Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9829

 1                           Wednesday, 9 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  Good afternoon.

 7                           WITNESS:  VLASTIMIR DJORDJEVIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

10        Q.   If I could take you back, Mr. Djordjevic, to the 21st of July,

11     1998.  You said you attended a meeting in Belgrade at

12     President Milosevic's office or at -- somewhere that he kept meetings,

13     and Mr. General Pavkovic presented a plan at that meeting.  Did you see

14     whether or not he had a written plan, apart from the map which you saw?

15        A.   I saw the map clearly as well as the papers that he relied on

16     while speaking.  Now, whether that was a plan or not, I don't know.  I

17     sat across from him, several metres away from him, so I couldn't really

18     see what papers he was relying on to give his report.

19        Q.   Do you know if anyone in the MUP obtained a copy or copies of the

20     five-phase plan?

21        A.   I personally never saw that plan, nor do I know that any of the

22     attendees at that meeting had a copy of that plan.

23        Q.   I'd like to show you a couple of documents.  They're not -- well,

24     you could look at them and I'd just like to have your comment on one or

25     two things.

Page 9830

 1             MR. STAMP:  Could we have P1226, please.

 2        Q.   This is a letter from General Pavkovic, then the head of the

 3     Pristina Corps, the commander of the Pristina Corps, to the 3rd Army

 4     commander.  And here he refers to what the plan envisages, if you look at

 5     the second sentence on the main body of the document.  Were these areas

 6     the -- included in the unblocking operations that were contemplated in

 7     the plan or that you heard him speaking about at the meeting in Belgrade?

 8        A.   On that occasion he spoke in general terms about basic activities

 9     that were to be implemented down there, and the first and most important

10     task at that point in time was unblocking this main road that we have

11     already mentioned.

12        Q.   The Pristina-Pec road?

13        A.   Yes, yes, Pristina-Pec-Komorane-Kijevo-Klina, that's one road,

14     and then the other road was from Pristina via Stimlje to Suva Reka and

15     then on to Prizren.

16             MR. STAMP:  Could we move on to 1227.

17        Q.   And this was phase one, phase two of the five-phase plan he's

18     referring to here?  We -- just orient yourself quickly.  This is another,

19     without going to the next page, it's another dispatch from General

20     Pavkovic to the third commander -- to the 3rd Army commander.  And just

21     focus, if you can, on the first sentence of the document which refers to

22     implementing or implementation of the second stage of the plan and then

23     to item 2.  I think in your last answer this is what you referred to, the

24     unblocking of the Dulje-Suva Reka-Stimlje road.

25        A.   And your question is?

Page 9831

 1        Q.   These were the -- you are familiar with these areas?  These were

 2     the plans that were contemplated by -- or -- by General Pavkovic --

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And you see in item 3 -- and if you see in item 3, as in the

 5     previous document, he refers to this global plan as being the outcome of

 6     the order of President Milosevic, the president of the Federal Republic

 7     of Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   That's not how it was.  The plan stemmed from the order of the

 9     Supreme Defence Council, which had a session some ten days prior to that.

10     And the plan envisaged anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo in several

11     phases.  Here you can see quite clearly that the commander of the

12     Pristina Corps requests from the army commander permission to act in

13     accordance with the global plan that had already been adopted, to develop

14     it further, and to envisage the forces and the area where there would be

15     further activities.  So this has to do with the development of

16     lower-level documents stemming from the plan.  So the commander of the

17     Pristina Corps asked for permission from the army commander, and upon

18     receiving that permission these lower-level documents would be further

19     developed concerning specific actions to be undertaken in a specific

20     area.

21        Q.   Yes, thank you.  What I really wanted to focus on is -- without

22     going back to the previous document, I'll just read the part that I

23     referred to.  He said at the meeting of the president of the FRY held at

24     his office on the 21st of July, 1998, an order was given to implement the

25     plan for combatting terrorist forces.  And in this document which you

Page 9832

 1     have, you see -- where are you?

 2             MR. STAMP:  If you could go back, please, to the first page of

 3     this document, item 3 -- oh, item 3 in B/C/S is on the second page.

 4        Q.   If you read item 3 in English you see it says that:

 5             "This engagement of the most minimal force of the PrK," that's

 6     the Pristina Corps, "ensures good support of the MUP units and the

 7     energetic and quick conduct of tasks in the spirit of the order of the

 8     president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

 9             All I'm asking here -- you know, you see that he is referring in

10     these two documents to the same plans that you discussed the previous

11     day, of unblocking these roads.  Didn't the order come from

12     President Milosevic to proceed?  This is what Pavkovic seems to be

13     saying -- or General Pavkovic seems to be saying in these two documents.

14        A.   Well, in all of these documents that we are looking at now, in

15     Pavkovic's letter and in addressing the commander of his 3rd Army, it

16     clearly says that pursuant to the general plan adopted by the president

17     of the FRY, that plan needs to be implemented now.  And he asks his

18     commander for a permission to make that plan operational; that is to say,

19     to develop further lower-level documents based on which that plan can be

20     implemented.  So it's not contentious at all that they're working

21     pursuant to this general plan.

22        Q.   I just wanted to know if seeing these two documents from

23     General Pavkovic, if you agree or you're aware that President Milosevic

24     ordered that you officials in Kosovo proceed with the plan.  In both of

25     the documents General Pavkovic refers to the order of President Milosevic

Page 9833

 1     to proceed.  Is that your awareness, that he ordered you to proceed?

 2        A.   That who ordered that?

 3        Q.   General Milosevic -- sorry, the FRY President Milosevic.

 4        A.   Let me tell you this:  In Milosevic's office the global plan was

 5     adopted, and at that point in time it was said, "Now it's up to you to

 6     start implementing this."  This was all that was said in Milosevic's

 7     office.  And based on that plan there were all these activities within

 8     the corps, in the 3rd Army, and with police forces.  So it wasn't like

 9     Milosevic issued specific tasks during certain phases, no.  At that point

10     in time the plan was adopted and it was said that police and military

11     forces would be tasked with working together in order to combat terrorist

12     activities in Kosovo and in accordance with the plan that had been

13     adopted.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, since I can't get an answer, can I put it this way:

15     Did President Milosevic adopt the plan and was he the person who said,

16     "Now it is up to you to start implementing this"?

17        A.   Yes, that's how it was.  The plan was definitely adopted by him.

18        Q.   Did you at that meeting hear him or anyone make reference to the

19     setting up of a Joint Command involving political representatives along

20     with the senior leadership of the MUP and the VJ?

21        A.   Neither from him nor from anybody else at that meeting did I hear

22     that some Joint Command would be set up, nor did I hear anything

23     concerning any Joint Command.  All that was said was that this plan would

24     have to be implemented together by army and MUP forces and that certain

25     politicians would be visiting the area with their tasks.

Page 9834

 1             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at P1245, please.

 2        Q.   This is a document from the Federal Ministry of Justice of the

 3     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of the 12th of July, 2002, and it is in

 4     response to some questions put to it by the representatives of this

 5     Tribunal.  And in the first bullet point you'll see that they say:

 6             "The Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija was formed on the

 7     order by the FRY President in June 1998 without any specific document."

 8             Do you have any reason to contest the truth of this statement?

 9     Can you say that this is not true, that he formed the Joint Command in

10     June 1998?

11        A.   I did not attend any meetings where Joint Command was

12     established.  This document here says June 1998, and my opinion is that

13     this is not correct, that what is written here is not correct; that is my

14     personal opinion, based on what was done later on in the territory of

15     Kosovo and Metohija.

16        Q.   Well, you see it also says that the work was terminated in late

17     1998, the work of the Joint Command.  Is that your understanding or could

18     you commend on that?

19        A.   As I have said, this document is totally new to me.  And in my

20     view, what is described here is not true, does not correspond to the

21     truth of what was happening in Kosovo during these anti-terrorist

22     activities.  In my view, there was no Joint Command, not at all.  Now,

23     who wrote this here and for what reasons, I couldn't speculate.  I know

24     that no Joint Command existed down there nor am I familiar with any

25     activities of that Joint Command.

Page 9835

 1        Q.   So you would not be able to tell us whether or not the

 2     Joint Command did in fact continue to operate in 1999?

 3        A.   It didn't operate in 1998 either.  Now, do you really wish me to

 4     speculate about this?  I can tell you what we did at the meetings and

 5     what co-ordination work we conducted in situations where I attended

 6     meetings and so on.  Now, as to Joint Command, how it was established, I

 7     really don't know.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Djordjevic

10     answered Mr. Stamp's questions three times before Mr. Stamp, in his

11     following question, drew a totally opposite conclusion.  I don't think

12     that that's permissible.  If the accused said three times that the

13     Joint Command did not exist and that he didn't know about this document

14     from 1998 and he believed it to be untrue, then how could the next

15     question be formulated claiming that the Joint Command existed and that

16     it existed in 1998 and so on?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  I don't read the passage of questions the way you

18     do, Mr. Djurdjic.  I don't think there's any basis for interfering with

19     the cross-examination at the moment.

20             Carry on, Mr. Stamp.

21             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   You have referred us to the meetings and what you did at the

23     meetings.  Perhaps we could look at that.

24             MR. STAMP:  With the leave of the Court could the witness be

25     handed a copy in B/C/S of P886, that is the notes of the meeting of the

Page 9836

 1     Joint Command, because we'll be moving from place to place in that

 2     document and it might be more convenient if he had a copy.  May I,

 3     Your Honours?

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 6             Can we look at P -- sorry, page 140 to 142 in e-court.

 7        Q.   And, Mr. Djordjevic, for you this is the meeting of the 28th of

 8     October.  Let's look at page 140 in English first.

 9             Just to orient ourselves, you see that this -- at this meeting

10     Mr. Minic opened the meeting.  And can you make out from your copy that

11     you were present at this meeting?

12        A.   No, I did not attend the meeting.

13        Q.   Are you on the 28th of October?

14        A.   I concluded my activities in Kosovo on the 5th or 6th October,

15     1998, when the implementation of the global plan was completed.  And from

16     that point on I had nothing to do with any activities in Kosovo and

17     Metohija, nor was I present there.

18             MR. STAMP:  Can we scroll down to the bottom of page 140 on the

19     English version, please.

20        Q.   If you look on your version in B/C/S, Mr. Djordjevic, do you see

21     that after Mr. Gajic speaks you are recorded to have spoken?

22        A.   No.  I wasn't there then.

23        Q.   Do you see a reference to you speaking?

24        A.   Yes, it says "Gen Djordjevic" here.  Can we -- I can't read this.

25        Q.   It records you saying here:

Page 9837

 1             "Following the pull-out of police units, I believe they will

 2     become more self-disciplined and behave more correctly."

 3             You were speaking about the implementation of the October

 4     Agreements, which required police units to withdraw -- some police units

 5     to withdraw.  And if you continue on, Mr. Djordjevic, you'll see that

 6     General Lukic spoke after that and then you spoke again according to

 7     these minutes.  And this is page 141 now in the English.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Could we move on to page --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't remember attending

10     this meeting.  I know that after the signing of the agreement, pursuant

11     to the order of the minister, General Stevanovic went to Kosovo and he

12     informed of the obligations that police units had in relation to the

13     agreement, but I really do not remember this meeting.

14             MR. STAMP:

15        Q.   And the second entry you are quoted as being suggesting -- or

16     asking:

17             "Can we submit information about the DTS," I think that's an

18     acronym for the terrorist, "attacks on members of the MUP and the VJ to

19     Mr. Sean of the CSCE," I think that should be Mr. Shaun Byrnes of the

20     OSCE.

21             Can you remember ever expressing a view that the attacks that

22     were continuing in October should be submitted or information on the

23     attacks should be submitted to Mr. Byrnes?

24        A.   No, I really don't remember this meeting at all.  As I've said,

25     my involvement in Kosovo ended once the global plan was implemented, and

Page 9838

 1     from that time on I did not take part in any of the meetings, in

 2     particular meetings of this kind.

