1 Monday, 17 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to everybody. This morning we sit to
6 hear by videolink the balance of evidence of a witness. There are
7 various witness protections in place so that the witness is to be heard
8 under a pseudonym and with voice and face distortion among other matters.
9 I will speak to the Court Officer in Belgrade. The witness is ready now,
10 is he?
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours, that's
12 correct, the witness is in the waiting room, and he is ready to testify.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I am, sorry, we were not able to hear you then.
14 Could you repeat what you were saying.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, good morning, Your Honours,
16 the witness is ready to testify, and he is in the waiting room. And I'm
17 ready it to bring him upon your direction.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Would you mind repeating that again, we are having
19 trouble getting the right sound balance.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours, I hope
21 I'm getting through loud and clear now.
22 JUDGE PARKER: And again.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] good morning, Your Honours, I hope
24 I'm getting through loud and clear now.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, that's coming better now.
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 And the witness is ready to testify. He is in the waiting room,
3 and I can escort him in once Your Honours so direct me.
4 JUDGE PARKER: If you could do that now. Thank you.
5 [The witness entered court via videolink]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to you, Mr. Witness. Would you
7 please read aloud the affirmation that is shown to you now.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not hearing the interpretation.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Could you read aloud the affirmation that is shown
10 to you now.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it now.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Would you read that out aloud.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down. Now, if
16 you would just pause a moment and we will speak to counsel.
17 Mr. Djurdjic.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a technical
19 problem with the interpretation for the accused. The accused is not
20 getting interpretation.
21 JUDGE PARKER: We have found you need full volume on the red for
22 the communication from Belgrade
23 the in-court. Would the interpreters please continue their
24 interpretation of what I am now saying to try and assist. And we have
25 now been introduced a hum from some further microphone, which has been
1 introduced into the circuit just to add to the technical difficulties.
2 We appear now to have sound in the courtroom in B/C/S, but we do have
3 that additional hum that has been introduced during that exercise.
4 Well, we will proceed now.
5 Now, Mr. Behar, are there any problems with you at the moment?
6 MR. BEHAR: Not thus far, Your Honour. I was, I thought, having
7 some difficulty receiving the interpretation on the red channel, but I'm
8 hoping it will be fine, and I'll certainly let you know if I have any
9 problems going forward.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, witness, thank you for that. We
11 are getting the technicalities adjusted so that we can be sure to both
12 hear and see you and receive interpretation. We think those matters are
13 now corrected and what the Chamber will do is first of all ask Mr. Behar
14 if he has any additional questions for you. And we'll do that now.
15 Mr. Behar.
16 MR. BEHAR: Yes, Your Honours, I thought I would address the
17 Chamber very briefly just to set out what I plan to do in brief this
18 morning. I had proposed to first have the witness confirm his identity,
19 then read in a brief witness summary as we normally do with 92 ter
20 witnesses. And I do propose just to have a couple of very brief
21 questions, and I do understand that the purpose of this is really
22 primarily for cross-examination.
23 JUDGE PARKER: That is correct, Mr. Behar. As you will recall,
24 when the witness was unable to attend much earlier in the trial, the
25 Chamber received the statement of the witness that he is now available
1 primarily for cross-examination. Therefore, if you could proceed as you
2 propose quickly, we can move to cross-examination very shortly.
3 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
4 WITNESS: K87
5 [Witness testified via videolink]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examination by Mr. Behar:
8 Q. Good morning, sir.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I wanted to begin by having you look briefly at a document that
11 contains some personal information related to you. If you could look at
12 P1417. I believe it should be the last tab in the materials that you
13 have there. Have you found that material, sir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. If you could just read that quietly to yourself.
16 Sir, is the information on that document, your name and your date and
17 place of birth correct?
18 A. Yes, they are correct.
19 Q. Thank you, sir.
20 MR. BEHAR: I would note that that has already been made a sealed
22 Q. And just a reminder now, sir, I will be referring to you as K87
23 today in order to protect your identity. We are also making use of image
24 and voice distortion. Sir, I can indicate to you and to the Chamber that
25 there are several materials relating to your evidence that are already
1 admitted in evidence, and this was pursuant to this Chamber's order of
2 the 28th of October of 2009. There's your witness statement through this
3 Tribunal, that's P1414. There's a redacted version of your witness
4 statement, that's P1415. There's a transcript of your testimony from the
5 Milutinovic case, that's P1416. There's the pseudonym sheet that you
6 just referred to, that's P1417. And there's also a supplemental
7 information sheet for changes that you had provided or new things you had
8 said to the Prosecution when you testified in Milutinovic case, and
9 that's D392.
