090831IT

Page 8630

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I would like to point out with regard

2 to that that Mr. Phillipps only arrived today, so he's only going to be

3 available to start his testimony tomorrow because he's currently being

4 proofed. He only flew in this morning to The Hague -- to Amsterdam.

5 JUDGE PARKER: That will mean that you will need -- well,

6 whoever's taking him to be very, very quick tomorrow morning to give

7 Mr. Djurdjic adequate time.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour, we'll take note of that.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

12 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation that

14 is shown to you now.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 WITNESS: DREN CAKA

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

19 Now Ms. Kravetz has some questions for you.

20 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

22 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state your full name for the

23 record.

24 A. My name is Dren, D-r-e-n; last name is C-a-k-a.

25 Q. Where were you born, Mr. Caka?

Page 8631

1 A. I was born in Kosovo, the city of Gjakove.

2 Q. And when were you born?

3 A. I was born December 6th, 1988.

4 Q. In 1999, early 1999, where were you living?

5 A. I was living in the street called Milosh Giliq, in the city of

6 Gjakove.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you recall --

8 MS. KRAVETZ: I apologise, Your Honours, I'm having some problems

9 with the transcript on my end. We're trying to set it up.

10 Q. Do you recall coming to The Hague three years ago and providing

11 testimony before this Tribunal in a case called Milutinovic et al. in

12 relation to events that took place in your town of Gjakove?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Over this past weekend, did you have the opportunity to read the

15 transcript of the testimony that you gave in that case?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly make pauses between

18 question and answer and answer and question. Thank you.

19 MS. KRAVETZ:

20 Q. Yes, I'm being reminded, Mr. Caka, that since we're going to be

21 speaking the same language in court today we need to pause between

22 question and answer to allow the interpreters and court reporters to do

23 their work.

24 And, sir, if today you were asked the same questions that you

25 were asked when you testified three years ago in the Milutinovic case,

Page 8632

1 would you provide the same answers?

2 A. Yes, I would.

3 Q. Thank you for that.

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender the transcript of

5 the previous testimony. This is 65 ter 05150.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01296.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: I wish to note also, Your Honours, that in our

9 92 ter motion for this witness we had listed three photographs that had

10 been marked by the witness during his previous testimony and a diagram

11 that had also been marked by the witness. I propose, instead of having

12 him mark the photographs again, to simply go through his markings and

13 have them explained to the Court during the course of my examination.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Caka, I would like to take you to events that took place

17 in -- on the night of 1st to 2nd April, 1999. Do you recall where you

18 were staying on the night of 1st April, 1999?

19 A. Yes, I was staying in Lulzim Vejsa's house, which is two houses

20 away from mine.

21 Q. And who were you with on that night?

22 A. I was with my mother and three of my sisters.

23 Q. And where exactly in Lulzim Vejsa's house were you staying?

24 A. We were staying in a basement underneath a pool hall. It's a

25 couple steps from the house, but it's detached from the house.

Page 8633

1 Q. And in addition to your mother and three sisters, was there

2 anyone else with you in the basement?

3 A. Yes, there was a total of 20 people; including me, 21.

4 Q. Now, just from what you remember, could you tell us who else was

5 in the basement in addition to your mother and three sisters and

6 yourself?

7 A. I do not remember everybody's name, but I remember my mom, three

8 sisters, Luli's wife and five of his kids, and then there was Behar --

9 Behar's family and a wife and two of his kids. There was Lulzim's wife's

10 mother and her sister were there too. And then there was Dushi, and

11 other people as well I just don't remember their names.

12 Q. Lulzim Vejsa, was that a relative of yours?

13 A. Yeah, it is a relative of ours, but some -- more of a long

14 relative. It's through my grandma on my dad's side.

15 Q. And you've referred to a person by the name of Behar. Do you

16 recall what his last name was?

17 A. I don't -- I think it's Haxhiavdija, but I'm not too sure.

18 Q. Thank you for that. Now, why were all these people in addition

19 to your family sleeping in the basement that night?

20 A. We were staying in the basement -- we were told that it was just

21 a safer place in case of any bombings. And it was also underground and

22 it was -- it just felt safe to us.

23 Q. And were there any men in this group of 21 people who were in the

24 basement?

25 A. I believe there was one.

Page 8634

1 Q. And approximately how old was that person?

2 A. An older -- I'm saying around 50s and 60s. I'm not too sure. I

3 was young, so I don't remember most of the things.

4 Q. And was your father with you that night?

5 A. No, he -- he was staying watch, but he wasn't there when the

6 incident happened. They told us that they wouldn't really harm women and

7 children, they were just looking for men, and that's what we believed.

8 They were staying guard. When then when they heard the police, they took

9 off and then there was just us.

10 Q. You said that "he was staying watch." Where exactly was he that

11 night?

12 A. He was right --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Speakers are kindly reminded not to overlap and

14 to pause between questions and answers. Thank you.

15 MS. KRAVETZ:

16 Q. I'm sorry, we're going a bit too fast for the interpreters. I'll

17 repeat my question. I was just asking where your father was that night.

18 A. My father was right by the pool hall where they took people --

19 like, my father, Lulzim, and Behar, they took turns on staying up and

20 watching. So some of them would sleep, some of them would stay up, so I

21 don't know where my father was exactly at the time. He could have been

22 sleeping or he could have been on watch. But the men weren't there when

23 we woke up and we were told to get out.

