Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13329

 1                           Wednesday, 24 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll continue with the questions this morning.

 9             Ms. Kravetz.

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you Your Honour.

11                           WITNESS:  VUKMIR MIRCIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Kravetz:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, sir.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Sir, you've told us that your first name is Vukmir.  Are you

17     known by any nickname?

18        A.   Vule.  That is my nickname, Vule.

19        Q.   Sir, do you know a man by the name of Zoran Djurisic?

20        A.   Yes, Djurisic.  It's a policeman from the Decani OUP.

21        Q.   And what sort of job did he do at the Decani OUP?

22        A.   He was a traffic policeman.

23        Q.   Now, sir, I want to take you back to your testimony of yesterday.

24     You during the course of questions by my learned colleague you referred

25     to an incident in the village of Istinic concerning the voluntary

Page 13330

 1     hand-over of weapons.  Do you recall speaking about that, sir?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you said, if I remember correctly, that this incident took

 4     place sometime in September of 1998?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   In relation to this incident, you said that you had -- and this

 7     is at transcript page 13263 -- that you had confirmed operational

 8     information that in Istinic village, Decani municipality, there were a

 9     lot of refugees from Decani and other villages and that there was a great

10     concentration of civilians, women, children, the elderly there.  And you

11     said that your assessment was that there were between 15- to 20.000

12     people gathered there at the time.  Do you recall saying that, sir?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   And on the same page you said that the reason for the large

15     concentration of civilians in Istinic at the time was that civilians

16     wanted to avoid being caught in cross-fire between the KLA and the police

17     in the general area of the municipalities of Djakovica and Decani in the

18     village of Jablanica and so on and so forth.  Do you recall saying that,

19     sir?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   The village of Jablanica, where is that located?

22        A.   The Jablanica village is located in the territory of the

23     Djakovica municipality.

24        Q.   And you are saying, sir, if I understand your evidence correctly,

25     that this large concentration of civilians, this 15- to 20.000 people

Page 13331

 1     that had gathered in Istinic, were not only from Decani but they also

 2     came from the municipality of Djakovica, from the general area of the

 3     village of Jablanica?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   At the time that this large number of civilians concentrated or

 6     gathered there in Istinic village, the police was carrying a large scale

 7     action in the general areas of Jablanica and also in the Decani

 8     municipality in the area of Glodjane; correct?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   And the aim of this action was to disarm and neutralise the KLA

11     in those areas?

12        A.   That's also correct.

13        Q.   Now, in addition to having information about there being a large

14     number of civilian in Istinic, you also had information that there was

15     KLA presence there and that there were -- they had weapons there in that

16     village?

17        A.   That's also correct.

18        Q.   Now, you told us yesterday that in September when this large

19     group of civilians was in Istinic, General Djordjevic was in the area of

20     your OUP at the time, and you said that he had come to acquaint himself

21     with the overall situation in the field as well as the work of the

22     Ministry of the Interior and its members and whether they conducted

23     themselves properly and in a fashion prescribed by the law.  Do you

24     recall saying that, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13332

 1        Q.   And you said that you had informed him about the situation in

 2     Istinic and you had proposed to tackle this problem of the fact that

 3     there were so many refugees there in a peaceful manner?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   If this issue of the fact that there were weapons in Istinic

 6     wasn't tackled in a peaceful manner, sir, isn't it correct that the

 7     police would have proceeded to -- I see you are making signs to your --

 8     are you not receiving interpretation?

 9        A.   Yes, I hear it now.

10        Q.   I'll go back to repeat my question again.

11             Sir, you said that you had proposed to tackle the problem of the

12     fact that there were weapons there and a large number of civilians in a

13     peaceful manner.  The alternative to this issue not being resolved in a

14     peaceful manner would have been for the police to go in and confront the

15     KLA and there would have been civilian casualties; correct?

16        A.   Yes, of course that was so.

17        Q.   And when you proposed to -- you presented this issue to General

18     Djordjevic, didn't you also tell him that if the police operation, which

19     was underway in the general area of Decani was to be carried out as

20     planned, and this village was, in fact, attacked by the police because

21     the terrorists were entrenched there, they would offer fierce resistance

22     and civilians would suffer?  Didn't you also say that to him?

23        A.   No, I didn't tell him that.  I just told him that the estimate

24     was that the number of the population that was there was as mentioned.

25        Q.   So you didn't tell him that if the police action that was planned

Page 13333

 1     was carried out, there would be civilian casualties?  You don't recall

 2     telling him that?

 3        A.   No, I don't recall that.

 4        Q.   I want to show you, sir, the transcript of the testimony of

 5     General Djordjevic who testified in these proceedings, and he spoke about

 6     this incident, and maybe that refreshes your memory.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we can go to transcript page 9622, and if that

 8     can be displayed on the screen.  And this is the transcript of the 4th of

 9     December.

10        Q.   Now, sir, while that is being displayed and in order not to lose

11     time I'll read the passage to you.  Mr. Djordjevic was asked -- I'm

12     looking for page 9622.  Mr. Djordjevic was asked:

13             "Did you have any direct experience or were you in the village of

14     Istinic at the time, if so, please tell us."

15             And he says, if I'm not wrong, this is on the 10th of December,

16     actually, so in mid-September -- 10th of September, actually

17     mid-September.  Yeah, I see the passage is there.

18             "At that time we had certain intelligence that in the area there

19     were civilians, and we were discussing how to return them to their homes

20     because there were people from some other villages as well.  I personally

21     wasn't present there, but I was there towards the end of September when a

22     large-scale operation was being carried out in the area from Jablanica

23     and Glodjane which were known to be strongholds of terrorists."

24             And if I scroll down it says:

25             "At the time I was in the area of the secretariats of Pec and

Page 13334

 1     Djakovica, rather, the municipal secretariat of Decani.  I'm talking

 2     about the time when one of these final operations was in progress.  I was

 3     there with the head of the section of the interior, Mircic, who informed

 4     me that he had intelligence about tens of thousands of civilians who were

 5     there in Istinic and who had come from some 20-odd villages in the area.

 6     These villagers found shelter there because of the operation that was

 7     ongoing and probably as instructed by the terrorist organisations.  He

 8     told me that if all these actions were to be carried through as planned

 9     and since the village of Istinic was sealed off, one would expect that

10     the terrorists would put up fierce resistance in the area.  And his

11     statement was, given that he was quite familiar with the situation there,

12     that in the clashes and neutralisations of their stronghold, the

13     result -- they might result in a large number of civilian casualties."

14             Does that refresh your recollection of the discussion you had

15     with General Djordjevic in relation to this operation?

16        A.   Yes, yes, because a lot of time has passed, one cannot remember

17     everything.  That was exactly what the conversation was about these

18     circumstances.  I remember every sentence.

19        Q.   So you did have information that a police operation was underway;

20     correct?

21        A.   I did not have the information that the police action was

22     underway.

23        Q.   Sir, you had information that a large-scale police operation was

24     underway in Jablanica and the general area of Decani, didn't you?

25        A.   Yes, I had that information.

Page 13335

 1        Q.   And you also knew that if this action continued, the village of

 2     Istinic would also be targeted since the KLA was also present there?

 3        A.   That was an estimate.  That was what was estimated at the time

 4     that it would be like that.

 5        Q.   Just so I understand your answer to be that, yes, you had this

 6     information that it was estimated that this is how the operation would

 7     continue, this village would be attacked since the KLA was there and this

 8     was an operation targeting the KLA; correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Now, yesterday when we were talking about police operations in

11     your area and we went over this quite a bit towards the end of the

12     session yesterday, you insisted repeatedly that you had no information

13     about any actions that were carried out in your municipality.  You, in

14     fact, said you heard shots, you heard from a distance but you did not

15     know about any actions carried out in your municipality.  Do you recall

16     saying that yesterday when I was asking you questions?

17        A.   I did not have firsthand information about the areas where the

18     operations were carried out and what operations these were.  Because

19     there were operations underway everywhere in the field, in the entire

20     territory of the municipality, so to speak, so that was no secret.  So

21     that no one would know when one heard detonations and you heard heavy

22     machine-gun fire, one could assume what was going on and in which area.

23     But nobody directly informed me about where certain operations were

24     carried out.

25        Q.   But in this specific instance that we are looking at Istinic, you

Page 13336

 1     yourself proposed to General Djordjevic that this situation of the

 2     weapons in Istinic be resolved in a peaceful manner, didn't you?

 3        A.   Well, as the concentration of the population was so great, that

 4     was the only plan we had, and we really tried to resolve it in a peaceful

 5     manner because there was a large number of civilians concentrated there,

 6     and there was the KLA as well.  They were keeping the population there in

 7     their trenches and on their barricades, so we supposed that if they were

 8     to attack the police or if there was to be a conflict with the police,

 9     that the consequences would be disastrous for the population.

10        Q.   And you made this proposal because you knew there was an action

11     underway and that Istinic would be attacked given that KLA presence

12     was -- there were KLA presence there, no?  You knew that much of what was

13     going on in Decani?

14        A.   But that was not an action carried out in Decani.  That's another

15     area.  The action was carried out in Djakovica.  So it's doubtful whether

16     the action would be carried out in Istinic or not.

17        Q.   Sir, earlier I asked you whether this large-scale police action

18     was also being carried out in the general area of Decani and Glodjani,

19     and you said yes.  Are you now telling me that there was no action being

20     carried out in Decani?

21        A.   It was, but not in Decani itself but just in the general area of

22     Decani.  It was not carried out in the village of Decani.  We had no

23     action there.

24        Q.   And I'm not suggesting that, sir, we are speaking about the

25     general area of Decani municipality, not the village of Decani, so can we

Page 13337

 1     agree, sir, that you had did have information that there was this action

 2     and that Istinic would be next given that the KLA was there, it was one

 3     of the targets of this action by the police?

 4        A.   No, I'm not aware that one of the targets or one of the goals of

 5     the action was that and that the action would continue in that particular

 6     place.

 7        Q.   But it is something that you expected and that is why you raised

 8     this issue with General Djordjevic when he came to see you in Decani OUP?

 9        A.   I just told him what the intelligence was, nothing more.

10        Q.   Sir, I just showed you earlier the transcript of the testimony of

11     General Djordjevic where he says that you advised him that if the action

12     was carried out as planned, there would be civilian casualties.  Doesn't

13     that show, sir, that you knew that Istinic was a potential target of this

14     police action that was being carried out in Decani municipality?

15        A.   No, I didn't know that an action was planned with Istinic being

16     its target.  I just knew that in the wider area of Jablanica and other

17     places within Djakovica municipality there were actions underway.  You

18     could hear the shots.  You could hear the combat activity that was

19     underway.  But I wasn't aware of any plan.  Probably there was a plan.

20     That was necessary in order for the action to be taken out, but I wasn't

21     aware that an action was planned for the village of Istinic.  I simply

22     said that there was a possibility for an action there and that there was

23     a potential of large number of victims, casualties being inflicted.

24        Q.   Earlier when I showed you the testimony of General Djordjevic,

25     you said that you remember that conversation, that it was like that in

Page 13338

 1     every word; do you recall saying that, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, but I never said that an action was imminent.  I said if

 3     there was an action, I never said that I knew about any action.

 4        Q.   So you are saying you knew that there was a police action in

 5     Djakovica municipality and in the wider area of Jablanica and you could

 6     hear the shots from Decani town, that this was going on in Djakovica

 7     municipality?

 8        A.   Yes.  And from the area of Glodjani.

 9        Q.   And Glodjani is in which municipality?

10        A.   That is within the municipality of Decani.  That is very close to

11     Jablanica, so it's bordering the area of the municipality of Jablanica.

12        Q.   Okay.  So you had information that in these two general areas

13     there were police actions.  Now, you've told us that you propose to

14     tackle this problem in a peaceful manner.  Where did this discussion take

15     place with General Djordjevic, this discussion about the Istinic

16     situation?

17        A.   I did not have information about actions in the area of Jablanica

18     and Glodjani.  And could you please repeat your question concerning

19     General Djordjevic.

20        Q.   Sir, we seem to either be having a translation issue here or we

21     are misunderstanding each other.  I'm putting to you that you you knew

22     that there was a general police action in the wider area of Jablanica in

23     Djakovica municipality and in the general area of Glodjani in the Decani

24     municipality?  Is that correct, that you knew that was going on?

25        A.   I didn't know about that, and I'm not sure what is your

Page 13339

 1     foundation for this claim.

 2        Q.   My foundation is --

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Someone keeps turning off my headphone, I would

 4     request I don't know why that's happening, if that could stop because I

 5     lose the interpretation every time that happens.