 3        Q.   Did you go to October in -- did you go to Kosovo at all in

 4     October?

 5        A.   In the second half of October I took part in the signing of the

 6     agreements.  I also had some family problems.  My father had died.  And I

 7     really cannot recall having been there or -- in fact, I didn't have any

 8     other obligations, or I did not receive any orders from the minister to

 9     go down there and to do anything.  So it's really completely unclear to

10     me.  The first time that I went back down there was when

11     President Milutinovic was there, and then on the 15th of January, and

12     then in 1999.  That was the first time that I went back there.  I don't

13     remember this meeting at all.

14        Q.   Very well.  If we look at page 142 in English and for your copy

15     it's the last entry for that day, the 28th of October.  Mr. Minic said

16     that you should have a thorough discussion on how to work with the OSCE

17     or the CSCE.  And in the next sentence he goes on to say:

18             "I think that this command should remain unchanged and work until

19     the end of the year, meeting when necessary."

20             Wasn't Mr. Minic referring to the Joint Command, the command that

21     existed which -- involving the meeting of the senior members of the MUP

22     and the politicians, including yourself?

23        A.   Now, who thought what, who said what, I can't really say that

24     myself.  Quite a lot of people spoke here, people who used that term,

25     people who used it in their communication with other people.  But I, as

Page 9839

 1     far as any participation is concerned, I can't recall this meeting.  The

 2     next time when I was in Kosovo was when President Milutinovic was there.

 3     I accompanied him.  And then I went back to Kosovo on the 15th of January

 4     when the Serbian prime minister visited Kosovo, and there were two or

 5     three other meetings down there during the war.  And that sums up -- this

 6     is the sum total of my visits to Kosovo.

 7        Q.   Generally speaking during the course of 1998 when you attended

 8     these meetings, weren't -- wasn't it Mr. Minic or, if he wasn't there,

 9     Mr. Sainovic who led the meetings, who was the leader of this group of

10     participants in these meetings?

11        A.   Well, it's not a group of participants.  We have representatives

12     of the army, of the police, and some politicians who had some tasks down

13     there, who got together.  Those meetings were usually opened by

14     politicians.  They would present opening remarks.  That's how it was

15     usually done.  And then everybody would deal with issues in their line of

16     work.  They would brief the other participants about the most salient

17     facts, and that's how it was done.  The politicians, the military men,

18     and the policemen would all inform the other participants about their

19     line of work.

20        Q.   I think you would agree with me that Mr. Minic and Mr. Sainovic

21     were the most senior persons from the state governing apparatus of Serbia

22     and the FRY who attended those meetings?

23        A.   Yes, the highest-ranking persons as far as I know.

24        Q.   If we look at the document you have, that's the minutes, if you

25     look at the first meeting - and this is page 2 in English, you see the

Page 9840

 1     participants?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Opened by the Assembly president, Mr. Minic.  And after various

 4     persons had made their contributions, if you could look at the end of the

 5     notes for that day.  And in English this is page 4.  You see what is

 6     described here as conclusions of Mr. Minic, and he says, among other

 7     things:

 8             "Training must continue.

 9             "Carry out inspections."

10             And that was the normal format of the meetings of -- of

11     high-level administrative bodies in Serbia.  I think you mentioned that

12     was the format of the MUP collegium minutes -- MUP collegium meetings.

13     You met, everybody said what they had to say, and the leader at the end

14     would give his conclusions, in which he would give out instructions.

15     Isn't it the same thing Mr. Minic is doing in giving the conclusions?

16     He's giving instructions based on what he heard at the meeting?

17        A.   Well, of course not.  Minic listened to what all the participants

18     in the meeting had to say, and then he presented his own view.  And I can

19     say with full certainty that Minic could not have issued any orders to

20     the police forces in Kosovo.  And from all the documents, we have been

21     able to see that all the orders that pertain to the drafting of documents

22     were done by the Pristina Corps commander on the orders of his superior

23     command, that's the 3rd Army command; and it says here in item 3

24     elaborating further tasks, General Pavkovic.  Well, he's the one who

25     actually kept the notes.  That was his impression of what was going on.

Page 9841

 1             For me, the most important thing is that at this meeting Pavkovic

 2     says that the following action should be carried out in accordance with

 3     the general plan, and in order to prepare those documents he informed the

 4     police structures as to what axes would be done in the days that followed

 5     and what the MUP staff for the prevention of terrorism could see on the

 6     basis of this plan in terms of what forces would be needed for the

 7     involvement.  And through its representative in the planning process, he

 8     would give his input for the drafting of the plans.  And that's how it

 9     was done.

10             The order to carry out tasks contained in the general plan were

11     done by the Pristina Corps, with the input from the MUP staff for the

12     prevention of terrorism.  So the MUP staff had its own institutions, so

13     to speak, that functioned 24 hours a day.  The Pristina Corps had its

14     command and its superior commands that were also working

15     around-the-clock.  So this meeting here took one hour, one hour, 15, one

16     hour, 45 - the meetings of this kind took that long more or less - and

17     after that the people would go back to their jobs.  And then the next day

18     or a couple of days later we would again all gather together, we would

19     exchange information and so on and so forth.

20             So everybody had their own command and at those meetings we

21     simply exchanged information --

22        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, much of what you just said, again you have said

23     it before.  I didn't ask you for this information.  I'm trying to move

24     through quickly.  Just, please, focus on what I ask and give direct

25     answers which -- and on that can I move on to another and ask you to just

Page 9842

 1     focus on the question.  If we look at page 15 of this document in

 2     English.  For you, sir, it's the meeting of the 27th of July, 1998.  You

 3     see Mr. Minic, who is the Assembly president, says to:

 4             "Continue the plan at 0700 hours as agreed."

 5             Do you have it there?  Yes.  And if we look at another example of

 6     the 10th of September, 1998, that's at page 84 in English.  If you could

 7     find the 10th of September, 1998.

 8             You see Mr. Minic is reported here to be saying:

 9             "Go into Dubrovnik and Radovic villages and see what the

10     situation is like ...

11             "Go into Papracani village and have the police occupy it."

12             There's a VJ to do that and have the police occupy it.

13             Later on:

14             "Go into all villages and pressure them into handing over

15     weapons.

16             "Secure the road and control the territory.

17             "The army will adopt a plan on arrangement of the territory on

18     Monday.

19             "The MUP should do the same ..."

20             And this document is replete with situations like that.  Look at

21     it and look at the statements by the other participants at this meeting,

22     and you will see the language here is in the nature of reporting.  They

23     are reporting and he is commanding.  Can you see that, that on the face

24     of this document ...

25        A.   Well, according to what it says there, I wasn't there.  But

Page 9843

 1     regardless of whether I was present or not, I in general terms said what

 2     should be done and how.  So Minic and other politicians just listened to

 3     the reports from other people, and they heard what the Pristina Corps had

 4     planned and what the Pristina Corps and the MUP staff had actually

 5     implemented.  So he listened to that and he simply repeated what had been

 6     done in terms of concerted action by the police and the army or what they

 7     had planned to do on that day.

 8             So the Pristina Corps and the MUP forces did not wait for this

 9     order by Minic.  It was not an order at all.  I don't know.  The army and

10     the police forces did not wait for him to issue an order before they

11     launched an action.  They had an obligation to work in accordance with

12     the general plan and with the documents drafted by the Pristina Corps.

13     And they simply reported as to how far they had gone in terms of the

14     implementation so that the army forces and the MUP staff and the Pristina

15     Corps command would be kept fully briefed in the course of the

16     implementation of the tasks in here.

17             I don't consider this to be an order.  If he had not ordered this

18     to the army and to the police, that would mean that the army and the

19     police would not do that; and quite the contrary was true.  They had

20     their own plans, their own orders, and they acted in accordance with

21     that.  This was just an exchange of information.  At those meetings I

22     never saw any maps or plans that were debated --

23        Q.   Yes, yes --

24        A.   -- and then that some decisions were made.  This was not done.

25        Q.   I think you told us before that the maps and the planning at the

Page 9844

 1     operational level was done by the Pristina Corps.  But what I'm

 2     suggesting to you is that it was done on the basis of the Joint Command

 3     decisions led by Mr. Minic and Mr. Sainovic.

 4             May I give you a couple of examples but this time with

 5     Mr. Sainovic.  If you look at page 108 in the English copy, it's the 22nd

 6     of September.  Now, of course Mr. Sainovic, if you look at that, you

 7     could see that he listened to everybody including yourself.  And he says,

 8     among other things - this is his first comment at this meeting of the

 9     22nd of September - and at the bottom of the page in English he says.

10             "Regroup forces (transfer two PJP companies).

11             "Continue the operation tomorrow."

12             If we go to page 109 in English, and Mr. Djordjevic, it's the

13     next entry or the next record of Mr. Sainovic speaking, he says:

14             "When the operation ends, we must then engage the intervention

15     unit to surround the village where the terrorists are."

16             These sound to be instructions given on the basis of what has

17     been said to him by the police and military leadership, Mr. Djordjevic.

18     Why would Mr. Sainovic, who is the vice prime minister or the vice

19     president of the FRY, be making these statements or issuing these

20     directions in respect to police and military activity?

21        A.   My response is the same as the one that regards Minic.  His

22     thoughts or his initiatives or his proposals as far as the army and the

23     staff MUP are concerned were not tantamount to orders.  The army and the

24     police received orders from others, not from Sainovic, Zoran Andjelkovic,

25     or Minic, who were there.

Page 9845

 1        Q.   I think you said Mr. Sainovic had responsibility for foreign

 2     affairs.  Is that your recollection?

 3        A.   No, I never said he was responsible for foreign affairs.

 4        Q.   Do you know what his --

 5        A.   Sainovic was responsible for communication with the foreign

 6     representatives in Kosovo, and he was also the chairman of the Federal

 7     Commission for Co-operation with the OSCE.

 8        Q.   So his role at these meetings, I think, what he could offer, if

 9     those were his sole functions down in Kosovo was briefings and what was

10     transpiring in his contacts with these representatives of foreign

11     organisations, not so?

12        A.   As far as I can recall, all of those politicians who were down

13     there had their specific purviews.  Minister Matkovic was in charge of

14     the economic situation in Kosovo; that was his sphere of responsibility.

15     Milomir Minic primarily dealt with the social and political structures in

16     Kosovo.  Sainovic was primarily obliged to deal with the international

17     structures down there, to communicate with them.  And Zoran Andjelkovic,

18     as the president of the Provisional Executive Council in Kosovo and

19     Metohija, was more concerned with the general issues of public

20     administration in that area, in Kosovo.  So they were not commanders.

21     They did not exercise command over the army or the police.

22        Q.   Well, if you could go to the meeting on the 26th of September.

23             MR. STAMP:  And this is English at page 112.

24        Q.   Similarly, you see the military represented by General Pavkovic.

25     If you read it you'll see it is basically in the nature of reporting.

Page 9846

 1     General Lukic then speaks, and it is generally telling about what

 2     happened in the past.  Both of them are usually speaking in the past

 3     tense.  You see then Mr. Sainovic closes the meeting, and he uses -- he's

 4     recorded as speaking about what you should do, he who is supposedly

 5     responsible for communication with overseas representatives, speaks to

 6     the leadership of the police and the army in this way.  Wasn't it

 7     Mr. Milosevic who authorised him and Mr. Minic to speak to the leadership

 8     of the police and the army in that way, to give them instructions?

 9        A.   I don't know about that order.  I don't know whether Milosevic

10     ordered anything to them.  I know about the obligations that the staff

11     had down there, the obligations related to anti-terrorist activities, and

12     the politicians who were present there were entitled to comment on what

13     the people attending the meeting briefed each other, what the

14     representatives of the army and the police said to each other by way of

15     exchanging information.  Other than that, they did their job in

16     accordance with the plans and not in accordance with any orders that

17     Sainovic or Minic or anybody else might have issued to them.  They could

18     comment.  They could say that perhaps something should be done

19     differently in their line of work, but they were not issuing orders, not

20     at all.

