090603IT

Page 5402

1 Mr. Djurdjic, do you cross-examine?

2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. My name is Veljko Djurdjic, I'm a

5 member of the Defence team of the accused Vlastimir Djordjevic. With me

6 is Ms. Marie O'Leary, a member of the team.

7 Mr. Krasniqi, you said you were born in Pagarusa, can you tell us

8 what municipality that is?

9 A. Yes, I can. Pagarusha is part of Malishev municipality.

10 Q. Thank you. How many brothers and sisters did you have?

11 A. We are three bother brothers and two sisters. One is dead so now

12 there are only two brothers and two sisters.

13 Q. Thank you. Did your parents live in Pagarusa back in 1999?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you have some property or land in Pagarusa?

16 A. No, we do not.

17 Q. Does your father hail from Pagarusa?

18 A. Yes, from Pagarushe.

19 Q. What was his occupation?

20 A. He was a farmer. He worked in agriculture.

21 Q. Thank you. What happened with his land?

22 A. We sold our father's land, and we went to Dushanove, to Prizren.

23 We bought a new place.

24 Q. Thank you. When was that that you went to Dusanovo and bought

25 land there?

Page 5403

1 A. It was on the 11th of March, 1968 [as interpreted].

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The witness said 1969, I believe,

4 whereas we have 1968 in the transcript.

5 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, who did you buy the land from in Dusanovo?

6 A. We bought the land from Nesahit Recani, from him.

7 Q. One of your brothers died, but was he still alive in 1999?

8 A. Yes, he was.

9 Q. Did one of your brothers work at Prizren Trans?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. Thank you. You mentioned one brother in your statement as having

12 been with you. Did you live together?

13 A. No, we were -- we lived separately. Of course, we were in the

14 same compound.

15 Q. What was your brother's name, the one who lived with you?

16 A. The one who is dead, Mehmed Krasniqi; the other is

17 Shefqet Krasniqi; and you know my name, Rexhep Krasniqi.

18 Q. Thank you. What was Mehmed's occupation?

19 A. Odd jobs, whatever he could find. He was a bricklayer.

20 Q. It says here that your other brother was Rexhep Krasniqi. Let's

21 correct that. One of your brother's name is Mehmed Krasniqi, and what

22 was the other brother's name?

23 A. Shefqet Krasniqi.

24 Q. Thank you. What was Shefqet's occupation?

25 A. He worked in the construction business. Now, he is not working.

Page 5404

1 Q. Thank you. Did all of you live in the same compound but in

2 different houses?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, what schooling do you have?

5 A. Eight years of schooling.

6 Q. Thank you. I can see that you worked in Printex for a number of

7 years. What jobs did you work at?

8 A. Yes, in the textile industry where they produce threads, the

9 weaving sector.

10 Q. What were your jobs there?

11 A. We called the place "batere" where the cotton was processed. The

12 first process.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was general manager of Printex in

14 1999?

15 A. Mile. In our workshop, it was Mile who was the manager.

16 Q. Thank you. But what about the entire company, the entire factory

17 of Printex?

18 A. Faruk Mermeri.

19 Q. In 1999?

20 A. He was a general director. Mile was the manager of our workshop.

21 Q. Thank you. Who was the general manager before Faruk Mermeri?

22 A. They were rotated; Sadedin was one. There were many there,

23 because I worked there for 34 years so we had several general managers.

24 Luftim Demiri was another one.

25 Q. I'm surprised to hear that you don't know that back in 1999 it

Page 5405

1 was Vojkan Zecovic who was the general manager.

2 A. It is possible. We didn't have contact with him. If he is a

3 person who moved there from another factory, then it can be him as well.

4 But I cannot tell you for sure.

5 Q. No, he was at the factory from the establishment of Printex, and

6 he was there even when Demiri, the legendary director, was at the head of

7 the enterprise.

8 A. Yes, that's correct, he was. Faruk Mermeri as well, many of

9 them.

10 Q. Tell me about that estate where you lived. Did the yard have a

11 wall around it?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. Will you tell me what was it made of, this fence? How tall was

14 it?

15 A. It was built of concrete blocks.

16 Q. Thank you. How high was it?

17 A. 1.80 metres high.

18 Q. Thank you. Will you tell me, when did you do your military

19 service and where?

20 A. I completed my military service in Niksiq. From there we were

21 transferred to Bosnia to watch The Battle at Neretva movie, and then I

22 returned again. I completed it in 1969.

23 Q. Thank you. What was the name of your street in Dusanovo in 1999?

24 A. Boulevard i Rinise, 154. The names are now being changed, but it

25 is in my statement, the name of the street I gave.

Page 5406

1 Q. Thank you. How far is your street from the main road to

2 Djakovica?

3 A. Not more than 200 metres. That should be the distance. I didn't

4 measure it, but it should be about 200 metres.

5 Q. Thank you. And it runs parallel to the road, doesn't it?

6 A. We call it the Transit Road now that links up with the main road

7 going to Jakova and to the town. That's the part I was referring to when

8 I said 200 metres far.

9 Q. Yes, I'm just saying your street runs parallel to the road.

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 Q. To get on to the main road you have to turn left into a

12 side-street and then --

13 A. You have to take a turn.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you see the road from your house, the

15 Djakovica-Prizren road?

16 A. Yes, you can see it, but there is a house right in front of our

17 house that impedes the view, blocks the view.

18 Q. Thank you. But within those 200 metres, are there any more

19 houses?

20 A. Yes, there are. From the main road to the road where my house

21 is, there is a row of houses; and then where my house is, there are other

22 houses.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know Uni Hakic [phoen]?

24 A. No, not in my neighbourhood. Perhaps there is someone by that

25 name, but there are many people residing there, so I don't know all of

Page 5407

1 them by names.

2 Q. Dusanovo is part of Prizren, isn't it?

3 A. Yes, it's part of Prizren.

4 Q. Thank you. And it is on a plain?

5 A. It is adjacent to Prizren. It's a neighbourhood of Prizren.

6 It's not separate from it.

7 Q. Yes, I agree with you. I'm just saying that this part of Prizren

8 is on level ground. Your neighbourhood Dusanovo is in the field of

9 Prizren?

10 A. It is a plain.

11 Q. Thank you. From Dusanovo, can you see Bazdarana?

12 A. Yes, but now you can't see it because there are higher blocks of

13 flats that block the view.

14 Q. You mean Ortokol. And when were you able to see Bazdarana from

15 Dusanovo? In which year?

16 A. Now, you could not see it. You could see it then. Now there are

17 many more houses built there, so you cannot see it.

18 Q. I'm asking you when were you able to see it?

19 A. You could see it about 30 years ago when these apartment blocks

20 were not built there.

21 Q. Thank you, that's what I was asking. Is it right that from

22 Dusanovo you cannot see the barracks that are situated by the road from

23 Suva Reka to Prizren?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. Now you cannot see them.

25 Q. You could see it 30 years ago?

Page 5408

1 A. Yes, you could see them very well then.

2 Q. Thank you. When did you stop working at Printex?

3 A. I stopped working in 2004 because the factory was closed down and

4 we remained jobless.

5 Q. I mean in March 1999, did you continue working there up to the

6 moment when you left Dusanovo?

7 A. I worked there until the bombing started. And when I returned

8 from Albania to Kosova in June, I continued working there.

9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you notice before the 24th of March that

10 people were leaving Prizren, going away?

11 A. Before the 24th? Can you please repeat your question?

12 Q. Did you notice that people were leaving Prizren before the

13 24th of March, 1999?

14 A. No, I didn't notice that.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you notice that anyone left Dusanovo before the

16 24th of March?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, in terms of ethnic structure, what kind of

19 people live in Prizren, and what languages do they speak?

20 A. They were Serbs.

21 Q. What about Turks?

22 A. No, there weren't any Turks. There were Gorans, Albanians, and

23 Serbs living together.

24 Q. Did you ever go into the building of the municipal assembly of

25 Prizren?

Page 5409

1 A. Are you referring to the old one or to the newly built one?

2 Q. Sorry, when I talk, I talk always about 1998 and 1999, because

3 that's the relevant period for us. I'm asking you questions up to 1999.

4 Did you ever go into the town hall, or to the SUP building, or the survey

5 department building, any building of the local administration?

6 A. Yes, I went to the municipal office because whenever we needed a

7 document to be issued to us, we had to refer to that office.

8 Q. Thank you. And you never saw a notice, a board on the municipal

9 building written in the Turkish language?

10 A. Sir, when we would go to the municipal building, we could use the

11 three languages, the Serb language, Albanian language, and Turkish. We

12 could use the three of them.

13 Q. Thank you, that is why I'm asking, because the Turkish language

14 could be used as well. And you said a moment ago the Turks lived in

15 Prizren in large numbers.

16 A. Yes, there are still there.

17 Q. Thank you. And one of the towns' languages is Turkish. But tell

18 me about the village of Mamusa, which you mentioned in your statement.

19 What is the majority population of Mamusa?

20 A. Turkish is also spoken in Mamusha village. I mentioned Mamusha

21 in terms of the people who were droven [as interpreted] away from there

22 and who had to come towards our neighbourhood.

23 Q. Thank you. The majority population of Mamusa are the Turks; am I

24 right?

25 A. The population is mixed, Albanians living there, Turks too. A

Page 5410

1 new municipality has been formed there, but they still live there

2 together.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. You are welcome.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Nilsen.

6 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt, I would just

7 like the witness to clarify a bit regarding the Turks he is mentioning in

8 Prizren. On the question from my learned colleague he said that there

9 were no Turks living in Prizren, and then he was confronted that he said

10 that there was living a large number of them. I'm not sure whether he is

11 talking about Mamusa or Prizren. If the witness could clarify that.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the witness did give two quite

14 contradictory answers about Turks living in Prizren. Perhaps you might

15 determine which is correct. Were there Turks living in Prizren or were

16 there not, and were they living in large numbers, if there were.

17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that

18 everything entered on to the record is the result of the

19 cross-examination. From the answer that there were no Turks to the other

20 answer that there were Turks in large numbers. I think Ms. Nilsen should

21 deal with it in redirect if she wishes. In my view, everything is clear.

22 When I asked him the question about boards, he answered clearly what the

23 situation was in Mamusa, and now I moved on to another place. If you

24 think this requires clarification, I will seek it.

25 JUDGE PARKER: You carry on then, Mr. Djurdjic. We put the

Page 5411

1 problem to you. If you think it's best left as it is, carry on.

2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Am I right, Witness, that a considerable number of people of

4 Turkish ethnicity lived in Prizren in 1999?

5 A. I cannot hear very well.

6 Q. Can you hear me now?

7 A. Yes, it's better now.

8 Q. Witness, am I right that there was a considerable number of Turks

9 living in Prizren? I mean Turks by ethnicity, by origin.

10 A. This would be my answer, those who speak Turkish I consider them

11 Turks. I don't know their exact number, the exact figure of Turks living

12 there. I only know that those who speak Turkish are Turks.

13 Q. Thank you. And am I right that in all public buildings in

14 Prizren there were signs in three languages; in Albanian, in Serbian, and

15 in Turkish?

