Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5873

 1                           Thursday, 11 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, General.  The affirmation you made

 7     to tell the truth still applies, and Mr. Djurdjic is near the end of his

 8     questions.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Well, the

10     end is in sight, obviously.

11                           WITNESS:  ALEKSANDAR VASILJEVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, General.

15        A.   Good morning.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have a few more documents for us

17     to go through so may we have Defence Exhibit D003-2555 next, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see this document.  It

19     hasn't got the stamp, I don't know why.  There's just a handwritten

20     entry, but that's not contentious; I know that the judiciary and the

21     court's function during the war.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you.  This is a document

23     about mobilisation, mobilised courts, and military prosecutors and so on.

24     And I'd like to tender this document into evidence, please.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

Page 5874

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00199, Your Honours.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next document, please, is

 3     exhibit under 65 ter 1918.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see the document.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   It just shows us that the Supreme Command staff throughout the

 7     war took account of the judiciary and military courts and the importance

 8     that it attached to them; do you agree with that, that that is the gist

 9     of this document?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can I tender this

12     document.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00200, Your Honours.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next exhibit is D003-2753, a

16     Defence document.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same thing again.  I'm

18     familiar with this kind of format and this kind of document once again

19     relating to the military courts.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]  I would like to tender this

22     document into evidence now, please.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00201, Your Honours.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next document is D003-2736.

Page 5875

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May we zoom in if you want me to

 2     read through the document to see what it actually says, please.

 3             Yes, here we have the priorities set out in conducting criminal

 4     proceedings, and I can see that the date is the 8th of June, which is

 5     almost the end of the war.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]  And may I tender this document

 8     into evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00202, Your Honours.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The next document is

12     D003-2999.

13        Q.   General, am I right in saying that this is a document from the

14     president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia dated the

15     18th of April, 1992 [sic].  It is in fact an order, and the application

16     of Article 17 of the Law on Defence and Subordination pursuant to that,

17     or resubordination?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

20     now, please.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00203, Your Honours.

23             MR. STAMP:  At line 14, I suspect the year is 1999, although we

24     can see that from the document.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, the transcript wrongly has 1992.  Thank you.

Page 5876

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think we need

 2     to correct that, do we?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  I see the document is dated -- it appears as

 4     though it could be 1992, and yet I suspect it's a 9, 1999, that is

 5     underlined.  That may be the source of the mistake.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a document dated the

 7     18th of April, 1999.  And then we have other documents, one we saw by the

 8     chief of the Supreme Command, and I'm now going to propose to put forth

 9     two more documents which are a set and follow on from this order on

10     subordination.

11             So I hope the usher won't mind if I've got the number wrong, 65

12     ter document, 1722 is the number according to my records, but I might

13     have got that wrong, so I apologise if I have.  And it is not exhibited

14     yet.  It's an order by the commander of the 3rd Army dated the

15     20th of April, 1999.  Yes, it has been admitted.  I'm told it has been

16     admitted.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Do you want me to comment?

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]  No.  Well, I'd like to tender

19     this document now.  The next document under 65 ter is 1504 --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Just a minute, please.  These documents are of

21     varying importance and those that are more important we are trying to

22     absorb as we go, Mr. Djurdjic.

23             It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document under 65 ter 01722 will be

25     assigned D00204.

Page 5877

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The next document under

 2     65 ter is 1504, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is a whole series of

 4     documents relating to resubordination of the MUP organs, and this is at

 5     the level of the Pristina Corps, assignment to the brigades.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you tender that, Mr. Djurdjic?

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00205, Your Honours.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The next document I'd

11     like called up under 65 ter is 2809.

12        Q.   General, this is another order of the Pristina Corps dated the

13     25th of April.  Do you agree that by this order the Pristina Corps in

14     fact sets out in greater detail the order that was issued previously of

15     the 3rd Army of the 20th of April, 1999?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.  And what is regulated here in point 4 is that

17     the military conscripts which had thus far been temporarily engaged in

18     the MUP reserve units be returned to their original war units, and that

19     is set out in point 4.

20        Q.   Would you look at para 1, please.

21        A.   In para 1 or point 1, it says that these units should remain

22     Special Police units, and the territorial units of MUP, that is to say

23     the OPG and others, the detachments, which were locally positioned.  They

24     remained within the composition and under the authority of the MUP

25     forces.

Page 5878

 1        Q.   No, no, read point 1.

 2        A.   Engage forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia,

 3     PJP Special Police forces, manoeuvre detachments, and MUP territorial

 4     units to carry out combat tasks in the PRK zone.  In the zone of the

 5     Pristina Corps -- let me repeat, engage the units of the MUP of Serbia

 6     and then:  Manoeuvre detachments, Special Police units, and

 7     MUP territorial units.  Other forces and institutions shall continue to

 8     remain under the jurisdiction of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

 9             So these units are being resubordinated and still remain under

10     the army and outside that composition they come under the jurisdiction of

11     MUP.

12        Q.   Thank you, General.  That means that these units, the PJP units

13     and the manoeuvre detachments and territorial units are resubordinated

14     whereas other organisational units continue to perform their tasks under

15     the jurisdiction of the ministry of the Republic of Serbia?

16        A.   Yes.  And this is in conformity with the principles of

17     resubordination, the forces are resubordinated for combat whereas -- and

18     these are units carrying out combat operations.

19        Q.   When it comes to combat operations, would you agree with me when

20     I say that during the war in 1999, this resubordination was carried out

21     at the level of the brigades, and that it was the brigades who were the

22     protagonists of the combat action, who engaged in combat action?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct, because the brigades were tactical units,

24     that is, the lowest level or rather highest level of tactical units.  Not

25     the lowest, I meant to say highest.  The highest tactical unit which in

Page 5879

 1     fact organises and carries out complex combat operations.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And would you agree with me when I say that not a

 3     single corps operation that is operation of the Pristina Corps during the

 4     war was carried out?

 5        A.   Well, you know what, I can't say that because the corps is given

 6     the task and assignment from the army command; and all corps units,

 7     therefore, objectively speaking, are deployed and engaged.  And if you

 8     look at the orders from the corps command, for instance, in point 4 where

 9     the decision is made as to the manner in which the corps will be deployed

10     and engaged, later on through point 5 all the corps units, almost all of

11     them are given combat assignments.

12             Now, whether that is in fact a corps operation, I would say that

13     all the forces of the corps, the combat forces of the corps, were engaged

14     for the most part.

15        Q.   All right.  We'll go into that subject with somebody else then.

16     The corps operations during the war didn't exist, they were all at the

17     level of the brigade.  But let's move on, I'll take that up with someone

18     else.

19        A.   All right.

20        Q.   General, am I right in saying that the MUP and its organs were

21     not the subject of operative processing of the security administration?

22        A.   Yes, you are right.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, as we've come to the war, let me say -- ask you

24     this:  Pursuant to the Law on Defence, it is the duty of all state organs

25     including the MUP to compile a war plan?

Page 5880

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did the MUP too have to, in view of the

 3     situation that existed at the beginning of 1999 and at the end of 1998,

 4     have to take measures in conformity with its war plan and pursuant to its

 5     war plan?

 6        A.   Not only in conformity with the war plan, but also in conformity

 7     with the situation on the ground.  Because a war plan is devised and made

 8     up for an assumed situation in the future which emanates from an

 9     estimation that that situation would come about.  So that -- and those

10     documents are termed the state secret.  And then the plan is updated.

11     Now, MUP action is commensurate to the situation on the ground which can

12     be outside what has been planned in a war plan.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I don't know if you know that within the

14     Ministry of the Interior there was a department charged with war

15     preparations?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   That department closely cooperated with the corresponding

18     services of the Army of Yugoslavia?

19        A.   Yes.  As well as with all other organs of the Ministry of Defence

20     and the various companies which were supposed to have their own war plans

21     devised.  Some institutions and companies had to have developed their own

22     war plans in keeping with the orders of the level of the country.

23        Q.   As regards the department of the MUP, accordingly all army units

24     had similar war plans because there was a need to act in a harmonised way

25     when implementing all those war plans?

Page 5881

 1        A.   Yes, it was envisaged that even lower-ranking units have their

 2     own war plans in keeping with the general war plan of the MUP of the

 3     Republic of Serbia.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that according to the war plans

 5     there was a possibility envisaged that various commands and other state

 6     organs and institutions be transferred to another location?

 7        A.   One of the activities was deployment or movement to the war

 8     locations.

 9        Q.   In the army, it is the main command post, a forward command post,

10     and as for civilian organs it -- they had their own locations?

11        A.   Yes, but not only command posts, but also material supplies which

12     would then be transferred from peacetime locations to wartime locations.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the Ministry of the Interior

14     relocated from Knez Milos Street 103 at the beginning of the war when the

15     state of war was declared?

16        A.   I know that by that time everyone had relocated and that most of

17     those buildings were empty at the time when targeted.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the ministers and chiefs of

19     services were relocated to various locations around Belgrade?

20        A.   I don't know where they relocated, but since their buildings were

21     empty, they must have had their war locations.

22        Q.   Did you know that the ministry by virtue of its activity, which

23     covered the entire territory of Serbia, still directed operations from

24     Belgrade?

25        A.   I don't know where they directed operations from.

Page 5882

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see the minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, during

 2     the war?

 3        A.   I did not.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear that the ministry or rather certain of

 5     its parts were in different locations, one of those being the commercial

 6     bank in Belgrade?

 7        A.   I don't know that.  I only know for the location of the state

 8     security service that was in Belgrade.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are overlapping and not pausing,

10     they'll have to repeat the last two questions and answers.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We'll have to repeat.  Can you tell me where was the state

13     security service relocated?

14        A.   When we attended a meeting during the war to see

15     Mr. Rade Markovic, we went to the general area of Dedinje towards the

16     highway and greenhouse.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Given the nature of your work, you were familiar in

18     terms of cooperation with the state security sector rather than the

19     public security sector given the different remits of the two sectors?

20        A.   Our basic tasks coincided more with the tasks of the state

21     security service than the public security service.  In any case, we

22     cooperated with both of them if there were such problems that required

23     cooperation with the public security sector, although it did not happen

24     as frequently as with the state security service.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I looked through some documents and it seems to me

Page 5883

 1     that you cooperated mostly with the state security in bringing in

 2     conscripts which -- who fled their units or were supposed to report to

 3     their units; therefore, the police had most work in that regard?

 4        A.   There was no need for us to meet in particular with the

 5     republican sector of public security because the number of such people

 6     was not so great.  Our manning strength was almost always up to

 7     100 per cent.  In any case, this would have been one of the regular tasks

 8     which would require our communication.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that throughout the war, the

10     public security sector performed their legally prescribed security

11     related tasks such as keeping public law and order, detecting and

12     prosecuting crimes and defenders, as well as traffic control, border

13     control, fire-fighting, and administrative tasks?

14        A.   I suppose so.

15        Q.   Since there was a state of war, did you know that in the entire

16     territory of the Republic of Serbia their main task was to secure persons

17     in certain locations that were targeted?

18        A.   Yes, and also should there have been a location that was bombed,

19     they were in charge of on-site investigations.

20        Q.   And the other tasks I mentioned such as fire-fighting, those were

21     all tasks of the public security sector?

22        A.   Yes, and they were quite successful in that.

23        Q.   Did you know that the police had to be informed of all locations

24     that were bombed in order for them to draft reports, and that was one of

25     the main tasks of the public security sector throughout Serbia?

