Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13250

 1                           Tuesday, 23 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  They may be better over the top of

 7     your head, not behind.  The earphones.  Thank you.  Please sit down.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  The affirmation you made to tell the truth still

10     applies.

11             Mr. Popovic.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  VUKMIR MIRCIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Popovic:  [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mircic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   We will resume.  The binder is before you.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D001-6283.

20        Q.   It is your tab 8.  This is a criminal report dated 29 June 1998

21     submitted to the district public prosecutor's office in Pec against six

22     individuals.  If you look at page 3 in both languages, in the statement

23     of reasons, because of which the report was filed, it is stated that on

24     the 25th of June, 1998, around 4.30 they unloaded a shipment of weapons

25     in the village of Jasic, Decani municipality in the presence of members

Page 13251

 1     of DTG.  I merely wanted to ask you whether this reflects your

 2     information about the situation in the Decani municipality?

 3        A.   Yes.  This report was submitted by the state security by their

 4     office in Djakovica which was under the Prizren centre.  It is correct

 5     that on page 3 there is a description stating that in Jasici, in the

 6     school there, which is close to Decani and Junik next to the Albanian

 7     border, our operational information states that the information contained

 8     therein is correct, and that there was a shipment of weapons there which

 9     was to be distributed to the Albanian population.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender this

12     document.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00911, Your Honour.

15             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we next see D106.

16        Q.   It is your tab 9.  Mr. Mircic, this is a decision by Minister

17     Stojiljkovic dated 19 July 1998.  In paragraph 1, it is stated as

18     follows:

19             "For having distinguished themselves in carrying out the security

20     tasks of prevention of terrorism in the area of the Autonomous province

21     of Kosovo and Metohija since 20 July 1998, I hereby award the PJP, SAJ,

22     and JSO members with 50 dinars for every day of engagement."

23             Have you had occasion to see this decision before?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  I have.  I saw it at the collegium meeting of the

25     SUPs of chief in Djakovica.  We were informed that pursuant to a specific

Page 13252

 1     article of the Law on the Interior, the minister made this decision that

 2     the following persons be awarded for having distinguished themselves in

 3     service.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next go to D107.

 6        Q.   It is the next tab, tab 10.  I'll have a few questions about

 7     that.  Here you can see a dispatch of the staff of the ministry dated 20

 8     October 1998 where it says in para 1:

 9             "In accordance with the ministry's decision on rewarding PJP

10     members, SAJ, and JSO members, for excelling in the implementation of

11     security related tasks in the area of Kosovo and Metohija, lists must be

12     drawn up from the period from 18 September to 17 October 1998 (at 50

13     dinars per day)."

14             First of all, are you familiar with this dispatch?

15        A.   Yes, I was familiar with it because it was sent to all chiefs and

16     general affairs departments in the SUPs in Kosovo and at the collegium

17     session we were acquainted with the dispatch.

18        Q.   Does this dispatch have anything to do with the decision we just

19     saw?

20        A.   Yes, it comes as a result of the decision issued by the minister.

21        Q.   Yesterday you told us that within your OUP for your own purposes

22     and records, you also kept records of PJP members being engaged in

23     certain tasks, that is to say, when they left and came back after which

24     they would again be assigned to regular duties.  Is this dispatch in line

25     with the register you kept?

Page 13253

 1        A.   Yes, of course it is.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D108 next.

 4        Q.   It is your tab 11.  Another dispatch of the ministry staff in

 5     Pristina dated 3 August 1998.  Without reading the whole thing, I just

 6     wanted to ask you to acquaint yourself briefly with the dispatch and

 7     comment.  First I'd like to know whether you are familiar with it, and if

 8     so, please tell us something about it.

 9        A.   Of course I'm familiar with it.  At a working meeting of the

10     chiefs of secretariat we were acquainted with the dispatch of the MUP

11     staffs signed by General Sreten Lukic.  Given that the staff in Pristina

12     was established by both public security and state security sectors, it

13     is -- there's information here stating that certain Albanians who

14     participated in the terrorist activities at KiM are making use of

15     falsified doctored certificates and in order to escape mop-up terrorist

16     operations and used to enter towns.  Because of this, certain measures

17     were proposed.  One of which were detail searches of individuals and

18     bringing them in for criminal investigation for identification checking

19     operative and criminal records, conducting paraffin tests, as well as

20     other operational and investigative measures in keeping with the Law on

21     the Interior.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D109.

24        Q.   It is your tab 12.  Again the same question.  This seems to be

25     another dispatch of the MUP staff in Pristina dated 3 August 1998.  Are

Page 13254

 1     you familiar with it?  I won't read it out.  It is rather brief.  Please

 2     read it to yourself and provide a brief comment of the contents.

 3        A.   Yes.  This is another dispatch that was shown to us at the

 4     collegium of the secretariat chiefs.  It was read out to all those in

 5     attendance and distributed forward.  It also contains information of

 6     possible attacks by terrorist groups in some towns or municipal centres

 7     in order to take them.  Based on that information, certain measures are

 8     proposed.  Given that in keeping with the instructions for the defence of

 9     inhabited places, it is necessary to draw up defence plans for each

10     municipal centre and submit them to the staff by 6 August 1998 at the

11     latest.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down when

13     reading.

14             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        A.   In addition to this and in order to provide timely and accurate

16     information, you also need to submit reports/dispatches --

17        Q.   Please read out slowly and approach the microphone.

18        A.   In addition to this and in order to provide timely and accurate

19     information, you also need to submit reports/dispatches on incidents in

20     which policemen were killed or wounded to the secretariats in which they

21     worked.

22             This resembles the other dispatch we saw when we discussed the

23     PJP concerning reporting from the field on those killed and wounded.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next see D240, please.

Page 13255

 1        Q.   It is your tab 13.  Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch of the

 2     ministry staff in Pristina dated 9 August 1998.  I'm particularly

 3     interested in the last paragraph where it is stated that measures need to

 4     be taken in different companies which have construction machinery in

 5     order to demolish and fill in bunkers, shelters, trenches, and other

 6     features constructed by the terrorists for protection and firing on the

 7     police and members of the Yugoslav Army so that they cannot occupy and

 8     use them again.  First of all, tell us, please, whether in the territory

 9     of your OUP there were such features, things like bunkers, trenches, and

10     shelters, and if there were any, please tell us about their location?

11        A.   Yes, in every village in my area there were bunkers, trenches,

12     which were there for protection in case of attack of Serb forces.  We can

13     basically say that each and every village had such bunkers and trenches.

14        Q.   Who dug out those trenches and who built those bunkers?

15        A.   The villagers themselves.  They were basically forced by the KLA

16     so that there is some protection in case of an attack by the Serb police.

17        Q.   Who made use of those trenches and bunkers?

18        A.   They were used by KLA.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D008-0550.  It

21     is your tab 14.  We can move on to the next page in both languages.

22        Q.   Mr. Mircic, this is a record of the hand-over of weapons in Junik

23     on the 23rd of August, 1998.  Are you familiar with this document?

24        A.   Yes, I am familiar with it.  This is a record of weapons found in

25     the village of Junik, Decani municipality, in a large bunker used as a

Page 13256

 1     depot.  For some reasons, the KLA must have left those weapons there

 2     probably to distribute them further in different villages.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, I would

 4     like to tender this into evidence.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00912, Your Honour.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now see

 8     D006-4490.

 9        Q.   That's your tab 15.  Mr. Mircic, this is a statement by Adrian

10     Kumnova given to an authorised official of the Republic of Serbia MUP on

11     the 24th of August 1998 in the Djakovica SUP premises.  And in the first

12     paragraph of this statement that person states that a member of the

13     illegal terrorist group for Djakovica with headquarters in the village of

14     Glodjani, Decani municipality, which is where the reception centre is

15     located for members of sabotage terrorist group for the territory of Ras

16     Dukagjini, I became a member of that group voluntarily in June of 1998.

17     And then further on in the middle of that page, he says on the following

18     day, When the flag was raised at 700 hours by Ramush Haradinaj of

19     Glodjane village, who was a commander of the staff of DTG, which is a

20     sabotage terrorist group from Metohija, we were told and then so on and

21     so on.  What I want to know is what did you know about the village of

22     Glodjane and what did you know about Ramush Haradinaj?

23        A.   Our information concerning the village of Glodjane in Decani

24     municipality was always derived from intelligence sources.  We always had

25     timely information and confirmed information that in this territory and

Page 13257

 1     in this village there was a staff or headquarters located of the members

 2     of a DTG sabotage terrorist group headed by Ramush Haradinaj who was a

 3     commander for the Metohija area.

 4             In this village, which is located quite close to Jablanica and

 5     strategically was a very favourable position for them for training and

 6     other activities and exercises, Ramush Haradinaj created and recruited a

 7     group there with members whom he trained in order to carry out sabotage

 8     and terrorist acts against the members of the Yugoslav police and army.

 9     You can see that based on the statement of a member of this group who

10     stayed in the village of Glodjane.

11             Intelligence information -- confirmed intelligence indicated that

12     in Glodjane, there was also a prison which served to keep members of Serb

13     ethnicity there who had been kidnapped in the territory of other villages

14     in Decani municipality and brought there to be questioned.  As I have

15     said yesterday, due to some friendly relations, one such person was

16     released and the rest were kept there.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 2 of this

19     document.

20        Q.   And on the second page this person says, Exactly 14 days ago,

21     together with a DTG from Djakovica at about 900 hours in the village of

22     Prilep, fire was opened from ambush on the members of police.  This was a

23     terrorist act on our part.  Does this correspond to the information you

24     had about the activities of terrorists, and does this -- is this

25     consistent with information you had about the location?

Page 13258

 1        A.   Yes, it is true that in this period of time which this person

 2     mentions in the village of Prilep there was a terrorist attack against

 3     members of the MUP of Serbia.  We had both fatalities among them and also

 4     seriously injured persons.  Prilep was also quite favourable

 5     strategically for members of the KLA because it was located in the

 6     vicinity of Glodjane, and it gravitated towards other villages in the

 7     border area, border with Albania.  That was a very important corridor for

 8     them, for infiltration of further terrorist groups and weaponry.

 9        Q.   When speaking of Prilep, can you please tell us its exact

10     location, rather, did it have anything to do with the main road between

11     Djakovica and Decani?

12        A.   Yes, Prilep was 5 kilometres from Decani, and there is a main

13     road there between Decani and Djakovica.  The main road.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mircic.

15             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

16     tender this into evidence.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00913, Your Honour.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see now D008-5356.

20        Q.   It's your tab 16.  Mr. Mircic, this is a record on receipt of a

21     criminal report which was filed with the Djakovica SUP but also with the

22     Decani OUP.  We see here that an injured party, Ljubisa Radunovic,

23     submitted a criminal report about the fact that Milos Radunovic and

24     Milica Radunovic were abducted.  Are you familiar with this document, and

25     were there such events in the territory of your OUP?

Page 13259

 1        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this document.  As I have said just a

 2     minute ago, in the village of Glodjane, Decani municipality, there was a

 3     KLA prison under the command of Ramush Haradinaj.  And as I have said to

 4     you, there were Serbs that had been taken into custody and kept in that

 5     prison by them.  So the possibility is that these persons were also kept

 6     in that prison in Glodjane.  This criminal report was filed by the son of

 7     the Radunovic family.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10     tender this document into evidence.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00914, Your Honours.

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D008-5359.

14        Q.   Your tab 17, Mr. Mircic.  Again, this is a record on receipt of a

15     criminal report filed with the Djakovica SUP but also forwarded to the

16     Decani OUP.  In this case, it involves an abduction by terrorist

17     Albanians of Milan Vlahovic, but by --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  By Albanian

19     terrorists, abduction of Veko and Milovan Vlahovic.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Are you familiar with this situation?

22        A.   Yes, I know of this case and I know of this document, and as I've

23     said earlier to you, all our intelligence on the fact that Serbs went

24     missing in Decani municipality indicated that those who went missing were

25     kept in this prison which was run by Ramush Haradinaj in the village of

Page 13260

 1     Glodjane.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, tell me, please, loyal citizens, those who were

 3     loyal to Serbia and to authorities, did they have problems with the KLA

 4     members?

 5        A.   Yes, we received numerous pieces of information from the ground

 6     that these people did encounter problems, these Albanians.  That had to

 7     do with financial support of terrorists.  These people had to dig

 8     trenches.  They had to cook food, and play the role of logistic support

 9     for the members of the KLA.

