Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13175

 1                           Monday, 22 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic is continuing his questions.

 9                           WITNESS:  VUKASIN JOKANOVIC [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Examination by Mr. Djurdjic:  [Continued]

12        Q.   Thank you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon, Mr. Jokanovic.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14        Q.   For the sake of the transcript could we please clarify a few

15     things.  After the vote was held concerning the amendments to the Serbian

16     constitution, did the Kosovo Assembly resume its work?

17        A.   There was a 20-minute break after which the Assembly continued

18     working in Chambers.  An introductory address was then done by Mr. Susuri

19     who was the deputy prime minister of the Kosovo government.  The Yugoslav

20     programme on the prevention of people immigrating from Kosovo and

21     returning those who had immigrated to come back was considered, as well

22     as the issue of appointments and elections.  A number of judges and court

23     presidents were elected as well as prosecutors.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You said that after the Assembly held on the 23rd of

25     March, 1998, there was a European parliament delegation which came to

Page 13176

 1     visit who comprised the delegation and who received it?

 2        A.   I received the European parliament delegation.  Whether they met

 3     with anyone from the official institutions in addition to meeting me,

 4     that is something I don't know.  I do think their intention was to visit

 5     only the speaker of the Assembly.  I held talks with them, they were

 6     fruitful.  I explained the situation in Kosovo and discussed with them

 7     the provincial Assembly session in question as well as the contents of

 8     the amendments that were carried a few days before that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P286.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  While that is coming up, Mr. Djurdjic, line 19 of

12     page 1, I don't think we have the correct name of the deputy prime

13     minister of the Kosovo government.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Jokanovic, can you slowly tell us the first and last name of

16     the vice-president of the executive Chamber or council of Kosovo

17     Assembly?

18        A.   It was the vice-president of the Executive Council of Kosovo

19     Hazir Susuri with two Ss.  Do I need to repeat that?

20        Q.   No, that's fine.  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             Mr. Jokanovic, on the screen we have the transcript of a

22     statement by Mr. Rugova, which he gave, actually this is his testimony in

23     the case against Mr. Milosevic.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to the 3rd of

25     May, 2002, page 4191.

Page 13177

 1        Q.   There's no need for you to try to find what I'm looking for.

 2     I'll read out to you what Mr. Rugova said in his answer.  Lines 4 to 12

 3     Mr. Rugova states:

 4             "Yes, the Kosovo Assembly was supposed to discuss the suspension

 5     of the federal status of Kosova inside the Federation and its autonomous

 6     status.  Great pressure was brought to bear on the deputies of the

 7     parliament to vote in favour of that measure, but the public was against,

 8     that is to say, the citizens and people at large.  Pressure and violence

 9     was used.  I remember there were tanks surrounding the parliament

10     building.  In the parliament building itself, there were police, secret

11     police dressed in civilian clothes.  Therefore, the members had to vote

12     under pressure.  Some members did vote."

13             Mr. Jokanovic, there is a number of issues contained in this

14     answer.  I would like to break them down.  First of all, did the Kosovo

15     Assembly discuss the suspension of the status of Kosovo within the

16     Federation?

17        A.   The Kosova Assembly did not discuss such suspension of Kosovo

18     within the Federation.  It could not have because the position of the

19     province was prescribed under the SFRY constitution.  These amendments

20     did not go to change the status of province within the Federation itself.

21     It is contained within the amendments themselves, amendments 9 through to

22     49.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any tanks around the parliamentary

24     building of Kosova during the session?

25        A.   There were no tanks around the parliament building.  There was

Page 13178

 1     also a statement to the effect that there were armoured vehicles.  There

 2     were none of those either.  The situation was quite calm around the

 3     Assembly building.  There were 180 journalists and reporters,

 4     representatives and guests from all over the country.  No one, however,

 5     took note of that.  No one published that fact.  No paper in Yugoslavia

 6     or in the world carried that.  As for the tanks and armoured vehicles and

 7     the police inside the building, this is something I heard only as late as

 8     1986 when Baton Haxhiu he was a witness here, I believe, I'll recall his

 9     last name later.  He interviewed me for the "Koha" newspaper.  He put

10     that very question to me.  "Koha" translated into Serbo-Croatian means

11     time.  Baton Haxhiu.  I gave him that interview and I basically said

12     everything I'm telling you now.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Next Mr. Rugova says that there were secret police in

14     the building dressed in civilian clothes and that because of that, the

15     Assembly deputy said to vote under pressure.  Were there any pressures

16     exerted, Mr. Jokanovic?

17        A.   The Assembly, much as any other Assembly in the world, had its

18     security service at the entrance.  No one could enter the building unless

19     they were invited or working in the building, or if they had not been

20     accredited as journalists.  As for any secret police, that's something

21     I'm not aware of.  I would have known had there been any.  Any deputy or

22     at least one of the them would have mentioned that for sure.  They were

23     not in the Assembly building.

24        Q.   Thank you.  On the same page, lines 14 to 16, Mr. Rugova states:

25             "I remember ten members voting against it.  Then these members

Page 13179

 1     were sentenced, punished somewhere, sent to prison somewhere."

 2             Mr. Jokanovic, was anyone sentenced because of voting against the

 3     changes out of the representatives there and deputies?

 4        A.   The members of the Assembly as in any other Assembly enjoy

 5     immunity.  They cannot be prosecuted unless their immunity is revoked by

 6     the Assembly itself.  So the delegates who voted against could not have

 7     been arrested or prosecuted in any way.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You said that at a later point there were also some

 9     amendments carried concerning the provincial constitution.  When did that

10     take place?

11        A.   In mid-1989, say in June or July.  I can't recall exactly.  This

12     happened based on the amendments to the Serbian constitution.  Before

13     that, there had also been amendment made to the federal constitution.

14     Those amendments had to do with certain economic issues as well as issues

15     of self-governing of associated labour, as we called it at the time.  It

16     was necessary to carry out this harmonisation exercise between the Kosovo

17     constitution with the constitutions of Serbia and the federal

18     constitution.

19             So during the session in June or July, those amendments were

20     carried to the Kosovo constitution.  I explained the gist of those

21     constitutions after which there was a vote.  They were carried

22     unanimously.  There were no issues surrounding the whole thing because

23     the provincial status was preserved within the Federation, i.e., that the

24     province was a constituent part of Serbia and the Federation, which had

25     been the bedrock of the constitutions -- of the constitution of the 1989.

Page 13180

 1        Q.   During the session in June, were there any delegates against the

 2     amendments made to the Serbian constitution which took place in March?

 3        A.   I cannot recall them individually, but the Assembly comprised the

 4     same members.  I can't tell you exactly who was present because it's been

 5     a long time, and I couldn't definitely recall every person's name.  I

 6     presume they were there although some of them may have been absent.  In

 7     any case, there was sufficient two-third majority at the Assembly which

 8     were in favour of the amendments to the constitution of Kosovo.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, until which time the provincial

10     Assembly worked in that composition?

11        A.   The Assembly worked in that composition until December.  In

12     December new elections were scheduled in Kosovo and in the Republic of

13     Serbia.  All of the citizens participated in those elections and the

14     response of the voters was quite large.  The deputies were elected for

15     the new Assembly in those elections as well as the members of the Serbian

16     Assembly following which all organs and all bodies was established both

17     in the province and in the Federation which is to say that Djordje

18     Bozovic was elected speaker of the Kosovo Assembly.  Kamdonce [phoen],

19     was president of the Presidency, and other officials were appointed to

20     various offices, to the crisis council and so on.  All other organs were

21     established within the province.

22        Q.   Can you just tell us in which year these elections were held?

23        A.   In December of 1989.

24        Q.   Do you remember what the political situation was like in the SFRY

25     after those general elections and throughout 1990?

Page 13181

 1        A.   In 1990 the political situation in Yugoslavia was quite

 2     unfavourable.  The relations deteriorated and the situation was quite

 3     unfavourable in view of the prospective and the survival of Yugoslavia.

 4     I don't remember exactly the date, but during that period of time, from

 5     the central committee of the legal communists of Yugoslavia, the

 6     delegates of Slovenia walked out.  They left that body, following which

 7     the delegates from Croatia left that body too.  So that the league of

 8     communists was significantly weakened, and this heralded the

 9     disintegration of Yugoslavia.  While Tito was alive he was the factor

10     that preserved the unity of Yugoslavia, but after his death the key

11     element at preserving the unity of Yugoslavia was the League of

12     Communists of Yugoslavia, and once the League of Communists of Yugoslavia

13     started disintegrating, this heralded the falling apart of Yugoslavia

14     which in its turn caused the situation in the entire country to be very

15     unfavourable and difficult.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Following those elections, who was the president of

17     the Presidency of Kosovo and also who was the president -- chairman of

18     the League of Communists in Kosovo?

19        A.   In that year it was Rrahman Morina who was the chairman of the

20     League of Communists.  Prior to him it was Azem Vllasi.

21        Q.   What about the president of the Executive Council which was the

22     government?

23        A.   The president of the Executive Council in the previous

24     composition was Nazim Mustafa and after that --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name.

Page 13182

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   How did the events in SFRY that you just described effect the

 3     situation in Kosovo and Metohija?

 4        A.   The events in Yugoslavia at the beginning of disintegration of

 5     the League of Communists as the element that kept the country together

 6     directly affected the situation in Kosovo since it became evident that

 7     the disintegration of Yugoslavia was imminent and that referendums were

 8     being prepared in Slovenia and also other events which transpired later

 9     on in Kosovo the political parties that were established, the democratic

10     Alliance of Kosovo and also other political parties that were registered

11     and also those that were not registered, all of them started working

12     quite actively.  They saw their chance in the disintegration of

13     Yugoslavia.  They saw that they could attain their separatist goals of

14     separating Kosovo from Serbia and Yugoslavia.  This is why they copied

15     the conduct and the event of people in Slovenia and later on in Croatia.

16             But to make it clear, unlike Slovenia and to some extent Croatia,

17     there was a major constitutional hindrance that prevented Kosovo from

18     becoming independent.  Kosovo was not a republic, and Albanians,

19     according to the constitution, were not a nation but a nationality.

20     Whereas the constitution of Yugoslavia guaranteed self-determination and

21     cessation only to the republics and only to nations, and this province

22     did not have that right under the constitution.

23             This is why a separatist activity was being conducted in Kosovo

24     which grew into a separatist nationalist movement aimed at giving an

25     identical status to Kosovo even if it was unconstitutional but granting

Page 13183

 1     it the status of a republic so that they could use it in order to achieve

 2     their goal.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how did the events in Kosovo and

 4     Metohija unfold following that, according to what you know?

 5        A.   In mid-1990 this newly elected Assembly due to all of these

 6     events in Yugoslavia and due to an open separatism that emerged in

 7     Yugoslavia, the problems in Kosovo emerged and became more tense.  I

 8     could tell you about the problems that I was most familiar with, and

 9     those were problems in the provincial Assembly.  It was head by Bosa

10     Djordjevic, and the Assembly had major difficulties in work, the work

11     could not transpire in a normal atmosphere.  Rather there were frequent

12     chaotic situations, people pushing each other away from the speaking

13     podium and having major conflicts in the work -- in the session of the

14     Assembly among the delegates.  Something that a president of the Assembly

15     Djordje Bozovic frequently mentioned was that Albanian delegates wanted

16     to read the declaration on independence of Kosovo at the Assembly session

17     and then suspended work of the session.  Djordje Bozovic and other

18     delegates disagreed with that, and the work of the Assembly was

19     discontinued because it couldn't continue normally, and it couldn't

20     continue in a normal atmosphere where delegates would take the floor in a

21     normal procedure.

