Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5632

 1                           Monday, 8 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  We understand there is a matter

 6     to be raised by the Prosecution and a matter to be raised by the Defence.

 7     Are they the same matter?  It seems that they may be the same matter.

 8     This is the question of exhibits for the next witness.

 9             Do you want to have first go, Mr. Djurdjic?

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't like

11     starting our working week with an objection, but I have to.  I don't know

12     whether Mr. Stamp should go first in terms of introduction and then

13     respond to our objection.  In any case, it may not be relevant.  We

14     wanted to raise an issue which would be raised in any case eventually

15     during the day.

16             I'll start by drawing a broad picture which has to do with the

17     use of certain witnesses as expert witnesses in a broad sense of the

18     word.  By this I mean that these people were in certain positions at the

19     relevant time and then they are asked to offer their comments and

20     interpretations of certain things, which as fact witnesses they would not

21     be able to.  On the other hand, they frequently discuss matters that can

22     only be weighed by the Bench itself and used in the judgement.

23             What is interesting in terms of the next witness is that he was

24     retired between 1992 and 1999.  He was reinstated and in one part of the

25     relevant period for this indictment he was in active duty and was an

Page 5633

 1     eye-witness.  We know of the position that certain witnesses, due to

 2     their tasks at the time, can provide us with significant assistance.  I

 3     am against such witnesses being used as expert witnesses, though.

 4     Namely, Defence believes that one needs to prepare differently when one

 5     needs to hear an expert witness pursuant to Rule 94, I believe; and it is

 6     another matter when we hear fact witnesses be live or pursuant to 92 ter.

 7     When it comes to witnesses, Defence comes up with its own witness,

 8     analyses the documents commented upon by the witness of the other party.

 9     We know what their opinion is, we know what their finding is, and then we

10     argue facts.  And it is up to the Bench to see whether their witness

11     testimony is viable or not.

12             With fact witnesses used as expert witnesses, this becomes far

13     more difficult to do.

14             Now to go back to the issue of proposed exhibits and the

15     expansion of the 65 ter list.  Defence received from the Prosecution a

16     request to amend their 65 ter list which was on Friday, the 5th of June,

17     this year after 5.00 p.m., after office hours.  In that request, the

18     Prosecutor seeks to amend and add items to the 65 ter list by means of

19     nine new exhibits or documents.

20             On Sunday, the 7th of June of this year, at 6.00 p.m., the

21     Prosecutor contacted Defence with a filing which was a corrigendum or an

22     addendum to their filing of the 5th of June, stating that by mistake an

23     additional eight documents were omitted.  In both these filings the

24     Prosecutor seeks to expand its 65 ter list by these new 17 documents.

25     This fact alone, that is to say that we have quite a large number of

Page 5634

 1     documents, poses a problem for the Defence given the resources that we

 2     have.

 3             Another issue is that all of those 17 documents is something that

 4     the Prosecutor envisaged to use during this witness's testimony today.

 5     The reasons that the Prosecutor states for which they seek to add these

 6     documents are as follows.  One of them is omission, oversight.  These

 7     documents are of great importance for these proceedings.  Defence

 8     believes that this was no oversight on the part of the OTP or that these

 9     are not important documents for the following reasons.  Today's witness

10     has been on the 65 ter list of the OTP as of 1 September 2008.  As of

11     that time, there was an initial list of documents pursuant to 65 ter that

12     the Prosecutor had planned to use.  We believe that that 65 ter list,

13     which was forwarded at that stage, enabled both the Chamber and Defence

14     to prepare themselves given the scope, the volume, of the documents to be

15     studied and prepared.

16             After 1 September 1998 [sic] the Prosecutor submitted on the

17     14th of January a request that this witness be heard under Rule 92 ter;

18     having in mind this proposal, the Prosecutor at that time put forth some

19     exhibits and documents that were to be used during that witness's

20     testimony.  They stated the documents they intended to use.  In that

21     submission, we find none of the 17 documents they are seeking to

22     introduce now.

23             I would particularly like to point out that Defence is aware of

24     the technical problems that the OTP may run into, particularly since we

25     will face the same problems once our case begins and that none of the

Page 5635

 1     dead-lines are set in stone and that one needs to interpret those

 2     flexibly.

 3             However, we received the Prosecutor's report on the

 4     25th of May, 2009, stating that this witness will be heard this week.  He

 5     was the first person on the list for the week.  In the course of the past

 6     11 days, the Prosecutor did not notify Defence of their wish to expand

 7     the 65 ter list with the documents to be used -- put through to this

 8     witness.  They did so for the first time last Friday and then yesterday

 9     afternoon.

10             I would like to state that this witness testified twice before

11     this Tribunal in the Milosevic case and the Milutinovic case, and that we

12     find it strange that after such two cases they only discover relevant

13     documents now, some relevant documents that should be admitted through

14     this witness here today.

15             I would like to tell the Chamber that some, perhaps most of these

16     documents, were disclosed to Defence at the end of last week.  And some,

17     although disclosed earlier, were not marked as documents to be heard

18     during the testimony of this witness, it was pursuant to our request.

19     Several other Chambers from other proceedings ordered that these

20     documents be disclosed to us.  We believed that we might find some of

21     those documents useful during our case.  That disclosure was not done for

22     the sake of the Prosecutor, and in the 65 ter list of the OTP we now find

23     some of such documents as I have already stated.

24             In addition to the request to expand the list with the

25     17 documents, we simultaneously received a set of documents under

Page 5636

 1     Rule 66.  All those documents, if we put them together, have over 1.000

 2     pages.  Defence was physically unable to even leaf through those

 3     documents, so as to be able to prepare within this very short period.

 4             Your Honours, I believe that there are no justified reasons to

 5     accept this 65 ter list expansion with the 17 documents put forth by the

 6     Prosecutor.  Defence also wanted to tell you that in all likelihood those

 7     documents are relevant for this case, as all of the documents we have

 8     used so far were.  I don't think there was a single document that was

 9     irrelevant for the proceedings.  Still, one has to raise the issue of

10     criteria of admission in this case and whether some documents - although

11     I may be skipping ahead -- and if all documents can be introduced through

12     any which witness.  One such witness was shown a document signed by a

13     person whose signature he could recognise.  For example, I'm now quite

14     familiar with Mr. Stamp's signature by now.  Does that mean that I can

15     testify to the veracity of his signature and whether that document could

16     be admitted solely on that basis?  That is why I believe that this Bench,

17     in keeping with its earlier decisions, should try to regulate or channel

18     the principle used when admitting documents; and to reiterate our

19     request, we seek that the Prosecutor not be allowed to expand their

20     65 ter list with those 17 documents.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Stamp.

23             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             I think I should start by agreeing and accepting what my friend

25     said, that these documents are clearly relevant and probative to the

Page 5637

 1     issues before the Court.  I also concede, as in the -- as indicated in

 2     the filing, that these documents were missed by oversight.  I -- looking

 3     at the numbers, I see that it is likely that many or most of them were

 4     documents that were brought by various of the Defence teams in the

 5     Milutinovic case.

 6             And I also agree with counsel that when we are handing such a

 7     huge mass of material in cases of this nature that oversights will occur,

 8     and he did concede that he expected that when his time comes there will

 9     be such oversights with documents, although I'm not sure I would take the

10     same position as he normally takes when these things occur.

11             That being said, Your Honour, I wish to submit that the primary

12     consideration is whether or not the prejudice to the Defence is undue and

13     cannot be remedied.  The Prosecution sought to add these documents at

14     this time because this is a witness who can identify them, and the

15     Prosecution at this stage will not be asking the witness to discuss the

16     contents of these documents.

17             However, it is also mentioned that the countervailing issue is

18     whether or not a witness who is here who can comment on documents which

19     both parties accept and agree are relevant to the issues before the

20     Chamber, whether he should be allowed to comment on these documents or to

21     at least identify them or if we should just allow him to leave without

22     being given the opportunity.

23             I also seek to mention and I mention that this is an application

24     to just expand the list so that he could be shown these documents and

25     comment on it -- on them.  And depending on whether or not in the course

Page 5638

 1     of time when the witness is in The Hague - and we could ask him if he

 2     will remain here for a day or two more - the Defence could consider over

 3     that period of time whether or not these additional documents would

 4     prejudice them in terms of their preparation and if they would have

 5     additional questions for that witness.

 6             So although I -- there are many areas where I agree with counsel,

 7     especially as regards relevance and probative value of the documents and

 8     the fact that -- and this is not an excuse, it is just a reality that

 9     sometimes these things happen in respect to managing so many

10     documents - I think the Court should consider the balance of prejudice

11     and whether it is irremediable.  And I think we, the Prosecution, can

12     take steps to accommodate the Defence if they have problems reviewing

13     these 17 documents to give them an opportunity to do whatever

14     preparations they might want to address these documents with the witness

15     while he is in The Hague.  That is the primary reason why we sought to

16     add them to the list, Your Honours, it was a review of the documents

17     relate that he could legitimately comment on that caused us to believe

18     that it would benefit the Court if the witness, while here in The Hague,

19     exercised his opportunity to do so.

20             And those are my submissions, Your Honour.  I would respectfully

21     ask that he just be allowed to comment the issue as to whether or not

22     they be received in evidence, be reserved, and he will be in The Hague

23     for a few days.  Your Honours, the issue of prejudice probably will be

24     remedied in those days while he is here, and we could undertake to let

25     him remain for a little longer, if there are problems.

Page 5639

 1             May it please Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, before you sit, do I understand

 3     correctly that in most cases these 17 documents were tendered in evidence

 4     in the Milutinovic case?

 5             MR. STAMP:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  In all cases?

 7             MR. STAMP:  All of these 17 documents, Your Honours, yes.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Were they tendered in the Milosevic case?

 9             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honours, not all of them.  I am not sure if

10     any of them were.  I do believe that -- I know that not all of them were

11     but I'm not sure if any --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  In the Milutinovic case were they tendered by the

13     Prosecution or the Defence?

14             MR. STAMP:  Most of them were tendered by the Prosecution.  I can

15     see by the numbers, but I am not sure of some of them, of the last -- the

16     last six.  I could probably get verification of that.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  So they were Prosecution documents for the

18     purposes of the Milutinovic case?

19             MR. STAMP:  I believe the last six were.  I'm just looking at the

20     numbers and --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  The numbers may not provide an answer.  It depends

22     whether a document was merely put to a witness by the Defence but not

23     tendered, and it might then be tendered in re-examination, you see.

24             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, indeed, Your Honours.  So -- I -- the numbers

25     indicate to me that the majority were tendered and brought by the

Page 5640

 1     Defence; however, those that might be from the numbers, Prosecution

 2     documents, they might also have been brought by the Defence.  I could not

 3     be sure about that here and now.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  If they were Prosecution documents, the question

 5     of how an omission of this nature could occur becomes more pressing.  Are

 6     you able to assist us in any particular about that?

 7             MR. STAMP:  I do know that in reviews of the documents from the

 8     Milosevic [sic] case an effort was made - and there was a short period of

 9     time, but I'm not complaining about the time we had between that one case

10     to move on to this case - an effort was made to winnow out of the

11     material in the MOS case which was huge.  Some of the material that we

12     thought might not be of -- of great importance to the issues, the

13     separate issues in this case; and it is probable that in that exercise

14     which was done very quickly between the end of the MOS case and when we

15     had to file the 65 ters that these might have been removed.  These are

16     all military documents and that is a -- I think that is the probable

17     reason.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  When you say "MOS" case you mean --

19             MR. STAMP:  I'm sorry --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  -- Milutinovic and others.

21             MR. STAMP:  Milutinovic.  I'm so sorry for that.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic also mentioned being served at the

23     same time or about the same time with a total of over 1.000 pages of

24     documents.

25             MR. STAMP:  I am trying to make inquiries into that,

Page 5641

 1     Your Honours.  I do know that when we receive what are called -- when we

 2     receive searchs of the system of documents that relate to the witness,

 3     any material that the witness has testified before is disclosed

 4     immediately or as soon as possible to the Defence.  What I believe is the

 5     situation in this case is that his testimony in the Milosevic case, his

 6     testimony in the Milutinovic case, and all of his testimony related to

 7     the matters that are before this Court was disclosed to Defence a long

 8     time ago, from early in the case and probably again when the 65 ters were

 9     filed.

10             I am not sure what material the counsel for the Defence is

11     speaking of, but there might have been documents that came up on recent

12     searches that related to evidence that he might have given in other cases

13     or in Belgrade in other matters that came -- that we have received in our

14     evidence archives that came -- that have come up in searches and have

15     been disclosed to the Defence.  These would be disclosed as soon as the

16     searches reveal that we have them, but if -- I could only give precise

17     answers if I'm told what precisely those documents were that he speaks

18     of, but the practice is to disclose this material as soon as they come up

19     in the electronic searches of the archives.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, even in this case you seem to have had two

21     bites at the cherry; the original motion, and then on Sunday evening

22     another group of documents.  Is there a simple reason why that should

23     have occurred?

