-strikes in April; they started on the 24th of March.  And NATO

 3     only targeted the positions, the tanks, and the bunkers of the Serb

 4     forces.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions,

 7     Your Honour.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Lama, you'll be pleased to know that that

10     concludes the questions for you.  The Chamber has been assisted by your

11     evidence and by your earlier statement that you've given.  We would like

12     to thank you very much for being prepared to come to The Hague again.

13     You may now of course leave and go back to your normal affairs, and the

14     court officer will assist you out.  Thank you, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Nilsen.

18             MS. NILSEN:  Yes, Your Honours.  The next witness is

19     Mr. Isa Raka, who will testify pursuant to 92 bis.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

21             MS. NILSEN:  When he is ready.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It would be obviously extremely convenient if this

23     witness could be concluded today, if both counsel would keep that in

24     mind.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 3726

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Would you please read aloud the

 2     affirmation which is shown to you now.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  ISA RAKA

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

 8             Ms. Nilsen has some questions for you.

 9             MS. NILSEN:  Thank you.

10                           Examination by Ms. Nilsen:

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Raka.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Will you please state your full name and birth date for the

14     record.

15        A.   Isa Raka.  I was born on the 17th of September, 1971.

16        Q.   Mr. Raka, did you provide a statement to the Office of the

17     Prosecution in 1999?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And did you in September 2006 provide additional information and

20     give an amended version of your previous statement to the Office of the

21     Prosecution?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have a chance to read through these statements before

24     coming to court today?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3727

 1             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honours, I seek to tender the Rule 89(F)

 2     statement from the witness Isa Raka from 8th of September, 2006.  That's

 3     65 ter number 02301.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  That will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00664, Your Honours.

 6             MS. NILSEN:

 7        Q.   And, Mr. Raka, did you also testify on the 19th of September,

 8     2006, in the Milutinovic et al. case?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you have a chance to review the transcript together with a

11     language assistant before coming to court today?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are you satisfied that the information you gave then in 2006 is

14     true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief, and would you

15     provide the same answers today?

16        A.   Yes, it is accurate.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. NILSEN:  And I would also like to seek, Your Honours, to

19     tender 65 ter 05087 which is the transcript of the testimony in the

20     Milutinovic et al. case.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00665, Your Honours.

23             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honours, I would also like to seek to tender

24     the exhibits that were associated with Mr. Raka's testimony last time,

25     which are two marked photographs.  They were annotated by the witness in

Page 3728

 1     his previous testimony.  I will present for the witness also unmarked

 2     versions of these photographs.  But since he's testifying pursuant to

 3     Rule 92 bis, I would like to tender these associated exhibits as well.

 4     They are 65 ter number 05088 and 05089.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 05088 will be assigned P00666; and

 7     65 ter number 05089 will be assigned P00667, Your Honours.

 8             MS. NILSEN:  I would now like to read out the court summary for

 9     the witness, and after that I have just a few questions for the witness.

10             The witness is a Kosovo Albanian Muslim from the town Kacanik.

11     The witness describes that from the beginning of March 1999 there was an

12     increase in police activity in his town.  On the 27th of March, 1999, the

13     witness observed two military jeeps and a white Lada Niva vehicle driving

14     into the lime factory situated on the other side of the Lepence river

15     from his house.  About 20 to 30 police officers and two officers wearing

16     VJ uniforms came out of the vehicles.  The witness recognised the deputy

17     police commander in Kacanik giving orders to the others.  The witness

18     observed the officers taking positions on the upper part of this factory,

19     carrying automatic rifles and mortars.  They started shooting towards the

20     houses on the other side of the river and two guards of the factory were

21     later found dead.  A bullet hit the witness's pregnant wife, and this

22     bullet went through her right hip.

23             On the 28th of March, 1999, the witness and a large group of

24     people started walking through the woods towards Macedonia.  The witness

25     was in a group of 13 and 14 people who helped carry his wounded wife on a

Page 3729

 1     stretcher.  When they came to the Macedonian border it was blocked, and

 2     about 700 people had to stay in the woods for two days.  The witness and

 3     his group managed to contact some locals who helped them eventually cross

 4     the border to Macedonia.  The witness's wife was sent to hospital in

 5     Skopje, and the doctors removed the child which was already dead.  The

 6     witness's wife subsequently died on the 5th of April, 1999, due to blood

 7     loss.

