090514ED

Page 4473

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I was talking to

3 Ms. O'Leary. I'm sorry for interrupting you. That map that the witness

4 marked, has it been admitted? I'm very sorry.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I believe so, Exhibit D115.

6 Carry on, Ms. Kravetz.

7 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we have this map up on the screen, and could

8 we please zoom where -- the section where -- that has been marked by the

9 witness. If we could zoom in a bit more.

10 Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

11 Q. Witness, you were asked a series of questions about the action

12 that you participated in the village of Trnje. You have drawn a line

13 across -- between positions numbers 2 and 3 on the map. What does that

14 line represent?

15 A. That line represents where my unit was deployed, where it had its

16 positions.

17 Q. Now, in your statement, you had initially said that this action

18 was carried out in the village of Medvedce. In July when you visited the

19 area with an investigator from the Office of the Prosecution, did you

20 correct this, the name of the village?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And having visited the area to the best of your recollection

23 where did this action take place, in which village, the action you

24 describe in your statement?

25 A. In village Trnje, number 2.

Page 4474

1 Q. Now, you were asked a series of questions by my learned colleague

2 about how you got to the village. Just very roughly speaking, are you

3 able to draw on this map and indicate the direction in which you were

4 advancing, your units were advancing, when you were heading towards the

5 village of Trnje prior to this action?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Just for the sake of the record, the witness has

9 drawn a line with an arrow that goes from the south towards the north and

10 ends at number 2 that has been circled as the village of Trnje.

11 Q. You were also asked about the village of Novaki. Do you see that

12 on the map? I know the map is a bit blurry because it has been zoomed

13 in.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has drawn a rectangular -- rectangle

17 around the village of Novaki.

18 Q. Witness, you were asked yesterday by my colleague - and this is

19 at page 4414 and 4415 - whether you saw MUP units when you entered the

20 village and you said:

21 "I did not see MUP units on that occasion, but they were there in

22 these days."

23 Were MUP units involved in the action against the village of

24 Trnje?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4475

1 Q. You have shown on the map the road your unit took when you were

2 advancing towards this village. Did the MUP units that were involved in

3 this area, did they advance with you along this same road, or were they

4 progressing or coming from a different direction?

5 A. [Marks]

6 MS. KRAVETZ: For the sake of the record, the witness has drawn a

7 second line to indicate the direction in which MUP units were advancing.

8 Q. Could you maybe mark that with --

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: And has marked it as MUP.

12 Q. Do you know what type of units, MUP units, were involved in this

13 action?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: And the witness has marked the first line that

17 shows the road taken by his units with a VJ.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 MS. KRAVETZ:

20 Q. Thank you. Sir, did the MUP units that were involved in this

21 action, did they -- what was their role? Did they perform similar tasks

22 as the VJ units, or did they have a different task to perform during the

23 conduct of this action against the village of Trnje?

24 A. They had a different assignment.

25 Q. Can you explain if you know what was their assignment? What were

Page 4476

1 they supposed to do during the course of this action?

2 A. I don't know; I'm not really sure. But they were probably the

3 first to start implementing that action.

4 Q. And when you say they were probably the first to start

5 implementing the action, what do you mean?

6 A. Well, I don't know how to explain.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I really wouldn't want to

9 interrupt or to influence, and now I don't know how to express myself

10 without doing either --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Let's --

12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let him continue.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

14 Ms. Kravetz, please continue.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, do you know if these units entered the village of Trnje?

17 JUDGE PARKER: You mean the MUP units?

18 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, I mean the MUP units.

19 Q. I was asking about the MUP units. I'm sorry.

20 A. Over the course of the following days, I saw MUP members here.

21 MS. KRAVETZ: For the sake of the transcript, the witness has

22 drawn an arrow above number 2 which he has marked as MUP.

23 Q. Now, this first line that you drew alongside the line that is

24 marked VJ, were these units that were moving along that line, that is,

25 from south to north, towards the village of Trnje, were they advancing at

Page 4477

1 the same time as your units?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was there any sort of communication between those units, the

4 MUP units and your unit, when this action was being carried out?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. What sort of communication? I mean, how would you know what sort

7 of progress the MUP units were making along the axis that they were

8 travelling?

9 A. I'm not sure. I don't know that.

10 Q. And when you said that there was sort of communication between

11 MUP and VJ units, what were you referring to? How would you communicate

12 with them?

13 A. Well, the communication was between our officers and them, by

14 radio.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you said that you saw MUP units in --

16 along a second axis which you've drawn above number 2. When did you see

17 those MUP units there?

18 A. I saw that through binoculars. I wasn't right there on the spot.

19 Q. And where were you when you saw those units?

20 A. In village Trnje.

21 Q. Now, you were asked by my learned colleague - and this is again

22 the same page I had referred to earlier - to clarify whether these units

23 were present when you entered the village and you say -- you said:

24 "No, they were not there on the first day."

25 Did you see them on any of the following days in the village?

Page 4478

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what were these units doing in the village when you saw them?

3 A. They did the same thing we did. They were waiting, and they must

4 have been involved in an operation before that or -- I really am not sure

5 what to say.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you.

7 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I seek to tender this exhibit into

8 evidence which has been marked by the witness.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00785, Your Honours.

11 MS. KRAVETZ:

12 Q. And just a final clarification before we move away from -- on

13 from this topic. When I asked you what you saw them doing you said:

14 "They did the same thing we did."

15 What did you mean exactly?

16 A. Waiting to withdraw from that area. I don't know because the

17 operation was over, and they were there.

18 Q. Okay.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

20 MS. KRAVETZ: I see my learned colleague on his feet.

21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] All I can say now that he has

22 already -- he has confirmed an answer to the question that he had already

23 given.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Kravetz.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: I'll move on from there.

Page 4479

1 If we can have -- I see the map has disappeared at least from --

2 the map's still there. Yeah.

3 Q. Sir --

4 MS. KRAVETZ: The map that was just tendered, I just wanted to

5 ask a final question.

