Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7575

 1                           Friday, 17 July 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I'd remind you of the affirmation you made which

 9     still applies, and Mr. Djordjevic will continue his questions.

10             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, before we resume, I'd like to clarify

11     an answer I made at the very end of yesterday's session if I can.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Please.

13             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Djordjevic, you asked me about the various

14     projects that our Kosovo Cultural Heritage Project had undertaken.  The

15     projects involving the lodge owned by the Serbian Orthodox Church at

16     Velika Hoca and the kulas, we were involved with Cultural Heritage

17     Without Borders in the planning stages, but the actual funding for the

18     reconstruction itself came from the Swedish International

19     Development Agency and the European Commission.

20             So I just wanted to clarify that.

21                           WITNESS:  ANDRAS JANOS RIEDLMAYER [Resumed]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yesterday we heard about the Swedish

24     foundation.  You said that you had received funds for reconstruction

25     of your projects with them.  I'm interested in the following:  Since we

Page 7576

 1     heard there were problems, Mr. Riedlmayer, for the restoration of the

 2     church in Drsnik because the Orthodox priests there asked that it be done

 3     together with the patriarchy in Belgrade or the authorities in Belgrade,

 4     and you said that the mosque was restored, and what I'm interested in --

 5     I assume that the mosque was restored in agreement with the

 6     Islamic Community in Kosovo.  Is this correct, and can we agree with this

 7     conclusion?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   Do you perhaps know, are you aware of the reasons, why there were

10     no negotiations with the patriarchy of the Serbian Orthodox Church in

11     Belgrade?  Do you have any information about that in relation to the

12     restoration of the Drsnik monastery or not?

13        A.   Okay.  Our initial contacts were with Father Savo Janjic and

14     Petar Ulemek of the Orthodox Eparchy of Raska and Prizren.  And things

15     looked promising and then certain conditions kept coming up about working

16     with the Serbian Institute for the Protection of Monuments and UNMIK, the

17     UN Mission, insisted that it had to be done through the UNMIK

18     authorities.  And at that point we stepped back and I don't know where

19     the negotiations further went.  At that point I was no longer in Kosovo,

20     and some of that contact was carried out by Mr. Herscher.  But all of the

21     projects were administratively complicated by conflicting constituencies

22     and bureaucratic difficulties, including the mosque project.  It took

23     twice as long as we had originally thought.

24        Q.   Thank you.  My next question refers to your associate and

25     colleague Herscher.  Am I correct if I were to conclude that the work

Page 7577

 1     that you did, you mentioned the Kosovska Mitrovica area and the library

 2     in the southern part of Kosovska Mitrovica, was something that you did

 3     pro bono, not under a specific agreement or a contract, while

 4     Mr. Herscher was at some post in the UNMIK institutions?  And if he was,

 5     can you please clarify for us what that was.

 6        A.   Okay.  At that point Mr. Herscher was not yet employed by UNMIK.

 7     I received a special mission from the UNMIK Department of Culture to

 8     carry out this inspection of the library.  There had previously been a

 9     mission from the International Federation of Library Associations in

10     Mitrovica to carry out the survey of the library, and this was a

11     follow-up mission.  And basically UNMIK agreed to pay for my hotel.

12     Otherwise, I received no honourarium.  I spent the day in Mitrovica,

13     wrote my report, and then the following day returned to the

14     United States.  It merely extended my stay in Kosovo by one day.

15        Q.   Mr. Herscher, what will his post be later in UNMIK?  What will

16     his post be?

17        A.   He was a -- received a six-month contract later that year to be

18     assistant head of the Department of Culture of the UN Mission in Kosovo.

19     Subsequently when the previous head left for a while, he was acting head.

20     Then he returned to the United States and began his teaching career.  And

21     subsequently I understand he worked as a consultant for UNMIK.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Together with Mr. Herscher you wrote a work named

23     "Monument and Crime"; am I correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   Can you tell me when this study or work was published and what

Page 7578

 1     was its main topic?  What do you exactly deal with in this work that you

 2     did jointly with Mr. Herscher?

 3        A.   Okay.  This article appeared in a cultural theory journal called

 4     "Grey Room."  I believe it appeared in the autumn of 2001.  I don't have

 5     my CV in front of me.  And it was -- consisted of an essay and a series

 6     of photographs, and the essay dealt with the various significations of

 7     architecture in Kosovo and how they were used in various political

 8     arguments concerning the status of Kosovo.  The article, I assume, has

 9     been made available to you.  It's been some years since I've read it

10     last.  If you have specific questions about it, I would be glad to answer

11     them.

12        Q.   I found this article myself and I read it, but I would like to

13     hear from you about certain political observations that you referred to

14     there in relation to the destruction of cultural monuments in Kosovo and

15     the cultural heritage of Kosovo.  Which monuments were the main topic of

16     observation in your article?  Were they the monuments of all cultures in

17     a multi-ethnic approach, or was it an article related to the Islamic

18     culture, which, as you said yourself, was your area of expertise?

19        A.   As I recall, the article dealt with all the elements of culture

20     in Kosovo, but it was not meant to be a survey.

21        Q.   And what was the objective?

22        A.   The article was invited to the journal which dealt with issues of

23     cultural theory and representation, and part of the argument of the

24     article was that cultural heritage is not by its nature something that is

25     detached from political events and political views, that it can be used

Page 7579

 1     to promote political arguments or neglected in the service of political

 2     arguments.  As I say, it's been a while, so if you would like to quote

 3     something I can respond to it; but in general terms this is what it's

 4     about.

 5        Q.   I'm not going to be dwelling on this anymore.  Thank you for your

 6     reply, and it will be very useful to read that essay of yours.  But am I

 7     correct if I were to say that you also published together a work

 8     "Burned Books and Scattered Relics."  Am I correct if I say that?

 9        A.   The article "Burned Books and Blasted Shrines" was something that

10     appeared in a UNESCO Courier.  It was an interview, and a very short

11     piece, one-page long.  I assume that's what you're referring to.

12        Q.   Yes, are you able to remember the main topic of that article or

13     that interview?

14        A.   The interview, as far as I recall, merely asked very briefly

15     about our mission in Kosovo and what our findings were.  It was a short

16     oral summary.  I was interviewed by telephone from UNESCO's Paris

17     headquarters.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And now something about the Packard Institute, which

19     you mentioned was one of the donors and that they financed the entire

20     thing, that you had contacted them.  And I heard during the

21     examination-in-chief by my learned friend Ms. Kravetz something about

22     that.  However, making inquiries about the Packard Institute, I found on

23     the institute's web page something which I would like you to clarify for

24     me.  What I found was that the Packard Institute does not finance

25     projects from others.  They do not provide funds for projects of others,

Page 7580

 1     but finance only projects it considers to be their own.  So the project

 2     that you were involved with in Kosovo, was that a Packard project and

 3     that's why it received financing, or was this some kind of exception; and

 4     if it was, can you please explain what this is about.

 5        A.   Let me first explain about the Packard Humanities Institute.  The

 6     name Packard relates, originally, to one of the founders of the famous

 7     Hewlett-Packard computer company, but the person who founded and runs

 8     that institute is the son of that founder.  He has no connection with the

 9     company.  He is a retired professor of classics and has various cultural

10     interests.  He supports archaeological excavations in Greece, Albania,

11     Turkey, various publishing ventures, and so forth.

12             I know the web site to which you refer.  It is meant as a way of

13     deterring people from barraging them with project proposals.  Like many

14     private foundations in the US, the way the Packard Humanities Institute

15     works is that projects are referred to them by people they trust, by sort

16     of an advisory board.  And earlier, before the Kosovo project was

17     conceived, I had had contact with the Packard Humanities Institute

18     already concerning projects involving reconstruction of manuscript

19     libraries in Bosnia.  They had at that time considered and then decided

20     not to support the initiative, but that established the contact.

21             And so when we came up with this Kosovo Cultural

22     Heritage Project, I used that contact to personally approach the people

23     at the institute and ask if they would be interested in funding it.  And

24     after some time they said yes.  Under very restricted circumstances.  We

25     had money, only a certain amount of money only for a certain amount of

Page 7581

 1     time, and not renewable.  So I guess you could qualify it as an

 2     exception.  But the web site notwithstanding, the projects that they do

 3     fund, they don't manage them out of the Packard Humanities Institute.

 4     These are projects run by other people, and they provide the funding.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  The founders of the Packard Foundation are

 6     Mr. Packard and his wife.  Who manages the institute, as for that, I

 7     didn't know that it was the son, I didn't find that on the web site.  But

 8     on the web site I found other links that direct to the separate or

 9     special projects of the Packard institute you spoke about, the

10     archaeological excavations, and the financing of such projects.  I did

11     find that.  But this project about the damage to the cultural heritage in

12     Kosovo is something that I did not find on any of the links of this

13     institution.  Very well, I understand you explained that it was an

14     exception.

15             The next question for you is that you spent some considerable

16     time of your examination-in-chief in explaining that you worked

17     independently, you were not so connected with The Hague Tribunal OTP at

18     that time, that it was simply a project of yours, for which I see that

19     was supported by Harvard, if I understood that correctly.  So could you

20     explain that part as well.  And finally, the project is, in essence, your

21     project and the project of Mr. Herscher; am I correct when I conclude

22     this?

23        A.   Well, yes.  First of all, under American law a charitable

24     institution, such as the Packard Foundation cannot easily give out money

25     to individuals acting on their own, they have to channel the money

Page 7582

 1     through another non-profit institution.  So we arranged for a centre at

 2     Harvard to act as the disburser of the funds; however, the project itself

 3     was not a project of Harvard University.  It was a project of the two

 4     principal researchers, Mr. Herscher and myself.  When I worked on the

 5     Kosovo project, I was on vacation from my Harvard job.  It's not that

 6     they were paying me to do this.  So the connection with Harvard was

 7     essentially a nominal one.  Does that answer your question, sir?

 8        Q.   Let me repeat the last thing I said in my question or the

 9     conclusion with which I think you will agree.  It was a project of you

10     and your partner in the project, and Mr. Herscher; am I correct when I

11     say that?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             My next question -- well, I apologise to the Trial Chamber.  I'm

15     going to do my best today -- well, I'm trying all the time to take into

16     consideration everything that you said in the Milutinovic case.  This is

17     something that is already in the case file of this case, and I'm just

18     going to then ask you about things that were not clarified in that case

19     as it relates to your testimony or your statement.

20             So one of the things dealt with by my colleagues, which I

21     personally believe was not clarified completely, is the way in which you

22     drafted the report, which we all have, and it implies evidence or records

23     with photographs of the damaged buildings.  There is also a section in

24     which you talk about the eye-witnesses or people who are sources of all

25     types of information.  What I would like to ask you is this.  You say

Page 7583

 1     that it's your project.  Did you set yourself the task, number one, to

 2     note the damage in the objects that are part of the cultural heritage of

 3     Kosovo -- well, this is clear to me.  But did you also set a task for

 4     yourself to establish the causes of the damage and who caused the damage?

 5     Because in the reply that you gave to my learned friend during the

 6     examination-in-chief, you said, among other things, that we took those

 7     statements in order to assist the Court.

 8             Now, this is not clear to me.  First of all, up until that time I

 9     had one opinion; after that, I had a different opinion.  So just explain

10     to me what was your task in relation to this second item?  It's clear to

11     me in relation to the first item, but what was your task in assisting the

12     Court to acquire information on the manner in which the damage was caused

13     on these cultural monuments?  Did you do something in order to acquire

14     that knowledge?  How was the work organised?

15        A.   Well, if you look at the preliminary section of our report, it

16     states that what prompted our report was the number of allegations that

17     surfaced during and immediately after the war regarding the destruction

18     of cultural monuments.  We set out to investigate these allegations in

19     their fullness in the sense that we wanted to know:  Had these monuments

20     been damaged; and if so, when and how.  And the damage of who damaged it,

21     we were limited in our capability so as to determine that.  But to the

22     extent that we acquired information that would point in that direction,

23     we felt obliged to record it.

24             The manner in which we recorded it was designed to aid anyone who

25     was pursuing an investigation of who was responsible, to then proceed

Page 7584

 1     with those leads.  But obviously we are not criminal investigators.  The

 2     conclusions we can draw ourselves have to do with things like:  What is

 3     the condition of the building?  What might have caused the building to be

 4     in the condition that it is in?  And more general ones about patterns of

 5     destruction.

 6        Q.   Am I correct if I were to say that your investigation was limited

 7     only to the period you refer to in your report immediately after the KFOR

 8     forces entered Kosovo, therefore, after June?  So the period that you

 9     spent in Kosovo and Metohija and inspected 144 monuments.  I think you

10     mentioned that figure.