Page 5884

 1        A.   You are correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask -- well, not

 4     yet.

 5        Q.   General, are you familiar in detail with the functioning and

 6     organisation of the Ministry of the Interior, or does your knowledge come

 7     as a result of your long career and the tasks you worked on?

 8        A.   I know the ministry in general, not in a detailed fashion, since

 9     there was no need for it.

10        Q.   You must know, I believe, that the minister prescribes the way

11     minister tasks are to be implemented and he also provides instructions on

12     how to do so?

13        A.   I think any minister does that within their own respective

14     ministries.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Certain details you mentioned such as decisions on

16     the formation of the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit as well as PJP police

17     units comes from your general knowledge rather than from you seeing those

18     specific documents during the war?

19        A.   I did not see such documents, but I do know that such units

20     existed, and I'm familiar with their basic tasks.

21        Q.   Thank you.  But you probably don't know who it was that could

22     order the assembly and deployment of such units and in what way, are you

23     familiar with such details?

24        A.   The assembly of such units, as far as I know, was done in 1998

25     due to the situation in Kosovo, and they were sent there in shifts.  This

Page 5885

 1     concerns the PJP units.  They rotated.  I don't know, though, whether

 2     their shifts lasted for a fortnight or three weeks.

 3        Q.   You now said that these units rotated, who was it that could make

 4     a decision about that, are you familiar with that?

 5        A.   I'm not.  I suppose that was regulated by virtue of the orders of

 6     the minister of the interior and tasks were assigned pursuant to what had

 7     been decided on the sessions of the Supreme Defence Council, or the

 8     sessions of another body.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I have document P57.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you mean to tender the last document we

12     studied?

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I thought we

14     have dealt with that document some time ago, but obviously I'm not

15     focused enough today.  I would kindly seek to tender that document.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document under 65 ter 02809, Your Honours, will

18     be assigned D00206.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it, and I see the names

20     of the persons tasked with specific tasks.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Did you know that the person in charge of this staff for the

23     suppression of terrorism was Sreten Lukic in June 1998?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And deputy head of the staff, do you know that it was

Page 5886

 1     David Gajic?

 2        A.   I know him, but I didn't know he was the deputy head of the

 3     staff.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us where did David Gajic work?

 5        A.   In the state security sector.

 6        Q.   In addition to being a member of the staff, do you know whether

 7     he held any other positions in Kosova-Metohija in 1998?

 8        A.   He was in charge of the state security sector in Kosova-Metohija.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The fourth name, can you tell us who that is,

10     assistant head for special operations?

11        A.   It was Milorad Lukovic, aka Legija, who otherwise commanded the

12     JSO units of the public security sector.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  State security

14     sector.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 2 now.

16        Q.   At the end of the list, can you have a look at that portion of

17     the document and tell us who were the additional members of the staff?

18        A.   The way it is written it included chiefs of the

19     Secretariats for Internal Affairs and centres and branches of the RDB in

20     Kosova-Metohija.  On request of the head of the person in charge of the

21     staff, other employees of the ministry may be appointed.

22        Q.   In item 2 we see the task of the staff.  Do you agree with me

23     that it was to plan, organise, and control the work and engagement of

24     organisational units of the ministry; and also sent and detached units in

25     suppressing terrorists in the autonomous province of Kosova-Metohija?

Page 5887

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you comment item 3 for me, please?

 3             MR. STAMP:  Doesn't the witness indicate that he doesn't know

 4     about the organisation of the MUP in terms of his management?  He just

 5     has a general knowledge of it.  If he is shown a document like this and

 6     ask a question like that, he is of necessity speculating, he's being

 7     asked to speculate.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I believe what he is being asked to do is merely

 9     repeat what the document says, which is not of great value to us.  He is

10     not inputting his own knowledge.  This is the way I understand the

11     evidence.

12             Continue, Mr. Djurdjic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it, and I see that this

14     head of the staff was answerable to the minister concerning his actions.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Does this correspond to what you know, what you knew about the

17     staff in 1998 and 1999?

18        A.   Only in part.  I'm reading this with some attention because all

19     the details are included.  It's a shame if the commander of the

20     Pristina Corps was not acquainted with this document because they had

21     joint meetings.  I see this document for the first time.  Given my

22     position, there was no need for me to see it earlier.  However, I find it

23     interesting to see who the persons involved were, some of whom I do know

24     and, well, others I don't.

25        Q.   Between 1999 and today during which period you gave statements on

Page 5888

 1     the functioning of the MUP and you provided your opinion, you did not

 2     know about this document?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Witness, after you were re-activated in service, did you attend

 5     meetings of the Supreme Defence Council?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were re-activated, did you attend the

 8     collegium meetings of the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command of the

 9     Yugoslav Army?

10        A.   During the war I did not, and after the war I think I did on two

11     occasions.

12        Q.   Thank you.  From the moment when you were re-activated, did you

13     attend, occasionally, government meetings, meetings of the government of

14     Yugoslavia or the Republic of Serbia?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You will correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe

17     that from March up until the end of the war, you saw -- you went to see

18     the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on three occasions,

19     President Slobodan Milosevic?

20        A.   I did see him three times.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct that you were not present when reports

22     were submitted to the supreme commander and president of the FRY,

23     Slobodan Milosevic?

24        A.   I was not present, and I do not know who reported to him, who

25     submitted the reports to him.

Page 5889

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you attend the briefings at the office of

 2     the president of the Republic of Serbia, Milan Milutinovic?

 3        A.   No, I never even saw him.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And did you attend the briefings at the office of the

 5     president of the federal government, Momir Pjeletovic?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you attend briefings at the office of the president of the

 8     government of the Republic of Serbia, Mirko Marjanovic?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know that the federal minister of the

11     interior was Mr. Zoran Sokolovic during the war and before the war?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the deputy minister -- the deputy

14     federal minister of the interior was General Mile Puzovic?

15        A.   I did not know what his position was, but I did know that he held

16     a responsible duty.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In view of what you knew about the state security

18     sector in the course of your work, you told us over the past days that

19     Jovica Stanisic requested when he was -- when Vlajko Stojiljkovic was

20     appointed minister, that he brief the minister directly, that he report

21     to the minister directly.  Did I understand this correctly?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And am I right in saying that at that time when the

24     president of Republic of Serbia was -- am I correct that the president of

25     the Republic of Serbia at that time was Slobodan Milosevic?

Page 5890

 1        A.   No, at that time he was the president of the FRY.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, could I please -- could we

 4     please have document 3203 pulled up on the screen.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel please

 6     repeat the document number.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] D003-3203.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Were we notified of this one?

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that

10     Ms. O'Leary did do this, that she supplemented our list, and I would

11     appreciate it -- let me check if we have it.  That's ERN number

12     K022-7740.  But, Your Honour, I believe there is an error in the

13     transcript, an error in the formulation of my question.

14        Q.   My question was, did I understand correctly that you said that

15     Jovica Stanisic when he was -- when Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic was

16     appointed as minister, that he did not report to him and brief him?  And

17     the witness said?

18        A.   Well, as far -- as far as the information that I'm aware of is

19     concerned, I can't say that this was done at the moment when he was

20     appointed, when Vlajko Stojiljkovic was appointed minister.  Rather when

21     he -- during the time when he was minister and when he asked for

22     Jovica Stanisic to brief him, he refused to do so and he requested that

23     he be seen by President Milosevic.  And I can say this man is no longer

24     living, he died a while back so we can't really check on this, but that's

25     what I said.

Page 5891

 1        Q.   Yes, but you told me then that at the time the president of the

 2     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was Slobodan Milosevic; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  I did look at this document, this was the period April 1997

 4     and the signature there is of the President of Serbia Slobodan Milosevic.

 5     However, it isn't clear what kind of guide-lines are mentioned here.  The

 6     sector of state security will conduct its operations in keeping with the

 7     guide-lines of the president of the Republic of Serbia, but I don't know

 8     what these guide-lines are.

 9        Q.   Since we do not have the translation of this, would you please

10     read this decision from the start, starting with "state secret" please

11     read it so that it's clear.

12        A.   Yes:

13             "Pursuant to Article 83 of the constitution of the

14     Republic of Serbia, I hereby issue the following decision:  First, at the

15     time when preparations are made to adopt the federal law on security of

16     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the sector of state security will

17     conduct its operations in keeping with the guide-lines of the president

18     of the republic and the government of the Republic of Serbia from the

19     moment when this decision comes into force up until the day when the

20     federal law is adopted, which in keeping with the constitution of the

21     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia provides that the tasks of security will

22     be set forth in keeping with the jurisdiction of the Federal Republic

23     of Yugoslavia.  2, this decision shall come into effect on the day of its

24     adoption."

25             And then the signature is the president of the republic,

Page 5892

 1     Slobodan Milosevic.

 2        Q.   Would you please repeat the year when this was adopted?

 3        A.   I've already said that, it was adopted on the

 4     21st of April, 1997.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you to repeat this because what I heard as a

 6     translation was 1977, that's why I wanted you to repeated the year.

 7             Witness, at the time when this decision was adopted, do you agree

 8     that the president of Serbia was Slobodan Milosevic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that relates to the the portion of your testimony where you

11     said that the chief of the sector was to report or brief him?

12        A.   No, it was like this:  Both during the time of Rade Markovic and

13     all other ministers, the sector of security, of state security, was

14     within the Ministry of the Interior.  That was how it was legally

15     regulated.

16             But as for in practice, practically the greatest influence over

17     its work and the influence that was exerted on this person was -- or came

18     from the relationship between the president of the Republic of Serbia,

19     and the chief of the state security.  And I can go back to 1997, the year

20     when I came into this service.

21             Regardless of how this was regulated by law, this man was

22     directly connected or directly related to and briefed the president of

23     Serbia.

24        Q.   That's what I was going to ask you about.  Now, do you know what

25     the constitutional provisions are of the authority of the president of

Page 5893

 1     the Republic of Serbia under the constitution of the Republic of Serbia

 2     of 1991, and what his competencies are in the area of state security?

 3        A.   I don't know what the constitution provides.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let me ask you this:  Did you know that at this

 5     time Mr. Rade Markovic was assistant minister of the interior?  So I'm

 6     talking about 1977.

 7        A.   You mean 1997?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Whose assistant was he?

10        Q.   Assistant minister of the interior, and I think for crime, for

11     general crime.

12        A.   Yes, I know he was in the public security service.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to ask you about this --

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document

15     into evidence with an MFI indication.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, it won't be received; it will be marked for

17     identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00207 MFI,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  And while we are dealing with that, the document

21     that you showed to the witness before this one, the decision to establish

22     the ministerial staff for the suppression of terrorism, for the record it

23     should be noted that is in fact Exhibit P57.  Thank you.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Witness --

Page 5894

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up

 2     65 ter document 5231.  Can we please pull it up on the screens.  I

 3     apologise, the number should be -- of this document should be 5231.

 4        Q.   Witness, as far as you know, when was the change at the head of

 5     the sector of state security carried out?

 6        A.   In early October 1998.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We can see here a decision to set up a collegium of

 8     the minister of the interior, and I refer you to items 2 and 3.  Could

 9     you tell us who the members of this collegium were?

10        A.   Yes, I've seen it.

11        Q.   Could you please tell us the names for the record?

12        A.   Well, since this document is going to be admitted, I can read the

13     document.