10 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would now proceed to read a brief
11 summary of the witness's evidence.
12 K87 is a Serb who was employed as a MUP officer during the time
13 in question. In 1996, he was assigned to the SAJ and based in Batajnica
14 near Belgrade
15 and layout of the 13 Maj training centre, noting that the SAJ left the
16 13 Maj centre for a period of time after the war started.
17 The witness explains that he received a telephone call from
18 Vlastimir Djordjevic sometime around mid-April of 1999. Mr. Djordjevic
19 directed him to go to his office the following morning, where the two of
20 them met alone. Mr. Djordjevic directed him to facilitate the burial of
21 a large number of human bodies that were contained in trucks that had
22 been driven to the 13 Maj centre. Mr. Djordjevic gave him specific
23 directions as to where and how to bury the bodies. The witness and
24 another MUP officer participated in burying the bodies, as directed by
25 Mr. Djordjevic.
1 Mr. Djordjevic contacted the witness on several more occasions,
2 and the witness facilitated the burial of more bodies. He was contacted
3 by telephone by another person after these burials, who asked him to
4 confirm that the bodies were buried. The witness later advised the
5 commander of the SAJ
6 That is the end of the summary.
7 Q. Sir, I just wanted to ask you a couple of very brief questions
8 and then counsel for Mr. Djordjevic will have certainly many more
9 questions for you. Sir, were you familiar with Radovan Aleksic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you attend his funeral?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was Mr. Trajkovic at that funeral as well?
14 A. He was, yes.
15 Q. And did you speak to him, to Mr. Trajkovic at the funeral?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sir, do you recall how long after Mr. Aleksic's death that
18 funeral took place?
19 A. Whose death? Whose funeral? The question is not clear to me.
20 Q. Sure. I'm just trying to get a sense, sir, if you remember when
21 that funeral was?
22 A. You are asking me if I know the date when Mr. Aleksic was buried,
23 is that your question?
24 Q. That's correct. What date was that funeral, if you recall?
25 A. I don't remember, no.
1 Q. Do you recall how long after Mr. Aleksic's death the funeral took
2 place? Was there a long delay between the time when he died and when the
3 funeral took place, or was it relatively fast?
4 A. Not too much time passed, but I'm not sure. What does that mean,
5 was he buried quickly? I don't know. Do you mean was the funeral itself
6 quick? I don't know. The questions are put in such a way that I don't
7 really understand them all that well. Does that mean -- what does it
8 mean, was the burial or the funeral held quickly?
9 Q. I was just trying to get a sense, sir, of how long after the
10 death of Mr. Aleksic his funeral took place. I think you've answered
11 that already. You've said not too much time passed. Does that sound
12 correct, sir? Do you understand what I'm asking now?
13 A. Yes. Yes, I understand. And I think that, yes, not too much
14 time passed. I don't know exactly how much time, but not a lot, no.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir, those are my questions for you at this
17 A. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Behar.
19 Now, the Chamber will ask Mr. Popovic who represents the accused
20 man Mr. Djordjevic, if he has some questions for you.
21 Mr. Popovic.
22 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
23 Defence -- in view of the health of the witness, the Defence will do its
24 best to keep its cross-examination as short as possible, and that is why
25 I'm going to ask (redacted) to answer my questions and I'm not going to
1 put more questions to him then essential. I apologise, I said the name.
2 I should have used the pseudonym.
3 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a redaction made, Mr. Popovic, yes.
4 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Popovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. K87, I'm Alexander Popovic, and I'm in
7 Mr. Djordjevic's Defence team. I would like to put some questions to
8 you. First of all, I would like to ask you this, we speak the same
9 language so I would like you to listen to my question first and then a
10 little bit after that give your answer so that we can help the
11 interpreters to do their job properly.
12 Sir, Mr. K87, I'm interested in the following, this is a part of
13 your statement that you gave to the Prosecution, paragraph 15, where you
14 refer to a meeting, and you say, The meeting with Djordjevic was very
15 brief and nobody else attended except for us, he told me that this is
16 something that should not be talked about and that we should wait for the
17 war to finish. Witness, I'm going to ask you to pay attention to this
18 conversation you had with Mr. Djordjevic. First of all, are you thinking
19 of the first conversation that you had with Mr. Djordjevic here?
20 A. Yes, the first conversation that I had with him.
21 Q. Can you please tell me where the conversation took place?
22 A. It -- can I answer now?
23 Q. Yes, yes, go ahead, please do.
24 A. The NATO bombing was underway, the NATO bombing of Serbia, so all
25 the important facilities were relocated. The MUP was in the
1 Komercijalna Banka or invest -- or Belgrade Bank. I don't know which one
2 of those banks it was located in. But in any case, it was relocated.
