Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9754

 1                           Tuesday, 8 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Good afternoon to everyone.

 8                           WITNESS:  VLASTIMIR DJORDJEVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Djordjevic, could you please go to tab 151,

12     and I would like us all to look at document D004-1705 on our screens.

13     That's 911 on our 65 ter list.  Just a moment, we're still waiting for

14     the document to come up on our screens.  That's the one.

15        A.   I think we should look at the next page.

16        Q.   That's page 1 of this document, at least that's what I had.  So

17     could you please go to next page.  Yes, that's fine.

18             Now, Mr. Djordjevic, here we can see a memo dated the

19     30th of April, 1999, from Assistant Minister Stojan Misic.  So could you

20     please tell us, briefly, what is this document about?

21        A.   This is a notification sent to all border police stations and

22     SUPs and the MUP staff in Pristina and also to some organisational units

23     in the MUP headquarters by the assistant minister, Mr. Misic -- actually,

24     a new war press card form -- format was established and the addressees of

25     this dispatch were told that the new format was in force now.  The

Page 9755

 1     previous one was no longer valid.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have this document

 3     exhibited.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D447.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, could we please look at D254.

 7        Q.   That would be at tab 152, Mr. Djordjevic.

 8             Mr. Djordjevic, here we can see a memo from the 4th of May, 1999.

 9     You signed it.  Could you please tell us what is this document about?

10        A.   Well, orders were issued to all secretariats and all

11     organisational units in the public security department and to the MUP

12     staff in Pristina as to how to treat assignments related to the security

13     of persons and places after the NATO air-strikes and the obligations that

14     the members of the ministry had after those air-strikes.  It is a

15     reminder to all the secretariats and the organisational units as to how

16     they should act if there are any attacks, how they should put out fires

17     and provide help to any persons who were at risk because of the

18     air-strikes and so on.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regarding your order

21     yesterday - and that was about the admission of D443, a report at the --

22     in the office of the supreme commander of the 4th of May, 1999, published

23     in "Politika" daily on the 5th of May, 1999 - I was actually wrong.  On

24     the 65 ter list provided by the Prosecution there is a piece of evidence,

25     a memo written on the 6th of May, 1999, by the MUP staff and sent to all

Page 9756

 1     the secretariats in Kosovo and Metohija, to the PJP and the

 2     Special Anti-Terrorist Unit.  Attached thereto was the text that we

 3     admitted into evidence yesterday.  So now the Defence would be seeking to

 4     expand our 65 ter list to include this document.  Now, I don't know

 5     whether this is an appropriate time to deal with that or perhaps we can

 6     do it later.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  You wish to add the document now on the screen to

 8     your 65 ter list?

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, not the one that's on the

10     screen.  That one's already been admitted.  But the 65 ter document of --

11     the Prosecution document, the number is 2159.  It's on their 65 ter list.

12     I don't know if we can maybe see it on the screen -- well, it's about to

13     come up.

14             Perhaps if we can scroll down so that we can see the body of the

15     text in English.  In Serbian we can see it, but we don't see it in

16     Serbian.  Could we please have page 2 in the English version.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be added to the list, Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can I now tender it into evidence so that we get everything, so

21     that -- under the same number, if this could be attached to D443.  We

22     want to have a single exhibit -- or perhaps if you prefer we can have two

23     separate exhibits.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  This will become part of Exhibit D443.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 9757

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Djordjevic, could you please go to tab 154.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] D004-1586.  That's 1779 on the

 3     Defence 65 ter list.

 4        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, we're about to see a dispatch dated the

 5     12th of May, 1999, signed by Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic on our screens.

 6     So could you please wait for us to actually look at this dispatch once

 7     it's on our screens and then you can perhaps tell us what this dispatch

 8     is all about.

 9        A.   The minister sent this dispatch on the 12th of May to the border

10     police stations and to the secretariats where border police stations were

11     located, notifying them that they should improve the efficiency of the

12     transportation of humanitarian relief, supplies, goods that are used for

13     the production; in other words, to reduce the administrative procedures

14     at the border to the minimum in order for the goods to reach their

15     addressees as soon as possible.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please exhibit this

18     document.  I would like to tender it into evidence.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D448.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at

22     document D008-2518.

23        Q.   That would be at tab 155.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And it's 473 on the

25     Defence 65 ter list.

Page 9758

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Djordjevic, we see a memo date the 7th of May, 1999,

 2     sent by the minister to the Supreme Command Staff.  Could you please tell

 3     us what is this all about?

 4        A.   Yes, on the 7th of May, 1999, the minister sent to the

 5     Supreme Command Staff, to Colonel-General Ojdanic, who was the

 6     Chief of Staff, a memo telling him that in line with the previous

 7     agreement the -- he should actually let the minister of the interior have

 8     some assets, some weapons primarily that were needed by the police in

 9     light of constant NATO attacks on our territory.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Djordjevic, could you please tell us, who

11     was it in the ministry that actually made decisions, and who actually

12     dealt with the procurement of materiel and equipment?

13        A.   It was the general services administration.

14     General Petar Zekovic was directly responsible to the minister.  That was

15     the administration that dealt with financial affairs and also with

16     procurement of everything that was needed for the ministry.

17        Q.   Yes.  And who could actually make the decision to procure some

18     items?

19        A.   Well, all requests that pertained to equipment in the ministry

20     were dealt with by the minister.  He decided on all that.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D449.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have

Page 9759

 1     D008-151 -- 2515.  That's 472 on the Defence 65 ter list.

 2        Q.   And that would be 156, your tab, Mr. Djordjevic.

 3        A.   On the basis of the request that we have seen, General Ojdanic

 4     issues an order dated the 12th of May to his administration for

 5     procurement.  That administration was supposed to provide the equipment,

 6     the necessary equipment, to the Ministry of the Interior.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to tender this

 8     into evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D450.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to look at

12     D008-2512.  That's 471 on the Defence 65 ter list.

13        Q.   That would be at tab 157 for you, Mr. Djordjevic.

14             Could you please tell us, briefly, what this document is all

15     about?

16        A.   Well, now, this logistics sector that received an order from the

17     Chief of the General Staff to provide the equipment issued an order to

18     its subordinate unit, the unit that was actually supposed to provide the

19     items, instructing it to do that by the 20th of May, 1999, and to report

20     back about the compliance with the order.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I please tender this into

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D451, Your Honours.

Page 9760

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we see

 2     D001-2933, 1206 is the 65 ter Defence list.

 3        Q.   158 tab in your binder.  Mr. Djordjevic, we don't have a

 4     translation of this document, but please read from the first page so that

 5     we can see what this is about.

 6        A.    Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic, on the 12th of June, 1999, sent

 7     this letter to the Supreme Command Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

 8     Colonel-General Dragoljub Ojdanic.  He sent to him a survey of attacks of

 9     Albanian terrorists using mines and explosives in the territory of

10     Kosovo and Metohija in the time-period from January 1, 1998, until the

11     6th of June, 1999, for their use.  So this survey contains information

12     about attacks during roughly one year.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be marked for

15     identification, please.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D452, marked

18     for identification.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, now we have come to the 12th of June.  Yesterday

21     you told us that on the eve of the Kumanovo Agreement you went to

22     Pristina.  Can you tell us, please, how and why did you go to Pristina,

23     who else was there when you went there on the eve of Kumanovo Agreement?

24        A.   I think that at that point in time Kumanovo Agreement had already

25     been signed, and there were responsibilities specified for the forces of

Page 9761

 1     Yugoslavia and Serbia, namely, for them to withdraw from the territory of

 2     Kosovo and Metohija.  Together with the minister on the 10th of June, we

 3     went to Kosovo, and a meeting was held at the staff with all the members

 4     of the staff and with chiefs of secretariats.  At the meeting, we pointed

 5     out obligations that secretariats had in terms of withdrawal from Kosovo

 6     and what other tasks needed to be completed because that pull-out had to

 7     be completed within the following one or two days, or, rather, when NATO

 8     forces arrived at the border.

 9             Therefore, in accordance with the agreement that had been signed,

10     the minister and General Stevanovic, who signed the agreement on behalf

11     of the ministry delegation, spoke about those duties and obligations; and

12     pursuant to those obligations, the secretariats acted in the following

13     period and removed their personnel from Kosovo and Metohija into the

14     territory of Serbia.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P1209, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, it's tab 159 in your binder.  We will now see a

18     dispatch dated the 12th of June, 1999.  Tell us, briefly, what is the

19     content of this dispatch signed by you?

20        A.   Yes.  On the 12th of June, I sent a dispatch to all SUPs, to the

21     staff, and to the heads of units within the ministry seat.  I sent them

22     this dispatch detailing which secretariat from the territory of

23     Kosovo and Metohija would be relocated to the territory of which

24     secretariat in the territory of Serbia.  Based on this dispatch, the

25     Nis SUP was to receive the entire equipment, weaponry, and everything

Page 9762

 1     else from the Pristina SUP; Kraljevo SUP was to receive all of the

 2     equipment and materiel of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP; Kragujevac was to

 3     receive everything from the Pec SUP.  So this is what this dispatch was

 4     about, which secretariats in Serbia would receive the equipment and

 5     everything else from the premises from Kosovo secretariats.  And they

 6     were also to provide facilities for them to work.

 7             The other part of this dispatch deals with the members of

 8     "posebne" units who were coming back from Kosovo and Metohija.  And there

 9     is also a provision here that all of them are to receive five days, that

10     the review of troops and weapons was to be conducted, that people should

11     be allowed to use their unused annual leave days, and that also certain

12     compensation that was overdue needed to be paid to them.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P1210.

15        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, this is your letter dated the 27th of June, 1999.

16     Could you please explain to us why this letter was drafted and what is

17     this about.

18        A.   After the withdrawal of forces of the ministry from the territory

19     of Kosovo and Metohija, the assessment was that some activities of these

20     forces from Kosovo would be aimed towards the secretariats -- would be

21     linked with secretariats, and the territory that borders the territory of

22     Kosovo, which was the territory of Vranje, Leskovac, Prokuplje,

23     Novi Pazar, and Uzice Secretariats.

24             Therefore, the secretariats from these areas were ordered to

25     draft an evaluation.  And all of this has to do with the fact that the

Page 9763

 1     Kumanovo Agreement provided for a land zone -- a land security zone in

 2     order to protect the territory of Serbia, as a result of which these

 3     secretariats were given certain obligations in that regard.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 008-0511.  This

 6     is 909 off -- on the OTP 65 ter list -- or rather, on the Defence list.

 7        Q.   And this is tab 161 in your binder, Mr. Djordjevic.

 8        A.   This is a criminal report or a criminal complaint filed on the

 9     30th of April, 2001, against the minister, against me, and then under 3

10     there's a mistake.  There should be Zoran Milic, not Stojan Milic, who is

11     assistant chief of the police administration --

12        Q.   Just a moment, please.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the second page in

14     the English and in the Serbian version.

15        Q.   You can continue.

16        A.   So under 3 there's a mistake here.  It should read Zoran Milic

17     and not Stojan Milic, so a mistake in the name.  A criminal report was

18     filed against us.  In relation to the minister it charged him with abuse

19     of his position; for me -- it had something to do with the National Bank

20     of Yugoslavia; the same charge related to me as well because I signed

21     some receipts for athletes who participated in some competitions outside

22     of Serbia, and they charged me with improper use of budget funds.  This

23     is the answers of the charges against me.

24        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, please slowly, for the sake of the transcript,

25     please tell us what this criminal report charged you with and what did --

Page 9764

 1     what were the charges against the minister?