24             MR. STAMP:  That -- without going too much into administrative

25     issues, that was just a miscommunication on my part.  I probably should

Page 5642

 1     say as to what documents should be included, what documents we would want

 2     to show him -- show the witness.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             Do you have more, Mr. Djurdjic?

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Defence is open for cooperation.

 6     I think Mr. Stamp put a proposal acceptable to us, and I believe it will

 7     contribute to a more efficient proceedings.  There will be a need that we

 8     be given some time, given that this will obviously last a few days at

 9     least.  I see that the Prosecutor put five hours for this live testimony,

10     and that will probably increase, during which time we'll be able to study

11     those documents.  I've just received information that we haven't even

12     identified some eight documents that we received.  We would need precise

13     reference, and we will do our utmost to process these documents; however,

14     we stand by that part of our objection requesting that the Bench should

15     see to it that some documents be not introduced through this witness that

16     we believe should not be introduced through him.  This refers to his

17     expertise.  And it's a different issue whether such documents could be

18     admitted through this witness if he were used as an expert witness or if

19     this is merely a signature recognition witness, as I have just explained,

20     who says, Well, I simply passed by this or that building, and I know

21     where that was.

22             In any case, we will make an effort, along the proposal of

23     Mr. Stamp, to do this.  Perhaps we may require a little bit more time to

24     prepare, provided all these documents can be admitted through this

25     witness.

Page 5643

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We are thankful for the submissions of counsel.

 4     The Chamber takes the view at the moment that this very unfortunate

 5     chapter may be able to be dealt with without undue difficulty and

 6     without, certainly, undue prejudice to the Defence if as each of these 17

 7     documents are reached in the course of evidence of the witness, the issue

 8     of whether the witness is able to speak of personal knowledge or not is

 9     raised and able to be dealt with.  So that if there's a document which is

10     beyond the scope of what is properly the evidence of that person as a lay

11     witness, that matter can be dealt with that way.  Clearly we will need to

12     deal with each document separately to reach a decision on that subject.

13             With respect to the bulk of the submission, the question of

14     whether or not the documents can be admitted in evidence will depend upon

15     the degree of prejudice and whether it can be overcome with some moderate

16     delay to enable the Defence to give consideration to the document.  We

17     say that accepting, as counsel has, the clear likelihood of relevance and

18     of reliability of these documents.  And we there focus our attention on

19     the question of prejudice, and we do that against the background that no

20     real justification is offered which would enable us to adjust the scales

21     in favour of the Prosecution.

22             So we must look at this from the eyes of the Defence and look at

23     the question of prejudice accordingly.  But it does seem to us that it

24     could well prove to be the case that if documents are considered and

25     marked for identification, it will be possible in the course of the week

Page 5644

 1     for Mr. Djurdjic to be in a position to cross-examine in respect of those

 2     documents, even if it does mean that we move to the next witness, deal

 3     with the next witness, and then come back to finish the evidence of this

 4     witness, that could well give additional time.  We will see.

 5             So the position becomes this, Mr. Stamp, and I'm sure you will be

 6     thankful for Mr. Djurdjic, for his cooperative attitude, that you can

 7     proceed and present these documents to the witness.  They will not be

 8     admitted into evidence at this stage, though.  If they are used, they

 9     will be marked for identification.  And we will then, if necessary, delay

10     the cross-examination on those documents, perhaps by having another

11     witness called and dealt with before coming back to this, and we will see

12     whether by that process the prejudice that clearly is presently obtaining

13     can be overcome to enable the matter to be dealt with and the evidence to

14     be admitted.

15             Is that clear?

16             MR. STAMP:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             We are ready then for the witness.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation which

23     is shown to you now.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 5645

 1                           WITNESS:  ALEKSANDAR VASILJEVIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

 4             Mr. Stamp has some questions for you.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Stamp:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, General Vasiljevic.  Can we start by you telling

 8     us your full name and your date of birth.

 9        A.   My name is Aleksandar Vasiljevic, I was born on the

10     8th of July, 1938.  Place of birth Vitkovic, municipality of Kraljevo, in

11     Serbia.

12        Q.   I understand that you had a long career in the military.  Can you

13     give us an outline, a brief outline, of your career in the military of

14     Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia and Serbia from start to finish.

15        A.   After secondary school, I graduated from the military academy in

16     1961.  For three years I occupied command posts in units.  In 1964 I was

17     admitted into security organs of the Yugoslav People's Army; after that,

18     I graduated from a one-year security school.  And throughout all the time

19     until 1988, I occupied security positions from basic positions within a

20     battalion to the highest-level duties in the army and in the

21     Federal Secretariat for People's Defence.

22             In the meantime, I graduated from command staff academy in 1973,

23     and I graduated also the war college, as it was called then, or the

24     National Defence School in 1977.  And in 1986, I was seconded from the

25     Sarajevo army into the security administration in Belgrade as head of the

Page 5646

 1     counter-intelligence department.  After that, since I had met the

 2     conditions for promotion into the rank of general, the criteria being

 3     that I had to leave the security apparatus and occupy some other posts

 4     outside the security service, so within -- between 1988 to 1990 I was a

 5     division -- motorised division commander in Sarajevo, where I received my

 6     rank of general.

 7             After that, I was transferred back to the security

 8     administration.  I was assistant head or deputy head of the security

 9     administration in 1991.  In June, I became head of the security

10     administration of the JNA.  I held that post until the 8th of May, 1992,

11     when I was pensioned off among a large number of generals; 70 generals

12     were pensioned off in that wave, halving practically the body of generals

13     of the former JNA.

14             I was retired until the 27th of April, 1999, when I was

15     re-activated under the war conditions prevailing in Yugoslavia at the

16     time.  I was appointed deputy head of the security service of the VJ.

17     One year later, I was appointed security advisor to the

18     Chief of the General Staff, and I was pensioned off again towards the end

19     of 2000 -- and on the 31st of March, 2001, officially my duties ceased.

20        Q.   Thank you.  When you were pensioned off in 1992, what was your

21     rank?

22        A.   I was major-general at the time, and in 1999 I was promoted to

23     lieutenant-colonel-general.

24        Q.   And when you ended your service in the VJ in 2001, what was your

25     rank?

Page 5647

 1        A.   I was lieutenant-general at the time.

 2        Q.   Now, in the course of your career in the JNA and later on when it

 3     became the VJ, did you receive awards and decorations for your work?

 4        A.   Yes.  There is a number of decorations.  First of all, I have to

 5     explain that there was a practice whereby if you are successful in your

 6     post on average every five years one can receive a medal or a decoration.

 7     Out of those decorations that I received, there is one which is not your

 8     run-of-the-mill decoration.  In 1990, I was decorated with a decoration

 9     for courage.  I was also decorated after the end of the war in 1999.

10        Q.   You mentioned earlier that you spent your career in the security

11     administration of the JNA and later on the VJ -- I should rephrase that:

12     that you spent most of your career in the security administration of the

13     JNA and later on the VJ.

14             Could you explain to us what is the security administration or

15     what was it at that time?

16        A.   If I may be more precise, it would be more correct to state that

17     most of my military career I spent in security organs of the JNA at

18     different positions within units starting from battalions up to an army

19     and the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence.

20             Security administration is the umbrella and top organisation

21     which controls and commands security organs in subordinated units.  I

22     spent four years there, two terms of duty, from 1986 to 1988, and from

23     1990 to 1992.  Should I explain the remit and the tasks of organs of

24     security within the JNA?  I can do so.

25        Q.   That indeed was my next question.  What was the role and function

Page 5648

 1     of the security organs in the JNA and the VJ?

 2        A.   That is a two-fold service:  Counter-intelligence, first, and

 3     prevention, functions of the security organs.  The counter-intelligence

 4     activities are directed at detecting, monitoring, surveying, and

 5     prevention.  Intelligence activities, through agents, earlier extreme

 6     émigrés that used to work against the armed forces and Yugoslavia in

 7     general, and also persons working illegally and in an organised manner to

 8     destroy the constitutional order of the country.

 9             The constitutional order was defined through criminal offences in

10     chapter 20 of the penal code.  There is a catalogue of criminal offences

11     of such nature from stealth of weapons, disrupting defence capabilities,

12     organising illegal enemy groups, sabotages, et cetera.  This was part of

13     the counter-intelligence effort which was the basic activity of the

14     security organs.  90 per cent of working tasks in security organs were

15     focused on counter-intelligence, and this is the raison d'etre of such

16     security organs.

17             The other string of duties was preventive, which means supporting

18     command organs to organise preventive security measures, such as, setting

19     up a protection system for military installations, taking actions to

20     prevent theft of documents or weaponry, to organise security measures in

21     combat operations, general measures that are applied anywhere.  There is,

22     I believe, a sixth or seventh item which details security measures for

23     documents or weaponry of a security officer within a command is in charge

24     of detailing out such security measures pursuant to the commander's order

25     and to see to it that those measures are implemented.

Page 5649

 1        Q.   In seeking to achieve the tasks and assignments of the security

 2     organs, what would their sources of information be?

 3        A.   Counter-intelligence effort and collection of information on

 4     issues of subjects came from different sources.  One of the major sources

 5     was a live person living in a community or, in a context, in a position

 6     where it has been assessed that there was some enemy activity or that

 7     there is intelligence that actual enemy activities were going on.  We

 8     called such people collaborants of the security organs in our parlance,

 9     and the relationship with such sources was defined by law.  There were of

10     course mutual obligations in such a relationship.

11             The second source of such intelligence could relate to specific,

12     technical, or other methods applied by security organs, and -- which are

13     subject to special approvals pursuant to law.  In the JNA, the

14     lowest-ranking officer who could approve such measures or methods was

15     army commander.  So security officers, even the head of the security

16     administration, did not have the right to order secret surveillance,

17     wire-tapping, or methods which violate certain rights and entitlements,

18     but the constitution said that under certain circumstances such measures

19     could be applied.

20        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

22             MR. STAMP:

23        Q.   Was there a system in place - and I'm speaking primarily in 1999

24     but also generally - for the security organs to report up to security

25     administration, where you were assigned, the information that they

Page 5650

 1     received through their operations?

 2        A.   All security organs at all levels are duty-bound, when coming

 3     upon information and intelligence from within their purview, to report

 4     back on such -- along two lines:  The first basic reporting line was to

 5     relay such intelligence to the immediate superior security officer.  So

 6     if we're talking about a brigade security officer who may collect some

 7     intelligence or security service data, he would report to the corps

 8     security officer who would then assess the importance of such

 9     intelligence.  If he can deal with it at his level, then there is no

10     obligation to forward such intelligence upwards towards the army command.

11             Then selection is done at army level command and security

12     administration would receive -- select information of such importance

13     that merit that these be imparted to the Chief of the General Staff and

14     the head of the security administration, that this would be the vertical

15     reporting.  But there is also horizontal reporting.

16             If there is some piece of information which is not of

17     counter-intelligence interest - and I explained and described

18     counter-intelligence activities - but is of importance for the overall

19     security of the unit, then whoever comes upon it is duty-bound to inform

20     of such information to the superior officer because security organs in

21     the JNA were subordinated to their unit commanders in terms of discipline

22     and others.  In terms of subordination towards the superior security

23     officer, there they were subordinated only within their purview.

24             And the lowest level where counter-intelligence information could

25     be imparted to a commanding officer was the army commander.  All other

Page 5651

 1     information of general importance for military units were regularly given

 2     to commanders usually at collegium meetings that commanders convened, but

 3     also whoever had this information could seek a personal meeting with the

 4     commander to impart it.

 5        Q.   You said you were reinstated on the 25th of April, 1999, into the

 6     VJ.  May I just backtrack a little.  In your last answer you referred a

 7     couple times to the JNA.  Your answer, I take it, also applies to the

 8     situation that obtained within the VJ, as it later became; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Well, the system was more or less the same.  There was one

11     change, though.  Earlier, the approval for the application of special

12     measures for counter-intelligence activities or the so-called technical

13     measures or tactical measures applied by security organs used to be

14     approved at the lowest level by the -- an army commander.  After the JNA

15     ceased to exist and when VJ took over, the threshold of reporting on

16     counter-intelligence matter was elevated to the level of

17     Chief of the General Staff.  This was the only difference, but the

18     obligations in terms of reporting horizontally and vertically remained

19     the same, horizontally to the unit commander and vertically to the

20     superior security officer.

21        Q.   Can I take it that you are saying that the change is that after

22     the JNA ceased to exist, the so-called technical measures and tactical

23     measures could only be approved by the Chief of the General Staff in the

24     VJ?  Is that what you meant by your last answer?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5652

 1        Q.   Yes.  You said that you were reinstated in April,

 2     the 27th of April, 1999.  Can you briefly tell us the circumstances in

 3     which you were reinstated to the security administration of the VJ.