3 Q. When you say the MUP was located somewhere, do you know who was
4 where in that period? Who was in which location?
5 A. As far as I know, the MUP leadership was transferred there.
6 Relocated, not transferred actually.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. You are welcome.
9 Q. When you turned up for this meeting, this conversation, what did
10 the room look like from what you can recall where you had this
11 conversation with Mr. Djordjevic?
12 A. Well, it was just a regular office. Just a regular clerk's
14 Q. Thank you. And when the conversation began, can you tell me how
15 it proceeded, what was it like. Briefly can you tell us what you
16 remember of this conversation.
17 A. Well, it's been a long time since that meeting. I really do not
18 remember all the details, but I can just tell you approximately how the
19 meeting proceeded. I was summoned to the meeting. I went inside. I
20 found Mr. Djordjevic inside who at that time was walking around the
21 office and he was speaking on the telephone with somebody. When he
22 finished his conversation, he spoke to me. And that's what it looked
23 like more or less.
24 Q. Thank you. Could we be a little bit more precise now. I'm going
25 to put questions to you now that have to do with that conversation. When
1 you say he was walking around the office, can you please tell me what was
2 your impression? What was his physical and mental state at the time?
3 Can you remember that?
4 A. At the time I had the impression that he was irritable, nervous,
5 and thoughtful, this is the impression that I had. Perhaps I'm not
6 correct, but that was the impression that I had, that he was thinking and
7 that he was nervous.
8 Q. And when he addressed you, do you remember what he told you? How
9 did he explain to you what you were supposed to do? Can you be a little
10 bit more precise about that, please.
11 A. Of course. The General told me that there is a task that had to
12 be completed, that it was our duty to do that. Then he told me what it
13 was and that this was a job that had to be completed. These people had
14 to be buried. They came from the NATO bombing and that at that point in
15 time it was not desirable to talk about it, that it was necessary to wait
16 until the end of the war to be able to then do the identification of the
17 individuals and bury them individually and that it was important
18 throughout the time that this was being done there should be some kind of
19 marking so that there was a trail indicating what was done and where it
20 was done.
21 Q. K87, sir, when you were told that there should be some kind of
22 trail or marking left, did you actually act upon that? Did you fulfill
23 that condition?
24 A. Yes, of course we did. What Mr. Djordjevic told me was that
25 there was some kind of instruction that this had to be marked and
1 preserved that -- so that there is a record of where we left what we
2 left, so that's what we did. We left a trailer truck there, that was the
3 most convenient thing to do.
4 Q. Where did you leave this trailer truck?
5 A. Well, it was left and for the sole purpose of marking the place
6 so that when the time came to bury the corpses -- rebury the corpses, we
7 would know exactly where they were.
8 Q. All right. So this was the assignment given to you by
9 Mr. Djordjevic?
10 A. Yes. I was the only one who was in contact with Mr. Djordjevic.
11 My only contact was with him, so it was natural that this then had come
12 from him.
13 Q. Thank you. And when you talked with Mr. Djordjevic about this
14 assignment, I don't mean about marking the place, but generally this
15 assignment that you were given, how did he -- how did you understand
16 that? Was that his direct order or was he conveying somebody else's
17 order to you?
18 A. The General was speaking in the plural. Now, what does that
19 mean, speaking in the plural? We should carry out this task. So on the
20 basis of that if I'm supposed to draw a conclusion, the only one I can
21 draw is that someone had told him that, had said that. That's to say
22 that I had the impression -- I mean, I repeat, if he was speaking, he was
23 speak in the plural, and then I feel that he was conveying someone's
25 Q. Did he mention anyone during that conversation as someone who
1 could have issued that order? Did you draw any conclusion in that
3 A. Well, the General never mentioned anybody's name or surname, that
4 this was being done on someone's instructions. However, at one moment,
5 now was it then or, I don't know, the time after that when we saw each
6 other, he mentioned someone who he probably knew; I didn't. He mentioned
7 a nickname, he said the boss, the boss. So I don't know. I could not
8 say anything more than that. I cannot say who he meant.
9 Q. (redacted), at that point --
10 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a further redaction.
11 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
12 Q. Witness, do you know at that moment who was the immediate
13 superior of Mr. Djordjevic or, rather, who his boss was?
14 A. It was only the minister who could have been the General's boss.
15 No one else in the ministry could have been his boss then. He was the
16 number two man in the ministry.