16 A. Yes, that's how it was.

17 Q. Thank you. And concerning Mamusa, I told you that the Turks were

18 the majority population there in 1999; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. There are more Turks living there.

20 Q. Thank you. From those people who arrived on the

21 26th or 27th March to Prizren, did you hear that there had been fighting

22 in that area?

23 A. When they came from Mamusha on the 27th in the evening, I didn't

24 hear anything about that. And you probably know, sir, that Mamusha is

25 not very far from Dushanove; it's about 17 kilometres or so.

Page 5412

1 Q. Yes. And how far is Pirane from Prizren, or from Dusanovo,

2 whatever?

3 A. About 10 kilometres far.

4 Q. What about Mali Krushe?

5 A. Krusa e Madhe, it's about 15 kilometres away. It's a little bit

6 further on the road to Gjakove.

7 Q. What about Landovica?

8 A. 3 kilometres from our village Xerxe.

9 Q. How far is Celine?

10 A. Celina is closer than Xerxe.

11 Q. And until the 28th of March, you did not hear that in all these

12 villages or in areas overlooking these villages, fighting was going on?

13 A. There weren't any fighting in our neighbourhood. On the other

14 parts, you can hear the noise of the military vehicles. You could hear

15 the firing on a daily basis. Shelling, tanks, all sorts of weapons.

16 Q. And how do you know whose weapons those were?

17 A. We knew that because when the forces would target the villages

18 that were further away, they would use the 105 millimetre weapons,

19 whereas they would use smaller calibre weapons for the villages that were

20 closer to our neighbourhood.

21 Q. And how do you know that?

22 A. I know because the 105 millimetre cannons are used for distant

23 targets. I know this from the time I served my military service. And

24 you can tell the difference from the sound as well.

25 Q. What was your specialty in the army?

Page 5413

1 A. Infantry.

2 Q. And where did you see a cannon?

3 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly when I saw a cannon for a first

4 time. I've been going to Belgrade from 1963. I've seen all different

5 types of weapons and weaponry, so I can tell the difference. That I

6 know.

7 Q. Thank you. And how do you distinguish -- even if I accept that

8 you distinguish between weapons by sound, but how can you distinguish who

9 is firing those guns?

10 A. I know that the military forces always attacked the people, and

11 that's why I knew where they were firing, where they were positioned. It

12 was only the army and the police that had those types of weapons.

13 Q. Thank you. If you wanted to fight, could you do it on your own,

14 against yourself?

15 A. You cannot fight against yourself. I served in the army, but I

16 never pointed my weapon at a civilian. Only those who used their weapons

17 against the civilians know the reasons why they did that.

18 Q. Tell me, do you know what the KLA is?

19 A. I saw KLA members after I arrived in Albania on television.

20 Otherwise, I didn't see them.

21 Q. When you saw them, what were they doing?

22 A. I saw them on television defending their people, defending their

23 own houses, defending their homeland.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Would you like a break at the present time,

Page 5414

1 Mr. Krasniqi?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm willing to continue,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Well, do let us know if you are feeling unwell,

5 won't you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do that.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Can you explain to me how was it that they were defending their

11 own houses and defending their homeland?

12 A. Please, I'm here to discuss my statement, and I can tell you

13 everything related to my statement. I can give you an answer, but I

14 don't think the questions you are making now are relevant.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We'd be grateful if you would help us by answering

16 these questions, Mr. Krasniqi. We have to decide in the light of many

17 things that are being considered in this trial what is relevant, and what

18 is relevant goes beyond your own particular experience. So we'd be

19 grateful to hear your answers. They will help us.

20 Mr. Djurdjic is trying to explore a number of issues wider than

21 the content of your statement perhaps. So it would be appreciated if you

22 could help him by giving some answers, and that in turn will help us.

23 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, I was asking you about something from your statement

Page 5415

1 since you provided an answer or two in that regard. Therefore, I would

2 kindly ask you to answer my previous question. How were they defending

3 their homeland and houses? In which way?

4 A. I will try to answer your question. If, for example, you are

5 attacked in your own house, you have to defend yourself. So our houses,

6 wherever they stood in fields, on hills, they were attacked; and the KLA

7 was there to protect these houses, to protect that land. I don't know

8 what other answer I can give you.

9 Q. Were you present during --

10 A. No, I was not.

11 Q. Where did you get that information from then?

12 A. But it is -- everything is clear to everyone. Everything was

13 done in the light of day.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me who was a member of the KLA in

15 Dusanovo, or who were members?

16 A. I cannot tell you this because simply I don't know.

17 Q. How come then you don't know that they were not active?

18 A. I'm telling you, sir, that if what happened to others happened to

19 me, I would have also taken up arms and protected my own home.

20 Q. Thank you. Where did you watch television, in Albania?

21 A. We had the television set there, we could follow what was

22 happening in our country, in Kosova.

23 Q. In which town were you, and when did you watch television?

24 A. I was in Kruja.

25 Q. Where were you accommodated?

Page 5416

1 A. We were distributed to different private homes.

2 Q. When did you arrive at Kruje?

3 A. We arrived in Kruja on the 28th after we left Dushanove at 5.00,

4 and on the 29th we arrived in Kruja.

5 Q. Thank you. At what time did you leave Dusanovo?

6 A. At 5.00. 4.00 or 5.00 we left. We were actually forced to leave

7 and go towards the border.

8 Q. At what time did you reach the border crossing?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ... hundred. At 1100.

10 Q. Thank you. How many kilometres are there between Dusanovo --

11 A. They say 18, but I think 16, around about the same figure. I

12 think 18 kilometres.

13 Q. Thank you. In Dusanovo, were there any Serb families there?

14 A. Yes, there were.

15 Q. Which families do you know of?

16 A. I know their names. There were about 40 households that lived

17 there.

18 Q. Do you know anyone's last name?

19 A. Boge, Nebojsa, Nidjivki [phoen] there were many of them.

20 Q. There were many Rexheps and Shefqets, but I would like to know

21 their last names.

22 A. Sir, I don't know their surnames because we didn't use to call

23 them by their last names. We called them by their first names. It's

24 not -- we spent a lot of time with them, in fact, but we called them by

25 their first names.

Page 5417

1 Q. Between the 24th of March of 1999, and up to the time when you

2 departed, was there any bombing in --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was Prizren struck from the air?

5 A. Yes, it was struck.

6 Q. Can you tell us where the bombs landed?

7 A. The bombs landed in Spilje [phoen], in Kasama [phoen], the

8 barracks.

9 Q. Did I hear you correctly as having said Svilene?

10 A. Yes. It's the same. We are talking about the same bombing.

11 Some may call it Spilje, some may spell it differently, but it's the same

12 place.

13 Q. I wanted to make sure. You said that the barracks were bombed.

14 Were the barracks in town?

15 A. It was in the outskirts of Prizren, on the road to Suhareke.

16 It's on the right-hand side.

17 Q. Yes, you understood what I meant. Can you tell me who was the

18 chief of police in Prizren of the police station?

19 A. No, I don't know.

20 Q. Thank you. Where is the Printex factory?

21 A. The Printex factory is below the railway.

22 Q. In the industrial part?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. When did you see tanks on the Printex factory compound?

25 A. I saw them on the 23rd of March when we went to work.

Page 5418

1 Q. What did the tanks look like?

2 A. The tanks were the tanks of the army of green colour, the army

3 tanks.

4 Q. How many tanks did you see?

5 A. I didn't count them. I couldn't give you an accurate figure, but

6 I would say about 15.

7 Q. Thank you. Before the war in 1999, what kind of uniforms did

8 police wear in Prizren?

9 A. The police had kind of dark blue uniform. I'm talking about the

10 period before the war. After the war, they had the same but they had

11 also camouflage colours.

12 Q. After what war?

13 A. During the war. I'm saying they had this camouflage uniform.

14 Q. Can you describe the uniform for me?

15 A. How can I describe it? How can I describe it here? I don't know

16 how. You show me something, I can tell you.

17 Q. Let's try it this way: What does camouflage uniform mean to you?

18 A. By this I mean that it is not a solid colour, but it's a colour

19 with patches. How can I say it to you? It is different from the

20 uniforms of the army. It's not the same. It's a mixture of colours.

21 Q. Very well. You said they had patches, but what were the hues,

22 the colours of the fabric?

23 A. How can I explain it to you now? Some were of lighter colours,

24 some were of darker hues. Patches were of a darker colour compared to

25 those of the army. How can I say? I don't know how.

Page 5419

1 Q. And what was the colour for the army?

2 A. It was of green, and the patches were bigger.

3 Q. Thank you. And did you see any other uniforms apart from the

4 two?

5 A. You are asking me to distinguish the colours. When we were

6 forced to leave the houses, I saw dark colours, black colours, masked

7 faces. All sorts of colours. It was only on the day that they attacked

8 us, they forced us to leave the houses. I saw people dressed in black

9 colours and wearing masks.

10 Q. All right. Are you trying to tell us that apart from these two

11 types of uniforms there was a third one you just mentioned?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. Will you tell me, these persons wearing the dark or black

14 uniforms, what kind of insignia did they have?

15 A. Didn't have any insignia.

16 Q. And who did the black uniformed troops belong to? Which

17 organisation?

18 A. The police, of course.

19 Q. Based on what are you saying that?

20 A. Even though I could answer the question you are asking of me, I

21 may say that usually they stayed with the police forces, but I think they

22 were even more dangerous because I think they belonged to special

23 intervention units. At least, this is what people said.

24 Q. So you don't know that? Somebody told you?

25 A. Nobody told me this. Nobody told me. But we lived through all

Page 5420

1 these things. It doesn't matter whether it was the police, the army, the

2 Arkan's forces, however, we suffered from them. They beat us up, they

3 forced us it to leave, they killed us, so for us it doesn't matter what

4 unit they belonged to.

5 Q. You just said Arkan's forces. What kind of forces were they, and

6 where did you see them?

7 A. I didn't see these forces, but whenever we saw that force was

8 being used, we thought that these forces belonged to Arkan, to this or to

9 that, so I couldn't say that these forces belonged to me for example,

10 because I didn't have such forces.

11 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard or did you see that the KLA's

12 military police wore black uniforms?

13 A. I saw the KLA uniforms only on television.

14 Q. On the 27th of March in the morning, what were you doing?

15 A. On the 27th of March, I went out to the main street, and I heard

16 the noises of the shelling and nothing else. Nothing in particular.

17 Q. When exactly when you got out into the street?

18 A. We went out several times. Whenever we heard there was a

19 commotion, a noise, we wanted to see what was happening, where the

20 population was going.

21 Q. Thank you. But tell me, that morning, what were you doing before

22 you went into the street? What was going on?

23 A. I woke up in the morning after sleeping. I went out. I did the

24 same thing that everybody does when you go out, trying to meet someone.

25 Q. Thank you. What was the time when you got up?

Page 5421

1 A. Sir, please, I don't remember when I woke up this morning. How

2 can I remember when I woke up ten years ago?

3 Q. Thank you. And who were you supposed to meet?

4 A. We didn't have particular meetings, you know. I didn't have

5 anyone to meet. I simply went out to see what was going on outside.

6 Q. You answered me "trying to meet someone"?

7 A. Yes, but I mean, you come across some neighbours, some friends

8 from another neighbourhood, from your neighbourhood, you ask what he is

9 doing, what has he been doing and so on. Things like this.