22        Q.   After the work of the Assembly was disrupted, what happened

23     afterwards --

24             MR. STAMP:  I'm not objecting, and I have no problems with the

25     witness answering the question.  It's just that the witness in the

Page 13184

 1     introductory part of his testimony yesterday indicated that he had been

 2     elected to a position outside of Kosovo by the latter part of 1989.  So,

 3     therefore, in 1990 and thereafter he would be involved in work outside of

 4     Kosovo.  Not that the evidence is not admissible, but the usual practice

 5     is that if it is going to be hearsay, he should at least give the basis

 6     for his information, the basis for the evidence that he is giving.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, I think you followed that.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can you hear me?  I think that the

 9     witness is about to lay the foundation as to where he gained the

10     knowledge about what had happened there.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  It's not a matter of thinking.  You should ensure

12     that he first has done so.  If you could achieve that, thank you.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I were to give an

14     explanation, then I would be testifying, and we have a witness here in

15     the witness box so this is why I would like --

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Your questions must lay the foundation and then

17     the relevant evidence.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, in mid-1990 what office did you hold?

20        A.   I was in Belgrade.  I was deputy president of the Assembly of

21     Serbia.

22        Q.   Thank you.  As deputy president of the Assembly of Serbia, did

23     you have contact with the president of the Kosovo Assembly and with the

24     delegates in the Kosovo Assembly, and if so, describe those contacts to

25     us?

Page 13185

 1        A.   I mostly was in contact with the president of the Kosovo

 2     Assembly, Djordje Bozovic.  I had official contacts with him via

 3     telephone and in personal contact, and I also had contacts with other

 4     delegates on various occasions, but mostly with the president, Djordje

 5     Bozovic.  Since I was from Kosovo, when it came to any major problems and

 6     issues, they would inform me.  He, Djordje Bozovic, would inform the

 7     president of the Serbian Assembly but also me.  And then the president of

 8     the Serbian Assembly given the fact that I was from Kosovo would also

 9     inform me about what he had learned from Djordje Bozovic and about the

10     work of the Kosovo Assembly.  So the prosecutor is quite right, I was

11     indeed in Belgrade, and I wasn't directly personally present, however,

12     the source of the information I received was the president of the Kosovo

13     Assembly and also on some occasions president of the Serbian Assembly.

14        Q.   Did you attend any meetings where president of the Kosovo

15     Assembly was also present in mid-1990 and if so, what happened at that

16     meeting?

17        A.   Yes.  Djordje Bozovic, president of the Kosovo Assembly, came to

18     Belgrade to a meeting with a large group of delegates of the Kosovo

19     Assembly, a meeting with the president of the Serbian Assembly and other

20     political leaders in Serbia to voice the problems he was encountering and

21     proposals as to what needs to be done.  A meeting was held in Belgrade.

22     I was asked to attend that meeting by the then-president of the Serbian

23     Assembly Zoran Sokolovic, and I did come to that meeting as did other

24     officials of Serbia.  Djordje Bozovic and the delegates from Kosovo

25     informed us that they were unable to continue working normally, that the

Page 13186

 1     Assembly was faced with a situation where any normal work was no longer

 2     possible and they didn't want to continue with their Assembly session in

 3     Pristina.  They didn't want to go back to Pristina.  After long talks and

 4     efforts to convince them, delegates did return to Pristina and continued

 5     the work of the provincial Assembly, but it didn't last for a long time.

 6     Once they resumed their work, they worked only briefly because Dr.

 7     Stanoje Dogandzic, a university professor, took the floor and on behalf

 8     of some delegates, he spoke saying that the Assembly did not have the

 9     necessary conditions for normal work, and he asked the president of the

10     Assembly to officially address the authorities so that the Assembly

11     discontinued its work.  There were some commotion, from what I could

12     understand, and once again the Assembly was suspended.  And then a

13     request was sent to the Serbian Assembly to temporarily dismiss the

14     Assembly of Kosovo.

15        Q.   And how did the Serbian Assembly react to this proposal?

16        A.   The Assembly scheduled sessions of all three Chambers and adopted

17     the law on dissolving the provincial Assembly which said that until the

18     new Assembly was re-established, the republic Assembly would continue the

19     work of the provincial Assembly.

20        Q.   And what was the reaction of the Albanian delegates in the Kosovo

21     Assembly after the Assembly was dissolved?

22        A.   Given the information that Djordje Bozovic had and that he

23     conveyed to me, and given that there was an effort to read the

24     declaration at the session of the Assembly, when the Assembly was

25     dissolved, a number of delegates assembled in front of the Assembly

Page 13187

 1     building.  One of those who was present came from the circle of public

 2     figures and renowned figures.  I think he was from the provincial

 3     theatre, and he read the declaration according to which Kosovo was

 4     independent and Kosovo was declared to be a state.  There was a TV crew

 5     that recorded that and the reading of that declaration took place right

 6     next to the building of the provincial Assembly.

 7        Q.   According to your knowledge, when did this take place, this

 8     reading of the declaration in front of the provincial Assembly building?

 9        A.   That was in 1990 when Yugoslavia started falling apart, when

10     tensions escalated, when the work of the Assembly of the province became

11     quite difficult, and when other organs could no longer function.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember the month when that took place?

13        A.   I remember that it was either in June or July.

14        Q.   Which year?

15        A.   1990.

16        Q.   What about the session when the amendments to the constitution of

17     the Republic of Serbia were approved, when did that take place?

18        A.   On the 23rd of March, 1989, which is to say, some 18 months prior

19     to that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Jokanovic, what was the nature of your

21     relationship with the Albanians that you worked and lived with in Kosovo

22     and Metohija?

23        A.   I was born in Kosovo.  I completed my elementary and secondary

24     school in Kosovo.  For most of my work life I worked in Kosovo until the

25     year 1990, so my relation with the Albanians, the Turks, and members of

Page 13188

 1     other nationalities and obviously with the Serbs, were very good.  They

 2     did not only involve our common work, are our common political activity

 3     but also we used to spend time socially, privately, and we would visit

 4     one another's homes.  We celebrated together different weddings and other

 5     festivities, so generally speaking, I had very good relations with

 6     Albanians.  I had many friends who were Albanians and Turks.  I also have

 7     such friends today.  Unfortunately some of those Albanian friends are my

 8     former friends, I certainly hope they will be my future friends as well.

 9     Some of them are also coming to see me in Belgrade, we visit regularly

10     and we discuss the current issues in Kosovo.

11        Q.   Mr. Jokanovic, you told us that you were from the village of

12     Grmovo.  Could you tell us in your village what was the ethnic

13     composition of the population there?

14        A.   I was born in Gornje Slatina because my father who was a teacher

15     at the time worked in that village, and his native village and my native

16     village was Grmovo was the adjacent village to Gornje Slatina.  So in

17     Grmovo, I had a family house, and this is the village that I considered

18     to be my home village.

19             You asked me about the ethnic composition of Grmovo.  In my

20     village of Grmovo the ethnic composition changed as it did everywhere

21     else in Kosovo, so in 1960s there were more than 70 houses that belonged

22     to Serbs and Montenegrins, and some 15 that belonged to Albanians.  Later

23     on, the number of houses as well as the population was reduced, and

24     before the NATO bombing, we had some 30 plus Montenegrin and Serbian

25     houses and over 100 Albanian houses.  Out of the population of some 550

Page 13189

 1     or 600, who were Serbs, that number was reduced to approximately 150.  So

 2     the ethnic composition changed, the Albanians are nowadays a majority,

 3     and the number of Albanian households also forms a majority.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you still have a family house in your home

 5     village?

 6        A.   In Kosovo and in my home village, I still have some property, but

 7     the house that I used to have there, after I first came were first of all

 8     destroyed and later on burnt down, so no Serbian or Roma house remained

 9     there.  The church was also mined and the graveyard was desecrated.  My

10     house in Grmovo there was an attempt by some Albanian neighbours to

11     prevent the burning of my house.  However, they were unable to do that,

12     and they could not resist armed people who came there, so I later on

13     received some pictures of my house that were sent to me by a friend of

14     mine, an Albanian, immediately after it was pulled down.  So I still have

15     some property in Kosovo.  I have some land that I inherited, but I still

16     cannot do anything with that land as its rightful owner due to the

17     problems in Kosovo.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the document

20     D006-4467.

21        Q.   Mr. Jokanovic, could you please tell me what is it that you can

22     see on these three pictures that are on the screen right now?

23        A.   Well, the first photo is a small house in a village built in a

24     typical style of that village and this is what it used look like, and the

25     remaining pictures are what you could see after KFOR came to Kosovo.  So

Page 13190

 1     I remained without my home house, without my place of birth, which

 2     obviously has spiritual repercussions for any person.

 3        Q.   Another thing, what is the ethnic composition of the population

 4     of your village of Grmovo right now?

 5        A.   Unfortunately in my village of Grmovo there isn't anybody of

 6     either Serbian, Roma, or any other nationality there nowadays.  The

 7     houses that were destroyed are still destroyed.  As you can see on these

 8     pictures, and they haven't been repaired, and I would like my house to be

 9     repaired that I hope that the last years of my life I will be able to

10     spend there again.

11             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jokanovic, for

12     your testimony.  Your Honours, with this I have completed my questions.

13     Could we just please tender these pictures into evidence?

14             JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00909.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.  Mr. Stamp is

17     is getting organised.  When you are ready, Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours, and good afternoon.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jokanovic.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Can you recall saying at any time that the 1974 constitution of

23     the SFRY constituted a grave injustice to the Serbian people?

24        A.   Yes, I can recall the statements of that time.  Many people were

25     saying that in Serbia and in Yugoslavia.  There were a number of

Page 13191

 1     documents which pointed to this fact.  I spoke about a Blue Book when I

 2     was asked by the counsel.  I also mentioned other discussions, and the

 3     conclusions of the highest bodies of the Yugoslav League of Communists

 4     also talked about an inadequate position of Serbia in comparison to other

 5     republics.

 6             What I didn't say was that some of the university teachers and

 7     intellectuals were politically persecuted, and Professor Djuric was

 8     imprisoned for one year because he resisted that constitution which put

 9     Serbia into an unequal position.  So I also recall myself saying similar

10     things.

11        Q.   It was your view, was it not, that it gave Kosovo too much

12     autonomy and it left the Serbs living in Kosovo vulnerable to

13     discrimination by a government of Kosovo that was dominated by Albanians?

14        A.   As a public personality, as a politician, I gave a number of

15     statements and I gave certainly statements to that effect.  And they were

16     truthful.  And the position of Kosovo pursuant to the 1974 constitution

17     nearly put Kosovo at the same level as republics, and Serbia was divided

18     in three parts.  So this was that unfavourable position which furthermore

19     influenced the position of Serbs and Montenegrins who then started to

20     move out from Kosovo.  So maybe I didn't use those same words, but I made

21     statements to the same effect.

22        Q.   And you were shown a document.

23             MR. STAMP:  Could we bring it up again, it's D905.

24        Q.   It's a conclusion of the SFRY Assembly on the 3rd of March, 1989.

25     This was a conclusion, is that it?  Yes.  Now, in accordance with these

Page 13192

 1     conclusions, did the federal authority, that is the SFRY authorities,

 2     assume responsibility for police security within Kosovo as a part of

 3     special measures to be implemented for Kosovo?

 4        A.   All the different bodies in the Federation at the level of the

 5     republic and at the level of the province, so in line with these

 6     conclusions they are different tasks for the organs of the republic and

 7     organs of the province.  They are all stipulated clearly item by item,

 8     obviously we can read them all out, and particular items are very

 9     significant in view of the minor strike that we had prior to this.  So

10     the federal Assembly stated that it was inadmissible for the functioners

11     to be replaced or dismissed away from the institutions of the system.

12     Also it calls for criminal responsibility of persons who committed such

13     acts and so on and so on.  In line with these conclusions, the federal

14     executive committee also passed a number of conclusions whereby they

15     wanted to put these conclusions into practice, and prior to these

16     conclusions, there was a decision of the Presidency of the Socialist

17     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to introduce special measures.

