Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6545

 1                           Monday, 29 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  We are ready, I believe, for the

 6     next witness, Ms. Kravetz.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The next witness is

 8     Mr. Martin Pnishi.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Please read aloud the affirmation that is shown to

14     you now.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, there are some questions for you.  We start

20     with Ms. Kravetz.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS:  MARTIN PNISHI

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

25        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please statement your full name for

Page 6546

 1     the record.

 2        A.   Good morning, my name is Martin Pnishi.

 3        Q.   When and where were you born, Mr. Pnishi?

 4        A.   I was born on the 9th of March, 1944, in Ramoc, Gjakove

 5     municipality.

 6        Q.   And in 1999 where were you living, Mr. Pnishi?

 7        A.   From 1973 until today I have been living in Meje, in Gjakove

 8     municipality.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, did you provide a statement to the Office of the

10     Prosecution in April 2000 in relation to events that you witnessed in

11     your village of Meja in 1999?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Before coming to court today, did you have the opportunity to

14     review that statement?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And I understand, sir, that there's a correction you wish to make

17     to that statement that you indicated to one of my colleagues in proofing.

18     I am going to read out the passage that you wish to correct and just ask

19     you to confirm if the correction is right.  This is a passage that is on

20     page 3 of the statement, second paragraph, and it is a sentence that

21     currently reads:

22             "Two of them stopped in the courtyard near the porch.  They wore

23     masks and green camouflage uniforms."

24             I understand that this should read, the last sentence:

25             "They wore masks and blue camouflage uniforms."

Page 6547

 1             Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, the uniforms were camouflage.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is using the colour "verdhe"

 4     which -- and the witness qualified that it is grass coloured.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:

 6        Q.   Okay.  So this should read they wore masks and camouflage

 7     uniforms which were grass colour; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   Other than for that correction, sir, are you satisfied that the

10     information contained in this statement is true and accurate to the best

11     of your knowledge and belief?

12        A.   Yes, it is true and correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, I understand you also made an addendum to the

14     statement which is dated March 2002?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you have the chance to read that addendum before you came to

17     court today?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   And having reviewed that addendum, are you satisfied that the

20     information contained within that addendum is true and accurate to the

21     best of your knowledge and belief?

22        A.   Yes, it is correct.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, both of these, the statement and the

24     addendum are in the e-court system under the same Exhibit number.  This

25     is 65 ter 02236, and I seek to tender that into evidence at this stage.

Page 6548

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, two will be received as one exhibit.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1033, Your Honours.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:

 4        Q.   Mr. Pnishi, did you previously testify before this Tribunal in

 5     the case of Milutinovic et al.?

 6        A.   Yes, when I came here for the second time.

 7        Q.   And did you have the chance recently to go over the transcript of

 8     the testimony in that case with the help of a language assistant?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today that you were asked

11     during your testimony in the Milutinovic case, would you provide the same

12     answers, sir?

13        A.   I would give the same answers, yes.  I would tell about the

14     things that I saw with my own eyes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this transcript into

17     evidence.  It's 05064, and I ask that that be received.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, that will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1034, Your Honours.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I will now proceed to read the court

21     summary for this witness's evidence.

22             The witness is from the village of Meje, Djakovica municipality.

23     He describes how since the autumn of 1998 VJ tanks had been deployed

24     above Cabrat hill overlooking Meje.  The police were also present, and

25     Serb forces occupied the area.

Page 6549

 1             On the 22nd of April, 1999, in Meje village, five MUP officers

 2     were killed.  One of the victims was Milutin Prascevic.  Following this

 3     incident, many of the witness's neighbours came to his house for shelter.

 4             Already by that date, there were villagers who had been expelled

 5     from surrounding villages who had come to Meje seeking refuge.  Among --

 6     a number of these were sheltering in the house of Mr. Pnishi's brother,

 7     also in Meje, which came under fire later that day on the 22nd of April.

 8             On the 23rd of April, 1999, the witness and his family left their

 9     home in Meje and sought refuge in the neighbouring village of Jahoc.

10             On the morning of 27th April, the witness, his wife, and his son

11     Mark, returned to their home in Meje to feed their livestock.  At around

12     7 a.m. on the 27th of April, large numbers of police, military, and other

13     forces appeared unexpectedly in Meje.  The witness went to the second

14     floor of his house from where he saw that many soldiers and police had

15     surrounded the entire area.  At about 7.30 that morning, two MUP

16     personnel accompanied by the persons who the witness describes as Russian

17     soldiers arrived to the witness's house and told him to leave his house

18     with his family as they were about to burn it.  They had with them a man

19     the witness knew as Kole Duzhmani from the village of Korenica.  The

20     witness began making preparations to leave and put his invalid wife in a

21     wheelbarrow.  The men received an order on the radio and then took

22     Duzhmani to the neighbouring house which was owned by the witness's

23     brother.  The witness then heard gun-shots and saw the house being set on

24     fire.  He saw Duzhmani's bullet-ridden body 19 days later.

25             That same morning on the 27th of April the witness saw that Serb

Page 6550

 1     forces had set up a check-point near his house.  The check-point was

 2     manned by VJ soldiers, police officers, and paramilitaries together with

 3     armoured vehicles.  The witness also saw a large number of civilians

 4     heading towards Meje from surrounding villages.  At the check-point

 5     Kosovar Albanians men were separated from the women and children and some

 6     were sent to the school at the entrance of the village on the left side.

 7     The witness also saw that the Kosovar Albanians were forced to discard

 8     their identification papers.

 9             Later that same morning, police, soldiers, and paramilitaries

10     gathered near the school.  The witness took his wife to his godfather's

11     house in Jahoc.  From there Mr. Pnishi had a view of the Ura e Travas

12     bridge in Jahoc.  He saw Serb policemen march seven young men to the

13     bridge; one officer then killed them all with the machine-gun.  Shortly

14     after that, fearing that his son may be among the victims, he witness

15     went to the bridge and checked the bodies; did not recognise any of them.

16             On the 2nd of May the witness saw the bodies on the bridge being

17     collected by gypsies using a tractor.

18             In June 1999 after returning to Kosovo, Mr. Pnishi went to the

19     execution site near Shyt Hasanaj meadow in Meje, he explains that he saw

20     the signs of some 74 bodies that had been burnt there.  He also saw

21     evidence of a bulldozer having been used in that area.

22             That is the end of the in-court summary, Your Honours.

23             Your Honours, we had initially listed an associated exhibit to be

24     tendered with this witness -- with the Milutinovic transcript,

25     unfortunately the copy of this exhibit - and this is a map that had been

Page 6551

 1     marked by the witness in the previous proceedings - the copy that's in

 2     e-court is not legible.  So I'm going to ask the witness to go again

 3     through the markings of the same map just so this can be clarified and

 4     his transcript can be understood.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have 65 ter 00035 up on the screen.

 7        Q.   Mr. Pnishi, a map is going to appear on the screen before you.

 8     I'm going to ask you to make some markings on this map.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  And would kindly ask the usher if the usher could

10     assist the witness in making these markings.

11             If we could blow up the area around the town of Djakovica which

12     is around the middle of the map.

13        Q.   Sir, in your statement you describe events that took place in

14     your village on 27th of April.  I would first like to ask you to look at

15     the map and if you could please place an X to indicate approximately

16     where you were living at that time.

17        A.   In the village of Meje.

18        Q.   We see two villages marked Meja, one which is closer to Djakovica

19     and the one you have marked which is called call Meja-Orize?

20        A.   I live in Meje.  Orize is next to Meje as a matter of fact; the

21     road divides the two.

22        Q.   Okay.  In your statement you indicate that you saw a huge crowd

23     coming from the village of Guska.  Could you indicate to us by drawing an

24     arrow - and this is on page 4, first paragraph on the top - the direction

25     in which you saw that huge crowd of people coming from Guska to where you

Page 6552

 1     were -- Guska and Korenica villages.

 2        A.   Would you like me to make a straight arrow or follow the road?

 3        Q.   Just indicate as best as you can the direction from where you saw

 4     them coming and the direction this huge crowd you saw coming from Guska

 5     and Korenica villages were heading?

 6        A.   This is the direction they followed from Guske to Korenica and

 7     then to Meje.

 8        Q.   Now, you also say that you saw people coming Junik towards Meja,

 9     and you say that they were walking on the main road and this convoy --

10     there were people from 17 villages - this is the same paragraph.  Can you

11     draw and arrow to -- we don't see Junik here on this map as we've zoomed

12     in, but can you indicate the general direction from when these people

13     were coming just with a line?

14        A.   Junik is up here, but I cannot see it on the map.  Junik is close

15     to the Albanian border and then they went to Dobrosh, Dallashi, Rypaj,

16     Orize, and Meje here.  Right here.  So the people from Junik followed

17     this direction.

18             MS. Kravetz:  Just for the clarity of the transcript, the witness

19     has drawn a line from the top left of the map towards the village of Meja

20     starting from the village of Dobros, above the village of Dobros.

21        A.   Yes, it's Dobrosh.

22        Q.   Now, when you say that these people in the convoy were from 17

23     villages, would this have been villages that were on the road that you

24     have just drawn?  Is this where you believe that these persons were

25     coming from?

Page 6553

 1        A.   Yes.  From Meje, Jahoc, Rypaj-Madanaj, Ramoc, Dallashi,

 2     Neci i Eperme, Neci i Ulet, Sheremet, Dobrosh, and Junik up there.  Junik

 3     and Batusha are up in the map here, but I can't see them.  17 villages

 4     altogether.

 5        Q.   And just roughly can you tell us approximately how many people

 6     were in this convoy, how big was this convoy that you saw coming from the

 7     direction of Junik and going down that road that you've drawn on the map.

 8     Just estimate, are we talking of hundreds of people or less?

 9        A.   Approximately 1.000.  Over 1.000.  There were loads of people.

10     In the beginning people came from Korenice and Guske.  And about half an

11     hour, an hour later, people from Junik and the other villages came.

12     There were children, elderly people, all kinds of people.

13        Q.   Now, you speak in your statement about going to your godfather's

14     son in the village of Jahoc.  Could you please draw a circle to indicate

15     where that is.

16        A.   Jahoc is here.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you speak about having witnessed the killing of

18     seven men on a bridge - and you describe this in your statement, we are

19     not going to go over the details - but I would like to know if you are

20     able to mark that location for us on the map, if that is visible on this

21     map, this bridge that you speak about, the Ura e Travas bridge in Jahoc?

22        A.   It should be somewhere here.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Just for the sake of the transcript, the witness

24     has made a marking next to the village he has circled as Jahoc.  It's a

25     marking right above the village of Meja.

Page 6554

 1        A.   It is between Jahoc and Meje.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I asked that this marked map be

 4     received in evidence.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1035, Your Honours.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, at this stage I have no further

 8     questions for the witness.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Ms. Kravetz.