14        Q.   No, just tell us the names.

15        A.   Radomir Markovic and his assistant Nikola Curcic -- his deputy,

16     Nikola Curcic

17        Q.   Thank you.  So at the time when this document was issued,

18     Radomir Markovic was the assistant minister chief of the state security

19     and Nikola Curcic was the deputy chief of the state security department;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And they were members of the collegium of the

23     Minister of the Interior Vlajko Stojiljkovic; is that different compared

24     to the period when Jovica Stanisic was at the head of the sector?

25        A.   No, I don't know; but I assume there was no difference.

Page 5895

 1        Q.   Well, before this decision was issued, the chief of the

 2     department or the sector did not attend the meetings of the collegium of

 3     the minister of the interior, whereas here we see that those meetings

 4     were attended also by the chief and the deputy chief of the state

 5     security sector?

 6        A.   I don't know how it was done during the period before this

 7     collegium, but I know that the sector of the interior, the sector of

 8     security, was a sector and not a service.  And I said in general terms

 9     speaking that there were two sectors within the Ministry of the Interior:

10     the state security and the public security sectors.

11             So it would be logical that throughout the service one of the

12     members of the collegium should also be the chief of the state security

13     because he belongs to the Ministry of the Interior, and I assumed that

14     that was the case before 1998, that it was the case in 1991 as well.

15        Q.   Well, let's move on.  Your assumption is wrong, and that's why I

16     wanted to point this document out to you.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, you keep stating facts.  You are not

18     giving evidence.  You must only ask questions of the witness.  You don't

19     tell him your assumption is wrong.  I'm sure you understand the basic

20     rules in that regard.  Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I did not mean to

22     pursue this.  I was going to move on.

23        Q.   So, Witness, in your testimony so far you did not have in mind

24     this document that I just pointed out to you, but you told us about the

25     organisation of the Ministry of the Interior and what kind of

Page 5896

 1     relationships within it existed?

 2        A.   I did not know of this document, but I did not speak about the

 3     details.  I always said that I knew what the organisation and structure

 4     was in general terms.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is a

 7     65 ter document, but it -- in its original form -- in its original form,

 8     this document is a two-page document and then there are some attachments

 9     which I have no idea how were forwarded to the OTP.  So my proposal is

10     that the first two pages of this document be adopted -- admitted into

11     evidence.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  The whole document will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned D00208.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps the second page can be brought onto the

16     screen.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen the entire document

18     now.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, I'd like now to move on to another area.  When you were

22     in control from the 1st to the 7th of June in the Pristina Corps, I

23     assume, and the 3rd Army, you talked to Sergej Perovic.  Am I right in

24     saying that he provided you with the initial information and that he said

25     that that information should be verified?

Page 5897

 1        A.   What do you mean, what part of his briefing and reporting?

 2        Q.   I mean in Djakovica when he told you about the OPG.

 3        A.   No, that wasn't the initial information that I received and

 4     whether they should be verified and enhanced.  Before that, I came to

 5     take over reports that were compiled by the security organs; and I

 6     received all these reports in great detail.  And later on, the chief of

 7     the security sector of the 3rd Army compiled a summary.

 8             Now, what Sergej put forward, and relating to information on the

 9     ground where his brigade was located and so on, that was what he knew at

10     the time; and there was no need to go into them in depth or to verify

11     them.  They were just received as a byproduct if I can use that term, as

12     a byproduct to what he learned in relation to his regular work.  So I

13     didn't need to check it out nor was I in a position to do that.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you.  Well, I don't know if

15     we need -- but let's look at the next document, and it is D003-2879,

16     page 21083, lines 22 to 25.

17        Q.   General, it's part of the statement made by Sergej Perovic, his

18     testimony, in connection with what he was informing you about in

19     Djakovica.  And his answer when asked was:

20             "I was given the assignment to check the veracity of those

21     allegations, which I did.  I spent a few days trying to establish the

22     possible truth of this allegation; and after that, I informed

23     Colonel Stojanovic that I was unable to confirm these allegations."

24        A.   And who gave him the assignment to check it out?

25        Q.   Well, when you were with him there and talked to him, he says

Page 5898

 1     that he checked it all out and that he informed Colonel Stojanovic with

 2     respect to that verification conducted by him.

 3             Perhaps Stojanovic gave him this task of assignment, but anyway

 4     it was with respect to what he reported to you?

 5        A.   Well, I didn't give him any assignment to check this out.  I

 6     don't know whether he received an assignment later on from someone and

 7     whether he acted upon it or not.  I just told you what he reported to me,

 8     and that this was as I say, a byproduct of general information, that it

 9     wasn't my duty to check it out or take it any further than that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In your testimony over the past few days --

11        A.   I'm sorry, may I make myself clearer.  If somebody needed to

12     check this out then what they should have done was the chief of the

13     security of the Pristina Corps should send a letter to the staff of the

14     MUP of Kosovo and say, According to our additional information, we have

15     received information that such and such had happened; please inform us

16     whether this is reliable information or not.

17             So that is now this should have been done.  I don't see how else.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You've just remind me of something else, the document

19     of the 25th of May, 1999, Pavkovic's, you've just reminded me of that.

20     Do you happen to remember that General Pavkovic and General Lukic on the

21     4th of May submitted a report to the president of the

22     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and that a statement was issued to that

23     effect about that?

24        A.   I don't know about that.  I said that I was in Montenegro on the

25     4th of May.

Page 5899

 1        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  Then we can move on.

 2             Yesterday, you mentioned -- well, I think you said that a

 3     politician from the SPS was Vlatkovic, can I remind you and tell you that

 4     there was a politician called Matkovic and that he was the minister for

 5     industry in the government of the Republic of Serbia and the director of

 6     a company at that time.

 7        A.   Yes, you are quite right.

 8        Q.   That he was in charge of developmental issues, the development of

 9     the economy in Kosovo and Metohija, do you remember that?

10        A.   I don't know what he was in charge of, but I do know that he was

11     an official --

12        Q.   And a minister of the government of the Republic of Serbia?

13        A.   Why minister?  Minister for what?

14        Q.   Minister of industry.

15        A.   Thank you, I didn't know about that.

16             MR. STAMP:  At line 24 of the last page, I heard words after the

17     word "official," and I think it might be corrected later.  I think for

18     the purpose of today's proceedings, we should know what the witness said

19     there.  He said I know he was an official, and I heard the interpreters

20     say something, but it's not recorded here.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you going to have that confirmed with the

22     witness, Mr. Djurdjic?

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  Let me see what it

24     is, what you want me to do.  I'm not clear on what I need to do.  Line,

25     what did you say the line was?

Page 5900

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I see.

 3        Q.   In line 24 we have an official, but I know that he was an

 4     official, what did you say, Witness?  An official of what?  Did you say

 5     he had a high-ranking position or what?

 6        A.   I don't know, I don't know what you are talking about.

 7        Q.   With respect to Matkovic?

 8        A.   You asked me whether I knew that in the government of Serbia

 9     there was a Mr. Matkovic, and I said that yes I did know that; I was

10     aware of that.  So it's not Vlatkovic, it's Matkovic.  I said Vlatkovic,

11     but it's with an M, Matkovic.  So you asked me whether it might have been

12     Matkovic, and I said, Yes.  And was he in the government of Serbia, and

13     the director of --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the name of what he

15     was director of.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You told me he was the minister of

17     industry, I didn't know about that.  But as I don't know English, I can't

18     really say.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly request that the

20     witness repeat what the man was director of.  Sartid, it sounded like

21     S-a-r-t-i-d.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Yes, he was director of Sartid.  S-a-r-t-i-d.

24        A.   Yes, it was a company in Smederevo.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  That's got to the bottom of

Page 5901

 1     that.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5902











11 Pages 5902-5907 redacted. Private session.















Page 5908

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, I'll move to the 8th of May, 1999, when

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Djurovic came to see you.  The reason why he came was

18     the group of volunteers that entered Kosovo and Metohija circumventing

19     the regular procedure.  It was the Petrusic family, I believe that was

20     why he came to see you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   On that occasion he informed you about Podujevo and mentioned the

23     Skorpions and the crime that took place there.  Did you know at the time

24     that that group immediately following the incident was returned from

25     Podujevo to Prolom Banja in Serbia?

Page 5909

 1        A.   I don't know whether they were returned, he didn't tell me

 2     anything about that.  General Pavkovic found that group in Prolom Banja,

 3     and I have already discussed that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you said that you issued an order to the

 5     counter-intelligence group from Novi Sad to run checks.  I suppose that

 6     was because you had heard those people originally came from Vojvodina?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to see the

10     65 ter document 4047.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I see the rest of the page?

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I think this is the end of the page.  The only thing at the

14     bottom is security administration.

15        A.   I'm not familiar with this document at all.  There are also some

16     incorrect facts.  For example, if I see correctly, that they were in

17     Bubanj Potok.  They were issued uniforms in Bubanj Potok.  No, no.  As

18     General Pavkovic reported, they were in NATO uniform with SAJ insignia.

19     They could not have been in Bubanj Potok because at that time the

20     reception centre, if that is what is alluded to, was already in Grocka.

21             This is a highly suspicious document.  I don't know of this

22     document in security administration.  It is the 13th of May.  Then the

23     13th of May is security day and no one is in the office that day.  We all

24     attend ceremonies.  I'm quite doubtful as to this document.

25        Q.   But this document does have a ledger number?

Page 5910

 1        A.   This comes from the Supreme Command staff and security

 2     administration.

 3        Q.   I know, but this document is on the list of the Prosecution.  We

 4     received it from them.

 5        A.   I don't know whose it is.  In any case, it never says "security

 6     administration" at the bottom page.  You always have the signature be it

 7     of the head or deputy head of administration.  How they could have been

 8     issued with uniforms in the collection centre for volunteers?  First of

 9     all, we didn't have any NATO uniforms and General Pavkovic saw them

10     immediately upon his arrival in Prolom Banja and they were sporting those

11     uniforms and I informed Sainovic accordingly.

12        Q.   Where did you see that?

13        A.   They went through the barricade in Bubanj Potok and on the

14     28th of March reached Prolom Banja.  They were there awaited by Boca.

15        Q.   No military facility is mentioned?

16        A.   Yes, but we all know that there was mention of the volunteer

17     reception centre in Bubanj Potok.  It says also they were issued with

18     uniforms; they could not have received those at the barricade.

19             The Bubanj Potok location is a toll booth on the highway.  And at

20     Bubanj Potok there was there was a barracks which housed the volunteer

21     reception centre; but soon after it was targeted and destroyed, the

22     centre was moved to Grocka.  And that's where I was, after being

23     re-activated.  After being re-activated on the 27th of April, by that

24     time that centre had been moved to Grocka.

25        Q.   We have witness testimony as to how things developed, but there

Page 5911

 1     is no mention of the Bubanj Potok facility in the document.  In any case,

 2     let's move on, there is a mention of 100 volunteers from Becej and Sid;

 3     do you see it in the first paragraph?

 4        A.   That's not an issue.  Some information was checked pursuant to

 5     the document of the 12th of May.  And Milan Milanovic, aka Mrgud, is

 6     mentioned.  But in our document there is also mention made of

 7     Dalibor Novakovic, whom I don't see here.  So some facts do tally, others

 8     do not.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that this group went to Podujevo?

