Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Monday, 8th September 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-13a-PT, Prosecutor v

4 Slavko Dokmanovic.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: May we have the appearances for counsel,

6 please?

7 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Grant

8 Niemann and I appear with my colleague Mr. Williamson for

9 the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: For the Defence please may I have

11 appearances?

12 MR. FILA: Your Honour, my name is Toma Fila, I am an

13 attorney, I am here with my colleague Miss Jelena

14 Lopicic.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Mr. Niemann and Mr. Fila, this

16 morning we will be hearing a motion filed by the Defence

17 challenging the legality of the arrest of

18 Mr. Dokmanovic. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Fila?

19 MR. FILA: Yes, your Honour, but before that, I would like to

20 say that I withdraw the second motion with regard to the

21 indictment, as regards the imprecision of the

22 indictment. Please consider it invalid because I have

23 written an informal letter to the Prosecution and we

24 have discussed that.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. That motion challenging the

Page 2

1 form of the indictment was a part of this motion that

2 you filed challenging the legality of the arrest. That

3 will be considered withdrawn. Thank you. Do you wish

4 to make any opening statement before we proceed with

5 evidence?

6 MR. FILA: I would like to present my opening statement after

7 the presentation of the evidence, if it pleases the

8 court.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: That is acceptable. Mr. Niemann, do you

10 have anything to say at this point or do you wish to

11 await the receipt of evidence?

12 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, there is one matter, if I may

13 raise it at this stage. One of the witnesses that we

14 intend to call today is an interpreter and he operates

15 in the field in Bosnia and in Croatia and Serbia.

16 Because of that we are asking for very limited

17 protective measures, namely that his name not be used in

18 the course of the proceedings. No other protection is

19 sought in relation to him.

20 We have discussed this matter with Mr. Fila and

21 Mr. Fila consents to our application. Your Honours,

22 because of the difficult situation in operating on three

23 sides, we submit that this is an appropriate matter

24 where limited protection, just in the use of the name,

25 would in our submission be appropriate.

Page 3

1 I have written his name on a piece of paper. If

2 your Honours are disposed to grant the witness this

3 limited protection, then I will hand the note to Mr. Fila

4 and it can then be handed up to your Honours.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: He or she will be known as witness?

6 MR. NIEMANN: Witness A, your Honour.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: When we hear from that witness, then what

8 we will do is to show the witness a piece of paper and

9 ask him to confirm that that is his name, and otherwise

10 your request will be granted and that witness will be

11 referred to as Witness A.

12 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Very good.

14 MR. FILA: Please, the name.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann, is there any objection to the

16 accused being given the name of the witness?

17 MR. NIEMANN: Excuse me a moment. (Pause).

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Just one moment.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, if I might ask Mr. Williamson to

20 address you on that matter, because that is something

21 that he is peculiarly aware of in view of this

22 particular interpreter's involvement on the day of the

23 arrest. Perhaps I might ask him to address you on this

24 matter.

25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, at the time of the request the

Page 4

1 interpreter had requested that the accused not know his

2 name and, in fact, a false name was used in all of his

3 conversations with Mr. Dokmanovic, so it would be our

4 request that he not be provided with the name of the

5 interpreter.


7 MR. FILA: Just one moment.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. I really do not see the need for the

9 accused to know the name of the witness. The purpose of

10 this protective measure, the writing of the name on a

11 piece of paper and the witness confirming that that is

12 his name is for the court, for the Tribunal to make sure

13 that that witness is who he purports to be, so really it

14 is a protection as it relates to -- in terms of

15 identification of the name, it is protection for the

16 court to assure that this person is who he purports to

17 be.

18 MR. FILA: Your Honour, Mr. Dokmanovic would only like to know

19 whether the witness is a male or a female.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: From what I hear he is a male.

21 MR. WILLIAMSON: He is a male.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Is that the --

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, this is the interpreter

24 depicted on the videotape that Mr. Dokmanovic, the court

25 and Defence counsel have seen.

Page 5

1 JUDGE McDONALD: That was what I was going to ask you. The

2 request of Prosecution will be granted, the witness will

3 be referred to as Witness A. The court will confirm

4 that that witness is who he purports to be when he is

5 called. Mr. Fila, would you call your first witness,

6 please?

7 MR. FILA: The Defence calls Mr. Knezevic.

8 (Witness entered court)

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Knezevic, would you stand, please? You

10 will be given an oath that I ask you take.


12 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you very much, you may be seated.

13 A. Thank you.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, you may begin.

15 MR. FILA: Your Honour, since we do not have much -- I cannot

16 ask too much questions because we only have one day and

17 I would like to say some time, I would like you to allow

18 me to question this witness only about the circumstances

19 of how he found himself with Mr. Dokmanovic in the

20 critical moment and what happened at that time, so this

21 is only one brief story that I would like to question

22 him about, if that is agreeable to the court.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: That is, but Mr. Fila, we have as much time

24 as you need. I do not want you to limit your time. We

25 can proceed as late into the evening as is necessary.

Page 6

1 Fine, you may proceed. Yes, Mr. Fila.

2 Examined by MR. FILA

3 Q. Can you please tell us a few words about yourself

4 Mr. Knezevic, who you are, how you found yourself with

5 Mr. Dokmanovic, how do you know him, and what happened

6 when you entered into UNTAES?

7 A. My name is Milan Knezevic, I was born in 1945 in Dalj.

8 My occupation, I am a teacher, I am a father of two

9 children. I have two sons, one is age 23 and the other

10 one is aged 17. I lived and I worked as a teacher in

11 Darda Republic of Croatia and since 28th May, I have

12 been forced to leave the territory of Croatia because of

13 threats and a list of the Serbs under suspicion. I left

14 my entire property in Croatia. I live in Sombor now and

15 I knew Mr. Dokmanovic from before because we were

16 involved in sports in Slavonija and in Baranja where we

17 both lived and worked. I knew him as an honourable man

18 and a good friend. Since fate has forced us to live in

19 the same town, it was quite normal that we had the

20 occasion to see each other. On that day, that was

21 26th June 1997, I worked in a rented house in which

22 I lived with my family in Sombor. I was working in the

23 yard, I was mowing the lawn. Mr. Dokmanovic called me on

24 the phone and asked me to come to his place urgently.

25 I thought he wanted me to help him in some way and at

Page 7

1 6.10 pm I reached Mr. Dokmanovic's place. He was with a

2 friend, they were having coffee, it was an informal

3 friendly atmosphere and so we talked about freedom of

4 thought and we also discussed politics and sport. Then

5 maybe after 30 minutes of conversation, Mr. Dokmanovic

6 and I quote, he told me, I quote, "my friend, I have a

7 proposal for you, a good idea". Then I learnt that

8 Mr. Dokmanovic offered me a very interesting proposal.

9 He wanted me to go with him to Vukovar the next day and

10 after his explanation I told him very briefly, "Slavko,

11 I still do not trust the Croatian authorities. Even

12 today I do not trust some of the persons from UNTAES,

13 because I have some experience and I am afraid that if

14 we go there, we would be framed". But Mr. Dokmanovic,

15 very persuasively, was trying to make me go and I trust

16 my friend, I trust him even today. He told me that he

17 had guarantees from the secretary, Mr. Michael

18 Hryshchyshyn from the Cabinet of Mr. Klein and then

19 I began to see that there was some justification in what

20 we were talking about.

21 Then he mentioned a man by the name of Kevin

22 Curtis. I had never met that person, I had never heard

23 about that. That was the first time I heard about him.

24 He told me that he had discussions with that man the

25 previous day at his home in Sombor and that he had

Page 8

1 received guarantees of assurances of safe conduct and

2 that there would be no problems because they would go to

3 Vukovar and back under the protection and control of

4 UNTAES, and I do trust UNTAES in such circumstances.

5 He also told me in the end that Mr. Klein, the

6 chief administrator, he was at the time in New York and

7 he was travelling to Zagreb, that he had assurances from

8 him too. Mr. Klein was travelling to Zagreb and he was

9 supposed to meet Mr. Tudjman and discuss the protection

10 of property of non-amnestied Serbs. Then I saw a

11 document and I believed in that document, and I thought

12 that if we managed to protect the property, our property

13 and the property of the other side, why should we not go

14 and have this discussion? We believed, we thought that

15 Mr. Klein was a very honourable man. I went with

16 Mr. Klein to Zagreb twice in my capacity as the member of

17 the executive counsel, municipal executive council, so

18 I said to Mr. Dokmanovic, "we will see tomorrow. You do

19 not know what is going to happen until tomorrow".

20 So I left Mr. Dokmanovic saying that maybe I will

21 go and maybe I will not, and the next morning we heard

22 each other on the phone and then I said that I would go,

23 because then I believed that what Mr. Kevin Curtis

24 offered was the truth, bearing in mind his function and

25 his position. Mr. Dokmanovic came to my home around 2.15

Page 9

1 pm, and it took us about 30 to 40 minutes to reach the

2 bridge on our side, on the Serbian side, by car, and we

3 discussed the lack of security in the place where we

4 were going, because the previous day the court, a court

5 in Croatia convicted an innocent man to five years

6 imprisonment. I knew that person personally, he was

7 innocent, but Mr. Dokmanovic really had an enormous

8 confidence and trust in what the secretary of Mr. Klein

9 and Mr. Kevin Curtis had assured him of and that was the

10 intention of Mr. Klein, to protect us.

11 When we reached the bridge, it was 14.53 hours and

12 the car in which we came was taken over by a friend of

13 Mr. Dokmanovic and a friend of mine, and he took the car

14 to his house for safe keeping, so we crossed the bridge,

15 it was about 14.55 hours. We walked across the bridge.

16 We greeted our customs officials and police officers,

17 they did not check us and then at the distance of about

18 30 metres, both myself and Mr. Dokmanovic saw two parked

19 cars with UN signs, and as we approached them -- well

20 the distance was about maybe 30 metres -- a man was

21 standing in front of those cars, he was dressed in very

22 elegant manner, he was dark, I would be able to

23 recognise him. He held the badge in his hand and when

24 we reached him, he asked, "Mr. Dokmanovic?",

25 Mr. Dokmanovic nodded, yes, and then he said "You?", and

Page 10

1 he was told I was a friend and he said okay.

2 On the basis of some of my psychological analysis,

3 I realised that this man did not like the fact that

4 I was there. Mr. Dokmanovic was given a badge which he

5 placed on his left lapel, it was a badge with a colour

6 photograph and I entered the car. Maybe a minute or two

7 later, we started across the bridge at quite high

8 speed. I was sure we were going to Vukovar to talk to

9 Mr. Klein. We were under armed escort, and to the left

10 of me, I sat behind the driver, the window was open and

11 there was a strong draught which bothered me. I tried

12 to close the window with the button. It did not work

13 and at that time I became suspicious, I thought

14 something was going on. I started to suspect that this

15 looked like some kind of -- that I was being detained in

16 some way, and as we approached the border the car slowed

17 down.

18 Towards us, there were some civilians vehicles

19 coming towards us from the direction of Dalj, and the

20 traffic was stopped on that side for a short period and

21 we were able to cross easily. At that time I noticed

22 something that I had never noted before and I had

23 crossed that crossing maybe 200 or 300 times, that

24 everybody saluted the car that we were in, and that gave

25 me some indication that this was a specific situation,

Page 11

1 probably out of respect for the vehicle owned by

2 Mr. Klein.

3 So we approached the UNTAES checkpoint, which is

4 about a kilometre and a half away from that crossing.

5 The vehicle slowed down and in the opposite direction,

6 in front of the camp, there was a white truck. It was

7 parked there, it was with the UN insignia. I am very

8 familiar with that area because I was born there, as

9 I said, in Dalj. As we approached the camp, going

10 towards the middle area in the camp, the vehicle that

11 was parked to the right went over to the left side, and

12 for a moment it seemed to me that there would be a

13 crash, but our driver swerved into the camp with the

14 frightening screech of the tyres and so now I am coming

15 to a very peculiar element, when the vehicle stopped

16 suddenly there was some masked people armed and we were

17 dragged out of the vehicle and at that moment, we were

18 taken -- one of us were taken to the right side and

19 Mr. Dokmanovic was taken to the left side.

20 At that moment, I felt very unsafe. I was sure

21 that I had been sincere, but that I had allowed myself

22 to be arrested in the territory of my State and to be

23 taken to the other side. My hands were tied behind my

24 back, as were Mr. Dokmanovic's, and I was taken under

25 armed escort to a rather dark container, where

Page 12

1 I remained from maybe 15.05 hours to maybe 21.00 hours

2 when I was visited by an interpreter from Mr. Klein's

3 office, and a person who I assume is from Mr. Klein's

4 office that deals with legal affairs. I was told then

5 that I was arrested by mistake and that I would be

6 released and taken to our side of the border.

7 That is how it happened. I was taken across to

8 halfway across the bridge and I went back to our side on

9 foot. As for Mr. Dokmanovic, I did not know where he

10 was, nor was I told. The only thing I was told was that

11 there would be an indictment against Mr. Dokmanovic on

12 the basis of a well kept secret under seal, as a

13 movement in chess, to be activated the moment he moves

14 to the Serb territory.

15 Your Honour, I would like to end my presentation

16 with this opinion stated.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, do you have an additional

18 question?

19 MR. FILA: No, thank you.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Cross-examination?

21 Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

22 Q. Mr. Knezevic, my name is Clint Williamson, I am an

23 attorney from the Prosecutor's office. How long have

24 you known Slavko Dokmanovic?

25 A. I have known Mr. Dokmanovic from the 80s, in mid 80s,

Page 13

1 maybe 1984, 1985.

2 Q. You said you were involved in some sport activities with

3 him; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What type of sports was that?

6 A. Soccer.

7 Q. Did you consider him to be a good friend?

8 A. I considered him to be a good friend after several years

9 of our co-operation in the field of sports. I got to

10 know his style and his character and yes, I do claim

11 that he was a good friend of mine.

12 Q. On 27th June when you travelled with him to the bridge

13 at Bogojevo, were you aware that he had a weapon with

14 him?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When you got to the border post you indicated that you

17 spoke to the Serbian customs officers and then walked

18 about 30 metres past the border post in the direction of

19 Croatia and got in the vehicles; is that correct?

20 A. It is correct that I greeted the customs officials and

21 the police forces. It is good manners and proper

22 behaviour, and also with the question, "do you want our

23 ID on the way there or back", it was not a conversation,

24 just a question as we were walking past. One of the

25 duty officers waved us through. I did not stay there to

Page 14

1 talk to them.

2 Q. After you spoke to them, just passed your greetings, you

3 said you walked about 30 metres past the border post to

4 get into the vehicle; is that correct?

5 MR. FILA: Objection.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes, Mr. Fila?

7 A. From the place --

8 MR. FILA: He never said across the border, this is not

9 correct. Objection, the witness never said that he had

10 crossed the border. He simply never said it. You have

11 to know the bridge, the UNTAES vehicles are on the

12 territory of Yugoslavia, not across the border. The

13 witness never said this.

14 MR. WILLIAMSON: I did not ask that either. I asked him if

15 he passed the border post and walked 30 metres to get

16 into the vehicles; is that correct, Mr. Knezevic?

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Knezevic?

18 A. I am not able to understand the question. If you do not

19 mind repeating the question once again?

20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Where were the vehicles located in relation

21 to the border post?

22 A. In relation to the border post where the vehicles were,

23 there were about 30 metres, 30 or 40 metres around that

24 from the place where our police forces were.

25 Q. In which direction, 30 metres or 40 metres in which

Page 15

1 direction?

2 A. In the direction between Bogojevo and Erdut, that is the

3 direction from the Serb side, from our Serb side, the

4 Yugoslav side, towards the Republic of Croatia and to

5 the border crossing, there is still about a kilometre

6 and a half to two.

7 Q. I understand that from the border post, Bogojevo is in

8 one direction, Erdut is in the other direction, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were the vehicles located on the side toward Erdut or on

11 the side toward Bogojevo in relation to the border post?

12 A. In relation to the ramp where the police are on the

13 guard, the vehicle was facing Erdut, was turned towards

14 the direction of Erdut, to be concrete on the left bank

15 of the Danube where we were, there was a vehicle still

16 inside of the territory and on the right bank, across

17 the Danube. That is the territory of Croatia and the

18 territory of Erdut. The vehicle was on our side.

19 Q. I understand it was on that side of the river, but I am

20 asking you, had the vehicles passed the border post or

21 were they still on the other side of the border post, on

22 the side in the direction of Erdut?

23 A. According to duty regulations, vehicles cannot go across

24 when they want to the territory of one or the other

25 State. That is done with a special permit with an

Page 16

1 explanation as to why that is done and if the vehicle

2 had requested it in that case, it would have no longer

3 been able to drive across the way Dokmanovic and

4 Knezevic were driven across.

5 Q. But you did not answer my question: was the vehicle

6 located on the side of the border post in the direction

7 of Erdut, on the Erdut side of the border post? It is a

8 very simple question.

9 A. Yes, on the side of Erdut. I said that.

10 Q. Thank you. In relation to what Mr. Dokmanovic told you

11 about his assurances from Mr. Hryshcyhshyn and from

12 General Klein, this information you have received only

13 from Mr. Dokmanovic; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, I had not spoken of that with anybody else, nor

15 would I want to speak about that with anybody else.

16 Q. You were not present when the telephone call was placed

17 between Mr. Dokmanovic and Mr. Hryshcyhshyn; is that

18 correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You were not present for any of the conversations

21 between Mr. Dokmanovic and Mr. Curtis; is that correct?

22 A. No.

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have nothing further, your Honour.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, do you have additional questions?

25 Re-examined by MR. FILA

Page 17

1 Q. Just one to clarify as to why did Mr. Knezevic need

2 assurances to cross the border. Is he on any list of

3 the Croatian authorities?

4 A. Should I answer? I am on the list of unwanted

5 non-amnestied Serbs of number 147 decision of the

6 Republic of Croatia and I am under investigation on the

7 basis of Article 122 of the penal code of the Republic

8 of Croatia, which is a crime against war prisoners.

9 Q. Would you have crossed the border unless you had these

10 guarantees?

11 A. Never.

12 Q. Let us clarify this: where is the border between Croatia

13 and Yugoslavia?

14 A. The border between Yugoslavia and Croatia is along the

15 river Danube.

16 Q. On which side were the vehicles?

17 A. The vehicles were on the left side of the Danube, on the

18 side of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the

19 Republic of Yugoslavia.

20 MR. FILA: Thank you.

21 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have nothing further, your Honour.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Knezevic, I have just a couple of

23 questions. You testified that Mr. Dokmanovic showed you

24 a document when you visited him on June 26th.

25 A. I testified that Mr. Dokmanovic showed me a document, no

Page 18

1 document was shown to me on 26th June, so that is the

2 day when I went to Mr. Dokmanovic, only to talk to him to

3 obtain information and for him to persuade me to take

4 the journey with him the following day.

5 Q. When was it that Mr. Dokmanovic showed you a document?

6 I understood that you visited him on June 26th, came to

7 his house about 6.10, talked with him and then he showed

8 you some document. Maybe I misunderstood your

9 testimony.

10 A. No document was shown to me by Mr. Dokmanovic. Perhaps

11 what you remember is the following, the moment

12 Mr. Dokmanovic telephoned me and invited me, he told me

13 to come over to his home to speak with me and to show me

14 something, but there was something said but nothing

15 shown.

16 Q. Then it was at 2.15, I gather, on June 26th that

17 Mr. Dokmanovic came to your house and then you were

18 driven to the bridge on the side of the Federal Republic

19 of Yugoslavia; is that correct?

20 A. It is correct, Mr. Dokmanovic was very precise at 2.15

21 with the sound of the siren he announced his arrival,

22 I was prepared, I was waiting for him. I picked up my

23 bag and I went outside, locked my house and went to the

24 vehicle at 2.15 pm.

25 Q. This vehicle was, I gather, driven by a friend of yours

Page 19

1 or Mr. Dokmanovic, they then drove you, he or she drove

2 you to the bridge; is that correct?

3 A. It is correct that Mr. Dokmanovic and I were alone on our

4 way to Bogojevo and in a camping area. We stopped at a

5 place where his friend Mr. Bozidar Purkovic lived. We

6 stopped by to pick him up. Mr. Dokmanovic continued to

7 drive to the bridge, turned the vehicle, and when he

8 left the vehicle, he gave the steering wheel to

9 Mr. Purkovic, who officially then returned the vehicle

10 back and parked it by his house.

11 Q. You and Mr. Dokmanovic walked across the bridge. Did you

12 then walk through the customs point that was manned by

13 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

14 A. Customs point and the police station or command post are

15 connected, they are one next to the other. So when

16 I crossed the customs and the police point, yes, they

17 were about 10 or 15 metres behind us when you drive

18 across with the vehicle because an UNTAES vehicle is not

19 allowed to cross to the other side without special

20 permission from UNTAES.

21 Q. The customs point, is that the point after which you

22 pass through, you are on Croatian -- the Croatian side?

23 A. No, that is our Yugoslav side. As I said, we had about

24 a kilometre and a half to the Croatian territory.

25 Q. Is there a Croatian customs point on the bridge?

Page 20

1 A. Looking towards Erdut it is about a kilometre and

2 a half, yes, on the other side of the river, at the

3 right bank of Danube. It was inland about 500 metres,

4 the Croatian side.

5 Q. So when you were picked up in the UNTAES vehicles, was

6 it -- which side was it with respect to the Croatian

7 customs point?

8 A. We were on the left bank, which means on the side of

9 Yugoslavia and Serbia, on the Bogojevo side.

10 Q. So I gather there is a point, there is an area on the

11 bridge over the Danube between the Croatian customs

12 point and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia customs

13 point, so that you go through the Federal Republic of

14 Yugoslavia's customs point, then you go for a period of

15 time over the bridge and then at another point you cross

16 through the Croatian customs point; is that correct?

17 A. I will try to be original from the place of the arrest,

18 my arrest, because that was when we were locked into the

19 vehicle, it was clear to me later but not at that

20 moment, if I had wanted to leave the vehicle, I was

21 unable to. I was simply forced to go across. I am

22 speaking on my personal behalf. To the border line

23 there is about 700 or 800 metres, that is to the middle

24 of the Danube River and the bridge. I do not know if

25 I am being clear.

Page 21

1 Q. There is a Croatian customs point on one side, I gather,

2 of the bridge and then there is a Federal Republic of

3 Yugoslavia customs point. Then in between the two

4 customs points is a length of the bridge.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How do you know at what point you are in Croatian

7 territory or territory of the Federal Republic of

8 Yugoslavia, having passed through the customs point of

9 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and not having passed

10 through the Croatian customs point, how do you know

11 whether you are in Croatian territory or territory of

12 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia while you are on this

13 bridge?

14 A. Very simple, I officially feel crossing into the

15 Republic of Croatia when I am as a citizen and a

16 passenger crossing the middle of the bridge and

17 approaching the right bank of Danube. Once I am in the

18 right bank of Danube, I am already 500 or 600 metres

19 into the territory of Croatia, because the border line

20 is along the middle of the Danube River.

21 Q. So you have to determine where the middle of the river

22 is, and once you are on one side of the middle of the

23 river, you are either in Croatian territory or the

24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, depending on what side

25 you are with respect to the middle of the river?

Page 22

1 A. That is what the regulations say. That is not what

2 I say.

3 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. Mr. Fila, do you have additional

4 questions?

5 MR. FILA: Your Honour, perhaps, if it pleases the court,

6 I want to explain something. The bridge does not go

7 just across the river --

8 JUDGE McDONALD: It is inappropriate for you to testify,

9 that is why we have a witness.

10 MR. FILA: No. All right then I will ask.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: That is why I asked the witness. He has

12 explained it well. If you wish to ask him additional

13 questions, ask him the questions and then we will hear

14 from him.

15 Further re-examined by MR. FILA

16 Q. If it please the court, I would just like to ask one

17 question: were the UNTAES vehicles on the part of the

18 bridge that is over the river or on the part of the

19 bridge that was over land?

20 A. Both vehicles were on the territory of the Republic of

21 Yugoslavia on the shore on the bank, on the part where

22 the bridge is over the land and not over the water.

23 MR. FILA: That is what I wanted to explain. And another

24 question, how were they dressed? If it pleases the

25 court, that is what I have forgotten. What were they

Page 23

1 wearing, you and Mr. Dokmanovic?

2 A. I remember very well that I was wearing a summer shirt

3 with short sleeves.

