Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13779

 1                           Thursday, 22 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5                          [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Please sit down.  I'd remind you of the

 9     affirmation you made to tell the truth which still applies.

10             Now, Mr. Popovic.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           WITNESS:  RADISLAV STALEVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Popovic:  [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Stalevic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   We'll continue where we left off yesterday.  My last question to

18     you and your last answer yesterday were related to the information you

19     received from Mr. Trajkovic, about his contacts with the gentleman called

20     Mrgud, and the information that he had passed to Djordjevic, namely the

21     fact that the minister's decision was being awaited about the admission

22     of those men.  What happened next?

23        A.   While we were waiting for the minister's decision to admit these

24     men into the reserve force, it became already certain that the NATO

25     aggression was going forward and it indeed began on the 23rd and the

Page 13780

 1     24th, and our unit was at that moment relocated for the purposes of our

 2     next assignment in the area of Kursumlija heading for Podujevo.

 3        Q.   What about that reserve force of the MUP, was it seconded to your

 4     unit?

 5        A.   No, it was not at that time.

 6        Q.   Can you explain to us what happened, why wasn't it seconded, and

 7     how the situation developed from the beginning of the NATO aggression?

 8        A.   With the beginning of the NATO aggression, we went forward with

 9     the operation that had been planned for that period and we set out after

10     passing Krpina village we reached Bradas village, and as we arrived there

11     we stopped to link up our units.  On the 26th in the evening, Trajkovic

12     left.  I don't know where.  It was 10.00 or 11.00, I'm not sure when

13     Trajkovic called me on the radio and told me to wait for him on the road

14     leading from Podujevo via Krpina village towards Bradas.  I took my car

15     with the driver and Dr. Markovic and went down to the road.  The

16     Krpina-Podujevo road, and my car went ahead of the commander's vehicle.

17     In that other vehicle there were the commander, his driver, and some

18     other persons.

19             Some 50 to 60 metres from the place from which I started to meet

20     him, I saw in the rear view mirror an explosion, and I heard the

21     explosion, and I saw thick black smoke.  I stopped immediately, got out

22     of my car, and I saw that the vehicle driving behind me, the vehicle of

23     my commander Trajkovic was there.  Dr. Markovic got out of the car with

24     me.  And I saw the commander lying by the road in some gully filled with

25     water.  I approached to see what was wrong with him.  He said his neck

Page 13781

 1     was hurting, he was injured, and next to him there was Zoran Basrak,

 2     member of the special unit, and Nikola Pedovic [phoen] an analyst working

 3     with Mr. Trajkovic and Radovan Aleksic who had been the driver of

 4     Commander Trajkovic.

 5             The doctor started administering first aid immediately first to

 6     Radovan Aleksic but then he realised the man was dead.  After that we

 7     organised transport for our injured colleagues and the commander to the

 8     Pristina hospital for a check-up and transport for the body of Radovan

 9     Aleksic to the forensic department of the hospital for a postmortem.

10             When they left for Pristina, I was called by Dragan Markovic,

11     my physician, saying that Mr. Trajkovic had light injuries and that he

12     would go to the MUP staff in Pristina for combatting terrorism.

13        Q.   Before we go on, let's clarify one thing.  When you talk about

14     the time between 10.00 and 11.00 saying that Trajkovic called you on the

15     radio and told you to meet him on the road leading from Podujevo via

16     Krpina village towards Bradas, what date was it?

17        A.   Your question was not quite precise.  Trajkovic called us on our

18     own radio communication.  It was 10.00, 11.00 in the morning.  It was not

19     the Pristina-Bradas road, it was between Krpina and Bradas.  On the 26th,

20     Trajkovic left to go somewhere, and the incident I described was on the

21     27th of March, 1999.

22        Q.   Could you now tell us what happened after you received this

23     information about the injuries to Commander Trajkovic?

24        A.   When I was told that he was only lightly injured and that he

25     would be able to go to the staff, on the same day, the 27th, Trajkovic

Page 13782

 1     and the doctor Dragan Markovic returned to the police department of

 2     Podujevo, which was located just outside Podujevo.  He came and told us

 3     that he had been at the staff and that the staff had decided that the

 4     reserve unit from Prolom Banja would join us in Podujevo, and he ordered

 5     Simovic, commander of the special anti-terrorist unit Belgrade, to go and

 6     to reach an agreement and make arrangements about bringing that reserve

 7     unit of the MUP.

 8        Q.   We need to clarify something for the record.  This police

 9     department OUP Podujevo, where was it at that moment?

10        A.   On the 27th when we arrived from Bradas, the OUP Podujevo had

11     been relocated from its normal peacetime location and it was -- its new

12     location was close by to its normal peacetime location.  I as the

13     commander of the SAJ came to that new location of the OUP, that's where

14     our headquarters was.

15        Q.   To be quite precise, this new location was in Podujevo itself?

16        A.   50, 70 metres from the normal location of OUP Podujevo.

17        Q.   We had to clarify because it was not quite clear in the record.

18     Tell me about that meeting you had with Trajkovic after he returned to

19     Podujevo on the 27th.  What exactly did Trajkovic tell you and Simovic at

20     that meeting?

21        A.   Well, on that day, that afternoon on the 27th when he came, he

22     said he had received approval from the MUP staff to bring in this reserve

23     force of the MUP the next day, that is the 28th.  He instructed Simovic

24     to go to Prolom Banja and agree about bringing in that reserve force of

25     the MUP to Podujevo.

Page 13783

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did he instruct Simovic to make contact with anyone

 2     in Prolom Banja who would be the contact person for bringing these

 3     people?

 4        A.   I was present at that meeting when the commander, Mr. Trajkovic,

 5     gave instructions to Simovic to go to Prolom Banja and to look for one

 6     certain Slobodan Medic.

 7        Q.   Now, tell us what happened next.  Did Commander Trajkovic remain

 8     in Podujevo?

 9        A.   No, he did not remain in Podujevo that evening because his own

10     driver had been killed, he told us that he would go to organise the

11     funeral of the late Aleksic, and then he set out for Belgrade.  And

12     Simovic also left at the same time with him because it was in the same

13     direction, Belgrade and this hotel in Prolom Banja where these reservists

14     were accommodated.  We are talking still about the 27th March, 1999.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did ultimately members of the reserve force arrive in

16     Podujevo and how?

17        A.   On the 27th Simovic went to talk to them in Prolom Banja, and on

18     that day they did not arrive.  Simovic went again the next day, the 28th,

19     to Prolom Banja, and brought them in the morning of the 28th.

20        Q.   Where were you when the reservists arrived?

21        A.   When this reserve force of the MUP arrived, I was in this new

22     location of OUP Podujevo very close to the normal location of the OUP,

23     and I was there with Dr. Dragan Markovic.

24        Q.   And what happened next?

25        A.   After awhile, Simovic, the commander of the Belgrade SAJ came to

Page 13784

 1     that new location of the OUP and there was with him an unfamiliar person

 2     who introduced himself as Boca.  They came into the headquarters and they

 3     sat down with me there, and Dr. Markovic was still there.  And 30 minutes

 4     or so later we heard short volleys of automatic fire.  And then I don't

 5     remember any more who ran out first, was it Dr. Markovic or was it

 6     Simovic, but they ran out of the building of the headquarters, and we ran

 7     out towards the place where these volleys had come from.

 8             I remained in the headquarters, together with this man Boca.

 9     I don't know whether there was anyone still there, but Boca and I

10     remained at the headquarters.

11        Q.   At that time did you know what was happening and what was this

12     all about?

13        A.   I didn't know what was happening, but through radio

14     communication, I heard that there were injured people.  Shortly

15     thereafter when we heard there were injured people through radio

16     communication, Dr. Dragan Markovic called me and told me that there were

17     injured civilians, and that they should be transported to hospital to

18     receive medical assistance.

19              I gave my vehicle and my driver sent to the place where

20     assistance was needed, and I organised the transport of these

21     civilians to a hospital in Pristina.

22        Q.   Where were you during all this time that you are talking about?

23        A.   I was on the premises of this staff, which was in the close

24     proximity of the OUP, as I said, 50 to 70 metres.  And with me there was

25     this person called Boca.  So that was the OUP premises where the staff

Page 13785

 1     was accommodated.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What happened next?

 3        A.   After some 30 or 40 minutes, Commander Simovic came to the staff

 4     premises and instructed Boca, this person Boca, to go towards Podujevo to

 5     put people on the buses and to return them to Prolom Banja from where

 6     they had come.  As soon as they boarded the buses, Simovic went together

 7     with them from Podujevo towards Prolom Banja.

 8        Q.   Can we just go back a little.  When Simovic arrived in the office

 9     where you and Boca were, what did he tell you?

10        A.   Simovic told Boca that members of this MUP reserve force had

11     killed some civilians and that my Dr. Markovic went there to offer them

12     assistance, and because of that he shouted at Boca and told him to get on

13     the buses and to go back from where they had come from.

14             As soon as he came in and after he told Boca to get on the bus

15     and return his men back, while I was still there at the OUP command

16     post, before that, as soon as he came in he reported this to the

17     police station, or rather, the person who was in charge of that OUP.

18     After that, after he had decided to send the reserve forces back, he

19     informed the MUP staff for terrorism -- anti-terrorism in Pristina.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, what happened after that, or rather, at that

21     moment, did you know how many people had been injured?

22        A.   After these men boarded the buses and Simovic sent Medic back,

23     Dr. Markovic came to the staff headquarters where I was.  He told me that

24     he had took care of those wounded people and that he had transported

25     them, but he also told me that there had been killed people as a result

Page 13786

 1     of this crime, but he didn't tell me how many.  At that point we left our

 2     personnel to secure the crime scene since we notified the OUP Podujevo

 3     about the crime, and they were expected to arrange for an on-site

 4     investigation, that is to say, to summon an investigation judge and carry

 5     out all the procedures that were prescribed in such situations.

 6        Q.   In your unit, did you have scene-of-crime technicians or any

 7     other qualified personnel who were capable of carrying out an on-site

 8     investigation?

 9        A.   The special anti-terrorist unit had never been involved in crime

10     scene investigations or other investigations of that kind.  That was an

11     elite unit that was intended for completely different tasks.  We never

12     had a person qualified to carry out this kind of investigation because

13     that was the duty of investigating organs, and it was up to them to

14     arrange this investigation.

15        Q.   After this incident, did you do anything to establish whether any

16     members of your unit had been involved in it?

17        A.   Well, I -- after we sent this notification to the OUP and the

18     officer in charge there so that they could carry out the on-site

19     investigation, I lined up my men and also the men from Belgrade after

20     Tetinac had left, and I asked both groups whether any of them committed

21     this crime or if they had seen the perpetrators.  They answered that they

22     hadn't committed any crimes and they hadn't seen who had done it.

23             After that I instructed the platoon commanders to check the

24     status of weapons of my members and the members of the Belgrade

25     special unit.  They did so, and they told me that they all had their

Page 13787

 1     combat sets that had issued to me.  We call it BK, that's a combat kit

 2     which contains certain number of ammunition, and each bullet was

 3     registered with the police officer who had issued it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  On the 28th of March, did your unit remain in

 5     Podujevo, or was it given a new assignment?

 6        A.   No, it did not remain in Podujevo.  They were given a new

 7     assignment on the 28th, and I and both units went to Kosovo Polje, and

 8     one part went to Kosovska Gracanica which was close to my base.

 9        Q.   Mr. Stalevic, it is obvious that on the 28th of March, the

10     research forces of the MUP were not attached to your unit.  During combat

11     operations in Kosovo until the 29th of June, 1999, was reserve force ever

12     attached to your unit, the reserve forces of the MUP?

13        A.   Sometime in the second half or towards the end of April the

14     reserve force of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia was attached to the

15     special anti-terrorist unit of the MUP of Republic of Serbia, and they

16     remained there until the 9th or 10th of May, if I'm not mistaken.  So in

17     total some 10 days starting from the date when they join us towards the

18     end of April.

19        Q.   Can you describe to us the circumstances under which this

20     happened?

21        A.   We had daily actions in that particular period, and we went from

22     one action to another.  One day Zivko Trajkovic went to the staff

23     premises and asked for the reserve forces to be re-introduced.  That was

24     granted by the staff, and after that they were engaged through the police

25     administration, or rather, approval was given for the reserve MUP forces

Page 13788

 1     to be attached to us in Kosovo Polje.

 2           As I saw that happen towards the end of that month and they

 3     came to Kosovo Polje, they were brought then by Commander Trajkovic,

 4     and after that, after we had billeted them in Kosovo Polje the

 5     commander issued tasks, issued to me and the then-commander of the

 6     Belgrade SAJ Simovic, or rather, attached these men that had been sent

 7     from the MUP, from their reserve force.

 8        Q.   These members of the reserve force that were attached to your

 9     unit at the end of April, did they have any connection with the people

10     who were in Podujevo on the 28th of March?

