Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8770

 1                           Wednesday, 2 September 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Please sit down.

 7             I'd remind you that the affirmation you made to tell the truth

 8     still applies.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  And Mr. Djurdjic is continuing.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           WITNESS:  MICHAEL PHILLIPS [Resumed]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir, Colonel.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday we were working with

16     Exhibit P835, so could we please have it on the screens.

17             Could we have item 5 of the English version, or rather, Roman I,

18     subparagraph 5, that's on the first page.

19        Q.   Colonel, please take a look at subparagraph 5 of this agreement.

20     Tell us, were you aware of this provision when you arrived at your post?

21        A.   I was, yes.

22        Q.   You will agree with me then that until the KVM was established,

23     KDOM was supposed to act in place of the verification mission, and then

24     the verification mission would take it over once it was up and running;

25     correct?

Page 8771

 1        A.   What I knew about KDOM and its activities was that I was informed

 2     that we would at some point absorb the KDOM into KVM, and that was as to

 3     the extent of my knowledge with regard to what KDOM's purpose was.  I

 4     didn't what they did in the field.  I didn't know who all their team was,

 5     how many they were.

 6        Q.   That wasn't really what my question was aiming at.  All I was

 7     asking was that this transition period, so before the KVM was

 8     established, the KDOM was supposed to act in their place according to

 9     this agreement, and as we know this agreement was signed on the

10     16th of October, 1998.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have

12     Roman numeral II, that's the next page of the English version.

13        Q.   Please take a look at subparagraph 1 of Roman II, Colonel.

14        A.   Okay.

15        Q.   Colonel, this subparagraph 1 stipulates that your basic task is

16     to actually verify whether there's compliance with Resolution 1199, but

17     this last sentence, "these reports will also be provided to the

18     authorities of the FRY," could you tell me please how did you go about

19     this relating to this particular aspect?

20        A.   I do not recall how those reports found their way to the

21     Government of the FRY, I just don't recall how that happened.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have occasion to see a single report that was

23     sent by KVM to the FRY in the period while you were in Kosovo in the

24     course of 1998 and 1999, and have you had occasion to see it in -- during

25     any of the proceedings where you testified here before this Court?

Page 8772

 1        A.   I just don't recall.  I don't remember.

 2        Q.   Would you agree with me that KVM then did not comply with its

 3     obligation arising from this subparagraph 1 of item 2 and did not provide

 4     reports to the authorities of the FRY?

 5        A.   I can't answer that or agree with you on that because I don't

 6     know if the mission provided those reports, either some, all, or sporadic

 7     reports to the government.  I just don't know.

 8        Q.   Do you remember whether you reported to OSCE and the

 9     Security Council, in other words, the Permanent Council of the OSCE and

10     the Security Council?

11        A.   I am aware of that, we did report noncompliance issues to the

12     Permanent Council, yes.

13        Q.   Who did?

14        A.   Ambassador Walker typically would do that when he would address

15     the Permanent Council periodically verbally, and then there were also

16     reports that were sent down, I believe they went to Mr. Krasnai in the

17     Permanent Council of the OSCE in Vienna.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please scroll up the

20     English version to see item 3 of this agreement.

21        Q.   Would you agree with me, Colonel, that this item, Roman III,

22     provides for the special mandates for the KVM, and under 1 we see that

23     there should be verifications whether cease-fire is being complied with.

24     That is its main function.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll down the English

Page 8773

 1     version so we can see the subparagraph 1 of Roman III.  From what I can

 2     see on the screens right now, the Colonel cannot really see the entire

 3     subparagraph.

 4             Yes, so this is where it starts and now, please, let's have the

 5     next page.

 6        Q.   Would you agree with me that this is a special mandate, a

 7     verification whether there's compliance with cease-fire agreements?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   Please now take a look at subparagraph 2.  Am I correct, Colonel,

10     that the FRY had the obligation to inform on the movement of its forces

11     in the course of the previous week to inform these KVM headquarters?

12        A.   That was our understanding.  That was the intent, yes.

13        Q.   In other words, this relates to the preceding week, and it is

14     supposed to inform on the movements and where they were.  Did you receive

15     these reports on the preceding week movements?

16        A.   Not always, no, sir.

17        Q.   Did you seek information from the Vienna Secretariat?  Did they

18     receive reports from the FRY authorities relating to the compliance with

19     the agreement which were sent to the Vienna Secretariat?

20        A.   I can't speak or have knowledge of what the Secretariat in Vienna

21     received or didn't receive.  I don't have any insight on that.

22        Q.   Are you aware that the KVM headquarters received daily reports

23     from the MUP -- from the Pristina MUP staff on all events from the

24     previous day?

25        A.   I'm aware that KVM headquarters received some reports.  Those

Page 8774

 1     reports were not always accurate.  For example, can I -- may I elaborate

 2     a bit on that, Your Honour?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 4             THE WITNESS:  We would get information that there would be a MUP

 5     movement at 9.00, and in fact the movement took place at 6.30.  So the

 6     timing and the coordination was not always accurate, and we had a

 7     terrible time linking our KVM up with the MUP.  And the MUP would always

 8     give us a reason why they had to depart earlier or later, but it

 9     prohibited us from either accompanying them or following them and

10     sometimes we would arrive in the village even after the fact and they'd

11     already departed.  So the reporting that you refer to here was not always

12     accurate, and I could also tell you that it was not a regular occurrence,

13     it didn't happen as a matter of routine.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Well, first of all, Colonel, you're talking about daily reports

16     or daily reporting that is not really stipulated by this agreement in

17     subparagraph 2.  What we've seen in this subparagraph 2 is that the

18     reports were supposed to be weekly for the preceding week, but here it

19     says that the director of the verification mission and the staff may be

20     invited to accompany or escort the police within Kosovo.  So the

21     headquarters director or head was supposed to ask for this under

22     subparagraph 2 of this agreement.

