Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14151

 1                           Monday, 17 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning to everybody.  This morning we sit to

 6     hear by videolink the balance of evidence of a witness.  There are

 7     various witness protections in place so that the witness is to be heard

 8     under a pseudonym and with voice and face distortion among other matters.

 9     I will speak to the Court Officer in Belgrade.  The witness is ready now,

10     is he?

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours, that's

12     correct, the witness is in the waiting room, and he is ready to testify.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I am, sorry, we were not able to hear you then.

14     Could you repeat what you were saying.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, good morning, Your Honours,

16     the witness is ready to testify, and he is in the waiting room.  And I'm

17     ready it to bring him upon your direction.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you mind repeating that again, we are having

19     trouble getting the right sound balance.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours, I hope

21     I'm getting through loud and clear now.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  And again.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] good morning, Your Honours, I hope

24     I'm getting through loud and clear now.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, that's coming better now.

Page 14152

 1             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             And the witness is ready to testify.  He is in the waiting room,

 3     and I can escort him in once Your Honours so direct me.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  If you could do that now.  Thank you.

 5                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning to you, Mr. Witness.  Would you

 7     please read aloud the affirmation that is shown to you now.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not hearing the interpretation.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you read aloud the affirmation that is shown

10     to you now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it now.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you read that out aloud.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.  Now, if

16     you would just pause a moment and we will speak to counsel.

17             Mr. Djurdjic.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a technical

19     problem with the interpretation for the accused.  The accused is not

20     getting interpretation.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  We have found you need full volume on the red for

22     the communication from Belgrade, and then separately a reduced volume on

23     the in-court.  Would the interpreters please continue their

24     interpretation of what I am now saying to try and assist.  And we have

25     now been introduced a hum from some further microphone, which has been

Page 14153

 1     introduced into the circuit just to add to the technical difficulties.

 2     We appear now to have sound in the courtroom in B/C/S, but we do have

 3     that additional hum that has been introduced during that exercise.

 4             Well, we will proceed now.

 5             Now, Mr. Behar, are there any problems with you at the moment?

 6             MR. BEHAR:  Not thus far, Your Honour.  I was, I thought, having

 7     some difficulty receiving the interpretation on the red channel, but I'm

 8     hoping it will be fine, and I'll certainly let you know if I have any

 9     problems going forward.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Now, witness, thank you for that.  We

11     are getting the technicalities adjusted so that we can be sure to both

12     hear and see you and receive interpretation.  We think those matters are

13     now corrected and what the Chamber will do is first of all ask Mr. Behar

14     if he has any additional questions for you.  And we'll do that now.

15             Mr. Behar.

16             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, Your Honours, I thought I would address the

17     Chamber very briefly just to set out what I plan to do in brief this

18     morning.  I had proposed to first have the witness confirm his identity,

19     then read in a brief witness summary as we normally do with 92 ter

20     witnesses.  And I do propose just to have a couple of very brief

21     questions, and I do understand that the purpose of this is really

22     primarily for cross-examination.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  That is correct, Mr. Behar.  As you will recall,

24     when the witness was unable to attend much earlier in the trial, the

25     Chamber received the statement of the witness that he is now available

Page 14154

 1     primarily for cross-examination.  Therefore, if you could proceed as you

 2     propose quickly, we can move to cross-examination very shortly.

 3             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you.

 4                           WITNESS:  K87

 5                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Examination by Mr. Behar:

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   I wanted to begin by having you look briefly at a document that

11     contains some personal information related to you.  If you could look at

12     P1417.  I believe it should be the last tab in the materials that you

13     have there.  Have you found that material, sir?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If you could just read that quietly to yourself.

16     Sir, is the information on that document, your name and your date and

17     place of birth correct?

18        A.   Yes, they are correct.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.

20             MR. BEHAR:  I would note that that has already been made a sealed

21     exhibit.

22        Q.   And just a reminder now, sir, I will be referring to you as K87

23     today in order to protect your identity.  We are also making use of image

24     and voice distortion.  Sir, I can indicate to you and to the Chamber that

25     there are several materials relating to your evidence that are already

Page 14155

 1     admitted in evidence, and this was pursuant to this Chamber's order of

 2     the 28th of October of 2009.  There's your witness statement through this

 3     Tribunal, that's P1414.  There's a redacted version of your witness

 4     statement, that's P1415.  There's a transcript of your testimony from the

 5     Milutinovic case, that's P1416.  There's the pseudonym sheet that you

 6     just referred to, that's P1417.  And there's also a supplemental

 7     information sheet for changes that you had provided or new things you had

 8     said to the Prosecution when you testified in Milutinovic case, and

 9     that's D392.

10             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, I would now proceed to read a brief

11     summary of the witness's evidence.

