1 Friday, 12 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. While the witness is being brought
6 in, we are trying to resolve a technical problem with the computers.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Please sit down. The affirmation
9 you made to tell the truth still applies, and Mr. Stamp has some
11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: RADOMIR MITIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mitic. Can we begin by you telling us what
16 were the areas of your responsibility, which police departments or police
17 stations you commanded in 1998 and 1999?
18 A. At that time I was chief of the department of the police, and
19 that department comprised the police stations at Kacanik, Strpce,
20 Stimlje, and Urosevac. The Urosevac police station had two police squads
21 and one of which was in Nerodimlje, the other was --
22 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't get the name, if the witness could
23 repeat the second place name.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. Yes, can you repeat the second place name, we missed that.
1 A. The Urosevac police station had two police squads; the one in
2 Gornje Nerodimlje, and the other was in Srpski Babus.
3 Q. So you were in charge of all the regular police, uniformed
4 police, in Urosevac; is that correct? And when I say Urosevac, I mean
5 Urosevac SUP area of responsibility.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The OKP, the crime investigation section, these would be
8 primarily non-uniformed police officers, they didn't fall within your
9 remit; is my understanding correct?
10 A. Yes. The department of the crime police was a separate
12 Q. And how about border affairs. I mean, you had border areas, I
13 think Kacanik was a border municipality. Did you have responsibility in
14 respect to the border police?
15 A. No, I had no responsibility in respect to the border police.
16 Those are separate police stations under the border police
18 Q. So who was your immediate supervisor? Who did you report to?
19 A. My immediate superior was the chief of the SUP,
20 Colonel Bogoljub Janicevic.
21 Q. If we could turn now to the 15th of January, 1999. Could we
22 start with Mr. Goran Radosavljevic. Did you you know him before you met
23 him on the -- at the briefing on the 14th -- or, may I just ask you, I
24 think you said that you met with him and others at a briefing held by the
25 SUP chief on the 14th, that's the day before the Racak operation; is my
1 understanding correct?
2 A. Yes. I know Mr. Goran Radosavljevic -- I knew him before, before
3 we met him -- I met him at the meeting on the 14th.
4 Q. And is it correct that there were members of the operational
5 pursuit, Operation Sweep Group, who participated in the events at Racak
6 on the 15th and 16th?
7 A. Yes. The OPG participated, as far as I know, on the 15th. That
8 is, I'm certain about the 15th, but I'm not sure about any other dates.
9 Q. How many OP -- how many members of the OPG participated?
10 A. Believe me, I don't know the exact number. I know that the OPG,
11 as it was called, was made up of one carefully selected and well-trained
12 police squad from every police station in Kosovo, that is -- sorry, not
13 every police station, every SUP. So every SUP in Kosovo provided one
14 police squad for the OPG.
15 Q. Do you know who commanded them on the 15th?
16 A. Yes, I said so. Mr. Goran Radosavljevic did. I believe that he
17 was a major at the time.
18 Q. Can I take it then that you are saying that there were OPG
19 personnel involved in the Racak operation who came from various parts of
20 Kosovo, not just Urosevac?
21 A. Yes. This is how I explained the matter, if I may finish. The
22 operational pursuit group, OPG, consisted of one squad provided by each
23 SUP from Kosovo. But how many squads actually took part, I don't know.
24 Q. Very well. The OPG, if you could remind us - tell me if I'm
25 correct - they are specially selected and trained members of the PJP; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know of Mr. Radosavljevic ever participating in any other
4 anti-terrorist operation within Urosevac?
5 A. I don't remember his participation in any other operation than
6 this one, at least not to my knowledge.
7 Q. And you said that Colonel, I think it was, Jelic, also
8 participated in the briefing the day before Racak, but you said he was a
9 commander of the 153rd Brigade. Is that correct, or was it the
10 253rd Brigade?
11 A. I believe I said it was the 153rd or something like that. I know
12 that he was commander of the barracks or maybe also commander of the
13 143rd. I really don't remember which brigade it was.
14 Q. Okay. Very well. We'll get to that later. Can you remember the
15 area of responsibility of the brigade that he commanded?
16 A. I cannot provide a precise answer. I know that they were in the
17 barracks in Urosevac, and occasionally they went to Canovica Brdo to
18 train or to carry out a task. Or, I apologise, they also went to Dulje;
19 I heard people mentioning that place. Otherwise, I don't know where that
20 unit spent its time.
21 Q. About what time was this briefing that he was present at on the
22 14th of January, 1999? What time of day or what hour?
23 A. It wasn't during the day. As far as I remember, it was at
24 night-time, in the evening anyway. But I couldn't speculate as to the
25 hour. Anyway, it was night-time. It was more of an information briefing
1 than a real meeting.
2 Q. Well, the next day in the course of the operation on the
3 15th, did you see him at all?
4 A. Are you referring to Colonel Jelic?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Do you know what tasks he and any of the units that came within
8 his brigade were involved in on the 15th?
9 A. If you are referring to that meeting, Pukov Nikiolic [phoen]
10 merely received information there. But what his task was and what they
11 did, I don't know.
12 Q. That's fine. I mean, if you don't know, that's no point in
13 proving that. My understanding is that the army, that the VJ, had two
14 camps in the vicinity of Stimlje at about that time in 1999, and I think
15 Mr. Mladenovic told us so. Do you recall that?
16 A. Yes, but the representatives of the OSCE Mission also knew their
17 whereabouts, so there was no problem with that.
18 Q. Yes.
19 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P1550.
20 Q. This is where Mr. Mladenovic indicates that the VJ were deployed.
21 It's not in your binder, but you'll see it coming up on the screen. He
22 says that there was one camp somewhere within that fairly large circle to
23 the north of Dulje in the forested area, and there was one camp where you
24 see a dot just immediately to the east of Stimlje in the forested area.
25 Is that your recollection of where the VJ units were placed?
1 A. I don't know of this first location near Dulje. Whereas the
2 location near Stimlje at Canovica Brdo, I know that there were there.
3 There was a pine wood above Stimlje, and that's where they had their
5 Q. And do you know what weapons they had there?
6 A. I don't understand the question. I mean, weapons, it's clear
7 what kind of weapons the army has.
8 Q. Yes, but in these two camps - I probably should be more
9 specific - do you know that they had or whether they had tanks and
10 artillery weapons and mortars?
11 A. The barracks in Urosevac, even at the time of the former SFRY,
12 was the largest barracks in the country. It was a predominantly
13 artillery barracks. As for the location at Canovica Brdo, I know that
14 they had artillery there. But what kind of artillery, I couldn't tell
15 because I'm not an expert.
16 Q. And that place at Canovica Brdo is just a couple kilometres from
17 Racak, isn't it? About how -- well, let me ask you, about how far from
19 A. Well, as the crow flies, 2 to 3 kilometres, because Racak was
20 beneath the road from Stimlje to Crnoljevo [as interpreted], and the army
21 was higher up on a hill. And I would say that the distance was
22 2 to 3
23 JUDGE PARKER: May I interrupt, Mr. Stamp, line 18, I think the
24 place description is wrongly recorded. Should it be Canovica Brdo?
25 MR. STAMP: Right, Your Honours. Thank you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. You said yesterday that based on the information you received you
4 think that the OSCE observers were at 2 or 3 different locations. Do you
5 know where the OSCE were located? And I'm just speaking precisely -- let
6 me be more precise, at about the time when the operation began, that's
7 very early in the morning on the 15th, do you know where they were?
8 A. I didn't see them personally, but the chief who sat on the front
9 seat spoke to me while we were riding there, that one vehicle was going
10 to the school in Stimlje which is on the hill of Kostanje, and he showed
11 me that that vehicle had gone in that direction. But I didn't seen it
12 because I was sitting in the back. The chief also said to me that the
13 other team had arrived above the special institute. I remember him
14 telling me all that.
15 Q. About what time was it that he told you this?
16 A. He instructed me to meet up with him at 0600 hours in front of
17 the SUP building. We stayed there for a while, took our personal things,
18 and set off for Stimlje. I could only speculate about the exact hour. I
19 don't want to say anything wrong.
20 Q. It was sometime early that morning after you set off?
21 A. Yes, you're right.
22 Q. Mr. Mitic, the information we have is that what the chief -- what
23 you say the chief said is not true. That the OSCE observers were not
24 told about the operation prior to it starting. Well, I don't know if you
25 can answer that because you say it was the chief who told you. In any
1 case, your evidence is, I take it, that the VJ did not participate.
2 I'd like to show you a report from some of the OSCE persons who
3 arrived there on the 15th later in the day.
4 MR. STAMP: If we could look at P1029. Sorry, you'll get it on
5 your screen there.
6 Q. While it comes up, were you aware, Mr. Mitic, that there was a
7 build-up of VJ arms and personnel in the vicinity of Racak in the week
8 preceding the 15th?
9 A. I personally never noticed anything unusual with regard to the
10 activities of the army. But what you are saying is impossible because
11 Jelic was also informed of the operation on the 14th, the evening of the
12 14th, so it isn't possible for Jelic to have known in advance prepared
13 for any kind of activities.
14 Q. Aren't you speculating, Mr. Mitic? You wouldn't know that, would
15 you? You said you saw Jelic at a meeting and he listened and left. Were
16 you -- did you participate in the planning of the operation prior to that
18 A. No, I didn't. I didn't participate in that at all.
19 Q. Do you know who drew up the plans as to the deployment and
20 movements of the units that would be participating in the morning of
21 the 15th?
22 A. I explained earlier and said that the proposal for the plan was
23 made by the chief of the secretariat. He submitted that to the staff of
24 the MUP in Pristina. Based on that proposal, a plan was worked out, but
25 I've never seen that plan.
1 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Jelic got a copy of that plan?
2 Sorry, Colonel Jelic.
3 A. I'm persuaded that Colonel Jelic didn't have the plan, nor did he
4 know until the 14th that that operation would be carried out. I'm quite
5 persuaded of that, believe me.
6 Q. Let's look at this reporting.
7 MR. STAMP: If we could go to page 11 in the English, page 13 in
8 the B/C/S.