11             Can you please tell me exactly how much time did you spend in

12     Kosovo?  Did you go there on several occasions when you were writing the

13     report with Dr. -- Mr. Herscher or did you -- did your stay precede the

14     writing of the actual report and how much time in total did you spend in

15     Kosovo?

16        A.   Okay.  As I have indicated, I believe during the direct

17     examination, I -- Mr. Herscher and I went to Kosovo three times.  The

18     first time was in October of 1999, when we spent most of the month there,

19     approximately three and a half weeks; the second time was three weeks in

20     the following October, October of 2000; and the last time was in

21     March and April of 2001, again for about three weeks.  The amount of time

22     that we spent on each monument varied, obviously.  If a monument had been

23     completely destroyed, there wasn't a lot to do other than take a picture

24     and walk the site.  If it was a more complex one, we would spend

25     considerable time.  The greatest amount of time was taken up by

Page 7585

 1     travelling, because even though Kosovo is a small place, the

 2     infrastructure was in very bad shape.  So we spent enormously long days,

 3     usually leaving before daylight and returning long after dark.

 4        Q.   Tell me, please, while you were in Kosovo, were you stationed in

 5     one place only or did you travel around and stayed wherever the subject

 6     of your interest was?

 7        A.   That varied according to our visit.  The first time around we

 8     were based in Pristina and took long day-trips out of Pristina.  The

 9     second and third trip we stayed not only in Pristina but also in Pec, in

10     western Kosovo.

11        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is as follows.  You mentioned the

12     time-limit and your time constraints with reference to your report and

13     you also mentioned the bad shape of roads in Kosovo.  How did you make

14     arrangements for your travels to the sites that you wanted to visit?  Did

15     you have any security detail with you or did you arrange that ad hoc

16     together with UNMIK authorities or did you organise it by yourself on an

17     ad hoc basis?

18        A.   We had no prior contact with UNMIK authorities or anyone else in

19     that sense.  We hired a car and driver.  The car and driver was

20     recommended to me by somebody I knew who was a reporter who had used the

21     same driver before.  What helped matters is that the driver was

22     bilingual.  He new Turkish as well as Albanian.  And so I was able to use

23     his services as an interpreter in cases where I couldn't speak to people

24     directly.  We hired him on a daily basis and paid him off at the end of

25     each day, and I think at the end of the trip he had ruined his car but

Page 7586

 1     had enough money to buy a new one.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that before each trip you went either

 3     to the offices of the Prosecution or UNMIK - please remind me what you

 4     said - in order to acquire information about your destination and to

 5     investigate about the security situation with regard to your forthcoming

 6     trip.  Since I didn't realise from that record where you got this

 7     information, for example, when you spoke about Mitrovica you said you

 8     weren't going there because of the riots there on the river Ibar.

 9        A.   Yes.  This was our sole contact with the UNMIK field -- I'm

10     sorry, with the ICTY field office in Pristina.  The ICTY field office

11     would, on a daily basis, receive a security report from KFOR, the NATO

12     authorities, and they encouraged us in advance of each day's trip to

13     check with them on what the daily forecast was for security environment.

14     And in most cases there was no problem.  On that particular day, we were

15     warned not to go to Mitrovica and so we didn't.  We didn't inform them

16     actually where we were going.  We just asked for the copy of the daily

17     security report.

18        Q.   With your previous answer you just responded to how it worked on

19     the road.  As I understand, this translation from English into Turkish

20     and Albanian, vice versa, can you explain in more detail how this was

21     achieved because you had a person, as you said, who was your field

22     translator.

23        A.   Basically on each expedition we would have our driver, we would

24     have Mr. Herscher and myself, and on various occasions we took people

25     with us to act as guides.  For example, somebody from the

Page 7587

 1     Institute for the Protection of Monuments.

 2             The language aspect of it worked the following way:  I am fluent

 3     in a number of languages, including German and Turkish.  I'm fluent in

 4     Turkish in part because I spent three years in Turkey on a Fulbright.  In

 5     Kosovo there are lots of people who have worked in Switzerland and

 6     Germany and speak German, so the German helped in those cases.  And in

 7     the cities such as Prizren, to a certain extent in Vucitrn, Mitrovica,

 8     and Pristina, you will find a lot of people who also know Turkish.  I

 9     even spoke with Serbs who knew Turkish.  It was what people in the cities

10     had as a skill.  So that worked for a communication.  Occasionally we

11     would be in a situation where the person only knew Albanian.  In that

12     case we asked -- I would speak Turkish to our driver, and our driver

13     would translate from Albanian and Turkish and back.  So there was only

14     one language.  So it wasn't English to Turkish to Albanian; it was

15     just -- I spoke Turkish, he translated into Turkish.

16        Q.   At this.  This translator and driver of yours, was he a driver by

17     profession or did he have some other occupation?

18        A.   By occupation he had been before the war a musician and had

19     performed on Pristina Radio, and he had travelled throughout Kosovo

20     giving concerts so he was familiar with the roads and he had a car, which

21     was important.

22        Q.   Thank you.  In your report drafted in 2001, you speak,

23     inter alia, about the Kosovo Institute for Protection of Monuments, the

24     Institute for the Protection of Monuments of the then-Yugoslavia.  But

25     what I'm interested in is that in one of the paragraphs you say that the

Page 7588

 1     criteria that the Yugoslav authorities applied when they compiled a list

 2     of monuments to be protected were conditioned to a great extent or

 3     dependent to a great extent on political reasoning.  Since you have a

 4     university degree in social sciences, I would like to ask you what was

 5     your meaning by saying that?  And then depending on your answer I would

 6     move on to my next question, which is related to this one.  But before

 7     that can I have your answer, please.

 8        A.   Certainly.  The reference was to the legislation which was

 9     enacted to declare certain monuments and sites to be under legal

10     protection.  This kind of protection legislation exists in most countries

11     of the world at various levels, either local or national, and usually

12     entitles the monument to a degree of protection in the sense that

13     destruction or alteration of the monument without permission is

14     prohibited and monuments become eligible for certain degrees of

15     restoration assistance from the central government.

16             Now, the criteria in all cases represent a judgement as to what

17     is important and worthy of preserving.  And while certain of the criteria

18     are universal and sensible, is this a monument of great age?  Is it

19     connected with some important historic event?  Is it something that has

20     gained universal admiration and is represented in the literature, in the

21     professional literature?  But to another extent, the -- especially the

22     funding aspect of it which is closely linked to the designation has to do

23     with what a government, what an authority, considers to be a priority.

24             So, for example, during the times of communist Yugoslavia, the

25     greatest attention was paid to memorials of the Second World War and of

Page 7589

 1     the Partizan movement, and every -- for example, in Kosovo -- in addition

 2     to the museum of Kosovo, all of the local museums had as one of their

 3     principal tasks preserving and exhibiting elements of the Partizan

 4     movement.

 5             So in the same sense the determination of what to designate and

 6     what not to designate was not merely a neutral decision.  It had to do

 7     with what was considered politically important as well.

 8             And what I was referring to in the report, and I assume what you

 9     are referring to here, is the fact that although Kosovo has many

10     monuments of great age, both Islamic and Orthodox, very few Islamic

11     monuments had been designated to be under protection, whereas a greater

12     number of monuments had gone under protection that were of the Orthodox

13     heritage.  And this is also reflected in the amount of money that was

14     then subsequently spent on restoration efforts.

15        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  Are you aware that back in 1977

16     the Law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage was passed, referring to

17     the then-autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, and this is a period

18     that the Albanian population claimed to be the period of their highest

19     autonomy enjoyed by them.  Do you know that all the employees of the

20     institute, including the director, were ethnic Albanians?  And I'm

21     talking about the Institute for the Protection of Monuments.  And do you

22     know how -- what provisions this law made concerning the protection of

23     monuments in Kosovo?  Do you know how many Serbian Orthodox monuments

24     have been placed under protection under this specific law?  Can I first

25     have this answer, please.

Page 7590

 1        A.   Okay.  I'm aware of -- that the legislation was passed.  I do not

 2     know the composition of the staff of the Institute for the Protection of

 3     Monuments in the 1970s, however I'm aware of what it was in the 1990s, in

 4     which period it was not majority Albanian.  As to the numbers of

 5     monuments that were placed under protection, my understanding is that

 6     this varied from year to year because additional monuments were added at

 7     very points, and so I don't have an exact figure.  There were some

 8     figures from the period under investigation, namely, the status quo of

 9     the 1990s, which we derived from publications.  We did not have access to

10     the full register.  And they are cited in our report.

11        Q.   In that period, many more monuments of the Serbian Orthodox

12     Church enjoyed protection.  Now, apart from the ideological reasons, do

13     you know what else guided the government in providing funds for the

14     protection?  Do you know which specific criteria have been laid down when

15     it comes to the protection of cultural monuments, for example, sacral

16     monuments, do you know exactly what criteria were in place because they

17     are very specifically listed in the law.  And I am talking about the

18     criteria that would determine that -- for a specific monument to be

19     placed under protection.

20        A.   Well, as to what guided the allocation of funds, I assume the

21     primary consideration was budgetary priorities.  And I know that in much

22     of the latter period of the former Yugoslavia, money was very tight.  And

23     so protections that were on the books did not necessarily result in

24     allocations of necessary funds.

25             As to the specific aspects of the law, I have not read the

Page 7591

 1     legislation.

 2        Q.   My next question is a general one.  Are you aware today of, first

 3     of all, the criteria being applied by the UNESCO?  We know what is the

 4     agenda of this UN agency, in order to declare a certain cultural asset

 5     the world heritage?  So can you tell us about the UNESCO criteria that

 6     determine how certain monuments are being designated?

 7        A.   My understanding, and this really steps beyond my particular

 8     expertise, is that the nominations for a site to be -- or monument to be

 9     entered on the World Heritage List are submitted by the national UNESCO

10     committees to the world heritage section of UNESCO in Paris, and that it

11     takes a fairly long process for UNESCO to arrive at such a designation.

12             I also know that in the case of the former Yugoslavia before the

13     year 2000 there were very few World Heritage Sites, one of them being

14     Dubrovnik, another being some Serbian monasteries in the Sandzak reason,

15     but that before 2004, I believe, there were no designated World Heritage

16     Sites either in Kosovo or in Bosnia for that matter.

17        Q.   You will agree with me that you're not familiar with the explicit

18     criteria applied by UNESCO in the process of assigning a certain monument

19     the title of the World Heritage Site.  However, my next question is as

20     follows.  We're now in the year 2009.  Do you know at present how many

21     monuments there are in Kosovo from the Serbian cultural media that are

22     considered World Heritage Site, and how many monuments of the Serbian

23     Orthodox Church are declared World Heritage Sites?  Are there any Roman

24     Catholic sites that are given this title or any other building or site,

25     whether it be sacral or religious, that enjoys this status at present?

Page 7592

 1        A.   You mean in Kosovo?

 2        Q.   [In English] Exactly.

 3        A.   Okay.  I haven't been keeping track of this as much as perhaps I

 4     should have, but my understanding is that the monastery at Visoki Decani

 5     was the first to get that designation.  And then the Bogorodica Ljeviska

 6     church in Prizren and Gracanica monastery and, I believe, the Pec

 7     Patriarchate, so that makes four, I believe.  I'm not aware of others,

 8     but I may be mistaken.

 9             As far as Roman Catholic churches, none are World Heritage Sites.

10     There are a few of great antiquity in Kosovo that are still standing.

11     There are some medieval ruins.  And none of the Islamic sites have been

12     so designated, although there are some monuments of considerable

13     antiquity and artistic importance.  But as I said, prior to 2004 there

14     were none of any category that had been so designated.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.  Do you think that

16     the UNESCO experts were guided by political judgements when they afforded

17     four Serbian monasteries the status of World Heritage Sites or were they

18     guided by some other reasons after all?

19        A.   I'm very glad that these got the designation.  They are indeed

20     great treasures of world art.  I think it's indisputable.  They're

21     mentioned in all the art history books.  They represent a very

22     interesting moment in cultural history and are important, not only for

23     the region or for Serbian culture, but also for world culture.  I would

24     not dispute that in the least.

25        Q.   Well, this is indisputable.  But I put a very specific question

Page 7593

 1     to you whether the UNESCO, as well, was guided by political reasons when

 2     they afforded these sites the status of extremely important

 3     World Heritage Sites.

 4        A.   I would not believe that it was a political decision at all.  As

 5     I indicated in my earlier responses, there are certain monuments which,

 6     simply by their nature, are obvious candidates for protection because of

 7     their cultural importance, because of their age or historical

 8     significance.  I think these are certainly among them.

 9        Q.   We absolutely agree on this, Mr. Riedlmayer.

10             My next question is as follows:  In Kosovo, do you know which are

11     the oldest mosques from which century that can really have a great

12     historical value, bearing in mind the history that happened in that

13     region and what is usually referred to as the traditional Islamic

14     architecture?  Can you tell me if there are any mosques of that kind, I

15     think there are only a few of them, but I would like to hear the answer

16     from you because you are an expert in this area.