 4        A.   I was pensioned off on the 8th of May, 1999 --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  1992.  Interpreter's correction.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in some special circumstances.

 7     Those special circumstances were as follows.  Out of the 70 generals,

 8     only two generals did not meet a single requirement for pension.  The

 9     conditions were either being at least 57 years old or having 40 years of

10     work experience.  I and my deputy were the only two not to meet either of

11     these requirements.  We were pensioned off due to the general situation,

12     and it would take too much time for me to explain it all now.  We were

13     basically removed from the army.

14             In 1999, when the aggression on Yugoslavia began, quite a number

15     of the officers that had been pensioned off previously, both generals and

16     lower-ranking officers, put themselves at the disposal of the

17     General Staff of the army, should there be any need for their assistance

18     irrespective of their former rank.  Together with a group of security

19     officers, I put myself at the disposal of the armed forces.

20             On the 28th, I believe, of March an interviewer conversation took

21     place between myself and General Geza Farkas, who was head of security.

22     He mentioned that there was a possibility that I be assigned activities

23     coordinator between the Military Security Service and the

24     State Security Service of the Republic of Yugoslavia.  I accepted that

25     proposal; and after a whole month, I believe, around the 25th of April

Page 5653

 1     was when I was contacted for the first time after that.

 2             The Chief of General Staff, General Ojdanic, summoned me to his

 3     office, saying that in the security service they changed their mind about

 4     having a military officer around.  Therefore, I was going to be appointed

 5     security advisor of the Chief of General Staff.

 6             Prior to that, Mr. Milosevic, the Yugoslav president, wanted to

 7     see me.  On the 25th of April, I went to his office.  If you're

 8     interested in what it was we discussed I can tell you but perhaps there

 9     is no need.  He changed the decision and ordered that I become deputy

10     head of the security service of the VJ rather than a security advisor.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

12     be asked to move closer to the microphone and that all other microphones

13     be switched off during the time he's answering.  Thank you.

14             MR. STAMP:

15        Q.   You mentioned that General Geza Farkas was head of security.

16     Just tell us, he was head of which security?

17        A.   He was the head of the army security service of the VJ.  The

18     official title was head of security administration of the VJ.  In terms

19     of professional command, he was in charge of all security organs within

20     the armed forces.

21        Q.   When you were appointed his deputy by President Milosevic, did

22     General Farkas indicate to you what your tasks and assignments would be

23     in the security administration?

24        A.   There was no need for him to explain to me what the role of a

25     deputy head of security administration is --

Page 5654

 1        Q.   Very well.  Thanks.  Did he appoint you to any particular area of

 2     responsibility?

 3        A.   Basically, my activities as the deputy head of security

 4     administration was to be in charge of all counter-intelligence activities

 5     of the security administration.  In terms of establishment, the way the

 6     security system is set up, that function or that post is officially

 7     called deputy head of security administration who is also deputy --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- assistant for

10     counter-intelligence.  A person appointed to that position stands in for

11     the head of administration in his absence.  Therefore, there was no

12     need -- if there was a need for a collegium meeting, the deputy would

13     attend it.  However, basically he was the deputy in charge of

14     counter-intelligence.  He was in charge of all professional activities of

15     the security organs.

16             When I was reinstated, President Milosevic divided that unified

17     function between two people.  I was appointed deputy, and

18     Colonel Branko Gajic, who before the war was deputy and assistant for

19     counter-intelligence, was appointed to the other part of the post which

20     is assistant for counter-intelligence.  This effectively meant that the

21     two of us exercised the functions previously performed by one person.

22     Both myself and Mr. Gajic dealt primarily with counter-intelligence.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to just ask you to briefly describe to us

24     the structure of the VJ during war time, during the NATO intervention,

25     when a state of war was declared.  Who was the overall commander of the

Page 5655

 1     VJ during the war?

 2        A.   The supreme commander, as far as I know, according to the

 3     constitution, did not exist as such.  Previously when the JNA was in

 4     place, the supreme commander was a collective Presidency, the Presidency

 5     of the former SFRY, meaning to say that the eight members of the

 6     Presidency constituted the Supreme Command.  The president of the

 7     Presidency - and that function was something that people rotated in - had

 8     the executive function in commanding the army pursuant to the Presidency

 9     decisions.

10             In the latter period, during the VJ and the FRY times, the armed

11     forces were in charge basically of the Supreme Defence Council.  And the

12     person presiding over the council was also the president of the FRY.  His

13     was the executive function to convey orders to the armed forces pursuant

14     to the Supreme Defence Council decisions.

15             In addition to the president of the FRY, in the

16     Supreme Defence Council there were also presidents of Serbia and

17     Montenegro.  Another standing function on board was the chief of the

18     military cabinet who was in charge of all technical aspects.  When the

19     war broke out, the Montenegrin president, Momir -- his last name escapes

20     me, I think Djukanovic --

21        Q.   Djukanovic --

22        A.   -- he left the Presidency because of certain issues, and then

23     what was in place was a Rump Supreme Defence Council, meaning to say that

24     Mr. Milosevic was there alongside Mr. Milutinovic.  However, there were

25     other members who occasionally participated in peacetime in the work of

Page 5656

 1     the Supreme Defence Council.  Usually it was the Chief of the

 2     General Staff, the minister of defence, and other people who may be

 3     summoned depending on the agenda to be discussed --

 4        Q.   Very well --

 5        A.   -- it was President Milosevic who was in charge of that function

 6     that one may call supreme commander.  The General Staff of the VJ, under

 7     such circumstances as well as during the time of the Socialist Federal

 8     Republic of Yugoslavia, took on the role of the staff of the

 9     Supreme Command.  Perhaps this is a broader answer to your question, but

10     I foresaw perhaps a future question of yours.

11        Q.   Yes, but for the time being can we just focus on the situation as

12     it was during the period after the 24th of March, 1999, when a state of

13     war was declared.

14             You said the president then, Milosevic, would be the supreme

15     commander and he would have a staff.  Who were the members of the staff

16     that the president as supreme commander had?

17             MR. STAMP:  In the meantime, while the translation is going on,

18     can I ask that we bring up 06 -- sorry, 02601.

19        Q.   Yes, could you just describe the staff of the Supreme Command.

20        A.   The Supreme Command Staff was headed by the Chief of the

21     General Staff, General Ojdanic.  I will have to use my glasses, given my

22     eyesight and the number of years that have passed.  His deputy was --

23        Q.   Stop.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5657

 1             Your Honours, is this a witness's schematic or who drew it up

 2     since the witness is supposed to comment on it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can do it without it.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] It doesn't matter.  I just want to

 5     know.

 6             MR. STAMP:  This is a schematic that the witness can identify and

 7     speak to.  The purpose of this schematic is to set out in graphic form

 8     what --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it a schematic prepared by the Prosecution or

10     is it an official document --

11             MR. STAMP:  It's a schematic prepared by the Prosecution to show

12     the witness's evidence in a graphic way to represent the evidence --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  The evidence is clear.

14     Please continue.

15             MR. STAMP:

16        Q.   If you look at this document does this document indicate to you

17     that the military forces that -- and the chain of command in respect to

18     the military forces that were relevant in Kosovo in 1999?

19        A.   No, this is not a schematic of the Supreme Command Staff.  This

20     could be a schematic representing the organisation of the VJ.  Why do I

21     say this?  because the Supreme Command Staff comprises the Chief of the

22     General Staff with his assistants and heads of aspects and branches and

23     services.  I wanted to have my glasses on because it -- this would entail

24     referring to a number of people, but this would be a rough chart of the

25     way the VJ was organised.  At the Supreme Command Staff, its head was the

Page 5658

 1     Chief of the General Staff, General Ojdanic.  His deputy was

 2     General Marjanovic.  Assistants to the Chief of the General Staff for the

 3     air force was General Velickovic, who was killed during the war and

 4     replaced by another person; then assistant for the navy was

 5     Admiral Nonkovic.  And I can go through each and every one of them, but

 6     there is at least a dozen.

 7        Q.   I think maybe my last question wasn't clear.  I was asking if

 8     this was a schematic that indicates the forces that were -- the VJ forces

 9     that were relevant to Kosovo in 1999 and the chain of command.

10        A.   The Army of Yugoslavia had its 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Army.  The first

11     one was the Belgrade Army.  The 2nd Army was in Podgorica, in Montenegro.

12     However, some of its forces were in Sandzak and in Serbia itself.  The

13     3rd Army is the Nis Army, within whose area was the southern part of

14     Serbia and Kosovo.

15             The 3rd Army comprised two corps, the Nis Corps and the

16     Pristina Corps.  Some forces of the Nis Corps and some forces of the

17     2nd Army, of whose command was in Podgorica, were engaged in Kosovo

18     during the war by virtue of resubordination.  Some units which did not

19     organically belong to the 3rd Army were used to strengthen it by using

20     certain brigades or military territorial detachments.

21             The 3rd Army had two basic operational strategic units, these

22     being the Nis and Pristina Corps.  Among the more important organs, it

23     had two districts:  The Nis and Pristina Military District.  The corps

24     comprised a number of brigades, independent battalions, service

25     regiments, and so on and so forth.

Page 5659

 1        Q.   Thank you.  What was the area of responsibility of the

 2     Pristina Corps?

 3        A.   The Pristina Corps for the most part encompassed the area of

 4     Kosovo and Metohija.

 5        Q.   And also you mentioned the Pristina Military District.  What was

 6     their zone of responsibility?

 7        A.   The Pristina Military District also encompassed the area of

 8     Kosovo and Metohija; and in terms of the geographical distribution, it

 9     had branches in various municipalities such as Prizren, Djakovica, Pec,

10     Urosevac, and so on and so forth.

11        Q.   Who was the commander of the 3rd Army in 1999?

12        A.   It was General Nebojsa Pavkovic.

13        Q.   And the Pristina Corps?

14        A.   General Lazarevic.

15        Q.   That's General Vladimir Lazarevic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you know brief -- and if you could be brief in your answer,

18     whether or not the normal chain that you see here with the General Staff

19     headed by Colonel Ojdanic being between the supreme commander was always

20     respected by General Pavkovic?  In other words, do you know if

21     General Pavkovic normally or always respected the normal chain of command

22     going up?

23        A.   To the extent I am familiar with the situation, for the most part

24     he respected the chain of command.  I can explain why I say "for the most

25     part."

Page 5660

 1        Q.   Very well.  If you could be very brief, I'd be grateful.

 2        A.   Briefly then, in Pristina as of 1998, objectively speaking, there

 3     was an organ in place called the Joint Command.  That body was supposed

 4     to encompass the activities of the VJ and MUP in the area of

 5     Kosovo and Metohija.  Occasionally, certain activities that had to be

 6     ordered directly from the general -- Supreme Command Staff to the

 7     3rd Command and were to be implemented pursuant to the further decisions

 8     of the Joint Command, and then in turn the staff was supposed to be

 9     informed of the decisions made by the Joint Command.

10             I know of certain documents following which the

11     Chief of General Staff warned the 3rd Army commander that those planned

12     activities should not be implemented the way that was envisaged, but in

13     some other way.  However, he did not use the customary term which would

14     be "I order you to do so," but rather, I warn you that this or that

15     should be done in a different way.  This was rather unusual in terms of

16     military hierarchy.

17        Q.   Very well.  We'll get to that and to the Joint Command.  But

18     basically do you know if General Pavkovic always reported up through the

19     Supreme Command Staff or if he sometimes bypassed General Ojdanic and the

20     Chief and the Supreme Command Staff and went straight to Mr. Milutinovic,

21     the supreme commander -- Mr. Milosevic, I beg your pardon, the supreme

22     commander?

23        A.   These are two separate issues.  The first one, whether he

24     reported regularly to the Supreme Command Staff, yes, he did by virtue of

25     daily combat reports.  All units starting with brigades and up to the

Page 5661

 1     Supreme Command Staff were expected to report daily.  The daily reporting

 2     was always followed through.  The other issue is whether the 3rd Army

 3     commander without the knowledge of his immediate superior,

 4     General Ojdanic, communicated with the supreme commander -- well, that

 5     happened as well.

 6             It happened, and I was in a situation to see that myself.  He

 7     didn't notify his superior General Ojdanic of being in Belgrade and that

 8     he was to see the state president, for example.

 9        Q.   State president being President Milosevic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   02601, Your Honours, I would ask that it be received in evidence.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00883, Your Honours.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   When you took up your responsibilities in the latter part of

16     April, 1999, did you receive information from your subordinates and your

17     sources about events in Kosovo that were relevant to security and

18     criminal activity?

19        A.   I could give you a very extensive answer.  If you have in mind

20     when it was that I received information for the first time, then I can be

21     precise about that, and I suppose this is what you had in mind.