4 Q. And Dokmanovic?

5 A. And Dokmanovic was wearing a suit, a suit similar to the

6 one I am wearing with a tie.

7 MR. FILA: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Williamson?

9 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have nothing else, your Honour.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there any objection to Mr. Knezevic being

11 permanently excused?

12 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Knezevic, you are permanently excused.

14 That means you are free to leave. You understand the

15 limitations that govern your presence here so

16 I understand you will then be leaving and returning to

17 where you came from. Thank you very much for coming.

18 A. Thank you.

19 (The witness withdrew)

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, would you call your next witness,

21 please?

22 MR. FILA: I would like to call the wife of Mr. Dokmanovic,

23 Mrs. Danilka Dokmanovic.

24 (Witness entered court)

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Mrs. Dokmanovic, would you please stand?

Page 24

1 You will be handed an oath for you to take.


3 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr. Fila?

4 Miss Lopicic?

5 Examined by MS. LOPICIC

6 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel has not turned the microphone

7 on.

8 MS. LOPICIC: Mrs. Dokmanovic, could you please tell us

9 something about yourself, who you are, et cetera.

10 A. My name is Danilka Dokmanovic, born on 24th October 1949

11 in Vukovar. I am the wife of Slavko Dokmanovic. I hold

12 a degree in commerce. I am a mother of two. At the

13 moment I reside in Sombor in Vojvodjanska Street, number

14 35. Anything else?

15 Q. No, thank you. I also wanted to ask you if you know

16 Mr. Curtis and his interpreter?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Have Mr. Curtis and his interpreter visited your home?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us when that happened and what you talked

21 about?

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Let us make sure that we do not mention the

23 name of that interpreter. Mrs. Dokmanovic, before you

24 came into court an agreement was reached between counsel

25 that the name of that interpreter will not be mentioned

Page 25

1 so do not mention his name, please.

2 MS. LOPICIC: All right, just the interpreter, without

3 mentioning his name.

4 A. For the first name they visited the house where I live

5 on 24th June 1997. I was at work, but Slavko told me

6 that people from the Tribunal were to come at 10.00 to

7 the house where we lived. I returned home about 2.10 in

8 the afternoon and I met two men there, talking to my

9 husband. On that day they stayed about 4.20, 4.30 in

10 the afternoon, I am not exactly sure about the time.

11 Anything else?

12 Q. Do you know what they talked about?

13 A. They talked about the events in Vukovar, mainly before

14 the war broke out, while my husband was still in

15 Vukovar, while he was still allowed access.

16 Q. When did you learn that your husband was to travel on

17 Friday 27th to Vukovar?

18 A. On the 26th when I returned from work the people from

19 the Tribunal had already left and Slavko told me that on

20 27th June he was going to go to Vukovar to meet

21 Mr. Klein. I tried to persuade him not to go, I told him

22 not to go. I told him it was not safe, but he told me

23 that he had arranged everything, that Mr. Curtis had put

24 him in contact with Mr. Klein's secretary, Mr. Michael

25 Hryshcyhshyn, who guaranteed security, who guaranteed

Page 26

1 safe journey there and return to Sombor. I tried to

2 persuade him not to go once again, but when he explained

3 to me that everything is arranged, that they told him

4 they would send the General's vehicles to pick him up,

5 vehicles which are safe and known to the checkpoints and

6 not stopped, that would be quite safe. I also believed

7 that, believing that Mr. Klein is there, in that

8 territory, to protect us and so Slavko left for Vukovar

9 on the 27th.

10 Q. I will give you a note that I have given to the court.

11 If you can explain to us the meaning of this note?

12 A. I do apologise.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Can we mark that as an exhibit?

14 MS. LOPICIC: This document is already on the files as

15 evidence and it has been translated to the English

16 language. The Defence has provided a translation. Here

17 is a copy in English, the paper is -- the slip of paper

18 is an original and this is a photocopy. (Handed).

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Miss Lopicic, the document that has been

20 handed to the witness will be marked as Defence

21 Exhibit 1 and then the English translation will be 1A.

22 I understand that they are a part of documents that have

23 been submitted to the Registry this morning, but I think

24 it is appropriate to make them a part of the record for

25 this hearing.

Page 27

1 MS. LOPICIC: The documents have been submitted and the

2 Defence submitted this on Friday, but we added the

3 translation to it and we submitted this to the Registry

4 this morning.

5 Could you explain to me exactly what is on this

6 piece of paper and who wrote this?

7 A. This was written by Slavko before he went to meet

8 Mr. Klein because I did not see him at home that day

9 because since I had been at work and the gentleman from

10 the Tribunal was supposed to meet him at our house at

11 7.00 in the evening the same day, and since Slavko

12 thought that he could be late, he wrote: "Danilka, if

13 I am not there by 7.00 in the evening and if I do not

14 call you, please call me on the above phone number",

15 which is the number of Mr. Klein's secretary and that is

16 the number that is in front of me.

17 Q. Then you concluded that that was when he was supposed to

18 meet Klein?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there any objection to Defence

22 Exhibit 1A?

23 MR. FILA: I have another question.

24 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: They will be admitted. Mr. Fila?

Page 28

1 MR. FILA: After learning that Mr. Dokmanovic had been

2 arrested, did the witness go to see Mr. Klein and if so,

3 what did they talk about on that occasion?

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, only one counsel may question the

5 witness. If there is another question that you wish to

6 put to the witness, then let Miss Lopicic do it.

7 MS. LOPICIC: So I will ask Mrs. Dokmanovic one more

8 question. After your husband was arrested, did you go

9 to meet Mr. Klein, General Klein, and if so, when and

10 explain the contents of your conversation?

11 A. Yes, I asked him to see me. He saw me on 2nd July and

12 the conversation was mainly with me asking how he could

13 have provided guarantees of safety to my husband who was

14 eventually arrested and who could have done that on his

15 behalf for his authority to be ridiculed in this way,

16 and then he explained to me that he had to co-operate

17 with the Tribunal, that that was the agreement, and this

18 is what he said to me, "if I had not arrested him,

19 I could have started packing my bags within 48 hours".

20 That was his answer to my questions and I had no further

21 questions.

22 MS. LOPICIC: Thank you very much, Mrs. Dokmanovic. That

23 will be all for now.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Any cross-examination?

25 Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

Page 29

1 Q. Just a couple of questions, your Honour.

2 Mrs. Dokmanovic, my name is Clint Williamson, I am one of

3 the attorneys from the Prosecutor's Office.

4 You were not present when your husband had any of

5 the discussions with Mr. Curtis about the arrangements

6 for him to go to Vukovar; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. You were not present when your husband spoke with

9 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn on the telephone; is that correct?

10 A. I was not present, but my sister-in-law was there. She

11 served him coffee at the time when Mr. -- when Slavko

12 talked to Mr. Hryshcyhshyn over the phone.

13 Q. But all of the information you have received in regard

14 to what assurances he may or may not have received have

15 been given to you by him; is that correct?

16 A. By him and by my sister-in-law, because she was present,

17 she was there when the gentleman from the Tribunal said,

18 having talked -- when Slavko talked to Mr. Hryshcyhshyn,

19 this gentleman from the Tribunal said "there is nothing

20 for you to fear because everything will be all right".

21 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Miss Lopicic?

23 MS. LOPICIC: No further questions for Mrs. Dokmanovic.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there any objection to Mrs. Dokmanovic

25 being permanently excused?

Page 30

1 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Mrs. Dokmanovic, you are permanently

3 excused, that means you are free to leave. Thank you

4 for coming.

5 A. Thank you.

6 (The witness withdrew)

7 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, do you have additional witnesses?

8 MR. FILA: Our last witness to conclude things within the two

9 hours as I promised, that is Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, who

10 will testify as to who told him what.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. We will stand in recess for 20

12 minutes and then we will hear from Mr. Dokmanovic.

13 (11.05 am)

14 (A short break)

15 (11.25 am)

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, would you call your next witness?

17 MR. FILA: Yes, your Honour. The Defence calls its next

18 witness, Mr. Dokmanovic, Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Dokmanovic?


21 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Dokmanovic, you may be

22 seated. Mr. Fila, I understand Mr. Dokmanovic now will be

23 testifying only about the circumstances surrounding the

24 arrest. That will be the limited purpose of this

25 testimony.

Page 31

1 Examined by MR. FILA

2 Q. Yes, your Honour, that is how I understood.

3 Mr. Dokmanovic, please, can you tell us something about

4 yourself to begin with, but if you could wait with your

5 answer for a while so that my question can be translated

6 into English.

7 A. My name is Slavko Dokmanovic, I was born on

8 14th December 1949 in Trpinja. I graduated from the

9 Faculty of Agriculture in Osijek and I worked in

10 agriculture, agri business in Osijek.

11 Q. I will ask you just a few questions regarding the

12 circumstances of your arrest. Until what time were you

13 involved in the assembly of Vukovar as the President of

14 the Municipal Assembly?

15 A. I was the President of the Municipal Assembly in Vukovar

16 until 5th April 1996.

17 Q. Is that close to the UNTAES base in Vukovar?

18 A. About a kilometre.

19 Q. At that time did you contact the UNTAES officials?

20 A. Virtually every day, because they were located in the

21 Vukovar municipality.

22 Q. How long after your --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.

24 A. I left in July, but I returned because my house was in

25 Trpinja. I do not recall the exact date when I was

Page 32

1 there for the last time, but I was employed until

2 5th October 1996.

3 MR. FILA: Did you have somebody, some of your relations who

4 lived in Croatia?

5 A. Yes, I have a house there and my son and his wife lived

6 there and my grandson.

7 Q. My next question is: how did you come into contact with

8 the officials from the Tribunal? When was the first

9 time and in what circumstances?

10 A. At the proposal of my friend, Mr. Milinkovic and another

11 friend of mine, Mr. Savic, I got in touch with the

12 officials of the Tribunal, their office in Belgrade and

13 the first meeting took place in the beginning of 1997,

14 somewhere in the vicinity of Belgrade. I do not recall

15 the exact name of the village. I met a woman whose name

16 I cannot recall now in the house of Mr. Milinkovic and

17 after that I was in touch with the representatives of

18 the Tribunal in the office in Vukovar. That was a few

19 telephone calls. It all happened in the spring of this

20 year.

21 Q. How did you come to meet Mr. Curtis?

22 A. I had a few telephone calls with Mr. Curtis before we

23 actually met. We first met on 24th June this year in my

24 house in Sombor in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

25 Q. What is your status in the Federal Republic of

Page 33

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. I am a refugee in Yugoslavia.

3 Q. Whose passport do you have and where have your ID been

4 issued?

5 A. I am treated as a refugee. I have an ID card issued in

6 Yugoslavia, I do not have a passport. I have an old

7 passport issued some time in the 80s.

8 Q. Where has it been issued?

9 A. In Croatia.

10 Q. Whose citizenship do you have?

11 A. I do not have a citizenship, I am a refugee.

12 Q. Whose citizenship did you have before that?

13 A. Yugoslav, and as to the republic we did not have

14 citizenship of the Republic, so I had citizenship of

15 Yugoslavia.

16 Q. Let us go back to your contact with Mr. Curtis. What

17 happened then?

18 A. On 24th June, after the telephone call, Mr. Curtis came

19 to my place as we agreed, we agreed that he would arrive

20 at 10 am. I think he arrived a few minutes earlier with

21 an interpreter, I let them in, and we talked from 10.00

22 until about 4.00 pm, about things that happened in

23 Vukovar in 1990 and 1991, and towards the end of our

24 discussion I asked Mr. Curtis whether, as part of the

25 authority -- whether the Tribunal is also authorised to

Page 34

1 solve issues regarding the property of Serbs not covered

2 with the amnesty and of those Serbs who are unable and

3 unwilling to live in the territory under the control of

4 UNTAES, and what would happen with that property,

5 because for most of the people this was the only

6 property they had, and Mr. Curtis told me it was not

7 within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, but he said

8 that it was under the jurisdiction of UNTAES and he

9 offered to me, after I told him that I was no longer in

10 touch with UNTAES, he offered that he would organise a

11 meeting with the representatives of UNTAES, that is with

12 General Klein, with regard to solving the issue of this

13 property. Since we agreed about that he told me that he

14 would let me know the next day when the meeting was

15 scheduled for, and that was 25th June 1997.

16 After that, Mr. Curtis left, together with his

17 interpreter. That was some time after 4.00 pm. The

18 next day we had arranged to meet again the next day,

19 that was on the 25th, the same time, the same place and

20 Mr. Curtis arrived with his interpreter, and then when we

21 entered the house he told me that he had some good news,

22 that he had talked to Mr. Michael Hryshcyhshyn, that

23 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn was expecting my phone call at about

24 10.15 and that was approximately the time when we were

25 having this discussion. He gave me a slip of paper with

Page 35

1 the name. I think it is part of the record --

2 MR. FILA: Just a moment. With your permission,

3 your Honours, I would like to present this slip of

4 paper, a copy has been submitted this morning, together

5 with the other documents, for identification purposes.

6 Then I would like to have it -- to offer it into

7 evidence. (Handed). Did he say what was the slip of

8 paper?

9 A. He told me to call the phone numbers that are listed

10 here and then I phoned these numbers and a woman

11 answered. I told her who I was and she put me through

12 to Mr. Hryshcyhshyn. I talked with Mr. Hryshcyhshyn for

13 about ten minutes. I told him what this was all about.

14 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn told me that he had spoken to Mr. Curtis

15 and that Mr. Curtis had relayed to him that I would like

16 to see Mr. Klein. I said that that was correct, and then

17 he told me that he had talked to Mr. Klein and that he

18 has been authorised by Mr. Klein to arrange a meeting

19 with me. I said that it was all right, but that the

20 meeting should take place in the territory of

21 Yugoslavia, since I did not feel safe in the territory

22 of Croatia.

23 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn told me that Mr. Klein proposed

24 that the meeting took place in Vukovar, since he had to

25 apply for a special permission to cross into Yugoslavia,

Page 36

1 so I said "all right, if that is the case, but then

2 I demand to be given assurances of safe conduct, both

3 there and back again into Yugoslavia", and

4 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn told me this is understood: "We

5 guarantee full safety to you both on the way there and

6 back; we will send a vehicle for you, a special vehicle

7 that is used by Mr. Klein. Everybody recognises that

8 vehicle and that vehicle is not stopped anywhere".

9 I said that that vehicle has to pick me up in the

10 territory of Yugoslavia -- I apologise, I am sorry,

11 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn also told me that he had a message for

12 me from Mr. Klein, that Mr. Klein would be very glad to

13 see me and that Mr. Klein has certain photographs from

14 the previous meetings to give to me.

15 Mr. Klein came to the territory controlled by

16 UNTAES at the moment, because we asked for it and I had

17 full trust in Mr. Klein, because he is the emperor, he is

18 the chief there and if I cannot trust Mr. Klein having

19 participated in all the meetings, how can the 150,000

20 people who live there trust him? So I did not suspect

21 anything, and after I concluded the conversation

22 Mr. Curtis asked me if everything was all right, and

23 I said, "we will see" and Mr. Curtis said, "do not worry,

24 you will have all the assurances and guarantees.

25 Everything will be all right". Then we concluded the

Page 37

1 conversation, because I had some guests who arrived at

2 the time. Mr. Curtis said that he would like to leave

3 and I took that to be a sign of his good manners and he

4 explained that he was leaving because of the guests so

5 to allow me ample time to be with my guests.

6 Q. Just a moment. When you asked for the guarantees, did

7 you seek guarantees for one specific State? Did you ask

8 guarantees not to be arrested by martians, Chinese,

9 Japanese?

10 A. No, I asked for guarantees of safe conduct to and back

11 to Yugoslavia.

12 Q. Yes, please continue.

13 A. As I said, he left at about 2.00 pm and we agreed to

14 meet again on Friday 27th June at 7.00 at the place, at

15 the house where I live, after my return from Vukovar.

16 Mr. Curtis knew at that time that I would not be coming

17 back from Vukovar, but that is another story.

18 Mr. Curtis left and at about 3.30 I had a phone

19 call from a person who said he was from UNTAES and he

20 asked me whether I needed a vehicle to come and fetch me

21 in Sombor. I said no, that I would be coming to the

22 bridge with my friends and that it was sufficient for

23 them to send the vehicle to the bridge. Then the next

24 day on Thursday, that was the 26th at about 7.00 pm,

25 I called Mr. Knezevic, who is from Baranja. He has had

Page 38

1 some experience, and he is a very well known and

2 respected person in this area and he is in a similar

3 situation as I am. I asked him to come to my place to

4 arrange something. After about 10 minutes, because we

5 live close by, Mr. Knezevic arrived. I was in the back

6 yard with a friend of mine, Mr. Purkovic. Mr. Knezevic

7 sat next to us, we talked for a while and then

8 I explained what this was about. I told him this

9 concerned the property of about 15,000 Serbs or maybe

10 even more, and that it also concerned our property, and

11 that both of us knew Mr. Klein and that I suggested that

12 I had actually arranged to meet Mr. Klein on Friday the

13 27th June, and I asked him to accompany me, because he

14 also knew Mr. Klein since he held an office while the

15 executive council of the area was in existence. He also

16 knows Baranja. Baranja is on one side and Srem is on

17 the other side. He was able to see the situation, to

18 analyse the situation. He was reluctant because there

19 was a list of about 150 people who are not covered by

20 amnesty from Croatia, and he asked me, I quote, "Slavko,

21 is it safe?" I said, "it is safe, Mr. Klein guarantees

22 our safety. If the two of us cannot trust Mr. Klein,

23 then who will trust him in this area?"

24 Then reluctantly, he probably had some

25 premonition, but he is a brave man, he agreed.

Page 39

1 Mr. Knezevic left soon after that, because he said he had

2 some unfinished business at home. We arranged that

3 I would pick him up tomorrow on Friday 27th at 2.15 pm,

4 because it was arranged that a UNTAES vehicle would be

5 waiting for us at the Yugoslav side at around 3.0 pm.

6 At 2.15, I came to pick up Mr. Knezevic. I honked

7 the horn. He was ready, he left the house, he entered

8 the vehicle and we set off towards the bridge, towards

9 the border. There is a camping area immediately in

10 front of the bridge and I had agreed with Mr. Purkovic,

11 who had attended our discussion when we arranged that

12 meeting, I asked him to accompany us to the border so as

13 to return the vehicle. I told him that we would pick

14 him up and that we would all go back on our way back.

15 Mr. Purkovic got into the vehicle and we started --

16 the distance is about 500 or 600 metres, this camping

17 area is about 600 metres away from the border. We

18 reached the border crossing, and then I noticed two

19 vehicles on my left, stationary vehicles and

20 I commented, I said "these guys are really precise".

21 I turned the vehicle at the exit towards the bridge,

22 that is about 20 metres away and I parked it there near

23 the bridge. Mr. Knezevic and myself got out of the car.

24 Mr. Purkovic sat at the steering wheel and drove the

25 vehicle back to his home.

Page 40

1 Mr. Knezevic and myself, we started walking towards

2 the parked vehicles. We greeted the men, I mean the

3 police and the customs officers, and we started walking

4 towards the vehicles. The vehicles were facing the

5 Croatian side. In the first vehicle that we passed by,

6 and these were two white Jeeps with large and clearly

7 visible UN insignia, in the first vehicle that escorted

8 us there were some soldiers, the windows were tinted,

9 but we could see the silhouettes, and in between those

10 two vehicles there was a man who was walking towards us

11 and he asked us whether we spoke English. We said who

12 we were, he asked whether we spoke English and we said

13 no and he put a badge on me, and as for Mr. Knezevic, he

14 had not been announced, so he did not get a badge.

15 Q. Could you please describe the badge? What was written

16 on it?

17 A. I do not remember what was written on the badge, but it

18 indicated that it was me. I cannot remember what was

19 written, I did not even look. But it was probably

20 something that I could use to identify myself if the

21 need arose. This gentleman who met us there, he

22 indicated that we should enter the vehicle and we did

23 so. This vehicle also had tinted windows. We started

24 moving at a pretty high speed and Mr. Knezevic commented

25 that the Danube was quite high. We crossed the bridge

Page 41

1 quite soon and the vehicle slowed down on the Croatian

2 side, on the checkpoint there, but we did not stop.

3 Then there is the road climbs up, but the vehicle

4 continued at a high speed.

5 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dokmanovic, did something happen with the

6 vehicle when you entered the vehicle, something with the

7 door?

8 A. The door locked. We could hear the click.

9 Q. Please continue.

10 A. To our left as you climb this slope, there is a gas

11 station that has been turned into a fortification, I do

12 not know what the purpose is of this building. It is a

13 UNTAES facility that is surrounded with sandbags. From

14 the other side, from the opposite direction, a truck

15 also bearing UN insignia started driving towards us and

16 since we were driving at high speed we almost crashed.

17 Our driver swerved sharply to the left towards the gas

18 station, and the vehicle tipped, I even thought that we

19 would tip over, and then the vehicle stopped suddenly.

20 A large number of soldiers ran towards us, they

21 wore masks on their faces and they had automatic rifles

22 pointed at us, automatic weapons I mean.

23 Q. Mr. Dokmanovic, what did you say at that time? We now

24 heard the description, please do not continue, because

25 this is confidential, but can you tell us what you said?

Page 42

1 A. Well that is what we saw. We did not see my first

2 reaction, because when they opened the door and started

3 to drag me and Mr. Knezevic out, I said, "this is a

4 mistake, we are going to meet Mr. Klein".

5 Q. This has not been recorded. Did you repeat that on

6 several occasions?

7 A. I must have repeated that two or three times. I asked

8 them to allow me to call Mr. Klein on the phone, but they

9 did not allow me that.

10 Q. Did you carry a gun, Mr. Dokmanovic? Do you have a

11 permit for that gun?

12 A. In the bag that was next to me on the floor there was a

13 pistol. This pistol was in the bag for a long time, and

14 the newspaper that is also in the bag can prove at what

15 time I placed this pistol in the bag. I do not carry

16 this bag with me all the time, I just took it with me so

17 that I can put my notebook in it. I have a permit.

18 Q. So in other words, the pistol was not -- you did not

19 carry the pistol on your person?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you endanger anyone with the pistol?

22 A. No, and I never fired this gun at all.

23 Q. Can you please describe the bridge? What does this

24 bridge look like, what part of the bridge is over the

25 river? Is there a part that is not over the river?

Page 43

1 Where were the vehicles parked, over land or over water,

2 and on whose territory?

3 A. The bridge is about 2 kilometres long, because the

4 Danube is about a kilometre wide at that point. It

5 depends, of course, on the level of water. At least

6 about 500 metres on the Yugoslav side is over land, over

7 swamp. It has been sanded over. On the left side there

8 is a camping area and on the right side there are

9 warehouses with silos which are over land, so this is

10 over land, not over water. The border before and now

11 runs along the middle of the Danube River.

12 Q. Is that the border between the Socialist Republic of

13 Croatia and Serbia in the time of the former Yugoslavia?

14 A. Yes, in this area, yes.

15 Q. Who is guarding the border, police or army?

16 A. Army.

17 Q. Is there a patrol, is there a sentry post?

18 A. Yes, there is a patrol and they patrol daily, and closer

19 to the Danube, I cannot tell you more precisely now how

20 far away from the police.

21 Q. In this area, there is a sentry post, sentry house.

22 Now, in relation to that sentry post where were the

23 vehicles?

24 A. On the Yugoslav side.

25 Q. Can you now say that they were between the area that is

Page 44

1 patrolled and the police post?

2 A. Yes, the soldiers were -- the army was closer to the

3 Croatian side, so they had crossed the border, so they

4 had crossed this area that is controlled by the army.

5 Q. Can I go back now for a moment? What was the reason why

6 you were no longer the President of the Municipal

7 Assembly after 5th October?

8 A. One of the reasons was that not everybody agreed with

9 the Erdut agreement that had been signed. There were

10 quite a few conflicts with regard to that, but there

11 were probably some other reasons too.

12 Q. Let us go back now to the most important thing. Why did

13 you go to Croatia? Let us repeat for the

14 umpteenth time, what were the guarantees that were given

15 to you, that you got guarantees not to be arrested by

16 Croats or by anyone?

17 A. I asked to be given safe conduct both to that area and

18 back to the territory of Yugoslavia.

19 Q. So it had nothing to do with who might endanger you?

20 A. Well, I was on the list of the Serbs who had not been

21 granted amnesty by the Croats, but there was this joint

22 police force there. I was not familiar with the

23 situation fully, but I asked for safe conduct there and

24 back to Yugoslavia, both for myself and for Mr. Knezevic.