18        Q.   Right.  And among the special measures introduced was that the

19     SFRY authorities would assume responsibility for police security within

20     Kosovo.  Do you recall that?

21        A.   If possible, if you could assist me with this.  I would like to

22     know which particular item of the conclusions you are pointing to.


24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I can only tell you that this is

25     number 5 in your binder and maybe Mr. Stamp can help you with this.

Page 13193

 1             MR. STAMP:

 2        Q.   I'm not pointing you to a particular provision in those

 3     conclusions.  I'm asking, I'm suggesting that the conclusions taken as a

 4     whole resulted in the federal SFRY authorities assuming control of the

 5     security situation in Kosovo.  Is that your memory?

 6        A.   No, I can't recall that they didn't fully assume the authority

 7     for the security in the territory of Kosovo because in the territory of

 8     Kosovo there were the relevant bodies there.  There was the Executive

 9     Council and also there were police units there, so there were also

10     security organs there, so they carried out their responsibilities

11     pursuant to the constitution and the law.  And those also listed in the

12     items of these conclusions.  And you could not act outside of what was

13     stipulated in these conclusions.

14        Q.   Did the special circumstances and special measures discussed in

15     those conclusions, were these eventually set out in decisions of the

16     Serbian authorities?  Or perhaps I could show you the decisions.

17             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P71 quickly.

18        Q.   This is the 26th of June 1990.  Do you recall this decision?

19        A.   This was a decision, I can't read this very clearly, decision on

20     special circumstances in the territory of the autonomous province of

21     Kosovo.  Yes, this decision was probably made in line with the previous

22     conclusions, and indeed Zoran Sokolovic was president of the Assembly at

23     the time and the presidents of the chambers listed down here were indeed

24     presidents of the chambers at the time.  And indeed we did have special

25     circumstances at the time, which was the result of the decision made by

Page 13194

 1     the Presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 2             MR. STAMP:  And if we could look at P496.  We have to go to page

 3     2 for the translation.  That's page 2 of the document on the right.

 4     Thank you.

 5        Q.   Can you just tell us firstly from your copy what is the date of

 6     this law?

 7        A.   I can't see the date.  It was in June.  I believe it might have

 8     been 30th.  I think it was June the 30th.  No, no, it's not the 26th or

 9     the 28th.  I'm not sure.  The 26th it seems.  June 1990.

10        Q.   Now, do you recall the previous decision, and this law had the

11     effect of enabling the SFRY authorities to take control of the security

12     responsibilities in Kosovo.

13        A.   This law is related to the previous decision by which it was

14     established that special circumstances were in place.  Based on that

15     Assembly decision, this law was promulgated on how the authorities were

16     to act under such circumstances.  However, this is a republican law

17     speaking of the republican organs, bodies in Serbia.  It is based on

18     these conclusions and special circumstance that the provincial organs

19     also pronounced their own measures arising from the conclusions of the

20     federal Assembly during the period of time when they were operational.

21     The conclusions were dated the 3rd of March, 1989.

22        Q.   Right.  And I just show you these documents hoping that you may

23     remember, if you do, that part of a special measures involved the

24     take-over of the security apparatus in Kosovo by the SFRY authorities and

25     the Serbian authorities.

Page 13195

 1        A.   One can speak of the bodies of the Federation and Serbia as

 2     taking over responsibility for the situation in Kosovo after mid-1990

 3     when the process of disintegration of Yugoslavia began and when the

 4     separatist movement in Kosovo began changing into a national movement.

 5     There was an attempt made to paralyse the entire system including

 6     education, health care, economy as a whole, by people leaving their jobs,

 7     deserting properties and because of the worsening inter-ethnic relations,

 8     which was the reason for the introduction of special interim measures

 9     which came about at a later point.

10        Q.   Yes, and when you speak just now of bodies of the Federation of

11     Serbia taking over the responsibility for the situation in Kosovo after

12     mid-1990, the responsibilities included the responsibilities for the

13     security organs in Kosovo.  Is that so?

14        A.   The security organs in Kosovo pursuant to these conclusions had

15     their own remit and the Executive Council pronounced a number of measures

16     based on the conclusions of the 3rd of March.  That responsibility

17     existed for the provincial bodies until the period when they ceased to

18     exist or function when the Assembly was dissolved as well as a number of

19     other bodies.

20        Q.   Very well.  If I could just take you back to some aspects of your

21     evidence earlier.  You were giving us or telling us the circumstances in

22     which the Kosovo parliament or Assembly was dissolved.  Do you recall

23     that on the 2nd of July, 1990, members of the Kosovo Assembly were

24     prevented from entering the Assembly building?

25        A.   The Assembly ceased its work before that.  I think Mr. Bozovic

Page 13196

 1     pronounced that.  And the continuation of the Assembly work was expected.

 2     I presume this was in that interim period when the delegates could not

 3     sit without the speaker.  That is why we had the occasion when the

 4     declaration was read out in front of the Assembly building.

 5        Q.   But the declaration --

 6             MR. STAMP:  Okay.  Let's look at 65 ter 00904.

 7        Q.   Was the declaration read out before, two days before the Kosovo

 8     Albanian parliament or Assembly was dissolved?  This is the

 9     constitutional declaration of Kosovo as an independent unit of the

10     Yugoslav Federation of the 3rd of July, 1990.  Can you read the document

11     on your screen?

12        A.   Yes, I can read it.  Could we please zoom in though.  Could you

13     please put your question now but precisely.  What is your question about

14     this declaration?

15        Q.   If we zoom out to the top where we could see the date.  Firstly,

16     was the declaration of independence that was read out, was that on or

17     about the 3rd of July, 1990?

18        A.   It's been a lot of time but it is likely that it was read out

19     then.  As for what was published in the "Official Gazette" and concerning

20     what the presiding of the session is reported as having said, this was an

21     illegal act.  The printing of this issue was an illegal act without the

22     knowledge of the federal organs.  The Assembly still had its president,

23     deputy president, and Executive Council.  This declaration was read out

24     in front of the building signed by the president or the speaker and

25     signed by the delegates in attendance which is highly unusual.  This does

Page 13197

 1     not have the characteristics of an official state document.  This was

 2     merely a manifestation of that movement which wanted to grow to become a

 3     national movement in order to create all the necessary preconditions

 4     which would eventually result in their right to cessation coming about.

 5        Q.   Yes.  And it was read out on the steps of parliament because they

 6     were locked out of parliament?

 7        A.   The Assembly is presided over by the speaker.  If there's only

 8     one Chamber, then there's one speaker only.  When the Assembly is not in

 9     session, the delegates are not in the building.  As far as I know, the

10     speaker would not have allowed them to enter and read out a declaration

11     such as this one which is is unconstitutional declaring a state.

12        Q.   Very well.  And thereafter the Serbian Assembly formally

13     suspended the Kosovo Assembly?

14             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at that.  P1497 [Realtime transcript

15     read in error "497"].  Could we tender the declaration which is before

16     the Court.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01583.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  I think the exhibit number should be 01583.

20             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.  Thank you very

21     much.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that

24     the number of this exhibit was entered incorrectly.  It should have been

25     1497 as previously stated by the Prosecution, whereas here I see 49.  I

Page 13198

 1     would kindly ask Mr. Stamp to tell us what the correct number is.

 2             MR. STAMP:  P1497.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Can you make out this?  This is a law dissolving the Kosovo

 5     Assembly.

 6        A.   This was the 5th of July.  Yes, the law on the dissolving of the

 7     Assembly.  I think I've already provided a number of answers to some of

 8     the previous questions put by counsel concerning the date.

 9        Q.   Yes, you have.  Just one question on this, do you you recall now

10     that the sequence of events was that Kosovo Albanian Assembly men or

11     Assembly members were locked out of the Assembly, then they read their

12     declaration of independence, which you say is illegal, we accept that's

13     your view of it, and then the Serbian Assembly officially dissolved the

14     Kosovo Assembly?  Is that the sequence of how things occur?

15        A.   Regarding the sequence and the dates in question, this jogs my

16     memory.  You are correct.  First there were problems in the Kosovo

17     Assembly and the Assembly could no longer resume its work normally

18     because there had been attempts to read out the declaration inside the

19     building during the session, but the other delegates would not have it.

20     There was some discussion and arguments among the delegates, and the

21     speaker called the session off.  That's why the group of delegates in

22     favour, probably on the next day, read it out at the entrance of the

23     Kosovo Assembly building.  What follows is Bozovic and the group of

24     delegates going to Belgrade, then they returned, a conclusion was made

25     that the Assembly could no longer sit, and it was dissolved.  The

Page 13199

 1     Republic of Serbia, as the state of which Kosovo was a part of, tried to

 2     defend its territorial integrity in sovereignty by virture of these

 3     measures and would not have parts of its territory carved out illegally.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Just could you assist us with the translation of

 5     Article 2 of this law on the termination by reading it out fully for us.

 6     Just read it slowly so we could get a translation for the record.

 7        A.   I hope you can hear me well.  Article 2:

 8             "The rights and duties of the Assembly of the SAP Kosovo are

 9     being taken over by the Assembly of the SR Serbia and the Executive

10     Council of the Assembly of the SAP Kosovo.  The Executive Council of the

11     Assembly of the SR Serbia until such time that a new Assembly of the SAP

12     Kosovo and Executive Council are formed."

13             This is Article 2 adopted by the Serbian Assembly in June.

14     Article 3 --

15        Q.   No, no, that's fine.

16             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:  July 1990.

17             MR. STAMP:

18        Q.   You mentioned also that this declaration of independence was

19     declared invalid.

20             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at another document.  01870 is the 65

21     ter number.  Could we go to page 2 of the English.  I believe, Your

22     Honours, we should remove page 1 from the record.  That relates to the

23     proceeding.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you moving that that should occur?

25             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  Well, it's not yet in evidence,

Page 13200

 1     but in due course I think the proper thing would be to remove the first

 2     page.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, yes.

 4             MR. STAMP:  And if we could --

 5        Q.   This is a decision on the constitutional declaration of the

 6     independence of Kosovo.  If you look at item 1 we'll see what the

 7     constitutional court of Serbia was concerned with.  And if we could move

 8     on to the decision on page 4.  4 in English and it's the last page in the

 9     B/C/S.

10        Q.   The decision was to quash the declaration.  Yes, is that the

11     decision that you spoke of earlier?

12        A.   This is the decision of the constitutional court of Yugoslavia,

13     not of Serbia as you have said.

14        Q.   I'm sorry.

15        A.   Because this decision was put on the agenda by the constitutional

16     court of Yugoslavia on its own initiative, and they declared that it was

17     unconstitutional.  This declaration was unconstitutional because the

18     right to secession and self-determination was given only to republics and

19     nations, not to provinces and nationalities.  So basically the court

20     confirmed what I said here and thereby the decision of the constitutional

21     court declared this other declaration to be unconstitutional.

22             When one reads it, one can see that in its form and in its

23     content, it is not a legally valid document.  It was a decision to voice

24     their desires and goals.  That's what that document was, it wasn't

25     something based on the constitution.

Page 13201

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Everything is fine.  The page in

 3     English is the correct one, but the page in Serbian does not correspond

 4     to the English one.  But now give than the witness has said what he has

 5     said, the document itself doesn't matter.  We should be showing the left

 6     side of the document, not the right side.  It's good now.  Could you now

 7     scroll up.  This is something else.  This is something concerning the

 8     Criminal Code.  Yes, this is what we want to see.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President of the constitutional

10     court Milovan Buzadzic, yes, he was the president of the constitutional

11     court of Yugoslavia.

12             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could this document also be

13     receive in evidence without this first page.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Without the first page.  It will be received.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01584.