 8             This is the end of the summary.

 9        Q.   Mr. Raka, we know from your statement that around 10.00 on the

10     27th of March, 1999, you went to see your neighbour Jakup Jakupi whose

11     house was located up to the hills from yours and that you had a view to

12     the lime factory from this house; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   How far would you say you approximately were standing observing

15     these things happening outside the lime factory, from the window you were

16     standing in to the factory?

17        A.   Approximately 100 metres as the crow flies, more or less

18     100 metres.

19        Q.   These approximately 20 or 30 policemen that you saw parking

20     outside the factory, what were they doing after they parked their

21     vehicles?  What did you observe they were doing exactly?

22        A.   They got off their jeeps.  The police, whom I recognised who was

23     in the white Lada Niva, started to give them instructions to direct them

24     to the places where they had to go.

25        Q.   And this person who gave instruction, did you recognise this

Page 3730

 1     person?

 2        A.   Yes.  From what I could observe he looked like Lubisha.

 3        Q.   And that would be, according to your knowledge ...

 4        A.   He was a policeman.  Later on I learned that he was the deputy

 5     commander of the police station in Kacanik.  He lived in my neighbourhood

 6     in an apartment.

 7        Q.   And after you saw this person gave this -- deputy commander gave

 8     this order to the rest of the group, what did this group of officers and

 9     soldiers do?

10        A.   They started to crawl around the factory.  And when they reached

11     the factory, they climbed the stairs.

12        Q.   Did you see them taking up positions inside the factory?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you just describe briefly where you saw them taking up these

15     positions.

16        A.   They climbed the stairs and appeared on the windows of the

17     factory building.

18             MS. NILSEN:  If you could go to 65 ter number 02310, I would like

19     to zoom in on the first picture which is K022-3167 -- or 68 -- yeah,

20     exactly, this is the one.

21        Q.   I would like you, Mr. Raka, to just describe what you see on this

22     picture and from where is it taken.

23        A.   This photograph was taken from the position from where I was

24     observing, more or less 1 or 2 metres' difference from the place from

25     where I was observing.

Page 3731

 1        Q.   From your neighbour's place you mean?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. NILSEN:  And then if you could go to the next picture which

 4     is K022-3167.

 5        Q.   This is the same lime factory from another angle; is that right,

 6     Mr. Raka?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Would you be able to show us where you saw these people park

 9     their cars and taking up positions in this picture?

10        A.   They parked their vehicles somewhere here.

11        Q.   Sorry, I've lost the connection with the picture.

12             I would like you, Mr. Raka, just to put a cross where you mean

13     they parked their vehicles, if you are able to mark that on the picture.

14        A.   Here approximately.  There were three jeeps parked around this

15     area, but they occupied a larger area obviously.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just mark with a bigger cross so it's

17     easier for the Court to see.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             And then I just would like you to mark where you observed the

21     forces taking up positions inside the building.

22        A.   The police positions were here, at these windows here.  One of

23     the jeeps went down to the factory and then returned, and then those men

24     from that jeep took positions up here.

25        Q.   And can I just ask you, is this the highest building in the town

Page 3732

 1     as far as you know?

 2        A.   Yes, more or less.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. NILSEN:  I would like to tender this picture.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 6             MS. NILSEN:  Thank you.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00668, Your Honours.

 8             MS. NILSEN:  And could we then have the last picture of the same

 9     exhibit zoomed in which is K0223169, I believe.  Thank you.

10        Q.   And if you could please, Mr. Raka, just point out to us with a

11     number 1 the house where you were staying and observing these things

12     happened outside and inside the lime fabric, the house of your neighbour,

13     that's number 1.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And then I would like you to put number 2 next to a house that

16     you owned or that you lived together with your wife that's deceased.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             You provided to the Office of the Prosecution these pictures when

20     you testified in 2006; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you take them yourself?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you remember approximately when you took this picture?