22        Q.   Please.  Please go ahead.

23        A.   I was reinstated on the 27th of April, and I went to office that

24     day.  On the 8th of May, a security officer from the organ of the

25     Pristina Corps came to the security administration.  It was the

Page 5662

 1     then-Lieutenant-Colonel Djurovic who was deputy of the chief of security

 2     for the Pristina Corps.  He was there for another reason concerning the

 3     case of a paramilitary unit which was absorbed by the VJ.  In addition to

 4     that problem that we tried to resolve, I inquired of him to tell me what

 5     was happening in the field.  He told me then that there were individual

 6     cases of crimes, rape, murders, and that there were other paramilitary

 7     formations in the territory in addition to the Jugoslav Petrusic group

 8     that we discussed.

 9        Q.   Sorry.  I'm going to ask you to continue with your answer, but I

10     just want to just get something clear.  When he was reporting to you, did

11     he report to you as part of his duty and report to you in your official

12     capacity, or was this informal?

13        A.   This was a subordinate/superior type of contact.  It could not

14     have been informal --

15        Q.   Thank you.

16        A.   He simply notified me of some events that they omitted to inform

17     us along the regular lines of reporting.  Because of what he told me

18     then --

19        Q.   Sorry, sorry, I don't think you finished telling us all that he

20     told you.  You were telling us that there were cases of crimes, of rape,

21     murder, and other paramilitary formation in the territory in addition to

22     Jugoslav Petrusic's group.

23             Could you tell us about the paramilitary formations and also

24     Jugoslav Petrusic's group?

25        A.   The Jugoslav Petrusic group numbered 25 persons who did not

Page 5663

 1     respect the standard procedure they would have to undergo to be accepted

 2     by the centre for volunteers in Brocna near Belgrade.  A colonel from the

 3     General Staff intervened instead issuing them with uniforms without

 4     registering them individually and sending them to another volunteer

 5     reception centre in Medja near Nis; and they were issued weapons there.

 6             They were then sent to the Pristina Corps and its 125th Brigade,

 7     from whence they were sent to the border at Kosare.  In terms of

 8     information the security service had, Jugoslav Petrusic was an agent of

 9     the French DST security service.  We were warned via President Milosevic

10     that we had a French agent amongst our ranks.  That's why the

11     Pristina Corps assistant for security was contacted to verify that.

12             In any case, a few days later they were withdrawn from the field,

13     disarmed, and arrested by the security organs of the VJ.  Those arrested

14     were Jugoslav Petrusic and his deputy Mr. Orasanin.  There was an

15     investigation which lasted for a month which resulted in an epilogue.

16     That was the one paramilitary group.  As for the other paramilitary

17     groups in the field for which there were indications that they had

18     committed crimes, he specifically mentioned the Skorpion unit.  They

19     arrived in Kosovo as part of the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit commanded by

20     Colonel Trajkovic.  In his words, upon their arrival in Podujevo they

21     went house to house killing, in his words, a dozen children and two

22     women.  The 12 persons were allegedly killed, and once he learned of

23     that, they were immediately expelled from Kosovo.  That was one event he

24     described.

25             Another event had to do with the information he had that in

Page 5664

 1     Kosovo Polje there were members of Arkan's guard.  That was the initial

 2     information we had regarding those events, and I put that down in my

 3     notebook, after which I ordered to him that they should send a written

 4     report to the security administration on that matter.

 5             MR. STAMP:  On that note, Your Honours, I'm wondering if it might

 6     be a convenient time.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at 4.15, Mr. Stamp.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Before I forget, General, you said that you had some knowledge of

13     General Pavkovic bypassing General Ojdanic.  Can you just tell us when in

14     terms of the approximate month and year, if you can remember?

15        A.   Mid-June 1999.  I had a contact with a person, but he testified

16     in private session, it's irrelevant who that person was, but I can name

17     him.  I sought from the head of security administration and the

18     Chief of General Staff the green light to meet that person, and after the

19     meeting with that person I reported back to General Ojdanic.  But the

20     state security division had reported that I had this contact with the

21     opposition member and General Ojdanic was summoned to discuss this

22     matter.  General Ojdanic and I had arrived earlier to this meeting with

23     Milosevic, and when we were 100 metres from the White Palace,

24     General Pavkovic emerged from the White Palace and went in the direction

25     of his car.  General Ojdanic told me, Can you see him?  He's coming to

Page 5665

 1     Belgrade without prior notifying me at all.

 2             When we attended this meeting with President Milosevic,

 3     General Ojdanic reacted and brought this matter to the president, and he

 4     said, President, please do not have my subordinates coming to your

 5     residence without prior clearance from me.  And President Milosevic said,

 6     No, well, he was on a private matter, unofficially.  And General Ojdanic

 7     told me that General Pavkovic was more frequently reporting immediately

 8     to Mr. Sainovic, who was in the Joint Command in Pristina, than him as

 9     Chief of the General Staff.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If we could return now to the information that was

11     reported to you by the security officer from the Pristina Corps in

12     Kosovo.  The crimes that we were talking about, the serious crimes, the

13     rapes, the looting, the murders; did he say who committed them or the

14     members or the organisations that the persons who committed them were

15     from?

16        A.   I don't know whether you mean the first meeting with

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Djurovic or my tour of Kosovo from the 1st to the

18     7th of June, 1999?

19        Q.   First meeting.

20        A.   What emerged there were the first information about the scope

21     that I already mentioned.  After the first information about the

22     so-called Skorpion group, which is not a usual term for unit in the

23     military and in MUP because they have their own establishment titles, and

24     after learning that Djurovic had learned that they came from Vojvodina,

25     those persons, I ordered our counter-intelligence group in Novi Sad who

Page 5666

 1     was working out on the ground to check who those persons were and report

 2     back everything that they had learned about them.  And four days later,

 3     in May, I received a report that it went for 120- to 150-strong group

 4     depending on the circumstances.

 5        Q.   Sorry.  Maybe you should slow down.  This now is very, very

 6     important so -- and I'm not sure of the interpretation -- if you are

 7     going too fast for the interpretation.

 8             You remember the date you received the report from your organs

 9     from Novi Sad, the date in May, do you recall that?

10        A.   On the 12th of May I received it.

11        Q.   What was the report -- what did the report say was the result of

12     your investigations of this Skorpion group?

13        A.   I'll try to slow down.  What was stated in the report was that

14     the group was headed by Slobodan Medic, also known as

15     Aca [as interpreted], and that the group he organised around himself

16     comprised of 120 to 150 people, that there were practically two groups

17     who went to Kosovo, one that was organised by Slobodan Medic, a.k.a.

18     Boca, at the initiative of Mrgud Milanovic who in 1991 had been appointed

19     there in Slavonia as minister of defence and that the other group was

20     organised and led by Dalibor Novakovic.

21             The report also said that in essence those persons had experience

22     in battle-fields in former Yugoslavia, that among them were persons who

23     had criminal records but no names were named there, and that they had

24     returned from Kosovo a couple of days earlier.  And since the check was

25     conducted between the 8th and the 12th of May, we could say that they had

Page 5667

 1     returned from Kosovo at the beginning of May and that they were preparing

 2     another group to depart for Kosovo and that that group was being

 3     organised by Sokolovacki Zivan but his nickname was Zivan Chetnik.  So

 4     this was the initial intelligence that we received identifying this

 5     person Medic, a.k.a. Boca, as the organiser of that group.  They had been

 6     engaged as security detail around oil wells in Slavonia after they had

 7     ceased their operations in Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Briefly, in maybe a sentence or two, did your operative report

 9     indicate what their reputation was in respect to what they had been up to

10     on the battle-fields in the former Yugoslavia?

11        A.   I don't know specifically what [Realtime transcript read in error

12     "that"] they had done there.  I know they appeared as an organised group

13     in the so-called Bihac operation.  Similarly, there were some MUP units,

14     JSO to be more precise, in that area.  The general classification was

15     that there were criminal types in their ranks, problematic people, which

16     was written in the dossiers of those people who had returned from

17     battle-field.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You had mentioned earlier that they went down there

19     as part of the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit commanded by Zivko Trajkovic.

20     Which organisation was that anti-terrorist unit a part of?

21        A.   SAJ as a special unit belonged to the public security division of

22     the MUP of Serbia.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned that they -- your security organ

24     from Pristina told you about Arkan's guards.  Did he tell you what they

25     were engaged in Kosovo and whether or not they were --

Page 5668

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic -- just a moment, please, if you

 2     would, General.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have an intervention, page 35,

 4     line 7 of the transcript.  It should read I do not know specifically what

 5     they did or what they had done.  What is required is the word "what" and

 6     not the word "that."

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 8             Please carry on, Mr. Stamp.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   I was asking you about the information on that first occasion you

11     received in respect to the conduct of Arkan's guards and whether they

12     were associated with any organisation or formation in Kosovo.

13        A.   What we received was general information when Djurovic said that

14     all those things had been going on in Kosovo and that there were also

15     paramilitary formations outside the classical organisation of the

16     military and the MUP.  He mentioned that in Kosovo Polje they registered

17     the presence of Arkan's guards there who were not part of any legal

18     structures per establishment.  But there was no details about what was

19     the number of them there.  We learned that subsequently.

20             Information was that there was a camp at Kosovo Polje housing

21     them.  On the 8th of May there was no broader information about that, but

22     of course on other occasions we received information on that, and I can

23     discuss those subsequently.

24        Q.   Yes.  Yes, we will, but I want to take it step by step.  Just

25     briefly, what type of reputation did Arkan's guards have in security

Page 5669

 1     circles, if I may put it that way?

 2        A.   I could tell you what their reputation was in military security

 3     circles; I cannot tell you about the overall security circles or

 4     community.  Arkan's armed units had been registered as early as the

 5     beginning of 1991, at the time when I worked in the security

 6     administration.  We received operative reports about that initial group

 7     containing -- comprising of 21 persons.  We did some security checks on

 8     who those persons were, what was the structure of the group; and out of

 9     the 21 members, they had collected convictions of 105 years of prison

10     sentences on average five years of prison sentence each, which means that

11     they had come from criminal background.

12             Later on, that unit was expanded.  If I were to go back to the

13     Vukovar and January 1992 when they were supposed to be disbanded and

14     expelled from the area of Srem and both eastern and western Srem, at that

15     time the order on their expulsion from the Vukovar area was transmitted

16     or relayed as an order by General Zivota Panic and it was relayed by

17     Colonel Petkovic.  What I mean to say, there were 150 of them at that

18     point in time and that a person from the state security division of MUP

19     of Serbia, Badza Stojkovic, said that there would be no problem regarding

20     that that they would enter a special unit formation of theirs.  Their

21     reputation was of crime, of different types of crime that they had

22     committed.

23             But let me cut a long story short.  May we -- may I add that they

24     wore rifles in Belgrade, in central Belgrade, as security detail of the

25     premises of the SSJ party and nobody objected.  At Arkan's funeral they

Page 5670

 1     also wore automatic rifles and nobody objected to that.  Most of them had

 2     MUP personal cards or identity passes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's stick to 1999.  When you say "most of them

 4     had MUP personal cards," did the personal cards relate to the state

 5     security section of the MUP or the public security section of the MUP?

 6        A.   I'm not clear as to the interpretation of the security detachment

 7     and security division.  No, they were more in line with the state

 8     security division of the MUP of Serbia.

 9        Q.   So I can take it then that these ID cards were issued by the

10     state security sector or division?

11        A.   I presume so.  I cannot tell you specifically because I never saw

12     them.  I know about the -- Arkan's official pass.

13        Q.   You mentioned that you were also told that there was a second

14     group from the Vojvodina area or the Novi Sad area that was sent to

15     Kosovo, that is the group of Dalibor Novakovic.  Can you comment on that?

16     Did you receive information on that first occasion whether or not this

17     group was in fact sent to Kosovo and were they integrated into any

18     formation there?

19        A.   No.  Initial information referred only to the Slobodan Medic

20     group and that that group had returned at the end of April/beginning of

21     May but also was informed that Dalibor Novakovic's group was being

22     prepared to leave.  And then there was a third group of Zivan Chetnik,

23     these were the persons who organised these groups.  One such group was

24     organised by Goran Hadzic as well.

25        Q.   Were these groups -- did you ultimately learn whether these

Page 5671

 1     groups were dispatched to Kosovo?

 2        A.   I don't know that.  I cannot state with any degree of

 3     reliability.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Now, the information you received from - I'm probably

 5     going to get the name wrong - from Mr. Djurdjicic [sic] or from your

 6     Pristina Corps operative should -- and I'm not referring to counsel,

 7     should that have been reported up through the chain of command to the

 8     General Staff where you were or to the security administration?

 9        A.   Yes, that should have been written down as information of the

10     Pristina Corps security organ, and it should have been sent to the

11     security department of the 3rd Army.  And then the security department of

12     the 3rd Army would decide whether to report on that briefly to the

13     security administration, but they did not forward this information,

14     neither to the Nis army security department - because I later on verified

15     that - and on that occasion I ordered Djurovic, when he relayed that oral

16     information, to prepare a written note and to corroborate it with other

17     details that we had no occasion to discuss at the time because he was in

18     Belgrade on another matter.  And that note was subsequently drafted.

19             But out of the information that we received then, which included

20     apart from the Jugoslav Petrusic group there were information -- there

21     was information about soldiers raping some young girls in Kosovo, and I

22     received names; and information that they had allegedly been prosecuted.