16             MR. STAMP:

17        Q.   If we could turn now, Mr. Jokanovic, to discuss briefly those

18     amendments of the March 1989.  I think it was the 29th of March, 1989.

19     Prior those amendments, Kosovo Assembly had the power to veto

20     constitutional change that the Serbian Assembly might propose.  Is that

21     your understanding of the situation?

22        A.   Yes.  I understand.  In that period of time, the Republic of

23     Serbia did not have one of the basic constitutional responsibilities

24     which was to create constitutions because the Assembly of Kosovo could

25     have vetoed any amendment of the constitution of Serbia.

Page 13202

 1        Q.   And that was one of the main grievances that many people had in

 2     respect to the 1974 constitution, the 1974 SFRY constitution?

 3        A.   This was one of the main complaints, but not the only one by no

 4     means.  There were others.  Other complaints concerning the defence

 5     system, state security, and typical functions of a state which any state

 6     in the world needs to have.  The Republic of Serbia was a state yet it

 7     did not have some of those standard state functions.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P6.  Document P6.  The constitution

 9     of the Republic of Serbia.

10        Q.   Now, is it true, Mr. Jokanovic, that as a result of this

11     amendment, an amendment that took away the right of the Kosovo Albanian

12     Assembly to veto constitutional changes or changes with Serbian

13     constitution, this constitutional amendment or this constitution was

14     passed in September 1990?

15        A.   On the 23rd of March, 1999 is when the constitutional amendments

16     were adopted, and when it comes to amending the constitution, it involves

17     a very complicated procedure.  As for the constitution in 1990, it was a

18     completely new constitution which introduced a multi-party system, which

19     was a new democratic system that represented a discontinuation from the

20     old communist regime.  So they introduced a multi-party system and they

21     also adopted various solutions in accordance with European standards and

22     solutions that exist in some other European constitutions.  This

23     constitution is -- something is a cross between the French and the German

24     constitution.

25        Q.   Yes.  When this new constitution of 1990 was promulgated, could

Page 13203

 1     the Kosovo Albanian Assembly veto it?

 2        A.   No, the Kosovo Assembly nor the Vojvodina Assembly could have

 3     vetoed it.

 4        Q.   They had lost that power as a result of the amendments in 1989?

 5     Is that so?

 6        A.   They lost the right to veto.  The Republic of Serbia once again

 7     could create its own constitution and a new complex procedure was

 8     established aimed at trying to find a harmonised solution, and if that

 9     did not succeed within a period of six months, then they could schedule a

10     referendum, so they chose a solution whereby a referendum would replace a

11     stalemate.

12        Q.   Did they -- my next question, Mr. Jokanovic, is did the 1990

13     constitution further restrict the limited autonomy that was being

14     exercised by the -- exercised by the Kosovo Albanians, but I see it's

15     time for the break, so I will ask that question again when we resume.

16     Your Honours, I wonder if it's a convenient time.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, we'll have the first break now and

18     resume at a quarter past 4.00.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.  You looked as though you were

24     coming to your feet, I thought you had another point.  Mr. Stamp,

25     Mr. Djurdjic was wanting to upstage you once again.

Page 13204

 1             MR. STAMP:  I realise it couldn't be a matter of you mistaking me

 2     for him, must have been otherwise.  Thank you very much, Your Honours,

 3     I'll proceed.

 4        Q.   Mr. Jokanovic, this is the constitution of Serbia, the Republic

 5     of Serbia of September 1990.  Just to orient ourselves, could we look at

 6     Article 73, which is the general provisions with regard to the powers of

 7     the Serbian National Assembly.  It will come up on the screen.  I'm not

 8     sure if there's one in your binder.

 9             Mr. Jokanovic, it's being shown on the screen, on the screen in

10     front of you.  Article 73.

11        A.   Yes.  73.

12        Q.   The general overarching powers of the national Assembly are set

13     out there.  You recall particularly articles 1 and 2 -- items 1 and 2 of

14     that article?  It had the power to decide on the constitution and to

15     adopt laws and other regulations and general enactments.

16             MR. STAMP:  And if we could move to Article 109 in respect to the

17     powers of the Kosovo and Metohija autonomous province.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can this be enlarged, please.

19             MR. STAMP:

20        Q.   Can you make it out now.

21        A.   If you could please zoom in, I have a hard time seeing.  These

22     are the powers of the autonomous province which is to say that this

23     constitution maintains the old system, mainly where Serbia has two

24     province, Kosovo and Vojvodina.  In Article 109 establishes the powers of

25     autonomous provinces.

Page 13205

 1        Q.   If you look at item 4.

 2        A.   This item speaks of implementation of laws, other regulations,

 3     and general enactments of the Republic of Serbia, whose implementation

 4     has been entrusted to the organs of autonomous province and it also

 5     adopts regulations on implementation of this legislation whenever

 6     specified so by law, which means that the law needs to be checked to see

 7     when it is that the organs are to implement laws in the territory of the

 8     entire republic and the province.  This means that based on this article,

 9     they were to adopt a law specifying when the situations in which republic

10     organs are to implement the laws in the territory of the entire republic

11     including the province.

12        Q.   And if you look at Article 110.  It's right there in the English.

13        A.   As I have said in my examination-in-chief, the status of the

14     province changed over time so that from 1945 until 1963, the highest

15     legal act was the statute and then they had the constitutional law and

16     then the constitution.  In 1974 they were granted the constitution.

17             This new constitution introducing multi-party system, this new

18     democratic constitution envisages once again that the highest enactment

19     within the province is once again the statute.

20        Q.   And in all of these provisions, the statute-making powers of the

21     Kosovo Albanian is made subject to the authority of the Assembly of the

22     Republic of Serbia?

23        A.   Which article do you have in mind?

24        Q.   You see Article 10 there --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  You mean 110?

Page 13206

 1             MR. STAMP:  110, thank you very much, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  And do you mean the second paragraph?

 3             MR. STAMP:

 4        Q.   And the second paragraph thereof, which is at the top of the

 5     page.

 6        A.   The highest legal enactment is this statute adopted by the

 7     autonomous province and its Assembly based on the prior approval of the

 8     national Assembly, they are referring to the National Assembly of Serbia,

 9     which is to say that the National Assembly of Serbia needs to give its

10     consent.

11        Q.   Is it correct that the effect of these provisions that I've just

12     shown you was to restrict or limit the authority of the Kosovo Assembly

13     which it had previously processed before the amendment of 1989?

14        A.   One could say that the entire system was changed.  Prior to this

15     we had a socialist system based on self-management and delegate system,

16     whereas now we had something similar to the system elsewhere in Europe,

17     in other European countries.  So if you look at the constitution from

18     1974 and this constitution, this put provinces in a different position.

19     Pursuant to this constitution, the province had the so-called territorial

20     autonomy.

21        Q.   Indeed, but what I'm asking you is this, isn't the effect of

22     these provisions, the two provisions that I showed you, isn't it one of

23     limiting the authority which is the Kosovo Assembly previously possessed?

24        A.   In this entirely new system and in these entirely new

25     circumstances, in this new multi-party political system, if we were to

Page 13207

 1     compare this to the previous socialist system, then, yes, the province

 2     now had an entirely different status, and it was a restricted status.

 3             MR. STAMP:  And if we go to Articles 125, and I'm just interested

 4     in item 1, if we could look quickly at that.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we could please enlarge this.

 6             MR. STAMP:

 7        Q.   Here we can see what was the authority of the constitutional

 8     court of Serbia.  That's Article 125, item 1, "the constitutional court

 9     shall rule on conformity of law then statutes of autonomous provinces,

10     other regulations and general enactments with the constitution."

11             MR. STAMP:  And if we could look at Article 30 [sic] now and then

12     I'll ask the question.  Sorry, 130, Article 130.  Quite correct.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to comment on

14     this?

15             MR. STAMP:

16        Q.   Well, perhaps you could, please, before the question.

17        A.   So here we can see what is the jurisdiction of the constitutional

18     court of Serbia, and this is to establish whether a law, we are talking

19     about the laws of the republic or statute of autonomous provinces, were

20     in line with the constitution of the Republic of Serbia, which means that

21     the statute of an autonomous province, if it was contrary to the Serbian

22     constitution and if this was thus established by the constitutional

23     court, then probably the constitutional court would determine that the

24     particular provision of this statute was unlawful or unconstitutional.

25        Q.   Now, prior to this constitution being promulgated in 1990, did

Page 13208

 1     the constitutional court of Serbia have the authority to decide upon the

 2     laws, the constitutional -- well, the laws of the autonomous provinces,

 3     in particular Kosovo and Metohija?

 4        A.   Once again, I will repeat that this was an entirely new social

 5     and political system, and it is rather difficult to compare this new

 6     multi-party system with the system as we had it after 1974.  But if we

 7     were to compare it, then this could not be done pursuant to the 1974

 8     constitution because at that time provinces had their own constitutional

 9     courts, so they had nearly all the authorities of the republics.

10        Q.   And, as a matter of fact, by December 1990 the Serbian Assembly

11     effectively abolished the Kosovo constitutional court?

12             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to P20.

13        Q.   Do you recall that, Mr. Jokanovic?  That the Serbian Assembly

14     after passing this constitution giving them the power to adjudicate over

15     the constitutional, over the laws of Kosovo and Metohija, they eventually

16     abolished the constitutional court of Kosovo and Metohija?

17        A.   Now, in this new constitutional and political system of Serbia,

18     there could not have been a constitutional court of Kosovo and Metohija

19     because the constitutional court is established at the level of a state,

20     and now this province, Kosovo and Metohija, had a status of a territorial

21     autonomy, and as such it could not have a constitutional court.  Whereas

22     in line with the 1974 constitution, it did have a constitutional court.

23        Q.   Right.  And you recall that this decree before you, this is a

24     decision relieving of duty the Judges of the Kosovo constitutional court,

25     that was in December 1990?

Page 13209

 1        A.   Well, given the provision that I just commented on a short while

 2     ago, this decision was made also to relieve of duty the judges of the

 3     constitutional court which existed according to the previous system and

 4     which now did not exist anymore, so this was a decision on relieving the

 5     Judges of the constitutional court of Kosovo of their duties.

 6        Q.   Very well.  You testified earlier, Mr. Jokanovic, that when there

 7     was discussions on the proposed constitutional amendments in 1989, there

 8     was a significant amount of resistance by the Kosovo Albanians to these

 9     proposals.  There were political protests, demonstrations, strikes.

10     Would I be correct in saying that at that time in 1989, these proposed

11     amendments were not popular with the Kosovo Albanian population in

12     general?

13        A.   In 1989, the situation was somewhat different because in 1989

14     there was still a wish to keep Yugoslavia together and to keep this

15     province within the Republic of Serbia and Yugoslavia.  The system as it

16     was at the time was such that a majority of Albanians was also in favour

17     of it and therefore they voted for the amendments of the constitution.

18     But after Yugoslavia was disintegrated --

19        Q.   Yes, yes.  I'm not asking you about a majority of the Albanians

20     in the Assembly just yet.  I'm asking you about the Albanian population

21     in general.  Wouldn't you agree with me that these strikes and these

22     protests and demonstrations indicated that these proposed amendments were

23     not popular with the general Albanian population in Kosovo?

24        A.   Well, it is difficult to say that nobody made any surveys, any

25     research into the popularity or the percentage of the population that was

Page 13210

 1     in favour or against the proposals.  There were many speculations, many

 2     rumours around and attempts to pass these proposals.  I can't agree that

 3     the majority of the Albanian population was against the proposal.

 4     However, at the time the separatist movement was already there and in

 5     time it turned into a much wider, much more serious nationalistic

 6     movement, and in 1989, we still believed that the Yugoslav League of

 7     Communists was going to stay, and at that time there was 100.000 members

 8     of the League of Communists in Kosovo who supported the system as we

 9     headed at the time and a great number of Albanians as well as Roma and

10     other nationalities lived well under such system.  However, the

11     circumstances were changing, and this is why the wish to have a separate

12     state grew.