9 Q. Second paragraph, it refers to the ambush of MUP patrols. I
10 think you had referred to that in your testimony. And in the last
11 sentence you see --
12 A. I apologise, I've left my glasses in the room I was in before,
13 but I'll try and read it.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a room in this building? We'll see if we
15 can locate your glasses.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are in the pocket of my
18 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Anyway, the last sentence or last two sentences read that:
20 "Strong VJ and MUP forces remain in the area." That's the area
21 of Stimlje. And:
22 "A report of increased VJ logistical support moving into the area
23 indicates that the VJ are prepared to remain deployed for an extended
24 period." And this is the 10th of January, 1999.
25 Were you not aware of the VJ moving in reinforcements to their
1 bases in the Stimlje area after these MUP patrols had been attacked by
2 the KLA?
3 A. No, there was no need for the army to be involved. When the
4 agreement was signed, then the army was withdrawn. Some troops were
5 withdrawn, and a certain number of troops remained on Canovica Brdo.
6 Q. The agreement you are talking about is the October Agreement, or
7 what is referred to as the October Agreement, I take it?
8 A. Yes, you are quite right.
9 Q. Well, it seems here from the observers that they were reinforcing
10 in breach of the agreement, so I'm not asking about whether or not it was
11 necessarily needed. Did you get any information that the VJ, from about
12 the 10th of January or certainly after the MUP patrols were ambushed,
13 were reinforcing the units in the Stimlje area?
14 A. I see what you would like me to say what you need, but believe me
15 the army wasn't aware of the operation. They couldn't have undertaken
16 preparations of any kind, if they hadn't been aware of that operation.
17 That operation was kept secret. And it was only on the 14th in the
18 evening that the chief informed Colonel Jelic so that they would be aware
19 of the fact for the sake of their own units. That was the only reason.
20 MR. STAMP: Well, let's look at page 17.
21 Q. This is the summary of events produced by the KVM for the
22 13th of January, 1999. Perhaps you could read the entire paragraph, but
23 I'm primarily interested in the the first and second sentences.
24 A. I have received this document now. Do I read it?
25 Q. Yes -- no, no. You see here that the observers reported that the
1 VJ combat team, this is a combat team now, that were reported in the
2 vicinity of Stimlje for the last several days is still present, and they
3 are told by the KLA commander in the Stimlje area that the tanks and
4 artillery were within 200 metres of the KLA position. Are you aware
5 that, by the 13th, a VJ combat team was in the vicinity?
6 A. I had no such information.
7 MR. STAMP: If we could go forward to the date of the event, that
8 is, page 23 in English, 25 in B/C/S.
9 Q. Short paragraphs, so you could read the entire paragraph.
10 A. Yes, I don't agree with this. The army wasn't involved. I
11 emphasised the fact that in that operation when it came to arresting
12 terrorists, it's only the PJP in Urosevac that was involved and the
13 operative group headed by Goran Radosavljevic, the Operation Sweep Group.
14 But I don't know how many of them there were. In any event, the army did
15 not participate in this action.
16 Q. In your answer just now you seem to emphasise the fact that the
17 operation, when it came to arresting terrorists, excluded the army. Did
18 you or do you know that the army played a role in giving cover artillery
19 fire to the VJ -- I beg your pardon. Did you know - and I'm repeating
20 the question - that the VJ gave support covering artillery fire to the
21 MUP units on the ground during the operation?
22 A. As far as I know, it didn't, and it didn't participate in this
24 Q. This report is at -- an attack by a combined VJ/MUP forces
25 started in the vicinity of Stimlje at approximately 0700 hours. This is
1 what they observed, the KVM observed.
2 A. As far as I can remember, you first claimed that they weren't
3 there, now they are saying -- well, as far as I know, the army did not
4 participate in this operation. I'm emphasising the fact that apart from
5 the PJP Urosevac, one company from that PJP and the operation pursuit
6 group, no one else participated in that action.
7 Q. Yes, just so we can be clear, I'm not saying that the KVM or the
8 observers did not arrive there at all at some point in the course of the
9 day, I'm saying they were not told about this operation prior to it
11 A. All I can confirm is that I did not inform them that the SUP
12 chief informed them. That's what he told me. And the MUP staff in
13 Pristina, the office in Pristina, that's what I know. That's what I was
15 Q. Very well. Let's look at another report from another
16 international observation -- observer unit.
17 MR. STAMP: P1250.
18 Q. That's the US KDOM report. We had some testimony before,
19 Mr. Mitic, that although it's dated the 26th of January, 1999, it would
20 have been made earlier. That date really refers to the time when it was
21 published. First two sentences, or three sentences:
22 "The US KDOM observed the FRY police/military attack on the
23 Racak-Petrovo-Malopoljce area throughout the day on January 15th. VJ
24 armoured units and mortars fired into the village with at least three
25 tank rounds visibly hitting civilian houses. Fires started by the
1 shelling burned in the houses for several hours after the attack."
2 Again, you are saying that the observers who reported this did
3 not observe this; is that what you are saying?
4 A. I don't know what they reported on, but this is the first time
5 I've heard about such information. That never happened. Houses were
6 never torched; villages were never shelled. That's wrong. They shelled
7 Albanian terrorists from Petrovo Uzak [phoen]. They shelled in the
8 direction of policemen, Special Police Units, PJP. That's a fact.
9 Perhaps a house happened to be hit in the course of that action.
10 Q. Who shelled Albanian terrorists from Petrovo?
11 A. You haven't understood me. Albanian terrorists shelled the PJP,
12 Special Police Units, which participated in that action.
13 Q. I see. And in this fierce fighting that occurred during the
14 course of the day, your evidence is that the PJP units were shelled by
15 the terrorists, but the VJ with their tanks and artillery on the hill
16 overlooking did not provide cover-fire for the PJP units?
17 A. I never heard of that nor did I see anything of that kind. I
18 didn't see anyone providing support. I'll repeat, it was just a police
19 operation. That's all I know.
20 Q. Okay. Let's -- I think maybe we need to explore the source of
21 your knowledge.
22 MR. STAMP: But before we do that, let's look at P864. If we
23 could go straight to page -- sorry, 869. P869. I gave you the wrong
24 number. I am sorry about that. If we could go straight to page, I think
25 it's page 6 in the English, and I think we want the penultimate page in
1 the B/C/S.
2 Q. This is the minutes of a meeting with
3 Brigadier General Maisonneuve and the chief of your secretariat
4 Mr. Janicevic. And this is the 16th of January, 1999. And at the top
5 you can see that the participants in this meeting are designated by their
6 initials, J being Janicevic, M being Maisonneuve, and G being Gil
7 Gilbertson. And the first thing here is that General Maisonneuve
8 indicated that he is here to find out what happened in Racak and Petrovo
9 yesterday, who led it. And he also testified that the OSCE were never
10 told about this operation before it began. And Janicevic said:
11 "I am ... in charge of four communities, including Stimlje."
12 Will you agree with me that even if Colonel Janicevic was not
13 actively engaged in commanding the units on the ground -- or withdrawn.
14 I'm not making a suggestion.
15 Can you tell me who had overall command of the operations in that
16 area that morning?
17 A. For that particular operation, as you call it, for arresting the
18 terrorist, the person who was responsible was Goran Radosavljevic.
19 Major Goran Radosavljevic.
20 Q. Very well. That would be command of the fighting police units on
21 the ground, but could you explain to us what General -- what
22 Colonel Janicevic would have meant when he responded to General
23 Maisonneuve's question by saying "I am in charge of four communities
24 including Stimlje"?
25 A. I don't know what he had in mind. But he was the chief of the
1 secretariat, so that is his area. Those four municipalities constitute
2 his area.
3 Q. If we could look to the middle of the page in English, and this
4 would be three bullet points from the bottom of the first page in B/C/S.
5 We see that Colonel Janicevic said that the operation starts at 0330
7 A. Look, at 0330 as he says, yes, that's the case, but the OPG went
8 to carry out its task.
9 Q. So this operation was well on its way hours before you arrived at
10 the Stimlje police station?
11 A. That's correct. As far as I know, the OPG around 3.00 or 3.30
12 went to carry out its task and to carry out a blockade from the upper
13 side of the village of Rajsa
14 Q. May I suggest to you that in those early hours the VJ provided
15 covering fire for the PJP units as they advanced?
16 A. And I'm claiming that that is not correct, that the army did not
18 Q. At what time did you arrive at Stimlje, did you tell us that?
19 You said you left Urosevac at 6.00 in the morning. About what time did
20 you arrive in Stimlje?
21 A. No, look, I said that we met at 6.00 in the morning in front of
22 the SUP building. We then went to our offices and took our equipment.
23 Then 15 or 20 minutes later, we set off in the direction of Stimlje. I
24 wouldn't want to speculate about the time, but, you know, Stimlje is
25 12 kilometres from Urosevac, so we needed a certain amount of time to get
1 there. We only stopped at the check-point, or rather, it's not a
2 check-point. Well, yes, a check-point, the transport police, the traffic
3 police stopped the traffic and we passed through, and others stayed on
4 and waited.
5 Q. You arrive at Stimlje around 7.00 in the morning, more or less.
6 Can you just give us an approximation? I mean, I know you can't be
8 A. I think it was a little before 7.00. That would be my estimate.
9 Q. So the operation would have been on-going three to four hours
10 before you arrived?
11 A. No, no, you haven't understood me. The OPG set off at 3.00 or
12 3.30 according to my information - I don't know exactly when. And, in
13 fact, the Special Police units set off to carry out its own task around
15 Q. Mr. Janicevic said the action started at 0330 in the morning and
16 you accepted that that was correct. I put the question this way: The
17 action started three to four hours before you arrived at Stimlje; is that
19 A. Look, the OPG, as far as I know, and this is what I heard from
20 the chief, and in the course of the day, there were others who spoke
21 about that action, but according to what I know, they were sent in
22 earlier to carry out a blockade above the village of Racak
23 OPG went in their direction at 6.00, according to my information. I
24 think it was around 6.00. So you can't say that the action, the
25 operations started at 3.30 because what's more important is that
1 they -- well, they carried out a blockade. But the special unit set off
2 at 6.00. And I would say that the action started at 6.00.