11        A.   Yes, but --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  No, I didn't know

13     whether they had any connections with the men who were in Podujevo on the

14     28th of March.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is that Commander

16     Trajkovic said then that these reserve forces would be screened and that

17     he would personally guarantee for the execution of the tasks when they

18     become attached to our unit in Kosovo Polje.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please describe, once these reserve forces

21     came to Kosovo Polje, how they were attached to your unit and placed

22     under your command and control.

23        A.   These members of the MUP reserve forces were first billeted in

24     Kosovo Polje and the commander [microphone not activated] these men to

25     Mr. Simovic and me.  I held a meeting with them, I asked them about their

Page 13789

 1     military specialties, and according to that, I fitted them into my unit.

 2     On that occasion they were mostly used to secure our facilities and the

 3     flanks of our units, that is to say, the lines reached after we had

 4     carried these actions in 1999.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, in what way did these reserve forces carry

 6     out the tasks that you gave them?

 7        A.   When they arrived at the end of April, they carried out these

 8     tasks together with us in a professional and responsible way during the

 9     ten days of their engagement.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In 1999 were you aware of the fact that members of

11     the reserve forces that were attached to your unit, or did you know that

12     they had committed any crimes in the wars that were waged in the former

13     Yugoslavia?

14        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

15        Q.   In 1999, did you know that members of the MUP reserve forces

16     attached to your unit carried out any crimes in the former Yugoslavia

17     before that?

18        A.   No, I didn't know anything about that in 1999 to the effect that

19     members of the MUP had carried out or committed any crimes in the

20     territory of the former Yugoslavia.

21        Q.   Mr. Stalevic, are you acquainted with General Vlastimir

22     Djordjevic?

23        A.   I know that General Djordjevic was the head of the department, or

24     rather, the assistant minister of MUP of Republika Serbia.  I used to see

25     him but I was not acquainted with him.

Page 13790

 1        Q.   How many times have you seen, if you have seen, Mr. Djordjevic

 2     during 1998?

 3        A.   I saw him a few times in 1998.  A few times.

 4        Q.   Can you perhaps remember when?  I know it was a long time ago,

 5     I'm not looking for an exact date.

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, I think I saw him when in 1998 we

 7     carried out actions and we entered Malisevo.  I also believe that I saw

 8     him during the liberation of the road that had been blocked, the road

 9     between Pristina and Komorane, or rather, Pec.  And I also think that I

10     saw him once in 1998 at Cicavica when we carried an action of crashing

11     the Siptar terrorist groups.  At the foot of that mountain there was a

12     group of refugees of Albanian Siptar civilians.  I reached the place

13     where those refugees were.  Those were the people who were trying to

14     escape combat operations that were carried out both by the Siptar

15     terrorists and our army.  Dr. Dragan Markovic was constantly with me,

16     came and asked me for a vehicle to be used to transport a heavily

17     pregnant woman to Pristina.  I gave this vehicle to the doctor, and he

18     took this woman to Pristina hospital.

19             The women and children who were there were given food and

20     water by us as of much as we could afford to do.

21        Q.   While we are on the subject, tell us about how the special

22     anti-terrorist unit treated civilians whom they encountered in the

23     territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

24        A.   We were completely professional and official apart from

25     situations like the one I just described.  We had no contact with

Page 13791

 1     civilians in places where there were Siptar terrorists, where they

 2     offered resistance, we carried out operations against them.  And I'm now

 3     talking about the special anti-terrorist unit.

 4        Q.   I'd like to go back now to the role of General Djordjevic in 1998

 5     when you saw him on the locations where you saw him.  Do you know what

 6     his role was?

 7        A.   In the course of 1998, or rather, the second half of 1998 when we

 8     were in combat against Siptar terrorists, he would come to see the troops

 9     if we needed any assistance, rest, or food.  He did not have a command

10     role whatsoever.

11        Q.   Did Mr. Djordjevic at any time give you any order in that period?

12        A.   Mr. Djordjevic never gave me any orders.  I was given orders by

13     my own commander, Zivko Trajkovic.

14        Q.   And were you present, did you hear, or did you see him give any

15     kind of order whatsoever to Zivko Trajkovic related to the operations you

16     were carrying out in KiM?

17        A.   No, no, I was never aware of something like that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever see Vlastimir Djordjevic in 1999,

19     specifically from the beginning of combat operations until the end of

20     June 1999?  And if so, when?

21        A.   I saw him once in 1999, at least I think it was in 1999.  And

22     that was on the 15th, or rather, 16th January.  There was a session of

23     the government being held in Pristina and the chief of sector attended so

24     that members of my unit provided security to the members of the

25     leadership who attended, and on the 15th, or rather, the 16th, he called

Page 13792

 1     me in the afternoon saying that he needed to go to Mount Kopaonik for

 2     skiing, on a skiing trip.  I offered my help.  I said I could organise it

 3     but that I wanted to go too because I had worked as a ski instructor in

 4     special units.

 5               So I provided an escort vehicle from my unit to go to

 6     Zvecani which is just after Mitrovica, and that afternoon, the chief of

 7     sector and I set out with this escort.  At Zvecani the escort left us and

 8     turned back, and we went on to Mount Kopaonik.  We skied there the next

 9     day, and around noon he got a call on his cell phone and told me Sava,

10     look, something cropped up, the situation in Kosovo and Metohija got

11     complicated.  They will send a helicopter to fetch me.  You go on skiing,

12     and if need be, they will call you too.

13             So that was on the 17th when he left.  I stayed on for some

14     more skiing, and soon afterwards, I went back.  I was met by a vehicle

15     at Zvecani, and I went back to my base at Ajvalija.  That was the night

16     of the 17th.

17        Q.   Thank you.  After that day, the 17th of January until combat

18     operations were finished on the 10th of June, did you see him again in

19     Kosovo or anywhere in the territory of Serbia?

20        A.   No, that was the one time when I saw him, and the day when we

21     were skiing together.

22        Q.   Mr. Stalevic, at any time in 1998 or 1999 did you hear or see

23     that there was any plan within the Ministry of the Interior to expel the

24     ethnic Albanian population from the territory of Kosovo?

25        A.   I've never seen any kind of plan to expel the Albanian

Page 13793

 1     population, either in 1998 or 1999.

 2        Q.   In 1998 or 1999, did you ever hear or see that there was any plan

 3     or understanding within the Ministry of the Interior in order to expel

 4     the Albanian population and thus change the ethnic composition of Kosovo?

 5        A.   No, I've never seen anything like that.  I never heard about it

 6     or seen anything of the kind.

 7             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stalevic.  Your

 8     Honours, I've finished my examination-in-chief.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Popovic.

10             Mr. Behar.

11             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Behar:

13        Q.   Good morning, sir.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   My name is Eliott Behar.  I'm counsel for the Prosecution, and

16     I'll have some questions for you this morning.  Sir, I want to start by

17     asking you some very basic questions about the incident that took place

18     in Podujevo.  Now, I take it that you are well aware as of today of how

19     serious this massacre was.  There were 19 people who were killed, at

20     least a dozen women and young children were machine-gunned in a group

21     against a wall, and there were five survivors, each of whom was a child

22     and several of whom were grievously injured.

23             Is that something, sir, that you are now aware of?

24        A.   This is a rather long question.  I knew at the time because the

25     doctor went there and came back and told me, I knew that there were

Page 13794

 1     people injured and that they had been given assistance and they were

 2     later transported to the hospital in Pristina.  The doctor also told me

 3     that some people were dead.  He didn't tell me how many dead.  I learned

 4     later about what you mentioned in this very long question.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, I take it that this event would have been particularly

 6     memorable for you, and that you would certainly remember where you were

 7     and who you were with when this incident took place; is that fair to say?

 8        A.   Well, that incident when it happened, I was at the headquarters

 9     not far from the OUP Podujevo.  I was on the premises of the headquarters

10     with Boca, Slobodan Medic, when the incident occurred.  I was not right

11     there on the spot.

12        Q.   Let me go through this because I want to make sure I have this

13     exactly right.  You are saying you were at the headquarters.  Were you at

14     the location of the OUP Podujevo itself?

15        A.   I was at the headquarters of OU Podujevo which had been relocated

16     from its peacetime location.  It was relocated to another location very

17     close by to the normal location 50, 70 metres away.  That's where I was.

18        Q.   And at that time, the time that the shooting occurred, it seems

19     to me we have a couple already different versions of who you were with.

20     Who exactly were you with, sir, in the OUP Podujevo building at the time

21     the shooting took place?

22        A.   The correct version is this, when we heard those two volleys of

23     fire, at the headquarters at the OUP Podujevo, there was I, Dr. Markovic,

24     Zoran Simovic, and this man Boca.  I can't remember exactly if anyone

25     was -- anyone else was there, but the four of us were certainly there

Page 13795

 1     when we heard those volleys of fire.

 2        Q.   And so when just earlier you said I was on the premises of the

 3     headquarters with Boca, Slobodan Medic, you didn't mention anyone else,

 4     did you just forget at that time to mention Mr. Simovic and Dragan

 5     Markovic?

 6        A.   I am unable to follow the transcript or the interpretation, but

 7     on that day I was at the headquarters with this man Boca, whose name is

 8     Slobodan Medic.  Afterwards, Simovic came with this man Boca, that's how

 9     he introduced himself when he came in, just Boca.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let me just explain this.  Before we go on, sir, if

11     there's anything that you don't understand in the translation that you

12     are receiving or in something that's said, please let me know, we'll

13     rephrase it.  I want to make sure that we are on the same page.

14             Now, again, and right now you have just mentioned Simovic came in

15     with this man Boca.  Just to be absolutely clear, your position is that

16     you were at the OUP headquarters at the time the firing took place with

17     Mr. Simovic; with Boca, Slobodan Medic; and with Dragan Markovic; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Dragan and I were at the headquarters.  We were there.  After

20     awhile, Simovic arrived together with Slobodan Medic, and from the moment

21     of their arrival, 30 minutes afterwards, we heard this shooting.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I think that's clear.

23             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see Exhibit 06117, please.  I'll just

24     indicate, Your Honours, there are -- these are documents within the 65

25     ter numbers that contain several statements, so when I call them up I'll

Page 13796

 1     be asking for the specific statement, and I think I'll propose to tender

 2     them at the end once I've dealt with several of the statements already.

 3     I hope it doesn't get too complicated.  But I'm looking for -- the

 4     English translation would be K054-6763, and in B/C/S, I'll need page 11.

 5        Q.   Sir, do you recall giving an interview on the 3rd of April, 2002

 6     to the district court in Prokuplje?  This is a record of that interview

 7     on the screen.

 8        A.   I recall that.  I remember I was at Prokuplje and that I gave

 9     this statement.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see the next page in the English and the

12     B/C/S, please.

13        Q.   Now, here, sir, you say starting from the second line, if we

14     could just zoom in a little bit.

15             "On the 28th of March, 1999, I was quartered in a house in

16     Podujevo near the Podujevo OUP, and Dr. Markovic was with me.  While we

17     were sitting there, the doctor was called via radio communications to go

18     urgently to the place from where they were calling.  He left immediately

19     and I remained in the house."

20             Do you recall saying that, sir?

21        A.   I remember, Mr. Prosecutor, this interview, and I remember also

22     making the statement that Dragan Markovic and Zoran Simovic were with me

23     in the OUP headquarters and also Boca, but in this statement here it says

24     I was with Dr. Markovic.  When I was giving this statement, I spoke to

25     the investigating judge for about 20, 30 minutes about the incident

Page 13797

 1     itself, and after that, the judge started dictating a statement for the

 2     record and said that it would be quite sufficient otherwise the statement

 3     would have been too long, and he extracted only the main elements

 4     considering that I was not a direct participant of the incident.

 5        Q.   But you will agree with me, sir, that in that statement there is

 6     no mention of Mr. Simovic, there's no mention of Boca, and, in fact, you

 7     are not even at the OUP, you are in a house.  Do you agree with me, sir,

 8     that this statement is different from the account that you just gave us?

 9        A.   You see, Mr. Prosecutor, I was giving a statement about who was

10     at that headquarters.  The headquarters was moved to a new location not

11     far away.  Apart from me and Dragan, there was Simovic and Boca and then

12     when I was in Prokuplje, I was also saying this same thing, but the

13     Prosecutor there said that there was no need for all that to be reflected

14     in the statement, it would make the statement too long, and I agreed and

15     I signed the statement I gave then, and it's correct and truthful, the

16     statement I gave then.

17        Q.   Sir, I'm not too concerned with the length of this statement,

18     what I'm concerned with is that it provides a materially different state

19     of fact.  And that is, in fact, your statement -- pardon me, your

20     signature at the bottom of this statement, is it not?

21        A.   Yes, it is my signature, but I only gave a statement insofar as

22     the Prosecutor was asking questions and I said what I knew.  And the

23     investigating judge said it was quite enough.  I agreed with him and I

24     signed that statement, and it's true.