10        A.   I can't say so in relation to this document.  I testified to

11     information received via Djurovic and what I learned from the

12     intelligence group in Novi Sad.  I also said that there were between 120

13     and 150 people involved, that there were two groups, one of which was

14     formed by Mrgud and so on and so forth.  They also returned two or three

15     days before the report was drafted.  They returned from Kosovo in early

16     May according to that information.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the group that was Podujevo within

18     SAJ had nothing to do with the group of Zivan Chetnik and the other group

19     that was assembled by Goran Hadzic?

20        A.   I don't know, I can't say anything.  That group was assembled

21     subsequently.  In our report, it was stated that they were gathering

22     again to leave for Kosovo and then General Ojdanic told us that that

23     group should be prevented from reaching Kosovo at any cost.  That group

24     was formed subsequently.  Vice-President Sainovic said so when he said

25     that the SAJ seemed to have their own habits in assembling volunteers,

Page 5912

 1     and Rade Markovic said that they were a necessary evil in any war.  I

 2     don't know what is in dispute about that.

 3        Q.   Concerning the two groups, I wanted to cite you in the

 4     Milutinovic case, if I can quickly find that, concerning the Hadzic

 5     group.

 6        A.   Zivan Chetnik was behind the Hadzic group, I believe; right?

 7     Zivan Sokolovacki, aka Chetnik.  Goran Hadzic was behind that group, and

 8     that group was supposed to go to Kosovo.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I don't seem to be able to find

10     it.  Let's move on.

11        Q.   Witness, did you know that in 1991 in Slavonia in order to secure

12     the oil rigs of the oil industry company of Krajina, a unit was formed

13     tasked with providing security of that company?

14        A.   I didn't know that in 1991.  Only when we ran checks on the

15     Skorpions unit did we learn something about that.  There were also

16     articles in the weekly Vreme that dealt with it.  In any case, in 1991 I

17     wasn't aware of that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you they that the Vukovar Brigade in 1991 up to

19     1996 used that unit as necessary as a reserve force of the

20     Army of Republika Srpska?  No, not Republika Srpska but the

21     Army of Republika Srpska Krajina?

22        A.   Which Vukovar Brigade?  What brigade is that?

23        Q.   The Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Did you know that in 1996 when UNPROFOR took over Slavonia,

Page 5913

 1     Baranja, and western Serbia, the unit was disbanded handing over its

 2     weapons and equipment?

 3        A.   I told you I don't know about the Vukovar Brigade and what took

 4     place in 1996.

 5        Q.   I'm asking you whether you know whether the unit was disbanded,

 6     the security unit, handing over their weapons and equipment?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have -- well, I

10     first want to seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness says A, he doesn't know it; B, he's

12     doubtful to its authenticity, as I understand his evidence.  You can have

13     it marked for identification, but I don't think there's a secure enough

14     foundation for it to be received in evidence at the moment.  It will be

15     marked for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00210 MFI,

17     Your Honours.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I think I

19     have already mentioned that this document was received from the

20     Prosecution.  We merely made use of it.

21        Q.   Witness, am I right in saying that only after the war, perhaps in

22     2000 or 2001, it was learned for the first time that this unit may have

23     committed crimes before 1999?

24        A.   No.  On the 17th of May, we briefed President Milosevic, as I've

25     explained.  The procedure was initiated by Natasa Kandic or the issue was

Page 5914

 1     raised by her, and then a trial ensued in Prokuplje.  Some of them

 2     were -- some of them were provisionally released and issuing threats to

 3     the president of the court in Belgrade.

 4        Q.   You did not understand my question.  I'm not talking about

 5     Podujevo.  Only after the war, after 1999, it was learned that they may

 6     have committed crimes prior to 1999.

 7        A.   I don't know that.  I know that there were subjects of some

 8     articles of the weekly Vreme, but I don't know when that was.

 9        Q.   That was after the end of the war in 1999.

10        A.   Even before that, the Vreme wrote on paramilitary formations and

11     I believe they were mentioned.

12        Q.   In 1999, did you have any information?

13        A.   I've already said I did not.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please --

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Can we be clear as to what unit you are speaking

16     of?  There's a whole section of transcript there and nobody has

17     identified the unit.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, we -- what we have been discussing throughout here

20     referring to the period from the 8th of May, 1999, when

21     Djuric [as interpreted] came to see you, we were discussing the Skorpions

22     unit; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up

Page 5915

 1     document -- Defence document D003-1945.  What I would like now to be

 2     shown is page 8718, line 15.

 3        Q.   Witness, in response to a question whether you knew or had any

 4     information that some members of the Skorpions also been deployed in

 5     Bosnia, you said, No, we had no such information.

 6        A.   Well, first of all, I can't speak or read English, and I don't

 7     know why you're showing me this.  Could you please translate?  Could you

 8     tell me what the question was?

 9        Q.   Well, the question was whether you knew or had any information

10     that the Skorpions had also been deployed in Bosnia, or engaged in

11     Bosnia, you said, No, we did not have that information.

12        A.   Well, this is probably a reference to my service up until the

13     8th of May, 1992, and up until that period, no.

14        Q.   Well, when did the operations in Bosnia start?

15        A.   Well, we consider them to have begun in early May, 1992.

16        Q.   Yes.  So that's when the operations began?

17        A.   Well, I had no information that the Skorpions had been deployed

18     in Bosnia.  Up until then they hadn't.  And at that point, I retired.

19        Q.   But here the question is about some information.  When did you

20     get some information about their engagement in Bosnia?

21        A.   Well, I read about it in the Vreme Weekly while I was still

22     retired, and this was an article about the paramilitary unit.

23        Q.   Do you know, and based on the information that you received from

24     the counter-intelligence group, do you know that among the members of

25     that unit, which had been disbanded in 1996, 20 to 30 members of that old

Page 5916

 1     unit had been sent to Podujevo?

 2        A.   Well, there was no such information as to the new and old

 3     membership of the unit.

 4        Q.   Do you know that an on-site investigation was conducted in

 5     Podujevo immediately following the incident?  In other words, as early as

 6     the 30th of March and that this investigation was done by an

 7     investigating judge of the district court?

 8        A.   Well, I can tell you what I learned subsequently.  I can't tell

 9     you anything about what I knew at the time.  What I learned was that

10     those bodies had been there for three days on a pile in the yard because

11     allegedly the investigating judge wasn't able to come to the site because

12     of the roads.  The situation on the roads.  This is what I've learned

13     from -- after reading the documents from the proceedings, the court

14     proceedings.

15        Q.   Do you know that an investigating -- investigation was conducted?

16        A.   Well, yes, after three days.

17        Q.   Do you know that a criminal complaint was submitted and that some

18     individuals were indicted?

19        A.   I don't know that, but I know that the trace evidence was not

20     fixated on the spot.  It wasn't established exactly who had opened fire,

21     who had killed them.

22        Q.   Well, let me ask you this:  Once a criminal complaint is

23     submitted and when an investigation is initiated, can the investigating

24     judge -- can any -- can the police have any influence on the further

25     proceedings?

Page 5917

 1        A.   Well, in some cases, yes, if they find or learn any new

 2     information.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And once the court determines that some individuals

 4     should be remanded in custody, then that is the sole decision of the

 5     court?

 6        A.   Yes, that was the sole decision of the investigating judge.

 7        Q.   In that phase of the proceedings; correct?

 8             I need to repeat my question because I believe that the -- that

 9     your answer was not recorded fully.

10             My question was:  When the police submits a criminal report and

11     once an investigation is initiated, am I correct that they can no longer

12     have any say in the further proceedings?  Could you please answer.

13        A.   I said that they could not influence the further proceedings.

14     However, if they found any new information in the course of their

15     operative work, then they could submit that information to the Prosecutor

16     or the investigating judge.

17        Q.   Thank you.  General, I would now like to move on to the meeting

18     held on the 17th of May, 1999.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have

20     Exhibit D003-2495 on the screens.  Paragraph 64.  This should be page 16

21     in the B/C/S version.

22        Q.   Would you please read paragraph 64, General.

23        A.   Well, you keep asking me to read things and at one point I was

24     told that I wasn't just a puppet reading things, but okay let me read it.

25     It says here:

Page 5918

 1             "The minister of Internal Affairs, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, was not

 2     present.  His absence was strange and was not explained.  There were five

 3     generals from the Army of Yugoslavia and not a single general from the

 4     police in command of forces in Kosovo.  Holding such a meeting was a

 5     normal thing, but not everybody best versed in the situation on the

 6     ground was there.  Stevanovic, Lukic, and particularly Stojiljkovic

 7     should have been there as well."

 8        Q.   Thank you, General.  Is your statement and as you recollect the

 9     events from the time, is it correctly relayed in this paragraph?

10        A.   Well, I think, yes, more or less.  Whether General Djordjevic was

11     mentioned, I don't know.  You also have a statement that is also in

12     evidence here, notes that I took during this meeting, and that would be

13     the most accurate information.

14        Q.   And thereto it says that General Djordjevic was not present;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And all the information that you did receive regarding that, you

18     received from Rade Markovic?

19        A.   I don't know which information you are referring to.

20        Q.   Well, when you said about "what he had reported?"

21        A.   Well, he wasn't speaking to me, he was just answering Milosevic's

22     question.

23        Q.   I apologise, I was just quoting what was mentioned in your notes.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]  I would just now like to --

25     please bear with me a moment, can we pull up Exhibit P884.

Page 5919

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Are these notes already an exhibit?

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's Exhibit P884.  I've

 3     already said that.  I apologise, it would appear that my request was not

 4     entered here.  Could we please see Exhibit P884.  But I see now that it

 5     has been recorded.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  My question is about the document that is on the

 7     screen.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That was the 2006/2007 statement,

 9     paragraph 64.  This is the statement that the witness provided to the

10     OTP.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Is it in evidence?

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, it was only on the

13     Defence 65 ter list to be used during the questioning of this witness.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  You are not tendering it.  Thank you.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Witness, I have a question for you relating to the very beginning

17     of your notes.  You said that both you and Mr. Pavkovic submitted written

18     reports and that what you did in fact in the meeting was read them out.

19             Now, I would like to know whether you had ever seen your written

20     report after this briefing?  And I'm referring to the proceedings before

21     this Tribunal, not anything else.

22        A.   Well, do you mean the report from the meeting of the 17th of May?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did you have occasion to be shown the report that was submitted

Page 5920

 1     by Pavkovic on the 17th of May?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you this now, since you had the report, the report was

 4     written if I understood you correctly, you said that there was no need

 5     for you to write the contents of this report; however, at the very

 6     beginning here, I see in paragraph 1 General Pavkovic then submitted his

 7     report and then colon and it says, There is no problem with the Petrusic

 8     group.  There is an error here.

 9             Now, could you tell me what Pavkovic actually reported on when

10     you wrote this down in your notes?

11        A.   Well, I don't know what I wrote down in my notes, I'm not sure.

12     I just para-phrased some of his overall -- some portions ever his overall

13     briefing.  This is what I noted in my notebook, and he didn't know what

14     it was that I wrote down.  What I wrote down was just the parts that I --

15     the portions that I considered interest -- of interest.

16        Q.   I think you misunderstood me.  I believe that you said that you

17     didn't want to make any notes on his report because the report was in

18     written form and there was no need for it; but in addition to that and in

19     spite of that, the first sentence of your notes here is that

20     General Pavkovic gave his report and then:

21             "There is no problem with the Petrusic ..." -- there is an error

22     here, it says the "Petronijevic group."