17        A.   That's a fair question.  The earliest mosques in Kosovo that are

18     still existent are from the fifteenth century.  They include, among

19     others, the Bajrakli xhamija in Pec of which we saw a picture during the

20     direct examination.  They include the Careva [phoen] xhamija, the

21     Emperor's mosque in Pristina.  And then there is a ruined mosque near

22     Strpce, near a village called Mazgit, which dates from that period but is

23     in -- not a well-preserved state.  Prizren has more than 30 different

24     mosques, and it -- many of them dating from the 15th and 16th centuries,

25     and it has been designated as a site of unusual importance by the World

Page 7594

 1     Monuments Fund.  And there are also a number of other mosques in smaller

 2     locations in Kosovo, such as the mosque in Rogovo, the Hadum mosque in

 3     Djakovica, which is now undergoing further restoration under UNESCO

 4     auspices.  And in addition to the mosques, there are also other Islamic

 5     monuments like the hammam in Prizren and so forth.  So indeed Kosovo has

 6     some monuments of the Islamic tradition that are 500 or more years old

 7     and some of them are of cultural importance.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.  To the best of my knowledge, the

 9     oldest monuments of that nature date from the sixteenth century and this

10     is the information that I acquired by relying on various sources in the

11     literature.  However, since the purpose of my examination -- of my

12     cross-examination is not this subject.  My next question will be - and I

13     kindly ask you to bear with me a little until I move to my next topic.

14             This is another general topic, and it refers to the methodology

15     of collecting information.  I would like to notice that when you made

16     inquiries about the damage inflicted on the Serbian Orthodox sacral

17     monuments you mainly interviewed the clergy or the Serbs living in the

18     area and with whom you have an opportunity to contact.  You mentioned

19     Father Savo Janjic, et cetera.  When you inquired about how the damage

20     was caused to both the civilian and sacral monuments of the Islamic

21     culture, however, you mainly talked to the Albanians.  However, when we

22     are talking about the St. Anton church, the Catholic church, you talked

23     about it also with the priest of that church.

24             So you do realise that my question is primarily aimed at this

25     methodology that you applied in collecting what I would call additional

Page 7595

 1     information relating to the cause of damage relating to the perpetrators,

 2     their identity, and the way in which they caused the damage.  Now, when

 3     you spoke about all these things, did you talk with the police?  Did you

 4     talk with anyone from the international community present in Kosovo?  Did

 5     you review any official information about this damage if any were

 6     available?  Now, I think this is a compound question, and I'm going to

 7     stop now.

 8        A.   Okay.  Let me see if I can sort it out.  As to who our informants

 9     were, we got our information on this category of information -- I'm

10     sorry, from wherever we could get it.  For example, you mention the

11     destruction of -- I'm sorry, the destruction of the Serbian monasteries.

12     We spoke to the clergy because the clergy had collected a lot of

13     information and they were very active in publicising it.  And so it

14     seemed like a natural way to go.

15             Similarly, in the case of St. Anthony's Catholic church in

16     Djakovica, I arrived at the church looking for signs of damage because it

17     had been one of the allegations listed in the Yugoslav White Book.  When

18     I arrived there, I was pleased to find that the priest of the church,

19     Father Ambroz Ukaj, was present at the church, and furthermore, that he

20     spoke fluent Turkish.  And so we spent about 45 minutes to an hour in

21     conversation and he told me that he had actually been in Djakovica during

22     the war.  So he seemed to me to be an informant who had some valuable

23     information to provide.

24             Now, as to police, when we were there in October of 1999,

25     UNMIK police had to a great extent not really been established throughout

Page 7596

 1     Kosovo yet.  They were still in the process of setting up.  There were

 2     international policemen we met who had just arrived in Kosovo and who

 3     were still orienting themselves.  They had no records.  Things were in a

 4     fair state of chaos.  It would not have been a productive use of our time

 5     to try to go down to police stations and ask for that kind of

 6     information, especially since that really was not the primary focus of

 7     our investigation.  We were there to look at buildings.

 8             Now, let me see if there's anything else.  International

 9     community, we tried to get information from the international community,

10     and, to the extent that we could, we did get it.  For example, in Pec

11     there was a very energetic young French woman who was working for UNMIK

12     who had organised a project to document the destruction of kulas.  And so

13     we got their figures, not the first time around while their survey was

14     still in progress, but on our return trip to Kosovo.

15             UNESCO at that point had only one person seconded to the

16     UN administration, Mr. Mark Richmond his specialty was education, and he

17     had no information to offer on monuments or sites and no knowledge of

18     them.  And similarly we tried without much success to get information

19     from local authorities.  The one exception was Djakovica which had its

20     own municipal institute for the protection of monuments, and they were

21     quite helpful in providing us with information about monuments in that

22     area.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned Mr. Mark Richmond.  He also had

24     something to do, as far as I understood, with the allegations that

25     something of the cultural heritage was destroyed -- or rather, was not

Page 7597

 1     destroyed.  However, in your report you disputed his findings.  Can you

 2     please tell me what actually this whole thing was about when we are

 3     talking about this person, this Mark Richmond.

 4        A.   I'm sorry, I do not recall what you are referring to.  Can you

 5     quote it back to me?

 6        Q.   Later, so we don't lose time because I have a lot of things to

 7     put to you, I will go back to that after the break so that we don't lose

 8     any time now.  My following question has to do with the fact you say you

 9     were in one of the Serbian monasteries and that KFOR did not allow you to

10     enter the monastery.  Did I understood that correctly?

11        A.   Yes, this was in Prizren, I believe.  KFOR had surrounded the

12     Serbian Orthodox patriarchate and its monastery in Prizren, and they

13     didn't allow us in.  I believe this is what you're referring to.

14             On a subsequent visit, Mr. Herscher did go inside.  But in

15     October of 1999, they cited security reasons for not letting us in.

16     Remember that we were there on our own.  We had no institutional clout to

17     throw at them.

18        Q.   Precisely, that is my next question.  Were you staying as part of

19     any institutions of the system and reported there about your area of

20     work?  Did you ever any special passes or did you experience what you

21     experienced because your stay was an ad hoc trip as far as they were

22     concerned?

23        A.   Well, you -- for this you have to understand the post-war

24     situation in Kosovo.  When we arrived in Kosovo we crossed over from

25     Macedonia, which was the closest airport in Skopje, and we crossed at

Page 7598

 1     Jazince which is high up in the mountains.  And it turned out we needed

 2     no papers other than to show our passports, which they checked against

 3     the list of presumably people who should not be admitted, we were not on

 4     it, and we were in -- no stamps, nothing.

 5             We arrived in Pristina and made some inquiries and found out that

 6     UNHCR was holding weekly conferences of NGOs that were interested in

 7     buildings of various sources.  And so we attended those conferences.  My

 8     sense was that UNHCR was essentially acting as a forum for sharing

 9     information, but they were not actively coordinating anything.  And so to

10     cut the story short, at that point anyone could be active as an NGO in

11     Kosovo without going through great formalities.  And we stayed there for

12     a month without having to register with the police or having any official

13     status whatsoever.  When we were stopped at roadblocks, all we had to

14     show was our identification.

15        Q.   Thank you.  This explains quite a lot.  You mentioned a little

16     while ago some civilian buildings, you mention the "konaks," the

17     "hammams," and the last thing that you mentioned will be a brief topic of

18     interest.  These are the "kullas," or the towers.  In your report you

19     mentioned that the towers were a traditional type of building in Kosovo

20     and in this part of the Balkans.  I understand what you are trying to say

21     when you say "in Kosovo," but I want to ask you what do you mean when you

22     say "in this part of the Balkans"?

23        A.   Okay.  First of all, the term "kula" simply means tower, and

24     various structures that are called "kula" are found all the way from

25     Dalmatia down to Greece.  There is a very particular kind of

Page 7599

 1     construction, which is referred to in, for example, the Serbian

 2     literature as Siptarska Kula, the Albanian "kulla," which is found mainly

 3     in Kosovo and some adjacent areas of Macedonia and Montenegro.  They used

 4     to be found in northern Albania as well, but most of them were demolished

 5     under the Enver Hoxha regime.  So they were particular to that region and

 6     were mainly found in Kosovo.  And in Kosovo they were concentrated in

 7     particular in the western part, the part in Serbia known as Metohija and

 8     in Albanian as the Plain of Dukagjini.

 9        Q.   In view of the translation that I see Metohija and Dukagjin is

10     exactly the same area.  Are we going to agree on that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know the word "kula"?  Which language is that

13     word appearing in primarily?  Is it Albanian?  Turkish?  Serbian?  Or any

14     other language?

15        A.   Actually, in all of the ones you mentioned plus several more.

16     The root of the word I believe is Arabic, how -- and it just means

17     "tower," but -- whether spelled with one L as in Serbian or with two L's

18     as in Albanian.  It is a building type that is know in the Balkans and

19     were particularly constructed in the 18th and 19th centuries.

20        Q.   The word "kula" does have Arabic origin -- is of Arabic origin;

21     however, in Serbia when we used that word it is indicated as a word of

22     Turkish origin, as a word that has been taken into the language from the

23     Turkish language.  And that is the reason when you say "kula" in the

24     Serbian language we all have an idea of what you have just said.  Yeah,

25     we see that it represents a tower.  I don't have any photographs, but

Page 7600

 1     perhaps we will have some later.  But are you able to describe what a

 2     kula looks like in the western part of Kosovo?  It is definitely a tower.

 3     What sort of a tower is it?  What does it consist of?  What is it built

 4     of?  What is its height?  Could you please describe it.

 5        A.   Generally, a kula is constructed of stone.  It is a fairly

 6     massive construction.  I have read descriptions of how kulas were made,

 7     the last ones that were constructed at the end of World War II were these

 8     community projects where people would go out and collect stones from

 9     river-beds.  And what they are -- they're not towers in the sense that

10     most of them are not taller than they are wide, but they are unusually

11     high for a region in which most houses are fairly low to the ground.

12     They are usually two, in some cases three, or even four storeys high.

13     The lower part of the kula is usually made of massive unfinished stones.

14     The only finished stones are the ornamental entrance.

15             And at the very top of the kula usually wrapped around one corner

16     of the building is what's known in Albanian as "oda e burreve" the men's

17     room or guest-room which is the fancy room of the house.  This is where

18     guests are received, where family councils meet.  It has a fireplace.  It

19     has benches running around.

20             The family usually lives in much plainer rooms on the floor

21     immediately below the guest-room, and the bottom is where the animals and

22     grain and agricultural tools are kept.  So it's a development very much

23     like many of the medieval houses in other parts of Europe.

24             What's particular about the construction is that it is meant to

25     provide both shelter and protection.  They were built in the eighteenth

Page 7601

 1     and nineteenth century at a time when the area was very insecure.  There

 2     were bandits, there were family feuds.  So the bottom floor where the

 3     animals and the fodder were kept had no windows at all.  The family areas

 4     had very small windows.  And the only part that had substantial windows

 5     generally was the guest-room at the very top.  Now, that's the typical

 6     rural kula.

 7             In the cities like Pec, there were also urban kula which had a

 8     much more urbane design with bigger windows.  A typical example is the

 9     Kulla of Jashar Pasha in the centre of Pec which is also mentioned in my

10     report.  The kulas were generally owned by a single extended Albanian

11     family.  They would not necessarily all live within the same kula.  Often

12     members of the family would live in smaller houses nearby as part of a

13     larger family compound.  But even in modern times the kula was the centre

14     of great family occasions such as weddings and funerals where they would

15     all gather.

16             Is that a sufficient description?

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm now going to ask to have on

19     the monitor e-court evidence of the Defence and to show in order from

20     D004-2844 to D004-2848.  So can we look at these photographs one by one

21     from 44 to 48, please, and can we please just stay five seconds on each

22     photograph.

23        Q.   I'm going to briefly comment.  This is Bosnia, this is Bihac,

24     Western Bosnia, and what we see here is the Dizdar Kula in the Belgrade

25     fort, in Belgrade?

Page 7602

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The next, please.

 2        Q.   This is the memorial kula erected near Pristina in Gazimestan.

 3     It's a monument to the fighters killed in the battle with the Turks in

 4     1389.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And the next one, please.

 6        Q.   This is a kula from Bosnia.  And you see that it has a wooden

 7     roof that is constructed at the top, and it is located in Gradac.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The next one, please.

 9        Q.   This is a kula in Istanbul.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   My question relating to all these kulas that you've seen, this

12     one is in Turkey, and it was -- and the previous ones you saw are mostly

13     in the Balkan area.  None of them are from Kosovo.  My next question is

14     if any of the kulas that you've seen can be compared with any of the

15     kulas that are in Kosovo?

16        A.   The answer is no; not except in the most general of terms.

17     "Kula," as we already discussed, is a generic word meaning "tower."  One

18     thing you did not show which exists in many cities in the Balkans is a

19     Sahat Kula, a clock-tower, which are very slim and very tall.  So

20     any structure that is a tower and of a certain historic period can be and

21     often is referred to as "kula."  But not every kula, not every tower,

22     belongs to this class of typical ethnic Albanian dwelling.

23        Q.   My next question is if you know that there were many kulas for

24     which you claim were typically Albanian that were owned by Serbs, not

25     only in cities.

Page 7603

 1        A.   I believe I mention in my report that there were kulas owned by

 2     Serbs, and I also referred to the fact that these seemed to be the only

 3     kulas that escaped destruction.  However, as I pointed out in my

 4     testimony in the Milutinovic case, among others, even the publications of

 5     the Institute for the Protection of Monuments of the Republic of Serbia

 6     in the 1990s included specific reference to the fact that these are

 7     typically Albanian dwellings.  I refer, for example, to the article by

 8     Jovan Krunic, "Siptarska Kulla Metohije," the Albanian Towers of

 9     Metohija.  So, yes, there was no law saying that every resident of every

10     kula had to be an Albanian, but they were associated with Albanian

11     culture.