17 Q. (redacted), I'm going to ask you now for yet another
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I made a mistake yet
20 again. Again I mentioned the witness's name. Line 19, so could a
21 redaction be made again.
22 Q. Witness K87, I would like to ask you to have a look at
23 paragraph 25 of your statement. In that statement you speak about your
24 second meeting with Mr. Djordjevic and you say:
25 "At one moment I talked to Djordjevic in his office and I asked
1 him whether it was possible to stop the bringing of bodies to the
3 Witness, my question has to do with this second meeting. Could
4 you explain in a bit more detail, if you remember, of course, how that
5 conversation evolved? Where it took place, and also could you tell us
6 more specifically what it was that you talked about.
7 A. The essence of the conversation is what I put here in the
8 statement. Now, I will try, of course, to remember some details as well
9 to the best of my ability now, as much as I can remember. As for this
10 event that had taken place, we talked about it at the same place where I
11 was summoned to have my first meeting with Mr. Djordjevic. And, of
12 course, I asked Mr. Djordjevic if it was possible not to have these
13 bodies brought in again to Batajnica. And, of course, Mr. Djordjevic did
14 show his understanding in view of my proposal. He said, of course, he
15 would have to look into the matter with someone. And generally speaking,
16 as far as he was concerned, his reaction was favourable in relation to my
17 proposal and my idea. His reaction was a favourable one, and it was my
18 understanding that it was a gesture of his goodwill to be accommodating
19 and that he approved what I said. And after that, of course, bodies were
20 no longer brought to the centre in Batajnica. And that is what I can
21 remember now.
22 Q. Thank you, witness. During your conversation with Mr. Djordjevic
23 -- or actually, let's put it this way: In relation to what you told us
24 just now, I would like to hear about your impression. When you talked to
25 Mr. Djordjevic about putting a stop to the bringing of bodies to
1 Batajnica, what psychological and physical condition was he in? What was
2 his attitude towards all of that?
3 A. I think, well, this is going to require an effort on my part. I
4 will have to concentrate. I will have to analyse the General. And on a
5 personal level, I really don't know him, so it would be hard for me to
6 assess our official communication in that way. However, my impression
7 was that everything that was being done was being done against his will.
8 And the impression I had was, Let us hope that this will finally be
9 brought to an end. I'm not saying this in any negative sense. Like,
10 sort of, Let's get rid of this problem, let's take care of this. That
11 was the impression I had during this conversation when I asked him to
12 make an effort to put a stop to having those bodies brought into our
14 Q. Tell me, during the conversations you had with him, did he ever
15 tell you where these bodies originated from, the ones that were supposed
16 to be buried within the Batajnica compound?
17 A. This is what I was told: I think that in the statement that I
18 gave I did say at one point that they were victims of NATO bombing. I
19 didn't know these people. I was not told at any point in time that they
20 were Serbs or Albanians or gypsies or whatever. Now, I think that that
21 is how the conversation evolved, and our conversations did not involve a
22 great many detail. And I was not in a position to put some kind of
23 questions to the General or whatever. I assumed that everybody
24 understands that, what my position was. I mean, what it's like when you
25 talk to such a high-ranking MUP official, as General Djordjevic was at
1 the time.
2 Q. Thank you. When he said to you that it was a state secret, as
3 you said in your statement --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you please tell me what your understanding was of that. At
6 that moment, I mean.
7 A. Well, like any normal person, there was a state of war in Serbia
8 then. There was marshall
9 only natural that something could be declared a secret, and it was my
10 understanding, the explanation I received was that this would be the
11 situation only until the NATO bombing was still on, and while the war was
12 still on. Afterwards, the corpses would be taken care of. However,
13 during that state of war, while these laws are in force, it was my
14 understanding that it was a state secret then. It wasn't a state secret
15 to conceal the event as such.
16 Q. At that moment was that quite normal and acceptable to you?
17 A. For anyone it would have been normal then. Why would I be any
18 exception to that? That's the situation that we were in then. That was
19 the state that we were in.
20 Q. Thank you, witness, K87.
21 The next thing I would like to ask you about is document P413.
22 That is entitled "Official Note," and the date is the 22nd of June, 2001.
23 At the end of this document it says the note was compiled by the
24 Working Group. Witness K87, my question, first of all, is whether you
25 made a statement on the 22nd of June, 2001, and if so, to whom.