6 Q. Sir, on the map you were asked to mark the village of Mamusa. Do

7 you know what was the ethnicity of the inhabitants of the village of

8 Mamusa?

9 A. The Turks.

10 Q. And did your VJ unit conduct any actions against that village

11 during the course of this operation that you've drawn there, did you go

12 into the village?

13 A. I did later, but the army did not take part in carrying out any

14 action, neither did the police.

15 Q. Now, you were asked several questions by my learned colleague

16 about looting and specifically about how you were able to tell which

17 villages were Albanian and which were non-Albanian. And you were asked

18 whether in this area there was a single name of an Albanian village and

19 you said that between the road from Prizren to Djakovica on the left side

20 there was not a single Serbian village and on the road to Prizren there

21 were several Serbian villages, Bosniak villages, and some Albanian

22 villages.

23 Now, with respect to looting of houses, do you recall whether

24 your unit or other VJ units conducted any looting of houses in

25 non-Albanian villages during the time you were deployed in this area of

Page 4480

1 Prizren?

2 A. There was no looting in the predominantly Serbian villages;

3 however, I think that some Bosnian houses were plundered and the looting

4 was conducted in Albanian houses for sure.

5 Q. And the reference I was --

6 MS. KRAVETZ: Oh, I see my learned colleague. Just to give the

7 transcript reference I was referring to at page 4421 of yesterday's

8 transcript.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I was waiting for the witness to

11 finish his answer. Several questions were asked in terms of the

12 ethnicity of the owners of looted houses. My question was: How were

13 they able to distinguish the ethnicity of the owners of the houses. How

14 did they know the houses belonged to Albanians and not to someone else.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: That was one of the questions, but the question I

17 mentioned was also asked yesterday.

18 Your Honours, I don't know if this is a convenient time for the

19 break because I have a couple more questions. I think I will --

20 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you would like to think about that over

21 the break then, Ms. Kravetz.

22 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. Yes.

23 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now and resume at five minutes to

24 11.00.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4488

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

3 Ms. Nilsen has some questions for you.

4 Examination by Ms. Nilsen:

5 Q. Good morning, Witness. Could you please state your full name for

6 the record.

7 A. My name is Qamil Shabani.

8 Q. And where and when were you born?

9 A. I was born on the -- on the 14th of the 11th, 1952, in Zhegra.

10 Q. Zegra, is that a village in Gjilan municipality?

11 A. Yes, it's a village in Gjilan municipality.

12 Q. And are you still living in this village?

13 A. Yes, I continue to live there. That's where I was living, and

14 I'm still living in the same village.

15 Q. What is your profession, Mr. Shabani?

16 A. I was a teacher, but it's some time that I'm not exercising this

17 profession. I am privately employed, self-employed on family matters.

18 Q. And are you educated as a teacher?

19 A. I was qualified and graduated in the Faculty of Technology, and I

20 worked as a teacher from 1974 until the 21st -- in fact, up until 2001 in

21 an elementary school and then in the gymnasium of Gjilan.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Shabani, did you provide a statement to the

23 Office of Prosecution in June 2001?

24 A. Yes, I made a statement in June 2001.

25 Q. And did you in August 2006 provide additional information and

Page 4489

1 give an amended version of your statement to the Office of Prosecution?

2 A. Yes. I made additional information available so that it's -- so

3 that we have clearer information about the events in my village.

4 Q. Right. Did you have a chance to read through those statements

5 before coming to court today?

6 A. Yes, I had the opportunity to read them.

7 Q. And are you satisfied that the information contained in these

8 statements from 2001 and 2006 is true and accurate and -- to the best of

9 your knowledge and belief?

10 A. Yes, that's correct, as far as I'm aware and as far as I believe,

11 that's correct.

12 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I seek to tender those two statements

13 into evidence, two --

14 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

15 MS. NILSEN: Thank you. 65 ter number for the 2001 statement is

16 02263.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00786, Your Honours.

18 MS. NILSEN: And 2006 statement has 65 ter number 02280.

19 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00787.

20 MS. NILSEN:

21 Q. Did you also testify, Mr. Shabani, on the 31st of August and the

22 1st of September, 2006, in the Milutinovic et al. case for this Tribunal?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Have you been given also a chance to review this

25 transcript together with a language assistant before you came to court

Page 4490

1 today?

2 A. Yes, I had the opportunity to look at that.

3 Q. If I asked you the same questions as you were asked in 2006,

4 would you then provide me with the same answer?

5 A. Yes, I will try and provide the same answers that I gave then.

6 MS. NILSEN: I seek to tender the transcript into evidence with

7 65 ter number 05071, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00788, Your Honours.

10 MS. NILSEN: There are also two associated exhibits for this

11 92 bis witness. The first is an exhibit containing different examples of

12 vehicles, and the second is an exhibit containing different examples of

13 uniforms used by the Serb forces. They have already been tendered and

14 received, and they have been given number P00318 and Exhibit P00325 this

15 is only for the record.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 MS. NILSEN: I would now like to read out the court summary for

18 this witness, and after that I will have a few questions.

19 The witness has described that two or three weeks before the

20 air-strikes started Serb army and paramilitary managed to create a

21 check-point on the edge of the village of Zegra with 15 to 20 soldiers.

22 The witness describes their uniforms and their weapons. Initially Serb

23 forces occupied a local house and transformed it into a base for 70 to 80

24 soldiers. When the air-strikes started, five additional Albanian houses

25 in the village were occupied and the owners were forced out.

Page 4491

1 On the 28th of March, 1999, Serb forces searched for prominent

2 people in the village and shot the LDK, that is, Democratic League

3 of Kosovo, president's brother, and injured his sister. The next

4 morning, on the 29th of March, 1999, the Serb forces started to expel

5 people from their houses, ordering them to leave the village, and

6 threaten them with their weapons. The witness left the village that day

7 together with his family and 1300 other people and went approximately

8 10 kilometres outside the village towards Donja Stubla, which is Vitina

9 municipality, and they spent the night outside there.