10             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript, my

11     question had to do with loyal citizens of Albanian ethnicity, that's what

12     I was interested in, and it wasn't reflected in the transcript.  Your

13     Honours, I would like to tender this document into evidence.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00915, Your Honour.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now see D242,

17     please.

18        Q.   This is your tab 18, if I'm not mistaken.  Mr. Mircic, this is a

19     dispatch by the staff number 3061 of 16 September 1998 concerning the

20     missions and weaknesses in the work of the police.  First of all, are you

21     familiar with this document, and if so, would you please look at the

22     first paragraph where these weaknesses are described.

23        A.   Yes, I am familiar with this dispatch that came from the MUP

24     staff in Pristina.  It was signed by General Sreten Lukic.  Again, this

25     dispatch was read out to us at the collegium meeting of the SUP in

Page 13261

 1     Djakovica, and this dispatch stated that measures need to be taken

 2     against policemen who violate their duty in any way.  They needed to act

 3     appropriately and have appropriate appearance as instructed by the rules

 4     of service within the Ministry of the Interior.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P1202.

 7        Q.   Which is your tab 19.  Mr. Mircic, this is dispatch number 1685

 8     dated 18 September 1998.  It was signed on behalf of the assistant

 9     minister for the public security department, Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic.

10     And my question to you is, are you familiar with this dispatch, and if

11     so, could you briefly tell us what this dispatch is about, and does it

12     have to do with regular routine, duties, and tasks within the area of

13     work of the public security department?

14        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this dispatch as well.  It was read out at

15     the collegium meeting of the Djakovica SUP.  In the dispatch we can see

16     what measures need to be taken and what intelligence was received from

17     the field.  We can see that important vital facilities need to be

18     constantly toured and they need to be secured, both in operational terms

19     and in intelligence terms.  It needed to be done by police members, and

20     it was all done within an action which had been implemented by the

21     Ministry of the Interior by way of which explosives and mines were placed

22     around the facilities which were of vital importance to the republic and

23     to the province of Kosovo.

24             This dispatch also instructed that the control of traffic in the

25     territory of Kosovo and Metohija and transportation of any dangerous

Page 13262

 1     hazardous material needed to be stepped up.

 2        Q.   Just to clarify what is stated in the transcript, did they mean

 3     that facilities needed to be protected against mines that could be placed

 4     and explosives that could be placed?

 5        A.   Yes.  They -- what they meant is protection of these facilities

 6     against mines and explosive that could be placed by terrorists in the

 7     area.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D429, please,

10     which is your tab 20.

11        Q.   Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch of the staff dated 14 September

12     1998 to the office of the minister.  In paragraph 1 it is stated that on

13     the 10th of September, 1998 in the village of Istinic, Decani

14     municipality, members of the Ministry of the Interior held talks with

15     representatives of the Siptar ethnic minority who had abandoned their

16     homes during the armed operations carried out by Siptar terrorists.  Anne

17     Delforge, a representative of the International Red Cross from the

18     Belgrade mission, was present during the talks.  When the policemen

19     called on the representatives of the Siptar ethnic minority from Istinic

20     and other villages to return to their homes, Anne Delforge warned them on

21     several occasions and asked the people present not to return to their

22     homes because it was not safe, thus, causing panic, insecurity, and

23     uncertainty among the residents on whether to return or not.  Is any of

24     this familiar to you?

25        A.   Yes, it is.  Anne Delforge on several occasions during her visits

Page 13263

 1     in Decani municipality visited me in my office.  We had an open and fair

 2     relationship.  I also learned through my Albanian friends who are in

 3     Istinic that madam Anne Delforge was spreading propaganda among those who

 4     were present in Istinic to the effect that they should not go back to

 5     their homes because it wasn't safe.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mircic, we see Istinic and a date of 10 September 1998.  Can

 7     you tell us what was the situation like in Istinic village at the time?

 8     Are you familiar with it, and how?

 9        A.   Yes.  I am familiar with it.  Based on our operational

10     information and given than I hail from Decani and I spent my whole life

11     with Albanians with whom I have friends, friendly relations, they trusted

12     me greatly, in particular, when we discussed matters of their security.

13             We had confirmed operational information that in Istinic village,

14     Decani municipality, there were a lot of refugees from Decani and other

15     villages and that there was a great concentration of civilians, women,

16     children, the elderly there.  Our assessment was that there were between

17     15- and 20.000 people there.

18             The cause of that was fighting.  Terrorists kept attacking police

19     members in the general area of the municipalities of Djakovica and Decani

20     in the village of Jablanica and so on and so forth.  This was reason

21     enough for these civilians to flee so as to avoid being caught in

22     cross-fire during the clashes of the police and the KLA, and they feared

23     for their safety.

24             I tried to think of what we should do and how, given the great

25     numbers of civilians, since General Djordjevic was in Kosovo and Metohija

Page 13264

 1     at that time touring our organisational units, trying to acquaint himself

 2     with the overall situation in the field as well as the work of the

 3     Ministry of the Interior and its members and whether they conducted

 4     themselves properly and in a fashion prescribed by the law, I made use of

 5     that opportunity to inform Mr. Djordjevic about the information we had

 6     concerning this great problem which we had in the village of Istinic and

 7     in Decani.

 8             I also proposed that we should try to tackle this issue

 9     peacefully and consistently in order to ensure the safety of those

10     civilians.  General Djordjevic agreed with my proposal, and I clarified

11     for him further that I had friends among those people believing -- and I

12     believed that we could negotiate a peaceful hand-over of weapons of those

13     civilians who were armed and those members of the KLA who were manning

14     the barricades around the village of Istinic.

15             In that conversation with him, or rather, during that

16     conversation, the Assembly president of Decani, Milivoj Djurkovic

17     arrived.  He also had information indicating that there was a great

18     number of civilians including children there.  We suggested to him to

19     make use of our contact with certain persons in Istinic in order to

20     prepare foodstuffs and other supplies for the civilians as they may need

21     them.  This also included medical supplies.

22        Q.   I apologise for interruption, but I just wanted to clarify one

23     thing.  Was this the president of the municipality or of the Assembly of

24     the Decani municipality?

25        A.   The municipal president.

Page 13265

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Continue, please.

 2        A.   In our further assessment, I suggested to General Djordjevic to

 3     send a friendly contact from Istinic, Elis Bajlaj [phoen] to Decani.  He

 4     was a person of some standing in the community.  He was supposed to go

 5     there to talk to the representatives of the village and civilians who

 6     were in Istinic to see whether they would agree to a voluntary hand-over

 7     of weapons.  Otherwise, should the clashes continue, given that there

 8     were many civilians there, it could all result in a great number of

 9     civilian casualties.

10             General Djordjevic agreed to my proposal, and we followed it up.

11     We received information after awhile by Elis Bajlaj that our proposal was

12     well received on a voluntary hand-over of weapons by the KLA and others

13     in the village of Istinic.  This contact with Elis Bajlaj and Madjun

14     Mucaj from the village of Gornja Lupa [phoen] was established by myself

15     personally.  I agreed with them on the exact time of our entry in

16     Istinic.  I enjoyed full confidence with these people and I trusted them

17     in turn too because they were people whom one could trust and who were

18     respected members of their community.

19             As far as I recall, around 4.00 p.m., that was sometime in

20     September, if I'm not mistaken, General Djordjevic and I together with

21     the municipal president of Decani as well as with Zoran Andjelkovic who

22     was president of the temporary Executive Council of Kosovo and who was

23     there following a request made by the municipal president of Decani

24     because of the growing complexity of the security situation in

25     Istinic ...

Page 13266

 1             We set out from the OUP in Decani.  I, General Djordjevic, the

 2     municipal president; and Zoran Andjelkovic, president of the temporary

 3     executive council of Kosovo and Metohija, in an official vehicle without

 4     any escort by any members of police units.  Given that the village of

 5     Istinic is adjacent to Decani, the distance was perhaps as little as 3

 6     kilometres to the very centre of Istinic.

 7             En route to Istinic, we saw tractors loaded with significant

 8     amounts of weapons, light infantry weapons as well as artillery pieces

 9     such as recoilless guns, machine-guns of 12.7 millimetres, mines and

10     explosives on their way towards the OUP in Decani.  They waved to us on

11     their way there, they greeted us.

12             Upon entering the village of Istinic, we realised that all

13     barricades had been removed so as to enable us to enter.  Along the road

14     we could see a number of trenches and bunkers which had been used by KLA

15     members.  When we arrived at the centre of Istinic, certain

16     representatives of the village, whom I mentioned and others, welcomed us

17     warmly.  They greeted us in a truly friendly manner.

18        Q.   I apologise for interrupting you.  Did you enjoy any police

19     escort at that moment?

20        A.   At that moment we had no police escort.  We had no need for one

21     given that there was mutual trust.  We believed that we should not bring

22     along any policemen so as not to irritate the people there.

23        Q.   Thank you.  We have to rewind a bit to the beginning of the

24     event.  When General Djordjevic came to see you in Decani, according to

25     your information, was he familiar with the situation in Istinic?

Page 13267

 1        A.   No.  General Djordjevic had no information about Istinic.  It was

 2     my official duty to inform him of that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What ensued after your entry in the village?

 4        A.   After we entered the village and spoke to the representatives of

 5     all villages, we agreed to enter an Albanian home where we sat down and

 6     discussed all the issues on the mind of those who had fled from the other

 7     villages.  The municipal president and Zoran Andjelkovic promised to put

 8     in place certain measures in order to supply the population with food,

 9     medical supplies, and other necessities.  We also established a point in

10     the centre of Istinic --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Witness's microphone is off.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Could you please repeat the last several sentences because the

14     microphone was off for some reason.

15        A.   So as it was agreed with representatives of other villages and

16     the village of Istinic, in one Albanian house our relationship was

17     friendly and a correct one, and nobody could have ever guessed that

18     anything was happening in that area.  And from the very expression on the

19     faces of the refugees, you could see that they had hardly waited for the

20     situation in the village of Istinic to be resolved.  So as I said, we

21     undertook certain measures to supply them with food, water, and other

22     necessary supplies, medicines, and so on.  This was organised by the

23     municipal president and Zoran Andjelkovic as president of the temporary

24     Executive Council of Kosovo and Metohija.

25             Also we set a point in the centre of the village where weapons

Page 13268

 1     could be handed over.  A large amount of weapons were handed over, heavy

 2     weapons and light weapons, explosive devices.  Those were handed over by

 3     civilians coming from various villages within the municipality of Decani.

 4     The intelligence indicated that members of the KLA were also among the

 5     refugees, but they were wearing civilian clothes.

 6             I can also add that in the village of Istinic, in the very centre

 7     of the village, there was a mosque.  I received information from my

 8     Albanian friends that in that mosque there were several persons who were

 9     wounded during the conflicts between terrorists and the police.  So they

10     asked me, and in fact, they led me to the mosque to show these injured

11     persons to me.  I entered the mosque, I saw about a dozen persons there,

12     they were all exhausted, wounded.  And we immediately undertook certain

13     measures.

14             We invited an ambulance from the territory of the municipality of

15     Pec, and we also invited physicians of both Albanian and Serbian

16     ethnicity who came to the centre of Istinic.  They took over the wounded

17     and took care of them in the hospital in Pec.  So this is an example of

18     how we operated in the field and how we took care of the civilian

19     population and assisted them in any way possible at any moment.  If you

20     can just imagine given the quantity of weapons there and the

21     concentration of weapons was really inconceivable.  If there was a

22     provocation by terrorists or indeed an armed conflict, very very many

23     civilians would have ended up as casualties.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mircic.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move on.  I would

Page 13269

 1     kindly ask the Exhibit D244.

 2        Q.   This is your tab 21.  Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch of the MUP

 3     staff number 1026 dated 20th September, 1998.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

 5     page in both versions.

 6        Q.   Are you familiar with this dispatch?  And if you are, could you

 7     please focus on item 1?

 8        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this dispatch, I will not repeat how I

 9     learned about it so here it was requested for a list of villages to be

10     compiled, those villages who handed over weapons, ammunition, mines and

11     explosives, and other military equipment with information on the amounts

12     broken down by type for each village separately and together.  So this

13     was a dispatch of the staff signed by General Sreten Lukic who requested

14     us to collect all the information concerning the weapons that were handed

15     over, and that information had to be submitted to the staff.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mircic.  Under item 4, we can see a list of

17     villages where refugees have returned and the number of returnees.  When

18     we are talking about this item, if we could briefly go back to the

19     situation in Istinic, could you please tell us whether the people who

20     were in Istinic on that day, did they go back to their villages either on

21     that day or on any of the following days?