10 Q. Thank you. Was it already day?

11 A. I'm not clear about your question. Are you asking me about the

12 morning or about the evening?

13 Q. I'm asking you that morning and when you got out into the street,

14 had it dawned already?

15 A. No, it was daylight. We don't wake up in the night.

16 Q. Thank you. How far did you go from your house?

17 A. From my street to the main street, I already explained earlier

18 on, it is only 200 metres.

19 Q. Just give me a brief answer. I don't know where you went when

20 you left your house. When you left your house, where did you go?

21 A. When I left my house, as usual, even today, I go out, walk around

22 for 200 metres, go to the main street that links Prizren with Gjakove.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's time for

25 the break.

Page 5422

1 JUDGE PARKER: We must have a break now, Mr. Krasniqi, it will

2 give you time to improve your feeling. We will resume in half an hour

3 and the court officer will assist you during the break. We will resume

4 at 11.00.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

10 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, we reached the moment when you got out of your house and

13 went to the main road. Can you tell me if you ran into anyone? Did you

14 talk to anyone?

15 A. Yes, I spoke with my neighbours.

16 Q. Where did you meet up, and where did you talk?

17 A. Well, we exchanged greetings, discussed if they saw anything on

18 TV, what were the news, what was going on. That sort of talk.

19 Q. And what did you do then?

20 A. I then went back home. They went back to their own homes, to

21 their own work.

22 Q. Thank you. And what did you then do in your own house?

23 A. The usual work I do at home.

24 Q. Thank you. Was the situation completely normal at the time?

25 A. No, it wasn't completely normal.

Page 5423

1 Q. Yes, but tell me what was going on.

2 A. Of course, the situation was not normal. You could hear noises

3 on all sides, people would say -- would tell us what was going on. There

4 was fighting. It wasn't normal.

5 Q. Thank you. But you said you went back home, you talked to

6 people, exchanged whatever you exchanged, and then you went back home?

7 A. I did go back home.

8 Q. Thank you. And what happened then?

9 A. I did my usual work around the house, and on the evening of the

10 27th, we went out to the place where we usually stayed together, on the

11 main road, saw the convoys of people coming towards us, people that had

12 been expelled from Mamusha village. We knew some of the people in that

13 convoy. We invited them to stay in our village because there was nothing

14 going on in our village. They stayed that night, in our village. And on

15 the following day, big forces came, they positioned themselves on the

16 main crossroads. So I think I'm answering your questions.

17 Q. You are not answering my question. I don't want to hear you

18 telling stories. We came to the point when you came back home from that

19 intersection, and I'm asking you what happened then at your home. What

20 was going on? Let's not waste time, please answer my questions as

21 briefly as possible.

22 A. I think I answered your question. When I came back home, I did

23 my usual work around the house. There were shelling and gun-fire that

24 was heard. There was no other discussion at the time.

25 Q. Thank you. What kind of work did you do, and what was the time?

Page 5424

1 A. I told you, it was morning when I went out. I returned home, did

2 some work in the garden. I could hear the sound of gun-fire. That's

3 all.

4 Q. What happened then?

5 A. We stayed in the house until the evening, then we went out to the

6 same place, to the main road, and we saw the convoy of people coming from

7 the direction of Mamusha.

8 Q. Witness, I'm not asking you about the evening of the 27th. I'm

9 asking you about the morning of the 28th, and as far as I understand, you

10 are answering now questions about the morning of the 28th. I'm not

11 interested in the evening of the 27th. I'm interested in that morning of

12 the 28th.

13 You went to the centre, you came back home, you did some work in

14 your house. What happened then?

15 A. Sir, I think you are mixing up the questions. I thought you were

16 asking me about the 27th when we invited these people to stay in our

17 village. On the 28th, we were first out together with these refugees

18 that came from Mamusha. So please tell me now, are you interested in the

19 morning of the 27th or the morning of the 28th, because I'm not clear?

20 Q. The morning of the 27th was not my question. My question was

21 about the morning of the 28th.

22 A. Sir, now I will answer your question about this date. On the

23 28th we woke up earlier than on other dates because we had refugees. We

24 had to prepare some food for them. So it was normal to wake up earlier

25 than usual.

Page 5425

1 Q. And then what did you do?

2 A. We talked. We discussed the way they were expelled from their

3 village, what happened there. Because in our village there was no police

4 presence until the 28th, that's why we talked about the situation in that

5 village, what made them flee, what else happened, if anyone was killed

6 there, and so on.

7 Q. And then?

8 A. In the evening -- now, do you want me to tell you word by word

9 everything that we discussed until that evening, or what happened that

10 evening?

11 Q. Witness, I am being interpreted very well, and you understand

12 perfectly well what I'm saying. We are talking about the morning of the

13 28th. I'm asking you only about that, nothing else. And please continue

14 to answer my question. What were you doing on the morning of the 28th?

15 You started answering and then I asked you, and then what?

16 A. On the 28th we woke up early in the morning. We talked with the

17 guests staying at our house, discussing the situation in that village.

18 That's all.

19 Q. Yes. You told me that already. And I asked you what happened

20 then, what did you do afterwards?

21 A. Sir, this was not ten days ago. This was ten years ago.

22 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you on the basis of your statement what

23 happened later. Do you know?

24 A. I really don't know what answer to give you. You have the right

25 to ask me, and I have the right to answer your question. If you are

Page 5426

1 asking me now what happened on the 28th in the evening, I will answer

2 that. I don't know what else to tell you about the morning.

3 Q. I'm not interested in the evening of the 27th or the 28th. I

4 don't know which dates you are talking about now. I'm asking you about

5 the morning, what happened in the morning, and you are telling me for the

6 third time that you talked to your neighbours, and I'm asking you what

7 happened after that. What did you do?

8 JUDGE PARKER: The witness has told you, Mr. Djurdjic, that he

9 remembers nothing specific on the morning of the 28th except at having

10 risen early, helping with the feeding of the people that had stayed

11 overnight. He then talked to them about affairs in their village. Now,

12 that's what the witness remembers about the morning of the 28th. He can

13 remember something about the evening of the 28th, if you want to learn

14 something about that.

15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I'm

16 asking questions on the basis of the statement that I have in front of

17 me. I'm not interested in just any date. I'm interested in the morning

18 after that evening, and I'm coming back to that morning for the third

19 time because that's when the events began, and the witness keeps coming

20 back to the night.

21 JUDGE PARKER: There may be some confusion because of your

22 persistence with the particular date, Mr. Djurdjic. Would you like me to

23 try to cut through it?

24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would be very happy if you did.

25 JUDGE PARKER: You've told us, Mr. Krasniqi, that police came to

Page 5427

1 your village. Are you able today to remember what date that was?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The police came on the 28th.

3 On the 27th we offered shelter to the people who came to our village. On

4 the 28th, the police forces entered our village in the afternoon at

5 around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. So I can tell you now about this part of the

6 day because retelling here word by word the discussions I had with the

7 refugees in the morning, and telling the counsel what I ate that morning

8 and all these other small things I did, I wouldn't be able to say

9 everything exactly how it happened, in what consequence.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I think we all understand that,

11 Mr. Krasniqi. Perhaps you can tell us when you first were aware of

12 police in your village. What did you see or hear that afternoon?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 28th, since the counsel

14 wants to know what happened, as I said earlier, on the 27th, these

15 refugees came to our village, stayed in our houses. On the 28th we woke

16 up, we discussed the situation in their village, we had something to eat,

17 and we all shared the same concern, what was going to happen, what was

18 going to happen with us, where we would end up.

19 And at around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., there was noise at the gate to

20 the yard. The police entered forcefully into the yard. They didn't ask

21 us anything. They ordered us to raise our hands in the air. They

22 started beating us. They beat my wife, my daughter, my brother, myself.

23 They beat up some refugees. One of them cut a small girl in her throat

24 nearly killing her. So if the counsel is interested in these things, I

25 can tell him everything that happened. I cannot recall everything I ate

Page 5428

1 that day, but these things I recall very well.

2 JUDGE PARKER: We've now moved on, Mr. Krasniqi, to the afternoon

3 at about 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. And you tell us that at that

4 time the -- there was a noise at the gate to your yard, and the police

5 forcefully came into the yard.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I understand Mr. Djurdjic would like you to

8 tell us what happened after that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the police entered the

10 village, they positioned themselves on the crossroads of the

11 neighbourhood with a tank. They entered my yard forcefully. They didn't

12 ask us anything. They made us raise our hands in the air, pushed us

13 behind the wall, took our money, beat us up, and told us that there was

14 no place for us there in the village, that we had to go to Albania.

15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I don't want you to repeat the statement that we

17 already have. I want you to answer my questions. Is it correct that you

18 spent four or five hours at home that afternoon?

19 A. That's correct, I was at home.

20 Q. Thank you. From that time when you went out in the morning and

21 when you talked to the people until 1600 hours, did you spend all that

22 time at home?

23 A. Yes, I was at home, sir. We had refugees staying with us, as I

24 said, and we stayed there in the house together until the police forces

25 came.

Page 5429

1 Q. Thank you. How do you know then what happened with the Serbian

2 families?

3 A. I don't know if anything happened to the Serb families. When the

4 NATO bombing started, the following day in the morning we saw that their

5 houses were empty. I don't know where they went to.

6 Q. Thank you. And how do you know that the house -- that the

7 village was surrounded because you stayed at home all the time?

8 A. I knew that because as of the 27th when they had expelled people

9 from Mamusha, there was continuous movement of police and army forces, so

10 we knew that we had them all on our sides.

11 Q. Tell me what you personally knew about the movements of the army

12 and the police.

13 A. I don't know how to describe this to you, sir. You keep asking

14 me the same questions. I told you several times that I would usually go

15 out to the main street. Not only the time of the war, but on every-day

16 basis almost. So I was able to see this constant movement. And when

17 there was increased movement, we could tell that we were in danger. And

18 now you are asking me why I went out to the main road.

19 Q. That's not what I asked you. I just said that you went out in

20 the morning, and this was happening at 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. How did you

21 gain any personal knowledge considering that from the morning until 4.00

22 or 5.00 p.m., you did not leave your house?

23 A. Not at 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning, sir.

24 Q. 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. what?

25 A. I didn't even mention 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning. It was 4.00

Page 5430

1 or 5.00 p.m. on the 28th when the forces entered the village. I never

2 mentioned the morning of the 4th -- the morning of the 27th or the 28th,

3 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning.

4 Q. Well, I cannot explain all of that to you now. It's all in the

5 transcript. But my question was, and please try to focus, you stated

6 that in the morning, you went out onto the main road, then you went back

7 home, and then until 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., you did not leave your home.

8 A. That's correct. And I keep saying the same thing.

9 Q. You did not leave your home in that interval?

10 A. No, I didn't leave my house. I would go out to the gate and from

11 there I could see the movement of the police and other forces on the

12 road. And when they entered the village, it was around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m.

13 Q. From your gate, where did you see the police entering the

14 village?

15 A. As I said, sir, the main road is very close to the gate to my

16 yard, and the crossroads where they positioned themselves is not further

17 than 50 metres from the gate to my yard, and I could see them.