10 The following morning they returned back to the village Zegra,

11 but because the armed vehicles drove through the village firing with

12 machine-guns, they escaped once again and this time they went to the

13 village Donja Stubla. Approximately one week after, Serb forces started

14 to attack the surrounding villages of Donja Stubla, resulting in wounding

15 of women and children and six people were killed. This also resulted in

16 the presence of up to 20.000 displaced people in this little village of

17 Donja Stubla.

18 The witness and his family stayed in Donja Stubla for

19 approximately five weeks. On the 2nd of May they left with a group of

20 600 people for Macedonia. The following morning they continued to an

21 area in Gjilan municipality called Rustaj where they were surrounded by

22 forces and detained for two hours. The men were separated from the women

23 and the group was threatened with weapons.

24 They were then escorted by 30 to 40 paramilitaries to a hill near

25 the Macedonian border from where the witness was interrogated. Finally

Page 4492

1 the witness was allowed to continue to the border into Macedonia.

2 This is the end of the court summary.

3 If we could please have up 65 ter number 00036 on the screen,

4 please. And if the usher could assist the witness with a pen because I

5 would like him to mark something on it.

6 If we could zoom it in a little bit more, the area to the right

7 side, lower right side of the map. Yes. Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Shabani, are you able to locate on this map your village

9 where you were from, Zegra?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Good. Could you please mark it with a circle and put a 1 next to

12 it.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. We know from your statements and your previous

15 testimony that you escaped to a village not far away and stayed there for

16 five weeks. Could you please put a circle around this place, this

17 village, and then mark a number 2 next to it.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And this place would be -- the name of this village?

20 A. Lower Stublla.

21 Q. Or Donja Stubla in Serbian?

22 A. Or Donja Stubla.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the date that you arrived

24 Donja Stubla and the day you left this village?

25 A. Yes. On the 30th of March we arrived in Upper Stublla. On the

Page 4493

1 2nd of May, we started leaving Lower Stublla, which means we stayed there

2 around five weeks.

3 Q. Exactly. And from Donja Stubla we know from your previous

4 statements and testimony that you fled to the Macedonian border. Can you

5 just explain to us why you decided to leave Donja Stubla after five

6 weeks?

7 A. Yes. We were not -- we did not feel safe in Lower Stublla. We

8 didn't feel safe because in the surrounding areas there were Serb forces,

9 and we feared that they would come to us and provoke a massacre. And our

10 food supplies were running out so there was uncertainty, and due to this

11 uncertainty we decided to leave towards Macedonia.

12 Q. Thank you. On your way to the Macedonian border, you reached a

13 place called Rustaj; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Good. And do you remember when you reached this place?

16 A. We arrived there. We stayed a night in the hills of Seferaj

17 village, and the following day we went to Rustaj. That's where we came

18 across military and paramilitary Serb forces around 2.00 after midday.

19 That's where they received us and all the column of people was

20 taken, the people were searched, and we waited for a couple of hours for

21 the commander of that unit operating in that area until he arrived. And

22 when he arrived, the operation to search every single individual, male

23 and female, and then they separated the male population from the female.

24 They forced us men to get together at one point and we were

25 encircled by Serb soldiers and paramilitary who were threatening us with

Page 4494

1 their weapons. We feared that we'd be liquidated. There was a heavy

2 rain at that time, and we could hear the voices from our wives and

3 mothers and children who were fearing for our lives. So after some time,

4 Serb forces then brought us together, both groups, and they were

5 escorting us. It was about 70 soldiers and paramilitary, together with

6 their commander they escorted us to a valley, to a meadow - let's call it

7 a meadow --

8 Q. Thank you. I'm going to stop you there. Could you just explain

9 whether anything concrete happened to you in this place that you call

10 Rustaj?

11 A. Yes, more specifically, when we went to that meadow, the

12 commander of that region together with three or four paramilitaries who

13 were armed, they got closer to me and they said, You, Professor, they

14 spoke in Serbo-Croat, who is the organiser, the leader of this march?

15 And then there was a conversation for about an hour. There were threats

16 and insults against me and my ethnic group. I thought that following

17 this threat they would lead me away and kill me, but that didn't happen.

18 Fortunately that didn't happen because I was -- I kept my cool in the

19 face of the provocations.

20 Q. Thank you. Are you able to locate this place, Rustaj, on the

21 map; and if you are, could you please put a circle around it and a

22 number 3 next to it. You can also draw a line between number 2 and 3

23 like you have done with number 1 and 2.

24 A. That's it.

25 Q. Thank you. This is sufficient. Are you also able to see on the

Page 4495

1 map where you crossed the border to Macedonia?

2 A. Yes. These are the Lojane mountains. This is the border with

3 Serbia. This is direction towards Rusheva [phoen] --

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

5 A. Yes, that's it. That's the border crossing.

6 Q. And this is the place you call Lojane; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, the mountain, the mountains of Lojane, belonging to

8 Macedonia.

9 Q. Thank you so much, Mr. Shabani.

10 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I would seek to tender this exhibit

11 into evidence.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00789, Your Honours.

14 MS. NILSEN: I have no further questions with this witness at

15 this time. Thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Djurdjic.

18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Shabani. My name is

21 Veljko Djurdjic. I'm a member of the Defence team for the accused,

22 Vlastimir Djordjevic, assisted by Ms. Marie O'Leary, also a member of our

23 Defence team. I hope we will communicate well and allow the interpreters

24 to do their job. Therefore, when you see the typing finish on the

25 screen, only then start your answer, and I will do the same.

Page 4496

1 Mr. Shabani, what is your occupation now?

2 A. I work in agriculture, work in my land. I'm also a handy

3 craftsman.

4 Q. Are you perhaps retired?

5 A. Not yet.

6 Q. Thank you. What is the structure of the Zegra village in terms

7 of educational attainment and training?

8 A. Educational structure and training structure in Zhegra, I'm not

9 clear about this question. I don't know what you want me to tell you.

10 Q. First of all you started answering and then you said you didn't

11 understand. What I meant is, What level of education did the greatest

12 part of the village reach? Primary school or high school? That was my

13 first question. And my second question was to be: What is the

14 occupation of most of the village?