23     I wanted him to write it down and announce that we would be coming to

24     Kosovo to consider those matters.  If you allow me, what was the outcome

25     of all this?  We received initial information, more complete information,

Page 5672

 1     from the counter-intelligence group of Novi Sad on the 12th of May.  On

 2     the 13th of May, which was Security Services Day, on that occasion of

 3     that holiday, General Ojdanic, Chief of the General Staff, received a

 4     delegation of security circles.  General Geza attended as well as I did

 5     and Colonel Branko Gajic.  That's --

 6        Q.   That's General Geza Farkas?

 7        A.   Yes.  The then-Colonel Branko Gajic, who was promoted to general

 8     on the 16th of June, and I were there.  General Krga, Branko Krga, head

 9     of the intelligence department administration of the General Staff.

10     General Farkas informed General Ojdanic about -- what had been learned

11     about the goings-on in Kosovo.  This was the initial information to him.

12     He was surprised, and he reacted promptly in front of our eyes.  He

13     phoned President Milosevic and literally said, Mr. President, I learned

14     that all things -- all sorts of things are going on down there in Kosovo,

15     that there are paramilitary groups, that there are rapings, murder.  I

16     don't know what Milosevic replied.  After that conversation ended,

17     Ojdanic told us, The President orders you to prepare all sorts of reports

18     on such developments and to attend a meeting at the command post on the

19     17th of May, bringing those written reports.

20             After that, General Ojdanic called General Pavkovic and asked

21     him, Commander, what is going on down there?  I don't know what the reply

22     was.  And then General Ojdanic said, On the 16th of May report back to me

23     with all relevant information at a meeting here at the General Staff.

24     And on the 17th of May there will be a meeting at President Milosevic's.

25        Q.   Did that meeting of the 16th of May take place?

Page 5673

 1        A.   Yes.  It was attended again by General Geza,

 2     Colonel Branko Gajic, and I.

 3             By that time we had acquired more information because Djurovic

 4     from the Pristina Corps had sent a dispatch containing more details,

 5     particularly the presence of Arkan's units and that camp of theirs than

 6     individual details of crimes perpetrated individually by military

 7     personnel.  I recall a Captain Stekovic, if I'm not mistaken, who

 8     murdered a number of Albanians.

 9             We had received more information supplementing the initial

10     information we had received from the Pristina Corps, and General Pavkovic

11     also came up with his information.  On behalf of the security

12     administration, I briefed them on what we had learned.  Then

13     General Pavkovic briefed us exhaustively about the developments in

14     Kosovo, about the crimes committed by both members of the army and the

15     MUP.

16             When I spoke about the presence and the crimes in Podujevo and

17     when I mentioned Slobodan Medic, General Pavkovic said that he had

18     personally seen at Prolom Banja, Medic, with whom he had a brief contact.

19     Medic was wearing a NATO-style uniform and wore SAJ insignia, the Special

20     Anti-Terrorist Unit of Serbia.  And that later on he had learnt from a

21     general, I think General Djakovic, who had a lengthier discussion with

22     Boca, and who had related to him that they had arrived to Kosovo

23     following the orders of General Djordjevic of the MUP and that the MUP

24     would collect them and send them to those areas where the situation was

25     the worst out on the ground.  And then General Pavkovic said he had

Page 5674

 1     notified Vice-President Sainovic of those things but he offered no

 2     special reaction to that.

 3             So they did have information that they had been expelled from the

 4     ground and that that had been done by the deputy commander of the SAJ

 5     Dragan Stojanovic or somebody else - and there was a nickname, but I

 6     forgot that man's family name - saying that that officer had expelled

 7     them from there.

 8             Furthermore, General Pavkovic referred that on the occasion of

 9     the murders and the corpses they had found on the ground, he said that

10     they had suggested to General Lukic that they set up a Joint Commission

11     to determine who might have been responsible for those crimes judging by

12     the areas where those corpses were found, maybe the army or the MUP of

13     Serbia or some third party --

14        Q.   Firstly, General Lukic was the chief of the MUP staff for Kosovo

15     at the time?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Before we go into what he said about a Joint Commission, did he

18     say how many corpses they had found or were on the ground in Kosovo?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   Later on in General Ojdanic's briefing, he complained of a degree

22     of obstruction on the part of the MUP organs in Kosovo to try and deal

23     with those problems.  He stated that they were only sent a letter by the

24     MUP to the Pristina Corps in which they said that there were around 800

25     corpses for which the VJ was responsible in terms of committing crimes.

Page 5675

 1     However, Lukic did not accept the proposal to establish a

 2     Joint Commission.  Then General Pavkovic set up his own commission, and

 3     it was established that there were 271 corpses in the areas where the

 4     army was.  There were 326 corpses in the area where MUP units were

 5     active.  This gives us a total of 597 persons.  That was the data

 6     provided by General Pavkovic based on the results of the work of his

 7     commission.

 8             Some people were inquiring about what kind of corpses those were.

 9     We all arrived at the same conclusion.  These corpses were not victims of

10     crimes.  These people were killed in operations, either by NATO forces or

11     VJ forces.  But all of those corpses were not victims of crimes, but they

12     were killed as a consequence of operations.

13             General Pavkovic informed Mr. Sainovic accordingly, but we did

14     not receive any particular feedback.

15        Q.   Firstly, if you could just have a couple brief answers to clarify

16     one or two things.  Did General Pavkovic explain about the difference

17     between the 800 bodies that were reported found and the 597 bodies that

18     could be associated with territory that either the MUP or the VJ

19     controlled?

20        A.   The initial information that MUP had was that the 800 corpses --

21     that those deaths were caused by the army; however, the commission's

22     finding was that there were 597.  As I said, the breakdown was 271

23     corpses in the army area and 326 in the MUP area.  There were no 800

24     corpses, but 597.  Am I clear on that?

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did General Pavkovic mention whether or not these

Page 5676

 1     corpses or some of these corpses had been exhumed; and if so, where?

 2        A.   He did not discuss that.  It was my impression that this did not

 3     involve any exhumations, but rather that these corpses had simply not

 4     been buried by that time.  No sanitation and hygiene measures were

 5     undertaken.  I suppose preceding that it was --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it can be my assumption perhaps

 8     that some of these corpses were registered or reported as having been

 9     found, and therefore one would conclude that they had been buried, but it

10     is only my presumption.

11             MR. STAMP:

12        Q.   When you said we all arrived at the same conclusions, these

13     corpses were not the victims of crimes, these people were killed in

14     operations, either by NATO forces or VJ forces; could you elaborate on

15     that a little bit further?  Is that what General Pavkovic reported to

16     you?

17        A.   No.  I can provide a factual basis for that.  I was in Kosovo

18     with General Gajic between the 1st and 7th of June.  We visited 12

19     security organs in subordinate units.  At the end, at a meeting in

20     Pristina, we collated all the information the army had per crimes and

21     victims --

22        Q.   General, if I may have a moment.  Let's just focus for the time

23     being on the 16th of May meeting.  We are going to get to your tour of

24     Kosovo a little bit later on.  I just want to know if this is what -- if

25     General Pavkovic had told you about the causes of death of the people

Page 5677

 1     that were in the military areas at that 16th of May meeting.

 2        A.   No, not at that time.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Did you decide upon any procedure in respect

 4     to the meeting that you expected to have the next day with

 5     President Milosevic?

 6        A.   General Ojdanic said that all the matters that we discussed

 7     without skipping or avoiding anything should be passed on to

 8     President Milosevic.  The decision was made to the effect that I was to

 9     put the army case to him; however, I declined, given that

10     General Pavkovic had much more information than I did.  I only had some

11     initial information provided by my security organs.  I briefed the

12     meeting on the information we received through security organs, and

13     General Pavkovic spoke about the information he had gathered along his

14     chain of command.

15        Q.   You just said you briefed the meeting on information received

16     through your security organs.  Is that the meeting with the late

17     President Milosevic you are speaking of now?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Very well --

20        A.   It was the meeting on the 17th of May.

21        Q.   Where did this meeting take place?

22        A.   The meeting took place at the command post.

23        Q.   Who was present?

24        A.   From the army there was General Ojdanic, General Pavkovic,

25     General Geza Farkas, myself, and Colonel Gajic; the five of us from the

Page 5678

 1     General Staff.  The other attendees were President Milosevic,

 2     Vice-President Sainovic, and head of the state security sector

 3     Rade Markovic.  There was no one there of the generals or people from the

 4     public security sector.  Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic, minister of the

 5     interior, was not present either.

 6        Q.   Did -- did the absence of the minister of interior or any of the

 7     generals from the public security sector strike you as -- well, I

 8     withdraw that.  Let me ask you an open question.

 9             Did you form any conclusions as to the reasons for the absence of

10     the head of the public security sector or the minister in a meeting of

11     this nature?

12        A.   I didn't pay much heed.  It was a bit odd that no one was present

13     on that side, especially --

14        Q.   Very well --

15        A.   -- if you had General Pavkovic, commander of the 3rd Army there,

16     who was in the field in Kosovo.  It would have been natural to have there

17     at least General Lukic who, in a way, corresponded to him in rank.  In

18     any case, President Milosevic only briefly said that they were all busy

19     and that they were in no position to attend the meeting.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall whether or not you made notes of what

21     happened at that meeting?

22        A.   No.  No notes were taken in terms of official minutes.  People

23     noted things down individually if they thought it was necessary.  I

24     usually have the habit of noting things down in meetings.  Specifically

25     concerning that meeting to the extent of what I could note down, I did

Page 5679

 1     keep notes as well as the then-Colonel Branko Gajic.

 2        Q.   Thank you --

 3        A.   In my notebook, if I may, I did not make notes on the

 4     contributions of General Pavkovic or on my contribution because we had

 5     typed reports, papers, to present at that meeting.  Therefore, you cannot

 6     find any of my or Mr. Pavkovic's contributions in my notebook because I

 7     believe those contributions should be in written form, typed somewhere.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Could we bring up 65 ter number 02592.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Page 46,

12     line 20, a part of the witness's answer is missing whereby the witness

13     stated that those reports should be in the archives.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. STAMP:

16        Q.   Can you identify the document there before you?

17        A.   I recognise it.  It is a photocopy of a page in my notebook.

18        Q.   And that is dated --

19        A.   The 17th of May, 1999.

20        Q.   And that is the record of your meeting that you just described?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   At this meeting, did you give a report?

23        A.   To whom?

24        Q.   To the persons present at the meeting.  Did you brief them?

25        A.   No, not after the meeting.  As I said, I intervened during the

Page 5680

 1     meeting as well as General Pavkovic.

 2        Q.   Yes.  So the question is:  Did you brief them at the meeting as

 3     to what your security organs had discovered?

 4        A.   I did.

 5        Q.   And I think you also said Mr. -- or General Pavkovic also made a

 6     contribution.

 7        A.   Yes, he did.

 8        Q.   You have in your note here that General Pavkovic -- or that

 9     someone said - and tell us who said it - there is no problem with

10     Petronijevic's group.  Who said that?

11        A.   It was Pavkovic's comment.  Yes, it's a mistake, actually, it

12     should be Petrusic, Jugoslav Petrusic's group, because by that time he

13     had been arrested as well as Mr. Orasanin; that group had been disbanded,

14     disarmed, and withdrawn from Kosovo.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did the report that you gave and the report that

16     General Pavkovic gave generally repeated the same matters that you had

17     discussed the previous day, the 16th of May?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, after you gave these reports I have it here that Rade spoke.

20     Who is Rade?

21        A.   Rade was the head of the state security sector, Rade Markovic.

22        Q.   He said that the volunteers are a necessary evil.  What did he

23     mean by that?  What did you understand him to mean.

24        A.   Well, perhaps it would be better if I describe that part of the

25     meeting in order to give you a full context --

Page 5681

 1        Q.   Very well --

 2        A.   -- but I can answer your individual questions as well.  In any

 3     case, since I mentioned the presence of Arkan's Tigers in Kosovo Polje in

 4     my report, on that topic he said that it was correct that Arkan had

 5     contacted him offering about a hundred of his men.  He only accepted

 6     around 30, provided they wore uniforms.  He also said that he had learned

 7     the day before, the 16th, that some people, some among them, killed a

 8     married couple in Kosovo and that an investigation had been ordered and

 9     proceedings initiated.  I think he said that they would be returned.