22        A.   Yes, I forgot to say that.  On the same day when we were there,

23     they could hardly wait to go back, and this was also our wish to help

24     them go back.  Many of them had transportation of their own, some of them

25     didn't.  They used their tractors and wagons, but for that purpose Zoran

Page 13270

 1     Andjelkovic and president of the municipality provided a bus.  And it was

 2     not a bus of the ministry, but it was a regular bus which was used to

 3     transport the population to their villages.

 4             We told them that it was safe and that they could go back and

 5     continue living in their own villages.  And this was indeed done, so all

 6     the persons who were in Istinic and who came from the villages in the

 7     territory of this municipality of Decani and other area, they went back

 8     to their respective villages without any pressure from the MUP.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Mircic.

10             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the Exhibit

11     D431.

12        Q.   This is your tab 22, sir.  Mr. Mircic, these are the minutes from

13     Djakovica SUP OUP Decani, dated 29th of September that had to do with the

14     weapons and ammunition handed over or discovered by members of MUP or

15     handed over by the Albanian population in the municipality of Decani.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, Your Honour,

17     this document, at least according to the translation that we did have

18     before, was translated in such a way that the numbers that are there in

19     the Serbian version were not all listed in the English translation, but

20     we could only see the final numbers, the totals, in English.

21             Is so if we could please have a look at the Serbian version, this

22     is page 5 in Serbian.  And I believe it is on the following page in

23     English.

24        Q.   So, Mr. Mircic.  Here we can see automatic guns of Chinese

25     production finishing with the number 725.

Page 13271

 1        A.   Yes, yes, this is correct.  So these weapons mostly came from the

 2     village of Istinic.  And they were handed over voluntarily.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Just a minute, Mr. Popovic.  Ms. Kravetz.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  I may be mistaken, Your Honour, but in the English

 6     version I have I don't have the complete document in the page that's

 7     being displayed in the B/C/S.  It at least was not included in my copy of

 8     the English.  I don't know if other pages are also missing in the English

 9     version.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you know about this, Mr. Popovic?

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, Your Honour, and this

12     is what we already discussed before you.  When this document was

13     translated, they did not mention all the numbers of weapons that you can

14     see in the Serbian version, but in the translation, they only mentioned

15     the totals of weapons, the same totals that are mentioned in the Serbian

16     version, and this translation was in this form admitted into evidence

17     because all the totals correspond fully to the totals in the original.

18     It is just that these 725 automatic rifles are not listed fully in the

19     English translation, so not all of their numbers are listed in the

20     English translation.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

22             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 7, if

23     I'm not mistaken.  Yes, it is page 7 in Serbian.

24        Q.   Mr. Mircic, these are semi-automatic rifles of Chinese

25     production.  The total number is 419.

Page 13272

 1        A.   Yes, this is correct.  These are all the numbers from the rifles

 2     and you can see the total.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 9 now.

 4        Q.   Here we can see the machine-gun and also machine-gun of calibre

 5     7.62, 54 pieces.  Also machine-gun Browning, 35 pieces.  So does this

 6     correspond to your recollection of what you saw in Istinic?

 7        A.   Yes.  This is a well famous fact that the terrorist use these

 8     types of weapons in their actions and they brought these weapons from the

 9     territory of Albania.

10             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at the

11     last page, this is page 11.  I believe this is on the following page in

12     English.

13        Q.   Here we can see hand-held rocket-launchers and you can see the

14     numbers here, also mortars, seven pieces.  Is this the kind of weapons

15     that people in Istinic and elsewhere in the territory of OUP Decani had?

16        A.   Yes, they even had Ambrust anti-rocket system for air defence.

17        Q.   Mr. Mircic, the weapons discovered in the village of Istinic,

18     could it be seen by foreign observers?

19        A.   Yes, all of these weapons that was turned over voluntarily by the

20     Albanian national minority was displayed in the facility of the OUP

21     Decani, and we allowed access to anybody who wanted to see the kinds of

22     weapons that the terrorists in the territory of the municipality of

23     Decani had.  And we also did have visitors who were, in fact,

24     representatives of diplomatic world and media and who also represented

25     this in the various media.

Page 13273

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me whether in the territory of

 2     the OUP Decani, you had members of the reserve police departments?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Do you know anything concerning the local security?

 5        A.   Yes, the local security was established in my territory

 6     approximately, there were about ten such security units in villages of

 7     Istinic, Gornje Jaouka [phoen] and so on.  And they signed work contracts

 8     with presidents of municipality, and they voluntarily agreed that they

 9     would receive uniforms, ID cards, and light weapons.  And in those work

10     contracts, it was clearly stipulated what were their authorities and

11     their duties in the villages in which they performed those duties.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But first of all, what was the nationality of the

13     members of the local security?

14        A.   Obviously they were of the Albanian nationality.

15        Q.   Could you tell us who organised members of the local security?

16     Yes, who organised them, let's start from that?

17        A.   Well, I spoke to my friends, my acquaintances, and we agreed that

18     it was a good idea to set up such local security.  I explained why.  I

19     explained that they could communicate better with the population there.

20     They could see what were the supplies there or that were needed, and they

21     could be mindful that the members of the KLA did not enter the village

22     and cause any conflicts with our members, which would obviously

23     jeopardise the local population.

24             And then they arranged it with local authorities in the

25     municipality of Decani, and the municipality was obliged to provide them

Page 13274

 1     with all the necessary equipment.  The equipment was indeed provided and

 2     handed over to them so that they could use it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Now that we are talking about

 5     this, I will kindly ask the Exhibit D005-0011.

 6        Q.   This is your tab 23.  Mr. Mircic, here you can see one such work

 7     contract the contract signed by Mihil Abazi from the village of Oseh

 8     Hilja, municipality of Djakovica, if I'm not mistaken.  Could you please

 9     tell me if such work contracts or contracts of employment were signed

10     with members of the local security?

11        A.   Yes, the same format of contract was also used in the

12     municipality of Decani, so we used the same form, and the procedure was

13     the same in all the municipalities in the territory of Kosovo and

14     Metohija, the same one in Decani and elsewhere, and you can see here that

15     this is the contract of employment, and you can see all the authorities

16     given to members of the local security.

17        Q.   So Article 1 stipulates their duties and obligations; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.  And they were in daily contact with us, in daily

20     co-operation.  They also conveyed new information that they had.  They

21     took care about the security of their population.

22        Q.   Did they have uniforms?

23        A.   Yes, they did.  They had uniforms and official IDs.

24        Q.   Were they armed?

25        A.   Yes.  They had light weapons, pistols.

Page 13275

 1        Q.   Who provided these arms to them?

 2        A.   The arms were handed out by the president of the municipality,

 3     the same one who signed such contracts of employment.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether members of the local

 5     security were attacked by the KLA?

 6        A.   In this period we had one attack on the family of Madjun Mucaj in

 7     the village of Gornje Luka.  He was a member of the local security for

 8     the village of Gornje Luka.  During the night, terrorist groups sneaked

 9     into the village and carried out an attack by way of firing from

10     automatic weapons onto the house and onto the gate leading into the yard

11     of Madjun Mucaj.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, looking at this contract of

13     employment in Article 3 it says here that the co-ordinator of local

14     security would have an ID.  Did such IDs exist?

15        A.   Yes, they did.

16             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] All right.  Before we move to the

17     next document, I would like to tender this one into evidence, Your

18     Honours?

19             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00916, Your Honour.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see D008-4785.

22        Q.   Which is your tab 24.  Mr. Mircic, here we can see a copy of an

23     ID which reads "local security".  Are you familiar with this, and is this

24     what these IDs looked in the territory of Decani OUP?

25        A.   Yes.  One can clearly see that such IDs were used by members of

Page 13276

 1     the local security, and the text was in both Albanian and Serbian, not

 2     just in one language.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this be

 5     admitted into evidence.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00917, Your Honour.

 8             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] D005-0015, which is tab 25 in your

 9     binder, Mr. Mircic.  Could we see that document now, please?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the same one.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Mircic, here we can see an ID of local security, but we have

13     the second page here as well.  And on the second page it says that the

14     bearer of the ID is authorised to work to secure infrastructure.

15        A.   The authorities that he has, the powers that he has.

16        Q.   Yes.  That he can bear weapons?

17        A.   Yes, these are the authorities, or rather, the powers that

18     members of local security had.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, could

20     this be admitted into evidence as well.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00918, Your Honour.

23             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now D005-0001.

24        Q.   Which is your tab 26.  Mr. Mircic, this is a list of local

25     police, Djakovica municipality, listing the first and last names of

Page 13277

 1     persons, the village that they were from, their citizen registration

 2     number, and the weapons that was issued to them with the number.  Are you

 3     familiar with such lists, and did they exist in your municipality?

 4        A.   Yes, they certainly existed.  These are the records kept by

 5     Decani municipality just like all other municipalities in Kosovo.

 6        Q.   And these lists that you saw for Decani municipality, did they

 7     have the same information about weapon, uniform, and the village that the

 8     person was from?

 9        A.   Yes, certainly.  All of the information for persons who were on

10     the local security was recorded.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, could I

12     tender this into evidence as well.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It would be Exhibit D00919, Your Honour.

15             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded with

16     a topic, and I would move to another one but seeing that it's time for

17     the break, perhaps it would be better to have our first break now.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Yes, we'll have the first break.  We

19     will resume at 11.00.  A Court Officer will assist you during the break.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13278

 1             Could we now see D007-0208.

 2        Q.   That is your tab 27.  Mr. Mircic, this is a criminal report dated

 3     28 September 1998.  It was filed by the secretariat in Djakovica because

 4     the injured persons who are listed in this criminal report were the

 5     victims in this event whose perpetrators are not known.

 6             The criminal report on page 3 states that their bodies were found

 7     after they were beaten and tortured in a location where the Locanska

 8     Bistrica canal links up with Radonjicko lake.  That this is where their

 9     bodies were found.  So my question so to you is, do you you know about

10     this event described in this criminal report, and if so, can you tell us

11     what is this about?  So for the sake of the transcript, I said the

12     Radonjicko lake.

13        A.   Yes, I know about this criminal report, and I know about the

14     event in that area near Radonjicko lake and the canal which passes

15     through the entire territory of Decani municipality, which empties the

16     river into Radonjicko lake, and it is located in the territory between

17     Djakovica and Decani.  We spoke earlier about the village of Glodjane

18     where there was a prison where Serbs were held and that that prison was

19     run by Ramush Haradinaj.  Their bodies were found there in that canal at

20     the place where the canal flows into the lake.  This is where the bodies

21     of the victims were found, the victims were of Serb ethnicity, and they

22     had been tortured and killed, shot dead by KLA members.  Their bodily

23     remains were found there.

24        Q.   Mr. Mircic, upon examining of this criminal report, we can see

25     that there are some Albanians mentioned there too, the first five are

Page 13279

 1     Serbs, but then several names afterwards, Hota Isufi and so on are

 2     Albanians.  Are they indeed Albanians?

 3        A.   Yes, Albanians but of Catholic faith.  They were persons from

 4     Djakovica municipality who were members of some local security.  There

 5     were Roma there as well, persons of Roma ethnicity who were taken to that

 6     prison and tortured and eventually killed by the KLA.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, I tender

 8     this into evidence.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, I also have some

10     information about witnesses who have survived, people who had been taken

11     to be shot by the KLA and survived, shot by Ramush Haradinaj.

12             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Continue.

14        A.   Well, we received information after the departure of the -- of

15     KFOR that some Albanians had been shot by the KLA, and those were the

16     Albanians who had been in contact with the state security service and

17     public security service who were loyal citizens.  Sinan Musaj [phoen] and

18     Muriqi [phoen] who escaped from the execution site, we received

19     information from him that was in Dasinovci village near Decani.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have this

22     admitted into evidence, please.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00920, Your Honour.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  D008-0584, please.

Page 13280

 1        Q.   This is your tab 28.  Mr. Mircic, this is the analysis of the

 2     work of Djakovica SUP OUP Decani for the period August to September 1998.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page 3 in both

 4     versions, please.

 5        Q.   The heading is "Crime" and then in paragraph 2 it says that all

 6     crimes that were committed in August were committed by unidentified

 7     perpetrators under Article 125, entitled "Terrorism."  And that a result

 8     of those events a number of policemen were killed.  Then they go on to

 9     say that on the 2nd of August, 1998, a terrorist attack was carried out

10     against MUP members in the village of Prilep and that two MUP members

11     were killed and a number of them sustained serious or slight injuries.