10             Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pnishi.  My name is Veljko Djurdjic, I'm a

14     member of the Defence team for the accused Vlastimir Djordjevic.

15     Assisted by Ms. Marie O'Leary, also a member of our team.

16             I have a few questions for you.  And I would like a few

17     clarifications.  I'd like to avoid repetitions because you have already

18     given two written statements and testified before.

19             Let's pick up where you left off with Ms. Kravetz.  You were

20     living in Meja village; correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How far is Meja village from Meja-Orize?

23        A.   From the village of Orize, a bridge divides the two villages.

24     There is a stream that goes under the bridge, it's called the Trava

25     stream.

Page 6555

 1        Q.   From your house to the village of Meja-Orize, what is the

 2     distance?

 3        A.   But I live in Meje.  I live at the entrance to the village.  And

 4     then there's a road and you can go to Jahoc.  It's only about 100 metres

 5     from my house, bridge is.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't ask you about Jahoc.  Can you tell me how far

 7     is it from Meja to Jahoc, let's say?

 8        A.   It just -- the stream that divides them, there are houses on both

 9     sides of the stream.  And on one side of the stream is one village, and

10     on the other side of the stream is the other village.

11        Q.   You are telling me this about the distance between Meja and

12     Meja-Orize?

13        A.   I'm speaking about Meje and Jahoc.

14        Q.   Where is Meja-Orize?

15        A.   There is a road between Meje and Orize, it's the asphalt road

16     that divides the two, the one that goes to Gjakove, and also to Junik in

17     the other direction.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And where is Jahoc?

19        A.   Between Jahoc and Meje is a stream which is called Trava stream,

20     so it's just the river between the two, the Trava river.

21        Q.   So there's no distance dividing them, it's practically one and

22     the same place; if there's one bridge dividing these places, it's

23     practically one place, not three different places?

24        A.   Yes, you would say so.  It's the same area.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 6556

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I call up 65 ter 00035.

 2        Q.   Where is Meja, Witness?  If you find it, put a line under Meja.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   I'm sorry.  Can you see well with your eyeglasses?

 5        A.   I cannot see without my glasses and these glasses are not very

 6     good either, but I'm doing my best.

 7        Q.   Are you short-sighted?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I do have a problem.  I cannot see very well.

 9        Q.   That's why I'm asking you, because looking at this map on the

10     condition that it's accurate, and we've assumed so far that it's

11     accurate, you keep marking another village, not the one where you live.

12        A.   Here is Meje.  I can see two Mejes here.

13        Q.   Correct.  And I'm asking you now, you've underlined the second

14     Meja, so I'm asking you between the first Meja and the second one, what

15     is the distance?

16        A.   There are two Mejes here, however, there there is only one Meje.

17     Here is Meje-Orize and Jahoc.  This one here should be Meje.  There are

18     no two Mejes, there are only one, although I can see two here on the map.

19        Q.   Well, I see the village of Orize quite separately on this

20     village.  Does a village called Orize exist?

21        A.   That is another Orize outside Gjakove, but it's on the other

22     side, on the side of Bistrazin.  It's sort of town settlement.  Whereas

23     where I live in that area you have Meje, Orize, and Jahoc.

24        Q.   All right.  Could you tell me whether Meja is located on the main

25     road between Djakovica and Junik?

Page 6557

 1        A.   Yes, it's by that road, the main road, the asphalt road goes

 2     through the village of Meje.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What's the distance between your house and the centre

 4     of Djakovica?

 5        A.   Two and a half kilometres to 3 kilometres, I would say.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me what is the distance between Meja

 7     and the village of Guska?

 8        A.   The distance between Meje and Guske horizontally speaking is 3

 9     kilometres.  However, if you take the road then it would be 4 kilometres

10     approximately.

11        Q.   Thank you, from your house can you see the village of Guska?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And can you see the village of Korenica?

14        A.   If I go to the second or third floor of my house, then I can see

15     Korenice village as well.  I can see some of the houses in that village.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you underline the village of Korenica and the

17     village of Guska on the map, please.

18        A.   Korenice is written twice on the map, and Guske also.  Shall I

19     encircle them?

20        Q.   Two names are encircled.  If you can't see which is the right

21     one, you can encircle both of them.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   So what is the distance between your house and Korenica?

24        A.   Two and a half kilometres.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me these black lines, are these roads

Page 6558

 1     that are marked here on the map?

 2        A.   This is the main road.  Yes, they do show the roads, the black

 3     lines.

 4        Q.   Does this mean that from Djakovica if you want to go to Guska you

 5     would take this lower road here on the left to the intersection and then

 6     furthermore to the right to Orize-Jahoc and to the left to go to

 7     Korenica?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   You're welcome.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

12     exhibit into evidence.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D230, Your Honours.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Pnishi, my learned colleague started with a correction to

17     your statement, but as far as I understood, there was nothing that you

18     actually corrected in your statement; am I right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Having read your statements, Mr. Pnishi, I understood

21     that you were born in the village of Jahoc.  Could you tell me who you

22     lived with in the village of Jahoc after you were born?

23        A.   I was born in the village of Ramoc, not Jahoc.

24        Q.   I apologise.  In the village of Ramoc, who was it that you lived

25     with?

Page 6559

 1        A.   With the villagers of Ramoc.

 2        Q.   Did you have a father, any uncles, did you live with them?  So

 3     I'm talking about your family that you lived with.

 4        A.   We were eight children altogether.  We lived with our mother.  My

 5     father died in 1952, so my mother brought us up.

 6        Q.   Mr. Pnishi, is Sokolj Pnishi a brother of yours?

 7        A.   No.  He is a relative, a distant relative who has the same last

 8     name as my family.  He is no longer living.  He died about 20 or so years

 9     ago.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me, you said that in 1973 you moved to

11     Meja, where did you live before that, before 1973?

12        A.   Before we moved to Meje, we lived in Nec village.  From Ramoc we

13     moved to Nec in 1960, I believe, and we lived in Nec until 1973.  In 1973

14     we moved to Meje.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What did your family do for living?

16        A.   At that time, my late brother who died about 25 years ago worked

17     in Gjakove.  Another brother also was employed, I was employed too, so we

18     lived from our salaries.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any land?

20        A.   Yes, in Nec -- we sold our land in Ramoc in order to buy a piece

21     of land in Nec.

22        Q.   And did you continue to own that land that was in Nec after you

23     moved to Meja?

24        A.   No.  We sold it to a relative who lived in Ramoc.  He bought our

25     land and house in Nec, whereas we moved to Meje.

Page 6560

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You had a house in Meja, I can see that you had a

 2     brother in Meja.  Were these houses on the same plot of land or were you

 3     in different places in the village?

 4        A.   They were on the same plot of land.  When we bought that plot of

 5     land, we bought it together.  We built our houses on that piece of land

 6     together.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How big was the land, the surface of the land that

 8     you had in Meja?  I'm talking about the land surface.

 9        A.   We have one hectare of land, each of us.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   You're welcome.

12        Q.   Your house, how distant is it from the main road?

13        A.   My house from the main asphalt road is about 200 metres away.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Between your house and the main asphalt road, are

15     there any other houses?

16        A.   Between my house and the main asphalt road, there are no houses.

17     If you come from the other direction, then there are.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And what is that other direction?

19        A.   Between the Trava bridge and my house there were houses.  There

20     was a neighbour of ours who lived there, his name was Dragan.  A road

21     separates my house from his house.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me what is your educational

23     background, which school have you completed?

24        A.   I've completed secondary school.

25        Q.   So what was your occupation?

Page 6561

 1        A.   I was a traffic policeman.

 2        Q.   When did you start working as a traffic policeman?

 3        A.   From 1st of January, 1969, up until 1983.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And where did you work?

 5        A.   In Rahovec.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you live in Orahovac while you worked there as a

 7     traffic policeman?

 8        A.   I lived in Rahovec too, but I also travelled because my family

 9     was not with me.  I commuted to work most of the time.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you retire as a traffic policeman?

11        A.   Yes, I had an operation and I was no longer able to continue with

12     my work, so I was retired as an invalid.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You did not have any housing resolved in Orahovac?

14        A.   There was a house where I slept when it was late to go home.

15        Q.   Did you have any traffic related problems while you worked with

16     MUP in Orahovac?

17        A.   No, I never had any problems.

18        Q.   Did you have a traffic incident in 1974?

19        A.   Yes, a train accident.  I survived.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And did you suffer a traffic accident in Djakovica in

21     1980?

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23        Q.   In 1974, were there criminal proceedings at the municipality

24     court in Orahovac because of that train accident and because somebody

25     left the scene?

Page 6562

 1        A.   It would take a long time to explain this matter, but there was.

 2     Most probably there was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Were you convicted for two months of imprisonment

 4     with a conditional sentence of one year?

 5        A.   Honestly, I've forgotten.  I can't remember.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pnishi, could you tell me, when was

 7     Milutin Prascevic killed?

 8        A.   Milutin Prascevic was killed on the 22nd at 1700 hours.  I was in

 9     the courtyard.  I heard the gun-shots in Meje from the centre of the

10     village somewhere; and shortly after, I could see police and army going

11     upwards and some people from the village then told me then five policemen

12     were killed and Prascevic was one of them.  This happened on the

13     22nd of April.

14        Q.   All right.  How can you be certain that this was on

15     April the 22nd?  What is your foundation for this claim?

16        A.   I remembered the date and the hour I heard the gun-shots.  I'm

17     absolutely certain about it.

18        Q.   You gave your statement in April of 2000 so this was almost one

19     year, actually exactly one year after the incident, and according to all

20     the data, Prascevic wasn't really killed on the 22nd.  So I'm wondering

21     how come that you know the exact date and time.  If you only said April,

22     okay; but you are mentioning the exact date and time in your statement.

23        A.   It's not only me who knows this, people from that area know it as

24     well.  We can never forget that date because they were shooting at our

25     houses.  After that, there was a calm period of five days until the 27th.

Page 6563

 1     That's why I'm telling you I will never forget that date.

 2        Q.   Mr. Pnishi, it wasn't five policemen that were killed, it was

 3     only three, if I can say "only."

 4        A.   I was told that five policemen were killed, and this is how I

 5     recorded it in my own mind.  Prascevic was amongst these five policemen.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Which road were these policemen on when they were

 7     killed?

 8        A.   On the road that goes to Gjakove, Meje, Junik.  They were killed

 9     in the village, in the middle of the village.

10        Q.   Could you, from your house, see the place in which they were

11     killed?

12        A.   No.  You cannot see that place.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Is this place after the intersection when you turn

14     towards Meja, Orize, and Jahoc?