24 Q. Now, you said that you were woken up. Why were you woken up and

25 by whom?

Page 8635

1 A. I was woken up by my mother, saying that the police are here, get

2 up, and the rest of the people were waking up their kids. And matter of

3 five minutes after that the door opened and here were the police

4 officers.

5 Q. And what happened after the police officers arrived in the

6 basement?

7 A. They told us to get out. One of them spoke Albanian. He said,

8 You guys are with UCK, KLA; you guys are hiding the men. We told them,

9 We're just women and children. No, we're just trying to be safe.

10 Q. And did you have to leave the basement at that point?

11 A. Yes, we did. They walked us in a single-file line towards the

12 house. And when we got to the front of the house, one of Lulzim's

13 daughters was going to go ahead and open the door and the police officer

14 kind of shot it down and she, like, got scared and kind of ran off and

15 then we -- they started, like, telling us -- forcing us inside.

16 We went inside. And we took a right which is a room on the right

17 side of the house, right bottom side -- like, when you enter. And then

18 they sat us around and Flaka got up and tried to make tea. The guy

19 pushed her and started firing. Her mother ran out screaming and crying

20 and they started shooting her. And then after that there was Lulzim's

21 wife and daughter and then my mom -- and just started shooting everybody,

22 just started firing everywhere.

23 Q. Who was this person that was firing at everyone?

24 A. He was a police officer, and he was the one that came in and he,

25 like, walked us inside. One of them stood outside while this guy walked

Page 8636

1 us in, and then he just started firing.

2 Q. Did you recognise any one of these police officers who took you

3 out of the basement?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly reminded not to

5 overlap. And if the witness would kindly speak into the microphone.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. KRAVETZ:

8 Q. If you could please come a bit closer to the microphone.

9 A. I thought I recognised one of them, I could be wrong, but I'm

10 pretty sure he was covering his face. It's this police officer that

11 lived in our street, but I couldn't completely see his face to

12 identify -- know it was him, but I think it was.

13 Q. And did these policemen wear any sort of uniform?

14 A. They had blue camouflage uniform.

15 Q. And were they armed, apart from the person who was shooting, were

16 the others armed?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. Thank you. Now you've referred to a person by the name of Flaka.

19 Can you explain who she was?

20 A. Flaka is the first one -- She tried to get up and make tea.

21 She's the first one that they opened fire on.

22 Q. And do you know who she was, what her full name is?

23 A. I don't know her full name. It's Tringa's sister, Tringa's

24 sister, and I don't know what her last name is. It's Flaka, but I don't

25 know the last name.

Page 8637

1 Q. Who was she related to?

2 A. She was related to Tringa, which is Lulzim's wife.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that you thought you recognised one of

4 the police officers as someone who lived on your street. Had you seen

5 this person in police uniform -- similar uniform that you saw him that

6 night on other occasions, or was this the first time that you saw him

7 wearing that uniform that you've described?

8 A. I have seen him in a uniform lots of times before that.

9 Q. And when you say you have seen him in a uniform, had you seen him

10 wearing the same type of uniform you saw him wearing that night?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you some photographs, and we're

13 going to -- there are three different photographs and we're going to go

14 through them one by one.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could please have 05151 up on the screen

16 first.

17 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, Mr. Caka?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. We see that the photograph has markings. Are these markings that

20 you yourself made?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would like you to explain to the Judges what these markings

23 mean, and we'll start with the one at the left with the P, if you could

24 tell us what that stands for?

25 A. The P is -- stands for the pool hall, the basement we were

Page 8638

1 staying at.

2 Q. So in relation to the pool hall, the basement would have been

3 right underneath it, if I understand correctly?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And the H?

6 A. The H is the house that we were taken to after the basement.

7 Q. Is this where you've just described the shooting took place?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Now, what does the C stand for?

10 A. C is the house where -- it's the house I lived in, my house.

11 Q. And now we see a P-o-l to the right, what does that stand for?

12 A. It stands for the police officer that I believe I recognised.

13 Q. So that would have been where he lived at the time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: I seek to tender this exhibit as 05151.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01297.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could move to the next photograph,

20 it's 05152.

21 Q. Now we see this is the same photograph with the same markings and

22 there's an additional circle that's been marked underneath the H and a

23 little caret that's there. Are these markings that you made on this

24 photograph?

25 A. Yes, they are.

Page 8639

1 Q. And can you explain what the circle under the large H stands for?

2 A. The circle under the H is Behar's car which we had parked right

3 against the door for the door to be shut so it would be harder to open.

4 Q. And so it was parked on the inside of the house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you notice anything unusual about the car when you went

7 from the basement to the house that's marked H?

8 A. The car was caught on fire, and it was pushed a little bit.

9 Q. And we see underneath that there's a small marking underneath the

10 circle, what does that marking represent?

11 A. That's where the door is.

12 Q. That's the entrance to the house?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. And that's the entrance that you were saying the car was

15 blocking?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. KRAVETZ: I seek to tender this photograph as 05152.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01298.

21 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could now have 05153 up on the screen.

22 Q. While that is coming up, were you injured in the shooting,

23 Mr. Caka?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. Where were you injured?

Page 8640

1 A. My right arm.

2 Q. And once the shooting stopped, what happened? What did you do

3 once the shooting stopped in the house?