18 Q. Witness, your street runs parallel to the main road, and you say

19 there are a number of buildings between your house and the main road.

20 Your gate facing the street does not provide a view of the main road?

21 A. You cannot see the road.

22 Q. Thank you. And how, then, are you able see to that your village

23 is surrounded by the forces?

24 A. Sir, as I said earlier, the main road is only 200 metres away

25 from my house. The first road turning to the right is very close to my

Page 5431

1 house. That's a crossroads and that's where they positioned themselves

2 with the tanks, with everything. That crossroads is only 50 metres away

3 from my house. Whereas the main road, the Prizren-Gjakove Road is 200

4 metres away.

5 Q. I accept that you saw what you just told me, but how did you

6 see -- how were you able to see that your village was surrounded by any

7 forces, since you have stated that?

8 A. On both sides of the street there are sidewalks, broad sidewalks,

9 and you can see everything that goes on. You can see even if someone is

10 walking, let alone large number of military forces.

11 Q. And your street?

12 A. In my street.

13 Q. What were you able to see from your gate? Can you describe that

14 for me?

15 A. I saw movements of police forces, and I withdrew, went back to my

16 yard. I entered my yard. I talked with my family, telling them that

17 there is a large police presence and something is going to happen

18 probably. Before I ended my conversation with the family, the police

19 forces entered my yard. They forced the door open and entered my yard.

20 They were about 20 policemen.

21 They didn't ask us anything, only ordered us to raise our hands

22 up, beat up our family members, and drove us out of the family together

23 with those refugees that we sheltered on the 27th that I mentioned

24 earlier. They maltreated us in the yard. So you asked me earlier how do

25 I know. This is how I know. I'm telling you. Since you were not there

Page 5432

1 to experience what I went through, you don't have the right to ask me

2 about the things which I went through.

3 Q. Thank you. You say you were in the yard when the 20 policemen

4 entered it. Who was in the yard with you?

5 A. My family members and those refugees that I took in the day

6 before.

7 Q. Which of your family members were there?

8 A. Myself, my wife, my two daughters, two sons, my daughter-in-law,

9 and their small daughter.

10 Q. And how many people from Mamusha were there that you had taken

11 in?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is answering in B/C/S.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were 28 people there together

14 with my family members, and we were all seated.

15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Were they in the yard when the police came?

17 A. Yes, they were in the yard.

18 Q. Am I right in saying that the police told you to leave the yard

19 and go out into the street immediately?

20 A. Yes, they did many bad things to us, but I'm not in a position to

21 describe to you in detail what we experienced that day. They beat up all

22 of us, but as I said, I am not in a position to tell you everything they

23 did to us that day.

24 Q. Witness, I don't think anyone beat you up, and that's why you

25 cannot tell us what took place on that day. I put to you that you set

Page 5433

1 out to Kukes because of the fear of being bombed and the fear of war?

2 A. Sir, I don't have an answer for your question, which seems to me

3 a very provoking one. I didn't leave because of the NATO air-strikes. I

4 left because of what the Serb forces did to my family and to myself

5 personally. Not because of NATO bombing. Only because of the Serb

6 forces and only because of what they did to us in my yard.

7 Q. Then answer my question, please. How long did the 20 policemen

8 stay in your yard before you left?

9 A. If I got you right, when the policemen entered my yard by force,

10 they didn't give us any time to get ready. They forced us to leave in 10

11 minutes. They entered by force and forced us to leave the house.

12 Q. Was it daylight when you were forced to leave the yard?

13 A. Sir, it was 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. It was still

14 daylight. When they entered the yard, as I told you, I'm repeating it,

15 they didn't ask our opinion. They cut the eight-month baby by the throat

16 and forced us to leave without asking our consents. They simply ordered

17 us to leave and go to Albania. They used violence against us. They said

18 there is no place for you to stay in Kosova, go to Albania.

19 Q. And you went on foot; am I correct?

20 A. We were forced to leave, as I told you. They did not allow us to

21 go back and fetch our identity cards, documents, so we joined the column

22 and went to Albania.

23 Q. Which road did you take from your house?

24 A. The same road, the main road which was 200 metres away from my

25 house. We joined the column and started to walk in the direction of

Page 5434

1 Albania along the main road.

2 Q. Did you turn from the main road?

3 A. Yes. We turned left towards Prizren and then straight to

4 Albania.

5 Q. Witness, I'm asking you which road you took through Prizren to

6 Vrmnica. Where did you reach the main road?

7 A. From my street to the main road, there are only 200 metres.

8 From -- we met the neighbours and together with went to the main road

9 linking Prizren, that road goes in the direction of Morine, in the

10 direction of the border.

11 Q. I believe you understand what I'm asking you. You followed the

12 main road, and now I'd like to know which road you took through Prizren

13 to Vrmnica. Which road did you use to go through Prizren?

14 A. Why are you not asking me where we went? We went to Prizren,

15 then we took the road that goes towards the industrial plant and that

16 road goes to Dragash-Vermice. You know it better than I. Why are you

17 provoking me, sir?

18 Q. Witness, I'm not trying to provoke you. In order to reach

19 Vrmnica from Dusanovo, one can take two roads through Prizren. I'm

20 asking you which one you took so that I could ask you the next question.

21 I'm not doing this without a reason.

22 A. When you enter through the main road, that road which links

23 Prizren-Gjakove, you enter the city. We turn on the right, and we went

24 to -- before entering the city, we entered that street. We couldn't

25 enter the city because the police didn't let us. We went that road that

Page 5435

1 goes to Vermice. I don't know how else can I explain to you other than

2 take you by the hand and take you to the place.

3 Q. You needn't do that, Witness. I know the road itself. Did you

4 go through the industrial area next to your factory eventually reaching

5 the hygiene company on the road to Vrmnica?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. You could have said so a while ago.

8 A. I told you, but you mix it all up with your questions.

9 JUDGE PARKER: We understood the witness to tell us that sometime

10 ago, Mr. Djurdjic. Your questions are not clear either to us or to the

11 witness and they often lead him in a wrong direction in answer. So your

12 last comment was not well justified. If you could carry on, please.

13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm trying to be as

14 clear as possible without any hidden intentions. There are only two

15 roads, one through the centre of town and the other one that was

16 confirmed by the witness --

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, we got through the town, we know the

18 road, could you move on from there, please, whatever your next question

19 may be.

20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. The tractor you described in your statement, where did you see

22 that along your route?

23 A. The tractor I saw when we returned above the school, there is the

24 railway which is parallel to the main asphalt road, we were about 150

25 metres down before the tractor -- before we went to the tractor. I saw

Page 5436

1 two, three young lads who, upon seeing the police, tried to flee. The

2 police shot them killing two of them, and I am proving it to you, if you

3 believe me, that when we approached that tractor, we saw them falling

4 down in the middle -- in the place between the railway and the road. I

5 hope you understand me, sir. We simply saw them. We didn't dare to do

6 anything because I am afraid they would have done the same to us.

7 Q. How far were you from your house when this incident took place?

8 A. About 1200 metres, I would say, from my house to this place.

9 Q. How much time did it take you to cross that distance?

10 A. When you walk alone, it might take 15 minutes; but if you are

11 part of a convoy, as I was, it might have taken longer.

12 Q. Where were the policemen that you say opened fire at those young

13 men?

14 A. The policemen were in that place below the school. I'm sure you

15 know the place better than I. I'm telling you, you don't seem to believe

16 what I'm saying, you may verify it for yourself.

17 Q. The school is on the left-hand side of the road going the way you

18 were taking?

19 A. On the left side of the road that goes to Prizren is a school

20 where our kids go.

21 Q. Thank you. Did the convoy or the column occupy the whole road

22 along the entire distance you travelled?

23 A. Yes, it occupied the whole road.

24 Q. Thank you. The young men you referred to, why did they begin to

25 flee, if you know?

Page 5437

1 A. I didn't talk with them. I was far from them. I didn't meet

2 them, but usually the young men fled the police forces because they took

3 them to the barracks, and they never returned them. They used them to do

4 something for them or kill them, I don't know.

5 Q. These men were on a tractor that was part of the column; am I

6 correct?

7 A. Yes. They jumped off the tractor when they went to that place I

8 mentioned between the railway and the road; the police killed them.

9 Q. Witness, the railroad is to the right of road in the direction of

10 where you were going; right?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Did they run across the tracks, and did you see them do that?

13 A. No, no, they didn't manage to because there is an empty space of

14 20, 30 metres between the road and the railway tracks; and it was in that

15 space that they were shot at by the police and killed. So they didn't

16 manage to cross the tracks.

17 Q. Thank you. And the policemen were next to the school?

18 A. Yes, they were next to the school, in the school, in the main

19 road where I turned to Prizren. As I said, the entire neighbourhood was

20 surrounded by police.

21 Q. What time was it when it took place?

22 A. I said to you, it was about 4.00, 5.00 in the afternoon.

23 Q. Thank you. You haven't mentioned coming across a check-point.

24 Where was the first check-point you came at?

25 A. The first check-point was in our street.

Page 5438

1 Q. What were they doing there, the people manning the check-point?

2 A. They were police, army forces there, moving about. There were

3 tanks placed at every intersection with cannons 105 millimetres. They

4 were above the tanks.

5 Q. Thank you. Where was the next check-point after that?

6 A. The second was in the school. As I said, at every intersection

7 in our neighbourhood there were forces, even in front of the houses

8 sometimes.

9 Q. Thank you. So the second check-point was in the school itself?

10 A. Yes, yes. At the school. The third was at the school.

11 Q. Thank you. And the next check-point after that?

12 A. Every 50 metres, every 20 metres there was one.

13 Q. And what occurred at those check-points?

14 A. The worst you can say occurred there. They took people out of

15 the convoy in groups sometimes, and we don't know who the policemen were,

16 and I don't know what happened to them. We know nothing what happened to

17 them after that.

18 Q. Did anyone stop you at the check-points?

19 A. We were part of the convoy. We didn't leave the column, the

20 convoy, because otherwise we might have been shot.

21 Q. Thank you. Save for the tractor, as you were walking down the

22 main road, did you notice anything else happening?

23 A. Yes. We saw people being taken out of the convoy and not

24 returning. We saw villages burned down, houses burned down or houses in

25 flames. All such things.

Page 5439

1 Q. Thank you. At the border you saw a policeman you knew from

2 Dusanovo?

3 A. Yes, Nebojsa.

4 Q. Where was his house in Dusanovo?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the school.

6 Q. Did you know whether he continually resided in his house in

7 Dusanovo throughout this period?

8 A. Nebojsa, yes, he lived there all his life. I found him there.

9 Q. We are talking about Nebojsa Ognjanovic [phoen]; am I correct?

10 A. I don't remember that, to tell you the truth. I only know that

11 he was working in the customs. He was a policeman there.

12 Q. Yes. His brother was a customs officer at the border crossing.

13 A. No, no, Nebojsa himself worked at the customs.

14 Q. Very well. Witness, where did you give your first statement?

15 A. My first statement was given in Kruje in April. The date of the

16 statement, I don't remember, but when you said that it was the

17 12th of March, I remembered it was not on that date, but it was on the

18 12th of April.