25        A.   I don't know exactly.

Page 3733

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

 2        A.   I think it was in 2002.  2002, sometime in 2002.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And the other pictures that we looked at that

 4     you took them from the house that you were staying, a neighbour house,

 5     but which position is this picture taken from?

 6        A.   This was taken from the balcony of the factory.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in the beginning of April your

 8     wife died at a hospital in Macedonia due to blood loss from the wound

 9     that she got when she was shot?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. NILSEN:  Then I have no further confession for the

13     examination-in-chief.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Ms. Nilsen.

15             MS. NILSEN:  We would also like to seek to tender this picture.

16     Sorry.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             MS. NILSEN:  Thank you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00669, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let this photograph

22     remain on the screen, please.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Raka.  I'm attorney

25     Veljko Djurdjic, member of the Defence team of the accused,

Page 3734

 1     Vlastimir Djordjevic; and with me is Marie O'Leary, a member of our team.

 2     I have a few questions for you.  If something is unclear in my questions,

 3     please say so and I will try to rephrase.  What struck me is that it says

 4     here that you gave the first statement between the 12th and the 26th of

 5     November, 1999; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So you gave your statement over a period of 14 days to a

 8     representative of the OTP?

 9        A.   No, that's not correct.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So what is correct then?

11        A.   I gave my first statement in 1999.  Several days later they came

12     again to make some amendments.

13        Q.   Thank you.  As I read your statement I didn't understand whether

14     you actually were employed at any point in your life.

15        A.   I worked in 1990.  I was employed for six months in a firm.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And when we're talking about the firm, this factory,

17     is this the lime factory?  What did this factory produce?

18        A.   It produced lime.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Was this a state-owned factory?

20        A.   I don't know.  Maybe it was at the time.  I know that there were

21     people working there before that time because during this period, for

22     some time the employees did not go to work.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And there was security in the factory at that time,

24     in March 1999?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3735

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And your brother, did he work in the municipality in

 2     Kacanik?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What was his name?

 5        A.   Gezim.

 6        Q.   Were there other Albanians working in the municipality of

 7     Kacanik?

 8        A.   I don't know.  He worked as a guard there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And on the 27th of March, in the afternoon, did you

10     hear that the police station in Kacanik was attacked?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know where the village of Bob is located?

13        A.   Based on this photograph, it's on the other side of the factory.

14        Q.   Now I see the photographs.  Are you referring to the photographs

15     022368?

16        A.   [Previous translation continues]...  23168.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Well, is it behind the hill, that village, or can we

18     see it on the photograph?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please explain "yes."  So can we see the

21     village, or is it behind the hill so we can't see it?  Which is it?

22        A.   The houses right behind the factory are the houses of Bob

23     village.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So you had a very good view of the village of Bob.

25     Well, were you able to see or hear any gun-fire in the village of Bob on

Page 3736

 1     the 27th of March in the afternoon?

 2        A.   No, there wasn't any gun-fire.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And from that hill to your house, how far is it?

 4        A.   As the crow flies or by road?

 5        Q.   As the crow flies.

 6        A.   Two-hundred metres possibly, more or less.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I had information that around 1800 hours on the

 8     27th of March an attack was launched from the factory on a military

 9     column that was in the village of Bob.  Well, did you hear anything about

10     that?

11        A.   No, I didn't hear about that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We have this photograph 223618 in front of us, and

13     having read your statements I concluded - and this is what you

14     confirmed - that you took those photographs in 2002.  But were you

15     standing on the staircase when you took this first photograph, 68, the

16     one in the upper left-hand corner, were you standing on the staircase

17     when you took this photograph?

18        A.   Yes, in my neighbour's yard on the staircase a little bit lower

19     from the position from where I was observing.

20        Q.   Further down or further up?

21        A.   Lower.  I was further up, but the photograph was taken from a

22     position further down.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement you note that you were in the

24     basement of your neighbour's house and that you looked through the

25     window.

Page 3737

 1        A.   This part here in the photograph on the second row is the

 2     basement.

 3        Q.   So this photograph that we looked at a little while ago was not

 4     taken from the location where you were on the 27th of March, 1999; am I

 5     right?