12             K87 is a Serb who was employed as a MUP officer during the time

13     in question.  In 1996, he was assigned to the SAJ and based in Batajnica

14     near Belgrade at the 13 Maj training centre.  He describes the structure

15     and layout of the 13 Maj training centre, noting that the SAJ left the

16     13 Maj centre for a period of time after the war started.

17             The witness explains that he received a telephone call from

18     Vlastimir Djordjevic sometime around mid-April of 1999.  Mr. Djordjevic

19     directed him to go to his office the following morning, where the two of

20     them met alone.  Mr. Djordjevic directed him to facilitate the burial of

21     a large number of human bodies that were contained in trucks that had

22     been driven to the 13 Maj centre.  Mr. Djordjevic gave him specific

23     directions as to where and how to bury the bodies.  The witness and

24     another MUP officer participated in burying the bodies, as directed by

25     Mr. Djordjevic.

Page 14156

 1             Mr. Djordjevic contacted the witness on several more occasions,

 2     and the witness facilitated the burial of more bodies.  He was contacted

 3     by telephone by another person after these burials, who asked him to

 4     confirm that the bodies were buried.  The witness later advised the

 5     commander of the SAJ the bodies were being buried at the centre.

 6             That is the end of the summary.

 7        Q.   Sir, I just wanted to ask you a couple of very brief questions

 8     and then counsel for Mr. Djordjevic will have certainly many more

 9     questions for you.  Sir, were you familiar with Radovan Aleksic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And did you attend his funeral?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Was Mr. Trajkovic at that funeral as well?

14        A.   He was, yes.

15        Q.   And did you speak to him, to Mr. Trajkovic at the funeral?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Sir, do you recall how long after Mr. Aleksic's death that

18     funeral took place?

19        A.   Whose death?  Whose funeral?  The question is not clear to me.

20        Q.   Sure.  I'm just trying to get a sense, sir, if you remember when

21     that funeral was?

22        A.   You are asking me if I know the date when Mr. Aleksic was buried,

23     is that your question?

24        Q.   That's correct.  What date was that funeral, if you recall?

25        A.   I don't remember, no.

Page 14157

 1        Q.   Do you recall how long after Mr. Aleksic's death the funeral took

 2     place?  Was there a long delay between the time when he died and when the

 3     funeral took place, or was it relatively fast?

 4        A.   Not too much time passed, but I'm not sure.  What does that mean,

 5     was he buried quickly?  I don't know.  Do you mean was the funeral itself

 6     quick?  I don't know.  The questions are put in such a way that I don't

 7     really understand them all that well.  Does that mean -- what does it

 8     mean, was the burial or the funeral held quickly?

 9        Q.   I was just trying to get a sense, sir, of how long after the

10     death of Mr. Aleksic his funeral took place.  I think you've answered

11     that already.  You've said not too much time passed.  Does that sound

12     correct, sir?  Do you understand what I'm asking now?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, I understand.  And I think that, yes, not too much

14     time passed.  I don't know exactly how much time, but not a lot, no.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir, those are my questions for you at this

16     time.

17        A.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Behar.

19             Now, the Chamber will ask Mr. Popovic who represents the accused

20     man Mr. Djordjevic, if he has some questions for you.

21             Mr. Popovic.

22             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

23     Defence -- in view of the health of the witness, the Defence will do its

24     best to keep its cross-examination as short as possible, and that is why

25     I'm going to ask (redacted) to answer my questions and I'm not going to

Page 14158

 1     put more questions to him then essential.  I apologise, I said the name.

 2     I should have used the pseudonym.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have a redaction made, Mr. Popovic, yes.

 4             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Popovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. K87, I'm Alexander Popovic, and I'm in

 7     Mr. Djordjevic's Defence team.  I would like to put some questions to

 8     you.  First of all, I would like to ask you this, we speak the same

 9     language so I would like you to listen to my question first and then a

10     little bit after that give your answer so that we can help the

11     interpreters to do their job properly.

12             Sir, Mr. K87, I'm interested in the following, this is a part of

13     your statement that you gave to the Prosecution, paragraph 15, where you

14     refer to a meeting, and you say, The meeting with Djordjevic was very

15     brief and nobody else attended except for us, he told me that this is

16     something that should not be talked about and that we should wait for the

17     war to finish.  Witness, I'm going to ask you to pay attention to this

18     conversation you had with Mr. Djordjevic.  First of all, are you thinking

19     of the first conversation that you had with Mr. Djordjevic here?

20        A.   Yes, the first conversation that I had with him.

21        Q.   Can you please tell me where the conversation took place?

22        A.   It -- can I answer now?

23        Q.   Yes, yes, go ahead, please do.

24        A.   The NATO bombing was underway, the NATO bombing of Serbia, so all

25     the important facilities were relocated.  The MUP was in the

Page 14159

 1     Komercijalna Banka or invest -- or Belgrade Bank.  I don't know which one

 2     of those banks it was located in.  But in any case, it was relocated.