10             Because of the hundred that was offered and since Medic's group

11     was mentioned, he said, They are a necessary evil and one cannot win the

12     war with 100 people, 100 men.  Since in my intervention I refer to

13     Medic Slobodan's group, Rade Markovic said he spoke with

14     General Djordjevic, who told him that they had been withdrawn from Kosovo

15     to Prolom Banja.

16        Q.   And you noted in respect to SM.  Who is SM?  Could you just tell

17     us that?

18        A.   SM is Slobodan Milosevic.

19        Q.   Mr. Milosevic said, Sit down with Vlajko and Rodja and clear it

20     up with them.  Their heads won't be chopped off, but Boca must answer.

21     Who is Vlajko is who is Rodja?

22        A.   This intervention by President Milosevic represents his comment

23     on what Rade Markovic had said in terms that he had spoken with

24     General Djordjevic about Boca Medic and that he informed them that they

25     had been withdrawn from Kosovo.  He was actually turning to Rade Markovic

Page 5682

 1     and telling him, Convey to Vlajko and Rodja, Vlajko was the MUP minister,

 2     Vlajko Stojiljkovic; and Rodja is General Djordjevic.

 3        Q.   And later on you have a comment here from Sainovic.  Do you know

 4     what Sainovic's role was or could you just tell us now what Sainovic's

 5     role was in relation to the forces, the MUP forces and VJ forces, that

 6     were operational in Kosovo?  And if you could tell us briefly, I'd be

 7     grateful.

 8        A.   I know that he spent some time in Kosovo.  On the 1st of June, I

 9     attended a meeting of what was called the Joint Command.  He was probably

10     called to that meeting because he was responsible for overall activities

11     down in Kosovo.  That was his role.  He offered a short comment saying

12     that, Obviously with the SAJ they have certain habits on how to gather

13     reserves or reserve forces.

14        Q.   And Mr. Milosevic said, I support the work of the RDB and the

15     security organs to have all cases of big Serbs resolved.

16             What did you mean -- what is the meaning of this note?

17        A.   The meaning has to do with the way the reserve forces of the MUP

18     were being assembled.  There were many of them representing themselves as

19     big Serbs who, in his words, caused damage and that they tarnish the

20     positive image of what was achieved in Kosovo.  He meant it that way.  He

21     was referring to the way the MUP reserve force was being gathered,

22     cherry-picking people such as Boca, Arkan's men, et cetera.

23             I think he insisted greatly on the importance of dealing with

24     Vlajko and Rodja in the sense that they have no reason whatsoever to

25     protect such people.  And having in mind Rodja and Vlajko, he said, Their

Page 5683

 1     heads would not fly because of that, their heads would not roll.  That

 2     was the sense of his comment.  He also wanted to sort of calm tensions

 3     down in terms of the reserve forces.  There was mention made of people

 4     paying 500 or 1.000 German marks to get a uniform to be able to go to

 5     Kosovo in order to loot freely, but he said that at the time he had no

 6     knowledge of any presence of Arkan's men in Kosovo Polje or any camps of

 7     theirs.

 8             I can describe further the course of the meeting if you wish.

 9        Q.   Yes, but may I just check something before you --

10     President Milosevic also said neither Vlajko nor Obrad nor Rodja have

11     reason to protect them.  Who is Obrad?

12        A.   MUP General Obrad Stevanovic who I encountered during my trip to

13     Kosovo at the meeting of the Joint Command.

14        Q.   What was his function in the MUP, do you know?

15        A.   What I know is in terms of rank.  He was the third-ranking man in

16     MUP there.  I think his function was assistant minister of internal

17     affairs for special units of police.

18        Q.   Who were the two people senior to him ?

19        A.   Well, I cannot specify whether he was subordinated to assistant

20     minister of internal affairs for the public security sector,

21     General Djordjevic, or there were parallel assistants to the minister of

22     the interior.  I'm not familiar specifically with the chain of command.

23     But from communications we all knew that they were heads of the public

24     security sector of the MUP.

25        Q.   Okay.  And the third person mentioned in this note, the

Page 5684

 1     translation has it as Radja, who is that person that Mr. Milosevic is

 2     referring to?

 3        A.   No, Rada should read -- maybe it should spell out Rade,

 4     Rade Markovic.  It could be my long hand which could be illegible -- no,

 5     no, no, this is Rodja -- no, neither Obrad nor Rodja.  Obrad Stankovic

 6     [as interpreted] and Rodja is General Djordjevic --

 7        Q.   Obrad Stevanovic?

 8        A.   Obrad Stevanovic and Rodja is General Djordjevic.  So it's not

 9     Rada or Rade.

10        Q.   Thank you.  What at that time did you understand to be

11     President Milosevic's role in respect to the MUP, his de facto role I'm

12     asking you about.

13        A.   You know what, President Milosevic was president of the

14     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Hierarchically speaking, Ministry of

15     Interior is an integral part of the Serbian government.  At that time

16     there was no federal Ministry of the Interior, practically it did not

17     function because of the state of affairs in Montenegro.  So the minister

18     of the interior was supposed to be linked directly to the president of

19     the government or the prime minister.  But since President Milosevic was

20     president of Yugoslavia and through the force of his authority, he had

21     direct links with the minister of the interior.

22             And within the Ministry of the Interior, there are two key

23     divisions:  Public security division and state security division.

24     Rade Markovic headed the state security division, and practically he was

25     supposed to be subordinated to Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic.  But in

Page 5685

 1     practice, ever since 1998 when head of the state security division was

 2     Jovica Stanovic [as interpreted] after Stojiljkovic became minister of

 3     the interior who wanted briefs from the state security division's head,

 4     Jovica Stanovic [as interpreted] did not want to accept that.  He reacted

 5     very sharply, and he addressed President Milosevic about that matter,

 6     seeking that he remain in direct contact with him although he was then

 7     president of Yugoslavia otherwise he would resign from his position as

 8     state security division head.  I know this on the basis of my

 9     conversations with State Security Service who were top brass of that

10     department.  And from then on --

11        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  I think you are coming to the conclusion.

12        A.   From then on, the state security division practically was

13     directly subordinated and managed and controlled and ordered by

14     Slobodan Milosevic and Rade Markovic was there on that basis.

15        Q.   In this -- in your note you record President Milosevic as saying

16     that Vlajko, the minister, and I think you said earlier that the minister

17     of interior was supposed to be linked directly to the president of the

18     government or the prime minister, by that you mean that the minister of

19     interior was supposed to be linked to the president or prime minister of

20     the Republic of Serbia?

21        A.   Yes, I said that this was regulated by regulations, by laws.  So

22     you know -- should I go further --

23        Q.   No, no --

24        A.   Well, he could more be linked to the president of Serbia in some

25     circumstances.

Page 5686

 1        Q.   However, we have the president of Yugoslavia, Mr. Milosevic, at

 2     this meeting saying, Neither Vlajko's nor Rodja's heads would be chopped

 3     off.  Later on, Neither Vlajko nor Obrad nor Rodja have reason to protect

 4     them.  What was President Milosevic's relationship, influence, or

 5     authority de facto in respect to the MUP and the public security sector

 6     of the MUP in 1999?

 7        A.   I already stated that practically those persons were under the

 8     direct jurisdiction of the president of Yugoslavia, namely,

 9     President Milosevic, Slobodan Milosevic.  As you can see,

10     President of Serbia, Mr. Milutinovic, did not attend.  Nominally he would

11     have been supposed to have a more direct link of the minister of interior

12     than the president of Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   The remainder of your notes, and I'm afraid we will not have time

14     to go through all of it, but --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please bear in mind the

16     interpreters.

17             MR. STAMP:  Maybe I'm going too fast.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  It's the background noise, counsel.

19             MR. STAMP:  I'm sorry.  My apologies.

20        Q.   You have had an opportunity, I understand, to review the

21     remainder of your notes.  Are they accurate as to what you recall to have

22     transpired in that meeting?

23        A.   I did not read this note.  I have only the first page shown to

24     me, but I have no reason to believe that other pages are false.  I can

25     verify them for your purposes if you want to.

Page 5687

 1        Q.   Could you flip to the next page and then the next, please.

 2        A.   Yes, we should turn the page.  Now it's okay.  Yes, you don't

 3     have to zoom in.  I can see.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Yes, there are your notes of the meeting.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I tender 02592 and ask that it be

 7     received.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00884.

11             MR. STAMP:

12        Q.   You see later on in the meeting somebody that you refer to as

13     Saja spoke.  Who is that?

14        A.   That was Mr. Sainovic.

15             MR. STAMP:  And in English could we go back to the first page.

16        Q.   And he said - and this is at the bottom of the first page:

17             "...  and there's the task of working on clearing up the

18     terrain."

19             What at that time did you understand that expression, "clearing

20     up of the terrain," to mean?

21        A.   Clearing up of the terrain is the professional term which implies

22     that after combat operations what has to be conducted are smaller-scale

23     operations to neutralise or destroyed residual enemy groups or another

24     term that may be used in military circles, the pockets of resistance.

25     Clearing up of the terrain in such documents should not be taken to mean

Page 5688

 1     sanitation of the battle-field.  These are two separate operations.

 2     Clearing up of the terrain is a common term shared by both the military

 3     and the MUP implying dealing with residual or remaining enemy groups or

 4     forces.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  About this meeting that you had on the 17th, when you

 6     noted what General -- sorry, President Milosevic said in respect to

 7     Vlajko, Obrad, and Rodja, did they -- did what Mr. Milosevic said

 8     indicate to you what role or authority these three persons had in respect

 9     to the MUP forces in Kosovo?

10        A.   Well, yes.  It was -- what was discussed there was the situation

11     in Kosovo, not other security issues in the territory of Serbia and

12     Yugoslavia.  He addresses Rade Markovic to relay this message to those

13     persons who bear the highest responsibility for the use of MUP forces

14     there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  After this meeting, did you receive any tasks from

16     General Ojdanic?

17        A.   I feel the duty to expound my answer a bit.  During the meeting,

18     both General Pavkovic and General Ojdanic and Mr. Sainovic also

19     concurred.  They raised the issue that a special state commission should

20     be dispatched to Kosovo to look into what was going on there.  However,

21     Mr. Milosevic did not offer any comment, and he bypassed this issue all

22     together.  What he offered in return was that obviously there were bad

23     relations between the Military Security Service and MUP organs, probably

24     on the basis of an earlier information coming from General Pavkovic that

25     he had not encountered General Lukic's understanding on the establishment

Page 5689

 1     of a Joint Commission.  He issued a task -- well, the only task issued

 2     then was for the relations to be cleared and that poor relations between

 3     those two services may be tantamount to sabotage, and that for that

 4     reason General Ojdanic had to convene a joint meeting with MUP organs at

 5     which those misunderstandings had to be cleared.  This was the task that

 6     he issued.

 7             After that meeting, immediately after it, General Ojdanic ordered

 8     me and General -- Colonel Branko Gajic in the light of what had been said

 9     in the meeting to go to Kosovo as soon as possible, to contact our

10     subordinate security organs, and to collect information on everything

11     that was going on there, but also to perform a classical inspection tour

12     of security organs in the light of their counter-intelligence activities.

13     This was the tasks -- task we were issued by General Ojdanic, the two of

14     us.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Incidentally before we move on to the task, at the

16     end of the meeting did you military officers leave the office and could

17     you tell us if anybody remained?

18        A.   Well, we rose after the meeting was over, we discussed the

19     summary for people to leave the meeting.  Rade Markovic also stood up,

20     head of the state security sector, but President Milosevic told him,

21     Rade, you should stay behind.  So he stayed behind together with

22     Mr. Sainovic in President Milosevic's presence.  We had an impression

23     that a conversation is going to take place or to be continued which would

24     not welcome our presence.  And we commented so and we stated so after

25     emerging from the conference room.

Page 5690

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You said General Ojdanic issued a task or gave a task

 2     to convene a joint might with the MUP organs in order to clear

 3     misunderstandings.  Was this meeting -- were efforts made to convene this

 4     meeting?

 5        A.   Yes.  General Geza was tasked with convening the meeting with

 6     Rade Markovic; but in spite of repeated efforts to get in contact with

 7     him, the latter was always absent or otherwise engaged.  So until July,

 8     the beginning of July, that meeting did not take place and Chief of

 9     the General Staff, General Ojdanic, had to insist for that meeting to

10     take place.  That meeting took place on the 9th of July, 1999, at the

11     premises of the General Staff.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And we will get to that meeting later on.  You

13     indicated that you were also tasked the conduct or control of -- or an

14     inspection tour of the security organs in Kosovo and also to make

15     inquiries as to what was happening down there.  Did you go to Kosovo?

16        A.   Yes, we did.  We departed immediately after that meeting,

17     General Gajic and I; but in the meantime, a serious incident with the

18     7th Brigade from Krusevac had occurred.  That brigade used to be in

19     Kosovo.  Almost half of the brigade's ranks left their positions with

20     weapons and materiel and returned to Krusevac.  Because of this major

21     incident, the two of us were tasked together with the head of security of

22     the 3rd Army, Colonel Antic, to identify the ringleaders of this mutiny

23     and to secure through the organs of the authorities in Krusevac the

24     return of the army personnel and the weapons and materiel back to Kosovo.