15        A.   You have to follow the road going to Junik for another 1

16     kilometre or 1 and a half kilometre from the intersection.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me who told you about the identity of

18     those that were killed?

19        A.   The villagers who lived in that part of the village.  They left

20     their houses, they fled their houses and went towards the lower part of

21     the village.  It's the villagers who told me.

22        Q.   When did they tell you this?

23        A.   The very same day, maybe half an hour later after they arrived

24     where I was, the police were shooting and they had to leave their houses.

25     They came to my house, we sat down in the basement, and that's where they

Page 6564

 1     told me.  And we also saw the police going from Gjakove to Meje in their

 2     vehicles.  Lots of them.

 3        Q.   And who told you the identity of the persons killed?

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I believe this question has been asked

 5     and answered already.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  The question has been asked, not specifically

 7     answered.  It may not be able to be, but please carry on, Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I received a partial answer, but

 9     he heard from villagers who had arrived that some policemen had been

10     killed.  I'm asking about the identity of the policemen.

11        Q.   Who told you which policemen were killed?

12        A.   Well, I can't give you the exact names and surnames.  There were

13     many people who came at the same time, children, women, men; and they

14     told me that five policemen had been killed in Meje.  What names could I

15     give you?  I didn't note down the names of the people who told me the

16     information.  There were about 30 people who came at the same time.  I

17     don't remember who of them told me.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And how did they know that policemen had been killed,

19     did they tell you that?

20        A.   They had seen what had happened because while they were fleeing,

21     they had seen the scene of the incident.

22        Q.   What did they tell you about what they had seen?

23        A.   They told me that five policemen had been killed in Meje.  I had

24     heard the shots myself.  And they also told me that Milutin Prascevic was

25     among them.  And all the people who came, men, women, children, said the

Page 6565

 1     same thing.

 2        Q.   So you can't tell us who told you about it.  You can just tell us

 3     that the incident happened, no details?

 4        A.   No, I can't give you exact names.  I'm sorry.  There were many

 5     people.

 6        Q.   You don't know where the car was, which car, who was in the car,

 7     how the people in the car were dressed, who attacked the car, from which

 8     side?

 9        A.   No, they didn't tell me anything else.  They just told me what I

10     just related to you, and they fled their houses immediately.

11        Q.   And why did they flee?

12        A.   Because they were shooting at their houses, from the asphalt road

13     towards their houses.  They broke the window-panes and they were shooting

14     against all the houses that were along the road.

15        Q.   If that is so, Mr. Pnishi, then how did they manage to leave

16     their houses and reach you?

17        A.   They left their houses, they came down the village and to my

18     courtyard.  They wanted to leave as soon as possible because they wanted

19     to escape from any retaliation.  They wanted to be away from the scene of

20     what had happened.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Was there any fire at the policemen from their

22     houses?

23        A.   No, none of the villagers of Meje opened fire.  Never.

24        Q.   How do you know that?

25        A.   We had never had any problems of the sort in Meje.  Meje had

Page 6566

 1     always been encircled by police and army.  We didn't dare, we couldn't

 2     even fire a shot.  It wasn't possible.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And who killed the policemen?

 4        A.   As to who killed them, only God knows.  For eight months Orize

 5     and Meje had been encircled, Jahoc too.  There were police and soldiers

 6     all around us.  And I don't know who killed them, only God knows.

 7        Q.   How do you know that it was none of the villagers?

 8        A.   I am a hundred per cent sure that this person who killed them was

 9     not from Jahoc or Meje because had they been from Meje, we would have

10     been killed, all of us.  No one would have remained alive.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us now, where did Pnishi Sokolj live?

12        A.   Sokolj Pnishi from Ramoc went to Nec, but he died about 30 years

13     ago, I think.

14        Q.   Yes.  And his son is Nik Pnishi; correct?

15        A.   Yes, Nik.  Nik Sokolje, yes.

16        Q.   And Nik Sokolje was the KLA commander in Nec, wasn't he?

17        A.   To be honest, as far as I know he was not; but maybe he was, I'm

18     not sure.  He was young.  Nik Sokolje was really young, but maybe he was.

19        Q.   Did you hear that on the 14th of August, 1998, Milovan Vuksanovic

20     was attacked and killed?

21        A.   No, I'm not aware of this case.  You said Milovan Vuksanovic, no,

22     I'm not aware of that.

23        Q.   Yes, a policemen.  But never mind, if you don't know, let's move

24     on.  Do you know that Nik Pnishi was in prison throughout the war in

25     1999, a prison in Prizren?  He was released after the war and he came

Page 6567

 1     back to Nec?

 2        A.   You said Nik Pnishi, yes, he was in prison after the war, and

 3     then he went back to Nec.  Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In 1998, was there any fighting around where you

 5     live?

 6        A.   In Meje-Orize and Jahoc, there was no fighting whatsoever.  There

 7     was no fighting in Korenice or Nec either.  Only in Dobrosh I think there

 8     was fighting.

 9        Q.   Well, I see here in your statement you mentioned Nec, Smolice,

10     and Dobros as places where you said there had been fighting.  Who was the

11     fighting between?  Who fought?

12        A.   The Serb police and army forces with the KLA.

13        Q.   And what was the KLA doing?

14        A.   The KLA were trying to defend their homes, their villages, their

15     people, as much as they could.  On the 30th of April -- no, I'm sorry,

16     the 30th of July, army forces from Gjakove went to that direction.  And

17     on the 2nd of August, Nec, Smolice, and Dobrosh fell.  The KLA was

18     destroyed.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the purpose of the KLA?  What was their

20     objective?

21        A.   The purpose of the KLA was to defend their own homes and their

22     own people, their own homeland.  They tried to do their best.  They

23     resisted as much as they could, but then they were destroyed and

24     everything fell in the hands of the Serb army and police from the

25     2nd of August, 1998, onwards.

Page 6568

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And do you remember what happened with Orahovac

 2     sometime on the 18th of July in 1998, or Zociste or Pagarusa?

 3        A.   I can't remember.  These places are far from where I live.

 4        Q.   But you were working in Orahovac.  Did you hear that the KLA had

 5     taken control of Orahovac and Zociste and Pagarusa on the 18th of July?

 6     Was that defending the village?

 7        A.   There were no news on television at that time.  The Albanian new

 8     had been suspended, so we did not have anywhere to learn these things

 9     from.

10        Q.   But did you find out later?

11        A.   No, I didn't hear about these events.  It's very far from where I

12     live, I told you.

13        Q.   And how far is that?  How far is it from Orahovac to Meja?

14        A.   About 30 kilometres.  28, 30.

15        Q.   You were living in Meja and working in Orahovac but tell me, in

16     your time were civilians allowed to carry weapons such as rifles, some

17     machine-guns?

18        A.   If they had the appropriate licence from the relevant body, they

19     could have hunting rifles or a pistol, that too with a licence.  If they

20     did not have a licence, they could not have a gun at home.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Those people who had these weapons without licence,

22     did you as a policemen arrest such people?  Did you start proceedings

23     against them?

24        A.   Whoever was found in possession of a gun without the proper

25     licence was imprisoned as envisaged by the law.

Page 6569

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And would it be fair to say that concerning automatic

 2     and semi-automatic weapons and especially grenades and heavier weapons,

 3     these were not allowed to be in the possession of citizens because

 4     licences were not issued for them?

 5        A.   Of course not.  That's true.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And criminal complaints were filed against such

 7     people, and criminal proceedings were started against such people.  And

 8     the procedure was that the police submitted a criminal report to the

 9     Prosecutor's Office, the Prosecutor's Office started the prosecution,

10     et cetera?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right in saying that it was also not allowed to

13     smuggle weapons across the border, and illegal border crossings were also

14     not allowed?

15        A.   It wasn't, yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  While you were a traffic policemen, did you inspect

17     vehicles, passenger cars travelling on the road, let's say,

18     Prizren-Djakovica or Orahovac-Xerxe?

19        A.   Yes, I used to stop thousands and thousands of cars, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And this was routine work that you performed as a

21     traffic policemen, wasn't it?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Were civilians scared of you when you stopped them

24     and searched them?

25        A.   Of course, I would think so.  If somebody feels that he is guilty

Page 6570

 1     of something, they would.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And did anyone shoot at you while you were carrying

 3     out your inspections?

 4        A.   No, there was no such case.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You say that on the 22nd April these villagers came

 6     to you.  How long did they stay?

 7        A.   They stayed all night that night in my house and my brother's

 8     house.  The next day they went back to their homes, and for four or five

 9     days there were no patrols; we didn't see any police or army.  Everybody

10     went back to their own homes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you stay at home in Meja with your family?

12        A.   That day I left and went to Jahoc.  I crossed the bridge on Trava

13     and went to another house.  I decided not to stay because they shot at

14     our house previously, so that's why I took my family and went to Jahoc.

15        Q.   Thank you.  When was it earlier that your house was shot at?

16        A.   That night.  That night when those policemen were killed.  When

17     the police forces were coming, they were also shooting at the houses, at

18     the windows.  For example, my brother was nearly wounded.  The bullet

19     went through the window and into the wall very near to where he was.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So these people fled from the shooting and came to

21     another place where there was shooting and all the time they were there,

22     the shooting went on; is that what you are trying to tell me?

23        A.   Well, as it became dark, they couldn't leave our houses.  They

24     waited until morning, everything was quiet in the morning, and they went

25     back to their own houses while I went to Jahoc.

Page 6571

 1        Q.   Yes, but when did it become dark?

 2        A.   Well, about 8.30, 9.00 in the evening.  Maybe 8.00.  I couldn't

 3     tell you exactly, it's been ten years.

 4        Q.   8.30 or 9.00 p.m., is that what you said?

 5        A.   Well ...

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And what time was it and what day was it when you

 7     left your home?

 8        A.   We left the next day.  Everybody else went back to their own

 9     homes while my family and myself went to Jahoc in the morning.

10        Q.   Tell me, who were the people who accompanied you to Jahoc?

11        A.   Myself, my two sons, my daughter, two daughters-in-law, my wife,

12     my brother with his wife and son, my other brother with his wife and

13     three children.  All of us left.

14        Q.   What about your third son, where was he?

15        A.   My third son -- before that day he had already gone to Jahoc.  We

16     would not stay at the same place all the time.  We were separated into

17     five different houses where we stayed during that period.

18        Q.   Which son left earlier and when earlier?

19        A.   Genc his wife and his children.

20        Q.   Thank you.  What about your brother Gjelosh, did he leave on the

21     same day to Jahoc?

22        A.   He also had left earlier, but we would come from time to time to

23     feed the animals, the livestock.

24        Q.   You went to Jahoc to feed the animals?

25        A.   No, we would go from Jahoc back to our homes to feed the animals.

Page 6572

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  What livestock did you keep?