12     Then on the 9th of August, 1998, an attack was carried out against MUP

13     members in the village of Prilep as a result of which four members of MUP

14     were killed and a number of them injured gravely or slightly.

15             So, Mr. Mircic, we saw that in two attacks in the village of

16     Prilep six MUP members were killed in August only, August of 1998.  So

17     what can you tell us about the events in the village of Prilep in that

18     period of time?

19        A.   I mentioned earlier that there were attacks in the area of the

20     village of Prilep, and I can confirm that there was a very important KLA

21     stronghold there and that on that road, the main road between Decani and

22     Djakovica, terrorists repeatedly attacked policemen, police check-points

23     and so on especially in the village of Prilep, as I have mentioned

24     earlier.  That area was of great strategic importance for the KLA members

25     because that area enabled them to bring in weapons from Albania and take

Page 13281

 1     them to the mountain area and to the village of Junik.  This is why they

 2     worked so hard on maintaining that corridor.

 3             And that village always had very strong presence of their forces

 4     because it was in the vicinity of Glodjane.  This is why there was

 5     serious combat there on many occasions in which there were many victims

 6     on the MUP side, among MUP members.  They used heavy mortars, hand-held

 7     rocket-launchers, heavy machine-guns, recoilless guns.  Terrorists also

 8     used explosive devices, they mined certain facilities, bridges on the

 9     river which passes through Prilep.  The river is called Locanska

10     Bistrica, so their stronghold in Prilep was linked to Rznic and Rastavica

11     villages.  This is why they had a very strong presence of their forces

12     there.  As I said, they had great interests in the area.

13             In these operations a number of facilities were damaged, that is

14     to say houses in the village of Prilep.  It's a large village, over 150

15     houses, so the area where combat took place was right next to the main

16     road, Decani Djakovica, perhaps 10 metres on either side of the road.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When you say that there were many damaged houses,

18     where were they located?

19        A.   As I've said already, close to the main road, 5 to 10 metres on

20     either side of it.  You know what Albanian villages look like, it's one

21     house to the next with tall -- with high walls around the plots, concrete

22     walls, so sometimes they resemble bunkers.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what the situation was like with the other houses

24     in the village, which were not close to the road?

25        A.   Such houses did not sustain any damage.  As I said, Prilep is a

Page 13282

 1     rather large village adjacent to Rznic and towards Rastavica so it's not

 2     a village of 10 or 15 houses but of 150.

 3        Q.   In that period when the combat casualties occurred, were there

 4     any civilians in Prilep?

 5        A.   No, there were no civilians left.  They had left the village

 6     further in the territory of Decani municipality.  One of those was also

 7     Istinic which we mentioned.  There were no civilian casualties in this

 8     village for that reason.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to the next page in both languages.  There

10     is a subtitle there:  Structure of Violations of Public Order and Law.

11     We see that in September there was one violation.  Can you offer a brief

12     comment of what we can see?

13        A.   These are standard items in such reports when reporting on the

14     situation in the field.  We can see here that no Albanian reported any

15     crimes in this period.  The brawl mentioned or the fight mentioned

16     occurred among the Serbs who were in Decani, so it was not caused by any

17     ethnic reasons.  In Decani itself, there were many Albanians, but they

18     did not leave or flee.  They enjoyed protection and left their houses in

19     a usual fashion.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation]Let's go to the next page in the

22     Serbian, and let us stay on this page in the English version.

23        Q.   It has to do with weapons and ammunition.  We have discussed this

24     in detail when we have reviewed the lists.  Is this what we were

25     discussing about the village of Istinic?

Page 13283

 1        A.   No, this is different information about smaller quantities of

 2     weapons handed over by the villagers from other villages in Decani.

 3        Q.   Can we see any mention made of 942 rifles?

 4        A.   No, no, I think it says something different.

 5        Q.   Go to the next page in the Serbian.  This is what I'm asking you

 6     about.

 7        A.   Yes, yes, I can see.  This is all from Istinic.  This is part of

 8     the regular report for that period.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to the last paragraph, Disciplinary

10     Liability.  We see that there was one report for breach of discipline in

11     September.  What was it about?

12        A.   Yes, this was an officer from the OUP, assistant commander

13     Mr. Jukic who committed a grave breach of discipline as well as the crime

14     of theft.  We found in his possession a number of vehicles and tractors

15     in his courtyard.  He was suspended from work, and a criminal report was

16     filed against him as well as disciplinary procedure initiated against

17     him.  He was suspended from work immediately.

18        Q.   Did you treat all those of whom you learned had committed a crime

19     in this same fashion?  Please wait before answering so that the

20     interpreters could catch up.

21        A.   Very well.  We always followed up in such cases when the conduct

22     of MUP members was concerned.  Whenever we learned that they had

23     committed a crime or a misdemeanour, adequate measures were taken in

24     keeping with the Law on the Interior.  I just wanted to add something

25     while we are discussing the issue of disciplinary liability.

Page 13284

 1             In 1998 we took measures in a case involving four persons who

 2     were murdered.  Sloba Jovanovic, a Serb from Decani municipality, from

 3     Decani itself, committed the murder of four persons, that is to say, of

 4     two families who were in an apartment building in Decani.  These were

 5     elderly people.  I know that one family name was Barjaktari, and I can't

 6     recall the other last name.  I don't want to speculate.

 7             He did this in an illegal way.  We received certain information.

 8     We carried out a full on-site investigation and other investigative

 9     measures ascertaining that this was a very serious crime.  Through

10     operational work and by application of other measures, we discovered the

11     perpetrator.  We brought him in and handed him over to the competent

12     investigating judge of the district prison in Pec.  Detention was

13     pronounced and in further proceedings he was sentenced to 15 years of

14     imprisonment.

15             In 1999 the proceedings were conducted in Leskovac outside

16     Kosovo.  The whole case was heard there, and he received 15 years in

17     prison.  Our state and our service never tried to cover up such instances

18     or to show them as being something completely different to what they

19     actually were.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I seek to tender this

21     document.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00921, Your Honour.

24             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Mircic, did you know that in October 1998 there was an

Page 13285

 1     agreement signed between Mr. Holbrooke and Milosevic by which verifiers

 2     were to be introduced into the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

 3        A.   Yes, I am familiar with that.  As I said, I was aware of that

 4     agreement.

 5        Q.   Did you have any contact with the verifiers?

 6        A.   Yes.  As far as I recall, we received instructions by way of a

 7     dispatch.

 8        Q.   We'll see that.  But before that, I wanted you to tell me

 9     something about the following:  What kind of relationship did you have

10     with the verifiers, and what was the relationship like between the

11     verifiers and the KLA?

12        A.   We had a fair and good co-operation with all verifiers who came

13     to see me.  They were welcome, and we always had good discussions.  I

14     believe our co-operation in the field was quite good.  As for the

15     relationship of members of the monitoring mission and the KLA, we had

16     information which indicated that the verifiers were biased in favour of

17     the KLA terrorist groups.  Operational information confirmed our belief

18     because it was confirmed that they provided the KLA with information

19     about our forces and positions, et cetera.  In a way, they provided

20     logistical support to them.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] Could we please see P1041.

23        Q.   It is your number 29.  This is a dispatch of the ministry staff

24     in Pristina.  Under A we see this:

25             "In accordance with item 1/8 of the agreement the mission has the

Page 13286

 1     status of a diplomatic body.  In connection with this, mission members

 2     should be treated in the manner prescribed."

 3             Are you familiar with this dispatch?

 4        A.   Yes, I am.  This was an instructional dispatch on how to treat

 5     OSCE mission members advising us of their diplomatic status and the

 6     necessity to treat them fairly and provide them with the conditions

 7     necessary for their work.  We followed this through.

 8        Q.   Have a look at the next page under B.  We have reporting and

 9     informing.

10        A.   Yes, this mentions urgent and daily reports submitted according

11     to previously ordered measures.  This has to do with the dispatches we

12     saw which preceded this one with the information about what those

13     measures were.  We had daily information on the KLA.  There were

14     provocations and fire being opened at MUP members.  Each terrorist attack

15     was referred to as well as the location and time.  This was kept in the

16     duty officer's log-book in the SUP of Djakovica.  And in Djakovica, they

17     compiled and collated all information received from the field sending it

18     on to the staff and minister.  This was the line of reporting.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we next see Exhibit

21     D008-0478.

22        Q.   Just for the sake of transcript, can you tell me how did this

23     line operate that you talked about, as it's slightly different in the

24     transcript than you told us.

25        A.   I will tell you.  All police members who were at certain

Page 13287

 1     locations on the ground and who were attacked by the KLA, whether these

 2     were provocations or attacks, would report the duty service of the OUP

 3     Decani about the area where that happened.  The head of shift of the duty

 4     service of the Decani OUP was obliged to submit all the information to

 5     the head of the shift of the OUP Djakovica, and the head of shift of the

 6     Djakovica SUP would directly inform the staff and the staff would inform

 7     the minister.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now we can see the Exhibit D008-0478.  It is your tab

 9     30.  It's a dispatch from the Djakovica SUP sent to the staff.  Could we

10     please see the next page in the version --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic, you've given two different numbers at

12     lines 2 and 14.  0478 or 7408, which would you like?

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the first one I said,

14     D008-0478, and that is the document which we can see on the screens.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Mircic, under your tab 30 you can see in item 2 that it's a

18     dispatch of the 27th of March, 1999, sent to the MUP staff in Pristina.

19     Item 2 mentions terrorist acts for the 27th of March in Ljumbarda

20     village, Decani municipality, in the period of 11.00 and then 1545 hours.

21     So this is already a moment when the NATO bombing campaign over the

22     territory of Serbia had started.  Can you tell us if this reflects the

23     security situation on the ground in that period?

24        A.   Yes.  That was a regular report in the case of NATO aggression

25     which started on the 24th of March, and in accordance with the

Page 13288

 1     instruction dispatch, we reported about events, the damage inflicted,

 2     about those who were injured, and all the other information that was of

 3     security interest, including terrorist attacks, provocations, everything

 4     that was interesting from the point of view of the security service.

 5     That included damaged facilities and persons who had been killed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this

 8     document into evidence.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00922, Your Honour.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see D143.

12        Q.   It is your tab 31.  Mr. Mircic, this is a dispatch from the staff

13     of the ministry in Pristina dated the 1st of April, 1999.  And my

14     question for you is, first of all, whether you are familiar with this

15     document?

16        A.   Yes, just like with the other documents.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We can see that it says here:

18             "In light of the new situation caused by the NATO bombardment and

19     in order to keep the Ministry of the Interior effectively and timely

20     informed, it is necessary that you submit ..." and then under certain

21     items some things are enumerated.  Can you please give us a short comment

22     on what is enumerated here.

23        A.   Yes, that was like the usual information.  This would be sent to

24     the secretariat and all the measures mentioned in these items would be

25     registered, would be then sent to everyone.  It was the duty service of

Page 13289

 1     the SUP Djakovica, then they would send it to the staff, and the staff

 2     would send it to the minister.  That was the usual reporting line.

 3        Q.   Thank you, but please focus on page 2 of this document now, so

 4     could we please see page 2 in both versions.  And under item 4 it says,

 5     Albanians and persons of other nationalities who have fled the autonomous

 6     province of Kosovo and Metohija, and certain things are ordered there.

 7     Before you tell me anything about that, my first question for you is,

 8     were you born in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

 9        A.   Yes, I was, as I said at the beginning.  In Decani municipality,

10     I spent my whole life there and my whole career in the Decani

11     municipality with Albanians.  I had many friends, colleagues, people with

12     whom I engaged in sports, socialised, and so on and so forth.  Maybe I

13     forgot to say that I also worked in the municipal court in Decani for ten

14     years.  That was before I began working for the -- for the Serbian MUP.