25 MR. FILA: Thank you, your Honour. This is all I have.

Page 45

1 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Williamson, do you have

2 cross-examination?

3 Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

4 Q. Yes, your Honour. Mr. Dokmanovic, the last statement you

5 made is that you had asked for safe conduct to Vukovar

6 and back to Yugoslavia for you and Mr. Knezevic; is that

7 correct?

8 A. For myself. At the time Mr. Knezevic was not mentioned.

9 When I asked permit, I asked for one for myself.

10 Q. When did you ask for safe conduct for Mr. Knezevic?

11 A. I did not ask for safe conduct for Mr. Knezevic, as

12 I said. That goes without saying. I believe that since

13 I had one he would automatically have one, since he was

14 with me.

15 Q. So that was just a misstatement at the end of your

16 direct examination?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On 27th June you believed that you were going directly

19 to a meeting with General Klein and back; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Up until that time you trusted General Klein?

23 A. I trusted him.

24 Q. You had no reason to believe that he would be untruthful

25 with you?

Page 46

1 A. No.

2 Q. As you were on the way to this meeting, were you relaxed

3 about it, were you comfortable with going to see him?

4 A. I do not understand this question. I was going to a

5 meeting. I cannot really describe my state of mind at

6 the time.

7 Q. Did you have any anxiety about the meeting?

8 A. I do not understand the question.

9 Q. I think it is very straightforward. Were you anxious or

10 upset or anxious about this meeting in any way?

11 A. I certainly was not completely relaxed about it. It was

12 definitely something that was new and it was not a

13 simple situation, but I believed that things that I was

14 told would eventually be fulfilled.

15 Q. As you were crossing over the bridge, you indicated that

16 you and Mr. Knezevic talked about the Danube River being

17 high; is that correct?

18 A. It was something that Mr. Knezevic alone said, but maybe

19 I really do not remember whether I said, "yes, it is".

20 It is possible I confirmed that.

21 Q. Was there any other discussion between you and

22 Mr. Knezevic during the course of the trip?

23 A. I think not. I do not remember.

24 Q. But up until the point in time when you were actually

25 removed from the vehicle, you still believed you were

Page 47

1 going to a meeting with General Klein; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were shocked when you were taken out of the vehicle,

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You described General Klein as the emperor, as the chief

7 of the area, correct?

8 A. He was the chief administrator, i.e. the highest

9 authority in the area.

10 Q. Did you respect him in that position?

11 A. Well, he was doing the job and it was the duty of all to

12 respect what he was doing.

13 Q. Did you ever have any reason to fear him personally?

14 A. I cannot answer that question.

15 Q. Yes, or no: did you fear him?

16 A. Personally, no.

17 Q. This friend that you entrusted your car to, Mr. Purkovic,

18 he was a good friend of yours?

19 A. Well, he was quite a good friend.

20 Q. He is somebody that you trusted. You gave him the keys

21 to your car and let him drive your car off, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have nothing further, your Honour.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila?

25 Further re-examined by MR. FILA

Page 48

1 Q. Just as a point of clarification, according to him, how

2 much time passed from the moment when he entered the car

3 on the Serb side, on the bridge, until the moment when

4 he was pulled out of the car?

5 A. About five minutes.

6 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. Nothing further.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Williamson?

8 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have nothing further, your Honour.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Just one question. Mr. Dokmanovic, as I

10 understand it, you wanted to discuss issues involving

11 property that belonged to Serbs in Eastern Slavonija.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were told that in order to discuss those issues you

14 had to go to Eastern Slavonija; is that correct?

15 A. No, but I was told that there would be a meeting with

16 Mr. Klein in Vukovar in Eastern Slavonija, since General

17 Klein would require a special permit to cross into

18 Yugoslavia. I do not know if that is correct or not.

19 I was told that I was guaranteed safe conduct, and that

20 is something I have described.

21 Q. Was it your understanding that you could discuss these

22 property issues in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

23 with Mr. Klein?

24 A. I do not understand. What was I to understand? I just

25 do not understand the question. Could we talk in

Page 49

1 another place? But the meeting had been arranged for

2 Vukovar.

3 Q. But you wanted to go, as I understand it, to meet with

4 Mr. Klein to discuss the resolution of these property

5 issues that related to Serb property, I gather, in

6 Croatia; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, to talk about solutions to how to resolve

8 compensation for property for Serbs who cannot, or do

9 not wish to live in the territory of Croatia.

10 Q. Did you make this request to meet with whoever had

11 authority to discussion these issues, or did someone

12 else make the request?

13 A. I requested that through Mr. Curtis; or rather Mr. Curtis

14 said that that was the responsibility of UNTAES and not

15 the Tribunal. I described this conversation, and that

16 he would try to organise this meeting.

17 Q. That was acceptable with you, I gather?

18 A. These were people coming from institutions that are

19 respected. I never doubted the words of the people who

20 promised me this.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, do you have additional questions?

22 Further re-examined by MR. FILA

23 Q. No, but again just to clarify, were you supposed about

24 your private property and the property of Mr. Knezevic,

25 because that is what you said.

Page 50

1 A. Among other things, our private properties as well.

2 MR. FILA: That would be all. Your Honour, I have no further

3 witnesses, but --

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Let me see if Mr. Williamson has any

5 questions.

6 Further cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMSON

7 Q. Your Honour, I just have a couple of questions.

8 Mr. Dokmanovic, you indicated that you received

9 information that General Klein could not come to Serbia

10 because he needed some type of special permit; is that

11 correct?

12 A. That is what Mr. Hryshcyhshyn said.

13 Q. Do you recall exactly what he said in that regard?

14 A. He told me that Mr. Klein was proposing a meeting in

15 Vukovar since in order to cross into Yugoslavia he

16 required a permit. He did not indicate a permit from

17 whom and I did not ask.

18 MR. WILLIAMSON: I do not have anything further, your

19 Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila?

21 MR. FILA: In the evidence package that I had submitted,

22 there are also the ID card, copy of the passport and all

23 other relevant documents, including this slip, the note

24 that Mr. Hryshcyhshyn gave, so would you like me to read

25 it or should I just leave it for you to read later.

Page 51

1 JUDGE McDONALD: We may have to admit those. Just one

2 question: Mr. Dokmanovic, did you understand that

3 Mr. Klein had authority to discuss these property issues

4 that you were concerned about?

5 A. That is the explanation that Mr. Curtis gave to me. This

6 is the responsibility of UNTAES and I would try to

7 arrange a meeting with UNTAES to discuss this. When

8 I told so to Mr. Hryshcyhshyn in a telephone

9 conversation, he answered with, "a good question". Upon

10 his return from New York, Mr. Klein would stop to visit

11 Mr. Tudjman and then he would have the right information

12 to relay to me.

13 Q. As far as you knew then if you wanted to discuss these

14 property issues with Mr. Klein you had to go to Croatia;

15 is that correct?

16 A. I went to the territories controlled by UNTAES. That is

17 the territory that belonged to Croatia but it is

18 controlled by UNTAES.

19 Q. As far as you knew if you wanted to discuss these

20 property issues with Mr. Klein, you had to go then to

21 Eastern Slavonija?

22 A. That is what Mr. Hryshcyhshyn suggested, that we talk in

23 Vukovar or rather that that was the suggestion of

24 Mr. Klein which was relayed to me by Mr. Hryshcyhshyn.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay, fine thank you. Do you wish to offer

Page 52

1 Defence Exhibit 2, that is the piece of paper, Mr. Fila,

2 that Mr. Dokmanovic identified? Any objection,

3 Mr. Williamson?

4 MR. WILLIAMSON: No objection, your Honour.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Defence Exhibit 2 will be admitted.

6 Mr. Fila, do you need Mr. Dokmanovic now to offer the

7 additional exhibits that you want to offer for this

8 hearing?

9 MR. FILA: No, thank you. The evidence is contained in the

10 package. I do not need it, the family needs it. No,

11 this was a joke. This evidence is something you need.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay, very good. Mr. Dokmanovic, you may

13 return to your seat. Thank you.

14 A. Thank you.

15 (The witness withdrew)

16 JUDGE McDONALD: What exhibits do you wish to offer,

17 Mr. Fila? We will mark them beginning I suppose with

18 Defence 3?

19 MR. FILA: My colleague Jelena will be speaking since this is

20 in English so it is easier for her.

21 MS. LOPICIC: I gave you all the documents in the bag.

22 I would like to explain. The first document is passport

23 of Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Is that one exhibit?

25 MS. LOPICIC: Yes. That would be exhibit number 3.

Page 53

1 JUDGE McDONALD: What is your next one?

2 MS. LOPICIC: The next one is firearm permit of Mr. Slavko

3 Dokmanovic that shows that he had also a permit at the

4 time he was illegally arrested.

5 The third item is identification card, personal

6 card of Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, that was issued on July

7 22nd 1996 by Vukovar Municipality.

8 The next item is --


10 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Dokmanovic, can you hear me? Mr. Fila?

11 Mr. Fila, you will have to put your earphones on,

12 I suppose. If Mr. Dokmanovic wishes to say anything he

13 should motion you, rather than speaking out loud, so

14 Mr. Dokmanovic, if you wish to say anything to counsel,

15 just motion him, I look at you. There is a guard

16 sitting next to you and will give your counsel an

17 opportunity to approach you and discuss anything.

18 Please do not exclaim out loud.

19 Defence 5 was -- you had identified that as the

20 identification card for Mr. Dokmanovic, that was when he

21 said no, I think.

22 MS. LOPICIC: I am sorry, it is made in Sombor but

23 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the stamp is

24 of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. One

25 moment, I would like to explain that to Mr. Dokmanovic,

Page 54

1 I am sorry. It was a mistake, it was not issued in

2 Vukovar, I am sorry. The next item is employment card of

3 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic. I also have the original one, the

4 original card. On page 8, it is important for the

5 Defence, we can see that he worked in Vukovar until

6 October 5th 1996, so that is four months after the

7 warrant of arrest was issued, and given to UNTAES in

8 Croatia.

9 Next item is certificate from Ministry of Internal

10 Affairs of Serbia, where it says that he has a residency

11 in Vojvodjanska Street 35 from July 22nd 1996.

12 JUDGE JAN: I beg your pardon? From where, residence?

13 MS. LOPICIC: That Slavko Dokmanovic has residence in

14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in Vojvodjanska Street in

15 Sombor from July 22nd 1996.

16 JUDGE JAN: The one issued in Vukovar until 5th October?

17 You said he was employed in Vukovar until 5th October.

18 There is a lag of three months.

19 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, but he travelled every day because he

20 was employed until 1996, we have a document, until 1996,

21 October 5th, but his wife moved to Sombor on July 22nd.

22 Shall I go on?

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes. That is 7, I think.

24 MS. LOPICIC: The question is question relating to the case

25 of Adolf Eichman, that is in English language, issued by

Page 55

1 security council. This is the a digs. It is one page,

2 on the left is English, on the right is French version.

3 Then next item is convention on terrorism, on

4 taking hostages, in English language, but first page of

5 the document is in Serbo-Croatian, it is certification

6 of this document, and as you can see, at the bottom, on

7 the left side is English and on the right side is in

8 Serbo-Croatian language. The Defence is interested in

9 the article number 14, on page 355.

10 The next item is the Croatian for public and

11 media, considering his arrest, Mr. Dokmanovic's arrest.

12 The next item is a small piece of paper, as we

13 already heard about the paper, the yellow paper, small

14 paper.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Is that the same at Defence 2?

16 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, that Mr. Kevin Curtis gave to

17 Mr. Dokmanovic.

18 The next item is reaction on the arrest of

19 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: This is entitled "Association of Combats of

21 Fatherlands Wars, Eastern Slavonija, subject protest",

22 because of the arrest.

23 MS. LOPICIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: This is signed "Milan Ivankovic, June

25 30th". Who or what is the association?

Page 56

1 MS. LOPICIC: This is the President, Milan Ivankovic, in

2 Vukovar, this is located in the Vukovar association, and

3 it was also forwarded to UNTAES, to Mr. Klein, to a

4 Tribunal, to Mr. Mihov, to other organisations you can

5 see also, and this is the association of all the wars,

6 not just this one but also Second World War and First

7 World War.

8 JUDGE JAN: It is a non-governmental organisation?

9 MS. LOPICIC: Yes. Next item is documents from Vukovar

10 Hospital where Mr. Dokmanovic was treated after a traffic

11 accident. Since Mr. Dokmanovic had a traffic accident on

12 16th June 1996, as we can see, he was taken in the

13 hospital and treated for four days, until 20th May --

14 sorry, from 16th May to 20th May 1996, as we can see

15 from the document. 16th May to 20th May 1996.

16 The next item is not listed, that is a warrant of

17 arrest order for surrounding that we received from the

18 Tribunal Prosecutor's office. There is a difference

19 between the English and Serbian version. On the English

20 version, in paragraph 4 it says:

21 "Hereby directs the United Nations Transitional

22 Administration for Eastern Slavonija to search for

23 arrest and surrender to the International Criminal

24 Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia."

25 So it stated that UNTAES should receive this. In

Page 57

1 the Yugoslavian version, Serbo-Croatian, it says [reads

2 document in Serbo-Croatian - not interpreted].

3 Also on the second page in paragraph 3 is also

4 stated on the English version "UNTAES" and in

5 Serbo-Croatian language in the third paragraph in that

6 version, Croatia, Republic of Croatia. When he was

7 illegally arrested on 27th June 1997 he received the

8 Serbo-Croatian version which stated Republic of Croatia.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Tell me this again now. This would be

10 I think Defence 14, is it?


12 JUDGE McDONALD: What paragraph do I look at?

13 MS. LOPICIC: On page 1, warrant of arrest in English

14 version.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: The English, that I can read. It says:

16 "Hereby direct the United Nations Transitional

17 Administration for Eastern Slavonija to search for

18 arrest and surrender to the International Criminal

19 Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia."

20 In the Serbian?

21 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, the last paragraph from the bottom on

22 the first page.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes. First page on the Serbo-Croatian

24 version, last paragraph from the bottom.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: The very first page?

Page 58


2 JUDGE McDONALD: Where it says N-A-L-A-Z-E-M?


4 JUDGE McDONALD: That says what now?

5 MS. LOPICIC: It says Republic of Croatia should -- same

6 thing, should search for the arrest and surrender of

7 Mr. Dokmanovic. It does not say the name but I am just

8 saying what it is, to the International Criminal

9 Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. Instead of UNTAES,

10 it says Republic of Croatia.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: R-E-P-U-B-L-I-K-E and then H-R-V-T-S-K-E?

12 MS. LOPICIC: That is correct.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Will you be saying that in the

14 Serbo-Croatian warrant, there is no mention that the --

15 there is no mention directing the United Nations

16 Transitional Administration to search and arrest for

17 Mr. Dokmanovic?

18 MS. LOPICIC: That is correct. Also there is on the second

19 page of Serbo-Croatian document --

20 JUDGE McDONALD: They seem to be dated differently. Are

21 they dated the same day? Are both of them April

22 3rd 1996?

23 MS. LOPICIC: Yes.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me a minute. (Pause).

25 MS. LOPICIC: Your Honour, I would like to say by the book

Page 59

1 also, by the law --

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me just one moment. (Pause). Yes,

3 Miss Lopicic?

4 MS. LOPICIC: Yes, I would like to add first that on the

5 second page also on the Serbo-Croatian version it is

6 also stated in the fourth and fifth paragraph from the

7 top "Republic of Croatia", instead of -- three times, so

8 on the first page once, on the second page twice, it

9 says "Republic of Croatia" and in the English version it

10 says "UNTAES". So it cannot be one error, it is three

11 errors. So the arrest also happened illegally by

12 occasion and also illegally considering the statute and

13 procedures of the Tribunal, because Mr. Dokmanovic

14 received only the Serbo-Croatian version. He does not

15 speak English. We do not think it is only one error, it

16 is three times. So when the person is translating,

17 three times is more than once, so it is not by accident,

18 the translation.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: I have conferred with representatives from

20 the Registry and I expect that this afternoon we will

21 hear from them regarding this, to explain this, because

22 this is a matter that is handled by the Registry, but

23 this is your Exhibit 13.

24 MS. LOPICIC: Next item, exhibit, is notification to the

25 representative of United Nations Transitional

Page 60

1 Administration for Eastern Slavonija, that was dated

2 July 17th 1996, that makes three months after the

3 warrant was issued, this paper. So the Defence would

4 like to propose a question: how come three months after

5 the -- three and a half months passed, then the

6 representative of UNTAES received the warrant of

7 arrest. Since we live in the 20th century, where there

8 are computers and faxes and posts and other ways of

9 means of transportation at present, because the warrant

10 of arrest was issued on April 3rd 1996 and Mr. Slavko

11 Dokmanovic was the President of municipality Vukovar

12 until April 5th, so two more days after the warrant of

13 arrest. UNTAES could have arrested him at that time

14 while he was present in Vukovar. Everybody would miss

15 the illegal arrest -- it would not happen, an illegal

16 arrest.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: You have additional exhibits you wish to

18 offer for this hearing?

19 MS. LOPICIC: No, your Honour.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Williamson, do you have any objection to

21 the admission of these exhibits, that is Defence 3

22 through 10 -- actually 3 through 14, excuse me, what was

23 originally identified as 2 was the same -- originally

24 identified as 11 was the same exhibit as 2, so that will

25 not be admitted again, so that is 3 through 14.

Page 61

1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, we have not seen any of these

2 exhibits, so we would like a chance to examine them

3 before we take a position.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: You can review them then over the lunch

5 recess, and then advise me of your position. I have

6 just one question of Mr. Dokmanovic, and I forgot to ask

7 it. That has to do with his ancestry. I wanted to ask

8 Mr. Dokmanovic, is he of Serbian decent? Mr. Fila, may

9 I ask Mr. Dokmanovic that question? He can remain where

10 he is seated.

11 Mr. Dokmanovic, are you of Serbian decent?

12 MR. DOKMANOVIC: Yes, I am a Serb.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Are there additional questions

14 now from the Defence or from Prosecution?

15 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, your Honour.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: That concludes the submissions of the

17 Defence, except for these exhibits which we will rule on

18 after the Prosecution looks at them over the noon

19 recess. Mr. Williamson, would you like to proceed with

20 the case for the Prosecution on this motion?

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I will be taking the case for the

22 Prosecution. I call Kevin Curtis.

23 MR. KEVIN CURTIS (sworn)

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Mr. Curtis, you may be seated.

25 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

Page 62

1 Q. Would you state your full name, please?

2 A. Kevin Curtis.

3 Q. Your date of birth?

4 A. 13/2/53.

5 Q. What is your former occupation before commencing work

6 with the Tribunal?

7 A. A Detective Sergeant with Warwickshire constabulary in

8 England.

9 Q. How long have you been with the Tribunal?

10 A. Since April 1995.

11 Q. What is your position here?

12 A. Investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor.

13 Q. In connection with your duties, have you had occasion to

14 become involved in, among other, the Vukovar

15 investigation?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. Have you met and do you know the accused in this matter,

18 Mr. Dokmanovic?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. When did you first become involved in discussions with

21 Mr. Dokmanovic?

22 A. As a result of a conversation that he had with our

23 Belgrade office in December of last year, I contacted

24 him in January of this year.

25 Q. Where did you contact him?

Page 63

1 A. At his home address on the telephone number that he

2 supplied to us.

3 Q. Can you recall now as best you can the conversation you

4 had with him on that occasion?

5 A. The gist of the conversation was that I understood that

6 he had contacted our Belgrade office wishing to give

7 evidence of atrocities committed by the Croats against

8 Serbs in Vukovar. I suggested that we may get together

9 and have a meeting.

10 Q. What did he say to you?

11 A. He was in agreement of that. I suggested that because

12 I was in the area that Vukovar might be a good place for

13 us to meet.

14 Q. Just for the benefit of the court, where is Vukovar?

15 A. In the UNTAES region in Eastern Slavonija, Croatia.

16 Q. When you said Vukovar, what did he say to you?

17 A. He said that he was not able to go to Vukovar for

18 personal reasons, although he had nothing against the

19 Tribunal, and nothing against UNTAES.

20 Q. Once he told you this, what did you say to him?

21 A. I suggested that we would meet in other places, maybe

22 different countries, and then suggested the Baranja

23 region of Croatia.

24 Q. Where is the Baranja region?

25 A. It is still within the UNTAES region, and it is near to

Page 64

1 Vukovar.

2 Q. What did he say to you in response to this suggestion?

3 A. He said that maybe we could meet in Beli Manastir.

4 Q. Where is Beli Manastir?

5 A. It is in Baranja, near to Vukovar or not too far away

6 from Vukovar.

7 Q. What did you do then as a consequence of this?

8 A. I said I would have to make certain arrangements for a

9 place to meet in Beli Manastir. I would do so and

10 contact him at 1.00 pm the following day.

11 Q. Did you then contact him on the next day?

12 A. We tried all afternoon to make contact with

13 Mr. Dokmanovic, although there was no reply at his home

14 address until about 5.00 pm that evening.

15 Q. When you made contact with him by the telephone, what

16 did you discuss with him?

17 A. I discussed that I had made arrangements at a certain

18 hotel in Beli Manastir and the fact that I could meet

19 him at the date that we discussed, which was the

20 following week, I cannot remember now exactly the date

21 and time.

22 Q. What did he say to you?

23 A. He had a very strange change of heart and said that he

24 could not cross the river and he was not prepared to

25 meet me anywhere within the UNTAES region.

Page 65

1 Q. So as a consequence of that, what did you say to him?

2 A. I am sorry, I just forgot, he said why could I not go to

3 Sombor, his home address, which is in the Federal

4 Republic of Yugoslavia and I explained I could not go

5 there at that time because of all the unrest that was in

6 Belgrade. I said I would have to get back to The Hague

7 and make some enquiries and I would then get back to him

8 by telephone.

9 Q. Did you then agree to contact him at a later time?

10 A. Yes, I did and I made contact with him on a couple of

11 occasions, saying that I was still working on where we

12 could actually meet.

13 Q. Over how long a period did these conversations take

14 place with him?

15 A. Until I finally made contact with him in June and we

16 agreed a time and place that we would meet.

17 Q. When you contacted him in June, that is June 1997?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. When you contacted him in June, did you agree a time and

20 place to meet him?

21 A. We agreed to meet at his home address in Sombor on

22 24th June at 10.00 am.

23 Q. At this time, did you know whether or not an indictment

24 had been issued against Mr. Dokmanovic?

25 A. Yes, from the first conversation I had with him I was

Page 66

1 aware that there was a seal on the indictment.

2 Q. Then did you proceed to meet him on 24th June?

3 A. Yes, Mr. Dokmanovic in the conversation we had on the

4 telephone gave me his home address and directions to the

5 address and I met him there at 10.00 am on the day that

6 we agreed.

7 Q. That is 24th June?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell the court what happened on that particular

10 day when you went to his home on 24th June?

11 A. Yes. When I got there, as far as I was aware, there was

12 only Mr. Dokmanovic present in the house. I was greeted

13 at the gate by him and after formal introductions we

14 started to continue with the interview, about the

15 matters that he wanted to tell me.

16 Q. Did you have any intentions with respect to

17 Mr. Dokmanovic when you went to see him on that occasion?

18 A. Yes, my intention was that I should gain his confidence

19 and get him into an area of the UNTAES region where we

20 could effect arrest.

21 Q. How long did you have discussions with Mr. Dokmanovic on

22 this day, 24th June 1997?

23 A. I think for about six hours.

24 Q. After your six hour interview with him, what happened

25 then?

Page 67

1 A. Whilst I was packing up my things to leave, because

2 I felt that there were certain things I had to do as

3 a result of the interview with him, he broached the

4 subject -- he asked me if I could give him some advice

5 with regard to property that he owned that was in the

6 area of Trpinja in the region of Vukovar.

7 Q. Trpinja, is that in the UNTAES region?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. What did he say to you?

10 A. He said did I know whether or not the Croatian

11 authorities, who were then taking over the area where

12 UNTAES were, were likely to give him compensation or buy

13 his property from him.

14 Q. What did you say to him?

15 A. I said that I could not answer that question, I was not

16 aware of any arrangements that had been made with regard

17 to those matters, and then I said, "from the position

18 you were in in Vukovar, were you not able to contact

19 General Klein?"

20 Q. What did he say to you?

21 A. He said that having met with General Klein, because

22 Mr. Dokmanovic used to be the mayor of Vukovar, he used

23 to meet with General Klein on a daily basis, but now he

24 could not even telephone him.