13        Q.   You read part of the testimony of Mr.  Ibrahim Rugova where he

14     said that the delegates or the representatives of the Kosovo Albanian

15     parliament or Assembly were put under great pressure to pass the

16     amendments in March 1989, and I think you will agree with me that these

17     amendments to some degree or to a considerable degree reduced some of the

18     powers which that Assembly had before.  Can you tell us why in those

19     circumstances they would agree to reducing the authority that they had

20     before?

21        A.   The constitutional amendments simply included changes to the

22     provisions stipulating some of the state functions, whereas the position

23     of the province within the Federation within Yugoslavia remained the

24     same, so they kept their status and they kept their authority to regulate

25     all the issues and implement all the legislation at the level of the

Page 13211

 1     province.  So they kept a high level of autonomy, and at the same time

 2     they remained a constitutional element within Yugoslavia.  This solution

 3     was accepted by a large number of Albanians as well because all the 22

 4     Municipal Assemblies approved the amendments, and in the Municipal

 5     Assemblies obviously there were delegates from particular Assemblies, all

 6     the political organisations also approved them, and this was the

 7     socialist Alliance, trade unions and so on and so and.  So the delegate

 8     system was such that the delegates conveyed the opinions of their

 9     constituents and they voted in line with the decisions passed by their

10     constituents in their Assemblies.  They were bound by such decisions.

11     The same was done by the League of Communists and members of the League

12     of Communists had to act in a given way.  At that time the League of

13     Communists was still stable and powerful, there was the provincial

14     committee, and as he told you at that time in Kosovo there were 100.000

15     members of the league of communists and the largest number of the

16     Assembly delegates were also members of the League of Communists.  So

17     based on the principle of democratic centralism, they were bound by the

18     decision of the central committee of the League of Communists and the

19     Executive Council of Kosovo, so as members of the communist league they

20     were obliged to vote in the way in with which they did.  We describe this

21     system as a democratic centralism.  Now, we could discuss how a system

22     could be both democratic and centralised at the same way, at the same

23     time.

24        Q.   You agree with what Mr. Rugova said that within the context that

25     these Assembly members were put in, they were put under great pressure to

Page 13212

 1     vote as they did, weren't they?

 2        A.   I can't say that they were pressured.  I obviously understand

 3     while Mr. Rugova said what he did because he believed that Kosovo what

 4     supposed to secede and to become an independent state.  This was his

 5     position as a member of the democratic Alliance of Kosovo.  And obviously

 6     his intention was to make sure that what was happening in Slovenia and

 7     Croatia happened in Kosovo as well, but this was constitutionally

 8     impossible, and this is why he tried to use different illegal actions to

 9     raise Kosovo to the level of a republic, and we saw that illegal document

10     that was signed by delegates, so this was simply an attempt to create

11     preconditions for what was to follow.  So they simply copied the

12     situations in Slovenia and Croatia with referendums and everything else.

13        Q.   Let's move on from there.

14             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at 06096 quickly.  65 ter 06096.

15        Q.   This is a transcript of a BBC report of the 6th of February,

16     1991.  And it says that:

17             "Vukasin Jokanovic, vice president of the Serbian Assembly on the

18     4th of February, during talks with a group of primary school teachers

19     from Pec stressed that due to the situation and dedication system in the

20     province, many new measures would be introduced shortly in addition to

21     the reduction in the amount of teaching Albanian.  School headmasters

22     will be given wider powers to enable them to carry out their duties more

23     freely."

24             The question is do you recall saying this?

25        A.   Unfortunately I cannot recall this statement, that this statement

Page 13213

 1     is rather different from my entire political engagement and a number of

 2     other statements I gave.  So I am not sure who conveyed this statement

 3     and how they did it, so I believe this is an example of propaganda.

 4     Because my name was -- carried certain weight, and at that time if these

 5     words were put into my mouth, this would imply that I supported the

 6     trends which went into direction of establishing Kosovo as a state and

 7     jeopardising Albanian population there, and I never ever with any

 8     statements of mine questioned the quality of Albanian population.  And

 9     you can find thousands of my statements to that effect.  My son searched

10     the net and he found three or four hundred of my statements to this

11     effect.  So I can't recall this statement, and I believe it is false.  I

12     believe it was something that was put into my mouth, apparently there was

13     an interview and so on.

14        Q.   I have your answer, I have your answer, Mr. Jokanovic.  We just

15     saw it and thought we'd give you an opportunity to comment on it.

16             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours, I have nothing

17     further for the witness.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

19             Mr. Djurdjic.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

22        Q.   Mr. Jokanovic, first of all, could we have P1469.  There's no

23     need for you to look through the binder.  Please look at the screen.

24        A.   Thank you, counsel.

25        Q.   What we are about to see on the screen is the law on the work of

Page 13214

 1     republican organs under special circumstances together with the decree on

 2     the promulgation of such measures.  It is P1469.  What we have here.  So

 3     P.  I believe Mr. Stamp used it just a moment ago.  This is not the

 4     document, Witness.

 5        A.   Well, I had to see it for myself.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] 1496.  Apologies.  Could we now

 7     see ...

 8        Q.   This was published in the "Official Gazette" on the 26th of June,

 9     1990.  In Article 1 before the decree, what was the basis for the

10     promulgation of this?

11        A.   Article 1?

12        Q.   No, no, no.  There is a decree preceding this.

13        A.   I don't see it.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to the top of the

15     page.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pursuant to Amendment 49, item 7.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Is it really 49?  Or 39 perhaps?

19        A.   39.  I apologise.

20        Q.   What does it say then?

21        A.   Pursuant to Amendment 39, item 7 of the constitution of the

22     Socialist Republic of Serbia, this decree shall be put into force on the

23     promulgation of the law on the work of republican organs under special

24     circumstances by the various bodies of the Republic of Serbia.

25        Q.   Where does it say that, Mr. Jokanovic?

Page 13215

 1        A.   Where does it say?

 2        Q.   We'll go back to it, but please look at Article 2 of the law, so

 3     Article 2, item 1?

 4        A.   Article 2, item 1 states when special circumstances come into

 5     effect.  In item 1 it says, Activities directed at overthrowing the

 6     constitutional order and the territorial integrity.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8        A.   Item 2?

 9        Q.   Yes, we have items 2, 3, and 4 but let's not waste time.  Please

10     look at para 2 of Article 2, what does it stipulate?

11        A.   That the Assembly of the Republic of Serbia shall establish upon

12     the proposal of the Executive Council of the Assembly of the Federal

13     Republic of Serbia.  Could you please show the bottom of the page in the

14     Serbian.

15        Q.   Actually, the right side of the page at the top.  Centre it

16     please.  Yes, thank you.

17        A.   That upon the proposal of the Executive Council of the Assembly

18     of the Republic of Serbia, that special circumstances in a part of the

19     republic have arisen or ceased.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Next could we please have Exhibit

22     P71.

23        Q.   Mr. Jokanovic, this is a decision establishing that special

24     circumstances have arisen in the territory of the Socialist Autonomous

25     Province of Kosovo.  It came into effect on the 26th of June, 1999.  It

Page 13216

 1     was published on that day the "Official Gazette" of Serbia.  There is a

 2     figure there of 519, and what does it say just below that?  What was the

 3     reason or the basis on which this decision was made?

 4        A.   Pursuant to Article 2 of the law on the work of republican organs

 5     in special circumstances and Article 120 of the rules, the Assembly of

 6     the Socialist Republic of Serbia at the session of the council of

 7     associated labour on the 26th of June issued the decision establishing

 8     that special circumstances have arisen in the territory of the socialist

 9     autonomous province of Kosovo, meaning that precisely the circumstances I

10     referred to before had arisen.

11        Q.   What was this decision based on?

12        A.   Article 2 of the law on the work of republican organs in special

13     circumstances, in brackets, the "Official Gazette" of the Republic of

14     Serbia issued 30/90.

15        Q.   Is this the law we just saw?

16        A.   Yes, it is.  Certainly the decision was a result of that law.  It

17     could not stand on its own.

18        Q.   Thank you.  When was the decision of the SFRY Presidency on the

19     introduction of special measures in Kosovo and Metohija made?

20        A.   In early March 1989.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Exhibit

23     P1583.

24        Q.   This is the so-called constitutional declaration published in the

25     "Official Gazette" of the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo in the

Page 13217

 1     3rd of July, 1990.  First of all, Mr. Jokanovic, we see here a list of

 2     those who signed allegedly the list, the declaration.  Did you ever see

 3     the original list and the signatures of any of the people mentioned here?

 4        A.   I never did.  It would be highly unusual to have people sign a

 5     certain piece of legislation, or enactment.  Throughout my career I have

 6     never seen such an instance of people's names being published in the

 7     "Official Gazette" that way.  As to whether they indeed signed it is a

 8     matter of further research or investigation, if I may say so.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever hear of a person presiding over a

10     session?

11        A.   Only in cases when a new Assembly is being established and then

12     there is a presiding officer standing in for the speaker, but his sole

13     authority is to declare that there will be a vote for the election of

14     Assembly officials.  Such a presiding officer neither according to the

15     rules nor according to the constitution does not exist during the process

16     of Assembly establishment.  It is usually the most senior member who can

17     preside during such a session.

18             May I add something?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Looking at the list followed by the abbreviations which stands

21     for my own signature, I see a number of people who participated in or

22     contributed to the session of the 23rd of March 1989, and there they

23     voiced their support for the amendments.  Whereas here, they seem to be

24     signing a declaration proclaiming Kosovo an independent state, and this

25     act even refers to the constitution of the SFRY calling the SFRY a

Page 13218

 1     confederation.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 2 now.

 3     Please zoom in on the middle of the page.  Yes, please go down a bit

 4     where it says "contents".

 5        Q.   It says here, Contents, probably of this issue of the "Official

 6     Gazette".  Can you comment on that?

 7        A.   This "Official Gazette" was published illegally.  Seldom is an

 8     "Official Gazette" published with a single item.  In the contents, we see

 9     that there is a reference made of Yugoslavia as a confederation and a

10     federation.  As the declaration says, this is what they refer to

11     Yugoslavia, but I don't know where they invoke or on the basis of what

12     they invoke this right to declare Yugoslavia a confederation, because at

13     that time it was still an SFRY, a federation.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to P1497 next.

16        Q.   This is the law on the secession of work of the Assembly of the

17     Autonomous Province in Kosovo and the Executive Council of the Assembly

18     of Kosovo published on the 5th of July, 1990.  Could you please comment

19     on Article 1 of the law.

20        A.   I referred to this article before.

21        Q.   Do not read it out loud, just comment.

22        A.   At this moment, the Assembly of Kosovo had not been operational

23     because they tried to undermine the sovereignty and territorial integrity

24     of the country.  It is also stated here that their work was directed

25     against the constitutional system and the Republic of Serbia as a whole.

Page 13219

 1     It also states that the territorial integrity of Serbia is being brought

 2     into question so as to carve out a piece of its territory.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now have

 4     P1584.

 5        Q.   What we have now is the decision to assess the constitutionality

 6     of the constitutional declaration of Kosovo as an independent and equal

 7     unit within the framework of the Federation (confederation) of Yugoslavia

 8     as an entity equal to other units in the Federation (confederation).

 9             This was a decision of which constitutional court?

10        A.   The Yugoslav constitutional court.  Here we see the name of

11     Milovan Buzadzic who was the president of the constitutional court of

12     Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Thank you.  According to item 1, who initiated this procedure to

14     assess the constitutionality of the declaration?

15        A.   The constitutional court itself.  It had the right to do things

16     upon its own initiative or following proposals made by certain bodies.

