Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12068

 1                           Monday, 1 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

 9     applies.  Mr. Popovic is finishing his questions.

10             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           WITNESS:  MILOS PANTELIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Popovic:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Pantelic.

15        A.   Good afternoon.

16        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, before we begin and continue with the documents,

17     I'm talking about page 12057 of the transcript, lines 12 to 15.  This is

18     your testimony on Friday.  So just for the sake of clarification, I will

19     ask you to answer a few questions that I have.  First of all, did you

20     receive daily bulletins or reports which talked about events from the

21     public security department and related to the previous day?

22        A.   I mostly received these bulletins regularly, sometimes it would

23     happen that one would cover the previous two days, depending on the

24     obligations of the analysis department of the Ministry of the Interior.

25     However, I can say that I received them regularly for a number of years.

Page 12069

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did these bulletins mention anti-terrorist operations

 2     being conducted in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?  Was it

 3     mentioned in any way?

 4        A.   The daily bulletins included events, important security events,

 5     from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija and the terrorist actions were

 6     briefly described in a few sentences.  As for the taking of

 7     anti-terrorist measures or activities, that was not included in the daily

 8     reports.  The staff in Pristina was in charge of that.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  As far as I remember, that was

10     precisely what you said on Friday, however, something else is recorded in

11     the transcript and this is why I had these questions for you.  Now I

12     would like to continue where we left off on Friday.

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D434, which is

14     your tab 18, Mr. Pantelic.  Yes, that's just the document.

15        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, this is the summary from the meeting of the

16     minister with the chiefs of secretariat held on the 16th of October, 1998

17     in Belgrade, and it was drawn up by the analysis administration.  Can you

18     tell us what sort of meeting this was?

19        A.   These were meetings held periodically, roughly every three

20     months.  There were five meetings a year at the most, and we discussed

21     the results of the work during the previous period, mostly the quarterly

22     period.  The main problems within the Ministry of the Interior were

23     examined, all problems from the remit of work of the Ministry of the

24     Interior, some conclusions were drawn, and on the basis of the

25     conclusions, certain measures were ordered.

Page 12070

 1             The meeting was attended primarily by the minister who chaired

 2     the meetings and also assistant ministers, chiefs of administrations from

 3     the seat of the Ministry of the Interior and chiefs of territorial

 4     organisational units, that is to say, chiefs of the secretariats of the

 5     interior.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 3 of this

 8     document in both versions.  And if you could please focus on paragraph 3.

 9     That's just the page.

10        Q.   And it says, minister of Internal Affairs, Mr. Vlajko

11     Stojiljkovic, said that the purpose of the meeting was to analyse the

12     results of work in the several months of the year and to determine the

13     tasks for the remaining months of the year.  Can you just comment on

14     that?

15        A.   The meeting was usually opened by the minister of the interior,

16     but he was not in charge of chairing the meeting.  It was usually a chief

17     of the sector or one of the assistant ministers from the seat of the

18     Ministry of the Interior.  Most of the times it was one of the assistant

19     ministers.  So a meeting would be opened by the minister, he would also

20     deliver the final presentation, and he would say what the conclusions

21     were, but the meeting was chaired by one of his assistants.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see page 8 in the

24     B/C/S version.  That is to say, page 6 in the English version.  Yes,

25     that's the right page.

Page 12071

 1        Q.   And will ask you to have a look at paragraph 3 once again,

 2     Mr. Pantelic.  The sentence that says:

 3             "In this year."  Have you managed to find it?

 4        A.   On page 8 paragraph 3 is not that sentence.

 5        Q.   Not page 8.  It's page 5.  It's not page 8 of the document.  This

 6     is what the heading says in B/C/S.  If this is easier.  And the third

 7     paragraph a sentence that says:  "In this year."  Have you managed to

 8     find it?

 9        A.   Yes, I have.

10        Q.   Can you please read it for yourself, maybe this paragraph as well

11     as the following one and tell us what this is all about.  Also, tell us

12     whether that was the information presented at this meeting in connection

13     with events in the territory of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and

14     Metohija.

15        A.   I just said that at the meetings of this kind, terrorist

16     activities of Albanian separatists were presented.  That was just brief

17     information totalling several sentences.  It was mentioned what the

18     number of these actions was, how many of people on their side were

19     wounded or killed during these actions, that is to say, what were the

20     consequences of that kind of conduct on part of the Albanian separatists.

21             However, at the meeting with the chiefs of administrations and

22     chiefs of secretariats, we did not examine any detailed information.  It

23     is mostly important to say that anti-terrorist actions were also not

24     mentioned and were never discussed.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at page

Page 12072

 1     12 in the B/C/S version, which is page 11 in the English version.  And on

 2     top of the page it is page 10 in the document you have in front of you,

 3     Mr. Pantelic.

 4        Q.   If you see under (b), primary tasks of the public security

 5     department this year, I suppose.  It's not very legible.  Can you just

 6     have a look at what the tasks are as they are listed under item 1.  Could

 7     you tell us if these were regular tasks that fell within the remit of the

 8     public security department of the Serbian MUP?

 9        A.   These were certainly regular tasks that fall within the remit of

10     the Ministry of the Interior, that is to say, the territorial

11     organisational units of the ministry.  But after the discussion at the

12     meeting once the overall security situation was examined, it was agreed

13     what should be done in the coming period.  The primary actions, as they

14     are formulated here, can be found in any minutes from these kinds of

15     meetings.  The priority was usually given to crime, that is to say,

16     detecting and suppressing crimes that fell within regular crime and

17     economic crime.  Also preventive measures aimed at the suppression of

18     both these kinds of crime, that was the main purpose of the work of this

19     ministry.

20             In addition to that, there was a lot of talk about keeping law

21     and order, which is the basic task of the ministry, to protect the lives

22     and property of citizens.  There were also problems with crossing the

23     state border, the conduct in the border zone, other administrative tasks,

24     weapons, travel documents, and so on and so forth.  There were also

25     problems connected with fire-fighting, with activating territorial

Page 12073

 1     firefighter units, as well as activities connected to traffic inspection,

 2     as well as logistical services within the ministry.

 3             Therefore, that was the subject of these meetings, that was what

 4     the conclusions related to, and on the basis of these conclusions,

 5     relevant measures were ordered.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see P1204, which is

 8     your tab 19.

 9        Q.   That is dispatch number 36.  The date is the 25th of November,

10     1998.  First of all, is it meant to be sent to the whole territory of the

11     Republic of Serbia?

12        A.   This is the usual, the so-called holiday dispatch, and it was

13     addressed to all organisational units that come within the remit of the

14     Ministry of the Interior, and it orders stepped-up security measures,

15     activities, in the coming holiday season.  At the end, it also say that

16     is it should be addressed to the information analysis administration and

17     that that should be an aggregate report on the security situation during

18     the same holiday, so this was a regular dispatch, it was regularly sent

19     during the holiday seasons, and it ordered the carrying out of special

20     security measures.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D436 now.

22        Q.   That is your tab 20.  That is dispatch number 2323.  The date is

23     the 11th of December, 1998, Mr. Pantelic, and the question for you is

24     whether this was addressed to everyone in the territory of the Republic

25     of Serbia.  Can you please also look at paragraph 2 and tell us what are

Page 12074

 1     the subjects discussed in this dispatch?

 2        A.   This dispatch talks about the action Valuta.  It is an action

 3     that was established in the 1990s.  As far as I remember in 1991 or 1992

 4     in Serbia we had huge inflation.  The value of the dinar was falling and

 5     at the time this action was established in order to suppress illegal

 6     buying and selling of foreign currency of all kinds, so all kinds of

 7     selling, reselling, and buying of foreign currency.  Later on once the

 8     foreign exchange rate with the dinar was settled, then this kind of

 9     activity stagnated, and in this situation when we expected that

10     circumstances would be extraordinary due to political pressure against

11     Serbia, there was also a lack of staple foods and fuels and other things

12     necessary for the normal life of any citizen, this problem became rife

13     once again.

14             Therefore, this dispatch was sent by the chief of the public

15     security sector, and he ordered that special measures be taken.  I

16     wouldn't talk about that in more detail because I think everything is

17     described here in detail.

18        Q.   All right.

19        A.   And let me also answer your question, the second paragraph says

20     here that per the order of the minister and with the name at energetic

21     and efficient prevention of these incidents, it is necessary to engage

22     the required number of operative workers.  This is precisely what we did

23     in practice.

24        Q.   All right.

25             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Now, if we can please see the

Page 12075

 1     Exhibit Number P356.  This is your tab 22.  Okay.

 2        Q.   This is dispatch number 312 dated 18th of February, 1999.  Could

 3     you please first of all tell me whether this was a dispatch intended for

 4     everybody in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, and then I will ask

 5     you question by question because I want to focus on the contents of this

 6     dispatch which is rather lengthy.

 7        A.   This is rather lengthy dispatch, and it regarded all the

 8     organisational units of the Ministry of the Interior included the

 9     secretariats of the interior.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pantelic, if you look at paragraph 2 of this

11     dispatch, at the end of this paragraph, you can see that it was necessary

12     to undertake the following measures, and these measures then included a

13     list of measures 1 to 20.  In order to avoid going through all of them,

14     could you please take a look at these measures and then briefly explain

15     whether these included the measures that fell within the remit of public

16     security sector and in which way were these measures supposed to be

17     carried out?

18        A.   What was ordered by this dispatch all falls within the regular

19     operations of the public security sector or all of its organisational

20     units.  In this paragraph under item 1, it is ordered to update the

21     defence plan focusing on the plan of stand-by measures, mobilisation

22     plan, and plan of preparing for defence.  This included, first of all, an

23     update of the establishment list of both active and reserve forces.  The

24     number of active forces was well known and last time we already talked

25     about the ways in which reserve forces could be engaged, and it was only

Page 12076

 1     the minister that was in charge of this, or a person authorised by the

 2     minister by his decision.  In this dispatch, it was ordered to activate,

 3     update, control, and man such units because in the meantime, it happened

 4     that certain persons fell ill, some of them due to their psychological

 5     condition were unable to carry out certain tasks, so it was the task of

 6     the department in charge of police within the secretariat and some of the

 7     inspectors who worked within this department to update these plans and to

 8     update them on a daily basis.

 9             So certain measures were not supposed to be ordered for anybody

10     who carried out their tasks regularly and appropriately.  From what I

11     could see now very quickly, apart from the establishment of reserve

12     command posts, the plans that regarded people's defence and securing

13     special reserves for secretariats and police units in their locations,

14     also prohibition of going abroad, prohibition of taking leave and so on,

15     so these are all regular activities apart from those activities that fall

16     under the remit of people's defence.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We will not go through all of the items, there are

18     many of them, but I believe that you are acquainted with all of them.

19     The only thing I would like to learn more about, if you would please take

20     a look at item 6.  And if you could provide us with a brief comment.

21        A.   This item 6 was topical even earlier.  This was a very difficult

22     period, the borders were closed, we were exposed to sanctions, and there

23     was a general lack of staple foods and energy sources, and these were

24     very pronounced problems.  For this reason, it was ordered that we had to

25     plan to increase beat duty and control all the facilities and also that

Page 12077

 1     we had to undertake certain actions for perpetrators of criminal

 2     activities.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] I would now like to see Exhibit

 5     D438.  This is your tab 23.

 6        A.   This is a dispatch that was sent to all the secretariats of the

 7     interior.  It was sent on 2nd of March, 1999.  At that time when we could

 8     already guess that the Rambouillet negotiations would not yield any

 9     results, then in earlier dispatches it was ordered that the management

10     had to organise duty operations in different organisational units.  This

11     lasted for a substantial period of time, so they were already exhausted,

12     and they could not carry out their regular duties, their regular tasks in

13     an adequate manner.