 2        A.   As for the minister, it says crime under Article 242,

 3     paragraphs 1 and 3, for abuse of power and for failure to discharge his

 4     duties, for failure to order the -- for failure to order that the

 5     National Bank of Yugoslavia receive certain funds in the amount of

 6     490.000 marks; and as for me, they claimed that I abused my office by

 7     signing travel orders for athletes who represented an athletic club

 8     overseas.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And what happened afterwards, as far as you know,

10     about -- in relation to this criminal report which was submitted to the

11     district prosecutor?

12        A.   What I know is that the entire financial documentation of this

13     athletic club, whose chairman I was, was inspected by the inspectors of

14     the crime investigations police and various other services; and following

15     investigation, they established that I signed these receipts and travel

16     orders, and this is what they put in this criminal report.  At that point

17     in time I did not see this criminal report.  I learned of this

18     investigation and that they were preparing to arrest me only afterwards.

19     This is what the situation is regarding this criminal report and charges

20     against me.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Under Article 41 of the ministry of -- or rather, of

22     the Law on Internal Affairs, you went into early retirement.  Did you;

23     and, if so, when did you sign the request to retire?

24        A.   I was retired on the 3rd of May.  In the course of the day --

25             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, that's an appalling -- an appalling

Page 9765

 1     leading question, having regard to what the evidence has been so far.  I

 2     would ask through the Court that counsel not continue to lead anymore.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             Yes, if you could observe that please, Mr. Djurdjic.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That's -- I will, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Please go ahead and explain to us how it is that you came to

 7     retire.

 8        A.   I have already mentioned this, but I will repeat it now.  I held

 9     the position in the co-ordination centre in the south of Serbia, which

10     dealt with the situation in the land security zone that I've mentioned

11     earlier.  I was retired on the 3rd of May without my knowledge; I didn't

12     know that they retired me.  In the evening, after the meetings in the

13     co-ordination centre were over, General Lukic called me to tell me that I

14     had been retired earlier during that day and that I should report to him

15     on the following day to receive the paperwork -- the decision on my

16     retirement.

17             I went to see him.  And up until that time -- up until he called

18     me, I had no idea that I had been retired.  When I arrived in the office,

19     there was a request, my request, addressed to the minister for

20     retirement -- for early retirement, in accordance with the provisions of

21     the law.  That was -- that request was already written, and I simply

22     signed it, given that the decision on my retirement had already been

23     issued.

24             I didn't want to cause any problems.  If the state had decided to

25     retire me, I was willing to accept it.  I signed all the paperwork,

Page 9766

 1     received all the compensation that was due to me, and this is how my work

 2     with the ministry ended.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic, for answering my

 4     questions.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for

 6     enabling me to examine my client in this extent and for this period of

 7     time.  And prior to that, I would like to ask that the last document on

 8     the screen be admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document D008-0511 will be

11     Exhibit D453.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you then, Mr. Djurdjic.

13             When it's convenient, Mr. Stamp.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours, and good

15     afternoon.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

17        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Djordjevic.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   You told us that you got an LLB degree at some point in time.  At

20     what year was that?

21        A.   I graduated in 1971 at the Faculty of Law in Nis.

22        Q.   Now, did that degree make you lawyer?  By that I mean were you

23     then entitled to practice law in Serbia?

24        A.   Following the completion of the law degree, I was given a title

25     of a lawyer; but immediately after that, within a month, I started

Page 9767

 1     working for the Ministry of the Interior, where I worked until my

 2     retirement.

 3        Q.   And I saw from one of the documents that you were shown earlier,

 4     D393, that at some point in time you were chief of inspectorate for

 5     internal control of lawfulness of work.  Do you remember when you were

 6     appointed to that position?

 7        A.   I think that that was in 1990 and that I remained in that

 8     position of the chief of the inspectorate for internal control within the

 9     Ministry of the Interior for about a year.

10        Q.   Now, what did your task or what did your job in that position

11     entail?

12        A.   The person in that position had a duty to establish the

13     lawfulness of actions of members of the ministry and also some units of

14     the ministry, some organisational units of the ministry.  For example, if

15     there was a group within the ministry that acted beyond what the law

16     permits, then it was my duty to look into that and to inform the senior

17     management of the ministry about that.

18        Q.   In other words, your responsibilities at that time involved

19     investigating allegations that members of the ministry had committed

20     crimes?

21        A.   No.  Investigations were conducted by relevant investigative

22     bodies pursuant to criminal reports that had been filed, and

23     independently from any criminal proceedings there were a lot of

24     complaints by citizens that did not relate to crimes committed by members

25     of the ministry but some other inappropriate acts on their behalf.  So I

Page 9768

 1     had to look into that, to respond to the complaining party, and to draft

 2     reports for the ministry.  The entire domain of criminal conduct was

 3     in -- was within the jurisdiction of relevant state bodies --

 4        Q.   I see --

 5        A.   -- any secretariat within the ministry could file criminal

 6     reports if they learned --

 7        Q.   Thanks.  I think you have answered the question.  You weren't

 8     responsible for investigating allegations of crime.

 9             Now, later on, I see from the history, from your personal

10     history, you eventually became the acting chief of the RJB, the public

11     security department.  Can you remind us what year that was?

12        A.   I received the decision, I think, on the 1st of June, 1977

13     [as interpreted], and sometime in January of 1978 [as interpreted] I

14     received a decision for the chief of the public security department.

15        Q.   And I take it that would be 1997 and 1998, not as I see the

16     transcript here saying 1977 and 1978.

17        A.   Yes, in 1997.  And then in 1998 I received this other decree

18     appointing me as the chief of the RJB.

19             MR. STAMP:  Can we have a look at one of the documents relating

20     to that, that is D421.

21        Q.   Here I see you're promoted to the rank of colonel-general of

22     police from lieutenant-general.  Is there a rank --

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, it appears to me that we are

25     not looking at the same document in B/C/S and in the English version.  We

Page 9769

 1     can see that the date in the English version is the 28th of March, 1997,

 2     whereas the Serbian version is from July 1997.  Now, perhaps -- now it's

 3     been changed.  Maybe now it's the correct version.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's okay.

 5             MR. STAMP:

 6        Q.   Well, look on the Serbian version.  If we could scroll down and

 7     look at the date because there might be a mistake in the English copy.

 8     So just tell us the date.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm reminded that when this was tendered the

10     discrepancy of dates was pointed out and there was going to be a correct

11     translation obtained and substituted.

12             It is the date of the heading of the document that is wrong, not

13     the date at the end of it in the English translation.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             Could we just go to the end of the document and get the correct

16     date.  That's page 2 in English document -- or page 4.

17        Q.   6th of July, 1997, you were promoted to colonel-general,

18     Mr. Djordjevic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was there any higher rank that a member of the MUP could attain?

21        A.   No.  In keeping with the regulations in force at the time, that

22     was the highest rank in the police force.

23             MR. STAMP:  And if we could go back to page 2 in the English.

24        Q.   We see that General Stevanovic and General Markovic were promoted

25     to major-general.  Were they always thereafter subordinate to you in rank

Page 9770

 1     in the MUP?

 2        A.   Well, first of all as you've indicated, I don't think

 3     that this is what should be in the English version.  First of all,

 4     it’s Obrad Stevanovic, not Stepanovic, as it says here. 

 5     And secondly, they were promoted to the rank of lieutenant-general. 

 6     Their previous rank had been major-general.  So they were already

 7     major-generals, and they were promoted to the rank of

 8     lieutenant-general.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  And the question is that after that they

10     remained at a lower rank than the one you had while you remained in the

11     MUP?

12        A.   Well, each held the rank for which he was commissioned, and yes,

13     their ranks were below mine.  But...

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15        A.   -– as each advanced, he received...

16        Q.   Who --

17        A.   But that doesn't mean that I was their superior officer because I

18     had a higher rank.  It's a completely different subject.  The fact that I

19     was lieutenant -- that I was a colonel-general didn't mean that I was the

20     superior officer to a lieutenant-general, unlike in the army.  But even

21     in the army, the rank does not guarantee that somebody is, in fact, a

22     superior officer to another person.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at page 17, line 3,

25     in the transcript, we have -- what is stated in the transcript was that

Page 9771

 1     their ranks were subordinate to his, where, in fact, he said that their

 2     ranks were lower than his.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  It is clear from the document that the two named

 4     people, Stevanovic and Markovic, were promoted to the rank of

 5     lieutenant-general at the same time that the accused, who had been a

 6     lieutenant-general, was promoted to the rank of colonel-general.  We are

 7     having a lot of discussion consequent on that getting us nowhere.

 8             I think if we moved on, Mr. Stamp.

 9             MR. STAMP:

10        Q.   Now, who recommended you for promotion to colonel-general?

11        A.   The minister of the interior.

12        Q.   That's Mr. Stojiljkovic at the time?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And who appointed you to head of the RJB?

15        A.   In line with his powers under the law, that was

16     Minister Stojiljkovic.

17        Q.   Now if I could move on to the circumstances of your retirement.

18     You told us that you were pensioned off even before you had met the

19     prerequisites for retirement.  In May 2001 you are saying you had not met

20     the prerequisites for retirement?

21        A.   In the Ministry of the Interior where you had accelerated pension

22     plans, you had to serve for 30 years to get a full pension.  That's 40

23     years of normal pensionable career and then you were entitled to a full

24     pension.  At the time when I retired, I did not meet this prerequisite.

25     You could, however, get early retirement if you met some other

Page 9772

 1     prerequisites, which I did.  So for all intents and purposes, I would

 2     have had to have worked one and a half year to get a full pension;

 3     however, I retired in line with the current regulations.  I was entitled

 4     to a pension and the -- my superiors in the ministry took an opportunity

 5     to retire me, and I was fine with that.

 6             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at 05221.  It's the Prosecution's

 7     65 ter number.

 8        Q.   You signed this request?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you write it?

11        A.   No, I didn't write this.  On the 30th of April I was in

12     Bujanovac, which is 350 kilometres away from Belgrade --

13        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I just asked you if you wrote this or not.  The

14     answer is:  No, you did not.

15             Who wrote it, do you know?

16        A.   I don't know.  When I came to see General Lukic, who was the

17     chief of the department, to receive the decision on my retirement, he

18     gave me this request for signature, for my signature, because this was a

19     prerequisite for me getting the pension.  For the minister to issue his

20     decision, we had to have my request for retirement in the file, in my

21     file.

22        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you're going way beyond the questions that I'm

23     asking you.  Just focus on what I ask you and answer them directly,

24     please.

25             When you signed this, you were aware that you would not be

Page 9773

 1     entitled to a full pension, as you put it?

 2        A.   I knew that.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm objecting to an erroneous

 5     question.  First of all, the question is -- was:  Were you aware that you

 6     were not entitled to a full pension.  We have to deal with the legal

 7     categories that exist here.  We have early retirement under Article 41;

 8     we have the old age --

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, you are in the process of trying to

10     give a legal explanation, which might answer the question put by counsel

11     to the witness.  We're going to get along a lot better and a lot faster

12     if you leave it to the witness to answer.  If you find there is something

13     incomplete or unsatisfactory in the answer, you may deal with it in

14     re-examination.  We cannot get into the habit of you standing and adding

15     some view of your own after the witness has dealt with the question.  If

16     we could observe that, it will enable us to move more quickly.

17             Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Did you -- or did General Lukic tell you who prepared the letter,

20     that is, your letter requested retirement?