12        Q.   Could we connect them with the heritage that had to do with the

13     500-year-long stay of Turks in that area?  You know when the Turks

14     withdrew from that area, it was at the beginning of the

15     twentieth century, actually, and in some places much later even.

16        A.   Well, they can be connected in two ways.  One is as you state,

17     the word "kula" is something that entered Balkan languages through

18     Turkish, but so did three-quarters of the words on any recipe in the --

19     restaurant in the Balkans.  But the other way it is, of course, that

20     anything that happened during those 500 years is connected.

21             However, I'm not aware, in spite of many Albanians' claims that

22     "kullas" go back to antiquity, I am not aware of any kula that is older

23     than the eighteenth century.  These were essentially an architectural

24     fashion that developed in the 1700s, peaked in the 1900s, and pretty much

25     ceased by the middle of the twentieth century.  So it is particular -- to

Page 7604

 1     a particular region and to a particular time-period.

 2        Q.   I will agree with you that there is no kula in Kosovo that is

 3     older than the nineteenth century, actually, but I'm also going to agree

 4     with those Albanians who told you that the kulas existed there even

 5     before 500 years -- or 500 years earlier, or 400 years earlier.  But what

 6     I want to ask you is of a completely different nature; it has to do with

 7     the facilities that were used for purposes of defence.  Can you please

 8     tell us now because now we are talking about the Siptar, the Albanian

 9     "kullas," and this is something that Serb chroniclers also say, can you

10     please tell us, in relation to the households, Albanian households, where

11     would a kula be located in reference to a residential building of a

12     regular Albanian household?  You said that there's a residential part and

13     the kulas were used for different ceremonial or special occasions,

14     burials and celebrations, and so on.  Where were they located in relation

15     to the rest of the household?

16        A.   Okay.  Well, actually, I didn't say that people didn't live in

17     kulas.  People did live in kulas.  The second floor was usually family

18     living quarters.  What I said is that they were -- as families grew and

19     Kosovo is one of the last places where you had the traditional Balkan

20     extended family, what's known in Serbian as "zadruga" where multiple

21     generations of the same family lived together and shared their money and

22     shared their work and child care and everything else.  And so a compound

23     might contain a monumental kula and several smaller buildings around it.

24             And such a kula might be out in a village somewhere surrounded by

25     smaller houses or there might be an aggregation of kulas.  For example,

Page 7605

 1     there is a very famous village near Junik called Nivokaz which had

 2     24 kulas all grouped together in a single village.  So similarly, the old

 3     town of Decani had an enormous number of kulas which were laid out on

 4     streets.  The kulas were right next to the street, and so they were like

 5     ordinary townhouses, but what this was was a large village of kulas.  So

 6     not every one of them was an isolated compound in the country-side.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And my last question before the break, which is

 8     approaching is:  When you said that -- you said that the kula in the

 9     ground floor they held cattle and the first floor was the residential

10     area and the second floor was the best rooms where they had celebrations

11     and special celebrations.  Do you -- and you said that the kula, the

12     purpose of it was for habitation and also defence.  When you said that,

13     what do you mean by that?

14        A.   As I pointed out, the kula arose at the time when order was

15     breaking down in that region.  In the eighteenth and nineteenth century

16     there were a lot of bandi ts and a lot of blood-feuds.  And kulas,

17     because they were such massive structures, offered defence to the family

18     if it was attacked, whether by bandits, by tax collectors, or by the

19     rival family.  So they could take shelter inside the windowless walls and

20     they had enough provisions in the bottom level so they wouldn't have to

21     necessarily go out for several days.

22             So in that sense, yes, they had it as a defensive purpose.  And

23     because the windows were small, they weren't as vulnerable then as if

24     they had had larger windows.  And does that answer your question?

25        Q.   And finally, would you agree with my conclusion that kulas at the

Page 7606

 1     time were a necessity, not a fashion trend, in late nineteenth century

 2     when such a large number of them were constructed in Kosovo?

 3        A.   Well, I think both would be my answer because the social

 4     conditions to which you refer obtained not only in western Kosovo but in

 5     much of the Balkans, and yet these kulas were only built in that region.

 6     So in that sense it was a fashion, but, yes, there was a very practical

 7     purpose behind the fashion in that sense.  If you've seen pictures of

 8     them you know that they are very imposing buildings, and so only wealthy

 9     families would afford them, for starters, but yes they had a practical

10     purpose.

11        Q.   [In English] That's all for now.  Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  It's time for rest, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the first break now and resume at

14     11.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Riedlmayer, my next question relates to your

19     statement or your testimony given in the Milutinovic case.  While you

20     were cross-examined by my colleague Mr. Bakrac, he was particularly

21     interested in the kulas that were demolished by the Albanians but which

22     were owned by the Serbs.  Do you know anything about this?  Because from

23     your answer given to my colleague Bakrac in the Milutinovic case, I

24     couldn't quite gather what you meant.  The reference page is 2704, line

25     10, I'm talking about Kula Kusko [Realtime transcript read in error

Page 7607

 1     "Pusko"], Kos, Garica, Decani.  Are you aware that these kulas have been

 2     demolished by the Albanians and that they were the property of the Serbs?

 3        A.   These were not kulas that I visited, and therefore I have no

 4     information about them.  I'm not surprised that such things may have

 5     happened, but I have no information.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, line 22,

 7     instead of Kula "Pusko" it should read Kula "Kusko," with a K.

 8             [In English] Then Kos, K-o-s, yes.  Then Garica.  And last one is

 9     okay.  It's okay, Decani.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm interested in the following:  You mentioned

11     in your report that Gracanica - and that was in the Milosevic case - that

12     the famous Serbian monastery of Gracanica was a large military base.

13     That's on page 2743.  Do you have information about some other Orthodox

14     shrines being used for these purposes?  I know that you mentioned that at

15     one point the troops, the army troops, were stationed or billeted in the

16     St. Anton monastery, but do you have any accurate information about

17     Islamic shrines being used as the basis for the Kosovo Liberation Army

18     and the Albanian terrorists as the then-Yugoslav authorities used to call

19     them?

20        A.   Okay.  I have no information about any use of houses of worship

21     of the Islamic Community as a -- for military purposes.  I couldn't

22     obviously observe these during the war.  What I did try to observe as we

23     looked at damaged mosques is any signs that the building had been in the

24     middle of some fire-fight.  Usually when there is a fire-fight you would

25     expect lots of bullet-holes in the building.  And that was not common.

Page 7608

 1     More commonly you would see single catastrophic damage, like a large hole

 2     blasted in the building.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have

 5     Exhibit D004-2675 be called up.  And we are going to see this whole

 6     document page by page, until the last one.

 7        Q.   This is the cover page of the book.  You can see its title in

 8     English.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now quickly move to

10     page 2.  Next page, please.

11        Q.   Here you can see that this is a book published by the

12     State Archive of Kosovo, the archive sector of the

13     Kosovo Liberation Army.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

15        Q.   You see who was on the editorial board of this book.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  Can we

17     please zoom in to the photo along with the captions underneath.

18        Q.   Do you recognise this building?

19        A.   Yes, it looks like the mosque in Rogovo.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in only on

21     the textual part.

22        Q.   You can see what it says in English and the same reads in French,

23     Serbian, and Albanian.  It says that this is a mosque in Rogovo built in

24     the sixteenth century and that in 1998 and 1999 it served as a KLA

25     headquarter.  This picture was taken in April 1999.

Page 7609

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   We also see who the publisher is.  We don't need to enlarge this.

 4             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And now the last page, please.

 5        Q.   It is important because we have an ISBN number of the publisher

 6     on this page for the purpose of evidence.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] So as soon as we get the

 8     picture, I would like you to enlarge this particular line.  That's right.

 9     Thank you.  That would be all.

10             Your Honours, I offer this document to be admitted into evidence.

11     That's the first thing.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] And secondly, during the

14     examination of Witness Sabri Popaj, while my colleague Aleksandar Popovic

15     was doing the cross-examination, an identical photograph was marked for

16     identification:  D315.  Now I tender this to be admitted into evidence

17     because we have another confirmation by this witness that this is the

18     mosque in Rogova.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't think that's sufficient basis

21     for the tendering of this exhibit into evidence, and I believe it had

22     been marked for identification with an earlier witness.  But I don't --

23     the witness has not been asked any questions except for one regarding

24     that photograph.  And I don't believe it's sufficient for the tendering

25     of the entire document.

Page 7610

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Isn't it a photograph that features in the

 2     evidence-in-chief of this witness?

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  And on what basis then do you object to it?

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  I don't object to the page with the photograph.  I

 6     understand my learned colleague wants to tender the entire publication,

 7     but --

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it the whole book or the photograph that you

 9     are tendering?

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you look at the

11     record, I was very accurate.  I tendered the entire documentation shown

12     to be admitted through this witness.  So far we only had photograph that

13     was marked for identification, and I tender it to be admitted into

14     evidence because I think the conditions for that do exist.  So I'm

15     talking about the -- Sabri Popaj's evidence.  Therefore, only photograph

16     feature there, but with -- through this witness I would like to tender

17     all these documents including the photograph.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  But this witness has not been able to say anything

19     about the document beyond recognising the photograph of the damaged

20     mosque.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely in dispute,

22     whether this was actually the mosque in Rogovo or not.  I do not object

23     to the Chamber ruling on this later, but as far as this testimony is

24     concerned, I tender this whole set of photographs given by the Defence

25     under D004-2675 to be admitted into evidence.

Page 7611

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber is of the view, Mr. Djordjevic, that

 3     the one page, the photograph of the mosque, could be received if you

 4     think it is to serve a purpose of the Defence.  It is, of course, a

 5     duplication of a photograph that is presently marked for identification

 6     and it is, in my recollection, a photograph -- another copy of a

 7     photograph that is part of the evidence of the witness in chief.  But if

 8     you see reason for that photograph that you have shown the witness to be

 9     received, we will receive it, but not the whole book.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] There is no point in admitting

11     only the photograph because this same photograph was used in

12     examination-in-chief.  It is important for me to admit either everything

13     or nothing at all.  Why?  Because this was a publication published by the

14     KLA which shows that this mosque was used as the main headquarters of the

15     Kosovo Liberation Army.  This is what their publication says.  And for

16     that reason I think it is significant for it to be admitted into evidence

17     in its entirety because we maintain that this was the KLA headquarters

18     and this is what the book says.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE PARKER:  The answer, I'm afraid, remains as it was,

21     Mr. Djordjevic.  The witness has not been able to speak about the book or

22     that caption that you wanted.  At some other time you may want to discuss

23     with Ms. Kravetz whether she would agree to it or you may find a witness

24     who's able to identify the book and say something of its authorship and

25     reliability.  But this witness has contributed nothing to that in his

Page 7612

 1     evidence and knowledge.  Therefore, it's -- the only thing that we would

 2     admit is the photograph, and as you point out that's of no value because

 3     it's already in evidence as part of the evidence of this witness.  So

 4     the -- nothing will be received as an exhibit.

 5             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6     Actually, we dealt here with six pages from the book and the Defence

 7     wanted to offer evidence of the authenticity of this document and it was

 8     related to the question that I put to the witness, and that was whether

 9     he knows if any sacral buildings of the Islamic Community were used for

10     military purposes as well.  Therefore, the point of my putting this

11     document to the witness was precisely that.  But I will agree that there

12     are other ways to have this kind of documents admitted into evidence.

13     Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm going to proceed now.

14        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, my next question is the following.  In your

15     report you dealt with 607 mosques in Kosovo and Metohija.  It seems to me

16     that you mentioned some information bases dating from 1997.  First of

17     all, can you tell me how did you acquire this information?

18        A.   Okay.  I believe the date was slightly earlier than that.  I

19     don't have my report in front of me, but it should be easy enough to

20     check.  The number of 607 mosques in Kosovo comes from a publication of

21     the Islamic Community of Kosovo, their monthly entitled "Dituria Islame,"

22     that's D-i-t-u-r-i-a I-s-l-a-m-e, it means something like "Islamic

23     knowledge."  And it's an illustrated periodical with the usual expected

24     religious content, but it also includes occasional articles about the

25     history of the Islamic Community.  And there was an article in it, I

Page 7613

 1     believe it was 1993, I'd have to check, that listed the numbers of

 2     mosques in Kosovo.  607 was the total number of existent mosques.  The

 3     number that were in actual use were 463 or close to that.  And this was

 4     with reference to the conclusion of our report that in excess of a third

 5     of all mosques in Kosovo suffered some degree of damage during the war.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I still don't understand.  There's a sentence in your

 7     report which literally reads, and it's 2.3, the damage of the Islamic

 8     heritage.  Paragraph 2 reads as follows:

 9             "According to the statistical data published in 1993 ..."

10             What kind of statistical data are you referring to?  What's the

11     source of this data?

12        A.   I just mentioned the source which was this monthly put out by the

13     Islamic Community of Kosovo, which, as the central coordinating body of

14     the Islamic Community in Kosovo, actually administered these mosques.  If

15     they put out figures in their publication, I assume that they have some

16     basis for them.