 2        A.   I had three or four cows, about 30 pigs, about 100 chicken.  They

 3     all needed to be fed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And did you go every day from Jahoc to Meja?

 5        A.   No, I didn't go every day, but we went every other day or every

 6     third day to feed them.

 7        Q.   Was the livestock kept in pens?

 8        A.   Yes.  They were kept in pens until the 27th of April.  On the

 9     27th of April, I opened the gate, and they went wherever they wanted.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe it is time

12     for the break.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will adjourn now and resume at

14     11.00.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Pnishi, you told us that you have disability retirement due

22     to an operation, a surgery that you had.  Could you explain a bit what

23     was the surgery all about?

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, what is the possible relevance of

25     that question to the matters we have to decide?

Page 6573

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I can't answer that otherwise I

 2     would reveal my intention, but if you believe that this is not relevant,

 3     then I will skip this question and I will move on.  That's all right.  I

 4     will move on.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, when did you leave Ramoc to go towards Meja; what

 8     time was it?  I'm talking about April the 23rd, 1999.

 9        A.   It's not Ramoc but Jahoc.

10        Q.   Yes, you're right, I was mistaken.

11        A.   We are talking about the 27th of April.

12        Q.   No, I'm talking about April the 23rd.  No, no, actually, it was

13     the 27th.

14        A.   On the 27th of April at around 6.00 in the morning, I left Jahoc

15     with my wife and went to my village to feed the livestock.  I fed the

16     animals, then my son Mark came.  He asked me why I returned to the

17     village.  I told him that I went there to help.  And as of 7.00, the

18     offensive began.

19        Q.   When did you leave Jahoc?  What was the time?

20        A.   6.00.

21        Q.   And what was the time when you arrived at Meja?

22        A.   From the house where I was staying in Jahoc, my house is about

23     100 metres away.  As I said, the Trava river divides the two villages,

24     the bridge over Trava river, that is.

25        Q.   How did you go from Jahoc to your own house?

Page 6574

 1        A.   On foot.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   You are welcome.

 4        Q.   You said that you saw that the army surrounded the entire area.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 00035

 6     on the screen.

 7        Q.   Could you encircle the area that was at that time surrounded by

 8     the army?

 9        A.   It encompassed Meje, Madanaj, Rypaj, Orize.  This area.  This

10     area was surrounded by army and police.  If you want me, I can encircle

11     these villages.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And from your house when you arrived to your house at

13     7.00 a.m., you saw the -- you saw soldiers and policemen throughout this

14     entire area?

15        A.   Not in the entire area, but I saw their presence in Meje, Orize,

16     and Jahoc.  This area was encircled by army and police.  I guess they

17     took up their positions at night.  And in the morning the firing started.

18        Q.   And you saw thousands of soldiers and members of the police; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   When I went up on the second floor, I can see from there the

21     whole area at 2 kilometre distance.  I can see the whole area of Meje,

22     Orize, and Jahoc.  There were thousands of personnel and different types

23     of military vehicles.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, the soldier, the policeman that was

25     the nearest to you, how far from you was he?

Page 6575

 1        A.   The nearest to me were those who entered my courtyard, my house,

 2     the others were outside the wall.  There were others in the streets, on

 3     the intersections.  Many of them.  It was impossible to count them.

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm asking, at the time when you saw the army and

 5     the police that encircled this area, the policeman or the soldier that

 6     stood the closest to you at the time, how far was he from you?  So what

 7     was the distance between you and that person?

 8        A.   They were all around my house, next to the wall.  They were also

 9     on the streets, in the neighbourhoods.  Very near to where I was.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, were they already there at the time when you came to

11     your house?

12        A.   From the house of my godfather where I was staying up to the

13     bridge there was no police presence, and there were no police at my gate.

14     When I went inside to feed the animals, I noticed that they started to

15     advance and to fire their weapons.

16        Q.   The first time you saw them, how far were they from you?  This is

17     my question.

18        A.   I was inside my house on the second floor and in my courtyard,

19     whereas they were outside the courtyard next to -- or around the wall.

20     And then they entered my yard.  They came in.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, we'll come to those policemen or people wearing

22     uniforms that you are just describing in awhile, but now I'm talking

23     about point 5 on page 2 of your statement, or actually in Albanian

24     page 3, paragraph 1; and in Albanian language and on page 2, paragraph 5,

25     in the English version.

Page 6576

 1             So you did not mention any policemen and any soldiers in the

 2     surrounding area at the time when you came to your house, so you say, I

 3     don't know where they came from, probably they took positions overnight.

 4     So I'm just wondering, those that fired their arms, how far from you were

 5     they when you saw them?  If you can remember this.  If you can't, we'll

 6     move on.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I believe this question has been asked

 8     several times and the witness has given the answer that he is able to

 9     give regarding this question.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Carry on please, Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you describe that or can you not so we will move

13     on?

14        A.   As I already told you, I was in my courtyard, they were behind

15     the wall on the other side, 3 to 4 metres away.  I was inside the

16     courtyard; they were outside around the wall.

17        Q.   Could you tell me when you first saw Duzhmani, Kole where was

18     that?  Or could you possibly, first of all, mark your house, first of

19     all, where it currently stands?

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mark it on what, Mr. Djurdjic?

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] This document that still has not

22     been admitted into evidence, Your Honours.  So now we see the area where

23     he saw the police and the army, so I would just like to mark his house on

24     the map.

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, if you can't see it, please tell me, I can't see it,

Page 6577

 1     and we'll move on.  But if you can, please mark the position of your

 2     house?

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let us proceed.  It's quite okay.

 4     I would like to tender this document into evidence.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You need another map for me to be

 6     able to mark my house on it.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  This marked map will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be received as

 9     Exhibit D231.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, where was Duzhmani, Kole when you first saw him on

12     April the 27th?

13        A.   I was in my courtyard, Kole Duzhmani spent that night in Jahoc.

14     On his way back with his bicycle, in order to be able to go to Korenice

15     he had to pass by my house, by that road.  He was stopped by the police

16     at the Pashk Markaj's house.  The police took him with them from the

17     bridge.  And they stopped with him at the gate to my courtyard.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Your brother Gjelosh, did he also spends the previous

19     night at Racaj?

20        A.   Not Racaj, Jahoc; that's where he spent the night.

21        Q.   At Jahoc, actually.  At Jahoc.  And what happened with Kole later

22     on?

23        A.   Kole Markaj that morning was brought before my gate at gunpoint.

24     They asked him whose house is this, he said this is Martin Pnishi's

25     house.  They knocked at the door.  I went to open the gate.  The

Page 6578

 1     policeman asked me, Who is inside your house?  I replied that my family

 2     was there.  And then they said, Take your family out; we are going to

 3     burn the house.

 4             I went straight to my house, collected my wife, placed her in a

 5     wheelbarrow, and I asked them, Shall I join the convoy towards Albania?

 6     And they said, No, no, you should stay here.  The policemen were staying

 7     a little bit further.  It was the soldiers who did the talking.  They

 8     said to me, No, your place is here in the well.  They told me to jump

 9     into the well.  I refused.  I said to them, No, I'm not going to jump.

10     If you want to kill me, kill me here on the spot.

11             They started to hit me, to kick me.  I fell on the ground.  They

12     continued to kick me while I was on the ground.  And at that time,

13     someone outside behind the wall was speaking on the radio, communicating

14     with these people who were with me.  They asked these people whether

15     Gjelosh Kola was present.  They said, Yes, Kola is here.  And then they

16     said, Destroy him.  While I was still on the ground, they took Kole -

17     they mixed up the name of Kole Markaj and Gjelosh Kola.

18             They took Kole to my brother's house where they executed him.  In

19     the meantime I what had gone to the second floor of my house, and I was

20     observing from there what was going on.  I could see the convoys coming

21     from the direction of Korenice, from Junik, how they were executed, and

22     so on.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me, this radio transmitter that you

24     saw and heard, what did it look like?

25        A.   It was a radio transmitter like the ones that were used at the

Page 6579

 1     time by the army and the police.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you use that radio transmitter when you worked as

 3     a policeman; is that the kind of transmitter that you used?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me in which language did they talk, those people

 6     standing in front of your yard with the ones who were inside your yard?

 7     What language did they use?

 8        A.   Those from behind the wall asked if Gjelosh Kola was there.  It

 9     wasn't Serbian or Croatian.  The language they used resembled the Russian

10     language.  If they spoke in Serbian or Croatian, I would have been able

11     to understand it because I understand this language very well.

12             It was kind of a mixed language.  It wasn't pure Serbian, I would

13     say.  That's where from I could tell that they were not members of the

14     Serb army.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm asking which language was used by people

16     standing outside your courtyard when they spoke to those people who were

17     inside your courtyard?

18        A.   Those who were outside spoke Serbian.  I understood what they

19     said very well.  However, the two soldiers who were in my courtyard, they

20     didn't speak Serbian.  Their reply was in a language that resembled

21     Russian.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And you, when you spoke to those soldiers who were

23     inside your courtyard, which language did you and them use?

24        A.   I addressed them in Serbian.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And when they addressed you?

Page 6580

 1        A.   They couldn't speak Serbian very well.  They mixed Serbian with

 2     Russian.  I could tell very well that they were not Serbs.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   You are welcome.

 5        Q.   But those people told you to leave your house but not to go

 6     towards Albania, and since you were afraid, what was it that you did?

 7        A.   The Serb policemen were the first ones to speak in Serbian.  They

 8     told me to remove my family from the house.  I placed my wife in the

 9     wheelbarrow, I told my son to push the wheelbarrow, and personally I

10     asked them whether I should join the convoy to go to Albania.  That's

11     what I wanted to do initially.  But in their reply they said, Your place

12     is here in the well.

13             They removed the cover of the well and pointed into the well,

14     said to me that that's where I belonged.  And when I refused, they

15     started to kick me.  I fell on the ground, and they continued to kick me.

16     This is what happened.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So your son and your wife left Meja and went towards

18     Jahoc?

19        A.   That happened at 9.00 or 10:00 when we left towards Jahoc.  The

20     army and the police gathered at the school, that's where the main point

21     was.  As they left towards the school, there was no policemen or soldier

22     near my house, that's where we left.  I dragged my wife, placed her in

23     the wheelbarrow, and we proceeded towards the bridge, towards Jahoc.

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, a short while ago you said that your son placed your

25     wife in a wheelbarrow to take her away.  Where were they at the time when

Page 6581

 1     you climbed to the second floor of your house?

 2        A.   My wife and my son at that time were in front of the entry door

 3     or front door.  The policemen executed Kole, then set the house on fire.

 4     Kole didn't leave, and that's when I was sure that he was killed because

 5     I heard gun-shots previously.  Then I went to the place where my son and

 6     wife were.  And after the army and the police withdrew from the area

 7     where my house was and went towards the school, we decided to leave and

 8     we set off in the direction of Jahoc.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, when you were by the well, where were your son and

10     wife?