25        Q.   I think we have that position, sir.  Let's move on and look at

Page 13798

 1     something else.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  If we can look at 06118, please.  And here in the

 3     English I'll need K054-6915.  B/C/S if we could have page 36.  I'm not

 4     sure that that is the right statement in English.  Let me just have a

 5     moment's indulgence.  It's page 14 in English, please.

 6        Q.   So if we can look here, sir, at the final paragraph in English

 7     starting from the second line, I'll read from, you say:

 8             "On the critical day, the 28th of March, 1999, I was in Podujevo.

 9     As I was a member of another unit, I was objectively in no position or at

10     the scene, nor did I see what happened, but the moment I was informed

11     that some people had been hurt, I gave my doctor my vehicle, and my

12     driver and I ordered taking all measures to help the wounded."

13             Do you recall saying that, sir?

14        A.   It says, yes, commander of the special unit in Pristina on the

15     day, 28th March, 1999, I was in Podujevo.  I was a member of another

16     unit.  Yes, I was a member of another unit.  I'm from the special

17     anti-terrorist unit, I'm not from the reserve force of the MUP.  And I

18     was, therefore, from another unit.  The regular unit of the Ministry of

19     the Interior.

20        Q.   That's fine, sir.  That's not the part I'm concerned with.

21        A.   And I was --

22        Q.   What I'm concerned with is your statement that you were informed

23     that some people had been hurt and that at that point you gave your

24     doctor -- you gave the doctor your vehicle, and that you ordered taking

25     all measures to help the wounded.  I'm asking you if you recall saying

Page 13799

 1     that.

 2        A.   I'm just saying it says here that I'm from another unit, and I

 3     was indeed from another unit because those men were the reserve force of

 4     the MUP.  And as for this other part that I provided a doctor to go to

 5     the scene, I did provide a doctor to go and give assistance to the people

 6     at the scene.  I was asked to provide a vehicle and assistance to be

 7     given to the injured people.  But I'm stating with full responsibility

 8     that I had not seen this statement or signed it as such.  I know what I

 9     said, but I don't know what was written.  I didn't have time to read what

10     was written there.  I'm saying the same thing then as now, that we were

11     not from the same unit because they were a reserve unit, and that I sent

12     a doctor to give assistance to the injured and that a vehicle was asked

13     from me to transport them to the Pristina hospital, that's true, I did

14     provide that.

15        Q.   I think we have your position, sir.  I can tell you this is a

16     record of your court appearance.  So it's not a statement.  This one is

17     not a statement, this is what you said in court.  But I can see, sir, it

18     says right on the top of that same page that you took an oath.  Do you

19     recall taking an oath just as you took one here to tell the truth in

20     court?

21        A.   I was telling the truth then, and I'm telling the truth now, but

22     I don't know at this trial what they were writing.  I didn't have time or

23     opportunity to read it, and I'm stating with full responsibility again

24     that we were not from the same unit.  I am from the special

25     anti-terrorist unit of the MUP, and they were from the reserve force of

Page 13800

 1     the MUP.

 2        Q.   I know that, sir.  That's not contentious.  It's not at issue

 3     here.  My point was that once again then, and I am certain that you took

 4     an oath to tell the whole truth, at no point did you mention Mr. Simovic,

 5     at no point did you mention Boca.  Once again on that account you were

 6     just with the doctor.

 7             Sir, let me move on.

 8        A.   In this statement that I'm looking at, I didn't mention it, but

 9     as I said, this refers to this MUP reserve forces when I say that we were

10     not member of the same unit.  I never looked at this statement, I didn't

11     read it, and I didn't sign it.  I did give a statement though, and I know

12     I did that when I attended this trial.

13        Q.   Sir, what I find interesting is that when you gave this version

14     of where you were, there were other witnesses who corroborated your

15     account at the same time.  And I'd like to take you through that and give

16     you a chance to comment.

17             Now, sir, you, Dragan Markovic, and Zoran Simovic all gave

18     statements on the same day, the 3rd of April, 2002.  Do you recall

19     that?  I'll just ask you, do you recall giving a statement on the same

20     day as Dragan Markovic and Zoran Simovic?

21        A.   I know that I was on that day at the Prokuplje court, that I gave

22     a statement about this incident.  They were there probably, but I cannot

23     remember with any degree of certainty that they were there on the same

24     day.  I know that I was there in Prokuplje on that date.

25             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see 06117, please.  And in the English

Page 13801

 1     it's K054-6753.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, I want to take a look at the statement that was given

 3     by the doctor you've mentioned, Dragan Markovic, who you said that you

 4     were with.  If we look at page 2 in the B/C/S and the English.  If we

 5     look at the second paragraph, and it is the, I believe it's the third

 6     line.  I'll start reading at the third line.  Dr. Markovic said:

 7             "Our group included Stalevic, the commander of the Pristina

 8     special unit.  After awhile, you could hear one - at least, I think that

 9     is what happened - long burst of fire."

10             Now, Dr. Markovic, so he has already said he is with you --

11     sorry, are you having trouble seeing that?

12        A.   No, I can't find that particular portion.

13        Q.   It should be in the second paragraph there, sir.  You see a line

14     that says, "our group included Stalevic..." if you can find your name on

15     the page?

16        A.   Yes, yes, I have found it.

17        Q.   He says:

18             "Our group included Stalevic, the commander of the Pristina

19     special unit.  After awhile you could hear one - at least, I think that

20     is what happened - long burst of fire."

21             Now, if you continue on to the last sentence in the paragraph,

22     Dr. Markovic says:

23             "The burst of fire that could be heard was nearby, and after five

24     minutes, I was called over radio communication by the SAJ Belgrade

25     Commander Simovic to urgently come to the building near the municipal

Page 13802

 1     centre because there was some need for my intervention."

 2             Do you see that part, sir?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

 4        Q.   So it's clear from this version of events, sir, that you and Dr.

 5     Markovic are together as you said in your initial statement, and that you

 6     are in a different place from Mr. Simovic because Dr. Markovic has said

 7     that Mr. Simovic called him on the radio.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I can see this statement.  At the time I was not far away of

 9     the headquarters of the original -- there was Dragan Markovic as well and

10     Simovic and Boca joined us later.  So approximately 30 or 45 minutes

11     later we heard short bursts of fire.  I don't know who went out first,

12     but then I heard on the radio communication --

13        Q.   That's fine, sir.  We have that, sir, and that's fine.  I'm

14     talking about the moment of the shooting, and that's mentioned in this

15     statement.  But I want to take you through something else.

16             MR. BEHAR:  If we can look at Mr. Simovic's statement.  This is

17     again 06117.  The English is K054-6753.  Actually, that may be the same

18     one.  Sorry, 6756, please.  It's page 4 in B/C/S.

19        Q.   So, sir, we can see this is indeed the same date, April 3rd,

20     2002.  This is Mr. Simovic's statement.  And if you look at the next page

21     in English and B/C/S.  If you look at the fourth paragraph in B/C/S, sir,

22     and in English we can look at the final paragraph.  There's a single line

23     there that says -- sorry, it's just before -- in English it's the line

24     just before the final paragraph.  Mr. Simovic says:

25             "I went to the command post, i.e., the 'staff,' with Boca and

Page 13803

 1     some of his men."

 2             So there Mr. Simovic didn't say anything about you.  On this

 3     version you are not with Mr. Simovic at the staff.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Can you please point this precise portion to me.  I can't find

 5     it.

 6        Q.   I believe it's the fourth paragraph in B/C/S from the top.  It's

 7     directly, if you see --

 8        A.   Here where it says, "I went to the town command i.e., the

 9     headquarters with Boca and some other men," is that what you are

10     referring to?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   When Boca came and also Zoran Simovic, I was at the headquarters

13     which was not far away from the OUP, and I was there the whole time.  So

14     my statement that I made about my being at the OUP headquarters, I can

15     categorically confirm that I was there at the time when Simovic and Boca

16     came.  I don't remember about these other men.  I know that Simovic and

17     Boca came, and I know that for certain.  And I also know that Markovic

18     was there.  I'm not sure whether anyone else was there, but I'm sure

19     about the four of us.

20        Q.   Sir, we've seen three versions now, yours, Mr. Simovic's version,

21     Dragan Markovic's version, all of this having the same state of affairs

22     of you being with the doctor and not with Mr. Simovic.

23     Let me be very direct about what I'm suggesting, sir, because I want to

24     give you a chance to respond.

25             I'm going to suggest that you and Mr. Simovic and Dr. Markovic

Page 13804

 1     and perhaps others participated in a coverup in 2002 when you provided

 2     this testimony.  Is that true?

 3        A.   I was not carrying out any cover-up.  I claim with full

 4     responsibility, and I did that then and I'm doing it now, that I was at

 5     the headquarters, that Simovic was there as well.  And I didn't attempt

 6     to do any cover-up.  When Markovic called me and told me that there were

 7     injured people, I gave him a vehicle to transport them to Pristina.  So

 8     there was no cover-up.

 9        Q.   That's fine.  And let me just be clear, sir.  I have your

10     position now on where you were, what I'm trying to focus on is what you

11     said in 2002.  Let me get your comment on another exhibit.

12             MR. BEHAR:  P493.  If we can see page 13 in the English and page

13     14 in B/C/S.

14        Q.   Sir, these statements and this testimony surrounds what took

15     place at the Prokuplje court.  Do you recall that Goran Stoparic also

16     testified at the Cvjetan trial at the Prokuplje district Court, the same

17     trial that you are giving statements for?

18        A.   I was in Prokuplje at the time, but I don't remember this person

19     giving a statement.  I don't know which name you mentioned, Goran

20     something.  All I know is that I gave a statement on that day and I

21     returned immediately.

22        Q.   I'd like to focus on what he said here, if we look at paragraph

23     83, if we can just scroll down in the English slightly.  Now, in the

24     second line, sorry, it's the -- starting from the third line into

25     paragraph 83, Mr. Stoparic explains this:

Page 13805

 1             "The first time, or the first trial, was in Prokuplje district

 2     court.  I was approached by the lead Defence lawyer for Sasa, Zarko

 3     Kalanj, who wanted me to help Sasa.  I was provided with a statement

 4     already written out.  This statement was not true."

 5             My question for you is this, sir:  Were you approached by that

 6     lawyer or by anyone else and asked to conspire to cover up the truth

 7     with respect to that massacre and with respect to your evidence?

 8        A.   The only thing I did was give statement.  Nobody approached me.

 9     I gave it of my own volition, and nobody approached me on that day.  I

10     answered the questions asked by the judge, and I described the incident.

11     Therefore, no one approached me in the sense that you are implying.

12             MR. BEHAR:  If we can just quickly look at the next page in

13     English, it's the same page in B/C/S.

14        Q.   If we can look at paragraph 84, here, sir, you just mentioned

15     your testimony, Mr. Stoparic said:

16             "When I was called to give evidence I said that I could not

17     remember.  This is how I answered all the questions.  I was afraid to

18     tell the truth to the court."  Then he says:  "Everyone that gave

19     evidence lied in order to help Sasa."

20             Is that true, sir, did you lie in order to help Sasa, and were

21     you aware of anyone else at the time lying in order to protect Sasa?

22        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know what this Stoparic person said.  As

23     far as I'm concerned, I can categorically say that I never told a lie.  I

24     told only what I knew about what happened on the 28th in response to the

25     questions that I had been asked.  I didn't lie either then or now.

Page 13806

 1     I'm telling you the truth about this incident, this massacre that took

 2     place on the 28th.

 3             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, I see we are nearing the break and I

 4     suspect that the next set of things I need to show the witness may take a

 5     little longer than five minutes.  If it's convenient I can break now or

 6     I'm happy to press through as best I can.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  If it's going to be more practical, we will break

 8     now.  It's only five minutes.  We will adjourn and resume at five minutes

 9     to 11.00.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.28

12                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

15             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, when we left off last time we looked at a set of statements

17     from the 3rd of April, 2002, which had a state of affairs in which you

18     were with the doctor at the time that the massacre took place.  I'd like

19     to take you through what I say is another version with respect to where

20     you were at the time of the massacre.

21             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see Exhibit 06108, please.

22        Q.   Sir, this is a statement that you gave to the MUP Working Group

23     on the 15th of February, 2002.

24             MR. BEHAR:  And if we can look at the second page in English.

25     Just scroll down a bit in B/C/S.  If we can have the next page in

Page 13807

 1     English.

 2        Q.   So if we look here, sir, at the third paragraph down I'll start.

 3     Here you say:

 4             "I attended a meeting in the Podujevo OUP where the units

 5     accommodation and manner of engagement were discussed."  Then you say:

 6     "In addition to me, the following were present at the meeting:

 7     Commanders of units, engaged in the Podujevo area, a representative of

 8     the MUP staff; Zoran Simovic, commander of the Belgrade SAJ; and Boca.