17        Q.   I understand that, but you say:

18             "According to the statistical data published in 1993 ..."

19             It is official government bodies that provide statistical data,

20     not religious communities, that is why I'm asking you about the source.

21     You say 1993 there were six or seven mosques --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please speak slowly when he's

23     giving numbers and figures.

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So I'm asking you again what sort of official statistical data

Page 7614

 1     did you acquire dating back from 1993, if you can give me an answer.

 2        A.   Okay.  It is not my understanding that statistical data have to

 3     emanate from a government body.  In this case the body that actually

 4     operates and administers these mosques is the Islamic Community of

 5     Kosovo.  I think they would have a basis for knowledge of how many

 6     mosques there really are under their control on a given date.  And if

 7     they published that information, I assume that it can be relied upon.

 8        Q.   You just said that you assumed that one can rely on that.  Did

 9     you collate this information with some other data and did you personally

10     check the accuracy of the number of the mosques?

11        A.   I had no means of doing so.

12        Q.   Can you please tell me, did you use any information relating to

13     Roman Catholic places of worship in Kosovo?

14        A.   Yes.  The Roman Catholic community has a number of publications

15     that deal with the history of the Roman Catholic community in Kosovo.

16     It, however, did not include statistics of this kind.  It also did not

17     seem a particularly important figure to pursue, given that the damage to

18     Roman Catholic monuments was relatively limited.

19        Q.   Apparently you didn't understand me.  I asked you generally about

20     the number of Roman Catholic shrines in Kosovo, not about the damage that

21     they incurred, just the number.  First I asked you about the Islamic

22     ones.  Now I'm asking you about Roman Catholic churches.

23        A.   I don't know the numbers, sir.

24        Q.   Did you ever try to find out the number when you talked to

25     Reverend Puka that you mentioned.

Page 7615

 1        A.   The gentleman was Ambroz Ukaj, and he was parish priest in

 2     Djakovica, and I inquired of him about the churches in his area of

 3     Djakovica.  I had -- I made no inquiries with him about other parts of

 4     Kosovo.  He did indicate that a number of the churches and villages

 5     around Djakovica had been damaged or destroyed during the war, and these

 6     are included in my database.  I did, at a later point, stop in Prizren

 7     where the diocese of Kosovo is -- the Roman Catholic authorities in

 8     Kosovo are headquartered, and I asked there for information on damage to

 9     churches.  I did not ask about the total number of churches.

10        Q.   Speaking about St. Anton church in Djakovica, you said that

11     Father Ambroz Ukaj was all the time in Djakovica.  You also said in your

12     report that at one point the army vacated or evacuated the monastery and

13     removed all the clergy in order for them to occupy the church for their

14     own purposes.  Did you discuss the consequences of the shelling of the

15     nearby barracks that was close to the St. Anton church and how it all

16     affected the church itself?

17        A.   Yes.  That was the whole purpose of my conversation with him,

18     given that the allegation concerned damage to the church.  And I first

19     went and looked at the church and it had had the windows replaced, but

20     otherwise was in an undamaged condition.  And I asked him whether there

21     had been any damage to the church.  And he said, in fact, the NATO

22     air-strike had not destroyed either the rectory or the church other than

23     blowing out the windows; that the rectory had been used during the war by

24     the Yugoslav Army; and that when he was finally able to take possession

25     of the rectory again near the end of the war that there was damage to the

Page 7616

 1     rectory mainly from it being stripped of furniture, computers, and other

 2     equipment; and that it had been vandalised.  But beyond that, he offered

 3     no assessment as to what the effects of the bombing were on that church.

 4        Q.   Just a brief digression.  When you say "vandalised," you

 5     mentioned computers and furniture, do you mean that they were looted,

 6     that the computers and some of the church furniture were looted?

 7        A.   What he mentioned to me was that, first of all, the place had

 8     been looted; that all the contents basically were missing; that there

 9     were graffiti on the walls; and that the place had been smashed up, in

10     his words.  That's what.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In view of the fact that you talked a lot about the

12     damage of Islamic, as you say, cultural monuments, cultural monuments,

13     I'm going to ask you about -- before we go back to the Islamic monuments,

14     what you can tell us about the damage of the Serbian Orthodox heritage.

15     This is the first question that I will put to you, generally.

16        A.   Okay.  With respect to the Serbian Orthodox heritage, you will

17     note that our report has an entire section devoted to damage to Serbian

18     Orthodox heritage in Kosovo.  What we found was that there had been

19     damage to approximately 80 churches in Kosovo.  Some of these we visited

20     ourselves.  For others we obtained information primarily from the Serbian

21     Orthodox Church authorities with whom we exchanged information and

22     photographs.  They used some of ours; we used some of theirs.

23             We further found that the damage to Serbian Orthodox monuments

24     occurred after the end of the war in June, primarily during the three

25     months after the end of hostilities.  By the time we arrived in October,

Page 7617

 1     attacks had diminished but they sporadically continued.  And then, as we

 2     all know, in 2004 there were massive riots and some 30 further churches

 3     were vandalised or destroyed.

 4        Q.   This last thing you're thinking of the events of the

 5     17th of March, 1994, I assume, in Kosovo --

 6        A.   2004.

 7        Q.   2004.  Thank you.

 8             Can you please tell me how many locations of the Serbian Orthodox

 9     Church you toured during your first visit to Kosovo?

10        A.   I don't have the number at my finger tips, but I believe it's

11     mentioned in my report; if it's not, it should be easy enough to look up.

12     We probably visited about a dozen in all.  We kept the number fairly low

13     because we already had access to documentation about destruction which

14     the Serbian Orthodox Church had publicised, both on its web site and in

15     an illustrated publication called "Raspeto Kosovo," Crucified Kosovo.

16             Subsequent to that, a second augmented edition of the book came

17     out the following year, and we also used that as well as other

18     photographs that we obtained through correspondence with

19     Father Sava Janjic.  We did visit all of the churches concerning which

20     there had been allegations about damage during the war, and we did visit

21     all the main sites, such as the ones you mentioned earlier with reference

22     to the World Heritage Sites to determine their condition.  The places we

23     did not visit were places that were more difficult to access since our

24     time was limited and the roads were bad.  So, for example, we did not

25     visit the Orthodox monastery church at Musitiste, which is not far from

Page 7618

 1     Prizren but is down a very bad road and it would have taken us an extra

 2     day because there were more than half a dozen photographs of it already

 3     published on the Serbian Orthodox Church web site.

 4        Q.   Can you please tell me if you visited or looked at the Serbian

 5     cemeteries around the large Kosovo cities, Pristina, Pec, Djakovica, or

 6     any other towns in Kosovo?

 7        A.   As you will note, Your Honours, in the report in the introductory

 8     part we mention that we specifically excluded cemeteries and

 9     archaeological sites from our visit simply because, A, it would have

10     added significantly to the time required; and B, because it would have

11     been next to impossible to get comparative documentation as to what a

12     cemetery might have looked like a year before the war and what it looked

13     like after the war.  So it was not part of our official survey.  However,

14     since you asked, yes, I did see some vandalised cemeteries.

15        Q.   Well, yes, can you please be more precise, Serbian population,

16     Albanian, Catholic, Roman Catholic, some other?

17        A.   I saw damage to cemeteries, both Serbian Orthodox and Muslim

18     cemeteries.  Since your question referred to Serbian Orthodox cemeteries,

19     I saw damaged cemeteries near Mitrovica on my visit in 2001, that was the

20     Serbian Orthodox cemetery on the southern edge of the town Mitrovica,

21     gravestones had been overturned and it looked very thoroughly destroyed.

22     There were others in western Kosovo where there were damaged

23     Serbian Orthodox churches with cemeteries next to them with gravestones

24     that had been attacked.

25        Q.   Can you please tell me, you visited 144 places in total.  In

Page 7619

 1     those or out of those 144 places roughly, how many places were places of

 2     Islamic cultural heritage?  We heard that there were about ten about --

 3     related to the Serbian cultural heritage.  I don't know if you refer to

 4     any numbers regarding the Roman Catholic, and how many then out of those

 5     would be related to the Islamic cultural heritage?

 6        A.   Okay.  First of all, correction, it was more than ten.  I would

 7     say probably about 15.  I said earlier a dozen, so -- but that's about

 8     the order of magnitude, about 10 per cent of the places we visited.  In

 9     terms of the rest, I don't have the exact statistical breakdown.  It may

10     be mentioned in our report.  It was ten years ago, so I don't have the

11     figures in my head, although I once did.  That includes not only Islamic

12     but also historic residential architecture, general cultural institutions

13     such as museums and libraries and so forth.  So it's not that the

14     remaining 90 per cent is all Islamic.  It also, of course, includes the

15     Catholic churches, of which I think we visited maybe half a dozen.

16        Q.   Does that mean that you visited about 120 monuments of Islamic

17     architecture or cultural heritage, as you put it?

18        A.   That seems like an order of magnitude that's roughly correct.

19     Taken in a very broad sense, so that includes things like not just

20     mosques but Islamic schools, libraries, archives.

21        Q.   Thank you.  My next question relates to -- I mentioned one name.

22     You said you never heard of that name in the context of your report and

23     you were right.  I apologise because of that.  It is actually a person by

24     the name of --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand what the

Page 7620

 1     counsel said.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   -- and in your report in appendix 3 where you talk about

 4     allegations of the destruction of cultural heritage in Kosovo from

 5     1998 to 1999, especially in relation to the -- those reported by Yugoslav

 6     cultural and other institutions, you said:

 7             "The presentation of the Yugoslav government reproduced by many

 8     international experts on cultural heritage without trying independently

 9     to check these claims the same allegations of the Yugoslav government

10     by -- of damage inflicted on cultural monuments" --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  [No interpretation]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] I see that there was a problem, that what I was

14     doing seems to me I was doing too fast.  So I'm going to repeat again:

15             A presentation of the Yugoslav government.  Then they

16     reproduced -- which were reproduced by many international experts for the

17     cultural heritage without an attempt to independently confirm these

18     allegations.  Those same allegations of the Yugoslav government about the

19     damage inflicted on the cultural heritage were repeated also in the

20     memorandum which the Prosecutor's Office of the

21     International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia submitted -- or

22     submitted to the Tribunal by Professor Mitchel [sic] and others about the

23     alleged violations of international law by the governments and the

24     officials of the NATO countries.

25             First of all, do you know who Professor Mandel is?  Secondly,

Page 7621

 1     what is being disputed in reference to these allegations?  I know that

 2     you dealt with so-called false reports by the Yugoslav authorities on

 3     cultural monuments, but I would just like you to clarify what you said in

 4     your report.

 5        A.   Okay.  With reference to Professor -- it's not Mitchel,

 6     Michael Mandel, he is a professor of law at Osgoode Law School in Canada,

 7     and he took it upon -- Osgoode, that's O-s-g-o-o-d-e, hall, okay.  He

 8     took it upon himself to organise an informal tribunal held in New York.

 9     This informal tribunal was to judge war crimes allegedly committed by

10     NATO in its war against Yugoslavia in 1999.  And what I referred to is

11     that as part of its conclusions, this ad hoc tribunal accepted in its

12     whole the allegations that were published in the Yugoslav government

13     White Book.  And once it reached its conclusions, it forwarded them to

14     the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.  I don't

15     know what, if any, follow-up there was thereafter.  But the ad hoc

16     tribunal had no official standing of any sort, and it seemed to be

17     convened for certain purposes of the participants, not by any official

18     body.

19        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  You wrote in your report that

20     there were about 210 Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo.  Is this,

21     roughly speaking, the number that you would agree with?

22        A.   The 210 was the figure that was mentioned in the publication of

23     the Republican Institute for the Protection of Monuments as being

24     architecturally significant, culturally significant Orthodox sites in

25     Kosovo.  Obviously that does not include any number of village churches

Page 7622

 1     of recent vintage.  That would not have made it into a publication of the

 2     Institute for the Protection of Monuments.

 3        Q.   Thank you for this answer.  You have clarified a lot with this

 4     answer.  Are you familiar with the actual number of Orthodox places of

 5     worship in Kosovo, not just those of cultural, religious, or any other

 6     kind of special value, but just any church?  Do you know or did you get

 7     from the patriarchate of the Serbian Orthodox Church, i.e.,

 8     Father Sava Janjic, the correct total number of Serbian Orthodox churches

 9     in Kosovo and did you receive such information?  Were you interested in

10     this type of information at all, first of all?

11        A.   I was interested -- I'm sorry.  I should slow down.  I was

12     interested in the information, but I was not able to obtain a clear

13     figure.  The problem is that in all of the official publications of the

14     Yugoslav heritage authorities and of the Serbian Orthodox Church, there

15     is no distinction made in the compilations between churches that are

16     active, functioning places of worship, and churches that may be only

17     foundations or mentioned in medieval chronicles and no longer existent at

18     all.

19             If one includes all of the churches that ever existed in Kosovo;

20     for example, there was a book edited by Gojko Subotic called something

21     like, "Kosovo:  The Sacred Land," he lists over a thousand places, but

22     many of these are archaeological sites or merely churches that once

23     existed of which no trace remains above ground.  So I had great

24     difficulty in nailing down the figure.