21        Q.   Well, you will agree with me here at least that Mr. Sainovic here

22     was not speaking about anything in his line of work, foreign affairs?

23        A.   Well, it's possible that there were no activities within his

24     sphere of activity, so that's how it was -- so he talked about this.

25        Q.   During the period when the five-stage plan was being implemented,

Page 9847

 1     would you -- or how frequently did you attend these meetings?

 2        A.   When I was in Pristina, I usually attended those meetings.  I

 3     didn't attend them when I was absent, but as a general rule I was

 4     present.

 5        Q.   If you could look at the meeting of the 12th of August, 1998.

 6             MR. STAMP:  This is page 41 in English or in English the meeting

 7     begins at page 39, but if we could just move straight to page 41.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, what date are we talking

 9     about?

10             MR. STAMP:

11        Q.   The 12th of August, 1998.  General Pavkovic -- I think since it's

12     a fairly long meeting I should tell you there, it's the second time that

13     General Pavkovic intervenes.  He speaks about -- he speaks that

14     operations should continue at Slup, Voksa, and Dulje.  And you also

15     intervened to say to:

16             "Do Voksa and Slup and engage the army."

17             And Mr. Minic, as he's warned to do, closed the meeting by

18     saying:

19             "Proceed further with the process on these three points:  Slup,

20     Voksa, and Lodja and prepare them."

21             Do you recall this meeting?  That can be answered yes or no.

22        A.   Right now after so many years, I naturally do not remember this

23     meeting.  I remember that there were activities in this area, but now to

24     ask me to remember that the meeting was held on the 12th and that

25     somebody drew conclusions and wrote down something, I really couldn't do

Page 9848

 1     that.  I could just give you comments on what I had read here --

 2        Q.   Very well, you have answered my question --

 3        A.   -- I suppose that the meeting was held --

 4        Q.   If we could look at the next day, the 13th of August.

 5             MR. STAMP:  English page 44 [sic].

 6        Q.   You will see Mr. Pavkovic.  Maybe I could help you if you can't

 7     find it.  I think this is the second intervention by Mr. Pavkovic, near

 8     the end before Mr. Minic gives his conclusions.  Mr. Pavkovic said that

 9     the Slup and Voksa action would begin with the 8th Detachment and that

10     the Chief of Staff will lead the action in accordance with the -- well,

11     let's say the suggestion by Mr. Minic in the previous meeting.  I just

12     want to point that out to you and ask you if you recall that.

13        A.   Here at the top it says that I wasn't present that day, and also

14     what is quite typical is that Mr. Stanisic was present, he was there for

15     a couple of days --

16        Q.   Very well, never mind, never mind.

17        A.   -- and he would always come to these meetings where he had things

18     to say.

19        Q.   We're not interested in Mr. Stanisic.  Mr. Stanisic is not the

20     issue.  It's your presence and you're quite correct.

21             So we have traced the development of that operation.  I'd like

22     now first to look at P1232.

23             You see that this is an order from the Pristina Corps command

24     dated the 14th of August, 1998.  You see that?

25        A.   Yes, yes, I do.  Actually, this is the first time that I see a

Page 9849

 1     decision of this sort.  I have never seen anything like this up till now.

 2        Q.   In your preparations for your defence, and even in the course of

 3     this trial, you haven't seen any Pristina Corps order like this?  Is that

 4     what you are saying?

 5        A.   What I want to say is that I saw for the first time decisions of

 6     this kind here --

 7        Q.   Okay --

 8        A.   -- during preparations, after my arrival in The Hague.

 9        Q.   Okay.  This decision is on breaking up the terrorist forces in

10     Slup and Voksa.  And if we could move to the -- to page 3 in English,

11     which is the last page in B/C/S -- well, let's move to page 4 in English

12     first.  You see it's signed by Chief of Staff, Colonel Lazarevic, as he

13     then was.  Last page in B/C/S.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And if we could remain there in B/C/S but go to the previous page

16     in English -- no, no, remain there in B/C/S but go to the previous page

17     in English.  So please -- thank you.  Thank you very much.  And we are

18     looking at item 6 at the bottom, and can you also look at item 6.  The

19     order that:

20             "Combat operations will be commanded by the Joint Command for

21     Kosovo and Metohija with the PrK forward command post in Djakovica."

22             Isn't that how the system worked?  I think you said earlier that

23     plans would be drafted by the Pristina Corps professional staff and

24     issued to the various people, the various units, that would participate?

25        A.   Yes.  At this period of time, in August, Chief of Staff of the

Page 9850

 1     Pristina Corps was Colonel Lazarevic, who was at that time permanently

 2     stationed at the forward command post of the Pristina Corps in Djakovica.

 3     He did not come to Pristina -- at least I didn't see him there.  He was

 4     in Djakovica the entire time at the forward command post, and his main

 5     activities had to do with the protection of the border.  These villages

 6     and these areas described here are close to the border.

 7             Now, as to why he formulated it in this way here, I really

 8     couldn't tell.  I don't know what he means when he says that the combat

 9     operations will be commanded by the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija

10     with the Pristina Corps forward command post in Djakovica.  He was the

11     Chief of Staff of the Pristina Corps at the forward command post in

12     Djakovica, and I wasn't there with him in order to know how this text

13     written in this document was implemented in practice.

14        Q.   Let us go back to the first page.  Just to be sure, the item 1

15     orders that the combat group is to be engaged to support the MUP forces

16     in breaking up the enemy forces in Slup and Voksa villages.  You were

17     area that this operation that you discussed at the Joint Command meeting

18     would involve MUP forces?

19        A.   I'm telling you that it wasn't a meeting of the Joint Command.

20     It was our co-ordination --

21        Q.   Very well --

22        A.   -- and naturally Pavkovic briefed on this and I knew that both

23     the forces of the army and the police would be engaged in that area.

24        Q.   Did you see any type of order that was given or sent to MUP

25     forces who would participate in this action?

Page 9851

 1        A.   No, not a single document.  I personally didn't see a single

 2     document, either in relation to this action or any other action.  I only

 3     saw a document pertaining to the first meeting and what was issued there

 4     collectively.  I didn't see that commander of units received any order,

 5     and all of the documents went from the Pristina Corps to the staff; and

 6     then the staff would distribute them to whoever needed them.  I

 7     personally never saw either this decision or any other decision of this

 8     type, nor the map that commanders normally received.  Out in the field I

 9     only saw the maps of locations based on which they informed the staff

10     about the whereabouts of individual units.

11        Q.   Can we have a look at document with 65 ter number 04487.  And

12     what is coming up is an attachment to this decision that is in front of

13     you now.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm trying to find this, this

16     exhibit, in the list provided by the OTP and I can't find it.  But never

17     mind me, Ms. O'Leary can't find it either.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Can you assist, Mr. Stamp?

19             MR. STAMP:  I am told it's not on the list, but -- so I'll just

20     move on.

21        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, in your sojourn in Kosovo during these

22     operations, you saw only one map that set out or described the

23     disposition of MUP forces for these operations; is that your evidence?

24        A.   I saw an encrypted map which unit commanders had, depicting

25     locations in figures.  The staff of the MUP had the same map, as did

Page 9852

 1     commanders of military units and their commands within the corps.  So

 2     those were the maps based on which unit commanders could report to the

 3     staff without referring to the name of a location, but rather just giving

 4     figures which were codes for locations.  They would call the staff and

 5     say, "I am near village 42."  That's the only map I saw, that's the

 6     encrypted map produced by the Pristina Corps.

 7        Q.   Well, weren't you aware that for each order like the one we just

 8     looked at for operations, there was a specific map for that operation

 9     which accompanied the order?

10        A.   As I have said to you, I knew that they received excerpts about

11     activities that were to be conducted and that were depicted on the map.

12     I'm not sure whether this document that we saw, order, the textual part

13     of it was distributed at all.  I know that for PJPs --

14        Q.   Can you just focus on -- Mr. -- simply, simply, were you aware

15     that for each operation there were issued specific maps that delineated

16     the disposition of forces, including MUP forces, for that specific

17     operation?  Were you aware of that?

18        A.   Well, of course I was.

19        Q.   Good.  That's a straight answer.  Thank you.

20             Now, you were in the field in this period for many of these

21     operations.  Were you not interested in seeing the instructions and the

22     maps that governed how the MUP forces were to participate in these

23     operations?

24        A.   It was the commanders who were duty-bound to work pursuant to

25     those maps.  I myself was out in the field, and I didn't really like maps

Page 9853

 1     because it's not what I'm very knowledgeable about.  I did not interfere

 2     in their work with maps.  They had their own responsibilities.  I was

 3     present there.  They moved about pursuant to the orders given to them and

 4     pursuant to the maps distributed.  They harmonised that with the members

 5     of the army, and there was no need for me to supervise whether they were

 6     moving in accordance with what was written in the maps or not.  I wasn't

 7     really interested in those maps.

 8        Q.   How about the written text, the excerpts, that accompanied these

 9     maps to the unit commanders, you weren't interested in reading these --

10     even one of them for all of these operations that you went out on?

11        A.   Well, that was the task of the staff.  They also participated in

12     drafting these plans.  They would send their representative, and then

13     they were duty-bound to convey that to all the units that were under

14     their command.  That was their responsibility.  I was outside of that

15     process of handing down orders and what was contained in documents and

16     maps.  I really don't know whether there were any written orders.  I know

17     that they received excerpts on the maps.  Now, as to what was actually

18     inside, to tell you the truth, I don't know; I never looked into any of

19     those envelopes.

20        Q.   In July, August, September, early October -- well, you have told

21     us you were in the field most of the times.  But about how many

22     operations did you oversee or did you monitor?

23        A.   I really couldn't tell you, couldn't give you any figures now.  I

24     spent most of the time out in the field when these actions were

25     conducted, so I couldn't give you any figures.  Now, there were broader

Page 9854

 1     operations there covering several areas.  I dealt with one axis and one

 2     area; other people dealt with others.  So it wasn't possible for me to

 3     oversee all of that.  Instead, I would mostly focus on the areas that

 4     were considered to be most problematic or expected to be.  That's where I

 5     was.  So if we look at the total number of those operations, I perhaps

 6     was there in one-third of them because there were really many of them in

 7     our area.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Could we look again at P886, at the minutes of the

 9     meeting.  And we want to get to page 24 in English.  I think it's

10     page 27.  Can we have a look at page 27 in English.  It's a meeting for

11     the 1st of August, 1998.

12        Q.   And you are speaking here that preparations for the -- tomorrow's

13     operation have been completed, and that is in respect to the launching of

14     the third phase of the plan.  Do you recall that meeting?

15        A.   There was a meeting.  Now, as to whether I remember it, there was

16     a meeting, I was present, and they recorded here what I had allegedly

17     said.  This was recorded by the person who took down the minutes.  We

18     don't know how it was done.  My intervention here deals exclusively with

19     the implementation of the plan that had been previously drafted by the

20     Pristina Corps.  I here speak of the direction that needs to be taken,

21     and this is the sense of my words here.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I probably should advise that a

24     document I referred to earlier by its 65 ter number, 01434, had been

25     received in evidence as P1424 in -- 1422, P1422.  I just state that for

Page 9855

 1     the record.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Can we look at D312 -- sorry, D324.  I'm sorry.

 4        Q.   You see General Pavkovic here is requesting of the 3rd Army

 5     commander approval to continue operations according to the above plan,

 6     that's in the last sentence of the document.  But in the first sentence

 7     he notes that:

 8             "It was decided at a meeting of the Joint Command ... held on the

 9     31st of July, 1998 ... to launch the third stage of the plan on the 2nd

10     of August ..."