15     I had many friends among ethnic Albanians.  I visited their homes, I

16     attended their wedding and mournings and whatever the occasion was, I was

17     always there together with them in restaurants in the streets, we always

18     had contact, we always worked well together, and no one ever paid any

19     attention to whether you were an ethnic Albanian or an ethnic Serb.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell me as for the period that we are

21     discussing now, that is the year 1999, did ethnic Albanians but also

22     Serbs and Montenegrins leave the territory of Decani?

23        A.   Yes, that's a well known fact that both the Serbs and

24     Montenegrins and ethnic Albanians would leave the territory of Decani and

25     the municipality of Decani because they feared for themselves, they were

Page 13290

 1     worried about the fate of their families.  Serbs mostly left in the

 2     direction of Serbia or Montenegro, whereas Albanians would also leave in

 3     the directions of Montenegro, Macedonia, or Albania.  They were afraid

 4     for their lives, and they were afraid for their families because the war

 5     operations were going on between the KLA and the MUP, and they did not

 6     want to find themselves between these forces and under fire.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, did you see refugees from other areas in

 8     Kosovo and Metohija who were possibly passing through the territory of

 9     Decani?

10        A.   Yes.  We can say that from Pec through Istok and Klina these

11     areas are connected by a road leading to Djakovica, and I was in a

12     position to see long convoys of people, Albanians.  I talked about them,

13     what were the reasons why they were leaving, what was the problem.  I

14     tried to persuade them to stay in a nice and cultured manner, but they

15     would always tell me, well, now, the NATO bombing is underway, there are

16     also terrorist KLA groups who are in conflict with the police and army

17     members and we do not feel safe.  That was their response, so we could

18     not violently stop anyone or prevent anyone from exercising their rights

19     to do what they wanted to do at the moment.

20        Q.   Tell me, can you speak Albanian?

21        A.   Yes, I can speak it, I can write, I can read, I can translate.

22        Q.   So when you talk to these ethnic Albanian refugees, what did they

23     tell you?  What were the reasons for which they were leaving the

24     territory?

25        A.   They even mentioned as reasons that the KLA was exercising

Page 13291

 1     pressure against them in order to create convoys and to produce some kind

 2     of humanitarian catastrophe, humanitarian disaster.  They were also

 3     distributing leaflets, and they tried to spread panic among the

 4     population by using misinformation.  They claimed that the Serbian forces

 5     were carrying out aggression against civilians in order to place that in

 6     the international media.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mircic, do you know what was the per cent of Serbs and

 8     Montenegrins who left Decani during March, April, and May of 1999?

 9        A.   I can tell you that as the number of Serbs and Montenegrins at

10     the time, as I said earlier, was around 700 individuals, including women,

11     children, the elderly, and the younger people, I can tell you that the

12     entire population left the area except for the able-bodied men who were

13     engaged with the army or with the MUP.  Of course the monks also stayed

14     there, they did not leave the Visoki Deci monastery.

15        Q.   Mr. Mircic, do you know how many Serbs are living in Decani

16     today?

17        A.   There is not a single Serb living in Decani today except for the

18     monks, let me repeat that once again.  These are the brethren of the

19     monastery Visoki Deci.  There are about 30 of them.  They welcome

20     visitors and receive them and for the time being they are being protected

21     by KFOR.  These are the Italian units of KFOR.

22        Q.   Please tell me, did you have any information that some inhumane

23     measures were used in your territory?

24        A.   Yes, depleted uranium was used during the NATO bombing campaign.

25     These were bombs that created huge craters and were very destructive.

Page 13292

 1     They contained depleted uranium.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit D698.

 4        Q.   It is your tab 32.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mircic, this is a document that represents the contents of a

 7     leaflet.  Are you aware that leaflets of this kind were to be found in

 8     the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, and if so, could you tell us

 9     anything about that?

10        A.   Yes.  I am aware of that.  Leaflets of this kind were thrown

11     around in all areas of Kosovo and Metohija including the Decani

12     municipality among the Albanian population.  The KLA was doing that.  The

13     terrorist groups of the KLA or UCK in Albanian.  I see here before me

14     this pamphlet which I have seen earlier.  We can even read it in Albanian

15     or I can translate it.  It calls on -- we call on you to evacuate

16     temporarily from the territory of the Republic of Kosovo as they are

17     already calling it at the time, which is dangerous at the moment.  And

18     the reason are the occupying Serbian forces.

19             It then goes on to say that their army, the KLA that is to say,

20     is not able to protect them because it does not have sufficient forces.

21     Therefore, they instruct them to begin moving in the direction of Albania

22     and Macedonia en masse.  There were even people who were assigned to

23     spread this kind of propaganda among the people.  The KLA would send them

24     out and the leaflet says we have NATO support and we shall win

25     eventually.  So that they would not be responsible in front of their

Page 13293

 1     people, they are telling them to keep moving out of the territory of

 2     Kosovo and Metohija so that they would protect their own lives, their own

 3     people, that is to say.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please see the

 5     document D008-0554.

 6        Q.   Which is your tab 33.  This is a dispatch from the Djakovica SUP

 7     sent to the MUP staff in Pristina on the 29th of May, 1999.  Under item

 8     2, a terrorist attack carried out on the 28th of May, 1999, is recorded

 9     in Ljumbarda village, Decani municipality.  Certain members of the police

10     were attacked and wounded.  Does that correspond with your knowledge of

11     about the security situation in the territory of the OUP in that period?

12        A.   Yes, that happened on a daily basis, there's nothing new here.

13     This was a regular incident that never stopped, and we can see that it

14     was a DD dispatch, which means that it was a report that was urgent, and

15     this was the usual procedure, as I said earlier when I talked about

16     reporting.

17             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I tender this document

18     in to evidence, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00923, Your Honour.

21             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Mircic, do you know General Djordjevic?

23        A.   What kind of a chief would I be if I did not know General

24     Djordjevic, who was my immediate superior?  I know him officially, not as

25     a private person.

Page 13294

 1        Q.   Thank you.  When was the last time you saw General Djordjevic in

 2     the area of Kosovo and Metohija?

 3        A.   In this period, I mean 1998, that was when we really did a big

 4     operation in the area of Istinic village.  That was really exemplary, an

 5     exemplary operation.

 6        Q.   Did you ever see General Djordjevic in the territory of Kosovo

 7     and Metohija in the year 1999?

 8        A.   No.  I never saw him in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija

 9     again.

10        Q.   Mr. Mircic, did you ever in 1998 or 1999 see or hear that there

11     was any kind of plan or agreement within the Ministry of the Interior by

12     which the Albanian population in Kosovo and Metohija would be expelled

13     from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

14        A.   I never saw any such plan, nor did I ever hear about that, nor do

15     I believe that anything like that existed.  That was never the goal of

16     the security forces to do something like that with the members of the

17     ethnic minority, Albanian ethnic minority.

18        Q.   Did you ever during 1998 or 1999 see or hear that there was any

19     kind of plan or agreement within the Ministry of the Interior by which

20     the Albanian population would be expelled from Kosovo and therefore the

21     ethnic composition of the Albanian population in Kosovo would be changed?

22        A.   No, never.

23             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This was the last

24     question in my examination-in-chief.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

Page 13295

 1             Ms. Kravetz.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mircic.

 5        A.   Good morning, respected madam prosecutor.

 6        Q.   I want to go back to your evidence from yesterday.  Yesterday and

 7     also today you've spoken about your role as a chief of the Decani OUP and

 8     you told us that you held that position both in 1998 and 1999 and that

 9     your direct superior was the SUP chief from Djakovica; is that correct?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And you've indicated that the SUP chief was called Kovacevic?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Do you recall his full name, Mr. Kovacevic's full name?  Only if

14     you remember.

15        A.   Perhaps I'll be able to recall it later but not at this moment.

16     I just remember his last name, Kovacevic.  It's been quite awhile and

17     perhaps I forgot.

18        Q.   That's fine.  It doesn't matter.  Was Mr. Kovacevic chief of the

19     Djakovica SUP both in 1998 and 1999?

20        A.   As far as I recall, he was appointed in mid-1998 and, yes, he was

21     in the same position throughout 1999.

22        Q.   You told us yesterday also that your OUP had about 80 P status

23     personnel.  I take it that by 80 P status personnel, you mean

24     professional status personnel?

25        A.   No, that is under the staffing scheme of the MUP of Serbia.  We

Page 13296

 1     had 11 --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  111.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] As per scheme, there should have

 4     been 180, but there were also OSL personnel, meaning authorised official.

 5     So P personnel were uniformed policemen carrying out their regular tasks

 6     in keeping with the Law on the Interior and the rules of service.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:

 8        Q.   And if I understood your evidence correctly, in 1999 you had

 9     about 80 of them?  80 P status personnel in your OUP in Decani?

10        A.   Correct.  In -- with two substations in Junik and Rznic.  These

11     were two substations which formed part of the Decani unit.

12        Q.   Just to correct the transcript, you mentioned there were two

13     substation, one in Junik and the other one is in which locality, could

14     you repeat it?

15        A.   The village of Rznic.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And you also said yesterday that you had some

17     reservist in your OUP, and you said given the number of population in the

18     municipality of Decani, you had very few of them but there was some

19     reservists in your OUP; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, when you say given the number of population in the

22     municipality of Decani, do you mean given the number of Serb population

23     in the municipality?

24        A.   No, I had in mind the overall population.

25        Q.   So did the number of reservists that were incorporated in police

Page 13297

 1     stations like yours depend on the number or the size of the population in

 2     a certain municipality?

 3        A.   Yes.  Since the army had its reservists.

 4        Q.   And these reservists that were incorporated in your OUP, did they

 5     have some sort of police or military training that they had undergone

 6     before being incorporated in your OUP?

 7        A.   For one to be a member of the reserve force, one must have had

 8     served their military term.  That's one of the preconditions.  No

 9     training, however, was undertaken when engaged in certain conditions.

10     They only performed their regular duties of the police alongside

11     active-duty members.  Reservists never acted independently.  They were

12     there merely as a reinforcement to bring up staffing levels given that we

13     had too few members of the regular force.

14        Q.   So if I understand your evidence correctly, reservists carried

15     out the same functions as regular policemen only that they did not act

16     independently, they were always accompanied by a regular police officer

17     in carrying out their duties?

18        A.   Exactly so.

19        Q.   Were they issued the same type of uniforms and weapons and

20     equipment that regular police officers had?

21        A.   Yes, they were.

22        Q.   And would these -- you've said that they were brought in to the

23     police force to reinforce or bring up staffing levels.  I take it that

24     this is something that did not only happen in your OUP but also in other

25     police stations in other municipalities?  This wasn't something specific

Page 13298

 1     to your OUP that you had reservists in your police force; correct?

 2        A.   That is correct.  This was not something specific to us alone.

 3     The same thing applied across all the organisational units of the

 4     Ministry of the Interior.

 5        Q.   You said that these persons would have been persons that had

 6     received some sort of military training previously.  Would they generally

 7     be a bit older in age than regular police officers or active-duty police

 8     officers from your OUP?

 9        A.   We always tried to have younger reservists.  We also wanted to

10     pick them out of a number of those who had served their military sentence

11     so that they had undergone some sort of military training or military

12     police training.

13        Q.   And so these would be persons who were picked out from the local

14     community?  They would be original to the Decani municipality, these

15     reservists who would be called up to reinforce your police force?

16        A.   Yes.  It wasn't only Serbs who were reservists, there were also

17     Albanians, members of the reserve force.

18        Q.   Yes, my question was whether they would be from the municipality?

19        A.   Yes.  Solely from the municipality because the regulations said

20     that you couldn't engage persons from other municipalities.

21        Q.   You've also mentioned during the course of your evidence several

22     times that you were a member of the collegium of the SUP in Djakovica;

23     correct?

24        A.   I didn't quite understand your question, a member of the

25     collegium you said?

Page 13299

 1        Q.   Let me rephrase the question.

 2        A.   Did you mean -- did you mean that I was a member of the

 3     collegium?  Whether I was one?

 4        Q.   Yes, during the course of your examination by my colleague you

 5     were shown a series of documents sent by different officials from the

 6     MUP, and you indicated several times that you were shown these documents

 7     or you became acquainted with these documents during meetings of the

 8     collegium of the Djakovica SUP, so what I was asking was just for you to

 9     confirm whether that was the case, that you were a member of the

10     collegium of the Djakovica SUP?

11        A.   I will explain this for you so that you become more familiar with

12     this issue.  Djakovica SUP had Decani OUP as an organisational unit.  And

13     I, as chief of the OUP by virtue of my position, belonged to the

14     collegium of the Djakovica SUP.  So whenever the chief of the secretariat

15     found it necessary to convene a collegium meeting, then it would be

16     convened, and we would come to that meeting where he informed us of any

17     documents that had arrived, any regular reports on the work of the

18     police.  He would inform us of the security situation in our territory

19     and so on.  So those were the collegium meetings.  I wasn't the only one

20     who would attend, but chiefs of various organisational units would come,

21     and it was part of their job description.