 6        Q.   Sir, my foundation is my answer to -- your answer to my question

 7     earlier when I asked you whether there was a police action going on

 8     underway in Jablanica and Glodjani and you said, yes, that is my

 9     foundation.  I asked you at the time that this large number of civilians

10     concentrated and gathered there in Istinic village, the police was

11     carrying out a large-scale action in the general area of Jablanica also

12     in the Djakovica area, and in Glodjani, correct, and you said that is

13     right; do you recall giving that answer just this morning?

14        A.   Yes, I heard about this, but I wasn't informed by anybody, and I

15     had no plan.  I never participated in drafting of any plan.  I simply

16     heard detonations, I heard that combat activities were underway.

17        Q.   Sir, I'm not putting to you that you participated in the drafting

18     of a plan, I'm just trying to ascertain your knowledge about what was

19     going on in the municipality, that is all that I'm trying to establish

20     here, and your knowledge.  I'm speaking about your specific knowledge

21     about the fact that there was this large-scale operation going on.

22        A.   I didn't know about that.  It was only the staff and the

23     secretariat in that region that knew about this.  I didn't know about

24     this.  I could only assume on the basis of the direction from which I

25     could hear shots being fired and detonations, so I could assume there was

Page 13340

 1     an action going on.

 2        Q.   We seem to be going in circles, sir, with this topic really.

 3     Earlier today I asked you about this and you said that that was correct,

 4     this action was going on, and when I asked you whether the aim was to

 5     neutralise and disarm the KLA, you said that was right.  And now you are

 6     saying you did not know about that?

 7        A.   I never said I knew about it.  I said I heard about this.  I said

 8     it was underway on the basis of my assumption because I knew this area

 9     very well, and I could recognise the directions from which the

10     detonations could be heard, so I could immediately assume where the

11     combat was ongoing.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's move on from this.  And so you proposed to General

13     Djordjevic that the issue of the disarming of Istinic be carried out in a

14     peaceful manner, that is, without police intervention in order for there

15     not to be civilian casualties; correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   And I had asked earlier whether -- where the discussion with

18     General Djordjevic had taken place?

19        A.   That was sometime in the course of 1998, whether it was in

20     September, this is as much as I can recall.

21        Q.   My question was at line 17 - I see it's been incorrectly

22     transcribed - was where the discussion with General Djordjevic has taken

23     place.  Was this at the premises of your OUP, or was -- did this

24     discussion take place somewhere else?

25        A.   This was in the office of the OUP.

Page 13341

 1        Q.   And that would have been in Decani town?

 2        A.   Yes, because the OUP seat was in the town of Decani.

 3        Q.   You said that when the discussion took place, also present there

 4     was the municipal president, and I believe you said his name was Milivoj

 5     Djurkovic; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And you told us that General Djordjevic agreed with your proposal

 8     and that you followed it up?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   You also indicated yesterday that a person with some standing in

11     the community, I believe you said his name was Elis Bajlaj [phoen] was

12     sent to Istinic to negotiate this hand-over of weapons -- peaceful

13     hand-over of weapons?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And while these negotiations were ongoing there was no police

16     action against Istinic, correct, during the time that this person was

17     there negotiating with the villagers?  The police did not intervene?

18        A.   No, the police did not interfere.  Obviously if there was any

19     action underway, we could not have negotiated.

20        Q.   And later this person came back and returned and told you that

21     the KLA had agreed to voluntarily hand over weapons and they withdrew

22     from the village?

23        A.   He came back, as I said, and informed us that an agreement had

24     been made with all the respected renowned villagers of Albanian

25     nationality from all the villages in the area, so also in respect of the

Page 13342

 1     population that came there from the surrounding villages.  They agreed

 2     that they would hand over the weapons and we could implement our

 3     proposal.

 4        Q.   And you've told us, and we don't need to go into the details

 5     again, that this, in fact, was done, that there was a voluntarily -- the

 6     weapons were voluntarily handed over and that you, General Djordjevic,

 7     and also Zoran Andjelkovic later went to the village; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  We went to the village.  There was also Milivoj Djurkovic,

 9     the municipal president.

10        Q.   And [Microphone not activated] ... of this agreement that was

11     reached, the police operation that was expected to be launched or carried

12     out against Istinic did not happen?  Following this hand-over, there was

13     no police action against Istinic?

14        A.   As far as I know, there wasn't any police action in Istinic.

15        Q.   Okay.  So the police action, in fact, ended there with that

16     agreement?

17        A.   I'm not sure what you mean.  There was never any police action in

18     Istinic.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that, sir.

20             Sir, I want to move on to a different topic, and we are going to

21     move on now to 1999.  You were asked whether in 1999 ethnic Albanians,

22     Serbs, and Montenegrins left the territory of Decani, and you said, and

23     this is at transcript page 13289 and continues on the next page, that:

24             "Yes, that's a well known fact that both the Serbs and

25     Montenegrins and ethnic Albanians would leave the territory of Decani and

Page 13343

 1     the municipality of Decani because they feared for themselves, they were

 2     worried about the fate of their families.  Serbs mostly left in the

 3     direction of Serbia or Montenegro, whereas Albanians would also leave in

 4     the direction of Montenegro, Macedonia, or Albania."

 5             Do you recall saying that, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, I recall that.

 7        Q.   You were also asked, and this is on page 13290:

 8             "... did you see refugees from other areas in Kosovo and Metohija

 9     who were possibly passing through the territory of Decani?"  And you said

10     "Yes, we can say that from Pec through Istok and Klina these areas are

11     connected by a road leading to Djakovica, and I was in a position to see

12     long convoys of people, Albanians."

13             Do you recall giving that answer, sir?

14        A.   Yes, I do recall saying that, and that's correct.

15        Q.   Do you remember approximately when you began seeing this large

16     convoys of Albanian going through Decani municipality from the areas of

17     Pec and Istok, Klina that you've mentioned?

18        A.   I can't recall that precisely, which month it was.  Probably it

19     was at the beginning of the NATO bombing campaign, so after the 24th of

20     March and further on.

21        Q.   And did you see these large convoys of refugees from the

22     beginning of the NATO bombing throughout the next month, or was there a

23     period when this flow was more intense, if you recall?

24        A.   You see, we can't say that there were long convoys all the time,

25     but from time to time you could see some convoys.  I can't say that they

Page 13344

 1     were endless, but occasionally, you could see some convoys somewhere.

 2     Sometimes they were shorter, sometimes they were longer.

 3        Q.   And when you speak about long convoys, just so we have a better

 4     idea, approximately how large were these convoys are we talking about?

 5     Hundreds of people, thousands of people?  How many people would you see

 6     in these convoys that were going through Decani municipality?

 7        A.   I can't talk about the number of people.  They were all driving

 8     their cars or tractors, so we could say approximately 100 people.

 9        Q.   So you would see groups of 100 people going through your

10     municipality, and they would be heading in which direction?

11        A.   They went in the direction of Djakovica.

12        Q.   And was this something that you personally observed while you

13     were out on the road in Decani municipality, these convoys of people?

14        A.   Yes.  I saw them personally.  I even spoke to them.  I asked why

15     they moved out, where from, and where they were heading, and they would

16     answer that because of the new security situation, because of the

17     propaganda that was being spread by the KLA and because of the orders

18     that they also had, they had to leave their villages and they were told

19     that they couldn't be protected anymore from the Serbian forces and that

20     they couldn't guarantee for their lives anymore.  So this was already

21     said.  They were also informed that they could find themselves in a

22     cross-fire between the KLA and NATO bombing because NATO continuously

23     bombed the area of Decani.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

25             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

Page 13345

 1     interrupting my learned colleague.  I just want to make sure that we have

 2     something in the transcript.  In line 16 we have something that the

 3     witness never said in Serbian, so could we please clarify this so that

 4     where the orders are mentioned, the orders that I had, so this is

 5     something that he never actually said in Serbian, so I just want to

 6     clarify this.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  You notice the position, Ms. Kravetz?

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I believe the passage in question is the one

 9     that said they couldn't be protected anymore from Serbian forces and they

10     couldn't guarantee for their lives anymore.  I presume that's the passage

11     in question.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  No.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  I don't see -- oh, because of the orders that I

14     also had.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:

17        Q.   Sir, just to go back to your answer and to clarify it.  You said,

18     when we were talking about this convoys of people, you said they would

19     answer that because of the new security situation, because of the

20     propaganda that was being spread by the KLA, and because of the orders

21     that I also had they had to leave their villages; is that what you meant

22     to say, sir?

23        A.   No, no, I never mentioned orders that I had.  This is not in

24     conformity with the rest of my answer.

25        Q.   Now, you've told us that you -- well, just to clarify that

Page 13346

 1     answer, what did you mean to say?  You didn't say orders that I had.  Did

 2     you mean to say something else?

 3        A.   I don't know which orders.  I went out voluntarily.  People were

 4     passing by, I wanted to know, wanted to see why they were leaving, what

 5     was going on, why were there columns there passing by.  I spoke Albanian

 6     with them.  My Albanian is as good as my Serbian, and there was no

 7     mention of any orders that I had.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I think the issue has been clarified.  So you told us that

 9     from the beginning or commencement of the NATO bombing campaign you began

10     seeing this convoys of refugees passing through Decani municipality.  Is

11     this about the same time when you began seeing people in Decani

12     municipality leave?

13        A.   That was happening in several instances.  It wasn't just one day.

14     You know how long the air campaign lasted.  So people were not all

15     deciding to leave on the same day.  It happened throughout the air

16     campaign.  People were making their own assessments as to their safety,

17     whether they were safe or not safe.  So in several instances throughout

18     those months, they were leaving the area, Serbs, Montenegrins and

19     Albanians.

20        Q.   Sir --

21        A.   So we can't say --

22        Q.   My question was a different one.  You had indicated that from the

23     beginning of the NATO bombing campaign you began seeing refugees or

24     persons of Albanian ethnicity from other municipalities, and you've

25     mentioned Pec as one of them crossing Decani municipality and heading to

Page 13347

 1     Djakovica.  What I'm asking, and this is in relation to your answer where

 2     you said that it was a well known fact that Albanians and persons of

 3     other nationalities were leaving Decani, what I'm asking is whether you

 4     began seeing persons, the residents of Decani municipality leaving as

 5     well once the NATO bombing campaign began?  Is that when you started

 6     noticing this happening in your own municipality?

 7        A.   Also then and perhaps even prior to that.  Some families left the

 8     area before NATO started its air campaign.  They left because of the

 9     activities of Albanian terrorists.  And then later on, after the NATO

10     campaign began they started leaving in greater numbers.

11        Q.   So you are saying that once the NATO bombing campaign began, the

12     inhabitants of your municipality, Decani municipality, began leaving in

13     greater numbers; correct?

14        A.   Yes, but even before NATO bombing due to terrorist attacks and

15     due to the fear they had for their families, they were leaving the

16     municipality of Decani.  Among them some were Albanians and some were

17     Serbs.  There were also some Albanians who were afraid of the terrorists.

18        Q.   And wouldn't you say, sir, based on your own observations on the

19     ground that in the weeks immediately following the NATO bombing, that is

20     the end of March, early April, do you see a larger number of persons

21     leaving Decani municipality?  You've told us that they left throughout

22     the bombing campaign, but in this period did you see an increased number,

23     a larger number of refugees leaving the municipality?

24        A.   Well, I wouldn't say that an increased number was leaving.  A lot

25     of people left even prior to that, so whoever thought of leaving had left

Page 13348

 1     earlier and then there was a smaller number who remained there, and

 2     eventually they left too.

 3        Q.   Did persons of Albanian ethnicity leave Decani town once the NATO

 4     bombing began?  Did you see that happening?

 5        A.   There were such cases, but a lot of Albanians also remained in

 6     the town of Decani in their apartments and in their houses, they remained

 7     there until KFOR arrived.  They had no problem, they did not leave the

 8     area, they remained in homes and apartments without any problems.

 9     Nothing unpleasant happened to them.  Nothing was done to them either by

10     police members or by members of the KLA.

11        Q.   Sir, we've spoken about Istinic.  Did you see the Albanian

12     population or members of the Albanian population leave the village of

13     Istinic once the NATO bombing campaign began?  Did you observe that or

14     no?

15        A.   No, I did not observe that.  The columns that I spoke of came

16     from the entire territory that I mentioned.  I didn't notice whether

17     these people were from Istinic or from other place.  This was the main

18     road leading towards Djakovica and towards the border crossing.