 3        Q.   When you say the MUP was located somewhere, do you know who was

 4     where in that period?  Who was in which location?

 5        A.   As far as I know, the MUP leadership was transferred there.

 6     Relocated, not transferred actually.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8        A.   You are welcome.

 9        Q.   When you turned up for this meeting, this conversation, what did

10     the room look like from what you can recall where you had this

11     conversation with Mr. Djordjevic?

12        A.   Well, it was just a regular office.  Just a regular clerk's

13     office.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And when the conversation began, can you tell me how

15     it proceeded, what was it like.  Briefly can you tell us what you

16     remember of this conversation.

17        A.   Well, it's been a long time since that meeting.  I really do not

18     remember all the details, but I can just tell you approximately how the

19     meeting proceeded.  I was summoned to the meeting.  I went inside.  I

20     found Mr. Djordjevic inside who at that time was walking around the

21     office and he was speaking on the telephone with somebody.  When he

22     finished his conversation, he spoke to me.  And that's what it looked

23     like more or less.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could we be a little bit more precise now.  I'm going

25     to put questions to you now that have to do with that conversation.  When

Page 14160

 1     you say he was walking around the office, can you please tell me what was

 2     your impression?  What was his physical and mental state at the time?

 3     Can you remember that?

 4        A.   At the time I had the impression that he was irritable, nervous,

 5     and thoughtful, this is the impression that I had.  Perhaps I'm not

 6     correct, but that was the impression that I had, that he was thinking and

 7     that he was nervous.

 8        Q.   And when he addressed you, do you remember what he told you?  How

 9     did he explain to you what you were supposed to do?  Can you be a little

10     bit more precise about that, please.

11        A.   Of course.  The General told me that there is a task that had to

12     be completed, that it was our duty to do that.  Then he told me what it

13     was and that this was a job that had to be completed.  These people had

14     to be buried.  They came from the NATO bombing and that at that point in

15     time it was not desirable to talk about it, that it was necessary to wait

16     until the end of the war to be able to then do the identification of the

17     individuals and bury them individually and that it was important

18     throughout the time that this was being done there should be some kind of

19     marking so that there was a trail indicating what was done and where it

20     was done.

21        Q.   K87, sir, when you were told that there should be some kind of

22     trail or marking left, did you actually act upon that?  Did you fulfill

23     that condition?

24        A.   Yes, of course we did.  What Mr. Djordjevic told me was that

25     there was some kind of instruction that this had to be marked and

Page 14161

 1     preserved that -- so that there is a record of where we left what we

 2     left, so that's what we did.  We left a trailer truck there, that was the

 3     most convenient thing to do.

 4        Q.   Where did you leave this trailer truck?

 5        A.   Well, it was left and for the sole purpose of marking the place

 6     so that when the time came to bury the corpses -- rebury the corpses, we

 7     would know exactly where they were.

 8        Q.   All right.  So this was the assignment given to you by

 9     Mr. Djordjevic?

10        A.   Yes.  I was the only one who was in contact with Mr. Djordjevic.

11     My only contact was with him, so it was natural that this then had come

12     from him.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And when you talked with Mr. Djordjevic about this

14     assignment, I don't mean about marking the place, but generally this

15     assignment that you were given, how did he -- how did you understand

16     that?  Was that his direct order or was he conveying somebody else's

17     order to you?

18        A.   The General was speaking in the plural.  Now, what does that

19     mean, speaking in the plural?  We should carry out this task.  So on the

20     basis of that if I'm supposed to draw a conclusion, the only one I can

21     draw is that someone had told him that, had said that.  That's to say

22     that I had the impression -- I mean, I repeat, if he was speaking, he was

23     speak in the plural, and then I feel that he was conveying someone's

24     order.

25        Q.   Did he mention anyone during that conversation as someone who

Page 14162

 1     could have issued that order?  Did you draw any conclusion in that

 2     regard?

 3        A.   Well, the General never mentioned anybody's name or surname, that

 4     this was being done on someone's instructions.  However, at one moment,

 5     now was it then or, I don't know, the time after that when we saw each

 6     other, he mentioned someone who he probably knew; I didn't.  He mentioned

 7     a nickname, he said the boss, the boss.  So I don't know.  I could not

 8     say anything more than that.  I cannot say who he meant.

 9        Q.   (redacted), at that point --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have a further redaction.

11             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

12        Q.   Witness, do you know at that moment who was the immediate

13     superior of Mr. Djordjevic or, rather, who his boss was?

14        A.   It was only the minister who could have been the General's boss.

15     No one else in the ministry could have been his boss then.  He was the

16     number two man in the ministry.