21        A.   No, he didn't.

22        Q.   Prior to signing this letter, did you discuss your retirement or

23     your dismissal, as you put it, on more than one occasion with the

24     minister?

25        A.   I never discussed this topic with the minister, and, in fact, I

Page 9774

 1     didn't see him either before or after I received the decision.

 2        Q.   Did Sreten Lukic tell you why you were going to be pensioned off

 3     or dismissed by the minister at a lower pension than you would have been

 4     entitled to?

 5        A.   I've already told you that one day before, the retirement

 6     procedure had already been completed.  I had no idea about it.

 7     Sreten Lukic simply handed me the decision without providing any reasons,

 8     any explanations.  I received the decision --

 9        Q.   Simple question, simple answer.  Did Sreten Lukic tell you why

10     you were being retired?  So you can tell me he did or he did not.  I

11     didn't ask for an explanation.

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did anybody tell you why you were going to be retired after

14     30 years in the MUP?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Did you inquire of anybody who may have participated in that

17     decision with the minister as to why you would be retired after 30 years

18     in the MUP?

19        A.   I didn't inquire because the decision had already been made.

20        Q.   Well, the decision was made, but you said it was necessary for

21     you to sign the request in order to get your pension.  If you did not

22     sign the request, you would have been entitled to appeal the decision,

23     would you not?

24        A.   At the time, the minister represents the state --

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...  Mr. Djordjevic --

Page 9775

 1        A.   Well, I'm listening --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... let's take it step by step.

 3     Would you not have been entitled to appeal the decision to dismiss you

 4     after 30 years, had you not signed the request?

 5        A.   Well, I can't really tell you.  I think I may have been entitled,

 6     but I can't really be sure.  I can't quote the relevant articles.  And

 7     I'm not sure whether I had the right to appeal in such a case or not.  I

 8     can't be sure.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, we have seen and we will see later on many orders

10     you signed transferring people, transferring SUP chiefs from one position

11     to another, in which the orders clearly state that they had a certain

12     amount of days in order to appeal that decision.  I ask you again:

13     Weren't you, a lawyer, after 30 years of service, aware that you would

14     have been entitled to appeal your decision -- or, I'm sorry, appeal the

15     decision to dismiss you?

16        A.   At any rate, I think that I was entitled to appeal.

17        Q.   Of course.  Just about that time in May 2001, the media in Serbia

18     and in the world had started to publish reports on the discovery of

19     hundreds of corpses at Batajnica near Belgrade.  Do you recall that?

20        A.   Yes, I remember that it was the case.  Now, whether Batajnica was

21     mentioned or not, I can't really tell you.  But I know that there were

22     reports for the Danube.

23        Q.   And you know -- you were involved in the disposal of those bodies

24     in some way, did you not?

25        A.   Well, I wasn't involved in the operation to remove the bodies.  I

Page 9776

 1     explained to you my role, and I will also have an opportunity to answer

 2     your questions in this regard.  My task was -- well, we'll discuss this

 3     later.

 4        Q.   Yes, definitely.  When you were retired or dismissed, as you put

 5     it, and you accepted that, you knew not only that --

 6        A.   What --

 7        Q.   -- I'm trying to rephrase the question in a more simple way.  At

 8     the time you retired, 1st of May, 2001, not only was the fact that bodies

 9     had been found at the Danube being circulated in the press in Serbia, but

10     you knew that you had a role in the whole thing, in the whole affair, to

11     conceal the bodies; correct?

12        A.   Yes, I did play a certain role, but I've explained what kind of a

13     role it was.

14        Q.   Very well.  Back to your background.  In 1998 when you were in

15     Kosovo, did you have a radio call-sign?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   During your evidence I think you told us that while you were down

18     there in Kosovo during those operations, everybody had call-signs, all

19     the senior persons had radio call-signs; is that not so?

20        A.   I'll tell you what my call-sign was:  It was Morava 2 or

21     Morava 3.  That was the call-sign for my post.  That was used regularly,

22     in regular work in Belgrade.  I never used it in Kosovo, however, and the

23     officers in command of the units had their own call-signs.  The staff had

24     its call-signs, and those who were directly involved in the performance

25     of certain tasks had their own call-signs.  But in 1998, not only did I

Page 9777

 1     not have a call-sign that was adapted to those circumstances, I didn't

 2     have a radio station at all at my disposal.  I did not have a radio when

 3     I went down there --

 4        Q.   Very well --

 5        A.   -- and I couldn't have had a call-sign.  I didn't have any

 6     need for it.

 7        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             MR. STAMP:

10        Q.   In 1999 your call-sign was -- is it Morava?  Could you tell us

11     what the call-sign was again, please?

12        A.   I believe it was Morava 2 or Morava 3.  I really can't remember.

13     The minister was Morava 1, the RJB chief is the next call-sign in line,

14     and the RDB chief the next.  There were documents specifying the

15     call-signs for all MUP personnel in regular circumstances, in day-to-day

16     business.

17        Q.   So in 1999 your call-sign would be Morava 2?

18        A.   The moment I was appointed the chief of the RJB -- well, the

19     call-sign for the RJB chief was always Morava 2.

20        Q.   So why couldn't you use that in Kosovo if you were down there

21     in 1998?

22        A.   Well, there was no need for me to use the call-sign.  I had other

23     ways to communicate.  But when I was in Kosovo, I never used the

24     call-sign, never ever.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 9778

 1             MR. STAMP:  That last document that I showed to the witness, his

 2     request for retirement, could that be received -- it has been admitted.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received --

 4             MR. STAMP:  Oh, Your Honours, I'm just advised that it was

 5     already admitted as part of the decision on the bar table motion

 6     yesterday or this morning.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 8             MR. STAMP:  So that is, for the record, P1470.

 9             Could we look at 65 ter 06011.

10        Q.   We see here, Mr. Djordjevic, the cover page of the

11     "Official Gazette" for the 9th of June, 1999.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now I'd like to go to page 3 in English.

14             MR. STAMP:  May I just have a moment.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MR. STAMP:  Yes, I understand that two translations were put in

17     e-court.  One, which we are seeing now, is part of the cover page.  Could

18     we look at the second translation in e-court which takes us to a later

19     part of that, of the gazette for that day which is a long document.  And

20     this is a decree on decoration, and it is at page 11 of the gazette.  I

21     don't know if we could find that in the Serbian version.

22        Q.   Is that what you have before you, Mr. Djordjevic?

23        A.   I have these rules, but they do not deal with these issues at

24     all.  I think that this is June and not July -- oh, yes, I see now the

25     presidential decree of the president of the FRY.  That's probably what

Page 9779

 1     it is.

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Could it be enlarged, please, so that I can see it.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Perhaps you can scroll up a little bit more.  Yes.

 5        Q.   This is a decree of the President of the FRY, the

 6     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Mr. Milosevic, of the 9th of July, 1999,

 7     pursuant to the constitution and other laws of the federal republic

 8     awarding decorations for the courage, determination, and discipline

 9     exhibited in discharging security tasks of combatting terrorism in

10     Kosovo and Metohija and in defending the country from aggression, serving

11     as examples to other members -- to other units and police members.  The

12     award of national hero was awarded to the 124th Intervention Brigade.

13             Do you recall that, Mr. Djordjevic?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Where was this brigade operational during the war?

16        A.   The 124th Intervention Brigade of the PJPs comprised members of

17     the police force, of the secretariats of the interior from the territory

18     of Kosovo and Metohija.  And in 1998 and in 1999, this brigade carried

19     out tasks in Kosovo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now I just want you to focus on what I'm asking you.

21     I'm asking you about the period of the war, because that is what the

22     decorations were about.

23             MR. STAMP:  If we turn to the next page in English --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to highlight the

25     issue of the defence of the country from the aggression.  That was the

Page 9780

 1     reason why these decorations and awards were given by the then-president.

 2     So this isn't only about commanding police units and demonstrating

 3     courage in carrying out the tasks aimed at suppressing terrorism in

 4     Kosovo and Metohija but also for the defence of the country against the

 5     aggression.  And the country at the time was the FRY which was attacked,

 6     and it was attacked throughout its territory.  I was responsible for one

 7     part of the territory, and it's probably the reason why my name came up

 8     for this decoration and why I was ultimately awarded this decoration.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You know, Mr. Djordjevic, I did not ask you that.

10     You pre-empted me.

11             You look at the persons awarded the Order of the Yugoslav Flag,

12     First Class, you see your name, the first name, and you also see

13     Lieutenants-General Obrad Stevanovic and Sreten Lukic.  Where were

14     Obrad Stevanovic and Sreten Lukic operational during the war, March to

15     June 1999?

16        A.   Sreten Lukic was head of the MUP staff for suppression of

17     terrorism, and he was located in Pristina.  Obrad Stevanovic, pursuant to

18     the decision of the minister, also went to Kosovo on the first day of the

19     war based on the minister's orders and stayed there throughout most of

20     the time until the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement and until the

21     pull-out of forces was completed.

22        Q.   Look at the persons who received the Order of the Yugoslav Flag,

23     Second Class.  Where were they assigned to during the war?  It starts

24     with Zivaljevic.

25        A.   All of them were commanders of some units of PJPs, all of these

Page 9781

 1     people listed here.  And depending on their rotation periods, they would

 2     spend a certain period of time with their units in Kosovo.  I can explain

 3     each case individually.  Colonel Zivaljevic from the Belgrade SUP was

 4     there in the role of --

 5        Q.   Go on, go on.

 6        A.   He was the commander of a contingent of the Belgrade PJP.

 7     Grekulovic, Srdjan, was also a commander of a detachment.  The same goes

 8     for Radoslav Mitrovic.  And Radislav Stalevic was commander of the

 9     Special Anti-Terrorist Unit in Pristina.  Branko Prljevic was also a

10     commander of a unit in PJP from the territory of Uzice.  Zarko Brakovic,

11     who was a witness here, was the commander of a brigade.  And Buha was a

12     commander of the other contingent of the Belgrade PJP.  And

13     Milorad Lukovic was a commander of the RDB unit for special operations,

14     JSO.

15        Q.   And all of them were active in Kosovo during the war, exhibiting

16     and discharging security duties for combatting terrorism, as the

17     president of the republic put it.  Right?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Look at the persons who received the Order of the Yugoslav Flag,

20     Third Class.

21        A.   Yes, all of them were senior officers within those units of PJPs.

22     I can see Zivko Trajkovic there, who was a commander of a

23     Special Anti-Terrorist Unit of the MUP of Serbia; and Zoran Simovic, who

24     was the commander of the Belgrade contingent of the SAJ.  The rest of

25     them are from PJPs.

Page 9782

 1        Q.   Also exhibiting courage and determination in discharging security

 2     tasks combatting terrorism in Kosovo, all of them; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And we could go on and on and on.  But we have looked at the --

 5     those who received the highest prizes.  You were explaining to me earlier

 6     that the award was also for defending the country.  Were there not other

 7     assistant ministers, like Zekovic - is it Zekovic? - Misic --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   -- who were also engaged in tasks, defending the country, in

10     places outside of Kosovo?

11        A.   This same Order of the Yugoslav Flag, Third Class, is the

12     decoration that Markovic received and another person.  Most likely, at

13     that point in time, the minister proposed them because the role of other

14     assistant ministers wasn't that significant.  They were in charge, and

15     they reported to the minister for the matters that had nothing to do with

16     direct defence of the country.

17        Q.   So you're saying their roles were insignificant, they did not

18     deserve commendations as you did?