19 Q. I was not the person to say that, but it was rather my learned

20 friend. In any case, who was present on the occasion when you gave that

21 statement? Who did you give the statement to?

22 A. When we were there, the place where we were staying, there were

23 two persons, a man and a woman, and the interpreter, a lady, asked me --

24 I didn't know -- asked me something I didn't know I was supposed to give

25 an interview. I thought she was asking me for someone. And she said to

Page 5440

1 me that this gentleman wants to ask you why you are here and what

2 happened to you and so on. And that was how it came that I gave this

3 statement. She asked me as you are asking me now about these events, and

4 I told them what I'm saying now, these things. Nothing more than what

5 I'm saying here.

6 Q. Thank you. When did you sign that statement?

7 A. I signed it on the 10th or the 13th of December, 1999.

8 Q. Where did you sign it?

9 A. At the house.

10 Q. In Dusanovo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who was present?

13 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember.

14 Q. On that occasion, it was the first time you saw that statement?

15 A. Yes, it was the first time.

16 Q. Thank you. Was the same person present the second time around as

17 the first time when you gave the statement?

18 A. No, it was not the same person.

19 Q. Who was there with you the second time when you signed the

20 statement in your house?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Nilsen.

22 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, the witness has already replied to

23 that question.

24 JUDGE PARKER: He has. He has no recollection, Mr. Djurdjic.

25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Very well. He does not remember.

Page 5441

1 Q. But do you remember how many people came to your house on that

2 occasion when they brought your statement with them?

3 A. The first time around, there were two of them; and the third time

4 there were three of them in 2004 when some corrections were made on

5 19th of September, 2004.

6 Q. Thank you. When were you born?

7 A. I was born in Pagarusha.

8 Q. No. When were you born?

9 A. When I was born?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I was born on the 5th of May, 1945.

12 Q. Your personal identification number says that you were born on

13 the 10th of May, 1945.

14 A. Sir, every document that was issued to me was with a date I gave

15 you, the 5th of May, 1945. All the documents that were issued to me bear

16 this date.

17 Q. You never told anyone that there was a mistake in terms of your

18 ID number. You never tried to correct that?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, is there any issue about the

20 identity of this witness?

21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, having in mind the

22 statement that was signed and the problems surrounding the year of birth,

23 I'm not convinced that the procedure that was followed was valid. That's

24 why I'm asking these questions.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It's not going to assist this Chamber whether the

Page 5442

1 witness was born on the 5th or the 9th of May, 1945, Mr. Djurdjic. There

2 are some issues in the evidence of the witness that are quite material to

3 the question of what occurred in the village and by that means to the

4 question of the guilt or innocence of your client. Could I suggest you

5 concentrate on those instead of an issue such as whether there is a for

6 or five-day error about the date of birth of this witness.

7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm at the very end

8 of my cross-examination, but I'm not certain whether this witness gave

9 this statement in the first place. The only thing I know is that he is

10 sitting here testifying. We've just confirmed that the statement of the

11 12th of April was not signed as originally stated but that it was signed

12 when they visited him at his house.

13 Concerning the first statement, there is no name of the

14 interpreter, on the second one there is. The signature on the statements

15 from 1999 in April and December seem to me to be different. That's what

16 I wanted the witness to explain. That was the gist of my questions, and

17 I guess he has provided some answers.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Why have you taken the long way around it,

19 Mr. Djurdjic? The witness has looked at the statement has said it is

20 his. Now, if you think it is not his signature and you have some basis

21 for that, ask the witness if it is his signature instead of troubling

22 about an error on the date of birth of the witness. If you want to

23 question the signature, please do so.

24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I don't know

25 how to follow this up. The statement that mistakenly stays the

Page 5443

1 12th of May [as interpreted] in 1999 was not signed on that day but later

2 as the witness says. And then there's the second statement of December

3 1999 that he signed. I wanted to ask him about that and he provided some

4 answers. Had I put it another way, he probably would not have provided

5 me with those answers. I apologise for having gone the roundabout way.

6 In any case, I would I like to thank the witness, since this is the end

7 of my cross-examination.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

9 Ms. Nilsen, do you re-examine?

10 MS. NILSEN: Your Honours, I would just like to ask the witness a

11 question regarding the statement he gave in 1999.

12 Re-examination by Ms. Nilsen:

13 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you have already clarified that that statement you

14 gave in 1999 was given in April; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. It was more like an interview. It was not read back to me.

16 However, in December 1999 they showed me the statement, read it out to

17 me, and I signed it.

18 Q. Exactly. On the very top of the first -- the second page of the

19 statement from April 1999, it says that it is an informal statement of

20 you. Did you have that impression also, as you said, you didn't read

21 through it?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. It's like a conversation they had with me,

23 an interview. I didn't sign anything at that stage. When I returned

24 home after the war, sometime in late 1999, in December, they came, they

25 showed me the statement, read it back to me, and I signed it.

Page 5445

1 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: JOSEPH MAISONNEUVE

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

4 Ms. Kravetz has some questions for you.

5 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

7 Q. Good morning, Witness, could you please state your full name for

8 the record?

9 A. Joseph Omar Michel Maisonneuve.

10 Q. Thank you. Sir, I understand that you are a retired

11 Lieutenant-General from -- with the Canadian forces; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. For how long did you serve with the Canadian forces?

14 A. Exactly 34 years and ten months.

15 Q. And while you were in active service, did you spend sometime in

16 Kosovo?

17 A. Yes, I did, probably a total of about 3 months on the ground in

18 Kosovo.

19 Q. And when was that?

20 A. I deployed about the middle of December, 1998, and left in March,

21 middle of March, 1999.

22 Q. And what was your function in Kosovo during that period when you

23 were deployed there?

24 A. I was head of the regional centre that was based in Prizren in

25 the south part of Kosovo.

Page 5446

1 Q. And to which --

2 A. With the OSCE, pardon me, yes.

3 Q. Okay. Sir, did you provide a statement to the

4 Office of the Prosecution in relation to your work with the OSCE in

5 Kosovo during this period?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Have you recently had the chance to review your statement?

8 A. Yes, I have.

9 Q. And having we viewed your statement, are you satisfied that the

10 information contained within this statement is true and accurate to the

11 best of your knowledge and belief?

12 A. Yes, I am.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly pause between

14 questions and answers for the sake of interpretation and the court

15 reporter. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: My apologies for that, we'll try to remember to

17 pause.

18 Your Honours, the statement is 65 ter number 02772, and I seek to

19 tender it into evidence. This statement has a series of attachments

20 which we also seek to tender. I do wish to point out that attachment

21 number 1 has already been admitted into evidence. This is Exhibit P836,

22 so we do not seek to tender it again. There are three further

23 attachments which we do not intend to tender. These are attachments 4,

24 11, and 12 to this witness statement. We have notified Defence of that,

25 and I understand -- I see my learned colleague is on his feet, so I

Page 5447

1 understand he has an observation to make in this regard.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

4 objections.

5 I would like to propose, as in the case of Mr. Ciaglinski, that

6 those exhibits, which were admitted in the Milutinovic case through this

7 witness, and across the bar table, be admitted in this case as well as we

8 did in the case of the previous witness. Hence, I have no objections to

9 what Ms. Kravetz just said. Rather, I propose that we should follow the

10 practice we had with the previous witness as this proved more efficient.

11 If I understood correctly, the Milutinovic case transcript will be

12 admitted into evidence here.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have any concern about that proposal,

14 Ms. Kravetz.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: No, Your Honour, I was just going to move to the

16 prior testimonies of this witness. I was just referring to the statement

17 and the attachments earlier, not to his prior testimony.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. First we will receive in evidence the

19 statement.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Statement under 65 ter 02772, Your Honours, will

21 be assigned P00851.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Now, is there a list of these exhibits or are you

23 going to move each one separately?

24 MS. KRAVETZ: We would prefer to have the exhibits be part of the

25 same exhibit numbers, so they've all been uploaded as one exhibit. If it

Page 5448

1 will assist Your Honours, we can split them up and I can tender each one

2 of them separately, but that was not our intention. They form one single

3 exhibit presently in e-court.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Separate. It is more practical if it is separate,

5 Ms. Kravetz.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Looking at the list on the screen of the court

8 officer, there seem to be a large number. Is that something that can be

9 dealt with administratively during our next break, Ms. Kravetz?

10 MS. KRAVETZ: I was just going to suggest that, Your Honour. I

11 think that's the best way to proceed; it's a lengthy list.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll do that. Already the first of

13 those exhibits has been be exhibited in this trial. The remainder will

14 be received, and the court officer, in liaison with you, will identify

15 them and allocate numbers during the break. Thank you very much.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: That's fine. That's fine, Your Honour.

17 Q. Sir, did you previously testify before this Tribunal in the case

18 of Milosevic?

19 A. Yes, I did, in 2002.

20 Q. Have you had the chance before coming to court today to review

21 the transcript of your testimony in the Milosevic case?

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 Q. Did you also testify in the case of Milutinovic et al., in 2007,

24 in March 2007?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 5449

1 Q. And have you had the chance to review that transcript before

2 coming to court today?

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. And sir, if you were asked today the same questions that you were

5 asked in your prior testimony in the Milosevic case and Milutinovic case,

6 would you provide the same answers today?

7 A. Yes, I would.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender both of these

9 transcripts. The Milosevic transcript is 65 ter 02815, and I ask that

10 that be received.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as an exhibit.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That that will be assigned P00852, Your Honours.

13 MS. KRAVETZ: Milutinovic transcript is 65 ter 05199, and I ask

14 that that be received.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00853, Your Honours.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you. I will now proceed to read the in-court

18 summary for this witness.

19 The witness is a retired Lieutenant-General in the

20 Canadian Armed Forces. In November 1998 he was sent to Vienna to assist

21 in the formation of the OSCE Verification Mission in Kosovo, KVM. He was

22 later deployed to Kosovo and became the head of the KVM's regional centre

23 in Prizren. The witness describes his staff with the KVM in Kosovo. The

24 witness states that throughout KVM's time in Kosovo, Serb forces

25 perpetrated frequent acts of intimidation, killings, as well as

Page 5450

1 occasional shelling of villages with T-55 tanks, mortars, and Howitzers.

2 He describes the coordination between MUP and VJ forces on the

3 ground during joint operations. The witness met with several Serbian

4 government officials during his time in Kosovo, and he describes these

5 meetings.

6 The witness also gives an account of the Racak incident of

7 15 January 1999. He describes his meetings with VJ and MUP officials in

8 relation to this incident. The witness and other KVM personnel arrived

9 in Racak after the incident took place, and he describes his observations

10 in the village, including having seen bodies in the village.

11 Once the NATO bombing campaign began, the witness became head of

12 the KVM refugee task force in Albania. He coordinated with the Albanian

13 government and various organisations in order to obtain the testimony of

14 refugees coming into Albania. The witness describes the information

15 obtained by his team during their interviews with the refugees. There

16 were reports of systematic expulsions, mass killings, removal of ID

17 cards, and widespread burning and plundering of Kosovo Albanian villages.