17        Q.   (redacted), I'm going to ask you now for yet another

18     clarification.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I made a mistake yet

20     again.  Again I mentioned the witness's name.  Line 19, so could a

21     redaction be made again.

22        Q.   Witness K87, I would like to ask you to have a look at

23     paragraph 25 of your statement.  In that statement you speak about your

24     second meeting with Mr. Djordjevic and you say:

25             "At one moment I talked to Djordjevic in his office and I asked

Page 14163

 1     him whether it was possible to stop the bringing of bodies to the

 2     centre."

 3             Witness, my question has to do with this second meeting.  Could

 4     you explain in a bit more detail, if you remember, of course, how that

 5     conversation evolved?  Where it took place, and also could you tell us

 6     more specifically what it was that you talked about.

 7        A.   The essence of the conversation is what I put here in the

 8     statement.  Now, I will try, of course, to remember some details as well

 9     to the best of my ability now, as much as I can remember.  As for this

10     event that had taken place, we talked about it at the same place where I

11     was summoned to have my first meeting with Mr. Djordjevic.  And, of

12     course, I asked Mr. Djordjevic if it was possible not to have these

13     bodies brought in again to Batajnica.  And, of course, Mr. Djordjevic did

14     show his understanding in view of my proposal.  He said, of course, he

15     would have to look into the matter with someone.  And generally speaking,

16     as far as he was concerned, his reaction was favourable in relation to my

17     proposal and my idea.  His reaction was a favourable one, and it was my

18     understanding that it was a gesture of his goodwill to be accommodating

19     and that he approved what I said.  And after that, of course, bodies were

20     no longer brought to the centre in Batajnica.  And that is what I can

21     remember now.

22        Q.   Thank you, witness.  During your conversation with Mr. Djordjevic

23     -- or actually, let's put it this way:  In relation to what you told us

24     just now, I would like to hear about your impression.  When you talked to

25     Mr. Djordjevic about putting a stop to the bringing of bodies to

Page 14164

 1     Batajnica, what psychological and physical condition was he in?  What was

 2     his attitude towards all of that?

 3        A.   I think, well, this is going to require an effort on my part.  I

 4     will have to concentrate.  I will have to analyse the General.  And on a

 5     personal level, I really don't know him, so it would be hard for me to

 6     assess our official communication in that way.  However, my impression

 7     was that everything that was being done was being done against his will.

 8     And the impression I had was, Let us hope that this will finally be

 9     brought to an end.  I'm not saying this in any negative sense.  Like,

10     sort of, Let's get rid of this problem, let's take care of this.  That

11     was the impression I had during this conversation when I asked him to

12     make an effort to put a stop to having those bodies brought into our

13     centre.

14        Q.   Tell me, during the conversations you had with him, did he ever

15     tell you where these bodies originated from, the ones that were supposed

16     to be buried within the Batajnica compound?

17        A.   This is what I was told:  I think that in the statement that I

18     gave I did say at one point that they were victims of NATO bombing.  I

19     didn't know these people.  I was not told at any point in time that they

20     were Serbs or Albanians or gypsies or whatever.  Now, I think that that

21     is how the conversation evolved, and our conversations did not involve a

22     great many detail.  And I was not in a position to put some kind of

23     questions to the General or whatever.  I assumed that everybody

24     understands that, what my position was.  I mean, what it's like when you

25     talk to such a high-ranking MUP official, as General Djordjevic was at

Page 14165

 1     the time.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  When he said to you that it was a state secret, as

 3     you said in your statement --

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell me what your understanding was of that.  At

 6     that moment, I mean.

 7        A.   Well, like any normal person, there was a state of war in Serbia

 8     then.  There was marshall law, and it was my understanding that it was

 9     only natural that something could be declared a secret, and it was my

10     understanding, the explanation I received was that this would be the

11     situation only until the NATO bombing was still on, and while the war was

12     still on.  Afterwards, the corpses would be taken care of.  However,

13     during that state of war, while these laws are in force, it was my

14     understanding that it was a state secret then.  It wasn't a state secret

15     to conceal the event as such.

16        Q.   At that moment was that quite normal and acceptable to you?

17        A.   For anyone it would have been normal then.  Why would I be any

18     exception to that?  That's the situation that we were in then.  That was

19     the state that we were in.

20        Q.   Thank you, witness, K87.

21             The next thing I would like to ask you about is document P413.

22     That is entitled "Official Note," and the date is the 22nd of June, 2001.

23     At the end of this document it says the note was compiled by the

24     Working Group.  Witness K87, my question, first of all, is whether you

25     made a statement on the 22nd of June, 2001, and if so, to whom.

Page 14166

 1        A.   Well, I don't know the exact date.  I cannot say specifically

 2     whether it was on the 21st or whatever the date was.  I then had an

 3     informal exchange of views or exchange of information, conversation with

 4     a man who was in charge of talking to me then, and that was

 5     Mr. Dragan Karleusa.  We talked in the MUP, on MUP premises.  Before that

 6     we had a telephone contact at my insistence.  I came to his office, and

 7     we talked about the event that had occurred.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             Witness K87, was any kind of statement compiled then and did you

10     sign any statement then?