4 A. I final decided I should get out of there because there was lots

5 of smoke, the house was on fire. So I -- I exited the room, took off my

6 jacket, and laid down in the hallway for about a couple minutes,

7 pretended to be dead there, also just in case they would come back. And

8 then from there I went to Lulzim Vejsa's bedroom. When I went there, the

9 windows were open and I could finally get some actual air. And I stayed

10 there for about -- a good 10, 15 minutes. I'm not too sure.

11 I jumped out of the window, went to the side of the house, and

12 there was this door there. And I looked to the side of the house and I

13 looked there and I saw these three police officers they were smoking and

14 I figured if I went that way it would be a possibility that they would

15 see me and start shooting. So I took steps back and this was a pool hall

16 so there was alcohol served there and they had beer cases, which the

17 cases there were plastic, and I stacked them up and I jumped over a wall

18 going through Dushi's house and then going through to the back which we

19 had made holes in the hall so you wouldn't have to go to my house

20 through, like, the normal street.

21 So I went through there until I got to my house. And once I got

22 to my house, my aunt heard a noise and saw me for a quick second and she,

23 like, took off. And then I was calling for help and then she came back.

24 She's like, Oh, it's you. What happened? I told her everybody's dead.

25 She told me, she's like, Stop it, you've only had a bad dream. I said,

Page 8641

1 No, I really don't think so.

2 Then we went to my house, we entered through the back, which --

3 like the back room. And when we went there she walked ahead of me and I

4 kind of fainted. And then she came back and said, What's wrong with you?

5 I'm fainting, I'm losing a lot of blood. What don't you get? She said,

6 It's probably just the sleeping pills. And I said, No it's not. And

7 from there they took us, like, through this hallway in my house and they

8 took us close to the bathroom. My grandfather said, What happened? I

9 told them everybody's dead. I didn't know what to say. He's like, No

10 it's not. And I'm like, Well take a look at my arm.

11 They lit a candle and then they looked at -- I was soaking in

12 blood. And they cut my shirt -- my grandfather cut my shirt with a knife

13 and tied my arm and wrapped it somewhat a little bit just till the next

14 morning. And we stayed in my uncle's room in the back of the house until

15 the next morning.

16 Q. May I stop you there, Mr. Caka. We have another photograph up on

17 the screen. We see it has some markings. Did you make those markings?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We see a line that leaves from the house and then it goes towards

20 the right to another house that you had marked in an earlier photo. Can

21 you tell us what that line represents?

22 A. The whole thing here it's me trying to make my way to my house,

23 and through there it's like a pathway. Then there was holes made where

24 there was firewood in this room that they had. There was holes made

25 behind that, it was kind of hidden. And then the C is where I ran into

Page 8642

1 my aunt. And then the other one right above it, like the C right beside

2 it, there's a little thing, that's where my aunt was. And the one up top

3 is the room that I actually fainted in when she walked in front of me.

4 Q. So the two markings to the right of the C, if I understood

5 correctly, the first one is where your aunt was. And the one above it to

6 the right is where you fainted?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now we also see that there's three dots close to the location

9 that you had marked as the pool hall. What do those three dots

10 represent?

11 A. Those three dots represent the three police officers having a

12 cigarette while I was trying to get away.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. KRAVETZ: I seek to tender this photograph, Your Honours. It

15 is 65 ter 05153.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P01299.

18 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could have 02279 up on the screen. No,

19 that's the wrong document. It's 65 ter 02279. Thank you.

20 Q. We see this is a document called:

21 "Floor Plan of Main Residence of Milosh Giliq Street 157." Do

22 you recognise this document?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. We see that the document has a number of markings. Are these

25 markings that you made to the document?

Page 8643

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. I want to go through these markings one by one and just ask you

3 to explain to the Judges what they represent. If we can start at the

4 bottom where we have an a and a B, if you could tell us what that stands

5 for.

6 A. The a and the B are standing for the two police officers that

7 were on the deck before entering the house.

8 Q. Now, we see that there's a line going from B to a circle that's

9 at the entrance of one of the rooms. What does that represent?

10 A. This is the police officer that took us inside the house and --

11 took us inside. And then that's where he was standing when he did all

12 the shooting.

13 Q. And number 1, what does that stand for?

14 A. Number 1, that's Flaka. She's getting up to make tea and he

15 pushed her and started firing.

16 Q. And numbers 2 and 3?

17 A. Number 3, it's her mother running behind the door; and after that

18 she got shot. And then number 2, that's Lulzim Vejsa's wife and

19 daughter.

20 Q. And what about 4 and 5 which are in the corner?

21 A. Four and 5, that's -- that's my sister and Lulzim Vejsa's son.

22 Q. And 6 and 7 in the other corner?

23 A. My mother and my baby sister.

24 Q. Did your baby sister also get shot?

25 A. No, she didn't. My mother was changing her diaper and she got

Page 8644

1 shot in the back and she fell on top of my baby sister.

2 Q. And did -- was there anything that happened that made you think

3 that she was still alive when you left the house? I'm talking about your

4 baby sister.

5 A. I knew that she was alive because I heard her crying, and I tried

6 to save her, and I couldn't.

7 Q. And why is that?

8 A. My mother was a heavier woman, and I was small kid to begin with,

9 and my good arm was -- it was pretty much useless. And I tried and tried

10 and then it got so smokey at a point that if I would have tried any

11 longer I would have been gone with them too.