23        A.   Okay.

24        Q.   But what you've just said a few moments ago, perhaps you received

25     with some delay on the same day that there would be police movements; in

Page 8775

 1     other words, much earlier than the week -- dead-line of a week that is

 2     provided for by this subparagraph 2.  Would you agree with me?

 3        A.   Okay, I can agree that there was a delay on receiving the

 4     movements of the MUP or even the VJ, but I would tell you that often what

 5     we did receive wasn't accurate.

 6        Q.   And how did you verify the accuracy of the information provided?

 7     Did you verify this by receiving information from some Albanian from the

 8     field and then you compared it to the report or did you do it in some

 9     other way?

10        A.   No, when we did get the reports from our MUP liaison officer who

11     was working with the MUP, often the KVM mission would go to a village

12     that we were -- had understanding that the MUP was going to visit, and

13     either they didn't arrive or they went to a different village.  On

14     occasion, the reports would be accurate and the coordination would be

15     good and the KVM would meet up with the MUP as established, but it was

16     not something that we could rely on in all cases.

17        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  Would you take a look at subparagraph 3 now,

18     please.

19             Would you agree with me that MUP on the basis of subparagraph 3

20     was entitled to set up check-points, traffic check-points, and

21     check-points in order to prevent crime?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Only if those check-points were set up for some other

24     purpose did they have the responsibility to inform the KVM, or rather,

25     the KVM was entitled to ask for an explanation; is that what this

Page 8776

 1     subparagraph provides for?

 2        A.   I did not write this document.  I can assume that that was the

 3     intent of that particular paragraph.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Would you now take a look at subparagraph 4.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Colonel, sir, am I correct in saying that the verification

 7     mission did not have the right to control the activities of the border

 8     control units of the FRY in the swath of land 5 kilometres from the

 9     border at the time when this agreement was reached under this

10     subparagraph 4?

11        A.   I would agree that the KVM did not have the authority to control

12     that border area.

13        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  But at the request of the verification

14     mission and approval from the border unit, the KVM could also visit those

15     areas; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me that there were

18     misunderstandings where verifiers wanted to go and verify or actually

19     inspect border units without submitting previous requests to that effect?

20        A.   There were many misunderstandings and complications at the border

21     area for transit of our vehicles, but I'm not sure and I don't recall

22     those misunderstandings, why they resulted, or whether or not the KVM

23     mission that was responsible for that particular job had sent requests to

24     the FRY for access at the border areas.  I just don't recall.

25        Q.   Colonel, sir, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  This

Page 8777

 1     paragraph - and all I'm asking about now is the inspections of the border

 2     units of Yugoslavia.  The verifiers were not allowed to carry out such

 3     inspections without having previously submitted a request for these

 4     inspections, and frequently it was the case that these verifiers would

 5     just show up there without having submitted the prior request and then

 6     they were denied this request and this is what actually led to

 7     misunderstandings?

 8        A.   I have no reason to dispute that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at subparagraph 5 now.  Again this

10     has to do with escorts.

11             Am I correct in saying that the verification mission could submit

12     a request to accompany police units in Kosovo as they performed their

13     normal policing roles or at the invitation of the MUP that they could do

14     so?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             Have you ever seen -- did you ever see a request from the

18     verification mission, not necessarily from the headquarters but perhaps

19     also from a coordination centre, so did you ever see a request for

20     accompanying police units as they performed their duties?

21        A.   I never saw a request, but they typically wouldn't come through

22     my office anyway whether they were formal or informal.  We would hear

23     about requests at our staff meeting, that they were submitted, but never

24     saw them.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 8778

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the next

 2     page of the English version, under Roman IV, subparagraph 2.

 3        Q.   Colonel, sir, would you agree with me that this agreement

 4     provides for 2.000 unarmed verifiers?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Tell us, please, what is the basis then -- what is the basis

 7     for -- for the procurement of weapons for securing the mission, because

 8     as a mission, as a verifying mission, you were not actually allowed to be

 9     armed.  Would you agree with me that such a request was actually a

10     request to alter the terms of this agreement?

11        A.   I think that you're misrepresenting what the original request was

12     of the OSCE for weapons.  We requested weapons for body-guards for

13     Ambassador Walker, not for the entire mission, so we were talking only

14     about two or three men that would be armed to provide the security for

15     Ambassador Walker.  We were not talking about nor we ever requested that

16     the entire mission be armed.

17        Q.   Colonel, sir, I thought you actually read through the entire

18     subparagraph 2.  It says:

19             "2.000 unarmed verifiers ..." including the staff

20     "... headquarters and support staff ..."

21             And if the body-guards of Ambassador Walker's are support staff,

22     even they would not be entitled to carrying arms under this subparagraph?

23        A.   I don't disagree with that.  I will tell you that

24     Ambassador Walker personally asked for personal security based on

25     incidents that we had confronted once we arrived in Kosovo.

Page 8779

 1        Q.   I absolutely agree, but I'd like to ask you this:  I see that you

 2     cooperated or worked together mostly with Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Loncar, and

 3     other representatives of the cooperation mission.  Do you know whether

 4     any steps were taken with the presiding officer of the OSCE or its

 5     Secretariat to propose to the FRY government to change or amend the

 6     agreement of the 16th of October, so as to enable certain members of the

 7     KVM to carry arms?

 8        A.   I don't have any knowledge of what the Secretariat did with that

 9     information.  We requested to them what the need was for the body-guards

10     to be armed for Ambassador Walker.  Whether they went through formal

11     channels with the FRY government I don't know.  I know that we levied

12     that request to Mr. Sainovic, and he took that request forward to see if

13     he could assist us in meeting that request.

14        Q.   Colonel, would you agree that this agreement in its unchanged

15     form remained valid all the way until the 20th of March, 1999, when you

16     left Kosovo?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Another thing, since I see that this was the topic of

19     much discussion and waste of time, and that is the issue of helicopters.

20     Does this agreement foresee at all that the verification mission have any

21     helicopters?