15 A. There are people with university education, there are people who

16 have got secondary education, and there are people who have only been to

17 the elementary school. As for the schools that exist in our village,

18 we've got an elementary school and a gymnasium, and it's got its parallel

19 structures in Gjilan.

20 Q. I didn't mean to ask about schooling institutions. Do you know

21 perhaps which percentage of the village population only finished primary

22 school?

23 A. I'm not into statistics, but I could say most of them have been

24 through the elementary school, most of them, most of the village

25 population with percentage terms I could say 60, 70 per cent.

Page 4497

1 Q. I'm sorry, perhaps I was not precise enough. My main question

2 related to 1999. All my questions will be mainly about 1999, and if I

3 want to ask something about a different period, I will indicate so. This

4 percentage you gave me, it refers to 1999?

5 A. Yes, yes, it's related to that year.

6 Q. So you're saying that over 40 per cent of the population has more

7 than primarily school, for instance, finished secondary school or higher,

8 university, for instance?

9 A. Yes, that's roughly the case. I do not know exactly what the

10 statistics are because I haven't been involved with those.

11 Q. Thank you. And in terms of occupation, what would you say is the

12 occupation of the majority of the villages of Zegrani?

13 A. At that time, that is, in 1999 and before then, most of them were

14 involved in agriculture or in various crafts or they were employed by

15 schools, some worked in factories in Gjilan and so on.

16 Q. Thank you. I'll explain why I asked this. Most of the witnesses

17 we have seen so far were teachers or people with university degrees and

18 most of the witnesses are people who live outside of big cities, that's

19 why I asked.

20 And now, tell me, in 1999 who were you living with?

21 A. I lived with my wife in Zhegra.

22 Q. I read that in the statement. I meant did you live with your

23 parents, your brothers, in one household?

24 A. No. We had separate houses, four brothers, one has passed away.

25 And I've talked about that in my statements during the Milosevic case.

Page 4498

1 Three of us are still alive, and we live in separate houses.

2 Q. Thank you. Does your family house have a yard?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is the yard surrounded by a wall?

5 A. Partly, just a small part of it, and another part has got other

6 objects.

7 Q. That part with a wall, where was the wall built and how tall is

8 it?

9 A. There is a barn there which we have built. That's -- that's a

10 wall -- it's a building, it's a building, which serves a purpose in my

11 family's interest in agriculture.

12 Q. How high is that building?

13 A. It's a one-storey building, and it stretches several metres long,

14 and there is part of the building where we store the fodder and part of

15 it it's where the animals live.

16 Q. Thank you. Does that structure separate your house from the

17 street or the yard from the street?

18 A. Yes, this building separates my proper house from the road, so

19 this is on the side of the road.

20 Q. Is there a gate leading to the yard?

21 A. Yes, there is.

22 Q. How high is the gate?

23 A. The gate is about 2 metres high, and there is another gate where

24 the cards [as interpreted] go in and it's like 3, 4 metres high and long.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters say cars rather than cards.

Page 4499

1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. What is the gate made of?

3 A. Concrete blocks and wood. The groundwork, it's made of stones.

4 Q. How large is your own plot of land?

5 A. I have some 2 and a half hectares, and it's on the plain and on

6 the hill-sides including.

7 Q. Mr. Shabani, in your statement I read that in 1978 you did your

8 military service in the town of Vranje. What was your military

9 specialty?

10 A. Not in Vranje but in Kranj in Slovenia.

11 Q. Perhaps the interpreters misunderstood me. I said Kranj. My

12 question was: What was your military specialty?

13 A. It was pyro-ing [as interpreted] engineering.

14 Q. Thank you. Now when we're talking about 1999, when was your

15 memory of it the best?

16 A. I can't understand the way you formulate this question. I do not

17 see -- I can't make sense, what's the aim of your question?

18 Q. I mean that you have given quite a few statements and you

19 testified on several occasions in court; and when we're now talking about

20 events from 1999, when was your recollection of these events the best?

21 A. My memory is quite clear now, and it was quite clear then when --

22 when it -- when we talk about events that I have been through.

23 Q. Thank you. I noted down that I wanted to show to you a couple of

24 discrepancies compared to your first statement, it's P786. Earlier today

25 in line 46 -- line -- on page 46 of the transcript of the LiveNote you

Page 4500

1 described how you came to the border crossing of Rustaj. And you said

2 you were searched, mistreated, and so on. Could you tell me again what

3 was the first thing that happened when you came to Rustaj? Who did what

4 to you?

5 A. Are you talking about Rustaj?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. We were surrounded by the forces. We had to wait for a couple of

8 hours and then there was a detailed search of each individual in the

9 convoy, men or women, young or old. After the detailed search, they

10 separated men from the women. We were encircled, and we were being

11 threatened with automatic rifles, and that to us was a signal that we

12 were going to be killed. And we feared that we would be executed at any

13 moment then, but that didn't happen. And when we heard the screams of

14 our wives and women and children, they -- then the groups were brought

15 together. And from then on we continued.

16 Q. Thank you. Am I right if -- in saying that nothing was taken

17 away from you when you were searched?

18 A. Yes. I already said in my statement that at that moment nothing

19 was taken from us. However, as we passed the border, we gave some money

20 to a person. I have described this also in my testimony in the Milosevic

21 trial.

22 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. Earlier today you said that you

23 had decided to leave Donja Stubla because you felt unsafe because the

24 Serbian forces were around and you feared that they would come in and

25 slaughter you and you were also short of food. And on page 4,

Page 4501

1 paragraph 4; English version page 5, paragraph 4; and Albanian 4 and 5,

2 you said that 1.300 people including the villagers of Zegra decided to go

3 to Macedonia because you were left without food, and you decided to go to

4 Macedonia also and that you were afraid.

5 Am I right in saying that once you decided to leave there were no

6 forces in your village, neither the police nor the military?

7 A. It's true that there were no army or police in Stublla; however,

8 around the area in some other villages around, there were forces of the

9 army and the police. At the moment we left there was nobody there;

10 however, we always felt scared. We thought that they would come one day

11 and slaughter us all in the village of Stublla.

12 Q. But these forces had been in the same place for the previous five

13 weeks; is that right?