11             Can you -- or may I just put it this way:  Does this not remind

12     you now that the combat plans, the combat orders that were prepared by

13     the Pr, the Pristina Corps, were prepared on the basis of Joint Command

14     orders?

15        A.   What I know is that the commander of the Pristina Corps could not

16     adopt any documents about implementing the general plan without

17     previously receiving an order from his superior command.  Now, as to what

18     kind of communication he had with his command, what he wrote to them, and

19     what they responded and what they ordered, I know nothing about that.

20     All I know is that based on an order of some sort of a co-ordination body

21     in Pristina, he was not authorised to move his units and carry out

22     assignments.  He could only receive assignments from his superior

23     command, which was the command of the 3rd Army.

24        Q.   And he -- you observe that he requests that approval on the basis

25     of the decision of the Joint Command -- well, very well, that is

Page 9856

 1     something on the face of the document.

 2             I really should have shown you before the --

 3        A.   I really don't know anything about their communication and

 4     correspondence, what they wrote to each other.  I don't know that.  I

 5     know that he would come in the evening to that meeting.  He would inform

 6     us that he had just arrived from the meeting at the forward command post

 7     of his corps in Pristina.  He would say, "We talked about this and that,

 8     I received such orders."  Now, as to any further details, I really don't

 9     know about that.

10        Q.   Well, if you look at the meeting of the 30th of July, that's a

11     Joint Command meeting, the last -- and I think you have the minutes here.

12     And this is at page 25 in the English.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   30th of July, the last thing there is the execution of the third

15     phase.  General Pavkovic in the letter we were looking at earlier

16     referred to a decision of the Joint Command of the 31st of July.  I can

17     tell you and you can see that that is not there on the 31st, but if you

18     look for the previous day you will see part of the conclusions at the end

19     of the meeting refers to exactly what you were saying, the execution of

20     the third phase.

21             You observe that?  And --

22        A.   Well, I don't.  I can't find it in the documents here, but of

23     course there was debate about the activities in the previous period and

24     what was ahead in the days that followed.  So this is nothing strange

25     that was the methodology of work at those meetings.  So people would be

Page 9857

 1     briefed, this stage was completed, or we have this stage ahead of us, or

 2     such and such a task has to be carried out which is in this stage.  And

 3     on the basis of this discussion preparations are to be made, and those

 4     documents were then used as a basis for further action.  So it is not

 5     controversial that security problems and security situation and

 6     anti-terrorist activities were discussed at those meetings, inter alia.

 7     Each of those politicians addressed problems that concerned him, but as

 8     Djakovic told us, he wrote down what was of interest to him.  He didn't

 9     write down everything that was said and everything that was discussed

10     there.

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I was wondering if it's a convenient

12     time.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the first break now, to resume at

14     4.20.

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             If we could move on and have a look at P890.

20        Q.   This is a decision by General Pavkovic, then commander of the

21     Pristina Corps, on the joint engagement of MUP and VJ forces in -- if we

22     look in paragraph 1 in various areas including Glodjane village, Prilep

23     village sector.  You are aware of this operation, aren't you?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, I remember when you testified you spoke -- you were shown a

Page 9858

 1     video -- well, we'll get to that later.  And if you could go down, if you

 2     could go to page 2 -- or let's scroll down in the B/C/S and stay on the

 3     same page in the English.  And I think we'll have to go to the top of the

 4     next page in the B/C/S, please.  You'll see, among other things, at 2.3.1

 5     the reference - which is at the bottom of the page in English - to

 6     sending the 1st Motorised Battalion to Glodjane village.  You see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to page 3 in the English, which is

 9     the last page I think in B/C/S.  The bottom of page 6 in the English,

10     command and control, that's item 6.

11        Q.   General Pavkovic says, as you have seen before, that the:

12             "Combat operations will be commanded by the Joint Command for

13     Kosovo and Metohija ..."

14             Now, you say that you never saw any of these orders in that time,

15     neither did you see any of the excerpts that were given to the MUP units

16     that were involved.  But were you aware that at least in military circles

17     they were referring to the command of these operations as being under the

18     Joint Command?  Were you aware of that?

19        A.   Well, it's absolutely not correct, what you're saying now.  This

20     statement that the exercise of command over combat was carried out by the

21     Joint Command from the forward command post of the Pristina Corps in

22     Djakovica -- well, that's something that I am completely unaware of.  I

23     don't know what Joint Command.  If we now take as a starting point that

24     the Joint Command was Sainovic, Minic, Matkovic, and all those people who

25     were down there, and if that means that they went to Djakovica, to the

Page 9859

 1     forward command post, to exercise command from there, well, that's not

 2     what happened.  That's not how it was done.  Civilians were never at

 3     command posts, they never exercised command.  That was the first time

 4     that I saw Colonel Lazarevic - he was a colonel then - since he was the

 5     only person at the forward command post of the Pristina Corps as the

 6     Chief of Staff of the staff in Djakovica.

 7        Q.   When was the first time you heard the expression "Joint Command"

 8     used in reference to the operations that began in June/July 1998 in

 9     Kosovo?

10        A.   I don't know when.  It was the usual term that was used widely in

11     the military circles by them, but if we look at the 22nd of July, the

12     first meeting that was held, the person taking the notes says attending:

13     Milomir Minic, the president of the Assembly, it's not correct.  He was

14     the president of the committee in the Yugoslav Assembly -- well,

15     Sainovic, that's correct; Zoran Andjelkovic, minister;

16     Djordjevic Rodoljub, deputy MUP, well --

17        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, Mr. Djordjevic, please, please.  I'm not saying

18     that what you're saying is not interesting.  I just want to know when it

19     is, if you can recall approximately, you heard the expression

20     "Joint Command" used in respect to the command or management structures

21     that were in place for Kosovo in this operation in 1998?

22        A.   I'm now telling you the first meeting that we held, nobody stood

23     up, Minic, Sainovic, or anyone else to say:  This is the Joint Command, I

24     am the commander, this is my deputy, these are the members.  This did not

25     happen, and it never had that form.  And then days later in the course of

Page 9860

 1     the communication, the term "Joint Command" was used.  To my mind it was

 2     used to label this kind of a meeting where we exchanged information.  But

 3     if you say a command, it has to have its elements:  The commander.  It

 4     has to have a permanent structure.  Well, if --

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You said days later - and that is your answer - days

 6     later in the course of communication the term was used.

 7             When you first heard this term being used, what sort of

 8     communication, was it oral or written?

 9        A.   Well, there was no communique.  It was just in regular

10     conversation.  It was not official.  That term was just used as jargon,

11     but it was primarily used by the military.  And Djakovic explained that

12     he coined the term even before all that was done down there in Kosovo.

13     But to my mind, those meetings did not have any features that would mark

14     it as a command of any sort.

15        Q.   If we could move on and have a look at P1422.  This is another

16     order issued by the Pristina Corps for operations in the Djakovica sector

17     dated the 19th of September, 1998.  And if we could look at page --

18        A.   Not Djakovica, Cicavica.

19        Q.   Yes, my pronunciation is really bad.  That's what I meant.  Sorry

20     about that.  Cicavica.

21             If we look at page 5, please, in the English which is in Serbian

22     page 3.  At the task of the neighbouring units he describes what the MUP

23     forces, what axes or what the forces would be doing.  Just have a read of

24     that and tell me if you recall this operation.

25        A.   Item 4, right?

Page 9861

 1        Q.   Yes.  Items 3 and the first sentence of item 4.

 2        A.   Yes.  Item 3 says that elements of the MUP forces in the

 3     Likovac-Poljance-Srednja Klina road -- Mitrovica road, Ovcarevo,

 4     Komorane, up to Belacevac, throw a wide cordon around the territory and

 5     control it to prevent an influx or spillover of the sabotage and

 6     terrorist forces from the combat sectors --

 7        Q.   Yes, do you remember this order -- sorry, do you remember this

 8     particular operation that is being referred to here?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And you see in the second paragraph of item 3 he says:

11             "Part of the Serbian population in the Serbian settlements shall

12     cut off the right bank of the Sitnica river to prevent the DTS from

13     crossing ..."

14             And you see in the second sentence of item 4:

15             "Engaging territorially based MUP forces and the Serbian

16     population, throw a wide cordon around ...  Cicavica ..."

17             You were aware, Mr. Djordjevic, at that time that the -- there

18     were armed members of the ethnic Serb population that was being used to

19     supplement the MUP and the VJ forces in these operations?

20        A.   No, I didn't know that.

21        Q.   Were you aware that just about the time when this five-phase plan

22     began there was a programme to arm members of the ethnic Serb population

23     in the villages in Kosovo?

24        A.   Well, the question is imprecise.  When the plan or the programme

25     were adopted -- what kind of programme for civilians are you talking

Page 9862

 1     about if you're asking me if I knew about that?

 2        Q.   Do you know about any plan or policy of arming ethnic Serbs in

 3     the middle of 1998 in Kosovo, that's ethnic Serb civilians?

 4        A.   I know that at that time, after the operations started, in some

 5     ethnically Serb villages reserve police squads were set up and people who

 6     were members of those squads were issued some weapons.  Now, as to any

 7     details of arming the Serb population in more general terms, I couldn't

 8     really tell you that --

 9        Q.   Very well --

10        A.   -- but I think at any rate --

11        Q.   Just to remind you, you recall that this operation that we're

12     discussing was also discussed at Joint Command meetings.  If you look at

13     the meeting for the 19th of September, 1998, in the document you have.

14             MR. STAMP:  This is P886, if we could go to 103, page 103.

15        Q.   And it's also in your document, you could probably find it if you

16     want to, the 19th of September, the entry for the 19th of September.  And

17     General Lazarevic is referring to the plan for Cicavica.  That is the

18     first person who spoke.  You still maintain, Mr. Djordjevic, that you are

19     not aware that in this action as well as in other actions armed Serb --

20     armed ethnic Serb civilians were used to supplement the MUP and the VJ

21     forces?

22        A.   As a force acting in co-ordination with the army and the police

23     in the implementation of some plans, they were not used.  If there were

24     any armed ethnic Serbs, civilians, if operations were carried out in an

25     area, their only obligation was to protect their own village and they

Page 9863

 1     were not part of any attacks or offensive operations.  But whoever wrote

 2     the plan included this category too.  But based on my presence in the

 3     field, armed villagers never joined the police or the army forces to act

 4     jointly, to take part with them in anti-terrorist activities, never ever.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So I take it that in respect to the order I just showed

 6     you, you are aware of the operation but you don't know about the part of

 7     the order that says that the Serbian population shall cut off the right

 8     bank of the river and shall participate with MUP forces in throwing a

 9     cordon, you don't know about that?

10        A.   In that action I was on the other side of the mountain.  Since

11     there was a mountain there, I was on the other side so I don't know.  I

12     didn't see then -- or actually in any other operation where I was present

13     that the armed civilians were used to reinforce the army and the police.

14     In 1998 there was no need for that, really.

15        Q.   In other words, you cannot -- you have no explanation as to why

16     General Pavkovic would include that in this order?

17        A.   I don't know why he put it.

18        Q.   Very well.  Can we move on to look at P11 -- sorry, P1229.  This,

19     without going over to the next page, is signed by

20     Lieutenant-General Pavkovic, commander of the Pristina Corps as he then

21     was.  He speaks here, first line, item 1 of a meeting in Belgrade on the

22     31st of August, 1998, presided over by the president of the Federal

23     Republic of Yugoslavia.  I think, but perhaps I'm mistaken, you mentioned

24     that you were at this meeting?

25        A.   Yes, I was.

Page 9864

 1        Q.   Along with -- from the MUP, that is, General Lukic,

 2     General Stevanovic, and the minister?

 3        A.   Yes.  According to the order of the President of Serbia,

 4     Milutinovic; Vlajko Stojiljkovic, the minister; myself; Generals Obrad

 5     Stevanovic and Lukic; and state security chief, were -- we were all

 6     there.  And at that meeting, the Pristina Corps commander briefed those

 7     present on the involvement of the units of his corps and the army in the

 8     implementation of the plan so far.  The head of the MUP staff for the

 9     prevention of terrorism, General Sreten Lukic, briefed the meeting about

10     the participation of the police units.  And then General Pavkovic

11     presented the plan for the implementation of the fifth stage in the plan

12     to prevent terrorism.  So that's how it was, yes.