17        Q.   Thank you, I won't go through the whole decision, but I want to

18     see the penultimate paragraph.  This is it.  Yes.  Can you comment

19     briefly.  What did the constitutional court ascertain?

20        A.   So as not to read the whole thing, the constitutional court

21     concluded that the declaration was contrary to the constitution of

22     Yugoslavia and that the provinces did not have such a right, only the

23     republics did as states.  This also applies to nations alone rather than

24     nationalities.  Nationalities could not make such declarations and

25     proclaiming the province a republic serves to exclude its territory from

Page 13220

 1     the Republic of Serbia.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the next page

 3     in both languages.

 4        Q.   The reasons are stated here as well as what violations of the

 5     constitution of Serbia were made by way of this declaration.  And I would

 6     like to ask you, Mr. Jokanovic, who took part in adopting this decision?

 7     Where were these judges of the constitutional court from?

 8        A.   Milovan Buzadzic, Hervoje Barcic [phoen].  They were all from

 9     other republics, from Croatia, from Bosnia.  Bozidar Bulatovic, by name I

10     would say he was from Montenegro.  Omer Ibrahimagic was a Muslim from

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Branislav Ivanovic was most likely from Serbia.

12     Pjeter Kola was from Kosovo.  I know him, he was an eminent lawyer.

13     Kapraroff [phoen] was probably a Hungarian.  Vejlko Markovic was from

14     Serbia.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, what was the ethnicity of Pjeter

16     Kola?

17        A.   Pjeter Kola was an Albanian from Kosovo and Metohija, and he held

18     various offices in Kosovo and Metohija.  Mostly administrative bodies and

19     also legal positions similar to the positions that I held.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Were these judges from all republics and provinces of

21     Yugoslavia, the Judges who adopted this decision?

22        A.   Yes.  That's how the constitutional court was organised in its

23     composition.  They had judges from all republics and provinces within

24     Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You said that in the constitution of 1990 a new

Page 13221

 1     multi-party system was introduced, and I would like to know whether the

 2     Albanian political parties that were established in accordance with this

 3     constitution took part in the political life in Serbia and whether they

 4     also participated in the elections?

 5        A.   The Albanian parties did not take part in those elections.  I

 6     know that one political party was registered and there were also others,

 7     and none of them participated because the participation in those

 8     elections would be contrary to their separatist and nationalist platform

 9     and programme which later developed its military side.  Therefore, they

10     boycotted the elections.  However, not all of the Albanians participated

11     in this boycott because some of the Albanians were on the ballots of some

12     of political parties.  On the ballot of the socialist party there were

13     four Albanians, and they were elected to the new republic Assembly as

14     delegates.  I remember the names of some of them even.  And they worked

15     and took part in the work of the republic Assembly.  They took part in

16     adopting all of these enactments that we have mentioned here.

17        Q.   This constitution, did it regulate the status of provinces within

18     the Republic of Serbia in the identical way?

19        A.   While following this trial on television, I heard many witnesses

20     saying that the province was annulled, voided, which is not true.  That's

21     not what the constitution said.  There was a province called Vojvodina

22     and a province called Kosovo.  Vojvodina had all of its organs, it had

23     its Assembly, its Executive Council, and all of the other organs

24     envisaged in the constitution.  Whereas, Kosovo did not avail it itself

25     of that right.  They had a right to be represented in the Assembly of

Page 13222

 1     Serbia by many delegates.  They chose not to do that.  They didn't also

 2     want to establish a provincial Assembly because they thought that by

 3     doing so they would endanger their main goal, which was to have Kosovo

 4     established as a separate state and to have it secede from Serbia

 5     [Realtime transcript read in error "Kosovo"] and Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  When we spoke about the amendments to the

 7     constitution of Serbia from 1989 --

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Line 15, it should read "to secede

 9     from Serbia and Yugoslavia," not from Kosovo and Yugoslavia.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the transcript

11     now?  Thank you.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   When speaking of the 1989 amendments to the constitution of

14     Serbia, and the right to veto, or rather, the inability to amend the

15     constitution of Serbia without a prior consent of autonomous provinces,

16     tell me, please, whether the Republic of Serbia could give its consent to

17     the amendments of the provincial constitutions?

18        A.   The Republic of Serbia and the Assembly of Serbia could neither

19     consent or affect in any way the adoption of the Kosovo constitution.

20     According to its constitution, Kosovo was fully independent to adopt its

21     own constitution and in that regard Serbia had no powers.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did the constitutional court of Serbia have the power

23     to evaluate the constitutionality of the provisions of the Kosovo

24     constitution to see whether it was in accordance with the federal

25     constitution?

Page 13223

 1        A.   The constitutional court of Yugoslavia could assess, could

 2     evaluate whether certain provisions of the republic or provincial

 3     constitutions were in accordance with the federal constitution.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, by way of these constitutional

 5     amendments which were adopted, or rather, to which they received a

 6     consent, what mechanism was there to amend the constitution of Serbia

 7     without the consent of the provinces?

 8        A.   There was a special amendment envisaging a complex procedure that

 9     would replace the right to veto.  Once the Assembly of Serbia determined

10     the text of the amendment, they would try to obtain a consent from

11     provincial Assemblies.  If they did not manage to obtain that consent

12     then a parity based committee with representatives from Kosovo,

13     Vojvodina, and Serbia would be established, and they would attempt to

14     find a consensus, and then the adoption of that new amendment or that new

15     constitution would be postponed by six months.  If within these six

16     months they failed to reach a consensus for a certain amendment, then the

17     Assembly of Serbia could adopt that amendment after organising a

18     referendum in which all citizens holding a right to vote would

19     participate casting their votes.  So that means that before those

20     amendments would be adopted, there needed to be a referendum, and this is

21     this complex procedure for circumventing the veto that I told you about.

22        Q.   This referendum, did all citizens of the Republic of Serbia with

23     a right to vote could participate in it?

24        A.   Yes, all of the voting citizens of the Republic of Serbia could

25     participate including those living in provinces in Vojvodina and Kosovo,

Page 13224

 1     and naturally those living in Serbia.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, could we now see P8,

 3     please.  Could we now see Amendment 39, which should be page 25.  I meant

 4     to say Amendment 29, I apologise, 29 not 39.  In your binder that's tab 7

 5     and pages 318 at the bottom of the page.

 6        A.   Page 318, Amendment 29.

 7        Q.   Yes, that's right.  Would you please take a look at it.

 8        A.   I've looked at it.

 9        Q.   Could you now give us a brief comment, please, of this amendment,

10     when it comes to the assessment of whether the provincial constitution is

11     in accordance with the constitution of Serbia.

12        A.   If the provincial constitution contradicts the constitution of

13     Serbia, then the constitutional court of Serbia would evaluate that and

14     provide its opinion first to the Assembly of Serbia and then based on

15     that opinion, the Assembly of Serbia, if it should establish that those

16     provisions were in contradiction of the Serbian constitution could not

17     void them immediately, but would inform the provincial Assembly of it

18     giving them a one year dead-line to remove this contradiction.  If the

19     provinces fail to remove the contradiction within that period of time,

20     then those provisions would not be implemented, would not be implemented.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, I've no

22     further questions for witness Jokanovic.  Thank you, I have completed my

23     examination.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

25                           Questioned by the Court:

Page 13225

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask you something for

 2     clarification.  On Friday you spoke about and told us about a visit of a

 3     delegation of a European institution, and it is recorded as parliamentary

 4     delegation of the council, there's a word missing, council of Europe, I

 5     think.  Today you spoke about I received the European parliament

 6     delegation.  These are, I think, two different bodies.  Was it a

 7     delegation of the parliamentary Assembly of the council of Europe or of

 8     the European parliament just for clarification?

 9        A.   I think that it was a delegation of the European parliament.  So

10     it was a parliamentary delegation of the council of Europe, that's how it

11     was.  Parliamentary delegation of the council of Europe.  So a parliament

12     was visiting a parliament of Kosovo.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, and the council of Europe was a body and

14     European institution in which the socialist -- the Federal Republic of

15     Yugoslavia was a member of, the European parliament is only comprising

16     the member states of the European Union, that means that was a

17     parliamentary Assembly of the council of Europe.  That's correct, yes?

18     Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember not being

20     fully familiar with European institutions, I thought it was a

21     parliamentary delegation of the European Union.  I think that's how I

22     remember it, but I could go over my documents to refresh my memory as to

23     its formal name.  It's been 30 years since then.  At any rate, they came

24     from a European institution and they were called a parliamentary

25     delegation.

Page 13226

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Jokanovic, that completes the questions for

 2     you.  The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here in The

 3     Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to give.  You are,

 4     of course, now able to return to your normal activities.  When we rise a

 5     Court Officer will show you out.  Once again, thank you.

 6             We will now adjourn and resume with the next witness at 6.00.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, sir.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Please read aloud the affirmation shown to you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a second, sir.

16             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

17     and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS:  VUKMIR MIRCIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Mr. Popovic:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Mircic.

Page 13227

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Mr. Mircic, before I ask with my questioning.  First of all, I

 3     would kindly ask you since both of us speak the same language, once

 4     you've heard my question could you please wait for a moment so that the

 5     interpreters are allowed to do their job properly?

 6        A.   Mr. Mircic, could you first of all state your name.

 7        A.   My name is Vukmir Mircic.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  When were you born?

 9        A.   I was born on the 17th of September, 1958, in the village of --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't catch the name

11     of the village.  Municipality of Decani.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Could you please repeat the name of village in which you were

14     born?

15        A.   Kodralija.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mircic.  Could you tell me if you were a member of

17     the MUP and if so, since when?

18        A.   Yes, I've been a member of MUP since 1986.  I worked in the

19     public security sector.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Are you still a member of MUP?

21        A.   Well, now I'm -- I have been retired.

22        Q.   When did you retire?

23        A.   I retired in 2006.

24        Q.   All right.  Could you please explain us briefly what were your

25     duties within the Ministry of the Interior during your career?

Page 13228

 1        A.   I was chief of the Decani department of Internal Affairs which

 2     belonged to the secretariat of MUP in Djakovica, and I was posted there

 3     on 1st of January, 1993.

 4        Q.   And prior to the 1st of January, 1993, what were your duties

 5     within the Ministry of the Interior?

 6        A.   I was an inspector at the state security sector.  And later on I

 7     was chief of detachment of the state security sector in Decani.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us, during the course of 1998

 9     and 1999 what was your position within the Ministry of the Interior?

10        A.   I was at that time still chief of the department for Internal

11     Affairs of Decani, which belonged to the SUP of Djakovica.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us what was the territory covered by

13     your department of Internal Affairs?

14        A.   The Decani Department of Internal Affairs started -- let me start

15     from the border with the Republic of Albania, so the border with Albania

16     Montenegro, and then municipality of Pec and municipality of Djakovica.

17     The length of the border with Albania was 22 kilometres, so the length of

18     the border that belonged to the municipality of Decani.

19        Q.   Thank you.  What were your authorities as chief of the Department

20     of Internal Affairs?

21        A.   Well, my authorities were stipulated by all the laws and

22     regulations adopted by the MUP.  So the regulation on internal

23     organisation and as chief I was tasked with monitoring the work of the

24     police that fell under my jurisdiction, so the police station in which I

25     had commander and assistant commanders who were in charge of the police

Page 13229

 1     stations within my Department of Internal Affairs.  And the police

 2     station was also linked to the police department within the Secretariat

 3     of the Internal Affairs in Djakovica.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us who was immediately superior to you in 1998 and

 5     1999?

 6        A.   In 1998 and 1999 my directly superior was the chief of SUP of

 7     Djakovica.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In 1998 and 1999 did you receive all the orders

 9     exclusively from the chief of SUP of Djakovica?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Were you a member of the mixed commission for state border?