 9     While the meeting was in progress I heard to bursts of automatic fire.

10     After that, Zoran Simovic went out to see what was going on."

11             Do you recall saying that, sir?  And just to be clear, I'm not

12     asking you what happened, I'm just asking you if you remember saying

13     that in 2002?

14        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, on that day when this happened, I was present at

15     the meeting at the headquarters relocated in Podujevo not far away.  Also

16     present at this meeting were Commander Simovic, Boca, and the doctor.  I

17     don't remember anyone else being in attendance, as I said before.

18        Q.   Let me point stop you.  I'm trying to be as clear as I can.

19     I'm not asking you about what happened.  I think you've been very clear

20     in repeating what you say happened that day.  I'm just asking you with

21     respect to this statement that's on the screen, I'm asking you if you

22     remembered giving that statement on the 15th of February, 2002?  Do you

23     remember that?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  I gave that statement.  I didn't remember when this

25     was exactly, but I can see it here, and you can see that this statement

Page 13808

 1     was taken by a Working Group of the Ministry of the Interior.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  And if we can just look at the next page in English

 3     and B/C/S.

 4        Q.   Is that your signature, sir, at the bottom of the page there,

 5     really in the middle of the page?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Would you agree with me, sir, that the doctor is not mentioned as

 8     being with you in this statement; is that correct?

 9        A.   I can claim with full responsibility now and I did so then when I

10     made the statement, that Dr. Markovic was with us at this meeting.  As

11     far as I can see here, this Working Group that took those statements for

12     the record from us didn't sign it.

13        Q.   But you signed it, sir.  You signed it to confirm that it was

14     accurate; correct?

15        A.   The statement is accurate about what I'm talking about, and that

16     is to say that present at the meeting was the doctor, that he was there,

17     that SAJ Commander Simovic came, and that Boca also joined the meeting.

18        Q.   Sir, was that statement that you gave on the 15th of February,

19     2002, was that your evidence, or did someone else write that out for you

20     or tell you to say that?

21        A.   No.  You mean this statement that we are looking at right now?

22        Q.   Yes, just talking about this specific statement.  I'm asking you,

23     did you go there and give your own evidence independently, or did someone

24     else write that out or tell you to say that on your behalf?

25        A.   No, they just came to take a statement, this Working Group.

Page 13809

 1     Nobody had written anything or told me anything.  I said what I'm

 2     repeating now, and what is written here was actually compiled by them.

 3     As I said, the doctor, myself, Simovic, and Boca were at the meeting on

 4     the 28th.

 5        Q.   And just so we are entirely clear, sir, did you collaborate with

 6     anyone else, and what I mean by that is, did you speak to any other

 7     witnesses about what your evidence should be before you gave that

 8     statement?

 9        A.   I never discussed anything with any other witnesses as you are

10     indicated.  No, never.

11        Q.   What I find interesting, sir, and I'll give you a chance to look

12     at it, is that in some respects, this statement is, in my submission,

13     almost identical to what Mr. Simovic said.

14             MR. BEHAR:  If we can see P1590, please.  In fact, before I move

15     on, Your Honours, I would seek to tender that statement.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  This is the statement of the present witness now

17     on the screen?

18             MR. BEHAR:  That's correct.  And it's the only statement under

19     that 65 ter number.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P01597.

22             MR. BEHAR:  So if we could see now P1590, please.

23        Q.   Sir, you can see that this is the statement of Mr. Simovic, you

24     can see from the date there it was given on the same day, the 15th of

25     February, 2002.

Page 13810

 1             MR. BEHAR:  And if we can stay on the same page in B/C/S but look

 2     at page 2 in English.  Perhaps just zoom in to the middle of the page.

 3        Q.   In the third paragraph down, sir, Mr. Simovic said:

 4             "The following were present at the meeting in the Podujevo OUP:

 5     Commanders of units engaged in the Podujevo area; a representative of the

 6     MUP staff; Radislav Stalevic, commander of the SAJ Pristina; and Boca.

 7     While the meeting was in progress, I heard two bursts of automatic fire

 8     and rushed outside to see what was going on."

 9             Are you able to explain that similarity, sir, not just

10     in the content but in the wording of the statement to what you had

11     said?

12        A.   I should not like to explain this.  Simovic gave in statement and

13     signed it as his own.  I didn't discuss with anyone how to give my

14     statement, and again, I can only state with full responsibility that I

15     was at that meeting with Markovic, Simovic, and this Boca.  I don't

16     remember clearly whether anyone else was present on that day on the 28th.

17        Q.   This interview, sir, on the 15th of February, 2002, do you recall

18     where it took place?

19        A.   That interview when I was giving this statement I think, if I'm

20     not mistaken, because I'm not completely sure, I think it was at the

21     command of the gendarmerie somewhere in Belgrade.  That's where the

22     gendarmerie of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia is based.

23        Q.   That's correct, sir, we can see that if you scroll up to the top

24     of the document, it indicates that.  In fact, at that time, sir, both you

25     and Mr. Simovic were employed working for the gendarmerie, were you not?

Page 13811

 1        A.   I said that yesterday, in 2001 I started working with the

 2     gendarmerie as assistant commander of the gendarmerie of the MUP of the

 3     Republic of Serbia, and in 2002 at some point I transferred to a unit

 4     that had been newly formed, the Novi Sad gendarmerie detachment.  And

 5     it's true that I gave a statement at the command of the gendarmerie

 6     because my detachment was at that time in Novi Sad.  It was set up

 7     sometime in 2002.  I can't remember the date.

 8        Q.   That's fine, sir.  That's going beyond my question.

 9             While we are looking at Mr. Simovic's statement, sir, I'd like

10     to look at what you both said about the redeployment of the Skorpions

11     unit.

12             MR. BEHAR:  If we look at page 2 in B/C/S, the next page in

13     B/C/S, and page 3 in English.  It's also the following page in English.

14     In English if we look at the final paragraph on the page.  In B/C/S it's

15     the third paragraph from the bottom, I believe.  Perhaps in the B/C/S if

16     we can just scroll left a bit.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Here Mr. Simovic said:

18             "After the killing of civilians in Podujevo, I know that the unit

19     whose members were the perpetrators of this act was suspended from any

20     further engagement and after a period of time, outside of my activities,

21     it was engaged again in the MUP reserve force."

22             Do you see that, sir, that passage?

23        A.   I can see that.

24        Q.   Great.  I'm just asking you at this point to remember that.

25     Remember that passage.

Page 13812

 1             MR. BEHAR:  Now, if we can see your statement again, if we look

 2     at 06108 once again.  In fact, I think I just tendered that.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Exhibit P1597.

 4             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we can look at page 3 of

 5     the English, page 2 of the B/C/S.  It's the last paragraph.

 6        Q.   Here once again, sir, it says:

 7             "After the killing of civilians in Podujevo, I know that the unit

 8     whose members were the perpetrators of this act was suspended from any

 9     further engagement and after a period of time, outside any of my

10     activities, it was engaged again in the MUP reserve force."

11             Do you agree, sir, that those paragraphs are identical?

12        A.   This is my statement, the statement I gave.  I am aware of the

13     fact that they were turned back after this incident.  They were excluded

14     from any engagement, and after awhile they were again re-engaged as the

15     reserve force of the MUP.  So what I stated here is correct.

16        Q.   Sir, again just focusing on this statement that you gave.  Is it

17     a coincidence, sir, that several items appear word for word the same in

18     your two statements, or did Mr. Simovic and yourself sit down together,

19     perhaps the two of you or perhaps with a third party, and come up with an

20     account of what to say?

21        A.   Prosecutor, I never agreed or discussed with anyone what to say.

22     This statement was taken by the Working Group of the ministry operating

23     at that time, and it is exactly as is written here, the members of this

24     reserve unit were suspended.  That's what I stated on that day.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you some question just moving to a somewhat

Page 13813

 1     different topic with respect to the materials that you reviewed before

 2     you testified here today.  Did you have a chance, sir, before you

 3     testified here, to review Mr. Djordjevic's testimony?

 4        A.   No, no.  I did not.

 5        Q.   And did you speak with anyone, sir, anyone who had any interest

 6     in this case prior to testifying here today, in fact, prior to you

 7     beginning your testimony yesterday about your evidence or about this

 8     case?

 9        A.   No, I did not speak with anyone about my evidence.

10        Q.   There were a couple of things, sir, that struck me as somewhat

11     unusual about the evidence that you've recently given.  I'd like to give

12     you a chance to respond.  Just earlier today, sir - I can give my friend

13     the reference, it was at page 13, line 20 of today's transcript - you

14     were asked if you had seen Mr. Djordjevic in 1999, and you responded --

15     in your answer you said:

16             "Well, at least I think it was in 1999."  And then you went on to

17     provide the exact date that you saw him on, which I would note was the

18     same date that Mr. Djordjevic gave us.  Did you have any assistance, sir,

19     in remembering that date, January 16th, that you gave us?

20        A.   Well, you see, I know that it was only once that -- once in 1999

21     that General Vlastimir Djordjevic was in Kosovo and that I provided

22     police officers from my unit to guard these republican authorities, and I

23     recall that it was on the 16th that I got a call from him that he was

24     going to Kopaonik mountain.  He had arrived by plane, and some sort of

25     transportation needed to be organised.  And as I said, I also wanted to

Page 13814

 1     go skiing, and I said I would organise the transport.

 2        Q.   That is fine.  I'll go through that testimony with you as well,

 3     but what I'm curious about, sir, is that specific date, and just to put

 4     the question to you again, you seem to have gone from not even being sure

 5     what year this was to being able to pin-point the exact date that you

 6     were with Mr. Djordjevic, and I'm asking, you did you have any assistance

 7     in remembering that it was that date?  What helped you to recall that it

 8     was exactly January 16th ten years ago?

 9        A.   Since he was there only once, and I am a commander of the special

10     unit and I remember it was a weekend, I know he was going skiing, and I

11     know for sure, and I claim with full responsibility that it was on the

12     16th of January.  I know for a fact that he asked me to transfer him on

13     the 16th of January.  It was a weekend, we went skiing, and I know I went

14     back to my base on the 17th January, 1999.

15        Q.   Is there any document, sir, that you saw that contained the date

16     the 16th of January, or did somebody speak to you about the date the 16th

17     of January?

18        A.   I've never seen any document regarding either the 15th or the

19     16th of January.  It's just that I know that this session was held then.

20     I remember the session, and I remember it was the 16th when he asked me

21     to get him to Kopaonik.

22        Q.   Sir, I notice that when you were testifying again previously

23     today, when my learned friend was questioning you, when you gave the date

24     of the 16th, you slipped twice and, in fact, you said it was the 15th

25     then you changed it to the 16th.  I see again today just now you said the

Page 13815

 1     15th or the 16th.  Sir, what is the significance of January 15th?

 2        A.   Now and when I was questioned by the other lawyer, I'm saying

 3     that there was a session held at that time on the 15th and the 16th, and

 4     it was on the 16th that the chief of sector assistant minister asked me

 5     to get him to Mount Kopaonik on that skiing trip, and I said I wanted to

 6     join him.  It was on the 16th for sure, and I remember that on that date

 7     I went to Mount Kopaonik.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

 9             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

10     question has already been answered, but my objection had to do with the

11     way the question was asked because what the witness said just now and

12     earlier contained no wavering between the 15th and the 16th, so my

13     objection had to do with the evidence he gave earlier today.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15             MR. BEHAR:  I think I can move on, Your Honours, but I think the

16     transcript speaks for itself.

17        Q.   Sir, this session you are referring to taking place on the 15th

18     and 16th, can you explain what that was?

19        A.   It was a session of the government of the Republic of Serbia held

20     in Pristina and places around Kosovo, and it was finished on the 16th,

21     and after the session was over, the chief asked me to organise transport

22     and get him to Mount Kopaonik.

23        Q.   But the 16th is the date that you saw Mr. Djordjevic, according

24     to you; correct?

25        A.   He called me on the telephone on the 16th, and then I organised

Page 13816

 1     my own car and the escort to go as far as Zvecani, the escort was

 2     concerned, and the two of us went on to Kopaonik and the date was the

 3     16th.

 4        Q.   That's fine.  Sir, are you aware of the significance of the date

 5     of January 15th, 1999?  What of significance took place that day?  And I

 6     should say, what of significance to the events in Kosovo?

 7        A.   I don't know what happened on that day.  All I know is that on

 8     that day after I was called, I transferred the chief of the sector,

 9     General Vlastimir Djordjevic to Kopaonik.

10        Q.   Are you aware of the Racak incident, sir?

11        A.   No, I'm not familiar with the incident in Racak.

12        Q.   You've never heard of it?  Never heard about anything happening

13     in Racak on the 15th of January?

14        A.   On the 16th I certainly didn't know anything about it, but later

15     when I returned from Kopaonik, I watched television and learned from the

16     media that something happened in Racak.  That's after my return from

17     Kopaonik, so on the 16th, I wasn't aware of it.

18        Q.   So when you said about 30 seconds ago, no, I'm not familiar with

19     the incident in Racak, what did you mean by that, sir?