11        A.   Right there watching what they were doing to me.  Kole Duzhmani

12     also was there.  Two or 3 metres away from where I was.

13        Q.   Did your son and wife come up to you when these persons left the

14     yard?

15        A.   I got up myself.  When they left my courtyard and went to my

16     brother's house, I went on the second floor to see what was going on

17     around the house.

18        Q.   And what were your wife and son doing all that time?

19        A.   They were staying there.  Sometimes they would come up to where I

20     was to look around as well like me.  My wife couldn't, but my son would

21     come and join me where I was.

22        Q.   How far is your brother's house from your house?

23        A.   There is just a wall that's between two houses.  They are next

24     door practically.

25        Q.   And what is the distance between the houses?

Page 6582

 1        A.   Ten metres or so.

 2        Q.   When you left the yard, when you went out, who did you find in

 3     the street along with your wife and your son?

 4        A.   When I left to go to Jahoc, there was nobody on the street.  No

 5     police, no army, everybody has left and went to the school.  There was no

 6     one between my house and my godfather's house.  No one at the bridge as

 7     well.

 8        Q.   And when did the army and the police leave?

 9        A.   It was about 9.00 when they withdrew from the area and went to

10     the school where the main check-point was.

11        Q.   Tell me, did you see that your brother's house was burning?

12        A.   Of course I did because there was a kind of noise that we heard,

13     like a puffing noise, and then seconds later we could see the flames and

14     the smoke.  It was just 10 metres away from where I was staying, how

15     could I not see it?

16        Q.   Thank you, what time was it when the house was set on fire?

17        A.   It was around 8.00, 9.00.  Maybe 9.30.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And did your brother's house burn?  Did it burn down?

19        A.   Nothing remained.  All the rooms were burned.  I think they used

20     incendiary devices to set the rooms on fire.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Was the house burning when you set out for Jahoc?

22        A.   It kept burning throughout the night until the next morning.

23     Everything inside burned.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   You're welcome.

Page 6583

 1        Q.   Your house was not set on fire, was it?

 2        A.   My house and my other brother's house was not burned.

 3        Q.   You returned to Meja 17 -- that is, 19 days later, didn't you?

 4        A.   19 days later because I couldn't go to my house before that.  I

 5     didn't dare.  There's only 100 metres between the house that I was

 6     staying and my own house in Meje, but I didn't dare go.

 7        Q.   Can you tell me the name of that brother whose house was burned

 8     down?

 9        A.   Gjelosh Pnishi.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And where was your brother on the 27th of April?

11        A.   Before and on the 27th of April, he was in Jahoc.  He did not

12     stay in his own house at that time.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When Kole was taken to your brother's house, it was

14     empty, wasn't it?  I mean, there was no one living there.

15        A.   No, it was my brother's wife who had also come to feed her

16     animals.  She had come with her son who was 12 years old at the time.

17        Q.   And when did she leave the house?

18        A.   Together with us.  On the 22nd of April this was, and after that

19     we did not return to our houses.  We would go every two or three days to

20     feed the animals.

21        Q.   You said she had come to feed the animals.  After she had done

22     that, when did she physically leave the house?

23        A.   She left the house when the police went inside her house with

24     Kole Markaj or Kole Duzhmani.  When the police went at her door, she

25     opened the door.  The police put a knife at her son's throat and

Page 6584

 1     threatened her and him, but then she fled together with her son and

 2     joined the people on the street.

 3        Q.   Did she go to Jahoc?

 4        A.   No, she went on the main road and joined the convoy of people

 5     that left towards Albania.  She did not come back.

 6        Q.   And what was the next time you saw her?

 7        A.   Two months later, or two and a half months later when they came

 8     back from Albania.

 9        Q.   Apart from you, your wife, and son, there were no other persons

10     in your house, were there?

11        A.   On that morning of the 27th of April, there was just us.  Myself,

12     my son and my wife.  As I told you earlier, my family were staying in

13     five different places.  My brother's -- my brother's children, they were

14     all staying in different places.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And you went from your house to Jahoc at a certain

16     point?  I forget what time it was.

17        A.   Yes.  It was about half past 9.00 in the morning.  Maybe 10:00.

18     Around that time.  I took my wife.  I was carrying her and my son was

19     walking behind me and we walked towards my godfather's house.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Apart from the people in your yard, our son and your

21     wife, you did not speak to anyone else that day while you were in Meja?

22        A.   There was nobody else to speak to.  As I told you, they took

23     Kole Duzhmani, then they left my house and there was nobody else where we

24     were.

25        Q.   If did you go into your brother's house, the one that was burned

Page 6585

 1     down when you returned 19 days later?

 2        A.   19 days later, the situation became a little bit calmer, and I

 3     decided to go have a look at my brother's house to see whether something

 4     could be salvaged.  I went with Frano, and we went to each and every

 5     room.  Everything had been burned.  And when we went to the kitchen, we

 6     found Kole Duzhmani still lying there.  Frano said, Look at the body.  We

 7     decided to have a look at the body just in case it was my brother,

 8     because we didn't know where he was, whether he had gone to Albania or

 9     not.  But it was not him.  It was Kole Markaj or Kole Duzhmani.

10             Then I went back to the house where I was staying, the house had

11     been totally destroyed -- not the walls and the cement, but everything

12     inside had been destroyed.

13             We asked permission from the police to bury Kole Duzhmani, and

14     they gave us that permission.  He was from Korenice, but we could not go

15     to Korenice to bury him, so we buried him in Jahoc.

16        Q.   And everything inside your brother's house had burned down.  What

17     about your property?

18        A.   No, nothing in my house was burned.  But it had been looted by

19     gypsies and Ashkalis, and I could see them looting my house from my

20     godfather's house.  They took everything of value that they could find,

21     and I didn't dare do anything about it.  I couldn't do anything about it.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Pnishi, I have no

23     further questions for you.

24             Thank you, Your Honour, I have completed my cross-examination.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 6586

 1             Ms. Kravetz, is there any re-examination?

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, Your Honour, I have no questions for the

 3     witness.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Pnishi, you'll be pleased to know that

 5     completes the questioning.  The Chamber would like to thank you for

 6     coming once again to The Hague and for the assistance you have been able

 7     to give to us.  We have your statement and the transcript of the evidence

 8     you gave when you were here last time as well as what you have said

 9     today, and we will consider all of that.

10             You may, of course, now return to your normal activities, and the

11     Court Officer will assist you to go.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, the next witness is

16     Mr. Ljubinko Cvetic, and he will be led by Mr. Stamp who, as I

17     understand, is on his way down to the court.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  While that is happening, could we

19     mention that it will be necessary to make an alteration to our sitting

20     times tomorrow.  We will sit from 9.00 until 12.30 with one, the normal

21     break, in the middle of that.  So that will be two full

22     one-and-a-half-hour sessions.  But we will adjourn at 12.30 and not sit

23     again tomorrow, resuming then on Wednesday at 9.00.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, Mr. Cvetic.  Good morning,

Page 6587

 1     Mr. Cvetic, are you able to hear me now?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, good morning.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you please read out the affirmation that is

 4     shown to you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Can you please sit down.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp has some questions for you.

10             Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12                           THE WITNESS:  LJUBINKO CVETIC

13                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Stamp:

15        Q.   Mr. Cvetic, can we start by you stating your full name and date

16     of birth.

17        A.   Ljubinko Cvetic.  Born 27 September, 1954.

18        Q.   And I understand, Mr. Cvetic, that you were formally a senior

19     member of the MUP Serbia, so could you please just tell us briefly about

20     your career just by telling us the positions that you've held and when,

21     from the beginning of your time in the MUP of Serbia?

22        A.   I've been with the MUP of Serbia from the 1st February, 1989.  I

23     was head of the joint Secretariat for Internal Affairs.  In 1990, on the

24     15th of April, I was appointed head of the Secretariat for Internal

25     Affairs Kragujevac.

Page 6588

 1             On the 12th August, 1996, I was relieved of that duty.  And on

 2     the 1st January, 1997, I was appointed, or rather, assigned to be head of

 3     SUP Kosovska Mitrovica.

 4        Q.   Kosovska Mitrovica in Kosova-Metohija?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Can we look at document 65 ter number 01880.

 7        Q.   I think that's your letter of appointment to the post in

 8     Kosovska Mitrovica Secretariat?

 9        A.   Yes, this is the decision to assign me to carry out the duties of

10     the head of SUP Kosovska Mitrovica.  It's not exactly an appointment,

11     it's the decision to send me there.

12        Q.   Who signed that decision?

13        A.   This decision was signed by deputy minister, head of sector,

14     Lieutenant-Colonel Stojkovic.  Stojicic, sorry, Radovan Stojicic.

15        Q.   Thank you.  How long did you remain in Kosovo as chief of

16     Kosovo Mitrovica SUP?

17        A.   Well, you see, pursuant to that decision, I was sent there as of

18     1st January, 1997, but in reality I went to Kosovo on the 16th December,

19     1996.  Pursuant to the decision on terminating my duties in Kosovo as of

20     30th April, 1999, I stopped carrying out those duties under the decision;

21     but in reality, I had stopped carrying out those duties on the 16th of

22     April, 1999, because it was the 16th of April, 1999, where a meeting was

23     held at the MUP staff in Pristina where it was communicated, in view of

24     the fact that I had completed the duties I was assigned to, that any

25     further need for me to continue there did not exist.  And another person

Page 6589

 1     was appointed to that job.

 2             I stayed with the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica until the

 3     28th of April because from the 16th of April until the 28th of April I

 4     was handing over my duties to my successor.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Since you mentioned the decision or the decision to

 6     terminate your time there, could we look at 01884.

 7             MR. STAMP:  And before we proceed to that one, could 01880 be

 8     received in evidence, Your Honours.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be received as

12     Exhibit P1036.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             MR. STAMP:  And if we could look briefly at 01884.  If we could

14     scroll down on both the English and the B/C/S to the end.  The end is on

15     page 2 on the English copy.

16        Q.   That is a decision terminating your tenure at

17     SUP Kosovo Mitrovica?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And it's signed by?

20        A.   The decision was signed by the assistant minister, chief of

21     department Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.

22        Q.   And you know his signature?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You said you were told at a meeting on the 16th of April that you

25     were not required anymore.  Who told you that at this meeting?

Page 6590

 1        A.   At that meeting, there were chiefs of Secretariats, the minister

 2     of the interior, the chief of the department of public security, there

 3     was the president of the interim council of Kosovo and Metohija, and

 4     president of the communist party department, late Mr. Zivkovic, and I was

 5     told this by head of the department of public security

 6     General Djordjevic.  He said that there were certain changes in human

 7     resources in different Secretariats in the area of Kosova-Metohija, and

 8     he mentioned the changes in Kosovska Mitrovica SUP and in Pristina SUP as

 9     well as in Urosevac SUP.