14             Bearing this in mind, this dispatch was sent from the Ministry of

15     the Interior so that the management could, in a way, be relieved for a

16     while and obviously this would impact very much their regular duties.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We can see here at the top of this dispatch that it

18     says:  Regarding dispatch number 312 of 18 February 1999.  So is this the

19     dispatch that you commented a short while ago which served as a basis for

20     this one?

21        A.   This dispatch is actually just a continuation of what was ordered

22     previously.

23        Q.   Thank you.  But now that we are talking about this, could we

24     please go back to page 356.  This is the previous dispatch that you could

25     see dated the 18th of February.  When we spoke about that dispatch, could

Page 12078

 1     you please take a look at item 7 on page 2 in B/C/S, possibly page 3 in

 2     English.  Item 7 which reads:

 3             "Through more intensive operational work and undertaking of other

 4     measures, make appropriate controls over paramilitary units and their

 5     members."

 6             Could you please tell me what was the meaning of this item 7?

 7     What was your reading of this, and what did you do as a result of this

 8     item 7?

 9        A.   Well, the explanation may be a very simple one.  The Law on the

10     Interior prohibited the ministry from engaging other units apart from

11     members of the reserve forces of the ministry.  So when this item 7 says

12     that through intensified intelligence and other measures and actions,

13     they were supposed to carry out the necessary checks and establish

14     complete control over volunteer and paramilitary units and their members,

15     what is meant here is that members of the Ministry of the Interior were

16     obliged, each of them in their respective territory, to list such

17     occurrences, inform the relevant military commands about this, and send

18     such people to military departments that had territorial jurisdiction so

19     that they could proceed in line with the relevant legislation at the

20     period.

21        Q.   Just to be a bit more precise, Mr. Pantelic, you are talking

22     about both volunteers and paramilitary units, are you?

23        A.   As regards paramilitary units, I never had any of them in my

24     territory, and we never registered any such occurrence.  As regards

25     volunteers, I also can't remember that we had many of those, so they were

Page 12079

 1     probably organised in a different way in the territories or in the

 2     territories of municipalities which did not fall under my remit, under

 3     the remit of my secretariat.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell me, the Law on People's Defence that you

 5     mentioned, which category it regulated, the volunteers or paramilitary

 6     formations?

 7        A.   I believe that the Law on People's Defence did not regular [as

 8     interpreted] paramilitary units.  Usually these were people who came from

 9     the ranks of criminals, and we tried in every way we could to eliminate

10     their partaking in any kind of volunteer units.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now please

12     have a look at Exhibit P716.

13        Q.   It is your tab 24.  Mr. Pantelic, this is dispatch number 544

14     dated 16th of March, 1999.  First of all, was it intended for everybody

15     in the territory of the Republic of Serbia and whether this dispatch

16     talks about regular tasks falling within the remit of the public security

17     sector, and if you could very briefly comment on this dispatch?

18        A.   This dispatch talks about the situation.  I can't even see here

19     who signed it.  But it describes the situation when in the municipalities

20     that were -- within the jurisdiction of different secretariats, we had a

21     large number of immigrants, refugees, and different other persons who did

22     not have their residence, not even temporary residence in the territory

23     of the Republic of Serbia.  So this dispatch orders certain measures to

24     be undertaken by the organs of the Ministry of the Interior in order to

25     resolve this problem in an adequate manner.  That is, in order to

Page 12080

 1     register all the persons who were present in the territory without being

 2     properly registered, without their residence being properly registered.

 3             For this reason, the IT department of the ministry provided lists

 4     of all the citizens and their addresses, so streets and house numbers, so

 5     whoever had their residences registered, and on the basis of this, one

 6     part of the uniformed police officers worked in relevant sectors that

 7     they were charged with to carry out certain checks in order to update the

 8     registers and as it is stated here, next to names of persons they had to

 9     put certain signs in order to make sure that we can identify these

10     persons.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pantelic, for the reasons of our transcript,

12     given that we do not have your answer recorded in the way in which you

13     said it on page 12, line 5 to 6, I would kindly ask you to repeat your

14     answer to this question.  So my question was, whether the Law on the

15     Defence regulated the issue of volunteers or paramilitary units and you

16     answered, so could you please repeat this answer because the transcript

17     does not reflect what you actually said.

18        A.   As I said, as for volunteers, that was one situation, and

19     paramilitary units were something quite different.  Volunteers were

20     directed to go to certain places that were determined by the Law on All

21     People's Defence and that were under the jurisdiction of military

22     territorial organs.  As for paramilitary formations, on the other hand, I

23     had none of them in my sector, and I did not send any reports relating to

24     them to the Ministry of the Interior.

25             However, I do know because that followed from some earlier

Page 12081

 1     dispatches that such formations were to be suppressed in every possible

 2     way, and they were not to be allowed to join the regular forces of the

 3     Ministry of Defence because they usually originated from the ranks of

 4     criminals.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  It was only for purposes of clarification.  You have

 6     told me everything in connection with the document P716, which is signed

 7     by Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic.  It is not easy to read on the last page.

 8     I'm just interested in knowing whether this dispatch once again covered

 9     tasks and duties that come within the regular remit of duties of the

10     public security sector?

11        A.   Yes, absolutely.  These are regular tasks that fall within the

12     responsibilities of the public security sector, but the tasks that

13     special attention needs to be paid to are emphasised therein.

14             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now please

15     have P1206 on the screen.

16        Q.   It is your tab 25.  Very briefly this is dispatch number 597.  It

17     is not easy to see the date, but it's the month of March 1999.  It says

18     the 22nd of March in the translation into English.  I will only ask you

19     to comment briefly on this, who was this dispatch addressed to and what

20     it is about.

21        A.   This dispatch was intended to all organisational units of the

22     Ministry of the Interior, and it ties in with the dispatches that we just

23     commented on.  It just orders stepped-up measures, and the emphasis is on

24     the danger that terrorists actions might be launched in the territory of

25     Serbia.

Page 12082

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see D237.

 3        Q.   It is your tab 26.  This is a dispatch dated the 24th of March,

 4     1999.  We can see that it was sent by the minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic,

 5     and it is a decision to take special measures under the jurisdiction of

 6     the government of the Republic of Serbia in view of the declaration of a

 7     state of imminent threat of war.  Can you please tell us whether this

 8     covers the entire territory of Serbia and tell us briefly what this

 9     dispatch is about, and you might also focus on item 2 of the decision.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you also indicate, Mr. Popovic, the exhibit

11     number of the previous dispatch, 597, of the 22nd of March.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the number of the exhibit is

13     P1206.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

16        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, please go ahead.

17        A.   This is a dispatch addressed to all chiefs of secretariats and

18     other heads of organisational units within the MUP.  It was sent on the

19     24th of March which was the day on which the NATO aggression against the

20     FRY began.  In this dispatch, the minister wished to inform his men about

21     the decision on the implementation of special measures under the

22     jurisdiction of the government of the Republic of Serbia, in view of the

23     declaration of a state of imminent threat of war.

24             In addition to the Ministry of the Interior, measures are ordered

25     also to all other organs and organisations belonging to the state

Page 12083

 1     administration as well as various companies and so on.  What is

 2     interesting here is that we should focus our activities on preparing the

 3     units to perform duties relating to resisting the enemy attacks against

 4     our country, so particularly these are combat duties and that was what

 5     the Ministry of the Interior was supposed to do as its primary task.

 6              However, it is also mentioned that specific security measures

 7     still need to be taken and that the emphasis should also be on the

 8     suppression of racketeering, black-market, all other types of illegal

 9     conduct, that the shortage of staple foods should be prevented and all

10     other obligations are listed as well.

11        Q.   I'm just reading the transcript, and once again it seems that

12     something is missing, so just to clarify.  Can you please tell me, when

13     you said this, did you mention something like the military Ministry of

14     the Interior, is there such a term at all?  Are you talking about the

15     Ministry of the Interior here and the tasks that the Ministry of the

16     Interior had?

17        A.   There is a no such thing as a military Ministry of the Interior.

18     There are territorial military organs which have territorial

19     responsibilities and jurisdictions, and I was talking about them.

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 65 ter

22     1809, please.  Your Honours, if you will I allow this and if my

23     colleagues from OTP have no objection, this is a document that was not

24     listed on the Defence 65 ter list, but we submitted it to the OTP, and we

25     notified them in a timely fashion, so I would use it now while

Page 12084

 1     questioning this witness, and it is just another dispatch.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  The document may already be an exhibit.  P1139.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If that is so, it will make the

 5     whole situation easier, but this is not the information I had and that is

 6     why --

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, Mr. Popovic.

 8             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   All right.  Mr. Pantelic, it is your tab 27.  The 25th of March,

10     1999.  It is a dispatch submitted by the minister of the interior,

11     Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic.  Can you please read it and tell us if it

12     covered the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia, and then I will

13     have several questions for you in connection with this dispatch.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  There seems to be some difficulty about the

15     document on the screen.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] The document is 65 ter 1809 from

17     the 65 ter list.  Or I could give you the number D011-3563.  Yes, that is

18     the document.

19        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, let me repeat the question.  Was this dispatch sent

20     all over the Republic of Serbia?

21        A.   Yes.  It was intended for all secretariats of the interior in the

22     territory of the Republic of Serbia.

23        Q.   All right.  The dispatch is signed by the minister of the

24     interior Vlajko Stojiljkovic.  Can you please have a look at the second

25     sentence which says:

Page 12085

 1             "You have received orders from me personally on how to proceed."

 2     I'm listening, please answer.

 3        A.   Well, this dispatch relates to everything that was ordered

 4     earlier, whether by the minister or by the chief of the crime suppression

 5     department or the chief of the public security sector.  It has to do with

 6     numerous speculations, crimes, and prohibited conduct of persons and

 7     taking of certain measures is required here.  What is interesting in this

 8     dispatch is that regardless of the difficult situation in connection with

 9     the supply of staple foods at the time, especially bread, was the request

10     that within one hour a report is to be sent to the ministry.  That was

11     practically impossible at the time.

12             It also says that if such cases should occur in the future,

13     arrest the persons without a judge and detain them in custody to await my

14     decision.  The Law on Criminal Procedure was in force at the time and the

15     decree on the implementation of the law on criminal procedure during a

16     time of war had not yet come into force.  As far as I remember, it came

17     into force only in early April or thereabouts.  Therefore, such conduct,

18     arresting persons without the judge and detaining them in custody until

19     the minister's decision, would be a criminal offence according to the law

20     that was in force at the time.

21             The last paragraph in the dispatch is also irritating.  It says

22     that if we permit such occurrences that we will suffer the same

23     consequences.  We who had spent our careers in police, and we commented

24     on this, were very much irritated by this sort of attitude of the

25     minister to us.  We did not express that openly, but dissatisfaction was

Page 12086

 1     evident.

 2        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, now that we are talking about the minister

 3     personally, tell us, what were the relations like within the Ministry of

 4     the Interior, and was it usual for the minister to send dispatches such

 5     as this one?