20        A.   You, you asked me, Are you aware of the incident on the 16th.  I

21     did not know of any incident, but I learned when I returned from

22     Kopaonik.  I watched it on television.  There was some conference

23     regarding the event.  It was maybe the 17th, I'm not sure.  But I know I

24     watched it on television.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you about another piece of your testimony.

Page 13817

 1     This is from yesterday, and just so we're clear, I'll take you to it.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  If we could look at yesterday's testimony.  It's

 3     T13776.

 4        Q.   This will be in English in the transcript, sir, but I'll read it

 5     to you, so you'll receive the translation.  I'll start from line 10.

 6     Sir, you were asked in chief:

 7             "When Zivko Trajkovic informed you of the need of this greater

 8     engagement, did he also propose how to deal with the situation especially

 9     in view of the fact of the number of people you had?"

10             And, sir, you went on to discuss what Mr. Trajkovic, things

11     that Mr. Trajkovic did and then told you.  So you said:

12             "At that meeting, he told us that he would see to it that a

13     reserve force be found.  Indeed, later on he told us that he had spoken

14     to Mrgud whom he had known from Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Sermia,

15     which I think is perhaps Western Srem, about that reserve force.

16     Apparently Mrgud told him he knew of the people who could make part of

17     that MUP reserve force.  After that, Trajkovic informed the chief of the

18     sector about the fact that he located a number of reservists who could be

19     made part of the unit.  He also said that Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic, the

20     sector chief, told him that the minister's decision still awaited on the

21     issue of joining the MUP by the reserve force."

22             Do you recall saying that yesterday, sir?

23        A.   This is a very long passage that you've just read.  Like I said

24     yesterday --

25        Q.   All I'm asking you -- I'm not asking you about the content, I'm

Page 13818

 1     just asking you simply now, do you remember saying that yesterday?  I'm

 2     not asking you if it's true, I'm just asking if you remember saying it?

 3        A.   I said yesterday that Zivko Trajkovic had spoken to Mrgud --

 4        Q.   I don't need you to repeat it.  In fact, perhaps I'll just move

 5     on, we have the transcript.  What I want to ask you about that passage,

 6     sir, is that it strikes me that in that passage you are showing a

 7     remarkable memory for a conversation that you had more than ten years

 8     ago.  And if we look specifically at what you are saying in that

 9     paragraph, sir, you are relating details of things that Mrgud told

10     Trajkovic that he had told Djordjevic.  You are also talking about things

11     that Trajkovic told you that Djordjevic said about the minister.  My

12     question for you, sir, is:  Are you saying today that you are able to

13     independently remember all of those things from a conversation that took

14     place ten years ago?

15        A.   You see, it's the usual procedure.  It all happened that way at

16     the time, and I remember it and I should always be able to remember that

17     when admission into the reserve force of the MUP is concerned, when Zivko

18     Trajkovic said that a reserve force could join us, of course, he had had

19     to tell the chief of the sector that there is this possibility and that

20     he had to await the minister's decision on their admission.  Of course,

21     that's the usual procedure.  It has nothing to do with the length of time

22     that passed since.  It was the normal procedure whenever reservists were

23     engaged through the administration.

24        Q.   But, sir, we are not just talking here about a usual procedure.

25     You purported in your testimony to remember specific details about what

Page 13819

 1     was told to you by Mr. Trajkovic about conversations with a number of

 2     people, and these were specific conversations with specific people about

 3     specific events.  What I'm asking you, sir, is, are you saying that you

 4     are able to remember all of that detail?  Do you remember your

 5     conversation with Trajkovic so well that you can say that all of those

 6     things you've told us are accurate?

 7        A.   I remember that conversation the way I stated here, that

 8     Trajkovic conveyed these things.  Now, whether I would be able to repeat

 9     at every moment what exactly was said, but I remember, I'm still saying

10     that that is what Trajkovic said.  That's what he conveyed to us

11     concerning the engagement of this reserve force of the MUP.

12        Q.   Sir, I think one can't help but notice that the evidence you

13     related in that passage would seem to line up very well with the talking

14     points of Mr. Djordjevic's Defence.  What I'd like to ask you, sir, is,

15     did you specifically make that statement?  Did you specifically recollect

16     those conversations in order to help Mr. Djordjevic's Defence?

17        A.   I did not discuss the details and what I said here about the

18     information provided to us by Mr. Trajkovic, I didn't share these details

19     with anyone except yesterday when I was giving evidence before this

20     Court.  I said what I knew.

21        Q.   Let's move to a different topic, sir.  Going back to Podujevo.

22     After this massacre was committed and after those women and children had

23     been shot, what happened to the Skorpions?

24        A.   When these were killed, it's not the Skorpions, please, it's a

25     reserve force of the MUP.  When these civilians were killed, Simovic -- I

Page 13820

 1     don't know what happened on the spot except what Markovic informed me,

 2     namely that a car was needed to transport these people to the hospital,

 3     and when he came back, he informed me that there were dead people there,

 4     and Simovic --

 5        Q.   Let me stop you.  Let me just focus the question very

 6     specifically.  What happened to these Skorpions or this MUP reserve unit?

 7     Did they remain in Podujevo, or were they sent back, and can you explain

 8     how that happened?  First let me ask you, did they remain in Podujevo

 9     after the incident?

10        A.   After the incident they stayed in Podujevo for another half an

11     hour.  Simovic told Medic when he came to the staff that he should go

12     back with the reservists to Prolom Banja, and they were sent back to

13     Prolom Banja on the same date, that is on the 28th of March, 1999.

14        Q.   Did Mr. Simovic order the Skorpions to go back to Prolom Banja,

15     Skorpions or the MUP reserve force?  Did Mr. Simovic order them back to

16     Prolom Banja?

17        A.   Yes, Simovic instructed not the Skorpions, but Slobodan Medic,

18     aka Boca, and I was present there at the relocated OUP Podujevo staff.

19     He instructed him to get the reserve forces together and to send them

20     back to Prolom Banja from where he had taken him early the previous

21     morning.

22        Q.   Why did Mr. Simovic make that order?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Taken them early the

24     previous morning.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Simovic has issued

Page 13821

 1     an order to Boca to the effect of returning the reserve forces of the MUP

 2     of Republika Serbia because some members of the reserved forces had

 3     committed the crime.

 4             MR. BEHAR:

 5        Q.   So Mr. Simovic was aware of that?  Are you aware that Mr. Simovic

 6     was aware of that, sir, that a crime had been committed?

 7        A.   He only said that the reservists that had been brought committed

 8     the crime and that these particular reserve forces of the MUP of

 9     Republika Serbia were to be sent back to Prolom Banja.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my objection refers

12     to the transcript.  In order to avoid some later misunderstanding, this

13     refers to line 17 where it states that the witness said "early the

14     previous morning," this may create confusion.  I think that the witness

15     corrected himself and said particularly which morning he meant.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar, do you want to follow that up?

17             MR. BEHAR:  I'm not sure I see the issue.  I see both times it

18     says earlier the previous morning.  I'm not sure it's --

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Leave it for Mr. Popovic in re-examination then,

20     if you are not concerned.

21             MR. BEHAR:  Right.  I think I understand the issue, and I don't

22     see a problem with it, and certainly my friend is free to explore it if

23     he does.

24        Q.   Sir, if we can look at a statement you gave once again.

25             MR. BEHAR:  This is 06118 once again.  The English is K054-6915.

Page 13822

 1     Actually, if we could look at page 36 in the B/C/S, in the English page

 2     14.

 3        Q.   Sir, I want to look at the final line here.  You just told us

 4     that Mr. Simovic ordered the Skorpions, or the MUP reserve force as you

 5     are now calling it, to go back to Prolom Banja, but if we look here at

 6     this statement, I'll just read you the last lines, you say -- you said:

 7             "I really don't know why the Skorpions unit was sent back to

 8     Prolom Banja on the same day.  I'm not familiar with that, because, as I

 9     said, I belonged to a completely different unit, which was under my

10     command."

11             Do you recall saying that, sir?  And again, I'm not asking you

12     what happened, I'm asking you, do you remember making that statement?

13        A.   I gave a statement in Prokuplje but I reiterate that it's not

14     about my not knowing about it.  They were a different unit, as I said,

15     the reserve force of the MUP of Republic of Serbia that came on that day

16     and the special unit were two different formations.  As for why this unit

17     was sent back, I was present at this meeting at the relocated staff when

18     Commander Simovic ordered Boca to take them back to Prolom Banja.  I was

19     present there.  But again, I don't know.  As I said, I haven't seen this

20     statement.  At the time when I gave it, I didn't read it, and I didn't

21     sign it.  So I claim with full responsibility that the truth is that I

22     knew that they had been sent back precisely because of the crime they had

23     committed, and that is why Simovic told Boca to do that on that day when

24     we were at the meeting at the staff premises.

25             MR. BEHAR:  If we can just look at the -- quickly look at the

Page 13823

 1     next page in English.  Perhaps it's not there.

 2        Q.   Sir, let me just take you right back then to be as specific I can

 3     about what you said in that statement.  Perhaps we can go back in the

 4     English again.  The very first thing you said in that line, sir is:

 5             "I really don't know why the Skorpions unit was sent back to

 6     Prolom Banja."

 7             You just told us today why it was sent back.  You told us that

 8     you knew Mr. Simovic made that order.  My question to you, sir, is:  Did

 9     you intentionally lie to the court in Prokuplje?

10        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, as I said before, I know, I know that this unit

11     was sent back because of the crime that it committed on that day, and I

12     categorically claim that I was present when Mr. Simovic ordered for them

13     to be sent back because these reservists of the MUP did something, and I

14     claim with full responsibility that this is the truth what I'm telling

15     you now, it's not that I didn't know.  Quite the contrary, I knew about

16     that, however, I did not read this statement, I did not sign it, and I

17     don't know anything about this -- its content.  I see it for the first

18     time.

19        Q.   Sir, did you yourself go back with this Skorpion or MUP reserve

20     unit to Prolom Banja?  Did you accompany them?

21        A.   No, I didn't accompany them when they went to Prolom Banja.

22     After this unit was told to go to Prolom Banja, they complied, but I

23     remained in -- there.  Zoran Simovic was the one who went with them.  He

24     escorted them to Prolom Banja, which is not far away from Podujevo.  I

25     did not escort these men to Prolom Banja.

Page 13824

 1        Q.   Did Mr. Simovic ask you to go with them to Prolom Banja?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, I don't know.  He didn't ask me to do that.

 3        Q.   Because yesterday, sir, or actually, on Monday --

 4             MR. BEHAR:  Perhaps we can look at that.  This is the testimony

 5     of 19th of April at T-13588.

 6        Q.   If we look at line 13, this is what Mr. Simovic said about that,

 7     sir.  I'll just read it, so you'll receive the translation.  Mr. Simovic

 8     said:

 9             "Once I had organised those ambulances for the wound, I was told

10     that there were fatalities, and I decided to take back that reserve unit

11     to Prolom Banja.  I issued an order to my own unit members that they take

12     back to the bus everyone they catch, and when I met up with Mr. Stalevic,

13     I told him to go back with that reserve unit to Prolom Banja."

14             Is that true, sir?

15        A.   I'm saying with full responsibility that Simovic didn't tell me

16     to go to Prolom Banja.  The statement that I gave -- every time I made a

17     statement about that day, I said that I was at the headquarters and that

18     Simovic informed Boca about what happened and that it was Simovic who

19     escorted this unit to Prolom Banja.  I definitely did not leave the

20     Podujevo OUP on that day, or rather the relocated headquarters.  I

21     remained there with men from both units.  When I say "units," I'm talking

22     about Belgrade and Pristina's SAJs.

23             After that event, pursuant to Simovic's order, the reserve forces

24     were sent back to Prolom Banja.

25        Q.   What did Mr. Simovic do with those MUP reservists when he

Page 13825

 1     returned them to Prolom Banja?

 2        A.   I don't understand your question.  Can you please repeat it.  I

 3     don't think I heard it properly.

 4        Q.   Certainly.  You told us that Mr. Simovic returned with the MUP

 5     reservists to Prolom Banja.  What I'm asking you is, what happened when

 6     they returned?  What did Mr. Simovic do when he took them back?

 7        A.   When he came to the headquarters, he notified the Podujevo OUP

 8     about the crime they had committed.  After that when he told Boca to get

 9     people ready to be returned and after he had informed the MUP in Kosovo

10     and Metohija, he sent the men back to Prolom Banja, to the point where he

11     had taken them from on the previous day.

12        Q.   But, you said that Mr. Simovic took them back.  Am I

13     understanding that correctly, did he go back with them?

14        A.   After sending the notification, he came to the headquarters and

15     he instructed Boca to take the reserve forces back.  He informed the

16     command, the staff for the Kosovo and Metohija.  After the reservists set

17     off, he went in his own car towards Prolom Banja first and then further

18     on towards Belgrade.