23             So could you tell us then, What is it that he said about this?

24        A.   You mean what he said about the Petrusic group?  Well, what he

25     said was that they were disarmed, that they were taken in custody, that

Page 5921

 1     Petrusic and Orasanin were arrested, and that the entire group was

 2     disbanded, and that currently there was an operative investigation

 3     underway as to what they had committed, what acts they had committed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you just one more thing:  Were the

 5     proceedings against them conducted in the Pristina Corps or in Belgrade?

 6        A.   No, it was done in Belgrade, and I can explain why this was so.

 7     The operatives from the RDB were supposed to take part in the

 8     investigation because they insisted that these were French agents.  And

 9     when they were arrested, Rade Markovic was informed an operative came and

10     said that he would bring some material the next day and then for an

11     entire month after that there was no one from the RDB attending those

12     proceedings.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have page

15     K061-7039 we need the second page, second paragraph, in the English

16     version.

17        Q.   General --

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we just scroll this down a

19     bit, please.

20        Q.   Could you please take a look at this and then further on up to

21     there you commented the proceedings.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] But then if we can just get the

23     next page in the B/C/S version but just after a moment, once the witness

24     has been able to read this.

25             Could we now have the next page.

Page 5922

 1             MR. STAMP:  This is a record of his notes which flows from page

 2     to page, and he can't even see a whole page here.  Perhaps he could be

 3     shown the binder that he has here with his notes, and I think it's

 4     document 91 in the binder that he has.  If it would be more practical for

 5     him to look at the document that way.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 7             MR. STAMP:  It's tab 91.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you want to look at your -- the photocopy of

 9     your notes that are there, General, rather than trying to follow them on

10     the screen?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there's no need for that, I

12     think I can still recollect what it was about the question.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Well, what I wanted to ask you was to tell me and explain the

15     remarks here by Mr. Milosevic.  So you commented the questions of the

16     Prosecution up to there and then we stopped there.  You didn't comment

17     anything on Milosevic's words at that meeting, so now I would like to ask

18     you to tell us about it.

19        A.   Well, after it was determined that the Petrusic group had been

20     resolved or dissolved, that Petrusic had been arrested, Milosevic said

21     that we should be careful lest someone else was infiltrated, the new

22     group that we would have to deal with.  And in connection with that, he

23     demanded that additional security measures be taken on the borders with

24     Republika Srpska because we had information that there was a group -- the

25     Vukovi from the Drina, if I'm not mistaken that was their name.  The

Page 5923

 1     Wolves from the Drina.  And there was also a portion that I did not

 2     mention during my testimony there, because the questions -- there were no

 3     questions about it.

 4             And that was this:  Both General Pavkovic and General Ojdanic,

 5     and Vice-President Sainovic agreed with them, they all ask that a special

 6     state commission be established in Belgrade which would go to Kosovo and

 7     investigate the events mentioned and discussed in the meeting.

 8             And what struck me, and I testified about this earlier, and once

 9     we went out of the meeting I told my colleagues that this was really

10     unusual that a -- that this topic of creating a special committee for

11     Kosovo was completely obviated, and that's why we came to the meeting.

12             Following this, President Milosevic put the stress on the need

13     for us to meet regularly because apparently there was not proper or

14     sufficient communication and cooperation between the RDB and the military

15     services.  Partly for that reason but especially because of what

16     General Pavkovic said and that was the refusal to create a

17     Joint Commission to investigate those 597 bodies where it was necessary

18     to establish in whose area of responsibility they had been found.

19             And then he also had an objection regarding a recent statement by

20     the spokesman.  This was a TV appearance where the MUP claimed that these

21     were only small groups of individuals and that those groups had already

22     been dealt with.  And in that sense, he remarked that one should be

23     careful lest NATO concluded that they must come to Kosovo to deal with

24     these groups.  Well, in brief, this is what it was, I can tell you a bit

25     more but.

Page 5924

 1        Q.   Tell me that last paragraph in your report that Jugoslav

 2     Petrusic, on the basis of the -- it says VK positions here was held in

 3     custody for three days?

 4        A.   Well, that's precisely what I've been saying.  I took him into

 5     custody, him and Orasanin too, and I had the authority to do that

 6     pursuant to the law on holding people into custody up to 72 hours in

 7     emergency situations; however, in war this was extended to a period of 30

 8     days.  And because of that, I said that he was incarcerated for three

 9     days or detained for three days.  And I said that the next day on the

10     18th an operative of the state security would arrive, but he -- and he

11     did arrive but without any documents.  And they thought that it was a

12     French agent so they had to bring him proof of that.

13             However, over the next month, which was how long the people were

14     held in detention, they never appeared again.  And Rade Markovic -- we

15     couldn't contact Rade Markovic for that meeting, and I've already

16     explained all that.

17        Q.   Yes, that is the part that I was interested in, but let me say

18     this:  I've read a lot of your statements, but I don't know where - or

19     could you help me out here and say if I'm right or not - I don't remember

20     that you -- or -- I remember that you were dissatisfied because the state

21     security DB and Rade Markovic failed to inform you about the operative

22     work linked to that group.

23        A.   Well, that's what I'm saying now as well.  They had the

24     assertions about the French agent and the army.  And we pulled the people

25     out because of the unlawful way in which they went to Kosovo.  An

Page 5925

 1     operative arrived and he said, I'll bring it in tomorrow.  But he never

 2     brought in any further documents, and that's what I'm saying now.

 3        Q.   Thank you, let's not waste time on that.  It's not that relevant.

 4     Let's move on.  Immediately after that meeting with the president of the

 5     Republic of Yugoslavia, you were given the assignment from the

 6     Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command to tour the 3rd Army.  And on the

 7     1st of June, you went off with Colonel Gajic to carry out that

 8     assignment.

 9             Tell me, now, please, before you -- was it standard practice,

10     before you went -- was it standard practice to tour the units in the

11     territory and so that there was supervision and control before you?  Was

12     this standard practice before?

13        A.   Well, it should have been standard practice, but I don't know of

14     anybody going -- any deputy or team going to inspect and tour the units.

15     But I do know that General Geza for the first of May was down there; he

16     was in Kosovo after learning of the Petrusic group to see where they

17     were, what the situation was, because there was no information coming in.

18             So General Geza as the chief of the sector and department was in

19     Kosovo on the 1st of May.  But he didn't tour the operatives there.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But what I'm asking is this:  Did the Supreme Command

21     staff send teams out in the field during the war to tour the units and

22     among others the 3rd Army and the Pristina Corps before you?  Do you know

23     anything about that; was that the case or not?

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 5926

 1        A.   I know that General Velickovic was there; he was the assistant to

 2     the air force.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you know at that time, we are talking about

 4     that time, that the practice was applied whereby the

 5     Ministry of the Interior would send their people to tour people in Serbia

 6     and people in Kosovo and Metohija, to pay visits to them?

 7        A.   I don't know about that, but I assume that they did something

 8     similar, yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you arrived upon the invitation of

10     General Pavkovic.  You came to attend the meeting in the evening of the

11     1st of June with Colonel Stojanovic, as you told us; do you know in what

12     way General Djordjevic, as you say, arrived to attend that meeting?  How

13     did he come to be there?

14        A.   When I arrived, I already found the generals from MUP there.

15     They were already there before me.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you said that General Obrad Stevanovic was also

17     there.  Am I right in saying that both of them were assistants to the

18     minister of the interior at that time, that that's what they were?

19        A.   Yes, from the documents that you showed me earlier on, I saw that

20     that was the case and I knew about it as well.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you know that General Djordjevic was head of

22     the public security sector and that during the war his seat was in

23     Belgrade?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to ask you something now with respect to

Page 5927

 1     where you sat.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And for me to do that, may I have

 3     D003-2495, paragraph 80, pulled up, please.  That's for the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   General, I'm not going to ask you to read anything any more.

 5     It's a long text.  You can just agree with me or not.  Just tell me

 6     whether that's what it says.  Don't worry.  So I'll skip the part where

 7     you said hello to the various individuals and who you said hello to.

 8        A.   With Lukic.

 9        Q.   Yes, yes.  But that's not the portion that I want to refer to.

10     I'll just find the excerpt that I wish to read out.  It says:

11             "We sat down to the table, the generals of MUP, apart from Lukic,

12     were at one end of the table with their backs facing the door.  The

13     generals of the VJ were sitting on the opposite -- at the opposite end of

14     the table.  They chatted a bit, but it was clear that they were waiting

15     for the arrival of two key men.  When Sainovic and Zoran Andjelkovic

16     entered, everybody stood up.  The small talk stopped, and the atmosphere

17     became more serious."

18        A.   What's your question?  I know all this.  What's your question?

19        Q.   "I gained the impression," -- it goes on to say -- "that

20     Andjelkovic was following him carefully.  There was some joking with him

21     but not with Sainovic.  Sainovic sat at the head of the table --"

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, do you have a question?

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I started reading too far up,

24     and I've just come to the portion that I would like to address, just to

25     give you the general context.

Page 5928

 1        Q.   As I was saying, "Sainovic sat at the head of the table, and

 2     Andjelkovic sat to one side with the MUP generals.  Lukic sat at the

 3     other end opposite Sainovic."

 4             Do you agree that that was the seating arrangement?

 5        A.   Well, you needn't have read it all out.  I know where we all sat.

 6        Q.   Well, was that seating arrangements as I've just read it out?

 7        A.   Yes, but it doesn't say who sat next to whom, it says that Lukic

 8     was on the opposite end across from the table; so the MUP generals here,

 9     Sainovic was here, Lukic was here, and the army generals were sitting

10     this end.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And am I right, General, saying that the meeting just

12     lasted for 20 minutes?

13        A.   Yes, roughly 20 minutes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'm interested in learning something else,

15     General.  As far as Colonel Stojanovic is concerned, I think you said

16     that for a time he told you that he had attended meetings of the

17     Joint Command in 1998, but that later on he ceased to attend those

18     meetings for the reasons that you mentioned.

19             So now may we take a look at paragraph 84 of your statement, the

20     statement that you gave to the Prosecutor.

21        A.   When?

22        Q.   We'll come to that in just a moment.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 84.

24        Q.   General, now, as to the seating arrangements, you just indicated

25     where the people sat by gestures.  Could you put it into words, please?

Page 5929

 1        A.   Just the way you read it out.  I only said that had you asked me,

 2     I would have told you the same.  This means on the long end of the table

 3     the opposite end there were the MUP generals with Andjelkovic who was the

 4     first man next to Sainovic; and on the opposite side of the table, across

 5     from them, were the army generals with Colonel Stojanovic.  And General

 6     Lukic was at the head of the table, if I can call it that.  That is to

 7     say, opposite to where Sainovic was sitting.  They were sitting at two

 8     ends of the table.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 84 --

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Has that been pulled up?

11        Q.   It says that Colonel Dimitrijevic told you that he received --

12        A.   Do you mean Colonel Stojanovic?

13        Q.   Yes, what did I say?

14        A.   You said Dimitrijevic.

15        Q.   Anyway, that he received indirect information and that he

16     informed Colonel Dimitrijevic?

17        A.   You mean General Dimitrijevic, head of the administration?

18        Q.   Yes, that is correct, thank you.

19             And now I have one more question, or rather two more questions.

20     Do you allow for the possibility that on the 7th of June, you saw

21     General Djordjevic in Pristina and not on the 1st as you told us during

22     your testimony?