3 Q. So you are saying that what Colonel Janicevic told
4 General Maisonneuve was not true?
5 A. No, not that it's not true. That part of that unit, let's say
6 part of the unit, was involved. The OPG set off earlier. But the
7 Special Police Unit set off later. Then they must have synchronised
8 their action. And what happened happened.
9 Q. All right. Let's look at this from a different angle. Your
10 awareness as to what happened that day was based on what others told you.
11 I think you said that - and this is at 12.682 of the transcript - you did
12 not have any communications on the 15th with those carrying out the
13 operations or with the staff. You only heard fire in the background,
14 sound of fire from the area.
15 Would you not allow for the possibility, just the possibility,
16 that to support the MUP units who were being shelled by the KLA, the VJ
17 with their artillery and tanks above Racak fired at some point in time to
18 support them? Would you allow for that possibility?
19 A. You know, you've put a lot of questions to me in just one
20 question. Could you be more precise, or I'll try and remember what
21 you've asked me and deal with your question by answering each component
22 of it. As far as the radio --
23 Q. Very well. Having regard to various elements; one, VJ units with
24 artillery and tanks were nearby; two, there was fierce fighting and the
25 PJP were being shelled; three, you were in a police station in Stimlje
1 where you arrived after the action had started and you were not in
2 communication with the persons involved in the action. Those are the
3 elements from what you said.
4 The question is this, one question: Would you not allow for the
5 possibility that VJ tanks or artillery may have fired at some point in
6 the course of the day to support the PJP?
7 A. No. I am convinced that the army did not participate.
8 Q. You said that on the 18th you escorted the investigation team
9 into Racak. Can you tell us how long after the police de-blocked Racak,
10 to use your words, did you arrive there?
11 A. As far as I remember, a little after noon, around about 1.00 p.m.
12 It must have been after 12.00 certainly. Between 1.00 and 1.30,
14 Q. And your evidence is that you were ordered to go there by
15 Colonel Janicevic on the suggestion of General Djordjevic. Let's speak
16 briefly about Mr. Janicevic.
17 A. I apologise, but if you will allow me, General Djordjevic made a
18 suggestion for a higher-ranking officer to go there due to the publicity
19 that Racak had been given. And Colonel Janicevic selected me.
20 Q. Fine. I'm not taking issue with that. At least not yet.
21 Where is Colonel Janicevic? Is he still a member of the MUP?
22 A. No, he isn't. He retired long ago.
23 Q. Is he still alive? Do you know where he lives, if so?
24 A. He is alive, thank God. I know that he lives in Nis.
25 Q. General Maisonneuve who spoke with him described him thus:
1 "Mr. Janicevic was quiet and erudite gentleman and able to, I
2 think, answer questions in a rather kind of round-about way."
3 Is that a fair appraisal of him, or perhaps you could just
4 comment on that and tell us how -- what was your assessment of him as
5 your commander?
6 A. Well, you know, I can say that he was a sincere man. He has
7 always been such. I don't know how this gentleman saw him, but as for
8 me, I knew that he was always sincere.
9 Q. And would he be the sort of person who in your assessment was so
10 sincere that he would speak the truth when he was testifying, if he's
11 testifying and when he was testifying under oath to this Tribunal?
12 A. I think that he would. There's no reason for him to hide
13 anything, unless he changed subsequently. But that's the way he was.
14 Q. Very well, we'll get back to that. You -- the Defence tendered
15 through you quite a few statements taken by Mr. Dragan Jasovic and
16 Mr. Sparavalo. Can you remind me what Mr. Sparavalo's first name was?
17 A. I think his first name was Momcilo.
18 Q. Do you know whether or not there was a protest by citizens in
19 Urosevac town when he was appointed to a position in the SUP Urosevac?
20 A. Well, you know, as far as I remember Momcilo Sparavalo, that is,
21 his father, was involved in the rallies that were organised at the time
22 by members of the Serbian ethnic group. Momcilo Sparavalo's father
23 organised such rallies throughout the former Yugoslavia. And due to that
24 fact, the fact that his father was active in politics, to call it that,
25 was very unpopular with some ethnic Albanians because his father was
1 active in politics and organised rallies. But, knowing him, I can say
2 that he was a quiet man, a peaceful man, and I wouldn't say that he was a
3 bad man.
4 Q. And Jasovic or Jacovic?
5 A. Dragan Jasovic is a crime police officer. He is a very hard
6 working inspector. He had a professional degree of the third rank. I
7 believe that he became inspector back in 1984 or 1985, if I remember
9 Q. Do you know if they spoke -- if any of them spoke Albanian?
10 A. I think that both spoke some Albanian, but I wouldn't say that
11 they spoke well.
12 Q. Now, you said in your testimony, 12.675 of the transcript, that
13 there was a procedure where police officers subordinate to you would
14 arrest persons and they were brought in to be interviewed. They would be
15 handed over to OKP employees for further processing. Is that the system
16 in place, that your police officers would pick up persons of interest and
17 hand them over to the OKP for further processing?
18 A. Now, at those check-points or in the course of regular activity,
19 patrolling, et cetera, our police officers asked persons to produce some
20 kind of ID. So they conducted ID checks. And that's done today also.
21 If there's a suspicion that somebody may have committed a crime or that
22 they may have been connected to a perpetrator, then they are taken to a
23 police station. And they are duty-bound to make an Official Note about
24 any such apprehension. And after that, the persons are handed over to
25 the OKP with a copy of that Official Note. Later on from October, I
1 believe, the employees of the department of state security were also
3 Q. And in 1998 and 1999 in Urosevac, would it be correct to say that
4 inspectors Jasovic and Sparavalo were the police inspectors in OKP in
5 charge after terrorism investigations?
6 A. Well, yes. The two of them mostly got involved in curbing
7 terrorism, as well as the staff of the state security service.
8 Q. And for that reason they were frequently engaged in the
9 interrogation of Kosovo Albanians; that is correct, is it?
10 A. Yes, that was one of their tasks, to interview apprehended
12 Q. Have you, in the course of your position in 1998 and 1999, ever
13 received any allegation that Jasovic and Sparavalo were routinely engaged
14 in the torture of Kosovo Albanians?
15 A. I have never heard that the two of them tortured, mistreated, or
16 treated apprehended persons abusively.
17 Q. Have you ever heard, to be more specific, that they were
18 regularly engaged in issuing death threats, beatings, electric shocks to
19 Kosovo Albania persons in their custody? Never heard of that?
20 A. No, I haven't. And I don't know what these electroshocks are. I
21 don't know how they could have done that. I don't understand.
22 Q. Did you hear any allegation from any source that the police of
23 the Urosevac SUP area and at the Urosevac police station in particular
24 were extremely violent and persecutory against Kosovo Albanians in that
25 period, 1998 and 1999?
1 A. No, that is not true. We would never have allowed that. And
2 believe me, that the Albanian people hardly had any objections to the
3 behaviour of the police. And nobody ever contacted me, although I worked
4 in that town for over 20 years.
5 Q. I take it then that you have never heard any allegations that you
6 were many times present and participated in these beatings in that period
7 of time?
8 A. I claim with full responsibility that in this period I never
9 heard that, nor was any such case ever reported to me. But in the
10 earlier period, there were many instances when Albanians would report
11 that they had been robbed on the occasion of traffic checks, robbed for
12 10 marks or 20 marks. And there are people who can confirm that we
13 arrested police officers due to such allegations. So we reacted even to
14 such incidents and let alone to allegations of torture or something of
15 that kind.
16 Q. At the Urosevac police station building, what floor of the
17 building were the offices of Messrs. Jasovic and Sparavalo?
18 A. The OKP had its chief and the chiefs of departments for white
19 collar crime and other forms of crime, they all had their offices on the
20 third floor.
21 Q. Have you ever heard of an organisation called Human Rights Watch?
22 A. Yes, I have.
23 Q. Did you or were you ever made aware of any allegations they made
24 about the conduct of the police in Urosevac with regard to
25 Kosovo Albanians during that period we are speaking of, 1998 and 1999?
1 A. Well, you know, there were such allegations, and we conducted
2 certain checks. But some individuals would lie and cheat to be granted
3 asylum abroad, so they even forged -- forged documents summoning them to
4 an interview to be given asylum outside Yugoslavia. And there were even
5 articles about mass poisonings of Albanians, but that was a farce
6 intended to show the world that Serbs were poisoning Albanians. But
7 there wasn't any truth in that at all.
8 Q. Yes. I just asked you simply if you were aware of
9 Human Rights Watch making allegations against Urosevac police. You talk
10 about people going abroad; that's not the focus of my question. Perhaps
11 you could just have a look at one report.
12 MR. STAMP: If you could look at 65 ter 391.
13 Q. That's, you can make it out, a human rights report of
14 December 1998 entitled "Detentions and Abuse in Kosovo."
15 MR. STAMP: If we go straight to page 8 of the English and 8 in
16 the B/C/S.
17 Q. That's an attention. These are not people who liked to go
18 abroad, these are people who died.
19 "Human rights groups in Kosovo have documented five cases since
20 July 1998 in which detainees, people held in police stations, state
21 security buildings, or prisons died from torture by police officers or
22 prison guards. Human rights confirms three of these cases by speaking
23 with the lawyers, family members of the victim, and witnesses, as well as
24 by seeing death certificates and/or photographs of the deceased."
25 One such person was Rexhep Bislimi, did you know, officer
1 arrested in Urosevac on the 6th of July, 1998?
2 A. No. I'll apologise, but I don't know of this case. I know of a
3 case when a man jumped down from the fourth floor and he fell on his head
4 so that --
5 Q. Yes?
6 A. If that is the same, I don't know.
7 Q. No, that's a different case that we'll get to. And for that case
8 I'm going to suggest to you that he was thrown out of building by the
9 police during interrogation, but we'll get to that.
10 A. But that isn't true either.
11 Q. The investigation, in any case, that Rexhep Bislimi was arrested
12 on the 6th of June -- July, 1998, on the street in Urosevac. He died on
13 the 20th of July from beatings he sustained while in detention?