19        Q.   So that's what I'm asking you about, sir.  When Mr. Simovic went

20     with the reservists to Prolom Banja, what happened?  Did you find out,

21     and I suspect you would find out from him from speaking to him, what did

22     he do in Prolom Banja?

23        A.   He took the reserve forces to Prolom Banja.  He notified the MUP

24     staff, and then he left for Belgrade to attend the funeral of his late

25     fellow officer Radovan Aleksic.

Page 13826

 1        Q.   He also notified Mr. Djordjevic; correct?

 2        A.   The reserve forces of the MUP were returned to Prolom Banja.

 3     Simovic should have informed General Djordjevic as well.  Whether he did

 4     that or not, I really don't know.  I don't know what Simovic did in the

 5     aftermath.

 6        Q.   And can you explain why he should have informed General

 7     Djordjevic?

 8        A.   Well, the reservists who were sent to us were sent immediately

 9     back to Prolom Banja after the crime.  Therefore, they went to the

10     territory of Republic of Serbia.  They were no longer in the territory of

11     Kosovo and Metohija.  They were sent back to Serbia, and we should have

12     sent information to that effect in view of what happened in Podujevo.

13     They were again put at the motel where we had put them, and the organs in

14     charge should have undertaken measures to discover and detect the

15     perpetrators of the crime.

16        Q.   Okay, sir, let's take a bit of a step back here.  I'm going to

17     ask you some more general questions about the SAJ.  Now, the SAJ was part

18     of the public security department; correct?

19        A.   The special anti-terrorist unit of the MUP belonged to the

20     Ministry of Interior, and at the time it was part of the public security

21     department.

22        Q.   And General Djordjevic was the chief or the head of the public

23     security department; correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And if you needed something, if the SAJ needed something,

Page 13827

 1     equipment, materiels, weapons, more men, or guidance, it was General

 2     Djordjevic that your unit would approach; correct?

 3        A.   Not my unit, but the commander of the SAJ would approach the

 4     chief of the department if he needed any equipment or anything else.

 5     That is to say, Zivko Trajkovic, the commander of SAJ.  It was not up to

 6     me to communicate with the head of the department because I had my

 7     commander above me who reported directly to the chief of the department.

 8     And I reported to my commander Zivko Trajkovic.

 9        Q.   Right, and I understand there's a hierarchy, there's a chain of

10     command.  You report to Trajkovic, Mr. Trajkovic reports to Mr.

11     Djordjevic, when you need any of those things I just mentioned; correct?

12        A.   I don't understand your question.  This is the regular way in

13     which SAJ operated.  I don't know what you are asking me about.

14     Trajkovic was with us, and it was him to whom we relayed problems that my

15     unit might have with supplies, equipment, training, et cetera.  According

16     to this logic, it was Trajkovic who should pass on this information to

17     the head of the department.  And that exclusively referred to training

18     and providing equipment.

19        Q.   Okay.  I think that's clear, sir.  I'd like to look at some of

20     the operations that your unit was involved in.

21             MR. BEHAR:  And if we could look at P886, please.  And I'll need

22     page 57 in English, page 59 in B/C/S.

23        Q.   Sir, this is a record of meetings of the Joint Command for Kosovo

24     and Metohija.  These are minutes that were taken for the 23rd of August,

25     1998.

Page 13828

 1             MR. BEHAR:  I see that the B/C/S is upside down.  There we go.

 2        Q.   I just want to ask you about what Mr. Djordjevic said.  Really,

 3     sir, I'll go through it with you and then I'll have a specific question.

 4     You'll see here, sir, that General Djordjevic is speaking at this Joint

 5     Command meeting.  He refers to a number of -- a number of MUP units, the

 6     3rd MUP detachment continue activities around Sedlari, the 2nd

 7     detachment, the 1st detachment, then the special units should proceed to

 8     Duga and link up with Javor and Klecka.  Do you see he is giving this

 9     whole range of instructions, sir, with respect to different forces,

10     different detachments?  What I want to ask you about, sir, is at the very

11     bottom, it says, he says:

12             "Conclusion:  The Prizren and Belgrade companies and the SAJ,

13     special anti-terrorist unit, to proceed along the Dulje-Rance direction."

14             You see that there?  I see you are nodding.  So I'll ask you,

15     sir, do you recall being present in that area?  In other words, do you

16     recall being present along the Dulje-Rance axis at this time, it would be

17     in late August of 1998?

18        A.   Well, I cannot remember exactly now whether I was there or not.

19     It was a long time ago, but from this document, I absolutely cannot see

20     anything.  It is totally illegible.  I've never seen a document of this

21     kind specifying that I had this particular task.

22        Q.   That's fine.  As long as you can understand, I suppose, sir, what

23     I read to you, which I know is interpreted.  But with respect to

24     Dulje-Rance and whether your unit was there, am I understanding correct,

25     you may have been but you are not sure?  Is that fair?

Page 13829

 1        A.   It is possible that I was there.  We are talking about 1998, so

 2     it was possible that I was at Dulje, but I've never seen something like

 3     this.  I really cannot find my bearings in this document, and I cannot

 4     see what my task would be stemming from this document.  I can assure you

 5     that I never received such a task.  I used to receive a map with axis

 6     plotted in it, but something like this was never specifically said to me.

 7        Q.   I understand that, sir.  These are actually just notes from a

 8     meeting that Mr. Djordjevic was at but I wanted to ask you about the

 9     content, and I think you've answered that.  Let me move to

10     Mr. Djordjevic's presence in the field in 1998.  You spoke already today

11     about Mr. Djordjevic in the field.  For my friend, the reference is page

12     12, line 3.  You said you were at Malisevo -- sorry, you said that Mr.

13     Djordjevic was with you in the field in Malisevo between Pristina and Pec

14     and at Cicavica.  Are you able to remember any other times when Mr.

15     Djordjevic was with you in the field, sir?

16        A.   As I said, when we were unblocking the road during those summer

17     actions, I said that I saw him on that occasion on the Lapusky-Kievo-Pec

18     [phoen] road, and we removed those roadblocks at that time.  The second

19     time I saw him was when we were entering Malisevo, and I don't recall the

20     date, the exact date, I saw him at the foot of Mount Cicavica.  So during

21     these combat operations, I saw quite a few refugees there, and as I said,

22     it was in a field where these people were, we gave them food and water

23     from our own supplies.  After that my doctor, Markovic, said Governor,

24     there's a heavily pregnant woman and if you would please provide a

25     vehicle to take her to Pristina.  And I did so.  So, as I said, I saw him

Page 13830

 1     on a number of occasions.

 2        Q.   Was Mr. Djordjevic there with the SAJ, or was he co-ordinating

 3     the personnel -- the MUP personnel more generally?  Let me be clear, was

 4     he there with the SAJ?

 5        A.   No, I was with my SAJ.  The Belgrade SAJ, there was Tetinac as

 6     well, and there was another unit from Novi Sad.  Commander Zivko

 7     Trajkovic commanded the SAJ.  General Vlastimir Djordjevic used to come

 8     to visit the units, not only SAJ units but also PJP units to see whether

 9     they needed anything, how things were going on, et cetera.

10             MR. BEHAR:  I see.  If we could look at P889, please.

11        Q.   Sir, this is an order of the Pristina Corps Command from the 16th

12     of February, 1999.  You can see it's an order, just reading it, calling

13     for the elimination of Albanian terrorist forces in the sector of Malo

14     Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo?

15             MR. BEHAR:  If we look at page 5 in B/C/S and page 6 in English.

16        Q.   Now, just under heading number 5 there, you see where it says

17     "task", you'll see there, sir, it calls for a co-ordinated action between

18     the VJ and the PJP and the SAJ.  Do you see that, sir?

19        A.   I can see that, the reference to the SAJ of the MUP.  I can see

20     that.

21        Q.   Now, what I want to ask you, sir, is do you remember

22     participating in that co-ordinated action?  Were you there on the ground,

23     and do you remember that?

24        A.   I think I took part with my unit in that area, but as for the

25     assignment in this form, it's not an assignment to my unit.  We just

Page 13831

 1     received extracts from topographic maps.  I have never seen this before.

 2        Q.   No, I understand that.  I just wanted to ask you about your

 3     involvement on the ground.

 4             MR. BEHAR:  Let's look now at P85.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, these are the minutes of a MUP staff meeting in

 6     Pristina that took place on the 17th of February, 1999.  And we can see

 7     right at the top of the document, the meeting was attended by Minister

 8     Stojiljkovic, Mr. Djordjevic, Rade Markovic, Obrad Stevanovic, also all

 9     members of the MUP staff including Mr. Lukic, all SUP chiefs, and PJP,

10     and SAJ commanders, in fact, SAJ detachment commanders.

11             Do you recall being present at this meeting, sir?

12        A.   It's certain that I did not attend this meeting.  I see it's

13     written here that all members of the staff attended, and as soon as it

14     says that MUP staff attended, it's certain that I did not because I was

15     not a member of the staff.

16        Q.   But, in fact, sir, many more people attended -- many people

17     attended this meeting, and if you look at the top, it specifically says,

18     and SAJ, or special anti-terrorist unit, detachment commanders.  And the

19     SAJ detachment commanders at this time, according to you, sir, were only

20     yourself and Mr. Simovic; correct?

21        A.   Well, you see, when you read this it reads clearly, members of

22     the staff, Zivko Trajkovic was a member of the staff.  And at these

23     meetings, Simovic and I had absolutely no need to attend because our

24     units were small and there was no need.  That's why Zivko Trajkovic was

25     appointed as a member of the staff for combatting terrorism in Kosovo.  I

Page 13832

 1     did not attend this meeting.

 2        Q.   Well, let's move to look at the content, sir.  If we look at --

 3     just staying on the first page about two-thirds of the way down.

 4     Unfortunately, it's one long paragraph, but there's a line -- maybe we

 5     can just scroll both pages down to the bottom.  Mr. Lukic says:

 6             "A plan of the RJB, public security department, has been worked

 7     out..." do you see that, where he says "a plan of the RJB has been worked

 8     out"?  Towards the bottom in the B/C/S, sir.

 9        A.   No, I don't see it.  Where is it?

10        Q.   Let me just read it then, sir.  You'll receive the translation.

11     Mr. Lukic says:

12             "A plan of the RJB has been worked out to prevent and thwart the

13     entry of NATO troops into our territory."  Then he says:  "The staff

14     plans, when it is ordered, to carry out three mopping-up operations in

15     the Podujevo, Dragobilja, and Drenica areas, but was waiting for an order

16     to do so."

17             Do you see that, sir, or do you at least understand as you

18     received the translation?

19        A.   What you've just read, I understood in interpretation, but I did

20     not attend meeting, and I don't know what Sreten Lukic said there.

21        Q.   Let me ask you more specifically, sir, do you recall

22     participating in those mop-up operations in Podujevo, Dragobilja, and

23     Drenica, in those areas?

24        A.   I've already said that I had taken part in operations, actions,

25     but not actions of mopping up.  I said I took part in that action when

Page 13833

 1     combat began in Malo Kosovo and that's precisely Bradas village and the

 2     area I've been talking about from the beginning.  I was there with my

 3     unit in 1999.  And I think it was the 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th March when

 4     the air-strikes began.  My unit was involved in the work to destroy

 5     terrorist groups in villages Palatna, Metohija, Bradas, that area.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's follow along then.  If we look at page 4 in the

 7     B/C/S and page 3 in English.  Now, this is the Minister Stojiljkovic is

 8     putting forward a number of forthcoming tasks for everyone in the MUP.

 9     And you we'll see one of them towards the end, I'll just point this out

10     to you, sir, one of them is "more effective inclusion and engagement of

11     the SAJ."  It's the third from the bottom.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes, I can see that.  I can see that written.

13        Q.   So this would have been not long before, as you've just

14     described, the Podujevo operation and those other operations that you

15     went to perform, correct?  This is mid-February and what you were talking

16     about was towards the end of March?

17        A.   Here at this meeting it was said that the unit should be better

18     and more deeply engaged because NATO air-strikes against our country were

19     about to begin, and it's a conclusion of this meeting that we should get

20     involved, we should be more engaged in these actions.

21        Q.   Now, another -- another point forthcoming task that the minister

22     puts out here, sir, I believe it's the 12th from the top, if you can

23     count down, this is what I'd like your comment on.  He says, the minister

24     says:

25             "Approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their

Page 13834

 1     engagement through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary."

 2             Do you see that, sir?

 3             MR. BEHAR:  I'm not sure if it's on that page in B/C/S.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             MR. BEHAR:  Perhaps we can go back a page in B/C/S.

 6        Q.   It should be actually at the bottom.

 7        A.   I can see it now.

 8        Q.   Right.  I'll just read it again one more time so we are clear.

 9             "Approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their

10     engagement through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary."