14 A. Which forces are you talking about? Five weeks I stayed with my

15 family in the Stublla. These forces were around us. During all the time

16 the conflict went on until when NATO intervened, these forces were there.

17 Q. I didn't understand you. You said that the conflict went on.

18 What were you referring to?

19 A. I was talking about the war in Kosova. During that time, the

20 army was there, the military were there, the paramilitary were there, and

21 they did all kind of things against the civilian population. I'm talking

22 about that time. They were in permanent action during that time. People

23 suffered a lot in their hands. Everybody saw them. There were murders,

24 maltreatment, beatings, imprisonment until the last days.

25 Q. Mr. Shabani, you said that you had spent five weeks in the

Page 4502

1 village of Donja Stubla. My question was, During that time, were Serbian

2 forces in the area around Stubla while you were there? Were they there

3 the whole time?

4 A. They were in the surroundings of Stublla. The distance of

5 5, 6 kilometres away from the village, it's there where these forces were

6 present. They were there all the time. However, they were not in

7 Stublla. They did not come there for as long as we were there.

8 Q. Thank you. You said that you worked as a teacher until 2001, and

9 you also said that you had graduated from the Faculty of Technology.

10 When did you graduate, in which year?

11 A. I graduated from the Faculty of Technology in 1977.

12 Q. And at what university?

13 A. The University of Kosova -- there was only one university in

14 Kosova at that time.

15 Q. Thank you. I heard that this was in Pristina? Did you say that?

16 or maybe I misheard.

17 A. Yes. Once it was in Prishtina, then it was transferred to

18 Mitrovica; however, it was the same university, the

19 University of Prishtina.

20 Q. Thank you. You started working as a teacher in 1974. Which

21 subject did you teach?

22 A. I taught physics, and also I taught subjects in which I was

23 needed to teach the subjects the school asked me to teach depending on

24 its needs.

25 Q. Who did you receive your salary from?

Page 4503

1 A. At that time I received the salary from the state which existed

2 at that time in Kosova, from the Government of Kosova, from the

3 Yugoslav Federation which existed at that time.

4 Q. Tell me, where did you teach, in which institution?

5 A. As I told you earlier, in the elementary school of Zhegra as well

6 as in the gymnasium of Gjilan. That gymnasium had some classes in Zhegra

7 at the time.

8 Q. Thank you. And in 1999?

9 A. In 1999, at that time I was in charge of collecting financial

10 means for the Government of Kosova. That money was used to pay for the

11 teachers, for the education which was separated at that time from Serbia.

12 The wages of the teachers at the time were not paid by the state. This

13 started to happen from 1999 -- 1990, 9-0. So from that time when the

14 autonomy was abolished, all the money for the educational sector were

15 paid by the people of Kosova themselves. So at that time I was

16 responsible for collecting the money from the citizens for the

17 Government of Kosova for the institutions of Kosova.

18 Q. Thank you. Tell me first, according to which syllabus did you

19 teach in 1999?

20 A. The syllabus of that time was drawn up by the so-called

21 Republic of Kosova. At that time we did not have a state, but, as I told

22 you, the education was separated. This was imposed on us actually. The

23 Serbs tried to force us to be taught only in Serbian language. They also

24 sought to eliminate many Albanian-language subjects. They ordered that

25 the subjects should be taught in Serbian language. So this led to the

Page 4504

1 separation of the education. The autonomy of Kosova was lifted and at

2 that time the process of the separation of us from the state of Serbia

3 began to take place.

4 Q. Thank you. You told us twice that the autonomy was abolished.

5 Can you tell us how you understood this abolishing of autonomy, what did

6 it mean to you personally?

7 A. The abolition of autonomy was a deprivation of the elementary

8 rights of people of Kosova. This was taken us -- taken away from us

9 forcefully from Serbia. They used all kinds of violence to abolish the

10 autonomy.

11 Q. Are you trying to tell me that the autonomous province of

12 Kosovo and Metohija had a different position and status from the one

13 enjoyed by the autonomous province of Vojvodina?

14 A. The status at that time was the same; however, the status of

15 Kosova was abolished. The delegates in the Assembly of Kosova on

16 2nd of July declared Kosova a republic. These were the delegates elected

17 by the people. They rejected the violence of Serbia. This was the

18 declaration of 2nd of July.

19 Q. Thank you. What Assembly are you referring to?

20 A. I'm referring to the Assembly of Kosova.

21 Q. Who was the president of the Assembly of Kosovo, or are you

22 referring to the parallel Assembly that was set up solely by the Albanian

23 ethnic community? Is that what you were referring to? Or are you

24 referring to the socialist, or rather, the Assembly of the socialist

25 autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija?

Page 4505

1 A. The Assembly of autonomous province, the Assembly is the

2 parliament of Kosova. On 2nd of July they declared Kosova a republic.

3 The majority of deputies took this decision. That was also the decision

4 of the citizens of Kosova. Since Serbia was imposing violent measures,

5 they led to that situation. The violent measures in Kosova continued to

6 be applied until 12th of June, 1999. There were also different kinds of

7 repression.

8 Q. Thank you. When you said "the government" you were referring to

9 the government of Mr. Bukoshi; is that correct?

10 A. This government you're talking about was set up in exile. The

11 Assembly of Kosova was legitimate. It was that Assembly who declared the

12 Republic of Kosova. At that time, on 7th of September, the

13 Constitution of Kosova was drafted. Then due to the repression of the

14 Serbs, all these deputies were forced to go into exile.

15 Q. Are you referring to the so-called Kacanik constitution?

16 A. Yes, exactly. I'm talking about the Kacanik constitution.

17 Q. When were you collecting the money that you mentioned, the funds

18 that were intended for education?

19 A. Are you talking about the date? The year?

20 Q. I'm asking you about the period in which you did this.

21 A. I was a member of a commission since this fund was set up, then

22 as a collector of the means, I worked from -- for two years, from 1997

23 until 1999, so from 1997 until 1999.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the Kosovo Liberation Army is?