 6        A.   Let me answer the second part of your question first.  I never

 7     received a dispatch like this.  I have spent many years in the public

 8     security sector, but I never received such a dispatch, nor would I ever

 9     implement it in practice.

10             As for the relations within the ministry, the Ministry of the

11     Interior, many things have changed in the last few years, practically

12     since 1997 when Minister Stojiljkovic was appointed the head of the

13     ministry.  During my work in the ministry I remember that there were five

14     different ministers, and none of them ever worked in this way.

15     Practically he had taken on himself much more than he could actually

16     carry.  He had appointed assistant ministers from various lines of work.

17     These were four assistants, and each of them was in charge of certain

18     lines of work within the ministry.

19             He also had the chief of service who was behind all this, that

20     was happening with the assistants.  He withheld many of the jurisdictions

21     that the chief of service previously had, and all that caused much

22     problems within the Ministry of the Interior.  This was not reflected a

23     lot on the work of the secretariat of the interior because we were

24     responsible only to the chief of the public security service.  However,

25     relations were disturbed in terms of lines of work.

Page 12087

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Just to clarify some of what you mentioned in your

 2     answer.  Firstly, for the transcript, can you tell us something more

 3     about the role of the chief of the public security service because I

 4     think your answer was not reflected in the transcript.

 5        A.   Well, I have to talk about the earlier period when Mr. Sokolovic

 6     was the minister, that was the period before the year 1997.  At the time

 7     he had chief of the service who was at the same time assistant minister

 8     of the interior.  He was elected by the parliament of the Republic of

 9     Serbia to be the minister.  He was a politician, and he left the work to

10     professionals.

11             So at the time the chief of the public security service had full

12     responsibility, assistant ministers as such did not exist, chiefs of

13     administrations at the seat of the ministry reported for their work to

14     the chief of the service, and the minister was in charge of conducting

15     politics of representing the minister of the interior with the government

16     and the Assembly of the Republic of Serbia to security the funds and

17     proper conditions for the work of the ministry.  But as for the

18     professional duties of the members of the ministry, he left that segment

19     of work to professionals to perform.

20             So they were the ones who were in charge of the work, who

21     established what was to be done.  Of course, with the co-ordination of

22     the minister, with his full inspection and supervision.  However, in this

23     case everything was turned upside-down.  Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic

24     took all the authority on him.  He meddled in the work of the lines of

25     work within the ministry as well as the work of secretariats as

Page 12088

 1     territorial organisational units.

 2             I can claim that even though I rarely saw him, I believe only two

 3     or three times during his term in office, that even then we had conflicts

 4     because we could not understand each other when it came to resolving

 5     certain personnel problems, but also professional security problems.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic, but if I could refer you back to my

 7     question and the role of the chief of the public security sector starting

 8     from the moment when Mr. Stojiljkovic became minister of the Ministry of

 9     the Interior.  And also what you said concerning this in your previous

10     question [as interpreted], so what was his role once he was appointed

11     minister, and you can immediately tell us where do you get this

12     information, what is the source of your information?

13        A.   I believe that I already answered a substantial portion of your

14     question.  The relationships within the ministry were the topic of our

15     conversations.  I went to the ministry at least once a week and on those

16     occasions I visited chiefs of all the administrations within the Ministry

17     of the Interior.  I spoke to them, we made certain arrangements.

18     Obviously I had to be given some directions concerning my future work.  I

19     had to be informed concerning the overall security situation.  And on

20     those occasions during the unofficial exchanges, there were quite a few

21     comments concerning the method of work of the then-ministry [as

22     interpreted], and this is something that chiefs of all the

23     administrations were familiar with because many of them had significant

24     problems.

25             He had his own point of view concerning these problems.  He came

Page 12089

 1     from the world of politics, from the world of the economy.  He used to be

 2     chairman of the Chamber of Commerce.  He now came to a state

 3     administration body, and he had to find his way.  It would have been

 4     appropriate if he allowed the professionals to carry on their tasks,

 5     rather than to take all the authority upon himself, which is something

 6     that he did.

 7             During the war operations of NATO, I also went to the chief of

 8     the sector and chiefs of other administrations including Dragan Ilic who

 9     was head of the crime suppression administration, and I was present in

10     his office, I believe it was on Topcider hill, this is where his war

11     office was, and within half an hour the minister called him -- or within

12     half an hour the minister called him three times and issued orders

13     concerning certain tasks.

14             Something similar was experienced by other chiefs within the

15     secretariat, so when we met and talked to one another and when we had

16     some conversations aside from our official tasks, in a way we came to an

17     agreement that the things within the ministry were not functioning as

18     they were supposed to.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me at that time what was the function

20     of Mr. Draganic?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Dragan Ilic.

22        A.   Dragan Ilic was chief of the administration of crime police.  In

23     1997, assistant ministers were appointed at the level of the ministry, so

24     apart from the chief of public security sector, there were three

25     additional assistant ministers.  Each of them was in charge of a single

Page 12090

 1     line of work.  Regardless of the fact that there were chiefs of

 2     administrations at the level of the ministry who were directly

 3     responsible for their work to the chief of the public security sector,

 4     the first of them was Radomir Markovic who was responsible for criminal

 5     police work, and in addition, for analysis and information analysis,

 6     although there were already chiefs in charge of this within the sector.

 7             When he became chief of state security sector, he was not

 8     controlled through a particular line, so to say, so when he was chief of

 9     administration of criminal police, he was directly linked to the

10     minister, and he received tasks directly from the minister.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] I would just kindly ask you for

13     the needs of the transcript on page 21, line 22.  It should state

14     minister rather than ministry.  This follows from the logic of this

15     answer, so I would not ask the witness to repeat this answer.

16        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, in relation to this dispatch which was the basis

17     for your answer, if you look at the very top of this document, it says:

18     Valjevo SUP, then 10 and some letters and 23:16.  Can you see this

19     number?

20        A.   It is hardly legible but, yes, I can see it.

21        Q.   In one part of your answer you said that you never received this

22     dispatch, so could you please explain what was this all about and what

23     does this Valjevo SUP actually mean?

24        A.   I don't believe that I said that I did not receive this dispatch.

25     I never stated this.  This dispatch was sent to everybody.  And what was

Page 12091

 1     written here, Valjevo SUP, I can recognise my own handwriting, so this

 2     dispatch was sent, among other secretariats, also to the secretariat of

 3     the interior of Valjevo, but I did not forward it because I found it

 4     absurd, and this is why I wrote down here that it had to be archived.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I believe this was entered into transcript a

 6     bit differently, so we've now clarified this.

 7             My next question for you is the following:  Was the minister

 8     personally ever present at the collegium meetings that you held at your

 9     secretariat, so would he come to the secretariats, was he in touch with

10     the chiefs and people who were subordinated to you?

11        A.   The minister very rarely visited secretariats.  He would visit

12     them in certain situations if some personnel had to be replaced, or, for

13     example, if the territory of one of the secretariats was visited by some

14     disasters or if some accidents occurred there.

15             Given that during the war operations Valjevo was bombed by NATO

16     on 21 occasions and the only building of the secretariat of the interior

17     in central Serbia, apart from the territory of the Autonomous Province of

18     Kosovo that was hit was that one, it was hit by NATO projectiles on two

19     occasions, and for this reason we moved out to our war location.  There

20     were no casualties, but he felt the need to come visit our secretariat

21     and see the conditions in which we operated.

22             Chief of the public security sector, Mr. Djordjevic, came with

23     the minister and also the assistant minister and head of the general

24     affairs administration, Mr. Zekovic.  This meeting that they were present

25     at the minister and chiefs of the ministry was held in a small room at

Page 12092

 1     our war location and from the territory of the secretariat of the

 2     interior, we had there chiefs of departments of the interior and also

 3     chiefs of the internal organisational units within municipalities.

 4             I opened that meeting, and the chiefs of organisational units

 5     reported about the security problems each of them concerning their own

 6     remit.  I can't remember many details, but I do believe that neither the

 7     chief of the public security sector nor the chief of general affairs

 8     administration uttered anything during this meeting.

 9             After my final word, that is, after the reports that we received

10     from the chiefs of organisational units and after my conclusions, the

11     minister directly ordered what was it that we were supposed to do in the

12     following period in which way and within which time-limits we were

13     supposed to do that.

14             During that meeting, I also got the impression that he took it

15     upon himself -- that he took all the authorities of the chiefs of

16     organisational units upon himself, so all the organisational units that

17     belonged to the Ministry of the Interior.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we now see Exhibit D238.  I

20     apologise, before we do that, I would kindly ask for the previous

21     document, I would kindly tender it into evidence.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00784.

24             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could now see the Exhibit

25     D238 on the screen.

Page 12093

 1        Q.   This is your tab 28, Mr. Pantelic.  I believe it is dated 25th of

 2     March, 1999.  If you could very briefly tell us whether this dispatch was

 3     intended for the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia, whether

 4     these are the ordinary tasks that fall within remit of the public

 5     security sector, and who signed this dispatch, and whether this was usual

 6     occurrence for the minister to issue this kind of dispatch which is,

 7     again, related to everything you stated earlier?

 8        A.   This is a dispatch that as far as I can see was sent on the 25th

 9     of March, so the aggression was already well underway, and the federal

10     government order certain measures to the ministries, and the minister of

11     the interior also ordered us certain things that we had to undertake in

12     those particular circumstances.

13             I would not like to spend too much time on these points.  This

14     dispatch was sent by the minister, but even before we undertook similar

15     measures, so basically this dispatch had no additional meaning for us.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

17             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could now please see on the

18     screen the Exhibit Number D440.  I apologise -- no, this is your tab

19     number 30.  We will later come to your tab 29.

20        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, the date here is March the 27th, 1999.  Dispatch

21     number 1352.  Once again I would like to know whether this was intended

22     for the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia, if you could briefly

23     comment on the fact that this dispatch was sent by assistant to the

24     minister, major General Stojan Misic.

25        A.   As you've said, this dispatch was sent on the 27th of March and

Page 12094

 1     it regards the government decision to proclaim the state of war and the

 2     order to carry out various preparation measures.  It is related to

 3     updating of lists of foreigners with permanent residence and issuing of

 4     passports to soldiers during their military service, military conscripts

 5     and professional soldiers.

 6             In the situation of the kind after the NATO aggression was

 7     initiated many people tried to avoid their military service in one way or

 8     the other.  For that reason, this dispatch was sent out by assistant to

 9     the minister Stojan Misic, who was in charge of border-related tasks,

10     administrative tasks, foreigners and so on, also liaison and so on.

11     Later on he was also in charge of analysis, information analysis,

12     fire-fighting and so on.  So these are the tasks that fell under his

13     remit.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now if we could see the Exhibit

16     D255.

17        Q.   This is your tab 29, dated 26th of March, 1999.  Once again if

18     you could tell us whether it was intended for the entire territory of the

19     Republic of Serbia, what was this dispatch all about, and if you could

20     comment briefly on who signed it.  We can see here that this was

21     Major-General Dragan Ilic, chief of administration.

22        A.   Well, this dispatch was also sent on the 26th of March to all the

23     secretariats, and it ordered measures that were previously ordered, who

24     knows how many times, so in any way we were supposed to prevent the

25     prices of staple foods from increasing creation of unnecessary reserves.