22        Q.   Okay.  So if I understand correctly, these collegium meetings

23     were attending not only by you but also by the Djakovica SUP chief and

24     the heads of various organisational units that were within the territory

25     of the Djakovica SUP?

Page 13300

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   And during the course of these meetings you've told us the SUP

 3     chief would inform you of any reports or dispatches that would arrive,

 4     and I suppose that concerned your scope of work?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That concerned my work and the work of the

 6     entire secretariat.

 7        Q.   During these meetings, would you also update the SUP chief about

 8     events in the area of your OUP?  Would you also update him on what was

 9     going on in the Decani municipality?

10        A.   As I have said earlier, the information was passed via duty

11     service, so the duty service of the Decani OUP would inform the head of

12     the shift in the Djakovica SUP on any events and the head of the SUP

13     shift would inform in turn everybody else, chief of the SUP, heads of

14     police departments about anything that may have happened in the

15     territory.

16             So it wasn't me who directly informed somebody.  No, it was

17     persons who were heads of shifts whose job description it was to pass the

18     information on.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  That's much clearer.  And with what

20     frequency were these collegium meetings held?

21        A.   The meetings were held whenever the chief found it necessary.

22     The typical procedure was to have the collegium meetings every day and on

23     some days the meetings could not be held due to the security situation,

24     and there were also occasions when I couldn't attend collegium meetings

25     due to terrorist activity that the terrorist groups conducted on the main

Page 13301

 1     road between Djakovica and the other town.  They attacked all civilians,

 2     all traffic passing on the road.  They had issued an order to their

 3     population not to use that road, not to move on that road, so Albanians

 4     never used that road.  Whenever they saw somebody on that road, they knew

 5     that that person was a Serb or of other non-Albanian ethnicity, and such

 6     persons were typically injured or killed when using that road.

 7        Q.   And on those occasions when you did not attend these daily

 8     collegium minutes [sic], how would you become acquainted or familiarise

 9     yourself with the issues that had been discussed there?

10        A.   I would receive a dispatch, and the chief of the secretariat

11     would convey that to me.

12        Q.   Okay.  So if a dispatch was discussed at these collegium meeting

13     and you had not attended, you would receive a copy of that, am I

14     understanding correctly, from the SUP chief?

15        A.   Yes.  If communication lines were operational, then I would

16     receive a dispatch, yes.  And if not, they would just call me on the

17     phone and brief me on the phone.  Sometimes we communicated via courier

18     service.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  You were shown several dispatches

20     that you mentioned were discussed at these collegium meetings, and I want

21     to go through two of them.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  The first one is D107, if we could have that up on

23     the screen.

24        Q.   So this is a dispatch that's dated 20th of October, 1998, and we

25     see it's sent by Major-General Sreten Lukic, and it's addressed to all

Page 13302

 1     SUP chiefs, and also to PJP units, SAJ, JSO, squad commanders, and if I

 2     recall your testimony correctly today you said that you had been informed

 3     about the contents of this dispatch at a collegium meeting; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   So although this is addressed to SUP chiefs, one of the

 7     instructions is that you had to compile list of informations of members

 8     who are not currently in unit for justified reasons but are entitled to

 9     some reward and it refers to rewarding PJP members, SAJ and JSO members.

10     So my question is, once the SUP chief of Djakovica would communicate to

11     you these instructions by General Lukic, then you would implement them,

12     if I understand correctly?  You would implement or carry out the

13     instructions that are carried out here -- indicated here?

14        A.   Let me clarify tis dispatch for you.  You see that this dispatch

15     says that it is sent to the chief and also to commanders of detachments

16     who were not members of SUP collegium.  And here in this dispatch, they

17     are issuing tasks, commanders of detachments and PJP units were to act in

18     accordance with this dispatch.  I was merely briefed on this dispatch.

19     It doesn't fall within my regular scope of work.

20        Q.   You did indicate earlier today that you also kept records of PJP

21     members engaged in certain tasks, and you were asked, is this dispatch in

22     line with the register you kept, and you said, yes, of course it is?

23        A.   Yes.  But when it comes to this dispatch, it is the police

24     department in Djakovica, commander of the platoon, commander of the

25     company, and the commander of the platoon within the Decani OUP who were

Page 13303

 1     the real addressees of this dispatch.  They were the ones who were

 2     supposed to keep records and so on.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we can see another one of these dispatches.

 5     This is 1202.  P1202.

 6        Q.   This is another one of the dispatches that you were shown

 7     earlier, and this one is dated 18 September 1998.  And we see the

 8     addressees on -- at the top, all SUP chiefs, the head of the MUP staff,

 9     border police stations, et cetera.  There's a series of other

10     organisational units indicated there, and in the second page which we

11     don't need to turn to right this minute says that this is signed and sent

12     by General Djordjevic.  Do you recall looking at this dispatch earlier?

13        A.   Just a minute, please.  Let me look at it.  Yes.

14        Q.   And you indicated earlier today that this was -- you were

15     familiar with this dispatch because it was also read out at the collegium

16     meeting of the Djakovica SUP; do you recall saying that?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And in this dispatch, General Djordjevic is instructing the

19     addressees to take a series of measures it says, and I'm reading

20     somewhere in this second paragraph it says, Apart from intensifying the

21     measures ordered in dispatch number 1150 of the 24th of September, 1997,

22     it is necessary do the following.  And there are a series of measures

23     that are indicated there.  You see that?

24        A.   I see only the first page.

25        Q.   This is in the first --

Page 13304

 1        A.   Well, yes, these are standard measures undertaken by MUP when

 2     assessing the newly created situation in any area.  These are normal

 3     measures that all organisational units within a secretariat should

 4     undertake.  Once we have information that there could be situations where

 5     terrorist groups could endanger vital facilities, personal safety,

 6     endanger property, and it says here facilities of vital importance, then

 7     it's normal that the MUP should undertake certain measures of operational

 8     and intelligence measure -- nature.

 9        Q.   And we see on page 1 that it refers to action plan of the Sat or

10     watch action.  If we could turn to the second page of the dispatch we see

11     this is the paragraph, almost last paragraph, we see General Djordjevic

12     instructing "start implementing the measures ordered having previously

13     updated the work plans according to the Sat action."  And then it says

14     "report to us about all interesting occurrences and events, and about the

15     realisation of the measures ordered according to the Sat action."  Do you

16     see that it says that?

17        A.   Yes, I see that.  This Sat action was not a new one --

18        Q.   Sir, I'm just asking you if you can see that up on the screen,

19     just so we don't get ahead of ourselves here.  So we see -- you've told

20     us that at this collegium meeting that you attended the SUP chief

21     informed those present about the contents of this dispatch.  And I take

22     it that following that meeting, the different members or persons

23     attending this meeting from the organisational units addressed in this

24     dispatch would have proceeded to carry out the measures that are

25     indicated in this dispatch?

Page 13305

 1        A.   Naturally, yes.  Let me now tell you about Action Sat and other

 2     actions such as Action Valuta, Action Pariz, Action Suma.  Those were

 3     typical actions undertaken by police.

 4        Q.   I'm just asking you a very precise question.  We have very

 5     limited time, and I know you have a lot of information for the Court but

 6     unfortunately we can't explore it all in so much detail.  So I don't want

 7     to interrupt you, but we just need to move on.  So you said that they

 8     would implement the instructions, those attending the meetings and were

 9     concerned by these measures would implement them once they were briefed

10     by the SUP chief, and this dispatch also instructs reporting on all

11     interesting occurrences and about how the measures had been carried out

12     in accordance with this Sat action.  So I take it that was also something

13     that was followed and implemented, that once these different members of

14     organisational units addressed by this dispatch had carried out these

15     measures, they would report on that?

16        A.   Yes, but we reported within our line of work.  That is to say, to

17     the administrations within the ministry seat.  We would inform that.  We

18     didn't inform Mr. Djordjevic about these events because he was chief of

19     the public security department.  We would inform within our line of work.

20     We would inform police administrations, and there were 11 of them, within

21     the seat of the ministry.  They were organisational units of the

22     ministry.

23        Q.   And when you would inform the different police administrations

24     and organisational units about the actions you had undertaken regarding

25     action plan of the Sat action, you would refer to this dispatch, wouldn't

Page 13306

 1     you?  You would indicate, we have carried out actions that are indicated

 2     as instructed in this dispatch number 1685?  Isn't that how you would --

 3        A.   No, we would not normally refer to the dispatch.  We would simply

 4     mention the action.  We would say action Sat, and we would send it to the

 5     Secretariat of the Interior who would then forward it within separate

 6     lines of work to the MUP of Serbia and to the staff.

 7        Q.   So you would not be, in fact, informing different police

 8     administrations, organisational units, as you said.  You would send this

 9     information directly to the Djakovica SUP who would in turn send the

10     information up the chain of command of the MUP; is that how it happened?

11        A.   Let me tell you, I was directly responsible to the chief of the

12     secretariat.  OUP, as an organisational unit, belongs to the Djakovica

13     secretariat.  So all of the reporting went via the secretariat and then

14     the secretariat would forward it on to the staff, to the MUP, and to

15     various administrations within their line of work.

16        Q.   So was the task of the secretariat in Djakovica to report on up

17     to the MUP in Belgrade about the measures that had been taken to

18     implement these instructions that were given in this dispatch, if I

19     understand your evidence correctly?

20        A.   Yes, but within their individual lines of work.  MUP is a one

21     whole, and it has various lines of work within it and various

22     administrations dealing with various affairs, with police, with crime,

23     with forensic work and so on.  And it would also be sent to the staff,

24     but not to Djordjevic directly.  There was no such information channels

25     leading directly to Djordjevic because those were minor matters that we

Page 13307

 1     did not inform Djordjevic of.  We would inform our immediate superiors of

 2     these matters.

 3        Q.   Yes, I understand what you are saying, that you would inform your

 4     immediate superiors of the actions you took.  What I was asking whether

 5     in turn the SUP in Djakovica, and I'm speaking within the scope of work

 6     of the Djakovica SUP, would in turn inform the MUP in Belgrade about the

 7     measures that had been undertaken to implement this dispatch?  Or would

 8     you not inform the public security department which was issuing this

 9     dispatch?  By you I mean the SUP in Djakovica about the measures that had

10     been taken to implement the dispatch?

11        A.   They would inform the staff, so the staff was the main body for

12     Kosovo and Metohija and then the staff in turn would inform the minister,

13     and if they found it necessary to send a circular letter, then they would

14     send it to various chiefs within their line of work.

15        Q.   And what do you mean by circular letter, if they found it

16     necessary to send a circular letter?

17        A.   Well, that kind of a letter is given to the duty service

18     directly, which exists within the DOC operations centre within the MUP.

19     And then they would compile a bulletin, bulletin within each separate

20     line of work that would inform everybody else.

21        Q.   And when this bulletin was compiled, you are saying by the MUP

22     staff, wouldn't they include also the public security department which

23     had issued the dispatch in question instructing all SUP chiefs and other

24     organisational units to undertake certain measures?  Wouldn't it be

25     logical to include the public security department in this -- such a

Page 13308

 1     communication?

 2        A.   Yes, but chiefs of crime police within various administrations.

 3        Q.   Yes, I'm just speaking about the obligations that were given or

 4     the instructions given to SUP chiefs, we are not talking about crime

 5     police here.  So I take it your answer is yes, that the public security

 6     department that specifically Mr. Djordjevic would receive a report up

 7     from the MUP staff saying that the measures -- these are the measures

 8     taken pursuant to the dispatch issued in September of 1998, dispatch

 9     number 1685?

10        A.   Well, if they found it necessary, if they found that there were

11     indeed certain problems and that there were issues of major security

12     importance, then, yes, but since this is done by crime operatives, then

13     the chief of crime police administration or chief of police within the

14     ministry seat would make the appropriate assessment concerning it.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's move on from this dispatch.  You indicated

16     yesterday that you had members of the PJP attached to your OUP?

17        A.   I indicated that yesterday and today.

18        Q.   Yes.  And you said yesterday that within your OUP there were

19     usually at the level of one platoon, if I understood correctly, that's

20     approximately 20 or 30 men, PJP members that were attached to your OUP?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And these PJP members belonged to -- or were attached to the

23     Djakovica SUP, they were members of -- they belonged to the Djakovica

24     SUP, is that what you said yesterday, if I recall correctly?

25        A.   Let me explain this for you.  When performing their regular

Page 13309

 1     duties and tasks, they belonged to the police station of the Decani OUP.