13        Q.   And if we look at page 2 in the English, item 4, I think it is

14     also page 2 in the B/C/S but perhaps we could scroll down first to see if

15     it's on the first page of the B/C/S.  Well, it begins, you could read

16     those three lines and then we could move to the next page in B/C/S.

17        A.   Which item?  Is it item 4?

18        Q.   4, 4, please.

19        A.   Could you please put back the first page.  At a meeting of the ZK

20     for Kosovo and Metohija on 10 September, I repeated that request and

21     proposed the following --

22        Q.   No --

23        A.   -- I don't know what he's writing about here, it's really not

24     clear to me.

25        Q.   Well, do you remember -- well, firstly doesn't ZK, what you see

Page 9865

 1     there, doesn't that refer in Serbian to the Joint Command?

 2        A.   Yes.  Based on this letter, yes, this could stand for

 3     Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija.

 4        Q.   And he's saying that during a briefing of the Joint Command it

 5     was pointed out that a VJ had not formed rapid intervention helicopter

 6     units as the SRJ president had ordered at the meeting of the 31st of

 7     August, 1998.  Do you recall at that meeting with the president, on the

 8     31st of August, 1998, there was discussion and an order that there should

 9     be rapid intervention helicopter units?

10        A.   I know that that topic was included in the discussion -- I think

11     that at a meeting with President Milosevic as well, but I cannot be

12     certain at this time.  I know that it was envisaged that in order to

13     proceed as efficiently as possible there should be a team established

14     which would use the helicopters of the Army of Yugoslavia and that there

15     should be also MUP members involved, but it's been too many years since

16     then and I can't remember any details.  I just know that there were some

17     discussions concerning this.  I cannot remember what duties the MUP staff

18     had and what the Pristina Corps was supposed to do.

19        Q.   Do you recall it being discussed at the meetings of the body

20     referred to as the Joint Command?

21        A.   I think that it was discussed there as well.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at -- have a look at that -- but before we do,

23     if you look at the next page, just at the bottom there, the last

24     paragraph you see before "we propose."  You see that General Pavkovic,

25     having complained that everything had not been done by the 3rd Army

Page 9866

 1     command in respect of delivering these -- these rapid intervention

 2     helicopter units, he says:

 3             "We are giving the members of the Joint Command for Kosovo and

 4     Metohija the opportunity to report to the president of the Federal

 5     Republic of Yugoslavia that the VJ has not carried out its duties under

 6     the plan."

 7             Isn't General Pavkovic here saying that the Joint Command could

 8     report to the VJ, to the supreme commander, the president, for failing to

 9     carry out its decisions?

10        A.   He says there:

11             "We are giving the members of the Joint Command for Kosovo and

12     Metohija the opportunity to report to the president of the FRY that the

13     Army of Yugoslavia has not carried out its duties under the plan."

14             Once again, this is the command of the Pristina Corps

15     communicating with the army commander and other members that he mentions

16     here, and again this is his vision of the matters.  The MUP staff did not

17     have such problems and it did not address anyone on this issue.  Now, as

18     to what were his motives in writing this, I really wouldn't be able to

19     tell you.  I know that there were problems of organising this unit and

20     that ultimately it wasn't organised.

21        Q.   Yeah, but in Serbian -- when you read the Serbian, he's

22     effectively saying that the Joint Command could report to the VJ, to the

23     supreme commander, President Milosevic; isn't that what it's saying?

24        A.   That's correct.  That's what it says there.

25        Q.   And if we could look briefly at the P886, that's the minutes of

Page 9867

 1     the meeting, at -- for the 11th of September, I think, 87 -- oh, I think

 2     you're absent from this meeting, Mr. Djordjevic, but you could still go

 3     ahead to find the meeting of the 11th of September.  You see that

 4     General Pavkovic -- I'm sorry, I have I think the wrong reference here.

 5     Thank you.

 6             It's not here.  Pardon me, I think we will have to return to that

 7     reference once it's found.  But you recall that the rapid intervention

 8     units were decided upon or discussed at least at Joint Command --

 9     meetings of this body that is sometimes referred to as the Joint Command?

10        A.   That's correct.  You're completely right.  It was discussed, but

11     no decision was made nor could it have been made.  At that meeting and at

12     those various gatherings where we tried to agree, we could only give

13     proposals.  And this is one such case.  However, the request and the

14     proposals of these people here - and I think they are from the 3rd Army

15     or perhaps from the army in general - this never materialised.  They

16     never ultimately came out with these proposals nor could it have been

17     done by what you call Joint Command.  So nobody ultimately gave those

18     helicopters because they would have needed an order for that, they would

19     have needed to establish that unit, and to send those helicopters into

20     combat assignments.  It wasn't done because these people here did not

21     really have any Joint Command with all the power that normally goes along

22     with it.

23        Q.   If we could move on to another part of that -- this record, and

24     this is page 140 I think in the copy you have, but it is the

25     meeting - and I'm moving on to a slightly different topic.  It is the --

Page 9868

 1     it is page 140 in the English.  Meeting of the 28th of October --

 2        A.   Would you please give me the date.

 3        Q.   28th October.  You had indicated before that you can't recall

 4     being present at this meeting, and I had shown you two passages where

 5     you're recorded to have spoken.

 6             MR. STAMP:  If we scroll down to the bottom there and then move

 7     on to the next page in English where General Djordjevic speaks.

 8        Q.   It says there that you asked if you could submit information

 9     about the terrorist attacks on members of the MUP and the VJ to Mr.,

10     obviously, Shaun Byrnes of the OSCE.  And finally if we could look at the

11     last page in English, the end of the meeting.  I think I had shown you

12     where Mr. Minic referred to continuation of the command.  He said the

13     command should remain unchanged, but what I want to focus on is the

14     person who spoke before that, General Pavkovic, who, in the English,

15     said:

16             "We must bear in mind the use of armed people and how to include

17     them in defending roads."

18             Can you recall participating in any of these meetings where the

19     use of armed people was discussed?  And that is the use of armed people

20     by the MUP and the VJ.

21        A.   I'm -- apologise.  I wish to say just one sentence.  The last

22     meeting I attended was on the 6th of October.  After the 6th of October

23     until the 28th of October you cannot see me attending any of the meetings

24     of this body called the Joint Command, and then after 22 days I show up

25     at this meeting as shown here in the minutes.  So the situation --

Page 9869

 1        Q.   So, Mr. Djordjevic --

 2        A.   -- is completely unclear to me.  I do not remember that these

 3     meetings Pavkovic briefed on the use of civilians in order to protect

 4     roads.  I simply do not remember that.  At that time, in my view, there

 5     was absolutely no reason to engage some armed Serb civilians.  So that is

 6     not clear to me at all.  It is clear to me when we are discussing reserve

 7     police squads or some other units, I know what we're talking about, what

 8     their duties were, and so on.  But this here, I really cannot comprehend

 9     it.  It's been a long time and I am sure that armed Serb civilians were

10     not used in anti-terrorist activities as a force that acted in

11     co-ordination with the army and the police.  Now, who recorded what here,

12     who uttered what, I really don't know how to comment on this.

13        Q.   You see in the document, you just mentioned that, that it records

14     quite clearly when you're absent for a long stretch of meetings.  It also

15     records quite clearly when you're present.  You see that?

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P1221.

18        Q.   The last entry from the Joint Command -- from the minutes of

19     Joint Command that we were looking at refer to you as saying that -- as

20     asking if you could submit information about the DTS attacks on members

21     of the MUP and the VJ to Mr. Byrnes, and I want you to bear that in mind

22     as you look at this document.  This is an operations report of the

23     Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija dated the 28th of October, 1998,

24     and it gives information on a variety of issues.

25             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to page 2 in the English, also page

Page 9870

 1     2 in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   You see it refers to "terrorist actions."  Under item II, Roman

 3     numeral II, (b) "against the MUP.  1, in Retimlje village, Orahovac; 2,

 4     Gornja Klina village, Kosovska Mitrovica; 3," you can see that in the

 5     B/C/S copy "Komorane village on the Prizren-Djakovica road."

 6             MR. STAMP:  And if we could move to page 3 in the English and

 7     page 3 in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   It continues to list the actions, the terrorist actions as it is

 9     put, against the MUP -- well, first, were you aware of these terrorist

10     actions that is reported in this document?

11        A.   How would I know that?

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

13        A.   There are allegations here and most likely that's how it was.  I

14     wish to tell you this.  I concluded my activities on the 5th of

15     October --

16        Q.   Mr. --

17        A.   -- on the 5th of October I went to Belgrade.  I worked as chief

18     of public security there.  I took part in negotiations with OSCE and

19     NATO.  I buried my father, and following that I returned.  And then

20     according to this I was there for just one day before going back to

21     Belgrade.  I don't know about this document that you're putting to me

22     now.

23        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

24        A.   I don't know under whose instruction it was written.  I don't

25     know to whom it was addressed, I know nothing of this document.

Page 9871

 1        Q.   -- please answer my questions.  Please.  Were you aware -- were

 2     you aware of these --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- terrorist actions, as they are reported here?

 5        A.   Now, you're asking me after ten years to recall a specific

 6     anti-terrorist -- or, rather, terrorist action.  It says here that there

 7     was a terrorist activity on such and such day at such and such hour.  I

 8     have no reason to doubt this, but neither did I know then nor do I know

 9     now that this terrorist activity was really conducted because I wasn't

10     there.

11        Q.   That would be the short answer, and I'm going to ask you again:

12     Please just focus on the questions and answer the questions that I ask

13     you.

14             Had you ever seen any report like this before, an operational

15     report of the Joint Command?

16        A.   No, never.

17        Q.   You note that it is of the same date as when the Joint Command

18     minutes, the minutes of the meeting of the Joint Command, record you as

19     saying -- as asking whether or not you could report the KLA actions, the

20     DTS attacks on members of the MUP and VJ to Mr. Byrnes?  I'm suggesting

21     to you, Mr. Djordjevic, that these attacks recorded in the minutes --

22     sorry, in the report here are the same attacks that you were referring to

23     when you attended that Joint Command meeting.

24        A.   It is not contentious that the staff knew about all of these

25     events listed in the report.  It is also not contentious that the staff

Page 9872

 1     informed Shaun Byrnes and KDOM about all of these terrorist activities;

 2     that has already been clarified here.  But at that time I neither knew of

 3     this information -- I simply didn't have it because I was out of all of

 4     this for some 20 days.  As I have told you, most likely all of this

 5     information contained here about these events is correct, but I simply

 6     don't know about this because I was completely out for about -- for a

 7     certain period of time.

 8        Q.   What do you mean by "completely out"?

 9        A.   I did not deal with these matters.  I had no contact with these

10     matters.  I told you what my duties were between the 5th of October up

11     until -- I don't know.  It says here that I attended this meeting.  I'm

12     telling you that I spent 22 days in Belgrade discharging the duties that

13     I have told you about earlier.  As for these activities, the staff was

14     informed about all of this.

15        Q.   Let's look at P87.  This is the next day, 29th of October, 1998.

16     It's headed the "Minutes of the Meeting of the Operations

17     Inter-Departmental Staff for the Suppression of Terrorism in Kosovo and

18     Metohija 1998," held at Beli Dvor palace Belgrade, 29th of October, 1998,

19     chaired by President Milosevic, and including you among the leadership

20     figures present.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you remember that meeting?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   If we could move to page 2 in English, let's start at the bottom

25     of page 1 in B/C/S, so it should remain on the same page in B/C/S and go

Page 9873

 1     to page 2 in English.  In the presence of all these dignitaries and

 2     leadership figures, including yourself, the minutes there record

 3     General Pavkovic as speaking on behalf of the Joint Command for Kosovo

 4     and Metohija.  General Pavkovic went on to make a presentation.  Do you

 5     remember that General Pavkovic spoke on behalf of the Joint Command at

 6     that meeting?