12 Q. Now, you've mentioned twice that there was smoke in the house.

13 Do you know how our why there was smoke, how a fire got started?

14 A. When we entered, the police officer, the letter P started

15 shooting close to the TV -- there was a cabinet there, a closet with

16 clothes, and he shot at it and it just caught on fire.

17 Q. Okay. Now we see there -- what appears to be a hallway, two

18 number 9s or an 8 and a 9. What does that represent?

19 A. That's Behar's wife and son.

20 Q. And the number 10?

21 A. Number 10 is Lulzim's mother.

22 Q. We see that there's a line going from the room -- from one of the

23 rooms where there are several people, seven of them, and it goes all the

24 way to the back. What does that line represent?

25 A. Right by the hallway here?

Page 8645

1 Q. Yes, the line that goes --

2 A. That's where I laid down a little bit for a couple of minutes

3 when -- after I took off my jacket.

4 Q. And then that same line goes into a next bedroom and then there's

5 an X. What does that represent?

6 A. That represents me in Lulzim Vejsa's house laying down and

7 staying there for 10, 15 minutes to get some air in my system.

8 Q. And then we see that that line goes out -- out of the house, and

9 then there are some circles at the top of the plan, what are those?

10 A. Those are the beer cases.

11 Q. So is that line -- does that line show the route that you took as

12 you were leaving?

13 A. Yes, I left and I went to the corner of the house and I looked

14 around the corner and I saw that the three police officers. And then I

15 came back, I stacked the beer cases where that one circle above it is,

16 and I jumped the wall and escaped from there and went home.

17 Q. And there's three circles to the left of the house. What does

18 that represent?

19 A. The police officers.

20 Q. Now we see that here on the plan you've indicated ten people and

21 you had told us earlier that in total with yourself you were -- there

22 were 21. What happened to the other ten people that were in the house?

23 A. Well, there was more people in the room. Like, I was behind

24 Dushi, myself, and she was a large woman. So that's the only way I

25 survived is because most of the shots that were fired they hit her before

Page 8646

1 they hit me. And it was smokey. I couldn't really see -- by the time

2 when they started firing, I was trying to hide so I wouldn't get shot as

3 well, but one of them caught me.

4 Q. Was there only one shot fired in our direction or were there

5 additional shots fired?

6 A. There was a lot of shots fired towards me, it's just that one of

7 them caught.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender this exhibit. It's

10 02279.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01300.

13 MS. KRAVETZ: I would like to now hand a hard copy of

14 Exhibit 02254 to the witness.

15 Q. And, Mr. Caka, this is a collection of uniforms. I would just

16 like you to look through that and see if you find any type of uniforms

17 that resemble the ones that you saw on the night that we have been

18 speaking about that the men that you've described as policemen were

19 wearing.

20 A. Photo number 13 and 14, it's roughly around there. It was so

21 long ago, but it was dark blue around the same colour -- I would say more

22 of the photo number 13.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: That, I believe, is on page 8 of the e-court, and

24 it's page 7 of the hard copy.

25 Q. And if you can just finish looking through that if you see

Page 8647

1 anything else.

2 A. And I believe it's either photo 9 or photo 11 for the upper body.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. KRAVETZ: That's on page 7 of e-court, and it's page 6 of the

5 hard copies, photo 11; photo 9 is on page 6 of the e-court and 5 of the

6 hard copy.

7 Q. Thank you. You can close that now unless you want to look some

8 more and see if there's anything else. Thank you.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: I seek to tender this exhibit, Your Honours, 02254.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01301.

12 MS. KRAVETZ:

13 Q. Now, Mr. Caka, you have already told us that you spent the night

14 with your aunt. The following morning, did you receive any medical

15 assistance for the injury that you had sustained in your arm?

16 A. Early that morning we got up, my grandfather and my aunt they put

17 me on my grandfather's bicycle and they wrapped a blanket around me. And

18 they were -- we were on our way to the hospital. Before we left, my dad

19 came and then he's like, Go with them and then we're going to go to

20 Albania and I'll meet you there. I'm like, How are you getting there?

21 He said, Well I'm going to be on foot. And I'm like, Am I ever going to

22 see you? He said, Yeah you will.

23 He came and gave me a kiss and then we were on our way to the

24 hospital. On our way to the hospital we ran into a couple police

25 officers and they asked my grandfather, Where are you going? And he's

Page 8648

1 like, To the hospital. They're like, Oh, why? What happened? He said,

2 Oh he just hurt himself playing. And then they were going to see, and he

3 said, Come on, he's just a kid, we've really got to get to the hospital.

4 They were talking to some other people. So they were like, Okay.

5 They just told us, Okay. Just go ahead. Just keep going. Then we went

6 to the hospital. When we got there, there was this Serbian soldier in --

7 like, like -- not police uniform, like a soldier uniform, the green

8 uniform. And like, he can already see my arm and he's like, What

9 happened? There's no way that we could have lied to him. I -- my

10 grandfather told him, and he's like, I can't believe they would do such a

11 thing. And he actually got me help right away.

12 Q. And after receiving medical assistance at the hospital, what did

13 you do? Did you return to your aunt's house?

14 A. We went to my other aunt's house. It's not the same aunt that

15 helped me. We went to another aunt's house, and we stayed there for a

16 couple days until one night we thought the police had came there. And

17 then we heard some noise at night and we escaped through the back of the

18 house. And there was a steep hill to another house, and we were going

19 down and my aunt, she broke her leg that night. And then we decided in

20 the morning we should really just get out of there.