25 Q. Did you say anything to him when he said this?

Page 68

1 A. I asked him had he tried to phone General Klein and he

2 said no. I seized that opportunity for saying that

3 I may be able to help in that respect and that I would

4 go to General Klein's office that afternoon and try and

5 make arrangements for him to meet with General Klein.

6 Q. What did he say to you when you told him this, that you

7 would do this?

8 A. He was a bit wary, because he said that he was aware

9 that he was indicted by the Croatian authorities as a

10 war criminal, and that he was concerned about coming

11 into contact with the Croatian police or the Croatian

12 authorities when he crossed the border.

13 Q. What did you say to him in response to that?

14 A. I said that when I spoke to General Klein's office,

15 I would point that factor out and see what they could

16 do.

17 Q. Did you say anything else to him about that, other than

18 that?

19 A. I was not really in a position to say anything else

20 other than that, because it was then down to

21 negotiations with General Klein's office.

22 Q. What did you then do?

23 A. I left Mr. Dokmanovic's home address and I went back to

24 Vukovar where the UNTAES headquarters were, and I then

25 made contact with other members of the Office of the

Page 69

1 Prosecutor and with UNTAES staff.

2 Q. As a result of the meetings with the Office of the

3 Prosecutor and UNTAES staff, what was decided?

4 A. Mr. Dokmanovic had asked particularly about his personal

5 property in Trpinja. I thought that it was probably a

6 good idea that we actually broached the subject with

7 Mr. Dokmanovic along the lines that he would be asking

8 about also property in Croatia, which might encourage

9 him to go to a meeting also.

10 Q. Did you then convey this to Mr. Dokmanovic?

11 A. What happened was that during the meetings that

12 afternoon with members of UNTAES, we made arrangements

13 that I had already previously agreed to go back and see

14 Mr. Dokmanovic on 25th, the following day, and we agreed

15 that I would give Mr. Dokmanovic a piece of paper with

16 the name of Michael Hryshcyhshyn, who was one of General

17 Klein's staff. We arranged that Mr. Dokmanovic would

18 ring or I would ask him to ring Michael Hryshcyhshyn at

19 10.15 the following morning.

20 Q. Can you describe the piece of paper?

21 A. It was a yellow post-it, the larger, the one size up

22 from this one (indicates).

23 Q. Perhaps the witness might be shown Defence Exhibit 2.

24 (Handed). Could you just look at that paper? Are you

25 able to tell me, Mr. Curtis, whether you recognise this?

Page 70

1 A. Yes, that is the piece of paper that I handed to

2 Mr. Dokmanovic.

3 Q. What happened then?

4 A. We fine-tuned the way that we expected things to go when

5 I got back to see Mr. Dokmanovic the following day.

6 I arrived at his home address at 10.05 the next morning,

7 and once we arrived we went through the normal

8 greetings. Mr. Dokmanovic made coffee. I said that

9 I had some news for him, and explained that there was --

10 Michael Hryshcyhshyn was awaiting his telephone call at

11 10.15.

12 Q. Did you do anything with that piece of paper Defence

13 Exhibit 2?

14 A. I gave it to Mr. Dokmanovic when he brought the coffee

15 into the room and then he went and got the phone from

16 another room and plugged it in in the lounge where I was

17 sitting.

18 Q. Apart from yourself and Mr. Dokmanovic, who else was in

19 the room at the time?

20 A. My interpreter.

21 Q. Was there anybody else?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What happened then?

24 A. 10.20 came along and Mr. Dokmanovic had not made the

25 phone call, so I suggested to him, "do you want to start

Page 71

1 with the interview or do you want to make the phone call

2 first?" He said, "well, I have nothing to lose by making

3 the phone call", so he then made the phone call.

4 Q. Were you there during the course of the telephone call?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. Was that telephone call translated in your presence?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How long did the telephone call go for?

9 A. It is difficult to say really, I would think no more

10 than five minutes, I would think. I cannot say exactly.

11 Q. Did he appear to be having a conversation?

12 A. He did, yes.

13 Q. Was he having a conversation in the Serbian language?

14 A. Yes, I would say so.

15 Q. You do not speak Serbian?

16 A. No, I do not.

17 Q. After the conversation was finished, did Mr. Dokmanovic

18 say anything to you?

19 A. Yes, he seemed to be quite buoyant during the

20 conversation, his demeanour was quite happy. After the

21 conversation he turned to me, smiled, held his hand out

22 and said "thank you" in English. We discussed the phone

23 call no more at that time.

24 Q. Then what happened for the rest of the day?

25 A. I continued with the interview that I had started the

Page 72

1 previous day.

2 Q. Did you then conclude that interview?

3 A. Yes. At the conclusion of the interview I said to

4 Mr. Dokmanovic that I would need to see him again to

5 complete the read back and the signatures on the

6 interview, and suggested that Friday afternoon might be

7 a good time.

8 Q. Did you know anything at that time about Friday

9 afternoon?

10 A. I was aware that the original plan was that a meeting

11 would be arranged -- the plans for the meeting with

12 General Klein would be arranged for 3.00 on the Friday

13 afternoon.

14 Q. But nevertheless you suggested Friday afternoon as the

15 time to meet him in Sombor, is that right?

16 A. I suggested that time, yes.

17 Q. What did he say to you?

18 A. He said, "That is the time that I have a meeting with

19 General Klein", so I said, "Well, maybe I could see you

20 at 7.00 on the Friday evening when you have finished

21 with General Klein".

22 Q. What did you then do?

23 A. I then left Mr. Dokmanovic's house and went back again to

24 Vukovar to the UNTAES headquarters where we debriefed my

25 side of events, together with the events that had

Page 73

1 occurred in Vukovar with the telephone call.

2 Q. What was then done?

3 A. The rest of the plans were made, basically to effect the

4 arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic once in UNTAES territory, on the

5 Friday.

6 Q. In the two meetings that you had had with be

7 Mr. Dokmanovic, did he at any stage seek assurances from

8 you about not being arrested, et cetera?

9 A. The only assurances that he asked were -- or that he

10 expressed interest in was the fact that he did not come

11 into contact with any Croatian police or authorities.

12 Q. What did you say to him about that?

13 A. As I say, I just mentioned to him that I would tell

14 UNTAES that when making the arrangements for any

15 subsequent meeting that they held.

16 Q. On Friday 27th June, what were you doing on that day?

17 A. Because the meeting with Mr. Dokmanovic had been arranged

18 for 3.00, a while before that I, with other members of

19 the Office of the Prosecutor, went to a UN compound

20 situated in Erdut, which is again in the UNTAES region.

21 Q. What did you do when you got to that place?

22 A. At approximately 2.45, the three vehicle convoy that was

23 going to pick up Mr. Dokmanovic from the border left and

24 I went and positioned myself out of any possible sight

25 of Mr. Dokmanovic at that stage in a vehicle further

Page 74

1 along in the compound.

2 Q. What happened then?

3 A. I cannot remember the times exactly, but about 3.00, the

4 I saw the first vehicle of the convoy that had left to

5 pick up Mr. Dokmanovic arrive in the compound, followed

6 shortly afterwards by a second vehicle, which was a GMC

7 vehicle with black tinted windscreen.

8 Q. When you saw the GMC vehicle come in, what happened

9 then?

10 A. Very quickly a number of armed men with their faces

11 covered surrounded the vehicle and the door -- the

12 passenger door in the rear of the vehicle, where

13 Mr. Dokmanovic was, was opened and Mr. Dokmanovic was

14 taken out of the vehicle and then moved over to my left,

15 which is the same side as the door was, near to a

16 portacabin.

17 Q. When he was taken there, what happened then?

18 A. I do not recall whether he was handcuffed first or

19 handcuffed afterwards, but he was certainly searched by

20 the officers that were dealing with him.

21 Q. Briefly, can you tell us what then happened following

22 that?

23 A. One of my colleagues came to me in the vehicle and

24 brought me what was clearly the jacket that

25 Mr. Dokmanovic had had with him when he was taken out of

Page 75

1 the vehicle, and also a brown gentleman's handbag which

2 I was told he had been -- was his property.

3 Q. Did you search the handbag, the gentleman's handbag at

4 that stage?

5 A. At that stage, no, I did not because normal procedure

6 I would adopt is that I would take possession of both

7 items of property and then it would be searched when it

8 got to the prison.

9 Q. What happened then?

10 A. Although I could not hear it, I was aware that a

11 colleague and an interpreter were reading him his

12 rights.

13 Q. After his rights had been read, what happened?

14 A. The convoy, including the vehicle that I was in, then

15 moved off to Cerpin airport.

16 Q. At Cerpin airport, what happened then?

17 A. Mr. Dokmanovic was examined by a medical officer,

18 military medical officer. Whilst that was happening

19 I went on to the plane that was awaiting to take us to

20 The Hague and decided who would sit where on the

21 journey.

22 Q. Did you then proceed to The Hague?

23 A. Yes, after the medical we all got on the plane and came

24 straight to The Hague where Mr. Dokmanovic was met by

25 Dutch police officers who took him to Scheveningen

Page 76

1 Prison.

2 Q. What was your involvement in the matter after that?

3 A. I had no involvement, apart from at the prison

4 I searched the property of Mr. Dokmanovic in the view of

5 the prison officers.

6 Q. When you say you searched the property, what did you

7 search?

8 A. The jacket, his jacket and also the gentleman's handbag.

9 Q. What did you discover as a consequence of your search?

10 A. There was a wallet and some miscellaneous paper in his

11 jacket. In the gentleman's handbag, there were a number

12 of items of paper, two plastic bags and a loaded 0.357

13 Magnum Zastava hand pistol.

14 Q. Did you examine the hand pistol?

15 A. I did that, I am not experienced with firearms, so I did

16 that together with one of the firearms experts at the

17 prison.

18 Q. As a consequence of that examination what did you

19 discover in relation to the pistol?

20 A. That there were six rounds in the Chamber and that it

21 was a Yugoslav pistol.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: We will stand in recess until 2.30. We

24 will be able to complete this matter today. You just

25 have two additional witnesses; is that correct?

Page 77

1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. They are very short.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

3 (1.00 pm)

4 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)






















Page 78

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I had completed my evidence-in-chief with

4 this witness, your Honour.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: We need Mr. Curtis, I think.

6 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, before we begin, we have had a

7 chance to review the Defence exhibits that were tendered

8 earlier this morning. We have objection to two items

9 that are contained in the packet, the documents that

10 have been marked D10, which is labelled as the

11 declaration for public and media D11, which has been

12 labelled as the reaction on the arrestment of Mr. Slavko

13 Dokmanovic. Our objection is to the relevance of

14 these. We have no objection to the other items being

15 tendered.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Miss Lopicic, what is your response to D10

17 and Defence Exhibit 11? The Prosecution says it is not

18 relevant, they are not relevant.

19 MS. LOPICIC: I would like to state that both of these

20 items I made after the illegal arrest that happened on

21 27th June 1997. These are actually the statements of

22 various associations, what they think about the

23 arrestment of Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic that happened

24 27th June. This is very important for the Defence and

25 for you, your Honour, to see whether the reactions in

Page 79

1 Vukovar and in also Croatia and in Yugoslavia.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: But the Tribunal is not concerned with what

3 may be the public reaction. Friday there was mention

4 made by Mr. Fila of the Prosecutor -- Mr. Fila, you and

5 I cannot talk at the same time, it is impossible.

6 Friday there was reference made to the

7 Prosecutor's statement that she had made about the

8 arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic and our position would be the

9 same, that is the Prosecutor's press release or

10 conversation with the press. That certainly has no

11 relevance to these proceedings. The issue we are

12 concerned with is whether or not the arrest of

13 Mr. Dokmanovic was legal, whether it violated his

14 rights. Those are legal issues that are decided based

15 upon the evidence received during this hearing and not

16 what a group of lay persons or even a group of other

17 authorities may consider was illegality. That is not a

18 statement, I gather, from Croatia, nor is it a statement

19 from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; that is that

20 does not constitute any protests, potential protests of

21 their sovereignty which may or may not be one of the

22 issues that we may be concerned with.

23 MS. LOPICIC: I would like to add that in the interests of

24 anybody, especially the Defence, that Serbs who live in

25 the region of Vukovar that is controlled by UNTAES will

Page 80

1 remain to live in that area but since 27th June when the

2 illegal arrest happened, more than 15,000 Serbs left

3 Vukovar region. This is important to all of us that

4 Serbs who live in that region should stay in that

5 region, not to leave and be refugees in other parts of

6 former Yugoslavia or other parts of the world. This is

7 connected to this statement.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Williamson, let me hear from you.

9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would object --

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Have you finished, Miss Lopicic?

11 MS. LOPICIC: No, I would like to add one more sentence.

12 I would say that also Mr. Milutinovic protested against

13 this arrestment.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: He is whom?

15 MS. LOPICIC: He is Minister of Foreign Affairs of Federal

16 Republic of Yugoslavia and also a lawyer.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you.

18 MS. LOPICIC: You have that document.

19 MR. WILLIAMSON: The statement from Mr. Milutinovic is not

20 contained in either item D10 or D11. I would take issue

21 with the characterisation that 15,000 people have left

22 the region due to the arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic. No

23 evidence has been offered in support of that

24 contention. I think that there is nothing to support

25 such a claim.

Page 81

1 JUDGE McDONALD: I will sustain the objection of the

2 Prosecution, Defence exhibits -- excuse me a minute?

3 (Pause). I will sustain the objection with respect to

4 Defence exhibit 10 that has been marked for

5 identification purposes and Exhibit 11. They will not

6 be admitted. Is there anything else? Okay, bring in

7 Mr. Curtis, please. You do have cross-examination, do

8 you, of Mr. Curtis, Mr. Fila, Miss Lopicic?

9 (Witness entered court)

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes, Mr. Fila, you may continue.

11 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

12 Q. Mr. Curtis, my name is Toma Fila, I am Defence counsel

13 for Mr. Dokmanovic. I would like to ask you several

14 things. Do you know where the border line between

15 Croatia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is in

16 respect to the bridge?

17 A. I know where the border crossing is on the Serbian side,

18 I know where the border crossing is on the Croatian

19 side.

20 Q. Do you know that Sombor is on the territory of the

21 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and not on the territory

22 of UNTAES?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. So you think that Sombor where Slavko Dokmanovic lived

25 is in the UNTAES territory? When you went to see him,

Page 82

1 you had coffee with him and you stayed in his house, met

2 his wife. Is that UNTAES territory?

3 A. Sorry, when I said Sombor, I thought you said something

4 else. Yes, I knew Sombor was in the Federal Republic of

5 Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Sombor.

7 A. Sombor, yes.

8 Q. Is that the area of responsibility of UNTAES?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you work for the Belgrade office of The Hague

11 Tribunal or the Zagreb or the Bosnian one, which one?

12 A. I work for the Office of the Prosecutor for the

13 Tribunal.

14 Q. You are not linked to Belgrade, Zagreb or Sarajevo?

15 A. The Office of the Prosecutor is linked to all the field

16 offices.

17 Q. Okay. When you went to the territory of Yugoslavia,

18 since we finally share an understanding that it is

19 Yugoslav territory, did you request a permit from any

20 body of authority of the country to investigate, to tame

21 people, whichever term you use to term them, to lure

22 them, whichever term you use to bring them to another

23 country's territory to arrest them there; have you ever

24 requested co-operation from the Yugoslav side in that

25 respect?

Page 83

1 A. As far as I am aware the Yugoslav side are compelled to

2 co-operate with us and I can operate anywhere.

3 Q. Mr. Curtis, what you know I am not interested in. Did

4 you request this permit? Did you request co-operation

5 with Yugoslav authorities when you entered the house,

6 the apartment of Mr. Dokmanovic, yes or no?

7 A. I just went on the invitation of Mr. Dokmanovic. No,

8 I did not get a permit.

9 Q. Did you tell Mr. Dokmanovic that you were going there to

10 lure him to the territory of Croatia?

11 A. Certainly not.

12 Q. Did you know in advance the content of his conversation

13 or what Mr. Hryshchyshyn is to tell him?

14 A. Yes, more or less.

15 Q. What? What was he to tell him?

16 A. I only know the brief details of what he was supposed to

17 tell him, and that was with the intention that there was

18 going to be a meeting with General Klein at 3.00 pm or

19 3.30 pm on Friday, 27th June, and inviting Mr. Dokmanovic

20 to go to that meeting.

21 Q. Was he to give him guarantees that he would return back

22 and that he would send Mr. Klein's vehicle that is known

23 to all so that he could go there and return safely?

24 A. That was never discussed because there was no intention

25 of him going back.

Page 84

1 Q. I know that there was no intention of him going back and

2 I know why you went to his house, I have understood

3 that, but my question is: did you tell him, did

4 Mr. Michael -- it is very difficult for me to pronounce

5 his last name, did he guarantee safe conduct for the

6 journey there and back, as far as you know?

7 A. It is Mr. Hryshchyshyn, and as far as I am aware he had

8 no intention of guaranteeing him his safe journey back.

9 Q. Did he guarantee, I do not know if he had the intention,

10 but did he guarantee, did he give him guarantees?

11 A. I think that is something you must ask him.

12 Q. If he does not know, that is okay.

13 MR. NIEMANN: That was what I was going to say, your Honour.

14 He should ask that witness.

15 MR. FILA: Okay, I will withdraw the question.

16 Do you know that the vehicles you used were the

17 vehicles that are normally used by Mr. Klein personally?

18 A. I do not know that, no. I was under that impression,

19 but I do not know that for a fact.

20 Q. Which territory was it, Croatian or Yugoslav, that the

21 vehicles were stopped at? In other words, on which side

22 of the Danube River?

23 A. When you say stopped at, when do you mean "stopped at"?

24 Q. Before Mr. Dokmanovic entered the vehicle, while the

25 vehicles were waiting for Mr. Dokmanovic to arrive?

Page 85

1 A. As I explained earlier, I was in an UN compound at

2 Erdut, so I could not possibly say.

3 Q. Oak. It is okay. Did you offer to Mr. Dokmanovic for

4 the vehicles to perhaps come to pick him up from Sombor,

5 from his home?

6 A. I had no involvement in the arrangements that were made

7 between him and Mr. Hryshchyshyn. I was at

8 Mr. Dokmanovic's house when the phone call took place.

9 Q. As far as I understood, you do not know the content of

10 that conversation, if I have understood you correctly.

11 A. You have understood me correctly.

12 Q. When exactly did you learn about the indictment against

13 him? I mean which year, 1996 or 1997, not the exact

14 date?

15 A. 1996.

16 Q. 1996. When in 1996, if you know? While he was still in

17 Vukovar or after he left?

18 A. I have no idea exactly when it was or where

19 Mr. Dokmanovic was living at the time I learned that

20 information.

21 Q. Could you perhaps be more specific as in whether it was

22 summer or winter in 1996, since it was in April, so

23 there was nothing before April.

24 A. No, I cannot be more specific. I know that I actually

25 got involved in the issue of trying to arrest

Page 86

1 Mr. Dokmanovic in January of 1997.

2 Q. One more question and this will be the last, I do not

3 want to take any more of your time. Your interpreter,

4 whose name we shall withhold, did he interpret for you

5 on that occasion? Did he interpret anything for you

6 when you were visiting Mr. Dokmanovic and when you gave

7 him the yellow piece of paper? Was there any

8 conversation taking place between you? So the question

9 is for after the telephone conversation, so that we

10 avoid any ...

11 A. I am sorry, are you referring to, did he talk to me

12 about what was going on in the telephone conversation?

13 Q. Yes, roughly that. Did he tell you anything at all

14 after he finished the telephone conversation for which,

15 when Mr. Niemann asked you, you said you were under the

16 impression that he was talking on the telephone and if

17 he said anything, what was it that he told you?

18 A. No, we did not discuss it.

19 Q. You did not discuss it.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Finally, the handwriting on the yellow piece of paper,

22 whose handwriting is that?

23 A. All I can say is that it is not mine. I was present

24 when it was written and I would not -- as I am on oath,

25 I would not like to say who actually wrote it, but

Page 87

1 looking at the piece of paper, there are two different

2 handwritings, neither of which are mine.

3 Q. So it is not yours. Is one of those handwritings that

4 of Mr. Hryshchyshyn? I am not interested in any other

5 persons.

6 A. I cannot positively say, because Mr. Hryshchyshyn would

7 have been present when I got the telephone number, but

8 the office that I was in when I got the telephone

9 number, I imagine that I would normally write it down

10 myself, but somebody actually wrote down the various

11 numbers for me.

12 Q. Okay. Since Mr. Hryshchyshyn was present, did he tell

13 you why he was giving you that?

14 A. Mainly it was my idea that that was the way it would

15 happen.

16 Q. Did he tell you, not your impression, but did he tell

17 you, "tell him to call me, I would tell him to come",

18 et cetera, exactly what happened later actually?

19 A. We agreed that the way of Mr. Dokmanovic conversing with

20 Michael Hryshchyshyn was that I would give Mr. Dokmanovic

21 the paper and Mr. Dokmanovic would actually ring him in

22 my presence probably.

23 Q. What they were supposed to talk about you did not

24 discuss that with Michael Hryshchyshyn?

25 A. They were supposed to talk about Mr. Dokmanovic coming

Page 88

1 into the UNTAES area or the UNTAES region to meet

2 General Klein.

3 Q. Which was not the truth, correct? Which was a lie, in

4 effect?

5 A. I do not know what they actually said because I was not

6 privy to the conversation.

7 Q. But de facto, he did not have a meeting with Mr. Klein in

8 Vukovar at 3.00. Are you trying to say that is not a

9 lie? That is a lie.

10 A. The fact of the matter was that he did not have a

11 meeting with General Klein, he was arrested.

12 Q. He was arrested, we know that, that is why he is here,

13 but does that mean that you lied to him or that

14 Mr. Hryshchyshyn lied to him about having a meeting with

15 Mr. Klein? Why is it so difficult to answer if that is

16 okay?

17 A. As I explained before, any conversation that took place

18 between Mr. Hryshchyshyn and Mr. Dokmanovic, you should

19 ask Mr. Hryshchyshyn about.

20 Q. No, I am asking you, I will ask him once he is here, but

21 I am asking you again: are you trying to make us believe

22 that you returned after that and you never again spoke

23 with Mr. Hryshchyshyn, you made an ambush in Erdut. You

24 arrested the man and you did not know what it was that

25 Mr. Hryshchyshyn spoke to Mr. Dokmanovic about; is that

Page 89

1 what you are claiming?

2 A. As I said, I did not hear the conversation. The only

3 part of the conversation I could hear was

4 Mr. Dokmanovic's end, which was in Serbian, which I do

5 not speak. The intention, before I went to see

6 Mr. Dokmanovic, was that --

7 Q. I have understood that, but there is another whole day

8 in between. After you left Dokmanovic, which was

9 Wednesday 25th until the arrest which took place two

10 days later, a day and a half to be precise, did you

11 speak with Mr. Hryshchyshyn about what he spoke to

12 Mr. Dokmanovic about? If not, how could you prepare an

13 ambush? I do not understand that.

14 A. It was a joint effort between UNTAES and the OTP, the

15 arrangements of the arrest.

16 Q. I have understood that, but did Mr. Hryshchyshyn tell you

17 after you returned back to Vukovar, or wherever else you

18 returned, did he tell you what it was that he had spoken

19 to Mr. Dokmanovic about? Otherwise, how could he you

20 expect him to arrive on Friday unless he told you?

21 A. He told me that the arrangements had been made with

22 Mr. Dokmanovic and that he would or should be arriving

23 around 3.00 on the Friday.

24 Q. He did not mention Mr. Dokmanovic asking for any

25 guarantees, he did not tell you that he was sending an

Page 90

1 UNTAES vehicle for him; did he or did he not?

2 A. He did not.

3 Q. Why then did not Mr. Dokmanovic come in his own vehicle,

4 if he came to the bridge in his own vehicle, it would

5 take a kilometre and a half for him to be under your

6 jurisdiction? Why not, if you have not given him any

7 guarantees? Let me remind you that you are under oath.

8 A. You do not need to remind me I am under oath. As

9 Mr. Dokmanovic said, he was worried about any Croatian

10 police or authorities arresting him as he was an

11 indicted war criminal by the Croatian authorities. You

12 must ask him why he did not come in his own vehicle.