10             He informed us Ljubinko Cvetic will terminate to be the chief of

11     the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica, the position where he was sent to on the

12     1st of January, 1997, because he completed his tasks and therefore there

13     was no need for his further engagement.  The chief of

14     Kosovska Mitrovica SUP was going to be the previous chief of Vucitrn OUP,

15     Mr. Janicijevic.  And the previous chief of the Pristina SUP also was

16     terminated at that position, and at that position of the Pristina SUP

17     head was going to be carried out by Mr. Bogoljub Janicijevic who was

18     previously head of Urosevac SUP.  At the same time, the new head of

19     Urosevac SUP was going to be Mr. Bozidar Vilic.

20             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Bozidar Ilic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All this was conveyed to us by the

23     head of public security department.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could we look, briefly, Mr. Cvetic, at the structure

25     of the MUP, the public security section of the MUP.  Which position --

Page 6591

 1     well, you've already said that the head of the public security sector was

 2     assistant minister Djordjevic.  What bodies or organs fell under him or

 3     were subordinated to him?

 4             MR. STAMP:  And as you speak, could we bring up P357 the Rules of

 5     Internal Organisation of the MUP.

 6        Q.   I'm asking you, Mr. Cvetic, what organs or bodies were

 7     subordinate to Mr. Djordjevic as head of the public service department of

 8     the MUP, or public security department of the MUP?

 9             MR. STAMP:  Could we move to Article 2 of this document, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Djordjevic -- actually, the

11     public security department of the MUP of Serbia within its composition

12     had the following organisational units:  At the seat of the ministry

13     there was the police administration; secondly, the criminal police

14     administration; thirdly, traffic police administration; fourthly,

15     operational duty centre; fifth, the administration for communications and

16     encryptions; then the administration for analysis and administration for

17     IT or computers.  So this was at the ministry's headquarters.  All the

18     Secretariats of the interior in the territory of the Republic of Serbia -

19     and there were 33 such Secretariats in total - were linked to the public

20     security department.  The head of that department was Mr. Djordjevic.

21        Q.   Very well.  If we could just look at the rules quickly.

22             MR. STAMP:  Let's move to Article 13.  It's at page 9 of the

23     English, and it's page 9 to 10 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   I think this is difficult to read.  I'll see if I can find a hard

25     copy for you.

Page 6592

 1             Do you remember that Article 13 lists the organisational units

 2     that were at the seat of the ministry in Belgrade?

 3        A.   Yes, and I listed them.  Maybe I didn't list all of them, but

 4     those were the ones I could remember.  But in these rules in Article 11,

 5     it says as follows:

 6             "At the seat of the ministry there shall be the following

 7     organisational units:  Crime police administration, police

 8     administration, traffic police administration, operation centre, border

 9     police administration, fire prevention police administration, analysis

10     administration, information technology administration, communications

11     administration, administration for joint affairs of the ministry, and

12     board and lodging administration."

13             These are the organisational units at the level of the ministry,

14     but not all of them belonged to the public security sector.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that once

17     again we have a problem with these rules.  As the witness just read from

18     the hard copy, he read that this was Article 11.

19             I apologise, Mr. Witness, is that correct?  You read Article 11?

20     Yes, well that particular Rules of Interior Organisation is not valid.

21     Mr. Stamp when he read said Article 13 and this indeed were the rules

22     that were in effect at the time.  So this is supposed to be Article 13.

23     And if he sees this as Article 11, then this is not the correct rules.

24     And the correct rules has been admitted into evidence as Exhibit P357.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, the document is on the screen in

Page 6593

 1     both languages, it is Article 13.  So you are correct.  You may have

 2     heard a translation or there may have been a misspeaking of Article 11

 3     for 13, but the document which is the exhibit is Article 13.  Thank you.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  However, the

 5     hard copy that was given to the witness is a wrong document and this is

 6     why he read this out from a wrong document.

 7             MR. STAMP:

 8        Q.   Mr. Cvetic, the article which you read that lists the

 9     organisational unit, which article is it?

10        A.   I apologise, I was mistaken.  I apologise to the Defence counsel.

11     This was not Article 11, but rather Article 13.  So I apologise for this.

12     This hard copy is also very difficult to read.

13             But there was no other error.  Even without these rules, I stated

14     which were the organisational units at the level of the ministry's

15     headquarters which belong to the public security sector.  And there is

16     nothing different there.  So the organisational units which I listed

17     without having the rules in front of me are the organisational units

18     which belonged to the public security sector.

19             Maybe I skipped some of them.  For example, I have skipped fire

20     prevention police administration and border police administration.

21     However, the administration for joints affairs of the ministry and board

22     and lodging administration did not belong to the public security sector.

23     These were some joint services that were used by the entire MUP as far as

24     I knew at the time.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Just look at item 2, the police administration.  Who

Page 6594

 1     was head of that administration, do you know?

 2        A.   Head of the police administration was General Obrad Stevanovic.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5        Q.   I heard the witness say something, but I did not hear an

 6     interpretation.

 7        A.   Yes, I wanted to say that Mr. Obrad Stevanovic was at the same

 8     time an assistant minister.  And at the position of the head of the

 9     police administration, people were replaced.  And for a certain period,

10     Mr. Stevanovic held this position.

11        Q.   In 1999 and 1998 did he hold that position?

12        A.   In 1998, yes.  In 1999, I believe he was replaced.  Somebody else

13     was the head of that administration, but I'm not entirely sure who that

14     was.  Mr. Obrad Stevanovic, however, was an assistant minister.  And in

15     1998, he indeed was head of the police administration.  At the same time,

16     he was also commander of all the Special Police units, so-called PJPs.

17        Q.   Apart from the organisational units at the seat of the ministry,

18     there were other organisational units of which you headed one, the

19     Secretariats of Interior; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to Article 2 of this document.  I

22     think it's on page 4 in the English version, and -- I am sorry, I'm not

23     sure of the page in the B/C/S version.  It would be then page 3, the

24     previous page in English.

25        Q.   Article 2 of the rules which I think speaks for itself, this

Page 6595

 1     article, sets out the functions of the Secretariats of the Interior.  And

 2     Article 3 lists the 33 Secretariats of the Interior that were set up for

 3     administrative purposes in Serbia; is that correct?

 4             MR. STAMP:  If we could scroll in English to page 4, now.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  But Article 2

 6     where it talks about tasks following within the purview of the Ministry

 7     of the Interior, these are the tasks taken over from the Law on Internal

 8     Affairs, so these are the tasks that are stipulated in the

 9     Law on Internal Affairs.  And Article 3 indeed mentions the

10     organisational units within the territory of the Republic of Serbia.

11     Within the territory of the Republic of Serbia, there were

12     33 Secretariats, each of them encompassing the territory of certain

13     municipalities.

14             MR. STAMP:

15        Q.   And how many in Serbia?  Sorry, how many in Kosovo?

16        A.   In the territory of Kosovo, there were seven Secretariats.

17        Q.   And just as an example using your Secretariat Kosovska Mitrovica,

18     can you describe its territorial jurisdiction?

19        A.   The Secretariat in Kosovska Mitrovica was established to cover

20     the territory of the district of Kosovska Mitrovica and it covered the

21     following municipality:  Leposavic, Zvecan, Zubin Potok, Vucitrn, Srbica,

22     and Kosovska Mitrovica where its seat also was.  But at Leposavic,

23     Srbica, and Vucitrn, there were departments of the interior.  And at

24     Zvecan and Zubin Potok, there were police stations.

25        Q.   The departments of interior that you mentioned and the police

Page 6596

 1     station that were subordinate to each SUP, they are, I take it, listed in

 2     Article 4 of these rules; do you recall that?

 3        A.   Please allow me to have a look at Article 4.  Yes, that is

 4     correct.

 5        Q.   We see, for example, your SUP Kosovo Mitrovica is at item 11 of

 6     Article 4?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Could we bring up document 02555.

 9        Q.   This is an organogram of the structure of the MUP.  I'm sorry,

10     it's in English, so I may have to explain one or two aspects of it to

11     you.  But I think you can understand most of the departments referred to

12     here by the acronyms used.  At the top we have the minister and

13     subordinate to him would be the state security department headed by

14     Rade Markovic and the public security department headed by

15     Vlastimir Djordjevic.

16             Now, to the right of that there is a box with police

17     administration headed by Obrad Stevanovic.  Can you tell us if that is

18     correct having regard to your earlier answers and to the rules which

19     indicate that the police administration was one of the organisational

20     units of the public security department?  Is that correct there or should

21     it be subordinate to the public security department?

22        A.   From this diagram which I can see on the screen, I can conclude

23     as follows:  That the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia was organised in

24     two branches.  The first one being the state security sector or

25     department and the second one the public security sector.  Within the

Page 6597

 1     state security sector, here we have an organisational unit which belonged

 2     to that sector; and within the public security sector, we can see the

 3     organisational units, and these are special anti-terrorist units,

 4     operational sweep groups, and Special Police units.  And all the

 5     Secretariats, seven of them, in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

 6             In parallel to this, the public security -- in parallel to the

 7     public security sector, there is also the police administration.  The

 8     police administration cannot be placed at the same level as the public

 9     security sector because it falls within the remit of the public security

10     sector and it is actually one of the organisational elements of the

11     public security sector.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We also see a line here from the

13     Secretariats of the Interior going to the MUP staff.  Were the

14     Secretariats of the Interior subordinate to the MUP staff, and if -- can

15     you also explain the relationship of subordination with the public

16     security department seat or headquarters in Belgrade?

17        A.   You see, the Secretariats for the Interior are organisational

18     units of the Ministry of the Interior; and the MUP staff in Pristina,

19     this is a mid-command between the Ministry of the Interior and the

20     Secretariats for the Interior in Kosovo and Metohija.  So this MUP staff

21     was established simply for the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, and it

22     functions as an intermediary command between the Ministry and the

23     Secretariats.

24             So the Secretariats reported at the same time to the

25     Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade and to the MUP staff in Pristina.

Page 6598

 1     And they received information in the same way, in the same way in which

 2     they reported about their activities.

 3        Q.   I take it from what you are saying, that the

 4     Secretariats of the Interior were subordinate to the MUP staff, it being

 5     an intermediate level of command, but they were also subordinate to the

 6     public service -- public security department headquarters in Belgrade; is

 7     my understanding correct?

 8        A.   All Secretariats were subordinate to the public security sector

 9     and the MUP staff in Pristina was also subordinate to the public security

10     sector.  The head of the public security sector established the MUP in --

11     staff in Pristina in the first place by a decision he made.  And he also

12     stipulated his responsibilities, tasks, and obligations.  Therefore, all

13     the Secretariats in Kosovo and the MUP staff in Pristina were subordinate

14     to the public security sector.