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would just like to put an objection

23     on the record that the commentary about a "waste of time" is

24     inappropriate in the question.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Hannis, but it washes over us.  Don't be

Page 8780

 1     alarmed.

 2             Carry on, please, Mr. Djurdjic.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Could you repeat the question again, sir.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Yes, without the "waste of time" part.  Do you agree that the

 6     agreement did not foresee for the verification mission to have its own

 7     helicopters for medical purposes?

 8        A.   I would agree.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I won't waste any time any further.  But while we're

10     still on the topic, although we will go through another two documents for

11     which DZ said they were the Bible of the verification mission, but let's

12     skip ahead for the time being.  Do you agree with me that you were

13     completely in the dark as to how to perform the operation of verification

14     based on all the documents we have seen?

15        A.   No, I wouldn't agree with that comment.

16        Q.   What would be your position in terms of applying the documents we

17     just saw?  What was your understanding of them?

18        A.   Those documents are truly a foundation for what the KVM mission

19     would be based on.  Once the mission stood up, the requirements for the

20     safety of our people was a top priority for Ambassador Walker.  And the

21     reason that we requested the helicopter, a medical helicopter, from the

22     Swiss was purely for evacuating potential KVM members that were wounded.

23     So I look at this as a foundational document that we would on occasion

24     ask assistance with.

25        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  It seems we were speaking at cross-purposes.

Page 8781

 1     I may have jumped the gun a bit, but let's go to P387 next and perhaps

 2     then I'll rephrase this question and put another one that I had in mind.

 3             Colonel, we have a document of the 25th of October, 1998.  In the

 4     preamble we see the position of the FRY government which was attached to

 5     the communique and the military representatives were informed.  The basis

 6     of this document is actually the communique itself, the press release,

 7     hence I'd like to move forward to the next page.  Let's have a look at

 8     Roman numeral II, sub-items 1, 2, 3, and 4.

 9             Colonel, you must have been acquainted with these provisions

10     during your verification mission in Kosovo and Metohija; is that correct?

11     Sorry, I don't mean the data contained therein as such, but the

12     provisions in general.

13        A.   I would agree with that, that our mission had this information.

14        Q.   I'm not discussing the information strictly speaking, but simply

15     whether you had any general knowledge of this statement and its items.

16     Were you familiar with it in the course of verification?

17        A.   I don't recall precisely, but I don't have any reason to dispute

18     it.  I mean, it wouldn't make -- it would be logical to me that we would

19     be aware of this document.

20        Q.   This is one of the basic documents for the verification, by

21     virtue of which the FRY government undertook certain obligations to

22     reduce the levels of police units in Kosovo to the level as it was in

23     February 1998; also they obliged that they would not use any calibres

24     larger than 12.7 millimetres; and that the army will withdraw all

25     equipment that was introduced into Kosovo after February.  Were you

Page 8782

 1     familiar with that?

 2        A.   I can't say that I was familiar with it personally.  I didn't --

 3     I don't recall this document.  I'm sure it was an underpinning and a

 4     foundational document for how the mission stood up, but I'm -- I can't

 5     give you any specifics about what I knew or didn't know about what I'm

 6     reading here.

 7        Q.   What I read out to you was supposed to be the task of the

 8     verification mission, to check whether it was complied with.  Let me ask

 9     you this:  Everything you have been telling us is what you heard from

10     other people because you really did not have a clue what the true task of

11     the verification mission was.  Is that correct?

12        A.   No, I would disagree with not having a clue of what the mission

13     was.

14        Q.   I apologise, I may have been a bit rough, but given the role you

15     had as the Chief of Staff you simply noted down what others heard and

16     said without going into the essence of the matters involved and the -- to

17     the heart of the issue of verification?

18        A.   My role, as I previously testified, as the Chief of Staff was

19     initially to set the mission up, and we did that for about six weeks,

20     until we got into the operational aspects of the mission in December.

21     These documents of verification that you have shown me were in the hands

22     of our operational head of mission director, General DZ, and he was

23     responsible for ensuring that the verification was taking place within

24     the boundaries of the documents that were provided.

25             For me to have detailed knowledge of it, I certainly may have in

Page 8783

 1     the early part of the mission, but I don't recall all the documents and

 2     the scope of the documents that you provided me and how they were applied

 3     in the mission.  We were aware of the boundaries, we were aware of the

 4     mandates, we were aware of the Holbrooke-Milosevic Agreement, we were

 5     aware of the 2.000 verifiers, which I would tell you we never did get

 6     into Kosovo for a number of reasons.  And we were aware that we also had

 7     agreements that we could conduct some no-notice inspections, whether that

 8     be in barracks, which I think primarily where that was aimed.  I can't

 9     speak to the border piece of your earlier questions.

10        Q.   Witness, these documents, as I told you already, were qualified

11     by DZ as being the Bible of the KVM.  Given your function - and I accept

12     what you said - but were you involved in the verification mission only as

13     the Chief of Staff of General Walker, who noted down what others said; or

14     did you take active participation, being familiar with the contents of

15     the documents and providing assessments on non -- of non-compliance and

16     whether something was or was not part of the agreement?  Can you try and

17     answer that because that will determine what my follow-up questions will

18     be.

19        A.   Neither myself nor Ambassador Walker acted in the field as true

20     verifiers; that was left to the operations teams and the RC commanders

21     that managed those regions.  Our purpose in going into the field was to

22     visit the RC commanders, look at their situations, visit with the people

23     in the villages, observe the activities of the VJ and MUP activities.

24     The verifications were done by the ops teams and they reported back to

25     the RCs and back to the OSCE headquarters.

Page 8784

 1        Q.   Colonel, it seems you misunderstand me.  I accept everything you

 2     have said so far, but I want to ask you this:  A decision as to whether

 3     there was a non-compliance or not and a decision to report such

 4     non-compliance to certain bodies of this OSCE, that decision was made by

 5     Mr. Walker and his associates and all of them had to be acquainted with

 6     the provisions of the agreement we have been discussing.  I'm asking you

 7     this:  Did you merely take notes during the meetings, noting down what

 8     others heard about the events, or did you actively participate in the

 9     decision-making process of whether there was or was not a non-compliance

10     issue?  That is why I want to know this because that will determine

11     whether I will continue going through these documents with you or not .