Page 12095

 1     We usually talked about flour, oil, energy sources and so on.  So as

 2     chief of administration, he could write such a dispatch because he was in

 3     charge of these tasks, so the topic here was to prevent crime, which was

 4     one of the tasks within his remit.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the Exhibit

 7     D253.

 8        Q.   This is your tab 31.  This is a dispatch from the chief of public

 9     security department number 1353 of the 27th of March, 1999.  And it has

10     to do with the finding of missile-guiding device, the so-called locators.

11     Once again I will ask to you tell us whether this was intended for the

12     entire territory of the Republic of Serbia, and we can see under

13     paragraph 3 that members of the traffic police are mentioned, so did this

14     fit in with the description of the regular tasks and duties of the public

15     security department?  Could we just hear a brief comment from you?

16        A.   This dispatch was also addressed to everyone.  It is a so-called

17     circular dispatch as we called it.  It had do with attempts to find the

18     so-called locators that were placed close to important facilities and

19     roads.  It is described here in detail how they are to be identified, how

20     they can be de-activated, and it is also mentioned that those from the

21     ministry who were in charge of that should be informed about that.

22             As for the members of the traffic police, that they will conduct

23     searches of the main roads and more important regional roads, this was

24     just logical because they performed their regular tasks and duties on

25     such roads or there somewhere in the vicinity, and they are always able

Page 12096

 1     do something in connection with this dispatch.  So these were their

 2     regular tasks and duties.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D257 now.

 5        Q.   It is your tab 32.  This is a dispatch dated the 6th of April

 6     1999.  And my question for you is whether this was also intended for the

 7     entire territory of the Republic of Serbia, and if you look at paragraph

 8     1 it is a decree on the implementation of the Law on Criminal Procedure

 9     during the state of war, and there is a signature chief of

10     administration, Major-General Dragan Ilic.  What is your comment on this

11     dispatch?

12        A.   Rather than dwell on certain provisions of this dispatch, let me

13     say that the organs of the Ministry of the Interior were given somewhat

14     extended authority in comparison to the authority that they had according

15     to the Law on Criminal Procedure that was in force.  In the decree, which

16     the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia adopted, it says

17     that the decree on the implementation of the Law on Criminal Procedure

18     shall only be used in situations when this is not contrary to the

19     implementation of the Law on Criminal Procedure.  So the organs of the

20     interior are given certain authorities to carry out certain investigation

21     activities without the presence of a prosecutor so that they can begin

22     the preliminary investigative procedure, but they were obliged to inform

23     a prosecutor post festum but very urgently about all that.

24             They could also remand someone in custody up to 30 days.  I mean,

25     the organs of the interior, though the maximum of time to keep someone in

Page 12097

 1     custody was up to three days according to the Law on Criminal Procedure

 2     at the time.  So there were other prerogatives as well.  For instance,

 3     those relating to arresting persons, opening letters, and so on and so

 4     forth.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to move to

 7     another subject, and I think it's time for the break now, so if you agree

 8     this might be a proper moment for the first break.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, we'll have the first break, and we will

10     resume at 4.15.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, before we continue with exhibits, I will ask you to

18     clarify some of the answers you have given in connection with page 20,

19     line 7.  I think that this was not properly recorded.  You were talking

20     about the period when Mr. Sokolovic was the minister, and just to clarify

21     this, can you tell me who was the chief of the public security sector,

22     and what additional duty did he have?

23        A.   The chief of the public security sector was at the same time the

24     deputy minister of the interior.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And one more thing that I wish to clarify with you,

Page 12098

 1     it is on page 23 in lines 5 to 9.  Mr. Pantelic, here you talked about

 2     the moment when Mr. Radomir Markovic became chief of the state security

 3     sector and the fact that Mr. Ilic had his own line of work at the time

 4     and what sort of relation he had with the minister.  So if you could

 5     please repeat from the moment when Radomir Markovic became the chief of

 6     the public security sector, what was the rank had by Mr. Ilic, and what

 7     were his relations with Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic.

 8        A.   I said that earlier at the moment when Radomir Markovic became

 9     chief of the state security sector, the chief of administration, Dragan

10     Ilic, did not have any line control by the responsible assistant

11     minister.  He was independent, and he was attached to the minister in a

12     way.

13        Q.   Your answer is recorded in one way, and you answered in different

14     way again.  Can you please repeat the last sentence.  He was independent

15     and what did you also say, let me not repeat that.

16        A.   He was independent, that means he did not have a line control by

17     the assistant minister, so he was directly connected with the Ministry of

18     the Interior as the chief of administration.

19        Q.   It is all right now, thank you.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit P1050.

21        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, it is your tab 33.  This is the dispatch.  The

22     number is 2571, dated the 9th of April, 1999.  My question for you is

23     whether it was intended for the entire territory of the Republic of

24     Serbia, and we'll see in paragraph 1 that that is the same paragraph 2

25     that what is regulated here are work relations and -- just a second,

Page 12099

 1     please.

 2             For the third time we have an answer to the same question, so I

 3     have to ask the Trial Chamber for their allowance for page 31, line 18.

 4     Once again, it's not what the witness said.  Can you repeat once again

 5     what was it about Dragan Ilic, who was he directly subordinated to?

 6        A.   Let me repeat again.  Dragan Ilic, as the chief of the crime

 7     police administration, was directly subordinated to the minister of the

 8     interior.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now return to the Exhibit 1050.  It is the

10     decree on regulating employment relations and disciplinary

11     responsibility.  Can you please look at the first part and briefly

12     comment on that and then later I will ask you to comment on other parts

13     of this dispatch, but we'll do it piecemeal because it's a longish

14     document.

15        A.   It says at the beginning that a decree on Internal Affairs during

16     a state of war was published in the "Official Gazette."  It came into

17     effect on the following day and that was why the dispatch was sent.  What

18     was the difference between the specific situation ordered here and the

19     previous situation in which the discipline of employees was regulated in

20     detail, both in the Law on Internal Affairs and on the decree of the

21     government on the disciplinary responsibility of employees of the

22     Ministry of the Interior?  This Law on Decree regulated the matter in

23     detail.

24             However, now we were in a situation that during the state of war

25     a decree on Internal Affairs during the state of war was adopted, and it

Page 12100

 1     regulated in detail the disciplinary proceedings.  The difference was

 2     that the disciplinary proceedings were shortened as much as possible and

 3     that in this case when there were more serious violations of duty only

 4     the chief of the secretariat was responsible.  Previously there would be

 5     first a preliminary proceedings which meant that the immediate superior,

 6     if it was established that someone might have breached discipline, would

 7     first take the statement of such a person, then file a report, then

 8     submit the report to the chief of the secretariat, and the chief of

 9     secretariat, if he believed that there was a basis for that, he would

10     then submit it to the disciplinary prosecutor who would, together with

11     the disciplinary investigator, would conduct the entire proceedings, and

12     eventually the problem would be judged by a disciplinary court.

13             There was also a second instance, and in the second instance, the

14     higher disciplinary court within the Ministry of the Interior was

15     responsible.  However, by this decree it was allowed to the chief of

16     secretariat who was firstly authorised by the chief of the sector of the

17     minister of the interior could make decisions even in cases of serious

18     violations of duty without the disciplinary proceedings in the typical

19     sense of the word, that is to say, without the disciplinary investigator

20     and disciplinary court.

21        Q.   Thank you.  That was just an answer to what I wanted to present

22     to you, so I will ask you to confirm that.

23             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see the next

24     page of this document now.

25        Q.   After items 1 and 2, that's maybe the fifth paragraph from the

Page 12101

 1     top in B/C/S where it says:

 2             "The chief of the department of public security has authorised

 3     the heads of organisational units to impose prescribed measures and

 4     sentences for serious violations of employment obligations and duties."

 5             Was that what you just told us?

 6        A.   Yes, that is precisely that.  The chief of the department of

 7     public security in accordance with this decree authorised the heads, that

 8     is to say, the chiefs of territorial organisational units, that is to

 9     say, the secretariats, and together with this dispatch, the written

10     authorisation should have been submitted as well, allowing them to

11     conduct disciplinary proceedings in accordance with this decree.

12             And of course they were allowed to impose penalties.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you also please look at the bottom of the page in

14     Serbian.  It is the last sentence which begins by the words:

15             "The implementation of the said decree implies the change of

16     procedure in first instance because a disciplinary penalty and penalty

17     for a serious violation of obligations and duties shall be made by the

18     head of the organisational unit at the proposal of the immediate

19     superior."

20             Could you please previously comment on that.

21        A.   If a direct superior learns that there was a breach of

22     discipline, whether it was minor or major breach of discipline, he should

23     first interview the employee, take a statement, then also interview the

24     witnesses of the incident, and submit a report to the chief of

25     secretariat.  The chief of secretariat, by authorisation of the chief of

Page 12102

 1     the public security sector, will then make the relevant decision and

 2     impose a disciplinary penalty.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  Let us just try to connect this with a

 4     specific situation on the ground in connection with the Special Police

 5     units which you sent to the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.  Was this

 6     an information that you would receive as the head of an organisational

 7     unit?

 8        A.   Yes, certainly.  We were informed even earlier.  For example, we

 9     could see what it looked like if a member of a Special Police Unit who

10     was sent to carry out special security tasks in the territory of Kosovo

11     and Metohija committed a breach of discipline.  In that case, his

12     immediate superior under whose command he is at the time, it could be

13     chief of department or it could be a chief of a police station, whoever

14     it was at the moment he noticed such a breach of discipline, he would

15     initiate the proceedings and even though he was in the territory of

16     Kosovo and Metohija, he would then submit a disciplinary report to the

17     chief of the secretariat who was territorially in jurisdiction for

18     sending this Special Police unit to the territory of the Autonomous

19     Province of Kosovo and Metohija.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see D259.  It

22     is your tab 34.

23        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, this is dispatch dated 9 of April 1999.  My

24     question is whether this was intended for the entire territory of the

25     Republic of Serbia.  If you look at this, you can see that it refers to a

Page 12103

 1     large number of decrees.  Could you tell us who sent this dispatch?

 2        A.   This dispatch was sent to all the secretariats of the interior.

 3     It was sent by assistant minister Stojan Misic, and it refers to decrees

 4     that the Ministry of the Interior had to abide by.  The government of the

 5     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ever since the beginning of the state of

 6     war and thereafter adopted about 15 such decrees.  And only four of them

 7     fell within the remit of the Ministry of the Interior.  One of them was

 8     the decree on the Internal Affairs during a state of war.  Then we had

 9     the decree on gathering of citizens, decree on residence, and decree on

10     personal identification papers during a state of war.

11             Not much changed after these decrees were adopted, but what needs

12     to be said is the decree on gathering of citizens during a state of war

13     prescribed that public meetings could be held only upon issuing of an

14     approval by the territorial competent body.  Before that it was

15     sufficient to apply for such a permit.  The decree on residence of

16     citizens regulated that all persons older than 14 years of age had to

17     register their residence or temporary residence within the shortest

18     possible period of time.

19             And finally the decree on personal identification documents

20     during the state of war also reduced the age limit for issuing of an ID

21     from 18 to 14 years of age, so these were the regulations that stemmed

22     out from the decree of the government and that fell within the remit of

23     the Ministry of the Interior.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, who sent this dispatch?

25        A.   As I said earlier, it was sent by the assistant minister,

Page 12104

 1     Mr. Stojan Misic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the Exhibit Number

 4     D260, please, on the screen.

 5        Q.   This is your tab 36.  This is a dispatch dated 11th of April,

 6     1999.  I would like to know whether it was intended for the entire

 7     territory of the Republic of Serbia, who sent it, and we can see that the

 8     goal here was a single handling, single method of handling of

 9     humanitarian aid consignments.