11        A.   No, no statement was made.  No one was taking notes.  I didn't

12     sign anything, no.

13        Q.   If you look at this exhibit which is before you, I assume, tell

14     me, when did you first see this Official Note?

15        A.   Well, when I was preparing -- when I first testified.  I mean in

16     the Milutinovic case, I think it was then.

17        Q.   Can you remember the year?

18        A.   2007, I think.  Or 2008.  I don't know exactly when I was there.

19     I mean, I have been trying to clear my mind of all of these things that

20     had happened, so I really don't know which year I came to testify in the

21     Milutinovic case, was it 2007, was it 2008.

22        Q.   The 22nd of June, 2001.  And then from then up until that year,

23     2007 or 2008, you never saw this Official Note; right?

24        A.   I did not.  I think it was then when I was preparing for my

25     testimony that I first saw that.

Page 14167

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps it's a bit superfluous, but I have to ask you

 2     whether before that you ever had occasion to read this Official Note?

 3        A.   No, no.  No one ever presented it to me and no one ever gave it

 4     to me to read, anything like that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Witness K87, while you were preparing to testify in

 6     the Milutinovic case and while you were preparing to testify today, did

 7     you have an opportunity to read this?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   A bit later I'm going to deal with a large part of this

10     statement, but this is what I'm primarily interested in.  Since you had

11     the opportunity of reading it, and I suppose that you know what it was

12     that you discussed with Mr. Karleusa, does this statement depict the

13     subject of your conversation with Mr. Karleusa?

14        A.   I have already expressed my views in relation to this statement.

15     During my proofing for the first testimony, I said that, and I stand by

16     that to this day.  It is written in a very nice way, in a literary

17     fashion.  If I'm supposed to interpret it freely now, I will, but I stand

18     by each and every word I stated then as my view regarding this

19     Official Note.  If you have that with you there, you can read it out, and

20     I will confirm that for you.  If not, I'm going to provide a free

21     interpretation of it now.  It was written up very nicely in literary

22     fashion in order to leave the impression of a well-educated person,

23     eloquent.

24        Q.   Witness, I'm going to read that to you now, what you mentioned to

25     us.  First of all, what we received from our colleagues from the OTP is a

Page 14168

 1     document containing supplemental information concerning the meeting with

 2     you on the 10th of May, 2010, and it says there:

 3             "K87 repeats that the statement given to the Working Group of the

 4     MUP is not correct.  Ninety per cent of it is not correct and that the

 5     document is an interpretation provided by Mr. Karleusa."

 6             Do you agree with that?

 7        A.   Fully.

 8        Q.   Now I'm going to read out to you what you said when you testified

 9     in the Milutinovic case in respect of the same matter.  It was on the

10     15th of March, 2007.  The witness stated that this document was

11     Karleusa's interpretation of an informal conversation that he had with

12     him.  He stated that there were obvious inaccuracies in the document that

13     he had not signed.  In this regard, he does not stand by anything that is

14     stated in that document.  Not even by the allegations that may be correct

15     because the document does not fully reflect what it was that he said at

16     that meeting.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have this

18     document.

19             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you agree with all of this, witness?

21        A.   Fully.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Nevertheless, I will have to mention some of the

23     allegations made in the Official Note that had been compiled, and that in

24     a way became an exhibit in this case.  On page 1, the following is

25     stated:

Page 14169

 1             "Then I telephoned General Vlastimir Djordjevic and I asked him

 2     about the specific truck that no one had known anything about.  After

 3     that, the General phoned me on my mobile phone."

 4             Does that correspond to the truth and what you said to

 5     Mr. Karleusa?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  On page 2, paragraph 1:

 8             "General Vlastimir Djordjevic told me that the Kosovo terrain was

 9     being cleared and that this should be concealed with us, that this was a

10     secret and that this is some report back to Mr. Milosevic about that."

11             Did you ever discuss anything to that effect with Mr. Karleusa?

12        A.   No, absolutely not.  I did speak with Mr. Karleusa, but this does

13     not reflect the truth.  Something like this, no.

14        Q.   Thank you.  There is a sentence in the same paragraph:

15             "When I receive the order from General Djordjevic, I informed my

16     superiors Simovic and Trajkovic about this who happened to be in Kosovo

17     at the time."

18             Does this correspond to the truth as to what you spoke about?

19        A.   No, this does not correspond to the truth of what we talked

20     about.

21        Q.   Thank you.  On the same page, paragraph number 5:

22             "After that the job became a routine one.  Lipovac would inform

23     me by telephone usually saying, It's arriving tonight."