13 Q. That I understood and we have asked, but the fact that

14 he was worried, does that have anything to do with the

15 fact that you sent UN marked vehicles, because that way

16 there would be no reason for worries, so what is the

17 reason? Why did you not take him in your own vehicle;

18 or do you want me to help you further? Would he have

19 entered the vehicle unless it was an UN vehicle, if he

20 was scared?

21 A. I would say not, but I cannot answer for Mr. Dokmanovic

22 and what he was thinking.

23 MR. FILA: Thank you very much. That is it. Thank you very

24 much, your Honour.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

Page 91

1 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing in re-examination.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there any objection to Mr. Curtis being

3 permanently excused, Mr. Fila? Mr. Curtis will be excused

4 permanently unless you intend to call him back, or if

5 you want him to be available to be called back.

6 MR. FILA: No, I do not intend to. No, your Honour, I have

7 no intention of keeping him here, there is no need for

8 further examination. There is only one thing that we

9 disagree about or we have disagreed from the beginning,

10 which is the guarantee.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Curtis, you are permanently excused.

12 Thank you for coming.

13 A. Thank you.

14 (The witness withdrew)

15 MR. NIEMANN: I call Witness A, your Honour.

16 (Witness entered court)

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann, would you write this witness's

18 name on a piece of paper again? I apologise, I left it

19 on my desk in my attempt to hold it confidentially.

20 MR. FILA: Your Honour, that is the one.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Would you please, sir, read that oath?

22 WITNESS A (sworn)

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. You may be seated and you will

24 be referred to as Witness A during this hearing. The

25 Prosecution is handing a piece of paper to the usher

Page 92

1 with a name on it. He will show it to counsel for the

2 Defence first and then put it in front of the witness.

3 Mr. Niemann, you may proceed.

4 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

5 Q. Witness A, have you from time to time acted as a field

6 interpreter for the Office of the Prosecutor of the

7 Tribunal?

8 A. Do I have to reply in English or in my mother tongue?

9 Q. You can speak in your mother tongue, I think, with your

10 Honour's leave.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: I do not know what your mother tongue is.

12 As long as we have facilities for interpretation, I am

13 sure we do.

14 A. It depends.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: You need to pick one. If we have

16 interpretation, you may choose, Serbo-Croat, French or

17 English.

18 A. Yes. It could be Serbo-Croatian.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: As you wish.

20 A. So that is Serbo-Croatian.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Did you hear my question?

22 A. Yes. Yes, I did work from time to time for the

23 Tribunal.

24 Q. On 24th June of this year, were you employed by the

25 Office of the Prosecutor as a field interpreter?

Page 93

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the nature of the employment that you were

3 engaged in?

4 A. For the first four days I did not really know what the

5 nature of my work was. I was told that something would

6 happen, but I was not told what. I did not know what

7 was going on until Tuesday, and I was told what was

8 happening only on Tuesday. That is when we went to the

9 UNTAES camp, to the base, and there I was told that it

10 had to do with the possible arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic, and

11 I was supposed to interpret to him his rights if he

12 happened to be arrested.

13 Q. This was June 24th 1997; is that right?

14 A. Yes, I think it was on that date.

15 Q. Apart from being briefed on that day, moving then on to

16 the next day, Wednesday 25th June 1997, what did you do

17 on that day?

18 A. On 25th June, I went together with Mr. Clint Williamson

19 to the UNTAES command in Vukovar. We went into the

20 office of General Klein where we met Mr. Michael

21 Hryshchyshyn and another gentleman by the name of Roger

22 Crispin. I am not sure whether his name is Crispin, but

23 I am sure his first name is Roger. I was told that we

24 were expecting a call from Mr. Dokmanovic at around 10.00

25 am and that I was supposed to interpret what

Page 94

1 Mr. Hryshchyshyn has to say to Mr. Dokmanovic and the

2 other way around. So I was supposed to interpret that

3 conversation.

4 Q. Were you aware of a what position Mr. Hryshchyshyn held

5 at that time?

6 A. I think that he was the executive assistant to General

7 Klein.

8 Q. So far as you knew, he was working for UNTAES; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, as far as I knew.

11 Q. After 10.00 on 25th June 1997, did the phone in fact

12 ring?

13 A. Yes, it was around 10.15, the phone rang and

14 Mr. Hryshchyshyn answered the phone. On the other side

15 it was Mr. Dokmanovic. Mr. Hryshchyshyn told him that

16 they would be communicating through an interpreter and

17 that was me.

18 Q. Can you describe the phone? Was it a speaker phone or

19 was it an ordinary phone that one puts to the ear?

20 A. It was a telephone with a speaker phone option, with a

21 loudspeaker.

22 Q. Was the speaker phone activated?

23 A. I think it was.

24 Q. Can you tell us the conversation as best you can

25 recollect that you then proceeded to interpret between

Page 95

1 Mr. Hryshchyshyn and Mr. Dokmanovic?

2 A. Approximately at the beginning of the conversation

3 Mr. Hryshchyshyn told Mr. Dokmanovic that they had not

4 seen each other for a long time, and that General Klein

5 was willing to meet with Mr. Dokmanovic with regard to

6 the property of those Serbs who wished to leave Eastern

7 Slavonia. Mr. Dokmanovic agreed to that, he accepted the

8 meeting, and the meeting was scheduled for 15.30 hours

9 on Friday, 27th June 1997. The remainder of the

10 conversation had to do with the transportation of

11 Mr. Dokmanovic to the UNTAES command.

12 Q. Can you give us any details of the transportation

13 arrangements that were discussed between Mr. Dokmanovic

14 and Mr. Hryshchyshyn?

15 A. Mr. Hryshchyshyn offered transportation to Mr. Dokmanovic

16 from Sombor, I think it was Sombor, all the way to the

17 UNTAES command, but Mr. Dokmanovic said that he would

18 have his own means of transport up to Bogojevo, up to

19 the bridge in Bogojevo and then Mr. Dokmanovic requested

20 that a vehicle pick him up, actually to wait for him on

21 the Bogojevo side of the bridge, the bridge linking

22 Erdut and the village of Bogojevo.

23 Q. What did Mr. Hryshchyshyn then say in response to this

24 request by Mr. Dokmanovic?

25 A. Mr. Hryshchyshyn agreed to that.

Page 96

1 Q. Was there any further discussion that you can recall in

2 relation to this particular meeting that was to take

3 place?

4 A. I cannot recall any specific details that have to do

5 with anything connected to the meeting. I know that

6 Mr. Hryshchyshyn said that they had some pictures of

7 Mr. Dokmanovic from a previous meeting, but do not take

8 that for granted, so that there was nothing more

9 specifically linked to the meeting itself. At 4.00 that

10 afternoon, I was supposed to confirm whether

11 Mr. Dokmanovic would be travelling to Bogojevo on his own

12 and he confirmed that his friend would drive him to the

13 border, actually to Bogojevo.

14 Q. Do you recall at any stage during the conversation you

15 had with him, with Mr. Hryshchyshyn or, indeed, even the

16 conversation you had that afternoon with Mr. Dokmanovic,

17 him being given any guarantees about his free passage

18 through the area under the control of UNTAES?

19 A. He was not given any guarantees, at least nothing was

20 said. Mr. Dokmanovic insisted that the vehicle wait for

21 him on the Bogojevo side of the bridge, but as far as

22 I can remember, there was nothing specific said as to

23 the guarantees of his safety. No one guaranteed his

24 safety specifically. Nobody said to him, word for word,

25 "I guarantee your safety".

Page 97

1 Q. What was your next involvement in the matter after these

2 two conversations on Wednesday 25th?

3 A. As regards the Dokmanovic case, we waited for the

4 further developments in an UNTAES camp in Erdut. I was

5 there, together with Mr. Vladimir Zuro, an investigator,

6 who was supposed to read to Mr. Dokmanovic his rights.

7 Then at 3.00 on Friday, I was there waiting for the

8 possible arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic to take place.

9 Q. This is Friday 27th June 1997, is it?

10 A. Yes, the 27th.

11 Q. Where were you located at that particular time, where

12 were you positioning yourself?

13 A. We were in an UNTAES camp, it is in Erdut, so we were

14 within the premises of the camp, within the perimeter

15 fence, somewhere in the middle of the camp, if you want

16 me to be really exact.

17 Q. When you were there, what did you see happen and what

18 did you do?

19 A. At a certain point in time a Jeep arrived and two

20 persons were taken out of the vehicle. I asked which

21 one of them was Mr. Dokmanovic, since I did not know

22 him. I had never seen his picture and he was pointed

23 out to me, Mr. Dokmanovic was pointed out to me.

24 Then Mr. Dokmanovic, another gentleman who was also

25 in the car was taken somewhere else, I did not see where

Page 98

1 he was taken to. Mr. Dokmanovic was then singled out,

2 Mr. Vladimir Zuro and myself approached him and then we

3 read him his rights, in fact Mr. Zuro read them and

4 I interpreted them.

5 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.


7 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

8 Q. Mr. A, my name is Toma Fila, I am the Defence counsel for

9 Mr. Dokmanovic. I would like to ask you a few

10 questions. Does Mr. Hryshchyshyn speak Serbian --

11 Serbo-Croatian, if you want, or Bosnian?

12 A. As far as I know, I never heard him talk Serbian. He

13 may speak a few words because he is of Ukranian descent.

14 Q. On whose territory is Bogojevo?

15 A. I do not know.

16 Q. You do not know?

17 A. I know somewhere between Erdut and Bogojevo is the

18 border line. I assume the border line is the bridge,

19 but I do not know because I have never been there

20 before.

21 Q. Was Mr. Klein at the time in Vukovar when you and the

22 Prosecutors discussed that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So that means that the meeting with Mr. Klein at 3.00 was

25 not possible since Mr. Klein was not there?

Page 99

1 A. As far as I know, Mr. Klein -- but do not take that for

2 granted because this was not part of my role -- Mr. Klein

3 was supposed to come back from New York from an

4 important meeting. As far as I know Mr. Klein was there

5 on Friday.

6 Q. So, in other words, was he aware of the arrangements for

7 3.00?

8 A. I cannot tell you that. As far as I know he was aware

9 of that.

10 Q. Mr. Dokmanovic was on the other side and he thought he

11 spoke to Mr. Hryshchyshyn in Serbian, so in fact he spoke

12 to you?

13 A. Mr. Hryshchyshyn picked up the phone and I think that

14 Mr. Dokmanovic speaks some English, at least a little

15 bit, and then Mr. Hryshchyshyn said that he would be

16 talking through his interpreter. This is verbatim what

17 he said, through me in other words.

18 Q. All right. I understand, so these accounts differ.

19 This differs from what he said. So when you discussed

20 the vehicles, the vehicle, I am sorry, you were talking

21 about one vehicle -- okay, it is not important. Were

22 you discussing what kind of vehicle would be sent, would

23 it be a UN vehicle that would be sent to pick up

24 Mr. Dokmanovic on the Bogojevo side?

25 A. They said vehicles and I assumed that the presumption

Page 100

1 would be that these would be UNTAES vehicles.

2 Q. Is Bogojevo under UNTAES jurisdiction?

3 A. I think you ask the wrong person. I am an interpreter.

4 Q. But you must have heard the interpretation?

5 A. Yes, but I think you ask the wrong person. You have to

6 find somebody else to answer that question.

7 MR. FILA: All right. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?


10 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there any objection -- do you have any

11 questions?

12 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Mr. A, are you a professional

13 interpreter?

14 A. No, I am an engineer, but I finished some advanced

15 courses in English and I have been working for the

16 Tribunal since May 1996 as a field interpreter.

17 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Are you still employed in that capacity?

19 A. As an engineer?

20 Q. No, really interpreter with the Tribunal.

21 A. Yes, I actually concluded a mission a couple of days

22 ago.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional

24 questions?


Page 101

1 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, is there any objection to

2 Witness A being permanently excused?

3 MR. FILA: He may be permanently excused and I have the same

4 objection as to the first witness, he had to hear this

5 thing about the guarantees.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: If you plan on testifying, we will hear you

7 later, but thank you. You are excused, Witness A.

8 Thank you very much for coming. You are permanently

9 excused.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 MR. NIEMANN: I call Mr. Hryshchyshyn.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann, how long do you anticipate you

13 will need for Mr. Hryshchyshyn?

14 MR. NIEMANN: 15 minutes, 20 minutes, your Honour?

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Because I have asked the Registrar, Mr. Fila

16 and Mr. Niemann, I have asked the Registrar to come to

17 this proceeding to explain the arrest warrants that were

18 issued. It is Exhibit D13. You will recall,

19 Miss Lopicic, you had offered for D13 one in

20 Serbo-Croatian and one in English and I have asked her

21 to come to advise the Chamber regarding those matters.

22 So I wanted to get an indication of when we would hear

23 from her. You say 15 minutes and then cross -- okay,

24 very good. Thank you.

25 MR. FILA: Your Honour, if I may, if Mr. Niemann agrees, we

Page 102

1 can simplify this matter. You can only ask this person

2 whether he gave the guarantees or not and I will have no

3 further questions and we will not be bothering each

4 other any more. That is the only thing that you should

5 ask.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: I have some additional questions for sure,

7 but I appreciate your assistance. (Pause). Bring the

8 witness in, please.

9 (Witness entered court)

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

11 being handed to you?


13 JUDGE McDONALD: You may be seated.

14 A. Thank you.

15 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

16 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?

17 A. Yes, my name is Michael Harry Hryshchyshyn.

18 Q. Can you spell your surname?

19 A. H-R-Y-S-H-C-H-Y-S-H-Y-N.

20 Q. What is your date of birth?

21 A. September 4th 1956.

22 Q. During the course of this year, by whom have you been

23 employed?

24 A. I have been employed by the United Nations.

25 Q. Where have you been employed?

Page 103

1 A. In Eastern Slavonija, Croatia.

2 Q. By what particular branch of the United Nations?

3 A. By the Department of Peace Keeping Operations.

4 Q. Is the organisation that you work for in Eastern

5 Slavonija commonly referred to as UNTAES?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. What was your position with UNTAES?

8 A. My position is that of the military assistant to the

9 Transitional Administrator.

10 Q. What is meant by Transitional Administrator?

11 A. The Transitional Administrator is the under-Secretary

12 General that heads the UNTAES mission. He is, in fact,

13 the Chief Executive of that organisation.

14 Q. In June 1997, who was the Transitional Administrator?

15 A. That was Mr. Jacques Klein.

16 Q. What were your duties working for Mr. Klein?

17 A. I was responsible for Mr. Klein's scheduling,

18 co-ordination of his daily and long-term activities,

19 meetings, talking points, briefing papers, background

20 information, basically all the various activities to

21 support him in his role as Transitional Administrator.

22 Q. During the latter half of 1996, did you become aware of

23 negotiations that were occurring between the

24 International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia and


Page 104

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the nature of those negotiations?

3 A. During the later half of 1996 there was a warrant that

4 was delivered from the International War Crimes Tribunal

5 to the Transitional Administrator.

6 Q. The warrant, did you know the nature of the warrant in

7 terms of -- was it a public document or had it been

8 concealed pursuant to order of the court?

9 A. It was a document that was not available for public

10 disclosure.

11 Q. Did you know who this particular arrest warrant related

12 to, the person?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was that?

15 A. Actually there was a warrant and then a modification.

16 The initial warrant was for three officers, and then the

17 modification added Mr. Dokmanovic.

18 Q. What was your understanding of the role that the

19 International Tribunal wished UNTAES to play in relation

20 to these warrants?

21 A. My understanding is that the UNTAES mission is to

22 support the dealings of ICTY when possible.

23 Q. When you say support, in what way were you to support

24 ICTY?

25 A. Our mission was to co-ordinate, provide information and

Page 105

1 assist them in any way possible when requested.

2 Q. On 24th June 1997, did you meet with personnel from the

3 Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?

4 A. Could you give me that date again, sir.

5 Q. Tuesday 24th June.

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. When you had this meeting, what were you informed?

8 A. I was informed that ICTY had had a meeting with

9 Mr. Dokmanovic and they indicated that he might be

10 interested in having a meeting with Mr. Klein, the

11 Transitional Administrator.

12 Q. When you were informed of this, what did you say?

13 A. They indicated to me that he might be interested in

14 calling to try and arrange the meeting, and I indicated

15 that I would facilitate the meeting if it was requested.

16 Q. How was it that arrangements were to proceed in relation

17 to facilitating this meeting?

18 A. They had indicated to me that it might be likely that he

19 would call our office for an appointment. I had

20 indicated to them that I would be available the next

21 morning during a certain period of time, and that if he

22 were to call that I would take the phone call.

23 Q. What particular period of time was mentioned by you as

24 being the time when you would be available?

25 A. The best time would be around 10.00 to 10.30 in the

Page 106

1 morning, which would be typically after our morning

2 staff meeting.

3 Q. This was to be on Wednesday 25th June 1997?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On Wednesday 25th June 1997, can you recount the events

6 that happened at around about 10.10, 10.30 on that day?

7 A. Yes. I had come back from the staff meeting. I was in

8 my office and somewhere between about 10.15 and 10.30

9 I received a phone call from ICTY, and later during that

10 same telephone conversation I spoke with Mr. Dokmanovic.

11 Q. When you say ICTY, did you speak to anyone from ICTY?

12 A. Yes, I did. I do not recall at this time exactly who

13 I spoke to.

14 Q. Okay. What happened then?

15 A. After I had a conversation with the person from ICTY,

16 they had indicated to me that Mr. Dokmanovic would like

17 to speak with me and I proceeded to have a conversation

18 on the phone.

19 Q. Did you speak to him face-to-face or did you use the

20 services of an interpreter?

21 A. I used the services of an interpreter.

22 Q. Can you recount now the telephone -- can you recall now

23 the telephone conversation that you had at the time?

24 A. Yes, I can. Initially the phone conversation started

25 with an exchange of formalities in the way of saying

Page 107

1 hello to each other. After we had completed that, we

2 had discussed the business of the call and that was a

3 request by Mr. Dokmanovic to meet with Mr. Klein.

4 Q. Can you recall what Mr. Dokmanovic actually said in

5 relation to this to you?

6 A. Yes, he said that he had been meeting with members of

7 ICTY. He indicated that there were some issues on his

8 mind that he wanted to discuss, in particular he was

9 interested in property rights of the ethnic Serbian

10 people, and specifically about his own property rights

11 relating to the land holdings that he had in Eastern

12 Slavonija, and what would happen to those as that

13 territory reintegrated into the Republic of Croatia.

14 Q. After he had told you this, what did you say to him?

15 A. I had indicated to him that it was my belief that the

16 Transitional Administrator would be willing to meet with

17 him and we then discussed the time and the mechanism of

18 that occurring.

19 Q. What did you discuss with him in relation to the time of

20 the meeting?

21 A. We discussed him meeting with the Transitional

22 Administrator at 3.30 on Friday 27th June in Vukovar.

23 Q. Why was this time selected?

24 A. Because that is the time that was available in the

25 Transitional Administrator's calendar.

Page 108

1 Q. In relation to the travel arrangements, what discussions

2 did you have concerning that?

3 A. When Mr. Dokmanovic and I spoke, I sensed some concern on

4 his part travelling into the UNTAES region as we call

5 it.

6 Q. Are you able to be more specific as to what it was that

7 made you sense this concern?

8 A. Actually he mentioned that he had a concern, and as we

9 discussed it my suggestion was that in order to

10 facilitate his entry into the region, that we send UN

11 vehicles so that he could easily access the region.

12 Q. Did you say -- did you have a discussion with him as to

13 where the UN vehicles might pick him up?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. Where was that?

16 A. We had indicated that it would be between the two

17 checkpoints, between the UNTAES checkpoint and the

18 checkpoint for Serbia, on the Erdut bridge.

19 Q. Did you then proceed to make arrangements in connection

20 with this?

21 A. Yes, we did.

22 Q. What did he say to you when you suggested -- did you

23 suggest to him that this was the point where you might

24 pick him up, or was this a suggestion that came from

25 him?

Page 109

1 A. At this point, I do not actually recall who suggested it

2 to who, but as we were both having the conversation it

3 resulted in that this would be a good means. It is not

4 atypical that we send the Transitional Administrator's

5 vehicles to pick up different guests as they come into

6 the UNTAES region.

7 Q. This particular part of the territory at Erdut where

8 this bridge is, do you know where the border lies at

9 that place?

10 A. I do not know. I simply know that it is an area between

11 the area that is the UNTAES checkpoint and recognises

12 the region and between the checkpoint that is the

13 official checkpoint of the Serbian government.

14 Q. Do you know whether or not this border line, if you

15 might call it that, between the two territories, is

16 settled in relation to the parties on either side?

17 A. My best understanding is that it is not that -- not

18 necessarily for that specific instance, but for others,

19 when we have looked specifically in the area of Elok

20 which is to the south of the region on various different

21 maps, be they from the United States mapping agency or

22 the United Nations or other maps, there is typically

23 controversy as to where that line was or is. Under the

24 government of Yugoslavia, that, of course, was simply

25 not as important as it was in fact one government.

Page 110

1 Q. Do you happen to know where the border line runs --

2 sorry, I withdraw that.

3 Do you happen to know where the Federal Republic

4 of Yugoslavia asserts that its border line runs in

5 relation to the bridge at Erdut?

6 A. I am not sure exactly what their position is, but if you

7 take a look at where they have set their checkpoint up,

8 it is certainly not on the bridge, but it is on a piece

9 of land that is east of the Erdut bridge.

10 Q. The checkpoint on the Croatian side, if I can call it

11 that, on the Erdut side of the bridge, are you able to

12 say, is that manned by Croatian police or by UNTAES?

13 A. At that particular period in time it was monitored by

14 UNTAES military, UNTAES border monitors.

15 Q. What does that entail, when you say that it was

16 monitored?

17 A. Basically that those individuals with the border

18 monitors being the lead organisation responsible for the

19 checkpoint, and I believe TPF was involved as well and

20 that stands for the Transitional Police Force, is

21 required to check identification of vehicles, both

22 entering and leaving the region, as well as performing

23 weapons checks.

24 Q. Apart from the matters that you have already testified

25 to, do you recall whether Mr. Dokmanovic said anything

Page 111

1 else in relation to this proposed meeting?

2 A. Not at this present time.

3 Q. Did he agree that he would meet the UN vehicles at the

4 place that you had designated and at the time that you

5 had designated?

6 A. Yes, he did and the time that was suggested was 3.00,

7 which would allow for ample travel time from that

8 location to the Transitional Administrator's office.

9 Q. If UNTAES vehicles are to travel into the Federal

10 Republic of Yugoslavia, are they permitted to do that?

11 A. UNTAES vehicles, yes, are permitted to do that.

12 Q. Is it necessary for members of the staff of UNTAES to

13 obtain any special form of permission to travel into

14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

15 A. No, they are not. They need to produce their

16 credentials as they go through the checkpoint to the

17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

18 Q. Do you recall having a conversation -- in the course of

19 the conversation with Mr. Dokmanovic, do you recall

20 mentioning the fact that there was a picture apparently

21 that Mr. Klein had of Dokmanovic?

22 A. Yes, I did. In fact, Mr. Klein had indicated to me that

23 he had a picture and that at some point in the future

24 when he saw Mr. Dokmanovic, that he wanted to give him

25 that picture. I do.

Page 112

1 Q. What was your next involvement in the matter, in this

2 matter, after making these arrangements over the

3 telephone?

4 A. After I had made those arrangements over the telephone,

5 my next interaction that had to do with anything

6 surrounding this matter was receiving a phone call on

7 Friday evening from Mr. Dokmanovic's son.

8 Q. Did you at any stage in the course of the conversation

9 with Mr. Dokmanovic give him an assurance that he would

10 not be arrested if he came into the area of UNTAES?

11 A. I had indicated to him that by providing vehicles, we

12 could assure that he would not have a problem entering

13 the UNTAES region.

14 Q. Apart from telling him that, did you say anything else

15 to him?

16 A. There is no way that I could provide any guarantees of

17 anything.

18 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila?

20 Cross-examined by MR. FILA

21 Q. Mr. Hryshchyshyn, my name is Toma Fila and I am Defence

22 counsel for Mr. Dokmanovic and I would like to ask you

23 several questions.

24 You said two things that for me are

25 contradictory. One is that you were giving no

Page 113

1 guarantees and the second that you guaranteed to

2 Mr. Dokmanovic that it would be a UN vehicles that would

3 allow him to enter UNTAES territory, if I understood you

4 correctly.