19        Q.   You mentioned earlier that you spoke to refugees in these columns

20     and that they told you where they were from and the reasons why they were

21     leaving.  Do you recall saying that?

22        A.   Yes, I did talk to them.  But as for them telling me where they

23     were from, I didn't really go into such details.  I was interested in the

24     reason for them leaving.  I wasn't interested in where they hailed from,

25     so I didn't really discuss things in detail with them.  I was just

Page 13349

 1     inquiring about the reason.

 2        Q.   And where is it that you had these conversations with the

 3     refugees, just on the road?  You would meet them and --

 4        A.   No, no.  I talked to them.  Because the MUP building is right

 5     next to the road, so I talked to them right there by the road, by the

 6     police station in the centre of Decani.

 7        Q.   So these columns of Albanian refugees that were coming from other

 8     municipalities and also leaving Decani, they would pass in front of the

 9     OUP building in Decani town?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  There was no other road.  Rather, there are

11     alternative roads via villages in Decani municipality.  They could have

12     used those roads to go to Djakovica municipality without using the main

13     road, and then there was also a part towards Djakovica that has a split

14     leading to Glina, so it's not like this was the only road they could have

15     taken.

16        Q.   Yes, I understand that.  So now you said you've spoken to the

17     refugees that were passing in front of the OUP building and you have

18     given, during your testimony, you've summarised the reasons that were

19     given to you and your conversations as to why they were leaving the

20     municipality.  And I believe that one of the reasons that you gave

21     yesterday and you've also repeated it today was because the NATO bombing

22     was underway; correct?  That was one of the reasons that were given to

23     you?

24        A.   That was one of the reasons, and another important reason was

25     that the members of the KLA --

Page 13350

 1        Q.   Sir, we are going to go through the reasons, I just wanted to

 2     confirm that that was one of the reasons you had given yesterday as to

 3     why the population was leaving.  Another reason you gave, and I believe

 4     that that is where you were going to as well, was that they were afraid

 5     for their lives and they were afraid for their families because of the

 6     war operations that were going on between the KLA and the MUP and they

 7     did not want to find themselves between these forces and under fire.

 8     That's at transcript page 13290.  Do you recall indicating that that was

 9     another one of the reasons why they told you they were leaving?

10        A.   I mentioned that several times already.  Flyers were distributed

11     in Albanian where the KLA was warning them that they needed to leave the

12     area because they couldn't protect them, and they were to leave the area

13     in order to make it seem that there was a humanitarian catastrophe.

14        Q.   Yes.  And the third reason I was going to ... [Microphone not

15     activated] ... mention that I believe you've already referred to, was

16     that they had mentioned that the reason -- another reason was that the

17     KLA was exercising pressure against them in order to create convoys and

18     to produce some kind of humanitarian catastrophe, and that's what you

19     were mentioning earlier, that was another reason given to you?

20        A.   I didn't understand your question.

21        Q.   I was just putting your testimony to you of whether that was

22     another reason that you gave that the refugees had told you of why they

23     were leaving, that the KLA was exercising pressure against them?

24        A.   Reasons for what?  I have mentioned already that they were

25     worried for their own safety, the safety of their families.  They were

Page 13351

 1     worried about NATO bombing.  They didn't want to be caught in cross-fire.

 2     They didn't want to die and lose their lives.  These were all the reasons

 3     that I've mentioned a number of times in all of my statements in

 4     evidence.

 5        Q.   Now, if we turn to the first reason that we were discussing about

 6     NATO activity, you told us that Decani municipality was, in fact, bombed

 7     quite heavily; was that your evidence?  And that created fear?

 8        A.   Yes.  Since it has a strategically important position near the

 9     border with Albania, it was quite heavily bombed especially the area next

10     to the border and then the area within Decani itself where they bombed

11     army members in their positions, police members.  They also dropped

12     cluster bombs in the vicinity of the Decani monastery, which is a very

13     significant religious site that outraged Serbs and Montenegrins.  They

14     were outraged that even sacred sites in Kosovo were not protected.  In

15     addition, they also bombed factories and all vital facilities, bridges

16     and so on.  And as far as I know, they also bombed a column of civilians,

17     Albanians, in the territory of Djakovica municipality.  And this was

18     reported by the media.

19        Q.   Sir, in addition to the MUP being present in Decani municipality

20     in 1998 and 1999, the VJ was also there; correct?

21        A.   I had no contacts whatsoever with the Army of Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   You did not know that there were VJ units in your municipality?

23        A.   I knew, and I would see army units, but I had no co-operation

24     with them, no contacts, nor did we have any joint agreements or talks.

25     Nothing.

Page 13352

 1        Q.   And the brigade that had responsibility for your municipality at

 2     the time, and we are speaking both in 1998 and 1999, was the 125th

 3     Motorised Brigade; correct?

 4        A.   I don't know about that.

 5        Q.   So you say you saw VJ units in the municipality but you do not

 6     know which brigade these units belonged to?

 7        A.   Well, one can see men in uniform in town, but I didn't go as far

 8     as to talk with them or their officers.  They had their job to do and I

 9     had no contacts or co-operation with them whatsoever.

10        Q.   I'm not asking if you had co-operation with them.  I'm just

11     asking whether you had information of which VJ brigade had responsibility

12     for your municipality?

13        A.   No, I didn't know.  I had no such information which brigade, what

14     its goal was, and why it was there, just as I didn't know about their

15     tasks.

16        Q.   Okay.  Sir.  Very well, sir.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  I want to show you an exhibit, and this is P954.

18     And it's the war diary of the 125th Motorised Brigade.

19        Q.   And I represent to you, sir, that this was the brigade which had

20     responsibility over Decani and other areas as well, and while this is

21     being brought up, sir, I'll already indicate to you that this is a

22     handwritten document and so some portions of it in the photocopied

23     Serbian version aren't as legible as in the English, so I'll be reading

24     from the English version.  If we could go to -- we see that this begins

25     on the 24th of March.

Page 13353

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could go to page 3 in the English and also

 2     page 3 in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, this is the entry for the 25th March.  I would like to

 4     direct your attention to paragraph 1 where it says "the enemy," which I

 5     know is a bit fuzzy to read in your version.  I'll read it out.  It says:

 6             "During the day STS opened fire at VJ Yugoslav and MUP Ministry

 7     of the Interior units, air-raid warning signals were passed on via the

 8     reporting and early warning systems several times.  There were no air

 9     attacks."

10             Do you see that, sir?  It's the first part of -- it's a bit

11     blackened out in your version.

12        A.   I do.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  Now, if we go to page 5 of the English and page 6

14     of the B/C/S.

15        Q.   And this is the entry for the next day, 26 March.  And I'll read

16     the second sentence, start on the second sentence.  It says:

17             "On several occasions air-raid warnings was given but NATO forces

18     did not open fire at facilities and units in the zone of responsibility.

19     NATO [indiscernible] high altitudes.  Warning was issued that they are

20     dropping infrared bombing markers and parachutes; if you come across

21     them, their energy source should be removed" it says.

22             Do you see that entry for the 26th of March?  I'm just pointing

23     to the text here.

24        A.   I hear what you are saying, but I can't see it here in the text.

25        Q.   At the top of the text, sir, but it is, as I said, a bit hard to

Page 13354

 1     read in the B/C/S.

 2        A.   Well, it's illegible.  It's not clear.

 3        Q.   Yes, I have pointed that out, sir, in relation to the B/C/S,

 4     that's why I'm reading from the English.  I want to show you another

 5     entry, and this is page 7 of the English and page 9 in the B/C/S, and

 6     this one is also hard to read in the Serbian so I'll read out.

 7             And I draw your attention, sir, to the fact that this diary for

 8     the 27th of March, again indicates NATO forces did not attack facilities

 9     in the zone of responsibility.  I do appreciate it's difficult to read in

10     the B/C/S.  And I just wanted to show you one last entry.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could go to the next page in the English.

12     And we want the bottom part of that page, and it's also the next page in

13     the B/C/S.  If we could scroll down in the English.

14        Q.   Now, sir, for the 28th of March again, this war diary indicates

15     NATO forces did not attack in the zone of responsibility.  It is

16     difficult to read, it's the next page in the B/C/S.  Now, sir, I

17     represent to you, sir, that the zone of responsibility of the 125th

18     Motorised Brigade included the municipality of Decani, and according to

19     this war diary, and I'm not going to continue going through it for the

20     entries of the last week of March, but I put to you, sir, that they

21     indicate that there were no NATO air attacks in their zone of

22     responsibility, that is including in Decani.  Now, sir, this is the

23     information that the VJ, which was operating in your area had, and you

24     are telling us that the convoys that you saw leaving Decani once the NATO

25     bombing campaign began were leaving because of the NATO bombing, but, in

Page 13355

 1     fact, this diary shows that there were no NATO attacks in your area, were

 2     there, sir?

 3        A.   Well, I cannot discuss this report.  I have no idea who wrote it

 4     or how.  You say that it was the army.  That's the information that they

 5     had.  It is their diary.  According to the information and the data that

 6     I had, the situation was different.  It was their zone of responsibility,

 7     they are talking about it.  I don't know what their zone of

 8     responsibility was at the time.  They had their own superior command and

 9     their own plans that I was never aware of.

10        Q.   Okay.  Very well, sir, so you are saying you have no information

11     about what is recorded in this diary about the fact that there were, in

12     fact, no NATO air attacks in the zone of responsibility of the 125th,

13     including Decani, during the last week of March?  You don't know about

14     that?

15        A.   I know that some attacks were carried out in Decani, but what the

16     army reported or wrote, I don't know about that.  That's their problem.

17        Q.   While we are on the topic of -- and I do want to indicate that

18     there is an air-raid recorded for the 24th of March, but it does not

19     indicate where it occurred.  That's just for reference.

20             While we are on the topic of the NATO air-strikes, sir, yesterday

21     you were asked whether you had any information on some inhumane

22     measures -- if you had any information that some inhumane measures were

23     used in your territory, and you said, yes, depleted uranium was used

24     during the NATO bombing campaign, these were bombs that created huge

25     craters and were very destructive.  They contained depleted uranium, and

Page 13356

 1     this is at Transcript page 13291 and the following page.  Do you recall

 2     saying that, sir?

 3        A.   Yes, that was happening very close to where I lived, one such

 4     bomb was dropped and the windows and the door were completely destroyed

 5     in the building, so the bomb had fallen in the vicinity of the building.

 6        Q.   And how did you know, sir, that these bombs contained depleted

 7     uranium?

 8        A.   Well, considering the effects they produced and the depth of

 9     their craters and how destructive they were and everything else, that's

10     how you could judge.  Later on in 1999 and after the year 2000 there was

11     a lot of talking about that, and certain areas were marked because

12     depleted uranium had been found.  It was in the media that the members of

13     KFOR and of Italian army had had various forms of sickness caused by

14     depleted uranium.

15        Q.   So this is information that you obtained after the war?  The fact

16     that these bombs contained depleted uranium is something that you learned

17     after the war ended?

18        A.   Yes, I was no expert.  I couldn't tell, but these were very

19     strong detonations and the craters were large and the bombs were very

20     destructive and so on.

21        Q.   Before coming to testify here, sir, did you speak to anyone, and

22     by anyone I mean anyone with interest in this case about the issue of

23     depleted uranium?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Were you aware, sir, that the issue surrounding the use of

Page 13357

 1     depleted uranium have become a live issue in this case?

 2        A.   No, I was not aware of that.

 3        Q.   Did you know that this topic was being discussed?  That other

 4     witnesses have spoken about that in this case?  Other witnesses from the

 5     Defence?

 6        A.   No, I did not sufficiently follow what Defence witnesses

 7     testified about.

 8        Q.   Sir, I put to you that you somehow have received information that

 9     this issue is, in fact, an issue that has been discussed in this case and

10     that that is why yesterday during the course of your testimony you

11     mentioned this when speaking of NATO bombing?  [Microphone not

12     activated] ... you have mentioned it in order to support the Defence case

13     on this issue, haven't you, sir?

14        A.   No, not so that I would support the Defence case, but it was

15     really so.  It was confirmed later on that depleted uranium was indeed

16     used.

17        Q.   Okay.  Sir, let's move to another issue that you raised during

18     your testimony yesterday, and this was the fact that the KLA was

19     exercising pressure against the refugees in order to create convoys, and

20     you said they were also distributing leaflets and they tried to spread

21     panic among the population by using misinformation, they claimed that

22     Serbian forces carrying out aggression against civilians in order to

23     place that in the international media.  Do you recall saying that

24     yesterday, sir?  Speaking about leaflets distributed by the KLA?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 13358

 1        Q.   And if we could have -- I believe you were shown one of these

 2     leaflets.  This is D698.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could have that up on the screen.