11             Do you follow that?

12        A.   It's written here, but I don't know who said this, and I did not

13     attend this meeting anyway, so I can't know what was said there.

14        Q.   Well, the minister said it, and if we could scroll back one page

15     in the B/C/S, you can see it, and in the English.

16        A.   Just a moment.  It says "engage volunteers" in this passage.  We,

17     the special anti-terrorist unit, never had any volunteers, and the

18     ministry never had any volunteers.

19        Q.   That's, in fact, just what I wanted to ask you, sir, because in

20     fact, engaging volunteers into the police was not allowed, was it?

21        A.   As far as I know, the police does not have any volunteers.  At

22     that time in the police we only had reserve forces of the MUP.  Certainly

23     not volunteers.

24        Q.   And to go the one step further, sir, in fact, using volunteers in

25     the police would be contrary to law, would it not?

Page 13835

 1        A.   Well, according to our regulations in the ministry, we don't have

 2     volunteers.  Volunteers do not exist.  We never had any.  I can only

 3     answer to that.  As for the rest, we never had any reserve force in the

 4     MUP.  Sorry, sorry, I made a mistake, we didn't have any volunteer units,

 5     and volunteer units do not exist in the MUP.

 6        Q.   So I guess what I'm putting to you, sir, is it would not be legal

 7     to simply engage a bunch of volunteers, put them in a uniform and then

 8     insert them into the police; is that correct?

 9        A.   I maintain with full responsibility that we did not have any

10     volunteers within our reserve force.  We did not have any volunteers

11     among reservists.  There were reservists engaged by the MUP of the

12     Republic of Serbia, namely the administration for the police of the

13     Ministry of the Interior.  They were the reserve force.  That was

14     organised by the MUP, and we did not have volunteers ever.

15             MR. BEHAR:  If we can look at P356, please.

16        Q.   Now, sir, this is a dispatch that was sent from Mr. Djordjevic to

17     all SUPs, to the MUP staff, and to a number of others, as you'll see at

18     the top of the page there.  You can see this was sent out the very next

19     day following the meeting that I just showed you.

20             MR. BEHAR:  Perhaps we can just very quickly look at the final

21     page, and I'll show you that it does indeed come from Mr. Djordjevic.

22     Now, if we could look at page 2 in the B/C/S and page 3 in English.

23        Q.   Looking at point number 7, very top of the English and towards

24     the bottom in the B/C/S, Mr. Djordjevic says:

25             "Through intensified intelligence and other measures and actions,

Page 13836

 1     carry out the necessary checks, compile lists, and establish complete

 2     control over volunteer and paramilitary units and their members."

 3             Do you see that, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   So it would appear from this, sir, that Mr. Djordjevic is looking

 6     to make use of volunteers and paramilitary units and for the ministry to

 7     exert control over them.  Do you agree with that?

 8        A.   No, I don't agree with that.  I've never seen this before.  And

 9     anyway, I can't see the statement, which you are referring to, concerning

10     complete control over volunteer and paramilitary units.  I maintain with

11     full responsibility that the Ministry of Interior never had a

12     paramilitary or a volunteer unit in the force where I worked.

13        Q.   What were the Skorpions, sir?  Were the Skorpions not a

14     paramilitary unit?

15        A.   The Skorpions, emphasising again, when they came to us, they were

16     a reserve unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia engaged in conformity

17     with the prevailing procedure.  The minister had made a decision, and

18     they were sent to us to Prolom Banja.  They were brought to us and turned

19     back the same day, and the second time around when Zivko Trajkovic

20     brought them, they were part of our unit.

21        Q.   Sir, I understand well that they were made part of your unit.  My

22     question for you is, were the Skorpions a paramilitary unit?

23        A.   No, the Skorpions were a reserve force of the MUP engaged by the

24     Ministry of the Interior.

25        Q.   Okay.  Then let me put it somewhat differently --

Page 13837

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic has been waiting patiently.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I actually have three

 4     objections in one.  First of all, the witness has never at any moment

 5     mentioned Skorpions in his evidence, and to put words in his mouth as to

 6     what kind of unit they were is not based on his evidence.  Second, when

 7     the witness is shown documents, the first thing to be asked is whether he

 8     knows anything about the document because if we look at the first page,

 9     we'll see this document had never been made available to his unit.  And,

10     third, we should also take care to -- of the extent to which this unit

11     can be helpful concerning legislation and certain other matters that are

12     being brought up now.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I make the observation, Mr. Popovic, that this is

14     cross-examination.  It's not examination-in-chief.  He may be asked if a

15     Skorpion unit was a paramilitary unit.  He has no bother, as I've

16     listened to his evidence, in answering that question just as the

17     reference to Skorpions appears many times in statements that he has made.

18             Carry on, please.

19             MR. BEHAR:

20        Q.   Sir, to re-approach this issue with the Skorpions, what I want to

21     ask you is, were the Skorpions a known paramilitary unit before they

22     became part of the MUP reserve force?

23        A.   No, no, they were not.  Before they came in, I did not know them

24     as Skorpions.  In 1999, I knew them as a reserve force of the MUP when

25     they came to join us, and I did not know of any earlier name they had had

Page 13838

 1     maybe from before.

 2        Q.   Knowing what you know now, sir, today, do you accept that the

 3     Skorpions were a paramilitary unit before they joined the MUP reserve

 4     force?

 5        A.   Before they joined the reserve force of the MUP, I was never

 6     aware that they had been a paramilitary unit.  I know that once they

 7     joined, they were the reserve force of the MUP.

 8        Q.   I'm saying, sir, knowing what you know today, what you know now,

 9     would you agree that the Skorpions were a paramilitary unit before they

10     joined the MUP reserve force?

11        A.   I'm just saying about the period when they joined us, that was a

12     reserve unit of the MUP, a reserve unit of the Ministry of the Interior

13     that had undergone the procedure of approval to be attached as our

14     reserve.

15        Q.   I don't think I am getting an answer, sir, but I see we are at

16     the time for the break.  I'm in the hands of the Court.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll have the second break now and we resume at

18     1.00.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

22                          [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Behar.

24             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Welcome back, sir.  I want to spend the remainder of our day

Page 13839

 1     talking somewhat more generally about the SAJ.  Now, members of the SAJ

 2     were normally selected from amongst the ranks of regular police through a

 3     vetting process; is that correct?

 4        A.   Members of the SAJ were selected from amongst the best police

 5     officers within the then-secretariats.  Very often we would choose

 6     members from the secondary school of the interior in Sremska Kamenica

 7     after a year or two of schooling if they proved to be good.  They were

 8     most often good students, good athletes, and they had good physical --

 9     physical characteristics that would be suitable for the service.

10        Q.   And you, in fact, had recruiters that would look closely at the

11     mental and the physical capacities and qualities of any potential

12     candidate for the SAJ; is that right?

13        A.   Not a single candidate could be admitted unless first we have

14     completed all the physical checks with them, medical examinations, and

15     other tests.  After that, they would undergo training and I would take

16     part in the selection process.  Only after that, if they proved to be

17     satisfactory during training, could they become members of the special

18     anti-terrorist unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.  So only and

19     exclusively such candidates would be admitted.

20        Q.   And then once these candidates were admitted and into the SAJ,

21     then they were, in fact, intensively trained; correct?  You had a

22     significant amount of training for all of your SAJ members?

23        A.   That was the standard training according to plans for the SAJ

24     including the recruitment and selection of members of the SAJ.

25        Q.   Is it fair to say, sir, that you regarded yourself within the SAJ

Page 13840

 1     as the best of the best from within the MUP?

 2        A.   Well, it would be immodest for me to say that.  As I said

 3     yesterday in my evidence, I was sent from the SAJ as a police officer

 4     because I was a good student at the military academy, and as such, I was

 5     admitted into the SAJ.  In my opinion, I think I was good, but I cannot

 6     say that I was the best of them.  However, I was the commander of the SAJ

 7     of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia in Pristina.

 8        Q.   Sir, I heard that one of the mottos or saying that the SAJ had

 9     was, we train for years for a job that takes seconds to complete.  Are

10     you familiar with that?  Was that something you've heard?

11        A.   Well, I've never heard such a saying.  We were being trained for

12     every-day tasks.  As much as we were trained, we were capable of

13     providing the performance that was incorporated in what you are saying

14     and you are citing.  It is true that we were an elite unit, that we were

15     well trained, and that we were capable to act as an elite unit of the MUP

16     of the Republic of Serbia.

17        Q.   Well, I read that quote in a long article written about the SAJ,

18     but what I took it to reflect, sir, was the difficulty of the job that

19     your unit has to do.  And, in fact, you carry weapons that have great

20     destructive force, and it's not safe, certainly, for just anyone to be

21     walking around with weapons of that strength; would you agree with that?

22        A.   I didn't understand your question as you put it.  I didn't

23     understand the question.

24        Q.   Let me put it again, sir.  The reason for all of this great

25     selection and care into who gets into the SAJ, and the reason for all

Page 13841

 1     this training for your men is because you do, in fact, a very difficult

 2     and a very delicate job.  Would you agree with that?

 3        A.   The training of our police officers was specific.  As I said

 4     yesterday, as a unit, we were intended to combat terrorism, to be

 5     involved in the incidents of disturbance of public law and order to a

 6     greater extent, including hijacking of planes and other transportation

 7     means, and we had to undergo high-quality training for that, and we had

 8     high-quality members in the SAJ.

 9        Q.   And as members of the SAJ, sir, you carry powerful weapons that

10     could, in fact, if in the wrong hands or if not handled responsibly,

11     could be very dangerous; correct?

12        A.   We didn't have what you are saying we had.  Our people were

13     trained to handle weapons.  They were well prepared for every possible

14     task, and I was always with them, so it could never happen that they

15     might abuse the weapons that you are mentioning, so they were well

16     trained for the tasks that they were expected to carry out.  That is why

17     we trained them, that is why we had medical checks, psychological checks,

18     all kinds of tests that have to be carried out with a unit of that kind.

19        Q.   Sir, with all of this careful selection, with all of this

20     training for your SAJ member, what I have trouble understanding is that

21     when you have these men, these men who call themselves the Skorpions,

22     within minutes of getting off of the bus for their very first deployment

23     gathered up unarmed civilians including women and children and use those

24     weapons issued to them to kill, to kill civilians.  What I have trouble

25     understanding, sir, is how men of this calibre could be integrated into

Page 13842

 1     your elite SAJ unit?

 2        A.   You asked me several questions here.  SAJ was an elite unit.

 3     This reserve force of the MUP that you mentioned was never part of the

 4     SAJ.  They were MUP reserve forces, and I was talking about the SAJ and

 5     police members of a special anti-terrorist unit.

 6        Q.   Well, we heard quite clearly yesterday, sir, from Mr. Simovic,

 7     that the intention was to join them up with the SAJ, and, in fact, that

 8     was being concluded, according to him, right before the massacre took

 9     place, so regardless, and we may not agree on that, but it's clear that

10     the intention was always for them to join the SAJ unit; isn't that right?

11        A.   That is not right.  They were brought there as the MUP reserve

12     forces, and they were brought to Podujevo.  They were not included in our

13     reserve forces of our units.  They were not attached to our units.  After

14     this crime, Mr. Simovic ordered Boca to return them from where they had

15     come from, that is to say, to Prolom Banja.

16        Q.   But then some weeks later, sir, they were, in fact, incorporated

17     into your SAJ unit; correct?  Were they not redeployed to the SAJ?

18        A.   They were not deployed in the SAJ.  When they returned a few

19     weeks later, the proposal of Zivko Trajkovic remained the reserve force

20     of the MUP.  Upon their arrival in late April, they were divided between

21     me and Simovic, and part of that unit was incorporated in our further

22     tasks.  So only second time around when they arrived, Zivko Trajkovic,

23     the commander gave a number of men to me and to the commander of the

24     Belgrade SAJ.  We provided billeting headquarters for those men.  We

25     checked what their military specialties were, and after this -- the

Page 13843

 1     reserve forces of the MUP were attached to us, we proceeded with carrying

 2     out the tasks that were assigned to us.

 3        Q.   So they were then, incorporated into the SAJ.  But let me ask you

 4     this, sir, is it fair to say that these mean, these MUP reservists and

 5     self-named Skorpions, had absolutely no business being armed, uniformed,

 6     transported, and then joined up with your highly trained SAJ units?  Is

 7     that a fair comment, sir, that they did not belong in the ranks of the

 8     SAJ?

 9        A.   This is a very long question, and you are at the same time

10     providing an answer.  I'm telling you those were reserve forces of the

11     Serbian MUP, which pursuant to the then-MUP minister, Vlajko

12     Stojiljkovic, were engaged, or rather, admitted into the reserve force,

13     and it was supposed to be attached to us on the 28th when Tetinac or

14     rather, Simovic brought them to Podujevo.