18 That is the end of the in-court summary, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 Q. Sir, we have some minutes before the break, so I want to move to

21 some aspects of your prior -- your statement and the attachments to your

22 statement.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: And, Your Honours, I would ask with your leave that

24 the usher provide a hard copy of the statement and the attachments, given

25 that they are quite numerous, in order to ease reference of the witness.

Page 5451

1 If that could be handed to the witness, please. Thank you.

2 Q. Now, sir, you stated earlier that during your time in Kosovo, you

3 headed the KVM or the OSCE's regional office in Prizren. Just very

4 briefly, could you explain what was the mandate of your office during the

5 time you were there in Kosovo?

6 A. Basically, my mandate was within the boundaries of the regional

7 centre which essentially followed along the boundaries of the -- of the

8 southern region of the Prizren region of Kosovo, about one-fifth of the

9 territory of Kosovo. The mandate was essentially to verify the accord

10 between president Milosevic and Mr. Holbrooke that had been followed with

11 a couple of subaccords with respect to the situation of the authority

12 forces in Kosovo and the promotion of stability, if you wish, in the

13 region.

14 The idea was to ensure that there was a climate of normalcy as

15 much as possible to enable a final political solution to be found to the

16 crisis.

17 Q. You referred to a couple of subaccords to the main

18 Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement, and one of these is attached to your

19 statement in the bundle you have before you is marked as MM1. And I

20 would ask you to turn to that.

21 MS. KRAVETZ: This is, Your Honours, P836.

22 Q. Now, I would like to start with paragraph 1 of this agreement.

23 Are you familiar with this document, sir?

24 A. Yes, I am.

25 Q. You've had the chance to recently review it?

Page 5452

1 A. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor please slow down and the

3 witness as well. Thank you very much.

4 MS. KRAVETZ:

5 Q. Sir, we are reminded again to pause between question and answers.

6 Since we are speaking the same language today, we need to stop before you

7 answer the question. And I'll try to remember to do the same.

8 Point 1 of this agreement, this understanding between KDOM and

9 MUP or the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia, indicates that

10 all check-points will be dismantled and that FRY authorities will

11 establish 27 observation points and that one-third of these observation

12 points will be manned initially. Could you explain to the Court your

13 experience in implementing this first paragraph of this agreement?

14 A. Essentially the mission, my portion of the mission tried to

15 establish freedom of movement throughout our territory, throughout the

16 area that we were covering. And to ensure that there were indeed no

17 check-points. We frequently encountered them nevertheless, and at these

18 check-points, of course, we tried to ensure the authorities were treating

19 those that were being stopped with respect and with reasonable, if you

20 wish, a reasonable approach.

21 So this was -- this was an issue throughout my time in Kosovo.

22 Q. Now, with relation to the check-points that you said that you

23 frequently encountered, who would usually be manning these check-points?

24 A. Usually the MUP police.

25 Q. Now, the paragraph I referred to here in this agreement refers to

Page 5453

1 observation points and one-third of these observation points being manned

2 initially. Could you explain if you ever participated in any sort of

3 verification with regard to that aspect, with respect to the observation

4 points, the establishment of observation points?

5 A. Mm-hmm. Well, there's a fine line, I guess, between an

6 observation point and a check-point. Presumably an observation point is

7 where the observers or the people that are manning the observation point

8 are strictly observing, whereas presumably those who are doing -- in a

9 check-point, they would actually stop vehicles and personnel, and, you

10 know, check -- do document checks and so on.

11 So as I say, a fine line between that. We saw check-points

12 frequently. Observation points, I guess, if you really think of a

13 vehicle just being stopped with a couple police standing outside, that

14 would count as an observation point where people would be observing what

15 is going on. So that happened, I think, routinely. And my verifiers

16 indeed verified that and saw it quite often.

17 In terms of ensuring that there were exactly 27, and I, frankly,

18 don't think we, certainly in our area, did not pay attention to that --

19 to the letter.

20 Q. Mm-hmm. And here it indicates that only one-third of these

21 observation points were manned. How was that specific aspect verified?

22 A. It was not frankly. And this is one of the issues. Because the

23 mission was -- took, you know, was only on the ground for a few months,

24 we never had a chance to actually develop specific verification standards

25 that could be given to our regional centre to -- and passed on to our

Page 5454

1 personnel to ensure that they could go and check and make sure that, you

2 know, the numbers that were specified were actually the numbers that were

3 on the ground and so forth. So we never got to that point.

4 Q. Whenever you would observe or come across check-points or

5 observation points, would this information be sent up to headquarters,

6 the KVM headquarters in Pristina?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I see that it's the time for the break

9 or I'm one minute ahead, but.

10 JUDGE PARKER: On some views it could be called even three

11 minutes, but I take the hint, Ms. Kravetz.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm looking -- I'm looking at my clock here on the

13 screen.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We take the hint, but we will resume at five

15 minutes to 1.00. We must have a break now to enable tapes to be rewound,

16 and we'll resume at five past 1.00.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: While the witness is coming in, we understand the

21 group of exhibits is taking a little longer to resolve than expected. We

22 will continue leaving it to be resolved once we adjourn for today.

23 Thank you.

24 MS. KRAVETZ: And just on that point, Your Honour, I had

25 indicated when I was tendered the statement that there were three

Page 5455

1 attachments that I did not seek to tender. I understand from

2 Your Honours' instructions that those three attachments will not be

3 exhibited?

4 JUDGE PARKER: I understood that you were accepting

5 Mr. Djurdjic's suggestion that all the be exhibits should be received.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: I have to double-check. I believe that those were

7 not used in the Milutinovic case, but I will have to double-check that.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Check that, if they were used in the Milutinovic

9 case, they should be received. That's where we are at.

10 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The Defence agrees with any

12 decision about exhibits if they have been used before, our proposal

13 stands.

14 JUDGE PARKER: You're in a very cooperative mood, Mr. Djurdjic.

15 [The witness takes the stand]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Kravetz.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, before we -- at the break, we were discussing attachment 1

19 to your statement, which is the agreement between KDOM and the

20 Serbian MUP, also known as the Byrnes-Djordjevic agreement. Before we

21 turn back to that, I just wanted to clarify and answer you gave earlier

22 when I was asking you about the mandate of your office. You said that

23 you understood the mandate to be the verification of the implementation

24 of the Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement and subsequent accords.

25 How did you understand you were to carry out this mandate?

Page 5456

1 A. We carried that out through patrolling. Patrolling widely

2 throughout the region. By ensuring that we had good contact and regular

3 contact with all the authorities and all the parties in the area, the

4 local people as well. We ensured that we created a climate of trust and

5 of normalcy, as I said before. And we ensured the protection of human

6 rights by, you know, being there when there were incidents going on and

7 so forth.

8 Q. Okay. Very well. If we could now turn back to the document you

9 have there before you, and if we could focus now on number 2 of that

10 document, which refers to incidents of increased tension:

11 "The police will have the right upon not to find KDOM/OSCE to

12 perform patrol duties and armour vehicles with machine-guns et cetera.

13 An [indiscernible] which will be used exclusively in self-defence with

14 restraint?"

15 Could you tell us, based on your experience on the ground, how

16 this point of the agreement was implemented, if it was at all? And I'm

17 specifically interested in the notification aspect of this clause of the

18 agreement.

19 A. This -- an aspect I would say that the -- in terms of

20 notification, seldom were we notified when there would be patrols in

21 armoured vehicles outside of the normal zones. There were some patrols

22 that we were used to doing that we knew that the MUP would be doing, and

23 there was no problem. That went on regularly. And some of those were in

24 armoured vehicles.

25 But if there was a -- it they were patrolling areas that they

Page 5457

1 wanted to do without -- in areas that were not their regular one, I

2 guess, we seldom were notified of those.

3 Q. Now, you just mentioned earlier that part of your duties included

4 contact with authorities and all parties. Now, with respect to this

5 specific issue of notification, was this a matter you raised with MUP

6 authorities when you -- when it wasn't complied with?

7 A. Whenever there were issues of -- of -- issues with the

8 authorities, we definitely raised them. I can't remember any specific --

9 any specific issues or points that were raised from that point of view

10 after ten years, of course.

11 Q. Mm-hmm. Now, if we could look at paragraph 3 of this agreement,

12 it speaks about police withdrawal of its stationary forces, and there are

13 a series of localities which are listed there. When you arrived to

14 Kosovo, were you provided with any sort of base-line of the numbers of

15 police forces that were to be on -- or were authorised to be on the

16 ground in your area of responsibility?

17 A. No, we were not.

18 Q. And how were you able to verify whether this aspects of the

19 agreement was complied with, the withdrawal of police from the stationary

20 forces?

21 A. Again this is an aspect that we did not get to appoint where we

22 would receive the standards and the base-line, if you wish, of forces

23 that were meant to be in the region.

24 Q. So are you saying that you were not able to verify whether there

25 had been a compliance with paragraph 3 of this agreement because you were

Page 5458

1 not provided with the information by the MUP, would that be an

2 understanding of the situation on the ground?

3 A. That's correct. So because of that we went from the

4 understanding that the forces that were there on the ground, we wanted to

5 ensure that there was no reinforcement while we were deployed.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: My apologies again for that. I know we are going a

9 bit fast.

10 Q. And how were you able then to ensure whether there were any

11 reinforcements of MUP units on ground?

12 A. We -- we continued patrolling. We ensured that we had good

13 contact with the authorities. And, of course, we were also in contact

14 with the locals who would tell us if they saw an increased presence in

15 particular areas to enable us to follow through. So through this

16 programme of patrolling, this programme of contact with the authorities

17 and with the locals, we had a pretty good sense of whether major forces

18 were actually -- would actually have come into the province.

19 Q. And when you are talking about major forces coming into the

20 province, are you speaking about regular MUP units, or other types of

21 police units?

22 A. I would say all types of units, regular and perhaps special.

23 Q. Did you frequently observe special types of police units on the

24 ground when you were conducting your verifications?

25 A. On a few occasions we did report some special units, and we

Page 5459

1 noticed that they were special units because they were usually dressed in

2 different types of dress, different types of uniforms, than the regular

3 MUP units which were in dark blue uniforms.

4 Q. Mm-hmm. And when you were -- on the occasions that you observed

5 these units, was there anything -- anything else different about them

6 other than their uniform from their regular police units that you had the

7 opportunity to see?

8 A. I would say that the -- their behaviour was reportedly at times

9 more arrogant and in fact they -- usually these special units would be

10 quite scary for the locals. The local people were usually quite afraid

11 of them thinking that perhaps they were members of special units that

12 were brought in for special duties. So just by their behaviour and by

13 the fact that they would be in a particular area that had the -- often

14 the impact of -- or the effect of scaring the locals or worrying the

15 locals.

16 Q. And on the occasions that you were able to come across these

17 special units, would you -- would they be carrying any sort of task that

18 would be different from regular police units that you were familiar with?

19 A. I can think of one of the Rogovo incident, for example, where

20 they were usually in -- when I saw them they were, of course, looking at

21 the postmortem and what had happened in the area. I don't know exactly

22 what involvement they had during the actual incident, but certainly when

23 I came upon the scene, they were -- they were around, and they were

24 looking after, you know, the aftermath of the incident.