5 A. Perhaps you did not understand what I said exactly.

6 Mr. Dokmanovic was concerned about having a problem

7 entering the UNTAES area. In order to assist with that

8 concern, I suggested that we provide vehicles that have

9 the ability to enter our region automatically without

10 checks as a means of ensuring that he enter the region.

11 That is something that is typically done. It is

12 standard policy that any UN vehicle that enters through

13 any of the checkpoints, whether international or

14 internal to Croatia, are permitted free access into the

15 region, so that simply is in consonance with the

16 standards UNTAES policy.

17 Q. And since when has it become a problem entering the

18 territory of Croatia, all of us entering UNTAES have no

19 problems. Anyone can enter the territory of UNTAES.

20 Obviously they have a problem leaving or trying to leave

21 the UNTAES, but as for entering that territory or better

22 still, who have you given guarantees of safety for

23 entering the UNTAES territory and those persons have not

24 asked for guarantees for leaving the UNTAES territory?

25 A. No, it is simply not possible for anyone to enter the

Page 114

1 UNTAES region. They need to have appropriate

2 credentials in order to do that. They need to have

3 forms of identification that are acceptable for entry

4 into the UNTAES area. All the vehicles that are stopped

5 are subject to inspections. Those inspections including

6 inspections for weapons, so that it is simply not a

7 totally permeable border. It is, in fact, a checkpoint

8 not only for entering the region but also for exiting

9 the region. So in both directions, there is a standard

10 protocol that is established.

11 Q. So anyone who does not have that would be arrested; that

12 is so in all of the world, including UNTAES. What

13 I want to know is: did Mr. Dokmanovic ask any guarantees

14 from you that he would be able to enter and then be

15 arrested by the Croats or anybody else? Why would he

16 need a guarantee? He can enter? You know that he had

17 been the President of the Municipal Assembly. You know

18 that his son is employed by you, by UNTAES. Why would

19 he need any guarantees to enter UNTAES? How do you

20 explain that, without him asking guarantees for leaving

21 UNTAES. Does that seem logical to you, Mr. Hryshchyshyn?

22 A. During the conversation it was my impression that

23 Mr. Dokmanovic had concerns about the checkpoint in

24 either direction, that there were simply concerns about

25 that whole issue.

Page 115

1 Q. That is okay. Now it is okay, thank you. Not just to

2 enter, because that makes no sense. Second question:

3 you told us that it is common practice for you to send

4 vehicles when Mr. Klein is receiving guests.

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. Yes. Were those vehicles normally used by Mr. Klein, the

7 ones that you sent to pick up Mr. Dokmanovic?

8 A. Yes, they were. In fact --

9 Q. That is enough, thank you. Does that mean that

10 Mr. Dokmanovic was Mr. Klein's guest?

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, you need to allow the witness to

12 respond to the question --

13 MR. FILA: I did ask.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Did you complete your answer?

15 A. Not on the last answer. If I may be permitted. I would

16 like to finish my complaint. One thing I think is

17 important is I think the issue is more simply than

18 entering and leaving the region. During the

19 conversation, I sensed Mr. Dokmanovic was concerned about

20 being seen in the region and that was one of the reasons

21 that those particular vehicles were sent, because him

22 being in those vehicles, having tinted windows, being

23 the vehicles of the Transitional Administrator, that

24 anybody living within the region would not necessarily

25 know who was in that vehicle, so that is I think a very

Page 116

1 important point. Thank you, your Honour, for permitting

2 me to expand upon that, as to why we had suggested and

3 had those available, so I guess the point I am making is

4 that there is more of a concern than just in and out of

5 the region. The concern was also him being seen within

6 the region. Thank you.

7 MR. FILA: Thank you, because that is exactly what

8 Mr. Dokmanovic says, exactly what you have just told us.

9 So there is no reason for any discussion between you and

10 I because what Mr. Dokmanovic says is exactly the same.

11 My question is the following: Mr. Hryshchyshyn said

12 it was common practice to send vehicles to the Yugoslav

13 territory when people they need to pick up are

14 Mr. Klein's guests. Was Mr. Dokmanovic a guest of

15 Mr. Klein?

16 A. Mr. Dokmanovic was proceeding to a mutually agreed upon

17 meeting between UNTAES and himself.

18 Q. My question to you was, and you answered Mr. Niemann's

19 question that it was common practice that Mr. Klein sent

20 his vehicle for his own guests to the Yugoslav

21 territory, and that is something we agree upon. Does

22 that mean that Mr. Dokmanovic was a guest of Mr. Klein?

23 He either was or was not. Yes or no.

24 A. It depends on what you classify as a guest.

25 Q. Excuse me, but those whom you arrest and send to

Page 117

1 Scheveningen, I do not consider them guests. That

2 I would not include under the term guest.

3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour --

4 MR. FILA: A guest is someone who comes to visit you for

5 lunch, for dinner. A guest is a person you receive at

6 your home. You are Ukranian, I am Yugoslav, I believe

7 we both know what a guest is.

8 A. No, let me correct the record. I am an American.

9 Q. A guest is somebody you receive at your home. I am of

10 Greek descent. I am sorry, I did not mean to insult

11 you. I do apologise. Without any hard feelings. What

12 I wanted to say, when somebody visits you at your home,

13 that is a guest. When you invite someone somewhere,

14 that is a guest. If Mr. Dokmanovic was a guest, that

15 does not fit into the ambush that was set up later. He

16 was either a guest or he was not a guest. That is what

17 I understand as the term guest. So let us try it this

18 way --

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Did Mr. Klein invite Mr. Dokmanovic into his

20 home?

21 A. No, he did not.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. Let us work with that.

23 MR. FILA: Did Mr. Klein really have a meeting with

24 Mr. Dokmanovic at 3.00? Let us try it this way.

25 A. There was a meeting that was scheduled. That meeting

Page 118

1 did not take place.

2 Q. At the moment when you were scheduling the meeting, did

3 you know that he was to be arrested as soon as he had

4 crossed the border, because this was a distance of

5 several hundred metres.

6 A. I certainly knew that that would be a possibility.

7 Q. So as far as you are concerned, the other possibility

8 was that he would go to the meeting and he would collect

9 the photograph from Mr. Klein?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was Mr. Klein there at the time? Was he waiting for him

12 to give him the photograph at 3.00?

13 A. The meeting was scheduled for 3.30. The meeting time in

14 Erdut was scheduled for 3.00.

15 Q. I do understand that, but was Mr. Klein there and was he

16 waiting for him with the photograph that you said he had

17 had? Was he waiting for Mr. Dokmanovic to appear, or

18 Mr. Klein was not there at all?

19 A. Mr. Klein had on his schedule the meeting with

20 Mr. Dokmanovic. Mr. Klein that afternoon was on his way

21 back from Zagreb. He was in transit.

22 Q. My question was: on that day at 15.30, was Mr. Klein at

23 the place where he was supposed to meet Mr. Dokmanovic,

24 not where he was returning from or where he was going;

25 was he there, same as you are here now?

Page 119

1 A. No, he was delayed.

2 Q. So he was not there. When did he arrive? Did he arrive

3 at all? Because as far as I know, he was in Zagreb.

4 A. He was in Zagreb, he was returning from a trip, he did

5 return. I do not know exactly what time he returned.

6 Q. So do you still insist that the meeting really was

7 scheduled for Mr. Klein and Mr. Dokmanovic with the

8 possibility of actually attending a meeting, or was that

9 just a trap, a set-up that you needed in order to arrest

10 him?

11 A. When I had scheduled the meeting with Mr. Dokmanovic,

12 I had checked Mr. Klein's flight arrangements, and when

13 he was to arrive into the region. I had set up that

14 meeting so that Mr. Klein would be there at 3.30 in his

15 office to meet Mr. Dokmanovic. During the course of

16 Friday, there was a late scheduled flight which

17 accounted for why Mr. Klein appeared late, but when we

18 scheduled the meeting, yes, it was such that Mr. Klein

19 would be in his office at 3.30 at UNTAES headquarters.

20 Q. Okay, so when did you find out that he was to be

21 arrested if he crosses the border, if you found that out

22 at all, I am sorry; if you knew that?

23 A. I knew that certainly that there was a warrant for

24 Mr. Dokmanovic and I knew that that was a possibility.

25 Q. Who organised the ambush at the UNTAES checkpoint in

Page 120

1 Erdut if it was not you and you are the military

2 advisor?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I object to the use of the word

4 ambush.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: I will sustain your objection. Who

6 organised the arrest? Do not use the word "ambush".

7 That carries with it certain connotations of illegality

8 and that is an issue for the court to resolve. Do you

9 understand, Mr. Fila? Who made the arrangements for the

10 arrest if not you, rather than ambush.

11 MR. FILA: Okay. Who organised the arrest if it was not you

12 and these were UNTAES soldiers? Could that be done by

13 somebody else without your knowledge?

14 A. Yes, it certainly could. Let me help explain. I have a

15 title of military assistant, I do not report to the

16 force commander; nor do any of the military troops

17 report to me, so there is no line of authority within

18 that structure as well. What UNTAES military soldiers

19 do, that is not authorised by me, nor do I necessarily

20 know what all their activities are at any given point in

21 time. That is a matter for the force commander. With

22 regard to your question of who organised it, I am not

23 sure. What I know is that I know that ICTY made the

24 arrest. That I can tell you for certain.

25 Q. The court is a building where judges are, but somebody

Page 121

1 had to do it. Who were the people? The court cannot

2 arrest, it is the police or the army that arrests, but

3 not the court. The court can instruct or give orders.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, if I may, I will object to any

5 questions which are endeavouring to ascertain who the

6 particular military unit were, but that may not have

7 been the question, it may just have been the way

8 I understood the interpretation of it.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: I will overrule your objection. It is not

10 the unit. I have a question as to whether it was --

11 MR. FILA: That was not what I wanted.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: -- whether it was UNTAES or the Office of

13 the Prosecutor that made the arrest. You have said that

14 ICTY made the arrest, and what Mr. Fila is saying is that

15 we judges are part of ICTY as well, so certainly you are

16 not saying that we made the arrest.

17 A. No, it is my understanding, because at that time I was

18 in my office and I only know the situation after it was

19 reported, that there were UNTAES personnel, military

20 personnel involved in the detainment of Mr. Dokmanovic,

21 but that the actual apprehension was made by

22 investigators from the International War Crimes

23 Tribunal. It is my understanding that they served the

24 warrant and made the arrest.

25 MR. FILA: That is what I asked. Just to clarify the issue

Page 122

1 on the border; the vehicles which, as you said, belonged

2 to Mr. Klein, which side of your checkpoint were they

3 at? Were they on the Croatian side or the other side?

4 A. Those vehicles --

5 Q. Or let me just ask, do you understand? If this is the

6 checkpoint, this is where Erdut is, this is Bogojevo

7 (indicates). So where were they?

8 A. If you take a look at the area, between the two

9 checkpoints is the Erdut bridge. It is my understanding

10 that Mr. Dokmanovic entered UNTAES vehicles in an area

11 between those two checkpoints, so it was not within

12 Serbia, not within the land mass of Croatia, but it was

13 on the bridge.

14 Q. So then you know for certain exactly where the border

15 is, if you are making such a claim. If you can claim

16 that that was neither the territory of Croatia nor the

17 territory of Serbia, then you are the only person who

18 knows whose territory it is, because there is no such

19 thing as no man's land. It has to be someone's.

20 A. My understanding is that there are many borders that

21 remain uncertain. The one thing that we know for sure

22 is that through patrolling, surveillance, a nation

23 exercising their sovereignty over a piece of land, that

24 over that bridge, neither did the Republic of Croatia

25 nor the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia exercise any

Page 123

1 sovereignty over that area. In other words, had the two

2 checkpoints been located immediately adjacent to each

3 other, I could tell you exactly what was what.

4 Q. No, you just said that that was neither the territory of

5 Croatia nor the territory of Serbia and that is not

6 possible. It has to be somebody's territory. How far

7 do the Yugoslav forces patrol? How far do their patrols

8 reach? Is it to the middle of the bridge? Is there a

9 building, is there a sentry post there?

10 A. It is my understanding that the Serbian militia --

11 Q. Not militia, army.

12 A. That I have never heard any account or seen any account

13 where they come through that checkpoint and on to the

14 bridge. To go back, to expound on your further previous

15 question, I am not an expert in these matters, far from

16 it, but I am also aware of the concept that there are

17 areas in the world that are termed international areas,

18 whether it relates to water or land masses or whatever,

19 and those international areas are used commonly by more

20 than one nation.

21 I think the thing that is most germane here is

22 that the vehicles were positioned on the bridge (i) in

23 order to facilitate the entry and (ii) that the vehicles

24 did not go into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to be

25 subject to --

Page 124

1 Q. Let me ask you something else?

2 A. To be subject to checks on the border.

3 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, let the witness finish, please.

4 A. I think I finished the sentence, but let me just finish

5 it. In other words, the region that they were

6 positioned on the bridge there is so that the UNTAES

7 vehicles would not have to go through the Federal

8 Republic of Yugoslavia's checkpoint and then have to

9 turn around and come back through that checkpoint

10 again. Thank you.

11 MR. FILA: Did you offer Mr. Dokmanovic for the vehicles to be

12 sent to Sombor to pick him up from his home?

13 A. I did not offer that, no.

14 Q. You did not. My last question: at that bridge are there

15 UNTAES patrols controlling that area, that particular

16 space, since the Yugoslav police are not controlling it,

17 since Croatian police is not controlling it, so is it

18 UNTAES controlling the area or are they standing behind

19 their checkpoint? Is that the UNTAES area of

20 responsibility, to put it in simple words?

21 A. It is my understanding that neither side has

22 responsibility for that area, that typically both

23 parties are positioned at their checkpoints, that I am

24 not aware of -- that is me, I am not aware of any

25 routine patrolling back and forth in between those two

Page 125

1 checkpoints. The Yugoslav, the Federal Republic of

2 Yugoslavia authorities are at their checkpoint and the

3 UNTAES officials are at their checkpoint.

4 Q. That territory. Finally, according to the UN resolution

5 which places UNTAES in the territory of Eastern

6 Slavonija et cetera, exactly what their authorities are

7 according to the UN resolution and not according to the

8 agreement between you and the Tribunal regarding

9 uncovering and arresting persons suspected of having

10 committed war crimes.

11 A. Is that a question?

12 JUDGE McDONALD: I think it is. Do you wish to respond to

13 that?

14 A. Yes, I do. In the Security Council resolution that

15 establishes UNTAES as a mission, it specifically states

16 that the Transitional Administrator has complete

17 executive authority over the area that is defined as

18 Eastern Slavonija, Baranja and Western Srem. Further in

19 that same resolution, it specifically states that UNTAES

20 is directed to co-operate and assist ICTY as part of its

21 mandate. So if you pull a copy of the Security Council

22 resolution, it clearly states it in that document.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you have additional questions, Mr. Fila?

24 MR. FILA: Yes. And it is related exactly to which

25 territory, this authority of Mr. Klein? Everything you

Page 126

1 said is correct, but for exactly which territory of


3 A. As I mentioned earlier, it is defined as the area of

4 Eastern Slavonija, Baranja and Western Srem. That is

5 known as the UNTAES region.

6 Q. So outside that territory, you have no authority

7 whatsoever in the territory of Yugoslavia or any other

8 territory that is not within UNTAES.

9 A. That is correct. We are specifically mandated with

10 authority within that region.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

12 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Hryshchyshyn, a few questions. Mr. Klein

14 is the Transitional Administrator; is that correct?

15 A. No, your Honour, I am sorry, Mr. Klein was the

16 Transitional Administrator during that period of time,

17 yes, ma'am.

18 Q. So he was at that time?

19 A. Yes, he left his functions as of 1st August this year.

20 Q. If authority was to be given by UNTAES to detain

21 Mr. Dokmanovic, what person would have the authority to

22 give such an order? Would it be Mr. Klein at that time

23 or were there other individuals who could give such an

24 order?

25 A. There are other individuals authorised with what I will

Page 127

1 call the executive authorities of the region. Mr. Klein

2 has a deputy, Mr. Klein also -- had at that point in

3 time, past tense -- had a force commander as well.

4 Q. Who gave the order to detain Mr. Dokmanovic, if you

5 know? Who within UNTAES?

6 A. I am not really sure who gave that order.

7 Q. Do you know whether any UNTAES official participated

8 with Mr. Curtis, Mr. Kevin Curtis, with the office of the

9 Tribunal Prosecutor, to encourage Mr. Dokmanovic to come

10 to Eastern Slavonija for the purpose of being arrested?

11 A. As I understand the situation, your Honour,

12 representatives of ICTY had ongoing conversations with

13 Mr. Dokmanovic, reference war crimes sites, that was

14 their primary business, as I understand it, with him.

15 As they were having conversations, it was my

16 understanding that there were various physical locations

17 within the region that he wanted to point out to them

18 very specifically. As it has been related to me, during

19 the course of those conversations and during discussions

20 when Mr. Klein's name was mentioned, that indicated that

21 he did not see Mr. Klein for a long time, and was

22 interested in visiting the region.

23 Q. When you spoke with Mr. Dokmanovic on, what was that,

24 26th, was it?

25 A. No, that would have been the 25th, a Wednesday.

Page 128

1 Q. Was that the first time that you spoke with him

2 concerning a meeting with Mr. Klein?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. During this time period at least.

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. At that point in time, did you know that arrangements

7 were in effect for UNTAES personnel to detain

8 Mr. Dokmanovic when he came to Eastern Slavonija on June

9 27th?

10 A. I knew at that point that there was a warrant that had

11 been issued.

12 Q. You testified to that. You are the deputy, or were

13 the -- you are the military assistant to the

14 Transitional Administrator.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What I am asking you is, when you were talking with

17 Mr. Dokmanovic on the 25th, two days later he comes to

18 the region and is detained by UNTAES, you say arrested

19 by the Office of the Prosecutor. Did you know when you

20 were talking to him that plans were in place to detain

21 him should he come in the next couple of days to the

22 area?

23 A. I certainly knew that was a possibility.

24 Q. Was that a possibility because a warrant was out for his

25 arrest or a possibility because plans were being made

Page 129

1 for that purpose?

2 A. I knew it was a possibility because there was a warrant

3 for his arrest.

4 Q. Of course.

5 A. With regards to plans --

6 Q. This is the first time that this happened in this area,

7 is that not so?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. I am asking you, did you know at this time that plans

10 were in place to detain Mr. Dokmanovic if he came in the

11 next two days?

12 A. There were plans that if a war criminal were to enter

13 Eastern Slavonija --

14 Q. I realise that and I realise there was a warrant for his

15 arrest. You are the military assistant to the

16 Transitional Administrator. It seems to me if plans

17 were in place to detain him, you would have known about

18 it two days before he comes. Maybe I am wrong.

19 A. No, I am just trying to remember the incident clearly,

20 because I want to make sure I give the court --

21 Q. It is the first time it happened. I thought it ought to

22 stick in your mind. It was not that long ago.

23 A. At that point in time I knew that there would be a

24 likelihood or a possibility of him being detained.

25 Q. You spoke with him about setting up a meeting with

Page 130

1 Mr. Klein to discuss property matters of Serbs.

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. It is your testimony that Mr. Klein intended on going

4 through with that meeting, is that not so?

5 A. That is correct; in other words when we scheduled it, it

6 was our intent that Mr. Klein would be in Vukovar and be

7 available for that meeting.

8 Q. When did you first hear about the possibility of

9 Mr. Dokmanovic coming to Eastern Slavonija to talk with

10 Mr. Klein about property matters?

11 A. On 24th June.

12 Q. Who told you about that?

13 A. Representatives from the Tribunal that were working in

14 Eastern Slavonija.

15 Q. Did they tell you that should he come, they wanted

16 UNTAES to detain him for the purposes of being arrested?

17 A. They indicated that if he did come they requested our

18 assistance.

19 Q. Did you at that time promise that you would give that

20 assistance?

21 A. I indicated that we would co-operate with them as we

22 were mandated.

23 Q. You referred to the resolution, the resolution that is

24 the resolution dated January 15th 1996, it states in

25 paragraph 10, there is a military component and a

Page 131

1 civilian component. I have read through that. Can you

2 point out what subsection of 10 or 11 authorises UNTAES

3 to detain indictees of the Tribunal? I have a marked up

4 copy, but I do not mind sharing it with you.

5 A. That would be useful. (Handed).

6 Q. Do you see paragraph 10 and paragraph 11? It is on the

7 third page, I think.

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. I do not see anything specifically there, but if you

10 turn to paragraph 22, I think it is --

11 A. 21, your Honour.

12 Q. The Security Council repeats its --

13 A. In fact, paragraph 21 goes on to say:

14 "Stresses that UNTAES shall co-operate with the

15 International Tribunal in the performance of its

16 mandate, including with regard to the protection of the

17 sites identified by the Prosecutor and persons

18 conducting investigations of the International

19 Tribunal."

20 Q. And paragraph 20 reaffirms that all states shall

21 co-operate fully with the International Tribunal for the

22 former Yugoslavia and its organs in accordance with the

23 provisions of resolution 827, 1993, of 25th May 1993,

24 and the statute of the International Tribunal and shall

25 comply with requests for assistance or orders issued by

Page 132

1 the Trial Chamber under Article 29 of the statute.

2 Do you know what Article 29 of the statute

3 provides? I am sure you have not memorised it.

4 A. Unfortunately not off the top of my head.

5 Q. Article 29 says, let us see:

6 "Co-operation and judicial assistance."

7 It says in (ii):

8 "States shall comply without undue delay with any

9 request for assistance or an order issued by a Trial

10 Chamber, including but not limited to", and then

11 subsection (d) says:

12 "The arrest or detention of persons."

13 So Article 29 specifically mentions that States

14 have a duty to arrest or detain persons, but it is your

15 position that UNTAES has that responsibility as well

16 because of the obligation to co-operate under

17 paragraph 21 of this resolution; is that correct?

18 A. That is correct. As I best understand it, from a

19 layman's point of view, the Republic of Croatia does not

20 exert sovereignty over the area known as Eastern

21 Slavonija, Baranja and Western Srem but typically the

22 sovereignty that would be exercised by a nation for that

23 particular land mass that I just described, is the

24 responsibility of the United Nations and in particular

25 UNTAES, so my understanding would be that UNTAES would

Page 133

1 be functioning as a state, or the executive authority,

2 or the organisation that has sovereignty and is

3 responsible until it is fully reintegrated into the

4 Republic of Croatia, so that it would have the same

5 obligations as a State would in performance of its

6 duties and responsibilities.

7 Q. So that UNTAES would have authority to arrest an

8 indictee of the Tribunal in Eastern Slavonija; is that

9 not so?

10 A. That would be my understanding. Further that the police

11 force in that region, which is called the Transitional

12 Police Force or the TPF, is specifically responsible to

13 the Transitional Administrator and not to the Republic

14 of Croatia, so that in the administration of the -- what

15 I will call policing functions, that that is UNTAES's

16 responsibility.

17 Q. Do you know whether UNTAES has received any complaint

18 from Croatia regarding the detention and subsequent

19 arrest by the Prosecution's office of Mr. Dokmanovic?

20 A. To the best of my knowledge I do not have any knowledge

21 of a complaint that has been received by UNTAES from the

22 Republic of Croatia relative to this case.

23 Q. The basic agreement that is referred to in that

24 resolution; is that an agreement then between Croatia

25 and the Serbian community? Are you familiar at all with

Page 134

1 that basic agreement, and if so, does it contain any

2 matters that perhaps relate to the detention and arrest

3 of Mr. Dokmanovic? We have not been provided with a copy

4 of it. That is why I am asking you.

5 A. I am familiar with that agreement, your Honour. It is

6 the basic agreement, some time referred to as the

7 (inaudible) agreement. It was signed on 12th November

8 1995. It called for a period of up to two years,

9 actually specifically written as one year, and if either

10 party decided or requested that it be extended, that

11 could have a full term of two years. It was an

12 agreement between the government of Croatia and the

13 local Serbian community in Eastern Slavonija, Baranja

14 and Western Srem and an agreement that was witnessed by

15 ambassador Peter Galbraith of the United Nations and

16 special representative Thorwald Stoltenberg from the

17 United Nations. It was an agreement signed to prevent

18 further military conflict and lead towards more peaceful

19 process of reintegration of that area back into the

20 Republic of Croatia.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Maybe we will take a look at it and make a

22 determination for ourselves. Are there additional

23 questions, Mr. Niemann?

24 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila?