24             Does this correspond to what was said in this informal

25     conversation?

Page 14170

 1        A.   No, no.

 2        Q.   There are a few other allegations here.  First of all you say:

 3             "I personally never waited for any truck when it came with the

 4     corpses.  And after the first batch, I would usually inform Lipovac

 5     personally about the assignment."

 6             Does this correspond to the truth?

 7        A.   I didn't manage to find that.  I am sorry.

 8        Q.   This is page 2, last sentence in the one paragraph but last:

 9             "I personally did not wait for any truck that would arrive with

10     the bodies.  And after the first batch, I would personally inform Lipovac

11     about the completion of the assignment."

12        A.   This is absolutely untrue.  50/50.  I never did wait for any

13     truck, yes, that is true.  But it's absolutely untrue that I informed

14     about the assignment this person whose name you mentioned.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What I'm particularly interested in and even though

16     you explained that and you said that this wasn't true, I'm still going to

17     put questions to you about that.  Did General Vlastimir Djordjevic

18     mention the clearing of terrain in Kosovo to you at any time, and did you

19     ever mention that in your conversation with Mr. Karleusa?

20        A.   No, no.  The General never mentioned that to me, anything like

21     that.  No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  One more thing, the need to inform

23     President Milosevic, did Mr. Djordjevic in his conversation with you ever

24     refer to President Milosevic, and did you ever refer to him in your

25     conversation with Mr. Karleusa?

Page 14171

 1        A.   No, the General never mentioned anybody's last name.  Absolutely

 2     not Milosevic's.  And I never said anything like that to Mr. Karleusa.

 3     I'm stating this emphatically.  Never.

 4        Q.   Thank you, I'm going to ask you for one more clarification.  I'm

 5     going to quote to you from the last paragraph on page 3 of your

 6     statement, where it is said:

 7             "My commanders Simovic and Trajkovic I took to the location where

 8     the bodies were buried and showed it to them so that they would know in

 9     the event of possible future plans about any works that might be carried

10     out on this location."

11             Did you say anything to this effect to Mr. Karleusa, and did you

12     take Simovic and Trajkovic to this location?

13        A.   I never said anything like this.  And I did not take either of my

14     commanders, Mr. Simovic or Mr. Trajkovic to any location.  And this is

15     the truth.

16        Q.   After all of your answers I still need to ask you this, witness,

17     K87:  Can you assume or do you know when you look at this Official Note

18     and everything that is written there, how do you explain all the facts

19     that are mentioned there if you say that that is something that you never

20     said?

21        A.   I never paid any particular attention to this statement.  I never

22     really carefully analysed it in the way that we have just done at your

23     prompting.  We analysed it and went detail by detail through it, and the

24     impression that I get, it doesn't have to be the correct impression, is

25     that it is full of untruths, that it is quite pretentious, and that there

Page 14172

 1     are indications that certain things are being ascribed to the General.

 2     This is something that one can conclude.  I am, I repeat, analysing it

 3     like this in more detail for the first time.  And this Official Note, it

 4     is something that leads me, personally, to that conclusion.

 5             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, (redacted).

 6             Thank you, Your Honours, I don't have any further questions for

 7     this witness.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Popovic.

 9             Mr. Behar, is it convenient to continue now?

10             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, I think so, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Behar:

13        Q.   Sir, I just have a few questions for you arising out of the

14     answers that you've just given.  Sir, you testified that in your first

15     meeting with Mr. Djordjevic, he was speaking in the plural, and you said

16     - and this was at page 12 of the transcript for my friend -  you said

17     that he referred to someone as "the boss," and then you said "I cannot

18     say who he meant."  And you were asked then to speculate about who his

19     boss could have been, and you said "the minister."  That was your

20     speculation.

21             Sir, I want to ask you, was anyone else Mr. Djordjevic's boss at

22     that time?  Was there anyone else who was senior to him?

23        A.   At the ministry only the minister.  Mr. Djordjevic was a ministry

24     man.

25        Q.   Let's just focus on my question, sir --

Page 14173

 1        A.   The number two man in the ministry.

 2        Q.   I'm just asking you, sir, was anyone else in the entire chain of

 3     command, not just within the ministry, was anyone else senior to

 4     Mr. Djordjevic?

 5        A.   Only the minister.

 6        Q.   What about Mr. Milosevic, sir, was he senior to Mr. Djordjevic?

 7        A.   As far as I know, Mr. Milosevic did not command the police.  He

 8     was in command of the army.  He was the Commander-in-Chief.  The

 9     president of a state is the supreme commander of the army.  The police is

10     under the command of the minister.  This is what I know, what we have

11     been taught in schools, that this is so.

12        Q.   I understand, sir, but if you can just focus on my question.  For

13     now I'm just asking you was Mr. Milosevic senior to Mr. Djordjevic?  It's

14     a very straightforward question.