19        A.   I'm not saying that they dealt with insignificant matters, no.

20     They worked on matters that were significant for the ministry, but they

21     were not related to the defence of the country.  And in my view, those

22     were the reasons for the minister to draft the proposal with these names.

23     It is possible that they received another kind of a decoration that was

24     appropriate for the roles that they had at that time.  I can't remember

25     whether they were decorated as well.

Page 9783

 1        Q.   Well, I think I mentioned Zekovic and Misic.  I had a note here

 2     for another assistant minister apart from Mr. Markovic, but I can't find

 3     it.  Who was the other assistant minister?

 4        A.   At this time, Nikola Curcic was assistant minister, who was also

 5     director of the institute and deputy chief of the state security

 6     department.  So he was Rade Markovic's deputy.

 7        Q.   I see.  So the minister -- and this is your evidence - the

 8     minister, Mr. Stojiljkovic, in making the recommendation to the president

 9     of the country for persons to receive some of the highest awards the

10     country can give, recommended all these persons who were engaged in

11     combatting terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija for that role, and you were

12     the only person in this list who had no participation in combatting

13     terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija during the war in 1999?

14        A.   The minister wasn't in charge of combatting terrorism, neither

15     was Rade Markovic, and they were decorated, both of them.  But in order

16     for these persons to be proposed for a decoration -- the only person

17     entitled to put their names up was the minister.

18        Q.   And what I'm -- all I've asked you is that of all of the persons

19     we have seen receive the highest awards, Order of National Hero, Order of

20     the Yugoslav Flag, First Class, Second Class, and Third Class, and the

21     Order of Merit for the FRY, Second Class, all of them but you were in

22     Kosovo in 1999; is that what you're saying?

23        A.   Well, I have explained my role already.  Let me just say this:

24     If we were to look at this list in its entirety, you will see that there

25     are also members of various secretariats outside of Kosovo on it too but

Page 9784

 1     they received some lower decorations.  When proposing people for these

 2     awards, the main criteria that the minister used was whether these people

 3     were involved in combatting terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija; and as a

 4     rule they received more decorations.  However, in this list there are

 5     also other people from other areas within Serbia, other SUPs, and they

 6     received some other decorations that were not of such a high level.

 7        Q.   That is what I'm talking about, the people who got the highest

 8     awards.  I suggest to you, Mr. Djordjevic, that the prime minister --

 9     sorry, the President, Milosevic, made these awards to persons who were

10     directly involved in the fight in Kosovo and Metohija, including you, and

11     that you deserved the award because you had overall responsibility for

12     the units in Kosovo and Metohija.  Do you agree with me?

13        A.   This is your construct; that does not correspond to the truth.  I

14     was responsible for the situation in Serbia outside of

15     Kosovo and Metohija, and other people were responsible for the situation

16     in Kosovo and Metohija and engagement of all units in

17     Kosovo and Metohija.

18             MR. STAMP:  Convenient time, Your Honours?

19             JUDGE PARKER:  If that's convenient, Mr. Stamp.

20             MR. STAMP:  Isn't it time?  I was wondering if it was the time.

21     Yes, it is convenient.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  You are over time.  I've been waiting for a

23     suitable break.

24             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the first break now and resume at 20

Page 9785

 1     minutes past 4.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, did you recommend for decorations any of the

 7     persons who received any of the higher awards that we referred to

 8     earlier?

 9        A.   I did not personally --

10        Q.   Very well --

11        A.   -- because there's a system stipulated by the rules.

12        Q.   I see.

13             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could we -- but I tender this document

14     and ask that it be received in evidence and given an exhibit number.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1506.

17             MR. STAMP:

18        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Djordjevic, that Mr. -- or former

19     VJ general, Vasiljevic, came here and testified about a variety of

20     things, including meetings that he had with the president of the

21     republic, President Milosevic; and he said that President Milosevic spoke

22     of you and also of the Minister Stojiljkovic as clearly the persons most

23     responsible or who bear -- to use his words, he said President Milosevic

24     referred to you and to the minister Stojiljkovic as the persons who bear

25     the highest responsibility for the use of the MUP forces in Kosovo.  And

Page 9786

 1     this was in the middle of May 1999 that Mr. Vasiljevic was referring to.

 2             Do you know of any information that would be available --

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, rather than jumping

 5     to my feet and constantly objecting, let me do it now.  If something is

 6     being quoted, could we please have a reference in the transcript to the

 7     verbatim words of Mr. Vasiljevic, because several times already the

 8     formulations of Mr. Stamp do not correspond to what I remember the

 9     evidence to be when he's quoting words of some other witnesses.  So could

10     we please have the reference and see the exact words of Mr. Vasiljevic,

11     and could that be put to the accused.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I think if you could observe that, Mr. Stamp, it

13     would be helpful.  Carry on, please.

14             MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honours.  This is at 5688 of the

15     transcript of the 8th of June, lines 5 to 15, which can be checked, but I

16     won't read them to the witness.

17        Q.   General Vasiljevic said that Mr. Milosevic in mid-May 1999

18     referred to you; Obrad, that's Mr. Obrad Stevanovic; and the

19     Minister Stojiljkovic as, at line 13:

20             "... the persons who bear the highest responsibility for the use

21     of the MUP forces in Kosovo."

22             Do you know what information was available to the president of

23     the republic that would cause him to arrive at a conclusion that you,

24     along with the minister and Assistant Minister Stevanovic, bore the

25     highest responsibility for the use of the MUP forces?

Page 9787

 1        A.   At the outset, let me say that several days prior to that

 2     meeting - which, by the way, I did not attend nor do I know what

 3     transpired there - that after several years in retirement, Vasiljevic

 4     started working again, and then after three or four days of being back to

 5     work, he became an expert for all matters, including the internal

 6     affairs --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   -- so I did not attend this meeting.  I don't know the context in

 9     which this discussion was held --

10        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I'm just asking you to comment on the evidence.

11     What you have said here about Mr. Vasiljevic, he has already testified

12     about how he became involved in this.  Just focus on the question.

13             Do you know what information was available to the president of

14     the republic that could cause him to conclude that you, Mr. Stojiljkovic,

15     and Mr. Stevanovic were the persons who bore the highest responsibility

16     for the use of MUP forces in Kosovo during the war in 1999?

17        A.   I really cannot give comments on the comments and conclusions of

18     Vasiljevic.  He said that I attended the meeting on the 1st of June, but

19     I didn't.  Now, as to what notes he made at that meeting with

20     President Milosevic, I don't know.  I was not present at the meeting; I

21     don't know what the topic of the discussion was.  And it's quite natural

22     that presidents of Yugoslavia and Serbia knew who held what positions,

23     who was chief of which department, and that they knew what their role in

24     general terms was within the state administration system.

25             MR. STAMP:  If we could have a look at P357.  That is the rules

Page 9788

 1     of internal organisation for the MUP.  And if we could find Article 54 in

 2     both the English and the Serbian version.

 3        Q.   It says that the:

 4             "Departments shall be controlled by the chiefs of departments."

 5             Can I take it that according to the rules of internal

 6     organisation of the MUP, the public service department was under these

 7     rules controlled by you, the chief of the department?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   And the rules - I'm just speaking about the rules now - they

10     don't make any distinction between public service department units inside

11     or outside of Kosovo?

12        A.   I don't quite understand your question.  These rules specify the

13     organisation of the RJB and they supply to the entire territory of

14     Serbia.  We already spoke about that.  There were territorial units and

15     those were secretariats, and there was secretariats everywhere, both in

16     Serbia and in Kosovo and everywhere else.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So I ask you now, following from that, are you saying

18     that you as the highest-ranking professional police officer in Serbia, a

19     lawyer, and the chief of the RJB, had no responsibility for MUP units

20     that were operational in Kosovo in 1999?  Are you disowning these units?

21        A.   Yes, that's precisely what I'm trying to say.

22        Q.   You say that ultimately these units in 1999 were not under your

23     direction as chief of the RJB?  Do you say that, sir, as a general, as a

24     colonel-general, that the men in Kosovo who were fighting in 1999, you

25     disown them?  You wash your hands of them?

Page 9789

 1        A.   Well, I'm not washing my hands of anything or anyone.  These

 2     people who were fighting in Kosovo, they continued to be personnel of the

 3     RJB; but pursuant to a decision of the minister, they were seconded to

 4     other structures that planned and exercised command over them in the

 5     performance of various combat tasks.

 6             So these units that were involved in anti-terrorist and combat

 7     actions in 1999, I did not have any power over them.  I did not issue a

 8     single task to them, a task that would have to do with their activities.

 9     Those tasks were entrusted to other people by the minister.

10        Q.   We'll get to the command, the direct command, in Kosovo later on.

11     I just want to be absolutely clear, General, that you are saying that

12     notwithstanding your position under the law, under the rules, and your

13     rank as a general -- a colonel-general, and notwithstanding that it might

14     be that they were commanded in individual operations by persons in

15     Kosovo, you are saying that you have no responsibility for the police who

16     were engaged in the defence of the country and the anti-terrorist

17     operations in Kosovo in 1999?

18        A.   It's not something that I think.  That's how it was --

19        Q.   Very well --

20        A.   -- for sure we will reach some documents that will show that

21     quite clearly.

22        Q.   Do you disown them or disclaim any responsibility for them

23     because you know that they were engaged in massive crimes against

24     humanity in Kosovo in 1999?

25        A.   Could you please ask me one question at a time in order for me to

Page 9790

 1     be able to give you precise answers.  You're using heavy words, and I

 2     can't really grasp their full meaning at this time.

 3        Q.   Do you disown or disclaim responsibility for the MUP personnel in

 4     Kosovo in 1999 because you are aware that they were engaged in massive

 5     war crimes and crimes against humanity at that time?  Is that why you

 6     tell us, General, that you have no responsibility for them?

 7        A.   First of all, let me say that I don't know -- I don't have any

 8     information as to who committed what kind of crime, small- or

 9     large-scale.  I know about the crime in Podujevo.  That's the only crime

10     that I'm aware of.  So I don't know who committed crimes.  I don't have

11     any information to that effect.

12             I'm not disowning those -- the personnel of the RJB that were

13     part of the SAJ or the PJPs at the time who performed some tasks in

14     Kosovo.  I'm not disowning them because they may have committed some

15     crimes.  I'm only saying that pursuant to a decision of the minister

16     their entire operation, their entire activities in that area were under

17     the responsibility of other people who were in turn directly responsible

18     to the minister.  That's what I'm saying.

19        Q.   You discussed earlier in your testimony your presence in

20     Kosovo in 1998, and I think you said that your role down there was as an

21     observer, to represent the minister as an observer.  I'd like to show you

22     what General Lukic, who was the head of the staff down there, said about

23     your role down there and ask you to comment on it.

24             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at 0948 or 00948.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you tell me the reference where

Page 9791

 1     General Lukic said that?

 2             MR. STAMP:

 3        Q.   Yes.  It's coming up.

 4             MR. STAMP:  I think there's a corrected version in e-court.

 5     Perhaps you could try to find that.  Yes, that's it.  Could we look at

 6     page 41.  That is not the correct version, Madam Registrar.

 7        Q.   And while it is coming up, Mr. Djordjevic, was Mr. Stevanovic the

 8     commander of the special unit in Kosovo in 1998?

 9        A.   At the time, he was not.  He was the commander of the PJPs at an

10     earlier time, but at that time he was in Kosovo in his capacity as the

11     assistant minister.  When I was in Kosovo, I was not merely an observer.