12        A.   Yes.  I was appointed in 1996 by the federal SUP of Yugoslavia as

13     a president of the LMK, which was local mixed commission for border, for

14     the border in the sector 4th, which was the border with the Republic of

15     Albania.  And there were several members of this commission, usually five

16     or six members of this commission was myself as president and then

17     experts, some of them were members of the Army of Yugoslavia given that

18     we were discussing the border and border-related issues.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us briefly what was the task of

20     this mixed commission?

21        A.   Yes.  Our task was to consider the incidents that occurred on

22     either side of the border.  If it occurred on the Albanian side, then

23     they will notify us and obviously we considered this.  If there was an

24     incident on our side, we did the same.  So all the border-related

25     incidents, forest fires, illegal crossings, and different other incidents

Page 13230

 1     were considered jointly once a year both on our side and on their side of

 2     the border.  So we had all the documents, we considered these incidents

 3     and passed relevant decisions.  Decisions were whether we would register

 4     an incident, whether we would erase it from the register.  If we couldn't

 5     agree, then the issue would be discussed by the second instance

 6     commission within the federal SUP.

 7        Q.   What was the nature of your co-operation with the Albanian side

 8     with their mixed border commission, and how did you contact them?

 9        A.   Well, we would set a date and time for a meeting.  I would go to

10     the border crossing, usually Qafa Prushit [phoen], which was in the

11     territory of the municipality of Djakovica, and as president of the

12     commission I would go and meet their side there, so we exchanged letters

13     and in this way a meeting was organised.  They would come to our side

14     with certain documents, and we would spend some time together and discuss

15     all these incidents in order to try and establish the real truth

16     concerning the incidents.

17             The same was done on the Albanian side.  So they also had teams

18     which encompassed representatives on the police, the army, and other

19     experts.

20        Q.   What was the nature of your co-operation?

21        A.   Until 1998, I can say that it was correct, it was based on mutual

22     respect, but often the Albanian side came with some really hard

23     positions, so they had an input from an officer or somebody else, and

24     they tried to convince us of that belief.  But we also made quite a

25     number of joint investigations.  In 1996, 1997, even prior to those

Page 13231

 1     years, the border with Albania was -- the border between Albania and

 2     Yugoslavia made it possible for the terrorist groups and armaments to

 3     cross that border.  And this is what happened after the regime in Albania

 4     changed when Salih Berisha came to power, so it was well known fact that

 5     there was anarchy in Albania.  The arms were stolen from barracks and

 6     then they were smuggled to the territory of Kosovo.  So the army tried to

 7     prevent such occurrences on a number of occasions, and they did prevent

 8     them and this is why we had several opportunities to carry out joint

 9     investigations.  But because of rather complex security situation, we

10     couldn't do this because the Albanian side opened fire to us.

11             I warned their president of the commission on several occasions

12     about this, about the incidents in the field, and he would tell me that

13     he didn't know who fired.  This was just a pretext with which they tried

14     to prevent us from discovering the real situation.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mircic.  Now that we are discussing these issues,

16     could you please tell us what was the security situation in the territory

17     of your OUP in 1998 and 1999?

18        A.   In our estimate the security situation in the territory of the

19     municipality of Decani was a very complex one.  What made it more

20     difficult was the arrival of terrorists to the territory of the

21     municipality of Decani and also to the arrival of weapons.  So in

22     parallel, all the villages were armed.  There were orders issued to

23     certain persons to go to Albania and bring in weapons.  Every village

24     that was armed was signed in some way during the night.  They would fire

25     several times in order to inform the adjacent villages that they were

Page 13232

 1     armed, and I can also tell you that this is something that started to

 2     happen back in 1990s when I was still working for the state security

 3     sector.  The terrorist groups were coming in.  They were trained there in

 4     the town of Labinot, and on several occasions we discovered those illegal

 5     organisations and we also prosecuted them.

 6             I can also mention one terrorist attack in Decani itself carried

 7     out by Salih Ceka [phoen] which two other persons in a cafe where both

 8     Serbs and Albanians were coming, and on that occasion four or five

 9     civilians were injured.

10        Q.   Could you please focus on the year 1998 and 1999 now.  This is

11     what we are particularly interested in.  Could you please tell us given

12     the position of your Department of Internal Affairs, what was the

13     security situation there?

14        A.   The security situation was very complex.  My municipality was

15     ethnically clean so to say so all the villages were Albanian, purely

16     Albanian, particularly the villages next to the border.  In my

17     municipality I had approximately 700 Serbs, very few of them in some

18     villages and even if those villages, the Serbian houses were at large

19     distance from one other, and 99.9 per cent of the population was

20     Albanian.  And in 1998 and 1999, the situation was just as I described

21     it, and the Serbs and Montenegrins started to move out from this region

22     much earlier after 1981.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Mircic.  We will talk more about this

24     when we see some documents, but now, first of all, I would like a Defence

25     binder to be provided to you.  The first binder obviously, if Your

Page 13233

 1     Honours will allow this, I would like to show you some documents and when

 2     you see the documents on the screen, I will also inform you where you can

 3     find them in your binder.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the Exhibit

 5     P357.  Sorry, P5357.

 6        Q.   This is number 1 in your binder.

 7             Mr. Mircic, these are the rules on the internal organisation of

 8     the Ministry of the Interior.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 6 in

10     B/C/S.  This is Article 4.  I assume that it is the same page in the

11     English version.

12        Q.   Could you please take a look at Article 4.  In Article 4 you can

13     see that within the secretariat referred to in Article 3 of these rules,

14     the former -- the following departments of the Internal Affairs are

15     established, and then we can see here Decani in Djakovica.  So is this

16     the article that regulates the department of the interior in Decani?

17        A.   Yes, these are the rules on the internal organisation of the

18     Ministry of the Interior.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

21     Article 5.  This is page 8 in both versions.

22        Q.   So here in Article 8 we can see --

23             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] I apologise.  This is page 7 in

24     English and Article 5.  For the sake of Their Honours and other

25     participants in this trial, we have to take a look at Article 5 in

Page 13234

 1     English as well.

 2        Q.   So it says, Department of the interior and police stations under

 3     Article 4 of these rules shall directly perform tasks relating to

 4     Internal Affairs on the territory of these municipalities.  Could you

 5     please comment on this article?

 6        A.   By virtue of this article, several departments are being charged

 7     in taking over security responsibilities in the municipalities mentioned

 8     therein, which is in keeping with the Law on the Interior.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to Article 36,

10     page 34 in the Serbian and 31 in the English.

11        Q.   The subtitle -- have you found Article 36?  The subtitle is

12     "organisational units in the municipalities."  And Article 36 we see a

13     department of the interior is responsible for, and I won't go reading the

14     whole article, but I just wanted your comment in terms of the tasks and

15     duties of the departments of the interior?

16        A.   In the Article 36 it says that a department of the interior is

17     there to provide security to citizens and property in the area of the

18     municipality, as well as to protect law and order, process crimes, border

19     issues are mentioned as well.  So this article regulates the scope of

20     authority per departments concerning their work in the field.

21        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 2, it is stated that a department of

22     interior consists of a police station.  Within your OUP was there a

23     police station?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to approach

25     the microphone.

Page 13235

 1             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Mircic, please approach the microphone given that the

 3     interpreters can hardly hear you.  Thank you.  Within your OUP, were

 4     there any police detachments?

 5        A.   Yes, there were two.  In Ursnic [phoen] and Junik.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Article 48, please.  I believe it

 8     is page 39 in the English.

 9        Q.   Article 48.  Yes, briefly only.  Article 48 describes the scope

10     of work of police stations.  In the last of paragraph it is stated that

11     police stations may include police branch stations or substations.

12        A.   Yes, it prescribes that there may be branch stations within OUPs

13     and below police stations.

14        Q.   So police substations as part of police stations?

15        A.   Yes, as part of OUPs and the police stations within the OUP of

16     Decani.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What were the tasks and duties from the interior

18     domain which you performed as part of the OUP?

19        A.   That was stipulated by way of our internal organisation as per

20     rules.  We were supposed to work on crime prevention, preserving law and

21     order, protect property and safety, property and citizens, administrative

22     affairs, issuing of personal documents, driving licences, weapons,

23     permits, and licences.  Everything mentioned in the rules of the work of

24     interior organs.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you also perform duties which fell within the

Page 13236

 1     domain of regular police task, routine tasks?

 2        A.   Yes, by all means.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I have to ask you yet again to pause before

 4     answering.  Did you during 1998 and 1999 take part in the performing of

 5     special security related tasks in the area of Kosovo and Metohija?  When

 6     I say you, I mean you as the chief of the OUP and your OUP as such?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  How was the work of your OUP organised in 1998 and

 9     1999?

10        A.   As with other routine tasks before that period, i.e., protecting

11     property, citizens, providing security, issuing IDs, drivers licences,

12     administrative affairs, traffic.

13        Q.   You've already said this, but I had in mind the way the OUP was

14     organised.

15        A.   The same as other routine, regular tasks and situations.

16        Q.   How many members did your OUP have?

17        A.   According to the structure, there should have been 117 [as

18     interpreted] employees with the P status, meaning uniformed personnel.

19        Q.   Did you say 111?

20        A.   Yes, 111.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Something else was recorded.

22        A.   But we were never able to reach that figure so the most we had

23     was about 80 P status personnel.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Within your OUP, were there any reserve policemen?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13237

 1        Q.   How and when were they engaged?

 2        A.   Members of the reserve force were usually engaged by order of the

 3     minister of the interior.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P66.

 6        Q.   It is your tab 2.  Mr. Mircic, this is the Law on the Interior.

 7             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation]Could we see Article 28, please.

 8     In the English it's page 9.

 9        Q.   Article 28, first paragraph.  Can you read it and tell us,

10     please, whether it stipulates who and under what conditions can call on

11     reserve police force members?

12        A.   It says, The minister may call up the members of the Ministry of

13     the Interior as a reserve force to perform certain peacetime duties of

14     the ministry, in particular to prevent activities aimed at threatening

15     the security of the republic.

16        Q.   Thank you.  There's no need to read it all.  We can see it for

17     ourselves.  Was it foreseen under this article --

18             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:  Did this article

19     prescribe how reserve police forces could be mobilised?

20        A.   Yes, and it states that it should happen pursuant to the

21     minister's decision.

22             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D102, it is

23     your tab 3.

24        Q.   This is an order to call up and engage reserve forces personnel

25     to carry out certain peacetime tasks of the ministry.  First of all, do

Page 13238

 1     you recognise this document?

 2        A.   I do.  From a collegium meeting with the chief of the

 3     secretariat.  He acquainted us with this order based on the law of the

 4     interior on Article 28 on the call-up of reserve police members in order

 5     to complete certain tasks on behalf of the ministry.  And this order

 6     prescribes the mode of operation.

 7        Q.   Could you please go to item 5.  Comment briefly, please.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak out and approach

 9     the microphone.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every six months such orders were

11     put in place.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Please approach the microphone so

13     that the interpreters can hear you.  Very well.  Could we next have D103.

14        Q.   It is your tab 4.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Briefly only, are you familiar with this document?

17        A.   Yes.  This is a similar order to the previous one except that the

18     date is the 1st of January, 1999, which means that such orders came into

19     being every six months or so, as I've already explained.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Next could we please have D101.

22        Q.   It is your tab 5.  Instruction on or directive on the performance

23     of Internal Affairs duties by reserve forces personnel of the ministry.

24     Comment briefly, please.  It was issued by Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic, the

25     minister?

Page 13239

 1        A.   Yes, this directive follows from the minister's order.  It

 2     contains basic provisions.  First it regulates the performance of duties

 3     and the way of reporting and informing per each and every item that

 4     needed to be acted upon.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We saw certain documents which serve as the basis for

 6     call-up of reserve police force members.  In your OUP area what was the

 7     situation like and what need did you have for any reserve forces and were

 8     they engaged as part of your OUP?