25 Q. Now, I would like to ask you a question - now that we are

Page 5460

1 speaking about MUP units - a question about your statement. And this is

2 at paragraph 18, on page 6 of the statement in the English; and I believe

3 it's page 5 on the B/C/S. You refer to VJ and MUP, and you say there

4 were frequent intimidations, killings, and occasional shelling of

5 villages by T-55 tanks, mortars, and Howitzers and by the VJ. And then

6 you say MUPs were the front-runners in any action and the VJ appeared to

7 have colluded or provided heavy fire support on several occasions.

8 Can you explain how it is that you came to that conclusion that

9 MUP were the front-runners in any action and VJ seemed to be providing

10 heavy fire support?

11 A. Mm-hmm. In both the instances where I personally witnessed the

12 events and those that were reported to me by my verifiers, which I take

13 as being true reporting and accurate factual reporting, it seemed to us

14 or the tendency was for us to see an increased presence of MUP which

15 would deploy out of their -- out of their barracks and be on the scene.

16 And then usually the VJ would stand a little further out and seemed to

17 provide - and again this is a sense of an assessment of the manner in

18 which operations would be conducted - the VJ would seem to provide a kind

19 of perimeter to the activity.

20 So this is what I mean about the -- about the precursors. The

21 MUP were usually the front-runners, they would arrive on the scene. And

22 then eventually the VJ would deploy in kind of a perimeter position.

23 This is, in fact, the assessment that I made with respect to the Racak

24 incident specifically.

25 Q. We will move to the Racak incident in a minute. Before getting

Page 5461

1 to that, just to clarify the answer, you said that you saw an increased

2 presence of MUP which would deploy out of their barracks and be on the

3 scene. Were these occasions when you saw increased presence of MUP out

4 of barracks, were these sort of deployments authorised or as you

5 understood pursuant to the agreements, the agreement we just saw and the

6 other agreements that were signed and gave you a mandate for

7 verification?

8 A. No, they were not. Though, I must add that they were often

9 provoked into these -- into these deployments. Specifically, for

10 example, in an incident near the small town of Randubrava, which is near

11 Prizren, which happened fairly close to the end of my time in Kosovo,

12 there was an incident of some firing and entire company of MUP actually

13 deployed to -- to look after -- to react to the activity; and after some

14 discussion and some negotiations, they returned to their barracks. But

15 this is kind of the -- very often they were provoked into doing that.

16 Q. Now, in situations like this based on the terms we saw of the

17 agreement we were just looking at, and moving specifically to

18 paragraph 2, would this be an instance where the requirement would be

19 provide prior notification to you before carrying out such type of

20 deployment?

21 A. I would say this would be an instance where they should provide

22 advanced notice. Although, I will again couch that by saying that there

23 are times when, if provoked, it would be understandable; and since my

24 verifiers were on the ground and often I was as well, that it would be

25 understandable that the deployment would happen and that we would make

Page 5462

1 contact on the ground with the MUP forces.

2 Q. Now, in relation to this provocation in paragraph 18, again, this

3 is the same paragraph I was reading from earlier, you say:

4 "Generally when provoked or perceived to be provoked, the

5 reaction of the VJ and the MUP was disproportionate to the provocation or

6 alleged attack by the KLA."

7 Can you explain what you mean by that statement?

8 A. Yes. I would say in this case, this was a regular reaction by

9 the authority forces. That sometimes a fairly minor incident, although

10 it's difficult to say what's a major incident and what's a minor

11 incident, but let's just say that the usual reaction from the VJ and the

12 MUP was usually quite disproportionate, that is, much stronger than the

13 provocation or attack by the other side. That seemed to be the typical

14 reaction there.

15 Q. And can you give us an example of what you mean when you say it

16 was disproportionate or much stronger?

17 A. Certainly. Coming back to the Randubrava incident, the incident

18 was in the small, small town. There seemed to be a couple or three --

19 some fighters that were taking actually pot-shots, and that -- and from

20 that small incident, an entire company of MUP was deployed on the ground

21 in armoured vehicles. So an entire company of course is about

22 100, 120 personnel. So that's an example of the type of reaction.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. And do you recall the date of this incident

24 that you are referring to, just approximately when it happened?

25 A. I think it was towards the end of February. I believe it was

Page 5463

1 towards the end of February.

2 Q. That would be --

3 A. 1999. It might even have been --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly not overlap.

5 MS. KRAVETZ:

6 Q. Sir, I would ask to you look at the screen and wait for the

7 cursor to stop before starting your answer, so that we cannot overlap

8 between question and answer. So I was just asking you about the date of

9 the incident.

10 A. I would say that it was probably towards the end of February 1999

11 or it may even have been in March of 1999.

12 Q. Thank you. And when you talk about entire company of MUP

13 deployed to the ground, are you speak being regular police officers or

14 these special units that you were describing earlier?

15 A. These would have been regular police units.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned -- referred to the Racak incident;

17 and I know it's also discussed in your statement in previous testimony.

18 I have a couple of questions just to clarify some aspects of your written

19 evidence on this incident.

20 In paragraph 34 of your statement, you say that when the

21 incident -- Racak incident took place, you were in Pec/Peja and that you

22 returned later that afternoon after receiving reports from your

23 personnel. Do you recall what exactly you were told had happened in

24 Racak and when it was, I mean, which date you are referring to

25 specifically?

Page 5464

1 A. Yes, on the 15th of January, 1999, we had been at a meeting of

2 the entire KVM in terms of a meeting of the operational commanders and so

3 on, and so all the representatives of the different regional centres were

4 meeting in Pec/Peja and we were, you know, discussing issues and

5 coordinating work. During that -- during the day on the 15th, we

6 received reports that there was a -- an action going on in the area of

7 Racak.

8 At this point, Racak was outside of my Regional Centre 1. It was

9 in Regional Centre 5's area. And Regional Centre 5 had no commander at

10 the time. They had -- they had a deputy commander, but the commander had

11 not been deployed yet into the regional centre. So at this point,

12 General Drewienkiewicz, General DZ, asked me if I would be able to

13 actually deploy to Regional Centre 5's area - and, of course, the deputy

14 commander was with me in Pec/Peja, so he was aware of this - and to see

15 if I could take a couple of my patrols from my area and deploy there to

16 Racak, which is what I did at the end of the day on the 15th.

17 Q. Now, just going back a little bit, you say that during the day of

18 the 15th, you received report that there was an action going on. From

19 whom did you receive these reports?

20 A. From the verifiers of Regional Centre 5, from those that were on

21 the ground.

22 Q. So were there verifiers actually at Racak at the time when this

23 action was happening?

24 A. Yes, there were.

25 Q. And what did they tell you was going on in Racak?

Page 5465

1 A. They were reporting that there was a -- there was some firing

2 going on. That there was -- there seemed to be an attack going on in the

3 village. Now, I don't remember exactly what the tenure of their comments

4 was, but that there was an action going on in the village of Racak.

5 MS. KRAVETZ: I see my learned colleague is on his feet.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.

7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm trying to find the passage

8 that you discussed right now with the witness about RC 5 verifiers in

9 Racak. If I could just get a reference, the number of the paragraph,

10 because I don't see anything like that in paragraph 34.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: That was additional information that the witness

12 provided, and I was asking for him to elaborate on what was in paragraph

13 34 of the statement and this is additional information that the witness

14 just provided. Paragraph 34 is on page 8 of the B/C/S.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It's in elaboration of paragraph 34, Mr. Djurdjic.

16 Additional information.

17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. But in

18 that case, I believe it would be in keeping with the rules for direct

19 examination of a live witness, and I don't believe such leading questions

20 are appropriate.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Take notice, please, Ms. Kravetz.

22 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes. I was just asking him to elaborate on what

23 was in the statement. That's all. And I don't believe I put a leading

24 question, but I do take Your Honours's guidance. Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We are grateful. Just carry on.

Page 5466

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. Sir, you told us that you went to Racak that day. What, if

3 anything, were you able to observe in the village when you arrived?

4 A. Well, I arrived in the dusk, dusk was falling at this point and

5 so I decided to go directly to -- to the hospital to see -- to meet there

6 with the folks that were on the ground from Regional Centre 5. And

7 indeed we -- they had begun to -- they had begun to -- to bring out some

8 of the casualties. Some of the local people who had been shot and hurt.

9 So that was the -- that's what I observed that night in -- on the night

10 of the 15th.

11 Q. And were the observers who were on the ground from

12 Regional Centre 5 able to provide you any additional information to what

13 they had seen happening at Racak that day?

14 A. Yes. Yes. That was indeed the time when I was told about the

15 action going on in the city of Racak, that some of my -- some of these

16 personnel from Regional Centre 5 had been on the hills and had seen tanks

17 firing into -- into the town, that had seen personnel or MUP personnel

18 going into -- into the city, into the town.

19 But that's the point at which I was told exactly what had

20 happened. I was told what had happened generally, I mean, in the city of

21 Racak, in the town of Racak.

22 Q. You say that your -- the personnel, KVM personnel was from

23 Regional Centre 5 had been up on the hills and was able to observe this.

24 Had they been -- did you receive any reports of whether there had been

25 any outgoing fire from Racak to this tank position that you said was

Page 5467

1 firing into the village?

2 A. No, actually and this is one thing that we couldn't really

3 understand. By our understanding, Racak had not been a stronghold of the

4 KLA. This seemed to be to us something that was very, you know, very

5 unprovoked; and so we could not understand why there had been such a huge

6 presence and a huge action in Racak, why this had happened.

7 Q. Now, you refer to having arrived to the village and seeing

8 casualties brought out. Do you recall approximately how many victims you

9 saw, and if you can say anything about the victims, the age, whether

10 female or male?

11 A. I believe at one point in my statement I do give some details of

12 the -- of the casualties; but I do remember, myself, being in the

13 hospital and seeing a woman and a young girl that were brought in exactly

14 at the time that I was there.

15 Q. Did you later return to Racak at any point in the following

16 days?

17 A. Yes. After giving direction to my verifiers and to those of

18 Regional Centre 5 to maintain a presence, as much as possible overnight,

19 I returned to my headquarters and came back in the morning. My verifiers

20 came onto the ground at 7.00, and then I arrived about 9.00 into the

21 village.

22 Q. And who accompanied you on that second occasion when you visited

23 the village?

24 A. I was accompanied as usually but my driver and actually by a

25 young lady who was my Serbian interpreter because I had intended also to

Page 5468

1 go visit the brigade commander from the brigade responsible for that area

2 to find out what happened, to liaise with him.

3 Q. Now, what were you able to observe when you arrived at 9.00 a.m.

4 in the village on 16th?

5 A. When I arrived, I went into the village and was able to observe a

6 couple of bodies before, you know, I wanted to actually go and see a few

7 bodies on my own, and then to get a sense of what was going on in the

8 village. Of course, I also spoke to my verifiers and then made my way in

9 towards the meeting.

10 Q. Were you able to meet with the brigade commander that day, the

11 brigade commander in charge of that area?

12 A. No, I was not. When I arrived at the meeting, I was greeted by

13 the liaison officer from the brigade, and I had a discussion with him and

14 he told me, and I think this is in the statement, about the fact that his

15 brigade commander was not available.