 6        A.   Which photograph are you referring to?

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back to the

 8     photographs.  So K002-3168.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took this photograph from the

10     staircase of my neighbour's yard but not from the position from where I

11     was observing.  The position I took the photograph from is a little bit

12     lower.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Raka.

15             Mr. Raka, in paragraph 14 of your statement, the one from 2006,

16     in the second sentence it says:

17             "The police officers lined up, got down on the ground, and

18     started crawling around the factory."

19             Is that correct?

20        A.   Can you ask the question again, please.

21        Q.   Let me read a portion of your statement, that's paragraph 14,

22     second sentence.

23             "The police officers lined up, got down on the ground, and

24     started crawling around the factory."

25             And now I'm asking you is that correct?

Page 3738

 1        A.   Some of them were crawling, some of them were walking low, but

 2     some of them were definitely crawling.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Raka.  Am I right when I say that you were not an

 4     eye-witness of the death of Halil Nikoci and Shefket Demi who were guards

 5     in the factory?

 6        A.   No, I didn't, but I know that they were killed at the factory.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in the 2006 statement you say that you heard

 8     about it the next day from Halil's son.  And in the statement that you

 9     gave in 1999 you say:

10             "I know that their bodies were lying at the factory for a long

11     time, and dogs ate them."

12        A.   I gave the statement after the war, and this was on the basis of

13     the information I had, and the information that I had was that their

14     bodies had been mauled by dogs, stray dogs.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right when I say that you did not see, yourself,

16     the killing of Jonuz, who you mention in paragraph 18?

17        A.   No, I didn't.  However, I know that he was killed on the road

18     close to my neighbour's house.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And tell me, you also did not see the killing of an

20     old man whom you mention in paragraph 19?

21        A.   I didn't.  I only heard from his son that he had left his father

22     at home killed by bullets.  When we were going to Macedonia, I learned

23     that information then.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You were not there in your house, in your yard, when

25     your wife was wounded; am I right?

Page 3739

 1        A.   I was in the basement of my neighbour.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And just one more thing, Mr. Raka.  In your

 3     statement, the statement that you gave in 1999, there is no mention of

 4     what I'm about to read from paragraph 22 of your 2006 statement.

 5             "On the 28th of March, 1999, we saw people from the other end of

 6     Kacanik pass through our area.  They told us that the police had taken

 7     away Sefedin Beqa's two sons and that Hamid Berisha had been killed.

 8     They told us that the police was going from house to house in the

 9     neighbourhood around Ramadan Agushi.  Those people left their homes and

10     were leaving town.  My family and all our neighbours then decided to

11     leave before the police came."

12             So what I've just read to you is not contained anywhere in your

13     1999 statement; do you agree with me?

14        A.   I only know that when people came towards our neighbourhood, they

15     told us that the police had been expelling people.  They told us also

16     that Hamid Berisha had been killed.

17        Q.   Mr. Raka, I read out to you what is contained in your

18     2006 statement.  Please listen to me carefully.  There is no word of this

19     quote in your 1999 statement, the one that you gave in November 1999.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it on the

21     screen.  So this is Defence document D002-6001.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, we made

23     amendments to the 1999 statement.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  But how could you change something that you didn't

Page 3740

 1     say?

 2        A.   Nothing was changed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 5     tender the November 1999 statement made by this witness into evidence.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  We haven't yet seen this document, and it hasn't

 7     been put to the witness.  Are you wanting him to confirm that there is no

 8     reference in it to the subject matter of paragraph 22 of the statement in

 9     2006?  Is that the point?  Perhaps he might be able to look at the

10     earlier statement and confirm that.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, that's

12     precisely what I'm trying to do.  If I may assist you, it should be --

13     let me give you the exact reference in the statement -- yes, that's at

14     page 4:  "On the 28th of March."  In English that would be this part of

15     the statement, it's page 6:  "On the 28th of March we started

16     walking ..."

17             And in Albanian that would be -- just a moment.  It is easy to

18     find it because it begins with a date -- well, here it is, yes, that's

19     page 9 of the Albanian version.