25             As far as my communications with Father Sava were concerned,

Page 7623

 1     Father Sava was famous for being the cyber monk.  He was the only

 2     Orthodox church official in Kosovo to have access to the internet at this

 3     crucial period.  And it was very difficult to get through to him.  So our

 4     exchanges with him were largely confined to things like exchanging

 5     pictures.  Later on, when internet communication improved, the

 6     communications had to do with reconstruction projects.  And so I did not

 7     further pursue the question of statistics.  The statistics on the

 8     Islamic Community were included largely because they were available.

 9        Q.   Well, I hope I will be forgiven if I call the Serbian Orthodox

10     Church Eparchy by its wrong name, but I think it's called the

11     Raska Prizrenska Eparchy.  Any way, what you -- I believe that they have

12     detailed information about the Orthodox places of worship and shrines in

13     the area of Kosovo and Metohija.  So, again, I'm asking you if you

14     requested such information from the Raska Prizrenska Eparchy.

15        A.   Our focus was not on conducting a census of churches, but on

16     determining what had been damaged.  And I think in that our figures match

17     very closely what the Orthodox Eparchy of Raska and Prizren has itself

18     published concerning damage to its properties.

19        Q.   I don't know if you were aware of the problem that all localities

20     of the Serbian Orthodox Church were ghettos that were forbidden.  Not

21     even the faithful could go there during the war or immediately after the

22     war or move there safely.  Do you have information about that?  This also

23     means that the Orthodox priests could not have precise information about

24     the damage inflicted on the property of the Serbian Orthodox Church.  I

25     don't know if you are informed about this, Mr. Riedlmayer.

Page 7624

 1        A.   Actually, we followed up on these contacts with the Orthodox

 2     church ourselves; and by the time we submitted our report in the summer

 3     of 2001, there were no more surprises about what had or had not been

 4     damaged in Kosovo, although security conditions especially in the first

 5     year or two after the war were difficult.  I know for a fact that

 6     Father Sava travelled with KFOR military escort to virtually every place

 7     in Kosovo that had or once had a Serb population.  And so every time new

 8     information emerged, it was posted on his web site and we would add it to

 9     our report.  I'm not aware that in the intervening years there have been

10     any more revelations about things that were damaged in 1999 that we did

11     not know about.

12        Q.   That is unusual, strange, because you mentioned on several

13     occasion false reporting by the Yugoslav authorities about damage

14     inflicted to a property of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo.  So it

15     seems strange that you did not yourself personally try to check

16     information, even the information that was not accessible, about the

17     status of Serbian Orthodox monuments in Kosovo because the number of

18     protected churches, 210, represents one-third of all the total number of

19     mosques, those of cultural significance, smaller, minor cultural

20     significance.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not quite sure what the

22     counsel is saying.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, you're reading far too quickly and

24     it's -- the interpreter is having to indicate that they cannot follow

25     you.

Page 7625

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I am going to apologise.  I was

 2     not reading, I was speaking, so -- but it was a little bit fast.  And I

 3     am going to try to repeat my question and make it as brief as possible.

 4        Q.   The number of churches --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you notice at all the transcript of what you

 6     describe as your questions?  These are relatively short on the current

 7     page and they go for seven, eight, nine, ten lines, the short ones.

 8     You're having more of a debate than a question-and-answer session, I

 9     suspect.  If you could try short questions, short propositions, the

10     interpreters would find it easier and the witness may be able to answer

11     more directly.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm

13     going to try to do my best.

14        Q.   My question is:  Why did the witness pay attention to of all the

15     other cultural monuments in Kosovo, 80 per cent of the monuments of

16     Islamic culture, and another percentage of the Roman Catholic monuments;

17     but the real situation on the ground is not like that.  The real

18     situation is that there are a greater number of Christian places of

19     worship in Kosovo and Metohija than generally Serbian -- or Muslim ones.

20     And so why did he pay more attention to the Islamic monuments and only,

21     let's say, 20 per cent of the Christian monuments is the reason for that,

22     his interest in the Islamic culture.  And is that something that the

23     witness can agree with me and is that something that is in his report?

24        A.   In answer to your question, our focus on what had been destroyed

25     in the war and in its immediate aftermath.  To that extent we believe

Page 7626

 1     that our report is substantially complete.  It covers all the sites,

 2     regardless of its ethnic or religious background that were reported to

 3     have been damaged during the war.  It includes information not only from

 4     our personal site visits, but based on documentation from all sources

 5     that we considered reliable, whether it was the religious communities,

 6     the EU/IMG report, the monuments authorities, or other sources.

 7             I don't think it is fair to suppose that there should be, you

 8     know, some sort of question of pre-determined proportions.  We were not

 9     going down a list of churches or mosques and checking off which ones were

10     damaged and which ones were not.  Our focus was in following up

11     allegations.  And it is, I think, a reasonable supposition, given that

12     there are so many interested parties involved, the communities who had

13     the care of these buildings, that any damage that did occur would have

14     produced an allegation.  I hope that answers your question.

15             Finally, with regard to the Yugoslav government allegations, we

16     did, in fact, follow-up every single allegation in the Yugoslav

17     government White Book by actually visiting those sites.

18        Q.   I have to admit that I'm not fully satisfied with your answer,

19     but at the end I have to conclude, and you will agree with me hopefully,

20     that your job was, in fact, to verify the allegations of, as you call

21     them, interested parties relating to the accusations that their property

22     suffered damage; and that your mission was not intended to provide an

23     objective picture of the totality of the damage to the cultural heritage

24     in Kosovo, irrespective of any reports, either official or unofficial.

25     Would you agree with me on that?

Page 7627

 1        A.   I would not.  We did, in fact, make a good-faith effort to verify

 2     reports.  First of all, by doing percentage check of places on which

 3     documentation had been provided, and also by compiling a list of places

 4     for which there were allegations and then checking them against our own

 5     observations.  We found no sites for which the religious communities in

 6     particular had claimed damage where there was no damage.  Often the

 7     degree of damage was exaggerated or imperfectly stated.  But when the

 8     Islamic Community or the Orthodox community claimed that the site had

 9     been damaged, it usually was -- in fact, it always was.

10             Now, as to corroborating allegations, we did not include in our

11     report any allegations for which there was not corroborating evidence in

12     the form of photographs and by independent other sources which confirmed

13     the allegation.

14             So it was not merely a question of compiling various accusations,

15     it was a good-faith effort to determine to the best of our limited

16     abilities what the situation on the ground was.  If you are aware of

17     significant destruction that we missed, I would be very interested in

18     knowing about that.

19        Q.   As I understand you, you and Mr. Herscher started your job

20     immediately upon receiving information that huge damage was inflicted on

21     the cultural heritage in Kosovo, and as an expert you felt it your duty

22     to react.  After all this vandalism and devastation and razing to the

23     ground of many Serbian monasteries relating to the events of the

24     17th of April, 2004, did you feel that your duty was to inform the world

25     public about what had happened to this particular segment of the cultural

Page 7628

 1     heritage of Kosovo?

 2        A.   If you will check the updated copy of my resume, you will see

 3     that I collaborated with Cultural Heritage Without Borders in their

 4     report on the damage to Serbian Orthodox heritage in the March 2004

 5     riots.  So I had the interest, but I didn't have the funding to go out

 6     and start a new field research.  Besides, there were other parties

 7     already engaged in that.  The reason for undertaking our 1999 survey was

 8     precisely the information that it seemed like there was no one else

 9     trying to do that kind of work at that time.

10        Q.   I wouldn't agree, but as His Honour Judge Parker said, it is not

11     my place to debate these issues with you.

12             Can you tell me, please, did you verify the facts stated by

13     Mr. Bajgora, the then-deputy of the mufti of the Islamic Community in

14     Kosovo relating to the book referred to in your report entitled:  Serbian

15     Barbaric Acts Against the Albanian Heritage in Kosovo?  Did you address

16     this particular issue?

17        A.   I'm familiar with the book.  I have seen it.  The photos

18     published in the book are all photos that I already had, so our report is

19     not based on that report -- on that book.  Other than that, I cannot

20     really characterise the text part of the book.  I did not read it very

21     carefully.  It seemed in the same general tone as the publications of the

22     Serbian Orthodox Church complaining about the ways in which it felt

23     itself to have been victimised.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, please, Mr. Feiz Drancoli [phoen],

25     he was the director of the Institute for the Protection of Cultural

Page 7629

 1     Monuments of Kosovo and you had a working relationship with him, didn't

 2     you?  I don't know his last name, whether it's Trancoli or Drancoli, but

 3     first name Feiz.

 4        A.   It's Drancoli.

 5        Q.   You say that you visited with him Junik and Rogovo; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Actually, he came with us on one of the days that we went out on

 8     the tour, and we visited a large number of sites in Pec, in Drsnik,

 9     Gjakova, Junik, Rogovo, a number of places -- no, wait a minute, I'm not

10     sure he was with us in Rogovo, but in western Kosovo anyway.  And his

11     function largely was to act as a guide.  Some of these places like

12     Nivokaz, which I just mentioned, are on unmarked roads and would have

13     been hard for us to find.  He was familiar with the sites.  He would show

14     us where things were.  He had no input on our assessments.

15        Q.   Since you were dealing with the consequences but at the same time

16     with the causes of damage, when you visited Junik and Rogovo did you hear

17     from any witness that the KLA headquarters used to be there?

18        A.   I did not hear any such information.  In the case of Junik, of

19     course, it's well-known from news reports that this was the case.

20        Q.   My question refers particularly to the witnesses that you've

21     spoken to, but thank you anyway for this answer.  You said that the

22     Institute for the Protection of Culture and Monuments of Kosovo lost its

23     archive because in 1999, during the withdrawal of the army and the police

24     of Yugoslavia under the Kumanovo Agreement from Kosovo in June, the

25     entire archive of the Institute for the Protection of Culture and

Page 7630

 1     Monuments was transferred to Serbia.  Is that correct?  Are you familiar

 2     with this?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you tell me, please, in view of the nature of your job and

 5     your interest in Kosovo, did you visit Serbia to review the archive of

 6     the Institute for the Protection of Culture and Monuments of Kosovo?

 7        A.   I did not.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The next set of my questions will refer to a couple

 9     of things that we discussed yesterday, primarily the part that relates to

10     the questions put to you by His Honour Judge Parker, namely, this was

11     about the photographs that you provided the OTP from the allegedly known

12     sources immediately before this trial began and this was in July.  I'm

13     talking about specifically the mosque in Cirez.  Did you ever visit this

14     mosque yourself?  Let us be very accurate and specific.  Did you see it

15     with your own eyes?

16        A.   We drove by it on a return to Pristina from a day's surveying.

17     It was late, it was dark, and we did not stop.  I did not include it

18     among the sites personally visited because I did not stop to make a

19     survey, but I know where it is.

20        Q.   Of course you know where it is, that's understandable, but you

21     said that it was dark while you were passing by the mosque.  Were you

22     able to see the mosque in the dark, or were you not able to see it at

23     all?

24        A.   I saw it from the road.  It's visible from the road, but I did

25     not stop to make a survey, in part because there was no possibility of

Page 7631

 1     making photographs.  As you will see, however, there are -- the

 2     photographs I have are from multiple sources, including the EU/IMG

 3     survey.  They have a photograph as well.

 4        Q.   That's what you already explained and I'm not going to ask you

 5     any further questions about this; however, from the photographs that we

 6     have seen - and I don't think it's necessary for us to see them again,

 7     it's already admitted into evidence, it's P0133.  We all perfectly well

 8     remember these photographs we saw yesterday.  Quite simply, when you look

 9     at these three domes and this large arch, I have no way of comparing them

10     with the previously early -- existing mosque in Cirez.  In other words, I

11     was not even able to find any locations that would give me some

12     bench-marks indicating that we are talking about the same site.  I don't

13     know if you went into this problem at any length, and if you have nothing

14     to say about this it's okay.  I'm not going to press the matter.

15        A.   Well, since you brought it up, I was interested enough after

16     yesterday's event to take another look at the photographs.  And if they

17     could be shown on the monitor I could point out something that I noticed

18     on a second look.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, are you wanting that to be done

20     now or are you watching time very closely?

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I am watching the time, and

22     perhaps it would be better that we deal with this after the break because

23     this is a separate subject that I have for this witness and I'm

24     definitely going to finalise my cross-examination today.  Maybe we can

25     take a break earlier and then finish earlier, before we move to a new

Page 7632

 1     topic.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

 3             We will have a break now and resume in half an hour at ten

 4     minutes to 1.00.  And it may be possible, Mr. Djordjevic, if you

 5     coordinate with the Court Officer to ensure and the right exhibits are

 6     ready to be displayed.

 7             We'll have a further break now, Mr. Riedlmayer, and resume in

 8     half an hour's time.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  And that final session should be the end of your

11     evidence.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we, please, now have on our screens an exhibit that is

18     already in evidence, that's P01132 MFI.  These are, in fact, two

19     photographs on pages 2 and 3, and if we can have them juxtaposed on the

20     screen together -- actually, only the upper photograph, not the lower

21     one.

22             If I understand correctly, this is being done at the request of

23     Mr. Riedlmayer because he wanted to provide some additional information

24     if I'm not wrong.