14 A. You can believe me that I know nothing of this case.
15 MR. STAMP: If we look at page 11 in the English, page 11 in the
17 Q. This is a case of Maksut Qafleshi. Report is -- do you have that
18 there, yes?
19 A. Yes, I can see it.
20 Q. Do you remember this person?
21 A. That he was denied medical treatment, I don't remember that and I
22 don't believe that would have happened, that he wouldn't have been
23 allowed to hospital. Only if he was wounded in combat and possibly
24 detained for reasons of check-up, but even then he would have been
25 escorted to hospital. And after he was provided medical assistance, he
1 would have been processed further.
2 Q. For moment there, and you still seem to be saying that he might
3 have been denied medical treatment only if he was wounded in combat. Be
4 that as it may. But this information is not simply about being denied
5 medical treatment. He said that this is that he died as a result of
6 police torture that he sustained in Urosevac.
7 A. I don't know where you got this information from. This is the
8 first time I hear of this case.
9 Q. The next one is Bilall Shala. He died -- 47-year-old
10 Bilall Shala from Urosevac died while in police custody. You might
11 remember this one. He was an activist with the Christian democratic
12 party and was arrested on August 28th with his son. Do you remember him?
13 A. On the 28th of August, you say?
14 Q. Yes, 1998.
15 A. I don't remember that police officers processed this person. Do
16 you know who processed him exactly or even which service?
17 Q. My question is, Mr. Mitic, is whether or not you knew this person
18 Bilall Shala, and activist with the --
19 A. No. No, I didn't know him.
20 Q. And there were photographs of the body showing the bruising and
21 internal haemorrhaging resulting from the beatings he received from the
22 police. You had no clue about these cases?
23 A. This is really the first time I've heard of this event, if it
24 really happened. I'm not informed. But again, on the other hand --
25 Q. Did you, in 1998/1999, hear of Human Rights Watch reports or of
1 reports by any international NGO about persecution of Kosovar Albanians
2 in Urosevac?
3 A. Well, you know, the Albanian language press wrote about that,
4 and, yes, I heard accounts, but of these reports that you mentioned, I
5 don't remember a single one. But I really don't know of any mass
6 expulsions. Nobody ever complained. I had some -- I was a person of a
7 certain esteem with the Albanian community, but nobody ever contacted me
8 with -- about such problems.
9 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I wonder if this might be the
10 appropriate time for the break. But before we do, I wonder if -- or
11 perhaps I don't need to tender anything at this point in time.
12 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the first break. We resume at 11.00.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. You recall, Mr. Mitic, that you mentioned a police officer,
20 former colleague of yours of Albanian ethnicity, by the name of
21 Hebib Koka?
22 A. Yes, I know Hebib Koka very well. We even went to school
23 together. We completed the high school for Internal Affairs together in
25 Q. And he, in the early to mid-1990s, was the head of the public
1 security directorate within the SUP Urosevac, was he?
2 A. Yes, he was the head of public security, I believe, at that time.
3 Q. And he was a lawyer?
4 A. I think that after he graduated from that high school for
5 Internal Affairs, he graduated from some university. But I can't
6 remember, or rather, I don't know which one, believe me.
7 Q. I have here, Mr. Mitic, a statement which he gave, and which he
8 signed and certified that everything was correct, it having been read
9 over to him. And it's only fair that you have an opportunity to comment
10 on what he says about the police operations at the Urosevac police
12 MR. STAMP: This is 6072, 65 ter.
13 Q. It's a rather long statement, so I won't be going through all of
14 it. I -- can I just represent to you that he has signed every page. And
15 if we go to the penultimate page in both English and B/C/S, he also
16 certifies to the truth of the contents of this statement.
17 MR. STAMP: If we go straight to paragraph 6 of his statement.
18 The last sentence of paragraph 6, so it would be the next page in
20 Q. He says that he carried out his duties in the police until the
21 26th of February, 1999, when he resigned because of the "circumstances
22 that were created made it impossible for me to continue working in the
24 JUDGE PARKER: There's been a pause. You may have resolved some
25 of the problems, but we have lost the first part of paragraph 6, which,
1 if that could come back.
2 Carry on, Mr. Stamp, thank you.
3 MR. STAMP:
4 Q. That first part of paragraph 6 summarises his history, and in the
5 last part, which, as I indicated, is on the next page, he says that he
6 resigned on the 26th of February, 1999. Do you recall that, that he
7 resigned in February 1999?
8 A. Yes, I remember that very well. Previously, before he left, I
9 remember he was assigned a task, he and the commander. He didn't
10 officially leave, in fact, he just disappeared. But two days later, the
11 commander Bogoljub Staletovic was killed, and the chief of the
12 secretariat had assigned both of them a task with regard to the kidnapped
13 individuals, they were to solve the problem and find out who had
14 kidnapped them, because this was a big affair in the area. So after that
15 task, a day or two later -- well, after the task had been assigned, he
16 couldn't obtain any information or didn't want to. And then he quite
17 simply disappeared two days, as I have already said, before the commander
18 was killed. He left his weapon in the police station. I remember that I
19 was told about that. His weapon remained in the OUP building in Kacanik,
20 but he quite simply disappeared.
21 Q. Let's move to paragraph 13. He said that in the course of his
22 work there at the Urosevac police station, Dragan Dabic, Dragan Jasovic,
23 Radomir Mitic, and Srecko Dogandzic, Urosevac police inspectors, arrested
24 in one day about 30 Albanian men while the uniformed police arrested
25 others who had also demonstrated that day.
1 Do you remember an occasion sometime in the mid-1990s when you
2 arrested dozens of Albanian men who were involved in a demonstration?
3 A. Yes, I remember that. At the time, I was involved in the work of
4 the head of the department for the prevention of General crimes. I
5 didn't work with Dogandzic, Dabic, and Jasovic, but I was in the office
6 when we processed those individuals because they had participated in the
7 demonstrations. I was with Imram Joka [phoen]. I worked with this
8 Albanian in an office.
9 Q. He says:
10 "The inspectors beat them and verbally offended them, saying that
11 they will fuck their Albanian mothers. I know this because the people
12 told me. Apart from beating them with police batons all over their
13 bodies, they bunched and kicked them especially in their genitals."
14 Do you recall that many of these men were beating by the police
15 while they were at the police station?
16 A. Sir, he was the second most important person in the SUP, given
17 his position. If he had such information, why didn't he take any
18 measures? He could have taken certain disciplinary measures -- certain
19 criminal measures against those inspectors.
20 Q. Yes, Mr. Mitic, there's a lot of material that it would only be
21 fair that you answer to or comment -- you have the opportunity to comment
22 on. But we need to move more quickly. All I want to know is whether or
23 not you knew about the beatings inflicted on these men by police
24 inspectors at the Urosevac SUP? Do you know about that?
25 A. No, no. On the whole, it had to do with violations, reports were
1 filed for offences, for participating in demonstrations, but as for
2 torture, I don't think this is very realistic.
3 Q. In paragraph 14 he says, having regard to what he was told about
4 what was happening to these men - and that was in paragraph 13 - in
5 paragraph 14 he now says:
6 "I went to the third floor and I saw a group of about
7 16 civilians being guarded by two uniformed police officers, first name
8 unknown, last name unknown."
9 And if you read throughout the paragraph - I'm not going to read
10 it - he said that he noticed that some of these men had visible signs of
11 injury. And in the last sentence he said:
12 "I asked them what happened to them, and they said that they had
13 been beaten by inspectors, first name unknown, last name unknown, on the
14 third floor and they didn't know why."
15 Paragraph 15 he says:
16 "I opened the door and went into Dragan Dabic and
17 Srecko Dogandzic's office. I saw a civilian Albanian male, about 20
18 years old, lying on the blue carpeted floor with without his shoes on.
19 Dragan Dabic was sitting on his legs and remained there when I walked in.
20 Srecko Dogandzic had a baton in his hand, and he froze when he saw me.
21 He was standing behind Dragan Dabic, and it was obvious that he had been
22 beating the young man's bare feet. Dragan Jasovic was in a crouched
23 position at the guy's head with his hands either side the young man's
24 head, it was as if he had let the guy's head go when I entered the room.
25 Radomir Mitic was standing by the desk and he froze when I entered the
2 Do you recall that, that Mr. --
3 A. That's not correct, believe me. I don't remember having watched
4 the inspectors beating this person. That's really absurd. I don't know
5 why this was necessary. At least this was never done in my presence.
6 Q. Do you remember being in Dragan Dabic's and Dogandzic's office
7 while men were processed in that office?
8 A. Well, you know, I said that I was in that department for two
9 years, perhaps more, and I worked with those people. But I never saw
10 anyone torturing others. You know, it was a matter of participating in
11 demonstrations. Those who organised it, were held to be criminally
12 responsible. Others were supposed for misdemeanours. It's not
13 necessary -- it wasn't necessary to force anyone to give statements; it
14 wasn't necessary to have torture. Everything had been photographed,
15 recorded. On the basis of those recordings, it was possible to identify
16 people, bring them into the police station, and then process them there.
17 Q. Well, you are saying that on this occasion based on your
18 assessment it wasn't necessary to force anyone to give statements or to
19 torture anyone, but this is what Mr. Koka said that he saw. He said
20 further he -- well, let me just read something else then.
21 In paragraph 17. Here in the previous paragraph he indicated
22 that he helped one of the youngsters out into the corridor. And in
23 paragraph 17 he says:
24 "I returned to the office of Srecko Dogandzic, and
25 Srecko Dogandzic said, Yes, Chief. I asked him, What's going on? Srecko
1 said, We are working. I wanted to know why the Albanian men had been
2 brought to the station. Srecko Dogandzic replied that they had
3 participated in the demonstrations. I told them to give me the
4 Official Note, which includes all particulars which you would obtain
5 during an interview. Dogandzic said they had no Official Note but that
6 they would prepare it soon."
7 And if we go to paragraph 18:
8 "I told Dragan Dabic, Dragan Jasovic, Radomir Mitic, and
9 Srecko Dogandzic to write a report detailing why all the men were
11 Do you recall this in particular that he instructed you all to
12 write a report detailing why you had arrested these men?