 2     When they were engaged as members of a PJP unit, then they would belong

 3     to the Djakovica SUP where a PJP company was established, so certain

 4     commanders would be also engaged within the Djakovica PJP.

 5        Q.   And do you know how large was the Djakovica PJP company?

 6        A.   A company normally has up to 100 members including the command

 7     staff, commanders of squads, commanders of platoons, and the company

 8     commander.

 9        Q.   And if I understand correctly, this company from the Djakovica

10     SUP would operate in Decani and also in Djakovica?  They would carry out

11     actions in both municipalities?

12        A.   Wherever the security situation so required, they carried out

13     actions not only in Djakovica and in Decani, but in the broader area.

14     PJP would come to Belgrade to ensure law and order there when the

15     situation so required.  But I had nothing to do with them when it comes

16     to command responsibility.  Nor did I take part in drafting plans for

17     their work, plans for their activities.  Nor did I know of their

18     activities.

19        Q.   Very well, sir, we'll get to that in a minute.  You said that the

20     members of the Djakovica PJP company operated in other areas, not only in

21     Decani and Djakovica.  Did members of other PJP companies attached to

22     other SUPs also come -- when it was required come to the Djakovica

23     municipality and carried out actions there?

24        A.   I don't know about that.  I was not informed about that, when it

25     comes to those matters.

Page 13310

 1        Q.   So you know where members of your unit, your PJP unit carried out

 2     actions, but you do not know whether members of other PJP companies from

 3     other municipalities came to Djakovica -- Decani or whether they carried

 4     out any -- participated in any actions there?

 5        A.   I don't even know where my people were engaged, and logically I

 6     don't know where other people were engaged because they were under the

 7     command of the staff, under their direct command.  Command of General

 8     Lukic.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Okay.  I see it's time for the break, Your Honours,

10     and I also see my learned colleague is on his feet, but I hadn't seen him

11     earlier, so I didn't stop my question.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question has been

14     answered, and it's time for our break, and I just had a minor observation

15     because the question of my learned friend contains something that the

16     witness had not spoken about, but in the meantime, the witness answered

17     the question so that's all I have to say.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will have the second break now and

19     resume at 1.00.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13311

 1        Q.   Sir, we were just talking about PJP units, and I wanted to go

 2     back to that.  I wanted to know if you could tell us how did the tasks

 3     that the PJP members of your OUP carry out compare with those -- you have

 4     no --

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  I think the witness has no interpretation.  Are you

 6     getting interpretation now, sir?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat because at

 8     the outset I couldn't hear.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:

10        Q.   Yes, no problem, sir.  I would like to go back to the issue we

11     were discussing before the break, PJP units.  And I was asking you how

12     the task that PJP members from your OUP carry out compare with the ones

13     that just regular policemen carried out.  Were they different, were they

14     the same, if you could tell us that?

15        A.   I think I've already explained that during my testimony.  A

16     member of the PJP is a policeman who otherwise performs his regular

17     police tasks.  PJP engagement only takes place in extraordinary

18     circumstances of natural disasters or other situations which demand

19     particular attention, otherwise people who are regular policemen perform

20     their usual tasks unless engaged in PJP units in such circumstances.

21     These are no special police members.

22        Q.   Okay.  But let me rephrase my question then.  Let's talk about

23     1998, the task carried out by members of PJP units from your OUP, were

24     they the same as regular police officers or were they different when they

25     were engaged as part of a PJP unit, I mean?

Page 13312

 1        A.   Yes, they were regular policemen engaged in certain conditions to

 2     take part in PJP activities.

 3        Q.   And what were those?

 4        A.   For example, disturbances of law and order in the area.  Natural

 5     disasters and similar situations.  For example, situations in which the

 6     integrity of the Republic of Serbia comes into question.  It's

 7     circumstances such as those.

 8        Q.   And in 1998, we are speaking specifically about Kosovo, what sort

 9     of activities were PJP units carrying out?  Members of PJP in your

10     municipality?

11        A.   I don't know that.  You would need to ask the staff about that,

12     and the commanders of companies and battalions.  So first of all, you

13     would need to speak to General Lukic, commander of the staff who decided

14     upon it.  I didn't busy myself with that, and it was not within my

15     purview.

16        Q.   Sir, yesterday when you were asked about how PJP and members of

17     PJPs were assembled and deployed on the basis of whose order, this is at

18     transcript page 67, you said, I would always be informed of their

19     engagement and deployment of the members of the PJP, Decani OUP who were

20     within the composition of the Djakovica SUP.  Do you remember saying

21     that?  I'm referring to line 12 of -- I don't have --

22        A.   That is correct, yes.  Being informed was a different thing and

23     knowing what part of what unit they made, but I wasn't privy to their

24     tasks, so we have to distinguish between the two different situations.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  I see my learned colleague is on his feet.

Page 13313

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  I can watch that, thank you.  Mr. Popovic.

 2             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question that was

 3     put given that it was without a reference -- well, the witness never

 4     mentioned any deployments.  He did mention members being sent to certain

 5     tasks, but nothing of this sort was uttered by the witness.  If I'm

 6     mistaken I stand to be corrected, and I would kindly ask for a reference.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  And the reference is at transcript page 67 of

 8     yesterday's transcript.  Unfortunately the version of yesterday's

 9     transcript that I have in e-court does not have updated transcript pages,

10     and this is lines 12 to 14 of page 67 that I'm referring to.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  And the witness referred to deployment twice in

13     that passage.

14        Q.   Now, sir, you also said, and this is the following page,

15     transcript page 68, that when the unit returned after completing their

16     tasks, the chief of the police substation would inform about this and you

17     would receive a copy.  Do you remember saying that yesterday, sir?

18        A.   Yes.  Informing, it means that that part of the unit, platoon,

19     returned from the field and were supposed to go back to their regular

20     duties.  This was nothing out of ordinary.  If they were sent to address

21     the services of law and order, they would be dispatched to perform their

22     task and then go back to their police station in Decani where they were

23     answerable to the police station commander.

24        Q.   Now, you've told us several times now that you had no knowledge

25     of the activities or the tasks, specific tasks that the PJP units of your

Page 13314

 1     OUP were engaged with.  I take it, sir, that you were aware of the fact

 2     that they were engaged in actions against the KLA, that much you knew?

 3        A.   All those PJP units certainly took part in actions against the

 4     KLA.  This is no secret.

 5        Q.   You've told --

 6        A.   But I didn't know in what area they were engaged or on the basis

 7     of what plan, and who sent them there.  This was not a part of my work to

 8     now.

 9        Q.   Sir, you've told us today that you've always had detailed

10     information from intelligence sources about the KLA.  Do you remember

11     saying that?  This is at page 8 of today's transcript.

12        A.   Well, yes, I can say so.  I had lots of information.  I could

13     spend a week here talking to you about the way the KLA was created and

14     carried out its activities.  I used to work for the state security

15     service, remember, and I could go on and on about this.

16        Q.   So, sir, you are saying that you had detailed information about

17     what the KLA was doing in your municipality, but you did not know what

18     members of your OUP that were attached to a PJP unit, you did not know

19     what sort of actions they were carrying out?

20        A.   Well, one can suppose they had clashes with the terrorists, but

21     as to where they were sent, to what locations and following what plans,

22     this was not -- that was something up to me to know.  A commander didn't

23     need to know that.  They were immediately transferred under the authority

24     of the PJP, they received their new commander and units and new line of

25     subordination.  They were subordinated directly to General Lukic and the

Page 13315

 1     minister of the interior.

 2        Q.   Sir, just so we are clear, I'm not suggesting that you were the

 3     commander of a PJP unit.  I'm just trying to clarify your knowledge about

 4     their activities, so I am not suggesting that you commanded them.

 5             What I don't understand, sir, is how you could have so much

 6     detailed information about activities of the KLA and clashes that

 7     occurred but not know where the PJP members of your OUP were carrying out

 8     activities.  That doesn't make much sense, does it, sir?

 9        A.   Of course it does because my OUP members who were transferred

10     under the authority of the PJP were not supposed to inform me.  They were

11     supposed to inform the staff, and they were completely under the staff's

12     authority.  They were supposed to inform the staff about every event

13     which took place.  The staff was the body in charge of command and

14     control of PJP members.  As for the PJP, I had -- I also had contacts in

15     the KLA, so ten years later, I can tell you how they were created, who

16     recruited them, how they were trained, what finances they received and

17     everything else.  I can tell you about their logistical support.

18     Anything that you might want to know.  I could go on for a week

19     addressing only the creation of the KLA and their finance sources,

20     training methods, how money and weapons were transferred, I can explain

21     that in detail, including all the crimes they committed in Decani

22     municipality.

23        Q.   Sir, you did not receive any information from the Djakovica SUP

24     chief about where members of PJP units would be engaged in your

25     municipality?

Page 13316

 1        A.   No, he didn't need to inform me about that.

 2        Q.   So you are saying you knew what the KLA was doing but you knew

 3     nothing else that was going on in your municipality, where there were

 4     confrontations with the police, where the police was carrying out

 5     activities?  You did not know that?

 6        A.   Well, this again brings us back to certain questions.  You are

 7     trying to tell me to tell you something which was not part of my work.

 8     All plans and engagement of forces ... I don't know where my men were,

 9     whether in this or that municipality, but this was not how it worked in

10     practice and the minister did not get into that.  He only issued

11     instructions on the establishment and functioning as well as command

12     within the PJP.  I've already tried to address that, and as for the KLA,

13     I can go on for a week and corroborate that with all evidence you might

14     need, but this a is different procedure.

15        Q.   The drawing up of plans for the prevention of terrorism, wasn't

16     that within the scope or the purview of the work of SUPs?

17        A.   Plans were sent directly to the staff.  To repeat what I said

18     already, two sectors, the public security and state security sector

19     established the staff by decision of the minister in Pristina.  It had

20     clear command structure, decision-making structure, they knew exactly who

21     drew up plans and issued orders, and you have probably been able to see

22     that yourself in the documents you have.

23        Q.   When you say plans were sent directly to the staff, by whom were

24     they sent to the staff?

25        A.   I didn't say that plans were sent directly to the staff but were

Page 13317

 1     created by the staff, in the staff.

 2        Q.   And in order to create plans for the actions that were going to

 3     be carried out within the different municipalities, didn't the staff

 4     require the input of the SUPs, specifically of SUP chiefs?

 5        A.   It didn't necessarily have to be like that.  I've already told

 6     you that David Gajic from the security service was deputy head of the

 7     staff, and they engaged in operative work.  Based on such information and

 8     based on their assessments, they drew up plans which I didn't see.  I'm

 9     not familiar with those.  Therefore, I can't tell you of anything that I

10     wasn't privy to.

11        Q.   So you are saying that the plans that were drawn up by the MUP

12     staff were based on information that only came from the security service?

13     Wasn't there also an input from the SUPs?

14        A.   Well, there probably were other sources from other services.

15     It's not only the state security.  You probably know that there was

16     public security service and others, but most of it was in terms of

17     collecting data by intelligence work, and this fell within the scope of

18     the services I referred to.  It is the state security sector who engaged

19     in that primarily.

20        Q.   So you are not aware of SUPs being requested or required to draw

21     up any plans for combatting terrorism in the respective municipalities by

22     the MUP staff?  You are not aware of that happening?

23        A.   I don't know that.  No one asked me to do anything of the sort

24     within my OUP.

25        Q.   Well, let me show you a document, sir.

Page 13318

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could have P689 up on the screen.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:

 4        Q.   And these, sir, are the minutes of a meeting at the MUP staff in

 5     Pristina held on the 2nd of December, 1998.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could go to the next page, page 3, I believe,

 7     on both English and B/C/S.

 8        Q.   So we see there the list of those present, and it includes all

 9     chiefs of SUPs and the commanders of the detachments, and we see General

10     Lukic there along with other officers; do you see that, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  There were others meaning members of PJP detachments,

12     commanders of those.  This is what you omitted.

13        Q.   That's what I just said.  Chiefs of SUPs, and just to correct the

14     transcript at line 10, it's SUP and commanders of detachments.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Now, if we could go to page 4, and it's the middle

16     of the page in the B/C/S and in the English it's the bottom of page 4.

17        Q.   So we see here on this page, sir, that the different SUP chiefs

18     are reporting on their activities.  If we could scroll down in the

19     English.  And we see on your screen in the B/C/S it's somewhere toward

20     the lower half of the page, we see that the Djakovica SUP chief who is

21     identified here as deputy chief Kovacevic is reporting about activities,

22     and he reports not only about the situation in sector -- well, he reports

23     about the situation in the sector of the Djakovica SUP and also about

24     terrorist attacks and provocations specifically in the areas of Glodjani

25     and Decani.  Do you see that, sir?