25             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.

Page 7633

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And I believe that this is what you actually wanted to see, I

 3     suppose.

 4        A.   These are the photographs I wanted because I was not satisfied

 5     with the photographs that I already had; they didn't show the building

 6     from comparable angles.  This one is comparable.  Would you like me to

 7     comment on it?

 8             What I noticed, Your Honours, is, as you may recall yesterday

 9     there was a question of how a mosque with a ground floor and an upper

10     floor suddenly is reduced to only the arcade with the back missing and

11     the three domes resting atop the arcade.  And the question was:  Is this

12     a different mosque?  And my surmise was that the arcade had simply

13     collapsed, I mean -- I'm sorry, the storey on top of the arcade has

14     simply collapsed from the blast.

15             What I noticed upon examining these photos again last night in my

16     room is something that I failed to point out yesterday.  Namely, if you

17     look at the left-hand photo which is a relatively recent photo and look

18     carefully under the left-hand small dome you can see a bit of the sky.

19     And I don't know if it's possible to zoom in at all, but I could see the

20     contrast both by zooming in.  And by darkening the photo, you can see

21     that that is not an element of the building under the dome that is

22     actually a bit of the sky.

23             And what you can also see is, in front of the three domes that

24     are in a very unusual uncharacteristic pattern of the front dome -- of

25     the central dome being in front of the two sides domes, there are

Page 7634

 1     remnants of two supporting columns.  And if you look at the two -- in the

 2     pre-war photo in the same positions you can see the concrete columns that

 3     support the roof and the second storey right above the central arcade.

 4     And I believe those are the stubs.

 5             So my explanation for this photo is -- I mean, for the damage is

 6     that a rather large blast levelled the main prayer hall of the mosque,

 7     the space under the large dome, and in the process also blew out the

 8     superstructure, the upper storey above the arcade.  And that the three

 9     small domes which is are prefabricated simply landed on the vacated

10     space.

11             For this it's also useful to understand what the structure is

12     made of.  Basically it's a concrete skeleton and the red material is very

13     light, hollow brick.  So that would very easily be affected by such a

14     blast.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that.

16             Is there more you wish to ask, Mr. Djordjevic?

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, can we reduce the

18     left-hand photograph to its original size.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Can you tell me, this photograph taken before the war of this

20     mosque and the photograph on the left, do you know the exact dates when

21     these pictures were taken?  That's my first question.

22        A.   Yes, Mr. Djordjevic, I do know them.  The photograph on the right

23     was taken during the Bajram in 1998, that is April of 1998.  In the

24     photograph below it you can actually see the overflow congregation in

25     front of the mosque performing the holiday prayer.  The photograph on the

Page 7635

 1     left was taken in July, this year, by Mr. Hamiti when he took the trip

 2     from Pristina to Cirez.

 3        Q.   And the other one was taken in 2000 and?

 4        A.   The other one, the pre-war picture, was taken in 1998.  And the

 5     post-war picture is from 2009.

 6        Q.   2009.  Thank you.  All I can see in this photograph is that the

 7     overhead power line run in a totally different direction compared to the

 8     pre-war one, but let's go back to the first photograph.  So let's keep

 9     the photograph on the left taken in 2009 and instead of the one which is

10     actually number 2 can we have photograph number 1 from the same exhibit,

11     please.  Thank you.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to zoom

13     in the central part of photograph number 1 where you can see two open

14     windows which actually look onto a house and there is a car there too.

15     So a little more to the right, please.

16        Q.   In this photograph we can see a building relatively close to this

17     building that we're looking at.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please zoom out now to

19     have the photograph back to its original size.  We can also see a kind of

20     vehicle there as well.

21        Q.   If we were to accept that this was the same building, it could

22     have been photographed, if we look at the left-hand side from the

23     direction of the smaller electrical pole that we see.  This is what it

24     seems to look like.  However, closer where we see this bigger electrical

25     pole, we don't see the house that we were able to see through the

Page 7636

 1     openings in this other photograph, it's missing, although it was a new

 2     house.  We can see that it has a roof and everything.  So this also is

 3     something that throws some doubt on exactly what happened.

 4             I noticed that the domes are absolutely undamaged on the left

 5     photograph in comparison to the photograph on the right.  There is also

 6     an arch here which we did not see on any of the photographs that were

 7     showing the mosque.  So can you please comment on this.

 8        A.   Gladly.  First of all, note that the photograph on the left was

 9     taken ten years after the photograph on the right.  The photograph on the

10     right was taken in the summer of 1999.  Secondly, you will note that the

11     alignment of the three domes matches your surmise, namely, that the view

12     is from the rear of the building, from the distant power pole because the

13     central dome is forward of the two side domes.

14             What you will also note is that in the very recent photo the

15     concrete domes are absolutely bare.  The metal cladding has been taken

16     off.  It's essentially aluminum sheeting.  And what is damaged in the

17     photo at right is the aluminum sheeting which has been removed.  As you

18     noted when you zoomed in there were a lot of loose hollow bricks.  You

19     will note that in the post-war photo of 2009 all the hollow bricks have

20     been cleared away, presumably because they were reusable.

21             So my only explanation for the missing building and missing car

22     is that both the car and the building have left the scene in the last ten

23     years.  I also have other photos which I did not bring into court because

24     they were somewhat duplicative, but showing the same scene from a broader

25     angle.  A new mosque has been rebuilt to the left of the ruined one, with

Page 7637

 1     the ruins left intact.  And so there have been some alterations to the

 2     scene; in a ten-year period that is not unusual.  The house that you see

 3     looks like a very odd building, and it's -- although it has a roof, it

 4     seems to be missing its windows.  So I assume that like the hollow bricks

 5     from the ruined mosque, it too was carted away.  That's the only thing.

 6             Now, as to the arch-like structure.  It is in my view actually

 7     present in the 2009 picture.  If you look carefully under the left-hand

 8     dome you can see some trace of it.  What it is it's not an arch; it's

 9     essentially a stiff structure, something like metal or tar paper.  If you

10     still have the other photos from -- the ones from my database that were

11     exhibited, they show it very clearly hanging from the side in that

12     picture we had yesterday, the one that viewed the building from the side.

13     What it was is the internal section of the roof that supported the large

14     dome of the mosque.  It's now been cut in half and it's hanging down.

15             But the fact that you can see the sky underneath the dome on the

16     left, in the 2009 picture, to me indicates that that dome is not in its

17     original position, that it is very plausible that its support has been

18     knocked out and it simply landed that way.

19        Q.   This is all at the level of an assumption, and we can all agree

20     with that.  However, this photograph that was taken immediately after the

21     destruction of the mosque where we see the damaged domes, a vast majority

22     of material that should still be there from the part that had fallen

23     through should in any case be visible on the ground.  However, the parts

24     that we see are mainly parts of the armature.  They're not the hollow

25     bricks.  There's simply a lot of material that is missing which we should

Page 7638

 1     be able to see as the photograph was taken shortly after the mosque was

 2     destroyed in 1999.  Can you please deal a little bit more with this

 3     point.

 4        A.   Yes.  What we're looking at is the interior of the entrance

 5     facade which would have been relatively shielded.  It still has the roof

 6     of the first -- of the ground floor on it.  If you look at the -- I don't

 7     know if we can get those exhibits back, but the two pictures that were in

 8     my database --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  I believe they're coming up now.

10             THE WITNESS:  All right.  The photograph you see on top there - I

11     don't know if it's possible to zoom in - okay the photograph you see on

12     top, it is my contention that was taken from the right side of the

13     mosque.  So if you were facing the mosque directly towards the entrance,

14     it would be the right side of the building.  And so what I believe you

15     are seeing here is that red stiff structure is the base of the dome

16     that's hanging down and looking like an arch in the other picture which

17     was taken from the right-hand side, from where you see that rubble.

18             And so there is plenty of rubble to be seen, but the main part of

19     the mosque that collapsed was the part to the right of the little dome

20     and that's where you would expect to see the rubble.  There is also

21     rubble in front of the mosque which I believe may be that second storey

22     that was blown out when the mosque was destroyed.  Of the three domes,

23     all you can see is the profile of the far right one because it is taken

24     directly from the right-hand side.  You can see behind it perhaps --

25     no -- well, what you can see on top of it is a little bit of that

Page 7639

 1     peeled-away aluminum sheeting.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to zoom

 3     in on the top photograph only, please.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   On this photograph we see one dome with some damage on it.  We

 5     can see that it is covered with aluminum.  However, I cannot say or agree

 6     that the other two domes are visible.  In view of the configuration that

 7     they were in, at least one of them would be in -- would be visible.  They

 8     were asymmetrical.  One of them was in front and the two were behind.  So

 9     this photograph actually creates even more doubt in my mind as to the

10     authenticity of the material you provided.

11             And also, the fact is that none of these red walls is visible on

12     any of the photographs, especially not from these construction materials.

13     And the photographs were taken approximately around the same time in

14     1999, after they were destroyed.  So I don't even see the arches here.  I

15     don't see any part of the concrete construction.  And the details that we

16     see on the other photographs were exclusively made out of cement.  They

17     do have some brickwork and tiles on the roof, but this creates a problem

18     for me.

19             We see a woods -- wood behind the building.  We see a large tree

20     to the right.  We see the power transmission lines, how they lie.  So, I

21     mean, really, if you have any other comments I would like to hear it, but

22     I have not managed to convince myself that it is actually exactly that

23     same building.

24        A.   Okay.  Well, I'm sorry for the bad resolution on this.  Because

25     it's in the database, it had to be kept low.  But you can, if you look

Page 7640

 1     very carefully, see another dome to the right of the one, just the lower

 2     part of it.  And the reason you don't see the middle dome, at least not

 3     obviously here, is because the photograph is not directly level with the

 4     domes but slightly from the rear of the building.  So what you see is the

 5     two rear domes, the two flanking domes, one very clearly with the

 6     peeled-up metal sheeting and the other one behind it.

 7             Now, as for the red, the red is the tar paper roof basically.

 8     And you see it in the black-and-white photograph not from the side but

 9     from the rear of the building, and the reason it looks like an arch is

10     because it had a big circle cut out for it for the main dome.  And here

11     you can see it collapsed.  You can see other parts of it lying on the

12     ground.  But the part that is attached to the partially intact part of

13     the building is hanging down, which is why it forms an arch in the

14     black-and-white photo.  I think there is plenty of construction material

15     to be seen here, and the concrete elements you refer to are the same ones

16     you can see in the pre-war photos.

17             The window at the left and -- is the window at the side of the

18     front arcade, which is also visible in the post-war photo.  The reason

19     you cannot see the woods in the distance in any of the pre-war photos is

20     none of the pre-war photos were from this angle.  The people praying were

21     on the other side of the mosque and then the only other angles we had is

22     a view directly towards the entrance and a view from the rear towards the

23     entrance.  So you never had this angle before.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  I suspect that we have exhausted what can be said

25     and viewed about this.  Thank you both.  And we will consider --

Page 7641

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour.  You

 2     are correct.  The house is missing here which could be seen before.  A

 3     lot of that is still in doubt.  But anyway, I will continue with my

 4     questions, and I will bring my cross-examination slowly to an end.

 5        Q.   I would be interested in the following:  Do you have the

 6     statistical data regarding the mosques that were presented to you by the

 7     Prosecutor and which you also discussed in your report, do you have

 8     records of how many places in a municipality you visited?  This is how

 9     I'm going to put this question to you.  I'm not going to ask you about it

10     in another way.

11        A.   I don't have a statistical breakdown by municipality, but with

12     the use of my database it would be very easy to establish.  But it would

13     take a bit of time.  I'm not sure what the -- what you are trying to find

14     out here.

15        Q.   Actually, I'm not trying, but I would wish to find out how many

16     places you interpreted the data from without actually visiting these

17     places, where you reached your conclusions on the basis of photographs.

18     Because we are talking about a mosque which could be of a later date, if

19     it is the same mosque at all.

20             Anyway, the question has to do with the overall report of yours.

21     I would like you just to tell us, out of these 144 locations that are

22     covered in your report, how many of those locations did you actually

23     visit; or, if you prefer, how many of those locations did you actually

24     not visit?

25        A.   Okay.  The 144 locations that you mention are the locations we

Page 7642

 1     actually visited.  The report covers a great many more places than that.

 2     So we visited 144 of the sites that are documented in the report.  If you

 3     wish, I can point out on a map of Kosovo where we went, but basically we

 4     covered the larger part of the area of Kosovo, the places where we did

 5     not go tended to be places far from the main highways and where

 6     communications were difficult.  We also didn't go to the far northern end

 7     of Kosovo, to Leposavic, because there had been no allegations of damage

 8     to cultural property up there.  So Mitrovica is as far north as we went.

 9     But we went to south-east Kosovo, to west Kosovo, central Kosovo, the

10     north, Prizren.  We covered a lot of area.  For places that we did not

11     visit, we relied on photographs, as you say.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But that was not my question.  You already talked

13     about the things that you -- the locations that you visited in your

14     report, so evidently I cannot get the answer to the question that I am

15     putting.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Anyway, I would like to see

17     P0111 [as interpreted], that exhibit on the screen, please.

18        Q.   You will see this is the white mosque in Suva Reka.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I see in the transcript that it

20     is -- in the transcript there are only three 1s, one 1 is missing, there

21     should be four 1s.