12        A.   I took the note --

13             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours -- I'm sorry.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Hannis.

15             MR. HANNIS:  -- I would object.  I think this has been asked and

16     answered.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             Carry on, please, Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Colonel, could you please answer.

21        A.   I --

22        Q.   Did you only keep records of what others said, noting down their

23     opinions, or did you participate in the making of decisions as to whether

24     something amounted to an instance of non-compliance or not?

25        A.   I did not participate in making decisions on issues of

Page 8785

 1     non-compliance or not.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  Yesterday on several occasions you said that

 3     the Army of Yugoslavia or the MUP violated or were in breach of the

 4     agreement.  Were you simply conveying what you heard from others during

 5     the meetings with Mr. Walker or was that actually your position?

 6        A.   Those were the positions of Ambassador Walker and General DZ.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this:  Did you know under what

 8     conditions these agreements, the February agreements, came to being?

 9        A.   I'm not sure I understand your question.  What do you mean

10     "conditions"?

11             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I have a question.  I'm not sure which

12     February agreements we're talking about.  Can we refer the witness to a

13     specific document?

14             JUDGE PARKER:  You could help me as well, Mr. Djurdjic.  What

15     February agreements?

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] It should have been October

17     Agreements rather than February agreements.  So what were the conditions

18     in which these October Agreements came into being in 1998.

19        Q.   Let's simplify things.  Colonel, we have the agreement on

20     verification, then this agreement, and the Milosevic-Byrnes Agreement of

21     the 25th October.  Do you know what the situation was in the background

22     of these agreements in terms of the political situation which resulted in

23     all of them being signed?

24        A.   I didn't participate in the writing of any of those documents, so

25     I don't know what the backgrounds were before I came on board with the

Page 8786

 1     mission.

 2        Q.   Were you familiar with the fact that NATO issued an

 3     Activation Order to bomb the FRY in October 1998?

 4        A.   I can't recall whether I was aware of that or not.

 5        Q.   During your mandate there, did you know that the decision to bomb

 6     was stayed, but that there was always a possibility that in case of

 7     non-compliance NATO would re-activate that Activation Order to actually

 8     bomb the FRY?

 9        A.   It's really beyond the scope of my knowledge of what NATO would

10     do or wouldn't do.  We were there to form a mission.  The decisions NATO

11     made were clearly out of my hands.  I don't know what was happening in

12     the North Atlantic Council with regard to that decision.

13        Q.   What I'm telling you about did not take place within NATO.  It

14     was a fact which existed throughout your mission.  All reports and

15     controls of yours --

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I --

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] -- were to the effect to the -- to

18     determine whether the agreement was complied with or not --

19             MR. HANNIS:  I would --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. -- excuse me, Mr. Hannis.

21             Mr. Djurdjic, you are there in a position of giving evidence,

22     which we've discussed before.  You are not putting to the witness whether

23     something was the situation; you are asserting it was and making that, as

24     I understand it, the basis for asking the witness something further.

25     Now, if you want to establish a foundation from the witness, you will

Page 8787

 1     need to get him to tell you what that position was and then proceed from

 2     there.  And he may tell you he didn't know enough about those things to

 3     be able to help you, judging from what he said so far.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Colonel, why was KDOM supposed to perform its mission to carry

 6     out verification until the KVM was set up?  Are you familiar with that?

 7        A.   I have no knowledge of what the political reasons were for why

 8     KDOM was to establish its key mission, but my feeling and opinion is is

 9     that KDOM was to remain in place until the KVM was operational and

10     functioning on its own, at which time we would absorb the KDOM capability

11     into the KVM mission.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Although you were not acquainted with the October

13     Agreements in detail, but once you became a member of the KVM did you

14     know that there were dead-lines before which the FRY was supposed to meet

15     the obligations undertaken under the October Agreements?

16        A.   You know, I don't -- I just don't recall from memory what, if

17     any, dead-lines were required of us.  I knew we had reporting dead-lines.

18     I knew we had -- our ops people were going through verification

19     compliance -- non-compliance documents in detail, learning those.  But I

20     do not -- I don't have a memory for what you're asking there.

21        Q.   I don't know whether you're misunderstanding me or not.  I'm not

22     talking about your verification mission.  I showed you the agreement.

23     Before the KVM was set up and before it became operational, verification

24     issues were supposed to be carried out by the KDOM.  Are you familiar

25     with that?

Page 8788

 1        A.   I'm not familiar what documents KDOM was operating under, no.  I

 2     don't know what KDOM's mission was when I got there, and only learned of

 3     what it was doing shortly after arrival.  What precisely is your question

 4     of me?

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P835 on the screen,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   Colonel, sir, on page 1, Roman numeral I, sub-item 5, could you

 8     please read out loud.

 9        A.   "KDOM will act in" --

10             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  We've already looked at

11     this paragraph.  I don't know why we need him to read it.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Is there something new you need to put from this

13     paragraph, Mr. Djurdjic?

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That seems to be the question I'm

15     putting that the colonel cannot understand.  I wanted to jog his memory.

16     I asked him three times and did not receive an answer.  The gist of my

17     question is as follows:  Was he familiar with this once he assumed his

18     duties, the thing envisaged by sub-para 5, that is to say that KDOM will

19     act in place of the KVM until it is set up.  That is the question and I

20     do not seem to be able to receive an answer to that.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sorry, I thought you had the answer more than

22     once and it is crystal clear, that he did not know anything of the

23     details of the functioning and purpose of KDOM until arrival.  Shortly

24     after the arrival he learned of the essence of KDOM and that he learnt

25     that it and understood that it would be absorbed into KVM when KVM was

Page 8789

 1     fully operational.