 4        Q.   And while that is being brought up, you said yesterday that

 5     leaflets of this kind were thrown all around in areas of Kosovo including

 6     Decani municipality and that the KLA was doing that.  Do you remember

 7     saying that, sir?  This is at transcript page 13292.

 8        A.   Yes, I remember.  It's correct that I said so yesterday.

 9        Q.   And you said you had seen this earlier, this leaflet that's being

10     displayed here?

11        A.   Yes, in my area.

12        Q.   Where did you see them, sir?

13        A.   Well, I received them from my associates in the field and also

14     through my friends and my connections.

15        Q.   Sir, isn't it correct that the MUP sometimes had the practice of

16     distributing leaflets to the population to convey information?

17        A.   I don't know which leaflets you have in mind.

18        Q.   For example, in 1999 weren't leaflets used by the MUP to ask

19     Kosovo Albanians to return -- who had been displaced by fighting to

20     return to their villages?  Do you recall that, sir?

21        A.   I do not remember that.

22        Q.   Well, maybe to refresh your memory, I'll show you a document.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Which is P483.  If we could have a look at that.

24        Q.   And, sir, I'll just inform you that this is diplomatic

25     correspondence from the Austrian embassy, and it's from August 1998.

Page 13359

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  And if we could go to the second page, at the

 2     bottom, in the third section.

 3        Q.   It's a heading entitled:  "IDP return - possible assistance of

 4     IC."  And it says:  "Text of MUP flyer in the way of its distribution not

 5     the right way to encourage the return of IDPs."  Do you see that, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, I see it.

 7        Q.   Does this refresh your recollection that the MUP sometimes

 8     distributed leaflets to convey information to the population?

 9        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.  I never saw anything like that, and

10     I'm not aware of that.

11        Q.   Now, if we could go back to D698.  This is the leaflet in

12     question.  And we've seen it earlier on the screen, sir, and you've had

13     the chance to look at it, and you would agree with me that it bears the

14     stamp of the KLA but it's signed by Dr. Rugova; correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's what it says at the bottom.  The president of the

16     Kosovo Republic, Ibrahim Rugova.

17        Q.   Now, sir, would you agree with me that propaganda is sometimes

18     used as a tool in war?

19        A.   In this case, it was used and it is used.

20        Q.   Now, sir, if we look at the leaflet, we see it's signed by

21     Ibrahim Rugova.  In this case, we have the evidence of Dr. Rugova's

22     personal secretary, Adnan Merovci who was shown one of these leaflets,

23     and he commented on the the leaflet, and I'll want to put to you his

24     testimony, and this is at transcript page 2232.  He was asked:

25             "Did you have the opportunity to see any of these pamphlets that

Page 13360

 1     were distributed?"  And he said:  "I didn't see them in the act of

 2     distributing them, but I saw them in the hallway before the entrance to

 3     my flat.  I saw such a pamphlet.  I took a copy of it, and I saw it was

 4     mere propaganda both in terms of its contents and the way it was

 5     formulated, general layout of the pamphlet.  It contained many errors,

 6     and there was a discrepancy between what it said and the insignia and the

 7     person who signed it.  On top there was a KLA insignia and then signed

 8     below it was signed by Mr. Rugova when, as you well know, Mr. Rugova led

 9     the LDK and the Kosovo Liberation Army was led by other people.  This

10     shows that it was a way to strike fear and panic among the population

11     because the text was full of mistakes in Albanian which show that it was

12     not done by professionals and that the goal was, as I said, to strike

13     panic among the population and to realise their aim of ethnic cleansing."

14     And then he was asked:  "And at the time did Mr. Rugova have any sort of

15     contact with the KLA?"  And he said:  "No, he did not."

16             So, sir, Mr. Merovci, who worked with Dr. Rugova at the time,

17     told us that this was, in fact, not a leaflet that was produced by him.

18     Do you have any comments regarding his testimony?

19        A.   Yes, I do.  It would be normal for Ibrahim Rugova to say he did

20     not do that and that he would defend himself in that way.  It would not

21     be logical for him to accept that considering the position he had as the

22     president of the Democratic Alliance of Communists, but it is not true

23     what he said, that he did not have any contacts with the KLA.  It is

24     correct that he did have contacts with the KLA.  There were two factions

25     in the KLA.  There was Rugova's faction and there was the other one led

Page 13361

 1     by Bujar Bukoshi.  And one more thing, I wish to say that as far as I'm

 2     familiar with the Albanian language, I don't think that there are any

 3     errors here, and I assert that this was the KLA propaganda and that they

 4     wanted to cause a humanitarian disaster and portray it, as I said

 5     earlier, as a large-scale aggression on part of the Republic of Serbia

 6     and its security forces.  After that, they would also cause NATO bombing.

 7        Q.   But, sir, isn't it clear from this text that, in fact, this would

 8     have been produced not by the KLA but by Serb forces because it was, in

 9     fact, Serb forces who wanted Albanians to leave Kosovo, not the KLA?

10        A.   Well, didn't we say earlier that propaganda is used in war time?

11     This was the propaganda used by the KLA.  These were the methods that

12     they used among their own population.  Why wouldn't they use such methods

13     when they even killed their own population?

14        Q.   Weren't the KLA, sir, fighting to keep control of Kosovo?  Isn't

15     that why they were fighting Serb forces?

16        A.   The reason was for them to keep as much of the territory as

17     possible, but they also wanted to abuse their own population for their

18     own purposes, as I have said many times, so that they would bring about

19     the NATO aggression against the Republic of Serbia.

20        Q.   And they wanted to keep control of as much territory and that

21     included also keep the Albanian population in Kosovo; correct?  It was,

22     in fact, Serb forces who were interested in having Albanians leave

23     Kosovo?

24        A.   No, on the contrary, the Serbian forces always always insisted

25     that the Albanian civilian population should remain in their villages and

Page 13362

 1     in Kosovo.  I'm not aware of any information that the Serbian security

 2     forces ever acted in such a manner that they would abuse the Albanian

 3     population.

 4        Q.   Okay, sir.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  I see, Your Honours, it's time for the break, I'm

 6     going to move on to another topic.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have the first break now.  We

 8     will resume at 11.00.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Kravetz.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Sir, right before we broke off we were talking about the reasons

16     for departure of the population from Decani municipality.  Now, sir, in

17     this case we have heard evidence from residents of Decani who have told

18     us that the reason they left Decani municipality in March of 1999 was not

19     because of the KLA bombing, or because -- of the NATO bombing or any sort

20     of pressure from the KLA or the leaflets we've spoken about.  But they

21     said that they left the municipality because they were expelled by Serb

22     forces and that is the police and the VJ.  Do you know anything about

23     that, sir?

24        A.   No, I do not know anything about that.  And I claim that this is

25     not true.

Page 13363

 1        Q.   Sir, the evidence we have heard here is that on about the 26th of

 2     March, 1999, police arrived in the village of Drenovac and they ordered

 3     the the population to leave and the population gathered in the village of

 4     Beleg in Decani municipality.  Do you know anything about that happening?

 5        A.   No, I have no such information.

 6        Q.   We have also heard that from refugees who were in Beleg during

 7     the last week of March then on or about the 28th of March, 1999, Serb

 8     forces arrived in large numbers and police in military vehicles to the

 9     village, that there was a large number of refugees there.  They separated

10     men and women, stripped them, searched them, and robbed them of their

11     valuables.  Do you know anything about that, sir?

12        A.   No, this is the first time I have heard this right now from you.

13        Q.   And these witnesses have also told the Court that these forces,

14     in fact, stayed in the village over night, that the women were taken to a

15     separate house, and that several of them, several women and young girls

16     were raped during the night, and that the following morning the refugees

17     who were in Beleg were forced to leave the Serb forces by the police and

18     the military who were there.  Do you know anything about Albanian

19     refugees being ordered to leave the village of Beleg, in Decani

20     municipality, around the 29th of March?

21        A.   No, I have no information about that case either.

22        Q.   And, sir, we've heard also from people who were among these

23     refugees who were forced to leave Beleg that they were sent -- or they

24     ended up in the village of Istinic about which we've spoken, and that

25     they later were also forced to leave around the 1st of April, police

Page 13364

 1     arrived and they were forced to leave that village and they were told to

 2     head to Albania.  Do you know anything about Albanian refugees being

 3     expelled from the village of Istinic around the 1st of April?

 4        A.   No, I do not.  I have no such information.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, we have also seen documents and evidence in this case

 6     that during these days that I've been speaking about, this is the last

 7     week of March, VJ and MUP were operating in the area of these villages.

 8     Do you know anything about VJ/MUP actions taking place in these areas,

 9     around the villages of Beleg, Istinic?

10        A.   No, I'm not aware of any actions in that area at the time.  At

11     that time I carried out my regular duties within the OUP Decani.

12        Q.   Do you know anything about a joint MUP/VJ action in the village

13     of Kosare also in the same period?

14        A.   No, I do not.

15        Q.   I want to show you some documents, sir.  Maybe this helps you

16     with your memory.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could please first look at P957.

18        Q.   And this is, sir, the war diary of an armoured battalion of the

19     125th Motorised Brigade.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could have that up on the screen.

21        Q.   And this war diary covers the period from 25th March, 1999, to

22     16th June, 1999.  I would now first like to look at page 3, both in the

23     English and in the B/C/S.  And this is the entry for the 28th of March.

24     I'll read out a passage, which is -- we need to turn the page in the

25     B/C/S, I see it's upside down.  Thank you.

Page 13365

 1             It says somewhere in the top of the page:

 2             "The 1st TV" which in another -- in the earlier pages indicated

 3     means tank platoon "which had gone to Decani engaged in combat in Pozare

 4     village in order to evacuate the killed police officers, the platoon was

 5     within distance of the Novi Sad PJP.  The task was not completed, one

 6     tank was hit and one soldier killed and three were seriously and slightly

 7     wounded."

 8             Does this help you, sir, with your recollection of there being an

 9     action in Pozare village in Decani around the 27th of March?

10        A.   Even in my previous testimony I said that as regards the army,

11     their activities, their diaries, and their orders, I had nothing to do

12     with that.  I know nothing about what you are just showing me.

13        Q.   Well, let's look at the next page, this is page 4 in the English

14     and page 4 in the B/C/S, 29th of March.  It's again a reference to this

15     same action in Pozare village, and I'll read our a portion.  It says:

16             "Part of the battalion consisting of seven tanks with the first

17     infantry platoon and the 2nd Police Command Company conducted an

18     operation to evacuate a burned-out tank and police officers killed in

19     Pozare village.  The operation was conducted successfully and the enemy

20     suffered losses."

21             Now, sir, we see here that this operation in Pozare village

22     involved a large number of tanks, they are speaking about seven tanks and

23     both a VJ and MUP unit.  You are saying you had no information about this

24     going on?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 13366

 1        Q.   Let's look at another page, sir.  This is page 6 in the English,

 2     page 6 in the B/C/S as well.  This is the entry for 31st March, 1999.

 3     And I'll read out the portion of this page it says:

 4             "The preparation of five tanks for clearing up Istinic village

 5     was ordered."

 6             Do you see that on the screen, sir?  Towards the middle of the

 7     page.  If we could zoom in, the middle of the page in the B/C/S.

 8        A.   It's hardly legible.  Its illegible, I can't see it.  One can

 9     only assume what it says here.

10        Q.   Sir, we've spoken quite extensively or you've spoken in your

11     testimony quite extensively about Istinic village.  Do you recall

12     anything about there being five tanks from the VJ sent to carry out

13     clearing up tasks there on 31st March?  Does that ring any bells that

14     that happened?

15        A.   I can't recall that event or anything else related to MUP/VJ

16     actions.

17        Q.   If we look, sir, on the same page, just scroll down towards

18     further down the bottom where it says:

19             "Pec 1st April, 1999," there's a reference to the same action,

20     this is the following day, and it says:  "Four tanks within the strengths

21     of the 2nd MTV cleared the terrain in the Istinic village sector.  There

22     were no losses or wounded."

23             You don't recall this either, sir?  On the 1st of April?

24        A.   No, this all has to do with the army and the police and the MUP

25     and the minister were responsible for the police, and I do not know about

Page 13367

 1     any army activities.  I never co-operated with them.  I wasn't informed

 2     about this.  I wasn't aware about this.  I know nothing about this.