22             Can we look at this top photograph.  I think that is the mosque

23     that we are interested in.  Very well.

24        Q.   Yesterday you talked about it so I'm not going to dwell on what

25     you talked about.  Can you please tell me, the source of information as

Page 7643

 1     to the manner of the damage of this mosque is just the report from the

 2     people you received on the ground, the people from the Islamic Community,

 3     or are there any other reports about the damage that you looked at in the

 4     case of this particular mosque?

 5        A.   Well, the manner of the damage is something we determined through

 6     first-hand inspection.  As I explained in direct examination, we went

 7     inside the mosque, outside the mosque, looked at the type of damage to

 8     the minaret, and concluded from that how the minaret was damaged, namely,

 9     an explosion was set off inside the minaret.  And the rest of the damage

10     can largely be explained by the falling of the minaret.

11        Q.   Were you aware of allegations of the Yugoslav authorities that

12     NATO bombed the OUP Suva Reka and that one bomb fell in the immediate

13     vicinity of this mosque and that it was damaged by it?  Did you find out

14     about this?  Just answer briefly.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You didn't comment on this yesterday.

17        A.   Well, I -- I remember that there was such a thing in the

18     White Book because we did the entire section of the two White Books

19     published by the Yugoslav authorities that dealt with cultural property.

20     What we did note is that the kind of damage seen here is not consistent

21     with the mosque having been hit by any projectile from the outside.  The

22     blast came from the inside.

23        Q.   You've told us that you didn't have any technical knowledge and

24     that you are making some conclusions on the basis of common sense, and

25     that in some cases this was the only criteria for your assessments and

Page 7644

 1     evaluation.  Did you engage any experts, technical experts, to help you

 2     to assess the damage of this mosque?

 3        A.   We did no technical testing.  However, as I showed in the direct

 4     examination, the pattern of damage to the mosque was such that even

 5     without technical testing you could tell that the base of the minaret had

 6     ballooned outwards and that elements of it were sticking out by 10, 20,

 7     30 centimetres.  And consider that we have a pre-war photo on this same

 8     page of the minaret taken from the side and -- I cannot imagine a

 9     scenario - and I admit I'm not a military expert - where munitions would

10     travel through the minaret to the base before setting off this huge blast

11     which blew apart the minaret's base.  It just doesn't seem to make sense

12     to me.

13             I've seen in the process of my report on Kosovo but also in

14     subsequent reports in Bosnia literally hundreds of buildings that have

15     been damaged by various means.  And I would still say in retrospect, with

16     the knowledge that I now have, the same thing, that this minaret was

17     blown up from within and not the result of some projectile hitting it.

18     Beyond that, all you have is the informant reports which we have

19     discussed already.  So I see no need to repeat them.

20        Q.   I think that you allowed yourself to deal with something that you

21     should not have really been dealing with because you are not an expert,

22     but let us quickly move to the following topic and then after that to the

23     last topic, after which I'm going to complete my cross-examination.

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look on the --

25     see on the screen something that has already been admitted into evidence,

Page 7645

 1     and this is P01109.  Can we zoom in on this photograph, please.  Can we

 2     please zoom in on the top part of the photograph.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   This is, you would agree with me, the library of the

 4     Hadum mosque, the Sulejman Efendi Hadum mosque?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   There was some talk about it being damaged in a fire just like

 7     the rest of the old city centre around it and close to it, but we can see

 8     that the walls are completely white towards the floor and that the

 9     building is halved practically.  So it does not seem to me that there was

10     a fire here.  What did you say yesterday relating to the reasons and the

11     causes of damage of this library?

12        A.   Okay.  Consider that the library is a building composed mostly of

13     masonry.  The wooden elements were relatively small.  They consisted of

14     the floor which supported the upper story which you see here.  It's the

15     upper storey that had the book niches and windows.  You cannot see it

16     very well on this photo, but you can see, if you look carefully, a dark

17     line at the bottom of the place where the floor was.  What that was was

18     charred wooden elements of the floor still sticking out from the wall.

19     You can also see at the left-hand wall a niche.  These were the niches

20     that held the book-shelves, and once again there are charred book-shelves

21     in there.

22             If the library, as is alleged from various accounts and as also

23     we can see from that aerial photo that I showed -- that I commented on

24     during the direct examination, if the library was burned in March and

25     then the library cut in half by the falling minaret in May, this whole

Page 7646

 1     interior would have been exposed to the elements for a period of

 2     approximately five months after the minaret fell on it.

 3             Now, I know for a fact that the minaret did fall on it, A,

 4     because I observed pieces of the minaret, identifiable as such, in the

 5     rubble when I first personally inspected the building in October of 1999,

 6     but also, since as you know, I and Mr. Herscher were involved in the

 7     post-war reconstruction of the Hadum mosque.  We actually went to the

 8     scene in October of 2000 and went through the rubble and found

 9     identifiable elements of the balcony of the minaret, carved panels, which

10     have been used in the restoration as models for the replacement.  So I

11     don't think there is a great deal of doubt that what cut this building in

12     half was the top of the minaret which fell on it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you to your answer.  Still, I still don't see

14     the tar and the soot that we would be seeing on the walls --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down and repeat

16     his question.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you know that on the 11th and the 15th of April there was a

19     bombing that damaged the library and the Hadum mosque?

20        A.   I know that there are allegations in -- by the Yugoslav

21     government that the Hadum mosque was damaged by bombardment.  All I can

22     speak to is what I observed and the conclusions I can draw from that.

23        Q.   I am familiar with your conclusions.  The only thing that I'm

24     interested in is your conclusion regarding the allegation by Yugoslav

25     authorities, and perhaps you will agree with me if I were to say that you

Page 7647

 1     think that this as a consequence of the NATO bombing is something that is

 2     absolutely ruled out as a cause from your point of view?

 3        A.   Yes, I would agree that I do not believe this to be the result of

 4     an air attack, neither the damage to the mosque nor the damage to the

 5     library.  But as you will note, I was not present when the destruction

 6     occurred, so the conclusions I draw are limited by the evidence of the

 7     damage that I can see.

 8        Q.   I'm asking you once more, did you use services of military

 9     experts when you drew up your findings --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  No need to ask the question, Mr. Djordjevic.  We

11     understand from the witness without hesitation that he sought no expert

12     assistance.  So to save you time, you don't need to ask again.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour.  I

14     have concluded my cross-examination with this.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.

17             Ms. Kravetz.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  I have no questions in re-examination, Your Honour.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Riedlmayer, I refer you to a photograph you

22     took showing a mosque classified in the top damaged category.  I think it

23     was taken in October 1999.  Now, you also encircled a brown and yellow

24     building that was, you said, close to the mosque and that building was

25     intact.

Page 7648

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, can you give us some idea what was the

 3     distance between that building and the mosque?

 4        A.   I would say we are dealing with a building that is at least a

 5     hundred metres if not more removed in the background.  The empty field of

 6     rubble you see in that photo --

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.

 8        A.   -- consisted not only of the site of the mosque but also of the

 9     shops of an Albanian bazaar that surrounded it.  It was the entire walk

10     around there, surrounded on three sides by modern buildings that was

11     demolished.  The modern buildings were intact.  Some of the modern

12     buildings were quite close to the mosque, much closer than the building

13     in the background.  I marked that merely so you could understand how the

14     mosque appeared.  If you wish, I can point it out on the screen but --

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  There's no need.  There's no need.  Thank you very

16     much indeed.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Riedlmayer, that

18     that concludes the questions for you.  The Chamber is appreciative indeed

19     of the assistance you have been able to give, the time you've spent here,

20     and we're grateful that you've been able, again, to come to The Hague.

21     Thank you very much for those matters.  You may now, of course, go back

22     to your other activities.  You go with our thanks.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour.

Page 7649

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Before we conclude today, I just wanted to make an

 3     application regarding one of the last -- actually, the last exhibit I

 4     used with this witness yesterday, this is P1137.  We have just been able

 5     to locate a colour version of that exhibit.  The version I used yesterday

 6     was a black-and-white one, and the photographs there were not as clear as

 7     in the colour versions.  I would just ask your leave to replace the

 8     version currently in e-court with that coloured version.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  It's not in e-court yet I take it?

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, it is, I'm sorry, and I didn't mention the

11     name -- the number of the exhibit is P1137.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  That's the black-and-white?

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Is the colour in e-court?

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, no, no.  We can either attach it to the back or

16     replace the version in e-court, as Your Honours wish.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  The colour photograph may be added to the present

19     exhibit.  Don't delete what's there; add is our view.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I just want to tell shortly, I agree with that.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Another matter, Your Honour --

22             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm grateful.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- the photographs that were being discussed, the

24     four -- the set of four photographs of the Cirez mosque, this is P1132

25     marked for identification, I would seek to tender those photographs into

Page 7650

 1     evidence given the extensive cross-examination on them.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber is conscious that there's a deal of

 4     evidence to be considered about these exhibits, but in view of the

 5     adherence of the witness to his opinion, the Chamber would receive those

 6     exhibits in evidence, and in due course will reach its findings as to the

 7     subject matter of those photographs and whether or not it is in a

 8     position to accept the opinion of the expert about them.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  So the -- those marked for identification will now

11     become exhibits with the same number.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  One unrelated matter concerns next week's witness

13     scheduling, and I just wanted to inquire with the Court regarding our

14     scheduling -- our sitting time for Wednesday afternoon.  It was my

15     understanding that originally Wednesday afternoon was suspected to be a

16     shorter sitting day, but we saw on the court calendar circulated

17     yesterday that it's now -- we're now scheduled to sit up until 7.00 p.m.

18     And we just wanted to confirm that that was the case.

19             And I should point out the reason I'm bringing this up is because

20     we have two witnesses next week as you know.  Both of them will not be

21     able to return to the Tribunal for testimony beyond next week, and we

22     would really try to -- we will make our utmost effort to try to complete

23     the testimony of both of those witnesses next week.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  More than one comment needs to be made,

25     Ms. Kravetz.  First, the Chamber observes that there have been now a

Page 7651

 1     growing number of witnesses in which it has been -- in respect of which

 2     it has been said, Well, the witness now has to leave so the time

 3     available for evidence must be curtailed.

 4             The Chamber - and I'm sure Defence counsel with us - try to

 5     accommodate the other commitments of witnesses, and that will be so next

 6     week with these witnesses.  But if it does not prove possible to

 7     adequately deal with the evidence of those two witnesses in the time that

 8     they presently plan to make themselves available, then it will be

 9     necessary for that -- arrangements to be made for one or other of those

10     witnesses to return at an appropriate time to finish their evidence.

11             While all, I'm sure, endeavour to meet with and cooperate with

12     their commitments, we've got to ensure that there's an adequate time

13     available for the evidence.  And if that isn't happening in a case, the

14     matter must be dealt with by the witness coming back.

15             As for the sitting next week, I have not seen the latest

16     programme that you've mentioned, but our order has been that we will

17     commence sitting at 1.30 on Wednesday.  We did that in the understanding

18     that there -- the courtroom is needed late in the day for another matter.

19     Whether or not that is still the case, I do not know, but we will retain

20     our commencement at 1.30, following the Judges' Plenary meeting, which is

21     commencing at 9.00.  And that may then provide a means of ensuring that

22     we can finish the evidence of both witnesses.

23             We will, of course, expect the Prosecution and the Defence to be

24     extremely attentive to relevance with respect to both witnesses, in the

25     hope that indeed their evidence can finish next week.  Three full days

Page 7652

 1     for these two witnesses ought to be feasible if attention is paid to

 2     relevance and questions are directed to the important issues.  But it

 3     could be that some extra time will be available on the Wednesday with the

 4     sitting commencing at 1.30, depending on something I do not presently

 5     know, whether or not another matter will continue in the courtroom late

 6     in the afternoon.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you for that, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that you

10     already said everything that I intended to say, and I hope that the OTP

11     would have the similar understanding when our case starts.  We have

12     postponed some of the witnesses, and we are prepared to work full time.

13     This will not present a problem but within the limits of our

14     capabilities.  However, lots depends on how we are going to work on

15     Wednesday.  The explanation that this witness can only come now and never

16     again, I don't think that, as you said, is something that is subject to

17     discussion.  A witness must be available to the court whenever the Court

18     decides, so I'm not going to comment on this any further.

19             Once I receive information about what is going to happen on

20     Wednesday, I will take the liberty to address my learned friends from the

21     OTP if there are any problems.  But in any case, you can count on the

22     Defence to do their best to maintain and put into practice this agreement

23     that we have just reached.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.

25             In part, of course, it is the fact that we have arranged not to

Page 7653

 1     sit on Thursday and Friday to allow counsel to return to their homes,

 2     which puts us under a time pressure of those three days only next week.

 3     So we would expect full cooperation in an endeavour to finish the

 4     evidence of those two witnesses.

 5             We can now adjourn for the weekend and look forward to seeing you

 6     refreshed on Monday for the last three days of this term.  And I believe

 7     on Monday we commence at 9.00 in the morning.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of

10                           July, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.