13 A. Hebib Koka never ordered me to draft a report. I can claim that
14 with full responsibility. But what he says, well, we didn't bring these
15 people in, policemen did on the basis of photographs or film that was
16 used to identify them. And within the crime police, we spoke to those
17 individuals. But Hebib Koka doesn't mention a single Albanian name here,
18 the name of a single Albanian. We were all in the office, Serbs and
19 Albanians. I didn't work with Jasovic or Dabic, with any of the
20 individuals mentioned here. I worked with Imrim Joko [phoen] at the
21 time. That was his name, Imre Maloku [phoen].
22 Q. Mr. Koka says further in paragraph 19 that he returned to his
24 "... and ten minutes later Dragomir Zivic called me on the phone
25 and said he had released all of the men who had been arrested.
1 Dragan Dabic's, Dragan Jasovic's, Radomir Mitic's, Srecko Dogandzic's,
2 and Dragomir Zivic's reports were sent to Milorad Stankovic, the SUP
3 chief. I didn't see the reports before they were sent to the chief. I
4 saw the report the following day and they stated that I had prevented
5 them from doing their duty and that I had ordered them to release the
7 "Among other things they stated that I had protected the
8 irredentists, which means separatists, they requested from
9 Milorad Stankovic, the SUP chief, that in future they could not be
10 disturbed from carrying out their duties or be prevented from doing so.
11 Milorad Stankovic, the SUP chief, acceded to their request."
12 Do you recall that you sent a report -- you and the other
13 inspectors sent a report in respect to this beating or beatings to the
14 SUP chief by passing Mr. Koka who had demanded that you sent it?
15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I never wrote such a report. And the second
16 thing is that we could have sent such a report to Zivic, Dragomir,
17 Dragomir Zivic, he was our immediate superior. And then the third thing,
18 is, well, the chief of the secretariat, he was someone from the
19 Second World War in fact. He respected the letter of the law. If you
20 went to see him and tried to manipulate him, that was not possible. I
21 couldn't do that, Hebib couldn't do that, no one could do that. This was
22 a man who was honourable and who respected the law.
23 Q. What was the demonstration that these young Albanian men were
24 involved in about?
25 A. Well, the demonstrations in Urosevac lasted for three days, as
1 far as I can remember, just before the constitutional changes were
2 introduced, the constitutional changes in the Republic of Serbia
3 when the Kosovo Assembly voted for amendments to the constitution. Up
4 until the promulgation of these amendments, I think there were
5 demonstrations that went on for about three days, as far as I can
7 Q. So it would be fair to say that these young Albanian men were
8 involved in demonstrations of a political nature?
9 A. Yes, they were. They were involved in demonstrations, but it was
10 destructive as well, violent, it wasn't just a matter of protest. It was
11 brutal. Vehicles were set on fire, turned over, windows were broken,
12 shops were looted. So it was violent. It wasn't a peaceful
14 Q. In paragraphs 21 and 22, Mr. Koka speaks more generally about
15 what used to happen at the Urosevac police station. He says:
16 "The beatings continued in the Urosevac police station on the
17 third floor and was done mostly by this group of inspectors,
18 Dragan Jasovic was mainly involved with political offences.
19 Srecko Dogandzic dealt with smuggling of drugs and weapons cases.
20 Radomir Mitic, who knew the terrain well, was first the station
21 commander, then he was appointed the sector chief for general crime and
22 later appointed chief of the police which he held to the end of the war."
23 Which was your office? Do you remember what your office number
25 A. You mean the number of my office?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Believe me, I can't remember.
3 Q. He said, though, that yourself, Jasovic, Dogandzic were the
4 inspectors mostly responsible for beatings at that police station. Is
5 that correct?
6 A. That's not correct. And believe me, Jasovic was at the other end
7 of the floor. His office was at the other end of the floor from my
8 office. So we weren't next to each other. So this has no sense. It's
9 not true. I don't know why this person started hating me so rapidly. We
10 used to be friends.
11 Q. He says:
12 "Offices 60, 61, and 66 were where the worst beatings occurred on
13 the third floor. Momcilo Sparavalo and Dragan Jasovic were in room 60.
14 Srecko Dogandzic and Boban Krstic were in room 61."
15 Well, I suppose you do not remember the rooms where the other
16 inspectors were, but do you recall that Sparavalo and Jasovic shared an
18 A. Yes, they both worked in the same office. As far as torture is
19 concerned, et cetera, well, I really don't know what the purpose of all
20 of this is. Why is this being emphasised? I don't think Mr. Koka is
22 Q. Okay. We can't go through all of this statement, so let's
23 just -- if there's anything else which is important, you might be asked
24 about that by others later.
25 MR. STAMP: But let's go to paragraph 43.
1 Q. Do you know where the villages of Pustenik and Padlenic are?
2 A. The village of Pustenik
3 think it's in that area. As for the other village, I didn't understand
4 you very well.
5 Q. If you look at paragraph 43, first line, or first sentence, he
6 refers to two villages. Maybe I didn't pronounce it correctly.
7 A. No, it's not correctly written here. Palivodenica. I think that
8 that was the name of the village. Palivodenica. That's the name of the
9 village. Yes, it's in the Kacanik municipality. I know where it is.
10 Q. He said that villagers from that area, the Lajci family, came to
11 his house and reported a SUP action in that area where women were
12 separated from men and their houses were burned. And these are Albanian
13 villages. And they were taken from their homes and taken to the Urosevac
14 SUP for either two days or three days, and they told them that they had
15 been beaten by Dragan Jasovic and Sparavalo. Do you recall this family,
16 this Albanian family, most of them -- many of them, it appears, being
17 very senior in age, being taken to the police station in March 1999?
18 A. You know, the Lajci family, that's their name, in fact. In
19 Kacanik and in those villages, this family is an important one. I've
20 heard about this surname, but I have no idea about them having been
21 brought in. You know, I can't be aware of all those who were brought in.
22 They were certainly brought in because it was suspected that they had
23 participated in terrorist actions. In Official Note, that's what it says
24 in the Official Note, was then provided to the crime police and to
25 officials of the state security sector for further processing.
1 Q. I'm not sure if I understand you. Are you saying that you did
2 not know about this important family being brought in in March 1999, or
3 you know they were brought in because it was suspected that they had
4 participated in terrorist actions?
5 A. I don't remember this family. I can't know everything or
6 remember everything.
7 Q. At the end of that paragraph they told them that:
8 "Sparavalo beat them with a big wooden stick and Jasovic beat
9 them with a stick and gave them electric shocks. They were asked about
10 the KLA and if they were KLA members. They were asked questions and when
11 they couldn't answer they were beaten until they fainted. And when they
12 recovered, the beating started again."
13 And they made statements, but they didn't know what was in them.
14 You have any comment on that? In particular the use of electric
15 shocks in the police station at Urosevac? Again, suspected or alleged
16 KLA members or sympathisers?
17 A. I don't know whether Hebib Koka was in active service in March,
18 but if he was, he should have written an Official Note and forwarded it
19 to the chief for official action to be taken. But I don't think he was
20 there in March 1999. We even had information that he had defected to
22 because at the time he was supposed to be in Skopje.
23 Q. Did you have a call-sign, Mr. Mitic? A radio call-sign or code?
24 A. Yes, I did. I had a call-sign like any commanding officer or any
25 patrol. My call-sign was Breza 1101.
1 Q. Can we look at paragraph 52 quickly. Do you have it there? He
2 says your call-sign was Breza Tri, number 3. Is it Breza 111? Is that
3 what you mean?
4 A. No, no, that's wrong. Breza 3 wasn't in our directory at all.
5 Breza 1, that was the chief of the secretariat; Breza 2 was the deputy
6 chief; I was Breza 101; and the chief of the traffic police department
7 was 201, as far as I remember. But I think they -- they still have these
8 call-signs even in other stations.
9 Q. Okay. I'm going to try to move a little bit more quickly. If we
10 could move on to another statement.
11 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could I tender that statement and ask
12 that it be received in evidence.
13 JUDGE PARKER: On what --
14 Mr. Djurdjic.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] It has been interpreted to me that
16 Mr. Stamp sought to tender the statement into evidence. I believe that
17 is not possible. The witness did not corroborate any allegation here,
18 nor did the witness come here to testify to this. I cannot see how it
19 can be tendered. Mr. Stamp did read extensively from it, but there's no
20 basis for tendering it. And it hasn't been the practice of this
21 Trial Chamber so far.
22 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honours, could it be marked for
23 identity in case there might be future references to it.
24 JUDGE PARKER: The objection is well-founded. The Chamber will
25 have the document marked for identification because of the attention that
1 has been paid to so much of it, in case that should become an issue at
2 some later stage in the trial with other witnesses or submissions.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P01551, marked for
5 MR. STAMP: Could we return to 65 ter 391 and go to page 17 in
6 both English and B/C/S.
7 Q. This is about someone -- this is a Human Rights Watch report that
8 we looked at earlier, and this is another incident. It's an unnamed
9 person, AD he is called. According to this report, this AD, a primary
10 school teacher with five children from Zaskok village near Urosevac, was
11 arrested on June 20th, 1998
12 prison for 86 days.
13 According to AD, three or four plain-clothed policemen came to
14 his home at 5.30 and ordered him to the police station in Urosevac
15 without an explanation. They beat me -- this is quoting him:
16 "They beat me with a truncheon all over my body but not on the
17 head. They were changing three or four policemen always beating me.
18 They were asking me about the activity in the KLA, about weaponry,
19 et cetera."
20 And later on he says that they used electric shock.
21 Do you know of any investigations conducted at Urosevac police
22 station in respect to the application or infliction of electric shock
23 torture on anybody?
24 A. There have been no such investigations, and I really don't know
25 what kind of electric shocks these are. I don't know what this is about
1 at all. This is the first time I've heard of it. What kind of electric
2 shock? Do they simply connect someone to an electric outlet, or what?
3 Q. So there have been -- well, your answer is that there were no
4 such investigations.
5 A. There were no such investigations, and I don't know what all this
6 is about at all. What kind of electric shocks are these?
7 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I tender the Human Rights Watch report
8 and ask that it be received in evidence and given an exhibit number.