 3        Q.   Well, let's go back to the war diary that we were looking at

 4     earlier.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  This is P954.  If we could have page 12 in the

 6     B/C/S and page 10 in the English.

 7        Q.   And I put to you, sir, that this is an entry for the 28th of

 8     March, 1999 which is the week that we have been speaking about.  If we

 9     look where it says 1200 hours on the top of the page in English.

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  I was looking for page 12 in the B/C/S, I don't

11     believe that's at the right page.

12        Q.   I'll read out the portion, sir:

13             "1200 hours, order sent to the commander of the brigade to

14     provide support to MUP forces for the destruction of STS in Malisevo

15     sector," and it has the number of the order there, and if we look at 1400

16     hours, 1430, it says:  "PRK commander requested details in connection

17     with operations of our unit in Decani sector and a briefing on the

18     situation in the unit and in connection with the damaged tank."

19             Now, sir, this war diary of the 125th seems to be indicating that

20     this brigade was involved in joint actions with the MUP in your

21     municipality on the 29th of March.  You are telling us you had no

22     information about this?

23        A.   That's correct.  I know nothing about this.  You are mentioning

24     Malisevo here, and I don't know why you are mentioning that.

25        Q.   My reference was to the second portion.  I was just reading the

Page 13368

 1     text on the screen, sir.

 2             Sir, let me show you another document, and this is 65 ter 06099:

 3     And this is, sir, a portion of -- and I want to go to pages -- start on

 4     page 32 of the English.  There's no B/C/S copy available.  And this, sir,

 5     is the transcript of the testimony of the commander of the 125th

 6     Motorised Brigade in the Milutinovic case, and his name is Dragan

 7     Zivanovic, and I just want to show you what he said in relation to these

 8     events that we've been discussing, this action.  I'll start reading from

 9     line 17 of this page.  He is asked:

10             "Did a clash occur in late March with the KLA forces in that

11     area?"  And this is a reference to a clash in the village of Pozare which

12     is mentioned earlier.  And he says:  "On the 29th of March, we lent

13     support to the MUP forces in the Pozare village area.  We actually

14     dispatched three tanks over there to that area.  During the fighting, a

15     tank was hit by an ambush from the rear in the Pozare village area

16     destroying one tank and one of my soldiers were killed, Private Dunic."

17             If we could turn the page.  This witness is asked on the next

18     page by Judge Bonomy, this is somewhere in the top of the page:

19             "And how many troops did you engage in this?"  And he says:  "My

20     two combat groups numbered 350 men.  We were lending support to the MUP

21     units and they had as many people as we did; therefore, a total of about

22     700 men."  And Judge Bonomy asks:  "How was it that you lent support to

23     them?  What did you actually do?"  And the witness said:  "When we say

24     support, we mean support by manoeuvring, in this case, combat units,

25     combat equipment, or firing.  We would take up some prominent features

Page 13369

 1     and facilities.  We would protect any advance that they made, we would

 2     secure their flanks and try to attack the firing positions of the

 3     terrorist forces wherever we believed that the MUP units alone would not

 4     have -- and we believe that the MUP units alone would not have been

 5     successful in this."

 6             Now, sir, based on the testimony of the commander of this brigade

 7     whose war diary I put to you earlier, he is indicating here that this

 8     action in Pozare village involved quite a large number of men, in fact,

 9     he refers to 700, 300 MUP, 300 VJ.  And you are telling me that you heard

10     nothing about this action taking place in Pozare village on the 29th of

11     March?

12        A.   Well, I wasn't the person that was supposed to know.  First of

13     all, nobody had to inform me about these actions.  Secondly, it was the

14     staff and the minister that had to receive the information, so any

15     information you need you can get from the staff and the minister.  I

16     wasn't involved neither in planning nor in implementing these actions.

17     Here you have a member of the army.  Who he reported to, I don't know.

18     I'm also not aware of the numbers that you are putting to me here.

19        Q.   Pozare village, sir, how far is it, if you know, from Decani town

20     approximately?

21        A.   The village of Pozare is approximately 15 kilometres away.

22        Q.   And how far is it from the village of Istinic, if you know?  I'm

23     just asking for an approximation.

24        A.   Would you like to know the distance as the crow flies or if you

25     go by road?

Page 13370

 1        Q.   Just an approximation based on your knowledge of?

 2        A.   Those were village roads, there were longer ones and shorter

 3     ones.  I can't really claim.  It depends which route one took.  There

 4     were several possibilities.

 5        Q.   Were they in the same general area, Istinic, Pozare, Beleg?

 6        A.   No, they were not in the same general area.

 7        Q.   And how far would you say that Pozare was from the village of

 8     Beleg?  I'm just asking for an estimation here, sir.  We have maps and we

 9     can look at them too.

10        A.   Yes, I do know that you have maps.  In my estimate the distance

11     between Pozare and Beleg, let me remember, it's been a long time.

12        Q.   If you don't know, sir, that's okay.  I don't want you to guess

13     on this.  I'm just --

14        A.   Up to 7 kilometres, I believe.

15        Q.   Okay.  Sir, and you are saying despite the fact this village was

16     about 15 kilometres away from Decani and this action involved a large

17     contingent of both VJ and MUP, you knew nothing about this happening on

18     the 29th of March?

19        A.   Well, I said this repeatedly during my testimony.

20        Q.   Okay.  Very well, sir.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I've shown two pages from the

22     transcript of commander Zivanovic, and I would like for those pages to be

23     admitted.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  What were the page numbers?

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  32 and 33.  And the exhibit number is 06099.

Page 13371

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Those two pages will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P01585, Your Honour.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:

 4        Q.   Now, sir, you have indicated repeatedly that you knew nothing

 5     about the expulsions and you've also told us that you knew nothing about

 6     these actions.  I want to show you another exhibit.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  This is 65 ter 06101.  If we could have that up on

 8     the screen.

 9        Q.   This is a witness statement taken by the ICTY of a person, a

10     woman by the name of Fetije Vishaj.  It's dated 29th January, 2000.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to go to page 3 in the English and

12     page 3 also in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   I'm waiting for that, sir, to come up on the screen.  So this

14     witness tells us on page 3 that on the 28th of March, it was Bajram's Day

15     around 11.00 in the morning in my village, which she indicates in the

16     earlier page was Istinic, had been surrounded by Serbian army,

17     paramilitary and police forces.  All the houses from the village had been

18     searched.  There were 100 displaced persons from the village of Drenoc,

19     Gllogjan, and Carrabreg.  My house was surrounded and two policemen came

20     into it, and later on in this statement she indicates how they were

21     ordered to leave.

22             Now, I want to take you to page 7 in the English and B/C/S and

23     just to move quickly through this statement, I will represent to you,

24     sir, that this witness ended up in the village of Beleg, and in her

25     statement she speaks about Serb forces arriving in Beleg and speaks about

Page 13372

 1     women being sexually assaulted there on the night of the 28th.

 2             Now, on page 7 she is referring to events on the 29th, and in the

 3     middle of the page she says:

 4             "The next morning at 7.00, the paramilitary who took my necklace

 5     pointed his finger at me and said, 'you.'  I was so frightened, then he

 6     gave me my necklace back.  We were taken out.  I saw and heard soldiers

 7     calling one policeman Vula.  I saw him talking to soldiers.  He had a

 8     white Niva car.  They were always in groups.  I saw Zoran," and in

 9     another place of her statement she claims that this is Zoran Djurisic

10     together with them.  "We asked them where we were being taken.  They said

11     that we would be taken to Albania.  We were ordered to get on tractors,

12     which were supposed to take us to Albania.  Vula had short black hair and

13     fat.  He was the chief of police in Decani before the war."

14             Now, sir, this witness here is placing you in Beleg at the time

15     that she and other refugees were expelled from there.  You have told us

16     earlier today that you were, in fact, known by the nickname of Vula;

17     correct?  Do you recall anything about these events?  I see that you are

18     smiling.

19        A.   Yes, it is true that I knew why you were asking me this.  The

20     Albanians usually called me Vula because they couldn't pronounce the L

21     sound.  Now, this lady who gave this statement, I have to tell you this

22     statement is completely incorrect.  First of all, this woman doesn't even

23     know me.  Albanian women traditionally never had any contacts with

24     police.  This is a fictitious statement in which she was coached what she

25     needed to state.  This is completely untrue.  Both the portions where

Page 13373

 1     they describe paramilitary forces and the portions concerning these

 2     events, nor do I know anything regarding these events.  She describes

 3     Vula as short and fat with black hair.  I'm neither short nor fat nor do

 4     I have black hair.  Then she says that before the war he was chief in

 5     Decani, and I was chief during the war.  So the statement is full of

 6     contradictions, imprecisions, and it is completely untrue.  I see this

 7     for the first time, and all I can say is that it is not true and that I'm

 8     not familiar with this.

 9        Q.   Very well, sir, I'll move on to the testimony of another witness.

10     Before I do that, Your Honour, can I have this statement marked for

11     identification just for purpose of reference later.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be marked for identification.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P01586 marked for

14     identification, Your Honour.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to bring up the transcript of

16     transcript page 3849.  This is the testimony of Mehmet Mazrekaj, and I

17     believe the date is 28th of April, last year.  If we could have that up

18     on the screen.

19        Q.   And this, sir, is a school teacher from Drenovac who testified in

20     this case, and he was also among the civilians in Beleg who were expelled

21     and ended up in Istinic and on the 1st of April was expelled from there.

22     I'm going to read out a passage to you from that.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

24             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  It was

25     not recorded in the transcript nor did we hear in the interpretation the

Page 13374

 1     first and the last name of the person giving testimony here because the

 2     witness hasn't heard that, in fact.  Thank you.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  The person that the witness is called Mehmet

 4     Mazrekaj with a T at the end of Mehmet, Mazrekaj.  Yes.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you spell the surname, please.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  It's been -- yes, it's correct now.  The first name

 7     ends with a -- yes, it's correct.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:

10        Q.   Now, if we could look at page 3849.  I'm going to read a portion

11     of his evidence to you, sir.  It starts from -- and you explain:  "I know

12     in your statement that after you escaped you eventually made your way to

13     Isniq," which is the Albanian for Istinic.  You then described the Serbs

14     shelling Isniq.  "Can you tell us when it was that Serbs shelled Isniq?"

15     And he says:  "I arrived in Isniq the following day.  I remained there

16     for two days.  It was when the shelling started.  There were so many

17     people there.  The whole village was filled with people.  The fields

18     around were filled with people.  People from the villages of

19     [indiscernible] municipality, they had all gathered there.  The shelling

20     was ongoing."

21             And later he says -- he explains the position from where it was

22     shelled and he is asked:  "Can you tell us if you are aware of any

23     interactions with the police or police authorities in Isniq?  It was a

24     huge crowd.  The police in Decan issued the order to the police there

25     that we had to leave that area.  The chief of police in that area of

Page 13375

 1     Decan."  And the transcript says "Vula."

 2             If we move on to the next page, he is asked:  "Sir, can you just

 3     repeat the last name so the chief of police at the police station in

 4     Decan" - and we missed the last name - "Vukmir was his name, known as

 5     Vula, and his last name was Mircic."  And it goes on to say:  "Can you

 6     explain again what it was that the chief of police did?"

 7             And the person says, the witness says:  "I personally did not

 8     talk to him but the villagers from Isniq and the leaders of the village

 9     told us that we had to leave the village and head towards the police --

10     and head towards Albania.  And did the leaders of the village speak to

11     the chief of police, is that what you are saying?"

12             And later on if we scroll down a bit, it says:  "We joined the

13     convoy.  We were told that he had instructed some leaders, some local

14     policemen.  When you say 'he' you mean the chief of police had instructed

15     some leaders?  Yes, Vula.  And what did he instruct them to do?  He had

16     instructed them to tell all families there to leave the village and head

17     towards Albania" and then he says, "everybody left towards Albania?"

18             Sir, do you have any recollection of this of having ordered

19     civilians who had gathered in Istinic at the beginning of April 1999 to

20     leave and head to Albania?

21        A.   This statement is entirely untrue, the statement by Mr. Mazrekaj.

22     Nobody shelled the village.  Nobody forced the residents to leave the

23     village.  The witness also mentions local police, and he himself was a

24     member of local police.  So by providing this statement, he wanted to

25     safe-guard his own interests to protect himself from any repercussions by

Page 13376

 1     KLA and his own compatriots because he was part of the local security.

 2        Q.   Witness, Mr. Mazrekaj was a was a school teacher from Drenovac.

 3     He was not a local police.

 4        A.   He was a member of the local police.  This is just an alibi that

 5     he wants to create for himself in order to avoid being punished or being

 6     under threat of the KLA and his compatriots.  Why he is mentioning local

 7     police?  Why is he mentioning that he talked to them and to me?  It's not

 8     true what he is saying here.