21 Q. So did you and your family members leave Djakovica town?

22 A. We left early that morning, yes.

23 Q. And how did you leave?

24 A. Me, my aunt, her husband and daughter, we left in my aunt's

25 husband's car. My grandmother, grandpa, uncle, and aunt, they -- they

Page 8649

1 went by trucks which took people across -- just elder people that

2 couldn't walk, they just took them. And then we were going like the

3 same -- we saw each other on our way like to Kukes, which is Albania, we

4 saw each other here and there. And it took us roughly three or four days

5 to get across the border.

6 Q. So it took you four days from Djakovica town to get to the border

7 at Kukes?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And before reaching the Albanian border when you were still in --

10 driving in the car with your relatives, were you stopped at any point or

11 were you allowed to just cross the border freely?

12 A. Well, there was an incident that happened before we went to the

13 border, a police officer in the middle of the night was checking cars and

14 he saw my arm was wrapped up and he had asked my aunt's husband what

15 happened. And he's like, Oh, he just hurt himself playing. And the guy

16 asked to unwrap my arm. And he's like, Come on, he's just a kid, he's

17 sleeping, just leave him alone. And nothing -- like, I didn't get woken

18 up, so I guess everything had went okay.

19 We got to the border, which they took everybody's licence plates

20 and information, like, their passports or any identification that they

21 had of Kosovo. As soon as -- like, at the border so that no cars could

22 come back or anything. They just took the information, the registration

23 papers, the licence plate, and everything.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: I would now like to play a very short video-clip.

Page 8650

1 This is 02278, if we could have that played.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 MS. KRAVETZ: If we could stop that. I'm not getting any

4 interpretation. I don't know if anyone else is.

5 JUDGE PARKER: No.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that they don't have any

7 transcript of the video-clip.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And it's all too fast.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: The transcript was provided earlier this -- last

10 week, I believe, Friday.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, something's gone wrong in the system,

12 Ms. Kravetz. I don't think we can fix it right now.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MS. KRAVETZ: I just ask for Your Honour's indulgence. Just one

15 moment.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 THE INTERPRETER: We have a copy now.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: Oh, thank you, I see the copy has been provided.

20 If we could start that again, thank you.

21 And my apologies, Your Honour.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 "Go upstairs on the house.

24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "When we went into the house, the

25 daughter of Lulzim Vejsa was chased by them with an automatic rifle, but

Page 8651

1 they did not harm her. They only shot at the furniture and the house

2 started burning.

3 "Yes, yes, then what happened, how did they kill them?

4 "Then we were made to sit on the couches.

5 "Then they made us sit on the couches.

6 "They killed their grandfather ..."

7 MS. KRAVETZ: I believe we're having a technical problem playing

8 this video.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I'm being informed by Ms. Pedersen

11 that there was a problem with Sanction this morning here in the courtroom

12 and it hasn't been solved yet. I wonder if the Registrar could play it

13 from her computer, otherwise I'll move on from this.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We will see.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: It's repeating the first part that we already

17 read.

18 [Voiceover] "They killed the father as well -- no, not the

19 father, the grandfather, Flaka's grandfather was killed and her aunt

20 Muni.

21 "Yes, Muni.

22 "No, Muni is alive.

23 "Really?

24 "Yes, he's alive.

25 "How old was Flaka, Flaka Hoxha?

Page 8652

1 "Did you see them killing Flaka, did they shoot her with an

2 automatic rifle?

3 "Yes, with a machine-gun.

4 "Yes, with a machine-gun. They shot her. He saw that. He saw

5 everything.

6 "Did they shoot them in their back?

7 "Yes, they shot them in their head.

8 "How did you escape?

9 "Those policemen were standing on the kitchen door. I walked

10 away. I was lying down, pretending to be dead, and when they left I went

11 into the room. I almost choked from the smoke.

12 "He was near the door.

13 "He lies down on the ground like dead.

14 "By quiet, Dreni, sweetheart, you'll have a sleep soon. Just

15 like that girl.

16 "And they were moved from the door. He ran in another room which

17 was burning.

18 "How long did you stay there in that room?

19 "I think about half an hour.

20 "And then they left the room.

21 "Don't be afraid darling, don't be afraid.

22 "And then he went there. He waited on the -- on that smoke.

23 "He won't do anything wrong to you.

24 "No, I'm afraid. I'm afraid they will hurt me.

25 "No, they will operate.

Page 8653

1 "I'm afraid they will operate on me.

2 "No they are not going to operate on you. Where did you hear of

3 a person having a surgery in a tent, Dreni?

4 "Don't do anything to me with those scissors.

5 "They will only cut the bandage."

6 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I see Mr. Djurdjic on his feet.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, we've waited for this to finish.

8 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Unfortunately, the video does not tally with the audio. It seems that

11 the interpreter is simply reading a text which was translated before. I

12 hope she -- I wish she had interpreted from what she could hear on the

13 video. We only see the one person, which is the witness, and after he

14 utters something then we have interpretation for only half a minute or

15 so. After that it becomes too confusing and one cannot follow.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, we have the transcript of the video,

17 and I agree with Mr. Djurdjic that the interpretation was not complete

18 because they were only interpreting the Albanian portions and we couldn't

19 hear the English portions. So I will just ask the witness some questions

20 about this video, and we'll tender it with the transcript so the full

21 text is available to the Court.