16 Q. Now, the minutes of this meeting are an attachment to your

17 statement. This is attachment 8, and I would ask you to please turn to

18 that.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: And this is in e-court page 83 of the English, and

20 page 99 of the B/C/S.

21 Q. Are you on that page?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Now, the notes of this meeting indicate that a Lieutenant-Colonel

24 Pera Petrovic was present. Is this the person that you were referring to

25 as being the liaison officer of the brigade?

Page 5469

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. And what was the purpose of this meeting that you had at the

3 brigade headquarters with Colonel Petrovic?

4 A. The aim of the meeting was to find out why this activity, this

5 incident had taken place, why vehicles, tanks, and so on had been firing

6 into what we thought was a completely empty village, a village of

7 civilians. And this seemed to me to be a disregard for the agreement,

8 keeping the troops in barracks and also keeping the situation normal.

9 Q. Now, the minutes record you saying, and this is at the top next

10 to "M," which I understand stands for your name --

11 A. Mm-hmm.

12 Q. -- record you saying:

13 "Your tanks, heavy artillery, mortars, and AV moved out of

14 barracks one week ago in complete violation of the agreement and are

15 still out and VJ will not cooperate with KVM."

16 Are these tanks and heavy artillery mortars that you are

17 referring to equipment that had been deployed to the area of Racak one

18 week before? Or where exactly had this deployment been made in violation

19 of the agreement, if you recall?

20 A. Now, this, you have to bear in mind that this brigade and this

21 area was outside of my regional centre, so these statements came as a

22 result of my discussions with Gil Gilbertson who is the deputy head of

23 the Regional Centre 5. They had their observers -- their verifiers had

24 observed these deployments outside of the barracks by the VJ and MUP.

25 So in this case, I'm sorry, by the VJ. And so this is -- this is

Page 5470

1 what I'm referring to. I had received that information from

2 Mr. Gilbertson who was with me at this meeting. I do recall, though,

3 that there was one particular area where there was a deployment of --

4 seemed to be a deployment of artillery pieces near the road near Racak

5 that had been contested by the KVM and, I believe, protested by

6 Regional Centre 5. This is before Racak.

7 Q. Mm-hmm. And this deployment of artillery pieces near Racak, this

8 was not an authorised deployment?

9 A. From my understanding, no, it was not.

10 Q. Was the VJ -- did the VJ have any artillery positions in the

11 Stimlje area that were authorised pursuant to the agreements, if you

12 recall? I know this was not your specific area of responsibility, but

13 based on what you know from that area?

14 A. I cannot recall.

15 Q. Thank you. That's fine.

16 Now, if we go down a bit further in these notes, we have

17 Colonel Petrovic indicating that "Stimlje was done by the MUP with PRAHA

18 AVs and one tank don't know how they were dealing with it." Based on

19 what you were able to observe of how the MUP operated, did they usually

20 have any tanks at their disposal when they carried out action?

21 A. Well, as I said earlier, it seemed to us that they regularly

22 enlisted the support of tanks. Now, we knew pretty well that the MUP had

23 no tanks within their inventory, so we certainly thought that the tanks

24 were provided by the VJ. But it seemed routine to us throughout my time

25 there that the VJ and MUP would work in coordination.

Page 5471

1 I believe, as I said in one of my statements, my assessment is

2 that they each had their chain of command, direct chain of command to

3 each other, parallel chain of command, I should say, the MUP and the VJ;

4 but they definitely coordinated regularly during actions.

5 And, of course, as a military man, this is just a regular and

6 routine procedure that you would never have two forces, friendly forces,

7 which are working on the same side operating in the same zone without

8 ensuring that you have good coordination to make sure that there are no

9 engagement of friendly forces, any friendly fire.

10 Q. Now, you had told us earlier that your observers had seen tank

11 firing into the village. When you went there on the 15th or on the 16th,

12 did you see any evidence that a tank had been deployed in the area?

13 A. There is one incident, of course, that I've spoken about on a

14 couple of occasions, and that is in my statement, where one of the

15 verifiers specifically had told me that he stood beside a tank that had

16 been firing into a house, that had been occupied by civilians, and when

17 that tank actually stopped firing, that they went into the house and

18 helped the people to come out. And I subsequently, on the 16th, went to

19 that hill where the tank had been reported and saw tank tracks on that

20 hill.

21 Q. Now, the minutes here record you asking "who coordinated tank

22 fire on civilian houses where no persons were firing back." Is this the

23 same incident that you are just speaking about that your observers were

24 able to see happening?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 5472

1 Q. Now, you raised with Colonel Petrovic at this meeting that this

2 had been an unauthorized move from barracks and the notes have an

3 exclamation point and the answer that is recorded here from

4 Colonel Petrovic is "we are authorised for the staffs, my commander will

5 see you in the evening." What did you understand based from this meeting

6 had been the VJ involvement in this action?

7 A. I certainly thought that in his view, in Petrovic's view, the

8 movement out of barracks and the firing and so on had been from what he

9 thought were normal tasks. I also understood that at this point that I

10 would have a chance to meet the commander on the Sunday evening, and I

11 don't know exactly what day of the week this was, but. So he certainly,

12 I think, felt that this was a -- that this was an authorised and normal

13 activity, where we felt that it was not. That it was unauthorized.

14 Q. Now, if we turn the page, we have --

15 MS. KRAVETZ: And this is page 84 in e-court of the English, and

16 page 100 of the B/C/S.

17 Q. The third line from the top, if you could just explain what is

18 written there. It starts with "If provoked with SA..."

19 A. Yes. This -- the point I was trying to make here that

20 proportional force should be used in any reaction to an incident, i.e.,

21 if you are provoked with small arms, then you would use small arms. SA

22 was my note writer's abbreviation for small arms. Trying to make the

23 fact that artillery use in this case was disproportionate use of force.

24 Q. You refer to, you say like Racak and Petrovo. Do you recall

25 exactly had happened at Petrovo, you have been explaining what occurred

Page 5473

1 in Racak but.

2 A. No, I don't, unfortunately.

3 Q. Okay. That's fine. I understand that that same day you also met

4 with representatives from the local MUP; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And the notes of these -- this meeting is -- are also attached

7 and they are attachment 13, that's MM13.

8 There are three copies of the notes of this meeting attached to

9 your statement. I understand that the operative one is the last one

10 which is the signed version; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct. What usually happened is my notetaker would

12 draft the notes and send them in to me, and usually with one draft I was

13 able to correct some of the issues and give it back to him and I would

14 sign them. In this case, I guess it means it took two drafts before I

15 agreed.

16 Q. Now, we see that this meeting took place again on the

17 16th of January, and it was held at the MUP headquarters in Urosevac.

18 And in attendance are Colonel Janicevic, chief of the secretariat, MUP.

19 Would this be the Secretariat of Urosevac?

20 A. Yes, I believe it was.

21 Q. And we also see that Mr. Gilbertson and an interpreter were

22 present at this meeting. And what was the aim of this meeting with

23 Colonel Janicevic?

24 A. The aim there was exactly the same one as with the VJ. It was to

25 find out exactly what had happened and what had provoked and what had

Page 5474

1 made them undertake this action in Racak. To find out who, in fact, was

2 in charge of the operation and who had, you know, the cooperation between

3 the MUP and the VJ.

4 Q. Now, the minutes record Mr. Janicevic saying that - and this is

5 towards the middle bottom part of the page - started action at 0330,

6 ended at 1530. And later, Mr. Gilbertson asked who ordered this to

7 happen, and there are a series of answers which are marked as evasive

8 answer here in the minutes. Based on your discussions with

9 Colonel Janicevic at the meetings, what impressions did you form as to

10 who had ordered this action to take place at Racak?

11 A. My sense was that he was trying to be quite evasive in terms of

12 who exactly was in charge. We asked him on several occasions. We were

13 trying to establish exactly who was the person in charge. And you know,

14 we wanted, as much as possible, to know what the facts were. But my

15 sense certainly was that he was -- he was the one in charge of these

16 policemen.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Now, if we turn the page this is page 104 in the

18 English in e-court, and page 117 in the B/C/S.

19 Q. Mr. Gilbertson is asking him how many police officers were

20 involved, and Mr. Janicevic says 100 men. Later towards the bottom of

21 the notes here you say you were in charge of 100 policemen, and he

22 responds, If it is your concern, yes. And Mr. Gilbertson asked, he says,

23 We just left the VJ, that put all the blame on you, were they with you or

24 not? And he responds, We were not with the VJ.

25 Was that your understanding of how the action had happened? That

Page 5475

1 Mr. Janicevic, was -- I mean, was your understanding consistent with what

2 Mr. Janicevic was saying that the MUP was involved in this action without

3 any participation from the region?

4 A. Well, I certainly thought that Mr. Janicevic was quite an erudite

5 gentleman and able to, I think, answer questions in a rather kind of

6 roundabout way. And certainly that's the reason why I wanted to ask him

7 if indeed he was in charge of the 100 hundred policemen and I think we

8 wore him down to finally tell us yes.

9 But in terms of the VJ, I think I could have taken his answer at

10 the time and you know, to the best of my recollection that his answer

11 could have been, you know, we were not with the VJ when we did the

12 assault, this does not mean perhaps that he would have had the VJ in

13 support of his -- of the action.

14 So you, you know, I mean, to me it left some, you know, some room

15 for interpretation here.

16 Q. What do you mean when you say it left some room for

17 interpretation?

18 A. Well, that perhaps the VJ were involved, but if they were my

19 assessment was that the VJ would have been in the perimeter position

20 around the -- around the -- the town of Racak, this would not necessarily

21 mean that the VJ would be in the town with the MUP, if you understand

22 what I mean.

23 Q. Mm-hmm. And was what Mr. Janicevic told you at this meeting

24 consistent with what your KVM observers had seen on the ground happen?

25 A. No, it was not. As I mentioned and as I assessed, I believe that

Page 5476

1 the VJ was indeed involved both from the point of view of support from

2 the perimeter and firing into the city, into the town, and you know, in

3 those deployments such as that artillery position. So they were indeed

4 involved in the operation.

5 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I see it's the end of the session. I

6 have more questions for you, General, but we will have to continue

7 tomorrow.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, General, because the courtroom is used by

9 another Chamber now. We must adjourn for the day and resume at 9.00 in

10 the morning. And will hope to have satisfactory progress tomorrow, even

11 final, even.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: We adjourn until --

14 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, just on that note, I would like to

15 point out that the witness has indicated that he needs to leave by Friday

16 morning, so I will make my best to make progress tomorrow, but I also

17 wanted to let Your Honours know that we do need to complete this witness

18 by early Friday morning at the latest.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

20 Mr. Djurdjic?

21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to greet you upon

22 adjournment. That's why I stood up.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Very gracious of you, Mr. Djurdjic.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE PARKER: We will be watching your time in the morning very

Page 5477

1 closely, Ms. Kravetz, because Mr. Djurdjic must have time to

2 cross-examine the general. So time will be given close attention.

3 The court officer will be giving exhibit numbers to all the

4 exhibits that were tendered earlier, including the ones you initially did

5 not seek to tender but which we understand are all being admitted by

6 consent.

7 MS. KRAVETZ: Fine, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, we resume tomorrow at 9.00.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of June,

11 2009, at 9.00 a.m.