15        Q.   I see in the boxes for the Secretariats of the Interior the names

16     of persons.  Are these the persons who -- are these the person who were

17     head of these Secretariats at the time you were there or at least in

18     1999?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And there are some boxes for some special units above that, the

21     JSO, the SAJ, the OPG, and the PJP.  Well, as least as far as the JSO and

22     SAJ are concerned.  Are the persons there mentioned as far as you

23     understand -- withdrawn.

24             Were the persons there mentioned the heads of those organisations

25     in 1999?

Page 6599

 1        A.   I would appreciate a higher degree of specification of the

 2     question.  I told you already that the names listed as heads of

 3     Secretariat are correct, but I don't see any other persons.  Oh, I do.

 4     The unit for special operations, yes, that is indeed the person who was

 5     at its head, or rather, the commander of the unit for special operations.

 6     The special anti-terrorist unit, the person shown in the box was head of

 7     the section for special units within the police administration.  And each

 8     special anti-terrorist unit had its own commander, there were three of

 9     them, three such units.

10             As for operational sweep groups, they do not belong with special

11     units.  And neither do Special Police units, or specialised police units,

12     PJP.  They cannot be considered as Special Police units.

13             As for anti-terrorist units, I said there were three of them.

14     And there was a head of section who coordinated their work and did all

15     the planning.  That was the person whose name was seen in the box.

16        Q.   So the head of the special anti-terrorist unit was

17     Zivko Trajkovic and the special operations unit, the JSO, was

18     Milorad Lukovic?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. STAMP:  We'll get back to these units, but I think now,

21     Your Honours, it's time for a break.  Could we tender this document,

22     Your Honour.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the document shall be admitted as

25     Exhibit P1037.  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 6600

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  We must have the second break now.  We resume at

 2     1.00.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cvetic, can you briefly describe for us what were the PJPs or

10     Special Police units?

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honour, that it is

13     the right time to clarify one thing that has to do with the

14     interpretation and translation and that has been going on for years now.

15     It concerns the PJPs, Special Police units.  In some trials this was

16     dealt with by using the acronym PJP, the Serbian acronym so the witness

17     understands what it means.  In Serbian actually there are two words,

18     "specijalna" which in English would be "special," and "posebna" is a

19     different word, and I believe the English word for that is "separate."

20     And to avoid confusion, especially when we are talking about units for

21     special operations, SAJ, and PJP, I believe we should -- when talking

22     about these specialised police units, PJP, we should either use the

23     acronym PJP or translated as Separate Police units.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Mr. Djurdjic.  At this moment the

25     Chamber would not be in a position to know whether one of those is

Page 6601

 1     preferable to another, but we all seem to understand PJP.

 2             Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Could you just describe the organisation and the function of the

 5     PJP?

 6        A.   Within the framework of the police, it's an organisational

 7     unit -- in fact, as organisational units within the public security

 8     sector there are regular police forces; there are specialised police

 9     units, PJP; and also special anti-terrorist units.  Regular police forces

10     are forces within the Secretariat for Internal Affairs, that are used to

11     control the territory to hold up law and order, and protect citizens and

12     property.  Whereas PJP are better equipped and better trained than

13     regular police, and these PJP are formed in larger population centres to

14     deal with more complex security problems.

15             To be specific, PJP were established in 1992 or early 1993, and

16     they were called "Posebne Jedenice Milicije," PJM.  Later they were

17     renamed into PJP.  In Belgrade, there were two detachments of PJP; in

18     Novi Sad, one detachment; in Kragujevac, one detachment; in Uzice, one

19     detachment; and one detachment in Nis.  And there was also a Kosovo

20     detachment in based in Pristina.

21             The Kosovo detachment of PJP based in Pristina was there until

22     June 1998.  In June 1998, the Kosovo detachment of PJP grew into the

23     124th Intervention Brigade, whereas special anti-terrorist units are the

24     most elite units of the Ministry of Interior, namely, of its public

25     security sector.  And they are intended only for the gravest security

Page 6602

 1     problems, that is fighting terrorism.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We'll get to the special anti-terrorist units, let's

 3     if we can, just focus on the PJPs for a moment.  Were there PJPs attached

 4     to the Secretariats of the Interior?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness sit closer to the

 6     microphones, please.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, from each

 8     Secretariat of the Interior -- let me start again.  Each

 9     Secretariat of the Interior in the Republic of Serbia, assigned part of

10     its personnel to the PJPs.  For instance, to form the detachment in

11     Kragujevac, personnel was given from Kragujevac, from Jagodina, from

12     Zajecar, from Bor, from Pozarevac, and from Smederevo.  The same is true

13     of the other detachments of PJPs established in territory of Serbia.

14        Q.   Now, the detachment that was established in Pristina and which

15     became the 124th Intervention Brigade, how was that manned?

16        A.   That detachment was filled in keeping with the same methodology

17     that applied to the formation of PJPs in other areas of Serbia.  From all

18     Secretariats of the Interior in the territory of Kosovo, various

19     Secretariats provided a certain number of personnel depending on size.

20     For example, Kosovska Mitrovica SUP provided some personnel to form this

21     detachment.  Some Secretariats provided a platoon, others a company-size

22     unit.  All these formed the Kosovo detachment of PJPs, which became in

23     June 1998 a re-organised 124th Intervention Brigade.

24             To conclude, all Secretariats from Kosovo and Metohija provided

25     part of their personnel to the Kosovo detachment of PJPs, depending on

Page 6603

 1     the size of the Secretariat.

 2        Q.   Did the Secretariats themselves have PJP units that were attached

 3     to the Secretariats themselves?

 4        A.   Organisationally speaking, yes, because the personnel still

 5     remained part of the Secretariat.  And those people were assigned to

 6     those Secretariats in terms of human resources.  But these units could

 7     not be used by the Secretariats without the approval of the detachment

 8     command, and the orders were given by the staff or the ministry and

 9     handed down to the command of the detachment.

10        Q.   You mentioned earlier that the PJPs had responsibility for more

11     complex tasks.  Could you just describe what you mean by that, what sort

12     of tasks were the PJP used for?

13        A.   First of all, those were tasks such as dealing with disturbances

14     of law and order on a larger scale, dealing with clashes and fighting

15     terrorism, preventing disorder.  Those were mainly the tasks in which

16     PJPs were engaged.

17        Q.   In 1998 and in 1999 were all the personnel, the PJP personnel in

18     Kosovo attached to SUPs in Kosovo or were they replaced with PJP

19     personnel outside of Kosovo?

20        A.   Well, in 1998 and 1999 PJPs from all parts of Serbia were engaged

21     in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.  All detachments formed within

22     the Republic of Serbia within the framework of the Ministry of Interior

23     were engaged in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999.

24             Those are the detachments that I listed in my previous testimony,

25     two detachments from Belgrade, one from Novi Sad, one from Kragujevac,

Page 6604

 1     one from Nis, and the Kosovo detachment which later became the 124th

 2     Brigade.  Those were A units, A-class units.

 3             In addition to the PJPs from these detachments, there were also

 4     B-class units.  To be specific, in Kosovska Mitrovica there were two PJP

 5     detachments, the 35th detachment and the 85th detachment.  And that was

 6     true of other Secretariats in the territory of Kosovo as well.

 7             PJP units from the complement of Secretariats of Internal Affairs

 8     in Kosovo and Metohija were part of the Kosovo detachment and later

 9     became the 124th Intervention Brigade.  They were engaged not only in

10     their own territory, but throughout Kosovo, as were other detachments

11     that came from the Republic of Serbia proper.

12        Q.   Who or which organ had the power or the authority to mobilise the

13     PJP for combat activities?

14        A.   Well, decisions to engage PJPs were made exclusively on ministry

15     level, and only the minister of the interior was able to take such

16     decisions or a person authorised by the minister.  It was usually the

17     chief of the public security sector who would issue an order to mobilise

18     the PJPs, or in other words to order their engagement.

19        Q.   And when they were on the ground in manoeuvres or operations, who

20     commanded them in Kosovo?

21        A.   You see, we should make a distinction between a person who is

22     able to take the decision to use PJPs and the person who commands the

23     PJPs.  Command on the ground over PJPs was within the exclusive authority

24     of the PJP commander.  The commander of a PJP unit commands that unit on

25     the ground, but the PJP unit commander has no authority to make the

Page 6605

 1     decision to use the PJP unit.  He is able to take command and to issue

 2     orders only when a decision had been taken by a superior commanding

 3     officer to engage that PJP unit.

 4        Q.   What were -- if we could move on, what were the OPGs?  And I

 5     think I say with trepidation that that's an acronym for

 6     Operation Sweep Group?

 7        A.   Yes.  Operational sweep groups or operational pursuit groups were

 8     established within Secretariats in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

 9     In other Secretariats covered by the Ministry of Interior, there were no

10     operational sweep groups.

11             In early December 1998, a decision was taken at the MUP staff in

12     Pristina that every Secretariat in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija

13     should allocate 10 to 15 men, the best trained and the best equipped ones

14     from the regular complement of the police force or from the PJPs.  And

15     these men would undergo additional training in the duration of 10 to 15

16     days in special training centres outside Kosovo.  And these operational

17     sweep groups were within each Secretariat.  And each Secretariat had a

18     commander of the Operational Sweep Group.

19             In other words, all these operational sweep groups were headed by

20     the assistant head of MUP staff in Pristina in charge of special

21     operations.

22             To conclude, operational sweep groups were better trained and

23     better equipped than PJPs, but they were not better trained or better

24     equipped than special anti-terrorist units, they were something in

25     between.

Page 6606

 1        Q.   Did the assistant head of the MUP staff in Pristina who was in

 2     charge of special operations who headed these OPGs, what was his name?

 3        A.   His name was Goran Radosavljevic.

 4        Q.   And you now mentioned the special anti-terrorist units, could you

 5     describe briefly and basically their organisation and their functions?

 6        A.   As far as I was aware special anti-terrorist units were

 7     established in the city of Belgrade, that is the SUP of the city of

 8     Belgrade inn the SUP of Novi Sad and the SUP of Pristina.  Therefore,

 9     there were three special anti-terrorist units.  Their mission in

10     Kosovo and Metohija was exclusively to fight terrorism and to participate

11     in anti-terrorist actions.

12        Q.   And lastly, briefly, the JSO, what were they, and what

13     organisational department did they belong to?

14        A.   The special operations unit was established within the public

15     security sector and belonged only to that sector.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  They were

17     established within the state security sector, and the public security

18     sector had no authority over it.  There was only one special operations

19     unit.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it was headed by the person

21     whose name is shown in this schematic, Milorad Lukovic.