23        A.   No, on the 7th of June, none of the MUP generals or members of

24     the MUP did I see.  I saw none of them.  And after this meeting on the

25     1st of June, I didn't see anybody from the MUP again.  I was with the

Page 5930

 1     security organs throughout, so I saw no one from the MUP.  And on the

 2     7th of June we completed our tour and we entered our final -- we went for

 3     a final briefing with the head of the Pristina Corps.

 4        Q.   I'd like to put to you part of Stojanovic's statement to show you

 5     that.  I don't know whether anybody has shown you his statement.

 6        A.   No.  They haven't.  But you can show me, you can present me with

 7     it.  Go ahead, I know what it's about.

 8        Q.   Well, if you know --

 9        A.   Well, I suppose he changed something just like other security

10     organs with whom certain people contacted later on.  But ask me directly.

11     What I said is true and correct, and I stand it by it with my honour as

12     an officer.  I state that I said -- told you the truth.  Now, what

13     Stojanovic said later, I really don't know.  But I heard from people who

14     were in contact with him that he denied ever -- that General Djordjevic

15     ever attended the meeting.  Was that your question?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   So my answer is that I heard from other people that he changed

18     his statement.  That's what I have to say.  I told the truth, and I stand

19     by that.  Now, what Stojanovic was saying, you can bring him in and I can

20     have -- I can confront him.

21        Q.   No, there's no confrontation here.  Anyway, General, during your

22     testimony, during the Examination in Chief by the Prosecutor, I think you

23     said that you gave your statement to the Prosecution as a suspect in 2000

24     and something.  Could you remind me of the date, of the year?

25        A.   I don't know what my status is now, whether I'm a suspect or not.

Page 5931

 1     Nobody told me anything.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is:  Did you ever receive a decision

 3     by the Prosecutor saying that you were no longer a suspect?

 4        A.   No.  And it's not a problem for me.  I can testify as a suspect,

 5     as an accused, and as a free man, because there's only one truth and it

 6     is what I'm telling you.  I'm telling you the truth.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, for answering

 8     my questions and for all your patience and time.

 9             And thank you, Your Honours, for your patience as well.

10             That completes my examination.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Stamp, do you re-examine?

13             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

15        Q.   General, I have a few questions for you, sir, it's coming to an

16     end, but I'm going to ask you to be patient with me as well.

17             I think you said at one stage that you had heard or read of

18     information in respect to paramilitaries and the Skorpions before 1999.

19     I'd like to ask you, did your investigations in May 1999 indicate whether

20     or not there were security checks or adequate security checks of the

21     members who joined the Skorpions and who were sent to Podujevo in

22     March 1999?

23        A.   During my testimony I said that the security organs in

24     Novi Sad -- that the counter-intelligence group did not carry out

25     security checks for the persons who were in the Skorpions individually.

Page 5932

 1     Whether they gave a general assessment as to whether they had took part

 2     in various theatres of operation in 1991, 1992, and later on in Bosnia,

 3     it was just an overall estimate.  But no individual security checks were

 4     carried out, and the conclusion was that there were certain individuals

 5     who had a criminal past.  And that was the information on the

 6     12th of May, 1999.

 7        Q.   I'd like to go back to something that was read to you from your

 8     statement and your answer and ask you if you could elaborate a little bit

 9     on your answer.  And I'm going to page 45 of the transcript.  And

10     paragraph 4 of your statement was read, and it's -- passage is not very

11     long, so I'll just read it again:

12             "The Minister of Internal Affairs Vlajko Stojiljkovic was not

13     present.  His absence was strange and was not explained.  There were five

14     generals from the army and not a single general for the police, of the

15     police of the command of forces in Kosovo.  Holding such a meeting was a

16     normal thing but not everybody was versed in the situation on the ground

17     was there.  Stevanovic, Lukic, and particularly Stojiljkovic should have

18     been there as well."

19             And you were asked if that correctly related or relayed what is

20     in the paragraph.  And your answer was:

21             "Well, I think, yes, more or less.  Whether General Djordjevic

22     was mentioned, I don't know."

23             Could you explain what your answer is?  You said:

24             "... yes, more or less.  Whether General Djordjevic was

25     mentioned, I don't know."

Page 5933

 1        A.   First of all, well, your quotation was a rather long one.  I

 2     think you mentioned that the meeting that was being held in Kosovo, well,

 3     it wasn't in Kosovo, it was in Belgrade that the meeting was held.

 4             MR. STAMP:  I'm sorry, could we just go to paragraph 64 of

 5     D003-2495 so he could look at it.

 6        Q.   I think it's there in front of you.  And that was a meeting in

 7     Belgrade, you are correct.  And if you look at it you see it says:

 8             "Holding such a meeting was a normal thing to do but not

 9     everybody best versed in the situation on the ground was there.

10     Stevanovic, Lukic, and particularly Stojiljkovic should have been

11     there ..."

12             That is what it said in statement.  When you were asked about

13     that statement, your answer was, this statement correctly relayed your

14     understanding more or less, and then you went on to say whether

15     General Djordjevic was mentioned, "I don't know."  That's what I wanted

16     you to explain, if you can.

17        A.   So that means in the enumeration of all those people who were

18     supposed to be present, since the situation in Kosovo was being

19     discussed, if I failed to mention General Djordjevic, he should have been

20     there too because he had -- he was the number 2 man in MUP.

21             So just so that it wouldn't appear that Djordjevic should not

22     have been there but the other two generals should have been.  He should

23     have been there too, and he -- even if I failed or omitted to mention

24     him.  So all three generals should have been there at the meeting, were

25     supposed to be there at the meeting.  And the minister.  Plus the

Page 5934

 1     minister.  Oh, and also as the Defence -- if the Defence says that he

 2     wasn't at his work and that his seat was in Belgrade, I see no reason for

 3     him not being at the meeting.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If we could move on.  In respect to Stojanovic, you

 5     said when you were asked about his testimony that the date of the

 6     Joint Command meeting in Pristina was the 7th, and whether or not

 7     Djordjevic was there, you said that he "changed something, just like

 8     other security organs when certain persons contacted him."

 9             And if you can explain what that means, that he changed "like

10     other security organs" and also what you mean when you say "when concern

11     persons contacted him."

12             And if you need to go into private session, we could ask leave of

13     the Court.

14        A.   Let me first put you right.  It's not the meeting of the 7th --

15     of the Joint Command of the 7th of June.  It's the meeting of the

16     1st of June.  You mentioned the 7th of June, I believe.

17        Q.   Yes, I think it was being suggested that the meeting might have

18     been the 7th.  I think you were asked whether or not you allow that it

19     was possible that it was the 7th of June, and --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have to object.  My learned

22     friend Mr. Stamp is wrongly para-phrasing.  I wasn't speaking of the

23     Joint Command meeting, of a Joint Command meeting, but I said that the

24     general, the witness, might have met General Djordjevic on the

25     7th of June without the mention of any meeting.

Page 5935

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

 3        Q.   You said in respect of the questions you were asked about

 4     Stojanovic's evidence, that Stojanovic changed something just like other

 5     security organs when certain people contacted him.  Can you elaborate, if

 6     you can, and as I indicated we could ask, if you need to, the Court the

 7     leave to go into private session.

 8        A.   Yes, private session would be good.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5936











11 Page 5936 redacted. Private session.















Page 5937

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 7             MR. STAMP:

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

20             MR. STAMP:  And I assure you, General, that that will be redacted

21     from the public record.  My apologies.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5938

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MR. STAMP:

18        Q.   There are one or two items that I would just like to clarify.

19     You said in answer --

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             MR. STAMP:  I am sorry.

22        Q.   In answer to a couple of questions by learned counsel, you said

23     that where you mentioned Vlatkovic, a member of the SPS, you were talking

24     about Matkovic, and is that Dusan Matkovic who was a business executive

25     you were speaking of?

Page 5939

 1        A.   Mr. Matkovic, I don't know whether he was an entrepreneur or came

 2     from the area of business.  He was director of Sartid and a minister in

 3     the government.  I mentioned Vlatkovic, but that was my mistake.  I

 4     didn't seem to be able to recall that it was actually Mr. Matkovic

 5     throughout that answer.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So just to be absolutely clear.  When you said

 7     earlier that Vlatkovic from the SPS was also a member of the

 8     Joint Command, according to what Stojanovic told you, you meant that

 9     Matkovic, Dusan Matkovic from the SPS, was also a member of the

10     Joint Command according to what Stojanovic told you; is that correct?

11        A.   No, Stojanovic didn't tell me anything.  Oh, yes, sorry, you mean

12     the discussion from 1998?  Yes, you are right.  It all had to do with

13     Matkovic.

14        Q.   Thank you.  There was another item.  You were asked a couple of

15     questions about --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I don't have an objection.  I only

18     have a correction for the transcript.  Line where it says "member of the

19     SPS command" it should be the "Joint Command."  Now it's fine, thank you.

20             MR. STAMP:

21        Q.   During yesterday's questioning, and it was at 5841, line 25, of

22     the transcript, you were asked some questions about the

23     Federal Ministry of Defence and an organisation that was subordinate to

24     them.  And there might be some confusion from the way the questions were

25     asked, whether or not you are saying that the military territorial

Page 5940

 1     department, the Pristina military territorial department was completely

 2     independent.  So I want to ask you, Was the Pristina military territorial

 3     department subordinate to the 3rd Army or the Pristina Corps, or was it a

 4     complete independent organisation?

 5        A.   I'm not clear about what you are asking me.  First of all, you

 6     are now discussing the Ministry of Defence, and there may be some

 7     confusion about the term.  Perhaps Defence could assist.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to

10     intercede, but I believe Mr. Stamp para-phrased his words the way the

11     witness failed to understand.  It would be best to show him that part of

12     the transcript and what his response was, although I know what it was,

13     but that may be the best way to clarify it.

14             The way Mr. Stamp put it and the way we heard it in the B/C/S may

15     have been unclear to the witness.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  You are going to have to make more

17     clear what it is --

18             MR. STAMP:  Yes, yes.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  -- that you are raising, Mr. Stamp.

20             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm trying to just find the

21     transcript reference.

22        Q.   You were shown a document and you were asked about the addressees

23     of the document, and one addressee at number 5 on the document was the

24     military district of Pristina, and then you were asked this question and

25     this is at 5841 from line 24:

Page 5941

 1             "Q. Yesterday we didn't touch upon the topic of organisation of

 2     the Federal Ministry of Defence in the territory of the FRY.  How did

 3     they function territorially speaking?  Were they completely independent,

 4     in an independent formation answerable only to the Secretariat for

 5     National Defence, or did they have any links to the army?  I mean

 6     specifically the civil protection and civil defence."

 7             And you said, They were fully under the Ministry of Defence.

 8             On my second reading of this I think it is even clearer, but I

 9     just want to ask you firstly:  The military district of Pristina, was

10     that subordinate to the 3rd Army, or not?

11        A.   I'm not sure about the transcript.  It seems that some terms may

12     have been mixed up.  The military district was subordinated to the

13     3rd Army Command in the military district of Nis and Pristina; they were

14     army elements.  There was also some discussion about whether

15     Ministry of Defence had its own elements subordinated directly to it,

16     such as simply protection, and then I said, Yes.

17        Q.   So your answer --

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] In my question there was no

20     mention of any military districts.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, I think you'll have to leave

22     Mr. Stamp to put his questions in re-examination.  Thank you.

23             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   So you were saying just civil protection and civil defence were

25     within the ambit of the Ministry of Defence?