 7        A.   General Pavkovic spoke at the meetings held previously regarding

 8     these matters.  He spoke about the forces of his corps.  And when it

 9     comes to police forces that acted in co-ordination with the army, then it

10     was General Sreten Lukic, head of the MUP staff, who briefed on that.

11        Q.   Yes, but --

12        A.   Now, who recorded these minutes and how this was drafted, I

13     really wouldn't be able to tell you.  I saw these minutes now for the

14     first time during preparations for the trial.

15        Q.   Well, the minutes were compiled - we don't need to go to the back

16     of the document - by Lieutenant-General Slavoljub Susic, who was the

17     chief of the cabinet for the Supreme Command of Yugoslavia.  And he puts

18     it here in his record that General Pavkovic spoke on behalf of the

19     Joint Command.  Do you recall - and this is a simple question, you could

20     answer:  Yes, I recall; no, I don't recall - do you recall that

21     General Pavkovic did so, that he spoke on behalf of the Joint Command?

22        A.   Please.  First of all, I don't know that I was a member of the

23     operational staff for the prevention of terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija,

24     inter-departmental staff, and I am unfamiliar with the term.  And I did

25     not attend meetings as member of the inter-departmental staff.  Now, I

Page 9874

 1     don't know why the minute-taker used this name to label that meeting.  I

 2     don't know that.  It would be good --

 3        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

 4        A.   -- for that to be explained, how come that now we have this term.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, let's -- let's focus on the questions I'm asking

 6     you.  Was General Pavkovic introduced or was it mentioned that he was

 7     speaking on behalf of the Joint Command?

 8        A.   Sir, this is not a black or white situation.  You have to explain

 9     things.  If he had spoken on behalf of the Joint Command, then he would

10     have included all the components of all the structures that were present

11     there, the army, the police, and he would brief on everything that was

12     done in Kosovo.  On that occasion and on previous meetings, he always --

13        Q.   Can I take it that your answer is you do not recall that?  That's

14     all I want to know.  We're wasting time now.  All the question asked is

15     whether or not you recall whether what is recorded here is correct, that

16     General Pavkovic spoke on behalf of the Joint Command.  Can we have your

17     answer so we could move on?

18        A.   I remember that he spoke on behalf of the Pristina Corps, and the

19     head of the MUP staff spoke on behalf of the MUP forces that were engaged

20     down there.

21        Q.   Could we move on to page 3 in the English and also in the B/C/S.

22     You see at the bottom there in referring to the outcome of the

23     implementation of the plan, he said:

24             "The following tasks were set in the said plan.

25             "Taking measures to reinforce the security of the state border in

Page 9875

 1     the border belt and in depth.

 2             "Organising, equipping, and co-ordinating the operations of the

 3     MUP and VJ forces to oppose terrorist forces more successfully.

 4             "Taking control of territory in Kosovo and Metohija by MUP and VJ

 5     forces, and the establishment of conditions to unblock roads and occupied

 6     territory" --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when

 8     reading.

 9             MR. STAMP:

10        Q.   Do you recall that you reported on those tasks, among others?

11        A.   Well, I did not present any reports at those meetings and nobody

12     ever asked me anything.  But I remember that Pavkovic presented briefings

13     on the implementation of the global plan for anti-terrorist activities

14     which he himself drafted.  And now when actions according to that plan

15     were completed, he spoke about the implementation of the plan, the plan

16     that he had presented at the first meeting on the 21st of July.  So now

17     he is saying what was done in accordance with this general plan.

18        Q.   And if we could go to the next page you see number 4 is:

19             "Arming the Serbian and Montenegrin people and establishing

20     reserve police units to defend Serbian villages."

21             You recall that that was a part of the plan?

22        A.   No, I don't remember that it was an integral part of the plan --

23        Q.   Do you recall that --

24        A.   -- well, if you mean the establishment of the reserve police

25     squads, well, I don't recall that being part of the plan.  I remember the

Page 9876

 1     activities that related to that, but I don't recall whether it was or was

 2     not a part of the plan.

 3             MR. STAMP:  And if we could move to page 7 in both.

 4        Q.   You spoke of General Lukic, who also made a contribution at this

 5     meeting.  You even see here it is recorded by Lieutenant-General Curcic:

 6             "Major-General Sreten Lukic submitted a report on the work of the

 7     Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija, devoting special attention to the

 8     higher professional successful co-operation between the army and the

 9     police commands and units in performing the following tasks ..."

10             Can you recall General Lukic making a presentation on the work of

11     what is recorded here as the Joint Command.

12        A.   Well, I have to say once again, you have to take into account

13     what the note-taker is saying about the co-operation between the units of

14     the army and the police, but he's using the term "milicija."  At that

15     time "milicija" was not the term that was used; it didn't exist.  So this

16     is just a free interpretation on the part of whoever was taking the notes

17     and the minutes --

18        Q.   "Milicija" --

19        A.   -- all the terms that he's using here --

20        Q.   Please stop, please stop, please stop.  Please just focus on the

21     question.  Joint Command, that is the question or the part I want you to

22     focus on says:

23             "Major-General Lukic submitted a report on the work of the

24     Joint Command ..."

25             Is that your memory of General Lukic's presentation?

Page 9877

 1        A.   I remember quite clearly that he submitted a report, but he did

 2     not submit a report on the engagement of the Joint Command for Kosovo and

 3     Metohija.  This is a free interpretation of whoever drafted the minutes.

 4     Sreten Lukic submitted the report at the meeting on the topics that are

 5     listed here, the participation of the police in the implementation of the

 6     plan and the engagement in the previous period.

 7        Q.   Let's go to page 9 in English, page 10 in B/C/S.  Without going

 8     through the entire document, can I remind you or is it your memory that

 9     Mr. Milomir Minic also made a presentation at that meeting?

10        A.   I think he did.

11        Q.   And we see in conclusion he said:

12             "The operations staff should provide an assessment of how

13     successfully the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija has fulfilled the

14     authorisations conferred upon it."

15             Do you recall him saying that?

16        A.   Well, after ten years I really can't say.  I remember that he

17     took part in the discussion, but now as to what he dealt with in his

18     intervention and what his proposals were -- with the best of intentions I

19     can't tell you whether he really did intervene in those terms as he is

20     recorded here.

21        Q.   Let's look at page 12 in English and the B/C/S.  And you want to

22     go to the bottom of page 12 in the Serbian version and the third --

23     fourth paragraph of page 12 in the English version.  Surely,

24     Mr. Djordjevic, you would remember what the president of the country

25     said.  This recalls the President of the Republic of Serbia,

Page 9878

 1     Milan Milutinovic, as considering that the reports submitted by the

 2     members of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija should be accepted.

 3     Do you recall that Mr. Milutinovic said that?

 4        A.   Well, how could I remember that after ten years?  But I don't

 5     doubt that he actually said that, but I can't really remember it because

 6     I didn't take notes and after ten years it's really impossible for me to

 7     say what Milan Milutinovic said.  I remember that Perisic intervened.  I

 8     remember that all of those people did say something, but I can't really

 9     say now what is it that they said and whether he really did intervene on

10     the issues that we see here in the minutes.

11        Q.   Well, this is the president talking about a group of people that

12     you were a part of.

13        A.   You're asking me if I remember, if I recall.  You will admit that

14     ten years is a long time.  It's too long time for me to be able to

15     remember every sentence that he uttered.  It's likely that he did say

16     everything that is recorded here, but at this point in time I can't

17     remember whether he did or did not.

18        Q.   If you look at the top of page 13 - if we could move to that in

19     B/C/S and stay on the same page in English, please - we have the

20     president of the country saying -- or the president of the country being

21     reported as supporting the proposal for consideration of the continued

22     status of the Joint Command.

23             "Milutinovic believes that the Joint Command should continue

24     functioning for a while, although thought should be given as to whether

25     it should continue in its present membership or whether some changes

Page 9879

 1     should be made."

 2             Again, the president is commenting on a body that you were a part

 3     of and he is proposing that the body continue to operate.  Do you

 4     remember him saying that?

 5        A.   I don't doubt that he said that.

 6        Q.   And if we look at page 13 in English and it's also page 13 in

 7     B/C/S, the bottom of page 13 in B/C/S, we see the intervention of

 8     Deputy Prime Minister Sainovic.  Do you remember that Deputy Prime

 9     Minister Sainovic also participated, he had comments to make at this

10     meeting, do you?

11        A.   As in the case of other participants in the discussion, I

12     remember that they did say something; but now as to what they were saying

13     and what the topic was, I really can't now say.  Because I didn't take

14     notes, I didn't produce any kind of aide-memoire --

15        Q.   Very well --

16        A.   -- and I don't doubt the record, the minutes, that really he did

17     say what is recorded here.

18        Q.   That the -- that he agreed with the continued activity of the

19     Joint Command.  That's what he says here.  Is that what you have read?

20        A.   I can't find the place in the text, but I don't doubt the fact

21     that it was -- it may have been debated too.

22        Q.   The text here says at the bottom last two lines in your Serbian

23     version:

24             "Deputy Prime Minister" --

25        A.   Could you --

Page 9880

 1        Q.   -- I think it's that it there --

 2        A.   -- scroll -- well, you can't see it.

 3             "The Vice-President Sainovic agreed with the opinion to consider

 4     the -- whether it is appropriate" -- well, he says that the number of

 5     people should be reduced and that they should be better prepared for more

 6     effective action in new conditions.  This is what it says here.  I

 7     suppose that the new conditions actually mean the agreements that were

 8     signed following the mediation of the international community in the

 9     crisis down there, and now it is quite natural that the engagement of the

10     forces of both the army and the MUP should be adjusted to the new

11     conditions.  This is how I interpret it now that I'm reading it.

12        Q.   Very well.  Well, let's move to page 14 in English and page 15 in

13     Serbian.  This section I feel -- quite sure that you won't fail to

14     remember this because this is President Milosevic himself speaking.

15             "President Milosevic recommended to the president of the Republic

16     of Serbia, Milan Milutinovic, to personally go to Kosovo and Metohija and

17     explain the substance of the agreement which we have reached with the

18     representatives of the international community to the presidents of

19     districts and municipalities."

20             And if we move to page 15 in the English and this is the same

21     page at the bottom of page 15 in the B/C/S, so the B/C/S page should

22     remain the same.  Continuing his speech, President Milosevic in the third

23     paragraph from top in the English version:

24             "Continuing his speech, President Milosevic pointed to the need

25     for the continuing function of the Joint Command for Kosovo and

Page 9881

 1     Metohija ..."

 2             This is President Milosevic speaking about a body that you were a

 3     part of.  Do you recall that he said this?

 4        A.   Well, I would be only too glad to be able to tell you that I

 5     remember it, but I don't.  I don't doubt that he actually did say that.

 6     And then he says some kind of a co-ordination staff.  I don't know now.

 7     The Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija and the co-ordination staff, I

 8     don't know what this co-ordination staff is.  And I said that the title

 9     of this document is minutes from the meeting of the operational staff.

10     Now all of a sudden there is this co-ordination staff.  I really, in

11     light of all the terms that are used here by the man who signed the

12     minutes, I can't -- well, co-ordination staff and President Milosevic is

13     supposed to have said that.  This is the first time that I hear about

14     co-ordination staff.  I know that the state commission for the

15     co-ordination of the activities with the OSCE was established and that it

16     was chaired by Nikola Sainovic, and I know that Milan Milutinovic was

17     ordered to go to Kosovo --

18        Q.   Mr. --

19        A.   -- that he went there and so was I --

20        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I'm sorry, you're going way beyond now what I was

21     asking you about, and I wasn't really focusing on the title of the

22     document, just the contents.  You know, sometimes the title may be a

23     matter of an administrative filing system.  It's the contents.