12     On the order of the minister, it was my task to get involved and to

13     provide assistance in the activities being carried out down there and to

14     give my contribution to the success of the anti-terrorist activity.  So I

15     was not merely an observer down there.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, first could I observe that there appear

17     to be two quite different documents on the screen.  Could you attend to

18     which it is that you're intending the witness to see.

19             Mr. Djurdjic.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have now come to

21     the area where the interviews provided by suspects are about to be used.

22     Those interviews have already been tender into evidence; but following

23     objections by the Defence, the Chamber did not admit them into evidence.

24     I know that under your decision issued in the course of the Prosecution

25     case questions can be asked about some certain circumstances, but I think

Page 9792

 1     that it is inappropriate for this document to be shown to the witness and

 2     to be actually admitted into evidence in this way.

 3             It's not just one interview.  This is the -- these are interviews

 4     provided by three more suspects, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Pavkovic,

 5     and Mr. Lazarevic, and an interview with Mr. Milutinovic.  And it was

 6     your position in your decision IT-05-87/7 of the 28th of April, 2009, and

 7     you provided your statement of reasons.  I don't think that this is

 8     proper foundation for the use of this document.

 9             Yes, the Prosecution can ask questions about some circumstances,

10     but these documents cannot be used in this way.  I, in particular, object

11     to the admission of those documents.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  At the moment there is no suggestion

13     they be admitted.

14             You, Mr. Stamp, might tell us what it is you are intending to

15     refer to and what use you intend to try to make of them.

16             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, as I indicated earlier, I wish to show

17     him what Mr. Lukic said and ask him to comment on it, whether or not that

18     reflects his memory of what the situation was at that time.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Is this something you say was said by Mr. Lukic

20     when interviewed?

21             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  And was he then interviewed as a suspect?

23             MR. STAMP:  Yes.  This is Mr. Lukic's responses to questions in a

24     suspect interview.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  And has he since given evidence about this subject

Page 9793

 1     matter?

 2             MR. STAMP:  Mr. Lukic?  No, no, he has not.  So at this stage the

 3     situation is merely to inquire of the witness whether or not what

 4     Mr. Lukic said reflects his recollection of the circumstances that

 5     prevailed at that time.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Am I correct in understanding that Mr. Lukic is

 7     not foreshadowed as a Defence witness and you have not called him?

 8             MR. STAMP:  No -- well, we have not called him, and he's not on

 9     the 65 ter list.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, having considered Mr. Djurdjic's

13     objection, the Chamber is of the view that you may properly make some use

14     of this document for the purposes of cross-examination, but that the use

15     you may properly make is a limited one, that is, for example, inviting

16     the witness to read a particular portion and asking for the witness's

17     comment on that portion, being for the witness then to comment if and as

18     he chooses.  And the document itself does not become evidence nor should

19     you take the course of reading into the transcript that part of the

20     document which you want the witness to read.

21             Is that in accordance with your understandings and expectations?

22             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  I would -- I'm obliged to be able

23     to use it, and I'll abide by that.  I just want to know -- perhaps I

24     could get some assistance as to how -- I just want to be sure that he

25     reads the parts that I am -- I want to refer to.

Page 9794

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I think --

 2             MR. STAMP:  It's difficult without --

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  -- you should understand my comment to allow you,

 4     for example, to say, "Look in the middle of the page, the section

 5     commencing in English 'all police units ... ' and ending with 'Chief of

 6     Staff,'" would you read that and should you wish to comment on it.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honours, I'll proceed in that way.

 8        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you see in the middle of the page a section that

 9     commences with:

10             "All police units ..." and ends with "the staff."  Do you see

11     what Mr. Lukic was saying there?

12        A.    "All the forces" -- or rather, "forces, all the police units,

13     including the original, parent, secretariats, had as their primary task

14     curbing terrorism.  The task of the staff was, therefore, to

15     co-ordinate" --

16        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you're reading the thing -- you don't need to

17     read it aloud.  I'm just asking you to look at it, read it, and if you

18     could comment on it, firstly, by telling us whether you agree with it and

19     tell us what you agree with.

20        A.   In what I see here, I see an interpretation of Mr. Lukic of those

21     forces and the role of the staff, and we have seen very specific orders

22     and tasks given to the staff by the minister and the obligations that

23     stemmed from it.  So I think what he's saying here does not really

24     reflect the situation on the ground and the obligations that the staff

25     had vis-à-vis the seconded units, the attached units, and all the other

Page 9795

 1     items that are contained in the decision.

 2        Q.   In other words, you don't agree with Mr. Lukic that there was a

 3     dual responsibility of the special units, both to the commander of the

 4     units and also to the head of staff?

 5        A.   Well, now you're talking about the unit commanders.  I don't know

 6     what commander you have in mind, but, at any rate, there was no dual

 7     responsibility as we can see in what Mr. Lukic is saying, and this is

 8     just his interpretation.  The order issued by the minister specified in

 9     no uncertain terms who exercises control, who exercises command, who

10     plans the tasks.  So really ... I think that this does not correspond to

11     the actual situation on the ground.

12        Q.   Very well.  If you could look at that other section just below

13     that where Mr. Lukic is asked who had primacy.  Just read that and read

14     his answer below that where he refers to you and to Mr. Stevanovic and

15     tell us if that accords with your memory as to the circumstances there in

16     Kosovo as to who had primacy in leading the MUP forces.

17        A.   He is not saying about who has primacy.  He merely says that

18     Obrad Stevanovic and myself were there, but he's not saying who had

19     primacy there.

20        Q.   Well, I think I have to ask you this:  You see he's asked who had

21     primacy, and in response to that question he says that both yourself and

22     Mr. Stevanovic were there with him.

23        A.   Well, that's what I said.  He said that we were there with him,

24     but he didn't say who had primacy.  He didn't answer that question.

25        Q.   Let's move on to the next page and see him elaborating a little

Page 9796

 1     bit further.  You see him continuing with his answer --

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Stamp.

 3             Your Honour, can we be given the page numbers that are shown to

 4     the witness so that we could use it in re-direct because I don't see the

 5     page number here.  I know what the document is, but I can't find the page

 6     itself.  So could we please have the page reference because I -- you know

 7     how many pages we will have here and then it will be difficult for me to

 8     follow in my re-district.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, the page reference is right on the top

10     of the screen, it's page 42 of the exhibit.  And this is an exhibit that

11     was specially corrected --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp -- [B/C/S on English channel] ... be

13     able to read the page number, it would help Mr. Djurdjic, it would help

14     the Chamber, and it would help the record if you indicate what you have

15     not done so far, that the record that you have was that of an interview,

16     where it was given, on such and such a date, the Office of the Prosecutor

17     against General Sreten Lukic, and that you are referring to page so and

18     so of that record.

19             And we would, in due course, have it marked for identification so

20     that it will be possible, both in re-examination and during final address

21     and, if it should become the case, during any appeal for people to

22     identify what it was that the witness was commenting on.  Do you

23     understand?

24             MR. STAMP:  I understand, Your Honour.  I thought -- well -- very

25     well.  I'll proceed in that way.

Page 9797

 1        Q.   This is page 42 of this suspect interview with Mr. Lukic --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Given when and where?

 3             MR. STAMP:  21st of May, 2002, at his office in Belgrade.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 5             MR. STAMP:

 6        Q.   You see here Mr. Lukic continues in an explanation by

 7     saying - and that is in answer to the question who had primacy down

 8     there - he spoke about this.  Do you have any comment on his answer

 9     there?

10        A.   Of course I have a comment.  First of all, he's talking here

11     about hierarchy.  In this specific case, we can discuss hierarchy for at

12     least an hour.  This hierarchy, as he perceives it, had nothing to do

13     with the situation on the ground.  So he is making a total mix-up of

14     everything.  So it was not clear what he wanted here to say.  I

15     completely don't understand what he wanted to say.

16             These are his statements that I, at this point, really cannot

17     make a head or tail of because they are totally beyond the actual

18     situation on the ground, both with respect to his responsibility and the

19     responsibility of General Stevanovic and myself in 1998.

20        Q.   Very well.  I hear you.

21             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, having regard to the last objection,

22     before I would ask this question I would just indicate to the Court what

23     I propose to do.  And this is something which, I recall, has been done by

24     the Defence in their cross-examination.

25             I'm going to read to the witness a sentence from the testimony of

Page 9798

 1     Dusko Adamovic in a previous trial and ask him to comment on that.

 2     Dusko Adamovic was a member of the MUP.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  You've mentioned a previous trial.  Which trial?

 4             MR. STAMP:  That was the trial of Milutinovic et al.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Djurdjic.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this is

 8     not on the Prosecution's list that was provided to us as the list to be

 9     used.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Were it on the list, would you object?

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, had it been on the list, it

12     wouldn't have any objection to it.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues] ... it's

14     something you did, yes.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I know that.

16     But I think that I asked my questions on the basis of these statements

17     and the witnesses responded, but I didn't do it in that way.  However, as

18     it is, it's up to you to decide.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  It often is, Mr. Djurdjic.

20             Mr. Stamp --

21             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  He has objected that it is not on your list.

23             MR. STAMP:  No, it is not on the list.  I propose to do it

24     because I saw that referring to the previous testimony of

25     witnesses - I've seen it in the past - was something that was done in

Page 9799

 1     cross-examination.  I just wish to --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you suggest that you understood it was not

 3     necessary to identify previous testimony on your list for the purposes of

 4     giving notice?

 5             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Your Honours.  I -- and what I merely wish to

 6     do is to read to him one sentence from the testimony of somebody and ask

 7     him if he agrees with it.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I appreciate that, but we're moving on to the -- a

 9     related -- another issue, that is, whether you are required to give

10     notice of this course and whether you have done so.

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I'm going off practice.  I have seen

12     before, in the course of this trial, where statements or documents that

13     persons have given was used in cross-examination and -- but it wasn't

14     tendered.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Were they the subject of notice of use?

16             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  So you're saying you are in all respects doing as

18     Mr. Djurdjic or Mr. Djordjevic did in cross-examination?

19             MR. STAMP:  Yes.  And I -- and not only both of them.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Anything further, Mr. Djurdjic?

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, this

22     notice was required by us to enable us to discuss it with the accused

23     when we had time for that in preparation for re-direct.  The Defence has

24     used information from certain documents and statements, but without using

25     the statement itself.  We just quoted certain circumstances and asked the

Page 9800

 1     witness to comment on the circumstances without citing the provenance.

 2     For example, do you know whether there was any meeting between Mr. Walker

 3     and the Russian defence minister?  And the witness says either yes or no.

 4     Now what we have here is something that we object to due to the fact that

 5     neither the Defence nor the accused received any notice in advance

 6     thereof.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, subject to the sorts of limitations

10     that we have been commenting on earlier and if necessary we will develop

11     them further, you may proceed as you propose.

12             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Do you know what role Dusko Adamovic occupied during the summer

14     offensive in 1998?

15        A.   Yes, he was a member of the staff.

16        Q.   Can you comment on this?  He said that before the map excerpts

17     were distributed to the PJP commanders and before anti-terrorist

18     operations were carried out, there was -- there were meetings with the

19     commanders of the detachments and the chiefs of the SUPs, with -- the

20     assistant ministers, Generals Djordjevic and General Obrad Stevanovic,

21     told the officers about the tasks that they were to follow.

22             Is that a correct representation of what occurred at that time in

23     1998?