Page 5942

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know whether or not the Ministry -- sorry.  Do you know

 3     whether or not, in the course of combat activities, the VJ could deploy

 4     civil defence or civil protection units?

 5        A.   The army could not deploy civil defence and civilian protection

 6     units.  It was under the competence of the Ministry of Defence.  As to

 7     whether they could use any of their facilities, well, yes, if that was

 8     not in contravention to the international laws of war.  One cannot use

 9     schools, health institutions, and other civilian facilities for military

10     purposes.

11        Q.   Very well.

12        A.   Hence, the Ministry of Defence deals with the use of such

13     facilities, but the army cannot make use of those facilities which cannot

14     be used for military purposes under international law.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I propose now to move to another topic.

17     I'm now wondering if this would be a convenient moment.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  You would like the break now?

19             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the second break now.  We resume at

21     1.00.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 5943

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   You said, General, that - and here I'm speaking at 5833 of the

 4     transcript yesterday - that on the 8th of June when you returned from

 5     tour in Kosovo, you wrote the information you had about the crimes and

 6     what was going on and this was handed over to the chief of administration

 7     Geza Farkas, and he handed that over to the Chief of the General Staff,

 8     and he handed it in turn to Slobodan Milosevic.

 9             Firstly, the crimes that you wrote down, were these VJ crimes, or

10     crimes committed by members of the VJ; crimes committed by members of the

11     MUP; or both?  All the crimes you heard about.

12        A.   No, it only has to do with the crimes committed by VJ members.

13        Q.   And when you said you wrote it down on a piece of paper, what do

14     you mean?

15        A.   I wrote a report --

16        Q.   I see.

17        A.   -- following our visit.  And we also drew up a table in terms of

18     types of crime; place, and location of crime; as well as the names of the

19     perpetrators, in case we knew who the perpetrators were, otherwise they

20     were unidentified.  I remember there were 42 items in total in that table

21     with over 100 persons included.

22        Q.   What happened to that report, do you know?

23        A.   I don't.  I don't know where it ended up or where it could be

24     found.  I know there were attempts at finding it, but I don't think it

25     was.  Although, I see no reason for anyone to hide it.  I think most of

Page 5944

 1     the cases were dealt with by the Prosecutor's Office of the army in any

 2     case.

 3             After we returned from Kosovo and after submitting the report,

 4     General Ojdanic summoned the representatives of legal organs, i.e., the

 5     Court's and Prosecutor's Offices, and ordered them to deal with those

 6     cases specifically.  I know there was an advisory or consultancy meeting

 7     of sorts with the representatives of those organs.

 8        Q.   Yes, I see.  But anyway, in respect to this report, you said that

 9     that you know there were attempts to finding it.  And by that do you mean

10     that at some point in time it disappeared?

11        A.   I don't know.  I can't say it disappeared.  It wasn't found.  I

12     inquired with the chief of the security administration.  It would have

13     been natural to have a copy kept at the administration, a true copy or an

14     original; but it turned out that nothing was left in the administration.

15     As for where it could be found subsequently, I don't know.

16        Q.   If we could move on to something else.

17             You said at -- you said yesterday, and this is, Your Honours,

18     page 5848 of the transcript -- sorry, 5849, that you "... know about the

19     order whereby the command of the 3rd Army ordered for weapons to be

20     distributed only to Serbs within the ranks."

21             Having regard to your testimony there, I'd like to show you a

22     document.

23             MR. STAMP:  Can we have a look at document with

24     65 ter number 01415.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to react.  I

Page 5945

 1     would kindly ask Mr. Stamp to show us that part of the transcript rather

 2     than para-phrasing it, and I'm pretty positive that the witness said that

 3     while he was going through the documents given to him by the OTP that it

 4     is there that he saw it.  If we leave this question and the answer that

 5     is about to come, it will appear that he knew of that while touring the

 6     3rd Army.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  You were asked, Mr. Stamp, to read the passage.

 8             MR. STAMP:  And I --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. STAMP:  Sorry.  And I will, Your Honour, if the Court would

11     prefer if I did.  But I'll just have to find it.  5849.  Thank you.

12     From -- shall we go from line 1:

13             "May I remind you ..." -- this is the general's answer --

14     "... may I remind you that I know about the order whereby the command of

15     the 3rd Army ordered for weapons to be distributed only to Serbs within

16     the ranks, so I cannot deny that there had been some obstruction dating

17     from 1991, 1992, in terms of including Albanians into the rank of

18     conscripts and the others."

19             There might be an issue here about the date, Your Honours, but

20     the General was not referring to where he saw the order, he just said

21     that he knows about the order, and I just want to show him the order and

22     ask him if this is one such order.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

24             MR. STAMP:

25        Q.   You see the order in front of you?  Before we go back to the --

Page 5946

 1     before we look more carefully at the first page, I see here it is from

 2     the Pristina Corps Command dated the 26th of June, 1998.

 3             MR. STAMP:  And if we could look briefly at the stamp and

 4     insignia block at the end or at the second page of the document.  In

 5     B/C/S.  You only need to move the B/C/S one.

 6        Q.   Is this a document from General Pavkovic when he was the

 7     commander of the Pristina Corps?

 8        A.   What is your question?

 9        Q.   Can you say whether or not this is a document of General Pavkovic

10     at the time when he was commander of the Pristina Corps?

11        A.   Yes, I can see that.  I saw these documents for the first time

12     when given by the Prosecution.  Before that, I had no knowledge of it

13     since I was retired.  I only wanted to use it as an example in the course

14     of my answer on the formation of the separate military territorial

15     detachment of Pristina which was uniform in terms of ethnic makeup.  This

16     was only by way of an illustration.  I think this was an exhibit in some

17     of the previous cases?

18             MR. STAMP:  Could we return to the first page and the second

19     paragraph in section 3.

20        Q.   I see it says here, Call up military conscripts in small groups

21     to the army barracks or organised distribution and issue of weapons in

22     Serbian or Montenegrin villages.

23             So having regard to that, General, I take it from your previous

24     answer that this is one such document that you are speaking about by way

25     of illustration?

Page 5947

 1        A.   Yes, but I don't see any particular link to the other point or

 2     item 2.  What attracts one's attention is probably the fact that weapons

 3     are being distributed to the reserve force.  First all, I'd like to say

 4     this was no exception in the 90s or the 80s.  To be specific, some units

 5     in border areas, whether it was Slovenia or the south of Serbian Kosovo,

 6     they were deemed the highest level of urgency or readiness units.  They

 7     were attached, or rather, distributed weapons but only to the reserve

 8     forces in border areas.  This was 1998 in June.

 9             During that time in Kosovo, the terrorist forces were quite

10     active and fully developed.  Because of that situation, since there were

11     cases of kidnappings, murders, and attacks, the decision was made to have

12     that reserve force issued with weapons.

13        Q.   And the indication here was to issue the weapons in Serbian and

14     Montenegrin villages.  Very well.  Thanks for your answer.

15             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could I tender this document and ask

16     that it be received in evidence.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P00901.

19             MR. STAMP:

20        Q.   And you were shown, General - and we are moving on, and I try to

21     move quickly.  You were shown, General, a document, D104 in respect to

22     the Joint Command.

23             MR. STAMP:  But before we come to that, could we look at

24     65 ter 00939.  This is a -- this is the minutes of the collegium of the

25     21st of January.  You were shown quite a few of those -- minutes of the

Page 5948

 1     collegium minutes meetings.

 2             Could we move to page 10, paragraph 2, of these minutes.  This is

 3     page -- sorry page 11 English, bottom of page 11 English, which is the

 4     bottom of page 9 in the B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was not

 7     on the notification list of the Prosecutor.  It was only put on the list

 8     at 10.00 a.m. this morning.  I'm a bit upset with Mr. Stamp because I did

 9     propose that all documents of the same format be accepted; but as regards

10     any military documents of that nature, it seems he was not willing to do

11     so.  We are four days into this witness's testimony, and it is now --

12     only now being disclosed.  I just wanted to have this on the record.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you saying you had no prior notice of the

14     existence of this document, or that it wasn't on a list of documents to

15     be used with this witness; which?

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think it was on the 65 ter list,

17     but it was not on the list of documents to be used with this witness.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Mr. Stamp.

19             MR. STAMP:  That's correct, Your Honours.  It was not on the

20     lists of documents to be used.  It was served on the Defence last week.

21     But it arose -- the issues in respect to the collegium minutes and the

22     information given to General Ojdanic in those minutes arose yesterday,

23     and since the witness had discussed these collegium minutes, the

24     Prosecution submits that if there is another minute that he could comment

25     on, we should allow him the opportunity.  I agree it was not on the

Page 5949

 1     notification, but it was in respect to something that arose yesterday.

 2             I should add that there are many documents that the Defence has

 3     used in the course of their cross-examination that was not on the

 4     notification that they noticed us about this morning, yesterday morn --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Two bads don't make a good, Mr. Stamp.  We'll deal

 6     with each when there's an objection.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, carry on, Mr. Stamp.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.  Your Honours.

10        Q.   I just want you to have a look at what General Djordjevic --

11     withdrawn, I'm so sorry.  General Ojdanic is saying here.  He is

12     discussing Racak and he said:

13             "If the forces have to be used, nobody is denying the right to

14     those who have the right to order it, but that means that this joint

15     staff, Joint Command, or whatever decided that operation in the Racak

16     village could not be carried out without the assistance of the

17     Yugoslav Army..."

18             The question is, Were you aware in 1999 that General Ojdanic and

19     the staff of the Supreme Command knew that the Joint Command ordered the

20     Racak operation?

21        A.   No, I did not know.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STAMP:  In which case we could move on, but before we move

24     on, Your Honours, could I seek to tender this document.  It's 0939.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

Page 5950

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P00902.

 2             MR. STAMP:

 3        Q.   You were shown -- and again I'm moving on, General, I know time

 4     is going.  You were shown a significant number of documents in relation

 5     to war plan and the ground plan.  I don't intend to show you all of them,

 6     just one, and that is D179.  And I'm going to show you a couple of other

 7     documents that you were shown from the Joint Command, and ask you

 8     question.

 9             But before I show you the documents, probably I should ask you

10     the question so you can focus on what is required of you while you are

11     looking at the documents.  The question relates to something you said

12     that the -- in combat, the PJP units and the manoeuvred detachment units

13     were re-subordinated to the VJ.

14             And I'd like you to explain what you mean by resubordination in

15     the context of a document that I show you and whether or not this meant

16     that on the ground, the MUP forces were commanded by VJ forces.

17             MR. STAMP:  So if we could first have a look at D179, and if you

18     could go to page 8 in the English, page 5 in the B/C/S.  Item 3.1.

19        Q.   This is one the directives for war planning that you discussed

20     with Mr. Djurdjic.  And it refers to the task of the 3rd Army in times of

21     war.

22        A.   Yes, I've read this item 3.1.  What is your question?

23        Q.   Just the particular point I want to refer to is:

24             "At the time close all the axes of introduction of DT S from the

25     republic of Albania.  Protect forces of facilities from attack by Siptar

Page 5951

 1     terrorist forces and ensure viability of roads for introduction of forces

 2     from deep within the territory and in coordinated action ..."  -- and I

 3     stress that now -- "... in coordinated action with the MUP forces of the

 4     Republic of Serbia block DTS in close landing sectors and prevent their

 5     coordinated action with NATO forces."

 6             If we could move to another document you were shown, that is

 7     D104.

 8        A.   What is your question?  I don't know if you have a question in

 9     relation to this.