15        A.   I think not, no.

16        Q.   So you are saying that Mr. Milosevic was not senior to

17     Mr. Djordjevic, he was not capable of giving him an order?

18        A.   I think that he would not be able to do that to him.

19        Q.   Can you explain that, sir?  Can you explain why not, why you have

20     that view now?

21        A.   I always thought that the communication is normal, that the

22     president of the state, it doesn't matter who it is, Milosevic or

23     Jankovic, the president of the state would communicate with the minister.

24     He wouldn't communicate with the number two or the number three man in

25     the ministry, but with the number one person, and that is the minister.

Page 14174

 1     And that is how it works everywhere in the world.  So I really wouldn't

 2     know about the details whether Milosevic could issue an order to

 3     Djordjevic out of the usual procedure.  That is something that I'm not

 4     aware of.  But I'm telling you what I know from books, what I have been

 5     taught, and what I'm obliged to know of the hierarchy of the state that I

 6     live in.

 7        Q.   To your knowledge, sir, was Mr. Milosevic senior to

 8     Minister Milutinovic?

 9        A.   I am sorry, I don't know.  At the time Mr. Milutinovic was

10     minister of what?

11        Q.   Well, sir, maybe I'll move off of this topic for a moment.  Sir,

12     you were asked about how you knew that a new truck with bodies would be

13     arriving at the centre, and you -- this was when you were going through

14     the statement, the Working Group statement, and you denied that

15     Mr. Lipovac would call you.  Do you remember saying that, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I did say that Mr. Lipovac did not call me.

17        Q.   Sir, can you tell us how did you learn that a new truck would be

18     arriving at the centre?  So if there was a new truck that was coming or

19     that had arrived, how would you be informed about that?

20        A.   Like I said in the statement that I gave to the investigators,

21     Mr. Djordjevic would inform me about the arrival of the truck.

22        Q.   And so would this also be the case when additional trucks were

23     arriving, sir?  In other words, after the first truck had arrived?

24        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  This happened on three or four more occasions

25     that we communicated.

Page 14175

 1        Q.   And can you explain how he would inform you or how you would

 2     learn that this -- that a new truck was arriving?

 3        A.   Who?  Do you mean he -- I don't understand -- the question is not

 4     clear to me.

 5        Q.   I just wanted some additional explanation, sir.  You said that

 6     Mr. Djordjevic would inform you about the arrival of the truck.  I'm

 7     just --

 8        A.   Please go ahead.  Please.

 9        Q.   I'm just asking if you can explain how he would inform you.

10        A.   By telephone.

11        Q.   And can you tell us when he would call in relation to the truck?

12     Was it before when it was -- was it -- sorry, I'll start again.  Was it

13     before the truck had arrived, would he tell you it was coming?  Was it

14     after?

15        A.   The first time it was after it arrived.  And the other times I

16     think it was before it arrived.  I don't know exactly.  I really cannot

17     say now.  But I know that the first time it was once the truck had

18     arrived.

19        Q.   I understand, sir.  Can you explain, sir, what Mr. Lipovac's role

20     was?

21        A.   What I know is this:  Mr. Lipovac had a logistical technical

22     role.  On a couple of occasions he brought fuel which was poured into the

23     trucks and then they were driven off to a direction or destination

24     unknown to me.

25        Q.   And you say he brought fuel.  Can you just explain to us, to the

Page 14176

 1     Court, where he brought the fuel to.

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't know where he loaded the fuel.  I know

 3     that he would bring it to the centre in Batajnica.  The trucks were

 4     refueled there and then they were taken somewhere.  I don't know where.

 5     That was his assignment or his task as far as I know.

 6        Q.   I think that answers the question, sir.  Thank you.

 7             And, sir, do you know what Mr. Lipovac's job was?

 8        A.   You are welcome.

 9        Q.   What his professional role was within the ministry?  I am more

10     looking for his --

11        A.   I don't think that he had any -- I don't know what his

12     professional role was, his title.  I know that he was performing the

13     duties of Mr. Djordjevic's driver.  I know him as somebody who did those

14     jobs.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, just to very briefly revisit some question

16     I'd asked you earlier.  I made a mistake and referred to

17     Minister Milutinovic.  Of course, I meant to refer to

18     Minister Stojiljkovic.  And maybe I'll just put the question to you

19     again.  I'd asked first the simple question, was Mr. Milosevic senior to

20     Minister Stojiljkovic?  Can you answer that for us, sir.

21        A.   Yes, by his position, of course he was, yes.

22        Q.   So then, sir, was Mr. Milosevic also senior to Mr. Djordjevic in

23     your knowledge?