 2             Is that a summary of what you've said so far?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  That's his position.  You're wanting to ask, I

 5     suspect, Mr. Djurdjic:  What was the purpose being fulfilled by KDOM

 6     which KVM took over, was it the same purpose?  I think you're trying to

 7     get to why all this verification was occurring, and the problem is this

 8     witness may not be the right one.  You or your colleague have asked

 9     earlier witnesses who may have known more about that, but if I correctly

10     guess what it is that you're aiming toward, that may help you to frame a

11     question or two.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, am I right in saying that KDOM, until KVM became

14     operational, carried out verification?

15        A.   I have never read the KDOM execution orders on what it was that

16     they were doing.  I never travelled with them on any of their visits.  I

17     don't know what KDOM actually did.  I don't know if they were to assume

18     the same roles that KVM was about to assume.  I don't know if they were

19     just observers.  I don't know if they were called verifiers.  I don't

20     have an answer for you of what the KDOM mission was.

21        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  When did the KVM become operational?

22        A.   I would have to tell you that KVM became operational the day that

23     Ambassador Walker set foot on the ground, which would have been roughly

24     4 November; however, having said that, we spent four to six weeks just

25     standing up the mission.  And we got into the field for the first time in

Page 8790

 1     about December of 1998.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Does this mean that until December 1998 you did not

 3     know what was going on in the field?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Are you aware that KDOM up until -- actually handed over its

 6     files up until the take-over by the KVM; and if so, do you know where

 7     those files are?

 8        A.   Yeah, I'm unaware of documents that KDOM gave to our KVM mission.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see exhibit -- or

11     rather document D004-4367.  Specifically could we see page 23 of the

12     English version.

13        Q.   Well, this is your handwriting, I believe, your handwritten

14     notes?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, if we're going to talk about his notes

17     we need to go into private session.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you going into their content?

19             Private.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8791











11  Pages 8791-8792 redacted. Private session.















Page 8793

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we see D162, Exhibit D162.

11        Q.   Colonel, looking at the date here, it would seem to me that you

12     were in the US at this time on leave on the 8th of January, 1999; am I

13     correct?

14        A.   I don't remember precisely, but I did take leave at some point.

15     So no reason to dispute it, I was there.

16        Q.   Well, you were for sure, although I see that you don't remember

17     now, but let me try to refresh your memory.  I believe you went on leave

18     for New Year's and I believe you returned on the 10th of January, 1999.

19        A.   Okay.

20        Q.   Well, I see that you can't recall that, but it doesn't really

21     matter.  Just -- I want to ask you this:  Are you aware or were you aware

22     of these press releases while you were away from Pristina or maybe did

23     you learn about them later on?

24        A.   I don't remember.  I mean, it -- you know, what I looked at when

25     I was leave, where I went when I was on leave, I didn't have a

Page 8794

 1     BlackBerry, so I wasn't getting any reporting.  So I would tell you that

 2     while I was on the leave I was unaware of press reporting that was coming

 3     out of the OSCE, so I would have more than likely learned about them when

 4     I came back.

 5        Q.   Well, are you aware of this incident that is reported here in

 6     this report?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know that at the same time, maybe even on the same day,

 9     there was another patrol that was attacked, a MUP patrol that was

10     attacked in Slivovo, near Stimlje, and that a MUP member was killed?

11        A.   I am aware that prior to the 15th of January there were a few

12     incidents where MUP police officers were killed or ambushed by KLA, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was Mr. Walker away from Pristina at this time, at

14     the time of this incident, and was he maybe in the US?

15        A.   I believe he and I were in the US at the same time, yes.

16        Q.   And it seems to me that you spent more time working than having

17     leisure time at this time, do you recall, while you were in Washington?

18        A.   We made several visits, State Department, Congress,

19     Department of Defence, yes.

20        Q.   Could you tell me, why did you spend so much time in

21     Washington, DC, on these meetings while Mr. Walker was, in fact, the head

22     of the Kosovo Verification Mission?

23        A.   Are you assuming that I was holding these meetings independently

24     of Ambassador Walker?

25        Q.   No, no.  What I said was you were actually accompanying

Page 8795

 1     Mr. Walker when he went to attend these meetings, so you were with him at

 2     the meetings.  And what I'm asking is:  Why did Mr. Walker as head of the

 3     verification mission, why was he attending all these meetings in the

 4     US, in Washington, DC?

 5        A.   Okay, I understand your question now.  Whenever Ambassador Walker

 6     went back to Washington, he had to notify the State Department, number

 7     one, that he was coming home.  And in doing so they put together a

 8     schedule for him that they wanted him to execute while he was in

 9     Washington.  Obviously being an American, being a US ambassador, several

10     people wanted to know what was happening in Kosovo.  So he would brief

11     what he knew at the time and answer their questions.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see Exhibit D161.

14        Q.   Do you remember this press release?

15        A.   I remember the incident, but I don't remember the press release.

16        Q.   Yes, and in relation to that incident do you remember that

17     Colonel Ciaglinski was in Decani when this incident occurred, when fire

18     was opened on a KVM patrol on the 15th of January, 1999?

19        A.   Okay.

20        Q.   Do you remember that KVM headquarters, while you were still in

21     the US, issued a press release condemning the KLA because of their attack

22     on a KVM patrol?

23        A.   It would have been a logical event for them to do so.  We -- it

24     doesn't surprise me that we issued that.

25        Q.   Colonel, do you remember that at this time General DZ was

Page 8796

 1     actually standing-in for Ambassador Walker and that Mr. Keller was the

 2     chief of the staff of the KVM?

 3        A.   I don't know that Ambassador Keller ever assumed the

 4     Chief of Staff role, but I know that General DZ was assume

 5     Ambassador Walker's role in his absence, yes.

 6        Q.   Colonel, I did not say that he was the Chief of Staff,

 7     Mr. Keller, but rather that he stood -- was standing in for Mr. Walker

 8     while you were in the United States.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, I object.  I read his question in

10     the transcript.  That is what he said.  Maybe there was a translation

11     issue, but --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It seems to be a translation issue, Mr. Hannis.