10        A.   Well, in order to avoid any abuse concerning the deliveries of

11     humanitarian aid and earlier, different security organs noted that there

12     were occurrences of this kind.  For this reason we received this

13     dispatch, and also the federal government adopted a decree which

14     regulated this particular issue.

15             So at a session of federal government, the federal ministry for

16     health care and social policy was designated as the body that needed to

17     co-ordinate these tasks.  Also it was determined that it was the Yugoslav

18     Red Cross organisation which was supposed to receive such consignments.

19     So the goal was here to prevent any mishandling or abuse, and this

20     dispatch regulated uniform handling of consignments in the entire

21     territory of the Republic of Serbia.  I don't believe that it is

22     necessary to go through all of these measures because I think it's

23     self-evident.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the Exhibit Number

Page 12105

 1     P1207.

 2        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, this is your tab 37.  I would kindly ask you now to

 3     tell us once again whether this was intended for the entire territory of

 4     the Republic of Serbia.  In the last sentence of first paragraph we can

 5     see that in addition to measures sorted earlier, the following must be

 6     done.  Given that there aren't this many measures listed here, could you

 7     please read them in order to be able to provide us with a brief

 8     explanation, and could you please tell us whether these measures fell

 9     under regular remit of the public security sector, and this dispatch was

10     signed by Mr. Djordjevic.

11        A.   This dispatch was sent to everybody, and these are certainly

12     regular tasks of the members of the public security sector.  Item 1 calls

13     for co-operation with town and municipal civilian protection staffs in

14     order to organise members of hunting, marksmen, scouting, mountaineering,

15     and other organisations in order to be able to find locators which we

16     described a short while ago.  So we had to engage all the other forces

17     within the society in an attempt to prevent the damage by NATO attacks to

18     the facilities in the Republic of Serbia.

19             Item 2 says that with district chiefs and other subjects in

20     charge of implementing the spring sowing plan, we were supposed to take

21     control over oil derivatives and artificial fertilisers and similar.

22     This is something that we did immediately prior to this state of war and

23     later on.

24             And thirdly, we were asked to prevent any kind of black-marketing

25     activities.  This is something that we already discussed here today, and

Page 12106

 1     we could see at least four dispatches concerning this particular subject

 2     matter.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit Number

 5     D261.  This is your tab 38.

 6        Q.   This is a dispatch dated 19th of April, 1999.  My question is as

 7     follows:  Was it intended for the entire territory of the Republic of

 8     Serbia?  Could you tell us in briefly what it is all about, and if you

 9     could please focus your attention on item 2, which says that the

10     increased migration of citizens leaving Kosovo and Metohija for places

11     outside this area has been noticed and that they submitted requests to

12     register their residents, and this dispatch was sent by Mr. Stojan Misic,

13     assistant minister.

14        A.   This dispatch was sent on the 19th of April to everybody.  It was

15     sent by the assistant to the minister, Mr. Stojan Misic, who was in

16     charge of this particular line of work.  Ever since the NATO aggression

17     was initiated against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia we noticed very

18     extensive migration because bombing of the territory of Kosovo and

19     Metohija occurred daily, and the consequences were very harsh.

20             In such a situation many Serbs fled to the territory of the

21     Republic of Serbia.  This created certain problems related with their

22     registration.  So registration of their temporary residence or their

23     residence, their addresses and everything else.  And this dispatch was

24     sent precisely for that reason.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 12107

 1             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the Exhibit

 2     D262.

 3        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, this is dispatch dated 21st of April, 1999.  My

 4     question is whether it was intended for the entire territory of the

 5     Republic of Serbia, this dispatch was sent by General-Major Zekovic,

 6     assistant to the minister.  And in paragraph 1 it says:

 7             "We provide you with explanations concerning the decree on

 8     Internal Affairs during the state of war."

 9             You talked about this when we saw one of the previous dispatches,

10     so could you please take a look at this one and see what it's all about

11     and then confirm if this follows the same line that you described

12     earlier.

13        A.   Well, this dispatch simply precis the provisions of the decree on

14     Internal Affairs during a state of war.  Here the disciplinary

15     proceedings are regulated in detail, disciplinary proceedings against

16     members of the Ministry of the Interior.  I think I explained a short

17     while ago how these proceedings were to be initiated, who could file

18     reports, disciplinary reports, whom to, and so on.  So this is simply a

19     more precise explanation of what was already stipulated by the decree on

20     Internal Affairs during the state of war.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the Exhibit

22     D407.

23        Q.   This is your tab number 40.  Mr. Pantelic, the document dated

24     23rd of April, 1999 says:  "Daily review of current events and

25     occurrences regarding public security for 22nd of April 1999."  Before we

Page 12108

 1     start reviewing this document and before you receive my question

 2     concerning this document, could you tell us in which forms of information

 3     existed and in which way were the information conveyed in 1998 and 1999

 4     within the public security sector of the Ministry of the Interior?

 5        A.   There were three types of reporting.  First of all, urgent

 6     reporting, daily reporting, and periodical reporting.  These types of

 7     reporting were based on an instruction on reporting that was developed by

 8     the Ministry of the Interior, and that instruction also included a list

 9     of current security events that the ministry was supposed to be informed

10     about.

11             When it comes to urgent reporting, it was carried out in line

12     with that list, which listed with precision all the security events that

13     had to be reported urgently to the ministry by telephone.  As a chief of

14     the secretariat, I also had to report concerning such events to certain

15     political structures in the territory in which my secretariat was.

16             When it comes to daily reporting, it was also regulated by the

17     previously mentioned instruction.  Daily reporting went from the lowest

18     possible organisational unit of my secretariat, that is from the

19     department of the interior at the level of municipalities, through the

20     departments and sections at the seat of the secretariat and the person in

21     charge of the duty shift collected the information on the current events

22     for the previous day, for the previous period from zero hundred hours to

23     2400 hours.

24             Such information were then conveyed by the chief or head of the

25     duty shift to the administration for analysis of the Ministry of the

Page 12109

 1     Interior.  So priority were received by the operational centre of the

 2     ministry and then forwarded to the analysis administration.  And there

 3     again in line with that instruction on reporting and information certain

 4     analysis were carried out, and on the basis of received information, they

 5     would come up with this kind of daily review of current events and

 6     occurrences related to public security.

 7             And then from the analysis administration in Belgrade, this kind

 8     of daily review was submitted to all the secretariats of the interior so

 9     that they could have an overall picture concerning the public security

10     situation in the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia.

11             This was not a confidential document.  As you can see it is not

12     classified, and it was submitted to all the territorial organisational

13     units.  And at the seat of the ministry, the chief of sector could decide

14     who such daily review would be submitted to.

15             The third type of reporting was periodical reporting, so these

16     were monthly reports or quarterly reports, and annual reports.  Although

17     in the meantime, if we had a particular problem we had to follow it by a

18     special report.  So the monthly reports obviously regarded the public

19     security situation for a given month for the entire territory of the

20     Republic of Serbia, and this was rather similar to this daily review,

21     apart from the fact that they were more comprehensive, and particular

22     accent was placed on some lines of work.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look in more

25     detail concerning this particular exhibit.  So this is daily review of

Page 12110

 1     current events and occurrences relating to public security for 22nd of

 2     April, 1999.  We can see that the date of this dispatch is April the

 3     23rd, so it concerns the events that occurred on the previous day.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Here on page 1 we can see characteristic events and occurrences

 6     and then in paragraph 1 we can see on 21st of April, 1999, using six or

 7     eight projectiles, refugee colony of Meja was hit.

 8             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Before we proceed, I would kindly

 9     ask the following page to be shown in both languages where we can see on

10     the 24th of April, near the village Zagradska Hoca near Prizren, and here

11     it says that there was a terrorist attack and that in this attack a

12     member of the reserved forces was killed.

13             My question for you is:  Are anti-terrorist activities or

14     operations mentioned anywhere in this daily review, anti-terrorist

15     operations that took place in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

16        A.   These reports never mentioned anti-terrorist operations.  But

17     terrorist operations conducted by the Albanian separatists were

18     mentioned.  This review only briefly described in two or three sentences

19     what happened, in which area and what the occasion was.  Hundreds of such

20     reports have passed through my hands, and they never mentioned which

21     measures were taken by the members of the public security in the

22     territory of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija in order to

23     deal with certain situations.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let us just look at page 3 of this document as well.

25     We'll see in the first paragraph that the secretariat in Kragujevac is

Page 12111

 1     mentioned, that it arrested a certain person and remanded him in custody,

 2     and the next one is the secretariat in Smederevo and so on.  My question

 3     for you is the following:  Did this daily report apply all events that

 4     fell within the regular activities of the public security sector in the

 5     entire territory of the Republic of Serbia?

 6        A.   These were certainly the regular activities of the members of the

 7     minister of the interior in the territory of the entire Republic of

 8     Serbia.  In accordance with the instructions on reporting, on the basis

 9     of which this daily report was drawn up, a selection of the more

10     important security incidents or events was made, so this is the basis on

11     which it was made.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please see

13     D408 now.

14        Q.   It is tab 41 in your binder, Mr. Pantelic.  This is a dispatch

15     number 1290 dated the 24th of April, 1999.  Once again, it is a daily

16     review of characteristic events and occurrences in the public security

17     area for the point throughout April 1999.  The question is the same.

18     Does this document anywhere mention anti-terrorist actions or actions

19     carried out by the units which were stationed in the territory of Kosovo

20     and Metohija?  Please have a look at the document.

21        A.   This report again mentions terrorist attacks on members of the

22     police on two or three occasions or four, as many as are listed here.

23     However, no anti-terrorist activities are mentioned as far as I can see.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  Once again just for the sake of

25     transcript on page 44 in line 3, when we talk about these documents,

Page 12112

 1     these are daily reviews of current events and occurrences, these are the

 2     reports of the public security sector, right?

 3        A.   Yes, certainly.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see -- but, no,

 6     while we are looking at this document, D408, if we could see page 3 in

 7     both versions.

 8        Q.   Please have a look at that.  It says that there were 65 traffic

 9     accidents in which three persons lost their lives and 16 were lightly or

10     seriously injured.  Once again my question is:  Were these regular duties

11     of the police from the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia?

12        A.   I think I do not need to answer the question because the title

13     says daily review of current events and occurrences from the area of the

14     public security for that date.  So these were the regular duties of the

15     members of the Ministry of the Interior.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  Will you please now have a look at the

17     Exhibit D409, which is your tab 42.  If you can just briefly in two

18     sentences comment on that.  It is another daily review of current events

19     and occurrences for the 25th of April.

20        A.   All of these dispatches look like one another, so in this

21     dispatch, just like in the previous ones, we can see that it was sent to

22     all heads of territorial organisational units in the territory of the

23     Republic of Serbia, and it lists the current security events which took

24     place during the previous day.  Let me not move from one to the other.

25     It is a fact that there are several events here which are in connection

Page 12113

 1     with the terrorist activities of the Albanian separatists in Kosovo, and

 2     like in the other dispatches, there are also problems relating to public

 3     law and order, protection of personal property and security of citizens,

 4     then control of traffic, control of border crossings, implementation of

 5     the Law on Fire-arms, and so on and so forth.