22 JUDGE PARKER: We will take that in stages, Ms. Kravetz. By all

23 means, ask the witness about it --

24 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We will assess as it goes, Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 8654

1 MS. KRAVETZ:

2 Q. Mr. Caka, did you recognise yourself in that video?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Do you know where you were when that was filmed?

5 A. I was in a town called Kukes in Albania, and I was in tents they

6 set up, medical tents, for medical treatment and that's where I was at.

7 Q. And do you remember when approximately this was filmed? I mean

8 how much time after you had crossed over with your family into Albania?

9 A. This was an -- this was filmed and everything happened within a

10 matter of half an hour after I had crossed the border.

11 Q. So this was filmed immediately after you had crossed the border?

12 A. [No verbal response]

13 Q. Who is the person that we see next to you? We see a woman

14 speaking to you.

15 A. That is my aunt, the woman that I had seen at the house where I

16 had escaped.

17 Q. The person -- your aunt that you referred to earlier who had

18 assisted you after the assistant, the shooting incident, is that the same

19 aunt?

20 A. The same aunt -- not the one that we went to her house to stay

21 before Albania, it's the aunt that -- the night happened on April 1st

22 and 2nd, the one that said that I had had a bad dream.

23 Q. Okay. And do you know who is filming this?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you.

Page 8655

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender this video and the

2 corresponding transcript. The video is 02278, and the transcript is

3 02277.

4 JUDGE PARKER: The problem at the moment is that it is not

5 possible for the Chamber, nor it would appear Mr. Djurdjic, to understand

6 what is being said. You're going to have to give this more attention,

7 Ms. Kravetz, and perhaps come up with a complete transcript of what is

8 English and Albanian translated into English and discuss that with

9 Mr. Djurdjic. He may be able to agree it. If he can't, at some other

10 later time we will have to attempt to have that played again and see

11 whether we can accept the full transcript --

12 MS. KRAVETZ: The transcript that I'm seeking to tender is the

13 full transcript, and it's --

14 JUDGE PARKER: But the problem is we can't understand or verify

15 it. Nor can the witness at the moment. The interpreters have attempted

16 to interpret as it's gone on. You say there was also English language

17 being said. I head one or two words in English, but clearly there was

18 much more. There are a number of people speaking, and it's not clear who

19 they are. And there's part of the video which is not to do with this

20 witness at all.

21 So those matters will need to be attended to and then discussed

22 with Mr. Djurdjic, and then if there is not agreement you can raise the

23 matter with us with a view to some further exploration of what can be

24 done and whether or not the video will be received.

25 Mr. Djurdjic, have you followed that, that the Chamber's not

Page 8656

1 happy at the moment to receive the exhibit. It will mark the video for

2 identification, and we've asked Ms. Kravetz to explore some improvement

3 and clarification of the transcript that goes with it. And she will then

4 discuss that with you.

5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we agree that this

6 video should be admitted into evidence once we have completed our

7 discussions. All the matters you raised are also issues of the Defence,

8 and I believe after the translation service has done its part then I will

9 believe there will be no problems left with this video. I can tell you

10 out front that under such conditions we are ready to have that admitted.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.

12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly reminded to speak into

14 the microphone.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We will receive --

16 [B/C/S on English channel]

17 JUDGE PARKER: -- the video with -- as marked for identification,

18 and with it the transcript.

19 Could I indicate I am on the English channel now receiving a

20 translation in another language.

21 MS. KRAVETZ: Me too, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Something has been switched the wrong way. We've

23 confused everybody with what's gone on here, Ms. Kravetz.

24 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We will have those marked for identification and

Page 8657

1 then we would leave the question of receiving the video and the

2 transcript until you have been able to look at the difficulties, deal

3 with them as best you can, and discuss it with Mr. Djurdjic.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video and the transcript will

5 be Exhibit P01302 marked for identification.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour. We apologise for the

7 technical difficulties we're having this afternoon. What we propose to

8 do is request that the witness be -- that the video be subtitled, so that

9 way it's going to be easier to view it and also understand what is being

10 said.

11 JUDGE PARKER: That could well be very helpful.

12 Could I suggest that you might explore briefly with the witness

13 whether, apart from his aunt, there were any other members of his family

14 shown in the video.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour, I can certainly do that.

16 Q. Mr. Caka, in the video that we just played in court, were

17 there -- did we see any other members of your family there?

18 A. You can kind of see a little bit, but you can't really tell, but

19 you can hear my family -- two of my family members speak.

20 Q. And who is the person who's speaking English who's interpreting

21 what you're saying? Do you know who that is?

22 A. He's -- that's the medic, the person that ran out to me and

23 carried me in his arms and rushed to get me help.

24 Q. And who are these other two persons from your family that you can

25 hear in the background?

Page 8658

1 A. My aunt and my other aunt's husband [Realtime transcript read in

2 error "ex-husband"].

3 Q. That's the same man that we saw also in the video briefly that

4 you were speaking about earlier or is this another aunt?

5 A. The husband -- the aunt is the one who helped me from house --

6 the one that we stayed in her house afterwards. The one that we stayed

7 in the house, that's her husband and my other aunt.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think line 24 it should be "my aunt and --

10 MS. KRAVETZ: Her husband.

11 JUDGE PARKER: -- the other aunt's husband."

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, that's correct.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Rather than her ex-husband.