Page 135

1 Further cross-examined by MR. FILA

2 Q. I would just like to clarify one point. Did the

3 Minister of Foreign Affairs of Yugoslavia protest

4 against the arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic? Is it the position

5 of Yugoslavia that you have violated its sovereignty?

6 I am referring to Mr. Milutinovic. I have his letter.

7 A. I am familiar with Minister Milutinovic, as we have met

8 many times. We did receive a letter from Mr. Milutinovic

9 in protest.

10 Q. What does it say?

11 A. I do not recall the full text of his letter/fax to

12 Transitional Administrator Klein, but it was a letter of

13 protest.

14 I must, however, go on to say that in a subsequent

15 meeting with the most senior authorities of the Serbian

16 government that this matter was specifically discussed

17 between transitional Administrator Klein and senior

18 Serbian government officials, and in that meeting, after

19 a discussion, there was no continued protest or hard

20 feelings or a continued adverse situation that was

21 created as a result of this apprehension and arrest.

22 Q. Excuse me, has this protest been withdrawn? What was

23 the reason why there was no bad blood? Did

24 Mr. Milutinovic withdraw the protest, if that is how

25 things stand? I know for a fact that he did not. The

Page 136

1 Minister of Foreign Affairs of Yugoslavia, that is

2 Mr. Milutinovic and it is an independent and sovereign

3 State. So, has this protest been withdrawn?

4 A. In an official sense, via correspondence or a follow on

5 letter, I have no knowledge of that. However, I need to

6 point to a meeting between President Milosevic, Foreign

7 Minister Milutinovic and Transitional Minister Klein

8 when the matter was discussed, and upon conclusion of

9 that meeting there were no indications of a continued

10 protest or any further action by the Serbian

11 government.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, if this relates -- do you have

13 additional questions? I wanted to refer to Exhibit 11.

14 MR. FILA: I am finishing. What was the response among the

15 population after the arrest of Mr. Dokmanovic in the

16 territory controlled by UNTAES? Was there any

17 harassment? Did you receive protests from any

18 organisations and did the people start to move out more

19 rapidly and is this the reason why you had discussions

20 with Mr. Milosevic?

21 A. Let me start with your last question, I will work

22 backwards. No, that specifically was not the reason we

23 had the meeting with President Milosevic. This

24 particular case was one of a whole list of issues. The

25 Transitional Administrator meets with both the President

Page 137

1 of Croatia and the President, at that point in time, of

2 Serbia on a routine basis to discuss issues, since this

3 is a region that involves ethnic groups, both ethnic

4 groups, and is also on a border situation. It was not a

5 specific meeting to talk about this case.

6 As it relates to the reaction by the local

7 residents within the region, initially there was a

8 concern that was voiced by the citizens. Yes, I believe

9 we did receive at least one letter of protest and that

10 may have been from Dr Stanimirovic, one of the local

11 leaders, or Mr. Vujinovic, I do not recall exactly who

12 drafted it, but there was some concern --

13 Q. Stanimirovic?

14 A. It could very well be. I do not recall at this specific

15 time. The key point though was that there was some what

16 I would call mild reaction, the duration was very short,

17 for a couple of days, and it is difficult to tell

18 whether the reaction was specific to the individual or

19 more to the apprehension of suspected war criminals in

20 general. However, I will be quite frank with you, any

21 adverse reaction, which again I will classify as mild,

22 dissipated very quickly. In fact the reaction

23 throughout the population was what I will call mixed, in

24 that there were both people who were concerned and

25 people who were -- who realised that it was the

Page 138

1 international community's responsibility to exercise

2 indictments that were issued from this court, so that

3 there was not a consensus on the region as a whole with

4 regard to the reaction of this specific incident.

5 Additionally, it was reported subsequent to this

6 arrest that individuals -- certain individuals were

7 further concerned who may or may not have participated

8 in some kind of illegal activities, exited the region

9 after this particular case, so the reaction was mixed,

10 and at best, it was mild and quickly dissipated.

11 Q. My last question: since we know to speed things up that

12 there is a police force that is under UNTAES's control,

13 it is a mixed Serbian and Croatian police force; is that

14 correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Can this police force effect arrests or do you have to

17 call the UNTAES soldiers to effect arrests?

18 A. No, the police can arrest people.

19 MR. FILA: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

21 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: When we return from recess we will hear

23 from the Registrar. I wanted her to clarify some

24 matters regarding the warrant for arrest. Then we will

25 hear closing submissions from the parties and we would

Page 139

1 like to finish by 5.30, if we can. Everyone would like

2 us to finish by 5.30 but we cannot continue into

3 tomorrow because there is one courtroom and there are two

4 trials going on. Relating to Defence Exhibit 11,

5 Mr. Williamson, you had objected to Defence Exhibit 11

6 before which was -- was that the protest from the

7 Foreign Minister of Yugoslavia?

8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I do not believe either one of

9 those came from Yugoslavia. One of them was a letter

10 from Mr. Stanimirovic, who is the leader of the local

11 Serbs in Eastern Slavonija, and one was from a

12 non-governmental organisation. It is my understanding

13 that Mr. Fila had previously submitted the letter from

14 Mr. Milutinovic.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. We will stand until recess

16 until 4.45. You are permanently excused. Thank you.

17 (The witness withdrew)

18 (4.30 pm)

19 (A short break)

20 (4.45 pm)

21 JUDGE McDONALD: I have asked the Registrar to be present at

22 this hearing at this point in time to explain the

23 circumstances surrounding what is in evidence as Defence

24 Exhibit 13, that is the warrant for arrest, one version

25 is in Serbo-Croatian, the other is in English. Mrs. De

Page 140

1 Sampaya? Are we not operating? Is there nothing on the

2 monitors? We took a rather short break in the interests

3 of trying to finish up at 5.30. (Pause).

4 As I indicated, I have asked the Registrar to be

5 present at the hearing to speak to Defence Exhibit 13

6 which is the warrant for arrest for Mr. Dokmanovic.

7 There is a copy in Serbo-Croatian and a copy in English

8 that is a part of Defence Exhibit 13. Mrs. De Sampaya?

9 MRS. DE SAMPAYA: Thank you. As I have understood the

10 question to be is what is the status of the Exhibit 13.

11 There is an original warrant of arrest signed on

12 3rd April 1996 by Judge Riad that was not disclosed and

13 that was sent later, in July 1996, to UNTAES. My view

14 is that the original document, the original order by the

15 judge, which was signed by him, is a version, it is a

16 warrant of arrest in the English language. A copy had

17 been attached in Serbo-Croatian. As you may appreciate,

18 at the Registry, we are not able to read and to verify

19 whether the exact wording of the translation is

20 correct. It now appears that that translation in

21 Serbo-Croatian was based upon an error, although it

22 carries the name of the addressee correctly, as it has

23 been addressed to UNTAES it was further the version

24 which was to be directed to the Croatian government --

25 I mean the translation, that is, but I understand, too,

Page 141

1 that has been corrected.

2 It is a mistake, without any doubt, and as we all

3 know we try to reduce the number of mistakes that we

4 human beings make, but it is simply a translation and it

5 is not an original document that was in any way wrong.

6 The original document as signed by Judge Riad on

7 3rd April, and later forwarded, is the correct version,

8 but that is in the English language. Thank you.

9 (Pause).

10 JUDGE McDONALD: As I understand it, Mrs. De Sampaya, then

11 subsequently when it was learned that the Serbo-Croatian

12 version of the English warrant that was signed by

13 Judge Riad on April 3rd 1996, when it was discovered

14 that that Serbo-Croatian copy only indicated that it was

15 to be sent to the Republic of Croatia, that that was

16 subsequently amended and the one in Serbo-Croatian that

17 is now a part of the Registry files indicates that it is

18 to be sent to both UNTAES and to the Republic of

19 Croatia; is that correct?

20 MRS. DE SAMPAYA: It was not sent to Croatia because it was

21 an order by the judge telling us that there was no need

22 to disclose it to and send it to the Republic of

23 Croatia.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. It need not be made a record in

25 these proceedings if it is in the files of the Registry,

Page 142

1 and, of course, the Defence and the Prosecution will

2 have an opportunity to obtain a copy at this time,

3 because it is not under seal any longer; is that

4 correct?

5 MRS. DE SAMPAYA: I understand that copies have been sent to

6 the parties, to the parties here present.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: The corrected one?

8 MRS. DE SAMPAYA: The corrected version, yes. Mr. Fila, are

9 you saying that you have received a copy of the

10 corrected Serbo-Croatian warrant of arrest, the one that

11 should correspond to the one signed by Judge Riad on

12 April 3rd 1996 in English?

13 MR. FILA: Your Honour, there was an objection that at the

14 moment of arrest Mr. Dokmanovic received a warrant of

15 arrest which clearly said that he should be arrested

16 about the State of Croatia. I do not care about the

17 corrections made later. At the moment of arrest

18 Mr. Dokmanovic is supposed to receive a correct version.

19 Since I have not been arrested by anybody yet, I do not

20 need to receive the amended version. We are emphasising

21 this to you for a simple reason, that in this document

22 on three different occasions the word UNTAES was

23 translated with Croatia. It is impossible to make such

24 an error and it is not a minor error, white or green or

25 another colour. UNTAES cannot be translated as the

Page 143

1 Republic of Croatia. That is why we are indicating

2 this, because this was a deliberate error. They did not

3 know that there was a Mr. Knezevic who would see this,

4 because he was a Serb -- to believe he was arrested by

5 the state of Croatia. He received it in Serbo-Croatian

6 because he does not speak English.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you mean Mr. Dokmanovic who would receive

8 this? Okay, fine. Mr. Niemann, do you have any comment

9 regarding this matter?

10 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Very good. Thank you very much for coming,

12 Mrs. De Sampaya. If there are no questions, then let us

13 continue with closing remarks. Mr. Fila?

14 MR. FILA: Your Honour, respecting the time as agreed upon,

15 I intend to be very brief, because everything that we

16 had to say had already been submitted in writing and we

17 have, both the Prosecution and ourselves, we have all

18 changed our opinion several times.

19 The first objection was the territory where the

20 arrest was carried out, because that territory is not

21 the territory controlled by UNTAES, and that, I believe,

22 is undeniable, that both Dokmanovic and Knezevic, not

23 the jury but defector, were deprived of their freedom

24 outside the checkpoint of UNTAES forces.

25 Second, that UNTAES organised an ambush that was

Page 144

1 also never disputed.

2 Also third, from Mr. Curtis's testimony, it was

3 obvious that he went to see him to lure him for, we

4 claim that according to the UN resolution, UNTAES does

5 not have such authority.

6 Fifth , that Rule 59 of this honourable court, the

7 Tribunal, cannot overpower a UN resolution.

8 Sixth, that examples given such as Adolf Eichman,

9 Klaus Barbie and others represent the behaviour of a

10 particular state. The security council reacted to such

11 behaviours of different states, finding that the

12 sovereignty of Argentina was threatened and the Israeli

13 terrorist forces attack at the Entebe airport resulted

14 in a convention of terrorism which banned such actions

15 for the future.

16 Then this honourable Tribunal does not represent

17 the court of a State, it represents courts of all the

18 States. It is binding even for the States that are not

19 UN members, so this is a court of all courts, and it has

20 to act in such a way that all the UN member States are

21 respected by the statute of your court. Your Honour

22 sanctions are foreseen as well as consequences for those

23 not honouring requests of the court. In Eichman's case,

24 Israel could not apply Argentina's sanctions, but the

25 security council could apply sanctions against my

Page 145

1 country and they have done it for a few years. I am not

2 talking about individual actions of the United States,

3 but we did have UN sanctions, security council

4 sanctions.

5 Therefore, there is a question of lack of

6 co-operation of Yugoslavia with this Tribunal. We have

7 submitted to you a citation of the Yugoslav constitution

8 and that is disputed between the authorities of

9 Yugoslavia and the Tribunal, if the co-operation with

10 this Tribunal includes extradition, which is the term we

11 use, of citizens of Yugoslavia, but only citizens of

12 Yugoslavia.

13 There was never any problem in our State in

14 extraditing persons who are not citizens of the Federal

15 Republic of Yugoslavia at the request of the Tribunal;

16 for example, Erdemovic was not kidnapped by UNTAES or

17 through one Curtis, but he was sent at the request of

18 the Tribunal and brought here. Erdemovic was born and

19 lived in the same republic as Mr. Dokmanovic. If

20 Yugoslavia had refused to extradite Mr. Dokmanovic, they

21 would have risked sanctions.

22 Therefore, there is no basis in the claim of the

23 Prosecution that Yugoslavia is not co-operating when it

24 comes to individuals who are not citizens of

25 Yugoslavia. Such an operation, in addition to being

Page 146

1 very damaging in its consequences in people leaving the

2 area, I will just say that if criminals are running

3 away, that is damaging, but there have been mistaken

4 identifications at this court. I will remind Mr. Niemann

5 of Goran Lajic, who had spent almost three months here

6 and it was determined that that was not the person.

7 Then persons who are guilty and persons who are not

8 guilty are both fleeing. This was a badly executed

9 operation, an operation that does not contribute to the

10 reputation of this court or the UN or anybody else.

11 That is the reason why we are reacting in this way.

12 Confidence is threatened, safety of people is

13 threatened. I have said and Mr. Williamson has answered,

14 I hope that nobody would have any reactions against

15 these children from UNTAES because they really have done

16 nothing they can be guilty of, but what is dangerous is

17 what could happen tomorrow when another Curtis wants to

18 talk to somebody else. Sovereignty of Yugoslavia has

19 been violated. The UN symbol has been abused because UN

20 vehicles were used to lure, if nothing else,

21 Mr. Dokmanovic and he was later kidnapped. A trap was

22 organised in Erdut.

23 You have heard statements of three witnesses.

24 There are many differences in their statements.

25 Mr. Interpreter, whose name we are not using, said that

Page 147

1 Mr. Hryshcyhshyn offered to send vehicles to Sombor where

2 Dokmanovic lived. Curtis confirmed this, but

3 Hryshcyhshyn said no, so it is obvious that

4 Mr. Dokmanovic was not a guest of Mr. Klein's, but rather

5 that there was an organised effort to bring him there so

6 that he could be legitimately arrested. Nobody can

7 convince me that from April 3rd 1996, His Honour Judge

8 Riad, on the back page of the arrest warrant, he did say

9 where he was, where Mr. Dokmanovic was. A fax

10 transmission was enough for the police to arrest him,

11 because if you were listening to Mr. Hryshchyshyn, it

12 would seem that there is nobody else in the territory of

13 Slavonija except for UNTAES.

14 There are very strong police forces directly

15 commanded by Mr. Klein and they could have arrested him

16 in the municipality with no problems. What was the

17 reason for this delay from April 3rd until June? Was

18 there an important arrival of somebody from the US

19 administration or something else, I do not know. But

20 the fact that this was done very badly, that my

21 country's integrity was violated, that the reaction of

22 even the Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Madam

23 Hodak, the assistant, her view was that they could not

24 do it this way, to stroll around Croatia and Serbia any

25 way they wanted.

Page 148

1 I do not think there is any State in the world

2 that would allow people to roam around and arrest people

3 without the State knowing. I have filed several

4 verdicts. I understood the cases of Barbie and Eichman,

5 but that is one State who sent its forces to another

6 State and did what they did and the UN did condemn it.

7 In this case, with everything I have already

8 written, I do believe that if you appreciate this type

9 of arrest, I think this will be very damaging and

10 confusing. There is no problem for him to return to

11 Yugoslavia and for you to instruct the Yugoslav court to

12 send him back immediately. Then there would be a

13 legitimate decision, and there could be no prevention

14 for this because he is not a citizen of Yugoslavia, he

15 is a refugee with a fully recognised refugee status.

16 That is not the same as the status of a citizen.

17 I believe there is no need for me to explain this to

18 you.

19 From the documents I submitted it is clearly

20 visible where he was born and which citizenship he has

21 before the war. During the Socialist Federal Republic

22 of Yugoslavia, we had double citizenship of the

23 Republic; for example I was a citizen of Macedonia.

24 I am of Greek descent, I was a Macedonian citizen,

25 I requested, I guess two years ago, citizenship of

Page 149

1 Yugoslavia and now I am protected, according to our

2 judicial theory. I do not need to go into that,

3 Mr. Cassese would not perhaps agree, but that does not

4 matter.

5 In any case, I believe this decision is very

6 important and it is important such actions are not

7 repeated, because I am afraid that concerns for all of

8 us, for those young men doing their jobs would be

9 justified. Thank you very much. I have tried to be

10 brief.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Where was Mr. Dokmanovic born? You

12 indicated it is in the documents you have submitted,

13 I am not sure which exhibit. You can tell me.

14 MR. FILA: Yes. In his identity card, and his passport, both

15 have been submitted. It is the carte d'identite in

16 French, it says from Vukovar. All the documents are

17 from Vukovar. He would not be able to be the head of

18 the Municipal Assembly unless he was from Vukovar.

19 There was no need to do this and I believe this should

20 be said publicly. No need whatsoever. The tape

21 I requested, I did not request it to threaten the lives

22 of those children, of course not, but do believe me that

23 the mistake has been made and it is a grievous mistake.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, what are the legal consequences of

Page 150

1 the delay? The arrest warrant was signed by Judge Riad

2 in April 1996. According to the employment papers of

3 Mr. Dokmanovic's residence was in Sombor as of July

4 something in 1996. What are the legal consequences of

5 the delay?

6 MR. FILA: I will explain --

7 JUDGE McDONALD: I understand factually they could have

8 arrested earlier, but what legal rights have been

9 violated because of the delay as opposed to the method

10 of arrest?

11 MR. FILA: Regarding the fact that he enjoys the status of a

12 refugee in Yugoslavia, any person residing in the

13 territory of Yugoslavia has a certain status, is under

14 protection and control of that State. He was not

15 residing in Yugoslavia illegally. Even then people

16 cannot be arrested there. He had a recognised refugee

17 status, because in 1997 there was a list that appeared

18 of 150 names that contained both his name and

19 Mr. Knezevic's. His wife crossed over in July, crossed

20 over to Sombor, and Dokmanovic had to work for another

21 six months, because that was what he was obliged to do.

22 That is why his contract finished in October. He had a

23 traffic accident. UNTAES conducted an on site

24 investigation because there was nobody else. He could

25 have been arrested by anyone at any time. He had a

Page 151

1 photograph taken with Mr. Klein. He took part in the

2 negotiations. I see no need for international

3 incidents, and all this row, and so many people leaving

4 Baranja for this. The reason for Milosevic, Milutinovic

5 and Klein's meeting was exactly to calm the situation

6 down. Maybe this could be off the record. People have

7 invested incredible efforts to keep the people there, to

8 prevent them from fleeing, myself personally and

9 Mr. Vujin.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: What legal rights have been violated by

11 this delay in the arrest? That is my question.

12 I understand you are saying there was no need to wait

13 that long. I do not know that it has been established

14 that there was not a need. I do not know whether the

15 evidence would show nothing as I can recall as to what

16 was the situation in April 1996, who was available to

17 execute arrest warrants or whatever. Rather than talk

18 about what happened --

19 MR. FILA: Well UNTAES says --

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Is he entitled to be arrested within 30

21 days from the execution of the arrest warrant or within

22 a certain period of time, is that what you are saying?

23 MR. FILA: No, I want to say that through a UN procedure

24 through the statute, there is a foreseen procedure of

25 arrests. He was a refugee in the territory of an

Page 152

1 independent state called Yugoslavia. Arrests cannot be

2 carried out on its territory. A request should have

3 been made to Yugoslavia to carry out an arrest. His

4 right was violated because he was arrested in an

5 inhumane way. I am explaining that this would not have

6 happened if this was done properly, if ordinary police

7 had come, because UNTAES does have police, if they had

8 come to arrest him and we would be confirming today or

9 tomorrow whether he was guilty or not.

10 I believe that an illegal arrest was a violation

11 of the sovereignty of Yugoslavia, he was arrested in a

12 very tricky way, and that is simply not acceptable.

13 That is why I made all these submissions, and that is

14 why I believe the UN foresaw all the ways in which an

15 arrest can be carried out. Our Security Council

16 resolution says exactly what UNTAES can do. It does not

17 say that UNTAES can arrest, organise ambushes,

18 et cetera, especially not military ones.

19 Finally, my claim is that the rules of this court

20 cannot carry more power than UN resolutions. Everything

21 that happened actually resulted in an illegal arrest.

22 That is the difference I am trying to indicate. Until

23 October, he was available, even until February or March.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: So it is not your position that an accused

25 is entitled to be arrested within a certain period of

Page 153

1 time, it is your position that Article 29 of the statute

2 prescribes the sole method for arresting an accused and

3 that is to seek the co-operation of a state and that

4 UNTAES lacks the authority as well as the method for

5 arresting --

6 MR. FILA: UNTAES is not a state, and third, and you also

7 have the fact that this warrant of arrest has to be

8 carried out without a delay, that the State is requested

9 to carry it out without undue delay and not when

10 somebody finds it necessary to carry it out in a year,

11 two or three. That is so.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: So are you saying then the fact then of a

13 sealed indictment prevents a State from complying with

14 its obligation under Article 29, because it says

15 "executed without undue delay". Does that mean undue

16 delay from the time it receives it or undue delay from

17 the time it is signed by the judge?

18 MR. FILA: Yes.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Which one?

20 MR. FILA: It cannot be submitted to them because they do not

21 know, but if a judge issues a warrant of arrest it has

22 to be served to the State where the indictee is. I do

23 not think that indictments are hidden from States, they

24 are hidden from criminals. That is how I understand

25 it. I have not understood Rule 59 as hiding from the

Page 154

1 State, because States are obliged and they have to carry

2 it out. Otherwise it would have a different meaning,

3 that would mean that we would have parachute forces and

4 we would be carrying out different assaults in different

5 States to pull someone out.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Mr. Niemann, Mr. Williamson?

7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honours, there has been a substantial

8 amount of written material which has already been

9 submitted on this matter, so I will rely to a large

10 extent on what you already have before you, but I would,

11 however, like to address some of the issues that were

12 raised by Mr. Fila in his argument.

13 In response to his contention that the arrest

14 occurred on the territory of the Federal Republic of

15 Yugoslavia, he said in his written submissions that the

16 arrest occurred de facto on the territory of the FRY

17 because Mr. Dokmanovic had entered the vehicle on that

18 side of the river. I think from the testimony you have

19 heard today there is some ambiguity as to where the

20 border is located. Clearly all of the testimony

21 indicates that the vehicles were located between the

22 border post on the FRY side and the border post on the

23 Croatian side. At that point in time Mr. Dokmanovic and

24 Mr. Knezevic got into the vehicle voluntarily. According

25 to Mr. Dokmanovic's testimony, up until the point that he

Page 155

1 was actually removed from the vehicle, he still believed

2 he was going to a meeting with Mr. Klein. There was

3 nothing that occurred during the course of this trip

4 from the Bogojevo side of the river to the Erdut

5 compound which alerted Mr. Dokmanovic to the fact that he

6 was already under arrest. In fact the arrest did occur

7 on Croatian territory, it occurred at Erdut, a kilometre

8 and a half from the bridge.

9 In relation to his argument that UNTAES does not

10 have the authority to make arrests and that it is not in

11 its mandate, I have two points on this. First of all,

12 UNTAES was in possession of a valid warrant of arrest,

13 signed by a judge of this Tribunal. The warrant was

14 issued pursuant to Article 59 bis -- sorry, Rule 59 bis

15 which was a rule promulgated by the judges of the

16 Tribunal; they had in their possession, they therefore

17 had an order of this court to act.

18 It is our contention that they would have been in

19 contravention of a court order had they failed to act.

20 Furthermore, if you read paragraph 21 of the mandate, it

21 states:

22 "Stresses that UNTAES shall co-operate with the

23 International Tribunal in the performance of its

24 mandate, including with regard to the protection of

25 sites identified by the Prosecutor and persons

Page 156

1 conducting investigations for the International

2 Tribunal."

3 When the UNTAES mandate was enacted by the

4 Security Council in resolution 1037, the issue of arrest

5 was discussed in the United Nations. The representative

6 for Honduras, Mr. Martinez Blanco, stated:

7 "My delegation is of the strong view that any

8 individual who has committed crimes against humanity

9 must be brought to justice. We note that UNTAES will be

10 the sole governing authority in Eastern Slavonija.

11 During the transitional period, and that in accordance

12 with the provisions of this draft resolution and the

13 statute of the International Tribunal, it therefore has

14 the authority to deal with war crimes committed in the

15 former Yugoslavia."