Page 13319

 1        A.   Yes, I see that.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Now, if we could go to page 5, bottom in the B/C/S

 3     and page 6 in English.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I comment on this, on this

 5     meeting?

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:

 7        Q.   In a minute I'll let you comment, sir.  If we could just move on

 8     to page 5 bottom in the B/C/S simply to show you, and it's page 6 in the

 9     English, that at the conclusion of this report, we see Major-General

10     Sreten Lukic giving -- he speaks, and he gives a number of instructions

11     which continue on the next page.  Do you see that, sir, that's at the

12     bottom of your page in the B/C/S, General Lukic speaks?  Do you see that,

13     sir?

14        A.   I don't see it.

15        Q.   Right in the bottom.

16        A.   It Blagoje Pesic or further up the page?

17        Q.   Right below Blagoje Pesic.

18        A.   Major-General Sreten Lukic, yes, I see it.

19        Q.   Now, if we continue to page 7 in the B/C/S and page 8 in the

20     English, this is the continuation of General Lukic's instructions.  He

21     provides -- he issues a series of tasks at the conclusion of this

22     meeting.  You see that?  And what I'm looking for is on the next page.

23     Page 8 in the -- yes.

24             And at the conclusion of this meeting we see that General Lukic

25     says:  "By 7 December 1998 you need to submit a plan for the prevention

Page 13320

 1     of terrorism, which in principle should contain:"  And there are eight

 2     points of the information that needs to be included in that plan.  You

 3     see that, sir, that --

 4        A.   I see it.

 5        Q.   General Lukic is tasking those present with the preparation of a

 6     plan for the prevention of terrorism?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, I want to move on to a related document, and this is P1043.

 9     And this is a meeting of the MUP staff which takes place some weeks later

10     on 21st, December, 1998.  And it will come up on your screen shortly.  We

11     see on the first page the list of attendees.  This one includes MUP

12     minister Stojiljkovic and also General Obrad Stevanovic, General Lukic,

13     and we see at the bottom that all chiefs of SUP and also commanders of

14     PJP detachments are there.  Do you see that, sir?  I believe we have that

15     also on the B/C/S, on the screen.

16        A.   Yes, I can see it.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  Now, if we can go to page 3 in the B/C/S and page 5

18     in the English.  And it's the bottom of the page in both languages.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:

21        Q.   And here we have the Djakovica SUP chief Kovacevic again

22     reporting on the activities in his SUP area, and he says:

23             "The police undertook an operation to sweep the terrain in the

24     Glodjani village sector and drove away some 50 to 60 terrorists from it

25     and killed two."  Then he says:  "We adopted a plan to combat terrorism,

Page 13321

 1     and it is mostly being carried out."

 2        A.   Yes, do you want me to comment?

 3        Q.   This is Glodjani village, where is that located?

 4        A.   It is 10 kilometres from Decani itself in the territory of that

 5     municipality.  As for what Mr. Kovacevic said, he was in the wider

 6     composition, the wider circle of the staff.  His report is based on the

 7     information he had received from the field as a SUP chief.

 8        Q.   And who would he have received that information from in the

 9     field?

10        A.   Well, he probably received field information from PJP members.

11        Q.   Now, we saw -- we see in that passage that he is referring to the

12     plan to combat terrorism, and he says, we have adopted it and it's mostly

13     being carried out.  This is the same plan that General Lukic had

14     instructed those present at the 2nd December meeting to prepare; correct?

15        A.   Not to prepare.  They drew up a plan and implemented it, as far

16     as I can see based on the document.  Of course, I'm not familiar with it,

17     but my interpretation is similar to yours.

18        Q.   Okay.  So this is the same plan that General Lukic instructed SUP

19     chiefs to draw up and implement at the other MUP staff meeting that we

20     saw on 2nd December; correct?

21        A.   I didn't quite understand you.  What do you mean the same plan?

22     Could you please repeat it.

23        Q.   Sir, we had just looked at the MUP staff minutes -- I mean, the

24     minutes of a MUP staff meeting of 2nd December where General Lukic

25     instructed those present to draw up a plan to combat terrorism by the 7th

Page 13322

 1     of December.  Remember we just saw that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What I'm putting to you, sir, here is that the SUP chief of the

 4     Djakovica SUP is saying that he is implementing that that plan, in fact,

 5     has been drawn up and that it's being mostly carried out.  That's what he

 6     is saying; correct?

 7        A.   I cannot claim that.  I do not control the work of the chief of

 8     the Djakovica SUP, nor did I take part in drafting the plans.  There were

 9     certain things that were done confidentially, under confidential

10     circumstances.  So I cannot tell you something I don't know.  So the

11     relationship between the chief of the secretariat and the staff is

12     something that I'm not privy to.  It was strictly confidential.  And it

13     was up to them to decide how to draw up plans, who would be doing it, at

14     which level.  I knew nothing about that.

15        Q.   So earlier, sir, when I asked you whether these plans to combat

16     terrorism were drafted with the MUP staff with input from SUPs, you

17     essentially said no, that the MUP staff acted with information from state

18     security; that's what you said, no?

19        A.   That's not exactly as you put it.  As I have told you, all plans

20     were drawn up at the staff.  All assessments were made there and then

21     orders were issued for tasks to be carried out.  You probably

22     misunderstood me.

23        Q.   Sir, what I'm asking you is whether that was done with input from

24     SUPs, and earlier you had told me no, and now you are telling me that the

25     relationship between the chief of the SUP and the staff was strictly

Page 13323

 1     confidential so you wouldn't know if they were drawing up plans; is that

 2     what you are saying now?

 3        A.   Well, I've said what I've said, and it also depended on the

 4     situation.  The situation changed from one minute to the next.  Sometimes

 5     there were unwritten rules, so it's not like the rule was written down in

 6     stone.  That's how it always had to be.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we can move on in the same document, page 6 in

 8     the B/C/S and page 9 in the English.  And just for clarity, the passage

 9     we are going to look at is -- it refers to something stated by General

10     Stevanovic, which in the English begins on the previous page.  I believe

11     in the B/C/S it's all on one page.  So if we could go to the bottom of

12     page 9, and in the -- yes.

13        Q.   And it says there, this is General Stevanovic speaking:

14             "You made plans to combat terrorism and submitted them to the

15     staff.  It is the assessment of the staff that they are mostly being

16     implemented."

17             Do you see that passage, sir?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, if we go to the next page in the English, and we are still

20     on page 6, fifth bullet point in the B/C/S, this is still General

21     Stevanovic speaking, he says -- I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice:

22             "Broader actions towards terrorist basis should be plans by the

23     ministry staff; however, the initiative should be with the secretariats

24     who should make preparations and compile recommendations of the activity

25     plan.  All plans should be based on the principles of police operation."

Page 13324

 1             Do you see that, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, I can see it very well.

 3        Q.   So isn't General Stevanovic saying here that although the plans

 4     for anti-terrorist actions are planned by the MUP staff, the initiative

 5     to do these is with the SUPs who are, in fact, better placed to know what

 6     the situation is in their area of responsibility, no?

 7        A.   Well, in my view, this is more about some pieces of information,

 8     some intelligence rather than plans.  It says here, Plans, but those were

 9     really some security assessments that the secretariats could send to the

10     staff so that they could draw up a plan on the basis of that.  That

11     wasn't a general plan.

12        Q.   Okay.  So just going back to my initial question, and following

13     up from your answer, in order for the MUP of staff to draw up plans, it

14     needed the input from SUPs who had the information of what was going on

15     on the ground; correct?  You are saying they would provide security

16     assessments, that was information required to know where to carry out

17     police actions, wasn't it?

18        A.   Well, you put it yourself, I have nothing to add.  It's as you

19     put it.  But you keep forgetting that there is also the public -- rather

20     the state security department which was within the staff, and that's not

21     something you should neglect because the state security is the

22     intelligence service, and that's something that you should never, never

23     neglect when talking about these things.

24        Q.   Sir, all I'm trying to clarify is just the role of SUPs in the

25     drawing up of these plans, that is all I am trying to clarify here.  And

Page 13325

 1     it was you who said that the secretariats, you said it says here, Plans,

 2     but those were really some security assessments that the secretariats

 3     could send to the staff.  So you are saying that the secretariats sent

 4     information to the staff from what I understand it, so that they could

 5     draw up a plan on the basis of that?  Isn't that what you are saying?

 6        A.   Well, I wasn't informed of that.  I wasn't aware of that, but it

 7     would be logical for them to make a sort of an assessment in that

 8     situation.  Let me reiterate, the state security service was the one who

 9     provided intelligence and who took part in drafting the plans because the

10     deputy --

11        Q.   Sir --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   We are not talking about the state security service, sir.  I'm

14     just bringing you back to my question which had to do with the role of

15     SUPs.  And I'm understanding that you are agreeing with me that the MUP

16     staff required information.  I'm not saying that was the only source,

17     just so we are clear, I am not saying that was the exclusive source was

18     information provided by the SUPs, but they did require chiefs of SUPs to

19     provide information in order to be able to draw plans for police actions?

20        A.   I was not aware of that.  I don't know about that.  I suppose

21     that there may have been such cases in some situations.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I see Mr. Popovic is sort of on his

23     feet, sitting back down.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, the

Page 13326

 1     witness has answered the question, but for the third time the witness --

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Popovic.  I keep

 3     having to repeat it.  It's borne out of the experience of the

 4     interventions that happened earlier in this trial.  Where a witness is

 5     not being in any way overborne, as this witness clearly is not, the

 6     witness is being allowed to answer questions.  If there is then an

 7     objection that is well-founded, we will take it into account.

 8             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  So you said that you were not aware that plans

11     drawn up by the MUP staff had any input from SUPs.  Are you saying, sir,

12     that if police actions were going to be carried out in your municipality,

13     you also did not provide any input or were requested to provide any input

14     to the Djakovica SUP as to where there were problem areas or issues that

15     needed to be addressed regarding the KLA in your municipality?  You were

16     never asked to do that?

17        A.   No, because they knew what was happening on the ground.  They had

18     intelligence available to them.  There were members of state security in

19     every secretariat, and they made their own assessments.  That was

20     something that was well known to everybody in the Djakovica SUP even

21     within the office of the police department.  So the entire area was

22     covered by terrorists and terrorist groups, and one didn't need to have

23     great knowledge and great expertise to study that in detail.

24        Q.   And your evidence, sir, is that you knew nothing about any sort

25     of police actions carried out in your municipality?  Actions carried out

Page 13327

 1     by PJP units, you knew nothing about that?

 2        A.   As I have told you, I heard that actions were being carried out,

 3     but I wasn't directly involved in them.  I wasn't involved in drafting

 4     any plans.  It was a well known fact that there were terrorist activities

 5     in the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija.  That area was inundated

 6     by terrorists and terrorist activities of a large scale.

 7        Q.   That is exactly why I'm asking the question, sir.  I mean, you

 8     were in a municipality where there was extensive action -- or there were

 9     extensive actions carried out by the police against the KLA, and earlier

10     you told us that you knew nothing of the activities of the PJP units and

11     you had nothing to do with them.  And now you are saying that you heard

12     that actions were being carried out?

13        A.   Well, I had nothing to do when it comes to command

14     responsibility.  I wasn't involved in drafting the plans.  I didn't know

15     about their scope of work and the area where they carried out that work.

16        Q.   Sir, I will tell you again just to clarify, I'm not suggesting

17     anything dealing with command responsibility.  I'm just trying to

18     understand your scope of knowledge of the police actions being carried

19     out on the ground.  And earlier you told us that you knew nothing about

20     the activities of police units, and now you are telling us that you heard

21     that actions were carried out?

22        A.   Wait a minute, I can't understand anything that I heard.  Well,

23     one could interpret it in many ways.  One could hear gun-fire in the

24     vicinity, fire from heavy artillery, heavy guns.  One could hear that

25     actions were carried out.

Page 13328

 1        Q.   So you were aware that actions were being carried out by PJP

 2     units in your municipality?

 3        A.   I did hear, but I didn't know that they were supposed to be

 4     carried out and when.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I see we've reached the end of the

 6     session.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, we must adjourn now.  We will resume tomorrow

 8     morning at 9.00.  We must adjourn now.  A Court Officer will assist you

 9     when we adjourn.

10                             [The witness stands down]

11                        --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

12                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

13                          March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.