1 A. Well, I don't know the exact date. I cannot say specifically
2 whether it was on the 21st or whatever the date was. I then had an
3 informal exchange of views or exchange of information, conversation with
4 a man who was in charge of talking to me then, and that was
5 Mr. Dragan Karleusa. We talked in the MUP, on MUP premises. Before that
6 we had a telephone contact at my insistence. I came to his office, and
7 we talked about the event that had occurred.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Witness K87, was any kind of statement compiled then and did you
10 sign any statement then?
11 A. No, no statement was made. No one was taking notes. I didn't
12 sign anything, no.
13 Q. If you look at this exhibit which is before you, I assume, tell
14 me, when did you first see this Official Note?
15 A. Well, when I was preparing -- when I first testified. I mean in
16 the Milutinovic case, I think it was then.
17 Q. Can you remember the year?
18 A. 2007, I think. Or 2008. I don't know exactly when I was there.
19 I mean, I have been trying to clear my mind of all of these things that
20 had happened, so I really don't know which year I came to testify in the
21 Milutinovic case, was it 2007, was it 2008.
22 Q. The 22nd of June, 2001. And then from then up until that year,
23 2007 or 2008, you never saw this Official Note; right?
24 A. I did not. I think it was then when I was preparing for my
25 testimony that I first saw that.
1 Q. Thank you. Perhaps it's a bit superfluous, but I have to ask you
2 whether before that you ever had occasion to read this Official Note?
3 A. No, no. No one ever presented it to me and no one ever gave it
4 to me to read, anything like that.
5 Q. Thank you. Witness K87, while you were preparing to testify in
6 the Milutinovic case and while you were preparing to testify today, did
7 you have an opportunity to read this?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. A bit later I'm going to deal with a large part of this
10 statement, but this is what I'm primarily interested in. Since you had
11 the opportunity of reading it, and I suppose that you know what it was
12 that you discussed with Mr. Karleusa, does this statement depict the
13 subject of your conversation with Mr. Karleusa?
14 A. I have already expressed my views in relation to this statement.
15 During my proofing for the first testimony, I said that, and I stand by
16 that to this day. It is written in a very nice way, in a literary
17 fashion. If I'm supposed to interpret it freely now, I will, but I stand
18 by each and every word I stated then as my view regarding this
19 Official Note. If you have that with you there, you can read it out, and
20 I will confirm that for you. If not, I'm going to provide a free
21 interpretation of it now. It was written up very nicely in literary
22 fashion in order to leave the impression of a well-educated person,
24 Q. Witness, I'm going to read that to you now, what you mentioned to
25 us. First of all, what we received from our colleagues from the OTP is a
1 document containing supplemental information concerning the meeting with
2 you on the 10th of May, 2010, and it says there:
3 "K87 repeats that the statement given to the Working Group of the
4 MUP is not correct. Ninety per cent of it is not correct and that the
5 document is an interpretation provided by Mr. Karleusa."
6 Do you agree with that?
7 A. Fully.
8 Q. Now I'm going to read out to you what you said when you testified
9 in the Milutinovic case in respect of the same matter. It was on the
10 15th of March, 2007. The witness stated that this document was
11 Karleusa's interpretation of an informal conversation that he had with
12 him. He stated that there were obvious inaccuracies in the document that
13 he had not signed. In this regard, he does not stand by anything that is
14 stated in that document. Not even by the allegations that may be correct
15 because the document does not fully reflect what it was that he said at
16 that meeting.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have this
19 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you agree with all of this, witness?
21 A. Fully.
22 Q. Thank you. Nevertheless, I will have to mention some of the
23 allegations made in the Official Note that had been compiled, and that in
24 a way became an exhibit in this case. On page 1, the following is
1 "Then I telephoned General Vlastimir Djordjevic and I asked him
2 about the specific truck that no one had known anything about. After
3 that, the General phoned me on my mobile phone."
4 Does that correspond to the truth and what you said to
5 Mr. Karleusa?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. On page 2, paragraph 1:
8 "General Vlastimir Djordjevic told me that the Kosovo terrain was
9 being cleared and that this should be concealed with us, that this was a
10 secret and that this is some report back to Mr. Milosevic about that."
11 Did you ever discuss anything to that effect with Mr. Karleusa?
12 A. No, absolutely not. I did speak with Mr. Karleusa, but this does
13 not reflect the truth. Something like this, no.
14 Q. Thank you. There is a sentence in the same paragraph:
15 "When I receive the order from General Djordjevic, I informed my
16 superiors Simovic and Trajkovic about this who happened to be in Kosovo
17 at the time."
18 Does this correspond to the truth as to what you spoke about?
19 A. No, this does not correspond to the truth of what we talked
21 Q. Thank you. On the same page, paragraph number 5:
22 "After that the job became a routine one. Lipovac would inform
23 me by telephone usually saying, It's arriving tonight."