14 MS. KRAVETZ: That is correct, Your Honour.

15 Q. And just a last question, Mr. Caka. What sort of treatment did

16 you have to undergo do to the injury that you sustained in your arm?

17 What sort of medical treatment were you given for the injury to your arm?

18 A. At the time?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. At the time they just rewrapped it better -- I mean, they put me

21 to sleep, like, as soon as I was in his arms in that video. As soon as

22 that was done, I was pretty much asleep and I don't remember it from

23 there. They kept me sleeping for a long time.

24 Q. And did you have any operation on your arm or any sort of

25 treatment was given to you, medical treatment, because of the gun-shot

Page 8659

1 wound that you had received?

2 A. As far as I remember, no. And after -- they just rewrapped --

3 and after I don't remember because I was completely asleep. I remember I

4 woke up, then we got rushed to the helicopter. And me and my aunt, the

5 one that had helped me from the house from the beginning, she came in the

6 helicopter with me and we flew out to Tirana, which we went to an actual

7 hospital.

8 Q. And for how long did you stay at that hospital, if you remember?

9 A. A couple months, I believe.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, at this stage I have no further

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

14 Mr. Djurdjic.

15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Caka, my name is Veljko Djurdjic and I'm a

18 member of the Defence team for the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic. And

19 with me today is a member of the team, Ms. Marie O'Leary. Before I put

20 any questions to you, I would like to extend my sympathy, deepest

21 sympathy, because of your loss of your mother and sisters. And I would

22 like to tell you that both Mr. Djordjevic and I condemn such actions and

23 we join you in your pain. And I would just like to put perhaps a few

24 questions to you today so that you can help us to identify the person who

25 actually committed this act.

Page 8660

1 First of all, you said that this person lived two houses from

2 yours, two houses away from yours on the same street; correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Having in mind your age, you must be aware, you must know who

5 these persons are, I mean what their last name is, the persons who lived

6 not far from your home?

7 A. I do not remember. I just remember, I -- I was somewhat friends

8 with the son at the time, and the son's name was Nemanjo [phoen]. That's

9 the only thing I, pretty much, can remember.

10 Q. Thank you. I think that in one of your statements you said that

11 he was a young man, that he was about 20 years old; is that correct?

12 A. The police officer?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Oh, he -- it was his son, the one I was playing with. So, that

15 is wrong. He had a son, and he couldn't have been 20 years old.

16 Q. Very well. Now could you tell me what the profession of this

17 policeman was before the war? What was -- do you know what he did?

18 A. I just know that he was a police officer.

19 Q. Mr. Caka, two years ago you testified here at this Tribunal and

20 you also provided a written statement. Now, is your memory or

21 recollection better today than it was then or was it better then?

22 A. Well, what I remember, he was a police officer. And what people

23 have said, which is what I remember, is him as a police officer. But

24 people had said that he is one of the leaders of the police officers.

25 But that's what other people have said. Me, I just knew him as a police

Page 8661

1 officer.

2 Q. Thank you. This was a general question. I meant in reference to

3 your entire statement and your testimony in the Milutinovic case. So I

4 would ask you if, in view of the fact that you didn't have any changes to

5 make to your -- either to your statement or to your testimony, and that

6 is the reason why I'm asking you whether your recollection is better now

7 or then at that time, the time when you made that statement and

8 testified?

9 A. Well --

10 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I believe the witness has already

11 answered that question.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Please carry on, Mr. Djurdjic.

13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, if only I can get an answer

14 to my question from the witness.

15 THE WITNESS: Well, that's what I remember, and that's all I have

16 to say.

17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Caka, please listen carefully to what I'm asking you. You

19 testified or you made a statement in the Milutinovic case, and this

20 transcript from the Milutinovic testimony was -- that was adopted into

21 evidence today and that was what Ms. Kravetz asked you about. And you

22 said that you had read that transcript and you didn't have any changes to

23 make to it. Now you have read it and no changes made; is that correct?

24 A. Correct, but when I did -- if I had said that the police officer

25 was a leader, is -- I'm referring to what people have told me. But as a

Page 8662

1 kid, I remember him as a police officer.

2 Q. Thank you. I've already mentioned -- please, we are moving on to

3 a new question. I'm asking you now about the transcript of your

4 testimonies.

5 Now I would like to ask you this: If there are any discrepancies

6 or any differences between what you said today and what you said during

7 the Milutinovic testimony, would you say that your recollection was

8 better while you were testifying in the Milutinovic case three years ago?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the way really to go about this is

10 first of all to show to the witness any passages you believe are

11 materially different so that he can identify what it is you're saying has

12 changed. If he then has no particular comment about that, you may want

13 to ask him about his memory. But it's really, I think, A, asking him

14 something that's unlikely to produce a satisfactory answer; and B, it's

15 something that's unlikely to help us for you just to put it to him,

16 without first having identified what you say is different about the

17 statement, the transcript, and the evidence today.

18 Would you like to think about that over the break, Mr. Djurdjic?

19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. If

20 we can have that break now, and I will prepare those couple of questions

21 that I have left and then we can wrap up.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Caka, we've run to the end of our recording

23 tape and have to have a break. A Court Officer will assist you during

24 the break, and we will resume again at 4.00. And we should be then in a

25 position to deal more quickly and clearly with the point that

Page 8663

1 Mr. Djurdjic is now making. So we will see you again at about 4.00.

2 THE WITNESS: Okay.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in,

7 I should indicate that we have no objection to the admission of D316 MFI

8 which is an exhibit my learned colleague referred to at the start of

9 today's session.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, that's very good. We can receive as an

11 exhibit the document D316 that was marked for identification.