 6             So that was the overview of all current security problems.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at

 9     D411.

10        Q.   Once again just a very brief comment.  It is your tab 44.  And it

11     is a daily review of current events and occurrences dated the 27th of

12     April, 1999.

13        A.   There is nothing special I would have to add to everything I just

14     said earlier.  It all applies to this review of current events and

15     occurrences.  Some terrorist actions in the territory of the Autonomous

16     Province of Kosovo are mentioned as well as some serious crimes committed

17     in the territory of the Republic of Serbia on the previous day.

18        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, I could show you one or two documents like these,

19     but in order to save time you have seen several of these daily reports

20     now.  My question for you is this:  In any of the daily reports, which

21     you received as the chief of secretariat, did you ever see any mention of

22     any anti-terrorist operations that were being conducted in the territory

23     of Kosovo and Metohija during the year 1998 and 1999?

24        A.   Such anti-terrorist operations were not mentioned in these daily

25     reports for the simple reason that they did not fit with the instruction

Page 12114

 1     on reporting which the Ministry of the Interior submitted to us.  The

 2     instructions only mentioned terrorist activities, but not the measures

 3     that were taken.  So we did not have any information about that or

 4     received them through these reports.  At least, I do not remember that it

 5     was so.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit P1208.

 8        Q.   And it is your tab 46.  Mr. Pantelic, this is dispatch number 206

 9     dated the 29th of April, 1999.  SUP to everyone, 1 to 33, to the chief,

10     and it was signed by the chief of public security department

11     Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.  Could you please have a look at

12     paragraph 3 of this dispatch which says:

13             "The MUP staff in Pristina will propose employees who have been

14     engaged on special security tasks in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija

15     for decorations, early promotions, or awards."

16             My question for you is the following:  Could you propose any

17     employees who were engaged in the special security tasks for decorations,

18     early promotions, or awards?  That is to say, your members of the Special

19     Police unit which you sent to Kosovo and Metohija?

20        A.   We have already discussed this at length, and we noted that by

21     sending Special Police units to carry out special security tasks in the

22     territory of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, all the

23     authority that the chief of secretariat had over them were temporarily

24     frozen, and in connection with paragraph 3 of this dispatch which was

25     sent to all chiefs of secretariats, I was not informed about what was

Page 12115

 1     being done down there, how, in what manner, how did the men conduct

 2     during the anti-terrorist operations, how did they carry out their

 3     regular duties and tasks.  Only the staff and the commanding officers who

 4     directly commanded these units in Kosovo and Metohija could know that.

 5             Therefore, I could not in any event propose these employees, that

 6     is to say, these policemen who were members of special units sent there

 7     for any decorations or awards.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  This is the last document I will show

 9     you today.

10             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see D254.

11        Q.   Which is your tab 47.  Mr. Pantelic, this is dispatch number 1015

12     dated the 4th of May, 1999.  It says, SUP all the chief signed by

13     assistant minister chief of sector, Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.

14     Could you please look at this dispatch more closely, especially the first

15     paragraph.

16             If you could please comment on this and say if these were duties

17     and tasks which you focused on during the NATO bombing campaign.  Later

18     on we shall also focus on the measures, which are mentioned, in the next

19     part of this dispatch.

20        A.   As for this dispatch, at least with this I have some experience

21     because Valjevo was bombed 21 times during the NATO war operations, the

22     relevant measures and activities needed to be taken and carried out in

23     order to address the situation in the best possible manner.  In that

24     sense, this dispatch was formulated.  The idea was to save human lives

25     and property.  It is noted that the members of the ministry have

Page 12116

 1     displayed high levels of professionalism, expertise, and extreme

 2     dedication in their interventions, however, members of this ministry have

 3     also been injured during the interventions.  What is requested by this

 4     dispatch confirms once again what we had been doing in continuity even

 5     before all that, that the places where NATO would attack needed to be

 6     identified, then these places needed to be secured by the necessary

 7     number of policemen, the traffic needed to be redirected so that the

 8     citizens would be protected.  Also, the timely arrival of firefighters

 9     and ambulances needed to be assured.  Then it said that first aid needed

10     to be provided to the employees who were injured, that the fires needed

11     to be extinguished, that we should take into account human lives and try

12     to save them.  So fires should be extinguished only when it's save and

13     secure and when it is necessary, when there is a possibility to save a

14     part of a facility that was hit.  And also to use the equipment in a

15     rational and cautious manner.  So that was the gist of this dispatch

16     which was sent by the --

17        Q.   Thank you.  You told us that you had great experience and that

18     Valjevo and the territory of your secretariat was unfortunately bombed 21

19     times.  What was the procedure for the secretariat after each of the

20     bombings?  What did do you, who did you report to, and in what way?

21        A.   In accordance to the rules of the organisation of the Ministry of

22     the Interior I directly reported for my work to the chief of the public

23     security sector.  That means that I had in any case to report to him

24     about the situation which were the result of the attacks of NATO air

25     force.  I had to report to him which facilities were hit, what was the

Page 12117

 1     damage, were there any casualties, and what were the measures that needed

 2     to be taken in order to address the situation.

 3             In addition to the fact that I reported to him personally, the

 4     duty service of my secretariat sent reports along its own line to the

 5     operations centre of the Ministry of the Interior.

 6        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, my direct question is whether after each NATO

 7     attack you personally reported to Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic about what had

 8     happened?

 9        A.   By the nature of things, I was obliged to report to him, and I

10     did that in every situation when that was possible.  If I did not manage

11     to get in touch with him on one specific day, if he was away at a certain

12     time and we also had problems with telephone lines, I would manage to

13     reach him in a day or two, then we got in touch with each other, we

14     talked.  I also went to Belgrade to his war-time location while he was

15     stationed in Lola Ivo Ribar Street, and I reported to him about the

16     problems that we are talking about now.

17             So I had frequent contacts with him through special telephone

18     lines up until the moment when the building of the secretariat of the MUP

19     in Valjevo was destroyed by NATO aircraft projectiles, and later I used

20     the regular phone lines because the -- the telephone switchboards for

21     special lines had been destroyed.  We tended to avoid cell phones because

22     none of the relay systems or base stations which conveyed the impulses of

23     cell phones were not bombed, and we knew that the aggressor was listening

24     to all of our conversations.  That was why we avoided mobile telephone

25     lines, and we talked either on secure telephone lines or more rarely

Page 12118

 1     through regular telephone lines, or we had personal contacts.  In

 2     addition to that, the courier service operated between Valjevo and

 3     Belgrade twice a week so that we also conveyed information by that means.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I'm interested in your personal contacts with

 5     Mr. Djordjevic.  First of all, when you contacted him through these

 6     special telephone lines, where did you call him, and how did you get in

 7     touch with him by using these special telephone lines?  That is to say,

 8     where was the special telephone which you called located?

 9        A.   The so-called special, that is to say the special telephone, it

10     is a secure line, was in the office of the chief of the sector.  I think

11     that in addition to that, there was another one which the head of his

12     office had.  However, I could rarely reach the head of office.  Most

13     often the chief of the sector would answer the phone when I used this

14     telephone line.

15        Q.   And physically where was the office of the chief of sector, so

16     the office in which that telephone that you called was placed in?

17        A.   Well, during the war operations I would reach him within the

18     building of the Ministry of the Interior, the building that was later on

19     destroyed.  And later I spoke to him while he was in Lola Ivo Ribar

20     Street in Belgrade.  This is where I also visited him on several

21     occasions.  These were the premises of a bank, I believe the commercial

22     bank.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  And to finish with, I would like to ask

24     you, do you know Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic?

25        A.   I know Mr. Djordjevic ever since 1971 or 1972.  At the time he

Page 12119

 1     was still chief for control of the legality of operations of the Ministry

 2     of the Interior.  So I have known him for a number of years.

 3        Q.   What was your relationship like with Mr. Djordjevic?

 4        A.   I have always had very correct professional relationship with

 5     Mr. Djordjevic, and it was not all only about work.  When he was still

 6     chief of police at the Ministry of the Interior, I would often visit him.

 7     We talked about our duties, but we also discussed other tasks, and we

 8     would also spend some time simply about talking -- simply talking about

 9     one thing or the other.

10        Q.   Could you try to remember how many times you saw him during the

11     year 1999, and where precisely.

12        A.   From the beginning of 1999, as I said, we were constantly in

13     touch by phone, and we saw one another in his war-time office.  Whether

14     it was three or four times, I can't really recall, but I do know that I

15     went there certainly on several occasions, and in addition to the

16     problems related to NATO aggression, I also had some human resources

17     problem at the level of my secretariat, and these problems had to be

18     urgently resolved.

19        Q.   Could you please make it more precise when you say "war-time

20     office."  What was the address of that office?  So the town, the street.

21        A.   I can't give you the exact address, but I believe it was Lola Ivo

22     Ribar Street, this is next to Tasmajdanski Park.

23        Q.   What is the city that we are talking about?

24        A.   Belgrade.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pantelic, did you ever during the course of 1998

Page 12120

 1     or 1999 see or hear that there was any plan within the Ministry of the

 2     Interior, the goal of which was to expel the Albanian population from the

 3     territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

 4        A.   It is absurd to talk about any such plan.  Why would we wait for

 5     55 years after the end of the Second World War, and why would we wait for

 6     the NATO aggression to carry out any such plan?  It simply makes no

 7     sense.

 8        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, did you ever during the course of 1998 or 1999 hear

 9     or see of any plan within the Ministry of the Interior the goal of which

10     would be to expel the Albanian population from Kosovo in order to modify

11     the ethnic balance within Kosovo?

12        A.   Well, this question is very much related to your previous one,

13     and it is an absurd topic to discuss.

14        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, but that is the reason why we are here.  It is not

15     all that absurd, so I would kindly ask you to give me a precise answer to

16     my question.

17        A.   My precise answer is that I never heard of any such plan, and I

18     wouldn't even know what that plan would be all about.

19        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, thank you very much for answering my questions.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with this I have

21     completed my direct examination.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

23             Mr. Stamp, is it convenient now, or should we take the break a

24     few minutes early?

25             MR. STAMP:  It's a matter for the Court.  We could take the

Page 12121

 1     break, I have no real issues with when we break.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I think for everybody it would be a good

 3     idea to mark this change with the break now, and we will resume at five

 4     minutes to 6.00.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp has some questions for you.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

13        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, are you currently employed, or you are fully

14     retired?

15        A.   I'm not employed.  I have been retired since the 30th of

16     December, 2001.

17        Q.   So after the 30th of December, 2001, did you participate at all

18     in any type of employment?

19        A.   No, I have not been engaged in any work for remuneration.  I'm

20     just president of the hunting society of Valjevo.

21        Q.   Have you since your retirement been active in any political

22     organisation?

23        A.   No, I'm not engaged in politics.

24        Q.   When did you become the head of SUP in Valjevo?

25        A.   I became chief of SUP in Valjevo in early 1991.

Page 12122

 1        Q.   I see.  In respect to the previous question you said you are not

 2     engaged in politics.  What I asked you is whether or not since your

 3     retirement you ever were engaged in any type of political activity, that

 4     is, any time after your retirement?

 5        A.   After I retired, all my political activities ceased.

 6        Q.   Prior to your retirement, what type of political activity were

 7     you engaged in?

 8        A.   I was a member of the Socialist Party of Serbia.

 9        Q.   For how long?

10        A.   I can't say that precisely.  I was a member for a while, maybe

11     for four or five years, and then I stopped being a member immediately

12     prior to the beginning of the war operations.