25 A. Yes, I know.

Page 4506

1 Q. Can you tell me what was the Kosovo Liberation Army involved in?

2 A. From its title itself you can understand that this was an armed

3 formation who put itself in the service of the liberation of Kosova from

4 the military and paramilitary Serbian forces.

5 Q. Thank you. When was the first time you heard or learned some

6 information about the liberation -- Kosovo Liberation Army?

7 A. As soon as it came out in public. I learnt about it from the

8 media. I had no idea about its existence before.

9 Q. And what did you know about their activities?

10 A. I do not know anything about their actions. It was their

11 business. I was engaged in my own business. At that time, I was working

12 as a citizen to collect the money for the compensation. I was collecting

13 the money for the teachers as well as for the health people. This was

14 the activity I was dedicating myself to.

15 Q. Don't you think that this period between 1997 and 1999 while you

16 were raising funds actually coincides with the period when, as you put

17 it, the KLA came into public and announced what its activities were.

18 A. The fund existed even before the KLA existed. Soon after the

19 autonomy was abolished, the fund came into being. And it was from that

20 time that the fund has been working on. The purpose of the fund was

21 purely humanitarian.

22 Q. Based on what can you claim that the KLA was not present in Zegra

23 before the war or immediately after the beginning of the war?

24 A. I never heard about any action of KLA in the village of Zhegra or

25 its surroundings. Even in Gjilan, I never heard about them doing

Page 4507

1 anything in Gjilan. Actually, there's been no KLA there. I've also

2 mentioned this in my statements.

3 Q. That's precisely why I'm asking you this. How do you perceive

4 someone to be a member of the KLA? How can you make this distinction and

5 say, Yes, this man is a member of KLA; or no, he is not?

6 A. It's easy to make that distinction based on the practical actions

7 of a person. If a person belongs to an armed formation, he of course

8 acts to obey to the orders given by that formation. He has his uniform

9 and then he also is engaged in fighting.

10 Q. Mr. Shabani, we have heard a number of witnesses here who told us

11 that they were members of the KLA but were dressed in civilian clothes,

12 and they told us also that they took part in some armed actions and some

13 other activities as well. However, you believe that only persons in

14 uniforms were members of the KLA and that led you to tell us that there

15 were no KLA presence in your village.

16 A. I can tell you only this: There were no KLA people in my

17 village.

18 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that there were people in

19 your village in illegal possession of fire-arms?

20 A. I did not see anybody carrying such weapons; however, during the

21 war if anybody had such weapons, they just hid them away. They were not

22 able to use them. I know of no case of anybody having any fire-arm with

23 him at that moment in Zhegra or in other places. Could you be more

24 specific about the time-frame you're asking about.

25 Q. Mr. Shabani, my question was: Before the war, prior to 1999, you

Page 4508

1 aware that certain villagers had fire-arms in possession illegally, they

2 were not bearing those arms, they were just keeping them. And I also

3 want to ask you if you know if any lawsuits were instigated against them?

4 A. As far as I know, before 1999 the police in Zhegra, in Gjilan, in

5 Kosova, mounted an action to collect weapons from the civilians, from the

6 citizens. Many people were subjected to maltreatment at that time. Even

7 people who had no weapons, sometimes they were subjected to maltreatment.

8 This action continued. It started from the time when the

9 autonomy was lifted. The purpose was to disarm the Albanians of any

10 weapons they had. It was a police action. It was a notorious action of

11 Serbian police of Yugoslavia. These were the forces which operated in

12 Kosova. There were widespread maltreatments. Some people also died

13 during the torture.

14 There are two people in Zhegra who died of such torture, one is

15 Mehmet Hajrullah [phoen]. After four days of police maltreatment, he

16 died in his home. He died due to the torture of the Serbian police on

17 him. The other is Sali Isufi. He is also a village fellow. Due to the

18 torture in the police station, he died one month later. There have been

19 also cases of beating and maltreatment against the people of Zhegra,

20 people living around Zhegra. This was done by the Serbian police who was

21 present in Zhegra, in Gjilan; it was also done by the paramilitaries.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, it's time

24 for our technical break.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I take it you're nearly finished, Mr. Djurdjic?

Page 4509

1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I haven't finished, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I know you haven't finished, but you must be

3 nearly finished.

4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, that depends on how quickly

5 we will get the answers as I continue. I started with general questions,

6 and after the break I'd like to proceed with more specific ones.

7 JUDGE PARKER: If you can try and finish in half an hour, we will

8 be grateful. Thank you.

9 We will adjourn now. We must have a break and resume at 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Shabani, is it true that you said that if the KLA had killed

15 some Albanians who had been involved in cooperation with Serbs, they were

16 traitors if they could have done such a thing?

17 A. The Albanians who saw the interests of their own nation, maybe

18 they have liquidated some of them, but I did not sympathise with the idea

19 that people be executed for what they do. I have no knowledge. I

20 haven't heard that this happened.

21 Q. I promised to the Trial Chamber to finish before 1.30, so please

22 listen to my questions carefully and give me specific answers. My

23 question was: Am I right in saying that you said, you stated, If the KLA

24 had killed some Albanians who were involved in cooperation with Serbs,

25 then these people were traitors of their nation and they, the KLA, were

Page 4510

1 entitled to do such a thing? Just let me remind you to make things

2 easier. You said that in the Milosevic trial before the Court. Do you

3 remember that?

4 A. Yes, I remember that. I said it. But I don't know of any cases

5 that the KLA has killed such people. I've said that in the Milosevic

6 trial, that I -- my opinion was that those people should have been tried

7 for what they did to the detriment of our national interests. This was

8 my opinion, and I've said this then; but I have not heard of any cases

9 that the KLA has killed people who may have done that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. DJURDJIC: I will now move on to P787, that is this witness's

12 statement from 2006.

13 Q. Mr. Shabani, am I right in saying that you were not an

14 eye-witness and you have no direct knowledge as to who and how killed

15 Tahiri Shaqiri? Briefly, were you an eye-witness or not?

16 A. I wasn't an eye-witness, but it was his family who told me about

17 that when they came to my family, when they left their own home, fled

18 their own home, and came to us.