10        Q.   I do.  I think I asked at the beginning, the question is:  Having

11     regard to these documents and the passages I'm showing you, could you

12     explain what you mean by resubordination?  When you say that the MUP

13     forces were resubordinated to the VJ forces on the ground, and can you

14     explain what is meant in these VJ command orders when they refer to

15     coordinated action between the MUP and the VJ?  Do you understand what

16     I'm asking?  Or may I explain what I'm asking.

17             You said, in answer to my friend, that the MUP forces on the

18     ground were resubordinated to the VJ forces in combat.  These VJ

19     documents I'm showing you speak of coordinated action.  Having seen these

20     documents, can you explain to us what you mean by resubordination?

21             I'm just going to show you another document, before you answer.

22             MR. STAMP:  And that is D104, which is a Joint Command order.  If

23     we go to the second page in English, that's item 2.  If you scroll

24     down --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, we are very tight pressed for time.

Page 5952

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll be very brief.

 2     Could we please make a reference of the dates of the documents?  Could

 3     you just point out the date to the witness.  That's all I'm asking.

 4             MR. STAMP:  The Joint Command combat order before us, that's D104

 5     is dated the 22nd of March, 1999.  And the GROM plan, D179, is dated the

 6     16th of January, 1999.

 7             If you scroll down to the bottom in B/C/S and the English.

 8        Q.   You see there the "... task of the Pristina Corps in coordination

 9     with the Republic of Serbia MUP is to seal off, route, and destroy the

10     SDS in the general area of Malo Kosovo."

11             Now, could you, having regard to those documents and your

12     previous evidence, explain what do you mean by resubordination of these

13     MUP forces?

14        A.   Well, two terms are in use here.  One is in coordination with

15     units.  When that is used, "in coordination," that means that if there is

16     a military order, an order issued to a military unit, they have to be

17     aware that they are not the sole actors in this operation.  If there

18     is -- if the goal is the same and that is to route the sabotage and

19     terrorist units, then there is also the participation of MUP units in

20     that operation.  In other words, that it's not the army alone that is

21     taking action in this operation, but that the MUP forces are also taking

22     part in it.

23             So I just is have to make it clear here.  This really means that

24     they have to coordinate their action which would mean that the army has

25     their own target which is their sole target, and they act separately

Page 5953

 1     here; whereas the MUP has its own target which is again separate, and

 2     they act on it separately, but the time-frame is the same, they do it in

 3     coordination.

 4             As for resubordination, that means that if the command issues an

 5     order, the task that is ordered, and only for the purposes of that

 6     particular task, a MUP unit would be also within its complement.  So that

 7     the orders that are issued to their primary subordinated units would also

 8     be issued to the MUP unit.

 9             Whereas, in an area responsibility of a military unit, in other

10     words, not the entire territory of Kosovo, but only in the area of

11     responsibility or the area of combat, which would be clearly defined by

12     mentioning the borders, the left border and right border of this area of

13     operation, so that if there is a MUP unit also taking part in an

14     operation in this area of operation, that would mean that there would

15     only be one place where the command is issued.  There couldn't be two

16     different places from where commands are issued.  And in this case and

17     under the law it would be the army alone that issues such orders.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And does that mean that the MUP units that are

19     involved in accomplishing their separate tasks would be commanded on the

20     ground by VJ officers?

21        A.   Again, you are using a term that I cannot precisely answer to.

22     You say if they are conducting a separate operation.  I clearly

23     explained --

24        Q.   Go ahead.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  A separate task.  Interpreter's correction.

Page 5954

 1             MR. STAMP:

 2        Q.   You indicated that "in coordination with" would mean that all the

 3     parties should be aware that both of them, both the VJ and the units --

 4     and the MUP units, were participating in the operation and that it was

 5     not the army alone.  Please, one moment.

 6             And you went on to say, this would mean that the army had their

 7     own target which is their sole target and they act separately here,

 8     whereas the MUP has its own target which is again separate and they act

 9     on it separately.

10             All I want to know is, When the MUP is acting on its target

11     separately, as you put it, is the MUP unit commanded by a VJ officer?

12        A.   No, and again I have to clarify, if the MUP is operating outside

13     of the area where -- area of operation of the army, they act

14     independently.  And then it is probable that in their command, their

15     order, they will be instructed to do in coordination with the army so and

16     so.  But if they are ordered to act in coordination, then -- in

17     resubordination, then they would have to be subordinated to the army.

18             And it's clear that they always have a common task which is to

19     route the forces, whatever, in Drenica, and then next it says they -- it

20     is their task to provide support to the MUP and so on.  But the command,

21     the order is issued by the military commander and it issues the task to

22     the MUP, whereas the MUP will elaborate or develop its own very specific

23     goals, but they will always say "in support of the army."

24             And that's why in all the orders that I was shown, you would

25     always also have specified what the tasks of the MUP units are as well as

Page 5955

 1     the tasks of the army, with the understanding that the MUP would have to

 2     develop their own plan of operation but in keeping with the order issued

 3     from the military command.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown a significant amount of documents -

 5     and I'm moving on here - dated April and May 1999 in respect to the

 6     procedures for the induction of volunteers.  Some of them referred to

 7     proper procedures for prisoners and prisoners of war, and to respect the

 8     Geneva Convention.  And I recall in your evidence - and it's at page

 9     5849 - you said that you found one document strange because you were

10     wondering why at such a late stage in the war orders of this nature were

11     being given.

12             Well, in respect to these orders that I just mentioned that you

13     were shown, the orders about respecting civilians and the

14     Geneva Convention which were issued in April and May, do you know whether

15     or not by April and May there was an international outcry re crimes in

16     Kosovo or alleged crimes in Kosovo that were committed against

17     Kosovar Albanians.

18        A.   Well, you've made this sound a bit more complicated.  When you

19     said in the late stages that I found it strange that some documents, some

20     type of document is prepared and that I said that I was suspicious of

21     such documents, and then you mentioned volunteers and the convention and

22     then the international outcry.  Now, let me be clear, when I mentioned

23     this document and I saw that something was written in the late stages of

24     the war and that I found that a bit unusual, that related to the

25     establishment of the military and territorial detachment, the order

Page 5956

 1     issued to the military district of Pristina to establish a new military

 2     territorial detachment that was composed exclusively of Albanians.  And I

 3     said this was a bit strange.  That is what I was referring to.  And that

 4     had nothing to do with the outcry that came later on regarding the crimes

 5     committed.  But there were crimes committed on the other side as well and

 6     there was no outcry regarding them, but to be clear, that is what I was

 7     referring to.  Whereas, you sort of implied something that I did not

 8     imply.

 9             But I also said that when I was put back in active service on the

10     27th of April; when I showed up, I received a booklet citing the various

11     articles of the Geneva Convention and the treatment of prisoners and so

12     on and so forth.  In other words, I received that as well because -- and

13     this, these regulations were distributed to every participant at the

14     lowest level of the army.

15        Q.   Sorry if I made an implication that -- or implied something that

16     you did not mean and thanks for the correction.

17             But you are aware, though, that by April there was an

18     international outcry about alleged crimes, let's forget about who the

19     victims were, but alleged crimes in Kosovo?

20        A.   I am afraid I might take up too much of your time.  There was a

21     journalist, I think his name was Filipovic, who spoke to some

22     representatives of the foreign media and said that children were being

23     killed in Kosovo from an air-gun -- from aeroplanes and that little

24     children were killed by being shot at.

25             This is one case.  But I also explained where when he was

Page 5957

 1     justifying what he had reported in the papers, he said that he had heard

 2     about this in cafes, in conversations with people, but that he didn't

 3     really have firsthand information to that effect.  This would have been

 4     in April or so.  But he was -- this was the initial actually report where

 5     it was reported that a child two years old was killed by an anti-aircraft

 6     shell.  But that there was shelling, I do not doubt that, and I'm not

 7     contesting that, but I can't say when it started.

 8        Q.   But just going back to the question, apart from Filipovic, which

 9     I understand is a from Belgrade, did you know of an international outcry

10     in respect to alleged crimes in Kosovo from even in March of 1999?  Can

11     you recall that or not?

12        A.   I don't have any recollection of that.  I know that there was

13     general condemnation.  Everything that was being done was condemned and

14     there was an outcry, but as for the aggression that was underway, and the

15     civilian casualties, nobody really paid heed to that.  For instance, that

16     the maternity ward in Belgrade had been hit, that some soldiers were

17     killed in the neighbourhood of the civilian hospital in Dedinje, and a

18     host of other incidents of that sort.

19             MR. STAMP:  Very well, thank you very much, General, thanks for

20     coming and spending all this time here.

21             Your Honours, I have nothing further in re-examination, may it

22     please you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  There was one exhibit, Mr. Djurdjic, shown to this

Page 5958

 1     witness that was not on the list of which you had notice.  Mr. Stamp in

 2     re-examination showed one document.  Do you want to ask anything further

 3     about that document?

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, and I will have a

 5     comment tomorrow.  I don't want to waste your time today.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  General, you'll be, I'm sure, pleased to know that

 9     that concludes the questioning for you.  They have been four long days.

10     The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague

11     and the assistance that you have been able to give to us and for the

12     clarity which with you've dealt with the questions of counsel.

13             You may now, of course, return to your normal activities, and the

14     court officer will show you out.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE PARKER:  So that it does not slip our minds, we marked for

17     identification a document as P888, in particular because it was indicated

18     by Mr. Djurdjic that he proposed to cross-examine in respect of its

19     reliability or authenticity.  Having now heard the evidence, so far as

20     the witness has been able to deal with that document particularly, and

21     having paid attention to the cross-examination, the Chamber is of the

22     view that that document should now be admitted as an exhibit rather than

23     marked, making it clear that that does not mean that the document is

24     necessarily and forever now deemed reliable or authentic.  And it can be

25     subject to whatever other evidence and submission is thought appropriate

Page 5959

 1     to advanced about the document.

 2             We need to adjourn now.  Is there any other particular procedural

 3     matter before we do?

 4             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours, at the beginning of the

 5     proceedings -- the examination of this witness, as a matter of fact

 6     shortly before he was brought in to the will of the Court, we indicated

 7     that many of the documents were pretty much similar to some documents

 8     that he had been shown and he was able to just identify them.  And we'd

 9     have discussions with the Defence and the Defence graciously agreed to

10     have discussions.  And we have agreed upon most of those documents, I

11     think all but three.  And we were, if time had permitted, proceeding to

12     read them into the record.  I don't know if that could be done tomorrow.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I don't believe we need to spend time reading them

14     into the record.  If a list can be given to the court officer, a minute

15     will issue which will identify the exhibit numbers that are allocated to

16     the documents which will be received by consent.

17             MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  If any of those documents needs to be admitted

19     under seal, that should be specifically indicated on the list --

20             MR. STAMP:  Indeed.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  -- so that there's no mistake.  And the list will

22     contain those documents which are mutually agreed by counsel, and is that

23     a combined list of Prosecution and Defence documents?

24             MR. STAMP:  I -- just the Prosecution documents.  I think all the

25     Defence documents that we had agreed to were tendered through the

Page 5960

 1     witness.  We had agreed to many of the Defence documents that they were

 2     admissible, but I think counsel did tender them.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We will see what appears on the list tomorrow

 4     morning.  It's marvellous what an overnight does.  We'll adjourn.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day of June,

 7                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.