16 Additionally the representative for Egypt,

17 Mr. El-Arabi, stated:

18 "With respect to paragraph 21 of the draft

19 resolution, co-operation between UNTAES and the

20 International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia should

21 be comprehensive, with a view to arresting those

22 indicted by the Tribunal and handing them over for

23 trial."

24 No other state contested this interpretation of

25 the UNTAES mandate and it was enacted accordingly.

Page 157

1 JUDGE McDONALD: You realise, Mr. Williamson, that the

2 representative from UNTAES, the military assistant to

3 the Transitional Administrator, has testified that

4 UNTAES did not arrest Mr. Dokmanovic, that the office of

5 the Tribunal Prosecutor arrested him. Do you take a

6 different position?

7 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would say it was a joint operation. You

8 have all seen the videotape and I think it speaks for

9 itself --

10 JUDGE McDONALD: No, it does not.

11 MR. WILLIAMSON: He was placed in physical custody by

12 soldiers of UNTAES.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: When was Mr. Dokmanovic detained, first

14 detained?

15 MR. WILLIAMSON: At the Erdut compound.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Who detained him?

17 MR. WILLIAMSON: UNTAES military personnel.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Was he arrested at that point? Was he

19 under arrest at that point?

20 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would consider that he was under arrest,

21 yes. He certainly was not free to leave.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: He was not read his rights.

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: He was read his rights immediately

24 thereafter.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: He was read his rights when he got to the

Page 158

1 Erdut base.

2 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is where I am saying was the point he

3 was detained, at the Erdut base.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: When he got in the UN vehicle, that was

5 when he was detained; is that correct?

6 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, I would disagree with that. I am saying

7 that he was detained at the point that he was removed

8 from the UN vehicle at the Erdut compound.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Before then then he would have been free to

10 get out of the vehicle and leave?

11 MR. WILLIAMSON: I cannot say that.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: You have to say that.

13 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think that is speculation on my part, your

14 Honour, as to how the soldiers in that vehicle would

15 have reacted at that point. The issue I do not think

16 arose. The belief was that if Mr. Dokmanovic entered

17 this vehicle voluntarily, that there was going to be no

18 reason for him to try to leave and, in fact, he did not

19 try to leave, so it is speculation for me to say that

20 the soldiers who were driving the vehicle would have

21 locked the doors and in some way physically detained him

22 within the vehicle had he wished to get out on the

23 Yugoslav side of the bridge.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, please do not talk while

25 Mr. Williamson is submitting his closing remarks.

Page 159

1 Mr. Dokmanovic was detained at some point.

2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Our position is that Mr. Dokmanovic was

3 detained when he was removed from the vehicle.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: When was he arrested?

5 MR. WILLIAMSON: At that same moment.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. Who arrested him?

7 MR. WILLIAMSON: He was arrested by military personnel from

8 UNTAES and by representatives of the Office of the

9 Prosecutor.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: What authority does the Prosecutor's office

11 have to arrest indictees?

12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Under Rule 59 bis --

13 JUDGE McDONALD: That is a rule. What authority in the

14 statute? Article 15.1, I think it is, says that the

15 Prosecutor shall -- let us see. 16.1 details the

16 authorities in the statute now of the Prosecutor. It

17 says:

18 "The Prosecutor shall be responsible for the

19 investigation and Prosecution of persons responsible for

20 serious violations of international humanitarian law

21 committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

22 since 1991."

23 There is nothing else in Article 16 that speaks to

24 anything near arrest, detention et cetera, it just says:

25 "The Prosecutor shall be independent, the Office

Page 160

1 of the Prosecutor shall be composed of", et cetera,

2 et cetera.

3 So 16.1 gives the Prosecutor general

4 responsibility for the investigation and prosecution of

5 persons. Rule 59 bis does provide that the arrest

6 warrant shall be provided to authorities and to the

7 Prosecutor who, upon being taken into custody, shall be

8 transferred.

9 MR. WILLIAMSON: It says:

10 "Order for his transfer to the Tribunal in the

11 event that he be taken into custody by that authority or

12 an international body or the Prosecutor."

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Taken into custody is the same as arrest?

14 MR. WILLIAMSON: That would be my contention.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: So it is 59 bis that gives the Prosecutor

16 the authority to arrest?

17 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is correct.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: But you realise that rules, as Mr. Fila

19 argued, cannot go beyond the powers vested in the

20 Prosecutor or, indeed, go beyond the statute in any

21 way. Where in the statute does the Prosecutor have this

22 authority?

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, Article 15 of the statute

24 provides for the adoption of Rules of Procedure and

25 Evidence by the judges for the conduct of the pre-trial

Page 161

1 phase of the proceedings; trials and appeals; the

2 admission of evidence; the protection of victims and

3 witnesses; and other appropriate matters. Apparently

4 the judges of the Tribunal en banque decided that this

5 was an appropriate rule to be enacted and was necessary

6 for the functioning of the Tribunal.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: Do not throw it back to the judges, with

8 all due respect. Article 29 talks about arrests and

9 that speaks of States co-operating, States complying

10 with orders including the arrest. Can you tell me where

11 is the authority in the statute?

12 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I am not aware of any specific

13 provision in the statute which authorises the Prosecutor

14 or anyone other than States to make arrests. However,

15 I think the rules have a presumption of validity and it

16 is within the implied powers of the Tribunal to enact

17 rules that are in accordance with the statute.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Article 20.2 says:

19 "A person against whom an indictment has been

20 confirmed shall, pursuant to an order or an arrest of

21 the International Tribunal, be taken into custody,

22 immediately informed of the charges against him and

23 transferred to the International Tribunal".

24 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am sorry, Article 22?

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Article 20.2. Article 20.2 does not say a

Page 162

1 State. Article 29 says a State. Article 16.1 speaks

2 generally of the Prosecutor's authorities. Find me

3 somewhere in the statute that will give the Prosecutor

4 authority. If you do not feel there is any authority

5 except in the rules, stand by that.

6 MR. WILLIAMSON: My position is that the rules have been

7 enacted pursuant to the statute and that the rules allow

8 for the Prosecutor to make arrests, that this is within

9 the implied powers of the Tribunal.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: You realise that rules that do not have a

11 sufficient basis in the statute can be considered

12 invalid? Judges make the rules, but judges make

13 mistakes, do we not? I say I do at least, so I am

14 asking you, if you are looking for authority just in a

15 rule, I think it might be best for you to ground it in

16 the statute, because that is what judges do when we pass

17 the rules. I would suggest that perhaps you look at

18 Article 20.2 or 16.1.

19 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would agree that 20.2

20 arguably would allow the Prosecutor to make arrests, or

21 at least to take persons into custody, which is, in

22 effect, what occurred here.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: It is your position then that it was a

24 joint arrest, that both UNTAES and the OTP, Office of

25 the Prosecutor, arrested.

Page 163

1 MR. WILLIAMSON: My position is that UNTAES military

2 personnel physically placed Mr. Dokmanovic under arrest.

3 They physically removed him from the vehicle, searched

4 him, placed handcuffs on him. At that point in time, an

5 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor advised

6 Mr. Dokmanovic of his rights and he was transported,

7 together with representatives of the Office of the

8 Prosecutor and UNTAES military personnel to an airport

9 in Croatia from which he departed to fly to The Hague.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Then when he departed from Croatia he was

11 in an aeroplane with just Prosecution personnel and two

12 pilots, who I gather were UNTAES people, I do not know.

13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Belgian airforce.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay, whatever. At least at that point

15 they were solely -- Mr. Dokmanovic was solely in the

16 custody of the Prosecution's office until he arrived in

17 Holland and then he was turned over to the Dutch police;

18 is that correct?

19 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is correct.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: So there was a joint arrest, is that what

21 you are saying? Are you saying that UNTAES detained

22 him, obtained physical control over him and then the

23 arrest took place when the reading of the rights

24 occurred and that that was accomplished by the

25 Prosecutor's Office?

Page 164

1 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would say that is when the arrest was

2 completed, at the present he was advised of his rights.

3 JUDGE McDONALD: And the Prosecution did that?

4 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is correct.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: If UNTAES had never appeared on the scene,

6 would the Prosecutor have the authority to detain and

7 arrest Mr. Dokmanovic?

8 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would say that they would, again under

9 Rule 59 bis.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Supported by?

11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Article 20.2.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Something in the statute. Excuse me then.

13 I interrupted you because you were talking about that

14 point and it seemed to me that differed from the

15 testimony of the witness from the transitional

16 administration.

17 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would also argue that

18 Mr. Hryshchyshyn is not in a position to speak for UNTAES

19 as a whole.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Then do not invite him here to speak. You

21 have other people who can tell us, with the greatest

22 deal of authority, about UNTAES, but this is the only

23 person we have. That is why I asked him those

24 questions. I think it is unfair to offer a witness from

25 UNTAES and then say, "He is not really competent to tell

Page 165

1 us what we want to know". We need to have people here

2 who are competent, but go ahead, Mr. Williamson.

3 MR. WILLIAMSON: The next issue, I think, that was raised by

4 Mr. Fila had to do with the sovereignty of the Federal

5 Republic of Yugoslavia. You have heard testimony that a

6 complaint was forwarded to UNTAES by Mr. Milutinovic, the

7 Foreign Minister. According to Mr. Hryshchyshyn's

8 testimony, there were further discussions at which

9 Mr. Milutinovic was present and President Milosevic was

10 present. This issue was raised and apparently it was

11 resolved in the discussions that took place.

12 It is the submission of the Prosecutor that

13 Mr. Dokmanovic has no standing to raise this issue. If

14 there is an issue of sovereignty, this is an issue

15 between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the

16 Tribunal. It has nothing to do with Mr. Dokmanovic. He

17 cannot assert rights as an individual for a State.

18 I think all of the case law maintains this.

19 Mr. Fila has provided to the court a Security

20 Council resolution which was adopted in relation to the

21 arrest of Adolf Eichman by Israeli agents when he was

22 abducted, removed from Argentina and flown back to

23 Israel. The Security Council criticised Israel for this

24 action, but more tellingly, the court in Israel upheld

25 this action. Mr. Eichman subsequently was put on trial

Page 166

1 and was executed. All of the case law consistently has

2 upheld this. Again and again the position of the courts

3 has been that individuals cannot assert the right of

4 sovereignty.

5 In relation to his comment that Croatia had

6 protested the arrest, Mr. Dokmanovic was transited

7 through Croatian territory. He left from an airport

8 outside of Osijek where Croatian police were present.

9 They were aware of what was going on. No protest was

10 made whatsoever and Mr. Dokmanovic was transported here.

11 The Croatian authorities were in a position, had they

12 wished to, to have stopped the aeroplane from taking

13 off. It was a civilian airport on Croatian territory.

14 I do not think there is any merit in the fact that

15 Croatia has protested this. In fact, the arrests did

16 occur on Croatian territory.

17 Mr. Fila has also said that another option for the

18 Tribunal was to have requested the extradition of

19 Mr. Dokmanovic, since he is not a citizen of the FRY.

20 The Office of the Prosecutor has no way of knowing where

21 he has citizenship. He is a refugee in Serbia, coming

22 from the area of Eastern Slavonija, Baranja, Western

23 Srem. Mr. Knezevic is in the exact same circumstances,

24 but according to Mr. Fila's written submissions, he is a

25 citizen of the FRY. Any enquiries we would have made as

Page 167

1 to citizenship would obviously have tipped off the

2 authorities as to what we were doing.

3 The fact is, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is

4 obligated to turn over the Tribunal anyone, regardless

5 of whether they are a FRY citizen or not. Rule 58

6 states:

7 "The obligations laid down in Article 29 of the

8 statute shall prevail over any legal impediment to the

9 surrender or transfer of the accused, or of a witness to

10 the Tribunal which may exist under the national law or

11 extradition treaties of the State concerned."

12 It does not get any clearer than that. Yugoslavia

13 has failed to co-operate with this Tribunal. The three

14 co-defendants of Mr. Dokmanovic are still there, they

15 have not turned them over. In the case of one of them,

16 Veselin Sljivancanin, he is still a Colonel in the

17 Yugoslav army. He is assigned to the Belgrade Military

18 Academy. He is an indicted war criminal training

19 officer cadets two kilometres from Slobodan Milosevic's

20 house.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you know what his citizenship is?

22 MR. WILLIAMSON: He is Montenegran, your Honour.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: I heard Mr. Dokmanovic testify at least that

24 there was no citizenship, that he was a Yugoslav and

25 that he did not -- that he did not consider that the

Page 168

1 republics did not have citizenship, but set that aside

2 for a moment. Okay, so the others have not been turned

3 over. One is a Montenegran -- what about the others?

4 MR. WILLIAMSON: The other two are Serbs.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Serbs from the Federal --

6 MR. WILLIAMSON: From Serbia proper, yes.


8 MR. WILLIAMSON: But the position of the Prosecutor is that

9 this is just a technicality; that if a warrant had been

10 directed to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, they

11 would have reacted in the same way. They would not have

12 turned over Mr. Dokmanovic. The only reason Drajan

13 Erdemovic was turned over is the fact that he was an

14 ethnic Croat. He was not a Serb, and I would contend

15 that that is the true basis of whether the Federal

16 Republic is cooperating, and it has nothing to do with

17 where someone is holding citizenship.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Does it make a difference? Is the

19 Prosecutor required to first go to a state and then wait

20 a certain period of time for the state not to execute an

21 arrest warrant and then decide on an alternative way of

22 accomplishing the arrest?

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: I do not believe we are, your Honour.

24 JUDGE McDONALD: If you have the power, you have the power.

25 If you have the authority, rather, you have the

Page 169

1 authority, it seems to me. Is that not so?

2 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is correct.

3 JUDGE McDONALD: Do we really need to go as far as the

4 Machain case and Eichman? The Machain, Supreme Court case

5 1992, basically says they are not concerned with how a

6 person gets to the court, with a very strong dissent,

7 but unless we find that Mr. Dokmanovic was kidnapped by

8 State authorities or perhaps by Prosecution authorities,

9 then we need not go that far. This is an International

10 Tribunal not bound by rules of any State, it seems to

11 me, or decisions of any State and should look for the

12 highest international standards, whether or not that is

13 the highest international standard I suppose would be

14 open to debate, but do we even need to go that far in

15 this case?

16 MR. WILLIAMSON: I would agree, your Honour, that the facts

17 in this case are not nearly as egregious as they were in

18 the Machain case. In that situation, as you said, it was

19 an abduction, as it was in Eichman. A case that we had

20 cited in one of our submissions though, I believe, is

21 much more on point. This is regarding Hartnet, which is

22 a Canadian case which I think is much more similar.

23 This is paragraph 11 on page 6 of the Prosecution

24 response of 14th August 1997. In this case, an American

25 was invited across the Canadian border to testify in

Page 170

1 front of the Ontario Securities Commission in Toronto.

2 Once he crossed the border, he was actually placed under

3 arrest and his contention was that his invitation to

4 testify was merely a ruse to get him across the border.

5 The court upheld that and said this was appropriate.

6 I think that situation is probably the closest of any of

7 the cases that we have cited and I would agree that at

8 this point in time you need not go as far as Machain, and

9 enquire into abductions. This was not that type of

10 situation. Clearly we used trickery, it was a ruse. It

11 was the intention of the Prosecutor from day one to

12 arrest Mr. Dokmanovic. From the moment Mr. Curtis got in

13 contact with him, this was exactly what we wanted to

14 accomplish.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Let me ask you a question about that. Let

16 me put it this way. Since the Prosecution either

17 arrested Mr. Dokmanovic or, at the very least,

18 participated jointly in the arrest, if the Prosecutor

19 can be analogised to a State, if a State were to lure an

20 individual into a jurisdiction through trickery or

21 through some ruse, and then execute an arrest warrant,

22 we do not go so far as to go through all of these

23 procedures first, then would that violate the accused's

24 rights, if you understand what I mean? Does it make a

25 difference whether there is State involvement in the

Page 171

1 luring of an individual; for example, if the -- I cannot

2 state it any better.

3 MR. WILLIAMSON: I follow what you are saying. I think that

4 it is going to be appropriate whether State authorities

5 are involved or not.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you know what the State of the law is in

7 the United States as to trickery, setting aside Machain?

8 MR. WILLIAMSON: I believe that it would be upheld.

9 I believe if the courts in the United States have gone

10 so far as to uphold abductions, again they would not see

11 using trickery as being as egregious.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: There is one case - - let us set it aside.

13 Okay, go ahead. You say that if the State was involved,

14 what would be the effect of that?

15 MR. WILLIAMSON: I believe it would have no effect whether it

16 was State or private individuals. In fact, I am aware

17 in the United States there are often these cases, which

18 I am sure you are familiar with from your work there, of

19 what are called bounty hunters, people who go out and

20 actually make arrests on people who have fled from their

21 bail obligations.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: That is because the individuals, though

23 usually in the statement of bail, relinquish certain

24 rights that they might otherwise have; is that not so or

25 no?

Page 172

1 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is correct, but in any event, my point

2 I was trying to make, I was not going down that road,

3 these are arrests that occur by private individuals.

4 I do not think it would be any different if those

5 arrests were to occur by State authorities.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. And the safe conduct, have you

7 addressed that issue?

8 MR. WILLIAMSON: I have not. Your Honour, I think the

9 testimony is very clear on this. Mr. Dokmanovic was not

10 given any type of guarantee of safe conduct. I think

11 that based on the circumstances, one could have been

12 implied. I do not doubt for a second that he believed

13 that he had some type of right of passage into the area

14 and out again, but the point is nothing was explicitly

15 stated in this regard. He did not ask a specific

16 question about it. Nothing was told to him. Mr. Curtis

17 has testified to that effect, Mr. Hryshchyshyn has

18 testified to that effect and Witness A, the interpreter,

19 has testified to that effect. Mr. Hryshchyshyn had

20 indicated that Mr. Dokmanovic had told him that he was

21 concerned about the Croatian authorities so what he had

22 offered was to put him in a UN vehicle which would allow

23 him to pass a checkpoint. This is not a guarantee of

24 safe passage. In any event, even had he been given some

25 type of guarantee of safe passage, it is our position

Page 173

1 that he still could have been arrested and that it would

2 have been appropriate to arrest him. There was a valid

3 order of this court, there was nothing that anyone from

4 the Office of the Prosecutor could have said or that

5 UNTAES could have said. They would have disregarded

6 this order, avoided it.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: That is very troublesome to me, because

8 this Tribunal, the Trial Chamber, has been asked to give

9 a safe conduct to one witness who appeared, and we did,

10 and we have given it to many other witnesses who

11 appeared in trials. When we do it, we are very precise

12 about the language that is used, and that is a point you

13 have not really pointed to, but you do not just give

14 safe conduct, you point out from whom the person is

15 protected in a safe conduct. The ones that we issue, we

16 would say that the Prosecution may not detain a person

17 for any acts that they committed before while they are

18 present in The Hague. If you are telling me that that

19 piece of paper means nothing?

20 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, your Honour, not at all. What I am

21 saying is that is an order of this court and that is the

22 reason that we as the Prosecutor --

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, that is very rude.

24 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is the reason that we as the Prosecutor

25 or they as the Defence file a motion requesting safe

Page 174

1 conduct from the court. That is an order from the

2 court, just as this warrant for the arrest was. My

3 point is that we as the Office of the Prosecutor have no

4 authority on our own to overrule an order of this court.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you even have an authority to grant safe

6 conduct? If, for example, this Tribunal were to

7 issue -- the arrest warrant, for example, is an

8 outstanding arrest warrant, does the Prosecution have

9 authority to give an individual the right -- freedom

10 from arrest when this court has executed an arrest

11 warrant?

12 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, we do not.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Why do you say it does not make any

14 difference, if you did give safe conduct, because you

15 would not have to honour it?

16 MR. WILLIAMSON: That is exactly it. We do not have the

17 authority to give safe conduct. Even if we had as part

18 of a ruse, it was not binding. It did not come up.

19 Mr. Dokmanovic did not request any specific safe conduct

20 or exemption from arrest by anyone. He expressed

21 concern about the Croatian authorities, that was

22 addressed. The first anyone heard of safe conduct was

23 when motions were filed by Mr. Fila to that effect,

24 saying he had received some grant of safe conduct.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: The audio and the transcript has been filed

Page 175

1 under seal. You have not admitted it or is that not

2 under seal?

3 MR. WILLIAMSON: The audio tapes?

4 JUDGE McDONALD: The audio and the transcript of it. We had

5 asked at a Status Conference that they be filed. Of

6 course, we have resolved the video issue, but the

7 transcript itself reflects what went on during the

8 arrest, that the accused was read his rights et cetera,

9 and the Prosecution has taken the position that there

10 has been no violation of rights. Has that been made a

11 part of the record for this hearing?

12 MR. WILLIAMSON: I am not sure if it has or not, your Honour.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: No, it has not. You have not offered it as

14 an exhibit, and I gather that is not under seal, the

15 audio and the transcript. Is that so? The reason is --

16 MR. WILLIAMSON: The Defence has received a copy of it.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: It should be made part of the record. When

18 we make the decision, it seems to me we should be able

19 to refer to what was told Mr. Dokmanovic, how he was

20 informed of his rights, and unless we either have it as

21 an exhibit in this proceeding or it is otherwise on

22 record and it is not sealed, then that cannot be done.

23 MR. WILLIAMSON: We would have no objection certainly to the

24 portion of the tape that deals with his advisory of

25 rights being made public. My only concern is that

Page 176

1 Mr. Dokmanovic makes a rather lengthy statement during

2 the course of the aeroplane trip back which is also

3 contained on the audio trip.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Can you meet with Mr. Fila and perhaps the

5 two of you can agree as to the portion that should be

6 admitted and make that a part of the record, so it would

7 be Prosecution exhibit whatever it may be, so that we

8 may make use of it when we draft our decision.

9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes, your Honour, I do not think that is a

10 problem.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: If there is any problem with that

12 attempting to reach an agreement, then the Trial Chamber

13 will assist you. That will then come in as a

14 Prosecution exhibit. Is there any objection to that

15 procedure, Mr. Fila?

16 MR. FILA: On the contrary, I agree fully that the parts that

17 you considered confidential in the video should be

18 considered confidential in the audio tape. I think you

19 made a decision that only in courtroom we can see the

20 video and that part that can be seen should not be

21 released in the public. I think that this is the

22 decision that you made and this is the right decision.

23 We cannot have two decisions contradicting each other.

24 I think Mr. Clint Williamson will agree with me.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: If the Chamber is to make a decision that

Page 177

1 Mr. Dokmanovic was properly advised of his rights, et

2 cetera, no one has testified to it, we need something in

3 a conclusory way.

4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Certainly, your Honour, no problem.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Very good. Well then, you meet with

6 Mr. Fila and see if agreement can be reached, and that

7 would then be admitted as a Prosecution exhibit.

8 Do you have anything else to say in a few moments,

9 Mr. Williamson?

10 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, your Honour. That is all.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Fila, do you have anything to add?

12 MR. FILA: Your Honour, just a clarification, both sides have

13 expressed their views, I would just like to clarify one

14 thing as to the nationality or citizenship of persons

15 that you mention. Mr. Sljivancanin is a citizen of

16 Republic of Serbia because he comes from Montenegra,

17 whereas Mr. Mrksic and Mr. Radic are not citizens of

18 Serbia, they are not Serbs, they live in Bosnia. So you

19 do not have the correct information. Mr. Sljivancanin is

20 protected by our constitution according to our position

21 on this. My personal opinion has no importance. The

22 position of the State is important here and the State of

23 Yugoslavia believes that they cannot extradite their own

24 citizens. So I just wanted to clarify that.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Is there anything else, Mr. Williamson?

Page 178

1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Your Honour, I would just add this very

2 quickly, that in relation to Mr. Sljivancanin, I think

3 that if this was a matter of a technicality of him not

4 being extradited -- that the only bar to him coming to

5 the Tribunal is the fact that he is a Yugoslav citizen,

6 he would still not be in command of the Military Academy

7 training their officer cadets. I think that goes much

8 more to what the intent is of the Federal Republic as

9 opposed to what his citizenship is.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Let us not argue so many things that are

11 outside of the record. It is getting late and so if

12 there is nothing else from the parties and all of the

13 exhibits are in except for this one regarding advising

14 the accused of his rights, then we will adjourn, a

15 decision will be entered with respect to the Defence's

16 motion as to the legality of the arrest in due course.

17 We stand adjourned.

18 (5.50 pm)

19 (Court adjourned)