15        Q.   Let me ask you this more directly, sir.  In your view, was it

16     irresponsible to take these men and incorporate them into the MUP reserve

17     unit?  You know your men, you know these men, in your view, was it

18     irresponsible?

19        A.   My opinion is with regard to this and to readmittance is the

20     following:  Zivko Trajkovic, the then-commander of --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the title of

22     Mr. Zivko Trajkovic.  The interpreters didn't catch that.

23             MR. BEHAR:

24        Q.   Sir, we didn't get the interpretation after you said something

25     about Zivko Trajkovic.  If you could perhaps just repeat your answer

Page 13844

 1     again.  You said my opinion is with regard to this, and to readmittance

 2     is the following:  Zivko Trajkovic, then if you could just repeat your

 3     answer, please.

 4        A.   Yes, Zivko Trajkovic guaranteed that these men would carry out

 5     their tasks in an extremely responsible and professional way once they

 6     were admitted into the reserve forces of MUP when he brought them to

 7     Kosovo Polje second time around which took place in late April.

 8        Q.   Well, sir, would one person guaranteeing something give you as a

 9     professional enough confidence that men who had been involved in an

10     incident as serious as that massacre could be trusted once again to be?

11     deployed?

12        A.   As I said, and I would like to underline that, Commander

13     Trajkovic or special units of MUP of the Republic of Serbia guaranteed

14     for these men that they would act in an honourable and professional way.

15     Why should I not believe my commander that that wouldn't be the case?

16             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see D401, please.

17        Q.   Now, sir, the obligation for your men to be qualified was, in

18     fact, directly stated in this decision that governs the existence of the

19     SAJ.  If we can look at paragraph number 2.  So this is the decision that

20     established the SAJ.  And paragraph number 2 it says:

21             "It shall also be the task of the SAJ to maintain the necessary

22     level of professional and mental and physical fitness of its members for

23     carrying out tasks and responsibilities from Article 1 of this item in

24     accordance with the plan and programme for training the SAJ."

25             So do you see that, sir?

Page 13845

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, would it be possible to incorporate a bunch of men into

 3     your unit without knowing at all what their qualifications were?  In

 4     other words, let me be more specific about that, sir.  Before anyone was

 5     going to incorporate some men into the MUP reserve and then into your

 6     unit to fight with the SAJ, the person doing that would need to know who

 7     they were, what they had been doing before, what kind of weapons

 8     experience did they have, and what had happened if they had fought

 9     before, what happened when they fought before?  Do you agree, sir, that

10     the person who made the decision would need to know all of that

11     information?

12        A.   I do not agree with you because the decision on the reserve force

13     was taken by the minister of the interior, and after that, the commander

14     of the unit Trajkovic was in charge.  I'm still maintaining that this was

15     the reserve force of the MUP and not the reserve force of the special

16     unit.  The special unit had never had amongst its ranks any reserve

17     forces.  As I told you, there used to be SAJ Belgrade, SAJ Pristina, and

18     SAJ Novi Sad, and SAJ commander Trajkovic was based in Belgrade.

19        Q.   We can even leave aside for a moment, sir, which specific person

20     made the decision.  In fact, I'll come to that in a moment, but what I'd

21     like you to answer is, anyone, anyone who was involved in the decision of

22     incorporating these men into the MUP reserve, they would have to know who

23     the men were, what they were doing, what they had been doing before, what

24     experience they had; do you agree, sir?  All these things would need to

25     be known by the people that made that decision?

Page 13846

 1        A.   Well, as far as this is concerned, that all should have been done

 2     by the police administration of the MUP.  They should have carried out

 3     this vetting procedure.  The Ministry of the Interior of Republic of

 4     Serbia could not admit anyone.  I'm speaking specifically, for example,

 5     about the people with criminal record and, therefore, they would not be

 6     allowed to carry out those duties.  That applied to people who had served

 7     in the military.  Unless they hadn't served in the military, they

 8     couldn't be admitted into MUP.  Those were some basic principles that had

 9     to be abided by when people were admitted into the reserve forces.

10        Q.   Now, sir, if we can continue looking at this document.  Let's

11     look at paragraph number 5, if we can just scroll down in the English and

12     the B/C/S.  You can read this --

13              MR. BEHAR:  We need the next page in the B/C/S, I see.

14        Q.   So I'll read this aloud, sir, but you can read it as well on the

15     page.  It says:

16             "The provision of Articles 4 to 6 of the regulations on job

17     planning in the Ministry of the Interior," it goes on, "shall be

18     applicable to questions pertaining to internships, probationary work, and

19     exceptional assignment to posts of the SAJ after first obtaining

20     permission from the chief of the department of public security."

21             So, sir, there are a number of things listed there, and one of

22     them is exceptional assignment to posts of the SAJ, and this item,

23     sir, specifically says that first the permission needed to be obtained

24     from the chief of the department, who was Mr. Djordjevic.  Do you see

25     that section here, sir?

Page 13847

 1        A.   Could you just explain which passage.  Is it number 5?  Issues

 2     related to probationary work, internships.  I have to explain that the

 3     word here is not members [B/C/S spoken], it's[B/C/S spoken].  That's

 4     young officers on trial period whom we took from secretariats, and I said

 5     already, we took them for testing, screening, fitness tests,

 6     psychological tests.  This provision applies to them and their admission,

 7     and that means they undergo procedure before being admitted into SAJ.

 8        Q.   I understand that, sir, and, in fact, if we look, this is talking

 9     specifically about people who are going to be brought into the SAJ, made

10     members of the SAJ, and it says -- it deals with three questions,

11     questions pertaining to internships, probationary work, and the last one

12     is exceptional assignment to posts of the SAJ, and then, sir, it says:

13             "For any of those things, permission needs to first be obtained

14     from the chief of the department of public security."

15             Do you follow that?

16        A.   I can see that.  I've already said that.  The chief of the public

17     security department is the one who approves the plan of training, and in

18     this period indicated here, he was the one who approved the plan and he

19     helped us with equipment and other supplies to the unit, and as far as I

20     can see, this paragraph applies to that.

21        Q.   And, in fact, sir, the chief of the department is the only senior

22     leadership position that's identified in this entire document; correct?

23     It refers to the chief of the department.  There's no other reference in

24     this document to other senior leadership positions?  In fact, I don't

25     even see any reference to the minister, sir.

Page 13848

 1        A.   I think the decision was adopted by the minister.  It's written

 2     at the bottom of the page.  But regarding this paragraph you are asking

 3     me about, it refers to young employees on trial period, trainees,

 4     et cetera.  We worked in special anti-terrorist units, Pristina, Novi

 5     Sad, and Belgrade.  We trained them, and we prepared them for admission

 6     into the special anti-terrorist units, and by that I mean us commanders

 7     of these three SAJ units.

 8        Q.   Well, I agree with you, sir, that this paragraph is dealing in

 9     several respects with admission into the special anti-terrorist unit.  I

10     would point out as well, one of the things is that -- where there were to

11     be exceptional assignments, you see that phrase, "exceptional

12     assignments"?  Any exceptional assignment to be posted to the SAJ

13     required the permission of the chief of the department.  And that was Mr.

14     Djordjevic; correct?

15        A.   I can't give any comment on this, and from what you see -- from

16     what you are saying, I don't think the chief of department could do that.

17     It was in my exclusive competence to train, to prepare people, and to

18     propose admission into the SAJ.  That's concerning my unit.  The

19     commander of the second unit did the same for his unit and the third unit

20     the same.

21        Q.   Sir, you've told us several times today that these men, the

22     Skorpions, were introduced to your unit by the way of the MUP reserve.

23     You keep referring to them as MUP reservists.  So if we can, let's look

24     at the Law of Internal Affairs and see what that says about reserves.

25             MR. BEHAR:  If we could see P66.  If we can see page 9 in the

Page 13849

 1     English and page 3 in the B/C/S.  Page 9 in the English.

 2        Q.   So, sir, let's look at Article 27 together, if we can.  You see

 3     Article 27 there, I'll just read it.  It says:

 4             "In case of an imminent" --

 5        A.   Just a moment.  Can we zoom in on this article.  I can't really

 6     see it.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   The article says, sir:

 8             "In case of an imminent threat of war or war, the Ministry of the

 9     Interior shall be brought up to strength with conscripts from the reserve

10     force of the ministry."

11             And then this is what I want to ask you about, sir.  The next

12     paragraph, says:

13             "Only conscripts meeting the requirements prescribed by the law

14     for work in the ministry may be assigned to the reserve force of the

15     Ministry of Interior."

16             Do you see that, sir?

17        A.   I can see that.

18        Q.   So, I take it, sir, as a commander of a unit that took on these

19     MUP reserves, this legal provision is something you would have been aware

20     of; correct?

21        A.   Well, I knew that they are supposed to have completed their

22     military service and to be conscripts.

23        Q.   And, in fact, sir, this article specifically is catered to or

24     directed to an imminent threat of war or war.  So, in fact, this is what

25     applies during a war or during an imminent threat of war; correct?  This

Page 13850

 1     isn't a peacetime provision only.

 2        A.   Now, upon admission into the reserve force of the MUP, this job

 3     was done by the administration, the relevant administration within the

 4     MUP, and they handled the entire procedure for admission of members into

 5     the reserve force.

 6        Q.   In fact, sir, there are a number of laws that govern

 7     qualifications, both for reservists and of course for members of the

 8     police, but I would suggest to you that one of the main reasons, if not

 9     the main reason to have those laws and regulations was to prevent the

10     possibility that a group like this, like these self-named Skorpions, a

11     group that contained criminals would be heavily armed by the state, would

12     be deployed into civilian areas, and that they would kill people.  Would

13     you agree, sir, that that was one of the purposes, if not the main

14     purpose for such laws?

15        A.   I would not agree with you.  They were a reserve force of the

16     ministry, and I have to emphasise once again, that screening for these

17     men who were admitted into this reserve force was handled by employees of

18     the ministry.  They had conducted the vetting and screening, both looking

19     into records and checking that they had done their military service.

20        Q.   Sir, was the fact that these men were admitted into the MUP

21     reserve, these men who called themselves the Skorpions, was this not a

22     failure of the process?

23        A.   When these people joined the reserve force of the ministry, from

24     that moment on, I know them as the reserve force of the Ministry of the

25     Interior, not as Skorpions.

Page 13851

 1        Q.   Sir, at what point did you learn that these men were the

 2     Skorpions?  At what point did you learn that it was the Skorpions who

 3     would be joining you?

 4        A.   I did not know when they were coming from the MUP of the Republic

 5     of Serbia.  I did not know of any such name as the Skorpions.  Long

 6     afterwards did I learn that this was the Skorpion unit.  Later on.  At

 7     that time I did not know.  To me, as a commanding officer, they were a

 8     reserve force of the MUP.

 9        Q.   Sir, when did you learn that they were the Skorpions?  You said

10     much later.  When?

11        A.   Well, sometime in 2002 or 2003 I learned of that name, the

12     Skorpions.  I think it was in 2002.  As for the period before, Zivko

13     Trajkovic told us at the time that he had been there and that he knew

14     that man Mrgud.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Popovic.

16             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the record, this

17     is a very important point.  Line 23, page 72, the witness did not say

18     that this was the Skorpion unit.  He said that some of those men were

19     Skorpions.  We can, of course, check by listening to the tapes, but since

20     it is entered into the transcript in this language, I had to intervene

21     now.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  You want that checked?

23             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll have that done.

25             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you.

Page 13852

 1        Q.   Sir, you said you learned, you think, in 2002.  How did you learn

 2     in 2002 that these were the Skorpions?

 3        A.   Then and now, I'm saying that this unit when they came to us,

 4     that was a unit from the reserve force of the MUP of the Republic of

 5     Serbia.  That unit was the reserve force of the MUP of Republic of

 6     Serbia, and I really really did not know that they -- that those were

 7     Skorpions.

 8        Q.   We have that position from you, sir.  What I'm asking you is,

 9     when you did find out that they were called the Skorpions - you say it

10     was in 2002 - how did you find out that they were the Skorpions at that

11     time?

12        A.   In 2002 when I was making a statement or giving evidence, I heard

13     somebody called them or referred to them as Skorpions.  That means in

14     2002.  That year, the year in question, 1999, I did not know that they

15     were Skorpions.  I claimed for a fact that they were the reserve force of

16     the MUP.

17             MR. BEHAR:  I see we are at the break time, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it the case that you are deliberately delaying

19     tending certain matters into evidence that were considered today?

20             MR. BEHAR:  There were some matters, which I believe I will use,

21     the earlier 65 ter documents that I was -- I think I will use some more.

22     I'm not sure if I've omitted to tender a recent document.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  So you prefer to wait until tomorrow, is that it?

24             MR. BEHAR:  I think that would be best, and I will certainly

25     revisit and see if I've forgotten anything as well.

Page 13853

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We adjourn now.  We resume at 9.00

 2     tomorrow morning.  A Court Officer will assist you during the break.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

 5                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of April,

 6                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.