13             The issue seems to be whether you are aware, Colonel, of the

14     activity of Ambassador Keller standing in for Ambassador Walker during

15     Ambassador Walker's absence, if I correctly understand where we've got

16     to.

17             THE WITNESS:  So the -- you're asking me did Ambassador Keller

18     ever assume Ambassador Walker's role or did General DZ ever assume that

19     role?  I'm a little confused on what your question for me is.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Well, let me try and simplify the question.  While you were away

22     from Pristina over the new year holidays, did Mr. Keller stand in for

23     Mr. Walker as the head of the Pristina headquarters?

24        A.   I'm not a hundred per cent certain, but he did on occasion have

25     Mr. Keller perform that role, as did General DZ also would stand in for

Page 8797

 1     Ambassador Walker.  I'm not sure at that time which one it was.  We

 2     typically stayed in touch, when we were away, with General DZ.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  New, do you remember that Mr. Walker was

 4     upset because of the press release of -- by the

 5     Kosovo Verification Mission of January 8th, condemning the KLA -- or

 6     rather, the press release of the 15th of January, condemning the KLA for

 7     the attack on the MUP, on the police, and that there was a phone call

 8     where they talked about this being a bit premature.  Do you recall that?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, we need some clarification because the

10     press release we were looking at about the 15th appears to be about KLA

11     attacking or wounding KVM officers.  And this question talks about a

12     press release regarding attacks on the MUP.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Your question seems to have confused two

14     incidents, one on the 8th and one on the 15th of January, Mr. Djurdjic.

15     Which is it that you're asking about, the first press release?

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I've actually

17     confused these two, and I've ended up with the incident of the 21st, but

18     then I also referred to the press release of the 8th of January.  And

19     what I was asking is whether the witness remembered that Mr. Walker was

20     angry because of this condemnation, this denouncement in the press

21     release, and that it was premature because it would actually make the

22     work of the KVM more difficult.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  This is a question directed to the press release

24     of the 8th of January concerning the wounding of or killing of three MUP

25     officers and the wounding of two more and civilians.

Page 8798

 1             THE WITNESS:  I'm -- I do not recall the press report in detail,

 2     what that was about.  But Ambassador Walker, I know, was upset in regards

 3     to the KVM verifiers being shot at.  He was upset with each event where

 4     there was a MUP policeman injured by the KLA, and I remember him saying

 5     on several occasions when he would condemn the KLA for the action that

 6     this was not helpful for them, to continue this kind of action.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   All right.  I think we will return to this later.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is the

10     right time for a break.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  Now, how are you going for time,

12     Mr. Djurdjic?

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, as I said before, I will

14     comply with that.  So whatever time I have left I will try and make my

15     questions a bit briefer and I'm sure that we will complete with this

16     witness questioning today.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  That I take it is a revised expectation.  Last

18     night we were rather given the expectation that you might finish during

19     this first session, so now you see it taking much longer.  Is that right?

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, we were far more efficient

21     yesterday, and I did not expect that we will take so much time today.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it that you will finish during the next

23     session?

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We must have our first break now.  We will resume

Page 8799

 1     at 11.00.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Please be seated.

 6             Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we

 8     move into closed session, please.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8800











11  Pages 8800-8822 redacted. Private session.















Page 8823

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Can the notes be taken from the screen, please.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree that at the time when you visited Racak and its

10     environs, the location was not secured for an on-site investigation?

11        A.   Secured by -- by KVM or secured by the MUP?  Secured at all?

12     I'm ...

13        Q.   There was no MUP in Racak, that is -- that would mean that it

14     would either have to be done by the verifiers or other members of the KVM

15     who were in Racak.  Did they secure the scene of crime in your knowledge

16     when you were there?

17        A.   I guess if you're asking me were there MUP around, no; was KVM

18     there, yes.  We had a number of verifiers that were taking reports of

19     what events had occurred.  Whether the site was secured or not as a crime

20     scene, that wasn't in KVM's charter to do that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice the bodies of those killed being moved

22     and that the spent shells, cartridges, were being taken away as

23     souvenirs?

24        A.   I'm aware of a couple of families that retrieved their loved ones

25     from where they were killed and moved back into their -- into their homes

Page 8824

 1     for the bodies that were up in the ravine, they were -- we were told they

 2     were never touched or never moved, that was, they were shot and killed

 3     where they lay.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that on the 18th of January, 1999, there

 5     was an investigative magistrate of the district court in Pristina

 6     accompanied by Gil Gilbertson and a Mr. Sullivan who was an OSCE

 7     representative -- actually, both of them were?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Accompanied where exactly?

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   To accompany the scene of crime team headed by the investigative

11     judge of the district court in Pristina, her name is Danica Marinkovic.

12        A.   I do remember Ms. Marinkovic very, very well, and I am aware that

13     the OSCE brought her to the scene.

14        Q.   Did you know that the autopsies were also attended by OSCE

15     representatives, Mr. --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Djurdjic please repeat the two names

17     of the OSCE representatives.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It seems I have to repeat the question.  Colonel, did you know

20     that the autopsies were also attended by OSCE representatives

21     Ian Robert Hendrie from England and Mr. Pedersen from Denmark?

22        A.   I don't remember if we attended those autopsies or not.  There's

23     no reason to dispute your claim there.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that members of the KLA kidnapped

25     certain representatives of the Democratic League of Kosovo and they

Page 8825

 1     actually killed some of them?

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Is this on the same day or at some other time?

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I am leaving the topic of Racak, Colonel.  This is an unrelated

 5     question to that topic.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Can we have some indication of when, what year, what

 7     month?