24        A.   Yes, by nature of his post, of course, yes.

25        Q.   So -- and I know you've speculated on this, sir, but when

Page 14177

 1     Mr. Djordjevic was referring to his boss, could that have been

 2     Mr. Milosevic, sir?  Or to the boss, I should say, could that have been

 3     Mr. Milosevic?

 4        A.   You are expecting me to give you my opinion or to interpret that

 5     freely.  Could you please clarify your question so that we can stay in a

 6     proper professional conversation until the end so that I would be able to

 7     say how it was.  Please.

 8        Q.   I think my question is clear, sir.  You had offered earlier your

 9     speculation that that may have been the minister that Mr. Djordjevic was

10     referring to, and I'm asking you when he used the term "the boss," to

11     your knowledge could that have referred to Mr. Milosevic?

12        A.   I personally think not because a high-ranking police official, I

13     believe, could not afford himself such a luxury to call the president of

14     the republic as boss.  I don't think that somebody would do that.  That

15     is my personal opinion, that they would not refer to the president of the

16     state as the boss.

17             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, sir.  Those are my questions for you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Behar.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE PARKER:  You will be pleased to know, witness, that that

22     concludes the questions for you.  The Chamber would thank you for your

23     attendance in Belgrade to deal with these questions, and indicates that

24     you are now free to go about your ordinary activities.  Your evidence to

25     us has reached an end.  So we will thank you, and we will close the

Page 14178

 1     videolink for today.  It will be resumed tomorrow for another reason.

 2             So thank you very much, sir.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I would like to wish

 4     everybody a lot of luck and good health, and good-bye to everybody.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 6             That concludes the evidence of this witness.  If we could close

 7     the videolink or the screen here.

 8                           [Witness withdrew via videolink]

 9             Now, we have finished very early, much earlier than expected, the

10     evidence of this witness today.  Our next witness is programmed to be

11     heard tomorrow at 9.00.  Before we adjourn for the day, there are some

12     housekeeping matters that I need to deal with.

13             On the 10th of May, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and the

14     Defence that it had received a formal English translation of the document

15     that was marked for identification as P1526.  That being so, the

16     Prosecution will have leave to upload that translation, and that having

17     been done, the document will become Exhibit P1526 with the English

18     translation attached to it.

19             Next, on the 11th of May, the Defence notified the Chamber and

20     the Prosecution that it had received English translations of four

21     documents that had been marked for identification as D901, D903, D907,

22     and D908.  Those translations may now be uploaded in e-court, and the

23     documents marked for identification with the numbers that I've indicated

24     will now become exhibits with those same numbers.

25             The Chamber has also noted that several transcripts have been

Page 14179

 1     admitted in this case pursuant to Rule 92 ter, but when they are checked,

 2     the transcripts are not corrected transcripts.  They may not contain

 3     post-session redactions and other corrections.  These are presently

 4     Exhibits P428, P495, P979, P1321 and P1416.  They are in each case

 5     Prosecution exhibits.  Accordingly, the Chamber would ask that the

 6     transcripts that are in these exhibits be checked and final transcripts

 7     that include any corrections and redactions that may have been given in

 8     closed or private session should be incorporated.  And with those final

 9     transcripts incorporated, the exhibits will continue to have the same

10     exhibit number.  So that's a homework job for the Prosecution with

11     respect to five of the existing exhibits.  We don't have corrected and

12     final transcripts.

13             There's a further matter the Chamber would mention as a practical

14     measure at this time when both parties will be reviewing evidence as they

15     prepare their final submissions.  There are many cases in the course of

16     this trial over the last year and three or four months where out of

17     caution the Chamber has heard certain evidence in closed session or in

18     private session when by the end of that questioning it's been clear that

19     there's been no need for the evidence to have been received in private or

20     closed session.  It was done out of caution, whether it was a Prosecution

21     or Defence witness, just to be sure that there was no reference to some

22     matter that should not have been publicly referred to.

23             The Chamber proposes before it concludes this case to remove the

24     orders for private or closed session that are unnecessary, as it were, to

25     free up the transcript as much as possible for public record, and to free

Page 14180

 1     it up for the purposes of reference to the transcript for purposes of

 2     submissions and judgement.  We would ask both Prosecution and Defence if,

 3     as they are reviewing the transcript, they notice there are passages that

 4     are for no good reason the subject of an order for closed or private

 5     session, that they bring this to the attention of the Chamber's Legal

 6     Officer so that it can be included in a general order that relaxes any

 7     unnecessary orders for private and closed session.

 8             Is there any other matter that needs attention at this stage,

 9     Mr. Behar?

10             MR. BEHAR:  I don't believe so, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Popovic?

13             MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Thank you, that

14     would be it.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  I see your learned leader behind was getting ready

16     to answer that.  He acknowledges the reliability of what you have said.

17             We will in the circumstances then adjourn for the day with a view

18     to resuming tomorrow at 9.00.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.21 a.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of May,

21                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.