 9        Q.   Did you order the refugees who had gathered in Istinic to leave

10     the village on 1st of April and to head to Albania?  Did you give that

11     order, sir?

12        A.   No, I did not give that order.  I was not present in Istinic.  I

13     did not issue any orders.  This is a pure fabrication on the part of

14     Mazrekaj.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Let me show you another document, sir.  This is

16     00473, if we could have that up on the screen.

17        Q.   And, sir, this document that we are going to see up on the screen

18     is an excerpt from a report published by the OSCE.  It's a report called

19     "As Seen As Told," which was published after the conflict.  And this is

20     the chapter that refers to your municipality of Decani.  We see the cover

21     page there.  Have you heard of this report, sir?

22        A.   No.  I haven't seen this.  I don't know who wrote this.  I don't

23     know what kind of a document this is.  I don't know what this is about.

24     I know -- I can see from the document that it has to do with human

25     rights.

Page 13377

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like for page 5 of the B/C/S and page 6 of

 2     the English to be shown, and I want the right side of second paragraph on

 3     both pages, if we could have that up on the screen.

 4        Q.   And this is a page or a section of the report that refers to

 5     Istinic.  And I'm going to just read out a portion of this page out to

 6     you, sir.  It says:

 7             "On or around 1st April, Serb forces surrounded and shelled

 8     Istinic.  They attacked with 13 tanks and several people were injured in

 9     the shelling.  Livestock was killed, houses set on fire, and people were

10     robbed.  The Decani chief of police was present and he gave -- and gave

11     Kosovo Albanian residents one hour to leave.  Some left in cars, while

12     others walked to the Albanian border in a convoy accompanied by police

13     forces from Decani and also as reported from Nis.  One interviewee

14     describes how Serb boys apparently as young as 12 years old were seen in

15     police uniforms and how stones were thrown at the Kosovo Albanian IDPs."

16             Now, this reference to the Decani chief of police, sir, here in

17     this report, that would be you; correct?

18        A.   It says here commander.  That's a broader term.  I was chief.  So

19     it has nothing to do with me.  I was not present in the village and I do

20     not know of these events.  It is not logical in an event like that to

21     send in 10 tanks.  I think this is a pure invention, and it is well known

22     that OSCE and similar organisations looked favourably upon the KLA and

23     frequently wrote things that were not true.

24        Q.   Do you have any explanation, sir, as to why an organisation such

25     as OSCE would make such an allegation in a report of this nature and

Page 13378

 1     indicate that the Decani chief of police was actually ordering Kosovo

 2     Albanian refugees to leave the village of Istinic?  Do you have any

 3     explanation for that, sir?

 4        A.   I do have an explanation.  It doesn't say chief of police in the

 5     text.  It says "commander," and I don't know what commander this was.

 6     What is written here is not true.  Once again I'm telling you that the

 7     OSCE and all other international organisations generally sided with the

 8     KLA and wrote things that were not true.

 9        Q.   Well, in the English it does say Decani chief of police, so I

10     think that's just a translation problem.  And your explanation to why

11     this allegation is being made here, sir, is that this organisation which

12     is siding with the KLA and so that's why they have included such a

13     specific allegation about you in their report?  That is the explanation

14     that you are giving, sir?

15        A.   These are all untruths, all of them.  Untruths that I'm seeing

16     for the first time.  They wanted to project this image in which the

17     Republic of Serbia was exploiting Albanians in every possible way in

18     order to -- for the air campaign to come about.

19        Q.   Well, let me show you another exhibit.  Before I do that, Your

20     Honours, could we have this exhibit marked for identification.  00473.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P01587 marked for

23     identification, Your Honour.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like 06102 up on the screen.

25        Q.   This is again a witness statement, sir, of a person called Florim

Page 13379

 1     Pergjagjaj, and it was taken by this Tribunal on the 6th of May, 1999.

 2     So this is immediately after the events that are described within the

 3     statement.  If we could go to the next page.  Now this person is also

 4     from the Decani municipality and he recounts in his statement how he was

 5     expelled from the village of Ljumbarde.  It's the next page in both

 6     languages, please.  I'm going to read you a portion of this statement.

 7     In the B/C/S I believe it's the next page.

 8             It's in the bottom of the English and it says:

 9             "On the 3rd of April 1999 Serb forces entered our village by

10     several tanks and APC coloured blue.  There were also green coloured

11     tanks and APCs.  Through a mega-phone Serbs ordered people to get out of

12     their houses and leave the village.  My family got into a tractor and

13     started moving in a convoy with other people, not only from our village

14     but also from others as well towards the town of Decan.  In Decan in

15     front of the police station, the policemen stopped every tractor and car.

16     Almost every man would be ordered out and beaten by policemen.  The other

17     members of the family were ordered to move farther in this way, some 150

18     men were separated from their families.  If we go to the next page he

19     says, one man's name was Nolak [phoen] from the village of Ratic [phoen]

20     Decan municipality.  These are among the people doing the beatings who

21     used to work as a taxi driver.  A policeman called Ljubisa, son of Milos

22     from the village of Tasenov [phoen], Decan municipality, who used to work

23     as a policeman in the town of Jakova, two sons of Slobo Votocevic [phoen]

24     from the village, same village also participated in the beating.  And

25     then he says:

Page 13380

 1             "They beat me in the presence of the chief of the Decan police

 2     department Vulio [sic] Mircic.  Somebody was beating me with a

 3     rifle-butt, somebody hit me with an iron bar on the head.  I tried to

 4     cover my head with my left hand, and my hand got broken as well as my

 5     middle finger on the left hands.  Some of the policemen took personal

 6     documents from me.  I never received them back.  I received first aid

 7     only in the hospital of Kukes."

 8             Now you've told us, sir, the convoys leaving Decan would pass in

 9     front of your OUP, which was on the main road you said.  Do you recall

10     anything about this incident, sir, refugees who were leaving the

11     municipality passing in front of your OUP and being beaten by members of

12     the police and other Serbs in your presence?

13        A.   This is the same phenomenon like the one in the previous

14     statements.  This is not true, on the contrary.  We're always there

15     because of these refugees so we would not allow anyone to mistreat them

16     especially if there were any Serb civilians around or any police members.

17     This is a pure fabrication of a member of the Decani municipality who is

18     trying in every way possible to show that the Albanian population was

19     suffering some kind of torture.  The motives are the same as those that I

20     mentioned earlier on several occasions.

21        Q.   Sir, I've shown you the statement of a woman who was in the

22     village of Decan and says she saw you there when the refugees were

23     expelled.  We saw the testimony of Mr. Mazrekaj who said that you gave

24     the order for villagers to leave Istinic.  We also saw an OSCE report

25     which has the same claim that you were the one who ordered Albanian

Page 13381

 1     refugees to leave Istinic and head to Albania, and now we are looking at

 2     a villager from Ljumbarda, another village in Decani who says that

 3     police -- he was forced out of the municipality right in front of your

 4     OUP, he was beaten and by police officers and other Serbs in your

 5     presence.

 6             Now, sir, can you explain why all these sources will have these

 7     allegations involving you in expulsions and mistreatment of Albanians in

 8     the period of the end of March, early April?  Can you explain why it is

 9     that these different sources contain these allegations about you?

10        A.   Well, it's something normal.  Everyone knew me.  I was born in

11     the area, so whatever untruths they wished to say and misinformation,

12     they would connect that to me.  These are all statements which they wrote

13     on the basis of their assumption or something that somebody instructed

14     them to do.  You could have collected more than one hundred such

15     statements that would claim one in the same thing.  They were directed to

16     talk in this way and to place all the burden on the people and the army

17     and the police and the state and all the other organs of the Republic of

18     Serbia so that they would represent only what is bad, what is black, not

19     anything that is good.  These statements are incorrect.  I'm telling you

20     that.  They are arbitrary and they have no weight.  And this is simply

21     not true.  It is a pure untruth.

22        Q.   Sir, I put to you that the reason these different people and also

23     the OSCE have referred to these allegations about you is because you

24     were, in fact, not only aware that the villagers were being expelled from

25     different villages in Decani municipality, but that you were yourself

Page 13382

 1     involved in these expulsions?  That is the reason, sir, why these

 2     different sources all point to you.

 3        A.   Well, that was their goal all along.  They wanted to make

 4     connections that are not true and to state allegations against certain

 5     people that are not true.  I would not expect them to praise me.  There

 6     are people who are praising me even among the Albanians, and they are

 7     telling the truth.  These Albanians were instructed and trained to talk

 8     in this way.  Somebody taught them to say something that is not true and

 9     that is unfavourable for someone else.  I cannot really realise how you

10     can conclude that there is any truth in this only on the basis of such

11     statements.  I could also tell all kinds of fabrications, but that's not

12     real testimony.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have this last statement marked for

14     identification, Your Honour, this is 06102.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P01588 marked for

17     identification, Your Honour.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:

19        Q.   Sir, did you hear any allegations from any source that the police

20     in your OUP were extremely violent and involved in persecutory acts

21     against Kosovo Albanians?  Did you hear that?

22        A.   No, I do not have such information nor did I hear that from

23     anyone.

24        Q.   And did you hear any allegations that you were present when

25     Kosovo Albanians were beaten at your police station?

Page 13383

 1        A.   That is an utter untruth, because I would never allow anything

 2     that was illegal to be done in my presence.  Only things that were in

 3     accordance with the law could be done.

 4        Q.   I want to show you another article, another document.  And this

 5     is P1572.  And this is an article from a Serbian periodical called "Nin".

 6     Have you seen this document before, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I have seen it.

 8        Q.   Where have you seen it, sir?

 9        A.   I saw it in "Nin."  Natasa Kandic wrote it as far as I can

10     remember.  It was something that wasn't true.  She always dealt only in

11     untruths and arbitrary unconfirmed data.  I read it in "Nin" when I was

12     still down there in Kosovo.

13        Q.   So you saw this article when it came out in January 1999?

14        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't remember right now, but I did read

15     it.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to go to page 3 of the English and

17     it's also page 3 of the B/C/S.

18        Q.   I'm going to read a passage from this article to you, sir, and

19     it's in the bottom of the English and also in the bottom of the B/C/S.

20     It's a paragraph beginning with a reference to Beqir Cacaj 50, from

21     Decani.

22             "Died on 8th June following the torture to which he was exposed

23     to in the last days in the police station in town.  Cacaj was arrested on

24     28th May in the time when unrests were taking place in Decani and when he

25     was attempting to run away from the town with the rest of his family and

Page 13384

 1     neighbours.  The following days, in several turns, he was interrogated

 2     and then brought back to the prison cell with obvious signs of torture.

 3     According to witness allegations, Vukmir Mircic, police commander in

 4     Decani police station participated in torture of Cacaj, and he hindered

 5     the transfer to the medical facility."

 6             Have you heard anything about this case, sir?  About a person

 7     with the name of Beqir Cacaj being tortured at your police station?  I

 8     see you are smiling.

 9        A.   I'm not smiling because of such incorrect statement, I'm

10     surprised by such articles because really the Cacajs who were living

11     quite close to the OUP they were our good friends and neighbours, to call

12     them that way, including Osman and everyone else.  They were elderly men.

13     So I cannot understand how anyone could write such an article, which is

14     not true, calls me a commander, I'm not a commander.  So it's clear that

15     it's all a fabrication.  It's all something that would create a bad image

16     of the members of the Serbian MUP and the Republic of Serbia itself.  It

17     has nothing to do with what I'm testifying about here.

18             Really, this is why I'm smiling.  This is astonishing when you

19     see something like that which is not true.  And that includes many other

20     documents which I have seen.

21        Q.   Sir, you've told us that you saw this article at the time, you

22     said you remembered reading this article in "Nin".  Did you inquire at

23     the time why -- let me finish my question.  At the time when you read

24     this, did you make any inquiries as to why it was that "Nin" was

25     publishing this sort of allegations about your OUP and about you

Page 13385

 1     specifically?

 2        A.   No, I did not because I knew all along that it was not true and

 3     that they are fabricating that.  Why would I inquire?  If I were

 4     inquiring, that would mean that I was believing the untruth which was

 5     published here.  I would be frightened by something.  I did not even pay

 6     any attention to it because I knew the real truth and it was that none of

 7     this was true.  If one inquires, it means there is something about it.