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, in the fall of 1998.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I was aware that the KLA had committed acts of

10     kidnapping and other violence.  I'm not specifically aware of this

11     particular event.  They were certainly no saints.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  You don't recall any activities by Mr. Walker and

14     other members of the verification mission aimed at having those kidnapped

15     by the KLA who were from Mr. Rugova's party released?

16        A.   I don't recall the incident.  I know we worked -- we worked a VJ

17     release and we worked a KLA release, but I don't recall exactly who the

18     kidnapped were.  I know we had Serbian journalists and we had Serbian VJ

19     that had been released.  I don't recall the specifics of everyone that

20     was kidnapped.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Colonel, sir, did you know that the KLA, after the

22     signing of the October Agreements and the withdrawal of the VJ forces,

23     took up positions which it had held before the summer operation?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I'm aware of that.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the road between Pristina and Podujevo and then

Page 8826

 1     to Prokuplje used as the main vein to supply Kosovo and Metohija for both

 2     the civilians and the Army of Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   Yes, I am aware that the Prokuplje road was a key line of

 4     communication and line of transfer.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think ...

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that the end of your questions?

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'll finish the sentence.  I'll

 9     tell you that after the break I wanted to ask Mr. Hannis if he could send

10     me a bit more time and then after that conversation I'll be able to

11     answer your question right after the break.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Hannis, are you in a position to know how long

13     your re-examination might be?

14             MR. HANNIS:  I think about 30 minutes, between 20 and 30 minutes,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

17             If we break now, that's the time that is available for you,

18     Mr. Djurdjic.  I suggest we continue for another five minutes for you to

19     finish.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Colonel, sir, the Yugoslav forces in the Podujevo area react to

22     this by securing the area for further supplies and was this simply a

23     reaction on -- to the KLA actions in that period and in that area?

24        A.   We were briefed that they were concerned about losing control of

25     that particular strategic point to KLA control.  And that briefing that

Page 8827

 1     we received was a verbal briefing in Podujevo from a VJ soldier I recall.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the KLA, in addition to side-arms,

 3     also had anti-tank weapons?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know that they also had guns that had a range of up to

 6     3 to 4 kilometres?

 7        A.   I was aware that they had weapons that went beyond 7.62

 8     millimetres, yes.  Precisely the kinds of weapons -- we're going through

 9     all this.  I knew they had some mortar packs available to them, 7.62; I

10     was aware of -- I never saw them but was aware that there was some

11     anti-tank weapons available to them.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were able to move around Kosovo, could you

13     tell us, based on your experience, your military experience, what kind of

14     fortifications did the Albanian houses in villages have?  What types of

15     walls and gates were there around them?

16        A.   In my experience, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  I

17     stayed in some of those homes.  I'm not precisely sure what you're asking

18     here.  I mean, for me, it was a regular apartment and a regular home that

19     had a -- typically had a gate to enter.

20        Q.   What about the compounds themselves, were they surrounded by high

21     walls?

22        A.   When you refer to "compounds," what are you referring to?  Are

23     you referring to the normal living and housing areas in Pristina or are

24     you talking about in the Drenica valley?  What do you mean by

25     "compounds"?

Page 8828

 1        Q.   Well, what I said was the village homes, Albanian village homes;

 2     in other words, in villages, not in towns and cities.  The walls that

 3     surrounded these houses, village houses, did you see how high they were

 4     and did you see them, the walls?

 5        A.   When we visited KLA strongholds such as a facility we called the

 6     Ice House out of Drenica valley, what I observed in those areas was a

 7     fair number of KLA, armed.  I don't recall the heights of the walls in

 8     general around any of their facility.  That's not to say they weren't

 9     there, I just didn't -- I just don't remember them.  I remember that it

10     didn't seem -- wherever we went, it didn't seem like it was a fortified

11     bunker or position of KLA soldiers.  It just seemed like a normal living

12     arrangement, a normal house, from what I can remember.

13        Q.   Witness, on the topic of meetings with Milosevic, would you agree

14     with me that you attended more of those meetings than Mr. Walker?

15        A.   I attended one meeting without him.  I believe that was in

16     December.  I attended one in November.

17        Q.   Would you take my word for it that Mr. Walker only mentions one

18     meeting toward the end of October while you were -- when you were not

19     there yet and another meeting with Mr. Milosevic on November 16th; and

20     second, the chronology, the time-line that Mr. Drewienkiewicz drew up,

21     there was only one meeting with Mr. Milosevic where Mr. Walker attended,

22     jotted down, and that's the same meeting of November 16th.  So there is

23     no mention anywhere of any meeting in December, and I couldn't find any

24     such mention in your notes either, and I read them through very

25     carefully.

Page 8829

 1        A.   Right.  I attended a meeting with Ambassador Holbrooke and

 2     Ambassador Miles that did not include Ambassador Walker.  I thought that

 3     meeting was on December 15th.  I attended a meeting with

 4     Ambassador Walker to see Mr. Milosevic in November, and I'm not sure if

 5     that was between the 23rd, 4th, or 5th, or on the 16th, but I was with

 6     Ambassador Walker on one of those visits.

 7        Q.   Very well, Colonel.  On the 15th of December you attended a

 8     meeting with Milosevic, that was the meeting with Mr. Holbrooke.  That

 9     was on December 15th, 1998.  And let me just say one more thing and this

10     is even in your notes.  The letter of Mr. Walker's of November 23rd was

11     not actually taken and submitted at this meeting, but it was sent only

12     later on, on the 25th.  And let me also remind you that you had a couple

13     of meetings with Mr. Sainovic where you discussed this meeting?

14             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, objection.  That doesn't

15     sound like a question; that sounds like testimony from Mr. Djurdjic.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Same old problem, Mr. Djurdjic.  If you want the

17     witness to agree that the letter was not handed over at the meeting, you

18     need to put that to him and he'll say yes or no.  You can't put it to him

19     as a fact.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No.  What I'm trying to do is just

21     refresh his memory regarding some of these circumstances, but I can also

22     ask him whether I'm correct or not.  I think in the final analysis it

23     comes down to the same thing.  So I was just trying to jog his memory

24     because the witness said that this letter was actually handed in to

25     Milosevic at this meeting on the 23rd, but in fact it was on the 24th or

Page 8830

 1     the 25th.  And I even have your notes here, but I can't find the exact

 2     spot to show that this letter was actually handed in on the 25th well,

 3     never mind.  Just tell us, Witness, do you remember this or not?