 9        A.   Given the number of population in the municipality of Decani, I

10     had very few reserve members who were engaged in routine tasks alongside

11     active-duty policemen in patrols, on the beat, and at check-points.

12        Q.   Were there any specific circumstances concerning the engagement

13     of reserve members and their serving alongside active-duty members?

14        A.   The reserve force could never set about a task independently.

15     There were always to be accompanied by an active duty policemen, usually

16     it would be the chief of a sector or the head of a patrol.  Reservists

17     could never independently perform tasks, and they were not trained to do

18     so.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Within your OUP you said you had substations.  Can

20     you tell us where they were located?

21        A.   In the village of Ursnic and Junik.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Who established these substations and how were they

23     organised?

24        A.   As we said already, the minister issued a decision on internal

25     organisation of these substations.  Within their respective areas they

Page 13240

 1     had sectors for the performance of their tasks.  They performed sectoral

 2     work in the field.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P257.

 5        Q.   It is your tab 6.  But before that, could you please tell us

 6     whether as part of your OUP you ever had any members of the PJP?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   How many such PJP members were there in your OUP?

 9        A.   Within my OUP there were usually at the level of one platoon,

10     meaning 20 to 30 men strong headed by the platoon commander.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Which company did those PJP members belong to?

12        A.   To the SUP -- to the Djakovica SUP company.

13        Q.   I would like to put some general questions to you about PJP

14     units.  Do you know when those units were established and whether they

15     were established for the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia?

16        A.   Yes, I was aware of that.  I was informed by the chief of the

17     secretariat.  We regularly held staff meetings, collegiums, and in one of

18     such meetings the chief of the secretariat informed his immediate

19     subordinates that 124th Intervention Brigade was created by the minister

20     by way of a decision issued by the minister.

21        Q.   For the sake of clarity, when you say chief of the secretariat,

22     who do you have in mind?

23        A.   Chief Kovacevic in the Djakovica SUP.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, as for the decision that is on the screen, we

25     will return to it later.  I wanted to focus on some general matters.  Do

Page 13241

 1     you know about PJPs, when they were established and whether they were

 2     established for the territory of the entire Republic of Serbia?

 3        A.   I already said about when they were established.  And yes, they

 4     were established for the territory of the entire Republic of Serbia.

 5        Q.   Were those regular police units, or were they engaged as needed?

 6        A.   They are not regular police units.  They were engaged as needed.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, members of PJP units, when they were not engaged

 8     within such units, what duties and tasks did they perform?

 9        A.   They performed regular routine duties and tasks just like all

10     other police members.

11        Q.   Tell me, please, do you know that PJPs in the 1990s, but before

12     1998 and 1999 were used in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, and

13     if you do have such information, then tell us when?

14        A.   They were used in mass demonstrations, which were held in Serbia

15     and primarily in Belgrade.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, I would like us to focus on PJPs within your

17     OUP.  How did you assemble and deploy members of PJPs, to be more

18     precise, based on whose orders were they assembled and where were they

19     sent?

20        A.   Given that the minister adopted the decision on creating PJPs, it

21     was done on the basis of his order.  And then also based on the regional

22     secretariat who within their line of work would send it to relevant OUPs.

23     We would be informed either by dispatch or by phone that we needed to

24     assemble a PJP with certain uniforms, with certain resources, and that we

25     needed to deploy them to where they needed to be added to the Djakovica

Page 13242

 1     SUP company.  The station commander was immediately in charge of that.

 2     He would convey this to the platoon commander.  The platoon that belonged

 3     to the Decani OUP, and this is how they were organised.

 4             I would always be informed of their engagement and deployment --

 5     deployment of the members of the PJP Decani OUP had who were within the

 6     composition of the Djakovica SUP.

 7        Q.   What was the relationship between members of PJP who came from

 8     your organisation to you from the moment they were deployed?

 9        A.   They had no responsibility vis-a-vis me.  Either disciplinary nor

10     any other.  They were subordinated to their company commanders.  They

11     were already under the command of people who headed those companies and

12     detachments.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive any reports about members of PJP who

14     were originally from your OUP after their deployment?

15        A.   We would receive such reports in exceptional circumstances.  If

16     they were wounded out in the field or killed, so if there were any

17     victims among the members of PJP, and if they were originally from our

18     OUP, yes, we would be informed of such consequences.

19        Q.   And were those the only reports you received in relation to

20     members of PJP from your OUP?

21        A.   Yes, those were the only reports.  No other reports.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak up and speak

23     into the microphone.

24             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I will ask you to speak into the microphone.  And to make a pause

Page 13243

 1     before answering my question.

 2             Mr. Mircic, did you you receive any sort of information about

 3     anti-terrorist actions or operations conducted by members of PJP units

 4     from your OUP?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   After deploying members of PJP, would you inform the police

 7     branch station within the secretariat on anything?

 8        A.   That would normally be done by the commander of the substation.

 9        Q.   What would he inform them of?

10        A.   He would inform them about the composition of the unit, whether

11     there were people who were absent, people who did not respond to a

12     call-up, whether anybody was ill.  Basically to inform them about the

13     composition, about the strength of the unit.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And once that unit returned after completing their

15     tasks and these members of PJP unit who were originally from your OUP,

16     who would normally inform you about their imminent return and about when

17     they needed to report to their regular duties?

18        A.   The chief of the police substation would inform with -- within

19     his line of work, and I would also receive a copy of a dispatch.

20        Q.   Mr. Mircic, thank you.  Do you know who commanded forces of PJP

21     units in Kosovo in 1999?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  That was the staff which was headquartered in

23     Pristina.  They were in command of PJP units in Kosovo and Metohija.

24        Q.   Can you tell us who headed that staff?

25        A.   Sreten Lukic was the head of that staff.  General Lukic.  The

Page 13244

 1     staff was established from two departments, state security department and

 2     public security department.  Lukic's deputy was Gajic, David Gajic.

 3        Q.   What was his position?

 4        A.   He was deputy of Mr. Lukic.

 5        Q.   And he belonged to which department?

 6        A.   To the state security department.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mircic, given that you first worked for the state security

 8     department and then for the public security department, tell us, please,

 9     whether the chief of the public security department could issue any sort

10     of orders to the members of the state security department?

11        A.   No, out of the question.  He could only issue his orders within

12     his line of work, which was the public security department.

13        Q.   And who could then issue orders to this body which assembled

14     together both members of the public security and state security

15     department?

16        A.   Lukic, General Lukic could.

17        Q.   Do you know who established this staff headed by General Lukic?

18        A.   Yes.  That staff was created based on the decision of the

19     minister of the interior of Vlajko Stojiljkovic.

20        Q.   How do you know of this?

21        A.   We were told of this in our regular meetings with the chief of

22     the secretariat, collegium meetings.  He informed us that the staff had

23     been created and that chiefs of secretariats were members of the expanded

24     composition of that staff.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On that occasion, did the chief of the secretariat

Page 13245

 1     tell you to whom the staff headed by Lukic was responsible?

 2        A.   Yes, he told us.  He told us that the staff headed by Lukic was

 3     directly responsible to the minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mircic, did you visit your units, members of PJP

 5     from your OUP after they had been deployed?

 6        A.   No, I never visited them.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, given that we have this decision on the screen,

 8     the decision on establishing the 124th Intervention Brigade of the PJP,

 9     tell us please, do you know of this decision?

10        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it.  It was read at one of our collegium

11     meetings within the Djakovica SUP.  We were informed of it as part of our

12     regular duties.  This is a decision number such and such, pursuant to

13     which the 124th Intervention Brigade of PJPs was established.

14        Q.   Tell me, please, were members of a PJP unit from your OUP

15     deployed to the 124th Intervention Brigade?

16        A.   Yes, since they were members of the company of the Djakovica

17     secretariat.  They became members of the 124th Brigade because 124th

18     Brigade was for the territory of the entire Kosovo.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mircic.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D008-0594, which

21     is your tab 7.

22        Q.   Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch from the 13th of April, 1998 in

23     which it says that:

24             "We have intelligence that all men fit for military service from

25     the village of Crnobreg, Decani municipality have been armed with

Page 13246

 1     standard issue weapons and artillery shipped illegally from Albania under

 2     the arrangements made by the DSK."

 3             Could you please comment on this, and does this reflect the

 4     security situation in the Decani area?

 5        A.   Yes, this is just one of the pieces of information concerning the

 6     village of Crnobreg.  All villages were armed, Albanians and terrorist

 7     groups were armed and established in each village.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 7 in the

10     B/C/S version and in the English one as well.  And as for my learned

11     friend from the Prosecution and the Chamber, I will tell you that the

12     same information is repeated on the pages in between, so I think it would

13     be a waste of time if we were to spend much time on it.

14        Q.   So, Mr. Mircic, would you please look at page 7 and the document

15     there.  That is a dispatch dated 13th of April, 1998.  And in the middle

16     of that document they say:

17             "We also have information that other terrorist groups are

18     acquiring artillery guns as well.  For example, a terrorist group in

19     Jablanica has in their possession four guns which according to our

20     information had been stolen from the Army of Yugoslavia in the area of

21     Drenica."

22             Did you have such information that KLA had this type of weaponry

23     as well?

24        A.   All intelligence received from the ground indicated that they had

25     both heavy weapons and small arms.  They had recoilless guns, mortars,

Page 13247

 1     112 millimetres and 60 millimetres.  They had heavy machine-guns, 12 and

 2     7.  They had shoulder rocket-launchers.  They had explosives and mines.

 3     They had the entire arsenal within the infantry weaponry and small arms.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now turn to page 9 of the

 6     same document.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mircic, again this is dispatch number 27.  13th of April,

 8     1998.  In the first paragraph they state --

 9             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] It's on the following page in the

10     English version.  Yes.

11        Q.   We have intelligence that:

12             "On the 12th of April, 1998 in the village of Istinic in Decani

13     municipality leaders of the DSK had a meeting with Siptar residents of

14     the village of Istinic where a request was made for the villagers to arm

15     themselves and for a terrorist group from Jablanica to be deployed in the

16     village to defend it from the Serbian aggressor."

17             Are you familiar with this?

18        A.   Yes, just like all the previous information, the village of

19     Istinic belongs to the same group, in the vicinity of Decani.  The main

20     role was played by the staff headed by Ramush Haradinaj in the village of

21     Jablancia.  All the villages were barricaded with trenches surrounding

22     them and protected by heavy weaponry that they had their place.  Every

23     village had a local commander and every village had establishment

24     terrorist groups.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, could you please turn to the last --

Page 13248

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic --

 2             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] One more minute.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Very quickly, Mr. Mircic, on the 12th of April, the following

 6     Serbian and Montenegrin families left their homes for security reasons,

 7     and then they go on to list the names of these families and the names of

 8     family members.  Did you have any such information, can you tell us

 9     something briefly about it?

10        A.   Yes, the families that were in minority in those areas -- in

11     those villages moved out.  They came to Decani for their own personal

12     safety.  On the road to Decani terrorist groups would detain certain

13     persons in the staff in the village of Glodjani from which Ramush

14     Haradinaj hails and where his staff was.  We had an eye-witness who had

15     been released from that staff.  He was a Montenegrin by origin and

16     Haradinaj's father released Kostadin Stijovic [phoen].  He refused to

17     lock him up, and this man came to me at the SUP and told me about

18     everything that had happened, which is to say, that he had been released

19     due to some friendly causes.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mircic, and before

21     we break for today, could we have this document admitted into evidence,

22     please, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00910.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We must resume now for the evening.  We resume

Page 13249

 1     tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.  A Court Officer will assist you when we

 2     adjourn.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of March,

 6                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.