24 Does this correspond to what was said in this informal
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. There are a few other allegations here. First of all you say:
3 "I personally never waited for any truck when it came with the
4 corpses. And after the first batch, I would usually inform Lipovac
5 personally about the assignment."
6 Does this correspond to the truth?
7 A. I didn't manage to find that. I am sorry.
8 Q. This is page 2, last sentence in the one paragraph but last:
9 "I personally did not wait for any truck that would arrive with
10 the bodies. And after the first batch, I would personally inform Lipovac
11 about the completion of the assignment."
12 A. This is absolutely untrue. 50/50. I never did wait for any
13 truck, yes, that is true. But it's absolutely untrue that I informed
14 about the assignment this person whose name you mentioned.
15 Q. Thank you. What I'm particularly interested in and even though
16 you explained that and you said that this wasn't true, I'm still going to
17 put questions to you about that. Did General Vlastimir Djordjevic
18 mention the clearing of terrain in Kosovo to you at any time, and did you
19 ever mention that in your conversation with Mr. Karleusa?
20 A. No, no. The General never mentioned that to me, anything like
21 that. No.
22 Q. Thank you. One more thing, the need to inform
23 President Milosevic, did Mr. Djordjevic in his conversation with you ever
24 refer to President Milosevic, and did you ever refer to him in your
25 conversation with Mr. Karleusa?
1 A. No, the General never mentioned anybody's last name. Absolutely
2 not Milosevic's. And I never said anything like that to Mr. Karleusa.
3 I'm stating this emphatically. Never.
4 Q. Thank you, I'm going to ask you for one more clarification. I'm
5 going to quote to you from the last paragraph on page 3 of your
6 statement, where it is said:
7 "My commanders Simovic and Trajkovic I took to the location where
8 the bodies were buried and showed it to them so that they would know in
9 the event of possible future plans about any works that might be carried
10 out on this location."
11 Did you say anything to this effect to Mr. Karleusa, and did you
12 take Simovic and Trajkovic to this location?
13 A. I never said anything like this. And I did not take either of my
14 commanders, Mr. Simovic or Mr. Trajkovic to any location. And this is
15 the truth.
16 Q. After all of your answers I still need to ask you this, witness,
17 K87: Can you assume or do you know when you look at this Official Note
18 and everything that is written there, how do you explain all the facts
19 that are mentioned there if you say that that is something that you never
21 A. I never paid any particular attention to this statement. I never
22 really carefully analysed it in the way that we have just done at your
23 prompting. We analysed it and went detail by detail through it, and the
24 impression that I get, it doesn't have to be the correct impression, is
25 that it is full of untruths, that it is quite pretentious, and that there
1 are indications that certain things are being ascribed to the General.
2 This is something that one can conclude. I am, I repeat, analysing it
3 like this in more detail for the first time. And this Official Note, it
4 is something that leads me, personally, to that conclusion.
5 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, (redacted).
6 Thank you, Your Honours, I don't have any further questions for
7 this witness.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, thank you, Mr. Popovic.
9 Mr. Behar, is it convenient to continue now?
10 MR. BEHAR: Yes, I think so, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Behar:
13 Q. Sir, I just have a few questions for you arising out of the
14 answers that you've just given. Sir, you testified that in your first
15 meeting with Mr. Djordjevic, he was speaking in the plural, and you said
16 - and this was at page 12 of the transcript for my friend - you said
17 that he referred to someone as "the boss," and then you said "I cannot
18 say who he meant." And you were asked then to speculate about who his
19 boss could have been, and you said "the minister." That was your
21 Sir, I want to ask you, was anyone else Mr. Djordjevic's boss at
22 that time? Was there anyone else who was senior to him?
23 A. At the ministry only the minister. Mr. Djordjevic was a ministry
25 Q. Let's just focus on my question, sir --
1 A. The number two man in the ministry.
2 Q. I'm just asking you, sir, was anyone else in the entire chain of
3 command, not just within the ministry, was anyone else senior to
4 Mr. Djordjevic?
5 A. Only the minister.
6 Q. What about Mr. Milosevic, sir, was he senior to Mr. Djordjevic?
7 A. As far as I know, Mr. Milosevic did not command the police. He
8 was in command of the army. He was the Commander-in-Chief. The
9 president of a state is the supreme commander of the army. The police is
10 under the command of the minister. This is what I know, what we have
11 been taught in schools, that this is so.
12 Q. I understand, sir, but if you can just focus on my question. For
13 now I'm just asking you was Mr. Milosevic senior to Mr. Djordjevic? It's
14 a very straightforward question.