9 JUDGE PARKER: On what --
10 I anticipate you every time, Mr. Djurdjic. Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, the witness didn't
12 confirm any allegation. We had a witness from Human Rights Watch, and
13 this report wasn't tendered through that witness either, so there are no
14 grounds for tendering this document into evidence whatsoever.
15 MR. STAMP: But, Your Honours, we've had evidence as to the
16 methodology used by Human Rights Watch in creating their report and that
17 these reports were reports made for the purposes of investigations and
18 made in the course of their responsibilities as an investigative agency.
19 And, on that basis, these reports have been received in evidence.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Anything further, Mr. Stamp?
21 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Anything in response, Mr. Djurdjic?
23 Very well, for the reasons that have just been given in respect
24 of the last exhibit, the Chamber will also have this document marked for
25 identification. The issue at the moment is not so much whether there
1 were any reports of a certain type that might be known to people, but
2 whether reports that have been put to the witness in this case were
3 reports of conduct that occurred in the Urosevac police station.
4 The Chamber is not persuaded that this document ought to be
5 received for proof of that purpose. It will be marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01552, marked
7 for identification.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. If we could return to those statements, you were shown quite a
10 few of them that were taken by Mr. Jasovic and Mr. Sparavalo, and they
11 were tendered in evidence. Can we have a look at some of them. And I'll
12 try again to move a little bit more quickly.
13 MR. STAMP: Let's look at D840.
14 Q. This statement, what you were shown, go down to the bottom, you
15 see it's taken by Jasovic and Sparavalo.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it purports to be the statements given by these persons, and
18 it's written in the first person. You know that?
19 A. I don't quite understand. Two persons are supposed to have given
20 a statement and yet the singular is used. It's in the singular.
21 Q. Precisely. Do you see where it is indicated on this statement
22 that there was an interpreter or translator involved?
23 A. No, I don't see an indication of the presence of an interpreter.
24 Q. You see in statement he says --
25 A. I only see the first page of the statement on the screen.
1 Q. I think it's a one-page -- oh.
2 A. This is a statement given by Shefqet Beqa and statement taken by
3 authorised officials Dragan Jasovic and Momcilo Sparavalo.
4 Q. And I think you'll agree with me there is no indication of a
5 translator being present. If you go back to the first sentence of this
6 statement or first paragraph of this statement, you see this person is
7 purported to have been giving his statement by saying that "I joined the
8 so-called KLA." Later on in the paragraph he says "I had been accepted
9 into the so-called KLA." You look --
10 A. Yes, but I don't see what's unclear here. So he joined
11 voluntarily and then they accepted him, so he seems to have fulfilled the
13 Q. Yes, I'm just focusing on the expression of "so-called KLA,"
14 which I suggest to you is not the language used by an Albanian member of
15 the KLA. This is the language normally used by the police.
16 A. You know how it went, it was an illegal terrorist organisation
17 and the name of KLA couldn't be an official name, the organisation being
18 illegal and terrorist.
19 Q. Yes, but --
20 A. Well, the man may have phrased it that way.
21 Q. Yes, but isn't that more than strange that a member of the KLA is
22 referring to this organisation as the so-called KLA? Isn't that the way
23 the police speak or refer to the KLA?
24 A. Well, you know what, he as a member also knew that it was an
25 illegal organisation, possibly he put it that way himself. But we all
1 said the so-called KLA, and why not the Albanians too? The loyal
2 Albanians that were loyal to the state of Serbia also sometimes would say
3 the so-called KLA.
4 Q. Yes, but, you know, this statement says that he is a KLA member.
5 Okay. Let's look at the penultimate paragraph.
6 And while we are getting to that, we see in your last answer:
7 "The loyal Albanians that were loyal to the state of Serbia
8 sometimes would say the so-called KLA."
9 Now, that's the way police speak. You see here in this second to
10 last paragraph he says, or he purportedly says:
11 "By order of the KLA Main Staff in Ivaja village, KLA members
12 took away by force over 10 people of the Siptar ethnic minority who were
13 loyal citizens of the Republic of Serbia
14 Now, Mr. Mitic, that is rather strange language for this KLA
15 member to be using. Is it obvious to you that this is a police speaking,
16 using the same language that you just used?
17 A. You know, whatever I were to say now, I would be lying to you. I
18 wasn't present and I don't know what the man stated. I can only from my
19 point of view say that anything is possible. He may have said it, he may
20 not have said it. I cannot rule out any possibility. But I wasn't
22 Q. I'll have you look at --
23 MR. STAMP: If we could, quickly, D837.
24 Q. You see the same sort of, shall I say, police speak in the first
25 sentence, and it's a short sentence so it could even -- no, I wanted --
1 which one is this?
2 MR. STAMP: Could I have one moment, please. This is
3 Exhibit 837. Okay. That's not the one I wanted.
4 Q. But, yes, you see in this one, it's the same sort of thing,
5 "so-called KLA."
6 We could look at another one that you -- was tendered through
8 MR. STAMP: 848.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, I believe that
10 these questions should be put to the persons who took the statement. It
11 would be frivolous for me to comment on this.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. Okay. I won't take you through all of them. But all of them
14 show the signs of this extraordinarily unusual language that we normally
15 see being used in police reports. Again you see this one referring to
16 the so-called KLA, the last paragraph he refers to members of the
17 Siptar Albanian nationality who fled to Albania.
18 Did you ever hear, as head of the police -- okay, I'll withdraw
19 that and show you a document.
20 MR. STAMP: I'd like to take you to another statement. And I
21 know we were going slowly, so I'll see if I can go very quickly with this
23 And could we go in private session, Your Honours, to look at this
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 12788 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 MR. STAMP: 65 ter 6 --
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
22 MR. STAMP: Sorry. 65 ter 6070.
23 Q. This is a statement of the 30th of April, 2005, by an Albanian
24 male from Racak by the name of Faik Ramadani.
25 MR. STAMP: Could we go to paragraph 7 and 8. Very well, if we
1 could go to paragraphs 14 and 15.
2 JUDGE PARKER: We don't have the statement at all in e-court, it
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. Was there one of the inspectors in the crime department of
6 Urosevac police that had a large moustache in 1998 and 1999?
7 A. I apologise. A person who had a large moustache, is that what
8 you are saying?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. And you are referring to the inspectors?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. The only person I know who had a moustache, well that's
13 Momcilo Sparavalo, but he didn't have such a large moustache.
14 Q. This person also says that Jasovic, along with another uniformed
15 policeman with a large moustache -- sorry. May I just withdraw that.
16 He said in paragraph 15 that:
17 "Uniformed policemen began beating me all over my body in front
18 of Jasovic and the other civilian-clothed inspector who had a large
19 moustache. I can't describe it any better. While they were beating me,
20 they asked me why I was running away and I said because the children were
21 petrified over the shooting from Cesta hill. They continued asking me
22 questions and beating me severely with batons until I lost
24 Again, Mr. Mitic, this comes as a surprise to you that these
25 things were happening in the same building that you worked at?
1 A. Believe me, if I were on another planet that I think that things
2 have been exaggerated because Jasovic and Sparavalo had such work to do,
3 and now stories are being told. In my opinion. I can't be certain, but
4 I'm quite convinced, in fact, that this is the reason.
5 Q. Did you --
6 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could that also be marked.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01554, marked
9 for identification.
10 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
11 Q. Did you, in the course of 1998 and 1999, hear of an organisation
12 or a group that was referred to as a Black Hand?
13 A. That's the question, is it?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes, I have heard of the group. There were rumours, comments
16 were made, extensive comments, though that group was formed by
17 so-called KLA members apparently. And in the evening hours and early
18 morning hours it was said that they would drive around in civilian cars
19 and engage in acts of murder and looting. I've heard of such a KLA
20 organisation. Both Serbs and Albanians commented on this. Such was the
21 information, the operative information we had at the time.
22 Q. This Court has heard evidence from one Bedri Hyseni. Do you know
23 this person, Bedri Hyseni; does that name ring a bell?
24 A. The name and surname ring a bell, but I can't remember.
25 Q. He was -- is a human rights activist for an organisation called
1 the Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedom, and he was also
2 a law professor in Kosovo. Does that help you to remember him?
3 A. Now it's a little clearer for me, but I still can't remember what
4 the person looked like. But I believe that there was such a person.
5 Q. Did you hear of the Council for Defence of Human Rights and
6 Freedom? Or did you know of its work?
7 A. Well, perhaps I had heard of it. But as of its work, I didn't
8 know the details.
9 Q. Well, they would issue press releases from time to time about
10 human rights conditions in Kosovo and in Urosevac in particular. Did you
11 know of that?
12 A. I don't remember such things, believe me.
13 Q. Hyseni testified that the actions of the Black Hand, including
14 killings, were aimed at the Kosovo Albanian population. Do you recall
15 Kosovo Albanians being victims of this so-called Black Hand?
16 A. They were the victims, the Serbians, the Albanians, and everyone
17 were the victims if they didn't agree with their plan, with their
18 strategy, with the KLA strategy. I'm not aware of the existence of some
19 other Black Hand.
20 Q. Yes. I think that is where the real difference is. He said that
21 they would go around mainly at night in private cars and commit
22 atrocities, but he is saying that they were committing atrocities
23 primarily against Kosovo Albanians and that they would act in concert
24 with the police. Are you aware of that?
25 A. No, and I don't think that's correct. You know, a lot of
1 propaganda was spread by Albanians with regard to various issues. I
2 don't want to speak about history here, but the purpose was separatism,
3 to have a Kosovo secede. So it was necessary to spread such propaganda.
4 Q. Did you know of a policemen in Urosevac that they called Pokran
5 or Pucran?
6 A. That name means nothing to me, believe me.
7 Q. You know of a policeman with that name who had a BMW motor
9 A. A policeman driving a BMW? Well that was quite rare. The
10 salaries were such that it was impossible to even drive around in a
11 little Fiat.
12 Q. That's why I hoped that you would remember him. Hyseni testified
13 that a policeman named Pukran, known to be very aggressive and crude
14 towards the Kosovo Albanian population at the check-points, would allow
15 his BMW to be used by the Black Hand. This is 4915 of the transcript.