20        Q.   Mr. Raka, can you see this part where it says "Me 28th of March"?

21     Would you please read it.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Mr. Raka, do you agree that there is no mention of what I quoted

24     a little while ago?

25        A.   Which things do you mean?

Page 3741

 1        Q.   Let me clear this up to you.  In this statement, the one that you

 2     gave in 1999, the paragraph begins with the words:

 3             "On 28th of March we started walking through the woods towards

 4     Macedonia ..."

 5             And in paragraph 22 you have all those things that I read out to

 6     you:

 7             "On the 28th of March, 1999, we saw people from the other end of

 8     Kacanik passing through the woods ..." and so on and so forth.  So what I

 9     read out to you.  And none of it is in your 1999 statement; do you agree

10     with me when I say that?

11        A.   The first sentence says it very clearly.  My wife had to stay at

12     home for two days, and it includes those other things that you mentioned.

13        Q.   Well, Mr. Raka, please listen to what I'm saying.  Your wife is

14     not at issue here.  I'm just saying that in your 1999 statement, what I

15     read out to you does not contain the things that you said in 2006.  And

16     if you want me to quote to you again from paragraph 22 - but I don't

17     think it's necessary - and to compare it to what you said in 1999.

18        A.   I mentioned Sefedin's son's case because this is what people from

19     the neighbourhood told us and that was the reason why we decided to

20     leave.

21        Q.   That's what it says in paragraph 22 of your 2006 statement, and

22     I'm now showing you your statement from 1999 where it says:

23             "On the 28th of March we started walking through the woods

24     towards Macedonia.  We were in a large group ..."

25             So all those things that are contained in paragraph 22 that I

Page 3742

 1     just read out to you are not contained in the part of your previous

 2     statement when you talk about your trip to Macedonia.

 3        A.   They were not included because the statement was shortened at the

 4     time.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I please tender

 7     this into evidence.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Raka, I take it that you agree that you made

 9     this statement in 1999, the earlier statement, you made that statement,

10     did you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

13             It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00092, Your Honours.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Sir, Mr. Raka, just one more thing.  My assistant has just drawn

17     my attention to this.  Is it true that this gentleman, Jonuz, was

18     transferred from Kacanik to Pristina after he was wounded?

19        A.   I don't know.  According to the information from the person from

20     the infirmary in Kacanik, they took him, but I only know that they took

21     him to the infirmary building.  After that I don't know, I'm not aware.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Raka, for answering all my questions.

23             MR. DJURDJIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, I have no further

24     questions for Mr. Raka.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 3743

 1             Ms. Nilsen, is there any re-examination?

 2             MS. NILSEN:  No.  Thank you, Your Honours, no re-examination from

 3     Prosecution.  Thanks.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Raka, we want to thank you very much for

 6     coming and being able to assist us with your recollection of these

 7     events.  We now have your evidence that you've given today, and of course

 8     your two previous statements and the evidence that you gave when you came

 9     here last time.  And we'll be studying that in due course.  We thank you

10     for being prepared to come and assist us again, and you now are free to

11     return to your normal activities.  The court officer will show you from

12     the courtroom.  Thank you.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Nilsen, do we understand that that concludes

16     the witnesses that are available at the present time?

17             MS. NILSEN:  Yes, Your Honours, that's correct.  The Prosecution

18     do not have any witness available for testifying today.  That concludes

19     the witnesses that we have scheduled for today.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  So the replacement witnesses will be available to

21     commence on Monday of next week?

22             MS. NILSEN:  That's correct, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  And I gather there will now be four witnesses next

24     week ?

25             MS. NILSEN:  I think it will, but I am not hundred per cent sure.

Page 3744

 1     I am looking at my colleague, Mr. Neuner, maybe he would be able to --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic seems to know more about your case

 3     than you do.  He says there will be four.

 4             MS. NILSEN:  I think it is correct.  I think it is correct,

 5     Your Honour.  Thank you.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend

 7     Mr. Stamp informed us yesterday about the sequence of witnesses and the

 8     schedule for the following weeks and the Defence is fully apprised.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10             Well, in that case we shall adjourn now to resume on Monday to

11     continue with the evidence.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.09 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of

14                           April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.