19 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in your statement of 2006 you

20 explained for the first time that when you say "paramilitary" you mean

21 somebody working with the police who is not a regular policeman?

22 A. Yes, that what I've said. He is not a regular police officer but

23 is part of a voluntary formation who takes orders from somebody else.

24 Q. Thank you. Regarding paragraph 5, do you agree that it was the

25 first time you stated it's not in the 2001 statement:

Page 4511

1 "While I was in Zegra I learned from Albanians that members of

2 the community had compiled a list of prominent Albanians who should be

3 [Realtime transcript read in error "had been"] killed, the Serb community

4 had compiled a list of prominent Albanians who should be killed."

5 A. I've said this during my second statement where I made additions,

6 but I've said during the Milosevic trial that the members of the Serb

7 community in Zhegra had compiled a list of prominent Albanians who should

8 be killed.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction for the transcript

11 on -- in two different places it's "...a list of prominent Albanians who

12 'should be' killed..." It's currently "...'had been' killed..." in the

13 transcript.

14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Regarding this man Avni, you made certain corrections in this

16 second statement. Is it right that you were not an eye-witness and you

17 do not know who killed this person called Avni?

18 A. I've said in the statement that I heard this from Hysen Hyseni

19 who was a co-traveller of Avni, and he has described how Avni was killed.

20 And what I've said is the opinions of Hysen Hyseni on this.

21 On the killing of Avni, I also heard when I was in Macedonia and

22 Kumanovo, I heard there for a second -- from a second source, and I

23 didn't get any details of how he was killed and who killed him.

24 Q. Paragraph 9, am I right in saying that this is the first time you

25 mentioned people who were wounded? It's not in your 2001 statement. You

Page 4512

1 mention Bedrije Selmani here?

2 A. Yes, Bedrije Selmani and -- I said that a woman and a man were

3 injured. That's to say in the initial statement now I've completed my

4 statement with the names of Bedrije Selmani and the other man had his

5 family name Isufi. I can't remember his name.

6 Q. Mr. Shabani, we have all your statements. The Trial Chamber has

7 them too. I'm just asking you simple questions. Yes or no can be the

8 answer. You just gave me a long answer in order to end up by saying what

9 I stated in the beginning that you first mentioned it in 2006, not in

10 2001. Just tell me whether that's correct or not. We have to save time.

11 A. I said that I mentioned that a woman was injured on her left arm

12 and a man in the foot. And we're talking about Bedrije Selmani and

13 Sahit Isufi. I knew about it, but I didn't know their names. This time,

14 with the additions, my statement has become more complete.

15 Q. Am I right in saying that you were not an eye-witness and you

16 have no direct knowledge who and how injured Sahit Isufi in the leg.

17 A. I've only seen his grave. As for the woman, Bedrije, I saw her

18 from the distance when she was hit by a bullet and she was injured. And

19 it was a light injury, but Isufi was injured more seriously.

20 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 10 you made a correction saying that the

21 Serb forces were not shooting after you, that it started only when you

22 got somewhere away from the village. In the first statement it says only

23 that the Serb police did not shoot after you. Is that correct?

24 A. I didn't quite understand the question. It wasn't only the

25 police but the military and paramilitary forces. I've said they shot

Page 4513

1 from the distance. When we were closer to the village, we were shot at.

2 All the crowd was shot at when we were leaving. But when we went further

3 away at a distance, there weren't any shootings on the crowd, on the

4 column. I'm said this in my statement.

5 Q. All right. Let's go on. Am I right in saying that in

6 paragraph 11 you stated for the first time what happened to

7 Skender Selimi? whereas you were not an eye-witness and you have no

8 first-hand knowledge about how he was wounded.

9 A. I heard this from Skender Selimi himself what happened to him at

10 the time, what he went through. He told me about what happened to him.

11 But in my initial statement, I was not allowed to talk about people who

12 were on the other side of the village. But now I had to complete the

13 details of what happened to the whole village, as is this case. I knew

14 about this then. I knew about his case then.

15 Q. Is it correct that in your statement of 2006 you mentioned the

16 name of Milazim Idrizi for the first time and that you had no first-hand

17 knowledge who killed him and how?

18 A. About this case, about the case of Milazim Idrizi, his two

19 brothers have testified. When I was in Kumanova, Milazim's brothers were

20 there and I went to pay a visit, went to pay my condolences on his death,

21 and they explained me the details of what happened to him. So the

22 testimony is on the basis of what Milazim's brothers and Qazim told me.

23 Q. Mr. Shabani, you don't seem to want to allow me finish when I

24 promised. I asked you a clear question, and I told you we have both your

25 statements. You, again, gave me a long answer just in order to confirm

Page 4514

1 that you did not have direct knowledge and all you know is hearsay.

2 That's all I asked you, nothing else. What you have just said is

3 contained in your second statement. Please, we have to move on.

4 Am I right in saying that it was the first time you mentioned

5 Qazim Idrizi also and that you were not an eye-witness to the event?

6 A. I wasn't an eye-witness, but I'm telling you that I heard the

7 testimony from his brothers. I couldn't say that I was an eye-witness

8 when I haven't been, but I'm telling you that I heard it from his

9 brothers.

10 Q. Well, then just tell me yes or no. If it's no, the Court will

11 decide. I'm asking you about Qamile Haziri. Is it again the case that

12 you first mentioned him in 2006 and you were not a witness?

13 A. Qamile Haziri is the wife of Qazim Idrizi. That's their family

14 names, that's what family names they have.

15 Q. And all your knowledge is indirect and 2006 is the first time you

16 mentioned it; right?

17 A. In my statement I haven't mentioned this because I wasn't told --

18 I wasn't allowed to tell about events from that part of the village.

19 That's why I have made the additions now.

20 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 13 in 2006 you again talk about

21 Idrizi for the first time, or rather, the Idrizis. It's not in your 2001

22 statement.

23 A. I've only stressed there in the statement of 2001 I said that

24 after we left the village, many murders, many killings, took place in the

25 village. And these are the details of those killings.