25     And only after we've dealt with the Krusevac situation we could depart

Page 5691

 1     for Kosovo on the 1st of July.  I reached Kosovo together with

 2     General Gajic and Colonel --

 3        Q.   What was the date?

 4        A.   The 1st of June, 1999.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   So together with Colonel Antic, head of security of the 3rd Army,

 7     we reached Pristina.

 8        Q.   Now, on the 1st of June in Pristina, did you conduct any work

 9     there in respect to your tasks or the tasks that you had been assigned?

10        A.   Yes.  The evening of the 1st of June we were briefed on the

11     situation by the head of the security service of the Pristina Corps,

12     Colonel Momir Stojanovic.  However, military regulations order us, and

13     it's a matter of ethics, is that whenever somebody comes to a command

14     post, the commander should be informed of that.  Colonel Stojanovic

15     phoned General Pavkovic, telling him that I had arrived to Pristina.  He

16     expressed a wish for us to meet.  He invited Stojanovic and me to come

17     over to the command of the Pristina Corps where we could find him.

18             At the time he did not indicate that that evening's meeting was

19     going to be a Joint Command meeting.  He just invited us over.  The two

20     of us went to the Pristina Corps command, to that building, and after

21     greetings General Pavkovic told me, Well, stay here.  We will have a

22     meeting of the Joint Command.  Why don't you attend it and after that we

23     will have dinner.

24             Soon afterwards persons started arriving, persons who were

25     supposed to attend the meeting.

Page 5692

 1             First of all I have to say that my impression was that it was

 2     something as an operations centre.  There were maps on the walls, there

 3     were officers doing their tasks, and there was a separate conference

 4     table seating --

 5        Q.   What kind of operations centre?

 6        A.   I think it was the command post of the Pristina Corps, and that

 7     this room was operations centre to communicate with subordinate units and

 8     maintain maps of the present situation in the field.

 9        Q.   When you arrived there with Colonel Stojanovic, who was present

10     in the room?

11        A.   I already stated that there was a number of officers, some of

12     whom I knew and some of whom I saw for the first time.  But of the key

13     personnel, General Pavkovic was there, General Lazarevic as well, and the

14     two of them attended the meeting.  So of the military personnel, on the

15     one hand you had Pavkovic, Lazarevic, and I sitting next to him, and then

16     Colonel Momir Stojanovic.  At the other end of the table were MUP

17     generals, General Djordjevic, General Stevanovic, and General Lukic.  A

18     couple of minutes later, after we'd gathered there,

19     Vice-President Sainovic arrived with some person from Kosovo whose family

20     name I will remember for sure.  We sat down and the meeting was opened by

21     a brief on the current state of play that day --

22        Q.   Could you stop a minute.

23             MR. STAMP:  I wonder if we could go into private session just for

24     one moment, Your Honour, just to ask the name of someone.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Then we will need to have the break, Mr. Stamp.

Page 5693

 1             MR. STAMP:  Oh, yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

22             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   We were at the meeting of the 1st of June, the Joint Command

24     meeting.  When Mr. Sainovic and the other person arrived, how were they

25     treated by the MUP and VJ generals gathered there?

Page 5694

 1        A.   Mr. Sainovic was accompanied by Mr. Andjelkovic.  We all rose.

 2     When Sainovic sat down, we sat down as well.  Mr. Andjelkovic sat on the

 3     side with the MUP generals, whereas Pavkovic was facing him from the side

 4     where the army representatives were.  General Djordjevic briefly said

 5     that a MUP general was missing, I can't tell you what his name is,

 6     because he was busy in the field.  I was a bit taken by surprise by that

 7     meeting.  I did not take down detailed notes of who was present and who

 8     was not.

 9        Q.   Can we move into private session.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

25             MR. STAMP:

Page 5695

 1        Q.   The other person that attended or the person who attended with

 2     Mr. Sainovic, you said Mr. Andjelkovic, that's Zoran Andjelkovic; am I

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What was his position at that time in respect to Kosovo?

 6        A.   I don't really know precisely what his position was, whether he

 7     was president of the Kosovo Executive Council or something else.  In any

 8     case, he was one of the top politicians in Kosovo.  I don't know what the

 9     exact name or title of his position would be.

10        Q.   Did you know General Djordjevic personally before that day, the

11     1st of June?

12        A.   I know -- I knew from the media who General Djordjevic was;

13     however, this was the first time I met him.  I think we met on one other

14     occasion at the meeting in the General Staff on the 9th of July.  In any

15     case, I had seen him on television; therefore, it was easy for me to

16     recognise him.

17        Q.   At the meeting on the 1st of June was he introduced?

18        A.   No, there were no introductions made.  I knew General Lukic from

19     before that; I greeted him before the session, and spoke to him briefly.

20     I did not speak to the other generals there.

21        Q.   Can you summarise for us what happened and what was said and by

22     whom after the meeting began, that is, after Mr. Sainovic and

23     Mr. Andjelkovic arrived?

24             MR. STAMP:  And while you're proceeding to do that, could I ask

25     the Registrar if we could bring up ERN -- not ERN, 65 ter number 02862.

Page 5696

 1     Could we move to page 2 in the B/C/S copy.

 2        Q.   What you see there is a cover of your work notebook?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is the photocopy of a cover -- of the cover page of my

 4     work notebook.  We can see on the screen now the note pertaining to the

 5     1st of June, 1999.  In it I noted down briefly what was discussed at the

 6     Joint Command meeting.  Perhaps I can continue what I tried -- what I

 7     started explaining at the outset.

 8             I said I was taken by surprise by that meeting.  It was my custom

 9     to take notes of the meetings I participated in.  I marginally wrote

10     things down as to who said what at the meeting, and I did not include a

11     list of attendees.  I was not keeping minutes.  I was not even an

12     official at that meeting.  In any case, I did take some very brief notes.

13     I don't need to refer to this page.  I can tell you some things from my

14     memory.  The first was General Lukic, after whom we had General Lazarevic

15     speak.  Then there was a quick interjection by Deputy President Sainovic,

16     then we had Lazarevic and Pavkovic.  It was my opinion that it was a

17     daily reporting session or meeting of the past 24 hours.  No broad issues

18     were discussed.  They only discussed what took place the day before and

19     what was being planned for the next day.

20             From what I recall, General Lukic briefly spoke about having

21     information that in the area of Trpeza and Drenica there was a larger

22     group of Albanian terrorists and that because of that they were preparing

23     an operation that was to clear that area and deal with that group.  For

24     that purpose, they envisaged some 300 policemen to be used.

25             Then he said that in the course of the previous day there were

Page 5697

 1     some activities dealing with a larger group of terrorists in the area of

 2     Jablanica and that their front -- their first defence line was broken

 3     through, causing casualties on their side.  I believe he mentioned some

 4     15 terrorists being killed, whereas only one policeman was wounded.

 5             After that we had General Lazarevic speak who referred to the

 6     situation in his area of responsibility.  He may have gone outside of

 7     that topic on occasion.  What was interesting for me was that some

 8     equipment or cargo was parachuted during the night.  It probably was some

 9     sort of assistance for the terrorists, and he also mentioned an illegal

10     radio station being in operation.  Then he discussed the situation along

11     the border with Albania and the well-known problems of extensive

12     operations and many losses in the area of Kosare.  During the day, seven

13     soldiers were killed there and some 300 different types of projectiles

14     were fired including rockets.  He said that it was twice as many as the

15     average of the days before that, which was around 160 rockets if I recall

16     correctly.

17             He also said that the losses were great.  I knew of that from the

18     reports of my security organs I had received since there was an

19     MP battalion there in which at least 50 soldiers and officers were either

20     killed or wounded.

21             Then we have General Pavkovic, who expressed his dissatisfaction

22     with the fact that certain positions and areas were not held on to.  He

23     believed that they were easily abandoned, and he even said that measures

24     should be taken against the people responsible for that.  He also stated

25     that they had information that in Albania and Macedonia there were

Page 5698

 1     groups, larger groups, assembling which could mean that the beginning of

 2     a land operation could be expected from those areas.  He also said that

 3     they noticed some 2.000 people in Albania along the border and the front

 4     line were active in one particular area which was about 6 kilometres.  He

 5     also said or reiterated that every foot of land or building should be

 6     held onto and that -- and that operations should be intensified so as to

 7     avoid any surprises in the future. Mr. Sainovic agreed that the issues of

 8     Jablanica and Trpeza have to be dealt with in the next three or four

 9     days.  That's what I recall, and I took some brief notes of that.

10        Q.   Two things, your notes in respect to Mr. Sainovic's contribution

11     is that Mr. Sainovic tasked them with action to be completed within three

12     or four days.  What did you mean when you wrote that he tasked them?

13        A.   About what was discussed before that, that there seems to be an

14     operation prepared in Jablanica, Trpeza, and the border --

15        Q.   Okay.  But --

16        A.   -- and that we should deal with these terrorist sabotage

17     groups --

18        Q.   Yes, but I'm just focusing on when you say he tasked them.  What

19     do you mean by that?

20        A.   I cannot recall any particular tasks assigned to anyone.  He

21     probably spoke to the effect that such tasks should be implemented and

22     distributed among the units.  I simply noted down the gist of what I

23     believed important and what I can recall --

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the B/C/S we don't

Page 5699

 1     see that part of the document and -- nor does the witness.  We only see

 2     the English version.

 3             MR. STAMP:  I'm so sorry.  Could we -- yes.  I think the witness

 4     said that he can speak --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness said he didn't need to look at the

 6     document at the commencement of his evidence about this, Mr. Djurdjic.

 7             MR. STAMP:

 8        Q.   Having -- can you now answer my questions, General --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Just a minute, General.

10             Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I did not react until the moment

12     you started discussing the translation in the English version.  It was

13     then that I reacted, asking that we see the B/C/S version to see what is

14     written.  That was my reaction to your statement, and I have no idea what

15     the witness will say.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once I read this, I realise that

17     this may have been unclear to the translator.  It says, Sainovic assigned

18     the task or a task that the operation be completed within three or four

19     days.  He issued a task, i.e., that the operation should be completed in

20     three or four days, and I believe I said that even before I looked into

21     the notes.

22             MR. STAMP:

23        Q.   Yes.  Having regard to your record and your memory, can you tell

24     us what was your understanding of Sainovic's -- of Mr. Sainovic's

25     standing and relationship in respect to Generals Lukic, Lazarevic, and

Page 5700

 1     Pavkovic?

 2        A.   Mr. Sainovic was deputy president of the federal government or

 3     deputy prime minister.  He was one of the closest associates of

 4     President Milosevic.  His authority was beyond dispute.  He came from the

 5     very top of politics.  He enjoyed trust for that reason, and he was there

 6     as a person representing Slobodan Milosevic in Kosovo.  We were there

 7     discussing things when he and his escort came in, Zoran Andjelkovic, and

 8     then we all stood up.  You can see from that that he was the central

 9     figure.  You can also see that by the position he was seated at the

10     table.  There were neither Andjelkovic nor Pavkovic next to him.  They

11     were on the sides.  It was my conclusion that he was a person of

12     authority.  He also concluded that the operation be undertaken, setting a

13     dead-line of three or four days.

14             I don't know whether I'd call that a command function.  No one

15     reported to him as it usually would be when reporting to a military

16     officer, but obviously he was the most important person.  People listened

17     to him.  He listened to the daily debriefing and concluded the meeting.

18     I apologise if I spoke too fast.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said he concluded the meeting, which was going to

20     be the next question I was going to ask you, but you have said it.  What

21     do you mean when you say he concluded the meeting?  What can we gather

22     from that?

23        A.   Well, people can have various interpretations, but I believe I've

24     stated my conclusion.  I'm not sure I should go any deeper than that.  I

25     stated the facts, and I leave it up to anyone's conclusion.  I stated

Page 5701

 1     that I believe he was the person of most authority there, respected by

 2     others, and that the meeting began with his arrival.  It was also

 3     concluded once he said, We're done, let's go and eat.  I didn't write

 4     that down, but more or less that's the way it ended.

 5        Q.   And thank you because it reminds me of another thing I need to

 6     ask you about this document.  You don't have General Djordjevic's name

 7     here.  Is there any reason why, as he was present at the meeting?

 8        A.   I have explained at the beginning that I was no notekeeper.  I

 9     wasn't even ready to attend.  Among other things, I also believe I

10     omitted General Stevanovic, Obrad Stevanovic, although he was present.

11     As far as I recall, since it seems I need to go into further detail and I

12     believe Defence will have some questions as well, I wanted to say this:

13     When I contacted The Hague Tribunal's office in Belgrade, I reported

14     there as a suspect for certain crimes in Croatia.  As regards Kosovo and

15     whatever happened in 1999, I wasn't prepared to speak about that.