 8     There's something wrong.  He may have done something, and here one can

 9     see that there are some things which are really over the top.  They are

10     really over the limit, even of any untruth.  Because this was a family,

11     the Cacaj family were all my friends and neighbours, Beqir, Osman, and

12     Suljo.  I visited their house, I sat around with them.  They stayed

13     there, they remained there.  Even when we left the place they stayed in

14     their houses.  So this is really an utter untruth that certain

15     journalists and authors dealt in.  You know that journalists write all

16     kinds of things.  You can put anything on paper.

17        Q.   Sir, you've told us earlier when I showed you other statements,

18     when I put them to you, you said that these Albanians were instructed and

19     trained to talk in that way, someone told them to say something that is

20     not true and unfavourable for someone else.  Now here we're looking at a

21     Serbian publication, why it is that periodicals such as "Nin" would

22     contain allegations like this about you?

23        A.   Well, I guess you are aware that it happens today various kinds

24     of papers publish all kinds of allegations, not just against me, but

25     against politicians and anyone else.  It's the free press, they can

Page 13386

 1     publish whatever they want.  But I never made any conclusions on the

 2     basis of what the newspapers publish or what the journalists may decide

 3     to write.

 4        Q.   Do you recall an inspector by the name of Zita in your OUP or

 5     known as Zita?

 6        A.   How did you say his name was?

 7        Q.   Z-i-t-a.  He was known by that name.

 8        A.   I did not have an inspector with that name.  I did not have any

 9     inspectors in the civilian section of my OUP.

10        Q.   [Microphone not activated] ... inspectors in other sections of

11     the police in Decani?

12        A.   Inspectors were in the Djakovica SUP, also in the Pec SUP.  I

13     could have had inspectors but these working posts were never fulfilled.

14     I did not have civilian inspectors.

15        Q.   I want to show you one last statement, sir.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  This is 06100.

17        Q.   This is a statement by someone called Azem Zukaj.  Do you know

18     someone by the name of Azem Zukaj, sir?

19        A.   I think the surname was not pronounced properly.

20        Q.   [Microphone not activated] ... up on the screen.  It's also

21     misspelled.  It's Z-u-k-a-j.

22        A.   Yes, Zukaj, that's right.  There were many Zukajs in the

23     territory of the Decani municipality in several villages.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  I believe we have the wrong exhibit on the screen.

25     65 ter 6100.

Page 13387

 1        Q.   Now, this is a person from the village of Beleg in Decani

 2     municipality, and he speaks about events in 1998 and about being arrested

 3     by the police.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Is there a problem with the exhibit?  I don't see

 5     it coming up.

 6        Q.   While that is coming up, I'll --

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  I see we are having a technical problem.  If we

 8     could go to page 3.

 9        Q.   And I'm going read in the middle of the page.  This person --

10     just to summarise, sir, because we can't read the whole statement.  He is

11     speaking about being detained.  The next page in the -- if we could have

12     the Serbian up.  In the middle of the page he says:

13             "I saw Vula Mircic came four times to the MUP.  He would enter

14     the room where I was and told policemen to take me to the Rugova gorge

15     and kill me there."

16             He also said that he had been looking for me since 1992 as I was

17     the second Adem Jashari.  He speaks about being taken there and then

18     being brought back to the place where he was being detained, and then he

19     says:

20             "When Vula Mircic came for the third time, he brought the

21     document which accused me of killing two policemen:  Rade and Nikola

22     Popovic from Sabac, Serbia.  He also accused me of having a weapon

23     without permission.  He handed that document to them and they started

24     torturing me with electric shock.  I was ordered to sit on the electric

25     chair and they would low and raise the current.  They also put electric

Page 13388

 1     wire in my ears.  It lasted for 15 minutes.  This torture was too much

 2     pain, too painful.  Beating was nothing compared to it."

 3             And this is an incident, sir, that takes place in June of 1998.

 4     Do you recall this, sir, being present when this person was being

 5     tortured?  I see this amuses you.

 6        A.   The person was not at the OUP at all, nor was he tortured, nor

 7     were any measures taken.  Electric chair, the wires, electrical shocks,

 8     do you know what electric chair means?  Nobody ever had anything like

 9     that in the Republic of Serbia.  We are not criminals who did things like

10     that, and do you know where Rugovska Klisura is located?  This is a pure

11     fabrication.  He was instructed to do that so that he would accuse me

12     because knowing me because I was born there and I lived there together

13     with these people a long time, they wanted to connect me with these

14     crimes to accuse me of that, but they were instructed to do that and this

15     is done with a purpose, the taking of such statements probably with

16     someone's assistance.  This is a pure fabrication, the arrest and being

17     brought into custody, taking him to Rugovska Klisura bringing him back,

18     it has nothing to do with the truth.  There is no Rugovska Klisura in my

19     area.  It's the first time I see this, the first time I hear about it,

20     and I'm really surprised to see such untruths, but once again, I have to

21     say that the untruths and lies are directed against the members of the

22     MUP and myself and the state of Serbia, just in order to show that we are

23     some sort of criminals, and it has nothing to do with this statement.

24     This is really a fabrication, and it is completely untrue.

25        Q.   Now, sir, I've shown you over this last half an hour or so now

Page 13389

 1     it's been six different sources, witness statements from several

 2     different people originating from different villages, a Serbian

 3     periodical, and OSCE report, all of these sources indicate that you were

 4     involved in persecutory acts against Albanians and violence against

 5     Albanians and also expulsions of Albanians from the Decani municipality.

 6     Now, sir, why would all these different sources contain such allegations

 7     if they were not true, sir?

 8        A.   They are not true because in that municipality it was a general

 9     practice amongst the Albanians to assign such activities to people they

10     knew, to people who were officers or -- and this was simply with the

11     intention to damage them or inflict them some harm.  Whereas, this had

12     nothing to do with the truth.  As I told you earlier, you could have

13     hundreds of statements of this kind because I was born in that area, I

14     worked there, I worked there in a legal fashion, and in line with the

15     regulations of the Republic of Serbia and the Ministry of the Interior

16     and all of a sudden you have this scenario which leads us in an entirely

17     different direction, and it has nothing to do with the truth.

18        Q.   And, sir, can you explain why it that so many different people

19     and also OSCE and the Serbian periodical would want to fabricate things

20     about you and damage your reputation?  What would be the purpose of that,

21     sir?  Why would so many different people want to damage your reputation

22     and make these allegations?

23        A.   This didn't only have to do with me, this was a general practice

24     in Kosovo and Metohija.  They knew this they had to --

25        Q.   Sir, sir, I'm asking specifically about you.  Why would all these

Page 13390

 1     different people whose evidence I've put to you and also this publication

 2     in OSCE want to damage your reputation and fabricate these sort of

 3     allegations about you.  I'm speaking specifically about you.  Can you

 4     explain that?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.  Well, through me because they knew me as SUP chief,

 6     they wanted to paint a black picture about me and thus also about the

 7     ministry and the entire republic.  So this was the core of such

 8     statements.  So they didn't know any other chief because I was there, I

 9     was born there, so it was the simplest thing to say, oh, the chief was

10     there and they quoted my name.  Probably they couldn't recall any other

11     name.  And I always had very good relations with the Albanians.  I was

12     born there, I lived my entire life there as an adolescent, as a boy.  And

13     the situation which we had at that time was very different, and people

14     were instructed, they were coached to give these kinds of statements and

15     whoever took these statements also coached them to tell those things

16     which were not true.

17        Q.   Sir, isn't the real reason why all these sources speak about you

18     in connection with these events is that it's not because they wanted to

19     paint a black picture of you but because you were actually involved in

20     the events that you -- that these different sources are saying that you

21     took part in?  Isn't that the real reason, sir?

22        A.   No, it isn't, and it isn't true.  And I can also tell you that

23     lady Visaj, well, a woman, it is quite clear that in her statement she

24     mentions me, she couldn't know me.  It is not a tradition among the

25     Albanian women to have any contacts with men.  So it is quite clear that

Page 13391

 1     she was instructed to say that, and the same applies to all the other

 2     statements.

 3        Q.   Very well, sir.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

 5     witness.  Before I conclude, I wanted to have the last exhibit 06100

 6     MFI'd, marked for identification.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P01589 marked for

 9     identification, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Ms. Kravetz.

11             Mr. Popovic.

12             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Popovic:

14        Q.   Mr. Mircic, we will, first of all, go back to some of the

15     documents that were shown to you by my learned colleague Madam Kravetz

16     during your testimony yesterday.

17             MR. POPOVIC:  [Interpretation] First of all, if we could please

18     see on the screen the Exhibit D107.

19        Q.   Mr. Mircic, you already talked about this exhibit, so this is a

20     dispatch dated 20th of October, 1998, sent by the ministry staff, and it

21     has to do with the decision by the minister concerning certain awards for

22     every single day that PJP members spent in the field.  You were asked

23     some questions concerning this document.  I would just like to clarify

24     one thing.  First of all, within your OUP, did you have any lists in

25     which you would register all the members of your OUP?

Page 13392

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In those lists, did you also put down where these members were on

 3     a given day?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So you had the records concerning the members of OUP and PJP

 6     members when they were deployed for different tasks?

 7        A.   Yes, I had such records but I didn't know where they went to

 8     carry out their tasks.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Were you informed when they came back when they were

10     supposed to be given their regular tasks again?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And was it in line with this dispatch that you can see on the

13     screen and the decision by the minister that we spoke about based on the

14     number of days that they spent as members of PJP, were these people

15     supposed to receive awards?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me, members of PJPs from your OUPs,

18     when they were not deployed, did they carry out their regular police

19     duties?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was there a difference between that and the time when they were

22     deployed?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can you explain.

25        A.   When they were deployed as members of PJP, they carry out

Page 13393

 1     particular tasks in the field, so anti-terrorist actions and other

 2     security related actions in the field.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now go back to another document that you

 4     were shown previously.  It had to do with the Sat action.  My question

 5     for you is as follows:  Did Sat action encompass regular tasks and duties

 6     from the department of public security?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did you participate in the implementation of that action

 9     within the remit of your regular duties?

10        A.   Yes.  Members of my police participated in it.

11        Q.   And did you report the SUP chief in Djakovica about this?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you know who the Djakovica SUP chief reported to?

14        A.   The Djakovica SUP chief reported to the police administration at

15     the seat of the ministry and if he deemed this to be necessary, he could

16     have reported to the MUP staff as well, given that it existed and it had

17     the general jurisdiction over the security in Kosovo and Metohija.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Why the police administration at the seat of the

19     ministry?

20        A.   Because the police administration would then inform the staff

21     about an action that was carried out.

22        Q.   And was the police administration in charge of the Sat action?

23        A.   Yes, it was exclusively the responsibility of the police

24     administration.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you were also shown various documents, P698

Page 13394

 1     and P1043, that had to do with meetings of SUP chiefs with certain

 2     persons from the staff.  And I believe in one occasion, the P1043

 3     testifies about a meeting that the minister himself also attending.  Can

 4     you tell me whether you attended those meetings yourself?

 5        A.   I never attending any of those meetings.

 6        Q.   Certain questions were put to you concerning plans that were

 7     discussed in those meetings.  Can you tell me whether at any time during

 8     the course of 1998 you yourself drafted any plans for counter-terrorist

 9     or anti-terrorist activities?

10        A.   The OUP Decani never drafted any plans.

11        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see any such plans?

12        A.   No, because I wasn't involved with their drafting so I also did

13     not have an opportunity to see them.

14        Q.   And do you know what was the communication like between SUP chief

15     and staff concerning those plans?

16        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  During the course of today, my learned colleague

18     showed you some statements and she also asked you why would all these

19     persons who gave those statements say all these things about you.  You

20     also saw the statement by Mr. Mazrekaj.  Do you recall that statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You said that Mazrekaj was a member of the local security?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Were members of the local security faced with any problems with

25     KLA after they signed the agreement?

Page 13395

 1        A.   Before the agreement they had fewer problems, but after that

 2     quite a few members of the local security were also killed, among them

 3     Elis Bajlaj, also one Cekaj and Hadajdjorno from the village of

 4     Prekoluka.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the exhibit, it

 7     used to be on 65 ter list of the Prosecution, 06100, but it has been

 8     MFI'd in the meantime, and now it's 1589 MFI.  Could we please see page 2

 9     of this document, if I'm not mistaken.

10        Q.   Mr. Mircic, so this is the person who gave the statement

11     concerning the electric chair.  You heard about this from my learned

12     colleague.  Here on page 2 in the middle of the page you can see:  "My

13     brother Skender and I were members of the KLA."  Could you tell me

14     whether members of the KLA had any motive to say things of this kind

15     about you?