Page 4515

1 Q. You stubbornly don't want to answer my question which is simple.

2 I keep asking you the same thing. You did not say that in 2001. You

3 first mentioned it in 2006, one; and two, you are not an eye-witness and

4 you keep giving me long-winded answers to each of these questions. Just

5 tell me whether I'm right or not.

6 Now I'm asking you about paragraph 14, the man called Velickovic.

7 I say you first mentioned it in 2006 and you were not an eye-witness to

8 the incident you recounted in 2006.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a question, Mr. Djurdjic?

10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm just asking: Am I right or

11 not --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shabani, it's asked of you whether you first

13 mentioned the name of this man Velickovic, is it, in 2006 statement. Did

14 you name him earlier, Stavre Velickovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've mentioned Stavre Velickovic

16 before because he was the commander of the Territorial Defence of Zhegra,

17 a regular formation of reserve forces, military reserve forces.

18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You mentioned him in your 2006 statement; that's what you're

20 saying; right?

21 JUDGE PARKER: He's mentioned in paragraph 14 of Exhibit P787,

22 the 2006 statement. I think your question is whether the witness had

23 mentioned this before that statement, either in the 2001 statement or

24 when giving evidence.

25 I wonder, Mr. Shabani, whether you are able to remember whether

Page 4516

1 you'd mentioned this person, Velickovic, in the 2001 --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned that during the

3 testimony in the Milosevic case.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Shabani, my question about all these paragraphs I quoted is

7 the same. Am I right you did not mention it in your 2001 statement and

8 you mentioned certain things for the first time in 2006. Please focus on

9 that, and since I have only two minutes left I'll try to summarise. In

10 paragraphs 16 - I'm talking about the 2006 statement - in paragraph 16

11 you mentioned for the first time the names of these people who met their

12 death, who perished, and you did not know these names in 2001.

13 A. In which statement?

14 Q. In 2006, in paragraph 16, you enumerate the first and last names

15 of these people because you remembered them apparently. Am I right in

16 saying that in 2001 you didn't mention them?

17 A. Yes, it's a fact that I haven't mentioned the names, but I've --

18 I've talked about the number of people who were killed, that six people

19 were killed in the village of Gjylaku, whereas the names were mentioned

20 in 2006 and the aim of that statement in 2006 was to complete that

21 statement -- my statement with the details, names, and family names, of

22 those people who were killed. And these are notes which the Tribunal has

23 at its disposal.

24 Q. In paragraph 17 you corrected your 2001 statement in which it

25 read that life was normal in Stubla; however, now for the first time you

Page 4517

1 say that life was not normal. Is that the first time that you stated

2 that, this correction that is contained in paragraph 17?

3 A. No, I've made the same correction during the Milosevic case. I

4 have specifically been asked about this case. There can be no normal

5 life if somebody is under military and paramilitary formations under

6 their guard and is threatened, as was the case of Stubla. Because we

7 feared that we could be eliminated at any time by those forces and these

8 cannot be considered as normal conditions, life conditions. We were

9 guarded round the clock, and I've said this in my previous statements and

10 this information that I've given in the latest statement is to just

11 complete my earlier statements with the specifics.

12 Q. Mr. Shabani, I'm putting to you the statements that I want to.

13 If I wanted to put to you some other statement, I would have done so.

14 Therefore, please answer the questions that I'm asking you. And I'm

15 nearing the end anyway.

16 Am I right to say that when you set off towards Macedonia, that

17 the soldiers stopped you and told you to go to Presevo?

18 A. Yes, from the moment --

19 Q. Thank you, thank you. This is all I need to hear.

20 A. [Previous translation continues]... told us --

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... ask you this: You were

22 afraid of the Serbian army and instead of going to Presevo where they

23 told you to go, you went to Macedonia --

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Thank you. And am I right to say that nobody escorted you, and

Page 4518

1 you travelled on your own along this road towards Macedonia instead of

2 going to Presevo?

3 A. Yes, at that moment nobody escorted us, and I've said it in my

4 statement.

5 Q. Thank you. And my last question for you: Is it fair to say that

6 when you crossed the border nobody asked you to produce any ID or other

7 documents?

8 A. The IDs, our documents were seen when they -- when we were

9 searched -- all of us were searched to see who we were.

10 Q. Mr. Shabani, please, please listen to what I'm saying. You told

11 us how you were searched, but listen to my question. I asked you while

12 you were crossing the border nobody confiscated your documents, yes or

13 no, please answer me that.

14 A. Yes, nobody confiscated the documents. That's how it was. No

15 one took documents from us.

16 Q. Mr. Shabani -- thank you, Mr. Shabani. I have no further

17 questions for you.

18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. With

19 this, I have concluded my cross-examination.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.

21 Ms. Nilsen, do you re-examine?

22 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, the Prosecution do not have any

23 questions for re-examination. Thank you.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shabani, the Chamber would like to thank you

Page 4519

1 for coming again to The Hague to assist us.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

3 JUDGE PARKER: There are no further questions for you. You will

4 realise we have the statements you have given earlier and the evidence

5 you have given earlier as well as the answers that you have been able to

6 give today. And we're going to have to study all of that in due course.

7 So we want to thank you again for your assistance, and you may of course

8 now return to your normal activities. The court officer will show you

9 out.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Fortunately it turned out that further time was

13 not needed for re-examination, so we are now eight or nine minutes short

14 of finishing. What is the practicality of calling the next witness at

15 this point do you think?

16 MR. STAMP: I don't think it would be convenient at this moment

17 to --

18 JUDGE PARKER: Is it right, Mr. Stamp, it's a protected witness?

19 MR. STAMP: Yes.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We would need time to set up the court anyway.

21 That being said --

22 MR. STAMP: I don't think we would need time to set up the court.

23 It's just a pseudonym. I don't think we -- but to start now it takes

24 five minutes to get him here, and to get him sworn, so --

25 JUDGE PARKER: We've been very considerate of Mr. Djurdjic in

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1 having breaks to allow him to look at things, so I think we can allow you

2 to have an early finish today with a view to starting tomorrow morning at

3 9.00.

4 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: We therefore adjourn until 9.00 in the morning.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 15th day of

8 May, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.