15 A. I think not, no.
16 Q. So you are saying that Mr. Milosevic was not senior to
17 Mr. Djordjevic, he was not capable of giving him an order?
18 A. I think that he would not be able to do that to him.
19 Q. Can you explain that, sir? Can you explain why not, why you have
20 that view now?
21 A. I always thought that the communication is normal, that the
22 president of the state, it doesn't matter who it is, Milosevic or
23 Jankovic, the president of the state would communicate with the minister.
24 He wouldn't communicate with the number two or the number three man in
25 the ministry, but with the number one person, and that is the minister.
1 And that is how it works everywhere in the world. So I really wouldn't
2 know about the details whether Milosevic could issue an order to
3 Djordjevic out of the usual procedure. That is something that I'm not
4 aware of. But I'm telling you what I know from books, what I have been
5 taught, and what I'm obliged to know of the hierarchy of the state that I
6 live in.
7 Q. To your knowledge, sir, was Mr. Milosevic senior to
8 Minister Milutinovic?
9 A. I am sorry, I don't know. At the time Mr. Milutinovic was
10 minister of what?
11 Q. Well, sir, maybe I'll move off of this topic for a moment. Sir,
12 you were asked about how you knew that a new truck with bodies would be
13 arriving at the centre, and you -- this was when you were going through
14 the statement, the Working Group statement, and you denied that
15 Mr. Lipovac would call you. Do you remember saying that, sir?
16 A. Yes, I did say that Mr. Lipovac did not call me.
17 Q. Sir, can you tell us how did you learn that a new truck would be
18 arriving at the centre? So if there was a new truck that was coming or
19 that had arrived, how would you be informed about that?
20 A. Like I said in the statement that I gave to the investigators,
21 Mr. Djordjevic would inform me about the arrival of the truck.
22 Q. And so would this also be the case when additional trucks were
23 arriving, sir? In other words, after the first truck had arrived?
24 A. Yes, yes, yes. This happened on three or four more occasions
25 that we communicated.
1 Q. And can you explain how he would inform you or how you would
2 learn that this -- that a new truck was arriving?
3 A. Who? Do you mean he -- I don't understand -- the question is not
4 clear to me.
5 Q. I just wanted some additional explanation, sir. You said that
6 Mr. Djordjevic would inform you about the arrival of the truck. I'm
7 just --
8 A. Please go ahead. Please.
9 Q. I'm just asking if you can explain how he would inform you.
10 A. By telephone.
11 Q. And can you tell us when he would call in relation to the truck?
12 Was it before when it was -- was it -- sorry, I'll start again. Was it
13 before the truck had arrived, would he tell you it was coming? Was it
15 A. The first time it was after it arrived. And the other times I
16 think it was before it arrived. I don't know exactly. I really cannot
17 say now. But I know that the first time it was once the truck had
19 Q. I understand, sir. Can you explain, sir, what Mr. Lipovac's role
21 A. What I know is this: Mr. Lipovac had a logistical technical
22 role. On a couple of occasions he brought fuel which was poured into the
23 trucks and then they were driven off to a direction or destination
24 unknown to me.
25 Q. And you say he brought fuel. Can you just explain to us, to the
1 Court, where he brought the fuel to.
2 A. I don't know. I don't know where he loaded the fuel. I know
3 that he would bring it to the centre in Batajnica. The trucks were
4 refueled there and then they were taken somewhere. I don't know where.
5 That was his assignment or his task as far as I know.
6 Q. I think that answers the question, sir. Thank you.
7 And, sir, do you know what Mr. Lipovac's job was?
8 A. You are welcome.
9 Q. What his professional role was within the ministry? I am more
10 looking for his --
11 A. I don't think that he had any -- I don't know what his
12 professional role was, his title. I know that he was performing the
13 duties of Mr. Djordjevic's driver. I know him as somebody who did those
15 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, just to very briefly revisit some question
16 I'd asked you earlier. I made a mistake and referred to
17 Minister Milutinovic. Of course, I meant to refer to
18 Minister Stojiljkovic. And maybe I'll just put the question to you
19 again. I'd asked first the simple question, was Mr. Milosevic senior to
20 Minister Stojiljkovic? Can you answer that for us, sir.
21 A. Yes, by his position, of course he was, yes.
22 Q. So then, sir, was Mr. Milosevic also senior to Mr. Djordjevic in
23 your knowledge?