16        A.   Well, as I said, this was a general occurrence.  They tried to

17     present our work as illegal.  They tried to include as many information

18     as this in various statement and in the various media reports.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Also you could see the book:  "As Seen As Told," if

20     I'm not mistaken, that was the title.  That book was published by the

21     Humanitarian Law Fund, Madam Natasa Kandic, the same person who, as you

22     said, published that article in "Nin".  Could you tell me whether any

23     criminal report was ever filed against you by anybody for the allegations

24     quoted in that article?

25        A.   Throughout my working life until the moment when I retired, I

Page 13396

 1     never had any criminal report or any disciplinary report or disciplinary

 2     measure instituted against me.

 3        Q.   And my final question for you:  In that "Nin" article, certain

 4     Mr. Zukaj answered --

 5        A.   Cacaj.

 6        Q.   Cacaj was also mentioned.  Do you know what happened to that

 7     person?  Was he alive at the time when you left Kosovo?

 8        A.   All of them were alive.  This is a very respected family in

 9     Decani.  They lived 100 metres away from the police station.  I can

10     mention a number of other families as well, so again, this was Natasha

11     Kandic publishing untruths in "Nin," and I believe that she also sided

12     with the KLA herself.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  And now my final question:  In your

14     testimony you said that there were also persons of Albanian nationality

15     who could say many positive things about you, but could you tell us what

16     is happening, are you in touch with those persons?

17        A.   I have been in touch with many Albanians from the area of Decani

18     up to this very day, and some of them have attempted to write a book

19     about what truly happened there and they have asked for my assistance.

20     So people can see that many untruthful things have been said about events

21     in the field and that certain persons simply tried to paint the picture

22     of Serbs as villains and criminals in that area.

23        Q.   And just one more question, Mr. Mircic.  Have you ever been

24     contacted by anybody in relation to the situation in Istinic and what

25     happened there?

Page 13397

 1        A.   No, I was never contacted by anybody.

 2        Q.   I'm talking about the events of 1998 and members of the Albanian

 3     nationality.  Have they ever contacted you?

 4        A.   You mean later on?

 5        Q.   Yes, later on, after everything ended the way it did?

 6        A.   Yes, they have contacted me.  They told me that they are still

 7     grateful up to this very day about the way we organised this and how we

 8     managed to do this in this humanitarian way based on our mutual

 9     confidence and they believed that I have done a lot for the Albanians

10     within the remit of my responsibility that I had at the time.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, with this

12     I have completed my redirect examination.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

14             We will have the second break now and resume -- before we do,

15     Mr. Djordjevic.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honours,

17     given that the Defence this morning received the Court's decision

18     concerning the report by expert Stankovic and expert Aleksandar Pavic, I

19     believe it might be wise in view of the decision of the counsel to

20     postpone the Stankovic testimony until tomorrow morning.  So this is our

21     motion, and this is why I stood up before we left for the second break.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber agrees, Mr. Djordjevic, in the

24     circumstances, that it would be more practical not to commence the next

25     witness today but to commence his evidence tomorrow morning so that you

Page 13398

 1     need not concern yourself immediately with the calling of the next

 2     witness.

 3             The Chamber, though, will now adjourn and resume at five minutes

 4     past 1.00.  There may be some questions for this witness.  We will have a

 5     break now and resume at five past 1.00.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Mircic, I would like to get some

12     clarifications in respect of some answers you were able to give to the

13     Prosecution.  Today, and you did that repeatedly, you stated again, "and

14     I always had very good relations with the Albanians.  I was born there, I

15     lived my entire life there as an adolescent and as a boy."  This is

16     understandable, but can you tell me what is this source, the background

17     of your statement, "it was the general practice amongst the Albanians to

18     assign such activities to people they knew."  You don't receive

19     interpretation?

20             I would like to understand your statement, "it was a general

21     practice amongst the Albanians to assign such activities to people they

22     knew."  What is the background of this statement?  How do you know that

23     this is a general practice of the Albanians?

24        A.   If you had in mind the issues that pertained to me, since I used

25     to work in the state security, I have to tell you that even before 1997

Page 13399

 1     and 1998 we used to arrest a lot of persons from Decani area who had been

 2     involved in the terrorist activities, so a number of them were brought to

 3     trial and sentenced and their motive was to tell stories like that.  For

 4     example, people from the families of Nazereti, Cekaj, Petolaj [phoen] and

 5     other families.  So a lot of it has do with the statements that they

 6     gave.  We have been working on combatting terrorism from the early 1990s,

 7     so I can tell you many facts about the persons from that area.  They had

 8     family ties among them, and this in a way is their way of getting back.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, I don't understand that, that you are on

10     one hand tell us that you have wonderful and good relation to the

11     Albanians, but that you was in the position to observe that it was a

12     general practice amongst the Albanians to assign such activities to

13     people they knew like you.  I don't understand that.  Don't you see the

14     slight contradiction?

15        A.   I will explain.  Loyal Albanians, honest Albanians, Albanians who

16     did not violate the law while I was still working in the 1980s and in the

17     1990s, I had no problem with them.  And this does not pertain just to

18     Albanians, it pertains to Serbs as well.  You know that the police

19     everywhere in the world works in accordance with the law, with the rules

20     of service, with the constitution and so on, so at that time we worked

21     out in the ground in Decani municipality, and there were a lot of illegal

22     groups active in that area.

23             In 1995 and in 1996 there were numerous attacks on the branch

24     station in Rznic, terrorist attacks using mortars, hand-grenades, and

25     other weaponry, so we had to undertake measures against these people.  We

Page 13400

 1     had to identify them, we had to use certain repressive measures to bring

 2     them in, to bring them to trial.  And the Albanians have very close links

 3     between them, so if there are any family ties by marriage or blood ties,

 4     you automatically spread that opinion among everybody in your family.

 5     And that did not concern only me.  It also concerned my colleagues

 6     Albanians who used to work with me.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do I understand you correctly that you are not

 8     only referring to Albanians but to Serbs as well?  Because you were

 9     referring to a practice in every country of the world where the police

10     has a certain task, this is not always popular.  Do I understand that

11     correctly?

12        A.   Yes.  Well, let me give you an example.  For example, by

13     detaining Jovanovic who had committed a grave murder by killing four

14     persons in Decani, that alone, by doing that alone I created a lot of

15     enemies.  People were angry that I didn't conceal that.  Why didn't I

16     conceal that murder?  And the man had killed four Albanians, two couples.

17     So there's now a whole group of Serbs who hate me for that, Serbs who

18     have family ties to the man.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand that, but why did you say this

20     morning it was a general practice amongst the Albanians to assign such

21     activities to people they knew?  You were only referring to Albanians but

22     now I understood your answer.

23        A.   Well, yes, because we took certain measures.  We arrested people

24     in 1980s, and 1990s.  My area was quite active when it comes to security

25     issues.  They were spreading flyers, they were writing slogans and

Page 13401

 1     graffiti.  They were infiltrating illegal groups from Albania, and we

 2     acted against those people, and all of these families were from the area

 3     of Decani municipality.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Another question.  The Prosecution

 5     has put a lot of previous statements of different people to you this

 6     morning, and you repeatedly said they were instructed to give these

 7     statements.  What do you mean with they were instructed?  Who did

 8     instruct them?  Could you explain that a little bit further, please.

 9        A.   Well, if you just take the statements that I saw as an example,

10     from those families, there were members that we used to arrest in the

11     1980s, and 1990s, people who had participated in demonstrations, who were

12     members of terrorist groups.  For example, Mazrekaj has 500 people in

13     their family, 500 family members and some other family may have 200

14     members, and one of these women who gave a statement, Visaj, she could

15     not have given that kind of a statement on her own.  She is illiterate.

16     Somebody coached her how she should phrase her statement, how she should

17     describe me so that I could be described in that statement.  Why was

18     there nothing true in that statement.  Maybe if there were people from

19     Istinic who could have given you a different story, who could have told

20     you about how we helped them, how we helped them by confiscating weapons

21     in that family, and that would have been a positive example.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Mircic, I take it from your answer that you

23     are referring to the families of those people who gave these statements?

24     They were instructed by their families; is that what you're saying?

25        A.   Yes, the families, the families coached them to do this due to

Page 13402

 1     some earlier police action against those families.  So this would be a

 2     kind of a revenge on their part.  You know, that the police, the

 3     judiciary, and the prosecutor's work, none of us are really popular.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That was it.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Mircic, I direct your mind to the evidence you

 6     gave as respect to the OSCE.  Now, you said you had good co-operation

 7     with all the verifiers who came to see you and you always had good

 8     discussions with them, didn't you?

 9        A.   Yes, I had a correct attitude.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you, yes.  You also stated though that you

11     had information that the verifiers were biased in favour of the KLA --

12     sorry -- shall I repeat that for you?  Shall I repeat that for you?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  The verifiers were biased in favour of the KLA

15     terrorist groups, and you had confirmed information that they provided

16     the KLA with information about your forces and positions and you said,

17     well, in a way they were providing logistical support to the KLA.  Yes?

18        A.   Correct.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  But tell me, did you ever confront the OSCE

20     authorities with this information?  Did you ever go to them and say, look

21     here, you know, your people on the ground, you know, they're been biased,

22     they aren't performing according to the mandate?  Did you complain to the

23     authorities of the OSCE about that?

24        A.   In my contacts with OSCE and my contacts with them were extremely

25     good, and they were always in accordance with the instructions we

Page 13403

 1     received from the ministry.  I was always very correct.  I provided them

 2     all of the information that they were interested in.  However, they

 3     abused our assistance and the information they received from us, and they

 4     portrayed things differently than they should have realistically.  In the

 5     village of Jablanica where Ramush Haradinaj was and the mere contact that

 6     the OSCE had with Ramush Haradinaj was sufficient enough to make certain

 7     conclusions, and I had verified information that they were providing to

 8     Ramush Haradinaj information about our forces, the disposition of our

 9     forces on the like.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Splendid.  But my question to you is, having

11     received this information, you are now in possession of information that

12     the verifiers are acting in a biased manner.  They are -- they are not

13     carrying out the mandate.  Did you complain to the OSCE authorities about

14     that ever?

15        A.   No.  My job was to write a report and to send it to the chief of

16     the secretariat of the Djakovica SUP.  That was my task.

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  Do you know whether a complaint was ever lodged

18     with the OSCE authorities on this matter at all?

19        A.   I don't know about that, but I did inform the chief of the

20     secretariat, and I don't know what he did in turn.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.  Now, you also said on the question of

22     the OSCE, you said that you followed through an instructional dispatch on

23     how to treat OSCE members on their diplomatic status, on the necessity to

24     treat them fairly and to provide them with the conditions necessary for

25     their work.

Page 13404

 1        A.   Yes, but I would have done it even without any instructions, I'm

 2     simply such a man.

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  Splendid.  Splendid.  Did you ever require the OSCE

 4     members to give you advance notice if they wanted to carry out an

 5     inspection?

 6        A.   I didn't.  If they thought it necessary, they could have come to

 7     see me, but they also could have gone somewhere without me knowing about

 8     that.  They did not need to ask any sort of consent from me in order to

 9     carry out an inspection.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very of much.  And one last question,

11     Mr. Mircic.  Now, you said that depleted uranium was used during the NATO

12     campaign, didn't you?  You said that the bombs were very destructive?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  Were the population told about the depleted uranium

15     at the time of the bombing?

16        A.   Well, misinformation was circulated in the media, however, it was

17     not confirmed.  However, after 2000 and nowadays, many things, many

18     pieces of information are being confirmed about the use of depleted

19     uranium at the time.

20             JUDGE BAIRD:  So at the time of the actual bombing, there was no

21     confirmed information as respects depleted uranium?

22        A.   Not to my knowledge, but I'm not an expert.  I didn't hear

23     anybody confirming anything, but they are confirming it now.  The sources

24     from Kosovo and Metohija and many experts there are now saying that

25     depleted uranium was used there.

Page 13405

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Mircic, I thank you very much indeed.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  That completes the questions for you, Mr. Mircic.

 5     I would like to thank you for your attendance here and for the assistance

 6     you have been able to give.  You may now, of course, return to your

 7     normal activities, and a Court Officer will show you from the court.

 8     Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Is there any matter that needs to be dealt with at

12     this point before we adjourn?  Ms. Kravetz?  Mr. Djordjevic or

13     Mr. Popovic?  Very well, we will adjourn then and resume tomorrow at 9.00

14     a.m.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.25 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

17                           March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.