16 Do you know about that?
17 A. Believe me, I've never heard of this name. I don't know. I've
18 never heard of a policeman by that name. But on the whole, I knew all of
20 Q. Hyseni testified at 4889 of the transcript that on one
21 occasion - this would be sometime in 1998 or early 1999 - there were two
22 young men who were killed by the Black Hand, two Albanian young men, and
23 this was not even reported to the police because, and I quote him, and he
24 is speaking of the Urosevac police station at that time:
25 "If you went to the police station at that time, you were hardly
1 likely to come out alive from there."
2 This may be a flowery language, but were you aware that by the
3 time of the NATO intervention, Kosovo Albanians, especially those who are
4 involved in any political action that you might call separatist, were so
5 terrorised and persecuted by the police that many of them feared going to
6 the police station?
7 A. This isn't true. The claim that they couldn't even go to the
8 police station whenever they had matters of interest to deal with, they
9 went to the police station. Saying that they couldn't go is propaganda.
10 And let me tell you another thing. Through the media, I heard of certain
11 individuals who had even been killed. Mehme [phoen] Agani, I believe
12 that's the name, but the perpetrator was found and processed. I think
13 this was in Kosovo Polje, somewhere around there. I read that in the
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw that.
17 MR. STAMP: I think we have to leave that there and move on to
18 another topic, Mr. Mitic.
19 Before I do, I'm reminded that the document marked P5053 should
20 be received under seal, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Do you mean P1553?
22 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be under seal. Are you moving on now?
24 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. Oh, I -- it might well be a
25 convenient time.
1 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the second break and resume at 1.00.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit.
7 Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Mr. Mitic, you told us earlier about the sincerity of
10 Mr. Janicevic. Are you aware that he attended this Tribunal and
11 testified in another case in 2005?
12 A. Yes, I heard of that, but I don't know the details because I
13 didn't follow the proceedings.
14 Q. Well, right throughout your testimony, mainly in chief, you gave
15 us a lot of evidence which was based on information you received from
16 him, and I take it you relied upon information that you received from
18 A. Well, I relied on that information because he was a chief of the
19 secretariat, and he familiarised us with dispatches and other documents
20 at meetings.
21 Q. I'd like you to comment on certain aspects of what he said when
22 he testified here under solemn declaration.
23 MR. STAMP: And if we could look at the transcript of the
24 Milosevic trial, 4th of October, 2005, at page 41153. I think we
25 uploaded it into e-court at 6068, but it is part of the records of this
1 Tribunal, so it should be available. 45153, if we could try to find that
2 page. Oh, it appears that the numbers in e-court might not be ... they
3 might not correspond to the numbers on the document. It's page 58 in
5 Q. And let me read to you what the SUP chief Janicevic said:
6 "I think it was on the 12th of January. Prior to that, operative
7 intelligence was sent to the MUP staff in Pristina about the events
8 taking place in Stimlje municipality on the axis toward Dulje, in the
9 Crnoljevo gorge, and on the Pristina-Urosevac road.
10 "On the 12th, at my briefing with my commanders, I agree that we
11 would make a draft plan for an anti-terrorist action to be submitted to
12 the staff in Urosevac because we knew by that time that there was a large
13 terrorist group of about 80 men headed by Afet Bilalli, nickname Qopa,
14 who was mounting daily attacks on the road, targeting anything that
15 moves. They were kidnapping innocent people, stopping traffic, attacking
16 the police and the convoys. The last in the series of attacks was the
17 attack on Slivovo village where policeman Przic was killed. I sent this
18 plan to Pristina, to the MUP staff."
19 Is this, what I just read, true to the best of your recollection?
20 A. As far as I remember, it was roughly that way. Around the 12th,
21 Mr. Janicevic, the chief of the secretariat, drafted his suggestion. But
22 with regard to the intelligence and everything else, I believe he made a
23 security assessment, as far as I remember, and that was the assessment of
24 the situation in the field.
25 Q. Following that, he testified that:
1 "When I arrived at the staff, I presented this plan in the
2 presence of staff commander Lukic and the head of the department
3 Vlastimir Djordjevic. I told them about everything that was going on.
4 They had known some of this information from before. They looked at the
5 plan, and they accepted it."
6 Firstly, were you aware that he presented the plan to Mr. Lukic?
7 A. I knew that the plan had been taken to the staff, and we got
8 feedback that the staff had approved the plan. Or rather, that the --
9 that a plan would be worked out at staff level --
10 Q. Very well.
11 A. -- for the purpose of apprehending the terrorists.
12 Q. We are talking about people here. Mr. Lukic was head of the
13 staff. He says he presented the plan in the presence of the head of the
14 staff, Lukic, and the head of the department, Mr. Djordjevic.
15 Firstly, did you become aware that he presented a plan to
16 the -- to General Lukic?
17 A. The chief didn't tell us at the meeting, nor did I hear it from
18 anybody else except --
19 Q. Did you become aware -- did you become aware that he also
20 presented the plan to General Djordjevic?
21 A. No. I never heard of General Djordjevic being acquainted with
22 this plan.
23 Q. Were you aware that both Lukic and Mr. Djordjevic were aware of
24 much of the intelligence in respect to what was happening in Stimlje?
25 And this is about the 12th of January.
1 A. I can say that General Lukic was aware. I'm sure that he
2 monitored the situation. But I don't know about General Djordjevic. We
3 weren't, but --
4 Q. Very well, you don't know about Mr. Djordjevic. That's an
5 answer. This is what Mr. Janicevic testified to under solemn declaration
6 here. Do you have any reason that you can offer why Mr. Janicevic would
7 be lying about these matters?
8 A. I can say that he wouldn't be lying. He probably mixed up the
9 dates or possibly his memory isn't reliable enough, because he had family
10 problems and many other problems. I believe that he couldn't remember
11 all details. And possibly it was due to carelessness that he gave such a
12 statement and not because he intentionally wanted to lie.
13 Q. So your -- very well. That is your explanation.
14 He said, further:
15 "Goran Radosavljevic, as staff member, was appointed to lead this
16 action. The action was agreed to take place on the 13th; however, on the
17 13th, it was not carried out because the weather did not allow it. It
18 was too cold and there were other problems as well. We postponed it
19 until the 15th."
20 A. I am not aware of this situation, namely the fact that the
21 operation was delayed. Nobody informed me.
22 Q. He goes on:
23 "On the 14th, in the evening, at the office of the head of the
24 SUP, that's where I was, in addition to company commander, the chief of
25 the police station was invited, Goran Radosavljevic as well, as well as
1 the leader of the Operative Pursuit Group and platoon commanders, and
2 Colonel" - and there was an interruption - "who was also invited to
3 acquaint himself with this plan. There was no signing. Nobody signed.
4 Radosavljevic; Colonel Krsman, Jelic; or anybody else."
5 So I think what Mr. Janicevic was saying - it seems quite clear
6 here - that Colonel Jelic was also invited to acquaint himself with this
8 I think that is your testimony. Does this, which I read, accord
9 with your memory? Is it substantively correct -- substantially correct?
10 A. You know something, last time I also emphasised that I was
11 summoned by the chief on the 14th in the evening. The chief of the SUP
12 was there; then the commander of the PJP company Lecic; then
13 Goran Radosavljevic, who headed the OPG on the following day; and
14 Krsman Jelic was invited later because he was to be informed only. The
15 administration building of the military was just across the road. We
16 were neighbours.
17 Q. Yes, but it sounds to me that you agree with what I just read of
18 the testimony of Mr. Janicevic, Bogoljub Janicevic, is substantially
19 correct. Do you agree with that?
20 A. What precisely do you mean, because you asked a lot of questions
21 so could you be more precise. What do you want me to confirm?
22 Q. I think you already have. There was this meeting on the 14th
23 with the company commanders, yourself, the chief of the police station,
24 Goran Radosavljevic, and Colonel Jelic? That's correct, isn't it?
25 A. The company commander, one man, not several. Not company
1 commanders, just one company commander.
2 Q. And the rest is substantially correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So:
5 "The plan was only approved, and the approval process is done on
6 the map including the participation of the head of department because all
7 the preconditions had been created for mounting this anti-terrorist
8 operation and for eliminating this terrorist group that had already
9 wielded a lot of evil in the area."
10 He's saying, essentially, that they -- there needed to be no
11 agreement or signing in this meeting because a plan had been approved
12 already by the head of the department which -- who is General Djordjevic,
13 again repeating the same thing he said earlier. Is Mr. Janicevic -- was
14 he being untruthful, or was he a man that you rely upon to speak the
16 A. I claim with full responsibility that not even on that evening
17 was General Djordjevic mentioned. He merely explained to us that the
18 plan had been approved at the level of the staff and that the operation
19 was to take place on the following day. He gave that information to
20 Colonel Jelic because he needed to know because of his people. He was
21 the commander of that area and had to be informed of a police operation
22 taking place.
23 MR. STAMP: Very well. If we could move to page 41 -- sorry,
24 page 45157. I think that's two -- about two or three pages further on.
25 Q. In this section, Mr. Geoffrey Nice is asking Mr. Janicevic
1 questions on the basis of a statement given by Mr. Radosavljevic, and
2 from lines 8 he is quoting a question to Mr. Radosavljevic. And this is
3 in respect to the events of the 15th of January.
4 "General Djordjevic was close to the scene, was he in a police
5 station or a command post?"
6 And Radosavljevic said:
7 "I later heard he was in the police station. I met him at night,
8 in the evening."
9 Then Radosavljevic was asked:
10 "Which police station was that?"
11 The answer:
12 "The police station in Stimlje, which was the closest police
14 Then Mr. Nice goes further down -- a couple of questions further
15 down in Radosavljevic's statement -- or question/answer:
16 "Q. General Lukic was in the immediate area of
17 the operation ...?"
18 "A. I think he was in the staff, because I talked to him through
19 the radio a few times."
20 That was the answer of Mr. Radosavljevic. And then Mr. Nice
21 asked Mr. Janicevic:
22 "Do you agree with all that about Mr. Djordjevic and Lukic?"