24        A.   On the 22nd of July, this meeting was held, the one that I

25     suppose Dusko Adamovic speaks about and the one that he attended.  At

Page 9801

 1     this meeting, we discussed and conveyed the obligations that we had

 2     received on the previous day from the minister, and they referred to how

 3     to comply with the plan of anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo.  And in

 4     that respect, in the broadest sense of the word, the chiefs of SUPs were

 5     informed as well as the detachment commanders of PJPs and the special

 6     unit.  And also present there was - if I'm not mistaken - the special ops

 7     commander from the state security department.

 8             In this meeting, we informed all present about their forthcoming

 9     tasks and obligations with relation to the plan.  So this meeting did

10     take place, you're right.

11        Q.   And were there further meetings, later meetings, because

12     Mr. Adamovic speaks of meetings, where either yourself or

13     General Stevanovic told the officers about the tasks that they were to

14     follow during operations?

15        A.   Yes, there were some meetings.  Some of them I attended, but most

16     of them were attended by Obrad.  The obligations that the staff had were

17     explained by the head of the staff.  We as assistant ministers, if we had

18     any remarks or objections or any additions to make, were contributing to

19     the debate in that way.  Sometimes minister was present there, and he

20     conveyed to General Stevanovic to pass on his orders to the fore.

21     Dusko Adamovic was in all of these meetings.  Therefore, our

22     participation, the two assistants, was not so prominent in that respect

23     when it came to fundamental obligations of the staff.  These fundamental

24     obligations vis-à-vis the units deployed there were on the part of the

25     staff.

Page 9802

 1        Q.   Very well.  Now, you said that you were sometimes out in the

 2     field when operations, more important operations were being conducted,

 3     you were out in the field of commanders.  Is that -- is my memory of what

 4     you said correct?

 5        A.   Well, it's always something in between.  I spoke about lots of

 6     things that were not mentioned there.  I said that my commitment was

 7     pursuant to minister's orders in the field, not only with the commanders

 8     but also with the secretariats and the organisational units of the

 9     secretariats.  So according to the minister's orders, I was more focused

10     on how things were evolving on the field, to provide assistance if

11     necessary, and to provide a secure -- a better cohesion in the

12     performance of these tasks.

13        Q.   One operation or one instance in particular that you've testified

14     about was one which occurred towards the end of September in Decani near

15     Istinic.  And you said a large-scale operation was being carried out in

16     the area of Jablanica and Glodjane.  The action was part of the final

17     operations.  When you say "large-scale," how many troops were involved or

18     how many MUP members were involved in that operation?

19        A.   Well, at this moment, I really cannot say.  I think there must be

20     documents that provided for the total number of troops to be used, but I

21     cannot say anything precisely.  Maybe two or three PJP detachments took

22     place, et cetera, but I really cannot tell you anything more precise than

23     that.

24        Q.   About how many members were in a detachment?

25        A.   I really don't know these exact numbers.  It may have been 500,

Page 9803

 1     but it depended on -- depended on the actual situation.  Maybe the one in

 2     Kosovo was stronger.  I really didn't follow these matter --

 3        Q.   Very well --

 4        A.   -- I don't know their exact numbers really.

 5        Q.   That's fine.  I asked you approximately how many, and that's

 6     fine.  You said that present with you was somebody by the name of Mrksic.

 7     Who was he?  What was his position?

 8        A.   His name was Mircic.  He was the chief of the OUP Decani, that's

 9     the internal affairs organ, and Decani's the area where this operation

10     took place.

11        Q.   And you said that he proposed to you that somebody should go into

12     the villages and talk to the people to see if there -- the situation

13     could be solved in a peaceful way.  And you -- you nod that that's

14     correct?

15        A.   Basically, yes.

16        Q.   And you accepted the proposal?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   And stopped the operation and the matter was resolved and many

19     lives were saved?

20        A.   Well, it wasn't exactly how it happened.  This man proposed to go

21     there and talk to the people there.  He did that.  The barricades were

22     abandoned, there was no resistance to the police, and practically with

23     the cease of the resistance and without any fighting with the police the

24     operation ended.  It wasn't I who stopped the operation.  Since there was

25     no resistance, no shooting at the police, this operation ended because

Page 9804

 1     each and every operation actually had the aim to target the terrorists

 2     and to crush their resistance.  With the active participation of the

 3     chief of the OUP, this armed clash was avoided, and, thereby, the

 4     operation ended.

 5        Q.   I -- tell me if my understanding is correct.  I understood you to

 6     say that the operation was stopped and you waited until 1600 hours to see

 7     if the proposals would be accepted.  That is not correct?  You didn't say

 8     that?

 9        A.   The operation covered a wider area.  Therefore, by the time the

10     information arrived that they would fulfil the promise that they would

11     leave the barricades and not put any resistance to the police, it was

12     close to 1600 hours when the entire operation was finished; however, the

13     units were still there.  They were not close to the Istinic village where

14     there were many civilians.  Later on, it was reported that the barricades

15     had been abandoned, that there was no resistance, as a result of which

16     the units did not proceed any further.  There was no reason for their

17     further engagement.

18        Q.   Did you have inherent authority as a represent of the

19     minister - which is how you describe yourself - to stop or pause the

20     operation?

21        A.   I didn't either stop or pause the operation.  Measures were

22     undertaken to remove from the barricades members of the terrorist

23     organisation, following which there were no further reasons to proceed

24     with the operation because there was no resistance --

25        Q.   Very well --

Page 9805

 1        A.   -- and the entire police action was aimed against terrorists, not

 2     against anybody else.  So it's not as though I was authorised to stop the

 3     operation.  The operation's raison d'etre did not exist any longer.

 4     There was no reason to proceed with it, and this is how it ended.

 5        Q.   I'm not sure you understood the question I asked you.  Did you

 6     recall the question I asked you?

 7        A.   Could you please repeat it.

 8        Q.   Did you have inherent authority as the representative of the

 9     minister to stop or pause the operation?  Either you did or you did not.

10        A.   No, I did not have such authority nor did I use such an

11     authority.

12        Q.   And in respect to the same operation, I think you were shown a

13     document, D429.

14             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at it, please.

15             And before it comes up, could the document pages 41 and 42 of the

16     document with 65 ter number 00948, could those be marked for identity?

17        Q.   You recall that document?

18        A.   Yes --

19        Q.   Sorry, please stop.  Please stop.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, we're moving on from the document that's on

22     the screen, is that intended?

23             MR. STAMP:  Yes.  I went a little bit too fast, but I was asking

24     that the previous document that was on the screen be marked for identity.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  You mean there the record of the interview?

Page 9806

 1             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  I don't propose to ask that the

 2     entire thing, just those two pages that you were shown --

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 4             MR. STAMP:  -- pages 41 and 42.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Pages 41 and 42 of the interview given in 2002,

 6     yes, they will be marked for identification.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, as Exhibit P1507, marked for

 8     identification.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10             Now, the document on the screen at the moment, Mr. Stamp?

11             MR. STAMP:  D429.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I don't understand what is it that

14     we marked for identification.  Haven't we said that those interviews

15     cannot be admitted into evidence?  They cannot even be marked for

16     identification.  The accused can be asked about circumstances surrounding

17     it, but I don't understand what is it that we have just marked for

18     identification.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  What we have marked for identification was those

20     passages which the accused was asked to read in the course of his

21     evidence, so that when it comes to re-examination; when it comes to final

22     addresses; and if it should arise, when it comes to appeal, there will be

23     a record of precisely what it was the witness was commenting on, if that

24     should become an issue.

25             You will recall, Mr. Djurdjic, that a document marked for

Page 9807

 1     identification is not in evidence, it is not part of the evidence, it is

 2     merely a record of something that was used in the hearing.  If it is

 3     admitted into evidence, it becomes then an exhibit and it is part of the

 4     case relevant to your client's guilt or innocence; but marked for

 5     identification is not.  Okay?

 6             Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. STAMP:

10        Q.   Before you, Mr. Djordjevic, is D429.  That is a document dated

11     the 14th of September, 1998, sent by Mr. Lukic.  And he complains that

12     one Anne Delforge, a representative of the international Red Cross from

13     the Belgrade mission, was present and she warned the refugees on several

14     occasions and asked the people present not to return to their homes

15     because it was not safe, thus causing panic insecurity and uncertainty

16     among the residents on whether or not to return.  And your comment about

17     this was that certain organisations, having their own agendas, wanted to

18     prevent the civilians to accept the offer of the police to return.  That

19     was your evidence.

20             Did you meet this lady and find out what her complaints were?

21        A.   I received -- or, rather, I became familiar with this dispatch

22     for the first time here.  It deals with mid-September --

23        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

24        A.   -- before this operation --

25        Q.   I understand that you have a lot that you want to explain, but,

Page 9808

 1     for the time being, just focus on my question.  Either you met the lady

 2     and discussed the complaints that she might have had or you did not meet

 3     her.

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   On what basis did you conclude that certain organisations like

 6     the ICRC had an agenda to prevent civilians accepting the offer of the

 7     police to return?

 8        A.   At that time, I spent several months down there and I was present

 9     in many instances involving other organisations, say the

10     Association of Physicians, in whose vehicles we found weapons that they

11     were distributing to terrorists.  This is what I had in mind when I said

12     that certain humanitarian international organisations abused their

13     position and in some way assisted terrorists or in some other way acted

14     inappropriately.  And it is in that sense that Sreten Lukic wrote this to

15     the minister, describing the conduct of a representative of the

16     Red Cross.  All of us there were familiar, all of us in RJB and RDB were

17     familiar with their conduct in that area.

18        Q.   So when you made the comment about having their agendas to

19     prevent the return of the people, you were referring and you asked about

20     this document.  I take it that you had no information from Ms. Delforge

21     about what or the reasons she may have had to do what she did?  You don't

22     have any basis to say that, what you just said, about the ICRC

23     representative?

24        A.   I gave a comment on this note and the information that was

25     available to the department about her conduct at that particular point in

Page 9809

 1     time.  I personally never met this lady.  I said that I was familiar with

 2     activities of other international organisations that looked benevolently

 3     upon the activities of the terrorist organisations down there in Kosovo.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Shaun Byrnes gave evidence and some of his

 5     evidence, if I might give the reference, is contained in P1214 at

 6     pages 26 to 28.  And he referred to the same operation -- or at least an

 7     operation in September in the same area.  And he said:

 8             "The Serbian police force launched an operation against a number

 9     of villages to the south-east of Pec.  They drove the residents out of

10     the village.  The international press focused particularly on the large

11     number of displaced Albanians.  In response, the MUP sent forces to the

12     area where these people were gathered and effectively herded them home.

13     We complained to General Lukic about the way it was done.  Many of these

14     people were terrified and had no idea what was going to happen to them,

15     particularly if they were being herded onto MUP buses?"

16             In September of 1998 during these operations, were you not aware

17     of these complaints by the international organisations and the

18     international press about the Serb MUP forces forcefully herding

19     civilians home?

20        A.   In your question, you put to me a large piece of information

21     which is not true from the first word.  Shaun Byrnes claims that Serbian

22     security forces started an operation against some villages.  That's not

23     true.  It was never done.  It is true that there were many civilians in

24     the village of Istinic, and both the MUP and the army forces had the duty

25     when coming upon a large number of civilians to return those civilians to

Page 9810

 1     their homes.  And it was done not once but on many occasions.

 2        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, again you don't seem to understand the question.