24             Just before we move from this document, can I ask you did you

25     know Lieutenant-General -- I'm sure I'm going to get the pronunciation

Page 9882

 1     wrong, but I think you mentioned the name before - but Lieutenant-General

 2     Slavoljub Susic?

 3        A.   I know a Curcin but there might be a Curcic too.  I know the name

 4     and I may know the man by sight but that's all.

 5        Q.   Let's look at the remainder of the document.  You know the person

 6     who signed as having compiled these minutes?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that and I know him.

 8        Q.   Who was --

 9        A.   He was the head of the military office of the president of the

10     FRY.  But I would like to ask you to show me when the minutes were

11     actually drafted --

12        Q.   That was on the front page --

13        A.   -- please.

14        Q.   -- the minutes are dated the 2nd of November.  Can we move on to

15     another document, P770.  You can take my word for it, Mr. Djordjevic,

16     they are dated the 2nd of November, but we have to move on quickly.

17     P770, please.

18        A.   Yes, yes, I can see that.  Yes, fine.

19        Q.   These are the minutes of a MUP staff meeting of the 5th of

20     November, 1998.  You will recall I showed you from the notes of the

21     previous meeting on the 29th of October, President Milosevic recommended

22     that President Milutinovic should go to Kosovo and explain to the senior

23     people there the way the country would proceed in the future, to explain

24     what had been agreed and what would be done.  You recall that?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 9883

 1        Q.   And this meeting, I think that's where you have it there in

 2     B/C/S, these minutes, the 5th of November, minutes held at the MUP staff

 3     in Pristina on the 5th of November.  The meeting was attended by

 4     President Milutinovic; Minister of Interior Stojiljkovic; Colonel-General

 5     Djordjevic, chief of the public security department; Lieutenant-General

 6     Markovic; various other MUP generals and senior persons.  It says:  Staff

 7     member Nikola Sainovic and Milomir Minic, Zoran Andjelkovic, all of the

 8     major actors in Kosovo being present, General Pavkovic as well from the

 9     VJ, and the SUP chiefs, the special unit commanders are present.

10             Now, you were asked about this document by counsel for Defence,

11     and you said that this was Mr. Milutinovic down there supporting the

12     people in Kosovo, it was a show of support.

13             Be that as it may, I wanted to ask about one part of it.

14             MR. STAMP:  And if we could go to page 2 of this presentation.

15     And it's page 2 in English as well -- or the next page in English.  At

16     the top, about five or six lines from the top.

17        Q.   The president, now in Kosovo, says:

18             "With regard to the Yugoslav Army and the police, everything will

19     stay the same as it has been up to now, (a Joint Command, VJ army units

20     will not withdraw, and the police forces have only been reduced by the

21     number that has already been withdrawn)."

22             You remember the president, President Milutinovic, saying that

23     the Joint Command would remain?

24        A.   Well, I don't doubt the words as they are written here.  It's

25     possible.

Page 9884

 1        Q.   But do you recall it?  I ask you because I think it's important

 2     because you are recorded as having been at these meetings all through the

 3     offensive.  These meetings involve massive use of force and massive,

 4     massive, police/army operations.  It certainly must have been important

 5     in your career.  They occupied you for the better part of one year, and

 6     the president is saying that this body should continue.  That's why I

 7     keep asking you if you remember him saying that.  Do you remember him

 8     saying that?

 9        A.   Right now I do not remember, but I do not doubt that he uttered

10     those words.  I can't tell you that I remember when I don't remember

11     whether he said "Joint Command" or as is written here remains, the army

12     units are not being withdrawn and police forces are being reduced, and so

13     on.  They had to act in accordance with the agreements that had been

14     signed.  Had we not done it, we would have been bombed again.

15        Q.   Right.  That, again, is interesting but not on point.  Back to

16     the Joint Command which is the point I want to focus on.  You will agree

17     with me, having said you don't doubt that he used these terms that are

18     recorded in these minutes, you'd agree with me that he could not be using

19     the term "Joint Command" loosely as you said it was being used?

20        A.   Well, it's true, but I think that it was not a Joint Command.

21     Even though he used that term, it does not pertain to some sort of a

22     command; it pertains to co-ordination between the entities that were to

23     act there.  A command needs to have certain attributes, certain duties.

24     There has to be everything that is needed for a command.  It is a

25     generally accepted term for the co-ordination that existed between the

Page 9885

 1     forces that were active there.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Mr. Djordjevic, I have to say that we are going a

 3     little bit slower than I was anticipating, so I'm going to ask you again

 4     to just focus on the questions and answer them directly --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm going to have to ask you, Mr. Stamp, to

 6     continue at 20 minutes past 6.00.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  We have reached our tape time.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           --- Recess taken at 5.53 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 6.22 p.m.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

13             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             Can we have a look at P902.

15        Q.   And while the document comes up, may I ask you, Mr. Djordjevic,

16     you said - and we're moving on to Racak - you said that the minister

17     ordered you to go down there to assist if you needed.  What sort of

18     assistance did you contemplate you could give?

19        A.   That event caused great concern, both with the minister and with

20     the entire leadership of Serbia.  The minister wanted to gather

21     information as quickly as possible and to make available information that

22     would clarify this event.  The accusations that were uttered by Walker at

23     the press conference -- the minister wanted to neutralise that to some

24     extent.  We actually wanted to see what had happened there.  So the

25     minister issued an order for me to go there.  I went there and I stayed

Page 9886

 1   there on the 17th in the afternoon and on the 18th until the members of the

 2   police came in and enabled the on-site investigation team to do their job.

 3        Q.   So it sounds to me that you went down there basically on a

 4     fact-finding mission?

 5        A.   I don't know how I – how was I supposed to establish facts.  My

 6     task was to assist the staff down there to, first of all, conduct an

 7     on-site investigation and that is the basic activity that is the starting

 8     point for establishing facts, to make it accessible to judicial organs,

 9     and then to see the whole course of events.  It wasn’t my task to analyse

10     the entire event from the beginning until the end.  My task was only

11     regarding the first part of the job which had to do with making it

12     possible for the on-site investigation team to do its job on the ground

13     and I was sent to do this task and I attended the execution of this task.

14        Q.   Well, what did you do actually?  How did you assist them to do

15     that?

16        A.   I have said that the overall situation caused great concern among

17     the leadership of Serbia.  The minister wanted to also have me there in

18     addition to the staff which was operationally in charge of those tasks,

19     so that I could be of assistance to the staff and for this job of

20     facilitating the on-site investigation to be done properly.  Well, that

21     was the task and my assistance to the staff basically.

22        Q.   Did you leave on the 18th or on the 17th?

23        A.   I received an order on the 17th at around lunchtime.  The

24     minister gave me the order to go down there, and then General Lukic after

25     about an hour sent a helicopter to fetch me, and on the 17th in the

Page 9887

 1     afternoon I arrived at the staff.

 2        Q.   Maybe I'm not asking the question.  I just want to move quickly.

 3     I just want to know:  When did you leave Racak, what day -- not Racak, I

 4     mean Stimlje police station?

 5        A.   I arrived at the police station on the 18th in the morning hours.

 6     It could have been 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning --

 7        Q.   When did you leave?

 8        A.   From there I left once the on-site investigation team reached the

 9     mosque where the bodies were.  So the minute they were able to conduct an

10     on-site investigation and once that territory was under the police

11     control, I returned to the staff.  So it could have been sometime around

12     1300 hours.  So on the 18th I left the police station in Stimlje, and I

13     arrived in Pristina sometime around 1300 hours.

14        Q.   Had an on-site investigation been conducted and completed by 1300

15     hours on the 18th?

16        A.   I can't be certain that the investigation was concluded by that

17     time.  What was important for me was that the on-site investigation team

18     arrived in the area and that they were able to conduct an on-site

19     investigation.  The minute they approached the mosque which was near the

20     police station, my presence was no longer necessary and I returned back

21     to Pristina.

22        Q.   So you left when they approached the mosque?  You have answered

23     that.  Sorry.  I withdraw that question.

24             So you were told, according to your previous evidence, everything

25     that had occurred during the police operation in detail by the staff.

Page 9888

 1     Can you tell us which units were involved in the operation?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember now, I think that a company of PJP unit

 3     from Urosevac participated in it and also some members of the operational

 4     pursuit groups also took part, but I'm not absolutely certain about that.

 5     I think that these were the forces that took part in the operation.

 6        Q.   How many men?  How many men approximately?  I know you won't

 7     recall exactly how many men.

 8        A.   The company had 90-odd men, and perhaps additional 30 to 40 from

 9     elsewhere.  So 130 men, but I'm -- don't know exactly where they were

10     from.

11        Q.   What was Goran Radosavljevic's role?

12        A.   I think that at that time he participated together with the

13     members of the operational pursuit group in that operation.

14        Q.   Was he the commander of that group, the OPGs?

15        A.   No, no.  He was a member of the staff.  And as a member of the

16     staff he took part in that operation.  At that time, in the establishment

17     sense, he wasn't a commander of that unit.  There was approximately one

18     squad each from the company and from the 124th Brigade.  They had their

19     own squad leaders, but Goran Radosavljevic took part in that operation as

20     well.

21        Q.   Did the VJ participate?

22        A.   I don't know that the army participated.  I know that they had

23     regularly deployed units in the area.  They had camps in the vicinity of

24     Stimlje, but I don't think that they took active part in the operation.

25        Q.   Why is it you left only when the team approached the mosque, yet

Page 9889

 1     your responsibility was to ensure that the team, the on-site team,

 2     conducted the on-site investigation appropriately?

 3        A.   I didn't tell you that nor was that my task --

 4        Q.   Stop a minute there --

 5        A.   -- I went there --

 6        Q.   Please stop.  I just want to be sure that I'm not misquoting you,

 7     because I recall after asking you two or three times you provided the

 8     answer, and this is at page 58, line 3 --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Mr. Stamp.

10             MR. STAMP:  Sorry.

11        Q.   After about my third question as to what you were supposed to be

12     doing down there I suggested to you that you were on a fact-finding

13     mission and you said:

14             "I don't know how I was supposed to establish the facts."

15             And you said:

16             "My task was to assist the staff down there, first of all, to

17     conduct an on-site investigation."

18             And then at page 58, line 1, you said:

19             "I was there to assist the police members in enabling the

20     investigative team to conduct an on-site investigation and I did that."

21             All I'm asking -- that is what you said?

22        A.   That's not at all of what I said.  Not a line of what you said is

23     what I had said.  I don't know how they do interpretation here, but that

24     is definitely not what I said.

25        Q.   Well, you said it twice according to this.  Okay.  We'll check

Page 9890

 1     that.

 2             I'll ask you again then.  What were you supposed to be doing down

 3     there?

 4        A.   Please, given what the situation was, namely, that after the

 5     intervention this territory where the event took place fell under the

 6     control of KLA, and given that Walker gave a press conference claiming

 7     that a massacre had been committed there, a crime, and so on, there were

 8     two or three attempts and then on the 15th, 16th, and even 17th, the

 9     on-site investigation team attempted to conduct an on-site investigation.

10     They attempted to establish in a professional manner what had happened

11     there.  It wasn't possible to do that because the area was under the

12     control of the KLA.

13             The political tensions and concern among all entities, including

14     the international community and Serbia, was great.  The minister was

15     expected to enable the judicial organs to conduct an on-site

16     investigation and to see what the situation was on the ground, whether

17     there were any casualties, and so on, to establish everything that an

18     on-site investigation is supposed to establish.  The minister issued an

19     order to the staff for the staff to draft a plan on yet another attempt

20     to enter the village to see whether there were any bodies of the people

21     who had been killed in the village and to see what the situation was.