 4        A.   I remember the letter.  My memory serves me that it very well may

 5     have been that we gave that letter up through embassy channels and it

 6     went through officially and Ambassador Walker carried his own copy of the

 7     letter.  My recollection is is that he gave him that letter and discussed

 8     that letter.  It's possible that I could be wrong, but I know that we

 9     talked about that letter in there and I remember Ambassador Walker saying

10     it was going to be the purpose of his visit.

11        Q.   Thank you, Colonel, for answering my questions.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours for

13     allowing me additional time for my cross-examination.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

15             We need to have a break now with those tapes, Mr. Hannis, but

16     what we will do is resume at ten minutes past and hope you'll be able to

17     finish in the 20 minutes, which was the lower end of your estimate.

18             MR. HANNIS:  I'll do my very best, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

20             We resume at ten minutes past.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.42 p.m.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I will be very brief,

Page 8831

 1     Your Honours, and this has to do with the exhibits, or rather, the

 2     documents that we propose to be admitted into evidence, D004-4172 and

 3     D004-4175, they should be admitted into evidence without a stamp, and all

 4     the other documents that were on the list should be admitted under seal.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, if that's the agreement of counsel they will

 7     be admitted and exhibit numbers will be assigned and you'll be informed

 8     by memo.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Please sit.

11             Mr. Hannis.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  My first questions are

13     regarding the notebook, so if we could go into private.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8832











11  Pages 8832-8839 redacted. Private session.















Page 8840

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Just a few more, Colonel.  You were asked about what the KVM did

13     in relation to stop weapons smuggling.  Did KVM have any authority to

14     deal with weapons being smuggled into Kosovo?

15        A.   No, sir.

16        Q.   Who was that a job for in Serbia, if you know?

17        A.   I would think that the border guards would be in large part

18     responsible for those weapons that were coming in.

19        Q.   Next you were shown yesterday at page 92, line 10, Exhibit D160,

20     which is UN Resolution 1199.  I won't pull it up.  I'll read.  You were

21     shown paragraph 4(a) and Mr. Djurdjic asked you if you would agree that

22     that only called on Yugoslavia to cease all action.  And his question

23     was:

24             "Q.  Only in relation to the civilian population and to withdraw

25     security units."

Page 8841

 1             I would indicate to you that the document -- the UN Resolution

 2     says:

 3             "Cease all action by the security forces affecting the civilian

 4     population."

 5             My question is:  Those joint VJ and MUP actions that you saw in

 6     Kosovo, even though they may have been directed at KLA, in the manner in

 7     which they were carried out were those actions affecting the civilian

 8     population?

 9        A.   They absolutely were.  They were, in general, sweep operations.

10     And by "sweep" I mean they included all personnel, all people,

11     population, in the village.  It didn't discriminate between the two.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  And the last one I want to ask you about,

13     Exhibit 835, which is the agreement about the KVM mission.  Mr. Djurdjic

14     made the point that the primary purpose was to maintain the cease-fire?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   And I have a question.  In your efforts to verify whether there

17     was compliance with the cease-fire, did KVM requests from Mr. Sainovic

18     and that group that you met with that you be advised in advance when

19     there were going to be movements of MUP or VJ in carrying out some of

20     these anti-terrorist actions?

21        A.   Yes, we had asked for advanced notice.  At least 24 hours we had

22     asked for.

23        Q.   And did Mr. Sainovic agree to do that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Was that important to you in being able to carry out your job?

Page 8842

 1        A.   Very much important to us, yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Because if you were only going to be notified a week after that

 3     occurred, how would that help you do any verification?

 4        A.   It was one of the frustrations of the mission.  We just didn't

 5     get timely coordination for being able to be in front of some of these

 6     operations or accompany these operations.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And if you only got reports a week after they happened,

 8     you might as well have been in Hawaii as Pristina?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. HANNIS:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much for that, Mr. Hannis.

13             You'll be pleased to know that that's the end of the run.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  We would like to thank you for coming once again,

16     for the assistance you have been able to give.  You are free to return to

17     your normal activities.  The Court Officer will show you out.  We would

18     thank those who have assisted you in your time here.

19             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  We are at the point of an adjournment for some two

24     weeks.  We hope in that time, A, Mr. Hannis, the Prosecution will be able

25     not only to review its case and its position to be sure and have clearly

Page 8843

 1     in its mind what else needs to be done so that there is no further hiccup

 2     in the presentation of the Prosecution case.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  I'll convey that to the team, Your Honour, and we'll

 4     make our best efforts.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good.  And efforts are made to ensure the

 6     witnesses are here.  In the last couple of weeks we've been slipping

 7     fairly badly on performance and losing time.  We would hope that can be

 8     behind us now and things will move along.

 9             While this break will be of immediate assistance to the

10     Prosecution, it's also one that should assist the Defence a great deal in

11     collecting your thoughts and finalising your preparation with a view to

12     the steps that need to be taken when the Prosecution case finishes, and

13     if necessary to -- looking ahead to the preparation and presentation of

14     the Defence case.  As we have indicated that should that be the course

15     taken, it will -- should not be expected that there'll be a long break

16     between the end of the Prosecution case and the start of the Defence

17     case.  We want to keep the trial moving, so we would encourage Defence

18     counsel to be giving thought ahead during this fortnight's break.

19             With those words of encouragement, we hope that the break is of

20     assistance to all parties and we resume again on Tuesday afternoon, the

21     22nd, I think, Courtroom I, I'm told.  So we look forward to seeing you

22     then.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.36 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

25                           September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.