 3     I was not asking whether or not you agree with the truth or otherwise of

 4     what Mr. Byrnes said.  I was just reminding you of what he said and

 5     asking you, having regard to that and this document you see in front of

 6     you about what the ICRC representative was saying, do you recall that in

 7     September of 1998 there were complaints made in the international press

 8     and by international organisations about your MUP forces herding

 9     terrified civilians back to their home?  And this was done in response to

10     the publicity surrounding the displaced persons.  Were you aware of these

11     complaints then?

12        A.   There were no specific concrete complaints.  I was aware that due

13     to anti-terrorist activities and combat against -- combat against the

14     terrorist forces, that, as a result of that, civilians were leaving their

15     homes and going to areas that they believed were safer or simply

16     following the orders coming from terrorist organisations.  I also am

17     familiar that the international press and some representatives were

18     concerned about the civilians who were in some areas where they believed

19     they would be safer.

20             However, following activities aimed against terrorists and

21     following neutralisation of terrorists, we wanted these civilians to go

22     back to their homes; and to that end we assisted them in returning to

23     their homes and going back to their normal lives as much as possible.

24     There was no mistreatment of civilians in this process.  What was

25     important for us just, just as it was in Istinic, was that these people

Page 9811

 1     could not remain in that other village.  They needed to go back to their

 2     homes.  So I don't see what the problem is.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, weren't MUP forces under your command involved in

 4     forcing civilians home after this -- after their -- sorry, in forcing

 5     refugees home after the international press began to publish stories

 6     about the large number of refugees?  Since I made a mistake, I'll just

 7     rephrase the question and just put it this way:  Weren't MUP forces

 8     involved in forcing civilians home?

 9        A.   Well, I really can't understand what you're saying, to force

10     civilians to go home.  The civilians wanted to go home.  The police

11     forces and the army forces that encountered them in some rugged terrain

12     would talk to them, try to persuade them to go back to their homes

13     because it was safe --

14        Q.   So --

15        A.   -- that they should really lead a normal life.  There was no

16     force involved.  Nobody was forced to go home.

17        Q.   But this is pretty much, Mr. Djordjevic, what Mr. Byrnes and the

18     ICRC representative was saying.  Shall we, therefore, move on then to

19     P886.  Could we look at that document quickly.

20        A.   Let me just say, this document that refers to this lady, whatever

21     her name is, and what Mr. Byrnes was talking about, we're talking about

22     two different events.  One was in mid-September and what Mr. Byrnes is

23     speaking about is what happened in late September, at the end of

24     September.  So these are two unrelated events.  But they refer to more or

25     less the same area.

Page 9812

 1             MR. STAMP:  Could we go to page 73 in English, page 75 in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   These are the meeting notes of the Joint Command.  You were shown

 3     these before.  If you look at the note for the 4th of September, you will

 4     see that you said:

 5             "Return all the inhabitants to the village by force tomorrow ..."

 6             Are you telling us now you don't know about returning them by

 7     force?  But isn't that what you ordered as a member of the Joint Command

 8     because of international press, and isn't that what these international

 9     organisations were complaining about?

10        A.   Well, now you ask me ten questions all wrapped up in one.  First

11     of all, what it says here "return all inhabitants to the village by force

12     tomorrow," I think that Djakovic who kept the minutes here explained what

13     he really meant.  This is just his vision of things -- well, the question

14     is:  What is it that I actually said at the time?  But our demands, our

15     opinions, and our position regarding the civilians was that they should

16     go back to their villages as soon as possible, they were not to remain in

17     the woods.  And whenever civilians were encountered - and I often was in

18     this situation - we -- the civilians were talked to.  And after they were

19     talked to, they would go back to their homes and they were quite pleased

20     about it.  In some cases, they -- the KLA exerted control over them and

21     would not let them go back --

22        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, please focus on my question.  Okay.  You are

23     saying that that is not what you meant.  That's the answer.  That's the

24     answer you want to give.

25        A.   Well, that's not what I said.  That -- or, rather, I didn't say

Page 9813

 1     that I didn't mean it.  First of all, Djakovic noted down what he thought

 2     he had heard.  He gave us his -- it was his spin on the words.  And he

 3     spoke about that.  My interest and the interest of all the people who

 4     were there was for all the villagers that had left their villages to go

 5     back and to lead normal lives.  We didn't want them to be under the

 6     influence of the terrorists.  So this was the gist.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   I didn't issue any orders -- well, I don't know what to say.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, could we look at another passage.

10             MR. STAMP:  Let's go to page 79 in English, which is page 82 in

11     B/C/S, another Joint Command meeting in that time-frame.

12        Q.   Mr. Djakovic recorded you as saying that a company should go to

13     Sedlare sector and force the people to return to their villages another

14     time, another day.

15             MR. STAMP:  Now, we are looking for the meeting, please, of the

16     6th of September, and I think it's page 79 in the B/C/S -- sorry, page 79

17     in the English, page 82 in the B/C/S.

18        A.   Well, first of all, your statement that this was the

19     Joint Command and that some things were being done there --

20        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

21        A.   -- well, it was not the Joint Command --

22        Q.   These are Mr. Djakovic's notes of what he called Joint Command

23     meetings, and he records you to have said one company is to go to

24     Sedlare sector and force the people to return to their villages.

25             Now, Mr. Djordjevic, you told us that you didn't know about

Page 9814

 1     forcing people to return, but isn't this what the

 2     International Commission of the Red Cross and the KVM were complaining

 3     about, your orders to force the people to return in response to the

 4     international publicity?

 5        A.   Well, I have told you that I have some general knowledge of the

 6     opinion that prevailed among the representatives of the international

 7     community and the concern of the international community for the refugees

 8     and displaced persons in light of the terrorist actions in Kosovo.  We

 9     shared their concern for the civilians who had left their homes, and we

10     took measures to make sure that these people would go back to their

11     homes.  And we also had in mind the position of the international

12     community vis-à-vis this problem.

13             When I was in the field, I merely launched an initiative.  The

14     gist was that whenever we encountered civilians in the woods, they should

15     be told to go back.  So this was an initiative on my part on one of the

16     occasions when the information was exchanged.  I thought that this was a

17     good way for the inhabitants of that one village to go back to their

18     homes.  The next day there was another briefing where it was said that

19     the police that had gone to the village -- to that area to bring the

20     villagers back, the villagers told them that the KLA did not allow them

21     to go back to their homes.  So this was the whole event --

22        Q.   Very well --

23        A.   -- the two sides of the same story.

24        Q.   But what Mr. Djakovic records here, you recall that you said

25     that?

Page 9815

 1        A.   Well, I remember that when I look at it.  Not that I actually

 2  remember it now.  I remember the places where I myself was and what I did --

 3        Q.   Very well --

 4        A.   -- but these forces, the police and the army, did not force the

 5     villagers to flee their homes; --

 6        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

 7        A.   –- rather, they wanted to have them return to their homes from

 8     where they had fled.

 9        Q.   -- please just focus on my questions for the present.

10             And you will recall, Mr. Djordjevic - and this is how it appears

11     to me - that you were issuing an order, a directive, as to what should be

12     done?

13        A.   What directive?

14        Q.   When you said what General Djakovic recorded you as having said,

15     that one company is to go to the Sedlare sector and force the people to

16     return to their villages, you were, in fact, Mr. Djordjevic, issuing an

17     order?

18        A.   Not at all.  In light of what I --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

20        A.   I proposed that the issue be dealt with in this way.

21        Q.   Very well.

22        A.   Directive, pish-pash.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, Mr. Stamp?

24             MR. STAMP:  It is, Your Honours, thank you.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at 20 minutes past.

Page 9816

 1                           --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 6.21 p.m.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   When did Mr. Stevanovic cease to command the PJPs?

 6        A.   The minute he was appointed assistant minister.

 7        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Sorry.

10             Could we have a look at P263, please.

11        Q.   While it's coming up, did you have any special responsibilities

12     in respect to the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit?

13        A.   The special unit in 1981 when I was chief of a section within the

14     police administration was directly linked to my section.  So from this

15     time we have had this special relationship, if I may say so, because it

16     was a unit within my administration, both within the police section and

17     within the police administration.  Later on, it became an independent

18     unit, and its use and all other matters came directly under the minister

19     of the interior.

20        Q.   Did the minister of interior -- did he not at any time assign you

21     responsibility for the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit?

22        A.   I don't know in what sense you mean.  This unit was essentially

23     part of public security department.  So just like in relation to all

24     other organisational units within my department, I was responsible in

25     relation to that unit as well.  But as for having any special

Page 9817

 1     responsibilities vis-à-vis that unit, no.  Whenever there was a need in

 2     terms of commanding that unit, they would approach me as chief of the

 3     department, and then I, in turn, would approach the minister whenever

 4     there was a need to ensure equipment, materiel, weaponry, and so on.  So

 5     they would come to me in those cases and if they had any other needs.

 6     And then I, in turn, would go to the minister with a specific request for

 7     the needs of that unit or the needs of any other organisational unit

 8     within my department to ensure that that unit was ready to act as needed.

 9        Q.   Yes.  That was a rather long answer which went beyond the

10     question I asked, but you said something interesting.  That:

11             "Just like in relation to all other organisational units within

12     my department, I was responsible for that unit as well."

13             You agree with me that you were responsible for all other units

14     within the department, apart from the SAJ, in 1999?  And I'm just quoting

15     what you just said.

16        A.   I don't see what's contentious there --

17        Q.   You just said --

18        A.   -- I was chief of the department of public security.  And

19     pursuant to the enactment on organisation of that department, all

20     organisational units within that department came under me.

21        Q.   Right.  And the words you used was "I was responsible for them."

22     You agree with that?  You don't take that back?  You were responsible for

23     them as the head of the unit, as the head of the section?

24        A.   When it comes to regular duties based on the law, I was the head

25     of that department.  And when it comes to regular duties and

Page 9818

 1     tasks, pursuant to that enactment I was their superior.  Later on, there

 2     were certain specific additional circumstances relative to the dispatch

 3     I have here in front of me.  But, fine, it’s a separate issue.  What I’m

 4     saying now pertains to the enactment on organisation and staffing table.

 5        Q.   Very well.  First question I asked you on resumption was - I'm

 6     sorry - what General Stevanovic was in charge -- whether he was in charge

 7     of the PJPs and up until when.  And you said up until he became an

 8     assistant minister.

 9             This document of the 4th of June is by the minister himself.  And

10     you see in the second paragraph it says:

11             "Major-General Zekovic and Major-General Stevanovic were

12     appointed assistant ministers of the interior at a session of the

13     Republic of Serbia government held on the 4th of June."

14             So that is when he ceased to be in charge of the PJP; is that

15     your evidence?

16        A.   Yes, they were appointed at the session of the government, on the

17     4th of June; they were appointed assistant ministers --

18        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I'm just trying to save time.  I -- not that what

19     you're saying is wrong -- I'm -- I just wanted to know of the time.

20             And these were the assignments that the minister made to the

21     assistant ministers.  Who was assigned to traffic, do you know? because I

22     don't see it here.  And I know that the traffic administration is one of

23     the organisational units at the seat of the headquarters, but who was

24     assigned to be in charge of traffic?  Did it come under any of these

25     portfolios?

Page 9819

 1        A.   The minister wrote this and sent it to everybody on the ground.

 2     At that same time, he appointed me acting chief of the department, which

 3     was the first and last time that this happened within the police --

 4        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

 5        A.   -- he also ordered me verbally that I would be responsible for

 6     the traffic police administration.