13        Q.   That is, you stopped being a member about the 23rd of March,

14     1999?

15        A.   Yes, exactly.

16        Q.   Can you tell us how it came about that you stopped being a

17     member?

18        A.   Well, there were several reasons, and I believe these reasons

19     were of a personal nature.

20        Q.   So it was at your motion, at your -- well, by your action that

21     your relationship with the socialist party was terminated?

22        A.   Yes.  It was at my own will only, and part of the reason was that

23     I was dissatisfied with the work of certain structures within the

24     political party.

25        Q.   Did you after that for any period, however short of time, get

Page 12123

 1     active or engage in any other type of political work with any other

 2     political organisation?

 3        A.   After that I was never a member of any political organisation.

 4        Q.   But notwithstanding your not being a member, did you at any time

 5     engage in any type of political activity with or on behalf of any

 6     political organisation?

 7        A.   No, I've never been engaged in any such activity.

 8        Q.   You said that you attended -- no, well, you didn't say.  You said

 9     that there were meetings approximately once every three months,

10     approximately five for the year with the minister, the assistant

11     ministers, and the chief of SUPs, and the head of their lines within the

12     ministry, within the public service department.  Did you attend all of

13     these meetings in 1998?

14        A.   I can't remember precisely, but I believe I did attend them.

15        Q.   Were any of these meetings kept in 1999, or convened in 1999?

16        A.   As I said, I can't say that for sure.  I believe the last meeting

17     was the one in which we discussed the results of our work in 1998, so I

18     believe there were no meetings at that time.

19        Q.   Were you aware that there were collegiums or collegiums of the

20     minister of interior that were held in Belgrade?

21        A.   I heard about some collegiums in a previous period, but I didn't

22     know who attended them or what was the role, the function of that body.

23        Q.   I take it from your answer that you never attended any meeting of

24     the collegium of the minister or the collegium of the chief of public

25     security department?

Page 12124

 1        A.   No, I never attended any meeting of the collegium.

 2        Q.   And did you attend any meetings at all which involved the

 3     minister Stojiljkovic where he delineated the authority of his assistant

 4     ministers?

 5        A.   I only attended one meeting at which the minister Vlajko

 6     Stojiljkovic was present.  And this was a meeting at which we discussed

 7     the construction of a new building of the secretariat of the interior in

 8     Valjevo because NATO aviation destroyed the secretariat building in May.

 9     At that meeting possibly there were three or four assistants or chiefs of

10     administrations, but I can't say that there was any conflict expressed

11     there, and there was also no need for it.

12        Q.   I wasn't talking about conflicts, but I think you have answered

13     the question.  Your conclusions, some of which you stated here, about the

14     various roles of assistant ministers and also of the chief of the crime

15     police department, Mr. Ilic, is based, I take it, on what you heard from

16     various people?

17        A.   Yes, my conclusions are based both on what I heard from others

18     and also on the content and the method in which dispatches were sent and

19     received by my Secretariat of the Interior.

20        Q.   Well, did you see any dispatch that indicated to you that

21     Mr. Ilic was independent of the chief of public security?

22        A.   I would have probably received such a dispatch.  I never saw it.

23     Whether any such dispatch was sent or not, I don't know, but as I said

24     previously from my conversations with Dragan Ilic, I could conclude that

25     he answered directly to the minister.

Page 12125

 1        Q.   You also in the course of your evidence, you were commenting on

 2     some reports that you received from the headquarters in Belgrade.  I

 3     think D415 is one of them.  I think.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Could we just have a quick look at that just to make

 5     sure we are talking about the same document.  D415 is not one of them.

 6     D411, I think.

 7        Q.   These are dispatches, all of those dispatches that are shown, the

 8     daily reports, these are dispatches that were sent from headquarters in

 9     Belgrade for the information of the various persons to whom they were

10     addressed?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   This is not -- well, obviously on the face of it this is not the

13     reports that were sent to Belgrade from the various SUPs and other

14     departments of the -- other sectors of the public security department?

15        A.   I said a short while ago that this was a daily review of current

16     events and occurrences in the public security area for one single day, so

17     it is based on information received from all the secretariats.  That

18     information went to Belgrade, the received information was processed by

19     the analysis administration, and then on the basis of cumulative

20     information received from all the secretariats, the ministry would send

21     out such a daily review.

22        Q.   Very well.  You said that the chief of the public security

23     department was your direct superior.  Wasn't he also the direct superior

24     of all of the chiefs of SUPs in Serbia?

25        A.   According to our rules of organisation within the Ministry of the

Page 12126

 1     Interior, he was superior to all the chiefs of secretariats in the

 2     territory of Serbia except for the Autonomous Province of Kosovo because

 3     the minister adopted a decision to set up the staff there, thus

 4     establishing different structures, organisational structures there.

 5        Q.   We'll get to that decision, that is the decision to set up the

 6     staff.  But can you just tell us whether or not there is any rule or law

 7     that exempted the SUPs in Kosovo or any SUP chief?  May I just repeat the

 8     question.  I withdraw it.

 9             Can you tell us whether there was any law, rule, or regulation

10     that exempted the chief of the secretariats, any chief of secretariat in

11     Kosovo from the direct authority of the chief of public security?

12        A.   There was no such legal provision in the law on the Internal

13     Affairs.  However --

14        Q.   Was there any rule, law, or regulation, any at all, that exempted

15     any SUP chief from their responsibilities as subordinates of the chief of

16     the public security department?

17        A.   Such a legal provision did not exist.  However, if you allow me

18     to say, in order on the basis of which the minister set up the staff of

19     the Ministry of the Interior in Pristina was based on the authorities

20     given to him by the law on the Internal Affairs and the law on state

21     administration.  The minister was authorised by those pieces of

22     legislation to adopt regulations, rules, instructions, and decisions.  So

23     by adopting a decision on the setup of the staff, the minister simply

24     brought to life the authority that he was given by the existing

25     legislation.

Page 12127

 1        Q.   Very well, we'll get to that document.  But while we are on it,

 2     it is your position then that the reason why you say that SUP chiefs in

 3     Kosovo were not the subordinates of Mr. Djordjevic is because of the

 4     decision he adopted setting up the MUP staff?

 5        A.   Yes, it was a decision made by the minister in which it is listed

 6     that all organisational units in the territory of the Autonomous Province

 7     of Kosovo are under the command of the staff in Pristina.  That is in the

 8     documents which you have at your disposal and which I have seen here

 9     during my testimony.

10        Q.   You said that you reported directly to Mr. Djordjevic, both in

11     person and by telephone and by sending other reports.  Yes, you said it.

12     Weren't all the SUPs in Serbia obliged to report to Mr. Djordjevic, the

13     chief of the public security department?

14        A.   Our rules on organisations are such that we are directly

15     subordinated to the chief of the public security sector.  Therefore, we

16     were obliged to report to him and resolve the current security problems

17     together with him in an appropriate manner.  I'm not saying that we did

18     not contact the lines of work within the ministry, that is to say the

19     assistant ministers.  We did contact them as well, but in practice, they

20     were not our superior organs.

21        Q.   Mr. Pantelic, weren't the other SUP chiefs obliged to report to

22     Mr. Djordjevic just as you were?

23        A.   What was valid for me was also valid for other chiefs of

24     secretariats.

25        Q.   Including those in Kosovo?

Page 12128

 1        A.   As for those in Kosovo, the chiefs of secretariats in Kosovo were

 2     placed under the command of the staff.

 3        Q.   Do you know if they reported to Mr. Djordjevic?

 4        A.   I couldn't talk about that because I was not informed about these

 5     matters.

 6        Q.   Did you know Mr. Sreten Lukic, who was the Chief of Staff?

 7        A.   Yes, I certainly knew him.  I had known him for a number of

 8     years.

 9        Q.   How long?  How long before 1999?

10        A.   Certainly more than ten years.

11        Q.   Do you know whether or not he reported to Mr. Djordjevic in 1998?

12        A.   Well, I was not a member of the forces stationed in the territory

13     of the province, and I cannot be positive about whether he sent reports

14     or did not send them, but according to this decision to set up the staff,

15     the commander of the staff was directly responsible to the minister.

16        Q.   When was the first time you saw this decision?

17             MR. STAMP:  Well, since you keep raising it, maybe we could bring

18     it up.  What number?  P57.

19        Q.   When was the first time you saw this decision that you hinge so

20     much on?  I see it's there.  Is it there now?  No, it's not.  Is it

21     addressed -- well, before you get to my last question, may I just ask

22     you?

23             MR. STAMP:  Perhaps you could go to the next page, the last page

24     of this.

25        Q.   Yes, it seems based on the last part there before the signature

Page 12129

 1     of the minister that you were not one of the persons to whom it was sent.

 2     When was the first time you saw this decision?

 3        A.   I did not see this decision until I came here and started

 4     preparations for this trial.  I never saw the decision previously nor was

 5     I aware of its existence.

 6        Q.   So you don't know about the real arrangements for monitoring,

 7     deploying forces in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999, do you?

 8        A.   I just say that I did not see this decision of the minister, but

 9     I did have frequent contacts, and it was logical that I would know who

10     would I be sending my men to, so I had telephone contacts and direct

11     contacts in 1999, and in 1998 I went to the staff of the ministry and I

12     knew who my three companies would be subordinated to and who they would

13     report to.  This is why I mentioned all this.  And as for the decision to

14     establish the staff, I saw it for the first time when I came here to The

15     Hague.

16        Q.   Do you know what Mr. Djordjevic's role was in Kosovo in 1998

17     after this decision was issued, that is 16th of June, 1998?

18        A.   To be frank, I was not informed about that.

19        Q.   Well, you said he was down there during anti-terrorist operation

20     that they had in the summer, which ended in the autumn, in October 1998

21     he was down there quite a lot on the instructions of the minister.  Would

22     you know about that?

23        A.   I don't know the details.  I contacted him regularly.  I know

24     that he was away for a while, but what duties he had to perform, I really

25     did not know.

Page 12130

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

 2             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, even though this

 3     question was responded to, what is mentioned here as the assertion of the

 4     witness is not something that the witness mentioned, so I would ask

 5     Mr. Stamp to give a reference for this, that he knew that he was down

 6     there during anti-terrorist operations, that they had there in the summer

 7     which ended in the autumn of 1998.  I don't remember that the witness

 8     ever mentioned that.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, this was the gravamen of the witness

10     testimony.  He said that many times.  I could -- I thought it was well

11     known, but I could provide the references later on.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps at a convenient time you could provide

13     them to Mr. Popovic and the Chamber.  Thank you.

14             MR. STAMP:  I'd like to show you another document.  This is

15     P1507.

16        Q.   If you could look at the last three questions -- I will just tell

17     you this.  This is answers given to -- answers given by Mr. Sreten Lukic

18     the question that you asked of him, and I'd like you to read the last

19     three questions and answers of that page, and could we move on to the

20     next page.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Popovic.

22             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a document is being

23     used which Mr. Lukic provided as a suspect, and these are his answers to

24     questions asked by the investigator.  The Trial Chamber already took its

25     stand concerning this.  I have nothing against Mr. Stamp presenting

Page 12131

 1     certain parts of these answers to the witness, whether he knows that Mr.

 2     Lukic said that, but I think this might not be the appropriate manner to

 3     use this document as the Trial Chamber has already expressed its position

 4     about this document.  Thank you, that will be all.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, the question I propose to ask is

 6     directly in line with the instructions by the Trial Chamber when this

 7     document was last used.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Please carry on.