22     All of this took place until the 17th when the minister issued an order

23     for me to go down there as well.

24             My task, given the seriousness of this situation, was to be

25     present there and to provide assistance should it be needed.  In

Page 9891

 1     accordance with that order, once I arrived there on the 17th in the

 2     afternoon, upon familiarising myself with these matters that I just

 3     described to you, I believed that it was necessary for me to go directly

 4     to Stimlje and to see how this operation that had been planned before my

 5     arrival was being conducted.  I went on the following morning to Stimlje,

 6     and I was present there until the moment when there were all the

 7     necessary preconditions for the investigation team to come to the area

 8     where the operation was conducted.

 9             The moment they were able to do that, the moment it became

10     possible for the investigation team to do that, given that the entire

11     territory was at that point in time under the police control, I realised

12     that my presence there was no longer necessary and I returned to

13     Pristina.  All the professional and expert measures that needed to be

14     conducted with regard to the on-site investigation was done by the

15     judicial investigations team.  I wasn't there to effect were to exert any

16     influence on their work.  My role there was to ensure that all the

17     preconditions were met for them to carry out their on-site investigation.

18     Once I ascertained that it was possible for them to do that, I returned

19     back, first to Pristina and then shortly thereafter to Belgrade.

20        Q.   So at the time you left, all you knew up until then is that they

21     had arrived at the mosque; is that so?

22        A.   Could you please repeat the question.  I don't understand it.  I

23     don't want to have any misunderstandings.

24        Q.   When you left, when you left, your information was that they had

25     arrived at the mosque, the team, the investigating team?

Page 9892

 1        A.   Well, when the police put under the control the territory --

 2        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

 3        A.   -- where the operation had been conducted -- but please, I have

 4     to explain, to clear things up.  Please go ahead.

 5        Q.   When you left where was the team?  Were they arriving at the

 6     mosque?  Is that what you know when you left?

 7        A.   Well, the police entered the mosque, found the bodies of the

 8     victims - they were lined up in the mosque - reported to the SUP chief

 9     who was there, right next to me.  And the on-site investigation team that

10     was already there -- that was also there, the on-site investigation team

11     was told that they could go and carry out the on-site investigation.

12     They left.  Some 15 minutes later they reached the mosque.  The police

13     was already there.  So at that time we knew that there were some 40

14     bodies in the mosque because the police when they entered the mosque saw

15     that.  And they informed the SUP chief, and he in turn --

16        Q.   No --

17        A.   -- reported or informed the staff head about that.

18        Q.   Now, as far as that operation is concerned, was it only in the

19     mosque that bodies were found?

20        A.   Yes.  All the bodies were in the mosque.  As they said at the

21     time, they were lined up and the investigative judge confirmed that in

22     his report following the on-site investigation.  Those were the bodies

23     that were found there.  Now, whether there were other bodies too, it's a

24     different issue.  There was some information to the effect that there

25     were some other bodies there that had been buried by the KLA previously

Page 9893

 1     because those were the bodies of their prominent fighters.  That was some

 2     information that reached us, but I cannot really say it was a fact.  The

 3     only bodies that were found were those in the mosque.

 4        Q.   At the time of your presence down there in Kosovo and on the 17th

 5     and 18th in Pristina and Racak, do you know if the Joint Command was

 6     still operational?  Was it still in existence and functioning?

 7        A.   No, I didn't know that.

 8        Q.   The document in front of you is the record of a meeting of the

 9     collegium of the Chief of Staff of the -- of VJ with all the commanders,

10     including the Chief of the General Staff present.  It's P902.  And the

11     date is the 21st of January.  If we move to page 11 of this -- of these

12     minutes -- sorry, page 9.  Let's go to page 9 first in English, which is

13     page 7 in B/C/S.  I'm going to move very quickly.

14             General Dimitrijevic was in charge of supreme -- sorry, security

15     administration for the army.  In the middle of this passage where he's

16     speaking he speaks of:

17             "The OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission has been coming up with

18     elements of the participation by the army."

19             And he goes on to ask questions about whether or not the army

20     participated in the event.  If we go to the last line:

21             " ... on the 16th of January in the morning ...  where the MUP

22     had carried out a mopping-up operation in Racak village and ... there was

23     some 60-something killed."

24             And if we could move to page 11 in the English, page 10 in the

25     B/C/S -- top of page 10 in the B/C/S.  And the bottom of page 11 in the

Page 9894

 1     English.  And the Chief of the General Staff in these minutes address the

 2     inquiry.  The second paragraph he said:

 3             "If the forces have to be used, nobody is denying that right of

 4     those who have the right to order it, but that means that if this joint

 5     staff, command, or whatever decided that the operation in Racak ...

 6     could not be carried out without the assistance of the Yugoslav Army, we

 7     know very well who must be asked for approval, if the FRY President

 8     orders, in spite of all the risk, that the Army be used, this decision

 9     must be carried out but bearing in mind the restrictions contained in the

10     agreement, neither Pavkovic nor I have that right ..."

11             The Chief of Staff is referring to the use or to the engagement

12     of the army in the Racak operation.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you have a specific question, Mr. Stamp?

14             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.  I withdraw the statement.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  You withdraw.

16             Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, if the counsel is

18     withdrawing the statement then I don't have an objection, but I think

19     there was a switch here.

20             MR. STAMP:

21        Q.   Yeah, the general says if this joint staff, command, or whatever

22     decided the operation in Racak could not be carried out without the

23     assistance of the army, can you -- or do you know what information the

24     general would have about the existence -- the continued existence of the

25     Joint Command at this stage?

Page 9895

 1        A.   Well, this is the first time I see this document.  You started

 2     with General Aco Dimitrijevic.  In his intervention he speaks about the

 3     16th of January, saying that the mop-up operation was carried out and

 4     there was some 60 people who were killed.  But that's not true.  The

 5     operation was conducted on the 15th, and on the 15th and the 16th and the

 6     17th the figure was not known.  And --

 7        Q.   Yeah, I'm asking --

 8        A.   -- now whether the army took part and in what way, I didn't know

 9     that at the time.  I didn't have any information to that effect in the

10     field.  We have heard various testimonies here, but this is the first

11     time that I see this kind of discussion at the General Staff.  To the

12     extent of my knowledge at the time, the Yugoslav Army did not take part

13     in the operation.  It was present in the area, but I think that -- well,

14     I didn't have any information that it used any of its assets.  That's

15     based on the information that I had at the time.

16        Q.   But, the Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army is also

17     referring to the Joint Command?

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to go back to page

20     9 in the Serbian version so that we can see who is actually saying this.

21     Where does it say that this is the Chief of the General Staff?  I really

22     don't see whether it is a Chief of the General Staff.  I think that there

23     is a mistake here --

24             JUDGE PARKER:  It's under the heading Colonel-General Ojdanic.

25             MR. STAMP:  Could we ...

Page 9896

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version, Your

 2     Honour, that's not what we're seeing, because the Serbian version is not

 3     on that page.  Could we please have the page where we can see that this

 4     is General Ojdanic --

 5             MR. STAMP:  [Previous translation continues]...

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] -- but in the Serbian language

 7     because we see only the text because there is not a single name here.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Could we on the Serbian version look at the bottom of

 9     the preceding page.

10        Q.   Who is that do you read there?

11        A.   Yes, Dragoljub Ojdanic.

12        Q.   Colonel-general?

13        A.   Colonel-General Dragoljub Ojdanic.

14        Q.   And let's get back to what he said on the next page.  All I'm

15     asking:  He refers to the existence of the Joint Command and their

16     possible involvement in this operation.  Now, you were attending

17     Joint Command meetings and you were down there at the time when this

18     operation occurred, you were on the spot.  My question is this:  Do you

19     know what facts the general would have to cause him to believe that the

20     Joint Command was still functional?

21        A.   You are drawing conclusions that are invalid.  First of all, I

22     was not a member of the --

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

24        A.   -- please, I was not a member of the Joint Command, and I did not

25     attend the meetings of the Joint Command.  On that day I went to the MUP

Page 9897

 1     staff and I discussed this issue with General Sreten Lukic.  I did not

 2     attend the meetings and I don't know whether they were held at the time

 3     and I don't know what the situation was.  I had a specific task.  I

 4     described to you -- for you what my task was, and when I completed it, on

 5     the orders of the minister, I went back to Belgrade --

 6        Q.   Very well.  Now --

 7        A.   -- and during my stay here on the 17th, in the evening, I did not

 8     attend any meetings except that one meeting with the head of the staff.

 9        Q.   Do you know why the general used language indicating that this

10     staff or Joint Command continue to function?

11        A.   Well, at this area the MUP staff for the prevention of terrorism

12     still existed.  The Pristina Corps was still there.  Both the Pristina

13     Corps and the MUP staff were duty-bound in light of the delicacy of the

14     situation to have a certain co-ordination, to co-ordinate their

15     activities.  I don't know how else I can explain this and how to try and

16     get into the head of the Chief of the General Staff and to know what he

17     meant when he said that.

18        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on.

19             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at P1052.

20             And I suppose, Your Honours, it might be a convenient time

21     because I'm moving on to an entirely new topic.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have checked.

24     Could we please look at page 1 of this document in the Serbian version so

25     that we can see the date of this document.  At the bottom of the page,

Page 9898

 1     Your Honour, you can see that this is the collegium of the Chief of the

 2     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army of the 24th of December, 1998.

 3             MR. STAMP:  If you look at the previous page, the cover page, you

 4     see it says on the 21st of January, 1999 --

 5        Q.   Let me ask you a question, Mr. Djordjevic.  How could the general

 6     be discussing the Racak operation in December 1998?  Is that possible?

 7     Or please don't answer.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, if I could just address this.  The

 9     document seems to be a standard printed form with a date the 24th of

10     December, 1998, appearing --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Which document is that?

12             MR. STAMP:  This is the document P902, which is on the screen.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that is showing a date of the 21st of --

14             MR. STAMP:  January --

15             JUDGE PARKER:  -- January 1999.

16             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Your Honours.

17             Oh, it now becomes clear to me.  I think in the copy in B/C/S we

18     are missing the first page, so counsel didn't apparently get that first

19     page.  I think we have to correct that and put the first page.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll hear from Mr. Djurdjic.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what's

22     on the first page of the B/C/S because I don't have it, but if you scroll

23     down the BH -- B/C/S version, at the bottom of the page it says the

24     collegium of the Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, the

25     24th of December, 1998.  The original is in B/C/S, so we see here that

Page 9899

 1     this is the collegium of the 24th of December, 1998.  There could not

 2     have been any mistake there, and I think that we should clear this up, to

 3     get to the bottom of it.  But when this was first placed on the screen it

 4     appeared to me that I saw the date the 24th of December, 1998, but then

 5     we moved on to another page.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  If you look at the English version, it has the

 7     same date at the bottom, 24 December 1998.  The subject matter of the

 8     passages of the transcript to which the witness has been referred appears

 9     clearly to be discussing events that occurred in January 1999 unless

10     there were two such events with very similar circumstances if you look at

11     what is said.

12             This is a matter which we can't pursue further tonight because

13     we've gone past 7.00, but we will continue the hearing tomorrow at 2.15.

14     If there is any further substantive matter to be raised, it can be raised

15     then.  If the issue is simply that the date at the foot shows 24 December

16     1998 and the minutes on the first page suggest 21 December 1999, the

17     Chamber is -- 21st of January, 1999, the Chamber is aware of that

18     discrepancy and will have to give it consideration.  If there are further

19     facts relevant to the date that need to be brought out, they can be

20     brought out tomorrow when we resume at 2.15.

21             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour --

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

23             MR. STAMP:  -- may I quickly ask permission if I may correct the

24     B/C/S version by putting the cover page, the first page, there.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  You may.  And I suggest you make a copy available

Page 9900

 1     to Mr. Djurdjic overnight.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

 6                           December, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.