 7        Q.   That is your answer.  And that's all he assigned you to?

 8        A.   It wasn't a complete answer.

 9        Q.   Is that all he assigned you to?

10        A.   On that occasion, he also ordered me, he also assigned me to

11     co-ordinate the work of all secretariats in the territory of the

12     Republic of Serbia.  These other assistants mentioned here were also

13     tasked by him for some additional matters.

14        Q.   I see.  Didn't he task you orally or otherwise with special

15     responsibility for the SAJ?

16        A.   No.  He didn't assign any responsibility to me vis-à-vis the SAJ.

17     It was an independent unit.  But its functioning was linked to me in the

18     sense everything that related to their functioning before they were

19     ordered to be engaged somewhere.  So in that sense, I was also

20     responsible for the special unit.

21        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, where were you living in 2004?

22        A.   I think in Budva, in Montenegro.

23        Q.   Do you recall that in 2004 or thereabouts you sent off a letter

24     to the publisher or the editor of a newspaper in Serbia - and I might get

25     the pronunciation wrong, but I will try nonetheless - the

Page 9820

 1     "Nedeljni Telegraf"?

 2        A.   Yes, you're right.

 3        Q.   It was -- where did you send that letter from?  Where was it

 4     posted from?

 5        A.   I gave it to a friend, who took it to Moscow and then mailed it

 6     from Moscow to the editor of the "Telegraf."

 7        Q.   Do you have any issues with telling us the name of that friend?

 8     If you don't want to, just say so.

 9        A.   It's unimportant.  I can give you the name, but it's not

10     important.

11        Q.   Do you remember the date you wrote it or the approximate date you

12     wrote the letter?

13        A.   No, I really don't.

14        Q.   The month?

15        A.   I don't know.  Right now I can't remember.  If you look at the

16     date when it was published, then it was perhaps some ten days prior to it

17     that it had reached the editor's office and then it was published.

18        Q.   And in that letter you sought to clarify your position in respect

19     to rumours that were circulating about you in Belgrade?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at 65 ter 06 -- this is another

22     one that was admitted pursuant to the recent order.  It's P1474.

23        Q.   That's the letter?  That's the front page, first page, of the

24     letter?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9821

 1             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at the last page, please.

 2        Q.   And you signed it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Could we go back to the first page of it.  Towards

 5     the bottom in English and also in B/C/S.

 6        Q.   You said -- you were referring to the appointments that the

 7     minister made, and you referred to the administration and portfolios that

 8     the other assistant ministers had been assigned to.  And in the last

 9     bullet point you said:

10             "The minister placed me in charge of the traffic police

11     administration and the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit."

12             Is what you said in this letter true?

13        A.   I said that he tasked me orally for the traffic police

14     administration, and he also tasked me to take care of the anti-terrorist

15     unit so that it would be properly equipped and ready to carry out

16     assignments.  As I have said to you, for a number of years prior to that,

17     that Special Anti-Terrorist Unit was a smaller organisational unit of a

18     larger one, headed by me.

19           So prior to that, for some ten years, that unit was under my direct

20   leadership, unless I'm mistaken.  The oral task that I received in relation

21     to the special unit was simply to ensure all the necessary conditions for

22     that unit to work efficiently.  That meant that if they had any

23     requirements for any needs, they would come to me, and I, in turn, would

24     go to the minister.  As for the use of that unit, it is a separate issue,

25     specially regulated by law.  The minister in addition to that asked me --

Page 9822

 1        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

 2        A.   -- to –- maintain contact with all the chiefs of secretariats.

 3     I was not happy with that, but what can you do.

 4        Q.   -- I'm sorry to interrupt you, I really am, and what you're

 5     saying is quite interesting.  But please focus on my question.  I am

 6     referring you to what you wrote in your letter.  What you wrote is that

 7     the minister placed me in charge --

 8             MR. STAMP:  Excuse me.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any

11     objections, but listening to the interpretation that I'm receiving and

12     looking at the transcript, I would like to ask the accused to speak

13     slower so that the interpreters can keep up and interpret everything that

14     he's saying so that it can be recorded.  That's all I wanted to say.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             Yes, Mr. Stamp.

17             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   It says here:

19             "The minister placed me in charge of the ...

20     Special Anti-Terrorist Unit."

21             Now, you have already agreed with me that you wrote that.  Is

22     that true?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's true.  I did write that, and I explained in

24     some detail how and what obligations I was charged with by him.  So those

25     were tasks relate to the overall readiness of the unit for any future

Page 9823

 1     tasks.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Sometimes the answers of

 3     the witness are not recorded fully because the Prosecution interrupts the

 4     answer -- the interpretation of the answer.

 5             MR. STAMP:  I do apologise.  I'll try to do that only when

 6     absolutely necessary.

 7        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, when did you -- withdrawn.  I'll ask the question

 8     this way:

 9             Did you cease to be in charge of the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit

10     during your tenure in the MUP?

11        A.   From the moment when I was appointed the chief of the public

12     security department -- or, rather, the acting chief up until the end of

13     my tenure there, I was responsible for the special unit and for

14     all the other organisational units within the RJB in the ministry.

15        Q.   Can I just read this answer and tell me if it's recorded

16     correctly.  I'm asking you about the -- well, let me just read the answer

17     first.

18             "From the moment when I was appointed chief of the public

19     security department -- or, rather, the acting chief up until the end of

20     my tenure there, I was responsible for the anti-terrorist unit and for

21     all the other organisational units within the RJB in the ministry."

22             Is that what you just said?

23        A.   Well, that's not what I said.  That was the interpretation.  I

24     didn't say until the end of my career.  I said for as long as I was the

25     chief of the public security department, and that's until sometime in

Page 9824

 1     January 2001, that was the period in which this unit was responsible to

 2     me.  It was connected to me.  I was responsible for that unit and for all

 3     the other units that were part of the public security department.

 4        Q.   Very well.  During 1998 and 1999, did you keep a work notebook or

 5     a diary?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   And you told us what your radio call-sign was in Belgrade.  Can

 8     you just spell it for us, please.

 9        A.   Morava, M-o-r-a-v-a, 2 or maybe 3; I don't recall what number it

10     was.  Morava 2 or Morava 3.

11        Q.   Very well.  I'd like to go quickly into another matter which I

12     need some clarification -- well, which I think you could clarify.  You

13     told us yesterday at page 9721 that when Mr. Golubovic, the SUP chief

14     from Bor, called you and told you that there were bodies or corpses

15     there, you informed the minister of everything that the chief of

16     secretariat told you.  You said, and I will quote:

17             "So immediately upon learning it, I informed the minister

18     about it."

19             Is that true, that when Mr. Golubovic told you about these bodies

20     you informed the minister immediately; or did you give Mr. Golubovic

21     instructions before -- let's -- let me break it down.  These are two

22     questions.  Let me ask you:  Is what I quoted to you, your evidence, is

23     it true?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I didn't issue any orders until the

25     minister was informed; and, later on, I relayed the minister's orders.

Page 9825

 1        Q.   On the 21st of January this year you made a statement to this

 2     Court that -- and I'll read it:

 3             "I first learned of the truck with the bodies from the chief of

 4     the SUP in Bor, not knowing how the truck got to be in the Danube, where

 5     it had come from, or who had organised the transport.  After receiving

 6     this information, I thought that the regular police crime investigation

 7     had to be carried out in accordance with the law, and this is what I

 8     insisted upon in my conversation with the chief of the SUP in Bor."

 9             What you told us in -- on the 21st and 22nd of January is not

10     entirely true, is it?

11        A.   After receiving this information, the initial information, what I

12     received from Caslav, it was an event of such magnitude that I couldn't

13     make any decisions.  I may have said that the crime police should look

14     into what was going on in the field, but I said that he should wait until

15     he hears from me and until I relay to him any order.  So it's possible

16     that at that time a remark was made that the situation should be kept

17     under control and that the crime police should be involved and that

18     detailed instructions would be relayed to him after I get the orders.

19     Because the incident was of such magnitude that I myself could not make

20     any decisions as to what should be done in that case.

21        Q.   You know, I asked you two times whether or not you made any

22     suggestions or statements or orders to Mr. Golubovic before you spoke to

23     the minister and two times you told me no.  You now say that you might

24     have done that.  And is that evidence now true, that you might have said

25     something or given him some suggestion before you spoke to the minister?

Page 9826

 1        A.   No orders, no orders in the sense of what should be done before I

 2     consulted the minister were not issued to him by me.  So I informed the

 3     minister about the incident or the event, and then I relayed his orders,

 4     and I acted in accordance with the orders that I received from the

 5     minister.

 6        Q.   You also said yesterday that you did not know how the people --

 7     how and where these corpses were dug up.  Who told you or how did you

 8     become aware that some of these corpses had been disinterred or dug up?

 9        A.   Please, I said that I didn't know where those people had been

10     killed or whether they had been buried or whether they had been exhumed.

11     I knew nothing about that at all.  I learned about the bodies the moment

12     when the SUP chiefs informed me about it.

13        Q.   Okay.  It might well be a problem with the translation.  I'll

14     read your testimony at 92 -- sorry, 9725 from lines 23 -- from line 23

15     and the following lines.

16             "I had nothing to do with this business, neither did I know how

17     these people died nor where they were buried, where and how they were dug

18     up, and how they were transported."

19             In other words, you were not saying, according to this, that you

20     did not know whether they had been buried and whether they had been dug

21     up; you're saying you did not know where they had been buried and where

22     and how they had been dug up.  Were you told that they had been buried,

23     and were you told that they had been disinterred?

24        A.   I told you that I did not have any information whatsoever as to

25     how they were killed or whether they were buried or exhumed -- I didn't

Page 9827

 1     know anything about that until those bodies showed up and when I received

 2     information from the SUP chiefs.  I never received any information to

 3     that effect.  Had I been aware of it, had anyone reported to me about

 4     that, you would have heard about it here, it would already be here at the

 5     Tribunal.  So I didn't have any information as to what was going on in

 6     Kosovo.

 7        Q.   I was just quoting the record of what I thought you said and

 8     asking about it.  You also said in respect to that matter that the

 9     minister told you upon your inquiry that there were events in

10     Kosovo - I'd like to find the correct quote -- I'm sorry, please hold on.

11     Yes.  Upon your inquiry and your pressing the issue --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Page and line?

13             MR. STAMP:  Sorry.  Thank you, Your Honours.  This is page 9723

14     from about line -- from about line 24 onto the next page.  Very well.

15     Time is going.

16        Q.   You said that:

17             "The minister made it known to me that he was fully behind it

18     that certain incidents had happened down there," and that's in Kosovo,

19     "and that something should be done in order to prevent the revelation of

20     the finding of these bodies because of the NATO campaign and the

21     bombing."

22             Did he not tell you what the incidents were?

23        A.   He didn't mention anything specific.  He just said that those

24     were isolated incidents down there and that in light of what had happened

25     and in light of the fact that the air-strikes were in progress, that he

Page 9828

 1     stood behind this whole activity regarding the emergence of those bodies.

 2        Q.   What does that mean that "he stood behind this whole activity

 3     regarding the emergence of these bodies"?

 4        A.   I wanted to clear this up, to get to the bottom of it, and I

 5     insisted on that.  And I proposed that a group be set up to determine

 6     what had really happened so that we would be fully aware of what was

 7     going on, what had happened.  And when he saw my determination, he simply

 8     cut the story short by saying that he stood behind it and I should not be

 9     concerned with it anymore, but that I should just comply with his orders.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, Mr. Stamp?

11             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours, it is.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn then until tomorrow afternoon

13     at 2.15.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of

16                           December, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.