 9             MR. STAMP:

10        Q.   Could you look at the first question now on the next page and the

11     answer thereto.  Now, Mr. Pantelic, the question is this, and I ask you

12     the question because you have given us a lot of conclusion based on

13     hearsay and what other people have said to you.  Now, having read this

14     from Mr. Lukic, can you tell us what are your conclusions in respect to

15     the command relationship between Mr. Lukic and Mr. Djordjevic in Kosovo?

16        A.   I cannot say anything about their relations in Kosovo because I

17     do not know what these relations were.  What I said during my testimony

18     was based on appropriate documents which I interpreted.  Whatever I said

19     was based on certain documents.  There are statements here of persons who

20     were accused and some of them were sentenced, but I wouldn't go into

21     that.  And I really was not informed about their relations there in the

22     territory of Kosovo.  I have no knowledge about that.

23        Q.   Do you know how many times Mr. Djordjevic went to Kosovo for

24     purposes of work in 1999?

25        A.   I couldn't tell you that because I'm not informed about it.

Page 12132

 1        Q.   Do you know how many times he went down there during the war?

 2        A.   I cannot answer that either.  I cannot be positive about that.  I

 3     remember that I managed to reach him in his office quite often, but how

 4     many times he went there during the war, that is something I don't know.

 5        Q.   Do you know whether he went there at all during the war?

 6        A.   During the war, I had so many problems to deal with that I was

 7     really not in the situation to follow the situation within the Ministry

 8     of the Interior.

 9        Q.   In other words, you were focused on your problems in Valjevo?  Is

10     that right, what I just said?

11        A.   I was mostly focused on these problems because, as I recently

12     noted, the NATO air force targeted targets in Valjevo on 21 occasions.

13     But regardless of that, we had to perform our regular duties from the

14     remit of work of the ministry, and by nature of things, we were obliged

15     to report to the ministry about duties discharged, and in that sense, I

16     did have several telephone conversations, and I did meet the chief of the

17     sector, but I couldn't tell you when exactly that was.  I cannot remember

18     the exact date nor even the exact month.

19        Q.   Would you consider Mr. Djordjevic to be a friend?

20        A.   I said during my testimony that our relations were proper,

21     professional relations.  We did not socialise privately, but as far as

22     work is concerned, we could find common ground in connection with many

23     problems, and on the basis of that, I can say that we did have -- that we

24     were close to a certain extent.

25        Q.   Did you maintain contact with him after the war in 2000, the year

Page 12133

 1     2000?

 2        A.   We did not have any special contacts.  He was not the chief of

 3     sector anymore, and I had to regulate security problems about the entry

 4     into the zones in Kosovo and the southern Serbia in an action which

 5     involved international forces as well.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   On that occasion I saw him.

 8        Q.   I'm asking about the year 2000.  I believe Mr. Djordjevic was --

 9     well, I don't know if he was relieved of his duties, but he ceased being

10     the chief of the public security department in 2001; is that correct?

11        A.   In 2001 as I tried to say a while ago, I saw him in April or May

12     in Presevo or in Bujanovac, and that was the last time when I saw him in

13     uniform.

14        Q.   We need to clarify that.  The evidence before the Court is that

15     by May 2001 after it became public that some corpses were found at a

16     place called Batajnica, Mr. Djordjevic could not be found.  Do you

17     remember that that is what transpired in 2001?

18        A.   I don't know what happened when this problem around Batajnica

19     arose.  I cannot remember the date, but as I say, I saw Mr. Djordjevic

20     down there when the international forces entered the southern part of

21     Serbia, that was the last time when I saw him.

22        Q.   Wouldn't that have been in May 2000?

23        A.   No, that was not in 2000.  That was in, just a second, in April

24     or May, but not the year 2000, but rather 2001.

25        Q.   Very well.  We have some evidence before the Court that there was

Page 12134

 1     a body set up in Kosovo known as a Joint Command.  Have you ever heard of

 2     this body?

 3        A.   I only heard that it was extended, and that the staff of the

 4     ministry in Pristina was extended by members of state security who were

 5     added to it.  This is what I know about the problem.  And two days ago I

 6     saw here in these proceedings a document which was an order to establish

 7     the staff from which I could see who were the members of the staff.

 8     Until I saw the document, I had not known who were the members of that

 9     staff.

10        Q.   I was talking about another body.

11             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P886.

12        Q.   Do you know of Mr. Djordjevic being a member of or a participant

13     of any command body, and when I say "command body," a body for commanding

14     operations, anti-terrorist operations of the VJ and the MUP in Kosovo?

15     Do you know of that?

16        A.   No, I do not know that.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

18             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not sure whether

19     the OTP notified us about this document in their notice, that they would

20     be using it, and therefore, we cannot find it in our system.  So I

21     apologise to my learned friend, Mr. Stamp, if we have it, but we cannot

22     find it on our list.

23             MR. STAMP:  It's the last item on the list.  It's on the second

24     page.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

Page 12135

 1             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at page 24 of this document.  I'm sorry, I

 2     think we have the wrong page.  I think we want page 41 both in English

 3     and in B/C/S.

 4        Q.   Without us having to click back and forth, this is a meeting of

 5     the 12th of August, 1998, some two months after that decision by the

 6     minister.  You see a record here of General Djordjevic in a meeting with

 7     General Stevanovic and General Pavkovic being recorded as saying that the

 8     3rd and 4th Detachments should be engaged, as well as the army.  Do you

 9     see Mr. Djordjevic speaking at this meeting?  Well, do you?

10        A.   I have the text in English language and some notes from a

11     notebook.  Someone's notes, but I have no idea what this is about.

12        Q.   Can you read in the middle of the page what General Djordjevic is

13     recorded as having said in your language?

14        A.   I really cannot see anything here in my own language except for

15     these handwritten notes.

16        Q.   Can you read those notes?

17        A.   The handwriting is very bad.  If somebody could help me because

18     I'm really not able to decipher it all.

19        Q.   I will.  General Djordjevic said or recorded to have said:

20             "Engage the 3rd and 4th Detachments around Loda and have them

21     work on Friday.  Do Voksa and Slup and engage the army."

22             I show you this as an example.  Do you know of General Djordjevic

23     participating in meetings of a body called the Joint Command that was

24     responsible for anti-terrorist operations in Kosovo?

25        A.   This is the first time I see that, and I was really never

Page 12136

 1     informed about this anywhere.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic, you were standing a moment ago.  Is

 3     there some matter?

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I just thought

 5     that, first of all, we were supposed to establish whether the witness

 6     knew anything about this, whether he ever saw this document, and only

 7     then proceed with the questions.  This was my only suggestion.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

10             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             Could we look at P357.  That's the rules of internal organisation

12     of the MUP.  And we could go straight to Article 54.  I think it's page

13     43 in the English.  Article 54 is page 42 in English.

14        Q.   It's quite basic.  According to the governing rules, it says that

15     the department shall be controlled by the chief of the department.  Can

16     you read Article 54?

17        A.   This is hardly legible, but I'm trying to read it.  Yes, I think

18     I've read it.

19        Q.   You knew Mr. Djordjevic for quite a long time, and you had to

20     associate with him on quite a few occasions in your professional

21     capacity.  Did Mr. Djordjevic demonstrate to you in your years of knowing

22     him that he knew what his legal powers and authority were?

23        A.   We never discussed any legal authorities.  There was a lawyer at

24     the level of the Ministry of the Interior and at the level of

25     secretariats.  We all had these rules of organisation, but we never

Page 12137

 1     discussed any such matter.  There was simply no need.

 2        Q.   Well, did Mr. Djordjevic appear to you to be the type of leader

 3     or commander who would be unaware that the law empowered him to control

 4     the department?

 5        A.   I have an exceptionally positive opinion about Mr. Djordjevic.

 6     Now, how much was he aware of the provisions of these rules, I really

 7     can't say.

 8        Q.   You think that it is possible that Mr. Djordjevic might not have

 9     been aware that the law empowered him to control operations of the public

10     security department?  That that was his responsibility by law?

11        A.   If you ask me whether he was aware, I am sure he was.  Now, the

12     question is to what -- or how much could he do if he had a superior who

13     established different organisational relationships at a level of the

14     ministry.

15        Q.   You told us already that you were not present when

16     Mr. Stojiljkovic met with Mr. Djordjevic.

17        A.   No, I wasn't present at any meeting of the kind.

18        Q.   Now, you have a very positive assessment of Mr. Djordjevic.  In

19     your assessment was he a strong leader, or would you say that he was a

20     weak leader, easily influenced and would yield to pressure?

21        A.   As an answer, I would offer something in the middle range.  So he

22     was as strong as others permitted him to be.

23        Q.   Well, that's an almost meaningless answer, Mr. Pantelic.  Let me

24     ask you more direct question then.  Do you think he would be strong

25     enough as a man with this legal authority that you see here to withstand

Page 12138

 1     pressures and influences from anybody that he commit crime?

 2        A.   I personally do not believe that he would participate in any

 3     activity related to a crime of any kind.  This is my personal view, my

 4     personal opinion.

 5        Q.   Do you think --

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, I'm concerned that you are straying

 7     beyond the bounds of reasonable and proper cross-examination.  You based

 8     your questions on speculation.  The witness says that he does not have

 9     the knowledge that you postulate your questions on.  I've given you a

10     fairly free hand to date, but I really think you are pushing out too far

11     now.

12             MR. STAMP:  I'm not sure -- well, very well, Your Honours, I

13     will -- I will limit myself to the areas that he says that he is aware

14     of.

15        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic said that -- well, let me withdraw the question.

16             Do you in your assessment of your commander assess him as someone

17     who could be pressured to conceal the crime of murder?

18        A.   This is a hypothetical question, and I really could not answer

19     it.

20        Q.   Very well.  Now, you said that you were in Mr. Stojiljkovic's

21     office -- sorry, Mr. Ilic's office, and Mr. Stojiljkovic called and gave

22     instructions.  Do you know what the instructions were about?

23        A.   This has been over ten years ago.  I can't possibly remember what

24     it was about.

25        Q.   Was it Mr. Ilic who told you that it was the minister who was

Page 12139

 1     calling?

 2        A.   He said that the minister called him and that he called him twice

 3     during one hour.  Possibly he said something more, but I can't remember

 4     that now.

 5        Q.   We have some evidence before the Court that there were efforts

 6     made to retrieve some bodies that were found in the Danube.  And it was

 7     Mr. Ilic who made the arrangements for the persons who were involved in

 8     retrieving and concealing these bodies to be paid for their services.  Do

 9     you know who instructed Mr. Ilic to attend to this matter?

10        A.   I heard about that event in the newspapers, as did all the

11     citizens of the Republic of Croatia [as interpreted].  I was never in a

12     situation in which anybody conveyed any information to me concerning this

13     particular event.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  I suspect the answer page 72, line 4 referred to

15     the Republic of Serbia, not Croatia.

16             MR. STAMP:

17        Q.   I take it from your answer that you mean that you don't know how

18     Mr. Ilic got involved in this matter?

19        A.   Most certainly I do not know.

20        Q.   Very well, let's move on to something you probably know about.

21             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at P58.  That is the decision to set up

22     the PJP.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it time enough to refer to a new document?

24             MR. STAMP:  This is probably a convenient time.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will adjourn now and resume again

Page 12140

 1     tomorrow afternoon at 2.15

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of March,

 5                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.