24 A. Yes, by nature of his post, of course, yes.
25 Q. So -- and I know you've speculated on this, sir, but when
1 Mr. Djordjevic was referring to his boss, could that have been
2 Mr. Milosevic, sir? Or to the boss, I should say, could that have been
3 Mr. Milosevic?
4 A. You are expecting me to give you my opinion or to interpret that
5 freely. Could you please clarify your question so that we can stay in a
6 proper professional conversation until the end so that I would be able to
7 say how it was. Please.
8 Q. I think my question is clear, sir. You had offered earlier your
9 speculation that that may have been the minister that Mr. Djordjevic was
10 referring to, and I'm asking you when he used the term "the boss," to
11 your knowledge could that have referred to Mr. Milosevic?
12 A. I personally think not because a high-ranking police official, I
13 believe, could not afford himself such a luxury to call the president of
14 the republic as boss. I don't think that somebody would do that. That
15 is my personal opinion, that they would not refer to the president of the
16 state as the boss.
17 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, sir. Those are my questions for you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Behar.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know, witness, that that
22 concludes the questions for you. The Chamber would thank you for your
23 attendance in Belgrade
24 you are now free to go about your ordinary activities. Your evidence to
25 us has reached an end. So we will thank you, and we will close the
1 videolink for today. It will be resumed tomorrow for another reason.
2 So thank you very much, sir.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I would like to wish
4 everybody a lot of luck and good health, and good-bye to everybody.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 That concludes the evidence of this witness. If we could close
7 the videolink or the screen here.
8 [Witness withdrew via videolink]
9 Now, we have finished very early, much earlier than expected, the
10 evidence of this witness today. Our next witness is programmed to be
11 heard tomorrow at 9.00. Before we adjourn for the day, there are some
12 housekeeping matters that I need to deal with.
13 On the 10th of May, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and the
14 Defence that it had received a formal English translation of the document
15 that was marked for identification as P1526. That being so, the
16 Prosecution will have leave to upload that translation, and that having
17 been done, the document will become Exhibit P1526 with the English
18 translation attached to it.
19 Next, on the 11th of May, the Defence notified the Chamber and
20 the Prosecution that it had received English translations of four
21 documents that had been marked for identification as D901, D903, D907,
22 and D908. Those translations may now be uploaded in e-court, and the
23 documents marked for identification with the numbers that I've indicated
24 will now become exhibits with those same numbers.
25 The Chamber has also noted that several transcripts have been
1 admitted in this case pursuant to Rule 92 ter, but when they are checked,
2 the transcripts are not corrected transcripts. They may not contain
3 post-session redactions and other corrections. These are presently
4 Exhibits P428, P495, P979, P1321 and P1416. They are in each case
5 Prosecution exhibits. Accordingly, the Chamber would ask that the
6 transcripts that are in these exhibits be checked and final transcripts
7 that include any corrections and redactions that may have been given in
8 closed or private session should be incorporated. And with those final
9 transcripts incorporated, the exhibits will continue to have the same
10 exhibit number. So that's a homework job for the Prosecution with
11 respect to five of the existing exhibits. We don't have corrected and
12 final transcripts.
13 There's a further matter the Chamber would mention as a practical
14 measure at this time when both parties will be reviewing evidence as they
15 prepare their final submissions. There are many cases in the course of
16 this trial over the last year and three or four months where out of
17 caution the Chamber has heard certain evidence in closed session or in
18 private session when by the end of that questioning it's been clear that
19 there's been no need for the evidence to have been received in private or
20 closed session. It was done out of caution, whether it was a Prosecution
21 or Defence witness, just to be sure that there was no reference to some
22 matter that should not have been publicly referred to.
23 The Chamber proposes before it concludes this case to remove the
24 orders for private or closed session that are unnecessary, as it were, to
25 free up the transcript as much as possible for public record, and to free
1 it up for the purposes of reference to the transcript for purposes of
2 submissions and judgement. We would ask both Prosecution and Defence if,
3 as they are reviewing the transcript, they notice there are passages that
4 are for no good reason the subject of an order for closed or private
5 session, that they bring this to the attention of the Chamber's Legal
6 Officer so that it can be included in a general order that relaxes any
7 unnecessary orders for private and closed session.
8 Is there any other matter that needs attention at this stage,
9 Mr. Behar?
10 MR. BEHAR: I don't believe so, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 Mr. Popovic?
13 MR. POPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you, that
14 would be it.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I see your learned leader behind was getting ready
16 to answer that. He acknowledges the reliability of what you have said.
17 We will in the circumstances then adjourn for the day with a view
18 to resuming tomorrow at 9.00.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.21 a.m.
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of May,
21 2010, at 9.00 a.m.