16             However, given that the discussion included Kosovo, the OTP

17     probably found the meeting in Pristina on the 1st of June interesting.  I

18     believe I then mentioned that Lukic did not intervene at the meeting,

19     rather, it was General Djordjevic.  Perhaps I even repeated that in the

20     Milosevic case.  However, when I was being proofed for the

21     Milutinovic et al. case and referring to Kosovo, I started going through

22     my notebooks and then I found Lukic as having contributed.  Then when I

23     said that he participated in the meeting and his Defence tried to deny

24     that, I asked -- I consulted my notebooks.  It was then that the Tribunal

25     asked for the notes to be photocopied, showing that Lukic was in

Page 5702

 1     attendance.  That's it.

 2        Q.   Very well.

 3        A.   There is no dilemma that what I am talking about now is

 4     absolutely correct.

 5        Q.   Yes, I just wanted you to explain the absence of his name and now

 6     you have indicated that not all the names of the generals present were

 7     there or were recorded in your short note.  Am I correct in saying that

 8     these persons you have mentioned here are the persons who made

 9     contributions or substantive contributions at the meeting?

10        A.   That is correct.  I only wrote down the names of those who

11     contributed; therefore, I didn't even mention (redacted).  That's why I

12     couldn't recall his first name off the cuff.  I still remember his

13     nickname but not his first name.  I only noted down the names of those

14     who contributed.  General Djordjevic did not.  He only briefly

15     interjected saying that General Ilic was not in attendance.  I didn't

16     write that down; I merely remembered it.  And I wanted to protect that

17     person and not mention his name in open session.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. STAMP:  That is why I think -- I ask that that part be --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic --

21             MR. STAMP:  -- redacted from the open, public record.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, my mistake.  I apologise.

24             MR. STAMP:

25        Q.   After the meeting, did you leave with Colonel Stojanovic?

Page 5703

 1        A.   Yes, I did.  We were supposed to stay over a dinner.  It was

 2     supposed to be a plain military dinner, but I went to see some officers

 3     who had been waiting for me at the corps and their security organ.

 4        Q.   Thanks --

 5        A.   I left with Colonel Stojanovic.

 6        Q.   Thanks.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Before I forget, Your Honours, could the copy of this

 8     page or pages from the notebook 052 -- sorry, 65 ter number 2862 be

 9     received in evidence?

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That, Your Honours, will be assigned P00885.

12             MR. STAMP:

13        Q.   Did you speak to your security -- or the Pristina Corps security

14     operative, Colonel Stojanovic, about the Joint Command?

15        A.   I did while we were going back, since as I said I was taken by

16     surprise by that meeting I asked him what it was.  He said, Well, it's a

17     Joint Command.  It was formed back in 1998.  When I asked him who were

18     its members and who attended meetings, I first and foremost wanted to

19     know about General Dimitrijevic, who was the head of administration.  At

20     that point he told me that initially it was Mr. Minic who attended, then

21     Sainovic, and that during a longer period the head of the state security

22     sector, Mr. Jovica Stanisic was there.  He said that Dimitrijevic did not

23     attend their meetings.  As for state security, from Kosovo he said

24     David Gajic was present since he was the key state security sector person

25     in Kosovo.  He also said that in the initial stages Colonel Stojanovic

Page 5704

 1     attended the meetings of what was called the Joint Command and that he

 2     drafted reports about what was discussed and he sent them to the security

 3     administration --

 4        Q.   One moment, please.

 5        A.   I guess I'm going too fast.

 6        Q.   He also said that in the initial stages -- I'm reading the record

 7     to you.  He also said that in the initial stages Colonel Stojanovic

 8     attended the meetings.  Is that what you intended to say?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  He also said that he drafted reports

10     about the matters discussed and sent them to General Dimitrijevic to

11     Belgrade.

12        Q.   Who is speaking here?  Who told you this?

13        A.   Stojanovic.

14        Q.   So I take it that you are saying that he also said that at the

15     initial stages he himself attended the meetings of what was called the

16     Joint Command and that he drafted reports?

17        A.   Yes.  What you say is correct.  He didn't keep the minutes, but

18     he simply drew reports to be sent to the security administration chief.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, now.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The witness is completely clear

22     and unambiguous.  I believe my learned friend's interpretations are

23     unnecessary and wrong.  I think it should be left to the witness to

24     provide answers which is precisely what he's doing clearly and concisely.

25     Thank you.

Page 5705

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Did he -- before I get to that, you mentioned

 4     General Dimitrijevic.  What was General Dimitrijevic's post in 1998 going

 5     into 1999?

 6        A.   General Dimitrijevic was the head of the security administration

 7     from 1993 until January 1999, so in 1998 he was head of the security

 8     administration of the General Staff in Belgrade.

 9        Q.   And I take it General Farkas succeeded him?

10        A.   Yes, he succeeded him as he received that post from him.

11        Q.   And did Mr. -- sorry, did Colonel Stojanovic tell you who were

12     the -- who, if anybody, were the attendees of the Joint Command meetings

13     from the MUP or from the VJ?

14        A.   He did not tell me who the MUP attendees were; but I also already

15     stated very clearly, he mentioned David Gajic from the state security

16     sector, he mentioned Jovica Stanovic [as interpreted] who was head of

17     state security sector, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Minic.  I'm not sure about a

18     person by the name of Vlatkovic, somebody from the PS [as interpreted],

19     some of the officials, but he did not mention any officials from the MUP

20     public security sector.

21        Q.   Okay.  He mentioned Jovica Stanisic, is that the correct name?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   And you said a Vlatkovic from the PS.  What is the PS?

24        A.   I don't know anybody by the name of Vlajkovic.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 5706

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said SPS

 2     not PS; it did not enter the transcript correctly.  Mr. Stamp may try to

 3     clarify it.  It's line 19, the PS is what is written down and the witness

 4     stated SPS.  And I noted down an official -- a functioner from the SPS.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say Vlajkovic, rather, I

 6     said Vlatkovic, but I am not sure about the family name of that person,

 7     so this is why I referred to the SPS.

 8             MR. STAMP:

 9        Q.   You --

10             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, counsel.

11        Q.   You remained general in Kosovo for how long after the

12     1st of June?

13        A.   I stayed there until the 7th of June.  On the 8th of June, I was

14     back in Belgrade.

15        Q.   We'll get back to Belgrade.  I just wanted to know.  In the

16     course of time there, did you receive information as to exactly what was

17     the role and function of the Joint Command in Kosovo?

18        A.   No, we no longer discussed that.  It wasn't a relevant issue for

19     me to be dealing with at the time.  What I related, I omitted in that

20     only one detail in that conversation while we were going back to the

21     command of the Pristina Corps, Colonel Stojanovic told me that soon he

22     was removed from attendance of the sessions of the Joint Command.  He was

23     told that there was -- that his attendance served no purpose, that corps

24     commander was there, the army commander was in attendance.  His personal

25     assessment was that he was eliminated because he was reporting back to

Page 5707

 1     Belgrade on what was being deliberated there and this was the end of the

 2     story of the Joint Command when it came to our discussions and later on

 3     we never discussed it further.

 4        Q.   In the course of that discussion, did he mention to you what the

 5     purpose of the Joint Command was?

 6        A.   No, he did not.  It wasn't an issue for us.  It wasn't of

 7     interest to me, and this is why I did not ask questions about that.  I

 8     just listened to what he had to say during that drive to Pristina Corps

 9     command, and this was the last time that we discussed this matter.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. STAMP:  Could we bring up on screen document

12     65 ter number 01462.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] An objection in advance.  This

15     document has nothing to do with this witness.  The person who is supposed

16     to verify this document has been placed - by the Trial Chamber's

17     decision - placed on the list of witnesses for the Prosecution.  I don't

18     believe that this is appropriate for this document to be shown to this

19     witness, especially I object to this document being introduced through

20     this witness.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, what's the direction you're taking here,

22     Mr. Stamp?

23             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I would submit that the document is

24     relevant and probative --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  That's not in dispute.

Page 5708

 1             MR. STAMP:  As long as the witness can identify the document and

 2     it's -- and give evidence as to its authenticity, it becomes admissible.

 3     What he might be able to say about the contents may be limited, but that

 4     is a matter for the Court to address.  But if he can authenticate it, it

 5     is also my submission that it becomes admissible.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  So you're planning to put this to the witness with

 7     a view to the witness identifying it in such a way as to justify its

 8     admission?

 9             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Go ahead, and we'll see whether you achieve your

11     objective.

12             MR. STAMP:

13        Q.   Are you familiar with Colonel Djakovic who was formerly a

14     member -- a senior member of the Pristina Corps in the 3rd Army in 1999?

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first we have to ask

17     the witness what Colonel Djakovic was, which post he occupied.  My

18     learned colleague reaches his own conclusions and then wants the witness

19     to continue and follow up with his answers.  This is a time when the

20     witness was not in active service.  On the 27th of April, 1999, he was

21     reinstated.  And before he answers, I would like to hear from him when

22     was the first time he learned about this document if he -- any -- has any

23     knowledge about this document.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  The issue that needs to be addressed at the

25     moment, Mr. Stamp, is that you were leading and that should not occur.

Page 5709

 1     You're on notice clearly about this document and these events against

 2     leading and tread carefully with the document so that we can see where

 3     you're going and whether it's justified.

 4             MR. STAMP:

 5        Q.   Do you see the document in front of you -- and perhaps I

 6     should -- if I could, with the leave of the Court, hand the witness a

 7     binder --

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you proceeding with your question about

 9     Colonel Djakovic?

10             MR. STAMP:  I was -- I intended to get back to that, but I

11     could -- I could --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  The admissible question is:  Do you know him?

13             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Do you know Colonel Djakovic?

15        A.   I know a General Djakovic who early on was a security officer in

16     a brigade in the 1970s.  General Djakovic became head of the security

17     administration after General Geza Farkas was removed from that post.  At

18     that time, June 2000, I was an advisor to the Chief of the General Staff

19     for security.  However, I continued working at the security

20     administration to help General Djakovic to find his bearings because he

21     had not reached that position from a position of responsibility in the

22     security service but from the command of the 3rd Army.  And that's why

23     from June 2000 until 2001, in March when I left active service, I worked

24     with him.  I know him very well.  We maintained contacts after I was

25     pensioned off, and soon thereafter he was pensioned off as well.  He at

Page 5710

 1     the time, received invitations to contact The Hague office in a certain

 2     capacity.  He phoned me because he knew I had gone through such

 3     procedures.  He told me that he kept minutes and this was his assessment

 4     why he was being contacted by The Hague office, the minutes of the

 5     meetings of the Joint Command in Pristina.  I was interested in the

 6     circumstances leading to him keeping the minutes, and he says he himself

 7     suggested that for the first time he attended with General Pavkovic,

 8     seeing that nobody was taking the minutes as a soldier he said,

 9     General Pavkovic, nobody's noting down anything and General Pavkovic told

10     him, Well, you take the minutes.  So General Djakovic told me that for a

11     time he kept the minutes of the sessions of the Joint Command.

12             When I came here, I was shown a photocopy most probably of

13     that -- those minutes.  I know General Djakovic's handwriting because I

14     worked with him, he signed documents that we sent, et cetera, so I can

15     recognise his handwriting.  I cannot be an expert graphologist, but from

16     what I saw I gained an impression that this was General Djakovic's

17     handwriting in the initial pages that I saw and the rest of the pages.

18     So to cut a long story short, to resolve this enigma of me being asked

19     about this -- in circumstances when in 1998 I was not in active duty.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, after such an answer by the

22     witness, I do strenuously believe that this document cannot be introduced

23     through him, irrespective of his subsequent knowledge gained in 2000,

24     despite the fact that he is not a graphologist, and anyway that witness

25     is going to testify here.  I agree that this is a relevant piece of

Page 5711

 1     evidence, but not through this witness.  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

 4             MR. STAMP:  We plan and we hope and anticipate that the witness

 5     will testify and the witness will deal with this document, as we hope and

 6     expect that he will.  But the fact that another witness may come and is

 7     expected to come, it is my submission does not prevent an earlier witness

 8     who can authenticate a witness from doing so, and we never know what can

 9     happen --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, we adjourn for the night because we

11     have passed 7.00.

12             MR. STAMP:  Right.  I'm so sorry.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  You reflect on it.  If you propose tomorrow to --

14     in the morning to continue with your effort to tender the document.  As

15     I've indicated, proceed carefully with your questions, and we have

16     already noted Mr. Djurdjic's objection and it will be the subject of

17     decision at an appropriate time as you pursue the matter if that's the

18     course you take in the morning.

19             I'm afraid, General, we have to stop now.  We have to finish at

20     7.00.  We resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.  We look forward to

21     continue your evidence then.

22             We now adjourn.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 a.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

25                           June, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.