22             MR. STAMP:

23        Q.   On this chart before you we see that there's a line between the

24     special operations unit and the MUP staff for Kosovo.  Was there any

25     relationship, and if so what was it, between the special operations unit

Page 6607

 1     and the MUP staff of Kosovo which was headed by General Lukic was part

 2     of -- or JV, that is, public security department?

 3        A.   Sorry, are you asking me about special anti-terrorist units or

 4     about the special operations unit?

 5        Q.   The special operations unit, the JSO.  What was the relationship,

 6     if any, between them and the MUP staff of Kosovo?  The MUP staff of

 7     Kosovo --

 8        A.   I said already that the MUP staff for Kosovo had no authority

 9     over the JSO.

10        Q.   And --

11        A.   Coordination, joint meetings, analysing the security situation,

12     consultations about particular assignments, all that existed; but the MUP

13     staff did not have the authority to use -- to make the decision to use

14     the JSO for special operations.

15        Q.   Now, what was the relationship and the hierarchy between the PJPs

16     and the public security department headquarters in Belgrade?  Or may I

17     just rephrase the question.  What was the relationship and the hierarchy

18     of command between the PJPs in Kosovo and the public security department

19     in Belgrade?

20        A.   Well, the public security sector of the MUP of Serbia was the

21     only one who could take decisions to use, to employ the PJPs in

22     Kosovo and Metohija.  While the commander of those units was in the hands

23     of unit commanders.

24        Q.   If we could move on.  Can you tell us briefly about the number,

25     the total number of police personnel in Kosovo between 1998 up to the

Page 6608

 1     NATO intervention in March 1999, and tell us if it fluctuated and why?

 2        A.   Well, in July 1998, anti-terrorist operations took place in

 3     Kosova and Metohija.  At that time in the territory of

 4     Kosovo and Metohija, there were 14.570 policemen.  These operations

 5     lasted from the 25th of July until end September, 1998.  With the signing

 6     of the Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement, there was a reduction in the number

 7     of police personnel in Kosovo and Metohija.  The number was reduced by

 8     4.500.  To be more precise, after the Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement was

 9     signed, 10.021 policemen remained in Kosova-Metohija.

10        Q.   When was this agreement signed, do you recall?

11        A.   It was signed in October of 1998, and in October this reduction

12     took place.  It was in the second half of the month of October.

13        Q.   And did the number of 10.000 plus policemen as of October 1998

14     remain the same going into 1999 or was there any -- or were there any

15     changes?

16        A.   Well, later in early 1999, or more precisely in March of 1999,

17     there were some changes because we were threatened to -- we had immediate

18     threat of war.  And once the state of war was officially proclaimed,

19     there was a change and the number was increased.

20        Q.   Can you describe further about when, if you can recall a date,

21     did the mobilisation to increase the numbers begin, and what were the

22     numbers eventually after the policemen were mobilised?

23        A.   The mobilisation, as a strategic act, encompasses two periods:

24     the preparation of mobilisation and the execution of mobilisation.

25             The preparation started earlier, it started in early 1999, or

Page 6609

 1     more precisely, in February of 1999.  And the execution of the

 2     mobilisation started in March of 1999, that is, at a meeting held in the

 3     MUP headquarters in Pristina held on the 17th of March, 1999,

 4     General Lukic stated that all the Secretariats should prepare and

 5     undertake all the necessary measures to go forward with mobilisation of

 6     the members of the reserve police forces, so that the ratio between

 7     active policemen and reserve policemen should be one to one.

 8             More specifically, for SUP in Kosovska Mitrovica, this meant the

 9     following:  In SUP Kosovska Mitrovica at the time we had 665 police

10     officers, and we had to mobilise additional 665 reserve policemen in

11     order to achieve this ratio of 1 to 1.

12             Furthermore, he said that given that the negotiations at

13     Rambouillet were very difficult, it could be realistically expected that

14     we could have an act of aggression.  At the very first sign that there

15     will be an aggression, or the very first sign will be the withdrawal of

16     the verifying mission from Kosovo.

17        Q.   Yes, we'll discuss that further later.  For the time being, can

18     we just see if we can establish figures.  About how many policemen or

19     what was the number of policemen approximately in Kosovo after

20     mobilisation in March 1999?

21        A.   Well, the number was the same as in 1998, and this is 14.571.

22        Q.   And if you could tell us more precisely, I think you can, about

23     your SUP in March after the mobilisation.  How many policemen were there

24     in total after mobilisation was completed?

25        A.   At Kosovska Mitrovica SUP there were regular police forces, then

Page 6610

 1     PJPs that were sent to Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, the 35th [Realtime

 2     transcript read in error, "55th"] and the 85th detachment, and also we

 3     had reserve police units that were trained in June of 1998 to be able to

 4     defend settlements, inhabited settlements.  So each inhabited settlement

 5     in the territory of Kosova, which also means in the territory of SUP of

 6     Kosovska Mitrovica, had a Serb police unit.  The regular police units of

 7     the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica and members of PJPs, there were in total

 8     1.990; and in reserve police units, we had a total of 6.034.  So in total

 9     8.033.

10             This was the number of armed police officers in the territory of

11     SUP Kosovska Mitrovica.

12             MR. STAMP:  Before I proceed, Your Honours, just to point out

13     that at line 7 of this page, I think the witness said the 35th and the

14     85th detachment.

15        Q.   We are going to get to the reserve police units later, these were

16     6.000 plus men, I think you said.  But just explain briefly for us what

17     was the distinction between a reserve policeman and a member of a reserve

18     police unit?

19        A.   Reserve policemen could be reserves to the regular police units

20     or reserves to the reserve police units.  Reserve police units had a

21     lower degree of training, lower degree of equipment, and weapons in

22     comparison to the regular police units.  These regular police units were

23     subordinated to the Secretariats, so they were not tasked to defend

24     inhabited settlements as were the reserve police units.

25             The reserve police units did not even have an entire uniform,

Page 6611

 1     they just had parts of uniforms, for example, hats, possibly shirts or

 2     belts and so on.  Reserve policemen on the other hand had the entire

 3     uniform.

 4        Q.   And when you say that the reserve police units were engaged to

 5     defend settlements, what do you mean by settlements?

 6        A.   When I say inhabited settlements, I'm talking about various

 7     settlements within the territory of a municipality, so it's a village or

 8     a local commune.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at 0224 quickly, please.  01224, I

11     believe.  And go to page 2 in both, please.  We are on the wrong page.

12     Could I just find it.  Could we go to page 2, page 3 in the English.  I

13     apologise for this, Your Honour, I had the number in the binder but

14     apparently the document was taken out of the binder.

15             Your Honours, having regard to the time, I think I could move on

16     and I could get back to this tomorrow when I can find the -- find my copy

17     of the document.

18        Q.   I'd like you to briefly describe for us what the security

19     situation in Kosovo was in 1998.  You told us about anti-terrorist

20     operations that took place from July to September or October 1998.  Were

21     there any actions in your area, anti-terrorist actions in your area

22     before that time?

23        A.   Well, when I spoke, I said that the anti-terrorist operations

24     started on July the 25th, 1998, and they lasted until the end of

25     September of that year.  The security situation in Kosovo was very

Page 6612

 1     difficult and very complicated.  The terrorism was expanding.  We had

 2     very many terrorist attacks against members of the police forces, but

 3     also against members of the army, Serbians, or loyal Albanians in Kosovo.

 4     There were quite a few persons killed, injured; Albanians, Serbs, or

 5     soldiers alike.  And because of this, we decided to carry out

 6     anti-terrorist operations.

 7             Besides this, a number of companies and even a number of

 8     settlements were taken over by the terrorists.  More specifically, in the

 9     territory of Kosovska Mitrovica SUP at the Trepca oil and steel factory

10     which had one of its companies -- one of its plants in the village of

11     Bare in Bajgora and which produced the equipment for [microphone not

12     activated].  This particular plant was taken over by the terrorists, so

13     the director of the company had no more control over his plant.

14             In that particular factory, the terrorists started to produce

15     uniforms for their members.  In the settlement of Malisevo in Kosovo also

16     fell to terrorists, and due to this very grave situation, because the

17     movement was also very difficult, it was impossible to move at night in

18     Kosovo at the time.  All the communications were blocked.  So it was

19     decided at the staff to carry out anti-terrorist operations.  However, it

20     wasn't the staff's decision to carry out these operations, but rather

21     this was the decision of the headquarters at the highest possible level

22     with the so-called joined headquarters.

23             When you asked me whether there were any anti-terrorist

24     operations before July of 1998 in the territory of

25     Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, I would like to point out that we did carry out

Page 6613

 1     an action whereby we wanted to catch a terrorist group and destroy the

 2     terrorist group, the so-called Drenica group in the settlement

 3     Donji Prekaz in the municipality of Srbica.  This action was taken in the

 4     period between the 5th and 7th of March in three of the hamlets.

 5        Q.   In this action, can you tell us where was -- if you know, where

 6     was this action conceived, planned, and who commanded the action?

 7        A.   At that time, at the level of the Ministry of Interior, an

 8     intersectorial command was established --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Intersectorial staff

10     was established.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And within that staff there were

12     members of the public security sector and of the state security sector.

13     The head of that joint staff was head of the state security sector and

14     his deputy was chief of the public security sector.

15             The planning and organisation of this particular action was the

16     responsibility of this joint staff.  And the units in the field were

17     commanded by the commanders of these units.  In this particular

18     operation, the units of the Ministry of the Interior which took part in

19     the operations, so besides the units of the Ministry of Interior also

20     special anti-terrorist units of the state security sector participated in

21     the operation.

22             So we had the unit for special operations from the public

23     security sector and special anti-terrorist units of the state security

24     sector.  The commanders of these units and a person from the

25     Ministry of the Interior that was in charge of all the special

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 1     anti-terrorist units were in the field, and also a person from the staff

 2     of the Pristina MUP and also deputy commander of the Pristina SUP staff

 3     were in the field and they took direct command over the units that

 4     participated in this particular operation.

 5             The decision on participation of these units in the operation was

 6     taken by this intersectorial staff.  So most probably the intersectorial

 7     staff when making this decision also informed the highest level of the

 8     state authorities.  This is my assumption because otherwise such an

 9     action could not have been planned nor organised.

10        Q.   Who was chief of the RDB, the state security at that time, March

11     of 1998?

12        A.   The chief of the state security sector at the time was

13     Mr. Jovica Stanisic.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, we've run over time, is that a

15     convenient moment?

16             MR. STAMP:  Yes, it will be.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  We must adjourn now for the day and resume

18     tomorrow morning at 9.00.  So an officer of the court will give you more

19     precise instructions, but we will continue your evidence in the morning

20     at 9.00.  Thank you.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.

22                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of June,

23                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.