23 And Janicevic said:
24 "Lukic was at the staff and Djordjevic was at the staff too."
25 Were you aware that that day, the 15th, both Mr. Lukic and
1 Mr. Djordjevic were at the staff in Pristina?
2 A. No, I had no such information.
3 Q. Then Mr. Nice asked:
4 "And at the police station --"
5 And Mr. Janicevic said:
6 "But -- may I just explain, please. At 1100, Djordjevic came to
7 the police station in Stimlje with his driver. He came to make
8 inquiries, to find out how the operation was coming along, and at 11.30
9 he left for Pristina. Therefore, Goran Radosavljevic had not the
10 slightest chance to meet him at the police station in Stimlje.
11 General Djordjevic spent about 30 minutes at the police station all
12 in all."
13 "What about contacts with --"
14 And the answer of General -- of Mr. Janicevic is:
15 "He didn't even sit down."
16 Mr. Janicevic is here saying - and let's not quibble about the
17 time. He says 11.00, but the central piece of this is that
18 General Djordjevic came there that morning, the 15th.
19 Do you agree with Mr. Janicevic's evidence on this point? Did
20 you know that he came there that morning?
21 A. Believe me, I remember the 18th when we carried out an on-site
22 investigation --
23 Q. 15th, did you know that he was there on the 15th?
24 A. No. No, I can claim with full responsibility that I didn't see
25 General Djordjevic there on the 15th. And, again, I'm saying that
1 perhaps Janicevic confused the dates.
2 Q. Well, he might have made a mistake with the time, but you see
3 that he is not just speaking about a date, he is speaking about a
4 context. He is giving evidence about how the operation was planned and
5 it developed. So a mistake in terms of numbers and dates doesn't arise
6 here, Mr. Mitic.
7 Let me ask you this -- or let me put it to you that
8 Mr. Janicevic, your chief, testified to the truth when said that
9 Mr. Djordjevic went to Stimlje the morning of the operation.
10 A. I don't think he is right. I remember very well -- well, to be
11 frank, I didn't see General Djordjevic very often, but I remember this
12 very well because I was ordered to carry out this on-site investigation
13 on behalf of the general.
14 Q. Well, my next suggestion is that General Djordjevic was there in
15 your presence, he was in a room present with you and the SUP chief
16 Mr. Janicevic?
17 A. Yes, he was, but on the 18th.
18 Q. On the 15th, my suggestion is, at the onset of this operation, he
19 was present in the room with yourself and Mr. Janicevic?
20 A. Sir, my memory still serves me well. I remember this very well.
21 And I'm telling you the reason for which I can remember this, it's
22 because the SUP chief in the presence of the general ordered me to take
23 an on-site investigation team to Racak.
24 Q. Well, you speak about memory. Would you agree with me that
25 General Djordjevic -- would you agree with me that Mr. Janicevic's memory
1 in October 2005 would be fresher in respect to these events than your
2 memory now? I withdraw that. That's a rhetorical question.
3 If we could move on. From line 6, the question was:
4 "What about contacts with or did you make phone calls to
5 Mr. Sainovic or did --"
6 To which Mr. Janicevic responded:
7 "What contact?"
8 And Mr. Nice said after that:
9 "Were there phone calls made to Mr. Sainovic from your police
11 And he responded:
12 "I have never spoken to Sainovic in my life."
14 "Were you aware of his speaking to anybody else at your police
16 To which Mr. Janicevic responded:
17 "Nobody from the police station, no. No, not from the police
19 You remember Mr. Maisonneuve had said that Mr. Janicevic was
20 erudite and sometimes could - and I'm para-phrasing him - could evade a
21 question, you needed to press him. Well, we see here he is being asked
22 about Mr. Sainovic speaking to somebody at the police station, and he
23 answers twice, making a distinction to somebody from the police station.
24 Well, I'd like to ask you to search your memory. Can you remember that a
25 call came to Mr. Sainovic -- sorry, a call came into Mr. Djordjevic, not
1 one, two calls, from Mr. Sainovic on the morning when he was at the
2 police station?
3 A. No, sir. Let me repeat this. On the 18th, when
4 General Djordjevic came to Stimlje, the SUP chief, myself, and
5 Danica Marinkovic, the investigative judge were present. Then there
6 was --
7 Q. No, there is really no need to repeat it. I've heard it more
8 than once. I --
9 A. I only wanted to say that at that time between the
10 15 or 20 minutes that we spent there together, well, I went to Racak with
11 this on-site investigation team. And after that, I don't know whether he
12 had contact with anyone. But that wasn't the case while I was there.
13 Q. Well, when you left to go to Racak, did you leave Mr. Djordjevic
14 in the office?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In any case, you are saying, I suppose, that it is possible that
17 something might have happened after you left, but my suggestion to you,
18 again, is that Mr. Djordjevic was there on the morning of the 15th while
19 the operation was on-going.
20 A. No, as far as my memory serves me, I remember this very well, and
21 I have given you the reason. On the 15th, he wasn't there. But the 18th
22 is more interesting for publicity and so on and so forth. So that's why
23 I assume the ministry sent him. And I was there on the 18th.
24 Q. Mr. Janicevic, in his testimony on the 30th of September, 2005
25 in the Milosevic case at page 44906 of the record, I wonder if we could
1 have a look at that very briefly.
2 A. I only have the English version. I don't have the other version
3 on the screen.
4 Q. I'll read it to you and I'll try to read it slowly, so if you
5 could listen carefully. Yes, at this point, Judge Kwon said:
6 "We've had enough, so why don't you go straight to 15 January."
7 And again, it's the third time, Mr. Janicevic -- the question is
9 "Let's clear this up. You just mentioned this plan. That plan
10 was approve. Who approved it?"
11 And Mr. Janicevic said:
12 "Chief of sector, Vlastimir Djordjevic."
13 For the third time - I just want you to focus - this is the third
14 occasion that Mr. Janicevic testified to this. Can't you recall becoming
15 aware that the approval procedure involved Mr. Djordjevic? He was, in
16 fact, the chief.
17 A. No, by no means. I'm quite convinced that the staff took the
18 decision, drew up a plan, and General Djordjevic, well, perhaps he was
19 subsequently familiarised with this, but he didn't take any decisions
20 with regard to this matter.
21 Q. He was also asked:
22 "How many policemen were engaged in the implementation of the
23 operation, from your secretariat and from the staff?"
24 And his response was:
25 "One hundred and five members of the Special Police Unit and 30
1 members of the Operation Pursuit Group."
2 And the next question:
3 "The 105 members were from your secretariat and you are their
4 immediate superior?"
5 And the answer was:
7 Those two answers that Mr. Janicevic gave, are they substantially
9 A. No, there were 105 members, that's the Urosevac company strength.
10 I am not sure about these 30 men; I don't know whether the figure was
11 higher perhaps for these members of the special group. As far as the
12 Special Police Unit is concerned, the chief of the secretariat couldn't
13 have led that unit. Perhaps he believed that they were his men, his
14 employees, but as for him directly leading that special unit, no, not
15 even in a dream, because they have their own chain of command.
16 Q. But they were employees of his SUP?
17 A. Yes, they were SUP employees. So perhaps that's why he counted
18 them as his own men.
19 MR. STAMP: If it would please Your Honours, I would like to
20 tender those passages from Mr. Janicevic's testimony and ask that they be
21 received in evidence.
22 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
23 Mr. Djurdjic, I see you standing.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think it should be done
25 under the same conditions that were applied to similar statements. It
1 should be marked for identification; and if so, then I have no
3 MR. STAMP: If you I may, Your Honour, with respect, this now is
4 an entirely different situation. While I concede that counsel might have
5 been right in respect to the earlier statements the witness was shown, in
6 this case, this is a witness of -- this is a statement of a chief of a
7 SUP. And before -- I don't think I need to remind the Court that the
8 hearsay would be admissible before the Tribunal depending on the
9 reliability. The important thing is that in this case it was the Defence
10 that opened the door to the reliability of the statement. In chief, they
11 asked the witness to testify to a variety of matters that the witness
12 could only testify to on the basis of what Mr. Janicevic said. And
13 that's why it's an important reason why this is different, because the
14 Defence has opened the door to the admissibility of Mr. Janicevic's
16 And the other thing is that this is a sworn statement given
17 before the Tribunal, so it is manifestly reliable on its face. And he
18 was cross-examined at the time. And I think equally important is that
19 much of his statement that was put to him, most of it, was accepted by
20 the witness as being true. So the remaining parts that he is not sure of
21 or that he cannot accept, would be admissible with those parts that he
22 accepts at least to provide context. But it is the Prosecution's
23 submission that the Defence, having opened the door to these statements
24 from Mr. Janicevic, all of it should be received in evidence. May it
25 please you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: In the Chamber's view, the statement should be
2 received -- the testimony that's recorded in the transcript should be
3 received in evidence as an exhibit. It does so because there can be no
4 question as to the circumstances in which that evidence was given and
5 that it was given under oath and as to who made it. To what extent, if
6 any, the Chamber may have regard to the contents of that evidence or
7 relevance to questions of fact and truth is something the Chamber will
8 determine when it comes to consider the whole of the evidence. It is not
9 necessarily or automatically the case because this evidence is now
10 received that it would place any reliance on that transcript for issues
11 of truth.
12 I've said that to make it clear to you and to Mr. Djurdjic that
13 you should not read too much into the reception of this transcript.
14 Thank you.
15 You are still standing, Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to respond to Mr. Stamp.
17 I have understood you, but I don't think Mr. Stamp's arguments hold
18 water. We've had a number of statements we've quoted from the transcript
19 here --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Don't worry about his arguments, worry about our
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01555.
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. Have you --
25 MR. STAMP: Well, Your Honours, I'm moving to an entirely
1 different topic, and I just --
2 JUDGE PARKER: We must interrupt you then, I am afraid,
3 Mr. Stamp, because there are other trial and other commitments by us
4 continuing in the day.
5 We must adjourn now to resume on Monday. We must ask you to
6 remain over the weekend, and we continue on Monday. A Court Officer will
7 give you further assistance when we adjourn. We now adjourn.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day
11 of March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.