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Could I please have Exhibit 5150, that is the transcript from the

16 Milutinovic case. And if we could see page 2656 -- or rather, could we

17 see 2654 first.

18 Q. Mr. Caka, would you please read lines 16 through 25 and then

19 going on to the next page, 26 -- 2565, the first three lines.

20 A. From 16 to what again, sorry?

21 Q. Through 25, the end of the page.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Mr. Caka, would you agree with me that you make no mention here

24 of your IDs being taken away from you on the border with Albania?

25 A. I did make of it. I've done a lot of interviews, and I did say

Page 8664

1 that that they took my -- not my ID but they took his licence plate and,

2 like, registration paper and his ID. Because I didn't have any papers of

3 my own when I went across.

4 Q. Thank you. But there is no mention here of any documents, any

5 registration plates, or anything similar.

6 A. I don't know, but I simply remember them taking the licence plate

7 and registration papers and his information.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 2656 on the

10 screens, please.

11 Q. Lines 15 through 25, would you please read them.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. Mr. Caka, you crossed the border in a car and it says here that

14 you remained at the border ten minutes.

15 A. Yes. We were in the border for about roughly ten minutes when

16 they were taking his information away. And as soon as I had crossed the

17 border, I was out of the car and a gentleman ran out to me and carried me

18 and got me help.

19 Q. Thank you. Just another question, Mr. Caka. Listening to what

20 we heard from you here and also reading the transcript, the people who

21 put these questions to you, men or women, they mention the facts of what

22 had happened at the house that night, and that's how they proceeded

23 putting questions to you. How did they know what happened there?

24 A. I do not know. I believe that my aunt and my other aunt's

25 husband had told them -- because all I can remember is somebody carrying

Page 8665

1 me, rushing to the tents, and that's where they got me help. And the

2 gentleman there started talking to me. I don't even quite well remember

3 the conversation that we had, but now -- like, it refreshes my memory

4 seeing it. And after the whole conversation -- after the video you just

5 had seen, I was put to sleep, and I don't remember anything from there.

6 Q. That's clear. What I am not clear on is: How is it that some of

7 the facts that only you knew of, how did these other individuals know

8 about these facts, the individuals that we hear speaking here on the

9 video? The reason I'm asking you is that you will not be present at the

10 time when we're actually going to hear the audio-tape.

11 So let's take this step by step. What was the name of your aunt,

12 the aunt that was there in the video with you?

13 A. Nimete.

14 Q. And her last name?

15 A. Babalija.

16 Q. Thank you. If I'm not mistaken, you said there was another

17 relative there next to you. What was his name, his first and last name,

18 please.

19 A. First name Selajdin, last name Dulhosi [phoen].

20 Q. Could you tell me, were they in the car with you when you crossed

21 the border?

22 A. Just Selajdin was in the car. The other aunt was in the trucks

23 that had driven people to the border.

24 Q. And the young man that we see on the video, is that a person from

25 the hospital or someone who had actually taken you to hospital? There

Page 8666

1 was a dark-haired young man next to you.

2 A. The young man you're speaking of, he's an Albanian from Kosovo.

3 He's -- he went there just to help people out. He kind of did it as a

4 volunteer, didn't want anything from it. He just wanted to help wounded

5 people. And he was the one -- I've never seen him before. He was the

6 one that treated me. And he spoke English, so he asked me questions.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see

9 Exhibit D002-5109.

10 Q. Mr. Caka, could you please mark the pattern that you saw on the

11 uniform that this policeman was wearing?

12 A. It was between this one and this one, but more this one.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, if you could see that, were these

14 people wearing uniforms of the same pattern and same colour or did they

15 wear different pieces of different uniforms combined?

16 A. It was the same uniform, as I can remember.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tender this into

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The markings made by the witness are red but very

21 small and they're somewhere near the centre of two of the patterns, the

22 one at the right-hand top and the one on the right-hand edge immediately

23 below the top. The second one has two dots. This exhibit will be

24 received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00360.

Page 8667

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, and I believe it -- just for the sake

2 of clarification of the transcript, at line 37 -- page 37, line 4, the

3 witness indicated "but more this one" and then he made a second dot,

4 marking, at the second photograph to the right.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Just one more question, Mr. Caka. What does AK-47 stand for?

8 A. A machine-gun.

9 Q. How come you know that?

10 A. Because I'm not a kid and I'm -- anymore, and I've seen a lot of

11 movies, and I know what it's called.

12 Q. Did you watch those movies in 1999 perhaps? And since when do

13 you know that the AK-47 is a weapon? I can explain. I found this in

14 your 1999 and 2000 statement, that's why I'm asking you about this. You

15 now say it's an automatic rifle, but in the statement it literally says

16 "AK-47." That's why I'm curious about it.

17 A. If you go back to my video, I believe I'm saying "machine-gun,"

18 which I did not know at the time as an AK-47. But I had described to

19 people what it looked like and they had gone -- like, they went from

20 there.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Caka. I have no further questions.

22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

24 Ms. Kravetz.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: I just want to clarify two matters.